Byrd
Posner, In the context of what Ness is saying, and all his previous emails trying to establish pitch notation as superior to tablature, for lutenistsI most certainly stand by what I said. He's saying that historically, novices read tab until they go on to higher forms of notation, (pitch) I suggest you go back and re read what Ness said, it's right there on paper, and Posner, you can put the dictionary aside, there are words in that sentence, even you can understand. The challenge for you, the village bore is to get beyond your contempt for me, and everything I say. From your screwy Geometry, to site reading, you attack whatever I say That would be fine and welcome, but usually you really have nothing much to say, other than to correct my spelling etc. How juvenile! Do you really believe Courperin wrote lute music? Do you really believe Byrd wrote lute music? I'll help you out here Posner, and give you a little heads uporiginal lute music is played ON the lute, and historically lutenists spoke in tab as has been the case with anybody of any significance. From Spinacino to Weiss. Ness, is rewriting lute history as we speak. He's even suggested that DAS come out with a revised edition of History of the lute! Do you agree with this? All to prove his stupid point! If we start using Ness's system of classification all music sinks into the murky water ofneither fish nor fowl. You don't need to be a musicologist to understand this mistake. As Sal pointed out Beethoven's 9th sounds very different on piano, than the original orchestral conception. In the same way Byrd's Keyboard music, sounds way different on the lute. If you listen to Byrd's keyboard music on the keyboard, the texture is much thicker, and almost impossible to play on the lute. However, lute music is very easy on the keyboard. I doubt that any keyboard player would play the exact lute version, it would sound pretty sparse, They would do an arrangement, notice I used the word arrangement, rather than transcription, in this case. Paul Odette told me that when Bach Arranged the so called e minor lute suite for keyboard, he added more chords changed the harmony, and thickened the texture to sound better on keyboard. In Nessisum, he proclaims a nihilistic doctrine , and BTW Posner, the definition of nihilism.1, a doctrine that all values are baseless, that nothing is knowable, and itself meaningless. This pretty much describes Mr. Ness's recipe for historical musical soup, yuck! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Neceffarie obferuations
In this technique, notice that the hand is very, close to the bridge. But, it is not correct to say that one gets a very thin tone. My experience is that with current string tensions similar to those of renaissance lutes, the results are not very satisfying. There are current thoughts in which baroque lutes were strung with a considerably less amount of tension that we now use. After all, lighter tension strings make a set-up which is much less wear tear on the baroque instrument, considering that the overall tension is much less I think for Toyohiko Sotoh to follow though with a recording on an original instrument warrants some consideration and thought. However don't forget that the French Baroque lute, is quite different than the German Baroque lute, in design ( string length, size etc.) and musical culture, and changing times. The French Baroque lute was already finished, by the time the German Baroque lute was in it's glory. Allot can happen in a 100 years musically speaking! It was the German Baroque lute that was left to fight it out with the keyboard, and the French B lute was obsolete 100 years or so before. Ed are you basing your theory on iconographical evidence? If so, Baron very clearly states to play half way between the rose and the bridge, at least for the German style. I think with less tension one could risk the clashing of courses, when played with any forcefulness, something that would be needed in 1750. MT - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Greg M. Silverman [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 2:51 PM Subject: Re: Neceffarie obferuations Michael, The fingers seen in most paintings of baroque lutenists are not a 90 degree angle, but not as soft an angle as for thumb under technique. You are correct, in that the thumb is seen protruding towards the rose, and that is a position seldom seen in our times. Toyohiko Satoh has changed his technique, in following closer to what icongraphical sources show us. In this technique, notice that the hand is very, very close to the bridge. But, it is not correct to say that one gets a very thin tone. My experience is that with current string tensions similar to those of renaissance lutes, the results are not very satisfying. There are current thoughts in which baroque lutes were strung with a considerably less amount of tension that we now use. After all, lighter tension strings make a set-up which is much less wear tear on the baroque instrument, considering that the overall tension is much less. Recent experiments have shown that one can get an astonishingly beautiful sound played by the bridge with a protruding thumb, at very low tensions. Case in point, listen to Toyohiko Satoh's Weichennberger CD. He plays on the bridge, with very low tension strings on an original 11 course lute by Grieff. It is definitely not a very thin tone. Also, he uses all gut with no metal at all on the strings. I am uncertain, but I think he uses only 70% of usual tensions, overall - maybe even as low as 60%. In order to make this situation (playing with technique shown on icongraphical sources) work, one needs a light tension. With heavier tension played very close to the bridge, one gets a brittle sound. But,. with slack strings, the results are very clear and beautiful. ed At 09:09 AM 7/22/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: The really strange thing is that most all thumb out, hand positions shown in paintings show the fingers at a 90 degree angle to the stings, and I've never seen anyone play this way thesedays. If you try it whether on gut or nylon one gets a very thin tone. Perhaps the trend in the early 1600's was towards a thin percussive tone? MT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Neceffarie obferuations
Christopher Schaub [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I haven't heard anyone play thumb-under faster than top rate classical or flamenco guitarists whose technique is not that different from thumb-out, especially in regards to imim The kind of speed flamenco guitarists have with imim, I believe has a great deal to do with playing with nails.Sor, wrote a duet for Aguado and himself, and gave the fast part to Agado, because he played with nails. I believe Sor played with thumb out lute technique, resting the LF on the top, and forbidding the use of A finger except in chords, and using thumb, and index ,for scales. As you can see Sor's technique influenced his composing style... very much different than Giuliani for example, which incorporates the use of scales far more than Sor. Personally, I've pondered the speed issue ( not an expert ) and believe that thumb under, has it over thumb out, for speed, but especially for acceleration and fluididity. Personally, I think Paul Odette's recordings of Dowland are unequalled. Recordings by well known players using thumb out, sound rather un- lute like after listening to Odette. Michael - Original Message - From: Christopher Schaub [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mathias RXsel [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 6:50 PM Subject: Re: Neceffarie obferuations Hi Mathias, see my comments in context below ... --- Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christopher Schaub [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I haven't heard anyone play thumb-under faster than top rate classical or flamenco guitarists whose technique is not that different from thumb-out, especially in regards to imim. that may be so, but I'm an _average_ lutenist, you see, and I can comfortably reach top speed. Thumb-in allows average lute players to keep up with the others' speed. Good point. I have a feeling we're all pretty average compared with lutenists of the past. :?) I do notice that preparing the bass with the thumb before beginning a run gives quite a bit of leverage to allow for some more speed and power with imim. Many flamenco players do this for power and speed. which has nothing to do with thumb-in/thumb-out, right? Well, preparing bass notes is a pretty big part of Baroque lute technique and can be quite helpful on lutes of greater than 8 courses. I've also heard many say that thumb-under is more fluid. Again, I'm not sure if that's really true. to be sure, it's a matter of practicing :) Yeah, it always comes down to this. I wonder if there is a lute equivalent of selling your soul or magic to get better, like the blues guitar player Robert Johnson (I think it was him)? It just requires more attention to playing legato with the left hand using thumb-out. would you mind to elaborate? Well, I feel the legato comes from playing with a very connected left hand, from note to note. The right hand is the attack, the left is the expression of the line. Both hands are involved, but I feel the left hand has a greater role or harder role with thumb-out. The only area where I think thumb-under has an advantage is to achieve that swing affect with dance pieces. (...) I think it's safe to say that thumb-under was generally used for the first 1/3 of the lute era and thumb-out for the last 2/3. So which is really the dominant technique -- or even the technique to be taught? I didn't mean to discuss which technique is preferable but whether or not there are certain technical demands that require thumb-in, or thumb-out, respectively, notwithstanding the well known fact that the shift from one to the other technique did take place. of course What would Dowland do with his students? I think he makes it clear his intentions that he recommends thumb out. I'd love to find out what made him do so. You and the rest of us. Maybe it was just changing times. Thumb-out does generally produce a brighter sound which, to my ears, cuts through an ensemble better. Maybe it was just keeping up with the young hot shot players? It seems that an emphasis on thumb-out with the ability to thumb-under when really necessary is the most versatile strategy for playing the entire repertoire. or vice versa, if you don't mind. No problem. I actually also play runs with PIPI using thumb-out. The index finger crosses under the thumb. I think Dowland describes this technique -- somebody does because I remember reading it. It's funny, but it works really well when you get the thumb really stretched out as Dowland describes. It doesn't seem to work as well for me when the hand is too high though. I actually think it's about the same as runs with thumb-under in terms of ease. I can't see how you can really play Baroque music with thumb under -- jumping from the trebles to the
Re: Neceffarie obferuations
Nails give speed? What would the physical principle involved be? IIRC, there is a fairly well-known flamenco player that does NOT have nails, but does have the speed (I'll have to dig around to find out who this was, but I remember David Schramm mentioning him some time back on RMCG). Picado IS possible without nails. I couldn't tell you the physical principles involved. Maybe it has to do with friction and mass, and the fact they play with rest stroke. All I can say is it true! and Paco plays 10 times as fast as any of the guys you mentioned, and plays with nails... I know this because I saw one of his nails ( a fake one ) explode into the sky above the audience at a concert once. Michael - Original Message - From: Greg M. Silverman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mathias RXsel [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Neceffarie obferuations Michael Thames wrote: Christopher Schaub [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I haven't heard anyone play thumb-under faster than top rate classical or flamenco guitarists whose technique is not that different from thumb-out, especially in regards to imim The kind of speed flamenco guitarists have with imim, I believe has a great deal to do with playing with nails.Sor, wrote a duet for Aguado and himself, and gave the fast part to Agado, because he played with nails. Nails give speed? What would the physical principle involved be? IIRC, there is a fairly well-known flamenco player that does NOT have nails, but does have the speed (I'll have to dig around to find out who this was, but I remember David Schramm mentioning him some time back on RMCG). Picado IS possible without nails. Greg-- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Dowland recordings
I just got Dowland A Dream by Hoppy Smith and find it to be qually well-played and interesting to Paul O'Dette's recording, but different. Anyone who is interested in Dowland's lute music should hear both Paul's and Hoppy's CDs. Nancy Carlin No Comment! Michael - Original Message - From: Nancy Carlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:18 PM Subject: Dowland recordings I just got Dowland A Dream by Hoppy Smith and find it to be qually well-played and interesting to Paul O'Dette's recording, but different. Anyone who is interested in Dowland's lute music should hear both Paul's and Hoppy's CDs. Nancy Carlin Michael Thames says: Personally, I think Paul Odette's recordings of Dowland are unequalled. Recordings by well known players using thumb out, sound rather un- lute like after listening to Odette. Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Auther, Transcriptions of original keyboard compositions to the lute, are NOT original lute pieces, and transcriptions of original lute pieces to the keyboard, are not keyboard pieces, they are what we village idiots refer to as ARRANGEMENTS, or transcriptions, or neither, just popular tunes of the time, played on what ever instrument was hanging around. Somewhere in the beginning of this debate, you simply made the mistake of calling transcriptions original . We forgive you, it can happen to the best of us at times. If you just said Byrd's, Couperin's, music was arranged by lutenists for the lute, I think we would all agree with you, But throw into the soup this compulsiveness about grand staff is at best a dream, that only someone disconnected with the obvious reality of the situation and history would say, and to keep pressing the issue is really a waste of all our time. I'll give you the benefit of doubt ( which is again pure speculation, and has no basis in fact ) that Weiss wrote in Grand staff, and gave to Bach a copy of the A major suite. That would be it... everything else was written in tab. I do not understand why some guitar players seem intent in portraying lutenists as being musical illiterates who can't read pitch notation. First Matanya, now this guy Thames. I have put a block on Thames's messages and will not read them, or comment on them. (Out of the blue, I received privately a rabid, hate-filled message from Thames. I don't need that.) Auther, your tendency for misrepresentation, and exaggeration is quite obvious! I've never said lutinests were musical illiterates or even hinted at that. I said the preferred notation was tablature for lutenits, as in the case of Weiss, and every other lutenist of any significance. I never said Weiss couldn't read bass clef, only that there's a quote that he could play from a violin score. AS far as my hate filled message, another slight exaggeration on your part. Michael Thames - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 2:40 PM Subject: Re: Byrd Perhaps it is a bit too early to call for a revised edition of Doug's lute history. But with 58 pieces in the Paston lute books, and all the other pieces that Rainer and I listed, quite a bit more than a half dozen works by Byrd have come down to us in versions for lute. As I mentioned in my initial posting, some are arrangements (by name composers such has Cutting and Holborne). And who is to say whether the corantos, pavans and the famous volta, were not first composed as lute pieces, and then keyboardized. As Byrd did with works by Dowland, John Johnson and others. And these works deserve our attention. The Byrd version of Johnson Delight Pavan and Galliard is the earliest one. And it shows that the opening four notes in later versions are not the melody, but a written out ornament. Another reason to favor the Spencer/Robinson/Berger policy of including all relevant versions of a piece in a collected edition. There are eight pieces by Couperin in a theorbo manuscript (Res 1106) at the National Library in Paris. Many of the pieces in that huge manuscript are by de Visee, but most of the Couperin pieces are unattributed. They are also not mentioned in Ledbetter's book. And indeed much lute music in staff notation remains uncharted territory. And there are some very large collections of it. These are the titles in Ms Res 1106: Pastorelle de Couprin Les Silvains de Mr Couprin [mis par de Visee] (twice, once a fragment) Les bergeries rondeau Les delices Les bergeries La Voluptueuze :Menuet de Mr. Couprin I wonder if Benjamin finds them in deVisee's style. As for Couperin's transcriptions on grand staff, I was refering,not to his original keyboard pieces in style luthee. Most of the clavecinistes made such transcriptions (e.g., Couperin, Chambonnieres, and esp. D'Anglebert). Paul has recent recordings of Byrd as well as that early one. See Robin Hood, for example. The fantasia mentioned by Mathias may be the one Stewart published with his article on the Paston Lute Books. But there are three others like it in the Paston books. - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow To: lute list Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 12:22 PM Subject: Re: Byrd At 10:43 AM -0600 7/11/05, Michael Thames wrote: I'm also courious about Couprion. Not being a historian , but able to add 2 and 2 together, one would have expected to see volumes of records made of Couperin's lute suites, what a find that would be! Yet as an avid collector of all baroque lute Cd's that I come across, I've yet to see any lute suites or peices by him. One might also have expected Paul Odette to record the complete Lute Works of William Byrd
Neceffarie obferuations
In Dowland's observations in a varietie of LVTE - lessons, he instructs ( for the right hand) to stretch your thumb with all the force you can and ... the thumb under the other fingers, which though it be nothing so elegant, yet to them it will be more easy. Is Dowland suggesting thumb out, rather than thumb under? Sorry if this has come up before. Michael -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
All those arrangements are great, but I'm longing for those original lute peices written by Couperin, in grand staff, that Arthur Ness spoke of.. - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 10:22 AM Subject: Re: Byrd At 10:43 AM -0600 7/11/05, Michael Thames wrote: I'm also courious about Couprion. Not being a historian , but able to add 2 and 2 together, one would have expected to see volumes of records made of Couperin's lute suites, what a find that would be! Yet as an avid collector of all baroque lute Cd's that I come across, I've yet to see any lute suites or peices by him. One might also have expected Paul Odette to record the complete Lute Works of William Byrd. Here's a quote from DAS History of the lute William Byrd (1542-1623) the most highly regaurded composer of the English Renaissance, wrote no music for the lute. However, lutenists transcribed some of his keyboard and vocal pieces for thier instrument, about a half a dozen of these intabulations survive today I believe Paul Odette's very first commercial release was dedicated to Byrd and Dowland. He must have played all the extant Byrd tabs then. As for Couperin, DeVise arranged at least one piece for theorbo. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lute music in staff notation
From: Markus Lutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: lute music in staff notation Date: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 2:24 AM Thomas, indeed there are quite many pieces for lute that use staff notatiation. Best Markus I find it strange indeed that Bach's student, Johann Christian Weyrauch, chose to intabulate the staff notation of some of Bach's so called lute works. Might it be, that the perfered practice of lutenists of the time, was to read from tablature? Weiss was known to have an equal ability to read staff notation ( at least, violin treble clef, no mention of keyboard, grand staff). However it seems Weiss chose to use exclusivly tablature in writting for his instrument, even though Mr. Ness coments on the advantage of grand staff for the baroque lutenist, in figureing out, what the heck, to do with your thumb. Concerning Byrd's so called lute music, I wonder if Mr. Ness is reffering to the works by Byrd, that Julian Bream felt had a lutenistic feel to them, yet were writtin in keyborad notation, again at a time when all the major lutenists of the time, wrote in tablature. How does one claim these works as original lute pieces? I'am really asking. I'm also courious about Couprion. Not being a historian , but able to add 2 and 2 together, one would have expected to see volumes of records made of Couperin's lute suites, what a find that would be! Yet as an avid collector of all baroque lute Cd's that I come across, I've yet to see any lute suites or peices by him. One might also have expected Paul Odette to record the complete Lute Works of William Byrd. Arthur, please add me to the lists of requests for the originals, of these two composers. Michael Thames Dear Matthias, This will be my last comment. Sorry tohave dominatedthe discussion. I amoff toMaine where one of my former students in composer in residence at a music festival. I wantto hear his latest orchestral work. He isan enthusatist for early music, too, and often uses snippets in his works. Mrs. Poulton made a special effort to transcribe what is playable on lute. The word keyboard appears nowhere in her edition. She simply says the tablature is transcribed into staff notation. Lutenists who play from pitch notation find two staves quite convenient. There are still lutenists who prefer staff notation to tablature, and in the past modern lutenists have often played from staff notation, not tablature. Bream said he used puitch notation, and all of the works that Gerwig recorded were available in pitch notation. I think Suzanne Bloch also transcribed works into pitch notation before she played them. Marimbas, harps and even Bach chorales are written on two staves. usually treble and bass, yet they are not called keyboard, nor are they intended for piano. Similarly the standard notation for lute is treble and bass clef (sometimes called grand staff, or a bi-staff). It has been that way for centuries. Michael Thames is doing Mrs. Poulton's memory a disservice by refering to her edition as being keyboard. This is the lingo of ill-informed guitarists, and surely we should avoid following their lead. And just a few years ago some Bach arrangements for guitar were published on two staves. So even guitarists may soon have to learn the bass clef, the way many lutenists do. Some guitarists are dead set against that octave sounding guitar notation, but are powerless to change it. Most transcriptions are usually consulted not by keyboard players (who already have sufficient repertory for their instruments), but by lutenists. Both Paul O'Dette and Christopher Wilson have told me that when they are working up a piece for a recital or CD, they consult a transcription, and if none is available, they will make one themselves. So even our virtuoso players find tablature wanting when there is a need to understand the music. That they know the most sothoroughly tells in their playuing, I believe. Weiss used French, not German, tablature, Michael. AJN. - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel To: Lutelist Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 5:19 AM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I've heard this point of view before. However counterpoint and harmony, exist only in time and space, not on paper, as tablature proves very well. in staff notation, this -|---|-- -|-O-|-- -|---|-- -|-O-|-- -|---|-- is a fifth, regardless which clef or key, right? That is easy to see, you can just count how many steps it is from the lower to the upper note. It exists on paper. But how do you know that this --a-- - --d-- - - - is a fifth, too? (BTW, it isn't on the baroque lute). And how do you know that this - --f-- - --h-- - - sounds just the same (even on the baroque lute)? You cannot see the direction of a voice's movements
Re: lute music in staff notation
Hi Chris, If anyone can do a CD of Byrd, Ronn can. Maybe sometime in the future we can look forward to one. I also enjoyed his own compositions when he played here a few years ago. Smart move to put his music in guitar notation, as well as tablature. BTW, one of my all time favorite recordings ever... is Glenn Gould's recording of Willaim Byrd, and Orlando Gibbons. According to Gould, they were his favorite composers as well. Michael Thames - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Markus Lutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 2:31 PM Subject: Re: lute music in staff notation Michael, Ronn McFarlane has been planning to do a CD devoted to the works of Byrd, however there has been some trouble from his label, Dorian. (They haven't released any new projects in a while... I'm not sure what their current statis is.) At any rate, I believe Ronn has dropped the Byrd project in favor of recording his own compositions. I don't know what form of notation he uses to notate these pieces. In a recent issue of the Lute Quarterly, one of them appeared in French tab, but you might be happy to know that he claims Mel Bay is preparing a guitar transcription of these pieces, too. CW --- Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One might also have expected Paul Odette to record the complete Lute Works of William Byrd. Michael Thames Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
Hi Michael, please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard notation Hi Thomas, Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by Bach. I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in tablature. As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go there, as I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Hi Michael, please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard notation. The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch. To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I would suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others). Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every system has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo from the bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in grand staff is uncomfortable but actually no problem to read, too. As I've read the last issue of the Lute I had a big laugh about the table of content because I think MO is quite famous for his preference for pitch notation. His article is - as always - a entertaing (although occassionally annoying) mixture of information and agitation. I wondered that the Lute Society published such an article. But it's interesting and maybe leads to a discussion (whatever the sense of this may be). Best wishes Thomas Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 17:05 schrieb Michael Thames: I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do take issue with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning the well established site reading practices, of guitarists for the past 2 centuries, which astonishingly, you called a recent development. I did sense a haughtiness in your remarks, which compelled me to respond. Julio da Modena, Byrd, Bull, Couperin, Chambonieres, J.S.Bach, Vivaldi, three anonymous composers from the 18th-century (formerly in Bob Spencer's collection) all wrote lute music in pitch notation using two staves I really don't know what to say to this. I'm speechless! To suggest that these composers wrote lute music, is again astonishing! The only original lute music Bach wrote was in Tablature, and I think by now Mr.Ness, most scholars accept Bach wrote none. As far as Byrd goes, do you include lute arrangements for keyboard, lute music? As far as Couperin, do you also include writing in the style of lute music, lute music? as far as Julio da Modena, and Chambonieres goes I've never even heard of them, as I said before I am ignorant. However if I follow your train of thought, logic would conclude that these composers most likely did some kind of arrangements for lute as well. I'm sure one can find isolated cases in which lute music was written in grand staff, but not by a single major composer or lutenist! To suggest this sets a president, is the same as you saying modern guitar notation is a recent development, very misleading! and a huge stretch. Universally lute music in pitch notation uses the grand staff, Even many guitarists today advocate guitar music on two staves, and a recent edition (ca. 2002) of arrangements of Bach for solo guitar is notated for ease in reading on two staves. Maybe you'd better start practicing your bass clef, before it's too late. Actually guitar notation on a single stave is a fairly recent phenomenon, dating from the late 18th-/early 19th century I don't play any instrument which would require me to read bass clef, but thanks for your inappropriate advice just the same. Again, if I follow your logic you are simply saying that guitar notation has been the norm from the very beginning and conception of the guitar itself , the late 18th century, a fairly redundant remark. That's the same as saying violin music has only been around since the invention of the violin. Who established so called universal lute music I've never heard of such a term. Do you know of any historical lute music written in pitch notation on a single staff? Except for guitar editions,I don't even know any modern editions of lute music on a single stave. Do you? And it's
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
BTW: It's absolute correct to tell the way guitar music is notated today a relatively modern invention. From the early renaissance until the late baroque/early romantic period it was common to notate the music for the guitar in tablature. I wonder if the change in guitar technique causes this change in notation. The tab system has many advantages when assuming rasguado-playing ... Best wishes Thomas Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your comments. However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around, for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and present, a relatively modern invention your sense of the passage of time is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you coffee thesedays? I'd like to try some too! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:15 AM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Hi BTW: It's absolut correct to tell the way guitar music is notated today a relatively modern invention. From the early renaissance until the late baroque/early romantic period it was common to notate the music for the guitar in tablature. I wonder if the change in guitar technique causes this change in notation. The tab system has many advantages when assuming rasguado-playing ... Best wishes Thomas -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ab 15.7. neue Adresse: Wiesentalstrasse 41 CH-8355 Aadorf http://www.lautenist.de http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/ http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/ http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English Renaissance modern. Regards, I see your point, BTW right now I'm listening to some relatively modern, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Weiss, not to mention a little modern guitar music by Sor. Craig Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Craig Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 11:57 AM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Michael wrote: Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your comments. However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around, for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and present, a relatively modern invention your sense of the passage of time is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you coffee thesedays? I'd like to try some too! At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English Renaissance modern. Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
The English consider 100 miles to be a long way. Only Americans consider 100 years to be a long time. I guess that's why we call Europe the old world, and America the new world. The only problem is Ness lives in Boston! Things happen here allot faster than over there. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:36 PM Subject: FW: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine And also in the same vein... The English consider 100 miles to be a long way. Only Americans consider 100 years to be a long time. Where is this thread going? Perrine? Does anyone have any sample (example) files in Fronimo? Best Wishes Ron (UK) -Original Message- From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 July 2005 18:58 To: Lutelist Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Michael wrote: Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your comments. However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around, for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and present, a relatively modern invention your sense of the passage of time is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you coffee thesedays? I'd like to try some too! At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English Renaissance modern. Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand staff is used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff. Hence the Schrade (Kohlhase) staff. But with baroque lute music, the right hand will frequently play in the bass clef. So the two staves do not mark a separation point between thehands. Will someone please inform Aurther Ness that there is no Bass cleft in Baroque lute notation, unless you happen to be an old, world keyboard, music historian. Haven't we progressed past the 1930's? mentality? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Greg M. Silverman [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:28 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand staff is used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff. Hence the Schrade (Kohlhase) staff. But with baroque lute music, the right hand will frequently play in the bass clef. So the two staves do not mark a separation point between thehands. - Original Message - From: Greg M. Silverman To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: Arthur Ness ; lute list Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:20 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote: ...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition. But it is for keyboard (ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE ARE LEFT OUT This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to have, when they claim that when lute music is in pitch notation it is for keyboard. Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two staves. That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation. Harps, marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that keyboard notation, do we? Guitarists don't know that when you play a keyboard the hands somehow work together automatically. Well, not ALL guitarists. Yes, what about those guitarists that also play keyboard. Greg-- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
As to continuo: it is big mistake to consider it lute music at all, because regardless how many lutes it may employ lutes are a priori dispensable in it. RT My heart is filled with joy, and prayers have been answered, that you have finally come full circle and reinvented yourself as the REAL Roman Trovosky, that we all have come to love, and cherish. Welcome home, it's been a long time! Finally you've succeeded in shedding the old skin of Mr. Polyhimnion, lute -9. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:08 AM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Mathias, you can and may speak for 99.9% of us, because David's prowess is in no way indicative of habits or abilities of the general lute population. I am with you on the first issue, because our first responsibility is music itself, and playing from written out music rather than from tabulature has not made anyone a better player yet. As to continuo: it is big mistake to consider it lute music at all, because regardless how many lutes it may employ lutes are a priori dispensable in it. RT Dear David, yes, you're right, I shall speak for myself. And sorry, I should have been more precise. What I was referring to in particular is playing solo pieces. I for one will always prefer tablature when it comes to playing solo pieces, on renaissance or baroque lute, no matter how exact or appropiate transcription of CNRS or DTÖ or Erbe will be. As for continuo, I cannot imagine anything else but playing from grand staff, of course. And I'll be grateful if there is keyboard realization at hand from which I can more easily and quicker see what I should do. But that is an entirely different matter. The present issue was about transcriptions of existing tablatures. Would you prefer to play Dowland's Can She Excuse from tablature or from transcribed grand staff, David? Viele Grüße Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
At a lute festival I met a member of an ensemble which played medieval music and she said (before a baroque recital): come on let's go to the cinema - I can't stand that modern stuff :-) I do understand Michael's point regarding the modernity of guitar notation but ,given a time line of - say 900 up to now - something which is 200 years old is fairly new. Best wishes Thomas Lets look at it this way. The birth of the classical guitar with six single strings took place in the decade of 1780 if not before by a few years. To then say that the notation for this very instrument is a relatively new thing doesn't make any sense in relation toAt a lute festival I met a member of an ensemble which played medieval music and she said (before a baroque recital): come on let's go to the cinema - I can't stand that modern stuff :-) I do understand Michael's point regarding the modernity of guitar notation but given a time line of - say 900 up to now - something which is 200 years old is fairly new. Best wishes Thomas the instrument we are discussing Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:52 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine At a lute festival I met a member of an ensemble which played medieval music and she said (before a baroque recital): come on let's go to the cinema - I can't stand that modern stuff :-) I do understand Michael's point regarding the modernity of guitar notation but given a time line of - say 900 up to now - something which is 200 years old is fairly new. Best wishes Thomas Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:57 schrieb Craig Allen: Michael wrote: Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your comments. However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around, for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and present, a relatively modern invention your sense of the passage of time is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you coffee thesedays? I'd like to try some too! At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English Renaissance modern. Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ab 15.7. neue Adresse: Wiesentalstrasse 41 CH-8355 Aadorf http://www.lautenist.de http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/ http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/ http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
Thomas, So I assume that the c-minor prelude in tablature, is the only source for this piece? So that being said, I can't wait to get my hands on all this new lute music Aurther Ness mentions, Byrd, Couprin, Vivaldi, etc. Does anyone know where to find the original facsimiles? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 2:13 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the collection Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire? The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly lute pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the g-minor suite (pour Schouster) being an arrangement intended to be played on the lute (although requireing the contra-g which is unusual. Falckenhagen just and pragmatically has put it an octave higher). The arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch are very interesting and highly recommended to every lover of the baroque lute. I think they are available from TREE edition. A good edition of Bach's lute work is done by Stefan Lundgren (I'm preferring his version over others although he uses a 14th course which I don't have). Best wishes Thomas Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:24 schrieben Sie: Hi Michael, please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard notation Hi Thomas, Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by Bach. I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in tablature. As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go there, as I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Hi Michael, please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard notation. The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch. To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I would suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others). Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every system has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo from the bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in grand staff is uncomfortable but actually no problem to read, too. As I've read the last issue of the Lute I had a big laugh about the table of content because I think MO is quite famous for his preference for pitch notation. His article is - as always - a entertaing (although occassionally annoying) mixture of information and agitation. I wondered that the Lute Society published such an article. But it's interesting and maybe leads to a discussion (whatever the sense of this may be). Best wishes Thomas Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 17:05 schrieb Michael Thames: I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do take issue with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning the well established site reading practices, of guitarists for the past 2 centuries, which astonishingly, you called a recent development. I did sense a haughtiness in your remarks, which compelled me to respond. Julio da Modena, Byrd, Bull, Couperin, Chambonieres, J.S.Bach, Vivaldi, three anonymous composers from the 18th-century (formerly in Bob Spencer's collection) all wrote lute music in pitch notation using two staves I really don't know what to say to this. I'm speechless! To suggest that these composers wrote lute music, is again astonishing! The only original lute music Bach wrote was in Tablature, and I think by now Mr.Ness, most scholars accept Bach wrote none. As far as Byrd goes, do you include lute arrangements for keyboard, lute music? As far as Couperin, do you also include writing in the style of lute music, lute music? as far as Julio da Modena, and Chambonieres goes
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
Dear Craig, Musical notation has been around for a thousand years, so when special notation for guitar was invented 200 years ago that is surely recent. It's even recent in the history of the guitar, which has been around since the 1400s. Dear Arthur, the six string guitar, which has been the entire focus of this discussion was invented in the decade of 1780, it adopted already existing musical notation, nothing new was invented, with the exception of the guitar itself. In the lifespan of the guitar, the notation is OLD. Saying that modern guitar notation is a recent development is wrong. The only notation the six string has ever known is treble clef. I also appreciate your attempt to divert attention to the 1400th century guitar but that's not at all what we are talking about, good try! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 2:22 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Dear Craig, Musical notation has been around for a thousand years, so when special notation for guitar was invented 200 years ago that is surely recent. It's even recent in the history of the guitar, which has been around since the 1400s. I don't know where guitarists picked up the idea of a treble clef sounding an octave lower. Some Italian lute music uses a treble sounding an octave lower, as does notation in the treble clef for cello (used mostly before ca. 1900). Some persons consider early music to be music before Bach. Some also call that repertory pre-music music.g But others would claim that music using, say period instruments, belongs in the early music category. So I guess performers are pushing the frontiers of early music forward when they play Stravinsky on period instruments. And recently there has been an interest inauthentic performance pratices in Brahms. I recently heard the Fourth Symphny played on period instruments of the kind in use in Brahms's day. I didn't realize it, but the ophicleid is a very agile instrument. Lots of themes and variations were written for it in the 19th cenury. A trombonist in the Boston SO has made it a specialty. ajn ajn - Original Message - From: Craig Allen To: Lutelist Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:57 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Michael wrote: Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your comments. However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around, for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and present, a relatively modern invention your sense of the passage of time is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you coffee thesedays? I'd like to try some too! At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English Renaissance modern. Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
Dear Arthur, I feel compelled to apologize to you for this village-idiot. RT Trovosky, I know it's a little difficult for you to confirm or deny your own existence's, let alone the existence of 18th century guitar music, but stretch your intellect a little and really marvelous things might take place, or maybe not. Concerning Bach you can talk to many different people and get many different answers. I for one, seriously doubt Bach wrote anything for the lute. Anything that was said to be by Bach is an arrangement, of his music for the lute, by a keyboardist, or by a lutenist from keyboard to tablature. I discussed this with Paul Odette at a master class, and he concluded that Bach wrote nothing for the lute, I then said maybe the g-minor suite? and he said maybe. The only music written for lute was written in tablature. Otherwise, it's by definition not original lute music, but an arrangement. As I said, one might find this on rare occasion, but certainly is not the norm. So, please show me an original baroque lute piece that uses bass clef. It can't be done because all major, players composing original lute music used Tablature. You New York village idiot! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Greg M. Silverman [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:21 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Dear Arthur, I feel compelled to apologize to you for this village-idiot. RT On Jul 5, 2005, at 3:35 PM, Michael Thames wrote: There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand staff is used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff. Hence the Schrade (Kohlhase) staff. But with baroque lute music, the right hand will frequently play in the bass clef. So the two staves do not mark a separation point between thehands. Will someone please inform Aurther Ness that there is no Bass cleft in Baroque lute notation, unless you happen to be an old, world keyboard, music historian. Haven't we progressed past the 1930's? mentality? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Greg M. Silverman [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:28 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand staff is used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff. Hence the Schrade (Kohlhase) staff. But with baroque lute music, the right hand will frequently play in the bass clef. So the two staves do not mark a separation point between thehands. - Original Message - From: Greg M. Silverman To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: Arthur Ness ; lute list Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:20 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote: ...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition. But it is for keyboard (ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE ARE LEFT OUT This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to have, when they claim that when lute music is in pitch notation it is for keyboard. Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two staves. That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation. Harps, marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that keyboard notation, do we? Guitarists don't know that when you play a keyboard the hands somehow work together automatically. Well, not ALL guitarists. Yes, what about those guitarists that also play keyboard. Greg-- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
Right, and when the same historians talk about things classical they are talking about things roughly 2500 years old Earth to Stuart.earth to Stuart... are you there Stuart...hello! hello! I think we lost him sir Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Stuart LeBlanc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 7:06 PM Subject: RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Right, and when the same historians talk about things classical they are talking about things roughly 2500 years old. -Original Message- From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:58 PM To: Lutelist Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English Renaissance modern. Michael wrote: Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your comments. However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around, for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and present, a relatively modern invention your sense of the passage of time is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you coffee thesedays? I'd like to try some too! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
Arthur mentions Byrd's lute music below. I always assumed the pieces I have seen in lute tab were 16th Century intabulations taken from some of Byrd's other music. Has someone done an article on Byrd's lute music that I can read? I'd love to get a list of the pieces and which manuscripts they are in. Nancy Carlin I always assumed they were keyboard arrangements by Byrd of lute music. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Nancy Carlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:51 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Arthur and any others who are tinterested: Arthur mentions Byrd's lute music below. I always assumed the pieces I have seen in lute tab were 16th Century intabulations taken from some of Byrd's other music. Has someone done an article on Byrd's lute music that I can read? I'd love to get a list of the pieces and which manuscripts they are in. Nancy Carlin There was lute music on two staves much earlier than the Denkmaeler der Tonkunst. And I do not know how influential that IMS conference report was. Byrd, Couperin, Bach, et al., for example, use two staves. So lute music in pitch notation on the grand staff has always been with us. The use of A tuning can be annoying to us familiar with the G tuning. But German editors seemtofavorit. Even some of those Die Tabulatur editions use A tuning (another problem with Ophee's article; he doesn't discuss tuning, or compare the transcriptions with the tablature). By the way, CNRS now issues a separate volume of tablature, as well as the volume of tablature and parallel transcription. So no longer do you need to cut and paste. Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of tradition. In music, Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of modernism. Another definition of modernism something that came after, the thing that came before. In which case Stuart, were all in a moving picture, and the name of the feature presentation is Perpetual Motion. Seriously Stuart I think your confusing the word modern with modernism two very different things. Your welcome to think of Beethoven as modern music, I tend to think of Henze as pre futuristic, future music that has yet to be actualized. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Stuart LeBlanc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 7:06 PM Subject: RE: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of tradition. In music, Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of modernism. For example, his first symphony (in C Major) begins with a C dominant seventh chord resolving to an F major chord. Those who traditionally understood a symphony in C major as beginning with a harmonic progression defining the key of C major apparently took strong exception to this. -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English Renaissance modern. Regards, I see your point, BTW right now I'm listening to some relatively modern, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Weiss, not to mention a little modern guitar music by Sor. Craig Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Craig Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 11:57 AM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Michael wrote: Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your comments. However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around, for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and present, a relatively modern invention your sense of the passage of time is allot different than mine, what kind of sweetener are you using in you coffee thesedays? I'd like to try some too! At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category. It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the English Renaissance modern. Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently (the case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is always possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand staff), but if not Bach made the transcription. The question in my mind is whether Weiss also composedthe violin part, andthat in Dresden we have the lute part for a sonata for violin and lute. Arthur, this is a very nice dream, and I'd love to think it's true, but it's just speculation at this point. Please forgive my ignorance, but why is this considered Weiss's original piece, and not Weiss's arrangement of one of Bach's suites? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness To: Arthur Ness ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Michael Thames ; Lutelist Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:01 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine It is in pitchnotationonthegrand staff. No original tablature survives. - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Michael Thames ; Lutelist Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 6:52 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently (the case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is always possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand staff), but if not Bach made the transription. The question in my mind is whether Weiss also composedthe violin part, andthat in Dresden we have the lute part for a sonata for violin and lute. The c-minor (originally d-minor???),BWV 999, comes down in just one source, a manuscript copied by J.P. Kellner, an snporganist. The Kellner who was active in lute and gutar music was another person, David K. - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall To: Michael Thames ; Lutelist Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:13 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the collection Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire? The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly lute pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the g-minor suite (pour Schouster) being an arrangement intended to be played on the lute (although requireing the contra-g which is unusual. Falckenhagen just and pragmatically has put it an octave higher). The arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch are very interesting and highly recommended to every lover of the baroque lute. I think they are available from TREE edition. A good edition of Bach's lute work is done by Stefan Lundgren (I'm preferring his version over others although he uses a 14th course which I don't have). Best wishes Thomas Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:24 schrieben Sie: Hi Michael, please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard notation Hi Thomas, Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by Bach. I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in tablature. As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go there, as I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Hi Michael, please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard notation. The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch. To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I would suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others). Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every system has advantages
Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine
Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two staves. That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation. Harps, marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that keyboard notation, do we? Guitarists don't know that when you play a keyboard the hands somehow work together automatically. ajn Well I don't know a whole lot of violinist's that read bass clef, and may cellist's that read treble clef. Or may lutenists that read Italian tab, or Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 6:57 AM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine There are two books of lute music by Perrine (first name unknown). Civiol's web page just gives the introductory text with English translation. Both books (1679 and 1680) are available in facsimile. My former class mates Steve and Olga Immel have probably the most comprehensive stock of music in facsimile (Old music and Incunabula, New York City), and their web site is a good place to look when you wish to know about a facsimile. They even list facsimiles that are out-of-print (helpful to know that you might find them in a library or on the antiquarian market) (http://www.omifacsimiles.com-cats-lute-pdf) There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition. But it is for keyboard (ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE ARE LEFT OUT This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to have, when they claim that when lute music is in pitch notation it is for keyboard. Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two staves. That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation. Harps, marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that keyboard notation, do we? Guitarists don't know that when you play a keyboard the hands somehow work together automatically. ajn - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Olivia Fox Cabane [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 11:08 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine Is this Perrine Book published? Anyone here seen it? It sounds very interesting. Unlike most other lute pieces, this one was transcribed by Perrine, a contemporary of the authors, from tablatura to modern technique. This has made the Book a fabulous interpretation tool for other pieces; a sort of Rosetta stone. It gives indications about left- and right-hand positions; about ornementation, arpegements. -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cartloads of yew
I Have a friend who holds some record for shooting the long bow. He was telling me there was a wood from Texas, called Osage Orange, that is the only other wood that is used for making excellent bows. Has anyone tried it for lutes? Does anyone know if the Sandalwood mentioned in Fugger's inventory of lutes is the actual Sandalwood from India? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 6:04 PM Subject: cartloads of yew I think this has been discused on the lute list in the past, as I recall, Henry 8 required all men of england to practice at the butts so that England would have lots of archers; Yew bow staves were stocked at all the armories, along with the makings of arrows. Much of this yew was imported, if I recall corectly, from italy. Hand-held firearms gradually supplanted the bow and the crossbow, rendering the stockpiled Yew less useful as a strategic reserve. Mind you, this is all off the top of my head, best as I remember. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
We take it more or less for granted that the reason so many ivory or ebony lutes have survived is because of their price, rarity and decorative qualities, rather than because they were common in the past. I wonder whether yew comes into the same category (though it is undoubtedly a better material for the job than ivory or ebony). From reading DAS History of the lute I get the impression that Yew was very common, if not the most common for lutes. In the inventory Magno Diafaberker it lists... 140 lutes of yew and maple, 100 ordinary lutes, 110 lutes of yew and other, 10 lutes of alternating sandalwood and ivory, 4 lutes of ivory, on and on. Also, it lists by far, much more yew rib material than any other. 8800 yew ribs to be exact. In the inventory of Fugger, it shows that he collected more lutes made of ebony, ivory, and other exotic woods, rather than the common lutes made of yew. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 2:52 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Dear Chad and All, The question of what effect different woods have on lute tone is one which I am often asked but I don't have any easy answers. But I just wanted to say something about yew. Some modern makers are convinced that lutemakers started to use yew because it was simply the ideal material, even though it was often difficult to get. There is no doubt it is an excellent material for lute backs, but I wonder whether its main importance was decorative. Nearly all of the old yew lutes are multi-rib instruments where the use of heart/sap yew gives a wonderfully stripey appearance - the lutes look almost as though they have twice as many ribs as they actually have. I just wonder whether this wood was prized because it was rare and beautiful, rather than because it was better acoustically than anything else? I can't find the source at the moment, but there is a letter from a lutemaker complaining that he could only get enough yew to make three or four lutes a year - so what did he make the other 996 lutes out of? We take it more or less for granted that the reason so many ivory or ebony lutes have survived is because of their price, rarity and decorative qualities, rather than because they were common in the past. I wonder whether yew comes into the same category (though it is undoubtedly a better material for the job than ivory or ebony). Best wishes, Martin Chad McAnally wrote: Michael, Fleta was a really interesting chap. Years ago I had chance to play a colleague's Fleta, it almost played itself to was so co-operative!!! In lutes, I've read that 1.) the harder the wood the ribs are made of, the louder the lute, and 2.) towards the end of the 16th century makers started to use Yew for the ribs, simply because large amounts of it had been freed up from military uses. It seems that the use of woods like ebony increased as well. Were these makers looking for more forward projection in their instruments Or was it just a matter of having new exotic materials to experiment with? ( or both? ) Imagine the advertisements: New for 1587 Ebony and Snakewood 7 course models!!! Chad Original Message - From: Michael Thamesmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutemailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; Chad McAnallymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets I've built both harps and guitars and it seems less important what the back and sides are made of versus how they are made;( within reasonI wouldn't make guitar sides of delrin or concrete!) I.e. that they are of the right thickness to resonate and still be strong enough to support to the soundboard seems the real key. Chad Chad, I second that emotion. Each wood contributes to the tone in one way or another. But who can really say one is better than the other. Maple makes great guitars and lutes, as does ebony or rosewood. Lacote, thought so little of the effect of the back and sides that he just used pine, with a veneer over it. Fleta, actually made his own plywood from rosewood and spruce, for the back, and sides, and used this on what he called his international models, to prevent cracking of the back. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.comhttp://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/ - Original Message - From: Chad McAnally [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edumailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 10:50 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Hi Tony, -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Although Thomas Mace recommends single frets he only gives instructions
for tying double ones:
This quote taken from David Van Edward's excellent site.
So in some strange way, this quote might confirm that indeed, most
lute paintings do in fact show single frets. Although I'm now sold on
double frets, and not having a copy of Thomas Mace's book ( which I shall
order as soon as possible) I am now again confused. What's up!
Thanks to everyone who sent me fret tying diagrams. David Brown,
Bernd , and Carl.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: Carl Donsbach [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Michael and everyone,
Diagrams for tying frets can be found on David Van Edwards's site - the
double fret knot is toward the bottom of the page. David's illustration
is
based on Mace's description of the process.
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/fretknot.htm
Better yet, find a viol player to demonstrate.
By the way, Mace's discussion of fret tying gave me the impression that
the
single fret was something of a new innovation at that time. Does anyone
know of other writings that would either support or contradict this?
-Carl
Carl Donsbach
http://www.unm.edu/~ctdbach/Lute/Building_Lute/Building_Lute_Main.htm
Confounded eyeglasses... where'd I leave 'em this time...?8:-{
--On Wednesday, June 22, 2005 12:16 PM -0600 Michael Thames
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I just took some gut about .90mm and sanded down a length long enough to
be the double side in back ( towards the nut).
In about 1 minute, I was able to sand off .10 mm. From .90mm
down
to .80mm. The sanding changes the color of the gut so you can see where
you've thinned it down. I used 220 emery paper, or as we call it in the
lute world. 220 grit shark's skin. It's nice because you don't
damage the gut in anyway. I mean as far as delaminating the string. or
the twist etc. I folded over the paper made a cradle with it, and
sanded evenly the whole diameter of the string.
Now, if only I can figure out how to tie a double fret!
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: Chad McAnally [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
I just took some gut about .90mm and sanded down a length long enough to be the double side in back ( towards the nut). In about 1 minute, I was able to sand off .10 mm. From .90mm down to .80mm. The sanding changes the color of the gut so you can see where you've thinned it down. I used 220 emery paper, or as we call it in the lute world. 220 grit shark's skin. It's nice because you don't damage the gut in anyway. I mean as far as delaminating the string. or the twist etc. I folded over the paper made a cradle with it, and sanded evenly the whole diameter of the string. Now, if only I can figure out how to tie a double fret! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Chad McAnally [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 7:30 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Hi Michael, I've used Spanish Cedar for harp backs. It is a lovely wood and smells fantastic. Same effects on tone in harps as you mentioned with Hon. Mahogany vs. Spanish Cedar in guitar necks. Likewise, In the past 30 years it was almost a standard to make early harps, especially reproductions of Gaelic brass strung harps, entirely of hard maple or sycamore. More recently upon further research on the Irish antiques the wood of choice for the soundboard and box turned on to be willow. Black willow is similar to Sp. Cedar in density and surprisingly strong for it's weight, and its volume and clarity is much greater than maple. The greater mass of the clavichord tangents made sense to me too; just like a lute, clavichord bridges raise in height and width towards the bass end. It's just one more bit of proof that the ancients knew what they were doing and built these things to achieve the results they wanted. I also will inlay a piece of hardwood inside the neck not to reinforce it, but to kill the natural frequency in the neck, so it won't color the tone. Wow, I would have never guessed that, but this too makes perfect sense. It will interesting to see if I can get the same results you are seeing and hearing with the double frets. Going to order more fretgut in the morning! Chad - Original Message - From: Michael Thamesmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutemailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; Chad McAnallymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 11:17 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets I just finished reading some Dalsa in Italian Tab. then tried to read some French tab. Man, my mind stopped working for a moment. So I checked my Email. Chad, Interesting you picked up on this as well. 20 or so years ago, I quit using Honduran Mahogany, for necks in exchange for a lighter wood called Spanish cedar ( cedro). H. Mahogany is the typical wood Hauser used, and the Spanish cedar is typical for Spanish guitars. H. Mahogany is heavier, and gave the guitars more sustain, especially in the bass, but less warmth and volume. S. Cedar gave the guitars more warmth, and openness in the treble, more volume, but less sustain, and less clarity in the bass. I've always told guitarist's that the neck can make or break an instrument. Also, if you make a thin neck you get more warmth, ( up to a point) and the opposite for a thicker neck. I also will inlay a piece of hardwood inside the neck not to reinforce it, but to kill the natural frequency in the neck, so it won't color the tone. Chad as you mentioned adding heaver tangents, for the bass, this makes perfect sense, as the bass needs damping which is mass. This same principle can be seen on lute bridges. On the bass side of the bridge, it is higher, and wider adding mass, but on the treble side it is lower, and more narrow creating lightness, as well as stiffness. Anyway, in the next few days I'm making a neck for a baroque lute, and can't decide on going with linden (light ) or Spanish cedar ( a little heaver) for the core. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.comhttp://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/ - Original Message - From: Chad McAnally [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edumailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Michael Thames wrote: If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. Now I know this is a lute list, not an early keyboard list, but I have come upon a direct parallel that may be of interest to lutenist and luthiers alike. The same phenomenon mentioned above by Michael was recently has been noted also on clavichords in an article by Martin Skowroneck in Clavichord Intenational ( Vol 9 #1 May 2005) ; Half
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Dear Martyn, Sean, and Peter, and all, Last night I added another fret to each of the frets on my 6 course lute, in the manner that Sean had suggested, with smaller diameter gut behind it, as I was unsure as to how much the fret wear, would affect me getting the right mix with the existing frets. Well, the result was phenomenal, not only in the playability, but sound as well. I guess these old guys new something after all. Besides the feeling of solidity, and sure footedness, the lute immediately had more sustain, not in a bad way, but just enough to even out the balance everywhere. It also eliminated, what I consider, a not musical transient attack sound, and gave it a crystalline round fundamental attack. I think in the way, that Peter was describing, the guitar like effect, this is important for the lute, as really, the only thing that projects, is the attack of the string. If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. This was so amazing that I then did it to my baroque lute, with the same astonishing results. I did get a little sizzle on the second course second fret, but I realize this is probably the most fretted note on the Baroque lute, and the fret wore there more than other places. It makes me think that when the BIG BOYS have tried it, they didn't have time, concerts etc. to let the sizzle fade away perhaps? When I have tried to turn on, some of my stubborn guitar friends, to the Baroque lute, they to my horror, declare that the baroque lute sounds like a banjo. These double frets, transform this, thin high partial banjo like sound, into a full bodied rounded sound, much easier on the ear of the non initiated, and more in line with what guitarists consider a good tone. I have yet to try the single double looped system,,which I will, but If professionals who don't have the time perhaps Sean's method would be something one could try in a matter of an hour or so. I will put double frets on all my lutes from now on. Thanks again, for the dialogue, and expertise, and your patience with my journey Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 8:50 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Stability is good word. Somehow, too, it requires less effort. W/ a single fret you feel the string bend behind the fret and you want to touch bottom. I remember playing an orpharion w/ scalloped frets and it seems to take these ideas to the next level. Bending the string behind the fret would severely sharpen the metal strings as well as wear down the brass frets and that's the reasoning behind that, I suppose. Having the fret area more spread out over the string means less wear on a single point. This is good for both small diameter gut strings as well as the roped bass beasties. Only recently (March) in my fretting experiment did I switch to doubled frets for frets 5-8 and I immediately found it easier to get clean notes up there. Sean On Jun 19, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Peter Weiler wrote: I've thought about this for a good hour and I have to say it is a remarkably difficult thing to verbalize. I don't know what commercial pressures the big boys are subject to (and I don't think that's a good measure) but for the rest of us... you're right about a little less tendency to slide on the neck, but there is a certain stability or solidity to the feeling of the note being produced by fretting which is actually a bit more guitar-like. The speed with which a tone is articulated is different. There is a very precise and decisive feel to moderate-gauge double frets. I hope a few others who have better English than I will jump in here! - Peter Well I'm not proud ! So I will give them a try. Would it be safe to say that the second fret prevents the courses from sliding around so much? What is the advantage to these, and seriously, why don't performers use them thesedays. Has anyone talked to the guys at the top, like Odette, Wilson, Barto, Cardin etc. as to their rational behind not using them? Michael Thames -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Ha ha! My diabolical plan to inflate the third-quarter share price of fretgut manufactories is proceeding apace! You've just doubled your projected profit! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Peter Weiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Ha ha! My diabolical plan to inflate the third-quarter share price of fretgut manufactories is proceeding apace! Dear Martyn, Sean, and Peter, and all, Last night I added another fret to each of the frets on my 6 course lute, in the manner that Sean had suggested, with smaller diameter gut behind it, as I was unsure as to how much the fret wear, would affect me getting the right mix with the existing frets. Well, the result was phenomenal, not only in the playability, but sound as well. I guess these old guys new something after all. Besides the feeling of solidity, and sure footedness, the lute immediately had more sustain, not in a bad way, but just enough to even out the balance everywhere. It also eliminated, what I consider, a not musical transient attack sound, and gave it a crystalline round fundamental attack. I think in the way, that Peter was describing, the guitar like effect, this is important for the lute, as really, the only thing that projects, is the attack of the string. If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. This was so amazing that I then did it to my baroque lute, with the same astonishing results. I did get a little sizzle on the second course second fret, but I realize this is probably the most fretted note on the Baroque lute, and the fret wore there more than other places. It makes me think that when the BIG BOYS have tried it, they didn't have time, concerts etc. to let the sizzle fade away perhaps? When I have tried to turn on, some of my stubborn guitar friends, to the Baroque lute, they to my horror, declare that the baroque lute sounds like a banjo. These double frets, transform this, thin high partial banjo like sound, into a full bodied rounded sound, much easier on the ear of the non initiated, and more in line with what guitarists consider a good tone. I have yet to try the single double looped system,,which I will, but If professionals who don't have the time perhaps Sean's method would be something one could try in a matter of an hour or so. I will put double frets on all my lutes from now on. Thanks again, for the dialogue, and expertise, and your patience with my journey -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stage presence and formal manners.
If good manners includes the musical aspect, of performance, I would have to say... Performers should have the good taste, and intelligence, not to play 20th century computer generated elevator lute music, by composers, either still dead, or still living, or still both, from the greater NY city area. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 9:24 AM Subject: Stage presence and formal manners. In A Tale of Two Cities there is a French marquis with a cold and selfish heart. He is consequently a cruel man. This man has very good manners. In reading the book, it is a pleasure to listen to him talk, because his manners are so fine. He can say my friend to someone he hates, without sounding smarmy. So, zee question eees, which players of fretted instrumentals, historical or (preferably) living, might serve as models of good manners during performance? By good manners, I don't mean nice clothes, humility, or open-heartedness, however preferable these might be. I mean the type of manners which our marquis had: a sophisticated, semi-formalized, perhaps difficult good-breeding which would serve well at a diplomatic party. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
There are a few frets that would take a while to wear down because the are used so seldom (such as the 5th course 1st and 6th frets) that it might be better to take a gentle file to the nutside. Sean I just had the thought, that one could cut the piece of gut long enough for the double loop single fret, and calculate the length of the string that will go on the nut side and somehow pre thickness it down before you tie it on the fretborad. I don't know what the best tool would be to thickness down the gut. Maybe a real sharp scraper or single edge razor blade. Mimo might know. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 6:43 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets There are a few frets that would take a while to wear down because the are used so seldom (such as the 5th course 1st and 6th frets) that it might be better to take a gentle file to the nutside. Sean On Jun 21, 2005, at 4:39 PM, Peter Weiler wrote: JAS wrote: But this means all those elaborate formulas for tying a double fret with a single strand of gut are not applicable. Not really; as Sean (I think) pointed out, the up-neck fret tends to be the one that takes the brunt of the wear. After a week or three of use they seem to settle in with this morphology (slightly higher on the bridge side). The effect is very small, but I think it's not imaginary. I do have a lot of trouble getting double fret knots tight for anything greater than, say, 0.80 mm fretgut though. -Peter - Original Message - From: James A Stimson To: Peter Weiler Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:29:25 -0400 Dear Peter and All: Now this is interesting. I assume you put the slightly smaller fret on the nut side of the main fret. It makes me think of the frets on my Forrester citterns, which are brass and include a tiny wooden ramp on the nut side, which presumably keeps one from bending the note sharp when fretting a course. But this means all those elaborate formulas for tying a double fret with a single strand of gut are not applicable. It also means that if you break a fret in the middle of a performance all is not lost. Cheers, Jim Peter Weiler om cc: Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets 06/21/2005 06:14 PM Ha ha! My diabolical plan to inflate the third-quarter share price of fretgut manufactories is proceeding apace! Dear Martyn, Sean, and Peter, and all, Last night I added another fret to each of the frets on my 6 course lute, in the manner that Sean had suggested, with smaller diameter gut behind it, as I was unsure as to how much the fret wear, would affect me getting the right mix with the existing frets. Well, the result was phenomenal, not only in the playability, but sound as well. I guess these old guys new something after all. Besides the feeling of solidity, and sure footedness, the lute immediately had more sustain, not in a bad way, but just enough to even out the balance everywhere. It also eliminated, what I consider, a not musical transient attack sound, and gave it a crystalline round fundamental attack. I think in the way, that Peter was describing, the guitar like effect, this is important for the lute, as really, the only thing that projects, is the attack of the string. If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. This was so amazing that I then did it to my baroque lute, with the same astonishing results. I did get a little sizzle on the second course second fret, but I realize this is probably the most fretted note on the Baroque lute, and the fret wore there more than other places. It makes me think that when the BIG BOYS have tried it, they didn't have time, concerts etc. to let the sizzle fade away perhaps? When I have tried to turn on, some of my stubborn guitar friends, to the Baroque lute, they to my horror, declare that the baroque lute sounds like a banjo. These double frets, transform this, thin high partial banjo like sound, into a full bodied rounded sound, much easier on the ear of the non initiated, and more in line with what guitarists consider a good tone. I have yet to try the single double looped system,,which I will, but If professionals who don't have the time perhaps Sean's method would be something one could try in a matter of an hour or so. I will put double frets on all my lutes from now on. Thanks again, for the dialogue, and expertise, and your patience with my journey
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
I just finished reading some Dalsa in Italian Tab. then tried to read some French tab. Man, my mind stopped working for a moment. So I checked my Email. Chad, Interesting you picked up on this as well. 20 or so years ago, I quit using Honduran Mahogany, for necks in exchange for a lighter wood called Spanish cedar ( cedro). H. Mahogany is the typical wood Hauser used, and the Spanish cedar is typical for Spanish guitars. H. Mahogany is heavier, and gave the guitars more sustain, especially in the bass, but less warmth and volume. S. Cedar gave the guitars more warmth, and openness in the treble, more volume, but less sustain, and less clarity in the bass. I've always told guitarist's that the neck can make or break an instrument. Also, if you make a thin neck you get more warmth, ( up to a point) and the opposite for a thicker neck. I also will inlay a piece of hardwood inside the neck not to reinforce it, but to kill the natural frequency in the neck, so it won't color the tone. Chad as you mentioned adding heaver tangents, for the bass, this makes perfect sense, as the bass needs damping which is mass. This same principle can be seen on lute bridges. On the bass side of the bridge, it is higher, and wider adding mass, but on the treble side it is lower, and more narrow creating lightness, as well as stiffness. Anyway, in the next few days I'm making a neck for a baroque lute, and can't decide on going with linden (light ) or Spanish cedar ( a little heaver) for the core. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Chad McAnally [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Michael Thames wrote: If one really thinks about it, half the sound goes into the bridge, and half goes into the neck, via the frets. So to not consider the effect the frets contribute would be silly. Now I know this is a lute list, not an early keyboard list, but I have come upon a direct parallel that may be of interest to lutenist and luthiers alike. The same phenomenon mentioned above by Michael was recently has been noted also on clavichords in an article by Martin Skowroneck in Clavichord Intenational ( Vol 9 #1 May 2005) ; Half the energy of the strings goes into the bridge and half into the tangents, equivalent to the frets of a clavichord. It appear the some of the old builders realized this and made their tangents progressively heavier toward the bass end of the instrument, or tried to concentrate more the weight of the key levers closer to the tangent end, both in an effort to make the key reflect more of the energy of the string. Also critical to this was making the tangent more stable in the key than the traditional hammering in of the tangent. Some makers used addition small wooden wedges to tighten the tangent into the key to accomplish this. So, I began to experiment with all this on an instrument I'm working on. The result was not only a slightly louder clavichord but the tone was totally different. Very much like Michael's description of the impact the double fretting has on Baroque lute tone, the sustain is increased, but not so much as to muddy the instrument and the overall tone colour was rounder, much closer to the antiques in good condition I've heard and played. So, I wonder if the stability of the frets via double fretting transfers more energy to the neck resulting in a better tone or like the clavichord tangent, the double frets help reflects the motion of the string better into the air? A new puzzle for builders! Chad -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
Timothy, I think we've all been there done that, not fun. My sympathies go out to you and yours. But, one thing kind of puzzles me. You say you still angled the neck back. If one has a straight plane from the nut to the bridge lets say, the height of the first course above the fingerboard at the twelfth fret, is say 4mm, and the height at the nut is 1.40, that would put the height of the string at the bridge at 7.80 mm and that's just the first course, the sixth course would ride at 8.80 thus calling for an actual bridge that is in the ballpark of 10.8mm on the bass and 9.8mm on the treble...And that's if the plane is just STRAIGHT from the nut to the bridge!!! Angle the neck BACK as Lundberg suggests, and you end up with something that resembles the bowed family of instruments. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Timothy Motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 7:42 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Michael, No, it resulted in the opposite problem. The strings were about 2 mm above the neck at the join with the body, and there wasn't enough of an angle to the strings for them to clear the frets as I played, no matter how much I dropped the diameters of the frets as I went down the neck. I ended up making a new bridge that was higher and increased the angle of the strings (I also made the bridge higher on the bass side by about 1 mm, since most of the problem was on the 6th and 7th courses). I had angled back the neck on purpose (as you say, I was following Lundberg's advice), but I over-did it. The thought of taking the neck off and re-angling it was more than I wanted to contemplate, so the bridge seemed like the only alternative. In a way, it was an interesting problem and taught me a lot about string set-up and how to deal with problems. I learned that I could remove a bridge that had been glued (firmly) with hide glue and not damage the soundboard. Fortunately, I'm not making a living doing this, so I can screw up without it affecting my income. I would have been very unhappy if this lute had been intended for a client. Tim On Friday, June 17, 2005, at 05:57 PM, Michael Thames wrote: I just got finished fixing a problem with the neck angling back too much, so I've had reason to know what the effect of neck angle will be Timothy, sounds like you were reading Lundberg's bad advice about angling the neck back. It should be angled forward. As you see this doesn't work out so well. Unless you like the strings to float 10mm off the top. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 11:52 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Michael, Sure it does. If the neck angles back it brings the strings closer to paralleling the neck, assuming that the height of the nut and bridge stay the same. That in turn means that there is a limit to how high you can raise the action by raising the nut before the strings actually angle the wrong way relative to the neck. But the angle of the neck doesn't have much affect on how high up off the soundboard the strings will be. That is mostly determined by the height of the bridge. I just got finished fixing a problem with the neck angling back too much, so I've had reason to know what the effect of neck angle will be. Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Built-in action? Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:20:55 -0600 Vance wrote, This is not entirely true. The most significant influence upon the action of the Lute is the relationship between the nut and the bridge and how large the clearance is at the joint between the neck and the belly. Vance this isn't true either. The only thing the angle of the neck will affect, is how high off the top the strings ride at the bridge. It has nothing to do with the action. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 3:35 PM Subject: Built-in action? Hi Herbert: You wrote: The action depends on where the _tops_ of the frets are, which is controlled by the person who chooses the fret diameters. This is not entirely true. The most significant influence upon the action of the Lute is the relationship between the nut and the bridge
Re: Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Martyn wrote, The historical evidence is that double fret loops were generally used; always excepting the eccentric Thos Mace (he of the Lute Dyphone - a combined theorboe and lute in one instrument and advocat of frequent do-it-yourself lute repairs: 'A Lute Belly often in need to be taken off' 'once in a year or two') who, whilst advocating single loop frets, when it comes down to it describes the tying of a double loop Martyn, In the lute iconography, I don't recall ever seeing double frets, not to say they haven't existed, just to say that I haven't seen any that I can recall. That being said I'm curious to go through the iconography and look specify for this. If this was as popular as you say, one would have expected to see more, and come to think about it I not seen one modern lute with these either. I've seen allot of paintings of historical lutes, and think it probably safe to sat 99% of what I've seen are single frets. The only possible way that double frets could work is if the fret closest to the nut was slightly lower than the other, allowing the string to make contact with the crest of the higher fret. Otherwise you have big intonation problems. As a guitarmaker, I go through great lengths to crown a metal fret exactly at the correct point, this is very important. The string should only come it contact with the crest of the fret. Any difference to this is a personal choice as to how much tolerance one has for out of tunness Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 6:15 AM Subject: Fwd: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:11:37 +0100 (BST) From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] The historical evidence is that double fret loops were generally used; always excepting the eccentric Thos Mace (he of the Lute Dyphone - a combined theorboe and lute in one instrument and advocat of frequent do-it-yourself lute repairs: 'A Lute Belly often in need to be taken off' 'once in a year or two') who, whilst advocating single loop frets, when it comes down to it describes the tying of a double loop. This matter has been the subject of previous communications and you can read these in the archives. Re. concern about buzzing: - in practice, a double fret beds in very soon and has a real advantage in that the loop nearest to the finger takes most of the heavy wear allowing the other loop to retain a good cut-off profile. rgds Martyn Hodgson Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon wrote, I see the comment from Michael as to Dowland's suggestion of two gut frets, and that it makes no sense. Again I speak as a beginner, but I can picture a value to a wider fret (two gut frets wouldn't be higher, only wider, unless they were wound together Jon the problem isn't the wildness of the fret, but where the string makes contact. If you have two frets next to each other, and you press the string down HARD, it will only hit the fret nearest to the nut and the second fret will cause it to buzz or sound dull. If you press the string with less pressure it will only ride off the front fret. This variation is a mm or so for each fret, and will cause huge intonation problems on a lute with a string length of 600mm which at that point can't tolerate any inaccuracy. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy To: ; Lute builder Net ; Martyn Hodgson ; Michael Thames Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 2:21 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? If an amateur may add to the thread (and by now you know I will anyway) I'll toss in my oar. BTW - Martin, Martyn, Durbrow and Thames - sounds like a law firm. The goal is the action. Neglecting any tilt in the neck (which does exist in many) there is a natural effect to the midpoint of the string (the 12th fret in almost every case). The action, or pressure needed, is easier the further from the nut. There is also the matter that the widest displacement of the string in its series of vibratations is at the midpoint, the open tonic. (Ooops, as I write this I realize I haven't followed the thread from inception - so pardon if this is obvious). But it seems to me that the angle of higher at the bridge to lower at the nut, and with all frets the same height is natural to keep the finger action the same through that range (to the octave). It is when you get above the octave that the problem occurs, as the action gets stiffer as you go from midpoint to nearer the bridge (and the range of vibration, and therefore potential buzz gets less). OK, a speculation for your consideration from a beginner in making these boxes. All comments welcome, I am here to learn
Re: Built-in action?
Jon, Another thing to bear in mind is that a string, when pressed against the fret, never makes a perfectly straight plane. I mean that when your finger presses the string down in back of the fret, it produces a slight arch, not a straight line. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 12:56 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? OK guys, I'm thoroughly confused. Someone said that the action is the height of the string above the fret, others have other definitions. To me the action is a subjective thing - the pressure needed on the string to make a clean sound. That can vary on the same instrument with different players depending on finger placement - close to the fret or in the middle. And on the distance between the frets. (That may not be so clear on a lute, but on an Appalachian dulcimer which is diatonic - so the low frets are very far apart - it is clear. When one fingers a string one is making a small triangle between the fret and the fret below, a bit of local string stretch involved, and it is easier to fully depress at the midpoint between frets, although not musically advisable). So my point is that action is a complicated interaction of string height, string tension, and fret separation. And that is complicated by the large triangle between the bridge and the nut, the middle of the string is relatively softer than the nut or bridge ends - yet it has the greatest range of vibration when played open, so has to have the greatest spacing above the frets to avoid buzz (these latter have contradictory effects, so the string should be higher above the fret at mid range - except that the frets are closer spaced there, so they have a stiffer action due to the fret spacing effect.) Wow, what a lot of stuff to think of. Maybe we should have a multi-contured neck? I don't think I'll try that. I'm over my head. This is a physics of counter effects, and all must be considered. I think I'll let it stay subjective and experimental. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Michael, The ridge closer to the nut quickly wears down lower than the other allowing only one stopping point. Alternately --and I don't know how historically accurate this is-- one can tie two frets of slightly different diameters at each position. I've been doing this for the last year and it works fine. So I assume that for the time it takes the first fret to wear out, ( weeks or months? ) one must endure intonation problems. ..and confining. One may no longer experiment with tempered fretting as suggested by the vihuelists and others. But, as you say, you use metal frets as a guitarmaker I'm sorry, I'm one who is non sympathetic to the idea of moving frets. I don't find it confining at all, in fact, it frees you up, to not constantly worry if your playing out of tune. because a fret has moved, or in a passing moment of tonal relativity, you think that ultimately, you've just managed to tune your lute. Your idea of a perfectly tuned lute, and mine, might be very different as the many systems of tuning attest too. However, your attitude clearly suggests that your system is superior to that of the guitarist. Good for you, Sean. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 11:16 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets The only possible way that double frets could work is if the fret closest to the nut was slightly lower than the other, allowing the string to make contact with the crest of the higher fret. Otherwise you have big intonation problems. Michael, The ridge closer to the nut quickly wears down lower than the other allowing only one stopping point. Alternately --and I don't know how historically accurate this is-- one can tie two frets of slightly different diameters at each position. I've been doing this for the last year and it works fine. As a guitarmaker, I go through great lengths to crown a metal fret exactly at the correct point, this is very important. ..and confining. One may no longer experiment with tempered fretting as suggested by the vihuelists and others. But, as you say, you use metal frets as a guitarmaker. The string should only come it contact with the crest of the fret. This means that that same crest will constantly wear at the same point on the gut string and this tends to wear it out quicker. Between the lower action and doubled frets I'm certain one can get more milage from gut strings on a lute than a guitar. (I wonder if the action and frets were thought out differently from modern guitars when only gut strings were used in, say, the 19th century?) Any difference to this is a personal choice as to how much tolerance one has for out of tunness I'll suppose this includes a tolerance for equal temperment too. ;^) Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
I think that's game set and match to Martyn, then - I've never gone through this well known page looking for frets before, but the only one that seems singularly single is Gentileschi, and he's placed the knots in the perfect place for the hand to know where it is on the neck - must try it some time. Nice try... Tony get out your calipers my friend, and take a look at how large of a spread 1.80mm looks, then take another look ! In these photos there is not even a hint of what looks like two frets together. And if these are not single frets, please show me what a double fret looks like. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets I think that's game set and match to Martyn, then - I've never gone through this well known page looking for frets before, but the only one that seems singularly single is Gentileschi, and he's placed the knots in the perfect place for the hand to know where it is on the neck - must try it some time. Nice try... - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute builder Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:47 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Martyn, Every lute, that has a reasonable close up on this page appears to me to have single frets. Especially, if one uses Dowland's recipe for diameters, in which case, the first two frets on these lutes would be 1.6mm wide and that's not compensating for the .20 or so gap between them. This means that the frets would have to appear twice as wide as the 4th courses on these lutes. This doesn't gel with the string courses that are on most of these lutes. On the other hand please show me a painting that clearly shows double frets. So we then can compare the differences in appearance. I'm sure your familiar with this site. http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: Michael Thames ; Lute Net ; Lute builder Net Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 1:19 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Michael, Thank you for this. I really don't want to spend time going over stuff which has been well discussed before and suggest you look at the archives. However, I will say that most paintings do not show sufficient detail in to readily distinguish whether a fret is a double loop or single; it was as much as many could do to mark a fret at all. Much the same bedivils those trying to research string make up and thicknesses from paintings to estimate historic tensions. However, there are a few pictures with sufficient photographic accuracy (eg Holbien) and these show double loops. I'd be grateful if you could let me know which paintings having this sort of requisite photgraphic accuracy clearly show a single loop. Regarding intonation, as explained, it is the higher (that is higher up the fingerboard towards the bridge) of the two loops which sets the pitch; the lower loop very soon beds in as described earlier. In short, there is no persistent 'twin peaks' phenomenon. If you haven't tried a double loop, I seriously urge you to do so - you'll be pleasantly surpised. regards, Martyn Hodgson Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martyn wrote, The historical evidence is that double fret loops were generally used; always excepting the eccentric Thos Mace (he of the Lute Dyphone - a combined theorboe and lute in one instrument and advocat of frequent do-it-yourself lute repairs: 'A Lute Belly often in need to be taken off' 'once in a year or two') who, whilst advocating single loop frets, when it comes down to it describes the tying of a double loop Martyn, In the lute iconography, I don't recall ever seeing double frets, not to say they haven't existed, just to say that I haven't seen any that I can recall. That being said I'm curious to go through the iconography and look specify for this. If this was as popular as you say, one would have expected to see more, and come to think about it I not seen one modern lute with these either. I've seen allot of paintings of historical lutes, and think it probably safe to sat 99% of what I've seen are single frets. The only possible way that double frets could work is if the fret closest to the nut was slightly lower than the other, allowing the string to make contact with the crest of the higher fret. Otherwise you have big intonation problems. As a guitarmaker, I go through great lengths to crown a metal fret exactly at the correct point, this is very important
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Michael, Unfortunately I no longer have the blow-ups from the Ambassadors on my hard drive. Perhaps if Gernot Hilger still has them he could send you one. If not, I could rephoto the picture I have. There is no uncertainty there. Gernot? Sean Sean, I would Like to see that, so everyone can see the details involved in clearly showing double frets. As I'm sure that this painting shows DF's it still is not convincing evidence that this was a wide spread custom. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 4:44 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Michael, Unfortunately I no longer have the blow-ups from the Ambassadors on my hard drive. Perhaps if Gernot Hilger still has them he could send you one. If not, I could rephoto the picture I have. There is no uncertainty there. Gernot? Sean On Jun 19, 2005, at 3:29 PM, Michael Thames wrote: I think that's game set and match to Martyn, then - I've never gone through this well known page looking for frets before, but the only one that seems singularly single is Gentileschi, and he's placed the knots in the perfect place for the hand to know where it is on the neck - must try it some time. Nice try... Tony get out your calipers my friend, and take a look at how large of a spread 1.80mm looks, then take another look ! In these photos there is not even a hint of what looks like two frets together. And if these are not single frets, please show me what a double fret looks like. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets I think that's game set and match to Martyn, then - I've never gone through this well known page looking for frets before, but the only one that seems singularly single is Gentileschi, and he's placed the knots in the perfect place for the hand to know where it is on the neck - must try it some time. Nice try... - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute builder Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:47 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Martyn, Every lute, that has a reasonable close up on this page appears to me to have single frets. Especially, if one uses Dowland's recipe for diameters, in which case, the first two frets on these lutes would be 1.6mm wide and that's not compensating for the .20 or so gap between them. This means that the frets would have to appear twice as wide as the 4th courses on these lutes. This doesn't gel with the string courses that are on most of these lutes. On the other hand please show me a painting that clearly shows double frets. So we then can compare the differences in appearance. I'm sure your familiar with this site. http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: Michael Thames ; Lute Net ; Lute builder Net Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 1:19 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Michael, Thank you for this. I really don't want to spend time going over stuff which has been well discussed before and suggest you look at the archives. However, I will say that most paintings do not show sufficient detail in to readily distinguish whether a fret is a double loop or single; it was as much as many could do to mark a fret at all. Much the same bedivils those trying to research string make up and thicknesses from paintings to estimate historic tensions. However, there are a few pictures with sufficient photographic accuracy (eg Holbien) and these show double loops. I'd be grateful if you could let me know which paintings having this sort of requisite photgraphic accuracy clearly show a single loop. Regarding intonation, as explained, it is the higher (that is higher up the fingerboard towards the bridge) of the two loops which sets the pitch; the lower loop very soon beds in as described earlier. In short, there is no persistent 'twin peaks' phenomenon. If you haven't tried a double loop, I seriously urge you to do so - you'll be pleasantly surpised. regards, Martyn Hodgson Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martyn wrote, The historical evidence is that double fret loops were generally used; always excepting the eccentric Thos Mace (he of the Lute Dyphone - a combined theorboe and lute in one instrument and advocat of frequent do-it-yourself
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
By the way, apart from the historical evidence matter, double frets are very, very nice to use on lutes. I've had some trouble getting a double-strand tied tight enough in the past, but I really like Sean's idea of using independent frets side-by-side. This makes them easy to tie and allows one to change only the worn one when needed, as well as allowing one to choose slightly smaller upstream frets in the pair. MT, I would second the recommendation that you give them a try. -Peter Well I'm not proud ! So I will give them a try. Would it be safe to say that the second fret prevents the courses from sliding around so much? What is the advantage to these, and seriously, why don't performers use them thesedays. Has anyone talked to the guys at the top, like Odette, Wilson, Barto, Cardin etc. as to their rational behind not using them? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Peter Weiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets By the way, apart from the historical evidence matter, double frets are very, very nice to use on lutes. I've had some trouble getting a double-strand tied tight enough in the past, but I really like Sean's idea of using independent frets side-by-side. This makes them easy to tie and allows one to change only the worn one when needed, as well as allowing one to choose slightly smaller upstream frets in the pair. MT, I would second the recommendation that you give them a try. -Peter -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
I wouldn't think so. I just tie them tighter'n a fratboy on St. Paddy's day. Sean Sean, No I'm not worried about the tied frets I tie these really tight. What I meant was when you press down a course onto the fret, the course has a tendency to slide around a bit, I was thinking that more actual contact surface would help this a bit? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 6:55 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets Would it be safe to say that the second fret prevents the courses from sliding around so much? I wouldn't think so. I just tie them tighter'n a fratboy on St. Paddy's day. Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action? Double frets
Peter, I have to now admit you, Sean, and Kenneth have got me pretty excited to try this. I hope to try this out tomorrow and will report back. I take back all those horrible things I said about Dowland. However I do think the Painting show more single frets than double. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Peter Weiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Double frets I've thought about this for a good hour and I have to say it is a remarkably difficult thing to verbalize. I don't know what commercial pressures the big boys are subject to (and I don't think that's a good measure) but for the rest of us... you're right about a little less tendency to slide on the neck, but there is a certain stability or solidity to the feeling of the note being produced by fretting which is actually a bit more guitar-like. The speed with which a tone is articulated is different. There is a very precise and decisive feel to moderate-gauge double frets. I hope a few others who have better English than I will jump in here! - Peter Well I'm not proud ! So I will give them a try. Would it be safe to say that the second fret prevents the courses from sliding around so much? What is the advantage to these, and seriously, why don't performers use them thesedays. Has anyone talked to the guys at the top, like Odette, Wilson, Barto, Cardin etc. as to their rational behind not using them? Michael Thames -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
I figured we had to be talking at cross-purposes. I think what you've been trying to say is that whatever the neck angle is, it's possible to design an instrument around that neck angle such that the action is perfect. This is quite different from saying it doesn't matter what the neck angle on a lute is, which is what most of us assumed you meant in the context of the Exactly, I guess this rather stubborn streak in me is a result of dealing with guitarist's and repairmen, who are very quick to jump to the conclusion that the neck angle is the source of all evil. With the guitar there are many things that can be done to fine tune the action beyond simply just the neck angle. It's gotten to the point that most guitarist's tell me that the neck angle affects the playability, and the feel or tension of the strings ( which is deferent than simply the height of the strings). This happened 2 days ago. Customer ordered a guitar and was describing to me the string tension he wanted and heard that the neck angle affects the tension. I then said that's untrue. I said many things affect the tension but the most important factor is the stiffness of the top., and the height of the strings off the top. In the lute it's a different story, there is no room for error. For a lute to be properly set up there is no choice the neck angle is a given. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 10:50 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Michael Thames wrote: So I still maintain that perfect action is attainable regardless of the neck angle. I figured we had to be talking at cross-purposes. I think what you've been trying to say is that whatever the neck angle is, it's possible to design an instrument around that neck angle such that the action is perfect. This is quite different from saying it doesn't matter what the neck angle on a lute is, which is what most of us assumed you meant in the context of the discussion. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
Vance wrote, This is not entirely true. The most significant influence upon the action of the Lute is the relationship between the nut and the bridge and how large the clearance is at the joint between the neck and the belly. Vance this isn't true either. The only thing the angle of the neck will affect, is how high off the top the strings ride at the bridge. It has nothing to do with the action. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 3:35 PM Subject: Built-in action? Hi Herbert: You wrote: The action depends on where the _tops_ of the frets are, which is controlled by the person who chooses the fret diameters. This is not entirely true. The most significant influence upon the action of the Lute is the relationship between the nut and the bridge and how large the clearence is at the joint between the neck and the belly. If this is not right it does not matter what kind of frets you choose to put on the Lute, the action will forever suck. The reason that a Lute over time will develop a slower or higher action is due to this joint becoming less than 180 degrees because the tension of the strings has pulled the neck higher. Vance Wood. I have a regard for the dedication and talent of luthiers, who build fine instruments from unformed chunks of wood. Nevertheless, I do not quite understand why they are credited with the action of a lute. The luthier's work merely determines where the _bottoms_ of the frets are. The action depends on where the _tops_ of the frets are, which is controlled by the person who chooses the fret diameters. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
Timothy, I stand by my first statement. First, lets define action which is the height of the bottom of the strings, form the top of the frets. One could angle the neck in any direction, north , south, east, and west, up or down whatever, and still , in all those angles, one could simply maintain a constant height of the string over the frets. This idea of the neck angle affecting the action is a popular misconception by many luthiers. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 11:52 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Michael, Sure it does. If the neck angles back it brings the strings closer to paralleling the neck, assuming that the height of the nut and bridge stay the same. That in turn means that there is a limit to how high you can raise the action by raising the nut before the strings actually angle the wrong way relative to the neck. But the angle of the neck doesn't have much affect on how high up off the soundboard the strings will be. That is mostly determined by the height of the bridge. I just got finished fixing a problem with the neck angling back too much, so I've had reason to know what the effect of neck angle will be. Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Built-in action? Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:20:55 -0600 Vance wrote, This is not entirely true. The most significant influence upon the action of the Lute is the relationship between the nut and the bridge and how large the clearance is at the joint between the neck and the belly. Vance this isn't true either. The only thing the angle of the neck will affect, is how high off the top the strings ride at the bridge. It has nothing to do with the action. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 3:35 PM Subject: Built-in action? Hi Herbert: You wrote: The action depends on where the _tops_ of the frets are, which is controlled by the person who chooses the fret diameters. This is not entirely true. The most significant influence upon the action of the Lute is the relationship between the nut and the bridge and how large the clearence is at the joint between the neck and the belly. If this is not right it does not matter what kind of frets you choose to put on the Lute, the action will forever suck. The reason that a Lute over time will develop a slower or higher action is due to this joint becoming less than 180 degrees because the tension of the strings has pulled the neck higher. Vance Wood. I have a regard for the dedication and talent of luthiers, who build fine instruments from unformed chunks of wood. Nevertheless, I do not quite understand why they are credited with the action of a lute. The luthier's work merely determines where the _bottoms_ of the frets are. The action depends on where the _tops_ of the frets are, which is controlled by the person who chooses the fret diameters. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
I've played many baroque guitars where the neck angle definitely affects the action, same with classical guitars. James I'm saying the most important single aspect, in the set up, is the height of the strings off the top. This has a profound influence on the tone of either a lute, or guitar. This ideal height can only vary by 1 or perhaps 2 mm. The neck angle determines the bridge height. From that point, you then, can fine tune the action. This theory assumes one has some experience in the proper set up of lutes, and guitars. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 1:52 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? In a message dated 6/17/2005 12:33:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's not a misconception - on a classical guitar, as you surely know, one method of construction has the neck in line with the body, but then the fingerboard is thinner at the higher frets, producing the same effect as angling the neck upwards - on this point I disagree with Tim. If you angle the neck backwards and your fingerboard is uniform thickness, then you are likely to buzz from the first fret - the pull of the strings may compensate. I've played many baroque guitars where the neck angle definitely affects the action, same with classical guitars. James -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
I just got finished fixing a problem with the neck angling back too much, so I've had reason to know what the effect of neck angle will be Timothy, sounds like you were reading Lundberg's bad advice about angling the neck back. It should be angled forward. As you see this doesn't work out so well. Unless you like the strings to float 10mm off the top. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 11:52 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Michael, Sure it does. If the neck angles back it brings the strings closer to paralleling the neck, assuming that the height of the nut and bridge stay the same. That in turn means that there is a limit to how high you can raise the action by raising the nut before the strings actually angle the wrong way relative to the neck. But the angle of the neck doesn't have much affect on how high up off the soundboard the strings will be. That is mostly determined by the height of the bridge. I just got finished fixing a problem with the neck angling back too much, so I've had reason to know what the effect of neck angle will be. Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Built-in action? Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:20:55 -0600 Vance wrote, This is not entirely true. The most significant influence upon the action of the Lute is the relationship between the nut and the bridge and how large the clearance is at the joint between the neck and the belly. Vance this isn't true either. The only thing the angle of the neck will affect, is how high off the top the strings ride at the bridge. It has nothing to do with the action. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 3:35 PM Subject: Built-in action? Hi Herbert: You wrote: The action depends on where the _tops_ of the frets are, which is controlled by the person who chooses the fret diameters. This is not entirely true. The most significant influence upon the action of the Lute is the relationship between the nut and the bridge and how large the clearence is at the joint between the neck and the belly. If this is not right it does not matter what kind of frets you choose to put on the Lute, the action will forever suck. The reason that a Lute over time will develop a slower or higher action is due to this joint becoming less than 180 degrees because the tension of the strings has pulled the neck higher. Vance Wood. I have a regard for the dedication and talent of luthiers, who build fine instruments from unformed chunks of wood. Nevertheless, I do not quite understand why they are credited with the action of a lute. The luthier's work merely determines where the _bottoms_ of the frets are. The action depends on where the _tops_ of the frets are, which is controlled by the person who chooses the fret diameters. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
Another, way to look at it, is Humphrey's Millennium guitar, with an EXTREME neck angle, however the action is pretty good, at least on the ones set up by Jurlick out in LA. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 1:52 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? In a message dated 6/17/2005 12:33:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's not a misconception - on a classical guitar, as you surely know, one method of construction has the neck in line with the body, but then the fingerboard is thinner at the higher frets, producing the same effect as angling the neck upwards - on this point I disagree with Tim. If you angle the neck backwards and your fingerboard is uniform thickness, then you are likely to buzz from the first fret - the pull of the strings may compensate. I've played many baroque guitars where the neck angle definitely affects the action, same with classical guitars. James -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
This is geometrically impossible, and you must be talking about a different angle from the one everyone else is talking about. They're talking about changing the angle of the neck to the plane of the top. Imagine a triangle in which point A is the bridge, point B is any fret, point C is the nut, and point D is a point on the string directly above above point B. You can't move point C without changing the distance between points B and D. HP Howard, I'm afraid you are wrong! If your referring to a working functional instrument, extreme neck angles at some point would be dysfunctional. However, in theory or on paper it works doesn't it ? Just look at Humphrey's guitar, and keep imagining more and more of an angle, but instead of moving the neck to change the angle you move the top, which is what he did. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 5:15 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Michael Thames wrote: One could angle the neck in any direction, north , south, east, and west, up or down whatever, and still , in all those angles, one could simply maintain a constant height of the string over the frets. This is geometrically impossible, and you must be talking about a different angle from the one everyone else is talking about. They're talking about changing the angle of the neck to the plane of the top. Imagine a triangle in which point A is the bridge, point B is any fret, point C is the nut, and point D is a point on the string directly above above point B. You can't move point C without changing the distance between points B and D. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
One more example would be a cello or violin which has an EXTREME neck angle, this doesn't effect the action, now does it. It only affects how far of the top, the strings ride, like I've been saying. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 5:15 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Michael Thames wrote: One could angle the neck in any direction, north , south, east, and west, up or down whatever, and still , in all those angles, one could simply maintain a constant height of the string over the frets. This is geometrically impossible, and you must be talking about a different angle from the one everyone else is talking about. They're talking about changing the angle of the neck to the plane of the top. Imagine a triangle in which point A is the bridge, point B is any fret, point C is the nut, and point D is a point on the string directly above above point B. You can't move point C without changing the distance between points B and D. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
Michael Thames wrote: I'm afraid you are wrong! Howard wrote... They would be dysfunctional because the ANGLE OF THE NECK MAKES THE ACTION TOO HIGH, right? Which is to say that you can't change the angle of the neck to the plane of the top without changing the action Howard, the fatal flaw in your theory is, your assuming that the neck joined at the body can't move, only the nut end can move. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 6:17 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Michael Thames wrote: One could angle the neck in any direction, north , south, east, and west, up or down whatever, and still , in all those angles, one could simply maintain a constant height of the string over the frets. I wrote: This is geometrically impossible, and you must be talking about a different angle from the one everyone else is talking about. They're talking about changing the angle of the neck to the plane of the top. Imagine a triangle in which point A is the bridge, point B is any fret, point C is the nut, and point D is a point on the string directly above above point B. You can't move point C without changing the distance between points B and D. Michael Thames wrote: I'm afraid you are wrong! If I am, so are you, because your next sentence agrees with what I wrote. If your referring to a working functional instrument, extreme neck angles at some point would be dysfunctional. They would be dysfunctional because the ANGLE OF THE NECK MAKES THE ACTION TOO HIGH, right? Which is to say that you can't change the angle of the neck to the plane of the top without changing the action. This happens all the time: the force of the strings over time pulls the neck forward, raising the nut and increasing the depth of the triangle I described, so the action is higher. However, in theory or on paper it works doesn't it ? Just look at Humphrey's guitar, and keep imagining more and more of an angle, but instead of moving the neck to change the angle you move the top, which is what he did. If we're talking about the same instruments, he also builds up the fingerboard to bring it closer to the strings. Indeed, I usually hear about this style of building as the raised fingerboard. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
Lutenists tend stay away from lutes with moving neck joints. The Schelle therobo has a hinge on the neck. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 8:22 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Lutenists tend stay away from lutes with moving neck joints. I'm afraid you are wrong! Howard wrote... They would be dysfunctional because the ANGLE OF THE NECK MAKES THE ACTION TOO HIGH, right? Which is to say that you can't change the angle of the neck to the plane of the top without changing the action Howard, the fatal flaw in your theory is, your assuming that the neck joined at the body can't move, only the nut end can move. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 6:17 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Michael Thames wrote: One could angle the neck in any direction, north , south, east, and west, up or down whatever, and still , in all those angles, one could simply maintain a constant height of the string over the frets. I wrote: This is geometrically impossible, and you must be talking about a different angle from the one everyone else is talking about. They're talking about changing the angle of the neck to the plane of the top. Imagine a triangle in which point A is the bridge, point B is any fret, point C is the nut, and point D is a point on the string directly above above point B. You can't move point C without changing the distance between points B and D. Michael Thames wrote: I'm afraid you are wrong! If I am, so are you, because your next sentence agrees with what I wrote. If your referring to a working functional instrument, extreme neck angles at some point would be dysfunctional. They would be dysfunctional because the ANGLE OF THE NECK MAKES THE ACTION TOO HIGH, right? Which is to say that you can't change the angle of the neck to the plane of the top without changing the action. This happens all the time: the force of the strings over time pulls the neck forward, raising the nut and increasing the depth of the triangle I described, so the action is higher. However, in theory or on paper it works doesn't it ? Just look at Humphrey's guitar, and keep imagining more and more of an angle, but instead of moving the neck to change the angle you move the top, which is what he did. If we're talking about the same instruments, he also builds up the fingerboard to bring it closer to the strings. Indeed, I usually hear about this style of building as the raised fingerboard. HP http://polyhymnion.org ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
I am not fond of the Humphrey paradigm. (This is my personal taste and yours may differ without shame.) Every one I've encountered I would condsider rather brassy toned, a bit harsh. I agree, don't get me going on what I think of those things. I will say this, the brassy tone has everything to do with the fact that the strings ride a good 15mm off the top. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: EUGENE BRAIG IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Craig Robert Pierpont [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Built-in action? - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, June 17, 2005 11:20 pm Subject: Re: Built-in action? Well all I can say, is that I've given two different examples of radically different neck angles, Humphrey, and the opposite of that angle, a cello, and both have, or can have what is considered perfect ACTION. So I still maintain that perfect action is attainable regardless of the neck angle. Not regardless. Even if you can maintain a working string height above fingerboard, a point comes that the angle just can't work. You can't make a functional necked chordophone where the neck comes into the table at 90 degrees, e.g. (unless you count washtub bass). I am not fond of the Humphrey paradigm. (This is my personal taste and yours may differ without shame.) Every one I've encountered I would condsider rather brassy toned, a bit harsh. His Millennium system, at least in some small part, is a knock off of the early 19th-c. Legnani-model guitars by Staufer as well as his proteges and emulators. The older paradigm featured the same neck angle, angled into the table. In addition, the neck featured a clock-key adjustable angle. Of course, the bridge fixed, changing the angle thus would substantially change action. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
I love Dowland's music, and consider him one of my best loved composers of all time. However, at the time he recommended these fret diameters, as well as the double frets, he must have been seeing double, in a drunken melancholy stooper. The idea that Martyn uses Dowland as his source, and narrows down 300 years, of lute history to this remark, really makes me scratch my head. If anyone can barre the second fret cleanly, all the way across and play divisions at the same time on 80mm frets my hats off to you! I'm sure it can be done, with allot of needless effort. That's the equivalent of playing and old worn out guitar, in desperate need of a fret job. Some guitarist's I know ask for high frets if their doing allot of site reading, saying this makes it easier to read through music, eliminating pin point accuracy. Martyn, what's wrong with a little personal adjustment to the playing action. On both my Baroque, and 6 course ren lute, I have 1.20mm fret gut all the way up, and love it. The phenomena of high frets hit the guitar world about 20 years ago. It started in LA, CA. by Pepe Romero, and then all the LA guitarist's like Scott Tenet etc. started using them. The consensus was, you need less pressure to press down the string as your finger immediately feels the connection to the fret. The other side to this is, playing Tarrega, Segovia's style, and the romantic repertoire, incorporating sliding up the fingerboard on one string. In this case, high frets can tend to feel like railroad ties, as your going down the track. However, I've not come across this technique in any lute music. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 2:28 AM Subject: Re: Built-in action? Dear Martyn and All, The really interesting thing about Varietie is how thin the frets are. Dowland says use a fourth course string for frets 1 and 2, a third course for frets 3 and 4, second course for frets 5 and 6, and first course for frets 7 to 10. Our best estimate of likely string diameters therefore suggests a maximum of about .80mm, .64mm, .50mm, and .42mm for fret diameters, perhaps even thinner for the first course diameter because D was talking about a double first course. Has anyone tried using a .40mm fret? Even allowing for the fact that he was using double frets, this seems incredibly thin. Many modern players (admittedly using single frets) have tended to use very large diameter frets because that say it helps concentrate the pressure on the string rather than the fingerboard (especially if you have fleshy finger ends, which I guess was never the case for impoverished 16thC musicians!). They also claim large frets make playing ornaments easier. Comments, anyone? Best wishes, Martin Martyn Hodgson wrote: Martin, Yes. But one of the problems continues to be the reluctance of players to employ well graduated frets which allows the lute to be 'set fine' (low action in modern parlance). You only need to read 'Varietie' to understand the quite severe graduations required (cf. many current frettings) and the thickness of the first fret. Incidentally, by using graduated frets the 'Old Ones' clearly showed they well understood the importance of displacement to the fingerboard rather than just to the top of the fret.. Again, we should always aim to refer to historical information if we are to approach what they expected. rgds Martyn */Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Dear All, Michael Lowe told me recently that he thought luthiers spent the first 30 years of their working lives making lutes, and the second thirty years adjusting actions Best wishes, Martin Ed Durbrow wrote: Herb, There is more to it than that. Your description assumes that the top of the neck is in a straight line with the soundboard. Actually, on some lutes the neck tilts back a fraction. That brings the line of the strings closer to parallel with the neck to make the action more even from the top of the neck to the bottom without placing the strings too close to the soundboard at the bridge. And, as Gernot points out, the strings can be of quite different diameters, with gut bass strings being quite fat. That requires the luthier to either cant the neck towards the bass side, tilt the bridge towards the treble, or both. I've just finished fussing with a lute I built in which the action was wrong and required remedial work. It was quite a learning experience, and I have much greater app It's always boggled my mind how luthers can get it right. I'd like to know how much leeway they have when considering how heavy
Re: any particular recommendations for micrometers
Wayne, Stu Mac sells a digital caliper much more readable, and so more accurate. They customized it so you can take a reading with the fret gut on the lute. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Calipers.html Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Wayne Cripps [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:52 AM Subject: any particular recommendations for micrometers Hi - Do any of you have any particular recommendations for micrometers or calipers for measuring string and fret thickness? Is there any advantage to getting good ones, or is the advantage in quality tools more how long it lasts than how accurate it is? Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Built-in action?
Well said everyone, but I'd like to add that the difference between .90mm fret gut, and lets say 1.20mm ( both extremes) is only .30 mm that's not much! So really what can be done with fret gut is very small compared to the actual construction and built in set up of a lute. Some people advocate using higher fret gut for the first fret, and decreasing the diameters as you go up the neck. This makes no sense unless you are trying to compensate for a bad set up from the beginning. The larger diameter fret gut makes barreing much easier than low fret gut. As one barres a chord with low frets ones knuckle presses against the fingerboard, but the soft fleshy part of the finger won't press down the 2nd course. On high frets one can press down without hitting the fingerboard so in my opinion low fret gut should be avoided at all costs, even going up the neck, if one wants relief in the neck the luthier should built it in the neck before fretting it. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:46 PM Subject: RE: Built-in action? Herb, There is more to it than that. Your description assumes that the top of the neck is in a straight line with the soundboard. Actually, on some lutes the neck tilts back a fraction. That brings the line of the strings closer to parallel with the neck to make the action more even from the top of the neck to the bottom without placing the strings too close to the soundboard at the bridge. And, as Gernot points out, the strings can be of quite different diameters, with gut bass strings being quite fat. That requires the luthier to either cant the neck towards the bass side, tilt the bridge towards the treble, or both. I've just finished fussing with a lute I built in which the action was wrong and required remedial work. It was quite a learning experience, and I have much greater appreciation for a lute in which the action is good. These instruments seem simple at first, but when you start measuring and comparing one to another, you find that there is a great deal of subtle variation that a luthier can put in to alter the sound and playing properties. Building a basic lute wasn't that hard for me, but I'm finding that building a good lute is a challenge. I didn't get there with this lute; perhaps with the next one. Tim Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: Built-in action? Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:35:13 -0500 (CDT) I have a regard for the dedication and talent of luthiers, who build fine instruments from unformed chunks of wood. Nevertheless, I do not quite understand why they are credited with the action of a lute. The luthier's work merely determines where the _bottoms_ of the frets are. The action depends on where the _tops_ of the frets are, which is controlled by the person who chooses the fret diameters. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Dalsa translation
To all, but especially Denys, I just got the facsimile of Dalsa, Intabulatura de Lauto Libro Quarto editions Minkoff. I was wondering if anyone knows of a translation of the introduction, and tuning instructions in English? Also Denys, what lute journal did your article on Dalsa appear in? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Dresden MS
Hi Markus, Good to know I'm not the only one who notices this. Also, good to know that it was the publishers decision and not Tim Crawford's. Yes, these editions I feel are well worth the price, they lay well on the music stand, and the pages stay put. There is another edition of the Dresden MS, of a smaller book, with 34 sonatas, non edited facsimiles, that is very nice as well, but seems to be out of print. I wonder if anyone out there has this edition, and would like to sell it? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Markus Lutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 2:59 AM Subject: Re: Dresden MS Hi Michael, the criticism on the mixture of facsimile and modern tablature is also a thing that I really can concur with. I have spoken with Tim Crawford about that and he wrote,that it wasn't his decision but had to do with the principles of the Erbe Deutscher Musik, that the Weiss works are published in. They want to make performance editions, so we probably can be lucky to have also the facsimiles, as modern intabulations always seem to be error-prone ... But anyway the edition is really worth the money it costs, although it is very expensive. Best Markus On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:06:30 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: MT Just got the first volume of the Dresden MS, edited by Tim Crawford. Super nice paper, something that will last forever. MTI do have one criticism of this edition however. The computer generated tablature is mixed in with the facsimiles, ( a real drag). It would have be much better to put all the facsimiles together in one section, and a reference to the computer tab in the back of the book. MT I don't understand Tim Crawford's criteria for eliminating some of the facsimiles, and classifying them as damaged, and therefore eliminated from the main body of facsimiles. MT I have been reading from Xeroxed copies of these so called, damaged facsimiles, for quite a while, with no problems. Oh Well. MT MT Michael Thames MT www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com MT -- MT MT To get on or off this list see list information at MT http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html MT
Dresden MS
Just got the first volume of the Dresden MS, edited by Tim Crawford. Super nice paper, something that will last forever. I do have one criticism of this edition however. The computer generated tablature is mixed in with the facsimiles, ( a real drag). It would have be much better to put all the facsimiles together in one section, and a reference to the computer tab in the back of the book. I don't understand Tim Crawford's criteria for eliminating some of the facsimiles, and classifying them as damaged, and therefore eliminated from the main body of facsimiles. I have been reading from Xeroxed copies of these so called, damaged facsimiles, for quite a while, with no problems. Oh Well. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Sticky fingers
Hmm. You may have something here. It would be funny if my sticking fingers were because I'd overzealously scrubbed all the natural oil out of my skin A little bow resin on the tips works wonders. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Chad McAnally [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 4:00 PM Subject: Re:Sweat Fingertips Hmm. You may have something here. It would be funny if my sticking fingers were because I'd overzealously scrubbed all the natural oil out of my skin. I found this to be the case. If I wash my hands too compulsively my fingers grip too much in humid weather and slip terribly in very dry weather. It is bad enough on lute, but the effect is even worse on the early harps, where slippery fingers make playing and damping much harder. I switched hand soaps to one of the more natural soaps, i.e. devoid of the harsh chemicals, and this helped a great deal. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
You are still missing the point. The moulds my be symmetrical, and the necks symmetrical, but do the plans and drawings show a symmetrical alignment between both elements? The only lutes that could possibly be symmetrical, neck and body, would be early 6 course lutes at the turn of the 16th century, of which none have survived in original condition, or at least were told. The Gerle looks very symmetrical neck, and body from pictures, but I don't have the plans for that one to compare. Since this thread has revolved around Strad's 11 course lute template, of the body only, I think Vance, it might be you who are missing the point. I have a pretty good collection of lute plans by various people. When I have some spare time I'll draw up some body shapes and compare the mirror images on a number of them, at least there will be less speculation, and more facts. I can then post my findings. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:34 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect You are still missing the point. The moulds my be symmetrical, and the necks symmetrical, but do the plans and drawings show a symmetrical alignment between both elements? Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 12:44 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Vance said The point here is that the use of asymmetry was to create the illusion of symmetry. Why would anyone want the illusion of symmetry, when one can have the real thing? Stradivari obviously thought very highly of symmetry, since all of his moulds are symmetrical. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect After reading Mr. Lundbergs book several times I have come to the conclusion that he must be correct. He claims to have examined actual instruments that all show the same asymmetry, the neck cocked toward the base side of the Lute. He goes on to explain that the body does indeed have a center line, and the neck does indeed have a center line, but the juxtaposition of both elements does not extend the two center lines so that they become one common center line. Can anyone site an historical instrument where a common center line is obvious? I realize the argument can be made that the instruments have become warped and twisted over time but knowing wood as I do, if that were so, there would be evidence in a dramatic distortion of both the treble and base sides of the bowel. The base side would show evidence of compression causing an obvious kink near the joint of the neck and bowel. The treble side would show evidence of separation at the same point understanding that wood this old cannot be stretched, it only cracks and separates. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 3:15 PM Subject: RE: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hi Michael, Going back to your initial posting about lute symmetry. In the Stradivari workshop on your recent trip to Italy, you saw a paper template for a lute body, folded along the centre-line. Is it clear how this template was used? I can see many possibiltys, including the possiblity of other templates now missing. Perhaps this was part of a study, and represents another makers work; are there any strad-made lutes surviving to compare this template to? Sorry, i suppose lots of this has been discussed already, I have been skipping lots of email the past few weeks, too much apparant flaming, not enough time to indulge in reading, let alone responding. -- dana emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Vance, I know you want to debate this thing, but I know lutes bodies, with their necks are asymmetrical. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:37 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect I look forward to that but let's make sure we are on the same page. I am looking at symmetricality in Lute making as two combined symmetrical element joined together in an asymmetrical configuration. In other words the center line of the neck is not parallel or continuous with the center line of the body, belly, sound board assembly. I do not argue the symmetricality of the Lute bodies you have been discussing, I am arguing the total symmetricality of the assembled Lute where, as Lundberg says, is asymmetrical in regards to the alignment of neck to body. Myself I would like to believe that they are and should be symmetrical, it seems more logical and is much easier to manufacture/craft. But if the evidence points the other direction then we are left with either ignoring it and doing it our way, trying to find out why this alignment occurs, or just copy it in our instruments with the caveat; this is the way a Lute is supposed to be made. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:23 AM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect You are still missing the point. The moulds my be symmetrical, and the necks symmetrical, but do the plans and drawings show a symmetrical alignment between both elements? The only lutes that could possibly be symmetrical, neck and body, would be early 6 course lutes at the turn of the 16th century, of which none have survived in original condition, or at least were told. The Gerle looks very symmetrical neck, and body from pictures, but I don't have the plans for that one to compare. Since this thread has revolved around Strad's 11 course lute template, of the body only, I think Vance, it might be you who are missing the point. I have a pretty good collection of lute plans by various people. When I have some spare time I'll draw up some body shapes and compare the mirror images on a number of them, at least there will be less speculation, and more facts. I can then post my findings. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:34 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect You are still missing the point. The moulds my be symmetrical, and the necks symmetrical, but do the plans and drawings show a symmetrical alignment between both elements? Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 12:44 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Vance said The point here is that the use of asymmetry was to create the illusion of symmetry. Why would anyone want the illusion of symmetry, when one can have the real thing? Stradivari obviously thought very highly of symmetry, since all of his moulds are symmetrical. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect After reading Mr. Lundbergs book several times I have come to the conclusion that he must be correct. He claims to have examined actual instruments that all show the same asymmetry, the neck cocked toward the base side of the Lute. He goes on to explain that the body does indeed have a center line, and the neck does indeed have a center line, but the juxtaposition of both elements does not extend the two center lines so that they become one common center line. Can anyone site an historical instrument where a common center line is obvious? I realize the argument can be made that the instruments have become warped and twisted over time but knowing wood as I do, if that were so, there would be evidence in a dramatic distortion of both the treble and base sides of the bowel. The base side would show evidence of compression causing an obvious kink near the joint of the neck and bowel. The treble side would show evidence of separation at the same point understanding that wood
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Now my question: has anyone made a lute according to Strad's plans? If not, Michael, if you have copies of the plans, maybe you could be the first one? Hi Marion, I don't have the actual plans, or template, and didn't think to ask anyone, at the time while I was there in Cermona. As Trovosky points out they probably won't give a Mickey Mouse luthier such as I, access, anyway. I only have a book with photos. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:45 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect For a lute to be functional, it must be asymmetric with respect to all symmetry operations. There is no reason for the body of a lute to appear asymmetric. Lutes are not like some guitars with cutouts for the trebble notes. The body (minus the bridge) can look symmetric from from the outside but the neck and nut will always be assymetric due to the difference between the trebble and bass strings. I would think it more efficient to make a lute (or any other object) with a symmetric body from a construction point of view whether the construction takes place now or 500 years ago. Any planned departure from symmetry should be justified as it complicates the construction process. I think we agree on this and if there is some point of disagreement I am not sure what it is. It is not clear what is left to debate. It seems to me that everyone has said mostly the same thing or at least something consistent indifferent words. Now my question: has anyone made a lute according to Strad's plans? If not, Michael, if you have copies of the plans, maybe you could be the first one? -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Jun 2, 2005 2:31 PM To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Vance, I know you want to debate this thing, but I know lutes bodies, with their necks are asymmetrical. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:37 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect I look forward to that but let's make sure we are on the same page. I am looking at symmetricality in Lute making as two combined symmetrical element joined together in an asymmetrical configuration. In other words the center line of the neck is not parallel or continuous with the center line of the body, belly, sound board assembly. I do not argue the symmetricality of the Lute bodies you have been discussing, I am arguing the total symmetricality of the assembled Lute where, as Lundberg says, is asymmetrical in regards to the alignment of neck to body. Myself I would like to believe that they are and should be symmetrical, it seems more logical and is much easier to manufacture/craft. But if the evidence points the other direction then we are left with either ignoring it and doing it our way, trying to find out why this alignment occurs, or just copy it in our instruments with the caveat; this is the way a Lute is supposed to be made. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:23 AM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect You are still missing the point. The moulds my be symmetrical, and the necks symmetrical, but do the plans and drawings show a symmetrical alignment between both elements? The only lutes that could possibly be symmetrical, neck and body, would be early 6 course lutes at the turn of the 16th century, of which none have survived in original condition, or at least were told. The Gerle looks very symmetrical neck, and body from pictures, but I don't have the plans for that one to compare. Since this thread has revolved around Strad's 11 course lute template, of the body only, I think Vance, it might be you who are missing the point. I have a pretty good collection of lute plans by various people. When I have some spare time I'll draw up some body shapes and compare the mirror images on a number of them, at least there will be less speculation, and more facts. I can then post my findings. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:34 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect You are still missing the point. The moulds my be symmetrical
Re: Antwort: Re: Mudarra's bordon
Hi Michael, actually italian tab is quite easy. Just imagine to look *through* your lute and you'll see the numbers just on the right position. Hi Thomas, Very help tip, that made it much easier. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:38 AM Subject: Antwort: Re: Mudarra's bordon Hi Michael, actually italian tab is quite easy. Just imagine to look *through* your lute and you'll see the numbers just on the right position. Only the 8th - 14th course sometimes have odd signs one might need to get used to. I found most italian facsimiles easier to read than english facsimiles. The only disadvantage is that it's not so easy to add and later to recognize fingerings for the left hand which I would write in numbers. Best wishes Thomas Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 31.05.2005 16:08:14 An:Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kopie: Thema: Re: Mudarra's bordon Sean, Thanks for the encouragement, I was hopping someone with experience with Italian Tab. would find it attainable with a little effort, and spur me on. I much prefer to read from facsimiles. I bit the bullet a few months ago, and got the facsimiles of both the London, and Dresden MS. edited by DAS. BTW, OMI in NY has a compressive catalogue of Facsimiles, for guitar and lute. The Capriola in color is $33 ,and the Dalsa, is $38. http://www.omifacsimiles.com/mgencatalogs.html Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:52 PM Subject: Re: Mudarra's bordon Dear Michael, Italian tab is indeed learnable. I put it off for 20 years and then lived it with it exclusively for a week and found it no biggy. I started with single line pieces such as Francesco's canon and then worked my way into dances w/ simple bass lines and then on to the ricercares. Eventually I saw all the same patterns I remembered from French tab and it just fell into place. The Capirola book is one of the finest sources of late 15th cent lute music. Some of Josquin's, Agricola's and Brumel's fine motets are there and intabulated very well. Some of the biggest hits of the 15th century are also found there: Ales Regrets and Nunquam fuit as well as a few popular current songs and the dances you mentioned. It's a wonderfully alive period of music and Capirola reflects this nicely. There are so few mistakes and it is written so clearly that a modern edition is superfluous --and you probably won't get all the cool and humorous pictures! I remember seeing Jacob Heringmann give his Josquin concert and he simply played from the facsimile. If you were interested in further notes about it then I would second Denys' suggestion of the Otto Gombosi book which should be available in any decent college music library. Btw, Capirola's introduction is translated at Federico Marincola's Lutebot site: http://www.marincola.com/lutebot1.txt On the 4th course octave question. With a little practice and focus you can either accentuate or downplay the octave jangle as you see fit with either fingers or thumb. It's more a question of attack. Good luck, Sean On May 30, 2005, at 8:58 PM, Michael Thames wrote: Dear Michael, I understand why you are confused now! You are not looking at the original. Denys and Leonard, Thanks for the info. I can see now why I was confused. I've always been afraid of Italian tab. However, considering that 90% of the ren. lute music I play is early Italian perhaps I should make a effort to read Italian Tab? Just in case.Has anyone produced a good reliable edition of Dalsa, Spinacino, and Capriola in French Tab. for 6 course lute? I was at a Master class with Paul Odette, and had just began playing a 6 course lute with an octave on the 4th course. I mentioned how strange it sounded to me after playing an 8 course with the unison 4th course. Paul then started to demonstrate many examples of the advantages of an octave on the 4th course. One of the examples was the Padoana by Capriola, which if I remember correctly he only played the octave at certain times, of the fourth course? Is this what is meant as splitting a course? Denys, thanks for the Dalsa peices I love this stuff! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 5:39 AM Subject: Re: Mudarra's bordon Dear Michael, I understand why you are confused now! You are not looking at the original. I
Re: Mudarra's bordon
Sean, Thanks for the encouragement, I was hopping someone with experience with Italian Tab. would find it attainable with a little effort, and spur me on. I much prefer to read from facsimiles. I bit the bullet a few months ago, and got the facsimiles of both the London, and Dresden MS. edited by DAS. BTW, OMI in NY has a compressive catalogue of Facsimiles, for guitar and lute. The Capriola in color is $33 ,and the Dalsa, is $38. http://www.omifacsimiles.com/mgencatalogs.html Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:52 PM Subject: Re: Mudarra's bordon Dear Michael, Italian tab is indeed learnable. I put it off for 20 years and then lived it with it exclusively for a week and found it no biggy. I started with single line pieces such as Francesco's canon and then worked my way into dances w/ simple bass lines and then on to the ricercares. Eventually I saw all the same patterns I remembered from French tab and it just fell into place. The Capirola book is one of the finest sources of late 15th cent lute music. Some of Josquin's, Agricola's and Brumel's fine motets are there and intabulated very well. Some of the biggest hits of the 15th century are also found there: Ales Regrets and Nunquam fuit as well as a few popular current songs and the dances you mentioned. It's a wonderfully alive period of music and Capirola reflects this nicely. There are so few mistakes and it is written so clearly that a modern edition is superfluous --and you probably won't get all the cool and humorous pictures! I remember seeing Jacob Heringmann give his Josquin concert and he simply played from the facsimile. If you were interested in further notes about it then I would second Denys' suggestion of the Otto Gombosi book which should be available in any decent college music library. Btw, Capirola's introduction is translated at Federico Marincola's Lutebot site: http://www.marincola.com/lutebot1.txt On the 4th course octave question. With a little practice and focus you can either accentuate or downplay the octave jangle as you see fit with either fingers or thumb. It's more a question of attack. Good luck, Sean On May 30, 2005, at 8:58 PM, Michael Thames wrote: Dear Michael, I understand why you are confused now! You are not looking at the original. Denys and Leonard, Thanks for the info. I can see now why I was confused. I've always been afraid of Italian tab. However, considering that 90% of the ren. lute music I play is early Italian perhaps I should make a effort to read Italian Tab? Just in case.Has anyone produced a good reliable edition of Dalsa, Spinacino, and Capriola in French Tab. for 6 course lute? I was at a Master class with Paul Odette, and had just began playing a 6 course lute with an octave on the 4th course. I mentioned how strange it sounded to me after playing an 8 course with the unison 4th course. Paul then started to demonstrate many examples of the advantages of an octave on the 4th course. One of the examples was the Padoana by Capriola, which if I remember correctly he only played the octave at certain times, of the fourth course? Is this what is meant as splitting a course? Denys, thanks for the Dalsa peices I love this stuff! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 5:39 AM Subject: Re: Mudarra's bordon Dear Michael, I understand why you are confused now! You are not looking at the original. I have some of the Lyre Music publications myself and think that they are extremely valuable - the Art of Lute in Renaissance Italy make a lot of music available that would be very hard and expensive to collect in the original sources. In my copy of the dances volume some of the pieces have been rearranged for 7 course lute - this is quite handy for players who have a 7 or 8 course instrument as it avoids the need to retune. It's not entirely unauthentic as it is recorded that 7 course lutes were known in the early 16th century. But the original music was not notated that way - both in Dalza Capirola the pieces with the 6th course detuned by a tone are written on a 6 line stave for 6 course lute. The same applies for the Dalza pieces that also have the 5th course lowered by a tone. All you have to do is retune the relevant basses and play as if the instrument was tuned normally. Where these pieces have been re-written for a 7 course lute it is assumed that the 7th course is tuned a tone below the 6th. The notes on the de-tuned 6th course in the original are omitted and replaced by the open 7th
New Santa Fe perfomace space
I just found out about a new performance space in Santa Fe, something we desperately need in these here parts. Though it might be of interest to some of you all who might be in the area. GiG is a small, elegant state-of-the-art performance space presenting events 4-5 nights a week. Each week features evenings devoted to Jazz, Classical, World, Folk, Hispanic Music and Spoken Word performances. GiG is dedicated to promoting the finest local, regional and national artists, assisting in artist development and developing the performance culture of Santa Fe. It is a smoke and alcohol- free environment and provides a relaxed and respectful venue for both artist and audience. All events will be webcast (soon OK). GiG incorporates video and audio studios that provide archival and production facilities for performances. GiG also provides extensive educational programming. GiG is presented by the Open Arts Foundation, producers of The Santa Fe Jazz International Music Festival, a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Mudarra's bordon
Dear Michael, I understand why you are confused now! You are not looking at the original. Denys and Leonard, Thanks for the info. I can see now why I was confused. I've always been afraid of Italian tab. However, considering that 90% of the ren. lute music I play is early Italian perhaps I should make a effort to read Italian Tab? Just in case.Has anyone produced a good reliable edition of Dalsa, Spinacino, and Capriola in French Tab. for 6 course lute? I was at a Master class with Paul Odette, and had just began playing a 6 course lute with an octave on the 4th course. I mentioned how strange it sounded to me after playing an 8 course with the unison 4th course. Paul then started to demonstrate many examples of the advantages of an octave on the 4th course. One of the examples was the Padoana by Capriola, which if I remember correctly he only played the octave at certain times, of the fourth course? Is this what is meant as splitting a course? Denys, thanks for the Dalsa peices I love this stuff! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 5:39 AM Subject: Re: Mudarra's bordon Dear Michael, I understand why you are confused now! You are not looking at the original. I have some of the Lyre Music publications myself and think that they are extremely valuable - the Art of Lute in Renaissance Italy make a lot of music available that would be very hard and expensive to collect in the original sources. In my copy of the dances volume some of the pieces have been rearranged for 7 course lute - this is quite handy for players who have a 7 or 8 course instrument as it avoids the need to retune. It's not entirely unauthentic as it is recorded that 7 course lutes were known in the early 16th century. But the original music was not notated that way - both in Dalza Capirola the pieces with the 6th course detuned by a tone are written on a 6 line stave for 6 course lute. The same applies for the Dalza pieces that also have the 5th course lowered by a tone. All you have to do is retune the relevant basses and play as if the instrument was tuned normally. Where these pieces have been re-written for a 7 course lute it is assumed that the 7th course is tuned a tone below the 6th. The notes on the de-tuned 6th course in the original are omitted and replaced by the open 7th. There is one other point to watch out for in the Lyre Music edition I have referred to above - the famous Padoana belissima (Alla Venetiana) by Capirola has in the original a section using the technique of splitting (i.e. dividing) the third course into its two component strings and playing different notes on them. This completely defeats modern tab programmes and the relevent sections in the edition have been rewritten in an attempt to bypass the problem. However, I think that it's a shame to lose this technical feature from the piece - it's not hard to play and draws a unique sound from the lute. To see the original you need the SPES Facsimile of the Capirola manuscript or the 1955 Otto Gombosi edition of it. If you really like Dalza there's no better way to get to know the music than to get a copy of the original, the Intabulatura de lauto Libro Quarto published by Petrucci in Venice, 1508. There are quite a few typographical errors in the print to watch out for but lots of very enjoyable music. I think the facsimile published by Minkoff is currently in print. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 10:24 PM Subject: Re: Mudarra's bordon Dear Michael, Dalza uses a tuning where both the fifth and sixth courses are tuned a tone lower than normal - see folio 27v of his book where the instructions are included at the beginning of the piece. Best wishes, Denys Thanks Denys, I only have a few Xeroxed copies of some Dalsa. Which book would you recommend? I have three editions by Dick Hoban which are great, and was considering ordering the Italian dance music, which I'm sure has lots of Dalsa. However, I still don't understand the notation I guess. The a below the 6th course would normally indicate an open 7th course but this means to tune the 6th course down a step?. Why would there be 2 different open a one for the 6th and one to indicate the tuning? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 1:18 PM Subject: Re: Mudarra's bordon Dear Michael, Dalza uses a tuning where both the fifth and sixth courses are tuned a tone lower than normal - see
Re: Strad's templates
There is a book showing all of Stradivari's moulds, and templates, and also his tools. When I was there, all they had left, were versions in Italian, for 20 Euros. http://www.comune.cremona.it/doc_comu/mus/mus_stradivar.html Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Leonard Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Strad's templates Interesting (and efficient) that the template for the neck is incorporated into the pattern for the soundboard. Leonard Williams On 5/28/05 6:51 AM, Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If anyone is interested I've just uploade the best scans I can do of rather badly printed not very special photos of the two paper templates to:- http://perso.wanadoo.fr/tony.c/fretful/Strad389.JPG and http://perso.wanadoo.fr/tony.c/fretful/Strad390.JPG For info - 389 - length 488 mm, width at widest point 288 mm., fingerboard 311x114x90 (mm) Writing = Musure per il manico del liuto al francesa vera de dudece ordine doppio 390 - length 487 by 280, neckblock 52 by 105, soundhole diameter 63. Writing = Forma per far il liuto alla Francese e il corpo dai alto due onze e mezza per la formatura delle corde dai de dudice ordine doppio e da li setti basse con li ottave e ancora se fano de dudice ordine de Corde and Scandello quando dai de 12 ordini le corde - Original Message - From: Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 8:05 PM Subject: RE: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Hi Michael, Going back to your initial posting about lute symmetry. In the Stradivari workshop on your recent trip to Italy, you saw a paper template for a lute body, folded along the centre-line. I conjectured that such a template would indicate that the Strad's lute-bodies were not made over a mold. The template would be used to show whether the inner-profile of the lute body is symmetrical. That every rib has the same curve and distance from the centre-line. Did Stradivari use a mold? Were all his lutes symmetrical (equal depth and width from centre-line)? Surely these points still need to be clarified? The thread seems to have gone off on a tangent into symmetry found in nature and quantum physics...completely off-topic! But then again, no-one's perfect! Best Wishes Ron (UK) -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 27 May 2005 15:23 To: Jon Murphy; guy_and_liz Smith; LUTELIST; Manolo Laguillo Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect A friend of mine who works at Sandia Labs tried to explain Quantum Physics to me over a couple bottles of wine one evening, unfortunately if I can't apply it in my daily life, it goes in one ear, and out the other. Concerning perfection, I guess it's a state of mind, as Dr. Emoto has documented, ones thoughts can have an influence on ones environment. Although, the Ancients have know this for eons. One can perceive a lute as symmetrical, however, after a couple bottles of wine, or beer in Jon's case, it begins to take on a non symmetrical shape, along with everything else. The exception to this rule, is found in historical lutes, which appear non symmetrical, prior to the consumption of your favorite intoxicant, then afterwards actually appears perfectly symmetrical. Concerning the lute I was speaking more about the physical shape of the belly, and not the actual sound it makes. You can apply the concept of imperfection ( Wabe Sabe) to many things, but not the conception of musical instruments. The concept is always perfect, but man's execution of it is imperfect. Sometimes I think lutes, guitars are like people. The really good looking ones (people) are rather shallow sounding, and the not so perfect ones, are more interesting to listen to. This is my second, naturally occurring law as applied to musical instruments. The first being the rule of relative perception. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: guy_and_liz Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:13 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Michael, I thought I'd covered my views on this topic, but I have to add my comment. Is it wrong for humans to try to achieve perfect symmetry? It seems nature is trying. Nature is trying, very trying (I hope you know that English trope). Can we know perfection? No. Can we aspire to it? Yes. Perfection is a goal, even in nature. Einstein rejected Bohr's thoughts on Quanta
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Vance said The point here is that the use of asymmetry was to create the illusion of symmetry. Why would anyone want the illusion of symmetry, when one can have the real thing? Stradivari obviously thought very highly of symmetry, since all of his moulds are symmetrical. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect After reading Mr. Lundbergs book several times I have come to the conclusion that he must be correct. He claims to have examined actual instruments that all show the same asymmetry, the neck cocked toward the base side of the Lute. He goes on to explain that the body does indeed have a center line, and the neck does indeed have a center line, but the juxtaposition of both elements does not extend the two center lines so that they become one common center line. Can anyone site an historical instrument where a common center line is obvious? I realize the argument can be made that the instruments have become warped and twisted over time but knowing wood as I do, if that were so, there would be evidence in a dramatic distortion of both the treble and base sides of the bowel. The base side would show evidence of compression causing an obvious kink near the joint of the neck and bowel. The treble side would show evidence of separation at the same point understanding that wood this old cannot be stretched, it only cracks and separates. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 3:15 PM Subject: RE: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hi Michael, Going back to your initial posting about lute symmetry. In the Stradivari workshop on your recent trip to Italy, you saw a paper template for a lute body, folded along the centre-line. Is it clear how this template was used? I can see many possibiltys, including the possiblity of other templates now missing. Perhaps this was part of a study, and represents another makers work; are there any strad-made lutes surviving to compare this template to? Sorry, i suppose lots of this has been discussed already, I have been skipping lots of email the past few weeks, too much apparant flaming, not enough time to indulge in reading, let alone responding. -- dana emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Mudarra's bordon
Plenty of examples, the earliest being several piece in the Capirola lute book. Kenneth Be Glad this question came up, as I'm confused about this. I can see in for instance in Padonana by Capriola is pretty straight forward, but what about a Pavana alla Ferrarese by Dalsa, that indicates tuning the 6th course down a step yet at the same time shows an open a'' on the 6th courses as well? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 7:36 AM Subject: Re: Mudarra's bordon In a message dated 5/27/2005 7:10:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't know whether any 16th century lute music involves tuning the 6th course down a tone. Perhaps someone on the list can tell us. Plenty of examples, the earliest being several piece in the Capirola lute book. Kenneth Be -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
I haven't been taking in a lot of this stuff, but looking at the plans, any asymmetry in the body/soundboard shape looks fairly minor, From my experience the discrepancy is more than minor, enough so, that it has made me wonder. Then again, some lutes seem to be very symmetrical. Anyway, isn't this lute builder list material? It seems most of the interest in this topic has come from non lute makers. Besides, it seems to be more metaphysical than practible. I think most any lute players would be somewhat interested in the thought behind it all. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 12:25 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect I haven't been taking in a lot of this stuff, but looking at the plans, any assymettry in the body/soundboard shape looks fairly minor, and the question really arises with the neck. Isn't this simply a question of the number of strings, as with the theorbo? The 'ribbon' (for want of a better word) appears to be correctly placed over the body only when the neck is skewiff, because some of the strings don't go over the fingerboard. Anyway, isn't this lute builder list material? I'm sure I had a couple of responses from Martin and David (Shepherd and Edwards respectively) when I first decided to have a go at a theorbo. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 6:44 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Vance said The point here is that the use of asymmetry was to create the illusion of symmetry. Why would anyone want the illusion of symmetry, when one can have the real thing? Stradivari obviously thought very highly of symmetry, since all of his moulds are symmetrical. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect After reading Mr. Lundbergs book several times I have come to the conclusion that he must be correct. He claims to have examined actual instruments that all show the same asymmetry, the neck cocked toward the base side of the Lute. He goes on to explain that the body does indeed have a center line, and the neck does indeed have a center line, but the juxtaposition of both elements does not extend the two center lines so that they become one common center line. Can anyone site an historical instrument where a common center line is obvious? I realize the argument can be made that the instruments have become warped and twisted over time but knowing wood as I do, if that were so, there would be evidence in a dramatic distortion of both the treble and base sides of the bowel. The base side would show evidence of compression causing an obvious kink near the joint of the neck and bowel. The treble side would show evidence of separation at the same point understanding that wood this old cannot be stretched, it only cracks and separates. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 3:15 PM Subject: RE: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hi Michael, Going back to your initial posting about lute symmetry. In the Stradivari workshop on your recent trip to Italy, you saw a paper template for a lute body, folded along the centre-line. Is it clear how this template was used? I can see many possibiltys, including the possiblity of other templates now missing. Perhaps this was part of a study, and represents another makers work; are there any strad-made lutes surviving to compare this template to? Sorry, i suppose lots of this has been discussed already, I have been skipping lots of email the past few weeks, too much apparant flaming, not enough time to indulge in reading, let alone responding. -- dana emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Mudarra's bordon
Dear Michael, Dalza uses a tuning where both the fifth and sixth courses are tuned a tone lower than normal - see folio 27v of his book where the instructions are included at the beginning of the piece. Best wishes, Denys Thanks Denys, I only have a few Xeroxed copies of some Dalsa. Which book would you recommend? I have three editions by Dick Hoban which are great, and was considering ordering the Italian dance music, which I'm sure has lots of Dalsa. However, I still don't understand the notation I guess. The a below the 6th course would normally indicate an open 7th course but this means to tune the 6th course down a step?. Why would there be 2 different open a one for the 6th and one to indicate the tuning? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 1:18 PM Subject: Re: Mudarra's bordon Dear Michael, Dalza uses a tuning where both the fifth and sixth courses are tuned a tone lower than normal - see folio 27v of his book where the instructions are included at the beginning of the piece. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 5:55 PM Subject: Re: Mudarra's bordon Plenty of examples, the earliest being several piece in the Capirola lute book. Kenneth Be Glad this question came up, as I'm confused about this. I can see in for instance in Padonana by Capriola is pretty straight forward, but what about a Pavana alla Ferrarese by Dalsa, that indicates tuning the 6th course down a step yet at the same time shows an open a'' on the 6th courses as well? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 7:36 AM Subject: Re: Mudarra's bordon In a message dated 5/27/2005 7:10:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't know whether any 16th century lute music involves tuning the 6th course down a tone. Perhaps someone on the list can tell us. Plenty of examples, the earliest being several piece in the Capirola lute book. Kenneth Be -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Strad's templates
One interesting detail on the template is the location of the rose which is off centre, leaning more to the bass side. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 4:51 AM Subject: Strad's templates If anyone is interested I've just uploade the best scans I can do of rather badly printed not very special photos of the two paper templates to:- http://perso.wanadoo.fr/tony.c/fretful/Strad389.JPG and http://perso.wanadoo.fr/tony.c/fretful/Strad390.JPG For info - 389 - length 488 mm, width at widest point 288 mm., fingerboard 311x114x90 (mm) Writing = Musure per il manico del liuto al francesa vera de dudece ordine doppio 390 - length 487 by 280, neckblock 52 by 105, soundhole diameter 63. Writing = Forma per far il liuto alla Francese e il corpo dai alto due onze e mezza per la formatura delle corde dai de dudice ordine doppio e da li setti basse con li ottave e ancora se fano de dudice ordine de Corde and Scandello quando dai de 12 ordini le corde - Original Message - From: Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 8:05 PM Subject: RE: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Hi Michael, Going back to your initial posting about lute symmetry. In the Stradivari workshop on your recent trip to Italy, you saw a paper template for a lute body, folded along the centre-line. I conjectured that such a template would indicate that the Strad's lute-bodies were not made over a mold. The template would be used to show whether the inner-profile of the lute body is symmetrical. That every rib has the same curve and distance from the centre-line. Did Stradivari use a mold? Were all his lutes symmetrical (equal depth and width from centre-line)? Surely these points still need to be clarified? The thread seems to have gone off on a tangent into symmetry found in nature and quantum physics...completely off-topic! But then again, no-one's perfect! Best Wishes Ron (UK) -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 27 May 2005 15:23 To: Jon Murphy; guy_and_liz Smith; LUTELIST; Manolo Laguillo Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect A friend of mine who works at Sandia Labs tried to explain Quantum Physics to me over a couple bottles of wine one evening, unfortunately if I can't apply it in my daily life, it goes in one ear, and out the other. Concerning perfection, I guess it's a state of mind, as Dr. Emoto has documented, ones thoughts can have an influence on ones environment. Although, the Ancients have know this for eons. One can perceive a lute as symmetrical, however, after a couple bottles of wine, or beer in Jon's case, it begins to take on a non symmetrical shape, along with everything else. The exception to this rule, is found in historical lutes, which appear non symmetrical, prior to the consumption of your favorite intoxicant, then afterwards actually appears perfectly symmetrical. Concerning the lute I was speaking more about the physical shape of the belly, and not the actual sound it makes. You can apply the concept of imperfection ( Wabe Sabe) to many things, but not the conception of musical instruments. The concept is always perfect, but man's execution of it is imperfect. Sometimes I think lutes, guitars are like people. The really good looking ones (people) are rather shallow sounding, and the not so perfect ones, are more interesting to listen to. This is my second, naturally occurring law as applied to musical instruments. The first being the rule of relative perception. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: guy_and_liz Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:13 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Michael, I thought I'd covered my views on this topic, but I have to add my comment. Is it wrong for humans to try to achieve perfect symmetry? It seems nature is trying. Nature is trying, very trying (I hope you know that English trope). Can we know perfection? No. Can we aspire to it? Yes. Perfection is a goal, even in nature. Einstein rejected Bohr's thoughts on Quanta, saying God doesn't play dice. (the quote may be aprochryphal). Bringing it back to the lute, your ear is the best tuning device. Even the paired courses have a diffence in tonality. Nothing is perfect, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to perfection. Best, Jon
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
A friend of mine who works at Sandia Labs tried to explain Quantum Physics to me over a couple bottles of wine one evening, unfortunately if I can't apply it in my daily life, it goes in one ear, and out the other. Concerning perfection, I guess it's a state of mind, as Dr. Emoto has documented, ones thoughts can have an influence on ones environment. Although, the Ancients have know this for eons. One can perceive a lute as symmetrical, however, after a couple bottles of wine, or beer in Jon's case, it begins to take on a non symmetrical shape, along with everything else. The exception to this rule, is found in historical lutes, which appear non symmetrical, prior to the consumption of your favorite intoxicant, then afterwards actually appears perfectly symmetrical. Concerning the lute I was speaking more about the physical shape of the belly, and not the actual sound it makes. You can apply the concept of imperfection ( Wabe Sabe) to many things, but not the conception of musical instruments. The concept is always perfect, but man's execution of it is imperfect. Sometimes I think lutes, guitars are like people. The really good looking ones (people) are rather shallow sounding, and the not so perfect ones, are more interesting to listen to. This is my second, naturally occurring law as applied to musical instruments. The first being the rule of relative perception. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: guy_and_liz Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:13 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Michael, I thought I'd covered my views on this topic, but I have to add my comment. Is it wrong for humans to try to achieve perfect symmetry? It seems nature is trying. Nature is trying, very trying (I hope you know that English trope). Can we know perfection? No. Can we aspire to it? Yes. Perfection is a goal, even in nature. Einstein rejected Bohr's thoughts on Quanta, saying God doesn't play dice. (the quote may be aprochryphal). Bringing it back to the lute, your ear is the best tuning device. Even the paired courses have a diffence in tonality. Nothing is perfect, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to perfection. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Hi Ron, I don't know if strad used a mould. I was unaware he even made lutes until visiting the museum. However, judging from the template of folded paper, I think it was simply used to trace the pattern onto a belly. The same folded paper templates can be seen of his violins, guitars, and other instruments. However many violin moulds of his exist, so the existence of a template doesn't negate the use of a mould, a least for his violins. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 12:05 PM Subject: RE: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Hi Michael, Going back to your initial posting about lute symmetry. In the Stradivari workshop on your recent trip to Italy, you saw a paper template for a lute body, folded along the centre-line. I conjectured that such a template would indicate that the Strad's lute-bodies were not made over a mold. The template would be used to show whether the inner-profile of the lute body is symmetrical. That every rib has the same curve and distance from the centre-line. Did Stradivari use a mold? Were all his lutes symmetrical (equal depth and width from centre-line)? Surely these points still need to be clarified? The thread seems to have gone off on a tangent into symmetry found in nature and quantum physics...completely off-topic! But then again, no-one's perfect! Best Wishes Ron (UK) -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 27 May 2005 15:23 To: Jon Murphy; guy_and_liz Smith; LUTELIST; Manolo Laguillo Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect A friend of mine who works at Sandia Labs tried to explain Quantum Physics to me over a couple bottles of wine one evening, unfortunately if I can't apply it in my daily life, it goes in one ear, and out the other. Concerning perfection, I guess it's a state of mind, as Dr. Emoto has documented, ones thoughts can have an influence on ones environment. Although, the Ancients have know this for eons. One can perceive a lute as symmetrical, however, after a couple bottles of wine, or beer in Jon's case, it begins to take on a non symmetrical shape, along with everything else. The exception to this rule, is found in historical lutes, which appear non symmetrical, prior to the consumption of your favorite intoxicant, then afterwards actually appears perfectly symmetrical. Concerning the lute I was speaking more about the physical shape of the belly, and not the actual sound it makes. You can apply the concept of imperfection ( Wabe Sabe) to many things, but not the conception of musical instruments. The concept is always perfect, but man's execution of it is imperfect. Sometimes I think lutes, guitars are like people. The really good looking ones (people) are rather shallow sounding, and the not so perfect ones, are more interesting to listen to. This is my second, naturally occurring law as applied to musical instruments. The first being the rule of relative perception. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: guy_and_liz Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:13 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Michael, I thought I'd covered my views on this topic, but I have to add my comment. Is it wrong for humans to try to achieve perfect symmetry? It seems nature is trying. Nature is trying, very trying (I hope you know that English trope). Can we know perfection? No. Can we aspire to it? Yes. Perfection is a goal, even in nature. Einstein rejected Bohr's thoughts on Quanta, saying God doesn't play dice. (the quote may be aprochryphal). Bringing it back to the lute, your ear is the best tuning device. Even the paired courses have a diffence in tonality. Nothing is perfect, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to perfection. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
The more highly developed we become, the more pronounced these differences are. The more your personality develops the less symmetrical your facial expressions are. So in nature, symmetry is a starting point, not a goal. I recall seeing a show on the science channel about human sexuality. They found most people were attracted to symmetrical facial features in the opposite sex. Non Symmetry happens as you age. Some might call that a degeneration, rather than, highly developed. So, I wonder about the Stradivarius template... could it have also been a starting point? An attempt to revitalize the lute by taking it back to an earlier time? I think one must think of the body separate from the neck of a baroque lute. The Strad template says on it . Forma di paletta per liutio alla francese That's about all I can make out. It's an 11 course lute, looks allot like Frei or Mahler. I've come to think, after all this, that lutemakers of the past, strived for symmetry in the conception of their lutes ( in the belly shape ) but some didn't quite pull it off, and some just didn't care. Some might have used a mould that warped after they made it, 20 years before. Who knows! The Strad template at least for me, has cleared up all my doubts about the symmetrically challenged makers of the past. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Carl Donsbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:54 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect A dancer I was once acquainted with used to expound on what he called the myth of radial symmetry in regard to the human body. The body *looks* symmetrical, but inside, most of the vital organs are on one side or the other. And if you take function into account, almost nothing is symmetrical. The right and left hands work differently, and we are all either right or left handed, footed, eyed and eared. The right and left halves of the brain work differently. The more highly developed we become, the more pronounced these differences are. The more your personality develops the less symmetrical your facial expressions are. So in nature, symmetry is a starting point, not a goal. And so it is, I think with musical instruments. The more they develop, the more suited to function they become, the less symmetrical they are. If you started with the simplest wind instrument you'd have a tube with a straight line of holes, and the first thing you'd want to do to make it more functional would be to stagger the holes to conform to the hand to make it easier to play. By the time you get to the modern transverse flute, symmetricality is long gone. The lute started out fairly symmetrical in the mediaeval period, like the oud, but as time went on, inner bracing got changed around, the neck cocked to one side, bass riders and such were added... the highly developed instruments that Weiss would have played were nothing like symmetrical. So, I wonder about the Stradivarius template... could it have also been a starting point? An attempt to revitalize the lute by taking it back to an earlier time? - Carl Donsbach To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
When it comes to the physical construction of musical instrument, high symmetry means something relatively boring and the lowest symmetry possible is necessary to construct an instrument, such as a lute, that is designed to emphasize the different roles of the left and right hands, respectively Marion, I think it might be wise to get back to the issue at hand, as it applies to the construction and conception of musical instruments. Manolo, said symmetry is a cheap trick, uninteresting yet, symmetry is used in, the lute, guitar, and violin templates of Stradivari, and Arnault De Zwolle's work containing a drawing of a lute, with an accompanying description of the method used to draw it. It includes the whole body of geometry and principles of proportionality which would be used to develop all new instruments created during the Renaissance, including the violin. I was delighted to finally see a lute body, which was symmetrical. I know of some lutemakers who copy every defect of proportion. The problem with this is, it ends up compounding the defect, and as a result and new lute is twice as distorted as the original. I have already made a mould for the Yale Jauch using symmetry and it looks very pleasing. The challenge will be to actually translate the final outcome of construction, in which case Manolo will be pleased to know, it probably won't be perfectly symmetrical. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; guy_and_liz Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:55 AM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Perfect symmetry is a term that is too vague to use in scientific descriptions. I don't know what it means unless it refers to the sphere, which allows all possible symmetry operations. It's not that highly symmetric objects don't exist in nature, nor does it have anything to do with the second law of thermodynamics on a molecular level. Perfect symmetry as it relates to building lutes and other stringed instruments could be defined as belonging to the C1 point group (which is to say that the instrument is asymmetrical). To find higher symmetry, it is necessary to look at simpler instruments, such as a hand bell, which has C-infinty-v symmetry. When it comes to the physical construction of musical instrument, high symmetry means something relatively boring and the lowest symmetry possible is necessary to construct an instrument, such as a lute, that is designed to emphasize the different roles of the left and right hands, respectively. -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: May 24, 2005 8:57 AM To: guy_and_liz Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Crystals are only symmetrical to a point. It's a convenient and reasonably good approximation, but perfect symmetry runs afoul of the second law of thermodynamics, leading to things like point defects and dislocations OK, so I'm getting the idea that perfect symmetry does not exist in nature, such a piety. However, has anyone read the book by Dr. Masaru Emoto, The hidden Messages in Water. Dr. Emoto, has found and photographed the formation of water crystals. Polluted water, or water subjected to negative thoughts, forms incomplete, asymmetrical patterns, with dull colors, and water from clear springs, exposed to positive thoughts forms brilliant complex, symmetrical, and colorful snowflake patterns. In Buddhist, and Hindu art, one finds perfect symmetry in the form of mandalas, which represent perfect Enlightenment. Is it wrong for humans to try to achieve perfect symmetry? It seems nature is trying. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: guy_and_liz Smith To: LUTELIST ; Manolo Laguillo ; Michael Thames Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 8:44 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Crystals are only symmetrical to a point. It's a convenient and reasonably good approximation, but perfect symmetry runs afoul of the second law of thermodynamics, leading to things like point defects and dislocations. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames To: LUTELIST ; Manolo Laguillo Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:34 AM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect b. Symmetry is one of the least interesting forms of composition. It is a cheap trick, and it is wise to avoid it. BTW, the nazi architects (Albert Speer...) used it a lot Interesting to note, the best lutemakers of the ren. were Germans. Actually symmetry does not exist in nature, but something much more exciting: the appearance of it, without really being it I'm not sure
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
...and bridges (especially those that predate saddles), (in most cases) internal bracing, string positioning in relation to the soundbox (especially if neck extensions and extra pegboxes/riders are involved), etc. All things considered, the profile of the soundboard/soundbox can strive to emulate a single plane of symmetry, but that's usually where it ends. Eugene Sorry if I wasn't clear, but having been refering to only the body of the lute in this discussion, as Stad's template is only of the belly. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:43 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect At 02:24 PM 5/24/2005, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: ++Yes, you are right when applied to the lute body which can have a plane of symmetry, this part can in theory be completely symmetrical with respect to that plane. It is the nut and peg box that break the symmetrical pattern... ...and bridges (especially those that predate saddles), (in most cases) internal bracing, string positioning in relation to the soundbox (especially if neck extensions and extra pegboxes/riders are involved), etc. All things considered, the profile of the soundboard/soundbox can strive to emulate a single plane of symmetry, but that's usually where it ends. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
++Yes, this is a nice design, but too large for me. I assume you mean symmetry with respect to the plane of reflection perpendicular to the top. What would be the harm in making the right side the mirror image of the left? Is there some advantage to an asymmetrical body? Marion, actually the Jauch is relatively small with a string length of 70.1 cm. That's exactly what I did, mirror the two sides, so from the perspective of a centre line, the two sides are the same exact shape. This is what I have been referring to, calling it perfect symmetry, but as I have seen, maybe this is not the correct way to describe it. Personally I can see know acoustical advantage to an asymmetrical shape. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:24 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: May 24, 2005 11:09 AM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], guy_and_liz Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect When it comes to the physical construction of musical instrument, high symmetry means something relatively boring and the lowest symmetry possible is necessary to construct an instrument, such as a lute, that is designed to emphasize the different roles of the left and right hands, respectively Marion, I think it might be wise to get back to the issue at hand, as it applies to the construction and conception of musical instruments. Manolo, said symmetry is a cheap trick, uninteresting yet, symmetry is used in, the lute, guitar, and violin templates of Stradivari, and Arnault De Zwolle's work containing a drawing of a lute, with an accompanying description of the method used to draw it. It includes the whole body of geometry and principles of proportionality which would be used to develop all new instruments created during the Renaissance, including the violin. I was delighted to finally see a lute body, which was symmetrical. ++Yes, you are right when applied to the lute body which can have a plane of symmetry, this part can in theory be completely symmetrical with respect to that plane. It is the nut and peg box that break the symmetrical pattern. Taken by itself the body can be be symmetrical. I know of some lutemakers who copy every defect of proportion. The problem with this is, it ends up compounding the defect, and as a result and new lute is twice as distorted as the original. ++Hence the importance of seeing the original plans which the museum in Cremona has preserved. I have already made a mould for the Yale Jauch using symmetry and it looks very pleasing. The challenge will be to actually translate the final outcome of construction, in which case Manolo will be pleased to know, it probably won't be perfectly symmetrical. ++Yes, this is a nice design, but too large for me. I assume you mean symmetry with respect to the plane of reflection perpendicular to the top. What would be the harm in making the right side the mirror image of the left? Is there some advantage to an asymmetrical body? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; guy_and_liz Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:55 AM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Perfect symmetry is a term that is too vague to use in scientific descriptions. I don't know what it means unless it refers to the sphere, which allows all possible symmetry operations. It's not that highly symmetric objects don't exist in nature, nor does it have anything to do with the second law of thermodynamics on a molecular level. Perfect symmetry as it relates to building lutes and other stringed instruments could be defined as belonging to the C1 point group (which is to say that the instrument is asymmetrical). To find higher symmetry, it is necessary to look at simpler instruments, such as a hand bell, which has C-infinty-v symmetry. When it comes to the physical construction of musical instrument, high symmetry means something relatively boring and the lowest symmetry possible is necessary to construct an instrument, such as a lute, that is designed to emphasize the different roles of the left and right hands, respectively. -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: May 24, 2005 8:57 AM To: guy_and_liz Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Crystals are only symmetrical to a point. It's
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
can reflect the difference in tension between treble and bass. But what if you apply the symmetry question to only the body and the top without taking into account the internal structure and bridge? Then is there a reason for asymmetry? The bridges on all lutes are asymmetrical, that is to say, thicker and higher on the bass side. The bracing is always asymmetrical, the exception being swanneck lutes which have a symmetrical fan bracing. Relatively speaking of course. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:01 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect That is right! (Eugene always knows!!) Any asymmetry at the nut must be reflected in a similar asymmetry at the bridge, with or without a saddle. However, before the bridge is installed also inside the body, the bracing can reflect the difference in tension between trebble and bass. But what if you apply the symmetry question to only the body and the top without taking into account the internal structure and bridge? Then is there a reason for asymmetry? -Original Message- From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: May 24, 2005 11:43 AM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect At 02:24 PM 5/24/2005, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote: ++Yes, you are right when applied to the lute body which can have a plane of symmetry, this part can in theory be completely symmetrical with respect to that plane. It is the nut and peg box that break the symmetrical pattern... ..and bridges (especially those that predate saddles), (in most cases) internal bracing, string positioning in relation to the soundbox (especially if neck extensions and extra pegboxes/riders are involved), etc. All things considered, the profile of the soundboard/soundbox can strive to emulate a single plane of symmetry, but that's usually where it ends. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
I think that we all try to mirror the left and right (unless there is a good reason not to) - I'm talking of outline, not barring, bridge, etc., but for some reaon, the wood doesn't always share our aims. Moreover, the templates I have been taught to use are _always_ half the shape, to avoid an accumulation of error. If that is too concise, I can use more words, but not at the moment. I've not run across any plans of historical lutes that one side mirrors the other side. Unless you want to copy exactly the original lute, it seems one must in some way reconstruct the original plans. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:10 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Dear Marion et al., - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:24 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect with respect to the plane of reflection perpendicular to the top. What would be the harm in making the right side the mirror image of the left? Is there some advantage to an asymmetrical body? I think that we all try to mirror the left and right (unless there is a good reason not to) - I'm talking of outline, not barring, bridge, etc., but for some reaon, the wood doesn't always share our aims. Moreover, the templates I have been taught to use are _always_ half the shape, to avoid an accumulation of error. If that is too concise, I can use more words, but not at the moment. Tony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Geometrical drawing of the whole front leads to template for one half, by definition reversible, based on the centre line/joint of the front... Only in a perfect world If one locates the center line using plans from historical lutes, making a template from one side, then flipping it over, the other side will not be the same as the template. This has been the whole point of this discussion, most lutes are not symmetrical. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:57 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Geometrical drawing of the whole front leads to template for one half, by definition reversible, based on the centre line/joint of the front... - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 9:31 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect I think that we all try to mirror the left and right (unless there is a good reason not to) - I'm talking of outline, not barring, bridge, etc., but for some reaon, the wood doesn't always share our aims. Moreover, the templates I have been taught to use are _always_ half the shape, to avoid an accumulation of error. If that is too concise, I can use more words, but not at the moment. I've not run across any plans of historical lutes that one side mirrors the other side. Unless you want to copy exactly the original lute, it seems one must in some way reconstruct the original plans. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:10 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Dear Marion et al., - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:24 PM Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect with respect to the plane of reflection perpendicular to the top. What would be the harm in making the right side the mirror image of the left? Is there some advantage to an asymmetrical body? I think that we all try to mirror the left and right (unless there is a good reason not to) - I'm talking of outline, not barring, bridge, etc., but for some reaon, the wood doesn't always share our aims. Moreover, the templates I have been taught to use are _always_ half the shape, to avoid an accumulation of error. If that is too concise, I can use more words, but not at the moment. Tony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
Lundberg did not say that lute bellies weren't symmetrical, just that the lute as a whole doesn't have a clear center line. Without getting lundbergs book out, he says something to the effect that there isn't a straight line on the lute except the strings. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I prefer to think in terms that the lute has a center line and the neck is tilted. From my experience with the few different lutes I've made, the originals are not perfectly symmetrical. For many reasons age, stress etc. poor workmanship. For this reason alone, coming across Stadivari's template, and seeing first hand that lutes were conceived from the beginning to be perfectly symmetrical cleared up at least for me some of the mystery. I know many makers will copy a lute with every distortion, and imperfection, it seems for me that this might not be the way to do it. I wonder if these early makers had some mind set to stop just short of perfection? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Garry Bryan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 5:54 AM Subject: RE: Stradivari lute? -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:55 AM To: Lute net Subject: Stradivari lute? I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made from thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line, indicating to me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically prefect, and do in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg says. [GB] Lundberg did not say that lute bellies weren't symmetrical, just that the lute as a whole doesn't have a clear center line. If you'll look at page 76 ( Practicum One: Making the Form ) in Historical Lute Construction, you'll notice that Lundberg's instructions coincide with what you describe above. I'm sure that Martin Shepherd (first name out of the brain this morning.) or someone else can probably give a concise description of the asymmetry of the lute. It's too early for me; I need more coffee :) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
Eugene, Sorry I mis read the link to the NMM, in SD, as saying there was a Stadivari guitar in Cremona. Must have been the jet lag, last night. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: EUGENE BRAIG IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 3:03 AM Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, May 23, 2005 0:20 am Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? That's news to me, that there are 2 surviving guitars by Stradivari. I know of the well known one with the longer than usual string length. Clocking a whopping 74 cm scale, that one is the Hill guitar in the Ashmolean, England. The other is the Rawlins guitar of a more manageable ca. 64 cm scale, again in the National Music Museum, SD. http://www.usd.edu/smm/rawlins5.html Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute? now: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Manolo, Yes, thanks for the ideas, and I would love to read the book by Lewis Munford, and will order it today. However, I do differ with you on the workmanship aspect. For instance, I've noticed in lutes that I've personally examined, having a bugle where the spine goes into the end clasp, maybe not too clear. Many lutemakers I've spoken with including Paul Thompson can't see why anyone would make a new lute like this. Also, the Yale Jauch is very much distorted beyond any reasonable artistic expression, and the belly shape needs to be reconstructed, to be acceptable, in this case you can't blame tension and humidity, only the workman ship The other point being, lutes have most likely distorted over the centuries so the actual shape may not be what we think it is. The symmetrical templates of Stradivari at least, gives us a clue, as to where they were starting from. It is almost impossible to make a perfectly symmetrical anything, lute, guitar etc. they will all differ slightly no matter how hard one tries to achieve perfect symmetry. However one has to start somewhere. In the japanese aesthetic there is a word I can't remember now for this idea of being perfect precisely through imperfection I believe the term for it is Wabe Sabe. The American Indians leave out threads in their woven rugs to make them imperfect and hence, satisfy the evil sprits. I've long suspected that the lutemakers of the past had a similar idea, the imperfection of man, but that can be achieved simply by trying to be perfect. That being said, there are some lutes that appear to be very symmetrical, as well. All the best, Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Manolo Laguillo To: Michael Thames ; LUTELIST Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 9:38 AM Subject: was: Stradivari lute? now: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Sorry, but I can't agree with the two ideas expressed below by Michael Thames: 1. poor workmanship on the part of old lutemakers 2. symmetry equals to perfection, therefore asymmetry = imperfection. Because: a. They had a superior craftmanship level, and could have done the lutes perfectly symmetrical if they would have the desire and need to do so. We only have to look at the perfectly spherical stone balls present in so many buildings of the Renaissance. The sphere is, by the way, the representation of absolute symmetry... b. Symmetry is one of the least interesting forms of composition. It is a cheap trick, and it is wise to avoid it. BTW, the nazi architects (Albert Speer...) used it a lot. Actually symmetry does not exist in nature, but something much more exciting: the appearance of it, without really being it. In the japanese aesthetic there is a word I can't remember now for this idea of being perfect precisely through imperfection. All this relates with something of paramount importance in the interpretation of early music, that we all know, and that I am going to express with an example: if we have a measure with 4 /\ /\ , each one has to be played with a different accent, stressed differently. This is difficult for us because we were born in an epoch where everything is mechanic, and handmade objects are luxury... Remember William Morris? I will dare to recommend you a book, Michael, that you could enjoy a lot: Lewis Mumford, Technics and Civilization. Saludos, Manolo Laguillo Michael Thames wrote: Lundberg did not say that lute bellies weren't symmetrical, just that the lute as a whole doesn't have a clear center line. Without getting lundbergs book out, he says something to the effect that there isn't a straight line on the lute except the strings. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I prefer to think in terms that the lute has a center line and the neck is tilted. From my experience with the few different lutes I've made, the originals are not perfectly symmetrical. For many reasons age, stress etc. poor workmanship. For this reason alone, coming across Stadivari's template, and seeing first hand that lutes were conceived from the beginning to be perfectly symmetrical cleared up at least for me some of the mystery. I know many makers will copy a lute with every distortion, and imperfection, it seems for me that this might not be the way to do it. I wonder if these early makers had some mind set to stop just short of perfection? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Garry Bryan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 5:54 AM Subject: RE: Stradivari lute? -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:55 AM To: Lute net Subject: Stradivari lute? I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made from thick paper, folded
Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
b. Symmetry is one of the least interesting forms of composition. It is a cheap trick, and it is wise to avoid it. BTW, the nazi architects (Albert Speer...) used it a lot Interesting to note, the best lutemakers of the ren. were Germans. Actually symmetry does not exist in nature, but something much more exciting: the appearance of it, without really being it I'm not sure, but would venture to say, symmetry exists in ice crystal, and crystal formations? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 9:38 AM Subject: was: Stradivari lute? now: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect Sorry, but I can't agree with the two ideas expressed below by Michael Thames: 1. poor workmanship on the part of old lutemakers 2. symmetry equals to perfection, therefore asymmetry = imperfection. Because: a. They had a superior craftmanship level, and could have done the lutes perfectly symmetrical if they would have the desire and need to do so. We only have to look at the perfectly spherical stone balls present in so many buildings of the Renaissance. The sphere is, by the way, the representation of absolute symmetry... b. Symmetry is one of the least interesting forms of composition. It is a cheap trick, and it is wise to avoid it. BTW, the nazi architects (Albert Speer...) used it a lot. Actually symmetry does not exist in nature, but something much more exciting: the appearance of it, without really being it. In the japanese aesthetic there is a word I can't remember now for this idea of being perfect precisely through imperfection. All this relates with something of paramount importance in the interpretation of early music, that we all know, and that I am going to express with an example: if we have a measure with 4 /\ /\ , each one has to be played with a different accent, stressed differently. This is difficult for us because we were born in an epoch where everything is mechanic, and handmade objects are luxury... Remember William Morris? I will dare to recommend you a book, Michael, that you could enjoy a lot: Lewis Mumford, Technics and Civilization. Saludos, Manolo Laguillo Michael Thames wrote: Lundberg did not say that lute bellies weren't symmetrical, just that the lute as a whole doesn't have a clear center line. Without getting lundbergs book out, he says something to the effect that there isn't a straight line on the lute except the strings. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I prefer to think in terms that the lute has a center line and the neck is tilted. From my experience with the few different lutes I've made, the originals are not perfectly symmetrical. For many reasons age, stress etc. poor workmanship. For this reason alone, coming across Stadivari's template, and seeing first hand that lutes were conceived from the beginning to be perfectly symmetrical cleared up at least for me some of the mystery. I know many makers will copy a lute with every distortion, and imperfection, it seems for me that this might not be the way to do it. I wonder if these early makers had some mind set to stop just short of perfection? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Garry Bryan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 5:54 AM Subject: RE: Stradivari lute? -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:55 AM To: Lute net Subject: Stradivari lute? I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made from thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line, indicating to me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically prefect, and do in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg says. [GB] Lundberg did not say that lute bellies weren't symmetrical, just that the lute as a whole doesn't have a clear center line. If you'll look at page 76 ( Practicum One: Making the Form ) in Historical Lute Construction, you'll notice that Lundberg's instructions coincide with what you describe above. I'm sure that Martin Shepherd (first name out of the brain this morning.) or someone else can probably give a concise description of the asymmetry of the lute. It's too early for me; I need more coffee :) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: The List!
On Sat, 21 May 2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: Let me put it this way: I have never picked on the undeserving. RT seems to consider himself the God? Cute. Arto Arto, don't worry, he only dreams of being God. If he were God, he could perform the miracle of actually making a living through his divine art. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: Re: The List! On Sat, 21 May 2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: Let me put it this way: I have never picked on the undeserving. RT seems to consider himself the God? Cute. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
Stewart Pollens, the Musical Instruments Conservator at the Metropolitan Museum has written a large article on the subject, which by now should be submitted to LSA Editors in the expanded version of the previously published one. Nice try, Thames, but this is not a job for mickey-mouse-luthiers. RT I guess to you, Trovosky, Stadivari's paper is more sacred than an actual Jauch, Schelle, or Frei, that most competent luthiers have access to. I bet your favorite movie this year is Star Wars. Sorry to give you the impression, I wanted to write a thesis on the subject. Hope you can quit your daytime job, maybe in this lifetime, if not the next. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:33 AM Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? Whilst visiting the one of the most charming cities in Italia, Cremona, where Stradivari worked. I visited the museum that houses tools, and moulds etc. from his workshop, I was hoping some energy from the master would be absorbed into my DNA, my hopes were fulfilled. I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made from thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line, indicating to me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically prefect, and do in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg says. Has anyone had access to investigate these moulds of Stradivari ? There were also very clear string spacing templates for the bridge and nut, as well as pegbox and fingerboard templates. As well as 2 different guitar shapes, and many different peghead templates. Michael Thames Stewart Pollens, the Musical Instruments Conservator at the Metropolitan Museum has written a large article on the subject, which by now should be submitted to LSA Editors in the expanded version of the previously published one. Nice try, Thames, but this is not a job for mickey-mouse-luthiers. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
There are only two authenticated Stradivari mandolini and two authenticated guitars to have survived (along with a few leftover parts and some guitars of dubious attribution). That's news to me, that there are 2 surviving guitars by Stradivari. I know of the well known one with the longer than usual string length. At the Cremona Museum there was only a broken off neck of a guitar by Stradivari that I noticed. I'm sure I would have seen a guitar there if there was one. I hope I didn't over look it. There was also a template for a therobo, as well. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: EUGENE BRAIG IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:09 PM Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:13 pm Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? ++Yes, that is interesting. I also learned, while I was there, that Stradivari also made mandolins, although I have yet to see one in person. There are only two authenticated Stradivari mandolini and two authenticated guitars to have survived (along with a few leftover parts and some guitars of dubious attribution). One of the mandolins is in a private collection in England. The other, the Cutler-Challen mandolino choristo, is in the National Music Museum, South Dakota. http://www.usd.edu/smm/StradMandolin.html I have not seen either in person, but I have played Richard Walz's close reproduction of the Cutler-Challen Strad by Dan Larson. It is the finest piece of work I've seen by Dan, has a remarkable bass response, and a beautifully varnished, richly figured maple bowl. I'm guessing you already knew this, but just in case... Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
Marion, Yes, it was one of the highlights of the trip for my wife and I. There are also 4 Strads, and an Amati, as well as a Gesu, in a private room in the city hall, that we found out about by accident, not well known there. G.B. Ceruti any relation to you? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 7:13 PM Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? Hi Michael, ++Glad you enjoyed your trip. Whilst visiting the one of the most charming cities in Italia, Cremona, where Stradivari worked. I visited the museum that houses tools, and moulds etc. from his workshop, I was hoping some energy from the master would be absorbed into my DNA, my hopes were fulfilled. ++That is a wonderful museum which also has a violin by G.B. Ceruti, although not one of his best, to be sure. His best violins can be heard in various orchestras. Some concert masters have them, a fact that I discovered while singing with one. I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made from thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line, indicating to me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically prefect, and do in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg says. ++Yes, that is interesting. I also learned, while I was there, that Stradivari also made mandolins, although I have yet to see one in person. Cheers, Marion ++Mandolino napoletano+++ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: The List!
Thank you, Michael. I remind everyone of what Wayne has written on the site. No one is under any obligation to read the email of people who bother them. If I bother anyone, that person is most welcome to ignore my email. What goes around, comes around. If someone makes it a practice to insult others on a regular basis, that person should not be amazed when it comes around Marion , I notice Trovosky is fond of insulting those of us who can actually make a living with our art, or are in some way successful, in our field. Sounds like your talent has taken you all over the world. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 7:43 PM Subject: Re: The List! Thank you, Michael. I remind everyone of what Wayne has written on the site. No one is under any obligation to read the email of people who bother them. If I bother anyone, that person is most welcome to ignore my email. What goes around, comes around. If someone makes it a practice to insult others on a regular basis, that person should not be amazed when it comes around. My best wishes for your good health, Marion Mezzosoprano Mano di magia sul Mandolino milanese meraviglioso Are you trying to say that it is more permissible to insult RT than Marion I can't speak for Marion, but I would say it is not only permissible, but highly recommended. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
I'm gone to Italy
To the great delight of some, I gone to Italy for a month. Keep an eye on Dr. Jeckel and Mr. Hyde. All the best, Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
lost in NY
I don't know if anyone else has noticed, all these multiple personalities, Felix Krull, Gian luigi Chiaperalli, Saucheck, etc. I'm concerned, Roman might be off his medication again. Roman are you out there? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: lost in NY
Michael, The greatest literary personality of Portugal in the 20th century had many aliases and was mostly off his medication: check out some sites on Fernando Pessoa. Mickey is a breeder, not a reader Your multiple personality disorder is starting to project itself on to others, my name isn't Mickey, is it Felix? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alain Veylit [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 3:32 PM Subject: Re: lost in NY Michael, The greatest literary personality of Portugal in the 20th century had many aliases and was mostly off his medication: check out some sites on Fernando Pessoa. Mickey is a breeder, not a reader. Children play multiple personality games all the time, and they tend to be very creative in the process. All in all, medications have killed more people than literary and/or musical games. Roman, stay off drugs! Alain Am clean, except that Navarro-Correa red my wife and I had at Ariel Abramovich's instigation. Made me s**tfaced like a freshman. RT I don't know if anyone else has noticed, all these multiple personalities, Felix Krull, Gian luigi Chiaperalli, Saucheck, etc. I'm concerned, Roman might be off his medication again. Roman are you out there? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: Bass damping, was Re: Antwort avon ...
better tp keave such things from the list. Although I occassionally really enjoy discussing them - and to my shame - I have to admit that I participated on such discussions often on the lutelist. Best wishes Thomas Yes, sorry, but I could help myself. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:14 AM Subject: Antwort: Re: Bass damping, was Re: Antwort avon ... better tp keave such things from the list. Although I occassionally really enjoy discussing them - and to my shame - I have to admit that I participated on such discussions often on the lutelist. Best wishes Thomas Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 29.04.2005 06:54:01 An:Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED], Arne Keller [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kopie: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Thema: Re: Bass damping, was Re: Antwort avon ... One of the skills of the tyrant is to pervert innocent words into tirades of nationalism and prejudice. Best, Jon Hum. are you talking about words like Freedom, Terrorist, Level Red ? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Arne Keller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:31 PM Subject: Re: Bass damping, was Re: Antwort avon ... Without knowledge of the composer (Bruger) I can't decide whether Judenkoenig would apply to Jesus, Herod or the future Messiah. Or just perhaps to a local mythology. Die Erlenkoenig was real to some, myth to others. Words can be loaded with unintentional meaning - and the Nazis were specialists in exploiting that. I am reminded that Deutchland Uber Alles was a patriotic anthem reflecting a sense of personal love of nation that was corrupted into an expression of international conquest. One of the skills of the tyrant is to pervert innocent words into tirades of nationalism and predjudice. Best, Jon In the mid-1930es, Hans Dagobert Bruger, in the historical preface to his Lautenschule, has a hard time explaining the name Judenkuenig. AK To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: Antwort: Re: Bass damping, was Re: Antwort avon ...
.. as long as it does not result in clusters (small seconds doesn't sound good to my ears). You're right in as far as longer bass notes are concerned - but certain passages require to dampen the bass. Otherwise you are getting wrong harmonies Thomas Yes, however, might this be more the exception to the rule, rather than the rule, or a strict way of playing? In my mind, Weiss must have felt a certain something lacking in the bass register, namely, sustain, and dynamics, to have invented the swan neck lute. I have yet to hear, a gut bass sound that balances with the treble, another reason for Weiss's invention. Also, what's up with this idea, that people are playing with gut strings, that were anything like what they used in historical times? The strings used today won't fit in the bridge holes on historical 11 and 13 course lutes, and as a result sound way too dull and tubby in my mind. That being said, I do love the sound of gut, from the sixth course up! but defiantly not the basses of a 13 course lute. Also, as I've said before, there does seem to be some evidence pointing to the use of wound basses, on 13 course lutes. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:11 AM Subject: Antwort: Re: Bass damping, was Re: Antwort avon ... .. as long as it does not result in clusters (small seconds doesn't sound good to my ears). You're right in as far as longer bass notes are concerned - but certain passages require to dampen the bass. Otherwise you are getting wrong harmonies Thomas Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 29.04.2005 00:27:47 An:Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED], Daniel Shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED], Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kopie: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Thema: Re: Bass damping, was Re: Antwort avon ... For musical considerations, it is unfortunately necessary to dampen bass notes if using wound basses. But if one uses gut, it is not necessary. So, go with gut! It sounds great one does not have to fuss. Even with wound strings it is not that big an issue. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv At 08:31 AM 4/28/2005 -0400, Daniel Shoskes wrote: To my eye in the video, the bass notes are allowed to ring without damping. I was under the impression that the Basel school of playing was very strict with silencing bass notes at their exact value (unless using gut with quick decay). Is this something that most players here do always, never or only in specific circumstances (eg hit the 11th course right after the 12 course and going back to damp the 12th course)? Sorry if this is more appropriate for the Baroque list, but there do seem to be a lot of switch hitters here (note to non-Americans - this is a baseball term (with various other meanings)!). Another interesting thing I noticed, was Barto's technique, of repeating the same finger, on the same string. Very liberating! http://freez.1gb.ru/music/masaccio/barto2.avi (video: 43mb) RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: recorder lute
Yes Roman, to answer you inquiry, if your having no luck with Amazon, try here. http://www.dynamic.it/ just do a search for Baron. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 1:09 PM Subject: Re: recorder lute Yes, please ask Albert, it would be something worth having. Everyone should play some Baron to repay him, for his love, and enthusiasm, for the lute. Michael Thames A much better idea is to play something for its musical qualities. RT When it comes to baroque lute music Beggars can't be choosers. Especially deaf ones who are deluded into thinking JWilliams is a musician RT Yes, please ask Albert, it would be something worth having. Everyone should play some Baron to repay him, for his love, and enthusiasm, for the lute. Michael Thames A much better idea is to play something for its musical qualities. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Baron's several duets for alto recorder and lute come to mind, available in TREE's complete edition, I think. Is that edition facsimalies? frankly spoken, no idea, because I do not own it. Provided you agree, I shall forward your question to Albert, who runs TREE. I got xeroxes of the originals from the libraries. The one from Leipzig is perfectly legibly, the other one less (don't remember provenance). BTW, the was an edition by Lyre music, too, I seem to recall. Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
paintings of sawn neck lutes
Does anyone know of paintings of German baroque lutes, swan neck preferably, after 1732? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: paintings of sawn neck lutes
Anyhow, if Michael Thames promises to behave: http://polyhymnion.org/swv/images/tripledet.jpg http://polyhymnion.org/swv/images/triplepeg.jpg RT I can make no such promises, it's my nature to misbehave, but in all fairness, thanks, for the photo. I do believe I spot some wound basses on that baby. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Felix Krull [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vivtony [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:29 PM Subject: Re: paintings of sawn neck lutes And there was me wondering how you could make a neck without sawing...;-) Lopping off the spell-checker is not a good idea... Quite a few years back there was a gay double harpsichord at the early music show in London with a painting inside the lid. Would one of the figures have sported a swan-neck? There once was a lutenist who was considering sawing off (...on some REALLY PECULIAR newsgroup that comes up Google), but lets not be judgmental. Anyhow, if Michael Thames promises to behave: http://polyhymnion.org/swv/images/tripledet.jpg http://polyhymnion.org/swv/images/triplepeg.jpg RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv TC - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 7:54 PM Subject: Re: paintings of sawn neck lutes They are EXEEDINGLY rare. There is however a painting of a man with a triple-swan-neck on a lid of a Swedish harpsichord. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv Does anyone know of paintings of German baroque lutes, swan neck preferably, after 1732? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
