Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
I think Apple should be applauded on their decision to move to a modern operating system. It was a big move, totally rewriting a new system from the ground up took vision to make it successful and guts to do it in the first place. U UNIX is not new eye candy, it would have been awesome if they really did write a new code. Oh yeah...for those of you/us still running OS 9.It's been considered a dead OS for a couple of years now. Get with the times or QYB. Apple should not waste any more time or money un-developing their software so that it will run on machines that are years old. 18 months is a LIFETIME in the world of computing. Oh please, so every 18 months I am supposed to get a new computer just because Apple decides to go sideways. The good thing about Apple WAS that the were well built, software would run and upgrade for the last 9 years. This is a FORCED change and some people, the loyal Apple followers feel a little screwed. Give Apple $3500 bucks every 18 months, maybe a few professionals, not the average user. Macs were built to last, now their are just problems filled windoz boxes. My 1995 to 2000 power books and desk tops run fine. I have 2 pismos dead in 2 years, that's quality. share if they actually spent a bit more time understanding how to treat their customers ever had to return/fix a machine?. Yes 2 times I paid for the 1st pismo $345.00/ Just to run JAG OS 9 ran fine. It was here I discovered the beast under the candy. The one under Apple Care for 3 more months they claimed something was spilled in the pismo *sometime* in the last 6 months. Ya right.. Found out from ex apple care workers this is a standard response. They broke my power cord and killed my battery. Apple's Ms. Wells, the top manager of Apple care, has an office next to steve, denied ever touching those parts funny they had Apple bar codes and writing on the battery and power cord. They lie. The company is changing and if you look to the future in 5 years are we still going to be typing on silly machine that takes more work to read the manuals to make it work at it's MAX productivity. I think not. Their going to bleed us while they can. Apple has changed and some very loyal customers are not happy. Check the boards Geoff I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery. - Thomas Jefferson -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 12:50 AM, Geoffrey Loeffler wrote: I think Apple should be applauded on their decision to move to a modern operating system. It was a big move, totally rewriting a new system from the ground up took vision to make it successful and guts to do it in the first place. U UNIX is not new eye candy, it would have been awesome if they really did write a new code. They did, a ton of it. The entire GUI, and a significant chunk of the underlying OS. If you doubt that look at diffs between their starting BSD code and the current version of Darwin. Go ahead, all the source code is there, you can look at it. Moreover, OSX is so much better than OS 9 it's not even funny. Oh please, so every 18 months I am supposed to get a new computer just because Apple decides to go sideways. The good thing about Apple WAS that the were well built, software would run and upgrade for the last 9 years. This is a FORCED change and some people, the loyal Apple followers feel a little screwed. What, your system simply stop working? NO, you're PM-ing that Apple won't support your old system with new software. Deal with it. No one is coming to your door with a gun to your head forcing you to buy this. Lordy I sound like a broken record here: Apple is a hardware company. They give cool software away with their hardware as the inducement to buy it. They sell software that only works with their later (not even latest...OSX runs quite happily on Beige G3's, hell it even runs on old PowerPC's, though not officially) hardware because a) they *do*want you to buy new hardware, as it is their lifeblood, as a business, and b) it is a waste of resources, from their point of view, to write software that works on radically different architectures, *especially* when those systems *can* run the current software. That you have had problems updating *your* machine does not mean that all of that model have problems. I've installed OSX without a hitch on Wallstreets and Pismos. They can run ITMS quite happily. problem solved. share if they actually spent a bit more time understanding how to treat their customers ever had to return/fix a machine?. Yes 2 times I paid for the 1st pismo $345.00/ Just to run JAG OS 9 ran fine. It was here I discovered the beast under the candy. The one under Apple Care for 3 more months they claimed something was spilled in the pismo *sometime* in the last 6 months. Ya right.. Found out from ex apple care workers this is a standard response. Now, there's a reliable source of information: ex-employees. None of whom *ever* have a grudge or anything. Oddly, it is not the response given to anyone I've known who sent their malfunctioning laptop in. They lie. The company is changing and if you look to the future in 5 years are we still going to be typing on silly machine that takes more work to read the manuals to make it work at it's MAX productivity. Umm, what are you talking about? I've never cracked a manual for OS X yet, though I'll admit to running a man page or three. I think not. Their going to bleed us while they can. ' Oh ho! Apple Doomed; Details at eleven! Apple has changed and some very loyal customers are not happy. Check the boards The Boardsyou mean the squeaky wheel fests online? Just remember this: The plural of anecdote is not data. People post to (and browse) these forums *because* they have problems. That's an automatic bias and concentration right there. Of course if you look at these boards you'll think that Apple is the crappiest company on earth that completely hates it's customers. The majority of people have experienced quite good customer service from Apple, which is why they come out at or near the top in customer satisfaction surveys run by reputable folks, like JD Powers. These are actual quantitative measures, gotten by asking a representative portion of a company's customers; if Apple's customer service was as bad as you're saying, it would show when it was measured. -- Wherever you go, there you are. - B. Banzai, Ph.D. Bruce Johnson -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On Nov 1, 2003, at 1:50 AM, Geoffrey Loeffler wrote: Oh please, so every 18 months I am supposed to get a new computer just because Apple decides to go sideways. The good thing about Apple WAS that the were well built, software would run and upgrade for the last 9 years. This is a FORCED change and some people, the loyal Apple followers feel a little screwed. Give Apple $3500 bucks every 18 months, maybe a few professionals, not the average user. Macs were built to last, now their are just problems filled windoz boxes. My 1995 to 2000 power books and desk tops run fine. I have 2 pismos dead in 2 years, that's quality. Forced? I guess your definition and the Webster's differ. There are still people running pre-PowerPC Macs so how are you forced? share if they actually spent a bit more time understanding how to treat their customers ever had to return/fix a machine?. Yes 2 times I paid for the 1st pismo $345.00/ Just to run JAG OS 9 ran fine. It was here I discovered the beast under the candy. The one under Apple Care for 3 more months they claimed something was spilled in the pismo *sometime* in the last 6 months. Ya right.. Found out from ex apple care workers this is a standard response. They broke my power cord and killed my battery. Apple's Ms. Wells, the top manager of Apple care, has an office next to steve, denied ever touching those parts funny they had Apple bar codes and writing on the battery and power cord. They lie. The company is changing and if you look to the future in 5 years are we still going to be typing on silly machine that takes more work to read the manuals to make it work at it's MAX productivity. I think not. Their going to bleed us while they can. Apple has changed and some very loyal customers are not happy. Check the boards Geoff Right ... troll. David -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On 10/28/03 10:22 PM, Kyle Hansen wrote: Oh yeah...for those of you/us still running OS 9.It's been considered a dead OS for a couple of years now. Get with the times or QYB. Apple should not waste any more time or money un-developing their software so that it will run on machines that are years old. 18 months is a LIFETIME in the world of computing. If you can't handle that fact then you need a reality check. You shouldn't be biting the hand that feeds you (aka suing apple). All that I sgoing to do is hurt us all in the long run. First, I think most lawsuits (including probably the current Apple one) do more to line the pockets of the lawyers than accomplish anything for the claimants. But after that, I find it a tad two-faced of Apple that they will support Windows 2000 for iTunes and the Music Store (an OS which is much older than MacOS 9.x), but not Mac users running MacOS 9.x. As I wrote in feedback to Apple, it's like telling those who haven't been able to afford the hardware and software upgrades You'd be better off buying a Wintel box so far as being able to access the Music Store. And yes, there's some inaccuracy in that analogy, but it is arrogant of Apple to provide support for an older Windoze OS when they choose not to support MacOS 9.x users. It's like a slap in the face, IMHO. And I suspect the main reason is that Emporer Steve wants to force more MacOS 9.x users to upgrade and line Apple's pockets. As I said in my feedback, I may just go find a used copy of Jaguar and NOT line Apple's pockets out of mine. My rant, Jim Well the way I see it, logic is only a way of being ignorant by numbers. -- Didactylos (taken from Terry Pratchett's Small Gods) -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Jim's Rant: But after that, I find it a tad two-faced of Apple that they will support Windows 2000 for iTunes and the Music Store (an OS which is much older than MacOS 9.x), but not Mac users running MacOS 9.x. I think the decision to include Windows for the music store stems strictly from a business point of view. There are more Windows users world-wide than Mac users, and as of today, many have not adopted XP but remain with the last operating system W2000. Apple as a company must make its investment pay out and including Windows users with Ipods and access to the music store only makes sense. Supporting W2000 was just a necessity in order to capture the larger market share. I believe Apple is on the right track, they have been receiving great reviews from many PC industry sources. The over-all reviews have been very positive in these corporate technical sites, magazines and reports on OSX. I personally think it is the greatest operating system they have ever made and was glad to finally leave OS9 behind. I did have to sell all of my peripherals and purchase new ones and am currently upgrading all the software, but I think it is worth every cent I have spent. Lets face it, even the peripherals are better, my Epson scanner SCSI costs $1400 when I bought it and it scans at only 600 dpi (and is s slow), the new Microtek is 2400 dpi and I paid about $100 new. This goes for the new printer, the firewire external hard drive, etc, all are better, faster and cost less. I think Apple should be applauded on their decision to move to a modern operating system. It was a big move, totally rewriting a new system from the ground up took vision to make it successful and guts to do it in the first place. My $0.02... Wayne Schneck -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 10:47 AM, Wayne wrote: Jim's Rant: But after that, I find it a tad two-faced of Apple that they will support Windows 2000 for iTunes and the Music Store (an OS which is much older than MacOS 9.x), but not Mac users running MacOS 9.x. I think the decision to include Windows for the music store stems strictly from a business point of view. There are more Windows users world-wide than Mac users, and as of today, many have not adopted XP but remain with the last operating system W2000. Apple as a company must make its investment pay out and including Windows users with Ipods and access to the music store only makes sense. Supporting W2000 was just a necessity in order to capture the larger market share. I also expect that supporting Win2K was pretty much a 'no-effort' deal...WinXP is largely WIn2K with more drivers, a gaudy new interface, and a few new features. Very few programs will run on one, but not the other. OS 9, to Apple is like supporting Win98, which they're not doing, (and which is causing considerable howling in the Windows world as well. LOTS of folks still run Win98 for some ungodly reason...I suspect they like hitting themselves in the forehead with a ball-peen hammer a lot, as well. Win98 (and worse WinME) are truly awful. Win2k is actually usable.) -- Wherever you go, there you are. - B. Banzai, Ph.D. Bruce Johnson -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On 10/29/03 3:24 AM, Steve Kidd apparently wrote: ...Better that than just continually upgrade an old OS, that is so full of security vulnerabilities and other problems that it costs its users huge amounts of cash just to maintain it. Now let's see... are you talking about MacOS X here, or Windows (pick your version)? ;-) Jim Rohde -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
I've lived over 65 years without iTunes. I plan on doing the same thing for the second half. On 10/28/03 10:22 PM, Kyle Hansen wrote: Oh yeah...for those of you/us still running OS 9.It's been considered a dead OS for a couple of years now. Get with the times or QYB. Apple should not waste any more time or money un-developing their software so that it will run on machines that are years old. 18 months is a LIFETIME in the world of computing. If you can't handle that fact then you need a reality check. You shouldn't be biting the hand that feeds you (aka suing apple). All that I sgoing to do is hurt us all in the long run. First, I think most lawsuits (including probably the current Apple one) do more to line the pockets of the lawyers than accomplish anything for the claimants. But after that, I find it a tad two-faced of Apple that they will support Windows 2000 for iTunes and the Music Store (an OS which is much older than MacOS 9.x), but not Mac users running MacOS 9.x. As I wrote in feedback to Apple, it's like telling those who haven't been able to afford the hardware and software upgrades You'd be better off buying a Wintel box so far as being able to access the Music Store. And yes, there's some inaccuracy in that analogy, but it is arrogant of Apple to provide support for an older Windoze OS when they choose not to support MacOS 9.x users. It's like a slap in the face, IMHO. And I suspect the main reason is that Emporer Steve wants to force more MacOS 9.x users to upgrade and line Apple's pockets. As I said in my feedback, I may just go find a used copy of Jaguar and NOT line Apple's pockets out of mine. My rant, Jim Well the way I see it, logic is only a way of being ignorant by numbers. -- Didactylos (taken from Terry Pratchett's Small Gods) -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com --- -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
But Apple does have control where the serial port issue was concerned. And they chose not to write support for the serial port into the OS. And this was a major issue to a lot of people. Especially those who had big bucks wrapped up in peripherals (laser printers, scanners, cameras, modems) that suddenly wouldn't work anymore. With laser printers at least you do have other options. Most support a network protocol. For $60 on ebay you can pick up an appletalk to ethernet bridge. OS X has basic support for all printers (most printers will work from a generic driver), and you can add in the gimp print drivers (which add specific support for a great many legacy printers, so long as they are hooked up to a USB or ethernet port). Some standard serial port printers will also work with USB-serial adapters. Not all of them will, though. There are several adapters out there. Belkin makes a few. Can be had on ebay for around $30-45 used. These may also work for modems, though I am not sure. Go to the Belkin site for more info. IIRC, OS X will support the internal modems of older systems. Scanners are a different matter. Generally, the scanner maker is to blame if it doesn't work with OS X. It's up to them to write drivers. For instance, OS X supports my SCSI card but the driver for the scanner (a photoshop plugin) doesn't work. The reason is that with OS X, plugins/software don't talk directly to hardware (such as ports, PCI cards, etc.) the way they did in 9. It's up to the manufacturer to re-write the plugin. Digital cameras should also work with a serial-usb adapter. Not all of the will work this way. Depends on whether Apple has written in support directly to iPhoto. Otherwise, contact the manufacturer. Like scanners, it's their job to make this work. Not Apple's. Our only other choice was to trash our serial stuff, buy a USB card and USB peripherals, and hope they had drivers for X. Generally speaking, this isn't an issue. If you're at the store, it says right on the box if they support use in OS X. If you're buying online, you may need to research a little more. In either case, you should never ever have to purchase something before knowing it will work with OS X. Hamlin -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
I think that all of this stems directly from the Mac culture itself. The Mac is a drastically less used, more expensive, and a slower computer (sorry guysbenchmarks vs reality). Despite those huge marketing nightmare's many of us in the culture (as defined when you put down your hard earned $$ on a Mac) expect more than our constantly complaining Window's compadre. The facts are hard...that those who buy Mac's fit one of three patternsthey make their living on a Mac, they want to make a living on a Mac, or they love the obviously superior OS. For the first group, an upgrade is simply a necessity of business. For the second group, an upgrade is usually at a student discount brought to you by student loans. For the third group, an upgrade (or rather 4 in 4 years) is almost as great of a financial strain as the damn computer itself. Simply putMac user's spend a great deal of time talking about their Mac. Bragging even. And then they find that the $3000 they spent three years ago is now completely obsolete (even an old Dell runs WinDoze XP with minor hardware upgrades)...and well, that hurts. Blame whomever you like, the pain is still there..in my years as a #3 I often questioned just what the hell I was doing and why. By the time I am able to afford a new powerbook they'll have G6's (if Moto and IBM ever kick it into gear). My Wallstreet, while still functional is OSX Jag, doesn't have Panthercan't have Panther. Am I complaining? At first I did. At every chance. Now I just grin and bear itand the keyboard of the Wallstreet will get dusty from neglect and the three year old Dell with the inferior OS will be used more and more. I feel a tad neglected, rejected even.but it's all about money kidsApple can't spend the next two years updating their OS to run on every computer made in the last 4 yearsthat's Microsoft's job.and while producing an inferior OS, they still have 95% of the market. Apple is blessed. If they showed their customers 1/4 of the dedication their customer's showed them.they might have a chance in this market. Mac forevereven if it's just a museum piece, ed j -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On Tuesday, October 28, 2003, at 11:11 PM, Edward Jackson wrote: The Mac is a drastically less used, more expensive, and a slower computer (sorry guysbenchmarks vs reality). (Large amount snipped, but you get the gist) It always distresses me when I hear a fellow Mac user buy into the dark side's specious arguments. I'm not going to go through every point in Edward's post, but I 'll quickly hit these three points at the end of my post. As to the rest of the rant, well, it's a bit misleading to say that the situation with OS X not working on older machines is a common one. Apple took a big step when they brought in OS X, and optimized it for only the most recent hardware, but IMNSHO, they needed to in order to introduce what a really modern OS. Better that than just continually upgrade an old OS, that is so full of security vulnerabilities and other problems that it costs its users huge amounts of cash just to maintain it. It isn't the first time that Apple has made a group of machines obsolescent, but it was the first time it was for such recent machines. Case in point, OS 9 won't run on pre PPC macs. but it does run on all the second generation PPC's. That's all the way back to, what, 1992? In my books, that's pretty fair support. The switchover to OS X was a matter of necessity, and the limitations of their real-world ability to support older machines. Now to quickly address those three PC user style points: 1) Macs aren't drastically less used, the Mac OS is, but only as compared to Windows. When looking at computer manufacturers, Apple was, for a long time, second only to Dell in market share. (I suspect they have slipped a bit, but then what hasn't in computers lately.) 2) Macs are more expensive. Well, I haven't done the comparison recently, but every time I've compared a new Mac price to a same quality, same feature PC, the final price is within the +- $100 range. Rather than comparing Mac prices to a Compaq with a low quality processor, try comparing against the equivalent model in Dell's Workstation line. Yes, Macs are pricey, but so are top of the line PC's. 3) Macs are slower. I've never put much faith in benchmarks either, but my experience is that Macs are as far from being comparatively slow. The first PC I used for any length of time had a PII/350. My Mac at the time was a 604/200. Real world, intensive photoshop use, Mac was as fast or faster. Nowadays the PC I use at university is a 1 Ghz machine, and side by side, my Pismo (G3/500) is only marginally slower on a heavy photoshop render. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
on 10/28/03 10:50 PM, John Acuff at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Apple does have control where the serial port issue was concerned. And they chose not to write support for the serial port into the OS. And this was a major issue to a lot of people. Especially those who had big bucks wrapped up in peripherals (laser printers, scanners, cameras, modems) that suddenly wouldn't work anymore. Our only other choice was to trash our serial stuff, buy a USB card and USB peripherals, and hope they had drivers for X. Look how long it took to get scanners that would work under X! I personally have a perfectly good Personal Laserwriter that was only usable on my Beige G3 by going into Classic and printing what I had done in X. Not exactly user friendly. Many of us kept hoping against hope that eventually Apple would do the right thing, and add serial port support into a revision at some point so that we would finally be able to use our investment in peripherals again, but by 10.2, I knew it wasn't going to happen and bought a BW and a cheap USB printer. Still, every time I look at that Laserwriter sitting there collecting dust, I get a frustrated feeling. Yes, I love Apple too, and OS X, and I would never want to have to go back to the PC (Winblows) world I used to live in, but this is one time that I really wish that Apple had done things differently. And I'm looking at the same thing all over again with Panther. I just finally get a Powerbook (Wallstreet) capable of running X, and I won't be able to run the latest version on it. And my Beige G3 is of course left out. What will it be next version? Native G4 machines only? Just my .02 John, My feeling is that what you are asking is like hoping that Ford will design a 2004 Mustang with all new engine, amenities and traction but can also use 1966 Mustang wheels and tires because you already bought them and they are just sitting in your garage doing nothing. Solution to the car dilemma: Ride the classic boat and take pride in it. Solution to the computer dilemma: Ride the classic boat and take pride in it. Run -- G4 dp MD, 1.25ghz, 2 gig ram, 240 gigs HD, Fuse, Audio Media, Serial, TV Tuner cards, Sony DV/Analogue Converter; Last dual boot G4, OS 9.2.2 X.2.6 iBook, 600mhz, 640 ram, 20 gig HD, Airport, iMic, Micro Mouse, 20 gig Ext. Firewire drive; OS 9.2.2 X.2.6 Pismo 400mhz, 640 ram, 40 gig HD, Airport, CapSure, USB FlyLight; OS 9.2.2 X.2.6 1400c 466 G3, 64 ram, 256 Flash Ram, 20 gig HD, Orinoco Silver Wireless, CardCam, 56K Modem/Ethernet, ADB FlyLight; OS 9.1 -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On 10/29/03 2:11 AM, Edward Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that all of this stems directly from the Mac culture itself. The Mac is a drastically less used, more expensive, and a slower computer (sorry guysbenchmarks vs reality). What do you mean by more expensive? The price is higher or the value is lower? If you mean that the Mac price is higher then you are right. I can buy a PC for a lower price than my Mac. But I get more for my money. My Mac comes with features that are extras on the PC. My Mac won't cause me the same headaches that my PC will. I won't be installing new updates to my OS every week (each one needed and each one possibly wrecking my OS. And yes, I know that MS is now scheduling them monthly. That just means that my computer is more vulnerable for 29 days than it used to be for 6 days) And when I decide to sell my Mac, several years after I've already sold the PC, I will be able to get more for it. As for the speed issue. Sigh...yes, my PC desktop is much faster than my Mac - but it doesn't let me write reports any faster. I don't put out a newsletter any faster. I don't browse the internet any faster. I don't write/read email any faster. The facts are hard...that those who buy Mac's fit one of three patternsthey make their living on a Mac, they want to make a living on a Mac, or they love the obviously superior OS. You have described a group of Mac owners but you have left out a very large group - probably the largest. People buy a Mac because it works and it lets them work. It doesn't grab the user by the nose and force him/her into a pattern decided upon by the programmers. It doesn't assume the user is a moron and needs a wizard. It lets the user get on with the job at hand and stays out of the way. Mac forevereven if it's just a museum piece, Don't you dare call my SE/30 a museum piece - it has a vastly important job - delivering and receiving email for a small non-profit organization. How many 1990 PCs do you know of that are still running without having visited the computer doctor? david -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
This thread seems to be running somewhat far afield, but I just wanted to share that I am running OS X 10.2.6 on my Lombard and it works great! Also, I have my old Apple LaserWriter hooked up to my laptop via ethernet. How is that you might ask? Well, I bought an ethernet to serial adapter. When I bought mine it was from Farallon, I think they are sold through Proxim now. It works great right out of the box. The drivers and the networking were completely painless to set up. On the other hand I do have an old serial scanner that doesn't play nice with OS X. Too bad. I think we all have to come to grips the process of technology. Stuff gets old and if we want to stay up with the latest and the greatest, we are going to have to make changes with hardware as well as software. Lawrence On Wednesday, October 29, 2003, at 05:34 PM, Illovox Media wrote: on 10/28/03 10:50 PM, John Acuff at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Apple does have control where the serial port issue was concerned. And they chose not to write support for the serial port into the OS. And this was a major issue to a lot of people. Especially those who had big bucks wrapped up in peripherals (laser printers, scanners, cameras, modems) that suddenly wouldn't work anymore. Our only other choice was to trash our serial stuff, buy a USB card and USB peripherals, and hope they had drivers for X. Look how long it took to get scanners that would work under X! I personally have a perfectly good Personal Laserwriter that was only usable on my Beige G3 by going into Classic and printing what I had done in X. Not exactly user friendly. Many of us kept hoping against hope that eventually Apple would do the right thing, and add serial port support into a revision at some point so that we would finally be able to use our investment in peripherals again, but by 10.2, I knew it wasn't going to happen and bought a BW and a cheap USB printer. Still, every time I look at that Laserwriter sitting there collecting dust, I get a frustrated feeling. Yes, I love Apple too, and OS X, and I would never want to have to go back to the PC (Winblows) world I used to live in, but this is one time that I really wish that Apple had done things differently. And I'm looking at the same thing all over again with Panther. I just finally get a Powerbook (Wallstreet) capable of running X, and I won't be able to run the latest version on it. And my Beige G3 is of course left out. What will it be next version? Native G4 machines only? Just my .02 John, My feeling is that what you are asking is like hoping that Ford will design a 2004 Mustang with all new engine, amenities and traction but can also use 1966 Mustang wheels and tires because you already bought them and they are just sitting in your garage doing nothing. Solution to the car dilemma: Ride the classic boat and take pride in it. Solution to the computer dilemma: Ride the classic boat and take pride in it. Run -- G4 dp MD, 1.25ghz, 2 gig ram, 240 gigs HD, Fuse, Audio Media, Serial, TV Tuner cards, Sony DV/Analogue Converter; Last dual boot G4, OS 9.2.2 X.2.6 iBook, 600mhz, 640 ram, 20 gig HD, Airport, iMic, Micro Mouse, 20 gig Ext. Firewire drive; OS 9.2.2 X.2.6 Pismo 400mhz, 640 ram, 40 gig HD, Airport, CapSure, USB FlyLight; OS 9.2.2 X.2.6 1400c 466 G3, 64 ram, 256 Flash Ram, 20 gig HD, Orinoco Silver Wireless, CardCam, 56K Modem/Ethernet, ADB FlyLight; OS 9.1 -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com --- -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
After reading many, many posts on this topic, (and a lot of those getting a little heated) could I just point out that there are an enormous number of people out there using the Macintosh, (yes, it is maybe only a small number compared to windows, but it is still a big number.) Inevitably, not all of those are going to have the latest and greatest machines, and as has already been mentioned, Macs seem to last a while, so chances are that of all the ³affected² machines, a good number of them are still being used by this very diverse Macintosh community. Instead of getting overly angry at each other, perhaps just take a step back, acknowledge that different people 'think different' (hint hint...) and move on. If you want to sue, go ahead, if you don't, then don't. Personally I agree with the opinion of 'it will com back and bite you in the ass'. As for the various arguments of whether or not this hardware works with that driver, if you want people to believe what you are saying, you will need to provide proof. The 'because I say so' attitude in various posts isn't overly convincing, and will only fuel the argument. I do not mean to insult anyone with this post, but rather wish to encourage us all to 'cool down'. My 2 cents. Wiebe. Running 10.2.8 on a 500Mhz iBook and loving it. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
There are two problems with your argument: 1) ATi did provide OpenGL support in their universal drivers, but this only worked on the RagePro LT in PowerBooks *IF* you had Apple's ATi accelerator already installed, since Apple used ATI's reference drivers to write the drivers for the LT chip. 2) ATi does not provide core drivers for laptops, never did, never will. They state this on their website, and the lack of ability to get drivers for any laptop chip from them for the Mac helps prove this. The only way I can get OS 9 video drivers for the LT is to install OS 9, there is no third-party way to do it. The OpenGL/RAVE argument is moot because they are APIs, you can slap any API onto any chipset you like with interoperability. As shown by the support for Rage, RAVE, and OpenGL acceleration under OS 9 (Glide was 3dfx's answer to RAVE, before a standard 3D API came out, OpenGL). Heck, ATi could have supported Glide, but why support the competition? I personally am not expecting phenomenal performance from an LT chipset... but leaving a 3D chipset disabled for *3* years is borderline arrogant. Especially when the laptop in question was at about one year of age when OS X shipped. Sure it is a little late now to really do anything because now the chipset IS ancient. However, I don't agree with Apple's position to kill support for a chipset that they pushed as being one of the best laptop chipsets a year later. My complaints come from the facts at hand (it IS possible to do OpenGL on it, ATi showed that... and ATi has had the stance for years that laptop chipsets were the machine vendor's responsibility... and the LT was in the Lombard in 1999, about a year before the final OS X rolled out of the gate), and the decision to cut off support of certain types to machines coming out the same year as OS X. Sure they are a computer company, but that doesn't mean the decision is always correct. On Oct 28, 2003, at 9:28 PM, David M. Ensteness wrote: On Oct 28, 2003, at 6:20 PM, Krevnik wrote: Nope, sorry... don't buy that. There is an ATIRagePro.kext and ATIRageProGA.plugin (2D acceleration) and the GA plug wasn't even activated for the Lombard until 10.2.4, you needed a hack before that. The RagePro.kext refers to a non-existant ATIRageProGL.bundle for OpenGL acceleration. There is no 3D acceleration for the Rage Pro chips. The 128 Pro is NOT the same as the Rage Pro, but newer and appeared in the Pismos. Not to be too rude but I don't care if you buy it, its the case. ATi's Rage II, RagePro, and RageProLT were not accelerated prior to 10.1.5 but were after. There is documentation of it, go look it up yourself if you care about the truth of the matter, you can find it at Apple's Knowledge Base, at XLR8yourmac.com and many other sites that covered the issue. This debate boarders on stupid. A lot of people are arguing a lot of misinformation and opinion mixed with fact on the issue of this class action suit. The fact is people's expectation [those that brought on the suit and agree with it] was different from the reality of features and performance. I do not feel Apple is at fault in this matter but when one's expectation is different from reality it is very likely that blame gets assigned and people assigned it to Apple. While I happen to believe that this blame is based on an inaccurate expectation and is misplaced, I don't know that it matters much in the scheme of things. As with other issues, if people want to blame, they will justify it, sometimes only to themselves, sometimes to the masses, and sometimes to the legal system. Another fact that is neglected. Apple did not write the ATi drivers for the ATi chipsets. ATi did, this is true of Classic Mac OS and Mac OS X. At the time, before the 10.1.5 update was released, people complained it was Apple not choosing to support it to force them to go buy new Macs. This argument gets brought up a lot, its generally false although I am sure there are cases when it is true. Now, regarding video support. It is my understanding from a lot of reading I have done that the RagePro and RageII chipsets never did OpenGL under Mac OS 8 or 9, they did RAVE. At the time RAVE and GLIDE [from 3dfx] were competing and OpenGL was starting to enter the fray. Since none of us know the exact facts, think about this once and see if its not reasonable. Apple sells a Mac, it has a chipset from a third party in it. The third party includes driver support. Apple puts out new system software, the third party doesn't update their driver. Its the third party's fault right? So according to that we should blame ATi. However, what if the chipset can't do the stuff we want it to do, ie, what if it can not support OpenGL acceleration. Whose fault is it then? Apple for embracing OpenGL in OS X? ATi for not making a fully compliant OpenGL graphics chipset? Sadly, somethings are not anyone's fault, they just are, and they are often
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On Wed, 2003-10-29 at 00:11, Edward Jackson wrote: I think that all of this stems directly from the Mac culture itself. The Mac is a drastically less used, more expensive, and a slower computer (sorry guysbenchmarks vs reality). Despite those huge As a relative newcomer to the mac side, I have not noticed much difference wrt to speed. In fact, I had a brand new top-of-the-line Thinkpad next to one of the top-of-the-line Macs and the Mac blew it right out of the water. Websites, etc. loaded/worked much faster. marketing nightmare's many of us in the culture (as defined when you put down your hard earned $$ on a Mac) expect more than our constantly complaining Window's compadre. The facts are hard...that those who buy Mac's fit one of three patternsthey make their living on a Mac, they want to make a living on a Mac, or they love the obviously superior OS. For the first group, an upgrade is simply a necessity of I would add just a bit of a twist on the these categories ... the fourth being that we cannot put up with living in Bill Gate's computing Hell! I converted my entire family over to iBooks/Powerbooks due to support issues around the WinPieceofSh*t du jour. Now I do not get support questions while I am half way around the world on business. business. For the second group, an upgrade is usually at a student discount brought to you by student loans. For the third group, an upgrade (or rather 4 in 4 years) is almost as great of a financial strain as the damn computer itself. Simply putMac user's spend a great deal of time talking about their Mac. Bragging even. And then I would not paint myself as one of these. Simply put, the machine works, and works very well. Also, the iPod have 2 of these and other digital hub stuff just works!! The real benefits of the Mac is that the computer does not get in the way of being productive. Period! they find that the $3000 they spent three years ago is now completely obsolete (even an old Dell runs WinDoze XP with minor hardware upgrades)...and well, that hurts. Blame whomever you like, the pain is I run Linux and other OSs, and there really is no comparisons here. Win2K/WinXP, in my IMNSHO, ran much slower with MAJOR hardware upgrades. Linux, however, is pretty good on older hardware. still there..in my years as a #3 I often questioned just what the hell I was doing and why. By the time I am able to afford a new powerbook they'll have G6's (if Moto and IBM ever kick it into gear). My Wallstreet, while still functional is OSX Jag, doesn't have Panthercan't have Panther. Am I complaining? At first I did. At every chance. Now I just grin and bear itand the keyboard of the Wallstreet will get dusty from neglect and the three year old Dell with the inferior OS will be used more and more. I feel a tad neglected, rejected even.but it's all about money kidsApple can't spend the next two years updating their OS to run on every computer made in the last 4 yearsthat's Microsoft's job.and while producing an inferior OS, they still have 95% of the market. Apple is blessed. If they showed their customers 1/4 of the dedication their customer's showed them.they might have a chance in this market. I would have to agree here. Apple could easily double their market share if they actually spent a bit more time understanding how to treat their customers ever had to return/fix a machine?. I will continue to use my PB17 and will most likely be purchasing a PB12 and another iBook within the next year. Why, because they fit me and my family's computing needs. -Bob- -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
The OpenGL/RAVE argument is moot because they are APIs, you can slap any API onto any chipset you like with interoperability. As shown by the support for Rage, RAVE, and OpenGL acceleration under OS 9 (Glide was 3dfx's answer to RAVE, before a standard 3D API came out, OpenGL). Heck, ATi could have supported Glide, but why support the competition? Really? So I can just slap Win32 APIs on top of a PowerPC 601 and it will run? That is pretty sweet, I guess Mac OS X on Intel should be easy too since I just have to slap the application stack APIs on top another hardware architecture. I personally am not expecting phenomenal performance from an LT chipset... but leaving a 3D chipset disabled for *3* years is borderline arrogant. Especially when the laptop in question was at about one year of age when OS X shipped. Really, Apple came to your house and disabled it? I could have sworn that it worked in other versions of Mac OS, maybe if it wasn't Apple should be all things to all people running through your mind instead of the reality that they can't do *everything* this wouldn't be such an issue. Mac OS X shipped in 2001 or late 2000. So the Lombard was about 1-2 years old yes. but they didn't leave it disabled for 3 years, 10.1.5 came out in 2001. Sure it is a little late now to really do anything because now the chipset IS ancient. People complained at the time it was released that it was ancient. Subjectiveness is well ... subjective. The chipset was a couple years old, however, above you make it seem that 3 years is a life time to wait but so short that Apple should obviously be supporting more. Which way you want it? However, I don't agree with Apple's position to kill support for a chipset that they pushed as being one of the best laptop chipsets a year later. My complaints come from the facts at hand (it IS possible to do OpenGL on it, ATi showed that... and ATi has had the stance for years that laptop chipsets were the machine vendor's responsibility... Not accurate from what I have read, want to point me at something that says that Apple is solely responsible for providing driver support? Oh and this contradicts your statement that Apple can't create PowerBook LT drivers because no ATi drivers exist. Pick an angle and stick with it would you please? and the LT was in the Lombard in 1999, about a year before the final OS X rolled out of the gate), and the decision to cut off support of certain types to machines coming out the same year as OS X. Yeah, I know what you mean, they should support everything. I mean why doesn't my Newton run Mac OS X Its just a set of APIs, they could slap it on there right? I think Apple is trying to force me to replace my Newton with a PowerBook G4 12 don't you? Fact is they have to draw a line somewhere, they have limited resources, everyone does, big company or not. Some people are mad that their 8600s don't run OS X natively. Others think their PowerBook 1400s should run it or their 7100s. Where do you draw the line, the farther back you draw it the my random requests and demands you get. So you don't decide that way, you decide based on technical practicality. Can the chipset do what it needs to do *well enough* that it justifies the expense. Apple decided no. Sure they are a computer company, but that doesn't mean the decision is always correct. Uhm I have no preconception that making computers makes a company right. MS and Dell and HP/Compaq make a lot of crap. Apple has made a large share of mistakes too. Every used iCal? Until the current version it was more than a little slow and buggy. How about how old iPods can't get their software updated, now if you want to complain about Apple, that is a better topic. There isn't any technical reason that on the fly playlists couldn't be added to older iPods. So anyways, yeah, Apple has their mistakes, I do not assume they are right. David -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
You would catch more fish if you did your trolling in a boat. David On Oct 29, 2003, at 1:11 AM, Edward Jackson wrote: I think that all of this stems directly from the Mac culture itself. The Mac is a drastically less used, more expensive, and a slower computer (sorry guysbenchmarks vs reality). Despite those huge marketing nightmare's many of us in the culture (as defined when you put down your hard earned $$ on a Mac) expect more than our constantly complaining Window's compadre. The facts are hard...that those who buy Mac's fit one of three patternsthey make their living on a Mac, they want to make a living on a Mac, or they love the obviously superior OS. For the first group, an upgrade is simply a necessity of business. For the second group, an upgrade is usually at a student discount brought to you by student loans. For the third group, an upgrade (or rather 4 in 4 years) is almost as great of a financial strain as the damn computer itself. Simply putMac user's spend a great deal of time talking about their Mac. Bragging even. And then they find that the $3000 they spent three years ago is now completely obsolete (even an old Dell runs WinDoze XP with minor hardware upgrades)...and well, that hurts. Blame whomever you like, the pain is still there..in my years as a #3 I often questioned just what the hell I was doing and why. By the time I am able to afford a new powerbook they'll have G6's (if Moto and IBM ever kick it into gear). My Wallstreet, while still functional is OSX Jag, doesn't have Panthercan't have Panther. Am I complaining? At first I did. At every chance. Now I just grin and bear itand the keyboard of the Wallstreet will get dusty from neglect and the three year old Dell with the inferior OS will be used more and more. I feel a tad neglected, rejected even.but it's all about money kidsApple can't spend the next two years updating their OS to run on every computer made in the last 4 yearsthat's Microsoft's job.and while producing an inferior OS, they still have 95% of the market. Apple is blessed. If they showed their customers 1/4 of the dedication their customer's showed them.they might have a chance in this market. Mac forevereven if it's just a museum piece, ed j -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: G-Books [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:05:31 -0700 To: G-Books [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement I will continue to use my PB17 and will most likely be purchasing a PB12 and another iBook within the next year. Why, because they fit me and my family's computing needs. Bob, I find it refreshing to get your point of view on that, specially that you converted not a long time ago. That puts some of the stuff we tend to forget back into perspective... -Laurent. -- === Laurent DaudelinDeveloper, Multifamily, ESO, Fannie Mae mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC, USA * Usual disclaimers apply * -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
David M. Ensteness wrote: On Oct 29, 2003, at 10:05 AM, ba wrote: I would have to agree here. Apple could easily double their market share if they actually spent a bit more time understanding how to treat their customers ever had to return/fix a machine?. YES!!! Called Apple last Wednesday10/22 about Pismo 400 problems..The NEXT day (10/23) brought a box via Airborne and I sent it to Houston TX on Monday, 10/27 (4pm) because I was in Boston thru10/26 and got it back TODAY (10/29) at 2:45PM. They replaced the Trackpad, Battery, I/O Logic Board, MPU 400MHZ Board, Power Supply and Lithium Battery. Also earlier this year I had the Mat. DVD drive replaced because it died...Apple replaced it with an LG drive that has worked perfectly since then..ALL at no cost..Thank God for AppleCare Uhm yes I have actually. I had to send in my Pismo twice. Took 3 days to get it back all fixed, no questions asked. Friend of mine has a 30GB iPod he started having issues with, syncing didn't work and some other stuff. Called, they sent him a box and he sent it off. Another friend of mine just had his battery replaced in his iBook, had to send it in [pain] but he sent it in on a Friday and he had it on Monday morning at 10am. Apple has been rated really high by Consumer's Reports and by PC Mag for service and support for the past couple of years. I think there is a reason why. ABSOLUTELY!!! David A Loyal Apple Customer, Mike Kochkodin -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On Wednesday, October 29, 2003, at 01:25 PM, Hamlin Krewson wrote: My feeling is that what you are asking is like hoping that Ford will design a 2004 Mustang with all new engine, amenities and traction but can also use 1966 Mustang wheels and tires because you already bought them and they are just sitting in your garage doing nothing. It doesn't work. Why? Well, unless Ford is using a smaller rim size and a smaller wheel-well on the new mustangs, the old wheels will fit just fine. If they don't fit this year, wait a few they probably will again. Each car company has a tendency to use a specific layout of posts for attaching lug nuts. I seriously doubt that Ford has changed theirs. For that matter there are only a few variances on the placement/number of posts within the industry. This hasn't changed in decades. So long as the tires are in good shape (doubtful if they're the originals), they can still be used. Now, automotive filters (of any type), that's a different story. These are changed regularly based on the shape and size of the engine compartment and the engine being used. Actually, this happened in the mid 1980's. Ford released the Mustang SVO with wheels that were not compatible with other Mustangs, even ones made the same year. And everyone was pissed. -Hal -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
I have been trying to follow this thread but have grown a bit tired due to the different time zones and therefore jumbled posts. All I'd like to add is that it's amazing how people jump on Apple considdering the utter CRAP that Micro$oft has produced and to this day still gets away with. Laurence (No, I'm not some sheltered Mac user, I have about 6 PCs) _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement [STOP!]
Sorry Ma'am... I saw this e-mail too late. Craig W. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
In a message dated 10/29/2003 3:46:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Uhm yes I have actually. I had to send in my Pismo twice. Took 3 days to get it back all fixed, no questions asked. (WHY oh WHY am I doing this...?) Oh yeah... I'm bored... This may sound CRAZEE(!), but any merchandise that I would have to send in TWICE to get fixed (unless I did something to cause the problem) would worry me... People, let there be no doubt that Apple is #1 Supremo; but I think it is dangerous to follow ANY entity blindly. Apple is not prefect; far from it, actually (remember the Powerbook 5300, Powerbook 2400c, PowerMac 52xx...?). But then again, who is perfect out there ?!? All I am saying is that lawsuits such as the one this thread was originally concentrating on (A Long, Long Time Ago, In An E-mail Far, Far Away...) are NECESSARY to ensure that companies don't start throwing useless, worthless sh*t our way without any consequences. It is NOT important what each individual plaintiff gets; what IS IMPORTANT is the fact that the company gets taught a valuable lesson: -that it is more cost effective to spend the extra time and money to get something RIGHT (and label it RIGHT as far as what it can and cannot do) rather than throw it out there to the comsumer and let us test-drive it for them... ALSO(!) and I think THIS POINT cannot be overlooked... ...It is NOT important what each individual plaintiff gets; what IS IMPORTANT is the MONEY THE LAWYERS RECEIVE! HA, HA, HA! (Evil laugh, as I smoke my cigar and roll in my pile o' Money on my office floor!!!) My $2.3 million cents! Craig W. - A disgusting Plaintiff Lawyer - -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Not to continue this thread, but how many times does one take a car into work in the course of ownership ... more than 2 times. They fixed it each time it was an example of service which was in question. That will be my last post on this issue. David On Oct 29, 2003, at 4:49 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 10/29/2003 3:46:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Uhm yes I have actually. I had to send in my Pismo twice. Took 3 days to get it back all fixed, no questions asked. (WHY oh WHY am I doing this...?) Oh yeah... I'm bored... This may sound CRAZEE(!), but any merchandise that I would have to send in TWICE to get fixed (unless I did something to cause the problem) would worry me... People, let there be no doubt that Apple is #1 Supremo; but I think it is dangerous to follow ANY entity blindly. Apple is not prefect; far from it, actually (remember the Powerbook 5300, Powerbook 2400c, PowerMac 52xx...?). But then again, who is perfect out there ?!? All I am saying is that lawsuits such as the one this thread was originally concentrating on (A Long, Long Time Ago, In An E-mail Far, Far Away...) are NECESSARY to ensure that companies don't start throwing useless, worthless sh*t our way without any consequences. It is NOT important what each individual plaintiff gets; what IS IMPORTANT is the fact that the company gets taught a valuable lesson: -that it is more cost effective to spend the extra time and money to get something RIGHT (and label it RIGHT as far as what it can and cannot do) rather than throw it out there to the comsumer and let us test-drive it for them... ALSO(!) and I think THIS POINT cannot be overlooked... ...It is NOT important what each individual plaintiff gets; what IS IMPORTANT is the MONEY THE LAWYERS RECEIVE! HA, HA, HA! (Evil laugh, as I smoke my cigar and roll in my pile o' Money on my office floor!!!) My $2.3 million cents! Craig W. - A disgusting Plaintiff Lawyer - -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On 10/29/03 2:11 AM, Edward Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Spew into the Cybertrough: I think that all of this stems directly from the Mac culture itself. Simply putMac user's spend a great deal of time talking about their Mac. Bragging even. And then they find that the $3000 they spent three years ago is now completely obsolete (even an old Dell runs WinDoze XP with minor hardware upgrades) Oh Geez. I am a professional Hardware Technician (Apple and PC certified). Do not *even* bring up Dell. They are one of the crappiest manufacturers of relatively proprietary Winbloze crap on the planet and I cringe at the image of their hardware in my head right now. Gateway and HP are close behind. -- Kyle H. Hansen It's Always darkest... right before it gets totally black. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Silly points re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Just a couple of small, silly points about this big kafuffle that has clogged my mailbox all day long. (Don't you people have jobs?) First of all, John Acuff wrote: What will it be next version? Native G4 machines only? That would be nice. Even with only two generations of chips on the market until recently, hardware requirements for software have been a joke over the past year. Now that the G5 is here, and given that it seems to fit in as well with G4 benchmarks as the Pentium 4 did with the standards for previous generations of Intel chips, I'd be happy to see some reasonably accurate information about what kind of hardware is actually required to run stuff short of plunking down my money and crossing my fingers. Honestly, like Kyle said, unless you *have* to be running the latest version of everything (ie. you run a printing business or something, in which case hardware and software upgrades are presumably built into your budget forecasts), what's wrong with sticking to software and an OS that are appropriate to the hardware that you're using, and which you *know* work up to a certain standard? Meanwhile, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't you dare call my SE/30 a museum piece - it has a vastly important job - delivering and receiving email for a small non-profit organization. How many 1990 PCs do you know of that are still running without having visited the computer doctor? The Epson Apex (12MHz 286) that I bought in August 1990 is still going strong, and it's only been opened up to have additional hardware (sound card, 3.5 floppy drive, modem, ATI Mach8 graphics card with an earth-shattering-at-the-time 1MB of video RAM) installed over the years. As a point of curiosity, it ran MS-DOS 3.3 when I got it, briefly had 5.0 installed, and continues with 6.22 to this day; none of the silly graphical amendments to MS-DOS are active, and while I've tried to make it run at a worthwhile speed, I've given up on the idea of ever running any version of Windows 3.x on it. (Once the term graphics accelerator became even remotely common on the hardware market, regular obsolescence became a fact of life.) I haven't had a chance to check it out in almost two years, but I'd assume that the IBM XT that I inherited from a neighbour about a year later is probably still capable of running Lotus 1-2-3 the same as it always has. Right now, though, it's keeping speakers off the ground in a warehouse, a task that it will presumably be able to handle for years and years to come. -me, bemused -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Quick summary: If you sign an affidavit that you bought OS X for that machine, did not use it regularly on that machine due to support issues, and promise to never run OS X on your machine again, you can send back your CDs and get the purchase price of your OS X purchase back. Otherwise, you are entitled to a $25 credit at the Apple store as long as you sign a sheet of paper stating that you could not do certain things under OS X on your machine. Steve Does anybody know anything about this class action lawsuit against Apple? I'm not too good at legalese, so I'm hoping someone familiar with the case can break it down for me. Apparently anyone owning a G3 PowerBook (Kanga through Lombard, I think) is eligible to participate. Which is why I'm surprised I haven't seen it mentioned on this board yet. Did I miss something? http://appleosx.rosenthalco.com/notice.html -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com --- -- Steve Fuller [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Quick summary: If you sign an affidavit that you bought OS X for that machine, did not use it regularly on that machine due to support issues, and promise to never run OS X on your machine again, you can send back your CDs and get the purchase price of your OS X purchase back. Otherwise, you are entitled to a $25 credit at the Apple store as long as you sign a sheet of paper stating that you could not do certain things under OS X on your machine. Steve Hi I think that if you read it through you will need to prove that you purchased a NEW powerbook G3 series (Kanga will not be in there) and also a copy of X between the dates they give and also prove the part that you can not use. Then you may be entitled to the refund. Vicki -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
I received the full settlement report from the lawyers. As a mac supporter, I threw the hole thing in the trash. Class action suits benefit the law offices that file more than the actually participants since they get there cut from the over-all settlement amount, or their high fees are paid on top of the settlement. These law offices regularly seek ways to design a class action and then lobby for participants. There are some legitimate suits filed, but most of the ones I come across are questionable if there was actually any wrong doing by the corporation they are seeking damages from. In many cases, it is easier and cheaper for the company to settle instead of fight the suit. I did not use OSX regularly on my Wallstreet, but purchased it with the desire to trial it and learn it at my own pace, using OS9 for actual work. I will not add to Apple's cost for this one, since, in the end, we all pay for it in higher costs to the company. Wayne Schneck Marketing Manager FME -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
I have to agree. In the end, class action suits only hurt both the company and the end user. Received information on another one against Apple many years ago. Forget what it was, but the originator got around $1000 or so, lawyers got millions, and I (along with several thousand others) was offered a whole $1.50. The only winners in these suits are the lawyers, always. Hamlin I received the full settlement report from the lawyers. As a mac supporter, I threw the hole thing in the trash. Class action suits benefit the law offices that file more than the actually participants since they get there cut from the over-all settlement amount, or their high fees are paid on top of the settlement. These law offices regularly seek ways to design a class action and then lobby for participants. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
The first class-action suit I recall against Apple was the over the Performa series, which was advertised as PowerPC-upgradeable. Of course, the upgrade was to replace the logic board for about $1K. The class-action suit brought it down to the $600-$700 range. And who can forget the Blockbuster class-action suit? Coupons for $1 off a rental? The lawyers made millions in legal fees. Gary Hamlin Krewson wrote: I have to agree. In the end, class action suits only hurt both the company and the end user. Received information on another one against Apple many years ago. Forget what it was, but the originator got around $1000 or so, lawyers got millions, and I (along with several thousand others) was offered a whole $1.50. The only winners in these suits are the lawyers, always. Hamlin I received the full settlement report from the lawyers. As a mac supporter, I threw the hole thing in the trash. Class action suits benefit the law offices that file more than the actually participants since they get there cut from the over-all settlement amount, or their high fees are paid on top of the settlement. These law offices regularly seek ways to design a class action and then lobby for participants. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
In a message dated 10/28/03 4:30:37 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I will not add to Apple's cost for this one, since, in the end, we all pay for it in higher costs to the company. Wow... APPLE could not have said it better themselves. Craig W. (One of those lawyers you hatin' on!) -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Bingo, Ditto, 100% agreed.. IMHO, if you decide to jump on the lawsuit, please do the rest of us a favor and throw your Mac in the trash. This sort of rubbish should be deleted from existence, not recommended for the public. Tom In a message dated 10/28/03 4:30:37 PM, you wrote: I received the full settlement report from the lawyers. As a mac supporter, I threw the hole thing in the trash. Class action suits benefit the law offices that file more than the actually participants since they get there cut from the over-all settlement amount, or their high fees are paid on top of the settlement. These law offices regularly seek ways to design a class action and then lobby for participants. Wayne Schneck Marketing Manager FME -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Look, I really appreciate all the corporate ass kissing and lawyer bashing, but I just wanted to know what exactly is claimed in the lawsuit? That Apple didn't offer support for G3 users? Falsely advertised compatibility for computers that weren't and then didn't offer refunds to customers who complained? It sounds as though a significant number of people are asking for a refund on a product that didn't work with their machines. As much as I like Apple, I don't think they're infallible, and, as much as I distrust lawyers, they are around for a reason and on occasion have been known to do some good. On Tuesday, October 28, 2003, at 04:43 PM, Hamlin Krewson wrote: I have to agree. In the end, class action suits only hurt both the company and the end user. Received information on another one against Apple many years ago. Forget what it was, but the originator got around $1000 or so, lawyers got millions, and I (along with several thousand others) was offered a whole $1.50. The only winners in these suits are the lawyers, always. Hamlin I received the full settlement report from the lawyers. As a mac supporter, I threw the hole thing in the trash. Class action suits benefit the law offices that file more than the actually participants since they get there cut from the over-all settlement amount, or their high fees are paid on top of the settlement. These law offices regularly seek ways to design a class action and then lobby for participants. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com --- -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
I totally dissagree with this. THe issue was that SOME powerbooks didn't do EVERYTHING that OSX was supposed to provide. YES, one or two folks may legitimately have been put out by this issue. Do you REALLY think that it's worth $20-50 MILLION dollars in legal fees to have this go into a lawsuit?? I seriously doubt it. I have generally found that most large corp's (despite what your left-wing idiots in CA think) ARE interested in the little guy.. Guess what--it's generally the little guy who makes the profit for them, in the long run. It should come as no suprise to anyone that this suit was done in LA, California. Anybody wonder why California's budget is upside down, and every small business that can, has moved out of the state?? One proud-to-be-A**-kissing Mac user. Tom In a message dated 10/28/03 5:01:58 PM, you wrote: Look, I really appreciate all the corporate ass kissing and lawyer bashing, but I just wanted to know what exactly is claimed in the lawsuit? That Apple didn't offer support for G3 users? Falsely advertised compatibility for computers that weren't and then didn't offer refunds to customers who complained? It sounds as though a significant number of people are asking for a refund on a product that didn't work with their machines. As much as I like Apple, I don't think they're infallible, and, as much as I distrust lawyers, they are around for a reason and on occasion have been known to do some good. On Tuesday, October 28, 2003, at 04:43 PM, Hamlin Krewson wrote: I have to agree. In the end, class action suits only hurt both the company and the end user. Received information on another one against Apple many years ago. Forget what it was, but the originator got around $1000 or so, lawyers got millions, and I (along with several thousand others) was offered a whole $1.50. The only winners in these suits are the lawyers, always. Hamlin I received the full settlement report from the lawyers. As a mac supporter, I threw the hole thing in the trash. Class action suits benefit the law offices that file more than the actually participants since they get there cut from the over-all settlement amount, or their high fees are paid on top of the settlement. These law offices regularly seek ways to design a class action and then lobby for participants. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com --- -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com --- --- Headers Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd01.mail.aol.com (v97.8) with ESMTP id MAILINZD11-3b53f9ee748db; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:01:55 -0500 Received: from mail.maclaunch.com (mail.maclaunch.com [157.238.133.140]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v97.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINZD49-3b53f9ee748db; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:01:44 -0400 X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.1 List-Unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-ID: G-Books.mail.maclaunch.com List-Archive: http://mail.maclaunch.com:8100/Lists/G-Books/List.html Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: G-Books [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: G-Books [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: G-Books [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: list Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:01:39 -0500 Subject: Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: Jacob Saariaho
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
The lawsuit started off with the Beige G3 support and grew from there (IIRC). The basic premise is that when apple stated that the computers in question met the minimum requirements for OS X, and that they (Apple) would support the OS on those computers that they were somehow making a claim that the OS would fully support all hardware features. Problem is, Apple only ever claimed that OS X would run on the computers in question and not that it would work with all hardware features (ie. the AV cards in Beige G3 systems). I think they also run into problems where not everyone who purchased OS X were able to get it to install on the computers. A good number of these can be attributed to additions/modifications that the installer is not expecting (or designed to work with). I don't know how this affects the laptops (as I mentioned, it installed fine on my Lombard), but on the Beige G3 it meant that if you'd installed any internal SCSI device then the OS probably wouldn't install. Hamlin -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: G-Books [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:10:19 EST To: G-Books [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement I totally dissagree with this. THe issue was that SOME powerbooks didn't do EVERYTHING that OSX was supposed to provide. YES, one or two folks may legitimately have been put out by this issue. Do you REALLY think that it's worth $20-50 MILLION dollars in legal fees to have this go into a lawsuit?? I seriously doubt it. I have generally found that most large corp's (despite what your left-wing idiots in CA think) ARE interested in the little guy.. Guess what--it's generally the little guy who makes the profit for them, in the long run. It should come as no suprise to anyone that this suit was done in LA, California. Anybody wonder why California's budget is upside down, and every small business that can, has moved out of the state?? I did follow the thread at the beginning before it turned into a class action. I think the original intent was to force Apple to complete the ATI RageLT driver so that those users would benefit from video hardware acceleration. I did drop the ball when I moved to a Pismo, so I don't really what happened, but it looks like Apple didn't want to do it, hence it resulted in a class-action... Just my $0.02... -Laurent. -- === Laurent DaudelinDeveloper, Multifamily, ESO, Fannie Mae mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC, USA * Usual disclaimers apply * -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
I have generally found that most large corp's (despite what your left-wing idiots in CA think) ARE interested in the little guy. I find this entire statement confusing, because (a.) I've never heard anyone claim that large corporations really do have the little guys' best interest at heart, and (b.) I thought any company that could come up with a flower power iMac HAD to be run by left-wing idiots in California. Maybe I was mistaken. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
I did follow the thread at the beginning before it turned into a class action. I think the original intent was to force Apple to complete the ATI RageLT driver so that those users would benefit from video hardware acceleration. I did drop the ball when I moved to a Pismo, so I don't really what happened, but it looks like Apple didn't want to do it, hence it resulted in a class-action... IIRC, Apple did provide 2D Rage support in 10.2. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Wayne Schneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I received the full settlement report from the lawyers. As a mac supporter, I threw the hole thing in the trash. Class action suits benefit the law offices that file more than the actually participants since they get there cut from the over-all settlement amount, or their high fees are paid on top of the settlement. These law offices regularly seek ways to design a class action and then lobby for participants. There are some legitimate suits filed, but most of the ones I come across are questionable if there was actually any wrong doing by the corporation they are seeking damages from. In many cases, it is easier and cheaper for the company to settle instead of fight the suit. I did not use OSX regularly on my Wallstreet, but purchased it with the desire to trial it and learn it at my own pace, using OS9 for actual work. I will not add to Apple's cost for this one, since, in the end, we all pay for it in higher costs to the company. I believe all class action lawsuits have a procedure for affected parties to comment on the lawsuit (and the proposed attorney's fees). If you are asked to join a class action lawsuit (and if you're eligible to join), and if you believe the suit is frivolous or without merit (or the attorney's fees are too high) then you can submit a statement to that affect to the court. This is more effective than simply throwing it into the trash, because in most class action suits your silence will simply be interpreted as a failure to contact the (supposedly) injured party. Of course, it requires more effort as well; but if more people took this route then I think more class action suits would be fought and, ultimately, dismissed. -Jeff[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can't brew a premium lager with a kool-aid mentality. --Harold Green in _The_Red_Green_Show_ -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Right, I was an iBook SE 2000 owner and was a bit miffed about no hardware acceleration for my video card when X came out. My iBook was really almost unusable in X with the slow video redraws. I too bought a Pismo that I upgraded with the G3 900 upgrade and a gig of RAM so I am not complaining now, but the iBook was never really meant to be upgraded. Putting a 60GB hard drive in the Pismo took 10 minutes...I have seen pictures of swapping a drive in an iBook and it was not pretty...you've got to take a few hundred pieces apart. RAM maxes out low due to a soldered main chip so the issue really is that Apple purposely builds in obsolescence into some of their computers...the lower end, and develop their OS to work best with the newest hardware, so we'll buy new machines. They're bread and butter is hardware so if we could all still use our 98-2000 machines with Panther (aside from my Pismo which does run Panther quite nicely, but cost a pretty penny to upgrade), they're going to continue to innovate for the new hardware. Right or wrong it makes good business sense. Should they be responsible for making claims that don't quite pan out? Maybe...the lawyers are looking to make the real money, while some consumers feel that they deserve something based on the principle that they've been misled. I had my yo-yo power adapter spark, melt the power cable and burn a bit recently and called Apple. They sent me a new one right out, yet there is even now a law firm looking for people to complain on just this issue so they can file a class action. Since Apple took care of me, fair is fair and nobody was hurt, but if this is as common as the lawyers want you to believe and there is a safety hazard, that is a different story altogether. But that's a whole different can of worms there isn't it. I did follow the thread at the beginning before it turned into a class action. I think the original intent was to force Apple to complete the ATI RageLT driver so that those users would benefit from video hardware acceleration. I did drop the ball when I moved to a Pismo, so I don't really what happened, but it looks like Apple didn't want to do it, hence it resulted in a class-action... Just my $0.02... -Laurent. -- === Laurent DaudelinDeveloper, Multifamily, ESO, Fannie Mae mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC, USA -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
It was in 10.1.5 that they did it. David On Oct 28, 2003, at 4:42 PM, Hamlin Krewson wrote: I did follow the thread at the beginning before it turned into a class action. I think the original intent was to force Apple to complete the ATI RageLT driver so that those users would benefit from video hardware acceleration. I did drop the ball when I moved to a Pismo, so I don't really what happened, but it looks like Apple didn't want to do it, hence it resulted in a class-action... IIRC, Apple did provide 2D Rage support in 10.2. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Nope, sorry... don't buy that. There is an ATIRagePro.kext and ATIRageProGA.plugin (2D acceleration) and the GA plug wasn't even activated for the Lombard until 10.2.4, you needed a hack before that. The RagePro.kext refers to a non-existant ATIRageProGL.bundle for OpenGL acceleration. There is no 3D acceleration for the Rage Pro chips. The 128 Pro is NOT the same as the Rage Pro, but newer and appeared in the Pismos. On Oct 28, 2003, at 3:59 PM, David M. Ensteness wrote: Excuse me I just sent an email clarifying and I mistyped. Apple did provide Rage II and RagePro support it was in version 10.1.5 and it included hardware 3D acceleration. David On Oct 28, 2003, at 5:31 PM, Krevnik wrote: IIRC, Apple did provide 2D Rage support in 10.2. Yeah, but the power of the Rage chip was in 3D, not 2D... and we have yet to see 3D support from Apple, even on a basic level. I could care less about DVD support since there are options, but I want basic OpenGL support! -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com --- -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
It's a moot point in any case, since Apple never promised graphics acceleration (of any sort) on these older supported systems (nor was it ever planned). It got added as a compromise (on Apple's behalf) as a way of showing that they were willing to listen to user requests. Read the original release for 10.0, it says only that the OS will run on any computer that was sold with a G3 or G4. Hamlin Nope, sorry... don't buy that. There is an ATIRagePro.kext and ATIRageProGA.plugin (2D acceleration) and the GA plug wasn't even activated for the Lombard until 10.2.4, you needed a hack before that. The RagePro.kext refers to a non-existant ATIRageProGL.bundle for OpenGL acceleration. There is no 3D acceleration for the Rage Pro chips. The 128 Pro is NOT the same as the Rage Pro, but newer and appeared in the Pismos. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On Oct 28, 2003, at 5:01 PM, Hamlin Krewson wrote: It's a moot point in any case, since Apple never promised graphics acceleration (of any sort) on these older supported systems (nor was it ever planned). It got added as a compromise (on Apple's behalf) as a way of showing that they were willing to listen to user requests. Read the original release for 10.0, it says only that the OS will run on any computer that was sold with a G3 or G4. Hamlin At the same time, they never said that features that were available before would suddenly NEVER be supported again. Graphics chipset support has come to be a very core part of basic OS functionality, and Apple realized this when they decided to do the drivers themselves. Thus the responsibility for core OS functionality lies on them, not us. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On 10/28/03 11:03 PM, Krevnik [EMAIL PROTECTED] Spew into the Cybertrough: At the same time, they never said that features that were available before would suddenly NEVER be supported again. Graphics chipset support has come to be a very core part of basic OS functionality, and Apple realized this when they decided to do the drivers themselves. Thus the responsibility for core OS functionality lies on them, not us. This argument (and lawsuit) makes as much sense as people suing Apple because OS 9.2 will not run on their Quadra 700. Apple may have worded it wrong (as far as supported machines goes) when the first OS X release was in the works, but Geez. Move on. You have 2 choices: 1. Shut your mouths and keep using OS 8 or 9 and don't bother with OS X. 2. Try to make OS X run on hardware that is barely capable of it but do so at your own risk and have fun with your experimentation. Oh yeah...for those of you/us still running OS 9.It's been considered a dead OS for a couple of years now. Get with the times or QYB. Apple should not waste any more time or money un-developing their software so that it will run on machines that are years old. 18 months is a LIFETIME in the world of computing. If you can't handle that fact then you need a reality check. You shouldn't be biting the hand that feeds you (aka suing apple). All that I sgoing to do is hurt us all in the long run. And btw, I have an SE-30 happily running OS 7.1 32-bit clean. It was never meant to run 32-bit clean and I did it all on my own, but I didn't sue my favorite computer company because of the fact that it wouldn't run 32-bit clean. I fiddled with it and made it work. I use it as is, and am prepared to do so for some time. It does what I want it to do and that is good enough for me. -- Kyle H. Hansen It's Always darkest... right before it gets totally black. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On Tue, Oct 28, 2003 at 03:18:57PM -0600, Hamlin Krewson wrote: : : On Tuesday, October 28, 2003, at 03:00 PM, Jacob Saariaho wrote: : : Does anybody know anything about this class action lawsuit against : Apple? I'm not too good at legalese, so I'm hoping someone familiar : with the case can break it down for me. Apparently anyone owning a G3 : PowerBook (Kanga through Lombard, I think) is eligible to participate. : Which is why I'm surprised I haven't seen it mentioned on this board : yet. Did I miss something? : : Actually, it covers the Wallstreet, PDQ and Lombard. Doesn't cover the : Kanga. I'm rather surprised it covers the Lombard. I love OS X on my : Lombard, works great. Only thing I've noticed it not work with is the : s-video port. I imagine it works with the vga port, but I'm not sure. It covers Lombard because OS X didn't fully support the hardware. So no support for the S-video port, no DVD playback regardless of whether it worked in OS 9 or not, no hardware graphics acceleration in the video drivers, and other things. Class action lawsuits sometimes suck, but sometimes it's the only way to reign in company responsibility and make them do what they say. -- Eugene Lee eugene at anime dot net -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On Oct 28, 2003, at 6:20 PM, Krevnik wrote: Nope, sorry... don't buy that. There is an ATIRagePro.kext and ATIRageProGA.plugin (2D acceleration) and the GA plug wasn't even activated for the Lombard until 10.2.4, you needed a hack before that. The RagePro.kext refers to a non-existant ATIRageProGL.bundle for OpenGL acceleration. There is no 3D acceleration for the Rage Pro chips. The 128 Pro is NOT the same as the Rage Pro, but newer and appeared in the Pismos. Not to be too rude but I don't care if you buy it, its the case. ATi's Rage II, RagePro, and RageProLT were not accelerated prior to 10.1.5 but were after. There is documentation of it, go look it up yourself if you care about the truth of the matter, you can find it at Apple's Knowledge Base, at XLR8yourmac.com and many other sites that covered the issue. This debate boarders on stupid. A lot of people are arguing a lot of misinformation and opinion mixed with fact on the issue of this class action suit. The fact is people's expectation [those that brought on the suit and agree with it] was different from the reality of features and performance. I do not feel Apple is at fault in this matter but when one's expectation is different from reality it is very likely that blame gets assigned and people assigned it to Apple. While I happen to believe that this blame is based on an inaccurate expectation and is misplaced, I don't know that it matters much in the scheme of things. As with other issues, if people want to blame, they will justify it, sometimes only to themselves, sometimes to the masses, and sometimes to the legal system. Another fact that is neglected. Apple did not write the ATi drivers for the ATi chipsets. ATi did, this is true of Classic Mac OS and Mac OS X. At the time, before the 10.1.5 update was released, people complained it was Apple not choosing to support it to force them to go buy new Macs. This argument gets brought up a lot, its generally false although I am sure there are cases when it is true. Now, regarding video support. It is my understanding from a lot of reading I have done that the RagePro and RageII chipsets never did OpenGL under Mac OS 8 or 9, they did RAVE. At the time RAVE and GLIDE [from 3dfx] were competing and OpenGL was starting to enter the fray. Since none of us know the exact facts, think about this once and see if its not reasonable. Apple sells a Mac, it has a chipset from a third party in it. The third party includes driver support. Apple puts out new system software, the third party doesn't update their driver. Its the third party's fault right? So according to that we should blame ATi. However, what if the chipset can't do the stuff we want it to do, ie, what if it can not support OpenGL acceleration. Whose fault is it then? Apple for embracing OpenGL in OS X? ATi for not making a fully compliant OpenGL graphics chipset? Sadly, somethings are not anyone's fault, they just are, and they are often things we don't like. Is what I just proposed true? We don't know. However, its just as likely true as the complaints are so it deserves equal consideration. David -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
On Tue, Oct 28, 2003 at 05:59:10PM -0600, David M. Ensteness wrote: : : Excuse me I just sent an email clarifying and I mistyped. : : Apple did provide Rage II and RagePro support it was in version 10.1.5 : and it included hardware 3D acceleration. This is false, at least when it applies to the PowerBooks in question. -- Eugene Lee eugene at anime dot net -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Thank you for your common sense Kyle. It was nice to read that someone saw this in the same light I did. David This argument (and lawsuit) makes as much sense as people suing Apple because OS 9.2 will not run on their Quadra 700. Apple may have worded it wrong (as far as supported machines goes) when the first OS X release was in the works, but Geez. Move on. You have 2 choices: 1. Shut your mouths and keep using OS 8 or 9 and don't bother with OS X. 2. Try to make OS X run on hardware that is barely capable of it but do so at your own risk and have fun with your experimentation. Oh yeah...for those of you/us still running OS 9.It's been considered a dead OS for a couple of years now. Get with the times or QYB. Apple should not waste any more time or money un-developing their software so that it will run on machines that are years old. 18 months is a LIFETIME in the world of computing. If you can't handle that fact then you need a reality check. You shouldn't be biting the hand that feeds you (aka suing apple). All that I sgoing to do is hurt us all in the long run. And btw, I have an SE-30 happily running OS 7.1 32-bit clean. It was never meant to run 32-bit clean and I did it all on my own, but I didn't sue my favorite computer company because of the fact that it wouldn't run 32-bit clean. I fiddled with it and made it work. I use it as is, and am prepared to do so for some time. It does what I want it to do and that is good enough for me. -- Kyle H. Hansen It's Always darkest... right before it gets totally black. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Apple never said it would support the stuff covered in the settlement so that part of your post is simply false. On top of that, claiming that I should get better performance out of my hardware [like the RagePro chipset] than it is capable of simply because I think it should be so - that is silly. When people complain that Mac OS X doesn't run Quake 3 well on their unupgraded Beige G3 or iMac 233 or Wallstreet I know just how they feel, my Beige G3 without a CD-RW doesn't burn CDs. And I think that is Apple's fault. Mac OS X supports CD burning, why doesn't it work on my Mac? Oh wait, I sound like a moron when I say that hmm, wanting video to do things it can't verses wanting a media drive to do things it can't Honestly, this is silly. David PS S-Video does work on Wallstreets [versions 1, 2], Lombards, and Pismos under Mac OS X. One guy posted and said it didn't work for him and asked for advice and you assumed that its one more thing Apple screwed us on. Get an accurate picture of what you are talking about. DVD is the same thing, Mac OS X supports software decoding only, I know, I know, under Mac OS X my Beige G3 should wash my car and do it all, maybe I should sue Apple. It covers Lombard because OS X didn't fully support the hardware. So no support for the S-video port, no DVD playback regardless of whether it worked in OS 9 or not, no hardware graphics acceleration in the video drivers, and other things. Class action lawsuits sometimes suck, but sometimes it's the only way to reign in company responsibility and make them do what they say. -- Eugene Lee eugene at anime dot net -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
Re: G3/Mac OS X Settlement
Not entirely, go look it up. And no, I am not going to look it up for you, I trust you can use Google just as well as I can. David On Oct 28, 2003, at 11:30 PM, Eugene Lee wrote: On Tue, Oct 28, 2003 at 05:59:10PM -0600, David M. Ensteness wrote: : : Excuse me I just sent an email clarifying and I mistyped. : : Apple did provide Rage II and RagePro support it was in version 10.1.5 : and it included hardware 3D acceleration. This is false, at least when it applies to the PowerBooks in question. -- Eugene Lee eugene at anime dot net -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- The Think Different Store http://www.ThinkDifferentStore.com ---
