Re: [Finale] Ties

[Barbara Touburg]

On 23-11-2016 15:44, Robert Patterson wrote:
> But if you do have a lot of them, my Mass Copy plugin will copy the pattern.

Thanks to all! Flipping the ties and then copying them with Roberts 
plugin worked perfectly!
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Re: [Finale] Ties

[Robert Patterson]

But if you do have a lot of them, my Mass Copy plugin will copy the pattern.

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 8:39 AM, Christopher Smith <
christopher.sm...@videotron.ca> wrote:

> Aha! I just tried it. There ARE four ties, but the two tying the Bs
> together are superimposed. With the Special Tool (Ties) I click on one, hit
> command F (on my Mac) to flip it, and now I see all four ties.
>
> There is work to do to get the heads not to collide with each other. I
> hope you don’t have a lot of them.
>
> Christopher
>
>
> > On Nov 23, 2016, at 9:30 AM, Barbara Touburg  wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have a four note chord (a, bb, bn, c). Naturally Finale draws only 3
> > ties. Is there a way to force the fourth tie to show?
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Re: [Finale] Ties

[Christopher Smith]

Aha! I just tried it. There ARE four ties, but the two tying the Bs together 
are superimposed. With the Special Tool (Ties) I click on one, hit command F 
(on my Mac) to flip it, and now I see all four ties.

There is work to do to get the heads not to collide with each other. I hope you 
don’t have a lot of them.

Christopher


> On Nov 23, 2016, at 9:30 AM, Barbara Touburg  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have a four note chord (a, bb, bn, c). Naturally Finale draws only 3 
> ties. Is there a way to force the fourth tie to show?
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Re: [Finale] Ties

[Jan Angermüller]

In Speedy Entry go to one of the bs and press Ctrl-f (Windows) to flip 
one of the ties.
Otherwise both b ties are on the identical position and it looks like 
three ties.

Jan

Am 23.11.2016 um 15:30 schrieb Barbara Touburg:
> Hello,
>
> I have a four note chord (a, bb, bn, c). Naturally Finale draws only 3
> ties. Is there a way to force the fourth tie to show?
> ___
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> Finale@shsu.edu
> https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>
> To unsubscribe from finale send a message to:
> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
>

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[Finale] Ties

[Barbara Touburg]

Hello,

I have a four note chord (a, bb, bn, c). Naturally Finale draws only 3 
ties. Is there a way to force the fourth tie to show?
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[Finale] Ties

[Pierre Bailleul]

When same notes with consecutive stems in opposite directions, do you know a 
way to curve automaticaly ties away from the middle stave line?
Finale 2010.
Thanks
Pierre
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[Finale] ties on ringing percussion notes

[arabushka]

When I was running Finale 2003 I put trailing ties on ringing percussion notes 
(e.g., gong or cymbal strokes that were to ring for their full values)  by 
using the note shape tool and selecting the proper value from the appropriate 
font. I need to do this with some percussion notes now in Finale 2014 (running 
on Windows 8), and I cannot find these symbols in either standard or percussion 
notation. Where do I find them in 2014?

Aaron J. Rabushka

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Re: [Finale] ties on ringing percussion notes

[Ryan Beard]

I add these symbols as articulations. 
They might be predefined. If not, you can create them using Engraver Font Set 
lowercase u and uppercase U. (I think... I'm not near my finale machine, so I'm 
going off my memory...)

Sent from my iPad

 On Apr 27, 2014, at 3:14 PM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote:
 
 When I was running Finale 2003 I put trailing ties on ringing percussion 
 notes (e.g., gong or cymbal strokes that were to ring for their full values)  
 by using the note shape tool and selecting the proper value from the 
 appropriate font. I need to do this with some percussion notes now in Finale 
 2014 (running on Windows 8), and I cannot find these symbols in either 
 standard or percussion notation. Where do I find them in 2014?
 
 Aaron J. Rabushka
 
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Re: [Finale] ties on ringing percussion notes

[SN jef chippewa]

the characters you are referring to (by the sounds of it) are found 
in engraver extras, so you would need to have the instrument defined 
(in ScoreManager) to use that font to be able to access the noteheads 
with l.v. (laisser vibrer [let ring]) symbols built into the notehead 
character.

http://www.finalemusic.com/UserManuals/Finale2012Mac/Finale_Left.htm#CSHID=9515|StartTopic=Content%2FFinale%2FEngraver_Font.htm

but i also add these as articulations as opposed to changing the 
notehead character, and i do this *far* less frequently than most 
composers believe they are really needed.  your question is not about 
this, but... as the *normal* manner of playing a gong (for example) 
is l.v., you really do not need to indicate the symbol, except where 
playing method alternates between dampened / l.v. in quick succession.

even in the music i notate i rarely find justification to place l.v. 
symbols as often as the composers believe it is needed.  in more 
traditional uses of the instruments a l.v. is practically never 
needed.  more important is to indicate where the cymbal should be 
stopped (which, conversely, is only RARELY indicated by composers).


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Re: [Finale] Ties across bar lines (playback bug?)

[William Sinclair]

I use a T or shift-T in the simple entry mode, so I assume it's a tie, not a 
slur.
Is there a way to distinguish between the two? I never use a slur mark.

Besides, a slur is a tie mark between two UNEQUAL pitches, It makes no sense to 
put a slur between EQUAL pitches. If you know of any exceptions, I would sure 
like to see them.
I've never seen one in my 60 years of experience.

Actually, for some instruments, a slur is impossible - - - does Finale still 
try to play them?


-Original Message-
From: finale-request finale-requ...@shsu.edu
To: finale finale@shsu.edu
Sent: Tue, Jan 1, 2013 10:00 am
Subject: Finale Digest, Vol 114, Issue 1


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Today's Topics:

   1. Playback bug: Finale Digest, Vol 113, Issue 27 (William Sinclair)
   2. Re: Playback bug: Finale Digest, Vol 113, Issue 27
  (Christopher Smith)

 

Attached Message



From:

William Sinclair billsi...@aol.com



To:

finale@shsu.edu



Subject:

[Finale] Playback bug: Finale Digest, Vol 113, Issue 27



Date:

Mon, 31 Dec 2012 14:01:34 -0500





I have also noticed that when you tie a note across a measure line, it plays 
the 
note TWICE.
I pointed this out before several times. Why don't they fix this?


 
 


 

Attached Message



From:

Christopher Smith christopher.sm...@videotron.ca



To:

finale@shsu.edu



Subject:

Re: [Finale] Playback bug: Finale Digest, Vol 113, Issue 27



Date:

Mon, 31 Dec 2012 16:04:45 -0500




Are you sure you're using a tie, and not a slur? Slurs will be restruck; ties 
won't.

The only time I get a tie restriking is when I tie to a note in another layer.

Christopher


On Mon Dec 31, at MondayDec 31 2:01 PM, William Sinclair wrote:

 
 I have also noticed that when you tie a note across a measure line, it plays 
the note TWICE.
 I pointed this out before several times. Why don't they fix this?
 ___
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Re: [Finale] Ties across bar lines (playback bug?)

[Robert Patterson]

Two points:

1. In Finale, slurs and ties are completely different. This is not a
comment about musical interpretation but rather a statement about how
Finale works. You can put a tie between unequal notes and you can put a
slur between equal notes. To use Finale effectively, you must understand
the difference.

2. There are many musical cases where one sees slurs over the same notes.
Examples: repeated chords/notes in keyboard music, music in two parts where
one voice stays on the same pitch while another moves. Notes with
articulations. (E.g., portato bowing in string parts.) Obviously one must
write it with care to avoid ambiguity with ties.

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 1:35 PM, William Sinclair billsi...@aol.com wrote:


 I use a T or shift-T in the simple entry mode, so I assume it's a tie,
 not a slur.
 Is there a way to distinguish between the two? I never use a slur mark.

 Besides, a slur is a tie mark between two UNEQUAL pitches, It makes no
 sense to
 put a slur between EQUAL pitches. If you know of any exceptions, I would
 sure like to see them.
 I've never seen one in my 60 years of experience.

 Actually, for some instruments, a slur is impossible - - - does Finale
 still try to play them?


 -Original Message-
 From: finale-request finale-requ...@shsu.edu
 To: finale finale@shsu.edu
 Sent: Tue, Jan 1, 2013 10:00 am
 Subject: Finale Digest, Vol 114, Issue 1


 Send Finale mailing list submissions to
 finale@shsu.edu

 To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
 http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
 or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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 finale-ow...@shsu.edu

 When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
 than Re: Contents of Finale digest...


 Today's Topics:

1. Playback bug: Finale Digest, Vol 113, Issue 27 (William Sinclair)
2. Re: Playback bug: Finale Digest, Vol 113, Issue 27
   (Christopher Smith)



 Attached Message



 From:

 William Sinclair billsi...@aol.com



 To:

 finale@shsu.edu



 Subject:

 [Finale] Playback bug: Finale Digest, Vol 113, Issue 27



 Date:

 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 14:01:34 -0500





 I have also noticed that when you tie a note across a measure line, it
 plays the
 note TWICE.
 I pointed this out before several times. Why don't they fix this?








 Attached Message



 From:

 Christopher Smith christopher.sm...@videotron.ca



 To:

 finale@shsu.edu



 Subject:

 Re: [Finale] Playback bug: Finale Digest, Vol 113, Issue 27



 Date:

 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 16:04:45 -0500




 Are you sure you're using a tie, and not a slur? Slurs will be restruck;
 ties
 won't.

 The only time I get a tie restriking is when I tie to a note in another
 layer.

 Christopher


 On Mon Dec 31, at MondayDec 31 2:01 PM, William Sinclair wrote:

 
  I have also noticed that when you tie a note across a measure line, it
 plays
 the note TWICE.
  I pointed this out before several times. Why don't they fix this?
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Re: [Finale] Ties across bar lines (playback bug?)

[Christopher Smith]

If you've been entering them with the T, then there is no doubt that  
they are ties. Slurs would have been entered with the Smart Shape  
tool. Finale doesn't care about rules so much; it would enter either  
one on equal or unequal pitches. Whether they look any different  
depends on your settings. My settings would make the slur higher and  
slightly wider, so that it would contain a tie without colliding. It  
would be easy to confuse them in a document, though, no doubt.

I'm sorry I don't have any insight into your problem. The only other  
thing I can think of is that you hit Play when they AREN'T tied, then  
Pause (instead of Stop), then tie them, then Play again. Finale only  
rereads the score after a Stop, so it wouldn't see any edits for  
playback purposes after only a Pause.

Restriking a tied note is not normal, and it never happens under  
normal circumstances with me. Perhaps you can submit the file to Tech  
Support?

Christopher


On 1-Jan-13, at 1-Jan-13  2:56 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:

 Two points:

 1. In Finale, slurs and ties are completely different. This is not a
 comment about musical interpretation but rather a statement about how
 Finale works. You can put a tie between unequal notes and you can  
 put a
 slur between equal notes. To use Finale effectively, you must  
 understand
 the difference.

 2. There are many musical cases where one sees slurs over the same  
 notes.
 Examples: repeated chords/notes in keyboard music, music in two  
 parts where
 one voice stays on the same pitch while another moves. Notes with
 articulations. (E.g., portato bowing in string parts.) Obviously  
 one must
 write it with care to avoid ambiguity with ties.

 On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 1:35 PM, William Sinclair  
 billsi...@aol.com wrote:


 I use a T or shift-T in the simple entry mode, so I assume it's  
 a tie,
 not a slur.
 Is there a way to distinguish between the two? I never use a slur  
 mark.

 Besides, a slur is a tie mark between two UNEQUAL pitches, It  
 makes no
 sense to
 put a slur between EQUAL pitches. If you know of any exceptions, I  
 would
 sure like to see them.
 I've never seen one in my 60 years of experience.

 Actually, for some instruments, a slur is impossible - - - does  
 Finale
 still try to play them?


 -Original Message-
 From: finale-request finale-requ...@shsu.edu
 To: finale finale@shsu.edu
 Sent: Tue, Jan 1, 2013 10:00 am
 Subject: Finale Digest, Vol 114, Issue 1


 Send Finale mailing list submissions to
 finale@shsu.edu

 To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
 http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
 or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
 finale-requ...@shsu.edu

 You can reach the person managing the list at
 finale-ow...@shsu.edu

 When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
 than Re: Contents of Finale digest...


 Today's Topics:

1. Playback bug: Finale Digest, Vol 113, Issue 27 (William  
 Sinclair)
2. Re: Playback bug: Finale Digest, Vol 113, Issue 27
   (Christopher Smith)



 Attached Message



 From:

 William Sinclair billsi...@aol.com



 To:

 finale@shsu.edu



 Subject:

 [Finale] Playback bug: Finale Digest, Vol 113, Issue 27



 Date:

 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 14:01:34 -0500





 I have also noticed that when you tie a note across a measure  
 line, it
 plays the
 note TWICE.
 I pointed this out before several times. Why don't they fix this?








 Attached Message



 From:

 Christopher Smith christopher.sm...@videotron.ca



 To:

 finale@shsu.edu



 Subject:

 Re: [Finale] Playback bug: Finale Digest, Vol 113, Issue 27



 Date:

 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 16:04:45 -0500




 Are you sure you're using a tie, and not a slur? Slurs will be  
 restruck;
 ties
 won't.

 The only time I get a tie restriking is when I tie to a note in  
 another
 layer.

 Christopher


 On Mon Dec 31, at MondayDec 31 2:01 PM, William Sinclair wrote:


 I have also noticed that when you tie a note across a measure  
 line, it
 plays
 the note TWICE.
 I pointed this out before several times. Why don't they fix this?
 ___
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 http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale





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[Finale] Ties of Accidentals

[Clif Ashcraft]

An especially annoying behavior that I have encountered when using the 
SmartScore lite scanning routines in Finale is that when a score you are 
attempting to scan in has an accidental at the end of a measure, tied to the 
same note in the next measure, the software never gets it right.  For example, 
let's say an Ab not in the key signature is tied over into the next measure.  
When you look at the scanned in score, it looks correct, but plays wrong, ie, 
the Ab changes to an A natural when it should just hold the Ab over into the 
next measure.  My only workaround is to systematically delete each tie, select 
the appropriate b or # tool and click on the note in the next measure, then 
restore the tie.  This would seem to be an easy bug to fix, but it has been 
present in all the editions of Finale i have bought from 2008 to the present.  
I have considered upgrading to the not-lite version, but the cost is high, and 
the benefits dubious.  It looks like the upgrade is mainly to recognize lyrics 
and a lot more markings that I don't want to include anyway, and I have no 
assurance the bug in the lite version would be fixed.  I have asked if anyone 
in the group has ever gone for the scanning upgrade, but no one has ever 
responded, so I have no way to know if it is worth my while.  For example, if 
the bug is in fact fixed, could I turn OFF recognition of lyrics and all the 
other markings I don't want?

 Clif Ashcraft
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Re: [Finale] Ties into second endings

[Christopher Smith]

Craig,

In the Special Tools, choose the Tie Tool (it's the second one from the bottom 
on the left on my default palette.) Make sure you are in the same layer as the 
note. Click the note in the second ending. Three handles should appear. Click 
any one of the handles and hit command-F (on a Mac. Maybe control-F on a PC). 
It will flip. You can also drag handles around, so as a last resort, you can 
take a FORWARD tie and drag it backwards.

If this doesn't work, perhaps there is corruption in your file. Sometimes 
strange things stop working for only one measure. Clearing and re-entering all 
the contents sometimes works, then I try deleting the measure stack in question 
and inserting a new one, but sometimes I have to copy the entire file contents 
to a new document to clean it out.

Christopher

On Wed Aug 1, at WednesdayAug 1 11:32 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:

 No, I could not find any way to flip the tie.  I ended up just removing 
 it because it was worst than having no end-tie at all.
 
 The last note before the endings was second space with the stem up as 
 normal.  I didn't override anything.  The tie to the right of the last 
 measure before the endings was below the notehead, as one would expect.
 
 The tie goes into the same note in the first ending, and the tie is 
 continuous.  It all looks exactly as one wound expect.  The first note 
 in the second ending is identical to the first note in the first ending 
 (second space with stem up), but that ending tie went above the 
 notehead.  Gr.
 
 
 On 8/1/2012 3:41 PM, J D Thomas wrote:
 If the tie is in the wrong direction, can you use the flip option in Special 
 Tools to get it right?
 
 
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Re: [Finale] Ties into second endings

[J D Thomas]

Craig,

FWIW, I WAS able to create a 2nd ending tie in Finale 2012 Mac using the 
option-click method from Speed Entry.  I then could use the Special Tools Ties 
tool to flip the tie in either direction.

If you're not able to do this, I suspect file corruption.  Because it DOES work.

J D Thomas
ThomaStudios


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Re: [Finale] Ties into second endings

[Craig Parmerlee]

In the tie tool, the flip command was grayed out.  I was able to drag 
the middle handle to approximate the look of a flip.  But I could not 
get it to look like half a tie (i.e. the left handle being lower than 
the right handle.  The left and right handles seemed to do exactly the 
same thing with no ability to rotate the tie symbol or get something 
less than half an ellipse.

This will do for my purposes, but I would be embarrassed if that were a 
score I was getting paid to produce.  seems like such a basic thing that 
should: a) work correctly, and b) work automatically.

Anyway, thanks for your help.  I had never seen the tie tool before.
Craig

On 8/2/2012 7:20 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:
 Craig,

 In the Special Tools, choose the Tie Tool (it's the second one from the 
 bottom on the left on my default palette.) Make sure you are in the same 
 layer as the note. Click the note in the second ending. Three handles should 
 appear. Click any one of the handles and hit command-F (on a Mac. Maybe 
 control-F on a PC). It will flip. You can also drag handles around, so as a 
 last resort, you can take a FORWARD tie and drag it backwards.

 If this doesn't work, perhaps there is corruption in your file. Sometimes 
 strange things stop working for only one measure. Clearing and re-entering 
 all the contents sometimes works, then I try deleting the measure stack in 
 question and inserting a new one, but sometimes I have to copy the entire 
 file contents to a new document to clean it out.

 Christopher

 On Wed Aug 1, at WednesdayAug 1 11:32 PM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:

 No, I could not find any way to flip the tie.  I ended up just removing
 it because it was worst than having no end-tie at all.

 The last note before the endings was second space with the stem up as
 normal.  I didn't override anything.  The tie to the right of the last
 measure before the endings was below the notehead, as one would expect.

 The tie goes into the same note in the first ending, and the tie is
 continuous.  It all looks exactly as one wound expect.  The first note
 in the second ending is identical to the first note in the first ending
 (second space with stem up), but that ending tie went above the
 notehead.  Gr.


 On 8/1/2012 3:41 PM, J D Thomas wrote:
 If the tie is in the wrong direction, can you use the flip option in 
 Special Tools to get it right?

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Re: [Finale] Ties into second endings

[Mark Ralston]

If you copy the contents of the 1st ending (with a tie ending on the  
first note) into the 2nd ending, the correct tie end will appear on  
the first note of the 2nd ending. The ending/repeats must be created  
before you copy the music.
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Re: [Finale] Ties into second endings

[Craig Parmerlee]

Maybe this is a Mac versus Windows thing, but that doesn't work for me.  
As I read the doc, it seems to me that this command is supposed to do a 
FULL tie back to the previous note.  And that is exactly what it does on 
my system -- ties back to the last note in the first ending, which is 
wrong of course.  Curiously, when I first enter the command, it displays 
a half tie, but when I move to another measure, it becomes a full tie 
page into the first ending.

I tried the tie end option.  That does work better for me, but it 
still has a problem.  It seems to be arbitrary about whether to put the 
tie above or below the notehead, and it does not respond to the command 
to flip the tie -- so I an stuck with one note that has a really 
stupid-looking tie going the wrong direction.

This is an example of one of those basic functionality things that the 
Finale people have neglected for years while adding playback features of 
dubious value.



On 7/31/2012 12:34 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:
 It usually works for me to enter Opt./= on the first note of the second 
 ending.  That is supposed to put a backwards half tie on the note and usually 
 does.

 There have been times (perhaps with older updated files) where that doesn't 
 work, and I have to use a hand slur adjusted to resemble the ties.

 Chuck


 On Jul 31, 2012, at 8:34 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:

 This is something that has always bugged me.  There are many cases where
 the last note before an ending ties, and the tie goes into the first
 note of BOTH the first and second ending.  In fact, that is the normal
 case of a tie.  In my view, it is invalid to right a tie going into the
 first ending if the tie doesn't also go into the second ending.

 The normal way of notating this is to show the right half of the tie
 going into the first note of the second ending.  But Finale doesn't do
 this.  It seems that it should be automatic.  It would seem to be very
 straightforward to say If an ending begins with a note and the measure
 before the ending ended with a tie, then draw the right end of the tie
 going into the ending.

 I cannot find any option that does this.  Am I missing something?
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Re: [Finale] Ties into second endings

[J D Thomas]

Actually, I had not known about the option= keystroke until Chuck mentioned it. 
 Haven't had a chance to test it yet.

If the tie is in the wrong direction, can you use the flip option in Special 
Tools to get it right?

J D Thomas
ThomaStudios

On Aug 1, 2012, at 11:43 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:

 Maybe this is a Mac versus Windows thing, but that doesn't work for me.  
 As I read the doc, it seems to me that this command is supposed to do a 
 FULL tie back to the previous note.  And that is exactly what it does on 
 my system -- ties back to the last note in the first ending, which is 
 wrong of course.  Curiously, when I first enter the command, it displays 
 a half tie, but when I move to another measure, it becomes a full tie 
 page into the first ending.
 
 I tried the tie end option.  That does work better for me, but it 
 still has a problem.  It seems to be arbitrary about whether to put the 
 tie above or below the notehead, and it does not respond to the command 
 to flip the tie -- so I an stuck with one note that has a really 
 stupid-looking tie going the wrong direction.
 
 This is an example of one of those basic functionality things that the 
 Finale people have neglected for years while adding playback features of 
 dubious value.
 
 
 
 On 7/31/2012 12:34 PM, Chuck Israels wrote:
 It usually works for me to enter Opt./= on the first note of the second 
 ending.  That is supposed to put a backwards half tie on the note and 
 usually does.
 
 There have been times (perhaps with older updated files) where that doesn't 
 work, and I have to use a hand slur adjusted to resemble the ties.
 
 Chuck
 
 
 On Jul 31, 2012, at 8:34 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
 
 This is something that has always bugged me.  There are many cases where
 the last note before an ending ties, and the tie goes into the first
 note of BOTH the first and second ending.  In fact, that is the normal
 case of a tie.  In my view, it is invalid to right a tie going into the
 first ending if the tie doesn't also go into the second ending.
 
 The normal way of notating this is to show the right half of the tie
 going into the first note of the second ending.  But Finale doesn't do
 this.  It seems that it should be automatic.  It would seem to be very
 straightforward to say If an ending begins with a note and the measure
 before the ending ended with a tie, then draw the right end of the tie
 going into the ending.
 
 I cannot find any option that does this.  Am I missing something?
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 Portland, OR 97202-7097
 
 land line: (503) 954-2107
 cell phone: (360) 201-3434
 
 www.chuckisraels.com
 www.chuckisraelsjazz.com
 
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Re: [Finale] Ties into second endings

[Craig Parmerlee]

No, I could not find any way to flip the tie.  I ended up just removing 
it because it was worst than having no end-tie at all.

The last note before the endings was second space with the stem up as 
normal.  I didn't override anything.  The tie to the right of the last 
measure before the endings was below the notehead, as one would expect.

The tie goes into the same note in the first ending, and the tie is 
continuous.  It all looks exactly as one wound expect.  The first note 
in the second ending is identical to the first note in the first ending 
(second space with stem up), but that ending tie went above the 
notehead.  Gr.


On 8/1/2012 3:41 PM, J D Thomas wrote:
 If the tie is in the wrong direction, can you use the flip option in Special 
 Tools to get it right?


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[Finale] Ties into second endings

[Craig Parmerlee]

This is something that has always bugged me.  There are many cases where 
the last note before an ending ties, and the tie goes into the first 
note of BOTH the first and second ending.  In fact, that is the normal 
case of a tie.  In my view, it is invalid to right a tie going into the 
first ending if the tie doesn't also go into the second ending.

The normal way of notating this is to show the right half of the tie 
going into the first note of the second ending.  But Finale doesn't do 
this.  It seems that it should be automatic.  It would seem to be very 
straightforward to say If an ending begins with a note and the measure 
before the ending ended with a tie, then draw the right end of the tie 
going into the ending.

I cannot find any option that does this.  Am I missing something?
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Re: [Finale] Ties into second endings

[Chuck Israels]

It usually works for me to enter Opt./= on the first note of the second ending. 
 That is supposed to put a backwards half tie on the note and usually does.

There have been times (perhaps with older updated files) where that doesn't 
work, and I have to use a hand slur adjusted to resemble the ties.

Chuck


On Jul 31, 2012, at 8:34 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:

 This is something that has always bugged me.  There are many cases where 
 the last note before an ending ties, and the tie goes into the first 
 note of BOTH the first and second ending.  In fact, that is the normal 
 case of a tie.  In my view, it is invalid to right a tie going into the 
 first ending if the tie doesn't also go into the second ending.
 
 The normal way of notating this is to show the right half of the tie 
 going into the first note of the second ending.  But Finale doesn't do 
 this.  It seems that it should be automatic.  It would seem to be very 
 straightforward to say If an ending begins with a note and the measure 
 before the ending ended with a tie, then draw the right end of the tie 
 going into the ending.
 
 I cannot find any option that does this.  Am I missing something?
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8831 SE 12th Ave.
Portland, OR 97202-7097

land line: (503) 954-2107
cell phone: (360) 201-3434

www.chuckisraels.com
www.chuckisraelsjazz.com

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Re: [Finale] Ties into second endings

[John Blane]

Another way that often (but not always) works is to option-click in the 1st 
measure of the 2nd ending (in the Speedy Tool) and check the Tie End box in 
the geeky window that opens up.

John Blane
Blane Music Preparation 
1649 Huntington Ln.
Highland Park, IL 60035
847 579-9900
847 579-9903 fax
www.BlaneMusic.com
j...@blanemusic.com


On Jul 31, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Chuck Israels wrote:

 It usually works for me to enter Opt./= on the first note of the second 
 ending.  That is supposed to put a backwards half tie on the note and usually 
 does.
 
 There have been times (perhaps with older updated files) where that doesn't 
 work, and I have to use a hand slur adjusted to resemble the ties.
 
 Chuck
 
 
 On Jul 31, 2012, at 8:34 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:
 
 This is something that has always bugged me.  There are many cases where 
 the last note before an ending ties, and the tie goes into the first 
 note of BOTH the first and second ending.  In fact, that is the normal 
 case of a tie.  In my view, it is invalid to right a tie going into the 
 first ending if the tie doesn't also go into the second ending.
 
 The normal way of notating this is to show the right half of the tie 
 going into the first note of the second ending.  But Finale doesn't do 
 this.  It seems that it should be automatic.  It would seem to be very 
 straightforward to say If an ending begins with a note and the measure 
 before the ending ended with a tie, then draw the right end of the tie 
 going into the ending.
 
 I cannot find any option that does this.  Am I missing something?
 ___
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 Chuck Israels
 8831 SE 12th Ave.
 Portland, OR 97202-7097
 
 land line: (503) 954-2107
 cell phone: (360) 201-3434
 
 www.chuckisraels.com
 www.chuckisraelsjazz.com
 
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Re: [Finale] Ties into second endings

[J D Thomas]

Using the Speedy Entry tool, option-click on the measure in the 2nd ending 
where you want the tie.  This brings up a rather extensive dialog box with 
many, many checkboxes.  At the bottom there is a checkbox option called Tie 
End.  Check it.  When you go back to your score, you'll see the tie.

I agree Finale should do this automatically.  But this option has been 
available on every version of Finale since v2.0 back in the dark ages (1990s).

HTH

J D Thomas
ThomaStudios

On Jul 31, 2012, at 8:34 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:

 This is something that has always bugged me.  There are many cases where 
 the last note before an ending ties, and the tie goes into the first 
 note of BOTH the first and second ending.  In fact, that is the normal 
 case of a tie.  In my view, it is invalid to right a tie going into the 
 first ending if the tie doesn't also go into the second ending.
 
 The normal way of notating this is to show the right half of the tie 
 going into the first note of the second ending.  But Finale doesn't do 
 this.  It seems that it should be automatic.  It would seem to be very 
 straightforward to say If an ending begins with a note and the measure 
 before the ending ended with a tie, then draw the right end of the tie 
 going into the ending.
 
 I cannot find any option that does this.  Am I missing something?
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Re: [Finale] Ties into second endings

[Michael Mathew]

I just tried both ways and they both work; however, I think Chuck's method is 
way cooler and I never heard that one before!

Thank you, Chuck!

Michael
 
mmathew_musicp...@yahoo.com
http://www.musicengravers.com/cgi-bin/engravers.pl
http://oregonmts.com/mathew/



 From: Chuck Israels cisra...@comcast.net
To: finale@shsu.edu 
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Ties into second endings
 
It usually works for me to enter Opt./= on the first note of the second 
ending.  That is supposed to put a backwards half tie on the note and usually 
does.

There have been times (perhaps with older updated files) where that doesn't 
work, and I have to use a hand slur adjusted to resemble the ties.

Chuck


On Jul 31, 2012, at 8:34 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:

 This is something that has always bugged me.  There are many cases where 
 the last note before an ending ties, and the tie goes into the first 
 note of BOTH the first and second ending.  In fact, that is the normal 
 case of a tie.  In my view, it is invalid to right a tie going into the 
 first ending if the tie doesn't also go into the second ending.
 
 The normal way of notating this is to show the right half of the tie 
 going into the first note of the second ending.  But Finale doesn't do 
 this.  It seems that it should be automatic.  It would seem to be very 
 straightforward to say If an ending begins with a note and the measure 
 before the ending ended with a tie, then draw the right end of the tie 
 going into the ending.
 
 I cannot find any option that does this.  Am I missing something?
 ___
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 http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

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8831 SE 12th Ave.
Portland, OR 97202-7097

land line: (503) 954-2107
cell phone: (360) 201-3434

www.chuckisraels.com
www.chuckisraelsjazz.com

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[Finale] Ties unequal pitches together?

[billsincl]

 Well first of all, if the two pitches are not the same, it's a SLUR, not a tie.

But I've noticed that when you change the pitch of a note 
that IS tied, it breaks the tie - and then does not put the correct accidental 
on the
other note.

When it plays the music back it gives you two pitches, but does NOT show the 
correct pitches
on the staff. In other words, the played pitches are not consistent with what 
is on the staff.

When you change the pitch of a tied note, it should change the pitches of ALL
notes tied to it, automatically.

I'm kind of surprised that their programmers won't FIX something that's so 
obvious.

But maybe it's because they never took any music courses?

 


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Re: [Finale] Ties unequal pitches together?

[SN jef chippewa]

Well first of all, if the two pitches are not the same, it's a SLUR, 
not a tie.


it would be a tie if the pitch change was to account for a key change 
and the sounding note was the same but notated differently for the 
context.


When you change the pitch of a tied note, it should change the 
pitches of ALL notes tied to it, automatically.


I'm kind of surprised that their programmers won't FIX something 
that's so obvious.

But maybe it's because they never took any music courses?


maybe it's because it ain't broken.

you can use the selection tool to change the pitch of a range of 
notes (tied or not) in several ways.  plugin change pitch to x, use 
numpad 6/7/8/9 to transpose diatonically second / octave or use the 
transposition context menu item for many more options.


your proposal is an interesting one, i just don't think the tool is 
broken like you suggest.  you would rather see it function 
differently.  fair enough... but it ain't broked, dude.


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[Finale] Ties after a Coda Sign

[Peter Sprague]

Hi, can anyone help me figure this out?

The measure preceding the coda sign ends with a quarter note tie-ing to the
coda measure. The first beat in the coda measure should have a tie leading
into it but because this measure is many measures after the actual measure
that had the tie, no tie appears.

Hope this is clear. Thanks for any help you can lend

Peter Sprague


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Re: [Finale] Ties after a Coda Sign

[Christopher Smith]

Yeah, this is a pain. There should be an easier way to do it, for  
example you can set a backwards tie that stops at the barline in  
Speedy with opt = but ONLY if you are in the second ending and there  
is a note in the first ending! Strange restriction, wouldn't you say?  
Complain about this to tech support, so that it gets on the list of  
things to fix.


But to do what YOU have to do, enter a tie forwards in the usual way,  
then go into Special Tools and choose the Tie Tool. Three handles  
appear on the note, drag the right-most one to the left until the  
barline. That's it.


Christopher


On Dec 16, 2008, at 3:11 PM, Peter Sprague wrote:


Hi, can anyone help me figure this out?

The measure preceding the coda sign ends with a quarter note tie- 
ing to the
coda measure. The first beat in the coda measure should have a tie  
leading
into it but because this measure is many measures after the actual  
measure

that had the tie, no tie appears.

Hope this is clear. Thanks for any help you can lend

Peter Sprague


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[Finale] ties and stems in chords

[Pierre Bailleul]

Dear list,
I'm working on an organ score with a lot of tenuto notes.
Do you know a way in Finale to break ties for stems (like breaking for 
signatures or keys in document options / ties /)

Thanks for your responses.
Pierre. 


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[Finale] Ties and accidentals

[Pierre Bailleul]

Dear list,
In document-options-ties, I see no difference when end before single 
accidental is checked or not?
It will be great in the case of notes with accidentals tied from one line to 
the next...

Thanks for your responses.
Pierre 


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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[dhbailey]

Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 17:22 Uhr dc wrote:

The Peters Urtext edition of the (manualiter) Toccatas, 1956, seems to 
follow the rule. All my other volumes of organ works are Bärenreiter 
(with one Breitkopf).




Thanks, that's what I needed to know.
The client has actually given in. He actually checked his own Peters, 
and to his surprise found that I was correct...

Of course now his trust in me has quadrupled. Took me a whole day, though.


Yes, but sometimes that confidence boost is worth far more than a day's 
work -- word of mouth referrals from him will now paint you as a god 
among engravers and he will convince everybody he knows who might need 
an engraver that you are the only one with such deep knowledge of proper 
engraving techniques.  :-)


In any event, you won the battle and that counts for something to offset 
those battles with clients who simply won't be convinced, even in the 
face of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[dhbailey]

Ken Durling wrote:

I agree, it's never been an issue for me either - more problematic is a 
reiteration of the same note later in the  2nd measure, and whether the 
measure rule applies from the tied note.  But still the courtesy 
accidental is always the safe road.  (I do like curtsy accidental 
though :-) - perhaps something in a French Overture?)




I can't recall where I've read this, but I'm sure a search of Stone or 
Read or Ross will support it -- the later note in the second measure 
requires an accidental.  The rule about accidentals working throughout 
the measure only applies when there has been an actual accidental placed 
in the measure.  Since with tied notes, there isn't an accidental placed 
in front of the tied note in the second measure, there isn't an actual 
accidental to carry through the measure, thus the need for an accidental 
in front of that later note in that measure.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[dhbailey]

dc wrote:


Darcy James Argue écrit:


I had the opposite instinct -- that a parenthesized courtesy
accidental on a tied note at the beginning of a measure would not
carry through the measure



But what if you don't use parentheses? Then it would carry through. One 
more reason for not having them...




Without parentheses it wouldn't be a cautionary accidental -- it would 
be a real accidental and as such it would carry through the entire measure.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Darcy James Argue]

On 09 Sep 2005, at 5:09 AM, dhbailey wrote:

I can't recall where I've read this, but I'm sure a search of Stone  
or Read or Ross will support it -- the later note in the second  
measure requires an accidental.  The rule about accidentals working  
throughout the measure only applies when there has been an actual  
accidental placed in the measure.  Since with tied notes, there  
isn't an accidental placed in front of the tied note in the second  
measure


[sigh]

David, I don't mean to get snippy, but for crying out loud, this is  
*exactly what this entire thread has been about* -- situations where  
there IS an accidental placed in front of the tied note in the second  
measure (because the second measure begins a new system, or a new  
page, etc).


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[dhbailey]

Darcy James Argue wrote:

On 09 Sep 2005, at 5:09 AM, dhbailey wrote:

I can't recall where I've read this, but I'm sure a search of Stone  
or Read or Ross will support it -- the later note in the second  
measure requires an accidental.  The rule about accidentals working  
throughout the measure only applies when there has been an actual  
accidental placed in the measure.  Since with tied notes, there  isn't 
an accidental placed in front of the tied note in the second  measure



[sigh]

David, I don't mean to get snippy, but for crying out loud, this is  
*exactly what this entire thread has been about* -- situations where  
there IS an accidental placed in front of the tied note in the second  
measure (because the second measure begins a new system, or a new  page, 
etc).




And didn't my second sentence above: The rule about accidentals working
throughout the measure only applies when there has been an actual
accidental placed in the measure. answer the question?

I'm not sure what you're crying out loud for, but cry more quietly -- I 
can hear you all the way up here in New Hampshire!




--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Darcy James Argue]

On 09 Sep 2005, at 6:15 AM, dhbailey wrote:


Darcy James Argue wrote:


On 09 Sep 2005, at 5:09 AM, dhbailey wrote:

I can't recall where I've read this, but I'm sure a search of  
Stone  or Read or Ross will support it -- the later note in the  
second  measure requires an accidental.  The rule about  
accidentals working  throughout the measure only applies when  
there has been an actual  accidental placed in the measure.   
Since with tied notes, there  isn't an accidental placed in front  
of the tied note in the second  measure



[sigh]
David, I don't mean to get snippy, but for crying out loud, this  
is  *exactly what this entire thread has been about* -- situations  
where  there IS an accidental placed in front of the tied note in  
the second  measure (because the second measure begins a new  
system, or a new  page, etc).




And didn't my second sentence above: The rule about accidentals  
working

throughout the measure only applies when there has been an actual
accidental placed in the measure. answer the question?


Well, no, clearly not, since pretty much the entire thread has been a  
debate about whether an accidental placed before a note that  
*continues* a tie counts as an actual accidental placed in the  
measure or not.


[So far, the thread seems to be leaning towards or not, especially  
if the accidental in question is parenthesized.]


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[David W. Fenton]

On 9 Sep 2005 at 6:21, Darcy James Argue wrote:

 [So far, the thread seems to be leaning towards or not, especially 
 if the accidental in question is parenthesized.]

My feeling is that you don't really need a rule for this. All you 
need is to ask yourself:

Is the notation unambiguous so that every musician, whatever their 
assumptions about rules, will play exactly the same notes?

So, it seems to me that, whether you think the tiedl accidental 
carries through the whole measure or not, you *must* put a cautionary 
or real accidental on the additional notes in the measure to clarify 
what pitch is to be played.

That issue is entirely independent of the system break circumstances.

To me, a tied note's accidental continues through the remainder of 
the measure it initiates, even if it's not repeated at a system 
break, but I probably reach that conclusion because my work is mostly 
with music that is wholly tonal where it's quite common to be 
parsimonious with accidentals (indeed, leaving out many that would be 
considered obligatory in modern engraving, i.e., in 18th-century 
sources, one G# makes all the Gs sharp, in all octaves).

This reminds me of arguments about bibliographic citations -- it 
doesn't matter which style you use, as long as your provide all the 
information unambiguously, and do so consistently.

Indeed, I've always been hostile to the whole concept of using Ross, 
Read, et al., as authorities, since their rules are not binding on 
me, they are just recommendations for a consistent style of 
engraving. Yes, there's lots of common sense in there, but that 
doesn't mean that the rules they come up with must apply to all 
cases.

In fact, I think the Peters organ music I looked at that lacked the 
accidental at the beginning of a tie broken across a system was 
completely unambiguous, because it's *keyboard music* and there's 
plenty of information in the other voices to provide a clear harmonic 
context that makes the cautionary accidntal wholly superfluous.

It's very different in, say, a violin part, where the harmonic 
context can only be inferred. Then, the cautionary accidental after 
the system break beomces pretty important, as there's no other 
information for the player to use to disambiguoate the accidental.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Johannes Gebauer]

In case anyone is interested I have now been forced to prove my case to 
the client, so I looked at the following list of publications:


Mendelssohn, Hebriden-Ouvertüre, Bärenreiter, 2004.
Mozart, Marriage of Figaro, Peters 1941
Beethoven, Sinfonie Nr 6, Eulenburg 1986
Bach, Wohltemperiertes Klavier, Bd. I, Henle, 1950
Bach, Weihnachts-Oratorium, Bärenreiter 1960/1988
Bach, Matthäus-Passion, Bärenreiter, 1972
Haydn, Klaviertrios Band IV, Henle Verlag 1987

The bias on Bärenreiter had to do with the client.
All of these publications follow the rule without exceptions. This was 
100% of all publications I looked at.


So I guess that at least the major European publishers (I haven't looked 
at Breitkopf, didn't have any at hand) do indeed follow this convention.


I still couldn't convince the client (he doesn't understand that this is 
an exception only applicable at system breaks), so since he decides we 
will not follow the convention, even though I am unhappy about this. But 
who cares?


If anyone has the time I would really be interested if a (any) Peters 
publication of Bach Organ works follows this, sometimes or all the 
times, or not at all, since he seems to claim that they don't. I cannot 
check this since I don't own one. Please also let me know the year of 
the publication.


Johannes

On 07.09.2005 22:54 Uhr Johannes Gebauer wrote:
I can't find this in Ted Ross, and am looking for a rule: When a tie 
reaches across a System break, should an accidental be repeated on 
the second note? I know it can be, but can someone look this up in 
the other standard treatises for me, or point me to the right page in 
Ted Ross?





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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Ken Durling]

I have three nearly complete editions of the Bach 
organ works, (Barenreiter, EMB, Peters and a few 
Schirmers)  including most of the Peters - I'll 
check later as this has my curiosity now, but 
they are at church not here at home.


Ken


At 08:22 AM 9/8/2005, you wrote:

Johannes Gebauer écrit:
If anyone has the time I would really be 
interested if a (any) Peters publication of 
Bach Organ works follows this, sometimes or all 
the times, or not at all, since he seems to 
claim that they don't. I cannot check this 
since I don't own one. Please also let me know the year of the publication.


The Peters Urtext edition of the (manualiter) 
Toccatas, 1956, seems to follow the rule. All my 
other volumes of organ works are Bärenreiter (with one Breitkopf).


Dennis





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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[A-NO-NE Music]

I was fascinated with this thread, 'coz I never thought it is an issue. 
I always put curtsy repeated accidental with parenthesis (hit '*' then
'P') so we save rehearsal/studio time.

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 17:22 Uhr dc wrote:
The Peters Urtext edition of the (manualiter) Toccatas, 1956, seems 
to follow the rule. All my other volumes of organ works are 
Bärenreiter (with one Breitkopf).




Thanks, that's what I needed to know.
The client has actually given in. He actually checked his own Peters, 
and to his surprise found that I was correct...

Of course now his trust in me has quadrupled. Took me a whole day, though.

Johannes
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Johannes Gebauer]

If you mean you do this for system breaks, you can use Robert's TieMover 
plugin, it can do this automatically. I let it do this in the same run 
as I move ties on lines a quarter space away from the note (it's amazing 
that Finale can now do this for slurs, but requires a third party plugin 
to do it for ties...).


Johannes

A-NO-NE Music schrieb:
I was fascinated with this thread, 'coz I never thought it is an issue. 
I always put curtsy repeated accidental with parenthesis (hit '*' then

'P') so we save rehearsal/studio time.



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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Ken Durling]

I agree, it's never been an issue for me either - more problematic is 
a reiteration of the same note later in the  2nd measure, and whether 
the measure rule applies from the tied note.  But still the courtesy 
accidental is always the safe road.  (I do like curtsy accidental 
though :-) - perhaps something in a French Overture?)


Ken


At 08:50 AM 9/8/2005, you wrote:


I was fascinated with this thread, 'coz I never thought it is an issue.
I always put curtsy repeated accidental with parenthesis (hit '*' then
'P') so we save rehearsal/studio time.

--

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com


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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[A-NO-NE Music]

dc / 2005/09/08 / 12:05 PM wrote:

I think I've always seen it without the brackets.


To me, without parenthesis, it can be confused with slurred instead of
tied, no?


-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com


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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Chuck Israels]

On Sep 8, 2005, at 8:57 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:The client has actually given in. He actually checked his own Peters, and to his surprise found that I was correct...Of course now his trust in me has quadrupled. Took me a whole day, though.Only a day?  I'd consider that a speed record! :-)Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com  ___
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 18:10 Uhr Ken Durling wrote:
I agree, it's never been an issue for me either - more problematic is 
a reiteration of the same note later in the  2nd measure, and whether 
the measure rule applies from the tied note.  But still the courtesy 
accidental is always the safe road.


Do you mean you put them in even in a middle of a system? That would 
really confuse me when sightreading.


And yes, that specific question is interesting. I would not add another 
courtesy acci, if the first note in the measure had one, but to be 
honest I haven't checked this out. Anyone know?


Johannes
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Darcy James Argue]

I had the opposite instinct -- that a parenthesized courtesy  
accidental on a tied note at the beginning of a measure would not  
carry through the measure, and if it's e.g., an Eb, the next Eb in  
the measure would require a (non-courtesy) accidental.


But it would be nice to know what others do in this situation.

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 08 Sep 2005, at 12:23 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 18:10 Uhr Ken Durling wrote:

I agree, it's never been an issue for me either - more problematic  
is a reiteration of the same note later in the  2nd measure, and  
whether the measure rule applies from the tied note.  But still  
the courtesy accidental is always the safe road.




Do you mean you put them in even in a middle of a system? That  
would really confuse me when sightreading.


And yes, that specific question is interesting. I would not add  
another courtesy acci, if the first note in the measure had one,  
but to be honest I haven't checked this out. Anyone know?


Johannes
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[A-NO-NE Music]

Darcy James Argue / 2005/09/08 / 12:41 PM wrote:

I had the opposite instinct -- that a parenthesized courtesy  
accidental on a tied note at the beginning of a measure would not  
carry through the measure, and if it's e.g., an Eb, the next Eb in  
the measure would require a (non-courtesy) accidental.


This is exactly how I have been doing, and I receive no complaint.  I
even get thank you remark from sight reader sometime :-)


-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com


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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Ken Durling]

Well, I'm not entirely sure being on system break or not affects this 
question.  If an accidental is tied across a barline it seems to me 
it raises the question of subsequent identical pitches in the 
following bar in either case, so that adding an accidental - probably 
NOT courtesy but normal - should be the norm, as others are saying.


I also think this is influenced by the presence or lack of key 
signature.  My own work is almost entirely without key signature, and 
I think that adds another level of necessity for clarity.  When sight 
reading music with a key signature I think my tendency would be to 
revert to the non-accidental note in the situation we're discussing.


Ken


At 09:23 AM 9/8/2005, you wrote:

On 18:10 Uhr Ken Durling wrote:
I agree, it's never been an issue for me either - more problematic 
is a reiteration of the same note later in the  2nd measure, and 
whether the measure rule applies from the tied note.  But still the 
courtesy accidental is always the safe road.


Do you mean you put them in even in a middle of a system? That would 
really confuse me when sightreading.


And yes, that specific question is interesting. I would not add 
another courtesy acci, if the first note in the measure had one, but 
to be honest I haven't checked this out. Anyone know?


Johannes
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Phil Daley]

At 9/8/2005 01:04 PM, Ken  Durling wrote:

Well, I'm not entirely sure being on system break or not affects this
question.  If an accidental is tied across a barline it seems to me
it raises the question of subsequent identical pitches in the
following bar in either case, so that adding an accidental - probably
NOT courtesy but normal - should be the norm, as others are saying.

As a sight reader, I would expect that, if there was an accidental in a 
previous measure that was tied over into the current measure, the next time 
that note appeared in the current measure, it would have a normal accidental.


Phil Daley   AutoDesk 
http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley



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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[David W. Fenton]

On 8 Sep 2005 at 16:30, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

 If anyone has the time I would really be interested if a (any) Peters
 publication of Bach Organ works follows this, sometimes or all the
 times, or not at all, since he seems to claim that they don't. I
 cannot check this since I don't own one. Please also let me know the
 year of the publication.

I just pulled out Peters Bach Orgelwerke VIII (concertos  the 8 
little preludes  fugues), and on the first page of Concerto II (the 
edition doesn't have BWV numbers), I see a passage with ties in all 
the lower voices of both manuals as well as the pedal. The note in 
the left hand is a G#, tied from a half note at the end of one 
measure to two whole measures, then tied over a system break to a 
dotted half. The # is *not* repeated 

So, that's an example where Peters does break the rule.

It doesn't look like a problem in the context, though, as it would be 
completely unmusical and nonharmonic to think that the tied G were 
natural and not sharp. The notes above make it impossible to forget 
that, and the long held chord makes it very unlikely that someone 
would accidentally interpret it as a slur.

The passsage recurs later with different distribution of the parts in 
the hands (not logically, though -- it is just badly notated in the 
first occurrence), but with the system break after the first half 
note. The # is not repeated.

I also found another case in the 6th of the preludes (an alla breve), 
in which breaking the rule *is* confusing. The context is that in the 
measure before the system break, two voices land on G#. One is tied 
and on the downbeat of the next measure, the top one moves to A 
natural. So, you see a step dissonance, and in context, it looks more 
logical for it to be a whole step, but it's really a half step.

Of course, again, when playing it, it's very unlikely one would make 
that misjudgment.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Chuck Israels]

On Sep 8, 2005, at 9:41 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote:

I had the opposite instinct -- that a parenthesized courtesy  
accidental on a tied note at the beginning of a measure would not  
carry through the measure, and if it's e.g., an Eb, the next Eb in  
the measure would require a (non-courtesy) accidental.


But it would be nice to know what others do in this situation.

-


I always put a new accidental after a tied one occurring at the  
beginning of a measure and don't see a way to avoid this practice and  
still be unambiguous.  I might also put a parenthesized courtesy  
cancellation, if the accidental doesn't carry over in the latter part  
of the measure, just to be clear.


I love the idea of curtsey accidentals though.

Chuck

Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[David W. Fenton]

On 8 Sep 2005 at 17:22, dc wrote:

 Johannes Gebauer écrit:
 If anyone has the time I would really be interested if a (any) Peters
  publication of Bach Organ works follows this, sometimes or all the
 times, or not at all, since he seems to claim that they don't. I
 cannot check this since I don't own one. Please also let me know the
 year of the publication.
 
 The Peters Urtext edition of the (manualiter) Toccatas, 1956, seems to
 follow the rule. All my other volumes of organ works are Bärenreiter
 (with one Breitkopf).

The Peters volume that I was looking at is a reprint of one of their 
old editions, with a preface dated 1852, so one might guess that the 
musical text reflects much older engraving rules.

-- 
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 19:04 Uhr Ken Durling wrote:
Well, I'm not entirely sure being on system break or not affects this 
question.  If an accidental is tied across a barline it seems to me 
it raises the question of subsequent identical pitches in the 
following bar in either case, so that adding an accidental - probably 
NOT courtesy but normal - should be the norm, as others are saying.


Well, by traditional European convention there should definitely not be 
an accidental on a tied over note unless the tie goes over a system 
break. All the editions I listed completely go by this convention.


I also think this is influenced by the presence or lack of key 
signature.  My own work is almost entirely without key signature, and 
I think that adds another level of necessity for clarity.  When sight 
reading music with a key signature I think my tendency would be to 
revert to the non-accidental note in the situation we're discussing.


Ah, for music without a key sig, and even more so for atonal music the 
case may indeed be different. I wouldn't know, I don't do that kind of 
music very often.


Johannes

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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Ken Durling]

Yes, I follow you and concur for the tied note.  I was just talking 
about subsequent iterations of the pitch.


Ken


At 12:05 PM 9/8/2005, you wrote:

On 19:04 Uhr Ken Durling wrote:
Well, I'm not entirely sure being on system break or not affects 
this question.  If an accidental is tied across a barline it seems 
to me it raises the question of subsequent identical pitches in the 
following bar in either case, so that adding an accidental - 
probably NOT courtesy but normal - should be the norm, as others are saying.


Well, by traditional European convention there should definitely not 
be an accidental on a tied over note unless the tie goes over a 
system break. All the editions I listed completely go by this convention.


Ken Durling
Composition and Music Services
Berkeley, CA
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

Figured I'd pull out the old Stravinsky Sacre score, the Kalmus reprint
that I bought in the 1960s. Not exactly a monument to engraving, but very
legible in general, considering how much is going on.

So no answer. It goes both ways. The English Horn line from p1-2
repeats the sharp as does the flute line from p2-3. But the clarinet line
doesn't repeat the flat from p103-104 or 121-122. The oboe repeats a flat
from 115-116 but not from 109-110. It's not consistent (though I was
surprised at how few ties Igor uses over the barlines).

Dennis





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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 20:57 Uhr David W. Fenton wrote:
The Peters volume that I was looking at is a reprint of one of their 
old editions, with a preface dated 1852, so one might guess that the 
musical text reflects much older engraving rules.




This reflects my observations as well. I have here a volume of various 
organ preludes published in 1927, and it is extremely inconsistent. 
That's the music I am currently working on, hence the problems trying to 
convince the client that the extra accidentals after system breaks are 
necessary.


I also have several older editions of various organ works, dating back 
to about the turn of the century, and they seem to not have these 
courtesy accis. So from what I am seeing I think I can make a case that 
practice changed in the first half of the 20th century, and that by 
about the 40s the extra accis were pretty much established convention.


That is not to say that the rule will be followed without exception, I 
am certain one will find exceptions even in major publications (although 
having looked through quite a number of them I didn't find any).


Johannes
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Ken Durling]

Interesting.  I have the IMC score, and although the pagination is 
different, I can see that they follow a similar practice - but here 
accidentals are only rarely repeated on ties over system breaks. I've 
only found one example so far.  Lots of non-repeated ones.


Ken


At 12:14 PM 9/8/2005, you wrote:

Figured I'd pull out the old Stravinsky Sacre score, the Kalmus reprint
that I bought in the 1960s. Not exactly a monument to engraving, but very
legible in general, considering how much is going on.

So no answer. It goes both ways. The English Horn line from p1-2
repeats the sharp as does the flute line from p2-3. But the clarinet line
doesn't repeat the flat from p103-104 or 121-122. The oboe repeats a flat
from 115-116 but not from 109-110. It's not consistent (though I was
surprised at how few ties Igor uses over the barlines).

Dennis





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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Andrew Stiller]

On Sep 7, 2005, at 4:54 PM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

I can't find this in Ted Ross, and am looking for a rule: When a tie 
reaches across a System break, should an accidental be repeated on the 
second note?


My policy is to do this only following a page turn.

Andrew Stiller
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Andrew Stiller]

I had the opposite instinct -- that a parenthesized courtesy 
accidental on a tied note at the beginning of a measure would not 
carry through the measure, and if it's e.g., an Eb, the next Eb in the 
measure would require a (non-courtesy) accidental.


But it would be nice to know what others do in this situation.

- Darcy


I agree. The parenthesis signals that the parenthesized instruction is 
merely a reminder and is not technically needed. If an accidental 
carries information about succeeding notes, it is not a courtesy 
accidental at all!


That said, however, I would be careful to place a(n unparenthesized) 
courtesy natural before any repetition of the pitch within that bar 
just to make sure the player understands.


Andrew Stiller
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Raymond Horton]

Darcy James Argue écrit:


I had the opposite instinct -- that a parenthesized courtesy
accidental on a tied note at the beginning of a measure would not
carry through the measure



But what if you don't use parentheses? Then it would carry through. 
One more reason for not having them...


Dennis

Some 19th Century composers, most prominently Berlioz and Verdi, 
followed this norm in their music.  They normally repeated the tied 
accidental on the downbeat, which then carried through the bar.  I have 
observed it in instrumental music of these composers many, many times.

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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[dhbailey]

Johannes Gebauer wrote:

I can't find this in Ted Ross, and am looking for a rule: When a tie 
reaches across a System break, should an accidental be repeated on the 
second note? I know it can be, but can someone look this up in the other 
standard treatises for me, or point me to the right page in Ted Ross?


Thanks,
Johannes



I can't find any specific reference to what you're asking in either Ross 
or Kurt Stone and Gardner Read's book isn't right at hand for me to 
check, but my 2-cents' worth on it is that you should repeat the 
accidental, since it's not always clear that the curved line at the end 
of the system or the beginning of the next system are ties or slurs.


Repeating the accidental removes any ambiguity from the situation.

--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Aaron Sherber]

At 05:13 PM 09/07/2005, dhbailey wrote:
I can't find any specific reference to what you're asking in either Ross
or Kurt Stone and Gardner Read's book isn't right at hand for me to
check, 

Since David has done most of this research, the least I can do is 
flip open Read. g


...The one exception to this general rule occurs when the note or 
notes affected by an accidentaland tied over the barline come at the 
end of a system or at the bottom of the page. It is helpful to the 
performer if the accidental is repeated before the tied note(s), on 
the following system or page. If the repetition gets in the way of 
the tie-sign, the curved slur may be placed somewhat higher or lower 
than usual to avoid running into the accidental.  p. 131


Aaron.

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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Owain Sutton]

dhbailey wrote:



I can't find any specific reference to what you're asking in either Ross 
or Kurt Stone and Gardner Read's book isn't right at hand for me to 
check, but my 2-cents' worth on it is that you should repeat the 
accidental, since it's not always clear that the curved line at the end 
of the system or the beginning of the next system are ties or slurs.


Repeating the accidental removes any ambiguity from the situation.



From a performing point of view, I wholly agree.  Unfortunately, I can 
also sympathise with the frustration for engravers, that this can look 
ugly, mess up spacing, make other ties on other staves look out of 
place, and so on.


I'd regard this as something to decide in context, on a piece-by-piece 
basis.  If it's a whole load of held major and minor chords, then 
there's little need to repeat accidentals.  If it's complex and 
unpredictable lines, then certainly repeat them.  Just my 2c.


Owain
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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

At 10:54 PM 9/7/05 +0200, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
I can't find this in Ted Ross, and am looking for a rule: When a tie 
reaches across a System break, should an accidental be repeated on the 
second note? I know it can be, but can someone look this up in the other 
standard treatises for me, or point me to the right page in Ted Ross?

I'm interested in this answer also. Often if I leave the accidental out
(which is what I've usually done), performers ask for it to be inserted in
the next printing of parts -- or I see it penciled in on parts.

Dennis



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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 07.09.2005 23:13 Uhr Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
I'm interested in this answer also. Often if I leave the accidental 
out (which is what I've usually done), performers ask for it to be 
inserted in the next printing of parts -- or I see it penciled in on 
parts. 


You can use Robert's TieMover to automatically insert or delete them.

Johannes
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Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs

[Jari Williamsson]

d. collins wrote:
I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending 
on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes.
FWIW, both Garner Read (page 267) and Kurt Ross (page 141) mentions a 
tie not covered completely by the slur as incorrect. But of course 
this doesn't deal with historical editions (just like ties over barlines 
are now considered to be the correct notation, compared to putting 
dots after the barline or notes directly on the barline).

Best regards,
Jari Williamsson
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Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs

[Johannes Gebauer]

I just looked up a couple of volumes from the Mozart complete edition at 
random, and they consistently start the slur on the second note of two 
tied over notes. I think the problem is that both Read and Ross follow a 
early 20th century tradition. From that point of view they are both 
correct. However, things have changed, especially for critical editions, 
and you will probably find that the Mozart complete edition approach is 
now used in pretty much all Bärenreiter, Henle, UE, and probably also 
recent Schott, Eulenburg, Peters and even Breitkopf editions.

To be honest, for me a slur covering the whole tie actually looks 
old-fashioned, but 90% of my playing is from either 18th century or 
modern critical editions.

However, depending on the context both ways are valid and correct.
Johannes
Jari Williamsson wrote:
d. collins wrote:
I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending 
on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes.

FWIW, both Garner Read (page 267) and Kurt Ross (page 141) mentions a 
tie not covered completely by the slur as incorrect. But of course 
this doesn't deal with historical editions (just like ties over barlines 
are now considered to be the correct notation, compared to putting 
dots after the barline or notes directly on the barline).

Best regards,
Jari Williamsson
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Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs

[Johannes Gebauer]

I don't think there is a distinction, though. I have never seen an 
edition where the two are mixed.

Johannes
d. collins wrote:
Jari Williamsson écrit:
FWIW, both Garner Read (page 267) and Kurt Ross (page 141) mentions a 
tie not covered completely by the slur as incorrect. But of course 
this doesn't deal with historical editions (just like ties over 
barlines are now considered to be the correct notation, compared to 
putting dots after the barline or notes directly on the barline).

I did check Read and Ross before posting my question, and the pages you 
refer in both books mention only the case of a slur finishing on a tied 
note, and not my case, where the tied note comes at the beginning.

Dennis
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Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs

[Johannes Gebauer]

I think this is a good decision, in line with most (European) 
publications of this sort and this day. I would almost certainly do the 
same.

Johannes
d. collins wrote:
Thanks to all for the valuable advice, and in particular to Johannes for 
explaining both options in this situation.

The source (17th century) of this vocal piece only uses one tie/slur in 
the text itself, to indicate that the syllable is held over all three 
notes (one whole note and two quarter notes, with the same pitch for the 
first two notes). I think the slur starting on the second note looks 
better, and since there is no ambiguity, this is what I'm tempted to do.

Thanks again,
Dennis
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Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs

[John Poole [Finale Discussion]]

Jari Williamsson wrote:
d. collins wrote:
I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending 
on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes.

FWIW, both Garner Read (page 267) and Kurt Ross (page 141) mentions a 
tie not covered completely by the slur as incorrect. But of course 
this doesn't deal with historical editions (just like ties over barlines 
are now considered to be the correct notation, compared to putting 
dots after the barline or notes directly on the barline).

Best regards,
Jari Williamsson
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Could you clarify which of Garner Read's books you are citing to?
I am aware of six books he has written and suspect you are referencing
the book entitled Source Book of Proposed Music Notation Reforms [I'm 
quoting since underline/italics is not available].
I do not possess his books and am at a disadvantage to determine what 
you are citing.

--
John Poole
Editions Poole
http://www.editionspoole.com
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Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs

[Jari Williamsson]

John Poole [Finale Discussion] wrote:
Could you clarify which of Garner Read's books you are citing to?
I am aware of six books he has written and suspect you are referencing
the book entitled Source Book of Proposed Music Notation Reforms 
[I'm quoting since underline/italics is not available].
I do not possess his books and am at a disadvantage to determine what 
you are citing.

Music Notaion (A Manual of Modern Practice)
Best regards,
Jari Williamsson
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Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs

[Johannes Gebauer]

d. collins wrote:
I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending 
on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes.
That depends. 18th and early 19th century tradition in prints is usually 
to have the slur start on the second note. Later 19th and early 20th 
century tradition is to have the slur start on the first note. Today 
both conventions are used. The more traditional way is to start on the 
first note. However, in almost all recent critical editions of 18th 
century music try to be faithful to the earlier tradition (ie start on 
second note). You will see this in editions like the Neue Bach Ausgabe, 
Mozart and Haydn complete edition etc.
And a related question: if one uses so-called European ties that look 
like slurs and a note has both a tie and a slur starting (or ending) on 
it, does one simply move the slur vertically to avoid the collision, or 
does one also move the tie a bit horizontally, and perhaps the slur 
also, so that less vertical movement is required?
Difficult to give a general answer. I usually change both. In fact my 
tie and slur settings compromise so that most of the time I wouldn't 
have to change slurs/ties, if the tie end coincides with the slur 
beginning (ie the critical edition approach which I prefer). When a tie 
and slur beginning coincide I usually move the slur up. Since my ties 
start slightly further to the right of the note I don't have to adjust 
the tie.

The best advice is to look at some editions which you like and see what 
they do.

Johannes
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Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs

[dhbailey]

d. collins wrote:
I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending 
on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes.

And a related question: if one uses so-called European ties that look 
like slurs and a note has both a tie and a slur starting (or ending) on 
it, does one simply move the slur vertically to avoid the collision, or 
does one also move the tie a bit horizontally, and perhaps the slur 
also, so that less vertical movement is required?

The slur should begin with the first of the two tied notes.
The tie should remain close enough to the notehead so as not to leave an 
unsightly gap, and the slur ending would be moved slightly vertically so 
as not to overlap the tie.

In my opinion.
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Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs

[Johannes Gebauer]

dhbailey wrote:
d. collins wrote:
I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending 
on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes.

The slur should begin with the first of the two tied notes.
I don't think there are any grounds for a generalization here. See my 
other post.

Johannes
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Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs

[John Howell]

At 9:58 PM +0200 10/23/04, d. collins wrote:
I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur 
ending on the third note start on the first or the second of the 
tied notes.

And a related question: if one uses so-called European ties that 
look like slurs and a note has both a tie and a slur starting (or 
ending) on it, does one simply move the slur vertically to avoid the 
collision, or does one also move the tie a bit horizontally, and 
perhaps the slur also, so that less vertical movement is required?

Thanks,
Dennis
Personal opinion and nothing more:  while I have seen both 
publications and finale output by amateurs that would slur from the 
2nd note I find it confusing and never use it myself.  The slur 
covers all 3 notes, and I run it from the 1st note to the 3rd.  The 
ties are within that slur.  Others may differ.

John
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Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
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Re: [Finale] Ties ans slurs

[Carl Dershem]

John Howell wrote:
At 9:58 PM +0200 10/23/04, d. collins wrote:
I have two tied notes followed by a third note: should the slur ending 
on the third note start on the first or the second of the tied notes.

And a related question: if one uses so-called European ties that 
look like slurs and a note has both a tie and a slur starting (or 
ending) on it, does one simply move the slur vertically to avoid the 
collision, or does one also move the tie a bit horizontally, and 
perhaps the slur also, so that less vertical movement is required?

Thanks,
Dennis

Personal opinion and nothing more:  while I have seen both publications 
and finale output by amateurs that would slur from the 2nd note I find 
it confusing and never use it myself.  The slur covers all 3 notes, and 
I run it from the 1st note to the 3rd.  The ties are within that slur.  
Others may differ.

John
Agreed.  If you consider the noteheads just as components of the notes, 
you would tie from the beginning of the duration of the sound to the end 
- from the outer boundaries of the ties.  This gives a concept that I 
work from, and the pieces I find easiest to read also work this way

But that's just what works for me.
cd
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Re: [Finale] ties

[laloba2]

Hi All:
How do I put a tie end at the beginning of a line when the key 
signature changes.
I know that you can put a tie end in place by clicking on a note 
with option. It gives you a large number of options, one of which is 
tie end. I can't get it to work with a key change.
I am using FinMac 2005 with OS 10.

Thanks;
Bob Florence
___
In some cases the problem may be with the way finale handles the 
actual key change rather than the ties themselves.  I have noticed 
that sometimes the note after the key change where the tie end should 
be, for whatever reason, ends up being a different note than what you 
think it is.

For instance, if you are in the key of G and you have a C natural 
tied over to the next bar where the key change is, and you are going 
to the key of D, the C where the tie end should be ends up being a C 
sharp rather than a C natural.  Finale sees a C going to a C# and 
knows that there shouldn't be a tie between different notes.  It will 
allow the tie beginning  but not the tie end.  So if you are in 
scroll view, or if the key change is on the same system,  you may not 
notice anything is wrong because the tie beginning looks like it is a 
complete tie.  In this case, if you lower the the tie end note by a 
1/2 step back to a C natural the tie should show up again.

If you ever encounter this, make sure to double check any other parts 
that you have cut and pasted to or from.  There can be other stealth 
mistakes that are easy to overlook.  I have had ties end up looking 
like slurs to another note a half step away after parts are extracted 
and/or transposed.

Take care,
Karen


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[Finale] ties

[Bob Florence]

Hi All:
How do I put a tie end at the beginning of a line when the key 
signature changes.
I know that you can put a tie end in place by clicking on a note with 
option. It gives you a large number of options, one of which is tie 
end. I can't get it to work with a key change.
I am using FinMac 2005 with OS 10.

Thanks;
Bob Florence
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Re: [Finale] ties

[dhbailey]

Bob Florence wrote:
Hi All:
How do I put a tie end at the beginning of a line when the key signature 
changes.
I know that you can put a tie end in place by clicking on a note with 
option. It gives you a large number of options, one of which is tie 
end. I can't get it to work with a key change.
I am using FinMac 2005 with OS 10.

What happens if you work on those notes in scroll view, with a tie 
between the final note of the previous system and the note in question? 
 Seems to me it should tie just fine across systems.

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Re: [Finale] ties

[Eric Dannewitz]

Is this in a repeat? I tried it and it looks like it is there, but it 
doesn't display on the screen. Does it print? I'll try it when I get to 
the studio in a little while...

Hi All:
How do I put a tie end at the beginning of a line when the key 
signature changes.
I know that you can put a tie end in place by clicking on a note with 
option. It gives you a large number of options, one of which is tie 
end. I can't get it to work with a key change.
I am using FinMac 2005 with OS 10.

Thanks;
Bob Florence
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Re: [Finale] ties

[Chuck Israels]

Bob,

There may be a way to do this that someone else knows, but I have not had success using the tie tool when something like a key change gets in the way.  Instead, when the tie tool does not work for a backwards tie end, I simply draw one with the slur tool.  It's not the most elegant solution but, if you draw carefully, you cannot tell much difference.

One other possibility: you may have too small a setting for Document Options/Ties - system break start.  If this is too small, the tie end will not extend far enough backwards over the preceding bar line.  I use at least a -48 setting here.

Chuck


On Sep 18, 2004, at 9:44 AM, Bob Florence wrote:

Hi All:

How do I put a tie end at the beginning of a line when the key signature changes.
I know that you can put a tie end in place by clicking on a note with option. It gives you a large number of options, one of which is tie end. I can't get it to work with a key change.
I am using FinMac 2005 with OS 10.

Thanks;

Bob Florence
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Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com
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Re: [Finale] ties

[Eric Dannewitz]

I believe you found a bug. I just tried putting a tie end in a bar with 
a key change. It shows up using speedy entry, but does not print nor 
display.

Perhaps this needs to be sent to Finale Support, as it appears in the 
Windows and Macintosh versions of Finale 2005.

Bob Florence wrote:
Hi All:
How do I put a tie end at the beginning of a line when the key 
signature changes.
I know that you can put a tie end in place by clicking on a note with 
option. It gives you a large number of options, one of which is tie 
end. I can't get it to work with a key change.
I am using FinMac 2005 with OS 10.

Thanks;
Bob Florence
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Re: [Finale] ties

[JohnBlane]

In a message dated 9/18/04 2:20:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


I believe you found a bug. I just tried putting a tie end in a bar with
a key change. It shows up using speedy entry, but does not print nor
display.

Perhaps this needs to be sent to Finale Support, as it appears in the
Windows and Macintosh versions of Finale 2005.



This problem dates back top at least Finale 2003.
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Re: [Finale] ties

[Richard Walsh]

I think this has been a bug for a long time, no?  Like maybe ever since 
version 1,  when I first bought the software.

RW
On Saturday, September 18, 2004, at 12:19  PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote:
I believe you found a bug. I just tried putting a tie end in a bar 
with a key change. It shows up using speedy entry, but does not print 
nor display.

Perhaps this needs to be sent to Finale Support, as it appears in the 
Windows and Macintosh versions of Finale 2005.

Bob Florence wrote:
Hi All:
How do I put a tie end at the beginning of a line when the key 
signature changes.
I know that you can put a tie end in place by clicking on a note with 
option. It gives you a large number of options, one of which is tie 
end. I can't get it to work with a key change.
I am using FinMac 2005 with OS 10.

Thanks;
Bob Florence
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Re: [Finale] Ties

[Klaas de Jong]

Hi Jane,
Experiment and see what you think is appropriate; you'll probably choose a
value higher than your default document's standard one.
Cheers,
Klaas de Jong

 From: Jane Frasier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 15:29:53 -0600
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Finale] Ties
 
 Do you have a suggestion for what a good setting for that would be?
 
 Jane
 
 On Sep 6, 2004, at 1:28 PM, Klaas de Jong wrote:
 
 And: forgot to mention this: options/doc. opt./music spacing/minimum
 distance between tied notes...
 cheers.
 kdj
 
 From: Klaas de Jong [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 20:44:18 +0200
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Finale] Ties
 
 Hello Jane,
 
 I would make the measures a bit larger, apart from: document/tie
 options,
 mass edit/change ties and/or special tools/tie tool.
 
 From: Jane Frasier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 19:19:14 -0600
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Finale] Ties
 
 Thanks for the ideas. The first suggestion about music spacing
 options
 didn't make any difference.
 
 I tried a few things with the tie options but didn't get any better
 results. Here are links to a couple examples. If anyone has any
 ideas I
 would appreciate it.
 
 http://janefrasier.com/misc/example1.pdf and
 http://janefrasier.com/misc/example2.pdf.
 
 Thanks.
 
 Jane
 
 
 On Sep 3, 2004, at 10:46 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:
 
 
 On Sep 3, 2004, at 7:26 PM, Jane Frasier wrote:
 
 I am using Finale 2004 on Mac, OS 10.3.5.  It seems like ties in
 the
 piece I am working on look awful. If I have chord of 3 notes tied,
 the middle tie is way too narrow. Also if a chord with 4 notes,
 with
 the interval of a second in the middle, the middle ties are
 misplaced. Has any one else seen this? Is there a cure?
 
 For the middle tie being too short, the setting you need to change
 is
 under Music Spacing Options (Options  Document Settings  Music
 Spacing Options*.  Change the value for Minimum Distance Between
 Notes with Ties to something larger.  The tie is going to squeeze
 itself into whatever space there is, but this value makes sure that
 when the music is spaced it leaves enough room for a longer tie.
 
 The rest of the settings you want are under Options  Document
 Settings  Tie Options*. I've been using my own Tie Option settings
 for so long that I don't even remember what values are set in the
 default templates, but I vaguely recall being dissatisfied with
 them.
 
 I'm not sure what you mean by the middle ties being misplaced.  If
 you're unhappy with the choices of over vs under, try a different
 selection under Tie Direction  Chords.  The three options are three
 different algorithms for determining up or down for the ties in the
 middle of the chord.  Perhaps the rule you consider correct is not
 the
 same one you have selected.
 
 Lots of other tie settings you twiddle with there.  Even when you
 get
 the settings you like best, there will still be cases where you have
 to adjust them manually to get it just right.
 
 mdl
 
 * I'm on Fin Mac 2k2s. The menu locations may be a little different
 in
 whatever version you're on, but the same panels will be there
 somewhere.
 
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Re: [Finale] Ties

[Jane Frasier]

Do you have a suggestion for what a good setting for that would be?
Jane
On Sep 6, 2004, at 1:28 PM, Klaas de Jong wrote:
And: forgot to mention this: options/doc. opt./music spacing/minimum
distance between tied notes...
cheers.
kdj
From: Klaas de Jong [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 20:44:18 +0200
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Finale] Ties
Hello Jane,
I would make the measures a bit larger, apart from: document/tie 
options,
mass edit/change ties and/or special tools/tie tool.

From: Jane Frasier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 19:19:14 -0600
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Finale] Ties
Thanks for the ideas. The first suggestion about music spacing 
options
didn't make any difference.

I tried a few things with the tie options but didn't get any better
results. Here are links to a couple examples. If anyone has any 
ideas I
would appreciate it.

http://janefrasier.com/misc/example1.pdf and
http://janefrasier.com/misc/example2.pdf.
Thanks.
Jane
On Sep 3, 2004, at 10:46 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:
On Sep 3, 2004, at 7:26 PM, Jane Frasier wrote:
I am using Finale 2004 on Mac, OS 10.3.5.  It seems like ties in 
the
piece I am working on look awful. If I have chord of 3 notes tied,
the middle tie is way too narrow. Also if a chord with 4 notes, 
with
the interval of a second in the middle, the middle ties are
misplaced. Has any one else seen this? Is there a cure?
For the middle tie being too short, the setting you need to change 
is
under Music Spacing Options (Options  Document Settings  Music
Spacing Options*.  Change the value for Minimum Distance Between
Notes with Ties to something larger.  The tie is going to squeeze
itself into whatever space there is, but this value makes sure that
when the music is spaced it leaves enough room for a longer tie.

The rest of the settings you want are under Options  Document
Settings  Tie Options*. I've been using my own Tie Option settings
for so long that I don't even remember what values are set in the
default templates, but I vaguely recall being dissatisfied with 
them.

I'm not sure what you mean by the middle ties being misplaced.  If
you're unhappy with the choices of over vs under, try a different
selection under Tie Direction  Chords.  The three options are three
different algorithms for determining up or down for the ties in the
middle of the chord.  Perhaps the rule you consider correct is not 
the
same one you have selected.

Lots of other tie settings you twiddle with there.  Even when you 
get
the settings you like best, there will still be cases where you have
to adjust them manually to get it just right.

mdl
* I'm on Fin Mac 2k2s. The menu locations may be a little different 
in
whatever version you're on, but the same panels will be there
somewhere.

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Re: [Finale] Ties

[Mark D Lew]

And: forgot to mention this: options/doc. opt./music spacing/minimum
distance between tied notes...

Do you have a suggestion for what a good setting for that would be?
I use 48 evpu.  That's assuming zero for H Tie Placement for inner ties.
mdl
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Re: [Finale] Ties

[Jane Frasier]

Thanks for the ideas. The first suggestion about music spacing options 
didn't make any difference.

I tried a few things with the tie options but didn't get any better 
results. Here are links to a couple examples. If anyone has any ideas I 
would appreciate it.

http://janefrasier.com/misc/example1.pdf and 
http://janefrasier.com/misc/example2.pdf.

Thanks.
Jane
On Sep 3, 2004, at 10:46 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:
On Sep 3, 2004, at 7:26 PM, Jane Frasier wrote:
I am using Finale 2004 on Mac, OS 10.3.5.  It seems like ties in the 
piece I am working on look awful. If I have chord of 3 notes tied, 
the middle tie is way too narrow. Also if a chord with 4 notes, with 
the interval of a second in the middle, the middle ties are 
misplaced. Has any one else seen this? Is there a cure?
For the middle tie being too short, the setting you need to change is 
under Music Spacing Options (Options  Document Settings  Music 
Spacing Options*.  Change the value for Minimum Distance Between 
Notes with Ties to something larger.  The tie is going to squeeze 
itself into whatever space there is, but this value makes sure that 
when the music is spaced it leaves enough room for a longer tie.

The rest of the settings you want are under Options  Document 
Settings  Tie Options*. I've been using my own Tie Option settings 
for so long that I don't even remember what values are set in the 
default templates, but I vaguely recall being dissatisfied with them.

I'm not sure what you mean by the middle ties being misplaced.  If 
you're unhappy with the choices of over vs under, try a different 
selection under Tie Direction  Chords.  The three options are three 
different algorithms for determining up or down for the ties in the 
middle of the chord.  Perhaps the rule you consider correct is not the 
same one you have selected.

Lots of other tie settings you twiddle with there.  Even when you get 
the settings you like best, there will still be cases where you have 
to adjust them manually to get it just right.

mdl
* I'm on Fin Mac 2k2s. The menu locations may be a little different in 
whatever version you're on, but the same panels will be there 
somewhere.

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RE: [Finale] Ties

[Keith Helgesen]

Are you adding ties singly or 'en masse'? I had trouble when adding ties
singly, but adding by clicking on stem of chord seems to work OK.
If not this, then- sorry! 
Cheers Keith in OZ

Keith Helgesen.
Director of Music, Canberra City Band.
Ph: (02) 62910787. Band Mob. 0436-620587
Private Mob 0417-042171

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Jane Frasier
Sent: Saturday, 4 September 2004 12:26 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Finale] Ties

I am using Finale 2004 on Mac, OS 10.3.5.  It seems like ties in the 
piece I am working on look awful. If I have chord of 3 notes tied, the 
middle tie is way too narrow. Also if a chord with 4 notes, with the 
interval of a second in the middle, the middle ties are misplaced. Has 
any one else seen this? Is there a cure?

Thanks.

Jane Frasier

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Re: [Finale] Ties

[Jane Frasier]

I was adding them for the whole chord at once.
Jane
On Sep 3, 2004, at 8:50 PM, Keith Helgesen wrote:
Are you adding ties singly or 'en masse'? I had trouble when adding 
ties
singly, but adding by clicking on stem of chord seems to work OK.
If not this, then- sorry!
Cheers Keith in OZ

Keith Helgesen.
Director of Music, Canberra City Band.
Ph: (02) 62910787. Band Mob. 0436-620587
Private Mob 0417-042171
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of
Jane Frasier
Sent: Saturday, 4 September 2004 12:26 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Finale] Ties

I am using Finale 2004 on Mac, OS 10.3.5.  It seems like ties in the
piece I am working on look awful. If I have chord of 3 notes tied, the
middle tie is way too narrow. Also if a chord with 4 notes, with the
interval of a second in the middle, the middle ties are misplaced. Has
any one else seen this? Is there a cure?
Thanks.
Jane Frasier
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Re: [Finale] Ties

[Mark D Lew]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 7:26 PM, Jane Frasier wrote:
I am using Finale 2004 on Mac, OS 10.3.5.  It seems like ties in the 
piece I am working on look awful. If I have chord of 3 notes tied, the 
middle tie is way too narrow. Also if a chord with 4 notes, with the 
interval of a second in the middle, the middle ties are misplaced. Has 
any one else seen this? Is there a cure?
For the middle tie being too short, the setting you need to change is 
under Music Spacing Options (Options  Document Settings  Music 
Spacing Options*.  Change the value for Minimum Distance Between Notes 
with Ties to something larger.  The tie is going to squeeze itself 
into whatever space there is, but this value makes sure that when the 
music is spaced it leaves enough room for a longer tie.

The rest of the settings you want are under Options  Document Settings 
 Tie Options*. I've been using my own Tie Option settings for so long 
that I don't even remember what values are set in the default 
templates, but I vaguely recall being dissatisfied with them.

I'm not sure what you mean by the middle ties being misplaced.  If 
you're unhappy with the choices of over vs under, try a different 
selection under Tie Direction  Chords.  The three options are three 
different algorithms for determining up or down for the ties in the 
middle of the chord.  Perhaps the rule you consider correct is not the 
same one you have selected.

Lots of other tie settings you twiddle with there.  Even when you get 
the settings you like best, there will still be cases where you have to 
adjust them manually to get it just right.

mdl
* I'm on Fin Mac 2k2s. The menu locations may be a little different in 
whatever version you're on, but the same panels will be there 
somewhere.

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Re: [Finale] Ties and slurs

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 29.05.2004 16:22 Uhr, d. collins wrote

 A question for those of you who use so-called European style ties - i.e.
 ties that start and finish at the same places as slurs, rather then between
 the two notes: should the shape of these ties be basically the same as that
 of slurs? In other words, if I put a slur and a tie between two identical
 notes, should they overlap?

I am not sure whether I understand this correctly, but slurs and ties should
never touch. If a tie end and a slur beginning coincide then ideally both
must be moved a little off-center. If a note starts both a tie and a slur
the slur should be on the outside, further away from the note.

I have resorted to using somewhat compromised settings for ties, which avoid
collisions in most cases.

Johannes
-- 
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

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Re: [Finale] Ties and slurs

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 29.05.2004 16:47 Uhr, d. collins wrote

 Thanks, Johannes, but my question was about the shape of ties and slurs:
 should they be the same? The only reason I mentioned putting both a tie and
 a slur was to compare the shapes. I have the feeling that in some
 publications slurs are arched a bit more than ties.

I think you will see both. Some publishers use ties identical to slurs, some
use slightly flatter ties, and some also slightly alter the placements.

In Finale there is a limit on how similar you can make the two, as both have
sligthly different options. Ties avoid stafflines at their center but not at
the tips, while slurs avoid stafflines only at the tips.
I have a TieMover setting for fixing the tie ends on staff lines. For slur
centers I sometimes fix this manually, but since it is only relevant for
horizontal slurs it doesn't seem to happen all that often.

Otherwise I have pretty much the same shape for ties and slurs, although the
placement is a little different (but not as much as to really catch the
eye).

Johannes
-- 
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

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