Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas
If its not too late to weigh in with ideas: 1) A large chunk how to on doing advanced types of XML processing with perl, I'm really interested in the idea that I can serve my content to PDA's (which is the up-and-coming killer platform for my market) and in AppML (Application Markup Language) for which I can find only dribs and draps of information (a description of a toy application, an X Schema, and not much more). 2) Tutorial on persistent objects stored in MySQL, with a view to encoding business rules. 3) Implementing a toy web application using Apache::PageKit -- Christopher L. Everett Chief Technology Officer The Medical Banner Exchange Physicians Employment on the Internet
RE: OSCON ideas - missing proceedings
Mark Schoonover writes: Are there plans to do the University again?? Every year or two I try again to revive it. Your message started me again this year. No promises, but we're looking into it. Thanks Nat for the work you did down here!! Thanks for your kind words. I love every minute of being at a conference, so it's hard to describe it as work.[*] Nat [*] Just don't ask me about the minutes organizing the conference before it all happens :-)
Re: OSCON ideas
Quoting Perrin Harkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): As many of you probably know, the call for participation in this year's Open Source Conference has gone out (http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess). I'm thinking about possible talks to submit and I want a little feedback on what people are most interested in. Here are two options I'mconsidering: 1) Database Objects in Perl This talk would focus on the database mapping options for Perl, including modules like Tangram, Class::DBI, SPOPS, etc. It would examine the differences in features, ease of use, and performance and include a set of hand-coded classes using straight DBI for comparison. This would be a very interesting talk to attend. Alot of applications hook in to databases, so the interest coverage should be pretty high. I've looked at a few of these, and where I struggle is trying to find what is the right tool for the job. When is Tangram too much of a tool and when is straight DBI not enough? What approaches scales as your needs change. I'd throw Alzabo in there as well. Something about the Object to Relational mapping is worthy of inclusion. IIRC, there's also a brief discussion of this in the Advanced Perl Programming book. Maybe I just can't get my brain around some of these frameworks, but I haven't found one that feels right when I have to do a query that isn't just a simple select or join of two tables. 2) The Perl Pet Store This would be a discussion of porting the J2EE Pet Store reference application to Perl. It would cover Perl equivalents for various J2EE features, and talk about what was easier or harder to do in Perl. Because of the size of the Pet Store codebase and the complexity of the environment required to run it (multiple databases, etc.), it may not be possible to do a good performance benchmark. However comparisons on other fronts (amount of code, ease of maintenance, etc.) would be made. I like this one too. What do you guys think? - Perrin
Re: OSCON ideas - missing proceedings
Nathan == Nathan Torkington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nathan Not for two years at least (the duration of the contract with the Nathan Portland hotel). The San Diego hotel was much more expensive and Nathan remote, compared to the Portland hotel. I think people are really Nathan going to enjoy being in the middle of a city at this year's OSCON. Yes... the number of things that are within walking distance of the hotel is rather nice. The waterfront park should be rather spectacular, especially at night when the 14 bridges across the Willamette are lit up in their own unique ways. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: OSCON ideas - missing proceedings
Randal L. Schwartz wrote: Nathan == Nathan Torkington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nathan Not for two years at least (the duration of the contract with the Nathan Portland hotel). The San Diego hotel was much more expensive and Nathan remote, compared to the Portland hotel. I think people are really Nathan going to enjoy being in the middle of a city at this year's OSCON. Yes... the number of things that are within walking distance of the hotel is rather nice. The waterfront park should be rather spectacular, especially at night when the 14 bridges across the Willamette are lit up in their own unique ways. I agree. No matter what, speaking as someone who hasn't travelled around America all that much, I think it's fun to know that the OSCon is in different places every couple of years and to get exposed to those places. Also, speaking as someone who earns money in a non-US currency, having a less expensive place to stay at is much nicer. I am sure the self-employed in the US also feel similarly... (ie anyone who doesn't have a company paying for it...and isn't a shareholder of that company). Later, Gunther
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 09:22:35AM -0700, Rob Nagler wrote: So how about a panel discussion. I would gladly represent the MVC camp. :-) (see http://www.bivio.biz/hm/why-bOP for my position.) And I would gladly represent the MVC-is-not-the-final-word camp :-) A
RE: OSCON ideas - missing proceedings
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Nathan Torkington wrote: Mark Schoonover writes: Any chance they will bring it back to San Diego?? :) Not for two years at least (the duration of the contract with the Portland hotel). The San Diego hotel was much more expensive and remote, compared to the Portland hotel. I think people are really going to enjoy being in the middle of a city at this year's OSCON. Hallelujah to that, brother! San Diego was gorgeous, and the hotel was nice, but I didn't rent a car, and just doing stuff like getting to the city for lunch (on the days when lunch wasn't served) was a giant PITA, compounded by the fact that I'm vegan, so I can't go just anywhere and be guaranteed that they'll have something I'd want. And a less-expensive place is also a good thing. The San Diego Sheraton was _expensive_, and since I'll be footing the bill (hopefully only partially if I can get a tutorial accepted ;) cheaper is good! -dave /*=== House Absolute Consulting www.houseabsolute.com ===*/
Re: [mod_perl] Re: OSCON ideas
Matt Sergeant wrote: I've done a lot on bayes for spam (I had an effective bayesian filter before Paul Graham wrote his article on the subject), but there's not much in it for a full talk. Maybe a lightning talk. Hmm... That would be great Matt. Funny how Paul Graham has become so synonymous with Bayesian probabilities isn't it? Your work preceeds his, Google Page Rank apparently uses Bayesians (pre-Graham) and, here in the UK, Autonomy (http://www.autonomy.com/) have been doing ground-breaking work for a few years now with Bayesians at the core of their technology. Despite this, Paul Graham is the first person people think of when you start to talk Bayesians, I wonder why? -- Jonathan M. Hollin Technical Director: Digital-Word Co. (http://digital-word.com/) Co-ordinator: WYPUG (http://wypug.pm.org/)
Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas
Let's forgive them, hopefully they know better what they are doing... ;-) Fortunately for us, I'm still here (I mean on mod_perl mailing list) to answer any of your practical questions concerning Apache::Dynagzip implementation. Regards, Slava HI Slava, Good to hear you're still here ... it's a bummer they didn't accept your proposal ... I'm sure others would find it very interesting. I'm planning on using Apache::Dynagzip soon after our next release so I'll report back to the list then. Nige Hi Nigel, OSCON is so far away from the Web Content Compression features. They discarded my proposal to talk about Effective Content Delivery over the Web. You know, O'Reilly itself delivers uncompressed web content to date (indeed, they have mod_gzip and mod_perl installed on Apache): C05 -- S06 GET / HTTP/1.1 C05 -- S06 Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/msword, */* C05 -- S06 Referer: http://users.outlook.net/~sbizyaye/cgi-bin/pp-slav.cgi/index.html C05 -- S06 Accept-Language: en-us C05 -- S06 Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate C05 -- S06 User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98) C05 -- S06 Host: www.perl.com C05 -- S06 Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1 == Body was 0 bytes == C05 -- S06 HTTP/1.1 200 OK C05 -- S06 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 02:04:44 GMT C05 -- S06 Server: Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) PHP/4.2.1 mod_gzip/1.3.19.1a mod_perl/1.27 C05 -- S06 P3P: policyref=http://www.oreillynet.com/w3c/p3p.xml,CP=CAO DSP COR CURa ADMa DEVa TAIa PSAa PSDa IVAa IVDa CONo OUR DELa PUBi OTRa IND PHY ONL UNI PUR COM NAV INT DEM CNT STA PRE C05 -- S06 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 C05 -- S06 X-Cache: MISS from www.perl.com C05 -- S06 Transfer-Encoding: chunked C05 -- S06 == Incoming Body was 41869 bytes == == real URL = http://www.perl.com/ == == Transmission: text chunked == == Latency = 0.330 seconds, Extra Delay = 1.480 seconds == Restored Body was 41731 bytes == - Original Message - From: Nigel Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mod_perl list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 11:55 AM Subject: Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas HI, I'd really like to see talks on: 1. Web Server Compression - a comparison, between mod_gzip, DynaGzip Compress etc, pros / cons, SSL compression, and example configurations 2. Application Server Options - a comparison between pure-perl, Apache/mod_perl, POE, SpeedyCGI etc Nige -- Nigel Hamilton Turbo10 Metasearch Engine email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: +44 (0) 207 987 5460 fax: +44 (0) 207 987 5468 http://turbo10.com Search Deeper. Browse Faster. -- Nigel Hamilton Turbo10 Metasearch Engine email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel:+44 (0) 207 987 5460 fax:+44 (0) 207 987 5468 http://turbo10.com Search Deeper. Browse Faster.
Re: [mod_perl] Re: OSCON ideas
On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: Matt Sergeant wrote: I've done a lot on bayes for spam (I had an effective bayesian filter before Paul Graham wrote his article on the subject), but there's not much in it for a full talk. Maybe a lightning talk. Hmm... That would be great Matt. Funny how Paul Graham has become so synonymous with Bayesian probabilities isn't it? Your work preceeds his, Google Page Rank apparently uses Bayesians (pre-Graham) and, here in the UK, Autonomy (http://www.autonomy.com/) have been doing ground-breaking work for a few years now with Bayesians at the core of their technology. Despite this, Paul Graham is the first person people think of when you start to talk Bayesians, I wonder why? To be fair to Paul Graham, what he did was put it in a language that was accessible to geeks. Every single paper or book or whatever I've read on Bayesian probabilities talks in maths gobledegook (although I'm sure Ken Williams may disagree ;-). Paul Graham made it easy for the layman to grok and implement. A bayes lightning talk might be fun though. -- !-- Matt -- :-get a SMart net/:- Spam trap - do not mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OSCON ideas
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote: (http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess). I'm thinking about possible talks to submit and I want a little feedback on what people are most interested in. Here are two options I'mconsidering: 1) Database Objects in Perl I would like to see this one, and thank you very much for the question :) Ciao, Valerio
Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas
HI, I'd really like to see talks on: 1. Web Server Compression - a comparison, between mod_gzip, DynaGzip Compress etc, pros / cons, SSL compression, and example configurations 2. Application Server Options - a comparison between pure-perl, Apache/mod_perl, POE, SpeedyCGI etc Nige -- Nigel Hamilton Turbo10 Metasearch Engine email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel:+44 (0) 207 987 5460 fax:+44 (0) 207 987 5468 http://turbo10.com Search Deeper. Browse Faster.
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Andy Wardley wrote: Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote: I am planning to submit a proposal for a introduction talk on MVC in a web environment. [...] Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my proposal. I like the sound of it, but I should warn you that I have a personal crusade against inappropriate use of the phrase MVC in relation to web development. I like the sound of the proposal also but more because I think that anything Ask is itching to say is probably going to be interesting. So I trust that he'll give a good talk. However, like you, (but in a different way), I am not necessarily so keen on the topic of MVC. I think most programmers know what MVC is all about, the word is likely mentioned in the docs of most template toolkits which probably has led many people to already read the copious volumes of stuff written on the web about MVC, and likewise the mailing lists of many of the open source Perl toolkits out there probably digress into talking about MVC every 3-6 months at some point. :) In other words, I guess I am not sure how interesting MVC really is (to me). It feels like knowledge of MVC is everywhere to be found. So personally, I would not be interested in an MVC talk just for the sake of imparting knowledge on MVC. But if there was an interesting novel twist to it then that would be more interesting. Perhaps rather than asking our opinion on the title of these talks, a 1-paragraph abstract would be useful to also include in terms of giving an idea of the talk. My limited imagination is kind of turned off on the idea of a talk as an intro to MVC. But if the abstract sounded more interesting than my limited imagination is allowing it to based on a generic title/subject name, then something in that might spark more interest to me. It also could be that an intro talk isn't something that would spark interest on the people on this list because... well, those who are the most vocal here aren't really intro level people. But an intro level talk might interest the silent majority who would pay to attend the conference and could be interested in that Intro knowledge from a mentor instead of reading it on the web. So please don't let my naysaying discourage you. I could be completely wrong. Later, Gunther
Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas
Nigel Hamilton wrote: HI, I'd really like to see talks on: 1. Web Server Compression - a comparison, between mod_gzip, DynaGzip Compress etc, pros / cons, SSL compression, and example configurations 2. Application Server Options - a comparison between pure-perl, Apache/mod_perl, POE, SpeedyCGI etc I have done this a couple years ago with Pure-Perl, mod_perl, SpeedyCGI, Velocigen at OSCon. I can forward you my notes if you are interested. But I didn't do it at the level of POE. Comparing POE to mod_perl and SpeedyCGI is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. It feels more apt to compare SOAP::Lite, POE, PerlRPC, ... in terms of a comparison of servers in the same category. And yes, I agree... I would like to see a comparison of SOAP::Lite, POE, PerlRPC, and anything else like them... :) Nige
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Nathan Torkington wrote: Ask Bjoern Hansen writes: On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote: Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my proposal. I've also been asked if anyone has a wishlist of talks they'd like to see at the conference. Ideally they'd be talks I'd pay money to see but I could live with talks I'd like to see even though they're hard to justify to my boss. Feel free to brainstorm here as much as you want :-) I might willing to do 20 mins on How I ported my registry script to mod_perl 2.0 (a.k.a. mod_perl 2.0 war stories). And no, I don't mean 45 mins. :-) -- !-- Matt -- :-get a SMart net/:- Spam trap - do not mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Nathan Torkington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ask Bjoern Hansen writes: On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote: Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my proposal. I've also been asked if anyone has a wishlist of talks they'd like to see at the conference. Ideally they'd be talks I'd pay money to see but I could live with talks I'd like to see even though they're hard to justify to my boss. Feel free to brainstorm here as much as you want :-) I've already submitted my proposal :/ But.. We've had toolkits such as HTML::Mason, AxKit, TT2, Embperl, etc., around for some time. Originally, these seem to have been developed as complete applications in and of themselves (my impression - could be wrong). But, as with anything that is well-done, they are starting to be used in ways that perhaps the developers didn't foresee. For example, we now have Bricolage, OpenInteract, and a host of others (going on memory, not web pages here) that are application frameworks using HTML::Mason, AxKit, etc., as tools just as they might use File::Spec. I can't think of a way to use Bricolage or OpenInteract in the way that they use TT2 or some other toolkit, but I look forward to the day when someone figures out how to do that. :) What I would find interesting would be some talks about what led to some of the design decisions in these frameworks. For example, why is authorization done the way it is -- what were the requirements that led to the data structures, etc? What compromises were made (e.g., speed vs. granularity)? No one authorization system can meet the needs of all applications. The application frameworks represent a lot of the design work in creating a web application. Different applications have different needs in what the frameworks must support. Going over an existing framework in this kind of detail would be instructive for those needing to decide whether to use an existing framework (and which one, if so) or to write one from scratch. One of the beauties of mod_perl is that it inherits the TMTOWTDI attitude of Perl. Unlike other environments, there isn't one framework, one exception structure, one authorization scheme. There are many. We can more easily fit our infrastructure to our application instead of our application to the infrastructure. But for mod_perl to work well, developers need to be able to make educated choices. I think most people in mod_perl understand this and are well-able to educate themselves when needed. But for someone new to Perl/mod_perl, the choices can be daunting (some complain that there are too many choices). A few talks along the line of educating people on what is there and why it is there might help them feel a bit more comfortable. -- James Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], 979-862-3725 Texas AM CIS Operating Systems Group, Unix
Re: OSCON ideas
Perrin Harkins wrote: (http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess). I'm thinking about possible talks to submit and I want a little feedback on what people are most interested in. Here are two options I'mconsidering: I would be extremely interested in talks covering any work that our Perl gurus have done using Bayesian Rules. I am particularly interested in the usage of Bayesian rules for search-engines, spam management, log analysis, firewalling and encryption - has anybody ever covered any of these fields? -- Jonathan M. Hollin Technical Director: Digital-Word Co. (http://digital-word.com/) Co-ordinator: WYPUG (http://wypug.pm.org/)
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Andy Wardley writes:
I like the sound of it, but I should warn you that I have a personal
crusade against inappropriate use of the phrase MVC in relation to
web development.
So how about a panel discussion. I would gladly represent the MVC
camp. :-) (see http://www.bivio.biz/hm/why-bOP for my position.)
I am thinking about giving a talk about subject matter oriented
programming (SMOP). SMOP separates the programming concerns to allow
you to concentrate on the subject matter with minimal distractions.
If you are familiar with patterns, it's the interpreter pattern taken
to the extreme.
The example would be to compare Sun's Pet Store with our own
http://petshop.bivio.biz. The 3 major SMOP languages in bOP's PetShop
allow you to focus on the subject matter in the models, views, and
controllers without getting bogged down in syntax and unnecessary
repetition.
This is not a SMOP from J2EE's Pet Store[1]:
tr
td class=petstore_form align=right
bFirst Name/b
/td
td align=left colspan=2
waf:input cssClass=petstore_form
name=given_name_a
type=text
size=30
maxlength=30
validation=validation
waf:valuec:out value=${customer.account.contactInfo.givenName}//waf:value
/waf:input
/td
/tr
tr
td class=petstore_form align=right
bLast Name/b
/td
td align=left colspan=2
waf:input cssClass=petstore_form
type=text
name=family_name_a
size=30
maxlength=30
waf:valuec:out value=${customer.account.contactInfo.familyName}//waf:value
/waf:input
/td
/tr
And, this is a SMOP in bOP[2]:
[
vs_form_field('UserAccountForm.User.first_name'),
], [
vs_form_field('UserAccountForm.User.last_name'),
],
The intent is to demonstrate the power of Perl to distill the essence
of the subject matter.
Interest?
Rob
[1] http://java.sun.com/blueprints/code/index.html#java_pet_store_demo
[2] http://petshop.bivio.biz/src?s=View.account
Re: OSCON ideas
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote: 2) The Perl Pet Store This would be a discussion of porting the J2EE Pet Store reference application to Perl. It would cover Perl equivalents for various J2EE features, and talk about what was easier or harder to do in Perl. I think this could make for an excellent talk. Along similar lines, I'd be interested in hearing about Perl application frameworks such as OpenInteract, progress of P5EE, etc. - any ammunition I could use that would help displace the misconception that if an app server/framework is required then it must be Java-based.
Re: OSCON ideas
Larry Leszczynski wrote: On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote: 2) The Perl Pet Store This would be a discussion of porting the J2EE Pet Store reference application to Perl. It would cover Perl equivalents for various J2EE features, and talk about what was easier or harder to do in Perl. I think this could make for an excellent talk. Along similar lines, I'd be interested in hearing about Perl application frameworks such as OpenInteract, progress of P5EE, etc. - any ammunition I could use that would help displace the misconception that if an app server/framework is required then it must be Java-based. Several people have brought up benchmarking in reference to the pet store. I don't think it will possible to do a good benchmark of this application, partly because it's so big (it's a reference app that uses lots of functionality just to demonstrate it) and partly because it's well known that the J2EE pet store performs badly. It does not represent anyone's best efforts to make a high-performance Java store. If people are more concerned with seeing something that would dispel myths about Perl performance, rather than a talk on feature portability from J2EE to Perl, I could look at implementing something that really can be benchmarked like the TPC-W spec or the Doculabs Nile Bookstore benchmark. These would be more comparable to existing Java and .NET performance tests. Personally it would warm my heart to help enable a press release saying something like Perl blows away previous price/performance leaders on TPC-W benchmark, but I don't know if hearing about that would be as interesting to people as the other things I proposed. Regardless, I think that posting a good reference implementation of one of these specs might get mod_perl some good attention from the business-oriented mags that usually focus on Java, and would be a valuable marketing tool. - Perrin
Re: OSCON ideas
Perrin Harkins wrote: Several people have brought up benchmarking in reference to the pet store. I don't think it will possible to do a good benchmark of this application, partly because it's so big (it's a reference app that uses lots of functionality just to demonstrate it) and partly because it's well known that the J2EE pet store performs badly. It does not represent anyone's best efforts to make a high-performance Java store. An excellent point. If people are more concerned with seeing something that would dispel myths about Perl performance, rather than a talk on feature portability from J2EE to Perl, I could look at implementing something that really can be benchmarked like the TPC-W spec or the Doculabs Nile Bookstore benchmark. These would be more comparable to existing Java and .NET performance tests. The saliva begins to leak from my lips... Personally it would warm my heart to help enable a press release saying something like Perl blows away previous price/performance leaders on TPC-W benchmark, but I don't know if hearing about that would be as interesting to people as the other things I proposed. Oh yes, now this is more like it. Regardless, I think that posting a good reference implementation of one of these specs might get mod_perl some good attention from the business-oriented mags that usually focus on Java, and would be a valuable marketing tool. I think I've just had an orgasm. ;-) Perrin, you've probably gathered by now that IMHO you've struck gold here. I honestly don't know why this hasn't been done before. Obviously it would be great for all mod_perl programmers to be able to direct their PHBs and/or clients to a paper that validates and justifies the use of mod_perl. I, for one, really hope you pursue this. -- Jonathan M. Hollin Technical Director: Digital-Word Co. (http://digital-word.com/) Co-ordinator: WYPUG (http://wypug.pm.org/)
Re: OSCON ideas
Hi Perrin - If people are more concerned with seeing something that would dispel myths about Perl performance, rather than a talk on feature portability from J2EE to Perl, I agree benchmarks would be a valuable marketing tool, but personally I prefer the feature portability angle - I don't have much trouble demonstrating that I can put together high-performance Perl solutions for the web. What I *do* have trouble with is people assuming you have to go with Java to get a good J2EE-style app framework. Larry Leszczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OSCON ideas
Some of you will find this interesting, but I'd be hesistant placing too much emphasis on it, since it's really just one programmer's view of the cubes he can see. Java programmers are dime a dozen they must breed like rabbits we've got tons of them but where do you get a corporate experienced, clean-cut (75%, at least) person willing to put on the tie 5 days a week and do mod_perl? that's the only rational I have ever heard as to why we don't have more mod_perl here. It's obviously much faster than the java pages (which we spend god awful $$$ on, have you ever have a weblogic server? It's gotta be 50K at least just to say Hi) I'd also guess that someone has thought if you can't buy a support contract, it can't be safe to have. -Original Message- From: Jonathan M. Hollin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:54 PM Cc: mod_perl list Subject: Re: OSCON ideas Perrin Harkins wrote: Several people have brought up benchmarking in reference to the pet store. I don't think it will possible to do a good benchmark of this application, partly because it's so big (it's a reference app that uses lots of functionality just to demonstrate it) and partly because it's well known that the J2EE pet store performs badly. It does not represent anyone's best efforts to make a high-performance Java store. An excellent point. If people are more concerned with seeing something that would dispel myths about Perl performance, rather than a talk on feature portability from J2EE to Perl, I could look at implementing something that really can be benchmarked like the TPC-W spec or the Doculabs Nile Bookstore benchmark. These would be more comparable to existing Java and .NET performance tests. The saliva begins to leak from my lips... Personally it would warm my heart to help enable a press release saying something like Perl blows away previous price/performance leaders on TPC-W benchmark, but I don't know if hearing about that would be as interesting to people as the other things I proposed. Oh yes, now this is more like it. Regardless, I think that posting a good reference implementation of one of these specs might get mod_perl some good attention from the business-oriented mags that usually focus on Java, and would be a valuable marketing tool. I think I've just had an orgasm. ;-) Perrin, you've probably gathered by now that IMHO you've struck gold here. I honestly don't know why this hasn't been done before. Obviously it would be great for all mod_perl programmers to be able to direct their PHBs and/or clients to a paper that validates and justifies the use of mod_perl. I, for one, really hope you pursue this. -- Jonathan M. Hollin Technical Director: Digital-Word Co. (http://digital-word.com/) Co-ordinator: WYPUG (http://wypug.pm.org/) -- This message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the designated recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. This communication is for information purposes only and should not be regarded as an offer to sell or as a solicitation of an offer to buy any financial product, an official confirmation of any transaction, or as an official statement of Lehman Brothers. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Therefore, we do not represent that this information is complete or accurate and it should not be relied upon as such. All information is subject to change without notice.
Re: OSCON ideas
but where do you get a corporate experienced, clean-cut (75%, at least) person willing to put on the tie 5 days a week and do mod_perl? I suspect that there are actually quite a few people on this list that would _love_ to do mod_perl full time. after talking to a few employers over the past year, it's getting them all in one place that's the problem - you probably want them onsite and, unlike the slurry of java programmers in your immediate area, what mod_perl experts there are are spread over the globe and may be unwilling to relocate. open up to telecommuting and I suspect you would soon find yourself fully staffed. --Geoff
Re: OSCON ideas
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote: Perrin Harkins wrote: (http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess). I'm thinking about possible talks to submit and I want a little feedback on what people are most interested in. Here are two options I'mconsidering: I would be extremely interested in talks covering any work that our Perl gurus have done using Bayesian Rules. I am particularly interested in the usage of Bayesian rules for search-engines, spam management, log analysis, firewalling and encryption - has anybody ever covered any of these fields? Ken Williams has. Ken? -dave /*=== House Absolute Consulting www.houseabsolute.com ===*/
RE: OSCON ideas
I suspect that there are actually quite a few people on this list that would _love_ to do mod_perl full time. open up to telecommuting and I suspect you would soon find yourself fully staffed. Definitely. Put me in this category. I'm faced with having to relocate at some point in the not so distant future, and the worst part of it is I'd have to leave my current job where I get to do mod_perl most every day. My preliminary searches aren't looking too fruitful, and I think my first option would be to telecommute to my current job anyway. I'm planning on pitching that idea to them when the time comes that I have to move, but I dunno that they would agree to do it, which would be a shame for both parties. -Fran
[OT] Re: OSCON ideas
but where do you get a corporate experienced, clean-cut (75%, at least) person willing to put on the tie 5 days a week and do mod_perl? Josh: I was with you right up to the part about wearing a tie :-) I suspect that there are actually quite a few people on this list that would _love_ to do mod_perl full time. after talking to a few employers over the past year, it's getting them all in one place that's the problem - you probably want them onsite and, unlike the slurry of java programmers in your immediate area, what mod_perl experts there are are spread over the globe and may be unwilling to relocate. open up to telecommuting and I suspect you would soon find yourself fully staffed. Geoff: I agree, most of the interesting mod_perl gigs I've seen would involve relocating, which isn't a good option for me right now. And I know a fair number of people who would rather be doing mod_perl than what they're doing now, or who do some mod_perl but would like to do it full time, or who do it but are being gradually phased out in favor of Java. But what do we do to change the perception (reality?) that mod_perlers are hard to find? In terms of web services, I think the slurry of available Java programmers compared to mod_perl programmers is a result (maybe in a roundabout way) of assumptions that Java is the only way to go for application frameworks. To a large extent, there are lots of Java programmers out there because there are lots of Java jobs out there (gotta go where the work is). We're hiring Java programmers to augment in-house Java expertise, because we're building products on top of J2EE technologies. Why are we using J2EE instead of a Perl-based application framework? I don't know for sure, nobody asked me, although it's very likely that no non-Java options were presented as viable alternatives. But even if Perrin's OSCON talk (hint hint) gave me some valuable ammunition to show that I could just as easily design on top of a Perl-based application framework as on J2EE, we still come back around to the perception that it's easier to find Java programmers.
Re: [OT] Re: OSCON ideas
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Larry Leszczynski wrote: But even if Perrin's OSCON talk (hint hint) gave me some valuable ammunition to show that I could just as easily design on top of a Perl-based application framework as on J2EE, we still come back around to the perception that it's easier to find Java programmers. My theory is that it takes a heck of a lot more bodies to build a J2EE app than it does to build a Perl app. So maybe you just need more Java programmers to get anything done at all in Java ;) Seriously, I think there is some truth to this. -dave /*=== House Absolute Consulting www.houseabsolute.com ===*/
Re: OSCON ideas
I agree. There are probably more of us than might be immediately obvious, too. If a mod_perl programmer doesn't see too many mod_perl jobs in their area, they're likely to highlight other areas when they go job hunting even if they'd rather do mod_perl and could do it well. I wonder if telecommuting plus occasional travel for face-to-face would sell better than pure telecommuting. Is this done very often in telecommute situations? Wes Geoffrey Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 01/09/2003 01:49:23 PM To:Narins, Josh [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc:mod_perl list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: OSCON ideas but where do you get a corporate experienced, clean-cut (75%, at least) person willing to put on the tie 5 days a week and do mod_perl? I suspect that there are actually quite a few people on this list that would _love_ to do mod_perl full time. after talking to a few employers over the past year, it's getting them all in one place that's the problem - you probably want them onsite and, unlike the slurry of java programmers in your immediate area, what mod_perl experts there are are spread over the globe and may be unwilling to relocate. open up to telecommuting and I suspect you would soon find yourself fully staffed. --Geoff
RE: OSCON ideas
I wonder if telecommuting plus occasional travel for face-to-face would sell better than pure telecommuting. Is this done very often in telecommute situations? This is exactly what I hope to propose if the need arises in my situation. Would love to hear from others who have had success doing this (maybe offline if people feel this is straying too far). -Fran
RE: OSCON ideas - missing proceedings
Any chance they will bring it back to San Diego?? :) .mark -Original Message- From: Robert Landrum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 2:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OSCON ideas - missing proceedings One of the other things I disliked about the last OSCON was the missing Perl Conference Proceedings. I still have very fond memories of reading about Damians very sick, very twisted, Coy.pm in the 1999 Perl Conference Proceedings. Did anyone else notice that they weren't made available at the last OSCON? Any chance we could convince O'Reilly to bring that back? Rob
Re: OSCON ideas
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder if telecommuting plus occasional travel for face-to-face would sell better than pure telecommuting. Is this done very often in telecommute situations? This is exactly what I hope to propose if the need arises in my situation. Would love to hear from others who have had success doing this (maybe offline if people feel this is straying too far). I don't know if it is really appropriate for OSCon, but I think topics on telecommuting tips and tricks definitely tug at the heart strings of many programmers out there. I know that for my own company, I both like and dislike telecommuting. On the dislike side, I don't think I would ever hire someone whom I did not know for telecommuting even if they came recommended because everyone needs to be managed differently and it's very hard to learn the body language without having been there in person for 6 months to a year. This adds a lot to inefficiency of communication which means money out the window when I could just otherwise hire someone local (unless local talent were not withstanding). But we do support telecommuting. After a couple years with us, our RD director moved to Melbourne (instead of Singapore), and when our webmaster moved back temporarily to New York for personal reasons, he telecommuted for months. Anyway, how to make this on topic for OSCon? I am not sure. Perhaps somewhere in this seed of an idea lies a study/comparison of Open Source Development models and tools being very similar (with perhaps some interesting differences) between telecommuting programmers in a corporation in terms of the methods and tools they use to do their jobs.
RE: OSCON ideas - missing proceedings
Mark Schoonover writes: Any chance they will bring it back to San Diego?? :) Not for two years at least (the duration of the contract with the Portland hotel). The San Diego hotel was much more expensive and remote, compared to the Portland hotel. I think people are really going to enjoy being in the middle of a city at this year's OSCON. Nat
Re: OSCON ideas - missing proceedings
Robert Landrum writes: One of the other things I disliked about the last OSCON was the missing Perl Conference Proceedings. They didn't appear because we didn't have time at O'Reilly to do it. They're prepared in Framemaker, to fit with our style guide, and take a huge and painful amount of time to do. Jon Orwant did them in 2000, I did them in 2001, and nobody had time to do them in 2002. I can't see them in 2003, either, as we're not soliciting refereed papers this year. We do make presentation materials available online after the conference ends, for what that's worth. Nat
Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas
Hi Nigel, OSCON is so far away from the Web Content Compression features. They discarded my proposal to talk about Effective Content Delivery over the Web. You know, O'Reilly itself delivers uncompressed web content to date (indeed, they have mod_gzip and mod_perl installed on Apache): C05 -- S06 GET / HTTP/1.1 C05 -- S06 Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/msword, */* C05 -- S06 Referer: http://users.outlook.net/~sbizyaye/cgi-bin/pp-slav.cgi/index.html C05 -- S06 Accept-Language: en-us C05 -- S06 Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate C05 -- S06 User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98) C05 -- S06 Host: www.perl.com C05 -- S06 Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1 == Body was 0 bytes == C05 -- S06 HTTP/1.1 200 OK C05 -- S06 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 02:04:44 GMT C05 -- S06 Server: Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) PHP/4.2.1 mod_gzip/1.3.19.1a mod_perl/1.27 C05 -- S06 P3P: policyref=http://www.oreillynet.com/w3c/p3p.xml,CP=CAO DSP COR CURa ADMa DEVa TAIa PSAa PSDa IVAa IVDa CONo OUR DELa PUBi OTRa IND PHY ONL UNI PUR COM NAV INT DEM CNT STA PRE C05 -- S06 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 C05 -- S06 X-Cache: MISS from www.perl.com C05 -- S06 Transfer-Encoding: chunked C05 -- S06 == Incoming Body was 41869 bytes == == real URL = http://www.perl.com/ == == Transmission: text chunked == == Latency = 0.330 seconds, Extra Delay = 1.480 seconds == Restored Body was 41731 bytes == Let's forgive them, hopefully they know better what they are doing... ;-) Fortunately for us, I'm still here (I mean on mod_perl mailing list) to answer any of your practical questions concerning Apache::Dynagzip implementation. Regards, Slava - Original Message - From: Nigel Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mod_perl list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 11:55 AM Subject: Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas HI, I'd really like to see talks on: 1. Web Server Compression - a comparison, between mod_gzip, DynaGzip Compress etc, pros / cons, SSL compression, and example configurations 2. Application Server Options - a comparison between pure-perl, Apache/mod_perl, POE, SpeedyCGI etc Nige -- Nigel Hamilton Turbo10 Metasearch Engine email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: +44 (0) 207 987 5460 fax: +44 (0) 207 987 5468 http://turbo10.com Search Deeper. Browse Faster.
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote: I am planning to submit a proposal for a introduction talk on MVC in a web environment. [...] Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my proposal. I like the sound of it, but I should warn you that I have a personal crusade against inappropriate use of the phrase MVC in relation to web development. Here's one of my rants on the subject (take with a pinch of salt) : http://lists.ourshack.com/pipermail/templates/2002-November/003974.html I'm considering submitting a proposal for a talk along the lines of MVC is not the only design pattern for web development. I don't plan to shoot MVC down in flames, but rather to illustrate that there are plenty of other design patterns that are as important, if not more important than MVC for web development. Hopefully that means that your proposal/talk and mine should be able to co-exist and complement each other's point of view. A
Re: OSCON ideas - missing proceedings
One of the other things I disliked about the last OSCON was the missing Perl Conference Proceedings. I still have very fond memories of reading about Damians very sick, very twisted, Coy.pm in the 1999 Perl Conference Proceedings. Did anyone else notice that they weren't made available at the last OSCON? Any chance we could convince O'Reilly to bring that back? Rob
OSCON ideas
As many of you probably know, the call for participation in this year's Open Source Conference has gone out (http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess). I'm thinking about possible talks to submit and I want a little feedback on what people are most interested in. Here are two options I'mconsidering: 1) Database Objects in Perl This talk would focus on the database mapping options for Perl, including modules like Tangram, Class::DBI, SPOPS, etc. It would examine the differences in features, ease of use, and performance and include a set of hand-coded classes using straight DBI for comparison. 2) The Perl Pet Store This would be a discussion of porting the J2EE Pet Store reference application to Perl. It would cover Perl equivalents for various J2EE features, and talk about what was easier or harder to do in Perl. Because of the size of the Pet Store codebase and the complexity of the environment required to run it (multiple databases, etc.), it may not be possible to do a good performance benchmark. However comparisons on other fronts (amount of code, ease of maintenance, etc.) would be made. What do you guys think? - Perrin
RE: OSCON ideas
1) Database Objects in Perl This talk would focus on the database mapping options for Perl, including modules like Tangram, Class::DBI, SPOPS, etc. It would examine the differences in features, ease of use, and performance and include a set of hand-coded classes using straight DBI for comparison. This would be excellent. I know I personally have struggled mightily with Tangram (I still to this day don't know how to select only records where column A is not null - tore MUCH hair out of head over that one) and would like to know about options that are easier to use. 2) The Perl Pet Store This would be a discussion of porting the J2EE Pet Store reference application to Perl. It would cover Perl equivalents for various J2EE features, and talk about what was easier or harder to do in Perl. Because of the size of the Pet Store codebase and the complexity of the environment required to run it (multiple databases, etc.), it may not be possible to do a good performance benchmark. However comparisons on other fronts (amount of code, ease of maintenance, etc.) would be made. I'd be curious on this if only to have some ammunition to show people who say Perl isn't as good as Java and that sort of thing. Also, a reference application on par with the pet store would be a valuable tool in the toolbox for all of us Perl folks and people new to Perl but familiar with Java would probably love this. If I had to pick, though, the first proposal would have more of an impact on my day-to-day perl duties. -Fran
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote: I am planning to submit a proposal for a introduction talk on MVC in a web environment. It is mostly talking about why (seperation of concerns etc) it's (sometimes) nicer than whatever you used to do and how you apply the goals to the actual implementation. In 90 minutes I think I can also go briefly into examples of actual models, controllers and templates. I think it could also be a tutorial[1], but tutorials bore me so much. So I don't think I'd want to do that. Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my proposal. :-) - ask [1] Except then I would have to write many more slides; I already have a ~70 minutes talk about it with slides, illustrations and all sorts of things. :-) -- ask bjoern hansen, http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/ !try; do();
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Ask Bjoern Hansen writes: On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote: Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my proposal. I've also been asked if anyone has a wishlist of talks they'd like to see at the conference. Ideally they'd be talks I'd pay money to see but I could live with talks I'd like to see even though they're hard to justify to my boss. Feel free to brainstorm here as much as you want :-) Nat (yes, yes, we all want to see the How mod_perl 2.0 was finished but I'm not sure that's on the cards :-)
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Nathan Torkington wrote: (yes, yes, we all want to see the How mod_perl 2.0 was finished but I'm not sure that's on the cards :-) Since the submission deadline is one week that certainly would not happen. Though an improved mod_perl 2.0 by Example tutorial is definitely a must for those who want to get familiar with most of the 2.0 new features. __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide --- http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Stas Bekman wrote: Since the submission deadline is one week that certainly would not happen. For some reason I thought the deadline was Jan 15th, I see that it's Feb 15th. Submit your proposals here: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide --- http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com
Re: OSCON ideas
On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Perrin Harkins wrote: 1) Database Objects in Perl 2) The Perl Pet Store What do you guys think? I say both. :-) David -- David Wheeler AIM: dwTheory [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 15726394 http://david.wheeler.net/ Yahoo!: dew7e Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Stas Bekman wrote: Stas Bekman wrote: Since the submission deadline is one week that certainly would not happen. For some reason I thought the deadline was Jan 15th, I see that it's Feb 15th. Wow, you scared the crap out of me for a second. I want to submit some talks but it would have been a scramble to submit some for next week! -dave /*=== House Absolute Consulting www.houseabsolute.com ===*/
Re: OSCON ideas
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 04:14:47PM -0500, Perrin Harkins wrote: What do you guys think? As an OSCON attendee for the past few years, I've found only a few talks that really were helpful. One thing that I would love to see are practical implementations of perl applications. For example, we use Mason coupled to a back end API that connects directly to postgres. The API/Mason stuff works like a MVC. It's all pretty standard, and works very well. I'm sure other people have much more interesting examples. This kind of talk would be directed at people who really grasp all the concepts of perl already, and are looking for something to spark their intrest again. Almost like the perl lightning talks, but more focused on application models. Just some thoughts... Rob
