Re: Facsimeles etc.
On Tuesday, December 2, 2003, at 07:32 PM, Michael Thames wrote: After this experience, You can bet I will do everything in my power to access these works of Bach, and free them to the world. God forbid you come across any Weiss, then I'll really get mad! I'm curious? Do you support the practice of downloading audio files off the internet for free, thus freeing the music of recording artists to the world? If not the latest John Williams CD, how about an important historical recording of, say, Segovia or Toscanini? All EMI or RCA did was set up a microphone or two. All the latest company did was to transfer them to CD... Brian
Re: Facsimeles etc.
No it isn't a crime. And legalities have nothing to do with what Albert is talking about. Fairness is the issue. He invested a great deal of time and money in creating this book, and you publicly declare that you intend to rip him off. That was not a crime, but a stupid thing to do. Take example from your like-minded perps. There are quite a few of them around. Say nothing and do what you have to do. If what you did stinks, you'll have to live with it Hey fellow, First of all I stated my intentions were to post the facsimiles, and ask people what they thought, I then said I'd take the matter to heart. Incase you don't have a heart, I'll translate that into, I will listen to what everyone said. I then made a decision that the right thing to do was to contact Albert and propose an idea, which is not to far different than Thomas Schell's site. Then all hell broke loose! No where did I publicly declare that I intend to rip him off Those are you words. At no time did I say I would post the facsimiles regardless of Albert's wishes, and quite frankly I won't, based not so much on legality, but to respect his wishes. In the end I don't want to piss off anymore human beings,than I have to, except you! I asked some alarming questions again out of my naivety which you seem to enjoy pointing out. Also, concerning young guitars students, I have noticed that hardly any of them play baroque or ren music these, it's mostly modern. In one local private high school in Albuq. there are 70 guitar students. Being that I only play Baroque lute, that does alarm me, in a selfish kind of way. So I don't know what planet your from, but as you claim to be in tune with the guitar world you obviously are not. This without a dought is what these young kids are into. wake up and smell the coffee! my friend. Also, concerning my website and posting Facsimiles. I could care less about another Bach version of a lute suite for guitar, I just like seeing the facsimile, and if it draws guitarists to my site all the better for me. But I do want to help these kids as well Believe me or not. In the end, I don;t give a rats ass if you ever heard of me or not. I conceder that to be a blessing. Go and get some help my friend! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 11:53 PM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. At 09:56 PM 12/2/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Relax Montana, That can work both ways, distorting people's names intentionally. But I will resist the urge to engage in this juvenile silliness. I see you have quite alot of baggage with this issue, to go after me with your well known guile, and considering remarks. You truly take the prize for vileness, your reputation precedes you. Glad you noticed. Again, glad to be the scapegoat for you Publishing kind of guys, but as you say this is getting old, isn't it. If I were your mother I'd take you over my knee and give a good whacking! But since this is your only source of income I'll forgive you! That's bullshit number one. Publishing is not my source of income at all. It is only the source of my _losses_ over the years. If had to live the way I do from music publishing, this business would have gone down the drain decades ago. Do check my biography more carefully. Lets put all exchanges of pleasantries aside, Please tell me the crime I'm guilty of, what have I done other than ask a few uncomfortable questions. I've already admitted I'm stupid, and you've pointed that out again just in case everyone forgot. Is WANTING to post a facsimile a crime? No it isn't a crime. And legalities have nothing to do with what Albert is talking about. Fairness is the issue. He invested a great deal of time and money in creating this book, and you publicly declare that you intend to rip him off. That was not a crime, but a stupid thing to do. Take example from your like-minded perps. There are quite a few of them around. Say nothing and do what you have to do. If what you did stinks, you'll have to live with it. As I stated, I asked Albert's permission. Wrong person to ask. He does not own the manuscript. He paid money for the permission to publish it, and this is exactly what you should do: apply to the library and ask for permission, and pay the fee. Then you do whatever you want to do. Albert even gave you the address and the name of the person to write to. So instead of sniffling about legalities, do what all of us are doing: get it DIRECTLY from the source. But come to think of it, as of yet I haven't heard his answer. Just between you and me Montana what do you think He'll say? He already said it. Loud and clear. Montana, if there are 50 or so editions of the Bach
Re: Assorted questions
On Tuesday 02 December 2003 14:19, Daniel Shoskes wrote: Dear Daniel, some answers because I saw nobody replied to you. Things I have wondered about (and never thought to post as individual questions): 1) What are the early signs that lute strings and frets need to be replaced? (short of the obvious late decomposition) You start retuning the string every time again and it's still wrong in different positions. I turn the frets 180 degrees sometimes because I'm to lazy to replace them. early signs are the clear dip in the fret; it's to far when the string is touching the next fret. 3) I recently downloaded a wonderful piece by Vallet called Malsimmes. Any indication if this should be a slow or fast piece? It seems to work either way. There is no indication. It's a dance-like piece found also in Van den Hove. Because of it's character I would prefer to play it not too slow, but not fast. 5) For those of you who play Ren and Baroque, is it reasonable to learn both at the same time or does it make more sense to achieve a fairly high level of technique in one before switching to lessons exclusively on the other? I would certainly not start on both instruments at the same time. Renaissance lute is preferred as start instrument because of the many available easy pieces and printed sources. It's also not a good idea because of the different finger techniques. 6) I notice that some Rennaisance tablature archives have the letters placed in the spaces and others have them on the lines. The few facsimilies I have seen seem to be only in the spaces. Are there different conventions? Depends on the original source. Some of these source have printed the tablature through the lines, some on the lines. There are certainly several facsimiles which show tablature characters through lines (Besard, Adriaensen ..) Taco Thanks all in advance.
Re: Facsimeles etc.
Good Lord, what am I to say. (And for the politically correct, I do not use the phrase Good Lord for any establishment of religion, merely as a gentle expletive). I do hope the lack of civility in this discussion thread isn't characteristic of the Lute List. I have gotten so much help here in my staggering efforts to come into the community. Let's look at the issues clearly. There is a difference between the downloading of audio files of performances by artists (although most of the files downloaded these days may be from those I wouldn't consider to be artists), and the downloading of the facsimile of the notation of early music, or even recent music. The former is a downloading in order to listen without paying for the performance. The latter may, or may not, be the search for pieces in public domain that one intends to play and interpret for oneself (and perhaps share that possibility with others by passing on the notation). And we accept that they are different? The download of a performance for personal use may be wrong, or just may be a way of sampling the artist's work in order to decide whether to buy the CD. That is a matter of personal honor and choice. The downloading of original material is another thing. Scribner's (or whoever now owns that venerable store) has the rights to the sheet music of Cole Porter, but that is long past copyright, it is used for commercial jingles now. It is public domain. Then we come to the fine line. The music that is public domain, but not generally available. To take it to an extreme suppose I discover a form of music made by Tibetan bells, and spend my money to go to Tibet and find the bell ringer's notation. Then I bring it to the western world, and there is a demand for it. I would think that I would deserve a copyright, or some other compensation, for my discovery and expense when the music is promulgated. But at the other extreme I can't see that there are rights to music that was generally sold years ago just because one has found a copy in a museum. I'll close this with an example. The great and prolific Irish harpist Turlough O'Carolan left hundred of pieces in the repertoire of whistlers, pipers and harpists. But none were written down as he was blind. A Planxty anything is probably an O'Carolan written of an evening in honor of his host of the night. (My favorite is Planxty George Brabazon, but his most famous is Eleanor Plunkett). So none of his music can retain rights, even the host's heirs can't say they have the original text as there is none. Enough, this is a tempest in a teapot. A thread that is neither warp nor woof, but is too warped by some, and has too much woofing by others. Let civility and good will reign, and give a bit of trust to your fellow lutenists. Best, Jon
Re: Lute Questions
Guy, Notwithstanding your choice of venue, breaking the rules is what one does when one has learned to play by them. There were no fencers in the days of sword duels, at least not when their lives were on the line. Look at the old manuals of combat, the skills attained at fencing are important, but the butt of the haft may disturb one's opponent and leave him vulnerable. Rules are for training and gaining skills, and they will stand you well in a contest or a real fight. But when life is on the line one must know when to break them to surprise the opponent and kill him. (And I've never done that, but have won a number of bar fights with the surprise move). What you say is quite correct, learn your trade, then make it work for you. Best, Jon
Fretgut question
Dear Luteneers, I'm at astage where my fretgut on my 14 course swan neck are so frayed that buzzing is serious. I survived two years on my old supply but forgot what size I need. I have two requests. The first is short term. What diameter fretgut should I order? I recall 0.9, 0.8, 0.7 down the neck? Is this right? Second request is can someone suggest what gauge strings should I order for a fourteen course. Starting with 1st to 14th. A cut and paste of someone's order form would be appreciated. I have the standard J.C. Hoffmann 14 course German swan neck theorbo-lute. Many thanks in advance. Michael. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Assorted Questions
It occurred to me that Hans Judenkunig might have been a converted Jew (my somewhat elderly 'Grove' has nothing to say about his origins). Certainly converted Jews were frequently given names that made their origins clear to one and all. When the Jews were finally allowed out of the ghettos in the 19th century, particularly in Germany/Austria, they were allowed to purchase a family name. The less they could afford, the (literally) sillier (silly that is, in German) the name they were allocated. So poor Jews given names like Zwirnnadel (Threadneedle), or suchlike, while those better off were allowed to call themselves Rothschild. Only an idea, but the name 'Judenkunig' is so unlikely (certainly in my studies of German culture I've never come across one like it), that I just wondered whether this could be the reason. Cheers Tom
Re: Facsimeles etc.
But again: place YOURS and not MINE. That is grossly untrue: It is Bach's and Weyrauch's (i.e. belonging to the World), and you [Albert Reyermann] merely BORROWED it. And your noble purpose has no bearing on this matter. RT Now, now, it is Mr. Reyermanns FACSIMILE EDITION that he speaks of, and also of Mr. Thames non-existant one. He doesn't claim ownership of the actual music and you know it. And if you miss his arguement, go back and read his email... Brian Uncle Albert owns the paper and the ink, but not the arrangement of ink on paper. So he can only say facsimile I produced but not my facsimile. This is linguistics, and has nothing to do with either economics or ethics. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
falce and unperfect
Just as an aside, where does Diego Cantalupi's pdf of Kapsberger III fit in? Unlike Stewart, I wouldn't want a lot of facsimiles, as the ones I have or have had I find difficult to read (I think this comes out in the practical reproduction difficulties both with Welde and with Tree editions), not to mention a bit falce and unperfect. I therefore need to transcribe them, hopefully without error... Tony
Folia
Are there any good folias for the Baroque lute?
Re: Facsimeles etc.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Albert, Thanks, that was very clear. I agree with you. Allan Alexander Back in the old country there is a saying: Crows never peck each other's eyes. RT
Re: Fretgut question
Dear Michael, I'm at astage where my fretgut on my 14 course swan neck are so frayed that buzzing is serious. ... Buzzing problem is caused by height of string from finger board and gauge of fretgut. It is difficult to solve the problem generally. But why don't you try thin fretgut (e.g. 0.7) for the all fret. Second request is can someone suggest what gauge strings should I order for a fourteen course. ... To get appropriate gauge for strings, it is necessary to know string length both of on finger board and diapason. How long are they? -- Gonzaemon Biwanoin / Masao Mori mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Facsimeles etc.
From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Roman, I have every sympathy with what you say. Those of us who own good instruments and expensive music are most fortunate, whether it came by luck, by hard work, or because we happen to live in affluent societies. Of course, I would love to own more instruments, better instruments, more music (particularly lute facsimiles), but even though I cannot afford these things, what I have already is far more than many others may have. Stewart, I have never doubted that you were a man with a heart. Both of us have had first-hand experience of seeing the difficulties faced by musicians in other countries, where the local currency may (or may not) be sufficient to buy things produced locally, but certainly cannot match the hard currency needed to buy books and instruments from abroad. It is a serious issue, and I think you are absolutely right to mention it, thinking and caring for others, as you do. Where we disagree is what should be done about it. I don't think putting Albert Reyerman's facsimile editions on a website is the answer. That would be unfair to Albert, because it would be giving away his work without his permission. My idea is that facsimile business MUST be made to function similarly to the Metropolitan Museum admissions: Pay what you wish (what is is worth to you, what you honestly can afford), minimum is a mere penny. I have done this a few times with my paintings and it generated no abuse. Besides, making his facsimiles available on a website would be giving his work to everyone, rich and poor alike, wherever they happened to live on this world. Albert would get nothing, and that can't be right. He owns an AGFA-scanner, doedn't he? Others reading this e-mail may care to remember your e-mail to the list dated 3rd March 2003, Re: Off Topic, but, in which you give the names and addresses of musicians in Russia and the Ukraine, who would appreciate help in the form of music and CD's. It is an extremely important issue, and I would be very interested to hear what you and others may think, and what practical steps might be taken. In recent months I have mailed more than a 100 CD, only 15 of them pirated to the old country. Ukraine now has half a dozen lutenists, and one luthier of some competence. Adopt-a-lutenist may sound condescending, but in reality is a good thing. I know for certain that a box of books I sent to St.Petersburg 15 years ago brought 2 people into the fold. An organization may have legitimate reservations about sending copied materials, but individuals have no reason to feel constrained. Anyone actually interested in helping, ask me off the list. I am compiling a russophone lutenists' directory (53 worldwide) and while it is hard to find contact information, there are a dozen or so lads worth helping. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 4:16 AM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. Why stop at facsimiles? Why not make all their published music available for free downloading? This would be such a great service to everyone, wouldn't it, because then we wouldn't have the trouble and expense of actually acquiring the books legitimately ourselves. A good and noble idea, actually (limited to dead composers, of course). When we use words like ourselves we invariably limit the notion to more or less prosperous European and American middle class types who actually are able to afford said trouble and expense. This, however, is a rather callous worldview of a petit bourgeois, and it is expected, as the lute microcosm is a scaled down version of the larger world, and there is no added reason to expect any altruism from it any more than from the larger one. The lute microcosm is nowhere near the idyll that uncle Albert, MO, or St.McCoy imagine it to be. There are GREAT MANY lutenists that are UNABLE to undertake the trouble of both access and affordability of lute music, the reasons being their isolation of faraway places AND/OR places in which a price of an item from even such moderate and reasonable publisher as uncle Albert buys a week's worth of food. They have computers that they largely build themselves, they share modems between half a dozen friends when they can buy internet access cards, they sometimes have decent lutes strung with unimaginable things, and they love music in general, as well as lute music in particular. I also have reasons to believe that hardship is not limited to the part of the world associated with RT's birthplace. Thing are not much better in South America (which has produced some of the finest lute-players to date). So I consider it my sacred duty to make everything lutenistically relevant available to these
Re: Facsimeles etc.
Matanya Ophee wrote: At 09:20 PM 12/2/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: St. Michael the Liberator! I notice you don't give your guitars away. Don't you think the world should be given free access to such fine instruments? ;-) DR This is not an analogy, he MAKES them from scratch. RT Roman, thanks. I just didn't know what to say to someone like that. It's easy to grab at the straws RT supplies you with when your hypocrisy is staring you in the face. But Roman is wrong. The analogy is perfect. The issue is not the music, but the object you hold in your hand when you put it on the copy machine. That is a book, and it was made from scratch by one person who invested a great deal of time and money in creating it. What a load of crap! Making a book is a manufacturing operation and, per se, does not involve any creativity. There may be creativity in the content... but not when the content consists of facsimiles. There is no copyright in operating a copying machine no matter how inconvenient or expensive it was to obtain the source manuscript. -- Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul: http://DoctorOakroot.com
Re: Falce and unperfect: was: Facsimeles etc.
Dear Tony, If you wanted, you could probably track down an address for Broude Bros via the Internet. I'm afraid I don't know what the legal situation is in America. We usually rely on Howard Posner's expertise when it comes to legal matters. If I remember right, his last e-mail on this subject seemed to suggest that the situation wasn't absolutely clear. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 1:08 PM Subject: Falce and unperfect: was: Facsimeles etc. I think the same was true of the Quarto editions of Shakespeare. Where do Broude Performers' facsimiles fit in to this? I have their Lachrimae table book (price in ink on the inside cover). Neither the publisher's name nor a copyright mark appear anywhere in the book. I do not have any intention of publishing any part of it on Internet - (it's mine 'cos I paid for it), but if I had, and wanted to ask their permission, I would find it very difficult as I can't imagine a letter to 'Performers' Facsimiles, New York' would get there easily. Is this a question of US law, or is there a fundamental difference in policy? Tony
Falce and unperfect: was: Facsimeles etc.
I think the same was true of the Quarto editions of Shakespeare. Where do Broude Performers' facsimiles fit in to this? I have their Lachrimae table book (price in ink on the inside cover). Neither the publisher's name nor a copyright mark appear anywhere in the book. I do not have any intention of publishing any part of it on Internet - (it's mine 'cos I paid for it), but if I had, and wanted to ask their permission, I would find it very difficult as I can't imagine a letter to 'Performers' Facsimiles, New York' would get there easily. Is this a question of US law, or is there a fundamental difference in policy? Tony - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 12:49 AM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. Dear Herbert, Our medium of computers may be new, but the matter under discussion most certainly is not. There were various pirate editions of music in the 16th century, with characters like Pierre Phalese dipping into other people's books for inspiration. For example, music by Valderrabano was borrowed by Phalese, and presumably Valderrabano didn't get a bean for it. Funny that you should mention John Dowland. He was furious that people published his music without his permission, introducing mistakes in the process. This is what he had to say in the introduction to _The First Booke of Songes_ (London, 1597): There have bin divers Lute lessons of mine printed without my knowledge, falce and unperfect ... He was certainly not impressed by people stealing his music for publication. It is thought that Dowland might have had William Barley in mind, who had published a version of Dowland's Lachrimae Pavan in 1596. We know about improper practices with regard to the printing and selling of Dowland's _Second Booke of Songs or Ayres_ (London, 1600), because it resulted in a court case. Information on all of this may be found in Diana Poulton's _John Dowland_ (London: Faber and Faber Limited, 1972). Maybe William Barley thought Lachrimae was in the public domain. Maybe the printers who sold extra copies of Dowland's _Second Booke_ on the sly thought they were helping the lute-playing world by spreading Dowland's music to a wider audience. Who knows? The fact remains that the plague of plagiarism is not new. If there be any crassness, it belongs to those who underestimate the significance of it all. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 10:11 PM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. Would, say, Dowland have been surprised at 21st century culture, where 99% of music is commercial and a ready source of litigation? Has there always been music of such aggressive crassness as is heard (in abundant volume) on any city street corner? I'm not anti-Tree, but I do wonder whether this is related.
Re: Folia
At 10:25 PM 12/3/03 +0900, Ed Durbrow wrote: Are there any good folias for the Baroque lute? Check out http://members.chello.nl/folia/. It's a pretty good catalog of a great many Folias, for d-minor lute and otherwise. I know Gallot wrote a set of variations for lute, but the baroque Folia seems to have flowered its fullest on 5-course guitar. Eugene
Re: Facsimeles, etc
PLEASE, LET'S SPEAK ABOUT THOSE TOPICS WE KNOW WELL ! Actually I do know a few things about this, having published a book written by my father, and having worked in the industry. It is a real shame that Albert Reyerman had to explain with full details how much work it means publishing (= making public) something, in this case lute manuscripts. It is a shame because he had to, out of the feeling that his work was being neglected. Besides, it is for me totally clear that Albert Reyerman is doing it not for the financial profit, -which is negligible, or even inexistent if he counts his own time- but because of other compensations. The right of uncle Albert to bublish his Bach facsimile has never been questioned. The interesting thing is Albert has no rights to control what happens to these images after he publishes them, because they are common property, like Goethe or Shakespeare. I also would like to ask you for a favor, dear Michael Thames: please stop using that sentence in which photography is considered only a matter of pressing a button. Manolo, I felt your pain, but both of us know that there is photography, and there is Photography, just like there are painting and Painting, and we know which category yours belongs to (Those who don't know should at least try to find out). RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: Facsimeles, etc
Hello Albert, Thanks, that was very clear. I agree with you. Allan Alexander Back in the old country there is a saying: Crows never peck each other's eyes. RT Are you suggesting that I am a publisher of facsimiles? I have no interest in this business. I think that if Albert publishes the book, people should respect his publication and not copy and distribute it. If they want to go get their own information, let them do it. No, but you are believed to be a publisher of commercial ARRANGEMENTS. I do not wish to open a second can of worms, but earlier I have expressed an opinion that an arrangement, although it is not a facsimile, should carry only a minimal price tag, because it is basically someone else's music, usually from public domain. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org Allan PLEASE, LET'S SPEAK ABOUT THOSE TOPICS WE KNOW WELL ! Actually I do know a few things about this, having published a book written by my father, and having worked in the industry. It is a real shame that Albert Reyerman had to explain with full details how much work it means publishing (= making public) something, in this case lute manuscripts. It is a shame because he had to, out of the feeling that his work was being neglected. Besides, it is for me totally clear that Albert Reyerman is doing it not for the financial profit, -which is negligible, or even inexistent if he counts his own time- but because of other compensations. The right of uncle Albert to bublish his Bach facsimile has never been questioned. The interesting thing is Albert has no rights to control what happens to these images after he publishes them, because they are common property, like Goethe or Shakespeare. I also would like to ask you for a favor, dear Michael Thames: please stop using that sentence in which photography is considered only a matter of pressing a button. Manolo, I felt your pain, but both of us know that there is photography, and there is Photography, just like there are painting and Painting, and we know which category yours belongs to (Those who don't know should at least try to find out). RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org www.fluteandguitar.com www.guitarandlute.com
Re: an apologie
Michael thank you indeed for that email. I for my part have closed the book on this matter. Best regards Albert Albert Reyerman TREE EDITION Michael Thames wrote: Dear Mr.Reyrman, Thank you for the kind reply. You will no doubt be forwarded a = letter in which I addressed the lute list, and publicly insulted you.=20 First, let me say that someone forwarded you one of my letters from = the lute list in which I was asking about copyrights etc. Of which I = really know nothing about. I asked everyone's opinion about this and we = were exchanging ideas etc. I also had no idea that the process of = photographing these manuscripts was so involved. In the end someone = suggested that I contact you directly, which I did asking your = permission as you know. I wrote you about an hour before I received your first letter, = mistakenly assuming this was your response to my letter, all the time = unaware that someone sent you my first letter from the lute mailing = list. I then wrote a rather insulting letter back to you in response to = my first letter. I hope this is clear for you. Now, I would like to profoundly apologize to you, I deeply regret = what I said publicly about you, and hope that you can forgive me for = this. As it is late here as soon as morning comes I shall issue a public = apologies to the entire lute community, concerning my terrible unjust = letter. Thinking you read my first letter, I couldn't imagine that was = your response.I never at any point had any intentions of going = against your wishes, even if I could have gotten away with it. Who ever sent you the first letter did so with without my knowledge, = and alarmed you for no reason. I think Mantanya should mind his own = business, he causes nothing but problems.=20 Should you hold this against me I completely understand but hope = as two human beings we can come to a better place in this. And again I = humbly ask for your forgiveness. Michael Thames Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames --
Re: Facsimeles etc.
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Stewart McCoy wrote: Our medium of computers may be new, but the matter under discussion most certainly is not. There were various pirate editions of music in the 16th century, Would, say, Dowland have been surprised at 21st century culture, where 99% of music is commercial and a ready source of litigation? Has there always been music of such aggressive crassness as is heard (in abundant volume) on any city street corner? I'm not anti-Tree, but I do wonder whether this is related.
Re: Facsimiles etc.
Thanks to those who make lute compositions legitimately free downloads (I would be also willing to pay) and thanks to Ophee and Reyerman and others ( I have been and continue to be willing to pay for their facsimiles without whining). Hey Dan, nowhere did I or anyone else whine about buying nice editions. Just the opposite in fact, I very clearly said that I do, and will continue to buy them, even if I can download them for free. The real challenge for publishers like MO is to be creative in the cover art, editing, and info. quality of paper etc.It's amazing how this Monkey can elevate the physical book itself, above the content. Buy the way, do you REALLY believe showing a few original facsimiles on the web. is going to cause the entire publishing world to come to a grinding halt? I call on that Monkey, in a spirit of good will to set free a Bach lute suite to the internet. Who knows it might do wonders for his business, and he may start to actually like himself, then people might like him, and that's good for business, ghee, what a concept. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Facsimiles etc. Thank you, Mr. Reyerman. Whether the music itself is in the public domain or not, reproducing/distributing the work of others (in this case, Mr. Reyerman's production and publication of a facsimile) without compensation or permission is disrespectful as well as unethical. Thanks to those who make lute compositions legitimately free downloads (I would be also willing to pay) and thanks to Ophee and Reyerman and others ( I have been and continue to be willing to pay for their facsimiles without whining). Dan Hill Chadds Ford, Pennsylvania. --
Re: Falce and unperfect: was: Facsimeles etc.
Here are the Broude Bros contacts: Broude Brothers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Broude Brothers Limited 141 White Oaks Road Williamstown, MA 01267 Dr. Ronald Broude, Dr. Gwen Broude Phone: (413) 458-8131 (800) 225 3197 Fax: (413) 458-5242 GJC Date sent: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:24:38 - To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: Falce and unperfect: was: Facsimeles etc. Dear Tony, If you wanted, you could probably track down an address for Broude Bros via the Internet. I'm afraid I don't know what the legal situation is in America. We usually rely on Howard Posner's expertise when it comes to legal matters. If I remember right, his last e-mail on this subject seemed to suggest that the situation wasn't absolutely clear. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 1:08 PM Subject: Falce and unperfect: was: Facsimeles etc. I think the same was true of the Quarto editions of Shakespeare. Where do Broude Performers' facsimiles fit in to this? I have their Lachrimae table book (price in ink on the inside cover). Neither the publisher's name nor a copyright mark appear anywhere in the book. I do not have any intention of publishing any part of it on Internet - (it's mine 'cos I paid for it), but if I had, and wanted to ask their permission, I would find it very difficult as I can't imagine a letter to 'Performers' Facsimiles, New York' would get there easily. Is this a question of US law, or is there a fundamental difference in policy? Tony
Re: Facsimeles etc.
At 09:18 AM 12/3/2003 -0500, Doctor Oakroot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is a book, and it was made from scratch by one person who invested a great deal of time and money in creating it. What a load of crap! Making a book is a manufacturing operation and, per se, does not involve any creativity. So is making a lute. Incidentally, if Michael does not seem to understand the degree of mendacity involved in his stance on this issue, perhaps he ought to look at his own web page where he sells, for good money, plans of historical instruments. He went to museums, obtained official permission from curators, spent many hours in drawing these plans, and perhaps not a small amount of money in travel and lodging expenses. He charges $40.- per plan which is not a large amount of money, but certainly not one a poor lute maker in the Ukraine or Zimbabwe can afford. So what will be Michael's reaction if someone bought the plans from him and proceeded to post them on the WEB for free download by indigenous lute makers? Surely Michael Thames cannot possibly claim copyright or patent protection of the design of a Venere lute? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Facsimeles etc.
At 12:32 AM 12/3/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: where did I publicly declare that I intend to rip him off Those are you words. They are indeed. Considering your proposal, a rip-off operation is actually a mild and forgiving expletive. At no time did I say I would post the facsimiles regardless of Albert's wishes, and quite frankly I won't, based not so much on legality, but to respect his wishes. You still do not seem to understand that Albert's wishes in this point are entirely besides the point. Many of us, scholars, publishers, performers, teachers, who have had occasion in the past to request permission from libraries, always had to accept a condition imposed by the library that the material will be used specifically for the purpose for which it was obtained, and under no circumstances one could make copies for other people, without the library's permission and agreement. This is not a legal condition, but a practical one. Those who defy the library's wishes, shoot themselves in the foot as they will surely black listed for any future material. Besides, each time this happens, the fee for bona fide researchers goes up. years ago I used to get copies from the British Library for a couple of shillings a page. Now the fee is 25 GBP per page. Albert cannot possibly give you permission to do what you want to do, since this would be a violation of his agreement with the library. Neither can Frank Koonce give you permission to copy _his_ facsimile of the same manuscript. The only person who can give you such permission is the librarian. What's so difficult about writing a letter and asking for it? In the end I don't want to piss off anymore human beings,than I have to, except you! I asked some alarming questions again out of my naivety which you seem to enjoy pointing out. Your questions were not alarming. They were plain stupid because they implied scavenging the work of someone else. Let me give you a taste of what this sounds like: Would you mind if I bought from you a set of plans for the Venere lute and posted it on my web site for free download by indigenous poor lute makers world wide? Also, concerning young guitars students, I have noticed that hardly any of them play baroque or ren music these, it's mostly modern. Thank you for stating the obvious. I have been in this business for 48 years by now and I am acutely aware of this. But this is not the forum to discuss this issue. I suggest you log on to rec.music.classical.guitar and check out their archives (on Google Groups) for the last ten years, and see how many times I, and many others, have discussed this issue. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Assorted Questions
At 05:56 03-12-2003 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It occurred to me that Hans Judenkunig might have been a converted Jew (my somewhat elderly 'Grove' has nothing to say about his origins). Certainly converted Jews were frequently given names that made their origins clear to one and all. When the Jews were finally allowed out of the ghettos in the 19th century, particularly in Germany/Austria, they were allowed to purchase a family name. The less they could afford, the (literally) sillier (silly that is, in German) the name they were allocated. So poor Jews given names like Zwirnnadel (Threadneedle), or suchlike, while those better off were allowed to call themselves Rothschild. Only an idea, but the name 'Judenkunig' is so unlikely (certainly in my studies of German culture I've never come across one like it), that I just wondered whether this could be the reason. Cheers Tom Hans Dagobert Bruger, in his Schule des Lautenspiels, Wolfenbuettel 1926, explains the name Judenkunig in this way: Der auffallende Name Judenkunig oder Judenkuenig (d.i. Juden-Koenig) erklaert sich daraus, dass ein Ahnherr dieses Namens ihn als Beinamen wegen seiner Mitwirkung bei Passionsspielen in der Rolle des Christus oder Judenkoenigs empfing. The remarkable name Judenkunig or Judenkoenig (i.e. Jew-King) is explained by the fact, that a predecessor was given this name as a nick-name, due to his participation in passion plays in the role of Christ, King of Jews. (my translation.) Chordially, Arne Keller.
Re: Facsimeles etc.
Incidentally, if Michael does not seem to understand the degree of mendacity involved in his stance on this issue, perhaps he ought to look at his own web page where he sells, for good money, plans of historical instruments I Agree, Monkey, they cost me $20.00 to Xerox, buy a tube and ship worldwide, not mention the cost of travel, expertise involved, in drawing them up. But the shocking part Mr. Monkey is there's NO COPYRIGHT ...written anywhere on those plans. You buy one set, and that's all you pay, I don;to charge people 10% every they make a lute. So that means you are free to make copies and give them to your friends. So you see I am being true to my ideals, And if you would like a set I will send them to you free of charge. And for the record, there kind of like baseball cards I trade them for other lute plans, I've never sold a set to anyone, as a matter of fact I've given both the Boston Museum of Fine arts and Yale copies to sell as a donation to their foundations. I've also given them to 4 or 5 other lutemakers, so as not to hold a monopoly on them, like you. I call on you to do the same! you hypocrite! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:35 AM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. At 09:18 AM 12/3/2003 -0500, Doctor Oakroot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is a book, and it was made from scratch by one person who invested a great deal of time and money in creating it. What a load of crap! Making a book is a manufacturing operation and, per se, does not involve any creativity. So is making a lute. Incidentally, if Michael does not seem to understand the degree of mendacity involved in his stance on this issue, perhaps he ought to look at his own web page where he sells, for good money, plans of historical instruments. He went to museums, obtained official permission from curators, spent many hours in drawing these plans, and perhaps not a small amount of money in travel and lodging expenses. He charges $40.- per plan which is not a large amount of money, but certainly not one a poor lute maker in the Ukraine or Zimbabwe can afford. So what will be Michael's reaction if someone bought the plans from him and proceeded to post them on the WEB for free download by indigenous lute makers? Surely Michael Thames cannot possibly claim copyright or patent protection of the design of a Venere lute? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Arrangements (Was facsimiles)
At 10:43 AM 12/3/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, but you are believed to be a publisher of commercial ARRANGEMENTS. I do not wish to open a second can of worms, but earlier I have expressed an opinion that an arrangement, although it is not a facsimile, should carry only a minimal price tag, because it is basically someone else's music, usually from public domain. Tying the price of an edition to its PD status or lack of it is not a realistic expectation. The only difference between publishing an original work or an arrangement (transcription etc), is the fact that the publisher must pay the composer a royalty on paper sales. The normal level of such royalties in the US, is about 10% of money taken in. So if I sell an original work for $10.-, my average net receipt is about $3.- and the composer's share in this is 30 cents. If I sell a PD edition of the same size and list price, my costs of production are exactly the same, the receipt is the same, and I still must pay the same level of royalty to the _editor_ who did the work for me. Some of these editors are members of this group. Sometimes, not very often, the editor is me. I enjoy those 30 cents I receive for my work. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Falce and unperfect: was: Facsimeles etc.
Thanks, but it wasn't really point - as I said, I don't intend distributing what I've got, with or without permission. It just struck me as odd that the edition was so completely anonymous, and I wondered why. Tony - Original Message - From: Dr. Gordon J. Callon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Falce and unperfect: was: Facsimeles etc. Here are the Broude Bros contacts: Broude Brothers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Broude Brothers Limited 141 White Oaks Road Williamstown, MA 01267 Dr. Ronald Broude, Dr. Gwen Broude Phone: (413) 458-8131 (800) 225 3197 Fax: (413) 458-5242 GJC Date sent: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:24:38 - To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: Falce and unperfect: was: Facsimeles etc. Dear Tony, If you wanted, you could probably track down an address for Broude Bros via the Internet. I'm afraid I don't know what the legal situation is in America. We usually rely on Howard Posner's expertise when it comes to legal matters. If I remember right, his last e-mail on this subject seemed to suggest that the situation wasn't absolutely clear. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 1:08 PM Subject: Falce and unperfect: was: Facsimeles etc. I think the same was true of the Quarto editions of Shakespeare. Where do Broude Performers' facsimiles fit in to this? I have their Lachrimae table book (price in ink on the inside cover). Neither the publisher's name nor a copyright mark appear anywhere in the book. I do not have any intention of publishing any part of it on Internet - (it's mine 'cos I paid for it), but if I had, and wanted to ask their permission, I would find it very difficult as I can't imagine a letter to 'Performers' Facsimiles, New York' would get there easily. Is this a question of US law, or is there a fundamental difference in policy? Tony
Re: Facsimeles etc.
At 10:53 AM 12/3/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I Agree, Monkey, they cost me $20.00 to Xerox, buy a tube and ship worldwide, not mention the cost of travel, expertise involved, in drawing them up. But the shocking part Mr. Monkey is there's NO COPYRIGHT written anywhere on those plans. You buy one set, and that's all you pay, I don;to charge people 10% every they make a lute. So that means you are free to make copies and give them to your friends. So you see I am being true to my ideals, And if you would like a set I will send them to you free of charge. That's very noble of you. Let me suggest that if indeed you are true to your ideals, you post them for free on _your_ web site. You don't know how to fit them on standard printer paper? I'll be happy to help you there. And for the record, there kind of like baseball cards I trade them for other lute plans, I've never sold a set to anyone, as a matter of fact I've given both the Boston Museum of Fine arts and Yale copies to sell as a donation to their foundations. I've also given them to 4 or 5 other lutemakers, so as not to hold a monopoly on them, like you. I call on you to do the same! you hypocrite! Sorry, I have no idea what baseball cards are. Outside my frame of reference. In 38 years in this US of A, I still do not understand what's happening on a baseball field and what's involved around that game. And what monopoly do I hold that you are referring to? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Commerciality in historical music.
Modern music is highly commercial. A typical modern person might go a year, hearing music only from professional musicians. Music is encoded onto plastic, shrink-wrapped, and professionally mass- marketed. Its market value is protected by litigation. Concert tickets are sold by anonymous corporations, and concert tours are managed by professional tour managers. To what extent is this industrialization of music a modern phenomenon? Would typical people and lutenists of the lute age (1500-1700) have been confounded by a world where music is something which made and sold by strangers?
Re: Facsimeles, etc
No, but you are believed to be a publisher of commercial ARRANGEMENTS. Not exactly. I self publish a few things for the lute that I WROTE and some that I arranged, melodies that I harmonized and added variations to. There is little market for such material from lutenists. Not the same as selling facsililes. I mostly license my pieces to a publisher and they sell them. This is what I do for a living. I'm a full time composer and arranger. I have many downloads of lute pieces on my site where there is no charge. Good! I do not wish to open a second can of worms, but earlier I have expressed an opinion that an arrangement, although it is not a facsimile, should carry only a minimal price tag, because it is basically someone else's music, usually from public domain. RT Then make arrangements and sell them for a minimal price or give them away. Simple And that' what I have been doing for years, no fee. RT
Re: Facsimeles etc.
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Matanya Ophee wrote: ... always had to accept a condition imposed by the library that the material will be used specifically for the purpose for which it was obtained, What is the library's motivation for this? I would have thought that a non-profit library would be happy to promote the spread of non-copyright material.
Re: an apologie
I wrote you about an hour before I received your first letter, = mistakenly assuming this was your response to my letter, all the time = unaware that someone sent you my first letter from the lute mailing = list. Uncle Albert IS ON the lute-list. There is no benefit of a doubt called for. RT
Re: Commerciality in historical music.
I think they would be astounded that a performance of John Dowland's lute solos could be had for say $15 USD. Especially when Dowland played for royalty and the upper classes (ie: made some money doing it). It's funny, but a photographer or painter can now (and in the past) charge hundreds or thousands of dollars for their work. Why don't serious musicians do the same? Each cd is a work of art that costs something -- each one could be different and hand made. I know it bugs me to work 6 months on a cd and only get $15 a copy. Without serious distribution, it is sold at a loss. I'll bet that most of today's best players never sell enough cd's to cover the costs of aquiring the music, learning the music, recording, packaging and marketing. Most people think they can make money selling cd's of their work, but they forget to account for the time it takes to get the material ready for recording -- this usually makes any profits go away very quickly. I think our predecessors would be astounded and horrified at how disposable and cheap the music has become. --- Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Modern music is highly commercial. A typical modern person might go a year, hearing music only from professional musicians. Music is encoded onto plastic, shrink-wrapped, and professionally mass- marketed. Its market value is protected by litigation. Concert tickets are sold by anonymous corporations, and concert tours are managed by professional tour managers. To what extent is this industrialization of music a modern phenomenon? Would typical people and lutenists of the lute age (1500-1700) have been confounded by a world where music is something which made and sold by strangers? = web: http://www.christopherschaub.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RV: Facsimeles etc.
Dear Stewart, Roman, and all, Poor countries and access to resources: It is a difficult matter indeed. What to do about it? I'm in the other end of the spectrum, the one benefited from the free online resources or the donations. And the one doing most illegal actions. I'll tell you what happens down here (Argentina): we freely exchange sheet music in any form, especially by photocopies, but also--and by those of us who are lucky enough to have a computer--by pdf files, by sharing links to web sites we found with sheet music, etc. That's the only way we're able to access material to produce guitarists, lutenists, and musicians in general. Some of us fortunate to have money to make copies or connect to the Internet: many students don't, and we have to donate photocopies for them, they're that poor. Fortunately, they don't have to pay for lessons, the Conservatory is free and paid by the government. But sometimes, at the beginning of the year, you can find students (9 or 10 year old) who go to the small kitchen in the Conservatory, hoping to get some food, food they don't get at home. Yes, it's that bad. BUT, some of us would be able to afford to buy a few items a year. We don't do it, because we're caught in this photocopying frenzy. And that's why you won't see any new editions coming from Argentina: we made publishers die, publishers like Ricordi Americana, who once had a incredible catalog of works. Composers in Argentina know this situation well, and give away copies of their works to anyone who shows interest in them without thinking it twice. And publish their works in foreign countries. About donations: I'm thankful to persons who are willing to donate items. But I don't think we would be receiving the amounts we need. And I'm sure anything you donate would be copied a thousand times, so keep it in mind, it would surely end up as more illegal copies in the world, not less. Of course, I'm speaking about musicians in general and guitarists in particular. There are no lutenists around here. So, I don't know what should be done. I appreciate the time anyone takes to think about this. Hernan Mouro. Conservatorio de Musica de Bahia Blanca, Argentina. PS: I wish libraries had online facsimiles with free access themselves. No one could complain about that. Dear Roman, I have every sympathy with what you say. Those of us who own good instruments and expensive music are most fortunate, whether it came by luck, by hard work, or because we happen to live in affluent societies. Of course, I would love to own more instruments, better instruments, more music (particularly lute facsimiles), but even though I cannot afford these things, what I have already is far more than many others may have.
Re: Facsimeles etc.
That's very noble of you. Let me suggest that if indeed you are true to your ideals, you post them for free on _your_ web site. You don't know how to fit them on standard printer paper? I'll be happy to help you there That is a most generous offer! I will take you up on that. Just the other day I was wondering if that was possible. You have my word, I will do it, and offer them for free. However, no offence but I think you and I won't make a good match as far as a teacher/student relationship, maybe someone else can help me with that. I keeping in the same spirit, may I call on you to have a free download of a facsimile of the Bach/Weyrauch tablatures, and don't give me that crap that you don't own the rights, If you can sell them you certainly can give them away. Sorry, I have no idea what baseball cards are. Outside my frame of reference. In 38 years in this US of A, I still do not understand what's happening on a baseball field and what's involved around that game. And what monopoly do I hold that you are referring to I would simply define monopoly, as one person having all the cookies. And maybe someone else can help you with baseball cards, that's really over my head. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 12:10 PM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. At 10:53 AM 12/3/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I Agree, Monkey, they cost me $20.00 to Xerox, buy a tube and ship worldwide, not mention the cost of travel, expertise involved, in drawing them up. But the shocking part Mr. Monkey is there's NO COPYRIGHT written anywhere on those plans. You buy one set, and that's all you pay, I don;to charge people 10% every they make a lute. So that means you are free to make copies and give them to your friends. So you see I am being true to my ideals, And if you would like a set I will send them to you free of charge. That's very noble of you. Let me suggest that if indeed you are true to your ideals, you post them for free on _your_ web site. You don't know how to fit them on standard printer paper? I'll be happy to help you there. And for the record, there kind of like baseball cards I trade them for other lute plans, I've never sold a set to anyone, as a matter of fact I've given both the Boston Museum of Fine arts and Yale copies to sell as a donation to their foundations. I've also given them to 4 or 5 other lutemakers, so as not to hold a monopoly on them, like you. I call on you to do the same! you hypocrite! Sorry, I have no idea what baseball cards are. Outside my frame of reference. In 38 years in this US of A, I still do not understand what's happening on a baseball field and what's involved around that game. And what monopoly do I hold that you are referring to? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: an apologie
I wrote you about an hour before I received your first letter, = mistakenly assuming this was your response to my letter, all the time = unaware that someone sent you my first letter from the lute mailing = list. Uncle Albert IS ON the lute-list. There is no benefit of a doubt called for. RT Roman, interesting, I did give him the benefit of the doubt. Another person wrote me privately saying he was on the list as well. If indeed this is true, I may be coming around to your way of thinking. I hate dishonesty, I guess this sets another precedent, for things yet to come. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 12:52 PM Subject: Re: an apologie I wrote you about an hour before I received your first letter, = mistakenly assuming this was your response to my letter, all the time = unaware that someone sent you my first letter from the lute mailing = list. Uncle Albert IS ON the lute-list. There is no benefit of a doubt called for. RT
Re: Assorted Questions
It occurred to me that Hans Judenkunig might have been a converted Jew (my somewhat elderly 'Grove' has nothing to say about his origins). Hans Bahlow, Deutsches Namenlexikon, 1992 (15,000 entries), p. 265, explains that Jud may have been Jewish or non-Jewish. As for non-Jewish, Jud as well as compound names like Judenkunig may be taken as hints of relations with Jews (commercial, I assume). As opposed to that, converted Jews in those days would rather have avoided hints of their provenances, I suppose. However, Bruger's explanation appears to me as guesswork as I couldn't find his explanation in current related literature (namenlexika). Hans Dagobert Bruger, in his Schule des Lautenspiels, Wolfenbuettel 1926, explains the name Judenkunig in this way: The remarkable name Judenkunig or Judenkoenig (i.e. Jew-King) is explained by the fact, that a predecessor was given this name as a nick-name, due to his participation in passion plays in the role of Christ, King of Jews. -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Facsimeles etc.
I Agree, Monkey, they cost me $20.00 to Xerox, Michael, MO is neither hominid nor a simian. He is not a marsupial either [unlike Michael Stitt]. Considering that his cultural sensitivity is that of a rhinocerotide he is suspected to be of that genus. I personally believe that from biochemical viewpoint MO is simply a mixture of fecal matter and yeast. That is the actual method for obtaining MO in laboratory conditions. I am not joking, that what we as children did to the outhouses of reviled neighbors. RT Roman, I finally had a laugh of a lifetime, and I'm on the floor, thanks I couldn't have said it better. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 12:48 PM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. I Agree, Monkey, they cost me $20.00 to Xerox, Michael, MO is neither hominid nor a simian. He is not a marsupial either [unlike Michael Stitt]. Considering that his cultural sensitivity is that of a rhinocerotide he is suspected to be of that genus. I personally believe that from biochemical viewpoint MO is simply a mixture of fecal matter and yeast. That is the actual method for obtaining MO in laboratory conditions. I am not joking, that what we as children did to the outhouses of reviled neighbors. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: Facsimeles etc.
I have a good friend who runs a major library nearby and hear these same concerns all of the time. My concern is where the need to make lute music available and this funding crisis intersect. Some of the prices I've been quoted to obtain a license from these libraries is really outrageous. To the point that I don't see how any publisher can make money or break even paying these fees. So, this licensing practice discourages lute music from being published, especially obscure sources. --- Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 12:24 PM 12/3/2003 -0600, Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Matanya Ophee wrote: ... always had to accept a condition imposed by the library that the material will be used specifically for the purpose for which it was obtained, What is the library's motivation for this? I would have thought that a non-profit library would be happy to promote the spread of non-copyright material. I would have thought so too, but in the real world, there are two forces at work. Some librarians think that just because they own the keys to the library, they own culture. You run into types like this every so often. But the real motivation is that no matter what country, no matter what political systems, libraries are under funded and they need to generate income so they can pay the overhead. That's the case with public libraries such as the BL, BN, LoC, etc. In the case of privately endowed libraries, the motivation is even stronger. That's the Golden Rule: He who owns the Gold, makes the Rules. The gold in our case are the manuscripts and old editions we seek. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com = web: http://www.christopherschaub.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Facsimeles etc.
At 01:00 PM 12/3/2003 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a good friend who runs a major library nearby and hear these same concerns all of the time. My concern is where the need to make lute music available and this funding crisis intersect. Some of the prices I've been quoted to obtain a license from these libraries is really outrageous. To the point that I don't see how any publisher can make money or break even paying these fees. So, this licensing practice discourages lute music from being published, especially obscure sources. Thank you for understanding the issue. This is a vicious circle. Lutenists balk at having to pay for books, preferring free photocopies ripped off publishers editions. Libraries are thus deprived of money they consider is due to them, so they raise the fee for making their material available, to the point that publishers no longer can afford it, thus cease publishing. No more lute music. All this is fine when the entire repertoire is known and exists in some form that can be exchanged for free. But should new material come to light, there is no chance it will enter into general circulation any time soon. Viz. the availability to the Francesco Castelfranco new discoveries. And this is only one of the more recent discoveries that will be a long time in hiding from the lute community. Hernan Mouro just gave us a perfect picture how this cycle killed the entire Argentine publishing industry. It will happen here too. Just give it time and enough phoney altruists. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: falce and unperfect
Dear Tony, It is the falce and unperfect aspect of modern editions, which make me want to look at facsimiles. I want to get as close as possible to the original text to learn as much as I can about the music. It's an academic thing, I suppose. During the recent thread some people have complained that some facsimiles are no more than photocopies. Certainly the quality varies from one publisher to the next. It seems ironic that Minkoff editions, which are often the most expensive, often have no editorial material, or at most a perfunctory list of contents. Perhaps they make up for that deficit by reproducing so much music. I have a facsimile edition of some baroque music published by Schott, much of which I can hardly read at all. Boethius facsimiles, on the other hand, are very legible, and have extremely useful editorial material - concordances, information on dating, watermarks, etc. Editions Ophee have useful information supplied by the editors too, and the quality of the paper is excellent. The Welde facsimile is not yet ready to be published, but we are well on the way. My wish is that people should be able to read every note in the facsimile, including the notes which are now invisible, and so we propose including in the introduction detailed information about illegible passages. I don't know if this has ever been done before, at least to the extent we propose doing. For those who are unaware of the significance of your question about Diego Cantalupi's pdf of Kapsberger III, I should explain that his recent CD of music from Kapsberger's _Terzo Libro_ contains a facsimile of the music, which you can read on your computer screen. I imagine one's attitude to copyright would be no different for this unusual CD than for any other. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 1:25 PM Subject: falce and unperfect Just as an aside, where does Diego Cantalupi's pdf of Kapsberger III fit in? Unlike Stewart, I wouldn't want a lot of facsimiles, as the ones I have or have had I find difficult to read (I think this comes out in the practical reproduction difficulties both with Welde and with Tree editions), not to mention a bit falce and unperfect. I therefore need to transcribe them, hopefully without error... Tony
Re: Facsimeles etc.
What a load of crap! Making a book is a manufacturing operation and, per se, does not involve any creativity. So is making a lute. Well Monkey, you certainly put your tail in your mouth this time, I wonder how many people would agree with.that! Stick to what you know best, how to revel in the creativity of others, and then stiff the rest of us! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:35 AM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. At 09:18 AM 12/3/2003 -0500, Doctor Oakroot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is a book, and it was made from scratch by one person who invested a great deal of time and money in creating it. What a load of crap! Making a book is a manufacturing operation and, per se, does not involve any creativity. So is making a lute. Incidentally, if Michael does not seem to understand the degree of mendacity involved in his stance on this issue, perhaps he ought to look at his own web page where he sells, for good money, plans of historical instruments. He went to museums, obtained official permission from curators, spent many hours in drawing these plans, and perhaps not a small amount of money in travel and lodging expenses. He charges $40.- per plan which is not a large amount of money, but certainly not one a poor lute maker in the Ukraine or Zimbabwe can afford. So what will be Michael's reaction if someone bought the plans from him and proceeded to post them on the WEB for free download by indigenous lute makers? Surely Michael Thames cannot possibly claim copyright or patent protection of the design of a Venere lute? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Assorted Questions
Mathias writes: 'As opposed to that, converted Jews in those days would rather have avoided hints of their provenance'. Of course I know what you mean, but Jews who converted (or were forced to convert) were often not given the chance to hide their origins, as I know from many Jewish friends, whose names were given them (on payment of the appropriate amount of money) after the emancipation from the ghettos. Admittedly, that was a few centuries after Hans Judenkunig, but it just made me wonder. Cheers Tom --
Re: Facsimiles etc.
The real challenge for publishers like MO is to be creative in the cover art, editing, and info. quality of paper etc.It's amazing how this Monkey can elevate the physical book itself, above the content. Not in MO's hands. He made the most execrable cover for MoscowWeissMs. RT
meeting fellow lutenists
Earlier this week I spent three days for work in Germany. My brand new lute= =20 and I had some enjoyable meetings with some fellow lute player colleagues fr= om=20 this lute forum.=A0 First, on Saturday night I had a delightful dinner (thi= rd=20 time this year!) with Thomas Schall who is becoming like an old friend to=20 me.=A0=A0 So much to talk about and to share in our enthusiasm for the lute.= =A0 But this=20 time we drove south of Frankfurt to Aschaffenburg in northern Bavaria to din= e=20 in a baroque (17th C.) castle with his friend Meinhard Gerlach, a very fine=20 lutenist (and guitarist) and a composer of new works for the 13 course lute=20= and=20 for lute and soprano as attested by his marvelous CD called Silence=20 (available from A HREF=3Dwww.lautenist.de)www.lautenist.de)/A. I even= took out my lute after dinner and played=20 it briefly in an empty arched-ceilinged room, so tempted was I by the=20 accoustics and the setting, exotic for any American! Then, the next day I met lutelisters Stephan Olbertz and Rainer aus dem=20 Spring for a wonderful read-through of the Vallet lute quartets at the flat=20= of Mark=20 Wheeler.=A0 I met all three for the first time and the dinner conversation=20 afterwards was inspirational and mind-opening.=A0=A0 Hats off, too, to Marti= n Shepard=20 who made several of the exquisite lutes we played on that evening! I encourage all to pay attention to Mark Wheeler=B4s new renaissance trio=20 called Pantagruel, too!=A0 (www.pantagruel.de) who will perform in London Ap= ril 17th. I understand, too, that they will soon release their first CD, but for now=20 there are mp3 files to listen to on their website. Mark is a great musician= =20 with many original ideas at his fingertips. He is a wonderful improviser on= the=20 lute. The power of the Internet to share and exchange ideas and information on thi= s=20 list is, at times, unsurpassable, but never a true replacement for meeting=20 (and playing music with!) others in person.=A0 This list is a great way to e= nable=20 such meetings when one is fortunate enough to be in the right place at the=20 right time.=A0=A0 It is fascinating to see and hear other players on differe= nt=20 continents dealing with the same issues in lutes, music, technical matters,=20 interpretation, and repertoire. The same goes for the times over the last y= ear and a=20 half when I've been priviledged to meet fellow lutelisters Ed Durbrow, David= e=20 Rebuffa, Stewart McCoy, Martin Shepard, and David van Edwards in their=20 respective countries. - Kenneth Be (Cleveland) --
Re: Assorted Questions
Arne Keller wrote: Hans Dagobert Bruger, in his Schule des Lautenspiels, Wolfenbuettel 1926, explains the name Judenkunig in this way: Der auffallende Name Judenkunig oder Judenkuenig (d.i. Juden-Koenig) erklaert sich daraus, dass ein Ahnherr dieses Namens ihn als Beinamen wegen seiner Mitwirkung bei Passionsspielen in der Rolle des Christus oder Judenkoenigs empfing. The remarkable name Judenkunig or Judenkoenig (i.e. Jew-King) is explained by the fact, that a predecessor was given this name as a nick-name, due to his participation in passion plays in the role of Christ, King of Jews. In his article about Judenkunig Rudolf Henning mentions that a Hartmann Schmid (possibly JK's grandfather) is mentioned as called Judenküng in 1420 and 9 years later as Hartmann Jundenküng. Apparently he adopted his nickname as his official name. Rainer ads PS See LS journal 1976.
Re: Facsimeles etc.
never owned a set of facsimiles of the Bach-Weyrauch myself. All I have are those included in the Koonce edition. OK then those will do just fine. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. At 01:43 PM 12/3/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's very noble of you. Let me suggest that if indeed you are true to your ideals, you post them for free on _your_ web site. You don't know how to fit them on standard printer paper? I'll be happy to help you there That is a most generous offer! I will take you up on that. Just the other day I was wondering if that was possible. You have my word, I will do it, and offer them for free. However, no offence but I think you and I won't make a good match as far as a teacher/student relationship, maybe someone else can help me with that. I am sure there are many who can do this. The idea is very simple: you divide the plan drawing to segments that can fit a standard printer page size, bearing in mind the difference between the US and the European standards sizes. Pick the smaller of the two. The segments have to be a bit smaller than the selected paper size, since no printers can print a bleed, i.e., to the edge of the paper and beyond. Then you save the scans as PDF files, and some kind of an index which will tell the downloader in what sequence they make up the plan. All they have to do when they downloaded the bunch, is trim out the margins and paste the individual pages together. Rube Goldbergish, no doubt, but simple. I keeping in the same spirit, may I call on you to have a free download of a facsimile of the Bach/Weyrauch tablatures, and don't give me that crap that you don't own the rights, If you can sell them you certainly can give them away. I sell nothing of the kind. You must be confusing me with somebody else. I already told you that there are no Lute Suites in my catalogue, and I have never owned a set of facsimiles of the Bach-Weyrauch myself. All I have are those included in the Koonce edition. I suggest you apply to the Neil Kjos Publishing Company in San Diego, those who published Frank Koonce edition. Just one little friendly advise: this is a very large company, much larger than my own little one man operation. Don't take them for granted. Sorry, I have no idea what baseball cards are. Outside my frame of reference. In 38 years in this US of A, I still do not understand what's happening on a baseball field and what's involved around that game. And what monopoly do I hold that you are referring to I would simply define monopoly, as one person having all the cookies. And what cookies might these be? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Assorted Questions
[EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as I know from many Jewish friends, whose names were given them (on payment of the appropriate amount of money) after the emancipation from the ghettos. Hmm. Just how old are you?
Re: Facsimeles etc.
On Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003, at 23:04 Europe/Warsaw, Matanya Ophee wrote: But should new material come to light, there is no chance it will enter into general circulation any time soon. Viz. the availability to the Francesco Castelfranco new discoveries. And this is only one of the more recent discoveries that will be a long time in hiding from the lute community. What are the new discoveries of Francesco Castelfranco? What are the other more recent discoveries?? Jerzy
Re: RV: Facsimeles etc.
Poor countries and access to resources: It is a difficult matter indeed. What to do about it? I'm in the other end of the spectrum, the one benefited from the free online resources or the donations. And the one doing most illegal actions. I'll tell you what happens down here (Argentina): we freely exchange sheet music in any form, especially by photocopies, but also--and by those of us who are lucky enough to have a computer--by pdf files, by sharing links to web sites we found with sheet music, etc. That's the only way we're able to access material to produce guitarists, lutenists, and musicians in general. Some of us fortunate to have money to make copies or connect to the Internet: many students don't, and we have to donate photocopies for them, they're that poor. Fortunately, they don't have to pay for lessons, the Conservatory is free and paid by the government. But sometimes, at the beginning of the year, you can find students (9 or 10 year old) who go to the small kitchen in the Conservatory, hoping to get some food, food they don't get at home. Yes, it's that bad. BUT, some of us would be able to afford to buy a few items a year. We don't do it, because we're caught in this photocopying frenzy. And that's why you won't see any new editions coming from Argentina: we made publishers die, publishers like Ricordi Americana, who once had a incredible catalog of works. Composers in Argentina know this situation well, and give away copies of their works to anyone who shows interest in them without thinking it twice. And publish their works in foreign countries. Somehow I don't believe that the musicians are to blame for this. It seemed that A LOT of music down there was being put out by Warner Brothers South American division. So I'm sure they contributed to the demise of local houses. About donations: I'm thankful to persons who are willing to donate items. But I don't think we would be receiving the amounts we need. And I'm sure anything you donate would be copied a thousand times, so keep it in mind, it would surely end up as more illegal copies in the world, not less. Of course, I'm speaking about musicians in general and guitarists in particular. There are no lutenists around here. There should be half a dozen around metropolitan Buenos Aires, right? And at least one in M __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org ar del Plata. RT
Re: Facsimeles etc.
At 05:12 PM 12/3/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: never owned a set of facsimiles of the Bach-Weyrauch myself. All I have are those included in the Koonce edition. OK then those will do just fine. You don't need me for that. You can buy this book from all the usual sources. In case of difficulty, you can buy it directly from the publisher at: http://www.kjos.com/ Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Facsimeles etc.
At 05:12 PM 12/3/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: never owned a set of facsimiles of the Bach-Weyrauch myself. All I have are those included in the Koonce edition. OK then those will do just fine. You don't need me for that. You can buy this book from all the usual sources. In case of difficulty, you can buy it directly from the publisher I thought we were exchanging free downloads, yours for mine. YOU HYPOCRITE!!! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 7:29 PM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. At 05:12 PM 12/3/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: never owned a set of facsimiles of the Bach-Weyrauch myself. All I have are those included in the Koonce edition. OK then those will do just fine. You don't need me for that. You can buy this book from all the usual sources. In case of difficulty, you can buy it directly from the publisher at: http://www.kjos.com/ Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Facsimeles etc.
At 07:53 PM 12/3/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 05:12 PM 12/3/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: never owned a set of facsimiles of the Bach-Weyrauch myself. All I have are those included in the Koonce edition. OK then those will do just fine. You don't need me for that. You can buy this book from all the usual sources. In case of difficulty, you can buy it directly from the publisher I thought we were exchanging free downloads, yours for mine. YOU HYPOCRITE!!! Better watch it fellow, your scatological delusions are getting ahead of you. You cannot possibly expect me to commit what I consider a crime, by photocopying a page from a book published by a friend of mine, who happens to be a member of this here list, and send it to you in exchange for a download that does not exist yet on your web site and for which I have absolutely no need whatsoever. I am not a lute maker, and I am not even a guitar maker. I am a guitar collector. I buy my guitars from people like you. Just got a new one a couple of weeks ago from a young man in Quebec for whom I predict a great future. Name is Jean Rompré. Care to hear what it sounds like? go to my web site and look in GALI for Articles with Music. So I guess if you want a copy of the the Bach-Weybrauch manuscript, and you care to tangle with a large American corporation, you'll just have to pay up front $24.95. You can afford it. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
RE: RV: Facsimeles etc.
Somehow I don't believe that the musicians are to blame for this. It seemed that A LOT of music down there was being put out by Warner Brothers South American division. So I'm sure they contributed to the demise of local houses. I'm not blaming composers for publishing abroad. They publish where they can. I blame myself for not supporting local companies, or even foreign companies, by not buying what I would be able to buy. Does Warner own more than Editorial Lagos? I must confess I know nothing about that. There are no lutenists around here. There should be half a dozen around metropolitan Buenos Aires, right? And at least one in Mar del Plata. Yes, and that's why Hoppy comes to Argentina every now and then, we're all very grateful to him for that. What I meant was, I'm not asking for donations for my Conservatory's library or for me, there are no lutenists in Bahia Blanca (700km away from Buenos Aires, 400km away from Mar del Plata). I wish there were. But if you want to make any donations I won't stop you. :-) Roman, you're doing enough already by making available music for download. Thanks. I have the music, I'm sorry it's not possible to download a lute. :-) Well, I'll just keep playing this stuff on the guitar, then (sorry). Regards, Hernán.
meeting other lutenists
[I apologize for the font codes in my previous message posting!=A0 Here it i= s=20 again, cleaned up]: Earlier this week I spent three days for work in Germany. My brand new lute and I had some enjoyable meetings with some fellow lute player colleagues=20 from this lute forum First, on Saturday night I had a delightful dinner (third time this year!) with Thomas Schall who is becoming like an old friend to=20 me.=A0=20 So much to talk about and to share in our enthusiasm for the lute. But this time we drove south of Frankfurt to Aschaffenburg in northern Bavaria to din= e in a baroque (17th C.) castle with his friend Meinhard Gerlach, a very fine lutenist (and guitarist) and a composer of new works for the 13 course lute=20 and for lute and soprano as attested by his marvelous CD called Silence=20 (available from www.lautenist.de). I even took out my lute after dinner and=20 played it briefly in an empty arched-ceilinged room, so tempted was I by the accoustics and the setting, exotic for any American! Then, the next day I met lutelisters Stephan Olbertz and Rainer aus dem=20 Spring=20 for a wonderful read-through of the Vallet lute quartets at the flat of Mark= =20 Wheeler.=20 I met all three for the first time and the dinner conversation afterwards wa= s=20 inspirational and mind-opening Hats off, too, to Martin Shepard who made=20 several of the exquisite lutes we played on that evening! I encourage all to pay attention to Mark Wheeler's new renaissance trio called Pantagruel, too! (www.pantagruel.de) who will perform in London April= =20 17th. I understand, too, that they will soon release their first CD, but for now there are mp3 files to listen to on their website. Mark is a great musician=20 with many original ideas at his fingertips. He is a wonderful improviser on the lute. The power of the Internet to share and exchange ideas and information on thi= s list is, at times, unsurpassable, but never a true replacement for meeting (and playing music with!) others in person This list is a great way to enabl= e such meetings when one is fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time It is fascinating to see and hear other players on different continents dealing with the same issues in lutes, music, technical matters, interpretation, and repertoire. The same goes for the times over the last=20 year and a half when I've been priviledged to meet fellow lutelisters Ed Durbrow, David= e Rebuffa, Stewart McCoy, Martin Shepard, and David van Edwards in their respective countries. - Kenneth Be (Cleveland) --
Re: Facsimeles etc.
Better watch it fellow, your scatological delusions are getting ahead of you. You cannot possibly expect me to commit what I consider a crime, by photocopying a page from a book published by a friend of mine never owned a set of facsimiles of the Bach-Weyrauch myself. All I have are those included in the Koonce edition. So which is it Ape, first you say you have them, now someone else has them. I don't want to exchange my plans for your music, have you been drinking agian? You called me a hypocrite for not downloading my plans for free, which I said I'd do. I challenged you do do the same with the Bach, and your weaseling your way out of it. HYPOCRITE! I buy my guitars from people like you. Just got a new one a couple of weeks ago from a young man in Quebec for whom I predict a great future. Name is Jean Rompré. Care to hear what it sounds like? Now you've done it! I'm crushed, and speechless, you went out a bought someone else's guitar, I thought we had a deal Dam it! And now your rubbing my face in it, more than I can bear. With you as his guiding light I'm sure he'll go far, No offence to your innocent victim, but I've heard enough guitar for today, thanks. How about it Ape, Free YOUR/HIS Bach, to the world! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 9:08 PM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. At 07:53 PM 12/3/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 05:12 PM 12/3/2003 -0600, Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: never owned a set of facsimiles of the Bach-Weyrauch myself. All I have are those included in the Koonce edition. OK then those will do just fine. You don't need me for that. You can buy this book from all the usual sources. In case of difficulty, you can buy it directly from the publisher I thought we were exchanging free downloads, yours for mine. YOU HYPOCRITE!!! Better watch it fellow, your scatological delusions are getting ahead of you. You cannot possibly expect me to commit what I consider a crime, by photocopying a page from a book published by a friend of mine, who happens to be a member of this here list, and send it to you in exchange for a download that does not exist yet on your web site and for which I have absolutely no need whatsoever. I am not a lute maker, and I am not even a guitar maker. I am a guitar collector. I buy my guitars from people like you. Just got a new one a couple of weeks ago from a young man in Quebec for whom I predict a great future. Name is Jean Rompré. Care to hear what it sounds like? go to my web site and look in GALI for Articles with Music. So I guess if you want a copy of the the Bach-Weybrauch manuscript, and you care to tangle with a large American corporation, you'll just have to pay up front $24.95. You can afford it. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Facsimeles etc.
To all, Am I the only one who finds the name calling, and tone of some of these e-mail exchanges offensive? It's great to be passionate and have strong feelings about a subject, but how about a modicum of civility? I know, if you don't like it, don't read it; but the subject matter is interesting, so, I read. Sincerely, James --
