RE: ASPizer

[Paul Ilechko]

> on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I
> was pretty
> > clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE
> > continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and have described the
> > commitment we expect to make.
>
> I question that commitment. No, I'm not going to just take your
> word for it.

That's fine, I have no problem responding to any reasonable questions.
>
> How can you commit to backing a project over the long term if your company
> can't get funding? When your company goes out of business, what interest
> will you have in developing this project over the long term?

We have a viable consulting company, and we make money. The product
development is something we have done when we see a need in the market, but
we have no reliance on income from it. We had hoped to sell ASPizer through
a partnership with a major software company, but that fell through. At this
point, we don't feel that we can afford to hire a software sales staff and
build a software company around it. As a result of this, we are interested
in building a market through open source. We can afford to maintain a
certain level of development on this product, and are willing to do so. I'm
not sure how you expect us to prove that, though.
>
> You need to realize that the 5 years that I have been around here, I have
> seen about 30-40 people just like you who come with some great
> project that
> they want to see survive beyond their company who want to give us
> the great
> pleasure of hosting for them so that they can maybe get some
> interest in it
> because no one was willing to buy it.
>
> We already have enough baggage around the Jakarta project. I think that
> adding any new projects is going to have to be carefully considered. The
> primary consideration is whether or not the project coming in has a
> developer and user community around it. The reason is because it will be
> these people who have to support the project long after the lead
> developers
> or the company that created it disappeared.
>
> The problem is that few people around here have been around for
> as long as I
> have so they have a very small understanding of the amount of crap that we
> have accumulated and gone through over the years. As a result, we have
> really closed our doors to new projects that have no community before they
> come here. Simply because we don't want to become a
> sourceforget.net (which
> is where I would have recommended you to go in the first place instead of
> pointing you at this list).

These points are well taken.


> How come you haven't put the source code out there under an OSS
> license yet
> so that we can look at it before we decide to begin to even consider it?

Sorry, but I'm pretty new to the whole open source approach. We can look
into other options and see what the best way to do this is. We're not
looking to dump something on anyone.

Paul.


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[PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Jon Stevens]

Here is my proposal for new project creation guidelines. I have not linked
it into the main site until I can get 3 +1 votes from the PMC and 0 -1 votes
from the PMC.



I will accept any patches against this document and/or direct commits from
PMC members.

:-)

-jon


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RE: ASPizer

[Tim Vernum]

From: Avi Cherry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>  Instead, he 
> questioned the motives of the developer offering their code, implying 
> that he was being selfish in wanting to have the Apache group take 
> the project in.  This was obviously not his intent,

It might have been obvious to you, but it wasn't obvious to me (and
 still isn't)

When I first read the original mail my reaction was "Someone with
a homeless project looking for an owner".

In fact Paul's most recent mail says
"As a result of this, we are interested in building a market
 through open source."

Which has an air of "we can't afford to do this ourselves so we're
hoping that we can utilise the Apache resources to get our product
of the ground".

There's nothing _wrong_ with that - my impression is that part of
Sun's motive for donating to Jakarta is to take advantage of the
resources/name of Apache to promote their technology.
It can be a win-win situation, but if no one here thinks the
project is worth being involved in, then there's no reason
for the PMC et al. to put time/resources into it.

> Jon, it wouldn't kill you to be polite. 

That I most certainly agree with.
Even a one line answer can be made more polite.
A dosage of "It appears to me..." or "I still don't see..."
can make most comments more palatable.

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Re: ASPizer

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/17/01 9:36 PM, "Tim Vernum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> When I first read the original mail my reaction was "Someone with
> a homeless project looking for an owner".

I must be tainted from having been around here so long. I see right through
his proposal.

> In fact Paul's most recent mail says
> "As a result of this, we are interested in building a market
> through open source."
> Which has an air of "we can't afford to do this ourselves so we're
> hoping that we can utilise the Apache resources to get our product
> of the ground".

Yes, that is what I saw right away.

Add on to the fact that he has zero OSS experience, a contribution from him
would not bring anything more than a code base and a lot of headaches for us
to bring him up to speed on how to run an OSS project. Jakarta is not a
dumping ground for code.

> There's nothing _wrong_ with that - my impression is that part of
> Sun's motive for donating to Jakarta is to take advantage of the
> resources/name of Apache to promote their technology.

Actually, it is a slightly different and much much more drawn out story with
Sun.

> It can be a win-win situation

For the most part, with Sun, it has been a win-win solution.

Several Jakarta developers (Costin/Craig/Pier are the first people that come
to my mind) have gone on to become Sun employees* and that makes me happy to
see them gainfully employed doing what they love to do. That said, Tomcat
3.0 wasn't a pretty code base at all and a lot of work has gone into
cleaning it up (as well as re-writing it from scratch).

* Costin recently left to go to another Apache-centric company...I'm sure
his resume of working with Jakarta didn't hurt him. :-)

> , but if no one here thinks the
> project is worth being involved in, then there's no reason
> for the PMC et al. to put time/resources into it.

I agree.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

[Endre Stølsvik]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gülcü wrote:

| At 22:21 17.10.2001 +0200, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
| >On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
| >
| >| > As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his
| >| > observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more.
| >| >   Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just whatever?
| >| > Be a bit more polite? Be, you know, nice to people? Especially to people
| >| > he even doesn't know..
| >|
| >| I rather relate to a person who is direct than someone who always
| >| appears to be nice.
| >
| >Jon's last post is just so very much better. Why not start with something
| >like that? It's still pretty direct, but in a much nicer, somewhat
| >diplomatic way.
| >
| >I just cannot understand how you can justify such extreme rudeness!?
|
| What extreme rudeness? Jon justifiably told Ranjit Mathew that Jakarta
| was not a dumping ground.

Well, I actually replied to the whole post, just quoting his first line,
which indeed was rude. The whole "attitude" in that mail was hostile and
ugly, "LOL"ing at the guys roduct.

| He also outlined that unlikely promises were not good enough. While
| one may criticize his direct style, Jakarta is not a popularity
| contest.

Right. I definately gotten that. I've always regarded you as a
"wellbalanced" person, seeing things in an objective way. How would you
like to get Jon all over you when you came here with your log4j?

|
| On the other hand, how do you qualify calling Jon an asshole? Unless you were
| referring to the usefulness of that body part in evacuating shit, your name calling
| constitutes extreme rudeness in itself.  Your subsequent comments were not
| much better either.

Well, I tried at least to a bit more explainatory there. But I guess my
own rudeness shined through anyways...

| The only one being rude in this forum is you. Ceki

Right. Jon's a nice, happy, soft, unrude dude. Me, on the other hand, is
really an asshole.

I feel that the Jakarta's acceptance policy is totally fuzzy, accepting
way to much if you ask me. But that doesn't justify rudeness towards
"newish" people on the list. I just don't care much more, but getting such
emails hurled against you when you for the first time is inquiring about
whether a open source living ground would like to accept your project is
not fair. Again.


Have lots of fun.



-- 
Mvh,
Endre




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Re: ASPizer

[Endre Stølsvik]

| Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
| now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
| number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost.

So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How incredibly smart
of you. Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!! Wow!
Incredible.

Were you (Jon) the front figure in that rejection too, hurling shit in
every direction, handing out your minus one before knowing what you were
talking about?

  It's just that Jakarta seems to be accepting and rejecting according to
what you - the *main* man - want..


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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Re: ASPizer

[Endre Stølsvik]

| The thing is that most people who do open source work do it for the
| fun/satisfaction of the thing, and engaging in debates with someone who
| truly speaks their mind and only compliments your work when its worth
| complimenting helps out with that fun/satisfaction thing.

I agree. That's not Jon you're talking about, though. His coding
performance and knowledge I'm not questioning at all. It's his non-coding
behaviour I am having a problem with.

I guess the bottom line is that coders have feelings too! Burried
somewhere deep inside them.. And Jon is kind of digging them up, and
squashing them..

That's the psychoanalyzis for today..

;)


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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RE: ASPizer

[Tim Vernum]

From: Endre Stølsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How 
> incredibly smart
> of you. 

Ah yes, the incredible science of predicting alternative
realities.

How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta?
Maybe the JBoss developers would have clashed with the
culture here, and stopped working.

It is possible that JBoss is doing well *because* it is
a separate project, outside of the ASF.

Regardless, I don't think people have lost out.
JBoss exists, people can use it.
What would have been gained by making it part of Jakarta?

> Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!!
> Wow! Incredible.

You can find synergies anywhere you want.
It doesn't mean that the project is a good fit at Jakarta.

>   It's just that Jakarta seems to be accepting and rejecting 
> according to
> what you - the *main* man - want..

I would hardly call Jon the "main" man.
But he is a member of the PMC which means he gets a vote.
And his vote carries no more weight than anyone else's.

You really seem to have some personal issues with Jon, how about
you take them offline.

We all know that Jon tends to be blunt and has a knack for offending
people. I believe that Jakarta would be better served if he toned it
down. But endless discussions on this list are not going to change
anything.

The Apache projects are meritocracies, people have influence based
on their contributions. Jon has contributed a lot and that is why
he is an ASF member.
This is how apache works - deal with it.

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Re: ASPizer

[Ranjit Mathew]

Dear All,

It's somewhat sad that this discussion has degenerated
into a flamefest, rife with personal attacks and orificial
metaphors.

It's sadder still, Jon, that you quote Paul almost
verbatim in your document "New Project Proposals"
(http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html) and
put several not-so-obvious-to-a-newbie references 
to this thread into the document.

Anyway, let me first clarify that THBS is primarily
a consulting company and intends to remain so. Our
strengths have been in middleware technologies, 
especially with J2EE based AppServers. Do take a 
look at http://www.thbs.com/ for more information.

In several of our assignments, we face certain
recurring problems (as I'm sure most of you also 
do) that are best solved by developing solutions
that solve a class of these problems. These
"scratch-the-itch" solutions, mature over time
to the point where we feel they can be of use
to others. 

Take a look at:
http://www.thbs.com/ivalue/ivalue1.html 
for more information on some of these.

For example, a real-life WebApp needs much more
than what is offered by an AppServer: a general
WebApp needs to keep track of its users and their
profiles, ensure that only authorised users are
able to access its functions, keep track of its
usage so that it can charge users, etc.

Add to this the fact that as the site grows, you'd
probably want to add more servers for load-balancing
or failovers, introduce new rate-plans for different
kinds of customers - some might be willing to pay
more for a better QoS, modify your user profile 
schemata, add more WebApps to your site, be able easily
manage the whole setup through a single point, etc.

This is exactly the class of problems that ASPizer
set out to solve - at the time we started on this,
ASPs were the most visible and greatest beneficiaries
of such a solution. This was certainly the case
for our first customer HumBiz (http://www.humbiz.com/).

We see a trend within large enterprises of moving
their Intranet/MIS applications to the WebApp/J2EE
model, where this solution would be directly applicable.
Thus the name "ASPizer" is somewhat of a misnomer now.

If anyone would like to know how this can directly 
benefit WebApp developers, I can send the ASPizer
Programming Guide (48KB/ZIPped-HTML) to them. Or other
documentation for that matter.

Coming to the issues raised in Jon's document and
elsewhere on this thread, I must tell you that this
has been a closed-source project so far with no
external developer community to speak of. It is still
being actively developed and improved upon though, and
as Paul points out, will be for quite some time to
come. We sincerely feel that the J2EE developer community
will definitely benefit from such a solution.

The "itches" that bothered us in our assignments are
certainly those that are faced by most J2EE developers
and sooner or later there will appear appropriate "scratches" -
here or elsewhere. Why not use this as a starting point 
rather than starting from scratch? (Unintended pun!)

A case in point being "WebOBlocks" that we developed 
around 1.5 years ago for creating reusable WebApp 
components based on MVC - there are several 
approaches now, even in the OSS world, that are quite
similar to that - dare I say even within the Jakarta
project (Struts/Turbine[partly]/etc.).

No, that was not intended as a ":-P" - I just think
that we as developers should try to get rid of our
NIH afflictions and try to reuse and share as much
of our code as possible - only then can we get out
of the tar-pit that is WebApp development as it is
today.

Wasn't that the whole point of starting the Jakarta
project?

'nuff said.

Sincerely Yours,
Ranjit.

-- 
Ranjit MathewE-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Member (Technical Staff),Phone:  +91-80-209 75 11/12/13
Torry Harris Business Solutions, Fax:+91-80-226 84 42
Bangalore, INDIA.http://www.torryharris.com/

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Re: ASPizer

[Endre Stølsvik]

On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:

| on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|
| > Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond
| > sooner.
| >
| > A few comments:
| >
| > ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used
| > on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a product by THBS, with the
| > intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such
| > as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining
| > venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is
| > to continue in that direction.
|
| We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects.

Why are you such an _asshole_ on mailing lists, Jon??

I just cannot believe your emails. They are such shit shometimes, it is
just amazing!

Go Jon, Go Jon, Go Jon, Go JOOON!!!

YEAH!

Endre.

-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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Re: ASPizer

[Ceki Gulcu]

Endre,

Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a
dumping ground for .bomb projects. 

I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his
mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of
Jakarta. Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the
body. 

On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:

| on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|
| > Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond
| > sooner.
| >
| > A few comments:
| >
| > ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used
| > on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a pr oduct by THBS, with the
| > intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such
| > as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining
| > venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is
| > to continue in that direction.
|
| We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects.

Why are you such an _asshole_ on mailing lists, Jon??

I just cannot believe your emails. They are such shit shometimes, it is
just amazing!

Go Jon, Go Jon, Go Jon, Go JOOON!!!

YEAH!

Endre.

--
Mvh,
Endre

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Re: ASPizer

[Alex McLintock]

 --- Ceki Gulcu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 
> Endre,
> 
> Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
> he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a
> dumping ground for .bomb projects. 



Project X is written  because it is useful to Company Y.
Company Y attempts to market Project X because they think it is useful to others.
Company Y decides they wont get enough money for Project X
Company Y offers Project X to the Opensource community. 

What's wrong with that?

Now of course it is right to question whether Apache Software Developers will 
find it useful enough to maintain the software. But how is Company Y to know 
unless it offers the software?

Why should a piece of software be rejected by the opensource community just
because it isn't commercially viable?





PS Endre, There is no point in trying to get Jon to change his manners. Just ignore him
when he is rude and listen to him quite closely when he is talking about software
cause he is usually right.

Alex


=
Alex McLintock[EMAIL PROTECTED]Open Source Consultancy in London
OpenWeb Analysts Ltd, http://www.OWAL.co.uk/ 
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RE: ASPizer

[Paulo Gaspar]

> I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his
> mind. 

It is only a pity when he speaks his mind BEFORE making his mind.

Sometimes his remarks just have no grounds because he did not study
a subject before talking about it. And this seems to be the case.

OTOH, one sure can learn a lot from him... being persistent enough
jumping over the (many) crapy bits he dumps in the way.

> One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of
> Jakarta. Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the
> body.

I am not going to say:
 - Jon, all that crap you sometimes do does not matter because you 
   are an Apache cornerstone.

All I can say is:
 - Jon, respect for others and yourself ALWAYS matters even if you
   were THE BOSS at Apache.


Still, calling him (or anyone else) "ungracious parts of the body"
is just another form of disrespect.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gulcu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:42 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ASPizer
> 
> 
> 
> Endre,
> 
> Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
> he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a
> dumping ground for .bomb projects. 
> 
> I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his
> mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of
> Jakarta. Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the
> body. 
> 
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
> 
> | on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> |
> | > Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a 
> chance to respond
> | > sooner.
> | >
> | > A few comments:
> | >
> | > ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in 
> fact is being used
> | > on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a pr oduct 
> by THBS, with the
> | > intention that we would sell it. However, due to various 
> economic factors such
> | > as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties 
> in obtaining
> | > venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not 
> feasible for is
> | > to continue in that direction.
> |
> | We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects.
> 
> Why are you such an _asshole_ on mailing lists, Jon??
> 
> I just cannot believe your emails. They are such shit shometimes, it is
> just amazing!
> 
> Go Jon, Go Jon, Go Jon, Go JOOON!!!
> 
> YEAH!
> 
> Endre.
> 
> --
> Mvh,
> Endre
> 
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> 

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Re: ASPizer

[Endre Stølsvik]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:

|
| Endre,
|
| Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
| he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a
| dumping ground for .bomb projects.

Of course it's not a dumping ground.

This is about whether the Open Source Community at Apache would be
interested in a project. Starting the debate from Apache's side with such
crude, ugly, disrespectful remarks like Jon's coming up with is just not
fair. This company is "dumping" a whole lot of money too, I guess, coming
from the investment in the software. There might be something there, just
_might_ be something of interest.

Why not try to look at that before launching such shit at the person
that is, basically, just trying to be nice!

|
| I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his
| mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of
| Jakarta.

Cornerstone and cornerstone. Would Jakarta crumble and die away if Jon
wasn't here?

| Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the body.

I just wanna throw some shit back at him, because I don't respect him that
much as a person, looking at his shitty remarks to other people. He
probably doesn't notice anyways, or what do you think??

As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his
observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more.
  Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just whatever?
Be a bit more polite? Be, you know, nice to people? Especially to people
he even doesn't know..

And I'd like to point out that Jon is just Jon. The world wouldn't stop
revolving if he just .. disappeared or anything. Even Apache wouldn't stop
working. Actually, nothing would stop working without him.
  That's the part this crude dude apparently haven't realized, talking
like that to whoever gets in the way of his thoughts..


Jon is not doing Apache any good being like he is. I sincerly hope there
isn't any "suits" watching this list at all, because that could ruin
much..


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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Re: ASPizer

[Pier Fumagalli]

Ceki Gulcu at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
> Endre,
> 
> Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
> he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a
> dumping ground for .bomb projects.
> 
> I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his
> mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of
> Jakarta. Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the
> body. 

Agree, he might be a pain from time to time (or most of the times, OK)...
But he has been around since 96? 95? can't even remember, and for sure
although he's sometimes harsh, most of the times (not ALL, Jon :) he's
right!

Pier


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Re: ASPizer

[Pier Fumagalli]

Alex McLintock at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Project X is written  because it is useful to Company Y.
> Company Y attempts to market Project X because they think it is useful to
> others.
> Company Y decides they wont get enough money for Project X
> Company Y offers Project X to the Opensource community.
> 
> What's wrong with that?

Nothing, but from a community standpoint, the ASF would rather incorporate
projects that are not backed up by a self-sustained open-development
community... Look at our last addition, Log4J, it was an IBM project, they
dumped it, Ceki forked it, build an open-source community around it, and
then we "inglobated" it under Jakarta (and it was a good addition)...

I actually don't care about the code... The code could be the crappies one
ever, but if the community behind it is good, it gets my preference over a
magnificent piece of code with a non-existent or screwed community...

Pier


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Problem with bug database search terms?

[Aaron Greenhouse]

I think there may be a problem with searching in the bug database.  I know
that bug 1669 contains the word "deadlock" in its summary.  If I search for
"deadlocK" in the database, however, it returns no bugs.  I tried searching
for substrings instead, such as "lock".  In this case bugs whose summaries
contain "blocks", "locking", "block", "list-block", "locks", etc., are
returned, but still not bug 1669, whose summary is "Logging 200,000 events
in rapid sequence causes AsyncAppender to deadlock."


---
Aaron Greenhouse --- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CMU SCS CSD PhD Student



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Re: ASPizer

[Paul Ilechko]

Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty clear that 
we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE continuing to work on 
ASPizer and support it, and have described the commitment we expect to make. Now, if 
anyone wants to look more closely at the product and make some informed comments, 
we'll be happy to share information.  I will not be responding to inane trolls. 

Paul. 

On Wed, 17 October 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:

> 
> 
> Endre,
> 
> Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around,
> he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a
> dumping ground for .bomb projects. 
> 
> I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his
> mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of
> Jakarta. Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the
> body. 
> 
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
> 
> | on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> |
> | > Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond
> | > sooner.
> | >
> | > A few comments:
> | >
> | > ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used
> | > on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a pr oduct by THBS, with the
> | > intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such
> | > as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining
> | > venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is
> | > to continue in that direction.
> |
> | We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects.
> 
> Why are you such an _asshole_ on mailing lists, Jon??
> 
> I just cannot believe your emails. They are such shit shometimes, it is
> just amazing!
> 
> Go Jon, Go Jon, Go Jon, Go JOOON!!!
> 
> YEAH!
> 
> Endre.
> 
> --
> Mvh,
> Endre
> 
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Re: IIS and Tomcat 4.0

[robert burrell donkin]

On Tuesday, October 16, 2001, at 07:03 PM, Clark Richey wrote:

> I am trying to connect Tomcat 4.0 to IIS with little luck. Can anyone 
> point
> me to some documentation on how to do this or provide me with 
> instructions?

the help you need can best be found on the tomcat-user list.

- robert

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Re: ASPizer

[Ceki Gulcu]

Endre,

> Of course it's not a dumping ground.
> 
> This is about whether the Open Source Community at Apache would be
> interested in a project. Starting the debate from Apache's side with such
> crude, ugly, disrespectful remarks like Jon's coming up with is just not
> fair. This company is "dumping" a whole lot of money too, I guess, coming
> from the investment in the software. There might be something there, just
> _might_ be something of interest.
> 
> Why not try to look at that before launching such shit at the person
> that is, basically, just trying to be nice!
> 
> | I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his
> | mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of
> | Jakarta.
> 
> Cornerstone and cornerstone. Would Jakarta crumble and die away if Jon
> wasn't here?

Contrary to the well known adage, some people are truly irreplaceable.
For example, if it wasn't for Winston S. Churchill we would probably
all be doing the Nazi salute today.  Speaking one's mind, especially
if expressing unpopular views, takes a lot of courage. It would make
Jon a lot more popular if he were always smooth and accomodating.
Jakarta needs people who can cut through the bullshit. Jon is one of
them.

Coming back to the issue at hand, if ASPizer authors are truly
committed to open source and the Apache model, they should counter
Jon's remarks and justify the reasons why their product should be part
of Jakarta.

Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Untactful?
Yes. Accurate statement? Yes.

In their propposal, THBS commits to two years of development while a
paragraph earlier they say that they can no longer fund the
project. What kind of bull is that? I did not read anyone but Jon take
the time challenge the inconsistencies in the proposal. We can all sit
back and criticize Jon's style. In the mean time, somebody has to get
the job done and it's often Jon. 

> | Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the body.
> 
> I just wanna throw some shit back at him, because I don't respect him that
> much as a person, looking at his shitty remarks to other people. He
> probably doesn't notice anyways, or what do you think??
> 
> As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his
> observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more.
>   Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just whatever?
> Be a bit more polite? Be, you know, nice to people? Especially to people
> he even doesn't know..

I rather relate to a person who is direct than someone who always
appears to be nice. 

> And I'd like to point out that Jon is just Jon. The world wouldn't stop
> revolving if he just .. disappeared or anything. Even Apache wouldn't stop
> working. Actually, nothing would stop working without him.

Jakarta is just Jakarta. The world wouldn't stop revolving if Jakarta
just .. disappeared or anything.  Even Apache wouldn't stop working.

>   That's the part this crude dude apparently haven't realized, talking
> like that to whoever gets in the way of his thoughts..

No one is proposing that you marry Jon. 
 
> Jon is not doing Apache any good being like he is. I sincerly hope there
> isn't any "suits" watching this list at all, because that could ruin
> much..

If you are trying to start a lynch party, you are unlikely to find
many suitors in this forum.  Regards, Ceki
 


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Re: ASPizer

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/17/01 9:24 AM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Nothing, but from a community standpoint, the ASF would rather incorporate
> projects that are not backed up by a self-sustained open-development
> community... Look at our last addition, Log4J, it was an IBM project, they
> dumped it, Ceki forked it, build an open-source community around it, and
> then we "inglobated" it under Jakarta (and it was a good addition)...
>
> I actually don't care about the code... The code could be the crappies one
> ever, but if the community behind it is good, it gets my preference over a
> magnificent piece of code with a non-existent or screwed community...

+1

This is similar to what I originally stated in my first response on the
subject as well as a bazillion times over the years:

> There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this
> to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is
> there anything that suggests what the developer community is like (ie:
> people who would be working on the product) nor the user community and the
> people who would be responsible for supporting the user community.

Maybe someday, someone will bother to read the archives before posting here
so that either I or Pier or someone else don't have to constantly explain
why a response of:

"We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects."

...isn't an asshole response, but just a simple summary of what we have been
saying here for the last 5 years.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty
> clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE
> continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and have described the
> commitment we expect to make.

I question that commitment. No, I'm not going to just take your word for it.

How can you commit to backing a project over the long term if your company
can't get funding? When your company goes out of business, what interest
will you have in developing this project over the long term?

You need to realize that the 5 years that I have been around here, I have
seen about 30-40 people just like you who come with some great project that
they want to see survive beyond their company who want to give us the great
pleasure of hosting for them so that they can maybe get some interest in it
because no one was willing to buy it.

We already have enough baggage around the Jakarta project. I think that
adding any new projects is going to have to be carefully considered. The
primary consideration is whether or not the project coming in has a
developer and user community around it. The reason is because it will be
these people who have to support the project long after the lead developers
or the company that created it disappeared.

The problem is that few people around here have been around for as long as I
have so they have a very small understanding of the amount of crap that we
have accumulated and gone through over the years. As a result, we have
really closed our doors to new projects that have no community before they
come here. Simply because we don't want to become a sourceforget.net (which
is where I would have recommended you to go in the first place instead of
pointing you at this list).

If you had bothered to read the archives before coming here, you would have
seen myself and others say similar things like the above over and over and
over again. Yes, this is prompting me to do yet even more work and create a
FAQ page for this stuff on the website. I'm tired of repeating myself.

> Now, if anyone wants to look more closely at the
> product and make some informed comments, we'll be happy to share information.
> I will not be responding to inane trolls.

How come you haven't put the source code out there under an OSS license yet
so that we can look at it before we decide to begin to even consider it?

thanks,

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

[Daniel F. Savarese]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ceki Gulcu writes:
>Coming back to the issue at hand, if ASPizer authors are truly
>committed to open source and the Apache model, they should counter
>Jon's remarks and justify the reasons why their product should be part
>of Jakarta.
...
>I did not read anyone but Jon take
>the time challenge the inconsistencies in the proposal. We can all sit
>back and criticize Jon's style. In the mean time, somebody has to get
>the job done and it's often Jon. 

I just wanted to echo Ceki's above statements which capture the two
issues beating around (project acceptance and Jon's critique).  Any
project proposal must overcome the criticisms leveled against it in
order to be accepted.  The debate can get seemingly ugly, but it's
a necessary filter to keep Jakarta on track.  Also, while some of us (I'm
thinking of myself in this instance) think "I don't have the time to write
a lengthy diplomatic criticism." and procrastinate on addressing an issue,
Jon takes the time out of his busy schedule and very efficiently summarizes
the issues in a couple of sentences (which is sometimes unfortunately taken
as tactless or even offensive rather than brief and to the point).  I've
lost track if we've brought this to a vote or not, but unless Jon's points
are adequately addressed, I have to cast a vote of -1 on accepting the
proposal.

daniel



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Re: ASPizer

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/17/01 9:35 AM, "Ceki Gulcu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Untactful?
> Yes. Accurate statement? Yes.

Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded:

> There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this
> to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is
> there anything that suggests what the developer community is like (ie:
> people who would be working on the product) nor the user community and the
> people who would be responsible for supporting the user community.

It didn't seem to get through to the guy so I brought it up a notch.

-jon


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RE: ASPizer

[Paulo Gaspar]

Jon,

This is a nice entry for the FAQ you are talking about. It is quite
reasonable and all.

Copying and pasting this somewhere and putting the corresponding
question before it is better than nothing and you get an URL to use
next time the problem pops up.

I quite like your well tempered writing - it is still direct to the
point but much less ofensive.


Thanks and have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 8:20 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ASPizer
>
>
> on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I
> was pretty
> > clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE
> > continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and have described the
> > commitment we expect to make.
>
> I question that commitment. No, I'm not going to just take your
> word for it.
>
> How can you commit to backing a project over the long term if your company
> can't get funding? When your company goes out of business, what interest
> will you have in developing this project over the long term?
>
> You need to realize that the 5 years that I have been around here, I have
> seen about 30-40 people just like you who come with some great
> project that
> they want to see survive beyond their company who want to give us
> the great
> pleasure of hosting for them so that they can maybe get some
> interest in it
> because no one was willing to buy it.
>
> We already have enough baggage around the Jakarta project. I think that
> adding any new projects is going to have to be carefully considered. The
> primary consideration is whether or not the project coming in has a
> developer and user community around it. The reason is because it will be
> these people who have to support the project long after the lead
> developers
> or the company that created it disappeared.
>
> The problem is that few people around here have been around for
> as long as I
> have so they have a very small understanding of the amount of crap that we
> have accumulated and gone through over the years. As a result, we have
> really closed our doors to new projects that have no community before they
> come here. Simply because we don't want to become a
> sourceforget.net (which
> is where I would have recommended you to go in the first place instead of
> pointing you at this list).
>
> If you had bothered to read the archives before coming here, you
> would have
> seen myself and others say similar things like the above over and over and
> over again. Yes, this is prompting me to do yet even more work
> and create a
> FAQ page for this stuff on the website. I'm tired of repeating myself.
>
> > Now, if anyone wants to look more closely at the
> > product and make some informed comments, we'll be happy to
> share information.
> > I will not be responding to inane trolls.
>
> How come you haven't put the source code out there under an OSS
> license yet
> so that we can look at it before we decide to begin to even consider it?
>
> thanks,
>
> -jon
>
>
> -
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Re: ASPizer

[Endre Stølsvik]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:

| > As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his
| > observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more.
| >   Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just whatever?
| > Be a bit more polite? Be, you know, nice to people? Especially to people
| > he even doesn't know..
|
| I rather relate to a person who is direct than someone who always
| appears to be nice.

Jon's last post is just so very much better. Why not start with something
like that? It's still pretty direct, but in a much nicer, somewhat
diplomatic way.

I just cannot understand how you can justify such extreme rudeness!?

|
| > And I'd like to point out that Jon is just Jon. The world wouldn't stop
| > revolving if he just .. disappeared or anything. Even Apache wouldn't stop
| > working. Actually, nothing would stop working without him.
|
| Jakarta is just Jakarta. The world wouldn't stop revolving if Jakarta
| just .. disappeared or anything.  Even Apache wouldn't stop working.

huh?

| > Jon is not doing Apache any good being like he is. I sincerly hope there
| > isn't any "suits" watching this list at all, because that could ruin
| > much..
|
| If you are trying to start a lynch party, you are unlikely to find
| many suitors in this forum.

I'm not. It's trying to point something out to Jon, actually. But he
definately does have a load of followers in this forum, protecting his 5
years earned rights to be rude. But I do know that there is several other
people that feel about the same way about Jon's behaviour on the lists he
subscribes to as me, tough. Just read the lists!


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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Re: ASPizer

[Paul Ilechko]

On Wed, 17 October 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:

> In their propposal, THBS commits to two years of development while a
> paragraph earlier they say that they can no longer fund the
> project. What kind of bull is that?

No, this is not what we said. We said we cannot fund taking the product to market, 
which is vastly different than being able to fund development. We are primarily a 
consulting company, and we have used ASPizer for a client project. We do not have a 
software sales channel, and we are not currently in a position to develop one. 

Paul. 


 


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Re: ASPizer

[Paul Ilechko]

On Wed, 17 October 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:


> Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded:
> 
> > There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this
> > to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is
> > there anything that suggests what the developer community is like (ie:
> > people who would be working on the product) nor the user community and the
> > people who would be responsible for supporting the user community.
> 
> It didn't seem to get through to the guy so I brought it up a notch.
> 
> -jon
 
Actually, I responded to all your points, then you decided it was time to insult us, 
at which point it no longer seemed worthwhile responding to you at all. Fortunately, 
not everyone on the list has the same attitude problem. 


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Re: ASPizer

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/17/01 1:21 PM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jon's last post is just so very much better. Why not start with something
> like that? It's still pretty direct, but in a much nicer, somewhat
> diplomatic way.

I did start nice. How come you choose to ignore that?

> I'm not. It's trying to point something out to Jon, actually. But he
> definately does have a load of followers in this forum, protecting his 5
> years earned rights to be rude. But I do know that there is several other
> people that feel about the same way about Jon's behaviour on the lists he
> subscribes to as me, tough. Just read the lists!

Yup, I admit it. I have a fairly low tolerance for bullshit.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/17/01 12:42 PM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Actually, I responded to all your points, then you decided it was time to
> insult us, at which point it no longer seemed worthwhile responding to you at
> all. Fortunately, not everyone on the list has the same attitude problem.

You see an attitude problem.

I see you getting defensive and making judgments of my personality based on
emails (and not even knowing me) because I don't jump up and exclaim joy for
your gracious offer of dumping your product on us.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 22:21 17.10.2001 +0200, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
>
>| > As a coder, I've mentioned before, he's apparently very good. And his
>| > observations and whatnot are also _insightful_, but nothing more.
>| >   Why not just package things just a little bit nicer? Or just whatever?
>| > Be a bit more polite? Be, you know, nice to people? Especially to people
>| > he even doesn't know..
>|
>| I rather relate to a person who is direct than someone who always
>| appears to be nice.
>
>Jon's last post is just so very much better. Why not start with something
>like that? It's still pretty direct, but in a much nicer, somewhat
>diplomatic way.
>
>I just cannot understand how you can justify such extreme rudeness!?

What extreme rudeness? Jon justifiably told Ranjit Mathew that Jakarta 
was not a dumping ground. He also outlined that unlikely promises were not 
good enough. While one may criticize his direct style, Jakarta is not a
popularity contest.

On the other hand, how do you qualify calling Jon an asshole? Unless you were
referring to the usefulness of that body part in evacuating shit, your name calling
constitutes extreme rudeness in itself.  Your subsequent comments were not 
much better either.

>| > Jon is not doing Apache any good being like he is. I sincerly hope there
>| > isn't any "suits" watching this list at all, because that could ruin
>| > much..
>|
>| If you are trying to start a lynch party, you are unlikely to find
>| many suitors in this forum.
>
>I'm not. It's trying to point something out to Jon, actually. But he
>definately does have a load of followers in this forum, protecting his 5
>years earned rights to be rude. But I do know that there is several other
>people that feel about the same way about Jon's behaviour on the lists he
>subscribes to as me, tough. Just read the lists!

The only one being rude in this forum is you. Ceki


--
Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch
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Re: ASPizer

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 12:42 17.10.2001 -0700, Paul Ilechko wrote:
>On Wed, 17 October 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
>
>
>> Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded:
>> 
>> > There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this
>> > to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is
>> > there anything that suggests what the developer community is like (ie:
>> > people who would be working on the product) nor the user community and the
>> > people who would be responsible for supporting the user community.
>> 
>> It didn't seem to get through to the guy so I brought it up a notch.
>> 
>> -jon
> 
>Actually, I responded to all your points, then you decided it was time to insult us, 
>at which point it no longer seemed worthwhile responding to you at all. Fortunately, 
>not everyone on the list has the same attitude problem. 

I am sorry but what insult are you referring to? Disagreement != insult.


--
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Re: ASPizer

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/17/01 12:24 PM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> No, this is not what we said. We said we cannot fund taking the product to
> market, which is vastly different than being able to fund development. We are
> primarily a consulting company, and we have used ASPizer for a client project.
> We do not have a software sales channel, and we are not currently in a
> position to develop one.
> 
>   Paul. 

Let me quote you:

"However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP
market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have
decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that
direction."

And:

"We intend to continue to provide development support, and we have no
problem to committing 3 developers in an ongoing basis."


If you don't have the money to fund development of the product, then how are
you going to have money to keep several engineers working on it and
supporting it? You keep contradicting yourself.

Even still, that doesn't deal with the issues surrounding the need to have
an established community as well as even letting us look at the code base (I
care if the code and design is good or not).

-jon


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RE: ASPizer

[Paul Ilechko]

> Let me quote you:
>
> "However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP
> market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have
> decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that
> direction."
>
> And:
>
> "We intend to continue to provide development support, and we have no
> problem to committing 3 developers in an ongoing basis."
>
>
> If you don't have the money to fund development of the product,
> then how are
> you going to have money to keep several engineers working on it and
> supporting it? You keep contradicting yourself.

I've already responded to that. You jumped to an incorrect conclusion, and
attacked without even atttempting to get clarification.

> Even still, that doesn't deal with the issues surrounding the need to have
> an established community as well as even letting us look at the
> code base (I
> care if the code and design is good or not).

Sorry, I don't ever recall you asking to see the code or the design. We have
sent design docs to someone from Apache who was interested enough to ask for
them. "Established Communities" don't suddenly appear full-fledged from
nowhere - we have developers to seed a community, all we are doing is
looking to see if there is interest in the product. Why are you so
threatened by this ?


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Re: ASPizer

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/17/01 3:33 PM, "Paul Ilechko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I've already responded to that. You jumped to an incorrect conclusion, and
> attacked without even atttempting to get clarification.

There is no conclusion. There is no attack. You still haven't responded to
my question and your dodgy and defensive response don't leave me feeling any
more comfortable.

I have re-read over all of your emails and I still don't see my questions
answered. If you have responded to my direct question, then I apologize and
please paste it here again, because I certainly missed it.

> Sorry, I don't ever recall you asking to see the code or the design.

That is because we haven't even gotten past the first set of requirements
yet.

> We have
> sent design docs to someone from Apache who was interested enough to ask for
> them.

They should just be published on the web and available for everyone to look
at already. We shouldn't have to ask for them, they should already be
provided.

> "Established Communities" don't suddenly appear full-fledged from
> nowhere

EXACTLY! That is the point I am trying to convey that you don't seem to be
understanding. We don't want projects that haven't taken the time to create
the established communities. I don't care how 'cool' you might think your
piece of software is.

If there isn't interest in it, then it will become a sore point in our
collection of software.

> - we have developers to seed a community

For how long? Sometimes it takes years.

>, all we are doing is
> looking to see if there is interest in the product. Why are you so
> threatened by this ?

There is no threat. There is only your inability to prove that your project
satisfies the requirements that we have been giving you.

I feel like I keep giving you chances to prove your project as being worthy
for inclusion here (by satisfying the requirements laid out) and you keep
trying to turn it around into an attack on you. Given your defensive nature
I now question even more the ability of you and your project to thrive in
this open arena.

-1

-jon


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RE: ASPizer

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 11:54 PM
>
> I am sorry but what insult are you referring to?


Calling someone's hard-worked project ".bomb", without even
trying to get informed about it.

Does this qualify?


Have fun,
Paulo




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RE: ASPizer

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Ilechko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 12:33 AM
> 
> ...
>
> ... Why are you so threatened by this ?

Jumping to conclusions about the motivations of someone else is 
a way of getting personal. That is always counterproductive.

Stick to the facts, as in the rest of the mail.


Have fun,
Paulo


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Re: ASPizer

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/17/01 4:29 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Calling someone's hard-worked project ".bomb", without even
> trying to get informed about it.
>
> Does this qualify?

It is a .bomb project though. I have an entire corporation of them (yes, I
am the proud owner of a rather large worthless shareholders certificate).
Big deal.

Sorry, I don't see an offense in that.

-jon


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RE: ASPizer

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 1:14 AM
> 
> ...
>
> ...Given your defensive nature I now question even more the 
> ability of you and your project to thrive in this open arena.

Jumping to conclusions about the personality of someone else is 
a way of getting personal. That is always counterproductive.

Stick to the facts, as in the rest of the mail.


Have fun,
Paulo

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Re: ASPizer

[Jon Stevens]

I don't have any more time for this. End of discussion. I'm not going to
change my mind.

-1

My suggestion:

Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost.

Good luck.

-jon


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Re[2]: ASPizer

[Jonathan Pierce]

>>Jon justifiably told Ranjit Mathew that Jakarta 
>>was not a dumping ground. He also outlined that unlikely promises were >>not
good enough. While one may criticize his direct style, Jakarta is not a
popularity contest.

As an unbiased observer, I fully support Jon's behavior here and appreciate his
direct style in this discussion as well as past discussions on this list. His
direct style allows the discussion to remain focused on technical issues and
opinions.

I've had the same sort of communication conflicts with other developers who
might not agree with my views or attempt to use political levarage and
dishonesty to distort the discussion and manipulate less technical observers who
don't fully understand the technical issues involved.


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Re: ASPizer

[Scott Tacares]

- Original Message -
From: "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: ASPizer

> Agree, he might be a pain from time to time (or most of the times, OK)...
> But he has been around since 96? 95? can't even remember, and for sure
> although he's sometimes harsh, most of the times (not ALL, Jon :) he's
> right!
>

I don't care if he was here before time and space there is no excuse! He
does damage to the entire open source community with his crude and
unjustified remarks. It makes people shy away from participating in fear
that he may belittle them, this is just unacceptable! PERIOD!

Two years ago, I decided that I would not ever contribute to any project
that jon was apart of because of his piss poor aptitude and judgment and to
this day I have not, which really sucks for me, because I want nothing more
then to so.

-ScottTavares-


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Re: ASPizer

[Sam Ruby]

Daniel Rall wrote:
>
> ASPizer guys: you have the option to re-submit your proposal in a
> manner which directly addresses the questions raised here.  People do
> sometimes change their minds when presented with a comprehensive set
> of information in a format desirable to them.

+1

Just remember, Jakarta has a high threshold for creating new projects.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: ASPizer

[Avi Cherry]

At 8:00 PM -0400 10/17/01, Scott Tacares wrote:
>I don't care if he was here before time and space there is no excuse! He
>does damage to the entire open source community with his crude and
>unjustified remarks. It makes people shy away from participating in fear
>that he may belittle them, this is just unacceptable! PERIOD!
>
>Two years ago, I decided that I would not ever contribute to any project
>that jon was apart of because of his piss poor aptitude and judgment and to
>this day I have not, which really sucks for me, because I want nothing more
>then to so.

I'm generally just a lurker here, but I have to speak up here and say 
that I agree with this.  I think Jon is USUALLY spot on with most of 
his opinions, but I'm not here to argue about if he's right or wrong 
about Apache-related business.  My problem is that he's rude.  He 
seems to go out of his way to be rude and to speak his opinions, no 
matter how correct, in a very harsh manner.  He asks why people get 
defensive about what he says?  That's because he's being OFFENSIVE. 
I also agree that I would never want to be actively involved in a 
project with him simply because his presence is a deterrent.  Not 
everyone has as thick of a skin as others.  This does not make them 
less valuable to the community, but it does make them less likely to 
want to speak an informed opinion if they think that Jon might be 
ready to jump on their head if he disagrees with them.  This seems 
like a net loss all around.

I believe it's possible for Jon to be just as useful to the Apache 
communities without him having to act in a way that's going to drive 
people away from him.  Jon can manage to be both extremely 
informative as well as (relatively) polite.  He made a post at 
11:19AM PST that if he would have made at the beginning of this 
discussion, might have avoided this entire thread.  Instead, he 
questioned the motives of the developer offering their code, implying 
that he was being selfish in wanting to have the Apache group take 
the project in.  This was obviously not his intent, and to imply that 
his motivations were selfish is something I simply cannot understand. 
His main point that the project doesn't satisfy the requirements for 
being an Apache project is probably correct, but the manner he chose 
to point this out seemed hostile to me.

Jon, it wouldn't kill you to be polite.  If someone says or does 
something that you don't agree with, please consider taking a deep 
breath, having a beer, smoking a joint.  Whatever.  Just calm down 
and take a moment to word your response in a way that doesn't make 
you look like the list's resident ogre.  If then, after your first 
polite reply, they still don't "get it" by all means, go in with guns 
blazing.

Avi Cherry

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Re: ASPizer

[Sean Legassick]

In message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Endre 
Stølsvik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>I'm not. It's trying to point something out to Jon, actually. But he
>definately does have a load of followers in this forum, protecting his 5
>years earned rights to be rude. But I do know that there is several other
>people that feel about the same way about Jon's behaviour on the lists he
>subscribes to as me, tough. Just read the lists!

Just to add my $0.002 cents worth, it was Jon's attitude 
on the jserv list that got me engaged with Apache/Java stuff in the 
first place. (And I've now contributed a fair amount to Turbine as well 
as a little elsewhere).

The thing is that most people who do open source work do it for the 
fun/satisfaction of the thing, and engaging in debates with someone who 
truly speaks their mind and only compliments your work when its worth 
complimenting helps out with that fun/satisfaction thing.

If you want nice polite accommodating support go to someone that you 
_pay_ not to tell you you're being an idiot when you're being an idiot.

-- 
Sean Legassick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Hombre soy, nada humano me puede ser ajeno

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Re: ASPizer

[Daniel Rall]

Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I don't have any more time for this. End of discussion. I'm not going to
> change my mind.
>
> -1

ASPizer guys: you have the option to re-submit your proposal in a
manner which directly addresses the questions raised here.  People do
sometimes change their minds when presented with a comprehensive set
of information in a format desirable to them.

Design, developer, and user documentation, example code, and a
reference implementation definitely increase--but not guarantee--the
chances of Jakarta acceptance of non-established projects.

- Daniel Rall

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