[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- jyouells2000 jyouells@ wrote:
> >
> >
> > >Maybe  Maharishi isn't fully convinced about the
> > > physiological
> > > correlates either. Otherwise he would get wired up
> > > and provide a
> > > baseline to speed up the research.
> >
> > Physiological correlates would only relate to
> > conditions of the mind. And there are many, many
> > conditions of the mind from gross to very, very
> > subtle.  But I don't know if any "physiological
> > correlate" of Realization will ever be established.
> > Consciousness is "outside" of time and space. The mind
> > can not quantify it; measure it. From the perspective
> > of the mind, pure consciousness is absolutely nothing;
> > emptiness; death; annihilation. Perhaps the best that
> > could be done would be the impact on brain function of
> > that Realization. But would there be a common EEG
> > signature for all brains? I don't know. Right now I
> > doubt it. It would be interesting to take MMY, Amma
> > and SSRS and look at the similarities and
> > disimilarities of their brain functioning. I'm curious
> > what Fred Travis has come up with correlating specific
> > enlightenment experiences with EEG function on the TM
> > path (because I'm sure it would vary depending upon
> > the path/techniques).
> >
> 
> Even if Fred used others, he would have to depend on the grokking
> of MMY, Amma, and SSRS or someone to give the nod to the folks used
> to establish the baseline signature. Have to start somewhere.
> 

Actually, Fred asked for volunteers who were reporting long-term 24/7 
witnessing. He 
interviewed them and found correlations between how they reported their 
internal 
perception of "self" and their EEG and other physiological measures:

http://www.brainresearchinstitute.org/research/ConcCog2004.pdf

> Can't help comparing Earl's question to MMY about why he doesn't
> establish a group, when I think about this  The EEG stuff is
> good PR and grant getting material.

Again, which state? And, while perhaps I misremember the original letter, my 
recollection 
is that Kaplan reported MMY as saying "there is no evidence that what you say 
would 
happen would happen." Kaplan took this to be referring to the ME. I took it to 
be referring 
to financial support from a grateful world...





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > on 8/21/06 10:17 PM, new.morning at
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >> > And it lacks integrity to claim an awakening
> > of ones own defitinion is
> > > >> > in fact TMO style enlightenment.
> > > > 
> > > Maharishi necessarily generalized in describing
> > these states. He has been
> > > heard to say that everyone¹s enlightenment has a
> > different flavor.
> > >
> > 
> > Just as dreaming and sleeping and waking states do.
> > Thre's some pretty clearcut common 
> > features though, found in just about everyone except
> > those with what are usually called 
> > "pathologies."
> > 
> > For instance, during the dreaming state, not only
> > does the thalamus not accept outside input, 
> > but the part of the brain responsible for voluntary
> > movement tends to shut down as well. 
> > When it doesn't, you get sleepwalking, and other
> > abnormal "acting out" of your dreams.
> 
> Actually, sleepwalking occurs in sleep state. What
> you're talking about is REM behavior disorder that
> occurs during dream state where the brain fails to
> block the motor impulses and the muscles fire based on
> the dream content. It's a very serious disorder and
> often found along with narcolepsy where a person
> enters dream state for several minutes directly from
> waking state usually triggered by a strong emotion.   

Thanks for the correction, but the voluntary motor areas are usually shut down 
during 
sleeping/dreaming states except in pathological cases right? That's my main 
point: there 
are sets of very common physiological correlates for the major states of 
consciousness, 
and just about everyone shows them except people with pathological conditions. 
By 
extension, you would expect this kind of thing (common set of correlates) for 
people in 
samadhi if samadhi (TC) really is a major state of consciousness.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning
> >  
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
> > "jim_flanegin"  
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You are getting sucked into the conventional
> > wisdom regarding 
> > > how to 
> > > > > measure stuff like consciousness. 
> > > > 
> > > > i am not getting sucked into  anything. I have
> > not stated my 
> > > views. 
> > > > 
> > > > I am simply pointing out that the TMO and MMY
> > has a cleary 
> > > different
> > > > view than you on the physiological correlates of
> > higher states, and
> > > > what those higher states are -- and their
> > manifest attributes in 
> > > the
> > > > physiology of the liberated one.
> > > 
> > > MMY also? Are you sure of that?
> > > 
> > > > > While each state of awareness is 
> > > > > physiologically distinct, I am not convinced
> > each can be 
> > > measured by 
> > > > > today's scientific instruments.
> > > > 
> > > > Clearly you are not. MMY and the TMO clearly
> > are. 
> > > 
> > > Again, MMY also? You cannot prove that. Her
> > appears to converge 
> > > towards the instruments, but has never stated
> > unequivocally that 
> > > higher states can be measured with today's
> > instruments.
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > Don't know about "today's instruments, but Fred T.
> > seems to believe that there are some 
> > clearcut physical changes that can be measured, and
> > that these changes explain things 
> > pretty nicely. Here's the clearest statement by MMY
> > that I am aware of concerning this 
> > topic . I found it as a quote in one of the early
> > SIMS/IMS publications:
> > 
> > 
> > Spiritual and Material Values
> > 
> > "Every experience has its level of physiology, and
> > so unbounded awareness 
> > has its own level of physiology which can be
> > measured. Every aspect of life 
> > is integrated and connected with every other phase.
> > When we talk of 
> > scientific measurements, it does not take away from
> > the spiritual 
> > experience. We are not responsible for those times
> > when spiritual experience 
> > was thought of as metaphysical. Everything is
> > physical. Consciousness is the 
> > product of the functioning of the brain. Talking of
> > scientific measurements 
> > is no damage to that wholeness of life which is
> > present everywhere and which 
> > begins to be lived when the physiology is taking on
> > a particular form. This 
> > is our understanding about spirituality: it is not
> > on the level of 
> > faith --it is on the level of blood and bone and
> > flesh and activity. It is 
> > measurable."
> > 
> > -Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
> > 
> > 
> > What is fun is that you can actually SEE the
> > possible correlation between MMY's description 
> > "Every aspect of life is integrated and connected
> > with every other phase," and what is 
> > found in standard physiology textbooks. If Fred is
> > correct about the thalamus issue, then 
> > the normal waking/dreamingfunctioning where sensory
> > input of some kind is always going 
> > on has been sidestepped--literally. There are an
> > amzing number of connections in the 
> > brain between virtually all parts of the brain, but
> > the activity of these connections may well 
> > be secondary to sensory input--except during
> > samadhi/TC. Here's a standard diagram 
> > showing a few of the main connections of the parts
> > of the brain, aside from the sense-
> > related ones:
> > 
> > http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus751.html
> > 
> > In samadhi "every aspect of life is integrated and
> > connected with every other phase..."
> > 
> > In CC, this is integrated with normal awareness.
> 
> This is an asinine comment, but it is an extremely
> complex subject! It's not as simple as it first
> appears.
> 

What isn't as simple as it first appears?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
> > Major states of consciousness may have 6 billion
> > different flavors, but there are consistent 
> > features found in just about all 6 billion
> > variations of the themes.
> 
> Has Fred published much on this?

On waking, dreaming and sleeping states? He started his career as a basic sleep 
researcher, BTW, but he apparently only published one sleep paper before 
returning to 
MUM. He did his PhD work at MIU around 1981 I think. BTW, the thalamus stuff is 
unpublished as yet. He's just been looking at all the brain imaging of TMers 
that he can 
find and "sure enough" He and Kieth Wallace proposed the mechanism back in 
paper #9 
in 1999 and he presented his recent investigation on brain imaging at this 
year's Tucson 
Consciousness convention:

http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/news/media/2006_05_travispaper.html



On the TC/CC side of things, he's published quite a bit:

mdeline search keyword: travis f

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

Travis F, Arenander A, DuBois D.Related Articles, Links
Psychological and physiological characteristics of a proposed 
object-referral/self-
referral continuum of self-awareness.
Conscious Cogn. 2004 Jun;13(2):401-20. 
PMID: 15134768 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2:  Travis F, Arenander A.  Related Articles, Links
EEG asymmetry and mindfulness meditation.
Psychosom Med. 2004 Jan-Feb;66(1):147-8; author reply 147-8. No abstract 
available. 
PMID: 14747649 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3:  Travis F, Tecce J, Arenander A, Wallace RK. Related Articles, Links
Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation 
characterize the 
integration of transcendental and waking states.
Biol Psychol. 2002 Nov;61(3):293-319. 
PMID: 12406612 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4:  Travis F.   Related Articles, Links
Autonomic and EEG patterns distinguish transcending from other 
experiences during 
Transcendental Meditation practice.
Int J Psychophysiol. 2001 Aug;42(1):1-9. 
PMID: 11451476 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

5:  Travis F, Olson T, Egenes T, Gupta HK.  Related Articles, Links
Physiological patterns during practice of the Transcendental Meditation 
technique 
compared with patterns while reading Sanskrit and a modern language.
Int J Neurosci. 2001 Jul;109(1-2):71-80. 
PMID: 11699342 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

6:  Travis F, Tecce JJ, Guttman J.  Related Articles, Links
Cortical plasticity, contingent negative variation, and transcendent 
experiences 
during practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique.
Biol Psychol. 2000 Nov;55(1):41-55. 
PMID: 11099807 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

8:  Travis F, Pearson C.Related Articles, Links
Pure consciousness: distinct phenomenological and physiological 
correlates of 
"consciousness itself".
Int J Neurosci. 2000;100(1-4):77-89. 
PMID: 10512549 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

9:  Travis F, Wallace RK.   Related Articles, Links
Autonomic and EEG patterns during eyes-closed rest and transcendental 
meditation 
(TM) practice: the basis for a neural model of TM practice.
Conscious Cogn. 1999 Sep;8(3):302-18. 
PMID: 10487785 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

10: Travis F, Pearson C.Related Articles, Links
Pure Consciousness: Distinct Phenomenological and Physiological 
Correlates of 
"Consciousness Itself"
Int J Neurosci. 1999 Jan;100(1-4):77-89. 
PMID: 10938552 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

13: Mason LI, Alexander CN, Travis FT, Marsh G, Orme-Johnson DW, Gackenbach 
J, 
Mason DC, Rainforth M, Walton KG.   Related Articles, Links
Electrophysiological correlates of higher states of consciousness 
during sleep in 
long-term practitioners of the Transcendental Meditation program.
Sleep. 1997 Feb;20(2):102-10. 
PMID: 9143069 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

14: Travis F, Wallace RK.   Related Articles, Links
Autonomic patterns during respiratory suspensions: possible markers of 
Transcendental Consciousness.
Psychophysiology. 1997 Jan;34(1):39-46. 
PMID: 9009807 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> > >
> > > >> > on 8/21/06 9:26 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > That is what is so funny. You "experience" something. Probably
> > grand.
> > > >> > However you interpret in a particular way that what you
> > experience is
> > > >> > TMO/ MMY BC. Yet you have never discussed your experience with
> > MMY.
> > > >> > Or even with someone, or many, from what i can tell, who have.
> > > >
> > > Is this essential? As a friend of mine put it, ³you¹re the only
> > one at your
> > > graduation.² When your experience is mature and genuine, you
> > don¹t need
> > > anyone¹s confirmation. I observe that people in higher states use
> > MMY¹s
> > > terminology when it most effectively expresses what they are
trying to
> > say,
> > > and are equally comfortable quoting Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharishi,
> > Eckhart
> > > Tolle, Donald Duck, or making up something new if that more
> > effectively
> > > suits their purpose.
> > >
> > 
> >Maybe  Maharishi isn't fully convinced about the physiological
> > correlates either. Otherwise he would get wired up and provide a
> > baseline to speed up the research.  Maybe that's the same reason there
> > isn't a large established pundit or flying group... Not sure if it
will
> > work.
> 
> What state of consciousness would the resarchers be measuring? One
test-subject does 
> not a "baseline" make.
>

True enough, from either way you look at it. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
> > Exactly the map is different than the territory. The
> > barest of
> > information, enough to quide and inspire. How else
> > can the non-dual
> > descriptions be reconciled with what MMY says. He
> > left much out by
> > necessity, and for other reasons, and many still
> > accept the map as the
> > territory. Many don't anymore.
>
> Another point to add is that the map was initially
> comprehanded in waking state with all the implicit
> waking state limitations that one is necessarily
> oblivious to in waking state. Then there is a certain
> experience of Realization (stable or not) and the
> waking state map fits to a certain extent but not
> perfectly. Other traditions/gurus can offer conceptual
> tools that help make sense out of the experience.
> Buddha's and Adi Shankara's enlightenment are the
> same, but they articulate it in different ways. In my
> own experience I have found Buddha, initially, and
> later Ramana Maharishi (and Gangaji) extremely helpful
> in understanding what's going on. SSRS is there to
> carrot and stick me!
>

The same folks for me along with Nasargardatta, Wilber, Merrill-Wolfe,
Atma-Boda (Shankara) and others. Then I went back and listened to
all of Maharishi's audio tapes (that I had in the Blue Cases) to see if
he
covered the   dualistic <-> nondual misconceptions. He did, but only
briefly.


JohnY







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- jyouells2000 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> >Maybe  Maharishi isn't fully convinced about the
> > physiological
> > correlates either. Otherwise he would get wired up
> > and provide a
> > baseline to speed up the research.  
> 
> Physiological correlates would only relate to
> conditions of the mind. And there are many, many
> conditions of the mind from gross to very, very
> subtle.  But I don't know if any "physiological
> correlate" of Realization will ever be established.
> Consciousness is "outside" of time and space. The mind
> can not quantify it; measure it. From the perspective
> of the mind, pure consciousness is absolutely nothing;
> emptiness; death; annihilation. Perhaps the best that
> could be done would be the impact on brain function of
> that Realization. But would there be a common EEG
> signature for all brains? I don't know. Right now I
> doubt it. It would be interesting to take MMY, Amma
> and SSRS and look at the similarities and
> disimilarities of their brain functioning. I'm curious
> what Fred Travis has come up with correlating specific
> enlightenment experiences with EEG function on the TM
> path (because I'm sure it would vary depending upon
> the path/techniques). 
> 

Missed my whole thalamus spiel, eh? The EEG comes from the state of 
consciousness, not 
the other way around. With samadhi, the brain is left alert, but no longer 
processing 
sensory data, external or even internal. That leads to a "restful-alert"  
[alpha wave] 
coherent EEG signature in cerain parts of the brain. If you could somehow 
induce the same 
EEG signature, you might not have the same state of consciousness.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > on 8/21/06 10:09 PM, new.morning at
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > 
> > >  > that they do not
> > >  > bubble.
> > > 
> > I believe the above statement is at the heart of all
> > your questioning.
> 
> Agree. Akasha seems, and I could be wrong, that nobody
> is Realized. Is that right?


"For all have fallen short of the Glory of God. There is noone perfect. Not 
one."








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
> >Maybe  Maharishi isn't fully convinced about the
> > physiological
> > correlates either. Otherwise he would get wired up
> > and provide a
> > baseline to speed up the research.
>
> Physiological correlates would only relate to
> conditions of the mind. And there are many, many
> conditions of the mind from gross to very, very
> subtle.  But I don't know if any "physiological
> correlate" of Realization will ever be established.
> Consciousness is "outside" of time and space. The mind
> can not quantify it; measure it. From the perspective
> of the mind, pure consciousness is absolutely nothing;
> emptiness; death; annihilation. Perhaps the best that
> could be done would be the impact on brain function of
> that Realization. But would there be a common EEG
> signature for all brains? I don't know. Right now I
> doubt it. It would be interesting to take MMY, Amma
> and SSRS and look at the similarities and
> disimilarities of their brain functioning. I'm curious
> what Fred Travis has come up with correlating specific
> enlightenment experiences with EEG function on the TM
> path (because I'm sure it would vary depending upon
> the path/techniques).
>

Even if Fred used others, he would have to depend on the grokking
of MMY, Amma, and SSRS or someone to give the nod to the folks used
to establish the baseline signature. Have to start somewhere.

Can't help comparing Earl's question to MMY about why he doesn't
establish a group, when I think about this  The EEG stuff is
good PR and grant getting material.

JohnY








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> > on 8/21/06 8:41 PM, Alex Stanley at j_alexander_stanley@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is a
> > > measurable, dualistic phenomenon?
> > > 
> > They assume it is. That assumption is consistent with MMY¹s teaching.
> > They fervently want to quantify it and prove TM¹s superiority in 
> > developing it.
> 
> It's not really that they think being awake/enlightened
> is a measurable, dualistic phenomenon, but rather that
> the state has measurable physiological *correlates*.
> That's a significant distinction.
>


Brain physiology is consciousness's way of interacting with the world. Samadhi 
is the state 
where consciousness interacts with itself without paying attention to the 
outside world. 
The physical connections and other tissues of the brain are perhaps only one 
tiny portion 
of the iceberg of consciousness, but they're a mighty important tiny portion, 
it seems.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> > >> > on 8/21/06 9:26 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > That is what is so funny. You "experience" something. Probably
> grand.
> > >> > However you interpret in a particular way that what you
> experience is
> > >> > TMO/ MMY BC. Yet you have never discussed your experience with
> MMY.
> > >> > Or even with someone, or many, from what i can tell, who have.
> > >
> > Is this essential? As a friend of mine put it, ³you¹re the only
> one at your
> > graduation.² When your experience is mature and genuine, you
> don¹t need
> > anyone¹s confirmation. I observe that people in higher states use
> MMY¹s
> > terminology when it most effectively expresses what they are trying to
> say,
> > and are equally comfortable quoting Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharishi,
> Eckhart
> > Tolle, Donald Duck, or making up something new if that more
> effectively
> > suits their purpose.
> >
> 
>Maybe  Maharishi isn't fully convinced about the physiological
> correlates either. Otherwise he would get wired up and provide a
> baseline to speed up the research.  Maybe that's the same reason there
> isn't a large established pundit or flying group... Not sure if it will
> work.

What state of consciousness would the resarchers be measuring? One test-subject 
does 
not a "baseline" make.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Peter]

--- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > on 8/21/06 10:17 PM, new.morning at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > 
> > >> > And it lacks integrity to claim an awakening
> of ones own defitinion is
> > >> > in fact TMO style enlightenment.
> > > 
> > Maharishi necessarily generalized in describing
> these states. He has been
> > heard to say that everyone¹s enlightenment has a
> different flavor.
> >
> 
> Just as dreaming and sleeping and waking states do.
> Thre's some pretty clearcut common 
> features though, found in just about everyone except
> those with what are usually called 
> "pathologies."
> 
> For instance, during the dreaming state, not only
> does the thalamus not accept outside input, 
> but the part of the brain responsible for voluntary
> movement tends to shut down as well. 
> When it doesn't, you get sleepwalking, and other
> abnormal "acting out" of your dreams.

Actually, sleepwalking occurs in sleep state. What
you're talking about is REM behavior disorder that
occurs during dream state where the brain fails to
block the motor impulses and the muscles fire based on
the dream content. It's a very serious disorder and
often found along with narcolepsy where a person
enters dream state for several minutes directly from
waking state usually triggered by a strong emotion.   




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Peter]

--- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning
>  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
> "jim_flanegin"  
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You are getting sucked into the conventional
> wisdom regarding 
> > how to 
> > > > measure stuff like consciousness. 
> > > 
> > > i am not getting sucked into  anything. I have
> not stated my 
> > views. 
> > > 
> > > I am simply pointing out that the TMO and MMY
> has a cleary 
> > different
> > > view than you on the physiological correlates of
> higher states, and
> > > what those higher states are -- and their
> manifest attributes in 
> > the
> > > physiology of the liberated one.
> > 
> > MMY also? Are you sure of that?
> > 
> > > > While each state of awareness is 
> > > > physiologically distinct, I am not convinced
> each can be 
> > measured by 
> > > > today's scientific instruments.
> > > 
> > > Clearly you are not. MMY and the TMO clearly
> are. 
> > 
> > Again, MMY also? You cannot prove that. Her
> appears to converge 
> > towards the instruments, but has never stated
> unequivocally that 
> > higher states can be measured with today's
> instruments.
> > 
> > 
> 
> Don't know about "today's instruments, but Fred T.
> seems to believe that there are some 
> clearcut physical changes that can be measured, and
> that these changes explain things 
> pretty nicely. Here's the clearest statement by MMY
> that I am aware of concerning this 
> topic . I found it as a quote in one of the early
> SIMS/IMS publications:
> 
> 
> Spiritual and Material Values
> 
> "Every experience has its level of physiology, and
> so unbounded awareness 
> has its own level of physiology which can be
> measured. Every aspect of life 
> is integrated and connected with every other phase.
> When we talk of 
> scientific measurements, it does not take away from
> the spiritual 
> experience. We are not responsible for those times
> when spiritual experience 
> was thought of as metaphysical. Everything is
> physical. Consciousness is the 
> product of the functioning of the brain. Talking of
> scientific measurements 
> is no damage to that wholeness of life which is
> present everywhere and which 
> begins to be lived when the physiology is taking on
> a particular form. This 
> is our understanding about spirituality: it is not
> on the level of 
> faith --it is on the level of blood and bone and
> flesh and activity. It is 
> measurable."
> 
> -Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
> 
> 
> What is fun is that you can actually SEE the
> possible correlation between MMY's description 
> "Every aspect of life is integrated and connected
> with every other phase," and what is 
> found in standard physiology textbooks. If Fred is
> correct about the thalamus issue, then 
> the normal waking/dreamingfunctioning where sensory
> input of some kind is always going 
> on has been sidestepped--literally. There are an
> amzing number of connections in the 
> brain between virtually all parts of the brain, but
> the activity of these connections may well 
> be secondary to sensory input--except during
> samadhi/TC. Here's a standard diagram 
> showing a few of the main connections of the parts
> of the brain, aside from the sense-
> related ones:
> 
> http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus751.html
> 
> In samadhi "every aspect of life is integrated and
> connected with every other phase..."
> 
> In CC, this is integrated with normal awareness.

This is an asinine comment, but it is an extremely
complex subject! It's not as simple as it first
appears.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Peter]

--- jyouells2000 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> Exactly the map is different than the territory. The
> barest of
> information, enough to quide and inspire. How else
> can the non-dual
> descriptions be reconciled with what MMY says. He
> left much out by
> necessity, and for other reasons, and many still
> accept the map as the
> territory. Many don't anymore.

Another point to add is that the map was initially
comprehanded in waking state with all the implicit
waking state limitations that one is necessarily
oblivious to in waking state. Then there is a certain
experience of Realization (stable or not) and the
waking state map fits to a certain extent but not
perfectly. Other traditions/gurus can offer conceptual
tools that help make sense out of the experience.
Buddha's and Adi Shankara's enlightenment are the
same, but they articulate it in different ways. In my
own experience I have found Buddha, initially, and
later Ramana Maharishi (and Gangaji) extremely helpful
in understanding what's going on. SSRS is there to
carrot and stick me!




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Peter]

--- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer
>  wrote:
> > >
> > > on 8/21/06 8:48 PM, new.morning at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >> > That would not be consistent with Tom being
> in any of those 
> > states.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > But if you said the opposite, that would
> not  be consistent 
> > with Jim
> > > >> > being in any of thoset states.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > See what I mean -- its interesting how
> people have different
> > > >> > experiences and different interpretation of
> those experiences.
> > > > 
> > > Because they are (drum roll please...) DIFFERENT
> PEOPLE! 6 billion 
> > flavors.
> > >
> > Ta-Ding!
> >
> 
> Major states of consciousness may have 6 billion
> different flavors, but there are consistent 
> features found in just about all 6 billion
> variations of the themes.

Has Fred published much on this?



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 10:17 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> >> > And it lacks integrity to claim an awakening of ones own defitinion is
> >> > in fact TMO style enlightenment.
> > 
> Maharishi necessarily generalized in describing these states. He has been
> heard to say that everyone¹s enlightenment has a different flavor.
>

Just as dreaming and sleeping and waking states do. Thre's some pretty clearcut 
common 
features though, found in just about everyone except those with what are 
usually called 
"pathologies."

For instance, during the dreaming state, not only does the thalamus not accept 
outside input, 
but the part of the brain responsible for voluntary movement tends to shut down 
as well. 
When it doesn't, you get sleepwalking, and other abnormal "acting out" of your 
dreams.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
> wrote:
> > >
> > > You are getting sucked into the conventional wisdom regarding 
> how to 
> > > measure stuff like consciousness. 
> > 
> > i am not getting sucked into  anything. I have not stated my 
> views. 
> > 
> > I am simply pointing out that the TMO and MMY has a cleary 
> different
> > view than you on the physiological correlates of higher states, and
> > what those higher states are -- and their manifest attributes in 
> the
> > physiology of the liberated one.
> 
> MMY also? Are you sure of that?
> 
> > > While each state of awareness is 
> > > physiologically distinct, I am not convinced each can be 
> measured by 
> > > today's scientific instruments.
> > 
> > Clearly you are not. MMY and the TMO clearly are. 
> 
> Again, MMY also? You cannot prove that. Her appears to converge 
> towards the instruments, but has never stated unequivocally that 
> higher states can be measured with today's instruments.
> 
> 

Don't know about "today's instruments, but Fred T. seems to believe that there 
are some 
clearcut physical changes that can be measured, and that these changes explain 
things 
pretty nicely. Here's the clearest statement by MMY that I am aware of 
concerning this 
topic . I found it as a quote in one of the early SIMS/IMS publications:


Spiritual and Material Values

"Every experience has its level of physiology, and so unbounded awareness 
has its own level of physiology which can be measured. Every aspect of life 
is integrated and connected with every other phase. When we talk of 
scientific measurements, it does not take away from the spiritual 
experience. We are not responsible for those times when spiritual experience 
was thought of as metaphysical. Everything is physical. Consciousness is the 
product of the functioning of the brain. Talking of scientific measurements 
is no damage to that wholeness of life which is present everywhere and which 
begins to be lived when the physiology is taking on a particular form. This 
is our understanding about spirituality: it is not on the level of 
faith --it is on the level of blood and bone and flesh and activity. It is 
measurable."

-Maharishi Mahesh Yogi


What is fun is that you can actually SEE the possible correlation between MMY's 
description 
"Every aspect of life is integrated and connected with every other phase," and 
what is 
found in standard physiology textbooks. If Fred is correct about the thalamus 
issue, then 
the normal waking/dreamingfunctioning where sensory input of some kind is 
always going 
on has been sidestepped--literally. There are an amzing number of connections 
in the 
brain between virtually all parts of the brain, but the activity of these 
connections may well 
be secondary to sensory input--except during samadhi/TC. Here's a standard 
diagram 
showing a few of the main connections of the parts of the brain, aside from the 
sense-
related ones:

http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus751.html

In samadhi "every aspect of life is integrated and connected with every other 
phase..."

In CC, this is integrated with normal awareness.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> > on 8/21/06 8:48 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > 
> > >> > That would not be consistent with Tom being in any of those 
> states.
> > >> > 
> > >> > But if you said the opposite, that would not  be consistent 
> with Jim
> > >> > being in any of thoset states.
> > >> > 
> > >> > See what I mean -- its interesting how people have different
> > >> > experiences and different interpretation of those experiences.
> > > 
> > Because they are (drum roll please...) DIFFERENT PEOPLE! 6 billion 
> flavors.
> >
> Ta-Ding!
>

Major states of consciousness may have 6 billion different flavors, but there 
are consistent 
features found in just about all 6 billion variations of the themes.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Peter]

--- jyouells2000 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


>Maybe  Maharishi isn't fully convinced about the
> physiological
> correlates either. Otherwise he would get wired up
> and provide a
> baseline to speed up the research.  

Physiological correlates would only relate to
conditions of the mind. And there are many, many
conditions of the mind from gross to very, very
subtle.  But I don't know if any "physiological
correlate" of Realization will ever be established.
Consciousness is "outside" of time and space. The mind
can not quantify it; measure it. From the perspective
of the mind, pure consciousness is absolutely nothing;
emptiness; death; annihilation. Perhaps the best that
could be done would be the impact on brain function of
that Realization. But would there be a common EEG
signature for all brains? I don't know. Right now I
doubt it. It would be interesting to take MMY, Amma
and SSRS and look at the similarities and
disimilarities of their brain functioning. I'm curious
what Fred Travis has come up with correlating specific
enlightenment experiences with EEG function on the TM
path (because I'm sure it would vary depending upon
the path/techniques). 






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Peter]

--- Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> on 8/21/06 10:09 PM, new.morning at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> >  that they do not
> >  bubble.
> > 
> I believe the above statement is at the heart of all
> your questioning.

Agree. Akasha seems, and I could be wrong, that nobody
is Realized. Is that right?

> 
> 


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Peter]

--- chaim_laib <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > on 8/21/06 4:41 PM, curtisdeltablues at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > >> > I would be very interested to hear accounts
> of people telling
> MMY they
> > >> > were living in higher states of
> consciousness.  Does MMY claim that
> > >> > King Tony is enlightened?
> > > 
> > Pretty much. He said he investigated and found
> that every cell in
> his body
> > was permeated with Pure Consciousness. I welcome a
> more accurate
> rendition
> > of that quote. That¹s my recollection.
> >
> 
> A couple of immediate thoughts on the above.
> 
> 1) Isn't the basis of all relative reality Pure
> Concsiousness, so, in
> effect every cell of everyone's body is permated
> with Pure Consciousness?

Knowledge is different in different states of
consciousness. From one perspective every cell is
permiated with PC, but from another it is not. We make
a mistake to assume that BC is real and waking state
is not. There's different dharma for each state.

> 2) When a man in (supposed) UC or BC, investigates
> anything, is it
> possible to see anything as other than Pure
> Consciousness?

You'll have to ask that to someone in BC. But then
again, someone in BC doesn't bump into walls.

> 
> CL  
> 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> No TMO/MMY enlightenment afer MMY passes then? 

I assume Raja Tony and other rajas will be anointed as appropriate
confirmers of TMO/MMY style of enlightenment.

>Tougher for both
> parties to get to the mic then. 

Not for Jim. Apparently. :)







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 11:20 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> >> > Actually, I have few questions. My comments have been more
rhetorical
> >> >  questions -- stemming from what appears to be weak excuses for not
> >> > getting on the mic. When so much can be gained. for the mic'er.
For MMY.
> > 
> Isn¹t it a bit inappropriate to have such strong opinions about what
other
> people should or shouldn¹t do?


I suppose it is. Who is expresing such?

Oh. I am guessing you somehow feel I am. Again, you are either missing
or distorting what I have said. Try giving several of the relevant
posts  a second read. Try just reading my comments above again. And
not reading what you assume up front I must be saying. Simply read my
words witout prejudice. 

>I don¹t think
> their reluctance to get on the mic proves or implies anything. It¹s
simply
> the choice they have made so far, and says nothing about their level of
> consciousness.

Ah what it implies. Well, it does imply something more to me than to
you. For someone those who proclaim MMY/TMO BC. For those  who have
potentially unique new chapter ecperiences of a community of BCers. 
In not speaking, in not being willing to share great advances in group
consciousness amongs  MMY and their "peers" -- that implies a lot to
me. On this we clearly differ. 













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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> > on 8/21/06 10:31 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > > For "your own" defined enlightenment, or some other teachers, sure.
> > > However, for  MMY's enlightenemt, you need his confirmation.
> > > 
> > So what if you attain ³MMY¹s enlightenment² yet he¹s not there to
> confirm
> > it? Is your attainment invalid?
> 
> 
> Your question does not follow from anything I have said. 
> 
> Experience is experience.
> 
> However to proclaim MMY/TMO BC or other TMO/MMY style of enlightenment
> without his confirmation is delusion or lack of integrity. 
> 
> You yourself mentioned the trap of misinterpreating some form of
> awakening as being a much grander awakening. Given the extensive
> history of this in the TMO, and given MMY has been so picky and
> specific about confirmations of enlightenemnt, why does this premise
> appear to be an issue or question to you: To proclaim MMY/TMO BC or
> other TMO/MMY style of enlightenment without his confirmation is
> delusion or lack of integrity. 
> 
> To proclaim ones own definition of enlightenement, or ones friend's,
> is fine. Or for example, Alex's proclamation of his waking down level
> I awakening (excuse my lack of preciseness of terms) is great. 
> 
> My sole point is that these are not MMY/TMO styles of enlightenment.
> If you want to go to the mic, and have MMY confirm these as MMY/TMO BC
> or other MMY/TMO  enlightenment, then great. Then proclaim away. Until
>  then, its some other awakening.  
> 
> All yours and others apparent desire to proclaim their awakenings as
> the same as MMY/TMO enlightenment is quite odd. Just pronounce what
> ever awakening one wants. Other than those that have requirements that
> one doesn't meet.
>

No TMO/MMY enlightenment afer MMY passes then? Tougher for both
parties to get to the mic then. 

JohnY






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 10:31 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > For "your own" defined enlightenment, or some other teachers, sure.
> > However, for  MMY's enlightenemt, you need his confirmation.
> > 
> So what if you attain ³MMY¹s enlightenment² yet he¹s not there to
confirm
> it? Is your attainment invalid?


Your question does not follow from anything I have said. 

Experience is experience.

However to proclaim MMY/TMO BC or other TMO/MMY style of enlightenment
without his confirmation is delusion or lack of integrity. 

You yourself mentioned the trap of misinterpreating some form of
awakening as being a much grander awakening. Given the extensive
history of this in the TMO, and given MMY has been so picky and
specific about confirmations of enlightenemnt, why does this premise
appear to be an issue or question to you: To proclaim MMY/TMO BC or
other TMO/MMY style of enlightenment without his confirmation is
delusion or lack of integrity. 

To proclaim ones own definition of enlightenement, or ones friend's,
is fine. Or for example, Alex's proclamation of his waking down level
I awakening (excuse my lack of preciseness of terms) is great. 

My sole point is that these are not MMY/TMO styles of enlightenment.
If you want to go to the mic, and have MMY confirm these as MMY/TMO BC
or other MMY/TMO  enlightenment, then great. Then proclaim away. Until
 then, its some other awakening.  

All yours and others apparent desire to proclaim their awakenings as
the same as MMY/TMO enlightenment is quite odd. Just pronounce what
ever awakening one wants. Other than those that have requirements that
one doesn't meet.


  










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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Rick Archer]

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences





on 8/21/06 11:20 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Actually, I have few questions. My comments have been more rhetorical
>  questions -- stemming from what appears to be weak excuses for not
> getting on the mic. When so much can be gained. for the mic'er. For MMY. 

Isn’t it a bit inappropriate to have such strong opinions about what other people should or shouldn’t do? Isn’t that their business? I don’t think their reluctance to get on the mic proves or implies anything. It’s simply the choice they have made so far, and says nothing about their level of consciousness. 

__._,_.___





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Rick Archer]

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences





on 8/21/06 11:22 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com  
> , Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>> on 8/21/06 10:17 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>>   wrote:
>>> 
> And it lacks integrity to claim an awakening of ones own
> defitinion is
> in fact TMO style enlightenment.
>>> 
>> Maharishi necessarily generalized in describing these states. He has
> been
>> heard to say that everyone’s enlightenment has a different flavor.
>> 
> 
> So? 
> 
> You are missing or distorting the point of the original post. 

Probably both. What was it again?


__._,_.___





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[shempmcgurk]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> > on 8/21/06 9:26 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > That is what is so funny. You "experience" something. 
Probably grand.
> >> > However you interpret in a particular way that what you 
experience is
> >> > TMO/ MMY BC. Yet you have never discussed your experience 
with MMY.
> >> > Or even with someone, or many, from what i can tell, who have.
> > 
> Is this essential? As a friend of mine put it, ³you¹re the only 
one at your
> graduation.² When your experience is mature and genuine, you don¹t 
need
> anyone¹s confirmation.



Whenever I've had a wonderful "spiritual" experience I never needed 
anyone's confirmation.  The experience in and of itself was the 
knowledge, confirmation and experience...all rolled into one.

Of course, I have always had a great urge after having one of these 
experiences to share it with others and to talk about it, but the 
experience speaks for itself.




> I observe that people in higher states use MMY¹s
> terminology when it most effectively expresses what they are 
trying to say,
> and are equally comfortable quoting Nisargadatta, Ramana 
Maharishi, Eckhart
> Tolle, Donald Duck, or making up something new if that more 
effectively
> suits their purpose.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 10:17 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> >> > And it lacks integrity to claim an awakening of ones own
defitinion is
> >> > in fact TMO style enlightenment.
> > 
> Maharishi necessarily generalized in describing these states. He has
been
> heard to say that everyone¹s enlightenment has a different flavor.
>

So? 

You are missing or distorting the point of the original post. 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 10:09 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> >  >  > 
> I believe the above statement is at the heart of all your questioning.
>
and?

The above was part of a conditional statement --if this then that -- 
 not an opinion. 

does that make the possibility invalid?

valid?

a good thing for them to get confirmed?

a bad thing for them to get confirmed?

Actually, I have few questions. My comments have been more rhetorical
 questions -- stemming from what appears to be weak excuses for not
getting on the mic. When so much can be gained. for the mic'er. For MMY. 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[chaim_laib]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 4:41 PM, curtisdeltablues at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >> > I would be very interested to hear accounts of people telling
MMY they
> >> > were living in higher states of consciousness.  Does MMY claim that
> >> > King Tony is enlightened?
> > 
> Pretty much. He said he investigated and found that every cell in
his body
> was permeated with Pure Consciousness. I welcome a more accurate
rendition
> of that quote. That¹s my recollection.
>

A couple of immediate thoughts on the above.

1) Isn't the basis of all relative reality Pure Concsiousness, so, in
effect every cell of everyone's body is permated with Pure Consciousness?

2) When a man in (supposed) UC or BC, investigates anything, is it
possible to see anything as other than Pure Consciousness?

CL  






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> > on 8/21/06 9:26 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> >> >
> >> > That is what is so funny. You "experience" something. Probably
grand.
> >> > However you interpret in a particular way that what you
experience is
> >> > TMO/ MMY BC. Yet you have never discussed your experience with
MMY.
> >> > Or even with someone, or many, from what i can tell, who have.
> >
> Is this essential? As a friend of mine put it, ³you¹re the only
one at your
> graduation.² When your experience is mature and genuine, you
don¹t need
> anyone¹s confirmation. I observe that people in higher states use
MMY¹s
> terminology when it most effectively expresses what they are trying to
say,
> and are equally comfortable quoting Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharishi,
Eckhart
> Tolle, Donald Duck, or making up something new if that more
effectively
> suits their purpose.
>

   Maybe  Maharishi isn't fully convinced about the physiological
correlates either. Otherwise he would get wired up and provide a
baseline to speed up the research.  Maybe that's the same reason there
isn't a large established pundit or flying group... Not sure if it will
work.


JohnY







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> There is also the issue that there
> are
> > many stages of awakening, and people may mistake the stage they are
> > experiencing for a more advanced one whose description seems to fit
> what
> > they are experiencing.

Yes, that may be a critical issue. The problem of (mis)interpreation
of experiences. It is the history of the TMO, that many have made such
mistakes. Thats the value of a teacher to verify and validate -- not
depending on the students (perhaps often distored) interpretations.  

Its also the value in making up ones own criteria for enlightenment as 
Rory has said he did. One can adjust the target to fit where the arrow
lands. Have fun and glorious interpretations at every step. All that
is good fun. But subject to imagination. As JH said, M is not
impressed with imaginations for MMY/TMO style enlightenment.

All pointing to the need to have MMY confirm ones interpretation of
enlightenment if they choose to proclaim MMY/TMO style enlightenment. 

On the other hand, if they are making up or getting good encouragement
and fancy words from others at each step, then no need for
confirmation. Just drift in the glorious realms of imagination and
hyperbole. Its fun. Its amusing.












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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Rick Archer]

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences





on 8/21/06 10:31 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

For "your own" defined enlightenment, or some other teachers, sure.
However, for  MMY's enlightenemt, you need his confirmation. 

So what if you attain “MMY’s enlightenment” yet he’s not there to confirm it? Is your attainment invalid?


__._,_.___





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 8:41 PM, Alex Stanley at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is a
> > measurable, dualistic phenomenon?
> > 
> They assume it is. That assumption is consistent with MMY¹s teaching.
> They fervently want to quantify it and prove TM¹s superiority in 
> developing it.

It's not really that they think being awake/enlightened
is a measurable, dualistic phenomenon, but rather that
the state has measurable physiological *correlates*.
That's a significant distinction.









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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Rick Archer]

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences





on 8/21/06 10:17 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> And it lacks integrity to claim an awakening of ones own defitinion is
> in fact TMO style enlightenment.

Maharishi necessarily generalized in describing these states. He has been heard to say that everyone’s enlightenment has a different flavor.

__._,_.___





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Rick Archer]

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences





on 8/21/06 10:09 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




I believe the above statement is at the heart of all your questioning.


__._,_.___





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  
> wrote:
> >
> > Thats fine, if they are not proclaiming or implyinmg MMY style
> > enlightenment without his confirmation.
> >
> You are beginning to lose your temper. Won't help at all. You just 
> become a loser.


hahaha -- is that knowledge from your special powers steming from your
enlightenment? I'd keep that warranty card for those speical powers
you bought, or more appropriately, got sold. They are defective. 

Perhaps thats why M insists on clear and repeatable sidhis to validate
MMY/TMO style enlightenment. It is a clear measure to weed out those
with hefty imaginations. 

 












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[FairfieldLife] Re: Mr. Angry Face

[Alex Stanley]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://www.matthewroddy.com/mental/angry_face.htm

That is one of the freakiest optical illusions I've ever seen.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 4:08 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> >> 
> >> > , "jyouells2000" jyouells@ wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> >>> 
> >>> >> , Rick Archer  wrote:
> >>> >> The powers that be (and some
> >>> >> people on
>  >>> this list) get very nervous when someone claims to have
reached
> >> > the  goal.
> >> >
> >> > I must have missed a lot of posts? Who gets nervous when someone
> >> > claims to have reached the  goal? I laugh a bit that "someone"
has
> >> > strived and strived and reached a "goal". Someonemay have
achieved
> >> > something. But that is not THAT. No "individual" gets enlightened
and
> >> > there is no goal that the idividual ever reaches. Artifiacts of
> >> > language aside, this type of "ME"-focussed "my enlightenmnet"
language
> >> > appears to so predominatlye in some posts -- so it is notewrothy
at
> >> > times, if not amusing.
> >
> Language is tricky. I think people like Peter, Jim F., Tom T. and
others
> understand your point perfectly well, but statements about subjective
> experience become very cumbersome without the use of the subjective
personal
> pronoun. And when that pronoun is used, or when they express a thought
or
> opinion about some other topic as an individual (which is the only
element
> in the equation that can have thoughts or opinions), it appears to me
that
> you often try to nail them for being phonies.
> >
> >> > The major point I have seen raised over the years, and i have
raised
> >> > it myself, is that the "enlightenment" some proclaim, while
probably a
> >> > good and glorious thing, per the attributes cited, has little to
do
> >> > with what MMY has laid out as what he means by the term
enlightenment.
> >
> In some cases it may not, but in many cases it very well may be
exactly what
> he was talking about, but sound different when a person tries to
describe it
> in their own terms. Maharishi could only offer a road map, and a road
map,
> like words, is a far cry from the territory it represents. Start
driving
> around that territory and you might be surprised how differently it
appears
> from the concept the map gave you. There is also the issue that there
are
> many stages of awakening, and people may mistake the stage they are
> experiencing for a more advanced one whose description seems to fit
what
> they are experiencing.
> >

Exactly the map is different than the territory. The barest of
information, enough to quide and inspire. How else can the non-dual
descriptions be reconciled with what MMY says. He left much out by
necessity, and for other reasons, and many still accept the map as the
territory. Many don't anymore.

JohnY






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> > >> > on 8/21/06 9:26 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
> > >> > 
> > >> > That is what is so funny. You "experience" something. 
Probably
> grand.
> > >> > However you interpret in a particular way that what you
> experience is
> > >> > TMO/ MMY BC. Yet you have never discussed your experience 
with MMY.
> > >> > Or even with someone, or many, from what i can tell, who 
have.
> > > 
> 
> > Is this essential? 
> 
> Actually, to authentically claim a TMO MMY style of enlightenment, 
yes
> , I think you need MMY's confirmation. Since as we both witnessed
> (hehe) so many claimants -- so many non-confirmations by MMY over 
the
> years.
> 
> This does not mean MMY is necessarily an authority on 
enlightenment,
> or all styles of awakening. It simply acknowledges that he IS the
> authority on what he classifies as TMO style enlightenment. And he 
is
> very specific and "picky".  
> 
>   
> >As a friend of mine put it, ³you¹re the only one at your
> > graduation.
> 
> If you are still there to graduate, its a phony graduation.
> 
> ² When your experience is mature and genuine, you don¹t need
> > anyone¹s confirmation.
> 
> For "your own" defined enlightenment, or some other teachers, sure.
> However, for  MMY's enlightenemt, you need his confirmation. 
> 
> Thus the question, why are all FF SSers so shy, so lacking in 
cosmic
> testosterone, that they are so afraid of ridicule (and who exactly
> gets ridiculed after liberation?) that they are afraid of 
discussing
> their experiences and interpretations of them with MMY? Someting
> smells fishy amd its not JonBennet.
> 
>  I observe that people in higher states use MMY¹s
> > terminology when it most effectively expresses what they are 
trying
> to say,
> > and are equally comfortable quoting Nisargadatta, Ramana 
Maharishi,
> Eckhart
> > Tolle, Donald Duck, or making up something new if that more 
effectively
> > suits their purpose.
> 
> Thats fine, if they are not proclaiming or implyinmg MMY style
> enlightenment without his confirmation.
>
You are beginning to lose your temper. Won't help at all. You just 
become a loser.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> > on 8/21/06 8:48 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
> > > 
> > >> > That would not be consistent with Tom being in any of those 
states.
> > >> > 
> > >> > But if you said the opposite, that would not  be consistent
> with Jim
> > >> > being in any of thoset states.
> > >> > 
> > >> > See what I mean -- its interesting how people have different
> > >> > experiences and different interpretation of those 
experiences.
> > > 
> > Because they are (drum roll please...) DIFFERENT PEOPLE! 6 
billion
> flavors.
> 
> 
> There are if you want to make up your own enlightenment system -- 
as
> some in FF SS have done apparently. 
> 
> MMY does not say 6 billion flavors of radically different, quite 
> contradictory interpretations of enlightenement. Thats a TT thing/
> dogma. So there is TT / FF SS enlightenment and MMY enlightenment. 
Who
> knows which is "superior" (haha that line always makes me laugh). 
> 
> My sole point, DRUM ROLL, is they are different. 
> 
> And it lacks integrity to claim an awakening of ones own 
defitinion is
> in fact TMO style enlightenment.
>
MMY style enlightenment.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 8:48 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> >> > That would not be consistent with Tom being in any of those 
states.
> >> > 
> >> > But if you said the opposite, that would not  be consistent 
with Jim
> >> > being in any of thoset states.
> >> > 
> >> > See what I mean -- its interesting how people have different
> >> > experiences and different interpretation of those experiences.
> > 
> Because they are (drum roll please...) DIFFERENT PEOPLE! 6 billion 
flavors.
>
Ta-Ding!






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> > on 8/21/06 7:02 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
> > > 
> > >> > It sounds like the Dome group and M could benefit greatly by
> hearing
> > >> > the direct experience and exposition of a state, per 
spraigs quote,
> > >> > that M cannot even cognize (aka "imagine" per the context, 
IMO.)
> > > 
> > I don¹t think any of them are claiming to know about such a 
state.
> Again,
> > your implication is that these people are full of hot air.
> 
> 
> No, my implication is not that my opinion is they are full of
> hot air. Besides my opinion is irrelevant. But these folks, some, 
are
> claiming MMY-style BC. Why are they not rejoicing in discussing it
> with MMY?
> 
> And if there is in FF, a community of BCers, and if a community of
> BCers really is  beyond MMY's experience (per spraigs quote) and
> ability to imagine in detail, then why would the FF SSers not share
> this with MMY? It seems sad if not mean to not  share it.
> 
> I heard 4th hand that some in the FF SS feel that they are possibly
> the most enligteneed group in the world. Why not share these
> end-of-10th mandala experiences with MMY? It is just mid bobggling
> that they would not share.
> 
> unless: 
> 
> they dont respect MMY's insights -- in which case why do they 
bother
> proclaiming MMY-style BC? Or go to his Domes?
> 
> or there is an element of imagination in their SS that they do not
> want to expose to MMY. And have him deflate their bubble. 
> 
> If it is a bubble. The above are conditional statements and logical
> inferences. Not my opinions.
>
MMY is within my 'bubble'. Deep within.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
wrote:
> >
> > You are getting sucked into the conventional wisdom regarding 
how to 
> > measure stuff like consciousness. 
> 
> i am not getting sucked into  anything. I have not stated my 
views. 
> 
> I am simply pointing out that the TMO and MMY has a cleary 
different
> view than you on the physiological correlates of higher states, and
> what those higher states are -- and their manifest attributes in 
the
> physiology of the liberated one.

MMY also? Are you sure of that?

> > While each state of awareness is 
> > physiologically distinct, I am not convinced each can be 
measured by 
> > today's scientific instruments.
> 
> Clearly you are not. MMY and the TMO clearly are. 

Again, MMY also? You cannot prove that. Her appears to converge 
towards the instruments, but has never stated unequivocally that 
higher states can be measured with today's instruments.


Thus there is a huge
> different in your views. And maifest attributes of higher states. 
And
> what the states are. 
> 
> That is what is so funny. You "experience" something. Probably 
grand.
> However you interpret in a particular way that what you experience 
is
> TMO/ MMY BC. Yet you have never discussed your experience with 
MMY. 
> Or even with someone, or many, from what i can tell, who have. 
> 
> Yet you know MMY is quite particular, specific, very picky IMO, 
about
> experiences. Particulary UC/BC. And as john said, he is not 
impressed
> with "experiences" and imaginations without corresponding clear
> sidhis. Yet you continue to claim MMY BC. Its entertaining.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> > on 8/21/06 8:42 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
> > 
> > >> > So it would appear that Ricks friend does not fit the 
profile
> -- with
> > >> > physiological markers, of someone "in" TMO CC. Thus, it 
appears
> there
> > >> > are people in FF, and elsewhere probably, who are 
proclaiming being
> > >> > "awakened' -- which may very well be a substantial and 
wonderful
> > >> > thing. But it  is different form the TMO's CC. Maybe better,
> maybe not.
> > > 
> > Or maybe it¹s the same, but the roadmap is sketchy, and the 
tools of
> > physiological measurement primitive.
> 
> "60"? people fit the physiological profile just fine with todays
> instruments. The tools of  physiological measurement for TMO CC --
> their definition -- are not primitive, sketchy or ineffective. Your
> friend does not fit the physiological profile, and definition , of 
TMO
> style CC. Period.
>
TMO style, but not MMY style...:-)





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There's no right way or wrong way to look at it. I just 
think 
> > that 
> > > > its time to declare these states of conciousness as 
attainable 
> > and 
> > > > normal, since there are more and more people being 
established 
> > in 
> > > > them. All the prior stuff I've written still holds too.
> > > 
> > > Thats fine as your opinion, your recollection from your SCI 
course 
> > or
> > > something.
> > > 
> > > however, if you are making a definitive statement of such, then
> > > perhaps you can answer the query that you missed or ignored in 
the
> > > post you are replying to:
> > > 
> > > And this is your personal experience in living in stabilized 
BC?
> > > 
> > > Is this MMY's BC? His criteria and attributes? Or another's?
> > >
> > You tell me, please. 
> 
> From what you have said, and from (my) being a TM teacher, it 
appears
> you are referring to a BC that someone else, or you, defined for 
you.
> Its not MMY's TMO BC. Again, that does not imply better or worse. 
> But different.
> 
> But if you doubt me, go to the domes and discuss your experience 
with
> M. Or ask your proxies (those who "know you are in BC because they 
are
> in BC"*) who are in FF go to the Domes and expound these 
experiences
> to MMY. See if he proclaims it BC per his VIEW. I defer to his
> assessemnt on what is and what is not TMO/MMY BC. 
> 
> Some of your proxies are actually in the Domes, aren't they?
> 
> Regardeless, it is beyond me why the FF SS BCers are so shy about
> going to the Dome mic and expounding on their clear sidhis and
> stabilized BC.   
> 
> >You know the answer as well as I do. I won't 
> > answer this for you. You will have to, even if you 
are 'wrong'. :-)
> 
> However, the fact that you continue to avoid answer and divert with
> empty neo-advaita speak, well, it pretty much says it all. 
> 
> 
> *Or is it the otherway around. Regardless, sounds like a possible
> tautology. "I am in BC because you who are in BC says so. And you 
are
> in BC because i am who is in BC says so."
>
You are 100% absolutely correct in your point of view. I am too. :-)






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[FairfieldLife] Mr. Angry Face

[bob_brigante]

http://www.matthewroddy.com/mental/angry_face.htm






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> > on 8/21/06 9:26 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > That is what is so funny. You "experience" something. 
Probably grand.
> >> > However you interpret in a particular way that what you 
experience is
> >> > TMO/ MMY BC. Yet you have never discussed your experience 
with MMY.
> >> > Or even with someone, or many, from what i can tell, who have.
> > 
> Is this essential? As a friend of mine put it, ³you¹re the only 
one at your
> graduation.² When your experience is mature and genuine, you don¹t 
need
> anyone¹s confirmation. I observe that people in higher states use 
MMY¹s
> terminology when it most effectively expresses what they are 
trying to say,
> and are equally comfortable quoting Nisargadatta, Ramana 
Maharishi, Eckhart
> Tolle, Donald Duck, or making up something new if that more 
effectively
> suits their purpose.
>
Well said- I like the 'graduation' statement! perfect!





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Alex Stanley]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley"
>  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> > >
> > > on 8/21/06 3:11 PM, sparaig at sparaig@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > >> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> 
> > > >> > , "curtisdeltablues"  wrote:
> > > >>> >> 
> > > >>> >> My prediction is that anyone who gets on the "enlightened"
> > list will
> > > >>> >> be banned from future courses.  MMY's organization is not
> > built for
> > > >>> >> people who claim to have reached the goal. The "only one
> > beard in the
> > > >>> >> room" rule still applies.  Am I wrong?
> > > >>> >> 
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > That's why Fred Travis has been able to publish physiological
> > studies on
> > > >> > people who reported
> > > >> > witnessing 24/7 for years on end: they're afraid to step
> forward...
> > > > 
> > > Fred was very condescending and dismissive of an Awake friend
> > > of mine whose brain waves didn¹t happen to match Fred¹s
> > > expectations.
> > 
> > Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is a
> > measurable, dualistic phenomenon?
> 
> Well, its a 30 year old theme in the TMO  -- at least  as far as
> states, dual and non-dual, having measurable correlates. TMO 
> folks got it from MMY -- and his active encouragement of various
> researchers of that theme. And TMO'ers got it from many advanced
> lectures, res course tapes, etc. And SCI. Where did you "miss"
> the theme being there?

I never had any interest in ideas about enlightenment, so the TMO's
dogmas never took. Similarly, I could never sink my teeth into Saniel
Bonder's writings, either.
 
> It does raise a good set of questions: i) is refinement of the
> nervous system, ii) is a nervous system indeed necessry' for
> enlightenment? 
> 
> Peter, if i understand his past posts, has said "no" to i). Though
> this is clearly contgraty to TMO dogma / theory. His response to ii)
> would be intersting. 
> 
> Alex, what is your view on the above two questions?

Those are interesting questions. The "I AM THATness" is not on the
level of mind or intellect; it's a knowing on the level of silent pure
awareness, pure Being. That's the fundamental, unchanging truth of all
existence. But for the human organism to realize that truth, the
attention must be directed to that awareness, and attention is ever
changing and subject to all sorts of occluding influences (ego
dynamics, mind attached to concepts of enlightenment, etc.) My guess
is that attention on awareness is not something that can be measured
in a laboratory.

But, back to your two questions, refinement of nervous system is
probably not a bad idea, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary.
After all, there have been great awakened minds in bodies that saw
more than their fair share of alcohol abuse, and Nisargadatta fouled
his with tobacco. Is the duality of a human nervous system necessary
to know oneself as nonduality? Gonna have to plead paradox of Brahman
on that one.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> > on 8/21/06 9:26 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > That is what is so funny. You "experience" something. Probably
grand.
> >> > However you interpret in a particular way that what you
experience is
> >> > TMO/ MMY BC. Yet you have never discussed your experience with MMY.
> >> > Or even with someone, or many, from what i can tell, who have.
> > 

> Is this essential? 

Actually, to authentically claim a TMO MMY style of enlightenment, yes
, I think you need MMY's confirmation. Since as we both witnessed
(hehe) so many claimants -- so many non-confirmations by MMY over the
years.

This does not mean MMY is necessarily an authority on enlightenment,
or all styles of awakening. It simply acknowledges that he IS the
authority on what he classifies as TMO style enlightenment. And he is
very specific and "picky".  

  
>As a friend of mine put it, ³you¹re the only one at your
> graduation.

If you are still there to graduate, its a phony graduation.

² When your experience is mature and genuine, you don¹t need
> anyone¹s confirmation.

For "your own" defined enlightenment, or some other teachers, sure.
However, for  MMY's enlightenemt, you need his confirmation. 

Thus the question, why are all FF SSers so shy, so lacking in cosmic
testosterone, that they are so afraid of ridicule (and who exactly
gets ridiculed after liberation?) that they are afraid of discussing
their experiences and interpretations of them with MMY? Someting
smells fishy amd its not JonBennet.

 I observe that people in higher states use MMY¹s
> terminology when it most effectively expresses what they are trying
to say,
> and are equally comfortable quoting Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharishi,
Eckhart
> Tolle, Donald Duck, or making up something new if that more effectively
> suits their purpose.

Thats fine, if they are not proclaiming or implyinmg MMY style
enlightenment without his confirmation. 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 8:48 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> >> > That would not be consistent with Tom being in any of those states.
> >> > 
> >> > But if you said the opposite, that would not  be consistent
with Jim
> >> > being in any of thoset states.
> >> > 
> >> > See what I mean -- its interesting how people have different
> >> > experiences and different interpretation of those experiences.
> > 
> Because they are (drum roll please...) DIFFERENT PEOPLE! 6 billion
flavors.


There are if you want to make up your own enlightenment system -- as
some in FF SS have done apparently. 

MMY does not say 6 billion flavors of radically different, quite 
contradictory interpretations of enlightenement. Thats a TT thing/
dogma. So there is TT / FF SS enlightenment and MMY enlightenment. Who
knows which is "superior" (haha that line always makes me laugh). 

My sole point, DRUM ROLL, is they are different. 

And it lacks integrity to claim an awakening of ones own defitinion is
in fact TMO style enlightenment.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 8:41 PM, Alex Stanley at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is a
> > measurable, dualistic phenomenon?
> > 
> They assume it is. That assumption is consistent with MMY¹s
teaching. They
> fervently want to quantify it and prove TM¹s superiority in
developing it.
>
and other obvious  interpretations are possible. even less loaded and
pejoritive ones. 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 7:02 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> >> > It sounds like the Dome group and M could benefit greatly by
hearing
> >> > the direct experience and exposition of a state, per spraigs quote,
> >> > that M cannot even cognize (aka "imagine" per the context, IMO.)
> > 
> I don¹t think any of them are claiming to know about such a state.
Again,
> your implication is that these people are full of hot air.


No, my implication is not that my opinion is they are full of
hot air. Besides my opinion is irrelevant. But these folks, some, are
claiming MMY-style BC. Why are they not rejoicing in discussing it
with MMY?

And if there is in FF, a community of BCers, and if a community of
BCers really is  beyond MMY's experience (per spraigs quote) and
ability to imagine in detail, then why would the FF SSers not share
this with MMY? It seems sad if not mean to not  share it.

I heard 4th hand that some in the FF SS feel that they are possibly
the most enligteneed group in the world. Why not share these
end-of-10th mandala experiences with MMY? It is just mid bobggling
that they would not share.

unless: 

they dont respect MMY's insights -- in which case why do they bother
proclaiming MMY-style BC? Or go to his Domes?

or there is an element of imagination in their SS that they do not
want to expose to MMY. And have him deflate their bubble. 

If it is a bubble. The above are conditional statements and logical
inferences. Not my opinions. 








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 8:42 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >> > So it would appear that Ricks friend does not fit the profile
-- with
> >> > physiological markers, of someone "in" TMO CC. Thus, it appears
there
> >> > are people in FF, and elsewhere probably, who are proclaiming being
> >> > "awakened' -- which may very well be a substantial and wonderful
> >> > thing. But it  is different form the TMO's CC. Maybe better,
maybe not.
> > 
> Or maybe it¹s the same, but the roadmap is sketchy, and the tools of
> physiological measurement primitive.

"60"? people fit the physiological profile just fine with todays
instruments. The tools of  physiological measurement for TMO CC --
their definition -- are not primitive, sketchy or ineffective. Your
friend does not fit the physiological profile, and definition , of TMO
style CC. Period.

 








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[FairfieldLife] Re: : "All applicants come NOW."--Maharishi /& Guidelines?

[dhamiltony2k5]

Ken, a defender of the faith.  Thanks for coming out.  It is good to 
have the more purist take also here.  Ken, I posted a question the 
other day and there were really no takers.  Could you take a try?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/109126
what say the tru-believer reading the list?
Have they no thot on this? How do the insiders going to the domes
see it going? How about a defender of the faithful speaking for
them? A public defender? What do they see it taking to bring a
significant number back?

-Doug in FF


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, kenwoodfx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Mistakes you make, wrong words, wrong thinking. Just come in your 
pure source, and all the impurities will simply go away. Just then 
you will be more happy and better in every way. Still there is time 
for that.
> 
> Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  
>  
>  --- kenwoodfx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>  > If someone is rejected, there is a reason for that,
>  > but that is not a reason for not coming in the Dome
>  > in this important time in world history.
>  > People who wants to do good will not think like
>  > that.
>  > Everyone who is invited is invited with good reason,
>  > and should come and do good for the world, not
>  > thinking about what small ego says, being afraid for
>  > his existence.
>  
>  Ken ,you mood making twit. Do you have an original
>  thought. Seems like you lost your balls a long time
>  ago. How's your yoni? MMY has been beating this silly
>  drum for decades (are you new canon fodder or
>  something?). Next you'll be telling us that the
>  pundits will come if we just squeeze our butt checks
>  together hard enough. Ahh. Wonderful rajasic outburst
>  for the day! I can't stand these mood-making, Capital
>  fops that have ruined the movement with there
>  sing-songy little girl voices wearing their light tan
>  suits and so terrified of aggression or asserting an
>  original thought. The greatest irony is that you are
>  MMY's curse and you don't even know it. 
>  
> ..
.,






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Rick Archer]

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences





> on 8/21/06 9:26 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> That is what is so funny. You "experience" something. Probably grand.
> However you interpret in a particular way that what you experience is
> TMO/ MMY BC. Yet you have never discussed your experience with MMY. 
> Or even with someone, or many, from what i can tell, who have. 

Is this essential? As a friend of mine put it, “you’re the only one at your graduation.” When your experience is mature and genuine, you don’t need anyone’s confirmation. I observe that people in higher states use MMY’s terminology when it most effectively expresses what they are trying to say, and are equally comfortable quoting Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharishi, Eckhart Tolle, Donald Duck, or making up something new if that more effectively suits their purpose.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 4:08 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Thanks for your reply. A quick response -- more on other points later.  
> > 
> >> >And MMY
> >> > has called for experiences -- of sidhis and statilized states. And
> >> > many of the "normal folk" are responding with great experiences of
> >> > both, apparently, with great adoring feedback from MMY. Why would
> >> > these special silent ones feel shy about stepping up to the mic and
> >> > discussing their experiences?


 
> There is definitely a major
> faction in this community who conceive of enlightenment as being
something
> so extraordinary that they accuse anyone proclaiming it of egomania,
as you
> appear to be doing in the following paragraph.

No, that is not my point at all. Perhaps my wording is way off. Let me
try again. 

I was responding to the point made in earlier posts that the FF BCers
are reluctant to go to the mic in the Dome because if they talked
about their BC and sidhi experiences on the mic to MMY, they would be
kicked out of the domes. My whole point below from prior post is that
the above assertion seems ridiculous. Others are talking to MMY about
sidhi and apparently higher state experiences. They are not being
kicked out. Why would the FF SSers be kicked out? 

> >> > 
> >> > Perhaps their experiences are so much more Brahamanic and the
sidhis
> >> > are SO much beyond the "normal-folks" experiences, 
\

My language was perhaps flamboyant to make a point. The point above.
Perhaps the laguage was excessive, if so sorry. However, my point has
nothing to do with them being egosistic if they talk about their
experiences. 

that MMY will say
> >> > -- "no, THAT Brahman is TOO GRAND -- Out with you out of DOMES
NOW!.
> >> > Now lets get back to hear of "normal Brahamn".
> >> > 
> >> > Should tha unlikely scenario occur: MMY is mad that people are
having
> >> > good experiences (what a bizzare premise) and these special walking
> >> > buddhas -- Brahman Incarnates -- what do they have to fear of being
> >> > banned from the domes. 
> > 
> You see? You¹re ridiculing them.

NO I am not. Not in the least. See above. 


> They¹re not afraid of Maharishi. They are
> human beings, whatever their state of consciousness, and don¹t want to
> become objects of ridicule. 

Thats an odd conjunction of statements. And observations and facts. if
others are giving their experiences, and the FF SSers give their
similar experiences, where is the ridicule? 

The domers giving their experiences are not being ridiculed, why would
the FF SSers be ridiculed. The logic makes no sense.


>They have no compelling need to publicize their
> experience.

No they don't. Particulary if they claim "this is my own style of
awakening. It is what it is". 

What is facinating though is that some, perhaps many, claim MMY/TMO
BC. In doing so, then there is a compelling reason to go to the mic:
To have MMY confirm their interpretations of their experience. If they
don't have the cosmic balls to do that, then, I would defer to John --
"MMY is not impressed with imaginations". 

And again, a point often stated, and more often lost it appears, I am
not saying MMY BC is better than the FF SSers awakenings. But at least
in some cases it appears different. So its odd, IMO, for people of
integrity to claim MMY BC, and yet not be confident to discuss and
explore the nuances with MMY. Speaking to MMY on the mic is such a
great thing. That they are too shy or fear ridicule are such hollow
excuses -- its just another oddity that points to other nterpretations
of their experiences.

See my prior comments below. Same idea, other words.

> >> > What MMY may have concerns about, similar to some posters here
-- is
> >> > that some are lableling their experiences as something MMY
feels they
> >> > are not. In the TMO, and most guru systems, the teacher
proclaims the
> >> > label, not the student. The student simply elucidates
experiences --
> >> > and answers questions regarding them. As makes sense. Thus when
> >> > stepping up to the mic, MMY may label the experience other than the
> >> > person feels is the case. i have seen it over and over.
> >> > 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

> It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the 
> mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to 
> practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names 
> of gods

Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Rick Archer]

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences





on 8/21/06 8:41 PM, Alex Stanley at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is a
measurable, dualistic phenomenon?

They assume it is. That assumption is consistent with MMY’s teaching. They fervently want to quantify it and prove TM’s superiority in developing it.


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Rick Archer]

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences





on 8/21/06 8:48 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> That would not be consistent with Tom being in any of those states. 
> 
> But if you said the opposite, that would not  be consistent with Jim
> being in any of thoset states.
> 
> See what I mean -- its interesting how people have different
> experiences and different interpretation of those experiences. 

Because they are (drum roll please...) DIFFERENT PEOPLE! 6 billion flavors.


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Rick Archer]

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences





on 8/21/06 8:42 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> So it would appear that Ricks friend does not fit the profile -- with
> physiological markers, of someone "in" TMO CC. Thus, it appears there
> are people in FF, and elsewhere probably, who are proclaiming being
> "awakened' -- which may very well be a substantial and wonderful
> thing. But it  is different form the TMO's CC. Maybe better, maybe not. 

Or maybe it’s the same, but the roadmap is sketchy, and the tools of physiological measurement primitive.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Rick Archer]

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences





on 8/21/06 7:02 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> The members of the FF Satsang group apparently can and do live THAT
> communal BC every wednesday night. Per the letter posted earier, why
> the shyness of the memembers of this group explaining to M. the
> attributes of living in a community where everyone is BC? 

Only a minority in those meetings claim to be in BC. Whether they are or not – whatever state they’re in – many are quite evidently awake and a very profound atmosphere gets generated.

> I heard Rory applied to the Domes. Did he get in?

Yes.

> Is he relaying his
> experiences to M? 

No.

>If not why not I wonder. 

You would have to ask him.

>Are Tom and other FF SSers
>  in the Domes. 

I think Tom got a badge. Don’t know if he’s gone.

>Again per the letter, why are all being silent when so
> many "regular folk" are expounding on their sidhis and stabilized
> higher states. 

Some in the Wed. Ngt. Satsang have spoken on the mike. The fellow who wrote that letter is trying to get more to do so.
> 
> It sounds like the Dome group and M could benefit greatly by hearing
> the direct experience and exposition of a state, per spraigs quote, 
> that M cannot even cognize (aka "imagine" per the context, IMO.)

I don’t think any of them are claiming to know about such a state. Again, your implication is that these people are full of hot air. 


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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  
> wrote:
> >
> > More power to anyone claiming awakening. But without specific
> > physiological correlates, its not TMO enlightenement. It is 
> something
> > else,  some other definition of higher states, other than the 
> TMO's.
> > Such as it appears Jim is doing. 
> > 
> > That doesn't imply that such awakened or non-TMO BC aren't 
> substantial
> > or "less". But they are not the TMO thing.
> > 
> > It does raise a good set of questions: i) is refinement of the 
> nervous
> > system, ii) is a nervous system indeed necessry' for 
> enlightenment? 
> > 
> > Peter, if i understand his past posts, has said "no" to i). Though
> > this is clearly contgraty to TMO dogma / theory. His response to 
> ii)
> > would be intersting. 
> > 
> > Alex, what is your view on the above two questions?
> >
> You are getting sucked into the conventional wisdom regarding how to 
> measure stuff like consciousness. 

i am not getting sucked into  anything. I have not stated my views. 

I am simply pointing out that the TMO and MMY has a cleary different
view than you on the physiological correlates of higher states, and
what those higher states are -- and their manifest attributes in the
physiology of the liberated one.

> While each state of awareness is 
> physiologically distinct, I am not convinced each can be measured by 
> today's scientific instruments.

Clearly you are not. MMY and the TMO clearly are. Thus there is a huge
different in your views. And maifest attributes of higher states. And
what the states are. 

That is what is so funny. You "experience" something. Probably grand.
However you interpret in a particular way that what you experience is
TMO/ MMY BC. Yet you have never discussed your experience with MMY. 
Or even with someone, or many, from what i can tell, who have. 

Yet you know MMY is quite particular, specific, very picky IMO, about
experiences. Particulary UC/BC. And as john said, he is not impressed
with "experiences" and imaginations without corresponding clear
sidhis. Yet you continue to claim MMY BC. Its entertaining.

 








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Rick Archer]

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences





on 8/21/06 4:08 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com  
> , "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com  
>> , Rick Archer  wrote:
>> The powers that be (and some
>> people on
>>> this list) get very nervous when someone claims to have reached
> the  goal.
> 
> I must have missed a lot of posts? Who gets nervous when someone
> claims to have reached the  goal? I laugh a bit that "someone" has 
> strived and strived and reached a "goal". Someonemay have achieved
> something. But that is not THAT. No "individual" gets enlightened and
> there is no goal that the idividual ever reaches. Artifiacts of
> language aside, this type of "ME"-focussed "my enlightenmnet" language
> appears to so predominatlye in some posts -- so it is notewrothy at
> times, if not amusing.

Language is tricky. I think people like Peter, Jim F., Tom T. and others understand your point perfectly well, but statements about subjective experience become very cumbersome without the use of the subjective personal pronoun. And when that pronoun is used, or when they express a thought or opinion about some other topic as an individual (which is the only element in the equation that can have thoughts or opinions), it appears to me that you often try to nail them for being phonies. 

> The major point I have seen raised over the years, and i have raised
> it myself, is that the "enlightenment" some proclaim, while probably a
> good and glorious thing, per the attributes cited, has little to do
> with what MMY has laid out as what he means by the term enlightenment. 

In some cases it may not, but in many cases it very well may be exactly what he was talking about, but sound different when a person tries to describe it in their own terms. Maharishi could only offer a road map, and a road map, like words, is a far cry from the territory it represents. Start driving around that territory and you might be surprised how differently it appears from the concept the map gave you. There is also the issue that there are many stages of awakening, and people may mistake the stage they are experiencing for a more advanced one whose description seems to fit what they are experiencing.

> John was insightful: "As I'm sure you have gathered, Maharishi isn't
> impressed with flash, or imagination. But with solid experience of the
> Sidhis .. ". MMY has always said, when I have heard him directly in
> the 70's when this all came out, and on some tapes since that with
> enlightenment dawns strong sidhis abilities. John appears to confirm
> that is still the case after all these years. Clear Ritam  was also a
> blossoming attribute of enlightenment that he refered to in the 70s. 

Most of the people I know who say they are awake also have numerous sidhi experiences and clear ritam. They may not be flying, but neither is Maharishi. Has he ever proven he is enlightened by demonstrating sidhis? He laid down the ground rules, but did he ever play by them?
> 
> I have no problem, I can't recall any major problems posted, with
> people talking about "experiences". Great awakenings are wonderful.
> Who would possibly be "nervous' over reports of such? What is at times
> noteworthy, sometimes questionable, is when, on a primarily TMO-rooted
> list, that such awakenings are labeled with the same labels as MMY
> uses -- but without the corresponding clear sidhis, ritam, and other
> "attributes" that per  his use of the term, manifest with
> enlightenment. I listed 27 or so a while back. 

I question this assumption. Perhaps your criteria for what would constitute fulfillment of those 27 attributes do not correlate with actual experiences of their attainment. Again, the map is a far cry from the territory it represents. Yet I know people in Fairfield who not only experience everything in terms of Pure Consciousness 24/7, but have stable celestial perception, certainly fulfilling MMY’s criteria.
> 
> I don't understand the shyness and meekness of the original post /
> letter. "These individuals generally do not wish to publicize their
> experiences.  ... I wonder whether Maharishi would like to hear
> publicly of these experiences or not.  It seems to me he would, given
> that significant numbers of people are actually realizing all that his
> programs are intended to bring about... Perhaps, for reasons I do not
> understand, it is better for the awakened in our community to remain
> silent and their experiences to remain largely unknown. ...If you feel
> Maharishi would consider it a good thing, I could urge one or more of
> them to relate their experiences at the mike."  
> 
> What are these walking Buddhas, Brahman Conscious, totally liberated
> universal souls afraid of? 

Some are quite outspoken. Some have been given a hard time by the Movement for being outspoken. Some prefer to remain quiet because they would

[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There's no right way or wrong way to look at it. I just think 
> > that 
> > > > its time to declare these states of conciousness as attainable 
> > and 
> > > > normal, since there are more and more people being established 
> > in 
> > > > them. All the prior stuff I've written still holds too.
> > > 
> > > Thats fine as your opinion, your recollection from your SCI course 
> > or
> > > something.
> > > 
> > > however, if you are making a definitive statement of such, then
> > > perhaps you can answer the query that you missed or ignored in the
> > > post you are replying to:
> > > 
> > > And this is your personal experience in living in stabilized BC?
> > > 
> > > Is this MMY's BC? His criteria and attributes? Or another's?
> > >
> > You tell me, please. 
> 
> From what you have said, and from (my) being a TM teacher, it appears
> you are referring to a BC that someone else, or you, defined for you.
> Its not MMY's TMO BC. Again, that does not imply better or worse. 
> But different.
> 
> But if you doubt me, go to the domes and discuss your experience with
> M. Or ask your proxies (those who "know you are in BC because they are
> in BC"*) who are in FF go to the Domes and expound these experiences
> to MMY. See if he proclaims it BC per his VIEW. I defer to his
> assessemnt on what is and what is not TMO/MMY BC. 
> 
> Some of your proxies are actually in the Domes, aren't they?
> 
> Regardeless, it is beyond me why the FF SS BCers are so shy about
> going to the Dome mic and expounding on their clear sidhis and
> stabilized BC.   
> 
> >You know the answer as well as I do. I won't 
> > answer this for you. You will have to, even if you are 'wrong'. :-)
> 
> However, the fact that you continue to avoid answer and divert with
> empty neo-advaita speak, well, it pretty much says it all. 
> 
> 
> *Or is it the otherway around. Regardless, sounds like a possible
> tautology. "I am in BC because you who are in BC says so. And you are
> in BC because i am who is in BC says so."
>

To paraphrase Valentine Michael Smith: Truely, Thou Art in BC --but then again, 
who isn't?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
> wrote:
> > >
> > > There's no right way or wrong way to look at it. I just think 
> that 
> > > its time to declare these states of conciousness as attainable 
> and 
> > > normal, since there are more and more people being established 
> in 
> > > them. All the prior stuff I've written still holds too.
> > 
> > Thats fine as your opinion, your recollection from your SCI course 
> or
> > something.
> > 
> > however, if you are making a definitive statement of such, then
> > perhaps you can answer the query that you missed or ignored in the
> > post you are replying to:
> > 
> > And this is your personal experience in living in stabilized BC?
> > 
> > Is this MMY's BC? His criteria and attributes? Or another's?
> >
> You tell me, please. 

>From what you have said, and from (my) being a TM teacher, it appears
you are referring to a BC that someone else, or you, defined for you.
Its not MMY's TMO BC. Again, that does not imply better or worse. 
But different.

But if you doubt me, go to the domes and discuss your experience with
M. Or ask your proxies (those who "know you are in BC because they are
in BC"*) who are in FF go to the Domes and expound these experiences
to MMY. See if he proclaims it BC per his VIEW. I defer to his
assessemnt on what is and what is not TMO/MMY BC. 

Some of your proxies are actually in the Domes, aren't they?

Regardeless, it is beyond me why the FF SS BCers are so shy about
going to the Dome mic and expounding on their clear sidhis and
stabilized BC.   

>You know the answer as well as I do. I won't 
> answer this for you. You will have to, even if you are 'wrong'. :-)

However, the fact that you continue to avoid answer and divert with
empty neo-advaita speak, well, it pretty much says it all. 


*Or is it the otherway around. Regardless, sounds like a possible
tautology. "I am in BC because you who are in BC says so. And you are
in BC because i am who is in BC says so."










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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > From the idea that enlightened states of consciousness are STATES 
> OF CONSCIOUSNESS, 
> > complete with physiological styles of functioning.
> >
> I don't agree that such states are necessarily measurable with 
> today's instruments, even though they are each distinct.

Which would be natural for you to have a quite contrary view to that
of MMY and the TMO on this. Since you are referring to two different
things -- but oddly enough calling them the same thing. 









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Great Opus Cartoon

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> So funny and so true:
> http://comics.com/wash/opus/index.html
> Now I'll hear from all the "must always be connected" types for mocking 
> them. ;-)
>


This is your brain. This is your brain with an ultra-high-frequency transciever 
jammed 
against it all day long...

Brain imaging studies show definite differences between a brain of someone who  
is talking 
on a cell phone next to their ear, and the brain of someone who isn't. The 
differences are 
even more striking when that someone is a little kid.

No-one knows what these differences mean, but there is a definite, measureable 
difference.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter  
wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > --- authfriend  wrote:
> > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37"
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer
> > >  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > on 8/21/06 1:38 PM, curtisdeltablues at
> > > curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > My prediction is that anyone who gets on the
> > > "enlightened" list 
> > > > > > will be banned from future courses.  MMY's
> > > organization is not 
> > > > > > built for people who claim to have reached the
> > > goal. The "only 
> > > > > > one beard in the room" rule still applies.  Am
> > > I wrong?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > That was my response to my friend. The powers
> > > that be (and some 
> > > > > people on this list) get very nervous when
> > > someone claims to have 
> > > > > reached the goal.
> > > > 
> > > > I'm afraid that comment is not borne out by the
> > > replies given by
> > > > Hagelin and Morris that you posted an hour or so
> > > ago. They said 
> > > > quite plainly that anyone is welcome to share his
> > > or her 
> > > > experiences.  I don't think they could have said
> > > it more plainly. 
> > > > But of course, people will believe what they want
> > > to believe, 
> > > > whatever the facts.
> > > 
> > > Nonono, feste, you don't get it.
> > > 
> > > They were encouraging people to share their
> > > experiences
> > > *so they could know who to ban*.
> > > 
> > > Sheesh!
> > 
> > I'm sure if people talk about stabilized higher states
> > of consciousness MMY will do what he always does and
> > talk on many levels simultaneously. Some people will
> > hear MMY saying that the person is unstressing aand
> > others will hear that MMY is confirming their
> > experience. I've heard this many times as others have
> > too.
> 
> Of course, it may be that it is possible to have some degree of 
stabilization and STILL be 
> unstressing...
>
Right, only its more like refinement once some degree of 
stabilization is established.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley"
>  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  
wrote:
> > >
> > > on 8/21/06 3:11 PM, sparaig at sparaig@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > >> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> 
> > > >> > , "curtisdeltablues"  wrote:
> > > >>> >> 
> > > >>> >> My prediction is that anyone who gets on 
the "enlightened"
> > list will
> > > >>> >> be banned from future courses.  MMY's organization is 
not
> > built for
> > > >>> >> people who claim to have reached the goal. The "only one
> > beard in the
> > > >>> >> room" rule still applies.  Am I wrong?
> > > >>> >> 
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > That's why Fred Travis has been able to publish 
physiological
> > studies on
> > > >> > people who reported
> > > >> > witnessing 24/7 for years on end: they're afraid to step
> forward...
> > > > 
> > > Fred was very condescending and dismissive of an Awake friend
> > > of mine whose brain waves didn¹t happen to match Fred¹s
> > > expectations.
> > 
> > Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is 
a
> > measurable, dualistic phenomenon?
> 
> Well, its a 30 year old theme in the TMO  -- at least  as far as
> states, dual and non-dual, having measurable correlates. TMO folks 
got
> it from MMY -- and his active encouragement of various researchers 
of
> that theme. And TMO'ers got it from many advanced lectures, res 
course
> tapes, etc. And SCI. Where did you "miss" the theme being there?
> 
> More power to anyone claiming awakening. But without specific
> physiological correlates, its not TMO enlightenement. It is 
something
> else,  some other definition of higher states, other than the 
TMO's.
> Such as it appears Jim is doing. 
> 
> That doesn't imply that such awakened or non-TMO BC aren't 
substantial
> or "less". But they are not the TMO thing.
> 
> It does raise a good set of questions: i) is refinement of the 
nervous
> system, ii) is a nervous system indeed necessry' for 
enlightenment? 
> 
> Peter, if i understand his past posts, has said "no" to i). Though
> this is clearly contgraty to TMO dogma / theory. His response to 
ii)
> would be intersting. 
> 
> Alex, what is your view on the above two questions?
>
You are getting sucked into the conventional wisdom regarding how to 
measure stuff like consciousness. While each state of awareness is 
physiologically distinct, I am not convinced each can be measured by 
today's scientific instruments. 





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[FairfieldLife] Great Opus Cartoon

[Bhairitu]

So funny and so true:
http://comics.com/wash/opus/index.html
Now I'll hear from all the "must always be connected" types for mocking 
them. ;-)




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley" 
>  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > on 8/21/06 3:11 PM, sparaig at sparaig@ wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > >> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> > , "curtisdeltablues"  wrote:
> > > > >>> >> 
> > > > >>> >> My prediction is that anyone who gets on 
> the "enlightened"
> > > list will
> > > > >>> >> be banned from future courses.  MMY's organization is 
> not
> > > built for
> > > > >>> >> people who claim to have reached the goal. The "only one
> > > beard in the
> > > > >>> >> room" rule still applies.  Am I wrong?
> > > > >>> >> 
> > > > >> > 
> > > > >> > That's why Fred Travis has been able to publish 
> physiological
> > > studies on
> > > > >> > people who reported
> > > > >> > witnessing 24/7 for years on end: they're afraid to step 
> forward...
> > > > > 
> > > > Fred was very condescending and dismissive of an Awake friend
> > > > of mine whose brain waves didn¹t happen to match Fred¹s
> > > > expectations.
> > > 
> > > Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is 
> a
> > > measurable, dualistic phenomenon?
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > From the idea that enlightened states of consciousness are STATES 
> OF CONSCIOUSNESS, 
> > complete with physiological styles of functioning.
> >
> I don't agree that such states are necessarily measurable with 
> today's instruments, even though they are each distinct.
>


Samadhi and CC seem to be. Perhaps the rest aren't.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> > on 8/21/06 3:11 PM, sparaig at sparaig@ wrote:
> > 
> > >> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> > >> 
> > >> > , "curtisdeltablues"  wrote:
> > >>> >> 
> > >>> >> My prediction is that anyone who gets on the "enlightened"
> list will
> > >>> >> be banned from future courses.  MMY's organization is not
> built for
> > >>> >> people who claim to have reached the goal. The "only one
> beard in the
> > >>> >> room" rule still applies.  Am I wrong?
> > >>> >> 
> > >> > 
> > >> > That's why Fred Travis has been able to publish physiological
> studies on
> > >> > people who reported
> > >> > witnessing 24/7 for years on end: they're afraid to step
forward...
> > > 
> > Fred was very condescending and dismissive of an Awake friend
> > of mine whose brain waves didn¹t happen to match Fred¹s
> > expectations.
> 
> Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is a
> measurable, dualistic phenomenon?

Well, its a 30 year old theme in the TMO  -- at least  as far as
states, dual and non-dual, having measurable correlates. TMO folks got
it from MMY -- and his active encouragement of various researchers of
that theme. And TMO'ers got it from many advanced lectures, res course
tapes, etc. And SCI. Where did you "miss" the theme being there?

More power to anyone claiming awakening. But without specific
physiological correlates, its not TMO enlightenement. It is something
else,  some other definition of higher states, other than the TMO's.
Such as it appears Jim is doing. 

That doesn't imply that such awakened or non-TMO BC aren't substantial
or "less". But they are not the TMO thing.

It does raise a good set of questions: i) is refinement of the nervous
system, ii) is a nervous system indeed necessry' for enlightenment? 

Peter, if i understand his past posts, has said "no" to i). Though
this is clearly contgraty to TMO dogma / theory. His response to ii)
would be intersting. 

Alex, what is your view on the above two questions?








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[FairfieldLife] Re: FFL, Finally somebody said something.

[Alex Stanley]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "dhamiltony2k5"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley" 
>  wrote:
> 
> "FFL guidelines? Like this one from the group's homepage?
> 
> "Pretty much any topic is fair game."
> 
> Doug writing: 
> Yeah that is the weak link.  Ought to be closed to preserve this 
> place as a forum about FFL.  It is fair to ask that the posts at 
> least be related to FFL as broadly included in the guidelines and on 
> the home page, and not really just any topic.  FFL is a subject 
> group.  Being too dang permissive dilutes the forum.  
> 
> The place to protecting the forum here is in the guidelines as they 
> are stated in the guidelines file and on that home page blurb.  That 
> one liner in particular needs to be dropped.  That one line has been 
> a problem ever since it was added to the home page to try to make 
> FFL inclusive.  Some people just take advantage of it & us with it.  

Certainly, people will take advantage of the inclusive nature of FFL,
but they can only take advantage of you if you let them. Lately, the
group is dominated by political stuff that I have no interest in
discussing, so I simply don't read it. I suggest you do the same.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley" 
 wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  
wrote:
> > >
> > > on 8/21/06 3:11 PM, sparaig at sparaig@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > >> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> 
> > > >> > , "curtisdeltablues"  wrote:
> > > >>> >> 
> > > >>> >> My prediction is that anyone who gets on 
the "enlightened"
> > list will
> > > >>> >> be banned from future courses.  MMY's organization is 
not
> > built for
> > > >>> >> people who claim to have reached the goal. The "only one
> > beard in the
> > > >>> >> room" rule still applies.  Am I wrong?
> > > >>> >> 
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > That's why Fred Travis has been able to publish 
physiological
> > studies on
> > > >> > people who reported
> > > >> > witnessing 24/7 for years on end: they're afraid to step 
forward...
> > > > 
> > > Fred was very condescending and dismissive of an Awake friend
> > > of mine whose brain waves didn¹t happen to match Fred¹s
> > > expectations.
> > 
> > Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is 
a
> > measurable, dualistic phenomenon?
> >
> 
> 
> From the idea that enlightened states of consciousness are STATES 
OF CONSCIOUSNESS, 
> complete with physiological styles of functioning.
>
I don't agree that such states are necessarily measurable with 
today's instruments, even though they are each distinct.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
wrote:
> > >
> > 
> > > Just remember that UC and BC are states of perception. So it 
is not 
> > > difficult for any of us to percieve any of those states and to 
live 
> > > that way permanently. 
> > 
> > And this is your personal experience in living in  stabilized BC?
> > 
> > Is this MMY's BC? his criteria and attributes? Or another's? 
Yuors
> > perhaps?
> > 
> > > You are probably making a bigger deal out of 
> > > it than it is. 
> > 
> > And perhaps you are making a lesser detail out of it. 
> > 
> > > BC is just a clearer sight of reality than is UC than 
> > > is GC than is CC. Nothing more than that.
> > 
> > Its interesting people with different experiences and different
> > interpretation of those experiences. For example, I once 
paraphrased
> > Peter on how he felt CC was a baby step. Tom Traynor appeared to
> > explode at that simple comment.  Overflowing on and on about why 
there
> > was nothing minor or baby about CC. Implying, perhaps being 
explicit,
> > GC, UC, BC were major events beyond the major CC. And yet you 
(appear
> > to) interpret BC as "no big deal" (my paraphrase of your 
implication).
> >
> 
> 
> I suspect that for someone "in" any of these states,  that they 
are "no big deal."
>
Just like the states of conciousness any of us is in right now- 
feels completely normal, right? Right.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  wrote:

> > > BC is just a clearer sight of reality than is UC than 
> > > is GC than is CC. Nothing more than that.
> > 
> > Its interesting people with different experiences and different
> > interpretation of those experiences. For example, I once paraphrased
> > Peter on how he felt CC was a baby step. Tom Traynor appeared to
> > explode at that simple comment.  Overflowing on and on about why there
> > was nothing minor or baby about CC. Implying, perhaps being explicit,
> > GC, UC, BC were major events beyond the major CC. And yet you (appear
> > to) interpret BC as "no big deal" (my paraphrase of your implication).
> >
> 
> 
> I suspect that for someone "in" any of these states,  that they are
"no big deal."
>

That would not be consistent with Tom being in any of those states. 

But if you said the opposite, that would not  be consistent with Jim
being in any of thoset states.

See what I mean -- its interesting how people have different
experiences and different interpretation of those experiences. 

Of course some would interpret the above paradox as the paradox of
Brahman. Other interpretations are possible.












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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" 
> >  
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" 
 
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning 
> >  
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > And some mic'er's proclaims are quite bold, and 
MMY's 
> > > > indifference is
> > > > > > > > quite striking and amusing at times. Was anyone 
there 
> > when 
> > > > Sean
> > > > > > > > Bynton, Larry Lyon and their merry band came and 
> > proclaimed 
> > > > Unity,
> > > > > > > > thank MMY profusely for their enlightenemtn, and MMY 
was 
> > > > having
> > > > > > > > nothing of the facade?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I've had flashes of what I thought mght be UC, though 
a TM 
> > > > teacher
> > > > > > friend thought it was 
> > > > > > > more along the lines of CC. REgardless, given MMY's 
> > > > expectation that
> > > > > > UC means that you can 
> > > > > > > do any and all of the sidhis, on demand, I tend to 
doubt 
> > most 
> > > > claims
> > > > > > here or anywhere else 
> > > > > > > that someone is in BC.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > MMY doesn't even claim that for Gurudev, that I am 
aware 
> > of.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm always curious about the truth of that definition of 
UC. 
> > > > Given all
> > > > > > of Maharishi's health issues. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Has MMY claimed full UC for himself? I once heard a second-
> > hand 
> > > > comment by him:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "I can cognize what it is like to be in BC, but I can't 
> > cognize 
> > > > what it is like to be living in a 
> > > > > community where everyone is BC."
> > > > > 
> > > > > The person who quoted it to me obviously (to me) had a 
belief 
> > that 
> > > > MMY was in UC, or 
> > > > > even BC, but that's not how *I* interpreted the statement.
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > Just remember that UC and BC are states of perception. So it 
is 
> > not 
> > > > difficult for any of us to percieve any of those states and 
to 
> > live 
> > > > that way permanently. You are probably making a bigger deal 
out 
> > of 
> > > > it than it is. BC is just a clearer sight of reality than is 
UC 
> > than 
> > > > is GC than is CC. Nothing more than that.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > What perception?
> > >
> > What?
> >
> 
> Exactluy. You said "perceive any of those states" and I was 
wondering how you perceive a 
> state...
>
you tell me- what state are you perceiving *right now*?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> > on 8/21/06 3:11 PM, sparaig at sparaig@ wrote:
> > 
> > >> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> > >> 
> > >> > , "curtisdeltablues"  wrote:
> > >>> >> 
> > >>> >> My prediction is that anyone who gets on the "enlightened"
> list will
> > >>> >> be banned from future courses.  MMY's organization is not
> built for
> > >>> >> people who claim to have reached the goal. The "only one
> beard in the
> > >>> >> room" rule still applies.  Am I wrong?
> > >>> >> 
> > >> > 
> > >> > That's why Fred Travis has been able to publish physiological
> studies on
> > >> > people who reported
> > >> > witnessing 24/7 for years on end: they're afraid to step forward...
> > > 
> > Fred was very condescending and dismissive of an Awake friend
> > of mine whose brain waves didn¹t happen to match Fred¹s
> > expectations.
> 
> Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is a
> measurable, dualistic phenomenon?
>


>From the idea that enlightened states of consciousness are STATES OF 
>CONSCIOUSNESS, 
complete with physiological styles of functioning.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
wrote:
> >
> > There's no right way or wrong way to look at it. I just think 
that 
> > its time to declare these states of conciousness as attainable 
and 
> > normal, since there are more and more people being established 
in 
> > them. All the prior stuff I've written still holds too.
> 
> Thats fine as your opinion, your recollection from your SCI course 
or
> something.
> 
> however, if you are making a definitive statement of such, then
> perhaps you can answer the query that you missed or ignored in the
> post you are replying to:
> 
> And this is your personal experience in living in stabilized BC?
> 
> Is this MMY's BC? His criteria and attributes? Or another's?
>
You tell me, please. You know the answer as well as I do. I won't 
answer this for you. You will have to, even if you are 'wrong'. :-)





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gullible fool  wrote:
> >
> >  
> > > Fred was very condescending and dismissive of an
> > > Awake friend of mine whose
> > > brain waves didn¹t happen to match Fred¹s
> > > expectations.
> > 
> > Fred is looking for cc-like experiences in the brain.
> > Quite a few seekers have reached the beginning stage
> > of awakening, meaning the experience of individual "I"
> > being gone, without an amazingly coherent and blissful
> > brain. It's just a beginning stage that they are at.
> > The amazingly coherent and blissful brain is probably
> > enjoyed by no more than a few in the US, but that's
> > just my opinion.  
> 
> 
> Fred says that he's seen enough physiological measures of people in
CC to have some 
> confidence about the general physiology of the state.

So it would appear that Ricks friend does not fit the profile -- with
physiological markers, of someone "in" TMO CC. Thus, it appears there
are people in FF, and elsewhere probably, who are proclaiming being
"awakened' -- which may very well be a substantial and wonderful
thing. But it  is different form the TMO's CC. Maybe better, maybe not. 

Hmm, per the above statement are some thinking new.moring is
"nervous"? Or trying to assert power over the myth of individuality? 

If so, what odd thoughts areise ins some peoples minds. Well,
thankfully, its just a thought.













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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Alex Stanley]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 3:11 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> >> 
> >> > , "curtisdeltablues"  wrote:
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> My prediction is that anyone who gets on the "enlightened"
list will
> >>> >> be banned from future courses.  MMY's organization is not
built for
> >>> >> people who claim to have reached the goal. The "only one
beard in the
> >>> >> room" rule still applies.  Am I wrong?
> >>> >> 
> >> > 
> >> > That's why Fred Travis has been able to publish physiological
studies on
> >> > people who reported
> >> > witnessing 24/7 for years on end: they're afraid to step forward...
> > 
> Fred was very condescending and dismissive of an Awake friend
> of mine whose brain waves didn¹t happen to match Fred¹s
> expectations.

Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is a
measurable, dualistic phenomenon?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> There's no right way or wrong way to look at it. I just think that 
> its time to declare these states of conciousness as attainable and 
> normal, since there are more and more people being established in 
> them. All the prior stuff I've written still holds too.

Thats fine as your opinion, your recollection from your SCI course or
something.

however, if you are making a definitive statement of such, then
perhaps you can answer the query that you missed or ignored in the
post you are replying to:

And this is your personal experience in living in stabilized BC?

Is this MMY's BC? His criteria and attributes? Or another's? 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Something fishy about alleged Jonbenet murderer

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, MDixon6569@ wrote:
> 
> > I think more importantly a large percentage of people probably 
> > don't  trust judges in general with their personal safety 
> > especially when it comes to matters of national security.
> 
> Latest CNN poll:
> 
> Most Americans (54 percent) don't consider [Bush] honest,
> most (54 percent) don't think he shares their values and
> most (58 percent) say he does not inspire confidence.
> 
> http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/images/08/21/rel20b.pdf
> 
> Gosh, but according to MDixon, 65 percent of
> Americans approve of warrantless wiretapping
> authorized by someone they don't trust or
> consider honest and indeed prefer it to 
> wiretapping with oversight by judges.
> 
> Very strange world MDixon lives in.
>


Has anyone bothered to correlate terrorist attacks and/or rumors of same with 
Bush's poll 
approval?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  wrote:
> >
> > on 8/21/06 6:38 PM, sparaig at sparaig@ wrote:
> > > 
> > >  comment by
> > > him:
> > > 
> > He never claimed to be in any higher state of consciousness, but he 
> implied
> > that he had attained them all, by speaking on them authoritatively.
> 
> 
> 
> I myself wouldn't practise a technique of self-development in which 
> the figurehead wasn't in at least the highest attainable state.
> 
> It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the 
> mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise 
> a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods
>


Better not do TM then...

BTW, my experience has been that my ability to know/cognize/perceive/whatever 
MMY's 
state of consciousness has little to do with the effects of TM.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I'm sure if people talk about stabilized higher states
> of consciousness MMY will do what he always does and
> talk on many levels simultaneously. 

Clearly you have had limited time listening to MMY if you feel this is
what he "always does". I know its casuual and conversationval
language, you probably dodn't literally mean "always". My experience
he does have have a sense of humor, and communicaion, where things can
have multiple meanings AT TIMES. Its called wit, amonst other things,
in some circles. 

But he can be, often is quite unabiguous. When he tells Bevin to do
something, do you think his message is ambiguous, open to many levels
of interpretation? 

To assume that, more funny that you declare it, that his comments in
the dome, in which you are not in attendance, necessarily have 
multiple contradictory meanings (your implication) is quite amusing
and silly. I assume you are simply "making fun" and not  posing the
above as a serious absoulte "always' statement. 













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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[gullible fool]

> The point is, TM is the most efficient meditation
> technique that has been measured, and 
> has the most interesting effects on the brain, AND
> allows for a simple explanation of all 
> the major spiritual traditions. 

But mountain doesn't move.

--- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I find JohnY's comment most odd. "..why would he
> be
> > open to any experience of higher states that does
> not conform to the
> > framework that he has laid down." I have sat with
> MMY and various CPs
> > and heard literally 1000's of experiences. MMY has
> never said "oh,
> > thats an experience that does not conform to my
> framework". 
> > 
> > What he has done is clarify what experiences
> appear indicative of a
> > particular state or another. And as John said, MMY
> "is not impressed
> > with flash, or imagination."  And not impressed
> with people labeling
> > their experiences when the experience is not, in
> his experience,
> > characteristic of the the label. 
> > 
> > 
> > And " Hasn't anyone noticed that many (if
> > > not the majority of) people who have stabilized
> higher states move
> > > away from the TMO?" I have noticed that people
> whose experiences do
> > not correspond to attributes that MMY correlates
> with enlightenment,
> > at times move on, and proclaim an enlightenment of
> their own devising
> > and attributes. It may be a wonderful things --
> but is it hard to
> > understand that the TMO doesn't jump up and down
> at such?
> >
> 
> MMY's definition of enlightenment is based
> completely on what he believes is samadhi, as 
> induced/facilitated by TM. It turns out that this
> has a characteristic physiological pattern 
> unique amongst measured meditation techniques,
> though I'm sure there are individual 
> teachers from various traditions who still teach
> dhyan (TM) under a different brand-name.
> 
> If you look at how the brain works, you can see a
> direct correlation between the 
> physiological findings during TM-samadhi, and a
> large number of traditional descriptions.
> 
> TM reduces activity in the thalamus directly, or so
> it appears. The various major states of 
> awareness that we are familliar with ALL have
> distinct associated states of functioning of 
> the thalamus:
> 
> In the waking state, the thalamus functions
> "normally" and passes incoming external 
> sensory input along to the various internal sensory
> areas of the brain for further 
> processing. It also accepts output from these areas
> and merges the processed information 
> with the raw data from the various major senses
> forming continuous feedback loops 
> specific to each sense.
> 
> In deep sleep, the thalamus doesn't allow much, if
> any, information to enter the brain from 
> the external senses, and the brain itself enters a
> quiet, [apparently] no-processing mode.
> 
> In dreaming, the thalamus doesn't allow much, if
> any, information from the external 
> senses but DOES allow internal feedback loops.
> 
> In samadhi, the thalamus doesn't allow much, if any
> information, from the external senses, 
> OR from the internal feedback loops, but the brain
> remains alert. That means that any 
> sensory-based mental processing, aka "thinking,"
> just doesn't happen.
> 
> 
> Other techniques do things like reduce the activity
> of varous parts of the brain associated 
> with perception of time and space, and researchers
> tout this as evidence that THEIR 
> technique is the real deal because everyone knows
> that samadhi is timeless, spaceless, 
> objectless, etc.
> 
> TM's samadhi, OTOH, doesn't stop these areas from
> working--the thalamus just stops 
> passing the sensory signals back to the brain so
> there is no thinking, conscious or 
> "unconscious." With no thinking, there's no passage
> of time, no objects of perception, no 
> emotions, no nuttin that can be talked about,
> described, tasted, cut, burned, whatever.
> 
> One simple change at a fundamental physical level,
> and ALL the traditional descriptions of 
> samadhi/satori are explained. 
> 
> BTW, some researchers on Zen theorize that Zen
> reduces the activity of the thalamus in a 
> way similar to TM, but they insist it is because the
> thalamus has become overstimulated 
> and therefore temporarily exhausted. Anyone remember
> the old SCI tape where MMY 
> speculates that other forms of meditation sometimes
> induce samadhi because they 
> exhuast the brain?
> 
> 
> The point is, TM is the most efficient meditation
> technique that has been measured, and 
> has the most interesting effects on the brain, AND
> allows for a simple explanation of all 
> the major spiritual traditions. Given these facts,
> why would the leaders of the TMO be 
> impressed with self-proclaimed enlightened people
> from other traditions or even from 
> within the TMO whose physical and mental states are
> obviously different, and why would 
> the leaders of the TMO 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" 
>  
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning 
>  
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > And some mic'er's proclaims are quite bold, and MMY's 
> > > indifference is
> > > > > > > quite striking and amusing at times. Was anyone there 
> when 
> > > Sean
> > > > > > > Bynton, Larry Lyon and their merry band came and 
> proclaimed 
> > > Unity,
> > > > > > > thank MMY profusely for their enlightenemtn, and MMY was 
> > > having
> > > > > > > nothing of the facade?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I've had flashes of what I thought mght be UC, though a TM 
> > > teacher
> > > > > friend thought it was 
> > > > > > more along the lines of CC. REgardless, given MMY's 
> > > expectation that
> > > > > UC means that you can 
> > > > > > do any and all of the sidhis, on demand, I tend to doubt 
> most 
> > > claims
> > > > > here or anywhere else 
> > > > > > that someone is in BC.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > MMY doesn't even claim that for Gurudev, that I am aware 
> of.
> > > > > >
> > > > > I'm always curious about the truth of that definition of UC. 
> > > Given all
> > > > > of Maharishi's health issues. 
> > > > 
> > > > Has MMY claimed full UC for himself? I once heard a second-
> hand 
> > > comment by him:
> > > > 
> > > > "I can cognize what it is like to be in BC, but I can't 
> cognize 
> > > what it is like to be living in a 
> > > > community where everyone is BC."
> > > > 
> > > > The person who quoted it to me obviously (to me) had a belief 
> that 
> > > MMY was in UC, or 
> > > > even BC, but that's not how *I* interpreted the statement.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > Just remember that UC and BC are states of perception. So it is 
> not 
> > > difficult for any of us to percieve any of those states and to 
> live 
> > > that way permanently. You are probably making a bigger deal out 
> of 
> > > it than it is. BC is just a clearer sight of reality than is UC 
> than 
> > > is GC than is CC. Nothing more than that.
> > >
> > 
> > What perception?
> >
> What?
>

Exactluy. You said "perceive any of those states" and I was wondering how you 
perceive a 
state...







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  wrote:
> >
> 
> > Just remember that UC and BC are states of perception. So it is not 
> > difficult for any of us to percieve any of those states and to live 
> > that way permanently. 
> 
> And this is your personal experience in living in  stabilized BC?
> 
> Is this MMY's BC? his criteria and attributes? Or another's? Yuors
> perhaps?
> 
> > You are probably making a bigger deal out of 
> > it than it is. 
> 
> And perhaps you are making a lesser detail out of it. 
> 
> > BC is just a clearer sight of reality than is UC than 
> > is GC than is CC. Nothing more than that.
> 
> Its interesting people with different experiences and different
> interpretation of those experiences. For example, I once paraphrased
> Peter on how he felt CC was a baby step. Tom Traynor appeared to
> explode at that simple comment.  Overflowing on and on about why there
> was nothing minor or baby about CC. Implying, perhaps being explicit,
> GC, UC, BC were major events beyond the major CC. And yet you (appear
> to) interpret BC as "no big deal" (my paraphrase of your implication).
>


I suspect that for someone "in" any of these states,  that they are "no big 
deal."






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Something fishy about alleged Jonbenet murderer

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I think more importantly a large percentage of people probably 
> don't  trust judges in general with their personal safety 
> especially when it comes to matters of national security.

Latest CNN poll:

Most Americans (54 percent) don't consider [Bush] honest,
most (54 percent) don't think he shares their values and
most (58 percent) say he does not inspire confidence.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/images/08/21/rel20b.pdf

Gosh, but according to MDixon, 65 percent of
Americans approve of warrantless wiretapping
authorized by someone they don't trust or
consider honest and indeed prefer it to 
wiretapping with oversight by judges.

Very strange world MDixon lives in.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37"
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer
> >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > on 8/21/06 1:38 PM, curtisdeltablues at
> > curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > My prediction is that anyone who gets on the
> > "enlightened" list 
> > > > > will be banned from future courses.  MMY's
> > organization is not 
> > > > > built for people who claim to have reached the
> > goal. The "only 
> > > > > one beard in the room" rule still applies.  Am
> > I wrong?
> > > > > 
> > > > That was my response to my friend. The powers
> > that be (and some 
> > > > people on this list) get very nervous when
> > someone claims to have 
> > > > reached the goal.
> > > 
> > > I'm afraid that comment is not borne out by the
> > replies given by
> > > Hagelin and Morris that you posted an hour or so
> > ago. They said 
> > > quite plainly that anyone is welcome to share his
> > or her 
> > > experiences.  I don't think they could have said
> > it more plainly. 
> > > But of course, people will believe what they want
> > to believe, 
> > > whatever the facts.
> > 
> > Nonono, feste, you don't get it.
> > 
> > They were encouraging people to share their
> > experiences
> > *so they could know who to ban*.
> > 
> > Sheesh!
> 
> I'm sure if people talk about stabilized higher states
> of consciousness MMY will do what he always does and
> talk on many levels simultaneously. Some people will
> hear MMY saying that the person is unstressing aand
> others will hear that MMY is confirming their
> experience. I've heard this many times as others have
> too.

Of course, it may be that it is possible to have some degree of stabilization 
and STILL be 
unstressing...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[shempmcgurk]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 8/21/06 6:38 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> >  > him:
> > 
> He never claimed to be in any higher state of consciousness, but he 
implied
> that he had attained them all, by speaking on them authoritatively.



I myself wouldn't practise a technique of self-development in which 
the figurehead wasn't in at least the highest attainable state.

It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the 
mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise 
a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods






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[FairfieldLife] Re: FFL, and the Jonbenet murderer?

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> authfriend wrote:
> 
> >--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>authfriend wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >>>  
> >>>
> >
> >  
> >
> >>Hijacking is the term used on the Internet for that process.
> >>I didn't make it up and why should I make up some new term?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I'm sure there *are* other terms.  "Piggybacking" is
> >one, for instance.  And you should find another term
> >*if you want to influence people instead of pissing
> >them off*.
> >
> >To deliberately use a term that pisses folks off,
> >and then mock them for being pissed off, is, well,
> >neither productive nor very nice.
> >  
> >
> Actually come to think of it Barry of all people was the one who seemed 
> annoyed by me bringing it up.  There have been others who chimed in 
> about noticing the hijacking too.  Some thought it was a Yahoo bug.
> 
> 
>

The built-in plain-text editor doesn't allow you to change the subject line in 
an old thread. 
It just adds it as a greyed-out RE:xyz before the message body.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" 
 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning 
 
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > And some mic'er's proclaims are quite bold, and MMY's 
> > indifference is
> > > > > > quite striking and amusing at times. Was anyone there 
when 
> > Sean
> > > > > > Bynton, Larry Lyon and their merry band came and 
proclaimed 
> > Unity,
> > > > > > thank MMY profusely for their enlightenemtn, and MMY was 
> > having
> > > > > > nothing of the facade?
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > I've had flashes of what I thought mght be UC, though a TM 
> > teacher
> > > > friend thought it was 
> > > > > more along the lines of CC. REgardless, given MMY's 
> > expectation that
> > > > UC means that you can 
> > > > > do any and all of the sidhis, on demand, I tend to doubt 
most 
> > claims
> > > > here or anywhere else 
> > > > > that someone is in BC.
> > > > > 
> > > > > MMY doesn't even claim that for Gurudev, that I am aware 
of.
> > > > >
> > > > I'm always curious about the truth of that definition of UC. 
> > Given all
> > > > of Maharishi's health issues. 
> > > 
> > > Has MMY claimed full UC for himself? I once heard a second-
hand 
> > comment by him:
> > > 
> > > "I can cognize what it is like to be in BC, but I can't 
cognize 
> > what it is like to be living in a 
> > > community where everyone is BC."
> > > 
> > > The person who quoted it to me obviously (to me) had a belief 
that 
> > MMY was in UC, or 
> > > even BC, but that's not how *I* interpreted the statement.
> > >
> > 
> > Just remember that UC and BC are states of perception. So it is 
not 
> > difficult for any of us to percieve any of those states and to 
live 
> > that way permanently. You are probably making a bigger deal out 
of 
> > it than it is. BC is just a clearer sight of reality than is UC 
than 
> > is GC than is CC. Nothing more than that.
> >
> 
> What perception?
>
What?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gullible fool <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  
> > Fred was very condescending and dismissive of an
> > Awake friend of mine whose
> > brain waves didn¹t happen to match Fred¹s
> > expectations.
> 
> Fred is looking for cc-like experiences in the brain.
> Quite a few seekers have reached the beginning stage
> of awakening, meaning the experience of individual "I"
> being gone, without an amazingly coherent and blissful
> brain. It's just a beginning stage that they are at.
> The amazingly coherent and blissful brain is probably
> enjoyed by no more than a few in the US, but that's
> just my opinion.  


Fred says that he's seen enough physiological measures of people in CC to have 
some 
confidence about the general physiology of the state. Not-so with GC/UC/BC.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
wrote:
> >
> 
> > Just remember that UC and BC are states of perception. So it is 
not 
> > difficult for any of us to percieve any of those states and to 
live 
> > that way permanently. 
> 
> And this is your personal experience in living in  stabilized BC?
> 
> Is this MMY's BC? his criteria and attributes? Or another's? Yuors
> perhaps?
> 
> > You are probably making a bigger deal out of 
> > it than it is. 
> 
> And perhaps you are making a lesser detail out of it. 
> 
> > BC is just a clearer sight of reality than is UC than 
> > is GC than is CC. Nothing more than that.
> 
> Its interesting people with different experiences and different
> interpretation of those experiences. For example, I once 
paraphrased
> Peter on how he felt CC was a baby step. Tom Traynor appeared to
> explode at that simple comment.  Overflowing on and on about why 
there
> was nothing minor or baby about CC. Implying, perhaps being 
explicit,
> GC, UC, BC were major events beyond the major CC. And yet you 
(appear
> to) interpret BC as "no big deal" (my paraphrase of your 
implication)

There's no right way or wrong way to look at it. I just think that 
its time to declare these states of conciousness as attainable and 
normal, since there are more and more people being established in 
them. All the prior stuff I've written still holds too. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000"  
> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > > > 
> > > > > And some mic'er's proclaims are quite bold, and MMY's 
> indifference is
> > > > > quite striking and amusing at times. Was anyone there when 
> Sean
> > > > > Bynton, Larry Lyon and their merry band came and proclaimed 
> Unity,
> > > > > thank MMY profusely for their enlightenemtn, and MMY was 
> having
> > > > > nothing of the facade?
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > I've had flashes of what I thought mght be UC, though a TM 
> teacher
> > > friend thought it was 
> > > > more along the lines of CC. REgardless, given MMY's 
> expectation that
> > > UC means that you can 
> > > > do any and all of the sidhis, on demand, I tend to doubt most 
> claims
> > > here or anywhere else 
> > > > that someone is in BC.
> > > > 
> > > > MMY doesn't even claim that for Gurudev, that I am aware of.
> > > >
> > > I'm always curious about the truth of that definition of UC. 
> Given all
> > > of Maharishi's health issues. 
> > 
> > Has MMY claimed full UC for himself? I once heard a second-hand 
> comment by him:
> > 
> > "I can cognize what it is like to be in BC, but I can't cognize 
> what it is like to be living in a 
> > community where everyone is BC."
> > 
> > The person who quoted it to me obviously (to me) had a belief that 
> MMY was in UC, or 
> > even BC, but that's not how *I* interpreted the statement.
> >
> 
> Just remember that UC and BC are states of perception. So it is not 
> difficult for any of us to percieve any of those states and to live 
> that way permanently. You are probably making a bigger deal out of 
> it than it is. BC is just a clearer sight of reality than is UC than 
> is GC than is CC. Nothing more than that.
>

What perception?






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Peter]

--- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer
>  wrote:
> > >
> > > on 8/21/06 1:38 PM, curtisdeltablues at
> curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > > My prediction is that anyone who gets on the
> "enlightened" list 
> > > > will be banned from future courses.  MMY's
> organization is not 
> > > > built for people who claim to have reached the
> goal. The "only 
> > > > one beard in the room" rule still applies.  Am
> I wrong?
> > > > 
> > > That was my response to my friend. The powers
> that be (and some 
> > > people on this list) get very nervous when
> someone claims to have 
> > > reached the goal.
> > 
> > I'm afraid that comment is not borne out by the
> replies given by
> > Hagelin and Morris that you posted an hour or so
> ago. They said 
> > quite plainly that anyone is welcome to share his
> or her 
> > experiences.  I don't think they could have said
> it more plainly. 
> > But of course, people will believe what they want
> to believe, 
> > whatever the facts.
> 
> Nonono, feste, you don't get it.
> 
> They were encouraging people to share their
> experiences
> *so they could know who to ban*.
> 
> Sheesh!

I'm sure if people talk about stabilized higher states
of consciousness MMY will do what he always does and
talk on many levels simultaneously. Some people will
hear MMY saying that the person is unstressing aand
others will hear that MMY is confirming their
experience. I've heard this many times as others have
too.




> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To subscribe, send a message to:
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> 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences

[Peter]

--- Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> on 8/21/06 6:38 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > 
> >  a second-hand comment by
> > him:
> > 
> He never claimed to be in any higher state of
> consciousness, but he implied
> that he had attained them all, by speaking on them
> authoritatively.

Regardless of MMY crazy surface behavior, how can
anyone of you who has seen MMY as Infinite even doubt
for one second what and who MMY is. But this applies
only to those of you who have had this direct
experience. All you other "low vibers" will have to
wait ;-)




> 


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