[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy - on Mahesh

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill 

emptyb...@... wrote:

 Randy,
 
 You are showing a bit of naiveté about Vaj.
 
 Now that you are feeling nice and relieved about NagaVaj's
 expansive views please remember his method of turning
 around your post to imply you had a poisoned intent.

Exactly. It was a willful misinterpretation of 
what Randy said that was designed to put Randy on
the defensive. Standard Vaj trick.

[Randy wrote:]
 Why do you insist on calling Maharishi, Mahesh?

It's childish, a petulant way to show disrespect
by someone who is very firmly attached to that
disrespect--it's virtually Vaj's *identity* here,
so he finds it imperative to reinforce it at every
opportunity.

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy - on Mahesh

[Duveyoung]

Vaj's use of Mahesh is like a nice Zen Master's smack across your back with a 
bamboo pole.  Keeps you focused.  

I use Maharishi almost exclusively, since he captured my heart and there's a 
ton of old patterns still operative that I have not been able to yank out by 
the roots.  To me, using Mahesh violates too many 
values-I-no-longer-invest-in-but-are-still-there.

So, keep using it, Vaj, I still need it.  Even if I was a TB still, I would 
need it.  Mahesh, when used herein, is a great big gong being bonked that 
says, Marauding heartless fake guru.  To the degree that it bothers one is 
the exact degree of one's actual belief in Maharishi -- the more it bothers, 
the more you really are not sold out to him.  

This is a public forum, so Vaj gets to yell from his stump like all the rest of 
us on our stumps.  His use of Mahesh clearly challenges all to choose what 
they really believe and invest in it.  When Vaj says Mahesh, he's saying that 
the emperor is naked if you but see that he's not wearing the Maharishi 
clothing he pretends he's wearing.  If you see Maharishi as fully clothed, then 
your first reaction should be that Vaj, what's up with his eyesight, eh?  But 
if you're angry at Vaj, then to that exact degree are you disappointed in 
Maharishi not having a well clothed image that can easily withstand such a 
semantic onslaught.  

To Vaj, Maharishi was a businessman who fleeced millions and taught them to 
never trust another guru who promised enlightenment to any and all like a 
pardoner selling the Pope's Promise of Heaven.  That's one big fucking sin, if 
true, eh?  If it's true to Vaj, then no wonder he uses Mahesh.  Wouldn't you? 
 If so, do you refer to Hitler as Der Für in the presence of his followers -- 
out of respect?  Nope.  Vaj is true to his POV.

That Vaj comes here daily and uses Mahesh, is another issue.  I don't get why 
he thinks this motley crew deserves his attention.  Perhaps he'll share.  
Maharishi is dead dead dead, Vaj.  The TMO is dying dying dying. Why sow your 
seeds amongst such dry rocks?

Edg



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptyb...@... wrote:

 
 Randy,
 
 
 
 You are showing a bit of naiveté about Vaj.
 
 
 
 Now that you are feeling nice and relieved about NagaVaj's expansive
 views please remember his method of turning around your post to imply
 you had a poisoned intent. He demonstrated it just a few posts ago.
 
 
 
 Post 220779 @ 01:12 p.m.
 
 Vaj:
 Randy, this is not a Maharishi list, it's for all
 sorts of different people, but what most seem
 to share in common is that at one time they
 had some connection to TM, Mahesh, FF, etc.
 
 
 
 I think it's pretty rude of YOU to assume that
 all TMers are ignorant.
 
 
 
 
 
 His reply was a typical Vaj snarl. It means you were pressing
 uncomfortably close by your query into his real purpose for being here.
 
 
 
 His suddenly gracious view misdirected you pretty well to another topic.
 He is quite experienced at doing this here on the forum.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Randy said -
 
 
 
 Hey vaj,
 
 
 
 Why do you insist on calling Maharishi, Mahesh?
 
 
 
 For whatever reason he went by that name (and I have read all the
 various stories of whether the name was conferred officially or people
 just started calling him that, or whatever the reason,) it was his name.
 Its just disrespectful. No matter what what you think of him, it was his
 name. By you (and others here) calling him Mahesh, it implies a variety
 of things, such as he wasn't really a maharishi. or he wasn't really
 a saint or even I know better who really was etc. Give it up.
 
 
 
 Do you really think he did not help many, many people in the world and
 therefore calling him a saint (which is the common expression for any of
 these types of people in India) is not justified?
 
 
 
 I think many of us here have some issues with some of the things he has
 done, or the way he ran his organization etc., but still there is
 nothing wrong with showing some respect.
 
 
 
 Frankly, it makes you seem arrogant.
 
 
 No matter what you think of him, show some respect
 
 
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Randy Meltzer rm108@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
  
  
   On Jun 4, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
  
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
   
   
On Jun 4, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
   
So Vaj, if you don't consider him a maharishi or a yogi, what
 are
you doing on this forum?   Do you feel its your job to somehow
bring the light of knowledge to all us ignorant Tmers?
   
Randy, this is not a Maharishi list, it's for all sorts of
 different
people, but what most seem to share in common is that at one time
they had some connection to TM, Mahesh, FF, etc.
   
I think it's pretty rude of YOU to assume that all TMers are
ignorant.
   
What I meant by us ignorant TMers is the fact that your posts

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy - on Mahesh

[Randy Meltzer]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:

 
 On Jun 4, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
 
  So Vaj, if you don't consider him a maharishi or a yogi, what are  
  you doing on this forum?   Do you feel its your job to somehow  
  bring the light of knowledge to all us ignorant Tmers?
 
 Randy, this is not a Maharishi list, it's for all sorts of different  
 people, but what most seem to share in common is that at one time  
 they had some connection to TM, Mahesh, FF, etc.
 
 I think it's pretty rude of YOU to assume that all TMers are ignorant.

What I meant by us ignorant TMers is the fact that your posts mostly seem to 
be saying that you have more knowledge and experience that most TMers, or at 
least the ones here.  And to say this list is not a Maharishi list is 
ridiculous.  Sure its not an oficial TMo list, but the reason pretty much 
everyone is on here is because they have had, or do have a connection to TM

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy - on Mahesh

[BillyG.]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Randy Meltzer rm...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
  
  On Jun 4, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
  
   So Vaj, if you don't consider him a maharishi or a yogi, what are  
   you doing on this forum?   Do you feel its your job to somehow  
   bring the light of knowledge to all us ignorant Tmers?
  
  Randy, this is not a Maharishi list, it's for all sorts of different  
  people, but what most seem to share in common is that at one time  
  they had some connection to TM, Mahesh, FF, etc.
  
  I think it's pretty rude of YOU to assume that all TMers are ignorant.
 
 What I meant by us ignorant TMers is the fact that your posts mostly seem 
 to be saying that you have more knowledge and experience that most TMers, or 
 at least the ones here.  And to say this list is not a Maharishi list is 
 ridiculous.  Sure its not an oficial TMo list, but the reason pretty much 
 everyone is on here is because they have had, or do have a connection to TM

Although most of the TM'ers on this group are pretty bright, I would have to 
say there are many TM'ers that 'are' ignorant when it comes to Yoga!  

You see, MMY never taught all the limbs of Yoga, nor did he teach TM in the 
context of Yoga, in spite of his comment it IS Yoga.  He taught it in the 
context of Science, therefore there are actually TM'ers who think the OM 
vibration is somehow evil since MMY recommended against it (for householders).

There are also TM'ers who think they don't need Religion though MMY himself 
says it's necessary in the SOB.  As a result there are morally lazy meditators 
who don't practice any form of ethical development.

I remember one tm'er on alt-tm who didn't think the chakras played a role in 
TM, again because MMY never *formally* taught that, (until a recent lecture 
surfaced with him discussing it), I could go on.  Vaj has some good points, 
albeit, he's a little uppity. 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy - on Mahesh

[Vaj]

On Jun 4, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:



On Jun 4, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:


So Vaj, if you don't consider him a maharishi or a yogi, what are
you doing on this forum?   Do you feel its your job to somehow
bring the light of knowledge to all us ignorant Tmers?


Randy, this is not a Maharishi list, it's for all sorts of different
people, but what most seem to share in common is that at one time
they had some connection to TM, Mahesh, FF, etc.

I think it's pretty rude of YOU to assume that all TMers are  
ignorant.


What I meant by us ignorant TMers is the fact that your posts  
mostly seem to be saying that you have more knowledge and experience  
that most TMers, or at least the ones here.  And to say this list is  
not a Maharishi list is ridiculous.  Sure its not an oficial TMo  
list, but the reason pretty much everyone is on here is because they  
have had, or do have a connection to TM


I've found the type of people who learned TM in the past (and I'm sure  
the same now) to be very learned in many different fields, and many  
went on to profoundly represent any number of paths and realizations.  
I think this is true of many spiritual trips, they tend to draw a very  
high caliber person IMO.


You should not get so up tight when we ruthlessly look into why  
someone has a name they have or whatever it is. We owe it to history  
to try to arrive at definite, honest answers for these questions.  
There's a reason these answers have been hidden. Being happy with just  
an advertising buy-line veneer is insane. The truth is often stranger,  
but definitely better than fiction. We should not settle for less,  
whether it's the Maharishi or Swami Rama boning their students or  
Swami Muktananda experimenting on 16 year olds or some Buddhist  
nutcase pumping Sarin gas into the Tokyo subways or some priest anally  
raping young boys or Chogyam Trungpa drunk out of mind extolling  
dharma. Veritas liberat.


At the same time, it's also worth contemplating the bizarre paradox  
these things represent and the good some of these folks were to able  
catalyze. What's up with THAT? Who are the divine madmen and who are  
the merely mad and avaricious? These are all great questions.

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy - on Mahesh

[Randy Meltzer]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:

 
 On Jun 4, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
 
  On Jun 4, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
 
  So Vaj, if you don't consider him a maharishi or a yogi, what are
  you doing on this forum?   Do you feel its your job to somehow
  bring the light of knowledge to all us ignorant Tmers?
 
  Randy, this is not a Maharishi list, it's for all sorts of different
  people, but what most seem to share in common is that at one time
  they had some connection to TM, Mahesh, FF, etc.
 
  I think it's pretty rude of YOU to assume that all TMers are  
  ignorant.
 
  What I meant by us ignorant TMers is the fact that your posts  
  mostly seem to be saying that you have more knowledge and experience  
  that most TMers, or at least the ones here.  And to say this list is  
  not a Maharishi list is ridiculous.  Sure its not an oficial TMo  
  list, but the reason pretty much everyone is on here is because they  
  have had, or do have a connection to TM
 
 I've found the type of people who learned TM in the past (and I'm sure  
 the same now) to be very learned in many different fields, and many  
 went on to profoundly represent any number of paths and realizations.  
 I think this is true of many spiritual trips, they tend to draw a very  
 high caliber person IMO.
 
 You should not get so up tight when we ruthlessly look into why  
 someone has a name they have or whatever it is. We owe it to history  
 to try to arrive at definite, honest answers for these questions.  
 There's a reason these answers have been hidden. Being happy with just  
 an advertising buy-line veneer is insane. The truth is often stranger,  
 but definitely better than fiction. We should not settle for less,  
 whether it's the Maharishi or Swami Rama boning their students or  
 Swami Muktananda experimenting on 16 year olds or some Buddhist  
 nutcase pumping Sarin gas into the Tokyo subways or some priest anally  
 raping young boys or Chogyam Trungpa drunk out of mind extolling  
 dharma. Veritas liberat.
 
 At the same time, it's also worth contemplating the bizarre paradox  
 these things represent and the good some of these folks were to able  
 catalyze. What's up with THAT? Who are the divine madmen and who are  
 the merely mad and avaricious? These are all great questions.

I agree, great questions?

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy - on Mahesh

[Vaj]

On Jun 4, 2009, at 4:50 PM, BillyG. wrote:

 What I meant by us ignorant TMers is the fact that your posts  
 mostly seem to be saying that you have more knowledge and  
 experience that most TMers, or at least the ones here.  And to say  
 this list is not a Maharishi list is ridiculous.  Sure its not an  
 oficial TMo list, but the reason pretty much everyone is on here is  
 because they have had, or do have a connection to TM

 Although most of the TM'ers on this group are pretty bright, I would  
 have to say there are many TM'ers that 'are' ignorant when it comes  
 to Yoga!

 You see, MMY never taught all the limbs of Yoga, nor did he teach TM  
 in the context of Yoga, in spite of his comment it IS Yoga.  He  
 taught it in the context of Science, therefore there are actually  
 TM'ers who think the OM vibration is somehow evil since MMY  
 recommended against it (for householders).

 There are also TM'ers who think they don't need Religion though MMY  
 himself says it's necessary in the SOB.  As a result there are  
 morally lazy meditators who don't practice any form of ethical  
 development.

 I remember one tm'er on alt-tm who didn't think the chakras played a  
 role in TM, again because MMY never *formally* taught that, (until a  
 recent lecture surfaced with him discussing it), I could go on. Vaj  
 has some good points, albeit, he's a little uppity.

Some good points B.

But I would disagree that it absolutely necessary to learn, as Dr.  
Pete would call it, our spiritual pornography: all these details about  
our subtle body. It may be enough to have some simple, skillfully  
imparted instructions. Even the deepest secrets of yoga are, after  
all, incredibly simple. It's more a matter of what's right for the  
right person. Thus the importance of people with experience and a  
certain amount of mastery and/or a certain amount of experience.

In the Tibetan Buddhist traditions, when someone wants to become a  
guru, or lama, they first know how to meditate (hopefully), then learn  
to purify their body, mind and energy and how to connect to the guru  
inside. If they're ready, they go into a three year, three month  
retreat where they learn, but not necessarily master, a large range of  
practices, in order to help a large range of students. Some they may  
master, some they may not. Some may master none. But the principle is,  
be ready to teach, as skillfully as possible, the largest number of  
students. Go as deep as you can and as wide as you can. Some people  
gain these skills, some don't.

Still others might just concentrate on one specific skill, like  
meditation. Same rules apply. Go as deep as you can, and as broad as  
you can. But still, some will go deep, some will go wide, some will do  
neither. All may try to teach. Woe to those who get the latter.

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy - on Mahesh

[BillyG.]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:

 
 On Jun 4, 2009, at 4:50 PM, BillyG. wrote:
 
  What I meant by us ignorant TMers is the fact that your posts  
  mostly seem to be saying that you have more knowledge and  
  experience that most TMers, or at least the ones here.  And to say  
  this list is not a Maharishi list is ridiculous.  Sure its not an  
  oficial TMo list, but the reason pretty much everyone is on here is  
  because they have had, or do have a connection to TM
 
  Although most of the TM'ers on this group are pretty bright, I would  
  have to say there are many TM'ers that 'are' ignorant when it comes  
  to Yoga!
 
  You see, MMY never taught all the limbs of Yoga, nor did he teach TM  
  in the context of Yoga, in spite of his comment it IS Yoga.  He  
  taught it in the context of Science, therefore there are actually  
  TM'ers who think the OM vibration is somehow evil since MMY  
  recommended against it (for householders).
 
  There are also TM'ers who think they don't need Religion though MMY  
  himself says it's necessary in the SOB.  As a result there are  
  morally lazy meditators who don't practice any form of ethical  
  development.
 
  I remember one tm'er on alt-tm who didn't think the chakras played a  
  role in TM, again because MMY never *formally* taught that, (until a  
  recent lecture surfaced with him discussing it), I could go on. Vaj  
  has some good points, albeit, he's a little uppity.
 
 Some good points B.
 
 But I would disagree that it absolutely necessary to learn, as Dr.  
 Pete would call it, our spiritual pornography: all these details about  
 our subtle body. It may be enough to have some simple, skillfully  
 imparted instructions. Even the deepest secrets of yoga are, after  
 all, incredibly simple. It's more a matter of what's right for the  
 right person. Thus the importance of people with experience and a  
 certain amount of mastery and/or a certain amount of experience.

I was only referring to theoretical knowledge, (Sankhya) not it usefulness (or 
lack of it) in the ability to transcend, Ramakrishna was illiterate.

Though theoretical knowledge (Sankhya) is important and compliments the 
practical side, or Yoga.

The theoretical aspect is called the wisdom of Sankhya; it brings 
understanding of the absolute and the relative fields of life as separate, one 
from another.  The practical aspect is called Yoga, and it brings direct 
experience of these two fields of life in separation  MMY Gita Ch3

 In the Tibetan Buddhist traditions, when someone wants to become a  
 guru, or lama, they first know how to meditate (hopefully), then learn  
 to purify their body, mind and energy and how to connect to the guru  
 inside. If they're ready, they go into a three year, three month  
 retreat where they learn, but not necessarily master, a large range of  
 practices, in order to help a large range of students. Some they may  
 master, some they may not. Some may master none. But the principle is,  
 be ready to teach, as skillfully as possible, the largest number of  
 students. Go as deep as you can and as wide as you can. Some people  
 gain these skills, some don't.
 
 Still others might just concentrate on one specific skill, like  
 meditation. Same rules apply. Go as deep as you can, and as broad as  
 you can. But still, some will go deep, some will go wide, some will do  
 neither. All may try to teach. Woe to those who get the latter.

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy - on Mahesh

[emptybill]

Randy,



You are showing a bit of naiveté about Vaj.



Now that you are feeling nice and relieved about NagaVaj's expansive
views please remember his method of turning around your post to imply
you had a poisoned intent. He demonstrated it just a few posts ago.



Post 220779 @ 01:12 p.m.

Vaj:
Randy, this is not a Maharishi list, it's for all
sorts of different people, but what most seem
to share in common is that at one time they
had some connection to TM, Mahesh, FF, etc.



I think it's pretty rude of YOU to assume that
all TMers are ignorant.





His reply was a typical Vaj snarl. It means you were pressing
uncomfortably close by your query into his real purpose for being here.



His suddenly gracious view misdirected you pretty well to another topic.
He is quite experienced at doing this here on the forum.







Randy said -



Hey vaj,



Why do you insist on calling Maharishi, Mahesh?



For whatever reason he went by that name (and I have read all the
various stories of whether the name was conferred officially or people
just started calling him that, or whatever the reason,) it was his name.
Its just disrespectful. No matter what what you think of him, it was his
name. By you (and others here) calling him Mahesh, it implies a variety
of things, such as he wasn't really a maharishi. or he wasn't really
a saint or even I know better who really was etc. Give it up.



Do you really think he did not help many, many people in the world and
therefore calling him a saint (which is the common expression for any of
these types of people in India) is not justified?



I think many of us here have some issues with some of the things he has
done, or the way he ran his organization etc., but still there is
nothing wrong with showing some respect.



Frankly, it makes you seem arrogant.


No matter what you think of him, show some respect





--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Randy Meltzer rm...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
 
  On Jun 4, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
 
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
  
  
   On Jun 4, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
  
   So Vaj, if you don't consider him a maharishi or a yogi, what
are
   you doing on this forum?   Do you feel its your job to somehow
   bring the light of knowledge to all us ignorant Tmers?
  
   Randy, this is not a Maharishi list, it's for all sorts of
different
   people, but what most seem to share in common is that at one time
   they had some connection to TM, Mahesh, FF, etc.
  
   I think it's pretty rude of YOU to assume that all TMers are
   ignorant.
  
   What I meant by us ignorant TMers is the fact that your posts
   mostly seem to be saying that you have more knowledge and
experience
   that most TMers, or at least the ones here.  And to say this list
is
   not a Maharishi list is ridiculous.  Sure its not an oficial TMo
   list, but the reason pretty much everyone is on here is because
they
   have had, or do have a connection to TM
 
  I've found the type of people who learned TM in the past (and I'm
sure
  the same now) to be very learned in many different fields, and many
  went on to profoundly represent any number of paths and
realizations.
  I think this is true of many spiritual trips, they tend to draw a
very
  high caliber person IMO.
 
  You should not get so up tight when we ruthlessly look into why
  someone has a name they have or whatever it is. We owe it to history
  to try to arrive at definite, honest answers for these questions.
  There's a reason these answers have been hidden. Being happy with
just
  an advertising buy-line veneer is insane. The truth is often
stranger,
  but definitely better than fiction. We should not settle for less,
  whether it's the Maharishi or Swami Rama boning their students or
  Swami Muktananda experimenting on 16 year olds or some Buddhist
  nutcase pumping Sarin gas into the Tokyo subways or some priest
anally
  raping young boys or Chogyam Trungpa drunk out of mind extolling
  dharma. Veritas liberat.
 
  At the same time, it's also worth contemplating the bizarre paradox
  these things represent and the good some of these folks were to able
  catalyze. What's up with THAT? Who are the divine madmen and who are
  the merely mad and avaricious? These are all great questions.
 
 I agree, great questions?

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy - on Mahesh

[Randy Meltzer]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptyb...@... wrote:
Yes Bill.  I have noticed in some of Vaj's back and forth posts with me, he 
seems to start to try to start a point but doesn't respond to what I further 
bring up. Its like he is good at saying what he has to say, but can't really 
defend it well.

And vaj, I don't know who your teachers/gurus are, but I am sure they have 
meaning to you.  How would you like it if I called them by their given names 
instead of the spiritual names they were given?

The fact that you don;t think Maharishi was a Maharishi or a Yogi certanly 
disagrees with many other saints in India who think he was.  My point is you 
are entitled to your opinion and actually I like to try to respect it, but I 
can't see why you have  to keep pushing on this forum.  Every time you call him 
Mahesh instead of Maharishi its like you have to exercise your ego and say to 
everyone that you opinion of him has to be offered again and again.  Can't you 
give it up already?  This was my original point.
 
 Randy,
 
 
 
 You are showing a bit of naiveté about Vaj.
 
 
 
 Now that you are feeling nice and relieved about NagaVaj's expansive
 views please remember his method of turning around your post to imply
 you had a poisoned intent. He demonstrated it just a few posts ago.
 
 
 
 Post 220779 @ 01:12 p.m.
 
 Vaj:
 Randy, this is not a Maharishi list, it's for all
 sorts of different people, but what most seem
 to share in common is that at one time they
 had some connection to TM, Mahesh, FF, etc.
 
 
 
 I think it's pretty rude of YOU to assume that
 all TMers are ignorant.
 
 
 
 
 
 His reply was a typical Vaj snarl. It means you were pressing
 uncomfortably close by your query into his real purpose for being here.
 
 
 
 His suddenly gracious view misdirected you pretty well to another topic.
 He is quite experienced at doing this here on the forum.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Randy said -
 
 
 
 Hey vaj,
 
 
 
 Why do you insist on calling Maharishi, Mahesh?
 
 
 
 For whatever reason he went by that name (and I have read all the
 various stories of whether the name was conferred officially or people
 just started calling him that, or whatever the reason,) it was his name.
 Its just disrespectful. No matter what what you think of him, it was his
 name. By you (and others here) calling him Mahesh, it implies a variety
 of things, such as he wasn't really a maharishi. or he wasn't really
 a saint or even I know better who really was etc. Give it up.
 
 
 
 Do you really think he did not help many, many people in the world and
 therefore calling him a saint (which is the common expression for any of
 these types of people in India) is not justified?
 
 
 
 I think many of us here have some issues with some of the things he has
 done, or the way he ran his organization etc., but still there is
 nothing wrong with showing some respect.
 
 
 
 Frankly, it makes you seem arrogant.
 
 
 No matter what you think of him, show some respect
 
 
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Randy Meltzer rm108@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
  
  
   On Jun 4, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
  
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
   
   
On Jun 4, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
   
So Vaj, if you don't consider him a maharishi or a yogi, what
 are
you doing on this forum?   Do you feel its your job to somehow
bring the light of knowledge to all us ignorant Tmers?
   
Randy, this is not a Maharishi list, it's for all sorts of
 different
people, but what most seem to share in common is that at one time
they had some connection to TM, Mahesh, FF, etc.
   
I think it's pretty rude of YOU to assume that all TMers are
ignorant.
   
What I meant by us ignorant TMers is the fact that your posts
mostly seem to be saying that you have more knowledge and
 experience
that most TMers, or at least the ones here.  And to say this list
 is
not a Maharishi list is ridiculous.  Sure its not an oficial TMo
list, but the reason pretty much everyone is on here is because
 they
have had, or do have a connection to TM
  
   I've found the type of people who learned TM in the past (and I'm
 sure
   the same now) to be very learned in many different fields, and many
   went on to profoundly represent any number of paths and
 realizations.
   I think this is true of many spiritual trips, they tend to draw a
 very
   high caliber person IMO.
  
   You should not get so up tight when we ruthlessly look into why
   someone has a name they have or whatever it is. We owe it to history
   to try to arrive at definite, honest answers for these questions.
   There's a reason these answers have been hidden. Being happy with
 just
   an advertising buy-line veneer is insane. The truth is often
 stranger,
   but definitely better than fiction. We should not settle for less,
   whether it's the 

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy - on Mahesh

[Randy Meltzer]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Randy Meltzer rm...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:


Hey Vaj,
I forgot to mention in my previous post that I had a meeting with 
Shankaracharya Swaroopananda who as you may know is the other person claiming 
to be the Shankaracharya of Jyotir math and had that famous interview with 
kropinsky about Maharishi and how he feels about him (you probably know he 
doesn't like him at all).  What was interesting was that he referred to MMY as 
Maharishiji many. many times.  Just thought you should know that even someone 
like swaroopananda still used his proper name.
And while I am on the subject of Shankaracharya, a while ago you called 
vasudevaanda a bought shankaracharya.  When I posted that I knew from Deepak 
Chopra that he was not bought (MMY did give him some funds but extremly little) 
and that he told MMY that he would do he wanted even if it was different than 
what MMY wanted him to do, you never acknowledged this fact.  You still going 
to push this untruth that Vasudevanada was bought?  Just wondering ?






 Yes Bill.  I have noticed in some of Vaj's back and forth posts with me, he 
 seems to start to try to start a point but doesn't respond to what I further 
 bring up. Its like he is good at saying what he has to say, but can't really 
 defend it well.
 
 And vaj, I don't know who your teachers/gurus are, but I am sure they have 
 meaning to you.  How would you like it if I called them by their given names 
 instead of the spiritual names they were given?
 
 The fact that you don;t think Maharishi was a Maharishi or a Yogi certanly 
 disagrees with many other saints in India who think he was.  My point is you 
 are entitled to your opinion and actually I like to try to respect it, but I 
 can't see why you have  to keep pushing on this forum.  Every time you call 
 him Mahesh instead of Maharishi its like you have to exercise your ego and 
 say to everyone that you opinion of him has to be offered again and again.  
 Can't you give it up already?  This was my original point.
  
  Randy,
  
  
  
  You are showing a bit of naiveté about Vaj.
  
  
  
  Now that you are feeling nice and relieved about NagaVaj's expansive
  views please remember his method of turning around your post to imply
  you had a poisoned intent. He demonstrated it just a few posts ago.
  
  
  
  Post 220779 @ 01:12 p.m.
  
  Vaj:
  Randy, this is not a Maharishi list, it's for all
  sorts of different people, but what most seem
  to share in common is that at one time they
  had some connection to TM, Mahesh, FF, etc.
  
  
  
  I think it's pretty rude of YOU to assume that
  all TMers are ignorant.
  
  
  
  
  
  His reply was a typical Vaj snarl. It means you were pressing
  uncomfortably close by your query into his real purpose for being here.
  
  
  
  His suddenly gracious view misdirected you pretty well to another topic.
  He is quite experienced at doing this here on the forum.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Randy said -
  
  
  
  Hey vaj,
  
  
  
  Why do you insist on calling Maharishi, Mahesh?
  
  
  
  For whatever reason he went by that name (and I have read all the
  various stories of whether the name was conferred officially or people
  just started calling him that, or whatever the reason,) it was his name.
  Its just disrespectful. No matter what what you think of him, it was his
  name. By you (and others here) calling him Mahesh, it implies a variety
  of things, such as he wasn't really a maharishi. or he wasn't really
  a saint or even I know better who really was etc. Give it up.
  
  
  
  Do you really think he did not help many, many people in the world and
  therefore calling him a saint (which is the common expression for any of
  these types of people in India) is not justified?
  
  
  
  I think many of us here have some issues with some of the things he has
  done, or the way he ran his organization etc., but still there is
  nothing wrong with showing some respect.
  
  
  
  Frankly, it makes you seem arrogant.
  
  
  No matter what you think of him, show some respect
  
  
  
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Randy Meltzer rm108@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
   
   
On Jun 4, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
   
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:


 On Jun 4, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:

 So Vaj, if you don't consider him a maharishi or a yogi, what
  are
 you doing on this forum?   Do you feel its your job to somehow
 bring the light of knowledge to all us ignorant Tmers?

 Randy, this is not a Maharishi list, it's for all sorts of
  different
 people, but what most seem to share in common is that at one time
 they had some connection to TM, Mahesh, FF, etc.

 I think it's pretty rude of YOU to assume that all TMers are
 ignorant.

   

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy or Kirk

[Kirk]

Billy, I am liking your style.  I am yoni-whipped alright.  
I like it that way.

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[ruthsimplicity]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Kirk kirk_bernha...@... wrote:

 So, I have anger at MMY and the TMO for fucking with the minds of my
  friends.  I have anger that the MMY was a guru to those close to him
  but left all the rank and file to deal with their own problems, like
  unstressing, while asking them to give all to the movement, making
  false and exaggerated claims to string them along until they were such
  true believers that will never give it up.   MMY was ultimately
  responsible for his movement.
 
  If MMY had stuck to 2 times 20 TM, I would be fine.  OK, it's a
  relaxation technique.  But this quest for the constitution of the
  universe or the unified field or perfect health or enlightenment,  or
  the strength of an elephant has gone nowhere fast.  Now the movement
  is filled with the over 50 crowd.  I hope it dies out. It is sick.
 
 
 
 -Actually, I have experiences from the TM Sidhis. I also don't
regret 
 all the money and time I spent on all that shit, to the tune of about 
 135,000 dollars now and growing. It has prevented me from developing a 
 materialistic mentality. I have though also been extremely lucky in
friends 
 and love. So I cannot judge, and I don't think being judgemental is the 
 particular answer Ruth to Maharishi and TMO and all the bogus stuff
piled on 
 top of the 20x2 which I agree was M's real acheivement, without
which, he 
 could not have competed with other gurus of the time, each of which has 
 their 'technique.'
 
 Some things TM are really good, like not messing with the mind, not 
 concentrating, etc, some things are almost therefore
contraindicatory like 
 yajnas jyotish gems, sidhis, all of which introduce expectation into
the 
 subtle mind.  So in some ways TM all together with the whole package
is very 
 negative, because it produces a state of constant expectation and
therefore 
 unfulfillment. You can see this dissatisfaction in many TMer's words
here.
 
 It was looking back on my entire development as a person that I have
seen 
 some influence of the sidhis.  Especially as regards the last five
sutras, 
 minus flying. As for being impatient as nowblowus has said, I did
the entire 
 TM package for close to half my life. that was good enough. Time to
move on. 
 Actually, I feel I was smart for unboarding from the Titanic before
it sank.
 
 I normally don't get into these pro-anti things but I hate the hoi
polloi 
 ganging up and bullying Vaj and others, some of who have always been my 
 favorite writers here. You give a little boy a hint of a sidhi and
watch 
 them gang up on others.


You may have the best attitude--don't polarize.  I agree, I don't like
the bullying, whether from the pro or anti crowd.  I'll try to avoid
it.  Thanks for helping me step back a bit. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy or Kirk

[emptybill]

Posted by: Kirk kirk_bernha...@cox.net 
http://us.f574.mail.yahoo.com/ym/compose?to=kirk_bernha...@cox.netSubj\
=%20Re%3A%20To%20Randy%20or%20Kirk   tripura_kirk 
http://profiles.yahoo.com/tripura_kirk   Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:16 am
(PST)
Billy, I am liking your style.  I am yoni-whipped alright.
I like it that way.



Kirk,



You can thank yourself. I have read and enjoyed your posts, including
their stream-of-mind presentation. As a result I decided it would be ok
for me to loosen up a bit with my own posts. I don't really have a
style – that's for writers.



Please don't misunderstand my comments to you. When I said, you
are a yoni, not a yogi I wasn't specifically talking about your
personality or life circumstances. How could I? You and I have never
met, at least in this life. I get the scent of some past connection
though. Maybe last life we both cruised the Kafurstendamm searching for
middle- eastern types to beat up. However, in this life we have never
shared a bottle of fine whiskey while trading linked verses back and
forth. That means I can only speculate.

So many tasks to perform, so little time to teleport into the heart of
the sun.



My actual meaning was that we are all yonis, which is a shakta view. We
are non-denominational vaginas waiting to be filled by god's
logoi-spermatikoi or seminal raisons or eidetic intelligences or
whatever you want to call them. Why else would we go out of our way to
get shaktipat except that we realized that behind our bravado we are
like bridal virgins, no manner how brutalized we have been treated or
have ourselves become.


I used to think we were all mother fuckers – Plato's fallen
souls coupling with matter (materia-mater). Now I'm not so sure. It
is not a gender definition but a condition of self-recognition, even
destiny. I remember back in the good `ole days, before material
worlds manifested, when we circled through the cosmos with the gods and
took our rest at the celestial banquet as two fisted soma drinkers. Now
look at us – puny little jivas trapped in organic coffins, all the
while self-proclaiming our luscious independence. Not really a man among
us – just happens that some of us have dicks and therefore try to
declare, I'm like Shiva.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy about Vaj

[Vaj]

On Feb 18, 2009, at 2:11 AM, raunchydog wrote:


emptybill, tHis explains a lot. Knowing the motivations and
affiliation of a would be interloper on FFLife helps level the playing
field. Thanks. Vaj is a Hare Krishna guy? Who knew? As he
hypocritically hides the identity of his affiliation, ashamed and
fearful of derision, he enjoys the catbird seat judging TM'ers.
Coward. I've visited the ISKCON Temple in Detroit a few times. They
serve a great lunch. They also serve up a thing or two on their
website that sounds like Vaj's POV: http://tinyurl.com/ckocau



I'm not a Hare Krishna guy, nor did I meet Kirk at a Dzogchen retreat,  
etc., etc. It's just all lies by Empty Bill.

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy about Vaj

[raunchydog]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:

 
 On Feb 18, 2009, at 2:11 AM, raunchydog wrote:
 
  emptybill, tHis explains a lot. Knowing the motivations and
  affiliation of a would be interloper on FFLife helps level the playing
  field. Thanks. Vaj is a Hare Krishna guy? Who knew? As he
  hypocritically hides the identity of his affiliation, ashamed and
  fearful of derision, he enjoys the catbird seat judging TM'ers.
  Coward. I've visited the ISKCON Temple in Detroit a few times. They
  serve a great lunch. They also serve up a thing or two on their
  website that sounds like Vaj's POV: http://tinyurl.com/ckocau
 
 
 I'm not a Hare Krishna guy, nor did I meet Kirk at a Dzogchen retreat,  
 etc., etc. It's just all lies by Empty Bill.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[Kirk]

Fact is, none of us experience what Maharishi priomised. Not a single 
lift-off ever in TMO. I know the two sons of a TM teacher and they lost 
respect for their own father for his believing, nay, not only beliving, but 
perpetuating the falsehood that TM Sidhas actually float.  To his own sons.

Now that TM teacher is out of sorts with the TM Movement and in complete 
denial of his former involvement, and he will not confess it to anyone 
except to those of us who already knew about him.

That's all not very good stuff to relate to.  His two sons lost faith in all 
things spiritual - hey, they had little faith to begin with, and the bogus 
promises of sidhis have estranged many persons.

Also, many other former TM teachers are wrought with regret now - I guess 
how soon they forget the recert process, and all the rest.

I cannot disagree with Vaj that persons got hurt by Maharishi.

Also, I cannot deny my own experience that TM was good for me right when I 
really needed it. Methinks people are sourcing Vaj as the center of problems 
when if one didn't have such doubts in the first place they wouldn't even 
know Vaj had said anything contrariwise to Maharishi in the first place.

The problem therefore is you and you and you, and you, for being sensitive 
for being ignorant of other teachings besides TM.  Fact is, I would have 
thought that any spiritual aspirants would never take any half truths for 
the whole truth. But then I prise truth above all else. (Except for love and 
friendship).
- Original Message - 
From: enlightened_dawn11 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:12 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy


 in other words Randy, Vaj will not take you at your word when you
 say your practice of TM has been everything that the Maharishi has
 promised. he will however take the merest hearsay, if negative about
 the practice of TM, and state it as fact here.

 he ends his post with a serious admonition about the damage TM does
 to its practitioners, while faithfully remaining silent regarding
 the genocide and cultural destruction wrought upon the countries
 presided over by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and other highly
 placed Buddhists.

 reminds me of that show on TV, 60 Minutes, always going after the
 small fry, but as for institionalized corruption and failure, they
 turn a blind eye.

 having said all of that, i am pleased to hear about your success
 with TM. as i have said on here before, it is those who have done TM
 the least who criticize it the most.

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:


 On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:26 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:

  What post or posts are you referring to Randy?
 
  I am referring to any and all posts where you seem to indicate
 that
  TM has no validity.

 I've never said that Randy. I do and will respond to posts as I
 please
 and if they contain inaccurate information on any number of
 subjects,
 I may respond, as I please with what I believe to be true. It's
 important to me, and I hope it is to you as well, to see that
 historical record is set straight and that means if I feel like
 responding to some misinformed notion or casually passed down
 myth, I
 may post what I believe is correct. I will not lie for you, sorry.
 If
 that bothers, you, then you might want to avoid my posts or this
 list
 then, but that's your decision Randy.

 There are TM lists which say only nice things, like the Fairfield
 Kiosk site. That sounds like it might be more up your alley.

   You either say it or infer it very often.
  Look Vaj, I don't want to seem like a TM is the answer robot.
 I'm
  not.  But after practicing it for 38 years, I can say without
  hesitation that the depth of my experience is profound and
 therefore
  to me, TM is as valid a practice as any other spiritual program,
 and
  at least for me, better.  So this is why I am tired of you
 constantly
  trying to prove that it is less than Buddhism, tantra etc.  You
 are
  entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but at the same time
 why
  can't you respect the experiences and opinions of those of us who
  have found everything that Maharishi promised through it?


 Well I don't think that's the issue. People write things. I
 respond.
 If what they say is false, I may respond with the sweet or sour
 truth.
 If people don't like what I say, they should respond without ad
 hominem and debate the question at hand, but they should have
 some
 idea what they're talking about, not uncritically acquired beliefs.

 And I'm glad TM worked for you, I think that's great. I also, as
 I've
 said before, had relatively good experiences with TM (but I think
 you
 might have missed that post). I also shared what some of them
 were. I
 really don't buy that there are people who found everything that
 Maharishi promised through [TM], but I do believe there are
 people
 who do believe that. I have just not seen evidence

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[Kirk]

Many Nathas have this issue that they do not allow people to be ignorant, 
even if the person wishes to continue on thus.  It's a Nath thing.  Not a 
Buddhist thing. See you people really know very little. If you had however 
branched out onto other Yahoo groups, most notably Shakti_Sadhana then many 
of you could have learned about various lineages besides the non-lineage of 
Maharishi, which would have been good for your basic knowledge.  Instead 
some of you think Maharishi was a Wedic scholar, which is not the case. You 
also cannot tolerate people who cannot tolerate your ignorance. Fact is 
though, the basic assumptions around here are proof positive of very little 
study of Veda let alone Tantra, let alone Buddhism, let alone, don't even 
bother saying the word - Dzogchen.




- Original Message - 
From: enlightened_dawn11 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:59 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy


 in other words Randy, Vaj invalidates what you said, that the
 Maharishi has provided you with everything that he promised, and now
 Vaj says he didn't say that, that instead you are confused.

 its simple to Vaj, Randy, and it should be simple to you; all of us
 are wrong (eight posters at last count who have explicitly called
 this charlatan on his fundamentalism, and wondered aloud what he is
 doing here), and Vaj, the almightly, always-righty Vaj, is right!

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:


 On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:

  Vaj,
  You again have invalidated me and people like me with good
  experiences with TM.  You mentioned above that you don't really
 buy
  that there are people who have found everything that Maharishi
  promised through TM, even though they believe they have.  Again
 you
  are entitled to your opinion, but guess what.  I don'
 just Believe
  that I have experienced everything that Maharishi promised, I
 have
  actually experienced it!   Why can't you accept that You
  inability to accept this show how closed minded  and opinionated
 you
  are.  I don't need to go the more positive TM forums, I can
 take
  criticism and negativity toward TM and the organization.  I may
 even
  be the first person to acknowledge some of it.  But when someone
 like
  me comes along and says hey look TM works for me, you can't
 accept
  it.  Thats my point

 Then you need to re-read what I wrote, I'm glad it works for you
 and
 it's great that you enjoy your experiences--and no you're not
 first
 person to acknowledge problems, nor will you be the last.





 

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 fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

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[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[nablusoss1008]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Kirk kirk_bernha...@... wrote:

 Fact is, none of us experience what Maharishi priomised. Not a single 
 lift-off ever in TMO. 

Sorry mate, plenty of lift-off's. I done app 7 meters in one jump 
myself.

Yours, and many many others, problem is that you lack patience and more 
importantly; seriousness. 

Hovering is happening, albeit in the first stages for many serious 
students of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, but not from amateurs like you.

For some strange reason and good luck you bumped into a real Master. 
Since you didn't get instant gratification you moved on.

The Turq here is a good example; he moved on but got nowhere. Now 
he's in a limbo and spends most of his life writing 7 long posts 
against the TMO and Judy, probably the only intelligent woman he ever 
knew, every day on a forum almost noone reads and whines about his lack 
of funds because nobody gives him work.

He is on a dead-end road big time, and so are you.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[Kirk]

he appeared to be. Vaj was actually a Gaudiya Vaishnava disciple of one of the 
Hare Krsna ritvik-gurus who was still active here in America. Vaj was 
performing a task requested by his initiating guru, Srila Vijayadarshana dasa 
Goswami. The request was for Vaj to follow in the lead of prior Vaishnava 
followers to disrupt and refute the demonic Mayavadins, of whom they 
considered Maharishi to be the biggest. (Mayavadin is a Vaishnava term denoting 
someone believing everything is illusion.) 
  The basic technique of this practice is for the opponent (Vaj) to admix with 
the forum as a person with similar experiences. After people become comfortable 
with his flickering tongue, he then gradually introduces doubts and rebuttals 
from a tradition that is somewhat similar (Buddhist) but which criticizes the 
one in which he is temporarily positioned (Advaita Vedanta). The sole purpose 
is to unlatch people from their familiarity with their own experiences (i.e. 
introducing doubt about everything) and then offering them a variant framework 
for understanding. The key here is not to be too precise but rather give 
generic notions of superior states and stations of spiritual development that 
are unavailable, except from another tradition. 

  The ironic premise of it all is hilarious. Serpentine Vaj is actually using 
an anti-cult deprogramming technique to free us from ourselves. First by trying 
to displace our belief in our direct with inveterate doubt (doubt for its own 
sake) and then secondly by offering us a way out through another path (any 
other path). Isn't it amazing what techniques the Hare Krsna devotees have 
learned from their anti-cult opponents? 

  So this is how Vaj developed and grew here on the forum. Vaj was just a 
little flickering coil at first but over time has become an Anti-Maharishi 
first responder, gigantic and ponderous - a hulk of vituperative antagonism.

  However, please don't think badly about Vaj and his task here on FFL. He 
really loves us. He just wants to separate us from our delusion about illusion 
- meaning about Maharishi and TM.

  He vowed it to his guru - you know like words of honor between a knight and 
his liege lord.




  Samaya Jah Jah Jah 



  --Vaj a Vaishnava?  That's a new one.  Just so you all know, so as to 
refute, since he must have some position, you should all accept him as a Natha 
of the original Navanath tradition.  As such I was friends with a friend of his 
guru in a past life that I remember all too well. Navanaths are Hindu - 
sometimes Buddhist or bordering both and believe in no supreme lord or 
personality beyond that of the founding fishy one of Navanaths and sometimes 
Guru Datta or Bhaskaraya. Vaj may refute me if he likes. If I am mistaken then 
I stand to be corrected.  Some Nathas dislike Buddhism and extremely dislike 
the Nyingma tradition. They mistakenly think that Dzogpachenpos are trying to 
dissolve the essential drops and tigles when this is simply not the case. Some 
Naths may exist in any other dimension of tradition or not, as it's all a 
matter of will to them - Take your Jah Jah Jah and add a 93

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[yifuxero]

--another type of flying: (where Rajinder Singh says what a thrill 
it is to fly at supersonic speed...) referring to the Sidhi of 
controled out of body travel:
http://www.bealenet.com/~jmcfall/Rajinder.htm





- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Kirk kirk_bernhardt@ 
wrote:
 
  Fact is, none of us experience what Maharishi priomised. Not a 
single 
  lift-off ever in TMO. 
 
 Sorry mate, plenty of lift-off's. I done app 7 meters in one jump 
 myself.
 
 Yours, and many many others, problem is that you lack patience and 
more 
 importantly; seriousness. 
 
 Hovering is happening, albeit in the first stages for many serious 
 students of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, but not from amateurs like you.
 
 For some strange reason and good luck you bumped into a real 
Master. 
 Since you didn't get instant gratification you moved on.
 
 The Turq here is a good example; he moved on but got nowhere. Now 
 he's in a limbo and spends most of his life writing 7 long posts 
 against the TMO and Judy, probably the only intelligent woman he 
ever 
 knew, every day on a forum almost noone reads and whines about his 
lack 
 of funds because nobody gives him work.
 
 He is on a dead-end road big time, and so are you.

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[boo_lives]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Kirk kirk_bernhardt@ wrote:
 
  Fact is, none of us experience what Maharishi priomised. Not a single 
  lift-off ever in TMO. 
 
 Sorry mate, plenty of lift-off's. I done app 7 meters in one jump 
 myself.
 
 Yours, and many many others, problem is that you lack patience and more 
 importantly; seriousness. 
 
 Hovering is happening, albeit in the first stages for many serious 
 students of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, but not from amateurs like you.
 
 For some strange reason and good luck you bumped into a real Master. 
 Since you didn't get instant gratification you moved on.
 
 The Turq here is a good example; he moved on but got nowhere. Now 
 he's in a limbo and spends most of his life writing 7 long posts 
 against the TMO and Judy, probably the only intelligent woman he ever 
 knew, every day on a forum almost noone reads and whines about his lack 
 of funds because nobody gives him work.
 
 He is on a dead-end road big time, and so are you.

OK Judy, prove you're not a TB, or ignore the amazing lies in the above.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[Peter]

--- On Wed, 2/18/09, nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote:

 
 
 Sorry mate, plenty of lift-off's. I done app 7 meters
 in one jump 
 myself.

Nabs! What did Mother Divine tell you about fibbing? hmmm?











  

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[ruthsimplicity]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, boo_lives boo_li...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Kirk kirk_bernhardt@ wrote:
  
   Fact is, none of us experience what Maharishi priomised. Not a
single 
   lift-off ever in TMO. 
  
  Sorry mate, plenty of lift-off's. I done app 7 meters in one jump 
  myself.
  
  Yours, and many many others, problem is that you lack patience and
more 
  importantly; seriousness. 
  
  Hovering is happening, albeit in the first stages for many serious 
  students of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, but not from amateurs like you.
  
  For some strange reason and good luck you bumped into a real Master. 
  Since you didn't get instant gratification you moved on.
  
  The Turq here is a good example; he moved on but got nowhere. Now 
  he's in a limbo and spends most of his life writing 7 long posts 
  against the TMO and Judy, probably the only intelligent woman he ever 
  knew, every day on a forum almost noone reads and whines about his
lack 
  of funds because nobody gives him work.
  
  He is on a dead-end road big time, and so are you.
 
 OK Judy, prove you're not a TB, or ignore the amazing lies in the above.



The last time Nabby made this claim it was for a jump of about 10
yards.  Seven meters, ten yards, either way a long ways.  I said that
Nabby was either delusional (maybe a bit of group hysteria) or lying.
  I was criticized for using the word delusional.  However, no one
would come out and say out right that they believed the hop, jump or
fly was anywhere close to 10 yards.  So I think delusional fits.  Or
he lies.  Who knows, I can't get in his head.  But based on my
knowledge of how the world works, and based on the fact that no-one
has shown that Newtonian physics does not apply to the gross level of
the body, I do not believe that there was a jump, hop, fly or
levitation of 7 meters or 10 yards.  

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[ruthsimplicity]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Kirk kirk_bernha...@... wrote:

 Fact is, none of us experience what Maharishi priomised. Not a single 
 lift-off ever in TMO. I know the two sons of a TM teacher and they lost 
 respect for their own father for his believing, nay, not only
beliving, but 
 perpetuating the falsehood that TM Sidhas actually float.  To his
own sons.
 
 Now that TM teacher is out of sorts with the TM Movement and in
complete 
 denial of his former involvement, and he will not confess it to anyone 
 except to those of us who already knew about him.
 
 That's all not very good stuff to relate to.  His two sons lost
faith in all 
 things spiritual - hey, they had little faith to begin with, and the
bogus 
 promises of sidhis have estranged many persons.
 
 Also, many other former TM teachers are wrought with regret now - I
guess 
 how soon they forget the recert process, and all the rest.
 
 I cannot disagree with Vaj that persons got hurt by Maharishi.
 
 Also, I cannot deny my own experience that TM was good for me right
when I 
 really needed it. Methinks people are sourcing Vaj as the center of
problems 
 when if one didn't have such doubts in the first place they wouldn't
even 
 know Vaj had said anything contrariwise to Maharishi in the first place.
 
 The problem therefore is you and you and you, and you, for being
sensitive 
 for being ignorant of other teachings besides TM.  Fact is, I would
have 
 thought that any spiritual aspirants would never take any half
truths for 
 the whole truth. But then I prise truth above all else. (Except for
love and 
 friendship).



I started here  a year or so ago, exploring how I felt about TM, my
true believer friends, and what I left behind.  I found myself
realizing that I am actually highly annoyed with the TMO and the whole
siddhis thing.  I see the real harm in my TB friends, who engage in
superstitious thinking about all sorts of things.  For example, 
demanding no proof of safety or effectiveness from Maharishi Ayurveda
but demanding the highest level of proof for modern medicine.  I see
them hopping away, never to fly, but believing that they are saving
the world for $700 a month. I see them suffering chronic, even likely
fatal illnesses that meditation will not cure, but they firmly believe
that a cure is near. I see them spending thousands on yagyas, charts,
and supplements. They do my chart and have yagyas done for me as well,
much to my dismay as I hate to see the money spent. And I have to keep
my mouth mostly shut or I will lose them entirely. 

So, I have anger at MMY and the TMO for fucking with the minds of my
friends.  I have anger that the MMY was a guru to those close to him
but left all the rank and file to deal with their own problems, like
unstressing, while asking them to give all to the movement, making
false and exaggerated claims to string them along until they were such
true believers that will never give it up.   MMY was ultimately
responsible for his movement.  

If MMY had stuck to 2 times 20 TM, I would be fine.  OK, it's a
relaxation technique.  But this quest for the constitution of the
universe or the unified field or perfect health or enlightenment,  or
the strength of an elephant has gone nowhere fast.  Now the movement
is filled with the over 50 crowd.  I hope it dies out. It is sick.

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, boo_lives boo_li...@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ 
wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Kirk kirk_bernhardt@ 
wrote:
  
   Fact is, none of us experience what Maharishi
   priomised. Not a single lift-off ever in TMO. 
  
  Sorry mate, plenty of lift-off's. I done app 7
  meters in one jump myself.
  
  Yours, and many many others, problem is that you
  lack patience and more importantly; seriousness. 
  
  Hovering is happening, albeit in the first stages
  for many serious students of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,
  but not from amateurs like you.
  
  For some strange reason and good luck you bumped
  into a real Master. Since you didn't get instant
  gratification you moved on.
  
  The Turq here is a good example; he moved on but
  got nowhere. Now he's in a limbo and spends most
  of his life writing 7 long posts against the TMO
  and Judy, probably the only intelligent woman he
  ever knew, every day on a forum almost noone reads
  and whines about his lack of funds because nobody
  gives him work.
  
  He is on a dead-end road big time, and so are you.
 
 OK Judy, prove you're not a TB, or ignore the amazing
 lies in the above.

Oh, I dunno, Boo. I've already called Nabby out for
claiming Barry and Vaj were being sponsored for their
TM-critic roles here (did you miss my post on that?).

I think I'll wait to chastise him again until somebody
from the TM-critic faction manages to get it up to give
Barry a good castigating for the lies *he* tells.

Goodness knows there's vastly more material from Barry
offering such opportunities than there is from Nabby.
But somehow Barry gets to tell lie after lie after 
vicious lie without a peep from the TM-critic side,
while you all wipe the floor with Nabby when he comes
out once in a while with a few pallid fantasies like
these.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[Kirk]

Sorry nowblowus, but I'm an MIU grad and I was on Purusha for a year and I 
was at MIU when they had 9,000 people, and what can you say to that?

- Original Message - 
From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 2:59 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Kirk kirk_bernha...@... wrote:

 Fact is, none of us experience what Maharishi priomised. Not a single
 lift-off ever in TMO.

 Sorry mate, plenty of lift-off's. I done app 7 meters in one jump
 myself.

 Yours, and many many others, problem is that you lack patience and more
 importantly; seriousness.

 Hovering is happening, albeit in the first stages for many serious
 students of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, but not from amateurs like you.

 For some strange reason and good luck you bumped into a real Master.
 Since you didn't get instant gratification you moved on.

 The Turq here is a good example; he moved on but got nowhere. Now
 he's in a limbo and spends most of his life writing 7 long posts
 against the TMO and Judy, probably the only intelligent woman he ever
 knew, every day on a forum almost noone reads and whines about his lack
 of funds because nobody gives him work.

 He is on a dead-end road big time, and so are you.



 

 To subscribe, send a message to:
 fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

 Or go to:
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
 and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[Kirk]

Not to mention Dude, that given your great sidhaness you believe in 
ludicrous imposters like Creme and other bogus neo-Theosophists. I take 
whatever you say and flip it upside down and backwards before I can ever 
even start to get it. I actually feel sorry for you.

- Original Message - 
From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 2:59 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Kirk kirk_bernha...@... wrote:

 Fact is, none of us experience what Maharishi priomised. Not a single
 lift-off ever in TMO.

 Sorry mate, plenty of lift-off's. I done app 7 meters in one jump
 myself.

 Yours, and many many others, problem is that you lack patience and more
 importantly; seriousness.

 Hovering is happening, albeit in the first stages for many serious
 students of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, but not from amateurs like you.

 For some strange reason and good luck you bumped into a real Master.
 Since you didn't get instant gratification you moved on.

 The Turq here is a good example; he moved on but got nowhere. Now
 he's in a limbo and spends most of his life writing 7 long posts
 against the TMO and Judy, probably the only intelligent woman he ever
 knew, every day on a forum almost noone reads and whines about his lack
 of funds because nobody gives him work.

 He is on a dead-end road big time, and so are you.



 

 To subscribe, send a message to:
 fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

 Or go to:
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
 and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[Kirk]

So, I have anger at MMY and the TMO for fucking with the minds of my
 friends.  I have anger that the MMY was a guru to those close to him
 but left all the rank and file to deal with their own problems, like
 unstressing, while asking them to give all to the movement, making
 false and exaggerated claims to string them along until they were such
 true believers that will never give it up.   MMY was ultimately
 responsible for his movement.

 If MMY had stuck to 2 times 20 TM, I would be fine.  OK, it's a
 relaxation technique.  But this quest for the constitution of the
 universe or the unified field or perfect health or enlightenment,  or
 the strength of an elephant has gone nowhere fast.  Now the movement
 is filled with the over 50 crowd.  I hope it dies out. It is sick.



-Actually, I have experiences from the TM Sidhis. I also don't regret 
all the money and time I spent on all that shit, to the tune of about 
135,000 dollars now and growing. It has prevented me from developing a 
materialistic mentality. I have though also been extremely lucky in friends 
and love. So I cannot judge, and I don't think being judgemental is the 
particular answer Ruth to Maharishi and TMO and all the bogus stuff piled on 
top of the 20x2 which I agree was M's real acheivement, without which, he 
could not have competed with other gurus of the time, each of which has 
their 'technique.'

Some things TM are really good, like not messing with the mind, not 
concentrating, etc, some things are almost therefore contraindicatory like 
yajnas jyotish gems, sidhis, all of which introduce expectation into the 
subtle mind.  So in some ways TM all together with the whole package is very 
negative, because it produces a state of constant expectation and therefore 
unfulfillment. You can see this dissatisfaction in many TMer's words here.

It was looking back on my entire development as a person that I have seen 
some influence of the sidhis.  Especially as regards the last five sutras, 
minus flying. As for being impatient as nowblowus has said, I did the entire 
TM package for close to half my life. that was good enough. Time to move on. 
Actually, I feel I was smart for unboarding from the Titanic before it sank.

I normally don't get into these pro-anti things but I hate the hoi polloi 
ganging up and bullying Vaj and others, some of who have always been my 
favorite writers here. You give a little boy a hint of a sidhi and watch 
them gang up on others. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy or Kirk

[billy jim]

Kirk, you need to check out your keyboard. You keep typing in navanath when you 
are obviously trying to hit naganath.

The fact is that Vaj denied being a Gaudiya Vaishnava but not being a naga. It 
was very revealing. But then he has no sense of humor. In this way Vaj reminds 
me of Baptist Jimmy Carter. Back in the late '70, we realized how could we 
ever have trusted a president who wasn't a two fisted drinker. Vaj proves 
himself similar. I try and throw the guy an absurb but tasty vignette - just to 
give him a way to creatively play off his negative depictions here and prove 
that he is not the viciously doctinare man he appears to be. What does he do? 
Returns to his naga-kaya in the next few posts. What greater display of ego 
absorbtion is needed? 

Vaj throws doubt on everything else but believes firmly in himself. That is why 
he was unable to get it. Judy certainly got it and she doesn't even like Vaj. 
If we accord ourselves in this way then we have no basis to complain when the 
Yidam throws us across multiple lifetimes in utter distain. Navanath my ass. 

You appear to have become intoxicated with the bitches running the cosmos. 
However, the fact is that you don't seem to admitt they aren't running it for 
you. The shaktis are not concerned with you. Your assumptions about them are 
sentimental delusions. You are a yoni not a yogi. 

Don't like how I'm addressing you? Unlike you and Vaj, I'm not talking 
figuratively. I work in a hospital, bub. Every day I watch the shaktis perform 
their dance. Most are wrapped up in ordinary consciousness - they just help 
people in distress and remain within that domain. Even then they give 100's of 
times more genuine human help to real people then either of us with our big-ass 
bodhisattva vows. 

Only that is not all. Some of them are nuns. Dressed like the rest of us they 
are utterly invisible - that is until you interact with them. Try as I might I 
have never been able to shake even one of them. And I should know how since I 
spent three years in a Russian Orthodox Monastery. What I found were women so 
unshakeable, yet still awake and open, that I couldn't fool them or get a grip 
long enough to shake their bodhi tree. These are real flesh and blood shaktis 
with shtiti prajna. They possess shocking sensitivity without even a trace of 
sentimentality. 

These are the kinds of shakits you lustfully talk about (shri yantra and all) 
but the reality is that they just jack off petty sadhakas to keep them absorbed 
and asleep in the dream. Like the Valkyies however, they don't accept the 
aparads of the transgressors - they just cut their arotas and send them into 
the beyond as offering for the universal agni-hotra.

Samaya Jah Jah Jah 








--Vaj a Vaishnava? That's a new one. Just so you all know, so as to 
refute, since he must have some position, you should all accept him as a Natha 
of the original Navanath tradition. As such I was friends with a friend of his 
guru in a past life that I remember all too well. Navanaths are Hindu - 
sometimes Buddhist or bordering both and believe in no supreme lord or 
personality beyond that of the founding fishy one of Navanaths and sometimes 
Guru Datta or Bhaskaraya. Vaj may refute me if he likes. If I am mistaken then 
I stand to be corrected. Some Nathas dislike Buddhism and extremely dislike the 
Nyingma tradition. They mistakenly think that Dzogpachenpos are trying to 
dissolve the essential drops and tigles when this is simply not the case. Some 
Naths may exist in any other dimension of tradition or not, as it's all a 
matter of will to them - Take your Jah Jah Jah and add a 93
   

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy or Kirk

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, billy jim emptyb...@... wrote:

snip
 Vaj throws doubt on everything else but believes
 firmly in himself. That is why he was unable to
 get it. Judy certainly got it and she doesn't even
 like Vaj.

FWIW, both ed11 and raunchydog also got it.
And neither of them like Vaj either, needless
to say.

It's enormously amusing that the TM critics 
(including Vaj himself) have been wailing and
gnashing their teeth about the vicious lies
being told about poor Vaj, while three of the
supposedly gullible, brain-dead, feeble-minded,
paranoid, humorless TMers (female ones, at
that!) had no trouble recognizing and 
appreciating the tale for the clever send-up
it was.

Well done, emptybill.

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy or Kirk

[enlightened_dawn11]

emptybill's writing is like a spoken tapestry in its richness. really
first class stuff- vibrant and lively and funny as hell!

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, billy jim emptybill@ wrote:
 
 snip
  Vaj throws doubt on everything else but believes
  firmly in himself. That is why he was unable to
  get it. Judy certainly got it and she doesn't even
  like Vaj.
 
 FWIW, both ed11 and raunchydog also got it.
 And neither of them like Vaj either, needless
 to say.
 
 It's enormously amusing that the TM critics 
 (including Vaj himself) have been wailing and
 gnashing their teeth about the vicious lies
 being told about poor Vaj, while three of the
 supposedly gullible, brain-dead, feeble-minded,
 paranoid, humorless TMers (female ones, at
 that!) had no trouble recognizing and 
 appreciating the tale for the clever send-up
 it was.
 
 Well done, emptybill.

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy or Kirk

[emptybill]

Y'all are embarrassing me a bit. Better be careful. I could end up
super-heady like Vaj or swinging roundhouse punches at the shadows on
the wall like Kirk.

On the other hand, maybe not. Sister Caroline, up on the 4th floor
nursing unit, detects even the slightest imbalance and bring me back
to the middle - which in her case means a sense of gratefulness about
my human lifetime. If it wasn't for people like these I might be lost
in my own self-referencing. And this doesn't mean self-referral awareness.

That's why people who go on about the shakti-s demonstrate that they
only know one side of the affair and in this case it is only the side
that pleasures them.

Maybe that's why I loved The End of the Affair by Graham Greene. It
demonstrates, incontrovertibly, that the holiness of the shakti-s is
found not only in their passion but also in their dispassion. This
indeed is a sobering insight. Especially for anyone doing any form of
yoga. 

By the way - sorry Judy for the jarring hyphens. I'll make it up to
you sometime with an advance toward some kind of rigor. 



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11
no_re...@... wrote:

 emptybill's writing is like a spoken tapestry in its richness. really
 first class stuff- vibrant and lively and funny as hell!
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, billy jim emptybill@ wrote:
  
  snip
   Vaj throws doubt on everything else but believes
   firmly in himself. That is why he was unable to
   get it. Judy certainly got it and she doesn't even
   like Vaj.
  
  FWIW, both ed11 and raunchydog also got it.
  And neither of them like Vaj either, needless
  to say.
  
  It's enormously amusing that the TM critics 
  (including Vaj himself) have been wailing and
  gnashing their teeth about the vicious lies
  being told about poor Vaj, while three of the
  supposedly gullible, brain-dead, feeble-minded,
  paranoid, humorless TMers (female ones, at
  that!) had no trouble recognizing and 
  appreciating the tale for the clever send-up
  it was.
  
  Well done, emptybill.
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy or Kirk

[enlightened_dawn11]

thanks again-- i'll just be quiet now and enjoy your writing in 
silence for awhile.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptyb...@... 
wrote:

 Y'all are embarrassing me a bit. Better be careful. I could end up
 super-heady like Vaj or swinging roundhouse punches at the shadows 
on
 the wall like Kirk.
 
 On the other hand, maybe not. Sister Caroline, up on the 4th floor
 nursing unit, detects even the slightest imbalance and bring me 
back
 to the middle - which in her case means a sense of gratefulness 
about
 my human lifetime. If it wasn't for people like these I might be 
lost
 in my own self-referencing. And this doesn't mean self-referral 
awareness.
 
 That's why people who go on about the shakti-s demonstrate that 
they
 only know one side of the affair and in this case it is only the 
side
 that pleasures them.
 
 Maybe that's why I loved The End of the Affair by Graham Greene. 
It
 demonstrates, incontrovertibly, that the holiness of the shakti-s 
is
 found not only in their passion but also in their dispassion. This
 indeed is a sobering insight. Especially for anyone doing any form 
of
 yoga. 
 
 By the way - sorry Judy for the jarring hyphens. I'll make it up to
 you sometime with an advance toward some kind of rigor. 
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11
 no_reply@ wrote:
 
  emptybill's writing is like a spoken tapestry in its richness. 
really
  first class stuff- vibrant and lively and funny as hell!
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, billy jim emptybill@ 
wrote:
   
   snip
Vaj throws doubt on everything else but believes
firmly in himself. That is why he was unable to
get it. Judy certainly got it and she doesn't even
like Vaj.
   
   FWIW, both ed11 and raunchydog also got it.
   And neither of them like Vaj either, needless
   to say.
   
   It's enormously amusing that the TM critics 
   (including Vaj himself) have been wailing and
   gnashing their teeth about the vicious lies
   being told about poor Vaj, while three of the
   supposedly gullible, brain-dead, feeble-minded,
   paranoid, humorless TMers (female ones, at
   that!) had no trouble recognizing and 
   appreciating the tale for the clever send-up
   it was.
   
   Well done, emptybill.
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[Randy Meltzer]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:

 
 On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:26 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
 
  What post or posts are you referring to Randy?
 
  I am referring to any and all posts where you seem to indicate 
that
  TM has no validity.
 
 I've never said that Randy. I do and will respond to posts as I 
please  
 and if they contain inaccurate information on any number of 
subjects,  
 I may respond, as I please with what I believe to be true. It's  
 important to me, and I hope it is to you as well, to see that  
 historical record is set straight and that means if I feel like  
 responding to some misinformed notion or casually passed down myth, 
I  
 may post what I believe is correct. I will not lie for you, sorry. 
If  
 that bothers, you, then you might want to avoid my posts or this 
list  
 then, but that's your decision Randy.
 
 There are TM lists which say only nice things, like the Fairfield  
 Kiosk site. That sounds like it might be more up your alley.
 
   You either say it or infer it very often.
  Look Vaj, I don't want to seem like a TM is the answer robot.  
I'm
  not.  But after practicing it for 38 years, I can say without
  hesitation that the depth of my experience is profound and 
therefore
  to me, TM is as valid a practice as any other spiritual program, 
and
  at least for me, better.  So this is why I am tired of you 
constantly
  trying to prove that it is less than Buddhism, tantra etc.  You 
are
  entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but at the same time 
why
  can't you respect the experiences and opinions of those of us who
  have found everything that Maharishi promised through it?
 
 
 Well I don't think that's the issue. People write things. I 
respond.  
 If what they say is false, I may respond with the sweet or sour 
truth.  
 If people don't like what I say, they should respond without ad  
 hominem and debate the question at hand, but they should have some  
 idea what they're talking about, not uncritically acquired beliefs.
 
 And I'm glad TM worked for you, I think that's great. I also, as 
I've  
 said before, had relatively good experiences with TM (but I think 
you  
 might have missed that post). I also shared what some of them were. 
I  
 really don't buy that there are people who found everything that  
 Maharishi promised through [TM], but I do believe there are 
people  
 who do believe that. I have just not seen evidence that shows me,  
 based on my own intuition and experience, that this is the case. I 
am  
 open to the fact that I may be wrong.
 
 The other issue is one of damage to people. I won't go into this 
in  
 detail, but for me, it's really the crux of the matter. To even  
 mention it here, is to set off a firestorm of ad hominem and 
negative  
 posts. But if it does happen (it has) it should be able to be  
 discussed openly and freely so that others need not suffer.

Vaj,
You again have invalidated me and people like me with good 
experiences with TM.  You mentioned above that you don't really buy 
that there are people who have found everything that Maharishi 
promised through TM, even though they believe they have.  Again you 
are entitled to your opinion, but guess what.  I don' just Believe 
that I have experienced everything that Maharishi promised, I have 
actually experienced it!   Why can't you accept that You 
inability to accept this show how closed minded  and opinionated you 
are.  I don't need to go the more positive TM forums, I can take 
criticism and negativity toward TM and the organization.  I may even 
be the first person to acknowledge some of it.  But when someone like 
me comes along and says hey look TM works for me, you can't accept 
it.  Thats my point

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[enlightened_dawn11]

in other words Randy, Vaj will not take you at your word when you 
say your practice of TM has been everything that the Maharishi has 
promised. he will however take the merest hearsay, if negative about 
the practice of TM, and state it as fact here. 

he ends his post with a serious admonition about the damage TM does 
to its practitioners, while faithfully remaining silent regarding 
the genocide and cultural destruction wrought upon the countries 
presided over by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and other highly 
placed Buddhists.

reminds me of that show on TV, 60 Minutes, always going after the  
small fry, but as for institionalized corruption and failure, they 
turn a blind eye.

having said all of that, i am pleased to hear about your success 
with TM. as i have said on here before, it is those who have done TM 
the least who criticize it the most.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:

 
 On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:26 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
 
  What post or posts are you referring to Randy?
 
  I am referring to any and all posts where you seem to indicate 
that
  TM has no validity.
 
 I've never said that Randy. I do and will respond to posts as I 
please  
 and if they contain inaccurate information on any number of 
subjects,  
 I may respond, as I please with what I believe to be true. It's  
 important to me, and I hope it is to you as well, to see that  
 historical record is set straight and that means if I feel like  
 responding to some misinformed notion or casually passed down 
myth, I  
 may post what I believe is correct. I will not lie for you, sorry. 
If  
 that bothers, you, then you might want to avoid my posts or this 
list  
 then, but that's your decision Randy.
 
 There are TM lists which say only nice things, like the Fairfield  
 Kiosk site. That sounds like it might be more up your alley.
 
   You either say it or infer it very often.
  Look Vaj, I don't want to seem like a TM is the answer robot.  
I'm
  not.  But after practicing it for 38 years, I can say without
  hesitation that the depth of my experience is profound and 
therefore
  to me, TM is as valid a practice as any other spiritual program, 
and
  at least for me, better.  So this is why I am tired of you 
constantly
  trying to prove that it is less than Buddhism, tantra etc.  You 
are
  entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but at the same time 
why
  can't you respect the experiences and opinions of those of us who
  have found everything that Maharishi promised through it?
 
 
 Well I don't think that's the issue. People write things. I 
respond.  
 If what they say is false, I may respond with the sweet or sour 
truth.  
 If people don't like what I say, they should respond without ad  
 hominem and debate the question at hand, but they should have 
some  
 idea what they're talking about, not uncritically acquired beliefs.
 
 And I'm glad TM worked for you, I think that's great. I also, as 
I've  
 said before, had relatively good experiences with TM (but I think 
you  
 might have missed that post). I also shared what some of them 
were. I  
 really don't buy that there are people who found everything that  
 Maharishi promised through [TM], but I do believe there are 
people  
 who do believe that. I have just not seen evidence that shows me,  
 based on my own intuition and experience, that this is the case. I 
am  
 open to the fact that I may be wrong.
 
 The other issue is one of damage to people. I won't go into this 
in  
 detail, but for me, it's really the crux of the matter. To even  
 mention it here, is to set off a firestorm of ad hominem and 
negative  
 posts. But if it does happen (it has) it should be able to be  
 discussed openly and freely so that others need not suffer.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[Arhata Osho]

reminds me of that show on TV, 60 Minutes, always going after the  

small fry, but as for institionalized corruption and failure, they 

turn a blind eye. Correction: 60 Minutes takes on many big stories

--- On Wed, 2/18/09, enlightened_dawn11 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote:












in other words Randy, Vaj will not take you at your word when you 

say your practice of TM has been everything that the Maharishi has 

promised. he will however take the merest hearsay, if negative about 

the practice of TM, and state it as fact here. 



he ends his post with a serious admonition about the damage TM does 

to its practitioners, while faithfully remaining silent regarding 

the genocide and cultural destruction wrought upon the countries 

presided over by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and other highly 

placed Buddhists.



reminds me of that show on TV, 60 Minutes, always going after the  

small fry, but as for institionalized corruption and failure, they 

turn a blind eye.



having said all of that, i am pleased to hear about your success 

with TM. as i have said on here before, it is those who have done TM 

the least who criticize it the most.



--- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, Vaj vajradhatu@ ... wrote:



 

 On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:26 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:

 

  What post or posts are you referring to Randy?

 

  I am referring to any and all posts where you seem to indicate 

that

  TM has no validity.

 

 I've never said that Randy. I do and will respond to posts as I 

please  

 and if they contain inaccurate information on any number of 

subjects,  

 I may respond, as I please with what I believe to be true. It's  

 important to me, and I hope it is to you as well, to see that  

 historical record is set straight and that means if I feel like  

 responding to some misinformed notion or casually passed down 

myth, I  

 may post what I believe is correct. I will not lie for you, sorry. 

If  

 that bothers, you, then you might want to avoid my posts or this 

list  

 then, but that's your decision Randy.

 

 There are TM lists which say only nice things, like the Fairfield  

 Kiosk site. That sounds like it might be more up your alley.

 

   You either say it or infer it very often.

  Look Vaj, I don't want to seem like a TM is the answer robot.  

I'm

  not.  But after practicing it for 38 years, I can say without

  hesitation that the depth of my experience is profound and 

therefore

  to me, TM is as valid a practice as any other spiritual program, 

and

  at least for me, better.  So this is why I am tired of you 

constantly

  trying to prove that it is less than Buddhism, tantra etc.  You 

are

  entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but at the same time 

why

  can't you respect the experiences and opinions of those of us who

  have found everything that Maharishi promised through it?

 

 

 Well I don't think that's the issue. People write things. I 

respond.  

 If what they say is false, I may respond with the sweet or sour 

truth.  

 If people don't like what I say, they should respond without ad  

 hominem and debate the question at hand, but they should have 

some  

 idea what they're talking about, not uncritically acquired beliefs.

 

 And I'm glad TM worked for you, I think that's great. I also, as 

I've  

 said before, had relatively good experiences with TM (but I think 

you  

 might have missed that post). I also shared what some of them 

were. I  

 really don't buy that there are people who found everything that  

 Maharishi promised through [TM], but I do believe there are 

people  

 who do believe that. I have just not seen evidence that shows me,  

 based on my own intuition and experience, that this is the case. I 

am  

 open to the fact that I may be wrong.

 

 The other issue is one of damage to people. I won't go into this 

in  

 detail, but for me, it's really the crux of the matter. To even  

 mention it here, is to set off a firestorm of ad hominem and 

negative  

 posts. But if it does happen (it has) it should be able to be  

 discussed openly and freely so that others need not suffer.






 

  




 

















  

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[Sal Sunshine]

On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:


Vaj,
You again have invalidated me and people like me with good
experiences with TM.  You mentioned above that you don't really buy
that there are people who have found everything that Maharishi
promised through TM, even though they believe they have.  Again you
are entitled to your opinion, but guess what.  I don' just Believe
that I have experienced everything that Maharishi promised, I have
actually experienced it!   Why can't you accept that You
inability to accept this show how closed minded  and opinionated you
are.  I don't need to go the more positive TM forums, I can take
criticism and negativity toward TM and the organization.  I may even
be the first person to acknowledge some of it.  But when someone like
me comes along and says hey look TM works for me, you can't accept
it.  Thats my point



Whether he can or can't, Randy, so what?
Why is Vaj's opinion so important to you?

Sal

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[Vaj]

On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:

 Vaj,
 You again have invalidated me and people like me with good
 experiences with TM.  You mentioned above that you don't really buy
 that there are people who have found everything that Maharishi
 promised through TM, even though they believe they have.  Again you
 are entitled to your opinion, but guess what.  I don' just Believe
 that I have experienced everything that Maharishi promised, I have
 actually experienced it!   Why can't you accept that You
 inability to accept this show how closed minded  and opinionated you
 are.  I don't need to go the more positive TM forums, I can take
 criticism and negativity toward TM and the organization.  I may even
 be the first person to acknowledge some of it.  But when someone like
 me comes along and says hey look TM works for me, you can't accept
 it.  Thats my point

Then you need to re-read what I wrote, I'm glad it works for you and  
it's great that you enjoy your experiences--and no you're not first  
person to acknowledge problems, nor will you be the last.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[Vaj]

On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:12 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote:

 in other words Randy, Vaj will not take you at your word when you
 say your practice of TM has been everything that the Maharishi has
 promised. he will however take the merest hearsay, if negative about
 the practice of TM, and state it as fact here.

Dawn, I hate to break it to ya kid, but you don't really speak for me,  
nor is what you state typically what I'm saying, what I feel or what I  
intend. You're responses seem to me to be emotional reactions from the  
attachment you have to certain ideas and/or states of mind.

 he ends his post with a serious admonition about the damage TM does
 to its practitioners, while faithfully remaining silent regarding
 the genocide and cultural destruction wrought upon the countries
 presided over by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and other highly
 placed Buddhists.

Dawn, crack a book every now and then, ok? The Dalai Lama didn't  
invade Tibet, the Chinese did. The Dalai Lama is not Superman nor was  
the Maharishi nor was Guru Dev.

It's also a false assumption of yours that I was speaking solely about  
damage TM does to its practitioners. That's not what I said.

I realize it's common among TM TB's to try to mischaracterize what  
people say or mean and then try to use that mischaracterization to  
attempt to convince others of your errant argument or game. I realize  
that it's important for you to attempt to demonize me and to poison  
the well of opinion so others may worship at your false scapegoat and  
image. That's fine, because it simply shows me that honesty and truth  
aren't as important as your attachment to states of mind and your  
beliefs in those states of mind. It shows your true colors. And just  
because you have company in such game-playing does not make it any  
right either.

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[enlightened_dawn11]

in other words Randy, Vaj invalidates what you said, that the 
Maharishi has provided you with everything that he promised, and now 
Vaj says he didn't say that, that instead you are confused. 

its simple to Vaj, Randy, and it should be simple to you; all of us 
are wrong (eight posters at last count who have explicitly called 
this charlatan on his fundamentalism, and wondered aloud what he is 
doing here), and Vaj, the almightly, always-righty Vaj, is right! 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote:

 
 On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
 
  Vaj,
  You again have invalidated me and people like me with good
  experiences with TM.  You mentioned above that you don't really 
buy
  that there are people who have found everything that Maharishi
  promised through TM, even though they believe they have.  Again 
you
  are entitled to your opinion, but guess what.  I don' 
just Believe
  that I have experienced everything that Maharishi promised, I 
have
  actually experienced it!   Why can't you accept that You
  inability to accept this show how closed minded  and opinionated 
you
  are.  I don't need to go the more positive TM forums, I can 
take
  criticism and negativity toward TM and the organization.  I may 
even
  be the first person to acknowledge some of it.  But when someone 
like
  me comes along and says hey look TM works for me, you can't 
accept
  it.  Thats my point
 
 Then you need to re-read what I wrote, I'm glad it works for you 
and  
 it's great that you enjoy your experiences--and no you're not 
first  
 person to acknowledge problems, nor will you be the last.

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[enlightened_dawn11]

lol- precisely Sal, and why is Randy's opinion so important to YOU?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine salsunsh...@... 
wrote:

 On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Randy Meltzer wrote:
 
  Vaj,
  You again have invalidated me and people like me with good
  experiences with TM.  You mentioned above that you don't really 
buy
  that there are people who have found everything that Maharishi
  promised through TM, even though they believe they have.  Again 
you
  are entitled to your opinion, but guess what.  I don' 
just Believe
  that I have experienced everything that Maharishi promised, I 
have
  actually experienced it!   Why can't you accept that You
  inability to accept this show how closed minded  and opinionated 
you
  are.  I don't need to go the more positive TM forums, I can 
take
  criticism and negativity toward TM and the organization.  I may 
even
  be the first person to acknowledge some of it.  But when someone 
like
  me comes along and says hey look TM works for me, you can't 
accept
  it.  Thats my point
 
 
 Whether he can or can't, Randy, so what?
 Why is Vaj's opinion so important to you?
 
 Sal

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy

[emptybill]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutp...@... wrote:

 Hey, I like Vaj. He and I have completely different takes on MMY, but
so what. Like the black and white cookie: world peace. And who is this
Randy Melzer anyway? Is he a Hare Krishna spy? How do we know for sure?
…



Hi Randy,

Welcome to the group. And we know you're not really a Hare Krsna.

Peter was just making an insider joke here (but not at your expense) so
don't take offence. In reality, Vaj is our actual Hare Krsna on the
forum and most of us know this by now. Don't get too stirred up here
when he attacks Maharishi and TM. He's just doing his job as he was
instructed and as he agreed.



Vaj came here at the invitation of Kirk Bernhardt after they met at a
Dzogchen retreat. Because he spoke the language of Dzogchen and Tantra,
Kirk thought Vaj was a Tantric-Dzogchen practitioner. Since Kirk was
getting into conceptual tussles with some people here, he decided he
could use someone with a similar background to back him up in
discussions. So he invited Vaj to the group to shake everyone up –
starting with Hey, look at my little friend, Vaj, curled up here in
my travel bag. Isn't he really cool man? Don't worry! He really
likes being with people. He'll just slither up around your neck and
wrap around it with a flickering kiss. You'll be like Lord Shiva
wearing his garland of serpents. So he talked and people were
willing to listen for a while, entertained by the little whispering Vaj.

What Kirk didn't realize was that Vaj was not the strident Buddhist
he appeared to be. Vaj was actually a Gaudiya Vaishnava disciple of one
of the Hare Krsna ritvik-gurus who was still active here in America. Vaj
was performing a task requested by his initiating guru, Srila
Vijayadarshana dasa Goswami. The request was for Vaj to follow in the
lead of prior Vaishnava followers to disrupt and refute the demonic
Mayavadins, of whom they considered Maharishi to be the
biggest. (Mayavadin is a Vaishnava term denoting someone believing
everything is illusion.)

The basic technique of this practice is for the opponent (Vaj) to admix
with the forum as a person with similar experiences. After people become
comfortable with his flickering tongue, he then gradually introduces
doubts and rebuttals from a tradition that is somewhat similar
(Buddhist) but which criticizes the one in which he is temporarily
positioned (Advaita Vedanta). The sole purpose is to unlatch people from
their familiarity with their own experiences (i.e. introducing doubt
about everything) and then offering them a variant framework for
understanding. The key here is not to be too precise but rather give
generic notions of superior states and stations of spiritual
development that are unavailable, except from another tradition.

The ironic premise of it all is hilarious. Serpentine Vaj is actually
using an anti-cult deprogramming technique to free us from ourselves.
First by trying to displace our belief in our direct with inveterate
doubt (doubt for its own sake) and then secondly by offering us a way
out through another path (any other path). Isn't it amazing what
techniques the Hare Krsna devotees have learned from their anti-cult
opponents?

So this is how Vaj developed and grew here on the forum. Vaj was just a
little flickering coil at first but over time has become an
Anti-Maharishi first responder, gigantic and ponderous – a hulk of
vituperative antagonism.

However, please don't think badly about Vaj and his task here on
FFL. He really loves us. He just wants to separate us from our delusion
about illusion – meaning about Maharishi and TM.

He vowed it to his guru – you know like words of honor between a
knight and his liege lord.



Samaya Jah Jah Jah

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy about Vaj

[enlightened_dawn11]

hats off to you emptybill! brilliant, entertaining and informative, 
all without sacrificing any of the three- 

i guess the reason Vaj doesn't post on here -all- the time is he is 
busy soliciting donations at the airport, and dancing on the 
sidewalk.

cheers!

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptyb...@... 
wrote:

 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ 
wrote:
 
  Hey, I like Vaj. He and I have completely different takes on 
MMY, but
 so what. Like the black and white cookie: world peace. And who is 
this
 Randy Melzer anyway? Is he a Hare Krishna spy? How do we know for 
sure?
 …
 
 
 
 Hi Randy,
 
 Welcome to the group. And we know you're not really a Hare Krsna.
 
 Peter was just making an insider joke here (but not at your 
expense) so
 don't take offence. In reality, Vaj is our actual Hare Krsna on the
 forum and most of us know this by now. Don't get too stirred up 
here
 when he attacks Maharishi and TM. He's just doing his job as he was
 instructed and as he agreed.
 
 
 
 Vaj came here at the invitation of Kirk Bernhardt after they met 
at a
 Dzogchen retreat. Because he spoke the language of Dzogchen and 
Tantra,
 Kirk thought Vaj was a Tantric-Dzogchen practitioner. Since Kirk 
was
 getting into conceptual tussles with some people here, he decided 
he
 could use someone with a similar background to back him up in
 discussions. So he invited Vaj to the group to shake everyone up –
 starting with Hey, look at my little friend, Vaj, curled up here 
in
 my travel bag. Isn't he really cool man? Don't worry! He really
 likes being with people. He'll just slither up around your neck and
 wrap around it with a flickering kiss. You'll be like Lord Shiva
 wearing his garland of serpents. So he talked and people were
 willing to listen for a while, entertained by the little 
whispering Vaj.
 
 What Kirk didn't realize was that Vaj was not the strident Buddhist
 he appeared to be. Vaj was actually a Gaudiya Vaishnava disciple 
of one
 of the Hare Krsna ritvik-gurus who was still active here in 
America. Vaj
 was performing a task requested by his initiating guru, Srila
 Vijayadarshana dasa Goswami. The request was for Vaj to follow in 
the
 lead of prior Vaishnava followers to disrupt and refute the demonic
 Mayavadins, of whom they considered Maharishi to be the
 biggest. (Mayavadin is a Vaishnava term denoting someone believing
 everything is illusion.)
 
 The basic technique of this practice is for the opponent (Vaj) to 
admix
 with the forum as a person with similar experiences. After people 
become
 comfortable with his flickering tongue, he then gradually 
introduces
 doubts and rebuttals from a tradition that is somewhat similar
 (Buddhist) but which criticizes the one in which he is temporarily
 positioned (Advaita Vedanta). The sole purpose is to unlatch 
people from
 their familiarity with their own experiences (i.e. introducing 
doubt
 about everything) and then offering them a variant framework for
 understanding. The key here is not to be too precise but rather 
give
 generic notions of superior states and stations of spiritual
 development that are unavailable, except from another tradition.
 
 The ironic premise of it all is hilarious. Serpentine Vaj is 
actually
 using an anti-cult deprogramming technique to free us from 
ourselves.
 First by trying to displace our belief in our direct experience 
with
 inveterate doubt (doubt for its own sake) and then secondly by 
offering
 us a way out through another path (any other path). Isn't it 
amazing
 what techniques the Hare Krsna devotees have learned from their
 anti-cult opponents?
 
 So this is how Vaj developed and grew here on the forum. Vaj was 
just a
 little flickering coil at first but over time has become an
 Anti-Maharishi first responder, gigantic and ponderous – a hulk of
 vituperative antagonism.
 
 However, please don't think badly about Vaj and his task here on
 FFL. He really loves us. He just wants to separate us from our 
delusion
 about illusion – meaning about Maharishi and TM.
 
 He vowed it to his guru – you know like words of honor between a
 knight and his liege lord.
 
 
 
 Samaya Jah Jah Jah

[FairfieldLife] Re: To Randy about Vaj

[raunchydog]

emptybill, tHis explains a lot. Knowing the motivations and
affiliation of a would be interloper on FFLife helps level the playing
field. Thanks. Vaj is a Hare Krishna guy? Who knew? As he
hypocritically hides the identity of his affiliation, ashamed and
fearful of derision, he enjoys the catbird seat judging TM'ers.
Coward. I've visited the ISKCON Temple in Detroit a few times. They
serve a great lunch. They also serve up a thing or two on their
website that sounds like Vaj's POV: http://tinyurl.com/ckocau

...The meditation business is flourishing these days. Modern-day
messiahs, gurus, and incarnations, with all varieties of
mantras, are a dime a dozen, as eager customers flock to the feet of
self-styled saviors...Some chic spiritual seekers pay a lot of money
for secret mantras that they believe will allow them to perform mystic
feats. But the Vedic literatures issue stern warnings about charlatan
gurus and bogus mantras.

If a person is actually serious about spiritual life, he or she must
come in contact with a bona fide spiritual master and learn from him
the science of Krsna consciousness. The Mundaka Upanisad states that
In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the
bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in
the Absolute Truth.

Not just any guru will do. This verse informs us that the spiritual
master must be in disciplic succession from Lord Krsna, the supreme
spiritual master. Such a genuine spiritual master receives Krsna's
teachings through the disciplic chain and distributes them exactly as
he has heard them from his spiritual master, without watering them
down or altering them to suit his whims. A bona fide guru is not an
impersonalist or voidist. He will never claim to be God; rather, he
aspires to be a servant of God and His devotees. Such a guru is called
acarya, or one who teaches by example. His life is free from all
material desires and sinful behavior, his character is exemplary, and
he must be qualified to deliver his disciples from the path of
repeated birth and death. The Krsna conscious guru is absorbed in
service to or meditation on the Supreme Lord at every moment.

Since the holy name of Krsna is completely spiritual, it must be
received from a pure representative or servant of Krsna, who acts as a
transparent via medium between God and the sincere spiritual seeker.
Mantras received from any other type of guru simply will not work.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptyb...@... wrote:

 Vaj came here at the invitation of Kirk Bernhardt after they met at a
 Dzogchen retreat. Because he spoke the language of Dzogchen and Tantra,
 Kirk thought Vaj was a Tantric-Dzogchen practitioner. Since Kirk was
 getting into conceptual tussles with some people here, he decided he
 could use someone with a similar background to back him up in
 discussions. So he invited Vaj to the group to shake everyone up –
 starting with Hey, look at my little friend, Vaj, curled up here in
 my travel bag. Isn't he really cool man? Don't worry! He really
 likes being with people. He'll just slither up around your neck and
 wrap around it with a flickering kiss. You'll be like Lord Shiva
 wearing his garland of serpents. So he talked and people were
 willing to listen for a while, entertained by the little whispering Vaj.
 
 What Kirk didn't realize was that Vaj was not the strident Buddhist
 he appeared to be. Vaj was actually a Gaudiya Vaishnava disciple of one
 of the Hare Krsna ritvik-gurus who was still active here in America. Vaj
 was performing a task requested by his initiating guru, Srila
 Vijayadarshana dasa Goswami. The request was for Vaj to follow in the
 lead of prior Vaishnava followers to disrupt and refute the demonic
 Mayavadins, of whom they considered Maharishi to be the
 biggest. (Mayavadin is a Vaishnava term denoting someone believing
 everything is illusion.)
 
 The basic technique of this practice is for the opponent (Vaj) to admix
 with the forum as a person with similar experiences. After people become
 comfortable with his flickering tongue, he then gradually introduces
 doubts and rebuttals from a tradition that is somewhat similar
 (Buddhist) but which criticizes the one in which he is temporarily
 positioned (Advaita Vedanta). The sole purpose is to unlatch people from
 their familiarity with their own experiences (i.e. introducing doubt
 about everything) and then offering them a variant framework for
 understanding. The key here is not to be too precise but rather give
 generic notions of superior states and stations of spiritual
 development that are unavailable, except from another tradition.
 
 The ironic premise of it all is hilarious. Serpentine Vaj is actually
 using an anti-cult deprogramming technique to free us from ourselves.
 First by trying to displace our belief in our direct experience with
 inveterate doubt (doubt for its own sake) and then secondly by offering
 us a way out through another