Re: [Goanet] Goan girls avoid foeticide; made to wear salwar-khameez
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, Thank you for the novella that you've taken time to write. Thank you also for updating us once again how right-wing conservatives are so concerned about abortion and "creating a culture" of life, while simultaneously not really being concerned about the living. Why else would they be against gun control, stem-cell research, gay rights and anything else that might make life more livable and lovable for a multitude of people. Secondly, just as you are so certain that some posters on this board are anti-Christian or not following your rock solid code of conduct, you seem to be very certain about what lies in the heart of every parent who decides to take this very painful decision. That they are just "abortion-happy" as you put it, and that they would like nothing better than to tear their babies from limb to limb and discard them like thrash. Incidentally, it's spelt trash :) I suspect your outrage is not at all about female foeticide in India but about abortion in general. As such I have no desire to get into a protracted debate about the morality of abortion. It's an individual decision and each individual is blessed with their own moral compass to guide them in taking this decision. I am not their moral custodian nor do I have any wish to impose my code of conduct on anyone else. If we do so, we are assuming that people primarily are incapable of making their own decisions in life and must be "legislated into subservience" at every point. I find this hard to take coming from a man who routinely reminds us that micro-managing economy policy is detrimental to the natural laws of the market. Apparently micro-managing morality doesn't have the same effect. Elisabeth - --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I was wondering when your "left-wing intellectual" > ideology would get around to supporting abortion, > which you say is an "undisputed" right. How can you > then turn around and say you find only female > foeticide abhorrent? > > > Since you abhor only female foeticide as the mother > of > a daughter, does this ipso facto mean that male > foeticide is OK with you? You have already said you > support elective foeticide which is what abortion > is. > > > While I agree 100% that any woman and/or parent > should > have an "undisputed" right to decide whether they > want > children or not, once conception occurs, it gets far > more complicated. I'm pretty sure the foetus they > create would strenuously dispute whether it should > be torn limb from limb and discarded like thrash.> > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: India gobbling the world - Malthus, Cornel and me
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, Cornel, my soul-mate. Wow! I consider that a compliment, I am unworthy off. And there I thought you couldn't say a nice word of either Cornel or me! Elisabeth Mario wrote: Your liberal soul-mate, Cornel, > describes anyone who agrees with you two as > "educated" > and those who don't as "uneducated". > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: Further to the Da Vinci Code (Re evangelisation)
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Vid, We seem to be on agreement on the whole. When I referred to Hindu religious authorities, I did not mean the polity. I meant was there a collective apology to Christians, on behalf of Hindus for the atrocities carried out. In general, I do not seek apologies because I really do think they are redundant. My point was simply that there has been insanity on all fronts in the name of religion. Let that be water under the bridge and let's move on as a secular India. Elisabeth --- > > We must always be careful to distinguish between > Hinduism (the religion) > and Hindutva (the political ideology). The dangers > of such confusion are > clear, to make an analogy, what if people the world > over start blaming > Christians in general and 'Christian religious > authorities' for the > imperialist agenda of George Bush, which is clearly > motivated by his > skewed interpretation of Christian fundamentalist > doctrine? > > -- > Question everything -- Karl Marx > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Further to the Da Vinci Code (Re evangelisation)
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Hi Cornel, Unfortunately there are a lot of Believers' and Charismatic groups operating in Goa and India, that are actively pursuing evangelisation. Although initially the Catholic Church had distanced itself from Charistmatic groups, it seems to have reduced that distance now. Perhaps this is owing to the fact that a lot of Goans are attracted to these movements, which are perceived to be slightly more dynamic that the mainstream Church. Active evangelisation is very sad indeed and especially when pursued with the idea of "salvation" tagged onto it. We are as irrelevant as ants on this universe and yet we assume ourselves to be so grandiose as to be concerned with the "salvation" of mankind. Elisabeth Cornel wrote: > Hi Elizabeth > Irrespective of Kamath's warning shot or rant, and > the sad case of the > murdered Australian missionaries, or for that matter > other cases, I would > think that an active and organised policy of > Catholic evangelisation in > India is fraught with danger. Would you not agree on > this? I saw the process > of evangelisation taking place for myself in Goa in > Margao Municipal Garden > on Easter day in April 2006 and observed what was > going on for a good half > hour. Later, that day, I met the organiser socially > in Colva where he worked > at the Sea Coin in the evenings. Although a most > pleasant fellow, I was > horrified by his insistence and deep belief that > Christ's teaching should be > actively disseminated to those who have not heard > the word of God. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] 1700 hrs and it's pouring in Goa
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Cornel, Al Gore will not run for president. He knows his ship has sailed. He's also said that he is very comfortable in fighting for his causes from the outside rather than battling the beltway boys. Keeping post short as per rules. Elisabeth --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * > F * I * E * D * S * > > Hi Elizabeth and Fred > I had previously written off Al Gore as a loser. > However, he seems to have > re-invented himself via the environmental issue. I > reckon he has surprised > himself with recent success and may well think of a > second go for the > Presidency. If this were to happen, would choosing > Hilary as a running mate > help him? > Cornel > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Further to the Da Vinci Code (Re evangelisation)
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Cornel, First of all, let me state that I too am against evangelisation of any sort by any religion or religious sect or pseudo-religious sect. I have always said that if someone wishes to worship a stone and believe that that stone has the ability to impact his life, by appropriate propitiation, then so be it. Having said that, I found MV Kamath's letter strangely uncomfortable. The words were ill-chosen and unfortunately incendiary. I googled to see what exactly the Pope had said which got MV Kamath all riled up. The Pope is talking about conversions that take place in India voluntarily. And it is the moral right of every human being to convert if he so desires. I don't have any statistics on how many forceful conversions take place in India. I know that a lot of Catholic missionaries are doing wonderful work in the rural areas, and there is a sort of "food for God" ideology practiced sometimes, but this is such soft pedaling that it should hardly garner the wrath very often expressed by, yes, Hindu fundamentalist. MV Kamath, writes this in his letter: The Pope owes an apology to Hindus and to India on bended knees. Really, did Hindu religious authorities offer apologies to Christians or the Pope, when they saw fit to burn Australian missionary Graham Staines and his two sons. Do they offer apologies when they rape nuns, attack Catholic schools, hospitals and churches. Even in Goa, the insidious tumour of hate has taken seed. Atrocities have been carried out in the name of religion for centuries now. It's about time we stopped in the name of God. Elisabeth - > Goanetters, > The people of Goa have demonstrated muscle over the > Da Vinci Code whether we > agree with this or not, and the mechanism by which > this was achieved. I now > sincerely hope that, such muscle will be shown > against the highly risky and > misguided business of the Catholic Church in its > assertiveness over > evangelisation in India. > > I had discussed this issue previously but the > recently reported concern and > anger on this matter, as expressed by MV Kamath, has > to be taken very > seriously. I therefore want to place my extreme > concern over this issue, for > the record on Goanet, even if I am very much in the > minority. The debate on > the temple/church issue (hopefully temporarily > exhausted), is insignificant > compared to the monster being officially unleashed > by the Church in a highly > volatile India over religion. > Cornel > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Funnymen Goa Policemen
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Is it just me or does anyone else think that Goa police are imbecilic morons? Everytime I read a crime story in Goa, I somehow picture a Bollywood style policemen, wearing Hawaldar pants, twirling his mustache and hoping to come across a villain who utters the infamous line "Prem hai mera naam, chori mera kaam". The only detective tool available to police seems to be those hapless police dogs which appear on the scene whether it be a robbery, rape or murder. What are those dogs supposed to do exactly? Anyone with half a brain operating, knows that sniffer dogs will sniff a trail only if they have a scent to pursue. Can we assume that the robbers or murderers dropped off their jackets at the police station prior to proceeding on their way to rob Mr & Mrs Amit Gaunkar? Come on chaps, get with it. What about sketch artists? What about fingerprints? What about some forensics, however basic they maybe. If you can't manage to get a team trained in forensics, I suggest you rent the enter season of CSI, available on DVD and make your short-pant clad Hawaldars watch it. I once had the pleasure of observing security detail being put in place for a "tight-security" operation. There was a chain of police that stretched from the Zuari bridge all the way upto Vasco city. Ofcourse there was a one mile distance between each policemen and none of them had a walk-talkie. In the event some terrorist was spotted by a cop, I'm assuming there would be a relay race all the way to the police headquarters? The crime rate in Goa is soaring faster that the price of fish. At least give those dogs a dog biscuit. I'm sure they take their jobs far more seriously than our policemen. Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] 1700 hrs and it's pouring in Goa
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Fred, If you haven't already watched the Al Gore movie, An Inconvenient Truth, do watch it. You'll enjoy it and find it of interest. Elisabeth --- > In recent years, amidst talk of climate change (aka > global warming), we > are seeing a lot of extremities in weather > condition. When it rains, it > really rains heavily. When it doesn't, it's dry for > days. > > And, has anyone studied the earlier-believed (and > apparently true) > corelation between phases of the moon and the > weather? Farmers and > agriculturists in Goa generally calculate a good > planting season by > looking at the 'omas' and 'punov' (full and new > moon) on the local > almanacs. FN __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa History: Destruction of Temples/In defense of Marlon
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, I don't know how well you know Marlon but I've known Marlon Menezes for 7 years and counting, and yes he does support numerous causes, especially in Goa. While we constantly take liberties at belittling another people's points of view or arguments, please let us stop short of belittling other people's character, reputation and achievements. In all the years that I've know Marlon, he's never treated me with disrespect and that is as Christian as one gets. Elisabeth - > > > The one thing we can be sure about based on > extensive > evidence in the archives is that his spin will be > consistently anti-Christian on the grounds that he > is > really doing Christians a favor by "exposing their > insecurities". This is accompanied by the sophistry > > that he is really not anti-Christian because he > supports freedom of religion and that he has > contributed to Christian causes, which I'm sure he > has > the receipts and cancelled checks to prove:-)) > > > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Foeticide in India
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, I know you wanted the women on this forum to share their views on the matter of foeticide in India. Again apologies for the delay. Let me preface my post by saying that as the mother of a daughter I find female foetocide abhorrent to say the least. There are not enough poems to describe the loveliness of a daughter. With respect to the doctors who were hailed off to jail for aborting the female foetus, I do not find this an acceptable solution. Our medical professionals cannot be held accountable for something that is primarily not illegal in India, which is abortion. I have to wonder, were the parents also jailed? For the real culprits are the parents. It is however impossible to prove motive when trying to punish parents and the government cannot be society's moral custodian on this issue. Since I have been bestowed the credentials of "left-wing intellectual", and in keeping with them, I am fundamentally not opposed to abortion. It is the undisputed right of the women or at the very least the parents. Which brings us back to the Salwaar Kameez. We have to ask ourselves, what sort of society are we creating in India. Are we creating a society that values women, that treats them with dignity and respect? Or are we creating a society that perpetuates inequalities and demeans women at every point, or even more sadistically caricatures them into either "Madonnas" or "whores". We have to change society at its roots. You'll find that foeticide is almost nonexistent in Goa. There is a reason for that. Education and respect for gender equality (as much as was possible within the social context of that time) have been an important part of our culture. We have to change society at its roots. And when changes take place in society (such as Salwaar Kammez as the uniform) it may seem benign to the naked eye, but we have to ask questions as to what its actual implications are. Which explains my outrage at the Salwaar Kameez. Also I've never really looked good in one :)) Elisabeth - __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] The Dangers of certain topics (relating to Churches)
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Cornel, I too agree with your position on evangelisation. Infact I am against evangelisation by any religion or sect. Goa, particularly has to be very careful about being evangelised into the "Believers ideology" but that is another post and another hobby horse of mine to ride. Elisabeth --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > However, my real worry is about the assertive stance > of the Catholic Church > to evangelise in India/Asia etc. I do not want this > precisely for the > reasons you have identified. This generates real > fear in me because the > approach is pretty provocative I think. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: India gobbling the world - Malthus was never wrong!
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, Let me first apologise for the delay in responding. I have been otherwise occupied. Summer in Minnesota is a wonderful time of year. I hope you visit us sometimes. Let me preface this post by saying that I have tremendous respect for Dr Singh. If the Mahatma is the "Father of the Nation", then certainly Dr Singh deserves the honour as the "Architect of India's Modern Economy". I am in no way, begrudging India the tremendous strides it has made, which seemed almost impossible given the bleak scenario it was faced with just a few years back. Having said that, any serious economist has to be gravely concerned with India's population. Even the article link that someone provided on this forum had this to say: Last year per capita income in India was $3,300; in China it was $6,800. Prosperity and progress haven't touched many of the nearly 650,000 villages where more than two-thirds of India's population lives. Backbreaking, empty-stomach poverty, which China has been tackling successfully for decades, is still all too common in India. Education for women -- the key driver of China's rise to become the workshop of the world -- lags terribly in India. It is true that you are either a Malthusian economist or you are not. For better or for worse. I am. The basic premise of Malthus' paper was never really wrong. That resources are not infinite and that unchecked populations will be detrimental. In the time that he made his observations, food was the essential resource. In our time, poverty is not defined as not having enough to eat, although for large sections of the world population it does not even meet this criteria. In the time we live in, we can be abysmally poor, living in urban ghettos, sharing accommodation with rodents, drinking water from infested sewers, being subjected to all the ills that poverty brings with it, drugs, prostitution, alcoholism, violence. This is the poverty that grips us. To keep my post as brief as possible, let me sum up by saying that the reason I constantly harp on population in India is because both national parties, The Congress and the BJP have forsaken any concerted efforts to curtail population. It is unpopular to do so and politics in India is all about the vote bank. India is poised to become the most populous country by the year 2015. Heaven help us all. Elisabeth - > Mario observes: > Based on this India and China should have been > facing > mass starvation by now. However, because people > don't > sit still in the face of problems but develop > solutions, both countries are self-sufficient in > their > food supplies, and are even exporting food. > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] The Dangers of certain topics (relating to Churches)
Dear fellow posters, I don't mean to be Chicken Little here, but in a moment I will seem to be. I haven't followed the discussion about Catholic Churches being built atop Hindu temples in its entirety, just in bits and pieces. While I certainly don't want to advise anyone on what to discuss, I think in the political climate that we live in today. Christians have to show some responsibility in the assertions that they make. Perhaps Hindu temples were destroyed. Perhaps churches were built atop temples. All of that happened in the social and political context of that era. We as Christians today, cannot bear responsibility for it. Communal tolerance in Goa today is tenuous to say the least. The air is thick with tension, especially in certain parts of Goa. Two years back even a benign feast like the Bonderan feast was politicised and religious tension stoked. It didn't take long for the Babri Mosque to fall. It won't take long before the legitimacy of our churches is called into question. Yes, it is nice to sit in our NRI lounge chairs and debate about issues, but in our zeal to debate our point of view, let us also show some restraint and responsibility. Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: Dubai & Terrorism/response to Mario
Dear Mario, The reason I often choose not to respond to posts is because having made my point I do not wish to belabour it. I know it is customary on this forum to go back and forth on arguments but I have neither the time nor the inclination to do so. The other reasons I did not respond to a post concerning Dubai is because (a) I understand it would be considered off topic on this forum (b) I found it hilarious that you would tell a person who has spent her entire life in Dubai, that she does not know about Dubai. I could give you a detailed history of Dubai, about their politics, their aspirations, their hopes and dreams for the future but I doubt it would make any difference to your point of view. Your assertion that the US is so tolerant of Muslims and doesn't lump them all together, is made null and void by your very next assertion that the Dubai Ports Deals was reneged on, because Dubai has ties with Hamas and Hezbollah. They are all terrorists, aren't they? Incidentally, forget about politics, let me give you a personal example. Ever since 9/11, there hasn't been a single flight my husband and I have taken at an American Airport without being subjected to a secondary full body search, and my husband travels a lot which rules out the law of probability. So much for not "lumping all of them together". Elisabeth - > On an intellectual level, though, I am a little > disappointed that you again resorted to the same > kind > of generalities that I am noticing recently from > people who disagree with me. In my post I gave a > detailed and logical explanation about Iraq's > missing > WMD's. You were obviously unable to rebutt a single > fact or opinion that I mentioned, apparently > believing > that ridicule would be an adequate cover-up for a > lack > of fact and logic. > > > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] child labour in India
Dear Cornel, Bravo to you! I don't know if you've watched the documentary Born in a Brothel, I highly recommend it. It doesn't deal with child labour at all but as the title states it's about children born to Indian prostitutes. What struck me is, when these children were given opportunities two things happened, a) some parents snatched the opportunity right back from them b)some showed such phenomenal talent that it broke my heart; but for an accident of birth their potential will remain buried. Elisabeth - --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Elizabeth > Re my brief post on extensive child labour and > virtual slavery in India for > the production of consumer goods in today's > capitalist India, I forgot to > add that I am ashamed to be an Indian on this count > and am working with > people here who are endeavouring to boycott goods > produced by children as > young as five. This could paradoxically hurt those > very children and their > families but ways and means of getting over this new > hurdle are being > explored so that the children can manage to get to > schools instead of > factories. > > Other groups are focussing on similar situations > elsewhere. > Cornel > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: Dubai & Terrorism/response to Mario
Dear Mario, Sometimes you make me laugh and laugh and laugh. I laugh so hard, I just roll off my couch. Believe me there are more weapons of mass destruction, hidden by my little daughter, underneath my couch than there are in Iraq. Elisabeth Mario wrote: > You apparently believe the illogic that because the > WMD's were not found, Iraq had none. > > > The more plausible explanation is simply that they > are > still hidden either in Iraq or Syria. Stocks of > chemical and biological WMD's do not require much > space. The logic behind this version is that, had > Iraq really not had WMD's, Saddam would have been > able > to comply with any one of the 17 UN resolutions, the > last one containing an ultimatum of serious > consequences by force. > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Fwd: Re: [Goanet] India gobbling the world - Malthus be gone!
Note: forwarded message attached. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- Begin Message --- I am sure as, Dr Khushwant Singh and Chidambaram, revel in the headway that India is making, their foremost wish is Malthus be gone. Unfortunately, the spectre of Maltus will follow both India and China well into the next century. One of the economic magazines is carrying a story, about how China's economic boom is confined to the neon lights of Shanghai and Beijing. Outer China is mostly disenfranchised, living in dire poverty, with disparities at their widest. China is an experiment in various forms of economic governance. Most of which have been futile. It remains to be seen where their latest quasi-embrace of capitalism will lead them. There is a school of economic thought that believes large populations are actually a viable asset to an economy. I've never belonged to that school. Large populations are nothing more than serfs that provide cheap labour to the industrialised world in one form or another. The manufacturing jobs of America, that sustained a middle-class income in America, once exported became nothing more than sweatshops in China, where poor peasants sell their souls to the sweatshop "massa", and work into the wee hours of morn. The shiny BPO offices of India today will, once the demand flattens out and supply increases, become nothing more than cubicles for clerks who mindlessly churn out data for businesses fattened with the profits of cheap labour. No, no, I am not against liberalisation and outsourcing. I am against this euphoric proclamation that the Second Coming of India is at hand. India has a severe population problem and it has one of the lowest per capita incomes in the world because of this. It has to come to terms with this reality. It has to have a polity that addresses this situation. It has to beg, borrow or steal technology to reduce its ever growing dependence on oil. And it has to invest intensively in R&D. It cannot be a peddler of second-hand technology, it must be the originator. For India to overcome the Maltusian conundrum, it has to have a pronged approach. A proclamation that India has arrived based solely on advances made in limited sectors, is premature to say the least. As an Indian I sincerely hope that India has a linear growth progression, I really do. Elisabeth --- --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mario > Ah! So there are impediments in India's way to > imminent super economic > status. This is what I kept saying and you were so > dismissive. Have you > woken up? > Cornel > - Original Message - > From: "Mario Goveia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 12:26 AM > Subject: Re: [Goanet] India gobbling the world > > > > --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Hi Gilbert, > >> As you know, I have felt some scepticism about > >> India's rapid growth to super economic status in > >> the imminent future but I dearly hope it is true > >> and that we will not be disappointed. > >> > > Mario observes: > >> > > India's rapid economic growth can be plainly seen > by > > anyone open to the facts. What is lagging in > India > > march towards super-power status is corresponding > > growth in the transportation and communications > > infrastructure, and most sadly in the area of > civic > > sense, due to a perplexing lack of civic respect > for > > rules and regulations and for others, particularly > > strangers. > >> > > > > _ > > Do not post admin requests to the list. > > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > > > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- End Message --- _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Talibanisation of Goa. /response to Mario
Dear Mario, I really do think you are suffering from a rare form of PDD, known as PDD by Proxy. Not only do you feel the need to defend your point of view ad infinitum but you feel the obsessive need to either defend or take umbrage at someone else's point of view or emotional state of being, be it shame or disappointment, and then label it as you would like it to be. To put hyperbole in context, according to you and Gilbert, the Association of Goan Atheists and Agnostics, are frequently seen running the streets naked, burning kastis and culminating in an orgy to rival Dionysus. It's another matter that none of us have ever be fortunate enough to witness such an event. In anycase, I shall take your point under advisement and write to the PTA, to stop robbing our young girls of their self-worth and reinstate a Britney Spears version of the good ole school uniform. Elisabeth - Mario muses: > > > Preetam & Elisabeth, > With all due respect, while I agree that this new > dress code is silly and intrusive in the increasing > global social climate, I still don't get this new > sentiment of being "ashamed" at the drop of a hat - > of > something one has nothing to do with. I think that > real "shame" is best reserved for personal > transgressions, and sentiments like regret, > dejection, > bemusement, indignation and anger for those of > others. > > > And now, "actually terrified" - why? Because some > silly, overbearing bureaucrat is taking himself or > herself too seriously in suggesting a salwar-khameez > dress code for school girls? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Talibanisation of Goa./To Mr Floriano
Dear Mr Floriano, Likewise I am a great admirer of yours, although I do not warrant your reciprocal admiration. You, Sir are a doer and are doing much good for Goa. You are the alternative voice that Goa needs. It is unfortunate that a grass-roots movement such as yours will take a long time to grow in Goa but the seed has been planted. I have been looking for a link, where contributions to your party are welcomed. I will also encourage other NRIs to read about your party and support you as much as possible. As I side note, I really admired your stance on the Da Vinci Code. Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re "True Knowledge"/ To Cornel
Thanks Cornel, Will try to look it up, although the University library is pretty far from where I live. Isn't the University lovely? Elisabeth -- __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] India gobbling the world - Malthus be gone!
I am sure as, Dr Khushwant Singh and Chidambaram, revel in the headway that India is making, their foremost wish is Malthus be gone. Unfortunately, the spectre of Maltus will follow both India and China well into the next century. One of the economic magazines is carrying a story, about how China's economic boom is confined to the neon lights of Shanghai and Beijing. Outer China is mostly disenfranchised, living in dire poverty, with disparities at their widest. China is an experiment in various forms of economic governance. Most of which have been futile. It remains to be seen where their latest quasi-embrace of capitalism will lead them. There is a school of economic thought that believes large populations are actually a viable asset to an economy. I've never belonged to that school. Large populations are nothing more than serfs that provide cheap labour to the industrialised world in one form or another. The manufacturing jobs of America, that sustained a middle-class income in America, once exported became nothing more than sweatshops in China, where poor peasants sell their souls to the sweatshop "massa", and work into the wee hours of morn. The shiny BPO offices of India today will, once the demand flattens out and supply increases, become nothing more than cubicles for clerks who mindlessly churn out data for businesses fattened with the profits of cheap labour. No, no, I am not against liberalisation and outsourcing. I am against this euphoric proclamation that the Second Coming of India is at hand. India has a severe population problem and it has one of the lowest per capita incomes in the world because of this. It has to come to terms with this reality. It has to have a polity that addresses this situation. It has to beg, borrow or steal technology to reduce its ever growing dependence on oil. And it has to invest intensively in R&D. It cannot be a peddler of second-hand technology, it must be the originator. For India to overcome the Maltusian conundrum, it has to have a pronged approach. A proclamation that India has arrived based solely on advances made in limited sectors, is premature to say the least. As an Indian I sincerely hope that India has a linear growth progression, I really do. Elisabeth --- --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mario > Ah! So there are impediments in India's way to > imminent super economic > status. This is what I kept saying and you were so > dismissive. Have you > woken up? > Cornel > - Original Message - > From: "Mario Goveia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" > > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 12:26 AM > Subject: Re: [Goanet] India gobbling the world > > > > --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Hi Gilbert, > >> As you know, I have felt some scepticism about > >> India's rapid growth to super economic status in > >> the imminent future but I dearly hope it is true > >> and that we will not be disappointed. > >> > > Mario observes: > >> > > India's rapid economic growth can be plainly seen > by > > anyone open to the facts. What is lagging in > India > > march towards super-power status is corresponding > > growth in the transportation and communications > > infrastructure, and most sadly in the area of > civic > > sense, due to a perplexing lack of civic respect > for > > rules and regulations and for others, particularly > > strangers. > >> > > > > _ > > Do not post admin requests to the list. > > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > > > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Theist v/s atheist?
Dear Mario, I am assuming that you are using the second example to prove that the first assumption is incorrect. Hence, proving once in for all that science is not to be trusted. This is the same type of rationalisation that Conservatives use to prove that evolution is a myth. Monkey's bottom red, man's bottom not red. Hence man could not have evolved from monkey. The Bible on the other hand, gives a very accurate account of creation. Six days and counting. Elisabeth -- > Let's see if I can give you an example of true > knowledge that even you, who is so highly schooled > that everything is relative, will be able to > understand. > > > How about the true scientific knowledge that a > properly designed object if moving above a certain > speed, can be made to rise up off the ground and > stay > up as long as it has enough fuel to maintain it's > speed? > > > Or, how about the true scientific knowledge that if > one jumps off a tall building, one will fall to the > ground and die? Those who would "... be pressed > very > hard to refer to anything in science as "true > knowledge." should try it sometime :-)) > > > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Talibanisation of Goa.
Dear Preetam, Thank you for posting this article. I too read it and then lost the link, and tried unsuccessfully to retrieve it. I find it totally abhorrent that girls are being made to wear the Salwar Kameez as a school uniform in Goa. In the article, it stated that the Salwar Kameez would be more suitable for sports and other physical activities. Oh really? Have the education authorities in Goa tried to do physical exercise dressed in a Salwar Kameez? Have they tried to run a marathon, jump hurdles, play football in a Salwar Kammeez? I can well imagine girls who desperately want to excel in sports now being told that they will have to fully cover themselves, let their sweat trap in these garments giving them rash and other unfathomable diseases. I can imagine these and all girls of school going age, ever so subtlety being discouraged and dissuaded from assuming that they are equal to men. What is going on in Goa? Are we taking 10 steps backwards in every direction? I am not only ashamed, I am actually terrified for Goa. Elisabeth --- --- Preetam Raikar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Recently, I was astonished to read an article on the > local Goan english > newspaper on the Higher Secondary Schools change of > uniform to Salwar Kameez. > I request the Eduacational authorithies not to > strictly impose the dress code > to Salwar Kameez. Its the full right of the > students to wear dresses, skirts > or whatever they like, so long as they don't breach > the moral standards. The > subtle ideas of this Salwar Kameez idealogy is the > 'outsider' influence that > is now threathening the very social fabric of the > native Goans. Today no > skirts, tommorow no Jeans. > > Preetam Raikar > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
Dear Cornel, With all due respect (of which I have ample for you), the analogy is a spurious one and undeserving of Gilbert's post. The US is grappling with an immigration problem and there is much debate about this. There are an estimated 20 million illegal immigrants from Latin America currently in the US. This is almost the population of an European country. I am not liberal enough to believe that such illegality should be pardoned by way of amnesty, nor am I Republican enough to believe that they provide much needed labour in America, to "do the jobs Americans won't do". Unmitigated mass migration of people impacts the socioeconomics of the society they infringe upon, be it in Goa or be in America. While I am all for regulated immigration, having been a second-generation beneficiary of it, I am not at all for illegal migration. And fellow posters, please don't write to me about how migration into Goa is not illegal. That is another post altogether. Elisabeth --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Gilbert > Just one small point re your "Why are the world > economists (who were in > favour of WTO and NAFTA) not stepping forward to > come up with innovative > plans to create jobs in Mexico to keep the > indigenous workforce in their > native land?" > > Could the same have been said about Indian doctors > who rushed to migrate to > the USA? Just asking? > Cornel __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goan Taliban?/response to Mario
Dear Mario, I am glad to hear that you have never felt ashamed. I on the other hand frequently feel ashamed about many things in life. For instance I am ashamed I inherited my father's mustache and have to spend a lot of money on tending to it every month. Thank God, there were many people in S.Africa that felt ashamed of apartheid. Thank God there were many people in America who in the 1960s felt ashamed that civil rights were being denied to blacks. Being ashamed, on balance is a good thing because it forces you to take action. Elisabeth -- > Mario replies: > > > Elisabeth, > It was not your "demise" I was referring to but your > welcome return to the Goan fold, which I was > concerned > you had left due to all that accumulated shame you > were expressing that seemed to have finally boiled > over due to Goa giving in to the extreme local ire > against The DaVinci Code :-)) > > > BTW, when it comes to my very ethnicity as an Indian > and a Goan, I choose never to be "ashamed". Often > exasperated, irritated, confounded, upset, PO'd, > disappointed, but, on balance, never ashamed. > > > Actually, on balance, pretty proud. > > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
Dear Gilbert, This is a good post but response to it maybe limited. I don't know how many Goans are based in the US on this forum and of those how many are closely following the immigration debate. I disagree with you about the Dubai Ports deal. It was not economics or security that kept that deal from taking place. It was good old fashioned prejudice and anti-Arab racism. Having grown up in Dubai, I know exactly how Dubai Arabs think. They detest fundamentalist groups and will have nothing to do with them. Unfortunately, today all Arabs and infact Muslims are lumped together in the US. There is no room or tolerance for nuance. Elisabeth -- --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The "Goa importing poverty" thread evolved in a very > enlightening and civil manner into market economies. > I thank both Elizabeth and Mario for keeping it > intellectual. Yet both (and the rest of us) would > agree that anything good (policies, regulations, > laws) left to itself and taken to its extreme by > vested interest is bad. The issue is how does > society prevent the abuse of a "good thing"? And > how do we (society or govt.) address important > issues rather that create short-term and > short-sighted solutions to more fundamental > problems. > > Here are some thoughts: > 1. Should "Social Security" for Seniors relieve the > children from being primarily responsible for the > well-being of their parents? It should not. But yet > is does all too often. This includes the Senior > Citizens not wanting to be dependent on their > children. > > 2. The issue of Dubai Ports Deal was a security > issue. Yet security is the responsibility of the > Govt. / Coast Guard and not of a private company - > American or foreign. The intellectual issue here > is: Why are there no American companies competing > for the tender to manage and operate the ports? > > 3. The illegal immigration discussion is also > miss-directed. Why are the world economists (who > were in favor of WTO and NAFTA) not stepping > forward to come up with innovative plans to create > jobs in Mexico to keep the indigenous workforce in > their native land? It is my understanding that the > major cause for sharply rising unemployment in > Mexico is the undermining of their agriculture with > import of cheap corn and other agricultural > products. It is like the USA on manufactured > products! Its good if it is cheap, but bad if it > creates unemployment. Unfortunately neither the > academics nor the major and multi-national > corporations have stepped to the plate to develop > innovative solutions to these worldwide problems. > > 4. In economic terms, is not human labor and talent > (including brain power) to some extent a resource - > and thus an exportable / renewable commodity? So in > a "free trade system", why / how would one restrict > human movement across boundaries be it in Goa or > USA, EU, Canada or Australia? Population migration > is a NATURAL PHENOMENON and has occurred since the > time Man first migrated out of Africa 100,000 years > ago. > Kind Regards, GL > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goan Taliban?/to Helga
Helga, I am becoming a great fan of yours. You tell it like it is. We need more women on this forum. Hurrah for women. Elisabeth --- HELGA GOMES <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Why? I am ashamed too. This is not a 'I Look at Goa > through UV glasses' > forum. Here is a list du jour of I Am Ashamed Items > and I am Proud Items. > I am Ashamed of: > 1) The mindless sheep who flocked to the Inox > theater not to view a mere > Hollywood movie and then critique it but to stop it > from being screened. > Maybe that way no one can ask them for their opinion > and thus expose their > ignorance to the Bible, Christianity and Tom Hanks' > hair. > 2) The people who did nothing about protecting the > safety of children of the > Nerul School so a boulder nearly crushed them. > 3) The carnage on the streets - 3 bikes accidents > today > > I am proud of: > 1) The stellar performance of Ralph Silva at the IIT > entrance examinations > 2) The young man who bagged the Bill and Melinda > Gates Foundation > scholarship to study the environment. > 3) The efforts of the people of the city of Vasco to > Go Green. > > Helga > > > > > Elisabeth > --- > Dear Lisa, > > If you truly ashamed of being a Goan in that case > please stay out of Goans > public forum. > > Seja uma senhora boa > > Thanks, > > Francis > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goan Taliban?/response to Mario
Dear Mario, To slightly misquote Mark Twain, rumours of my demise have been exaggerated. It was my laptop that had met with a sorry end; am armed with a new one. Anyway, good to see you in top form. Elisabeth - --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Elisabeth, > Welcome back :-)) I guess you can take the Goan out > of Goa, but you cannot take Goa out of the Goan :-)) > > > Now about that white picket fence...hurts me to even > think about it :-)) > > > Mario __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
RE: [Goanet] Goan Taliban?
Actually Kevin, it's fair play. Afterall, that's what a democracy is. That's the reason, so many stalwart Goans risked their life and limb, so we can could be freed from the shackles of colonialism and become a democratic state. Felly/Francis/Frankie?Hankie/Pankie, is free to say what he wants. I hope he would also allow the Elisabeths and Dan Browns of this world to say what they want. Being ashamed to be Goan in this instance does not make me any less Goan. I know many Germans who were thoroughly ashamed of Hitler. That didn't make them any less German. Democracy usually bestows rights, privileges and powers, it does not take them away. Elisabeth -- --- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Felly/Frankie, > > This admonition is totally uncalled for on a public > Goan forum. Elisabeth > eloquently states what many of us only have the > courage to think (ie. those > of us who do THINK). > > I have publicly renounced the trappings of faith in > a supernatural being > and have attracted my fair share of fundamentalist > cursing. I hope I will > not be the next target of your 'moderation' of this > "Goan" forum. > > Kevin Saldanha, > Mississauga, ON. > > -- > Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 13:03:06 +0800 > From: "Felicio Fernandes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Dear Lisa, > > If you truly ashamed of being a Goan in that case > please stay out of Goans > public forum. > > Seja uma senhora boa > > Thanks, > > Francis > > > > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goan Taliban?
Dear Francis, Thank you for the advice. I maybe ashamed to be Goan on account of the Da Vinci Code debacle but I am still a Goan and there are still Goans in Goa and in diaspora, that make me proud to call myself a Goan. No doubt, the Da Vinci episode will soon be forgotten but something very precious will have been lost. Our reputation as being progressive, tolerant and democratic. Elisabeth --- --- Felicio Fernandes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Today, I hang my head in shame as we have proved to > the rest of India that we are as intolerant as the > RSS > and that we are as capable of stoking religious > sentiment for political gain as the BJP. I am truly > ashamed of being a Goan. I am ashamed of belonging > to > that last bastion of the Congress stronghold known > as > Salcette, Goa and most of all I am ashamed of being > known as a Catholic. > > Elisabeth > --- > Dear Lisa, > > If you truly ashamed of being a Goan in that case > please stay out of Goans public forum. > > Seja uma senhora boa > > Thanks, > > Francis > > -- > India.com free e-mail - www.india.com. > Check out our value-added Premium features, such as > an extra 20MB for mail storage, POP3, e-mail > forwarding, and ads-free mailboxes! > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goan Taliban?
Well said Helga! Elisabeth - --- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Good job Cecil.Yes we now have the dubious honor of > being one of the few > regions in the world to ban the Da Vinci Code. I say > few because I have > excluded the Taliban, the Wahabi mullahs from Saudi > Arabia but maybe I > shouldnt? What a fine moment for Churchill Alemao > and his supporters! As > Maria Aurora Couto pointed out we have arrived - > straight into the Dark > Ages and the rollicking times of the Inquisition. In > the meantime Joel's > Clippings report that a boulder came rolling into > the Nerul School and this > year English medium schools are to open without > government grants. While > the rest of the world lauds Indians for their > emphasis on education which > has been a huge factor in our economic growth, some > of our Goan Catholic > leaders have chosen zealotry as a means to get us on > the map! So why did > the print version of Da Vinci code not create the > same furor that the movie > has? Maybe because our leaders can't or won't read > and neither will their > 'disciples'? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Theist v/s atheist?
Dear Mario, Morality does not need the compass of religion to guide it. It is inherent. Frazer in the Golden Bough, wonderfully details how societies living in isolation of each other invariably reach the same conclusion. Pyramids for example are to be found from Central America (Aztec and Mayan) to the Middle East (Egypt), without there being any trade link between these civilisations. Whether this inherent morality is to be defined as "God's invisible hand guiding us" or whether it is just the evolutionary progression of man's intelligence is a matter of debate. But certainly whether one is a theist or an atheist, we have long past the point where we need a codified book to provide us with "checks and balances". Elisabeth -- > What I have asserted, as an example, is that "my > imaginary friend" and all his followers with the > collected wisdom of thousands of years have > developed > a rock-solid moral compass - regardless of Santosh's > baseless assertions to the contrary - and > collectively > ensure a certain level of checks and balances on our > morality. Membership in such a morally based group, > which is voluntary, means one has signed on to the > program, and is willing to abide by the rules, to > the > best of one's ability. > > > On the other hand the unorganized individual > atheist, > with no moral friend real or imaginary, and no > membership in any morally based group, has only a > biased, self-serving moral compass, assuming he or > she > has a moral compass, and the results are whatever > they > say they are, with only civil and criminal law as a > controlling consequence. > > > Where there is overlap, the unorganized individuals > will be just as good as most members of the morally > based group. > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Tomorrow is 666
End times Gilbert? We can't even tell the end-times for most American daytime TV soaps. Some of them have been going on for an eternity. :) Elisabeth --- --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > To those who are superstitious and belive in the > > End-Times, the number 666 is ominous. > > Tomorrow is that date on the calendar. > > Kind Regards, GL > > > Mario responds: > > > End-times? Bite your tongue, Gilbert! I have plans > for next weekend :-)) > > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goan Taliban?
Today, I hang my head in shame as we have proved to the rest of India that we are as intolerant as the RSS and that we are as capable of stoking religious sentiment for political gain as the BJP. I am truly ashamed of being a Goan. I am ashamed of belonging to that last bastion of the Congress stronghold known as Salcette, Goa and most of all I am ashamed of being known as a Catholic. Elisabeth --- --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Cecil > Thank you for a very well written article on the > ridiculous situation re the > banning of the Da Vinci Code film in Goa. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Theist v/s atheist?
I love reading all the theist v/s atheists posts on this forum. When Christians, Jews or Muslims extol the virtues of their respective religions over each other's, what they are really saying is "my imaginary friend is better than yours". Now that the theists and atheists are at it, I presume what the theists are trying to say is "I'm better than you because I have an imaginary friend and you don't", and the atheist are trying to say "please see a doctor about your imaginary friend" :) I like sitting on white picket fences. Elisabeth --- --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 11:29:34 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > The difference in my opinion is one of checks and > > balances. For example, Christians have a > rock-solid > > "Golden Rule" > > > --- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote: > > > > The Golden Rule or the ethic of reciprocity is > > found in the scriptures of nearly every religion. > > It is often regarded as the most concise and > general > > principle of ethics. It is a condensation in one > > principle of all longer lists of ordinances such > as > > the Decalogue. > > http://origin.org/ucs/ws/theme015.cfm > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
Dear Mervyn, I do not create disparities, I just report on them. To liken situations and drawn analogies to Nazi Germany is simplistic. Elisabeth - > Elisabeth, > While you have some great points in the above, I > find > it troubling that you feel any immigrant has > "cultural > poverty." That sounds positively Hitlerish. > > > If we don't address these issues now, what we will > > have is a sort of social apartheid. Two societies > > living in parallel worlds. And Goa is not immune > to > > becoming just another Soweto. > > There will always be parallel societies in any > community. In Toronto for example where a child has > to > attend the school nearest his/her residence, some > kids > arrive at school hungry and have nothing to eat the > entire day. Other kids in the same class are grossly > obese. > > Lastly, Soweto did not evolve into a "black > township." > It was created just to keep black Africans from > living/mixing with others. > > Mervyn3.0 > > > > > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, Your argument that there are economies in this world that follow the principles of laissez-faire in the absolute is bordering on the comical. Even the US, with perhaps the most liberal economy has safe-guards in place that placate the conscience, social or otherwise. To mention a few, the minimum wage, tax relief and subsidies for agriculture (major WTO issue), tax relief for companies who outsource work overseas (a major bone of contention in the US), the recent ruckus over Dubai Ports Authority taking over the management of a few US Ports. Come on Mario, everything in life is regulated, if not by brute force, as in a command economy, than certainly by sheer dint of political connivance, as in a "free-market" economy. Incidentally, there is nothing incompatible about being a proponent of a "free-market" economy with a social conscience, just as there is nothing incongruous about being an atheiest or agnostic with a moral compass. Elisabeth Mario writes: > No need to "argue". Just look at the record. The > facts are there for all to see. India in economics, > before liberalization, and after. China in > economics, > likewise. The old Soviet Union countries, before > and > after. The stagnant major European countries like > France and Germany with "social consciences". > Practically all the African countries, which have > their own version of a "social conscience", except > South Africa. > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, I didn't want to embark on a US related topic since I understand that they are banned on Goanet but I was curious to know which side of that debate you fall on. Elisabeth - > > > Mario observes: > > > Elisabeth, > > > What you have described above is the "official" or > legal system in the US. > > > However, the US is right now in the middle of a > furious national debate on what to do about the > approx. one million illegal immigrants every month > that risk their very lives to sneak into the country > to work and fill their empty bellies, leading to > estimates of between 12 and 15 MILLION illegal > immigrants that have accumulated in the US over the > years, many using forged documents. > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, Lest you think I have forgotten about your post. I had merely put it aside to respond at leisure :)) I too am a free-market proponent and as such believe that micro-managing economies is an exercise in futility. However, we've learnt through history free-markets cannot be allowed to reign without a social conscience. If this persists, what we get are neo-feudal societies, where one group grows more powerful at the expense of another. We can argue the economics of this at length, and we won't arrive at any conclusion. I'd like to invite debate on the social impact of such mass migration. No doubt, it will change the demographics of Goa. Is such a change welcome? Is it accepted because "there is nothing to be done". We have to learn lessons from Mumbai and Bangalore, where Marathas and Kannadigas are now in the minority, a small voice unheard in their own politics. Mumbai as we all know is a city drowning in urban poverty despite being the commercial capital of India. Is this what we want for Goa? Or is there a way to systematically go about insisting on certain things; like proper housing for migrants instead of sprawling slums on communidade land, insist that they learn Konkanni as their language, insist that their children are schooled and not roaming the streets as beggars and urchins plying services for pedophiles, insist that the culture poverty that they bring with them is reconditioned. These are the hard questions for Goans living in Goa to answer. If we don't address these issues now, what we will have is a sort of social apartheid. Two societies living in parallel worlds. And Goa is not immune to becoming just another Soweto. Elisabeth > When politicians and government bureaucrats make > micro-economic supply and demand decisions it always > makes matters worse, if not for the specific sector > being "helped", then certainly for the rest of the > population, in terms of price levels and supply > allocations, which then have a negative ripple > effect > on the entire local economy. > > > No bureaucrat anywhere has found a way to > efficiently > allocate resources of either labor or material. > Such > extreme socialism is disappearing around the world > after trying for decades, leaving extreme socialism > only in dictatorships, in countries with God-given > natural resources currently in demand, or in > relatively small economies. > > > Also, I don't think you can compare Goa, a state, > with > entire countries. Most, if not all, of the empty > bellies you speak of are coming to Goa from other > states in India. > > > The conclusion has to be that business owners in Goa > cannot find local Goans to do the same quantity and > quality of work for the same wages, in spite of a > natural preference for locals for reasons of > language > and communications, the lifeblood of a business. > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: Goa importing poverty ?
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Vivian, In your haste to argue the point, you've made it personal. Second of all you've assumed certain things about me which are not true. I don't understand why debates of this nature always have to end up by taking potshots at those holding an opposing view. Be that as it may, I am glad to hear from a Goan living in Goa with some experience in this field. Sharing of these experiences can change our perception of what is ground reality. Thank you, Elisabeth --- > We can bemoan the fact that we Goans are becoming a > minority in our own land, > I can do that since I actually live in Goa most of > the year. But why are > people who have left Goa for good and settled in > foreign lands bemoaning this > fact ? Nature abhors a vacuum, and the vacuum you > have left behind by your > departure is being filled by people from other > States and other countries. That is life. Accept > it or do something about > it. Dont just blow hot air. > > Vivian A. D'Souza > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mervyn3.0, 1. Canada, Australia and New Zealand have a point system that monitors that just the right calibre of people get in. 2. The US has a visa system, followed by the green card waiting period, that ensures that only specific category of people will enter the US and be allowed to work. There are other categories of visas that do not allow people to work because American labour is plentiful in those fields. 3. The Gulf and SE Asian countries all operate "guest worker" programmes manipulating quotas and visas depending on their requirements. They also have very active programmes in place that ensure indigenous population will be given preference over others in jobs. Elisabeth --- > Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In countries such as Canada, the Gulf, Singapore, > > influx is carefully controlled both in terms of > the > > quantity and quality that is taken in and steps > are > > put in place not to disadvantage the indigenous > > population. > > > > Elisabeth, > This one is truly strange. > I have lived in Canada for a dozen years and have > not > heard of any rule that allows one set of people an > advantage/disadvantage over another. > > Perhaps you could elaborate on what you are > referring > too? > > Mervyn3.0 > > > > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, You've raised exactly the points that need to be discussed in context with this issue. There are many countries that encourage immigration. Canada, the Gulf countries, the EU (in part) and even the US and Australia in the 70s and 80s. This is because they need the actual numbers to make up the workforce. Is there any evidence that there is a workforce shortage in Goa? If we are to assume that there is, than unemployment must be pegged at zero or near zero level. We know this is not the case. Migrant labour enters not just the unskilled labour category (although largely) but also the semi-skilled category such as electrical works, masonry, and in smaller but substantial numbers in the skilled category such as accounting and administration. In countries such as Canada, the Gulf, Singapore, influx is carefully controlled both in terms of the quantity and quality that is taken in and steps are put in place not to disadvantage the indigenous population. Such a privilege is not afforded to Goa. People will flow in because supply is plentiful. I don't have to go in depth and elaborate the economic consequences of a labour glut. Be that as it may, what worries me more is the social impact. Are immigrants/migrants just a benign influence on mainstream society without any tangible impact? The recent riots in France have taught us otherwise. The case for concern is more severe where the cultural gap is so wide that assimilation is a problem. Elisabeth --- > Mario observes: > > > Elizabeth, > Good points. It's time. What exactly do we do > next? > Unfortunately, I have no answers, only questions. > > > What exactly do we want the politicians to do? I'm > sure we can demand they address the atrocities of > prostitution, gambling, crime, violence and disease. > I > think that's the least a decent local government can > do. Let's not forget road accidents. But I > digress. > Back to the economic issues. > > > Are you suggesting a reverse-liberalization process? > > Do you know anyone willing to start a construction > company in Goa or build a hotel that pays more than > the prevailing wage rates? Isn't one person's view > of > poverty another person's survival, i.e. the busloads > of empty non-Goan bellies? Are these lesser persons > unworthy of our concern? What are all the Kunbi's > and > Gaudi's doing these days to fill their bellies? Can > we prevent the free flow of labor between the rest > of > India and Goa while simultaneously encouraging the > free flow of tourists and investors? Who decides > what > to build and where? > > > Where is that bottle of Aspirin? > > > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- The Pied Piper of the Goan Construction industry is doing a good job of luring India's empty bellied to Goa in busloads. At some point Goa has to accept that it is importing poverty and unfortunately poverty has a culture all of its own. The culture of poverty is homogeneous all over the world. Poverty is the not the benign wart made graceful by Bollywood movies. Poverty is ugly mired in prostitution, gambling, crime, violence and disease. And the unchecked flow of migrants into Goa brings with it a tidal wave of this culture. Why decry pedophiles from Western Europe? This game requires both demand and supply. If the supply is plentiful then the dregs of humanity will bid a path to our door. Most of these children are victims of their own parents compliance in this heinous act. Goans may lull themselves to sleep thinking that their own children are safe but the sad truth is once the willing are done with, the unwilling will become candy that must be had for the pedophiles. Goans may tell themselves that this workforce is needed to build much required infrastructure. The sad truth is, this workforce has displaced the traditional Kunbi and Gaudi by making the daily wage rate so negligible that it no longer feeds their belly. Goans may turn a blind eye when slums sprawl in their backyards, when rivers pollute with effluents, when hills collapse because trees have been felled without restraint, when pavements become the domain of hawkers, when prostitution dens become part of the neighbourhood, when crime becomes the norm rather than the exception? Isn't it time we had an honest discussion about the unchecked import of poverty into Goa? Isn't it time we held our politicians accountable? Isn't it time we found workable solutions that will not extinguish our way of life but rather strengthen it? Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Woman priest says Mass (2)
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- This is precisely the reason people have been embracing Dan Brown and fleeing from the Catholic Church, because it resists evolution. It is one thing to honour tradition, it is another to claim it as The Truth and The Way. Is there any virtue in barring women from attaining priesthood? Is there any virtue in enforcing celibacy on priests? Is there any justice in constantly referring to homosexuality as a perversion? Is there any virtue in condemning birth control, invitro-fertilisation, stem cell research and any other advancement that is deemed "not natural" by the Church? Our spirituality must go hand in hand with changes that are taking place in the world. It cannot exist in a vacuum detached from reality. Elisabeth -- > > > > Defiant female priest says Mass > > RENEGADE GROUP HOLDS SERVICES; DIOCESE SAYS > > SACRAMENTS INVALID > > By Kim Vo > > Mercury News > > The fledgling congregation gathered in a circle at > > Sunday Mass at Spartan Memorial Chapel to > > introduce themselves. A woman in a long, white > robe > > spoke first. > > > > ``My name is Victoria Rue,'' she said. ``And I am > a > > Roman Catholic woman priest.'' > > > Mario observes: > > > I have no problem with these people doing whatever > they please. However, it is delusional and a patent > falsehood for Victoria Rue to describe herself as a > "Roman Catholic woman priest" because this is simply > factually incorrect. > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] It's election time on GoaNet
Dear Cecil Pinto, Please keep your day job. Puns and Politics do not mix. In politics one has the shake hands in public and kiss b*tt in private. You strike me as being incapable of doing so, at least not without occasionally want to bite it. :)) Elisabeth -- Cecil wrote: > - People wanting to flirt with Elisabeth Carvalho > - People who suspect Elisabeth Carvalho is actually > Cecil Pinto __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Just curious
Dear Just Curious, We were all wishing Cecil, a happy anniversary in public because in today's world celebrating your 10th wedding anniversary is a rare occasions. Furthermore, in private some of us have put together a fund and mailed Beatrice a medal of honour:) Elisabeth - --- Anthony M Barreto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I must thank the gentleman who brought the 10th > wedding anniversary of Cecil and Beatrice to our > attention on goanet. > Cecil has two well known e-mail IDs and yet the > subsequent wishing on goanet that followed escapes > my > simple mind. > I am aware that curiosity killed a cat. But it is > also > true that curiosity is what gave us some incredible > modern inventions. Just for curiosity's sake, could > anyone of those who wished Mr and Mrs Pinto on > goanet > tell me why they preferred to make their personal > greetings on a public domain despite having his > personal mail? > Please, it's nothing beyond plain curiosity. > Tony Martin > > > ** > Anthony M Barreto aka Tony Martin > Freelance Writer and Author > Primrose > Galgibaga, Canacona, Goa -- 403728 > M: 9422390701 > R: 91-0832-2632012 > * > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Congrats to Beatrice and Cecil Pinto
many more years of marital bliss! elisabeth --- George Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Congratulations to Beatrice and Cecil Pinto who > celebrate their 10th wedding anniversary today. > Cecil has entertained us with his humourous posts > over the years. > > Please join me in wishing them many more years of > marital bliss. > > Regards, > George > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] I'm back!!!
Dear Gilbert, My daughter knocked my laptop off the table and I am now given restricted access to my husband's computer. As such my responses are going to be very brief out of compulsions beyond my control :) I honestly don't have the answers to your several questions but far from "giving advice to God", being an agnostic, I think my stance is one of humility. Being agnostic simply means absence of knowledge. The problem I have with organised religion and latter day theists is the unwillingness to move from one position. Their stance is always that they are in possession of total knowledge and anything new is not to be entertained or tolerated. Religion like all organisms needs to be in a constant state of evolution. It always has been, perhaps at times so glacial that it misses the human eye. But we cannot stop evolving. Why do we now embrace this idea that all that there is know has been made known to us? My stance is simply "I know nothing" and if I discover something from this position than that will be something I truly believe in. Not something that has been handed down to me and forced upon me. As for me cracking codes or deciphering cryptic paintings, well I have no credentials to do either. I am a femme de menage of the "I once won a letter to the editor contest" variety and I have no pretensions beyond that. What I do have are theories. Lots of them. One of them being PDD. :) Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] I'm back !!!
Dear Mario, I think it's futile at this point to debate the whole Monica Lewinsky affair but this much is for sure; Clinton was probably one of the greatest Presidents, America ever had. His understanding of geopolitical issues alone puts him in a league of his own. His legacy will be a man of sheer brilliance and charisma, despite Republican efforts to constantly tar his reputation. So like I said, at this point debate is redundant, he's already earned his place in history. The same cannot be said of Bush whose second term approval rating is lower than the temperature in my freezer. Elisabeth --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- Elisabeth Carvalho wrote: > > > > To me, the personal life of Jesus is as divorced > > from his message as Clinton's should have been > from > > his politics. > > > Mario wonders: > > > In my never humble opinion, if someone's personal > life > is deliberately "divorced" from their public life > interested observers would lose a major predictor of > the person's veracity and credibility. > > > Was it appropriate to "divorce" the "private" lives > of > the pedophiles from their "public" lives as priests, > enabling them to offend over and over again in new > locations with fresh prey? > > > Everything that Bill Clinton did in his public life > had been predicted by people who knew his previous > personal life, including bringing his "private" life > into his "public" life by conducting "private > business" in the workplace, during working hours > with > a junior employee, and then denying it all under > oath. > On the other hand, there are still people who > believe > everything he continues to say, in the absence of > any > correlation between what he has said and what he has > done in the past. > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: War and women
It's true that women can fight as dirty as men but I think the motivations are different. Men are ferociously competitive. As Genghis Khan said, "It is not sufficient that I succeed. Everyone else must fail". Women on the other hand stop at "I must succeed". Perhaps I'm looking at it with rose-tinted glasses and a slighly biased point of view. Elisabeth --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > George > Further to posts on Goanet, and just by way of a > small aside, Margaret > Thatcher was deemed, by some in the UK, to be the > only man in her cabinet at > the time of the Falklands war. > > Another point made by some bloke said that, "women's > continuing wars are in > the home i.e the expression and manifestation of > aggression inwards onto > the man of the house. Men's are channelled > externally for the above reason! > Regret I can't vouch for the authenticity of the > second saying. > Cornel > - Original Message - > From: "George Pinto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 9:01 PM > Subject: [Goanet] Re: War and women > > > > --- Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >> Which is why we'd have fewer wars if more women > were incharge. > > > > > > Golda Mier, Indira Gandhi, Margaret Thatcher all > took their nations to > > war. As a proportional > > percentage of women leaders, their war instincts > were no better than men. > > Sadly. > > > > Regards, > > George > > > > _ > > Do not post admin requests to the list. > > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > > > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] PDD
Hi Vivian, PDD cannot be contracted by women even with frequent contact. Thank goodness :)) Which is why we'd have fewer wars if more women were incharge. Afterall, we're not obsessed with proving that we've got the bigger heat-seeking missile :) Elisabeth --- Vivian D'Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thanks Elisabeth, now I finally know what ails me. > > > Vivian (full blooded "P" equipped male with an > acute case of PDD) > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] I have a theory about men!
No this is not the controversial topic I promised but in the interests of science and philosophy, this is far more important. As a disclaimer, I admit that this theory isn't based on a large population survey, nor is it validated by any other specific statistical tool. It is just based on empirical evidence as observed by me. Men suffer from PDD an acronym for Penile Deficit Disorder. Because they suffer from this ailment (and because those few men not suffering from it can no longer dress like Renaissance Man) they are forever trying to compensate for it by using various means of sublimation. For instance there is the PDD man who constantly cheats on his wife or significant other to prove to himself "what a man he is". There are others who owing to lack of such inclination or perhaps opportunity usually settle for buying the bigger car, the bigger house, the bigger plasma TV or the bigger tool box. There are still others, who not having such means, motive and opportunity have settled for engaging in long and futile discussions on the internet with other like-minded men also suffering from PDD. These battles bent on proving very minor points such as the correct source of links, the right comma in the second paragraph (which really no one but extreme PDD man reads), the offending word (which offends no one but terminal PDD man), etc, etc, ad infinitum. I'd like to say that I know of a cure for PDD but I don't. I understand extensive research has been carried out and a possible vaccine may become available circa the arrival of the next Haley's comet, which is also incidentally expected to hit the earth and end civilisation as we know it. Doubtless, PDD man will still be found on some other colonised planet talking to cacti and discussing the finer points of tequila distilling. Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] I'm back !!!
Hi Gilbert, How are you? How is the grandchild? Much has been said and written about Dan Brown and far more eloquently than I ever could. The only thing I would like to add is that Dan Brown is neither a historian nor a theologian. He's a novelist. Far more damning books have been written about Christ by the likes of Freke or Gandy. The reason the Church routinely dismisses them without so much as a second thought is because they never make it to the mainstream. They are the companions of lonely agnostics such as myself on a journey of self-discovery. To me, the personal life of Jesus is as divorced from his message as Clinton's should have been from his politics. If the historical Jesus was crucified, in all likelihood given the severity of Roman crucifixions, he died. If he died, his Resurrection is irrelevant. Being God, he wouldn't need to make petty points to human beings by chauvinistically resurrecting himself in any form. It is only the human mind unable to come to terms with its own mortality that yearns for postmortem assurances. If he lived, married and had children. That too is irrelevant but perhaps more beneficial to mankind. Only a man (or God) who has experienced the nagging of a good wife can truly understand the concept of hell! :)) Elisabeth --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Elisabeth, > > I am glad you found your thinking cap among all your > Khatli Potlis.:=)) > OK guys, now straighten up! Ms. Hutton is back.:=)) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] POLITICS, STATEMENTS FUEL DA VINCI HYSTERIA IN GOA
Churchill has not read the book simply because Churchill DOES NOT know how to read. Forget banning the Da Vinci Code, Goans should be banning people like Churchill entering politics. Elisabeth > - Original Message - > From: Pamela D'Mello > To: goanet@goanet.org > Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 8:39 AM > Subject: [Goanet] POLITICS, STATEMENTS FUEL DA VINCI > HYSTERIA IN GOA > > Panaji, May 19: Despite the clearance for the Da > Vinci Code's screening in > India, the controversy over its showing in Goa still > continues. South Goa MP > Churchill Alemao in a veiled threat on Friday said > "theatres and video > parlours showing and selling the movie would be > taking a big risk". > > "The people will not accept this film in Goa, and I > am a man of the people", > he told this newspaper, saying though that he had > neither read the book nor > watched the movie [NOR USED HIS LIMITED BRAINS]. > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] I'm back !!
Hi all, I'm back and missed you'll. I had over 300 mails in the inbox and looks like I missed some robust discussions. Dan Brown has been done to death, I see, so we shall have to start on something new and utterly, butterly controversial. I'm putting my thinking cap on!! :)) Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Excuse my absence
Hi all, Have been shifting these past few days. Am waiting to respond to all the diatribes ahem mail that awaits me :)) Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: John Mill a Conservative?
Mario, How long did you stay up last night to type all this up? :) If I was your wife, I'd kick you in your conservative pants :)) Elisabeth -- --- Mario Goveia wrote: > > > This is a "well known fact" only among modern > political liberals, who continue to promote the > siren > song of failed socialist policies and cast > aspersions > on conservatives to hide their failures. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] John Mill a Conservative?
Dear Mario, It's a well-known fact that US Conservatives try to claim as their own, heros that most certainly don't belong to them. They do this by adding words like compassionate and modern in front of the word Conservative. But to claim John Mill as one of their own is stretching the truth a bit too far. I don't claim to know John Mill's writing in any measure of depth. Infact, I just knew that one quote from him. Much like you, I googled him and read about him. John Mill was an acclaimed liberal thinker of him time. He hated conservatives and any form of conservatism. As per your reference to his economic philosophy, since when was being "laissez-faire", a conservative monopoly? Infact, the word liberal in its earlier connotations referred to "liberal" economists, who advocated minimal government interference in capitalist ventures. Again it is only in the US, where liberals are associated with the Democratic party; that one associates liberals with trade unions and other forms of government contrivance. In India for instance both the Congress and the BJP are for the "liberalisation" of the economy. You certainly wouldn't call the BJP or the Congress liberals in other spheres of their politics. Infact some of India's liberal thinkers come from the Communist party. Definitions are often skewed but this much I know that John Mill would have his stomach churned if he were in anyway associated with the US connotation of the word. The Conservative Republican in the US, in my opinion, singlehandedly will set American back a few decades in terms of its thinking, ideology and not to mention its geopolitics. And John Mill would have had nothing to do with them. Elisabeth --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have no idea if John Mill really said what > Elisabeth > says he said, but on the off chance that readers may > mistake John Mill for a modern political liberal, > the > following are some encyclopedic excerpts to show > that > John Mill was in every sense a modern political > conservative-libertarian in the mold of Ronald > Reagan: > > > 1. In the following year he was introduced to > political economy and studied Adam Smith and David > Ricardo with his father--ultimately completing their > classical economic view of factors of production. > > > 2. One foundational book on the concept of liberty > was > "On Liberty", about the nature and limits of the > power > which can be legitimately exercised by society over > the individual. > > > 3. Mill's main economic philosophy was one of > laissez > faire. > > > 4. Many cadets at the U.S Air Force Academy best > remember him for the following quotation, which is > required memorization for all fourthclassmen. "War > is > an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The > decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic > feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is > much > worse. The person who has nothing for which he is > willing to fight, nothing which is more important > than > his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and > has no chance of being free unless made and kept so > by > the exertions of better men than himself." > > > Mario. > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
In 1633, the Pope imprisoned an innocent man and asked him to recant a certain hypothesis. The man spent the rest of his life under house-arrest. His name was Galileo and his assertion was simple. That the earth revolved round the sun. The Church at the time believed that the earth was the central planet and everything else revolved around it. I can well imagine living in 1633. The hullabaloo, Galileo must have created. How the elite, the intelligentsia, the theologians, the scribes, the bards, the scientists of the day, must have huddled over unleavened bread and bitter coffee, discussing and debating Galileo. Some talking about rallies and other ways to censure Galileo. Others afraid to contemplate what might be plausible. Afraid because the spectre of the Church by way of the Inquisition was everywhere. And one wrong word could mean years of prison and torture. We live in a different world today. We live in the world of Dan Brown and Timothy Freke. And because men like Galileo, came before us; men who preferred to live their days under house arrest rather than bow in submission, we live in a world where the Church cannot imprison us for deeds or thoughts of so-called heresy. I don't want to take away from the Church, the enormous contribution it has made to society's cultural, spiritual and philosophical evolution. But we cannot live under the yoke of "blind faith". Every hypothesis, however unpalatable it is to the Church has to be examined. No hypothesis is to be construed as a strike against the Church. There is a goal, above all else for mankind and that is the relentless pursuit of the truth. Every new grain of knowledge that comes our way must be examined and if it stands the test of truth in the cold light of day, it must become part of our consciousness. Because the only heresy is to live in denial of the truth. Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] BAN FILMS - PROTEST RALLY
This reminds me of the time, the Catholic Church decided to ban/boycott Carnivale in Goa. In addition to circulating various untruths, this bald-faced lie was part of the propaganda machine. That there was a substantial increase in abortions following Carnivale. For this to transpire, the following would have to occur: a) all the unwed girls in Goa would miraculously synchronise their ovulation with Carnival. b) all the young men would forget that such a thing as a condom exists. c) all courting couples who have otherwise shown restraint will throw caution to the winds and have unprotected sex only because it is carnivale. And lastly for this claim to be substantiated in the first place, someone would have to go around all the abortion clinics and make a survey, demanding to know whether they had sex at the Panjim Club Nationale Dance or the Margao Black and Red Dance. So much for wanting to ban fiction! Elisabeth --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Lavy > I regret I have to disagree strongly with your > position on banning films > like the Da Vinci Code. In a democracy, people > should be free to make up > their own minds about any films without outrageous > moves to censorship as > proposed by a minority. > Cornel > - Original Message - > From: "Edward Verdes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Goanet" > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 3:15 PM > Subject: [Goanet] BAN FILMS - PROTEST RALLY > > > - Original Message - > From: LAVY D'COSTA > To: SECULAR FORCE SECULAR FORCE > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 12:27 AM > Subject: BAN FILMS - PROTEST RALLY - FWD. MAIL TO > YOUR CONTACTS > > Dear Friends, > > Thank you for your immense support. We now move on > to the next stage of our > campaign that requires your participation. > > A Protest Rally on WEDNESDAY, MAY 10, 2006 AT 6.00 > P.M. AT THE CANOSSA > CONVENT SCHOOL GROUND, NEAR MAHIM RLY. STATION, > MAHIM (W), MUMBAI 400 016. > > It is your presence and that of your friends that > will send a message > across to the Government and Political Parties of > all hues that Christians > cannot be taken for granted. > > If we are present in large numbers at the Rally, we > will be able to impress > on the Govt. and its machinery to ban 'Tickle My > Funny Bone' and 'The Da > Vinci Code'. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] The next Gandhi: I'll make India better off than Britain
Dear Santosh, Although I agree with you in the main, I think the distinction between the "viewpoint" and the "person" who holds that viewpoint is a blurred and tenuous one. If one holds a certain belief, I think we extrapolate that the person acts in a certain manner consistent with the view he/she holds. As John Mill said "Conservatives are not necessarily stupid but most stupid people are conservative". :)) Elisabeth PS: No offence meant to conservatives, just using the quote to make my point. -- --- Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Elisabeth, > > > > Nonetheless, as you might have realized my question > was directed at the reflexive display of gratuitous > contempt for the person holding an opposing > viewpoint > > > Cheers, > > Santosh > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] RE: Enlightened Christian
Dear Nasci, Were you under the influence of the Holy Spirit when you wrote this or was some other spirit guiding you? Elisabeth --- Nasci Caldeira wrote: > Nasci adds: > > Besides the enlightenment in religious orientation > and wisdom as a Goan > (Indian) Christian, I am enlightened in 'Cultural > ways' too. I/we are truly > modern and multicultural. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] BAN FILMS - PROTEST RALLY
> Dear Edward, > Remember what happened in the garden of Eden? Eve > was > "banned" from eating the "fruit of knowledge". That > didn't stop her and I suspect rallies are not going > to > stop anyone who wants to, from watching the Da Vinci > code. > > A minority holding rallies will not affect the > profit-making machine that is Hollywood. Instead I > have another idea. If you disagree with the contents > of the film, don't buy a ticket, don't see the > movie, > don't read the book, don't purchase the DVD. There's > another expression for all this. It's called > "Freedom > of choice". Something else the Catholic Church may > not > be well acquainted with. > > And incase anyone thinks, I have something against > religion(s), I really don't. I just don't like them > being organised, institutionalised, monopolised and > politicised. > > Elisabeth > --- > > --- Edward Verdes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > - Original Message - > > From: LAVY D'COSTA > > To: SECULAR FORCE SECULAR FORCE > > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 12:27 AM > > Subject: BAN FILMS - PROTEST RALLY - FWD. MAIL TO > > YOUR CONTACTS > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > Thank you for your immense support. We now move on > > to the next stage of our > > campaign that requires your participation. > > > > A Protest Rally on WEDNESDAY, MAY 10, 2006 AT > 6.00 > > P.M. AT THE CANOSSA > > CONVENT SCHOOL GROUND, NEAR MAHIM RLY. STATION, > > MAHIM (W), MUMBAI 400 016. > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] The next Gandhi: I'll make India better off than Britain
I've often wondered whether I should dedicatedly further my own point of view in a debate because I feel it is the right view or whether I should be capable of holding two opposing points of view in my mind and appreciating both of them. I don't know the answer to that quandary. When I get the answer maybe I will be "enlightened" like Nasci. Then again, according to Nasci I am already "enlightened" because I can eat dukra mass and a masala dosa with equal ease, notwithstanding my occasional "outbursts", which can be controlled when need be by invoking the Holy Spirit. Elisabeth -- --- Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A question that arises quite frequently in internet > discussions nowadays is: Can one engage in a > rational > discourse without expressing varying degrees of > contempt for those who hold opposing points of view? > > Cheers, > > Santosh > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Why do we nod?
Dear Jerry, Have you ever heard the following jokes? Why do Jews breath? Why do African-Americans have chickens in their yard? I won't tell you the punchlines. Do you know why? Because they are racial slurs. In the same vein, this so-called "nodding" of the head is a racial slur propagated by Arabs and Brits alike in the Gulf region, to demean Indians and make them feel as if they are stupid. No doubt Indians, especially from the South use this particular head gesture but so do a lot of ethnic groups use gestures particular to their culture. Next time an Arab or any one makes references it, please don't be party to this insult. If you don't stand up for yourself as an Indian, no one else will. Elisabeth -- --- Jerry Fernandes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi all > > Just a curious question. Would appreciate if someone > can give an answer. > > Why do we people of sub continent especially India, > whenever we say YES or > NO, we shake our heads or Nod our heads? > > It came to my notice only when some Arab friends I > work with used to tease > me when I used to do that and say Why you Indians > shake your head so much? > > Is it because our country is famous for barath > Natyam dancing and somehow > unconsciously this action has become part of us? > > Pls someone can shed some answer to this query? > > Cheers > > Jerry Fernandes > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
RE: [Goanet] Re: Cardinal Dias/Nasci
Dear Nasci, I guess I can forget about that Burgundy down the Yarra then? :)) I'll just have to depend on that Dukra Mass, Mario is going to be buying me. One more "outburst" and Mario may make that aad mass. :)) Elisabeth --- --- Nasci Caldeira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Elisabeth, > > My my, you have surely shown that you need to be > blessed by the Holy Spirit! > To recieve His Blessing or more likely, 'to recieve > the Holy Spirit' all you > have to do is to surrender your 'evil' thoughts and > outbursts; and seek > forgiveness and His abundant Blessings will heal > you, and He shall come unto > you, and you will have been saved! If I was anywhere > near you, I surely > would try and heal you myself? You do need 'Healing' > very badly. Go for it; > do not feel shy. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: Cardinal Dias Deplores Anti-Christian Films
Dear Gabe, In life, one is bound to inadvertently insult someone or the other with their thoughts, views or writings. It's important to be loyal to your own values, principles and agendas and then, let the chips fall where they may. Unless you particularly dislike a poster, you are bound to find some commonality despite divergence of views. You may not agree with their politics but agree with their economics. You may not agree with their religious views but like their general life philosophy. Relationships are always dichotomous in nature. If they were not, they would be boring. I've been welcomed by both sides of the aisles and I hope the warmth lingers like a long summer day for some time to come. Elisabeth > > > RESPONSE: Madam, I am taken aback by your post but > more importantly by > the lack of response by the defender of > faith...perhaps he has > succumbed to your charms, or is seriously courting > you, for future > moral support reasons. Perhaps it is the writers he > has problems with > and not the content. He takes issue with certain > posters: George, > Santosh, Mervyn, Jose and Gabe. It seems that > content does not matter, > if presnted by the so called gentler sex! > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: goanet progesses as new voices are heard
Hi Eugene, Do jump in where angels fear to tread :) Your imput will be greatly appreciated. Elisabeth --- Eugene Correia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It's nice to hear new voices on goanet. Maybe a year > or more I lamented the absence of female voices > which > were once loud and clear. Oldtimers will remember > them, so I need not name them. > Elizabeth is a good replacement to those who have > now > become inactive. She gives back as much as she > takes. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: The debate on non-reservations
Mervyn3.0 I think you are confusing affirmative action with "jobs being reserved". Affirmative action requires a conscientious effort by the employer to diversify its work-group. To this end, the employer may have a plan drawn out as to how it will achieve this goal. Generally the "4/5 rule" applies to ensure that discrimination of minorities has not taken place and that each minority has been represented in the final selection, given the total applicant pool. Elisabeth > > > > Nice try, Mario. > Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US > are > reserved, by law, for only a section of the > popluation. > Mervyn3.0 > > > > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Crocodile burgurs, Vinicola wine & the Indian economy
Dear Cornel, Seems like you enjoyed your trip. I think the wine is bottled in plastic rather than glass probably because plastic is cheaper. You should have tried the croc. I've never had but have had alligator here in the US. It's sort of like chicken and with a little tartar sauce can be quite nice. I also agree with you that the prospect of India joining superpower status within the next few decades is a myth. Even with foreign investment and the multiplier effect in full force, it cannot generate enough ripples to bring 60% of the population out of poverty within a short span of time. Simultaneously unlike China, no concerted efforts are being made to curb population by either party. Even Goldman Sachs in their follow up to BRICs, make note of the fact that despite huge strides being made in the aggregate economy, personal incomes will be only a fraction of those enjoyed in the west. Increases in GDP of countries with such large population means little to the PCI. Also, the CPI in India, continuously puts a wrench in the corporate wheels of India by objecting to dismantling of PSUs, increases in foreign investment in vital sectors and its general dislike of anything be it investment or ideas imported from the West. We have to overhaul the political system itself by reducing the impact of regional politics if we want to cohesively impact national economics. And that's my morning dose of pontificating! Elisabeth - --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Nasci > Wouldn't a crocodile steak be better on the banks of > the Yarra? I only > discovered the availability of crocodile when asked > if I wanted it in my > burger in Cairns. I was as surprised as when offered > horse in Belgium once. > I did eat the horse but not the croc! > Cornel > PS The plastic bottles for wine in Goa took my edge > off Vinicola recently. > Why plastic? > - Original Message - > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: Cardinal Dias Deplores Anti-Christian Films
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- I really love it when the Catholic Church talks about distortion of facts by "evil" people and how we should all pray for them. What about 2000 years of distortion by the Church. Let's talk about an "evil" Pope who made Mary Magdalene to be a prostitute when we now know that if the ministry of Jesus existed, she probably was a rich patron who played a dominant role. What about Gospels that existed alongside the four that we know off, like the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Judas which never saw the light of day because they didn't fit in with their theology. What about scrolls found at Nag Hamadi written by Gnostics, a sect of Christianity probably persecuted and driven to extinction by mainstream Christians of the time. What about centuries of manipulation of theology by Popes and Bishops and Cardinals that conveniently created Virgin births and Holy Spirits to explain away loopholes in the gospels. And when all else fails let's not forget "blind faith" for none shall be so bold as to put their doubting fingers into the palms of Christ and question the Catholic Church on issues, on theology or on history. Ofcourse, as Cardinal Dias states, "more things are wrought by prayer than the world can dream off", like tsunamis and earthquakes and genocides and famines. Let's not forget that "God has a plan for every natural disaster victim" because ofcourse there was something wrong with the original plan of him spending the rest of his life with his loved ones. The Catholic Church can easily put Mafia Dons to shame when it comes to spiritual extortion and Stalin had nothing on totalitarian regimes and towing the party line when compared to the Catholic Church. Enough! At least Dan Brown's novel is labeled fiction. What has the Church been pedaling all these years? Elisabeth --- Frederick Noronha wrote: - > Cardinal Dias Deplores Anti-Christian Films, > Launches Prayer Crusade _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: The debate on non-reservations - gone awry?
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- First of all, Mario citing a flaming liberal like Friedrick von Hayek is like the devil quoting the scripture:) and then both Fred and Mario kick Ayn Rand in the stomach. That's too much for a girl like me to take in one morning :)) Can you guys please wear your labels neat and nice, so I know what I'm dealing with :)) Elisabeth --- > Fred writes: > > > > Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and > The > > Virtues of Selfishness, then there's nothing here > > for you! > > > Mario observes: > > > It's not what there is for "me" that counts, but for > most of the people most of the time. Besides, I > favor > philosophers like Adam Smith, Friedrich Von Hayek, > Joseph Schumpeter and Milton Friedman, rather than a > hedonist libertine like Ayn Rand, who might evn fit > your characterisation of selfishness. > > > What you see as "selfishness", and its corollary > "greed", which are negative traits, leads you to > suggest that "selfless" and well-intentioned elites > know what's best for everyone else. That is the > essence of what the proponents you seem to favor > believe, and it is the fundamental flaw in their > belief and in the failure of their attempts to > "help" > those "less intelligent" than them. > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
RE: [Goanet] The debate on non-reservations
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Nasci, Is that Burgundy Australian? Make it a fine Californian Chardonnay and you have a date. Better still make it Vinicola Port Wine No. 5, served out of a plastic bottle :)) Elisabeth -- > > Now in a lighter vein; Elisabeth! I have become a > bit envious of your date > with Mario! In contrast I am offering you a > 'Chateaubriand Steak' (for two) > prepared personally 'medium rare' , with a bottle of > the finest 'Sparkling > Red Burgandy' on ice, to go with it! Life is GOOD on > the banks of the river > Yarra! And all I want is: Hah, Hah! Hummm Hummm! > jolly good company! Will > you? > > See Ya! > > Nasci Caldeira > Melbourne > Down Under. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
RE: [Goanet] The debate on non-reservations
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Nasci, While I understand your revulsion at practices, such as sati and the caste system, that are totally unacceptable in our modern context, I'm afraid the statements you make below, make your views a little bigoted and uninformed. You have used the terms culture and religion interchangeably. And I grant you that because ultimately religion becomes nothing more than a cultural badge. However, Indian culture/religion is not at all about worshiping animal deities. This is just a superficial understanding of the religion. Vedic scripture which dates back at least 5000 years talks about existential concepts which western philosophers would not ponder upon until much later. Sumerian or Canaanite mythology of the time, which became the basis of our Judaic-Christian religion, references nature and the many temperaments of nature. It rarely references or deals in details with the "soul". I wish for everyone to take an interest in other religions. Not as a spiritual journey but more as a journey into other people's cultural roots. I do agree with you Nasci that most religions, whether Muslim, Christian or Hindu have stopped evolving over time and the repercussions of this lack of evolution has become the niche-market of every fundamentalist. Our most profound thoughts seem to be behind us. Our philosophers and saints all dead or crucified. What we are left with today is loud rhetoric which is echoed in the name of God and self-righteousness. Elisabeth --- Nasci wrote: this dirty > Indian Culture which belongs to ancient times and > has yet to evolve modern, > and in practice is "EVIL"; this which degrades some > HUMAN BEINGS and at the > same time 'worships' animals and other weird > deities. The URL should be: > Worst Wicked Weird.Indianculture. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: DEAR AUNTY No. 2: WEEKLY HUMOR :-))
Dear Aunty You velly funny. I have problem. Don't know if suffering from mad cow disease or foot in mouth disease. How to find out? Elisabeth --- Francis Rodrigues wrote: > DEAR AUNTY No. 2: WEEKLY TOP 12 :-)) > __ > > 1. DEAR AUNTY, > Im Gulf air-hostess. All loves me. I have handbags > in Ye-man, Musket & Abu > Dubai. Everytime more romancing me. Too many > handbags, what to do ? Flossy. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: Voting rights for NRIs (one more time)
Dear Bosco, Living in the USA, sometimes one tends to miss out on actual news happening in India. Hence, I have been only partially informed about NRI voting rights. I inadvertently assumed the government was revisiting the old idea of giving PIOs (generically refered to as NRIs) voting rights. Upon further research I have discovered this: Nasci was right when he stated that the primary beneficiary of NRI voting rights was to be the Gulf Indians. To me talking about NRI voting rights was a bit confusing. My parents having been NRIs for 30 odd years fully exercise their right to vote now that they have returned to India. Their right to vote was never relinquished it had just relapsed. So, what we are talking about is keeping the NRI active on the electoral roles even though he is not in India and hence outside his constituency. I am still in the dark as to whether the said NRI will have to return to India to vote or whether polling booths will be set up in his country of residence. Knowing the Gulf states as well as I do, I know any elections of any sort, even if unrelated to their own politics, will not be welcome. Now, the question is entirely a different one. Should the Gulf NRI be more actively involved in the politics of his country? Well, why not. First of all he faithfully remits money back home. Secondly most of them will return home after they retire. And thirdly due to geographical proximity, he is well informed of the politics back home. The logistics of the whole affair will be burdensome but no doubt political parties see NRIs as votebanks to be wooed and any burden is worth it, if it means a vote at the ballot box. Thank you everyone for clarifying the subject matter, with much patience and perseverance :)) Elisabeth --- Bosco D'Mello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat Apr 29 21:27:24 PDT 2006, Elisabeth Carvalho > wrote: > > > Secondly I don't know if anyone read my original > post > > but I stated very clearly that the term NRIs has > lost > > its original and true meaning and has been loosely > > interpreted to mean every Indian or Person of > Indian > > Origin, who now resides outside of India. > > RESPONSE: Elisabeth, we did read your original post > of April 26/06. And what I > believe some of us are trying to convey is that the > term NRI is not and should > not be a loosely interpreted term for the purpose of > elections. An NRI is an > Indian citizen! > > You probably missed what the Goanet News Bytes of > April 25/06 clearly stated - > what the government is proposing to achieve by > tabling the The Representation > of the People (Amendment) Bill 2006. > > > The purpose of me initiating this debate was not > to discuss the > > current state of who is or is not eligible to > vote, but may be > > eligible to vote in the future. > > RESPONSE: It's quite likely you had the answers you > seeked in your first post > when you stated "NRIs, PIOs, expats are an apathetic > lot". The same applies to > NRI Goans. The apathy will carryover into the voting > patterns - They will not > vote!! Just like Goans/Indians back home who don't > exactly embrace the ballot > box come election time. And if they do vote, its for > the same people. I hope > people like Floriano and Goa Suraj meet better > success at the next hustings. > > Best - Bosco > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
RE: [Goanet] Voting rights for NRI Goans
There seems to be confusion not just on this forum but in general in India as well, as to what NRI voting rights entails. The following link may shed some light on the matter. http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060122/world.htm#2 One of the extracts from this article is as follows: The government cannot grant dual citizenship to NRIs. These people are Indian nationals and full citizens of India. They, therefore, do not need reassertion of their rights as nationals of India. In case any one of them ceases to be Indian national/citizen, he or she becomes a foreign national and, therefore is no longer an NRI( the Indian Income tax Departments description of Indians who are not taxable in India as they are liable to paying tax in another country). Hope this article sheds some light on the matter. This closes the topic for me. Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
RE: [Goanet] Voting rights for NRI Goans
Dear Paulo, I am sorry to blow a hole in your theory but I have infact always been and still am an NRI in the truest sense of the word. I may reside in the USA but I am an Indian citizen who pays my taxes every year and will return to India in the near future. There has never been any question about my voting rights. I have them, I have always had them and in all probability will enjoy them well into my dotage. Secondly I don't know if anyone read my original post but I stated very clearly that the term NRIs has lost its original and true meaning and has been loosely interpreted to mean every Indian or Person of Indian Origin, who now resides outside of India. The purpose of me initiating this debate was not to discuss the current state of who is or is not eligible to vote, but may be eligible to vote in the future. Unfortunately,instead of discussing the case, much like the bureaucrats in India we are still deciding on where to file the case typed in duplicate on carbon paper. Elisabeth --- Paulo Colaco Dias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mario might want to check again with the Indian > authorities. > > He and Elizabeth might think they are NRIs but in > reality they are not. > > Those who are not Indian Citizens cannot be NRIs. At > the most they are PIOs. > > Nasci Caldeira already posted an excellent > contribution that explains this > in detail so I do not have anything else to add. > > Well done Nasci. > > Best regards > Paulo > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: Review of the Review by the Reviewer (to Mario)
Mario done! I'll buy you a glass of feni at Georgie's bar if you promise to buy me a kilo of dukra mass at the tinto. :) Elisabeth --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > Edna wrote a book, which Pratap reviewed. Pratap > has > > every right to do that, just as we have every > right > > to question the legitimacy of his review. And the > > fact that instead of doing this, we Goans are > > fighting amongst ourselves about airline > > stewardesses and matters of trivia is indicative > > of our politics and our polity. > > > Mario adds: > > > I agree with your conclusions, and I did not > specifically have you in mind when I wrote "others". > > Let's all quit bickering, Goan-style, and just buy > the > book and review it for ourselves. We'll ask Edna to > donate a portion of her windfall revenues to the > home > for retired airline stewardesses, and make it a > win-win situation for all:-)) > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
RE: [Goanet] Voting rights for NRI Goans
Dear Nasci, I think you are mixing the issue of absentee voting ballots and that of NRI voting rights. Or perhaps I am getting it wrong? Maybe someone in India/Goa can illuminate us. >From what I understand of the situation, what the government wants to do is to bring into the electoral fold, all those Indian expats who are currently the citizens of countries such as USA, Canada, UK. Perhaps first becoming a dual citizen will be the mandatory requirement for voting. I don't know the criteria that will be set up to facilitate the voting process. The reason the Indian government, after turning a blind eye to the NRI (and I use the term in its looser meaning) population for years, suddenly discovered its love for them is upon learning that they can indeed make huge investments in India. Ofcourse quite a few of these capitalists wanting to make investments then made demands for more political power within the country. That is how this debate of NRI voting righs came into being. Which is why I wanted to discuss whether the interests of a few venture capitalists should warrant voting rights for an entire NRI population, most of whom in my opinion are quite apathetic to India and its polity - the hydra-headed monster. Elisabeth - --- Nasci Caldeira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mario, (Elisabeth and all others), > > I do know, what is right here! An NRI is an Indian > who is residing abroad > and stiil holds on to his/her Indian Passport and > Indian Citizenship, and > not interested in changing their Staus Quo, and may > or may not be liable for > taxation in India. (this taxation is dependent on > other factors) > > With reference to Elisabeth's last post on this, an > NRI who is 'ORDINARILY > NON RESIDENT' as per 'The Income Tax Act' of India, > is one who manages to > reside less than 180 days in India in any one > fianancial year; and for that > year only, such an NRI is not liable for I Tax; but > should the person exceed > the 180 days stay in India, then that person is > liable for tax on all of > his/her income for the financial year, irrespective > of where the income may > have been earned. Such a person does not also > forfeit his/her right of vote, > as and when they are present at the time of > elections, whether tax paying or > not. > > However, the Govt of India is trying to make sure > that such NRIs are > gauranteed this 'right of vote', and not be subject > to manipulation by the > Election Commisiion, thru adverse interference by > people like the communal > BJP wallahs and other manipulative people. > > This happened in Goa when the BJP and supporters > were ruling in Goa; A lot > of Goan voters who were not present at home at the > time of electoral lists > review, were struck off the rolls. This included > many a Goan working on > Ships and in Gulf Countries. The BJP wallahs > deliberately did this shameful > act, since they know that most people who are > working on ships and in Gulf > are not Hindu and hindutva inclined! This I feel is > the reason behind the > 'move' to give 'legal and proper' NRIs the vote, > unconditionally. > > A PIO is considered to be a person of Indian origin > who has taken/ acquired > citizenship of another country. Such persons are by > law not entitled to vote > in India, among other things. Only PIOs with > citizenship of other countries > are elligible for Dual Citizenship with India. That > is why the 'Dual > Citizenship' concept has been introduced, so as to > make PIOs feel at home > and invest/ spend in India and not have to apply and > pay for visas every > time, etc, at the same time swelling the coffers of > the Govt. of India > indirectly. Such PIOs with this type of Dual > Citizenship are however not > allowed to vote in India, or hold any Public Post or > acquire Agricultural > property, and this is rightly so. > > In respect of voting rights for NRIs as descrbed > earlier; I think the Govt. > should go one step further, and allow them 'POSTAL > VOTING' facility at the > time of elections in India, from their country of > temporary residence. This > is allowed and facilitated for Australian citizens > anywhere outside the > country. So also was the case recently with Iraqi > Citizens residing in > Australia on bridging visas, when they were allowed > to vote from Australia > in their Elections back in Iraq! > With regards! > > Nasci Caldeira > Melbourne. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
RE: [Goanet] Voting rights for NRI Goans
Dear Nasci, Thank you for the example of the Italian Govt. Whenever we come across information like this it expands the scope of our debate and allows us to take decisions with wider perception. However, a minor correction on the term NRI. You are right, it does mean Non-Resident Indian, in the purest sense of the term. It was a tax identity set up to deal with income ensuring from Non-Resident Indians. These NRIs, when the term first became popular in the Indian vernacular by the late 70s, comprised mostly of Gulf NRIs who remitted to their NRI and NRI(E) accounts. Technically speaking these NRIs never really lost their right to vote. If they kept their ration cards and other forms of identity valid, they could indeed return during elections and vote. The term now encompasses all Indians residing outside of India, including Indians who have acquired citizenship of other countries and second-generation PIOs. Hence, we are primarily taking about Indians in the US, Canada, Uk, Australia, and so forth. Here is a definition from Wikipedia: "A non-resident Indian (NRI) is an Indian citizen who has migrated to another country. Other terms with the same meaning are (somewhat self-deprecating in context) desis, overseas Indian and expatriate Indian. For tax and other official purpose the government of India considers any Indian national away from India for more than 180 days in a year an NRI. In common usage, this often includes Indian born individuals who have taken the citizenship of other countries." To me democracy is a vehicle of representation. If I was a Goan residing in Goa, I certainly would not want some second-generation expat who shows no signs of interest in the native country, having the right to vote. Will this right to vote, be pegged to any sort of commitment? Will it require some amount of residency or financial investment? If not, the right to vote will eventually end up being a vote for outdated loyalties and/or issues viewed through the prism of an expat's viewpoint, which may not be relevant to Goa/India's realities. Elisabeth -- --- Nasci Caldeira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Elisabeth, > > NRI is a Non Resident Indian, that is a person > holding an Indian Passport > and Citizenship, residing outside India. And in case > of NRIs in gulf and > other like countries these NRIs are not even PR that > is they are not > permanent Residents in the countries where they are > working as expatriates. > Hence they are for all purposes Indians working > abroad and come 'HOME to > India. As such they should have the 'Right of Vote' > in their respective > constituencies back home. Not knowing about certain > things like u say is no > criteria for 'No Vote'. It is the persons inherent > right to vote, > irrespective of other perceived qualities. > > This reminds me of what Nehru said in response to a > query from a Time > Correspondent, at the time of Goa's > Liberation/Invasion/ Annexation! When > the said journo said to Nehru: "most Goans he met in > Bombay were not in > favour of Nehru's impending action". To which Nehru > replied:"Most Goans in > Bombay are cooks and butlers". Do these poeple not > have the right to decide > or vote (n this case) > just because they are cooks and butlers?? I hope U > see the analogy. > > > A PIO on the other hand is a person of Indian > Origin, full or half; and this > person may or may not be an Indian Citizen; the > person may be a foreign (non > Indian) citizen either acquired thru immigration or > by birth. These persons > who are foreign citizens can never be allowed to > vote etc in India. That is > the natural law! > > For all of the above, I feel that all NRI's who are > not PR of foreign > countries shoiuld be allowed to vote, in their > respective constituencies in > India. > > I will bring to notice the news of the Italian Govt. > from this year allowing > Italian NRI's in Australia, not only to vote in > Italian Elections but also > to have their own Reps in both houses of the Italian > Parliament. These were > duly elected here in Australia by these NRI's and > are now sitting in the > Italian Parliament on behalf of the NRI's. I was > pleasently surprised; but > again that is true democracy in action. > > Nasci Caldeira > Melbourne. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: Review of the Review by the Reviewer
Dear Mario, By "others" I suspect you mean me. It's ok, I'm a big girl, I can take it. I didn't jump on any bandwagon nor should the reasons escape you, as I make them adequately clear in my post. Gilbert may have been amiss in accusing Avelino of writing the review, but what followed was also totally tangential i.e a) a protracted discussion on airline stewardesses and b)Gilbert's initial error. What, we as Goans didn't do was analyse the review by Pratap Mehta and see if it indeed it was a review or just the reviewer's own personal views projected as analysis of Edna's work. It does bother me, that a logical discourse of Pratap Mehta's review did not ensue. Not to belabour this post, since I would rather it die a natural death seeing that it has veered off course completely; but just to state one instance, Pratap Mehta writes this: "This claim is comforting to both fundamentalists and liberals: it is a way some fundamentalists can deny they really are so; and liberals can assert that they really understand what is going on." When Pratap makes this assertion, he is referencing an American definition of the word "liberal", no doubt a throwback to his Harvard days. This definition of the word, nor its juxtaposition to "fundamentalist" exists in the Indian context. I believe, what Gilbert was trying to say (before the Avelino "foot in the mouth" incident",) is how objective is Pratap's review of the work? Has he reviewed it in the context and climate that it is written in, has he reviewed the accuracy of her statements, her documentary? Or is he just imposing his own perceptions by way of "review". Edna wrote a book, which Pratap reviewed. Pratap has every right to do that, just as we have every right to question the legitimacy of his review. And the fact that instead of doing this, we Goans are fighting amongst ourselves about airline stewardesses and matters of trivia is indicative of our politics and our polity. Elisabeth - Mario wrote: > Then some others who had also not read the book > jumped > on the band-wagon, for reasons that escape me. > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Review of the Review by the Reviewer /Melinda Coutinho Powell
Hey Melinda, It's nice to have another woman on the forum. I hope you stick around. The testosterone here is a bit overwhelming at times. Fred Noronhna congratulating you on "weathering storms" has made me think of investing in a good umbrella. About the little fishes, you mean to say no matter what happens they all land up at Cecil Pinto's workshop? Elisabeth --- --- Melinda Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Elisabeth Carvalho worte" > I was ofcourse being flippant and resorting to > stereotype, when adding that one-liner. However > since > I was not making a personal dig at any one person, I > didn't seriously think it would offend anyone. > Again, > since it inadvertently did, I apologise. > > Hi Elisabeth, > > hey ,I wasnt really upset,just felt that I had to > speak up for the cause --I > still have a few loyalties left though I quit 13 > years ago. > It is very gracious of you to apologise,now I admire > you even more. > I enjoy reading yr inputs,keep it up. > > By the way,the rodents, fish,flora and fauna have > decided to apply for > Portuguese passports and migrate to cleaner > surroundings..If that option > fails,they are planning to go to Roland Martins > (GOACAN) Goa civic and > consumer forum for redressal.If that option also > fails,they are planning to > enlist Cecil Pinto's help(he used to run a Computer > Institute)and learn > typing and computer skills,so watch out .( A little > fishie told me so) > Regards, > Melinda > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Voting rights for NRI Goans
As a second generation NRI, the concept of NRI voting rights is of great interest to me. Firstly, the term NRI has been generally misused. NRI, is not a group of people. The term was primarily a banking concept, first introduced to accommodate those intrepid souls that made their way to the Arabian desert. Their remittances to India were banked under non-taxable, Non-Resident Indian or Non-Resident Indian (External) accounts with a massive 12-15% interest rate, to act as incentive. In the course of time and evolution, the term has almost acquired an ethnicity of its own. It's not uncommon to come across ads, that want NRI grooms, as if it was a certain section of society with definable traits and attributes. I have no qualms about NRIs being given voting rights but to what end? NRIs, PIOs, expats are an apathetic lot. I should know. Most of my family is now in diaspora and much of it second-generation, whose only link to Goa, is the occasional trip back home to see the ancestral house, check out if Auty Teodoline really does sport a mustache and how Uncle Joe talks about Lisboa with such reverence. Throw in a cruise down the Mondovi river, a lunch out at Martin's corner and a drive through hawker-invested Calangute for souvenirs and, they are ready for the trip back home having "discovered their roots". I think Goans living abroad have very little knowledge and much less interest in the actual problems facing the people and the polity. They are immersed in their own daily battles, as they should be. I don't know if they can truly represent the hopes and aspirations of Goans living in Goa. I don't know if we should translate western sensibilities or solutions to situations that are indigenously Goan. This is my concern. That of apathy. That we will be giving power to an apathetic lot and power vested in such a section of society can be gravely misused. Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Review of the Review By the Reviewer/ Melinda Coutinho Powell
Dear Melinda Powell, I apologise sincerely for having upset the airline world. I too spent 6 years of my life in the travel industry at the tail-end of poor jokes and disrespect. I know how difficult the entire hospitality industry is, from hotels to airlines to any ground operations. I was ofcourse being flippant and resorting to stereotype, when adding that one-liner. However since I was not making a personal dig at any one person, I didn't seriously think it would offend anyone. Again, since it inadvertently did, I apologise. Having said that, in earlier posts I think I have also made off-hand remarks about mackerels, sardines and Goan rats. My sincere apologies to all the rodents, fish, flora and fauna of Goa. You may not be able to represent yourself on Goannet on account of your poor typing skills, but I shall bear in mind that you maybe deeply offended by my post and apologise herewith. Elisabeth PS: Please note the word apologise has been repeated 15 times in above post. -- > Dear Gilbert, > > We may have gone a bit off topic here,but what may > be a minor comment to you > is a major one to me. > > > I spent fifteen years of my life ,working on > aeroplanes.If one looks past > the glamour,it is hard work and ,jet lag. > > I will refrain from commenting abt "Holy Warriors" > or the reviews,since I > havent read the book. > > Whether it is a one liner or lengthy discourse,one > has to be responsible for > what one posts. > If the article in question was humourous,one could > laugh it off.But right in > the middle of a serious post,if there is a "dig" > thrown in,there are bound > to be reactions. > > Melinda Coutinho Powell > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
RE: [Goanet] RE: Review of the Review by the Reviewer
Dear Avelino, I've already eaten crow and humble pie and acknowledged that Pratap Mehta is indeed an author of note. However, I still see red when someone describes goans who want to cling onto their identity as "fundamentalist". This, I cannot stomach. I am one of those Goans, who is very proud to be a Goan and will cling onto my identity till evolution batters it out of me. Elisabeth --- "D'Souza, Avelino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > http://www.knowledgecommission.org/members/pbProfile.aspx > > Excerpt from the above link: > > "Dr. Pratap Bhanu Mehta is President and Chief > Executive, Centre for > Policy Research, New Delhi. He was previously > Professor of Government at > Harvard University and Associate Professor of > Government and of Social > Studies at Harvard. He was also Professor of > Philosophy and Law and > Governance, JNU." > > > Avelino > > _ > > Victor Rangel-Ribeiro wrote: > > Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm not too sure about the discussions that > preceded, > but I agree with Gilbert that the review of Holy > Warriors by Pratap Mehta, is disingenuous to say the > least. It is no secret that most reviewers earn > their > bread and butter, trying to be psuedointellectuals > pontificating over material they themselves are > incapable of putting together. Never having > published > anything of note, most reviewers spend their time in > tiny offices (if they are lucky) at major > publications > writing out book reviews when they're not doing food > reviews. As such, they are much like air stewardess' > who having failed to launch their acting careers > spend > their life harassing passengers on discount > airlines. > > Dear Elisabeth, > You have taken Pratap Mehta to task for what you > consider to be > specific > flaws in his review, and that is your prerogative. > But I do think you > are > wrong in stating that "most reviewers earn their > bread trying to be > pseudointellectuals... in tiny offices ... at major > publications." > Reviews of > fiction, at least here in the USA, are written > largely by freelancers > who are > handpicked by editors for having themselves been > published; nonfiction > books > in specialised fields such as music are reviewed not > in the popular > press but > in scholarly publications, by very knowledgeable > people with excellent > credentials. That has been my experience. > I must also add that I have been flying since > 1953, and have yet to > meet the > kind of air stewardess you describe. You must have > had a terrible > experience > with one particular person, but in general I have > found them to be very > helpful even in quite stressful conditions. > Regards, > Victor > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] RE: Review of the Review by the Reviewer
Victorio darling, if I don't stretch the truth (much like Pratap Mehta) every now and then, do you think anyone would read the drivel I write? :)) Lighten up and drink that free beer you get onboard. :)) Elisabeth --- Victor Rangel-Ribeiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm not too sure about the discussions that > preceded, > but I agree with Gilbert that the review of Holy > Warriors by Pratap Mehta, is disingenuous to say the > least. It is no secret that most reviewers earn > their > bread and butter, trying to be psuedointellectuals > pontificating over material they themselves are > incapable of putting together. Never having > published > anything of note, most reviewers spend their time in > tiny offices (if they are lucky) at major > publications > writing out book reviews when they're not doing food > reviews. As such, they are much like air stewardess' > who having failed to launch their acting careers > spend > their life harassing passengers on discount > airlines. > > Dear Elisabeth, > You have taken Pratap Mehta to task for what you > consider to be specific > flaws in his review, and that is your prerogative. > But I do think you are > wrong in stating that "most reviewers earn their > bread trying to be > pseudointellectuals... in tiny offices ... at major > publications." Reviews of > fiction, at least here in the USA, are written > largely by freelancers who are > handpicked by editors for having themselves been > published; nonfiction books > in specialised fields such as music are reviewed not > in the popular press but > in scholarly publications, by very knowledgeable > people with excellent > credentials. That has been my experience. > I must also add that I have been flying since > 1953, and have yet to meet the > kind of air stewardess you describe. You must have > had a terrible experience > with one particular person, but in general I have > found them to be very > helpful even in quite stressful conditions. > Regards, > Victor > __ > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
RE: [Goanet] Review of the Review by the Reviewer
Ofcourse if I was anything more than an opinionated hausfrau, I would have goggled this: http://www.knowledgecommission.org/members/pbProfile.aspx before I railroaded into Pratap Mehta. However, I still think he is long on rhetoric and short on review. He rightly deserves a pulpit, about the Pulitzer, I'm not too sure. Elisabeth --- Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm not too sure about the discussions that > preceded, > but I agree with Gilbert that the review of Holy > Warriors by Pratap Mehta, is disingenuous to say the > least. It is no secret that most reviewers earn > their > bread and butter, trying to be psuedointellectuals > pontificating over material they themselves are > incapable of putting together. Never having > published > anything of note, most reviewers spend their time in > tiny offices (if they are lucky) at major > publications > writing out book reviews when they're not doing food > reviews. As such, they are much like air stewardess' > who having failed to launch their acting careers > spend > their life harassing passengers on discount > airlines. > > Pratap Mehta, seems more infatuated with his own > writing prowess that with objectively reviewing > anyone > elses. Although gifted with the pen he wields it > much > too forcefully, in the event slaying all the wrong > dragons. For instance, he writes: > > "Fernandes embarks on her journey into the heart of > Indian fundamentalism > with a peculiarly shallow version of liberal > sympathies" > > What exactly is shallow liberalism? Either one > embraces the precepts of liberalism or one doesn't > but > what in Pratap's dictionary exemplifies shallow > liberalism, is left to the readers imagination. > > He goes on to write: > "Show that you > are even-handed by exposing fundamentalists of all > religions: assorted > Muslims ranging from Deobandis to the Imam of Jama > Masjid; Christians in > Goa clinging on to a Goan identity, to Baptists in > Nagaland trying to > create new ones, assorted survivors amongst Kashmiri > Pandits and victims > of anti-Sikh riots." > > This is not review but pure rhetoric on his part. He > cannot dictate to the author what does or does not > constitute fundamentalism; that remains the author's > interpretation. Perhaps to the author, "Christians > in > Goa clinging onto a Goan identity" does not > constitute > "fundamentalism" but rather people who are in > genuine > search of an identity when it is being railroaded en > masse by another identity with which they have no > wish > to identify. > > To me Pratap was long on rhetoric and short on > review. > He did manage to convince me that he was brimming > with > ideas on India and that he could be eloquent about > them but that doesn't call for a review, it calls by > ANOTHER BOOK by Pratap Mehta. > > Elisabeth > > > > > > > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
RE: [Goanet] Review of the Review by the Reviewer
I'm not too sure about the discussions that preceded, but I agree with Gilbert that the review of Holy Warriors by Pratap Mehta, is disingenuous to say the least. It is no secret that most reviewers earn their bread and butter, trying to be psuedointellectuals pontificating over material they themselves are incapable of putting together. Never having published anything of note, most reviewers spend their time in tiny offices (if they are lucky) at major publications writing out book reviews when they're not doing food reviews. As such, they are much like air stewardess' who having failed to launch their acting careers spend their life harassing passengers on discount airlines. Pratap Mehta, seems more infatuated with his own writing prowess that with objectively reviewing anyone elses. Although gifted with the pen he wields it much too forcefully, in the event slaying all the wrong dragons. For instance, he writes: "Fernandes embarks on her journey into the heart of Indian fundamentalism with a peculiarly shallow version of liberal sympathies" What exactly is shallow liberalism? Either one embraces the precepts of liberalism or one doesn't but what in Pratap's dictionary exemplifies shallow liberalism, is left to the readers imagination. He goes on to write: "Show that you are even-handed by exposing fundamentalists of all religions: assorted Muslims ranging from Deobandis to the Imam of Jama Masjid; Christians in Goa clinging on to a Goan identity, to Baptists in Nagaland trying to create new ones, assorted survivors amongst Kashmiri Pandits and victims of anti-Sikh riots." This is not review but pure rhetoric on his part. He cannot dictate to the author what does or does not constitute fundamentalism; that remains the author's interpretation. Perhaps to the author, "Christians in Goa clinging onto a Goan identity" does not constitute "fundamentalism" but rather people who are in genuine search of an identity when it is being railroaded en masse by another identity with which they have no wish to identify. To me Pratap was long on rhetoric and short on review. He did manage to convince me that he was brimming with ideas on India and that he could be eloquent about them but that doesn't call for a review, it calls by ANOTHER BOOK by Pratap Mehta. Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: Goa's road carnage, some views...
Dear Valmiki, I'm not sure if Goa has this already but maybe a certain investment should be made in "highway patrol cops". These are generally cops on power bikes or cars, who will chase after you on a highway, siren blasting, until they catch up with you. I've not seen them in Goa but then again maybe they do exist and I've just never encountered them. Elisabeth --- Valmiki Faleiro wrote: > Goa's road carnage, some views... > > Death and pain on our roads is, slowly but relentlessly, raging into Goa's > major tragedy. Official figures for the first quarter of 2006 are out. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Re: Reservations rear their ugly head again!
Dear Socrates Rest assured your disciples have read every word with their morning hemlock ...ahem coffee. I think the 65 year old woman with enough money should take "tennis lessons" from our champ everyday in the afternoon. This will ensure (a) efficient use of all available resources (b)adequate redistribution of wealth (c) peace and harmony in the village, atleast for the afternoon. Elisabeth --- Cecil Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Let me try answering George Pinto's hypothetical > question: _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: Warring factions on Goanet
Dear Gilbert, If I am responsible for the de-calcifying of Mario's heart, I expect my reward to be sent to be via first class mail, in small $ bills:)) Elisabeth --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Mario's response (to Elisabeth's philosophie): > This is too opaque for me. > > GL Comment: > I never thought I'd read the above statement from > Mario. > Is this how they say it in Toledo? :=)) > Rather than, "I need to bring out my cowboy boots" > . > Or has all the ossification gotten de-calcified in > front of the fairer skin? > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: Reservations rears its ugly head again!
Dear George, You have given us an excellent example. I don't know what the original context of this example in the book was, but let me hypothesize a context. Let's suppose there is an inter-village Tennis tournament. The prize money for the tournament, is to be divided between the player and the clubhouse sponsoring the player. The player gets a percentage to do with it as he wishes. The club house's share is to be reinvested in another tennis court for the village. Now, under these circumstances, who should get to use the tennis court? a) Everyone in the village for 5 minutes. This would result in a waste of resources as it would take practice time away from our champ and reduce his chances of being competitive inter-village. b) A poor, underprivileged family. Well, there might be a champ amongst them, who could possibly win a tournament but given their background chances are they can't afford the time and money it takes to commit to a tournament. They are involved with bread and butter issues at this point. c)A rich 65 year old woman. Well, if she makes enough time for physical training and other investments which money can buy, there is a chance she can win the tournament but why waste her resources on a possibility, when they could be utilised somewhere else. Perhaps in sponsoring our meritorious champ. I say, let the champ play all the time. Yes, in the short run this will seem "unfair" but life is not always egalitarian in the "purest" sense of the word. Life, much like Adam Smith stated, is many a times guided by self-interest which strangely enough has the effect of making it efficient. In the long-run, the champ wins the tournament. The village gets a second tennis court and more people get to play. The old concepts of redistribution of wealth are passe. Today, we have to aim for creation of wealth. The pie is never big enough, when sliced four-ways. We have to bake a bigger pie. Good debate! Elisabeth -- --- George Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > There is one tennis court in a village (a world of > limited resources which we live in). Who among > the following gets to use to the tennis court among > the villagers? > A. The village tennis star (merit based). > B. A rich 65 year old woman who is willing to pay > anything to play (wealth). > C. Every villager gets 5 minutes (equality based). > D. A poor family who has been discriminated against > and never been allowed to play sport before in > the village (opportunity based). > > Justice and equality is not "pure", behind every > claim for what is just and fair (including in the > reservations debate) is someone's prejudices and > biases. My answer is D. and C. above get first > choice. > > What is yours? > > Regards, > George > P.S. Reservations does not have an ugly head (as the > subject line suggests). It has a > multi-faceted head. > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: The warring factions of Goannet
Gilbert, didn't you say you were a grandfather three times over. I've always found older men fascinating, provided they were not too calcified :)) I stop short of rigor mortis. :) --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > When one attracts the attention of the ayatollahs > from the major centers of the Goan world, it is a > sure sign that the individual has become a "Hutton". > I bet Elisabeth is enjoying every moment of this > adulation. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] MUMBAI AMCHE NAI
It won't be long before slums constitute 60% of Goa. Elisabeth --- airesrod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In Mumbai with hawkers, shopkeepers and manholes > on > footpaths, the pedestrians have to walk on the > roads > leaving very little room for vehicles to manoeuvre. > In > Shanghai one drives on the right of the road but > unfortunately in Mumbai one has to be content > driving > on whatever is left of the road. So the transition > of > Mumbai to Shanghai may be a long way ahead. > > With thousands migrating into Mumbai everyday the > city > cannot be allowed to fend for itself. The > Maharashtra > Government has reportedly formulated new rules to > check the migration into Mumbai. Currently slum > dwellers constitute about 60 per cent of Mumbai's > population which is about seven million people. > > We all have to do our little bit in easing the > pressure on the city's crumbling infrastructure > which > will now be over stretched with the bar dance girls > all set to be back in business. More of us could > join > the Lata Mangueskar chorus and move on. I for one > will > do my bit and try and spend more time in Goa. > > Aires Rodrigues > > > > > > ___ > > Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could > win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Easter reflections of an agnostic
Dear Mario, At first thought I agreed with you completely but later contemplating it in depth, I've had a rethink. Doing "good" is a Pavlovian response, mankind has developed in order to sustain some amount of order in this world. If one matures beyond the equation, "I do good and will be rewarded by a divine entity", then seeking answers to one's spirituality is divorced from doing good. The path to one's spirituality is an intimate examination of self and its relationship with the universe. One can do immense good in this world but may not necessarily be interested in such an intense examination. On the other hand one can be deeply spiritual but may remove oneself from the constraints of society and embrace solitude, such as the early Gnostics of Christianity. Elisabeth -- --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Whatever one's beliefs are, they are useless in my > never humble opinion if they have not induced one to > reach out voluntarily, to help someone less > fortunate > help themselves, be they people disadvantaged by the > diabolical caste system, the poor, the old, the > hungry, the physically and mentally challenged, and > those brutally oppressed by sadistic and misogynist > tyrants. > > > > > _ > Do not post admin requests to the list. > Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Reservations rears its ugly head again!
The injustices endured by one section of society cannot be perpetrated onto another section of society, as a form of redressal. There are middle class students who cannot afford exorbitant capitation fees or "donations" required by private colleges. They depend on government-funded institutions and the privilege of studying in a premier institute such as IIT is the right of every meritorious student, regardless of their background. Secondly, scholastic inequity is not to be addressed at the tail-end of the spectrum but rather at the beginning. It is primary education that has to be strenghtened, access to public libraries, subsidised private tutoring, introduction of English medium even in government-funded primary schools. These are the changes that will add value to our education. Thirdly, we have to admit that a certain inequity exists in life. We have to admit that economic inequity influences all parameters of life. It is true that someone with wealth will have access to and better exposure to education, information and influences that take place outside the classroom. Unless, we address the vast economic inequities that exist in India, we cannot solve the problem by simply diluting the quality of our educational standards. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: Reservation rears its ugly head again!
A nice perspective Jason. I hadn't even thought about that angle. Elisabeth --- Jason Monserrate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That was put very nicely, Elisabeth. > > Instead of reservations, why are our politicians not > concerned about creating a level playing field, > where > merit alone rules. > > Now that they have decided to make reservations a > key > issue, i have a few suggestions for Arjun Singh and > company. > > They can start with sports and then graduate to the > IITs and IIMs. You guys can reserve 5 places out of > the 11 in the Indian Cricket Team for SC/ST/OBC > (49.5%). Also, for every Davis Cup tennis tie, in > the > doubles, let one player be either SC/ST/OBC. Same > thing for Badminton and TT and all other team games > like soccer and all > > And, also 49.5% reservation of seats in Parliament, > please!! > > Regards, > Jason. > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Re: Reservation rears its ugly head again!
Dear George, You've raised some valid questions. The injustices endured by one section of society cannot be perpetrated onto another section of society, as a form of redressal. There are middle class students who cannot afford exorbitant capitation fees or "donations" required by private colleges. They depend on government-funded institutions and the privilege of studying in a premier institute such as IIT is the right of every meritorious student, regardless of their background. Secondly, scholastic inequity is not to be addressed at the tail-end of the spectrum but rather at the beginning. It is primary education that has to be strenghtened, access to public libraries, subsidised private tutoring, introduction of English medium even in government-funded primary schools. These are the changes that will add value to our education. Thirdly, we have to admit that a certain inequity exists in life. We have to admit that economic inequity influences all parameters of life. It is true that someone with wealth will have access to and better exposure to education, information and influences that take place outside the classroom. Unless, we address the vast economic inequities that exist in India, we cannot solve the problem by simply diluting the quality of our educational standards. Elisabeth - --- George Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What should be done for those who have no > opportunity to lift themselves up from poverty? How > are > they supposed to compete "on merit" with those who > have had the luxury of several generations of > middle class upbringing and living, access to > schools, and family wealth to pursue their > interests? Specifically, how are the downtrodden > supposed to gain the benefits of society and not > suffer all its burdens, given that charity is not a > long-term solution? > > Regards, > George > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Reservation rears its ugly head again!
The reservation system in India is like a two headed snake that spits out venom and hurts the very people it is supposed to protect. Arjun Singh, HRD minister of India is set to impose an almost 50% OBC reservation in government-funded higher institutions of education. Reservations in India, far from serving the purpose of national integration, creates yet another caste in India. That of the academically disabled. While on the one hand proposals to increase the pass rate from 35% and changes to syllabus are strictly opposed by OBC students,on the other hand reservation quotes are rammed down the throats of higher institutions of education , without much debate and in much haste. Fostering an atmosphere of entitlement rather than merit does not serve the purpose of a country competing globally and for whom a vital source of revenue comes for outsourcing and export of IT techies. More importantly, it depresses and dampens the spirit of our youth. Students scoring as high as 90% are forced to take on streams of education they have no interest it while someone who scores a mere 50% can get into a premier institution. Social justice cannot be perverted and then justified. It makes a mockery out of the word justice. Politics is a dirty game and each political party barters its soul to the devil to gain a few votes. These policies of appeasement do little to uplift but doubtless do much for the vote-banks and bank accounts of our politicians. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
