date:20030705

We are doomed, Paul
They'll simply assume that we are ashamed of using
Pentax, that's a fact... ;-)
Damn! I was about to say that...

regards,
Alan Chan
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Re: Paypal article

It's fast, it's easy, and it works.
Better than sending out MO or dealing with credit card for certain, although 
their help system could use a lot of improvement.

regards,
Alan Chan
_
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RE: Paypal article

2003-07-05 Thread Len Paris

It's the liberal thing to do.  Attack anything that is successful.

Len
---

> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Stenquist [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 5:16 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Paypal article
> 
> 
> Lots of Paypal bashing out there on the net. Most of it 
> unwarranted. It's fast, it's easy, and it works. Paul
> 
> Caveman wrote:
> > 
> > For the e-bayers:
> > 
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/31534.html
>

Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

If Pentax does come out with another film SLR, I
think the best we can get is a Mg alloy  *ist with (maybe) and aperture
simulator.
Or just an MZ-S with 11 AF sensors?

regards,
Alan Chan
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Re: Digital Delays?

2003-07-05 Thread Steve Desjardins

On a different note (but same thread title and magazine), the Shutterbug
article on the new Kodak DSLR says it takes 20 sec to boot and there is
no sleep mode.  That could be a major annoyance.


Steven Desjardins
Department of Chemistry
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, VA 24450
(540) 458-8873
FAX: (540) 458-8878
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

2003-07-05 Thread Steve Desjardins

Metal vs. Plastic is a tough trade off.  A lighter body will hit the
ground or swing with less momentum, reducing the force available to do
damage.  Metal will dent, whereas plastic will give but then crack. 
Polycarbonate is tough stuff, even if it doesn't fell as solid.  I'd
actually like to see some "tests to destruction" for camera bodies. 
Anyone know of some? (Official ones, not the kind that Tom does ;-)

Digital cameras are evolving quickly so there is a reason to buy a new
one every few years.  Film cameras are more stable, and I really do
think e are going to see very few really new nigh end film SLR's. 
There's just not money in them anymore, and the "pro show" cameras are
now digital, so its' the 1Ds and not the F5 that has the most "drool"
value.  Like it or not, I think the *ist and it's ilk are the new "sweet
spot" of film SLR's.  If Pentax does come out with another film SLR, I
think the best we can get is a Mg alloy  *ist with (maybe) and aperture
simulator.


Steven Desjardins
Department of Chemistry
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, VA 24450
(540) 458-8873
FAX: (540) 458-8878
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Motor drives ME2 and Motor 2

2003-07-05 Thread Derby Chang

Idle question. I know the Super A can take the winder for the ME super 
(ME2 winder).

Am I right in saying it doesn't work the other way - the Motor A is not 
compatible with the ME super? What extra features are on the Motor A 
that causes the incompatibility?

(Excellent PUG this month too...well done all)

D

--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in"AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Pål Jensen wrote:
William wrote:

What is it when you want to be in a camera segment, but the company you
betted on fails to allow you into that segment?
REPLY:

Then the whining is justified. If you, however, have never bought a Pentax product in your life and never intend to and still whine, you better see a shrink.
You mean, something like that guy Paal Jensen whining about the digital 
back for the Leica R8/R9 ? I agree with you, he needs a visit.

cheers,
caveman

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)


- Original Message - 
From: "Pål Jensen"
"AmericanPhoto"magazine)


> The sorry fact is that most Pentax users are cheapshots regretable as it
is.

The really sorry fact is, Pentax themselves are responsible for this
regretable perception.

William Robb

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in"AmericanPhoto"magazine)


- Original Message - 
From: "Pål Jensen"
in"AmericanPhoto"magazine)


>:
>
> Then the whining is justified. If you, however, have never bought a Pentax
product in your life and never intend to and still whine, you better see a
shrink.

Like I needed justification from you, but thanks anyway.

William Robb

Re: FS Saturday: ZX-5n, Tamron 70-300, Pentax FA 28-70 AL

2003-07-05 Thread Eactivist

>I have bought a Canon Elan 7e. However, I am staying on the list because I 
>will probably buy a MX someday and/or I still have my eye on the *ist D 
>situation develops. But this means I must sell my Pentax gear to finance 
buying the 
>Elan 7e.

On second thought, I feel I have overpriced things, so I am lowering the 
prices.

>For sale:

>Pentax ZX-5n in EXEC + (excellent plus) condition. I bought this from 
someone 
>on this list five months ago. Someone who had only had it a year or less. 
>Slight scratches (very slight) on top of the flash, and a slightly bigger 
scratch 
>next to the view finder. Other than that it looks and acts new (actually it 
>looks great). IMHO, the ZX-5m has a very good light meter. Included are:  
>original camera strap (says Pentax), Battery Grip FG (also EXEC+, mint 
looking), 
>Pentax Cable Switch F (for shutter release -- bought new by me at Adorama), 
the 
>view finder cap, the body cap, the Zx-5n box, the Switch F box, camera 
manual, 
>warranty/other info., & instructions.   
$285 lowered to $275 (firm)

>Tamron AF 70-300 f/4.56 LD Macro 1:2 -- EXEC+, like new. Macro works at 
180mm 
>and above. I have just loved this lens, optically it seems quite good and 
the 
>macro feature is handy. In fact, I have liked it so much that I have also 
>gotten one for the Elan 7e. I bought this new at Adorama bundled with the TC 
in 
>Feb., so it is still under warranty (although I have no idea how warranties 
may 
>be passed along). Included are: Tamron F 1.4 AF TC, lens hood, front and 
rear 
>lens caps, and two boxes. The barn in this month's pug was shot with this 
>zoom and all the other pictures on my show page except for the tree.   
>(http://members.aol.com/tamecomputer/)
$145 lowered to $130

>Pentax FA 28-70 f4 AL, EXEC+. The original owner of the ZX-5n bought this 
>lens at the same time. This zoom supposedly shots down to 3.3 - 1.3 feet, 
but I 
>have found fall off when doing that. Used as a normal and not a macro or 
semi 
>macro zoom, it is just fine and was rated fourth place in PDML normal zoom 
pool 
>conducted by Arnold Stark last November . This is a good zoom that I have 
>found to be very flare resistant (I have used it shooting into the sun in 
>landscape shots several times). Included: original rear and front lens caps, 
box, and 
>warranty/other info., etc. The tree on my show page was shot with this zoom. 
 
>http://members.aol.com/tamecomputer/)
$135 lowered to $110

>Vivitar 2000 Flash, Adjustable Bounce Thyristor Flash, good condition. I 
>bought this from Henry's on ebay about eight months ago for the Pentax 
K-1000 >and have never used it. Not sure what other Pentax cameras it will work 
with. 
>Included are: box and instructions.
$15 (not lowered, I am pretty sure this will work on most Pentax manuals)


>Plus US Post Office shipping charges to wherever you are. Straight shipping 
>charges, no additional "handling" charges. If you want insurance you will 
have 
>to pay extra for that. I can accept personal checks, money orders, and cash 
or 
>credit card payments through PayPal.

>If interested, contact me off list. If you think my prices are too high, 
make 
>me a fair offer (coming close to a price shown) and I will consider it.

Marnie aka Doe ;-)  That's if for lowering. I'll try again next weekend at 
these prices (this was not a good weekend to do this), then onto ebay.

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in"AmericanPhoto"magazine)

William wrote:

What is it when you want to be in a camera segment, but the company you
betted on fails to allow you into that segment?


REPLY:

Then the whining is justified. If you, however, have never bought a Pentax product in 
your life and never intend to and still whine, you better see a shrink.

Pål

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

William wrote:

Earning a customer base worth providing for seems to be work that Pentax
isn't interested in taking on.
They may be on a fast track to oblivion if they stay the course.
I do have to wonder about those expensive FA and LTD lenses, and where they
fit into the entry level customer base.


REPLY:

True. However, you cannot judge Pentax take on slr from the ist's alone. They are 
intended as entry level at film and digital regardless of the fact that some claim 
that they aren't really entry level. 
Pentax have promised more lenses in the fall in their press releases. Unofficially, it 
is claimed to be "the good stuff".
Pentax press release after the demise of the MD-S stated that they wanted to invest 
their DSLR resources at the market segment their customers wanted. The sorry fact is 
that most Pentax users are cheapshots regretable as it is.
It has always been a mystery who the FA* and Limited lenses really are intended for.  

Pål

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "American Photo" magazine)

Caveman wrote:

Recent years ? Canon ? All EF mount lenses work with all EF mount cameras ? Yes, they 
did a major change 20 years ago, from FD to EF, Pentax did one from screw to K too, 
but after that they didn't play sh*tty compatibility games

REPLY:
Huh? The Canon D10 is compatible with lenses Canon have released the last 16 years. 
The *istD is compatible with lenses Pentax have released the last 20 years. Neither 
brand is compatible with 20+ year old lenses. 
The FA-J lenses are for those cheap ones who don't want to pay for aperture rings they 
don't know how to use. Such lenses are popular among Nikon a Canon entry level buyers. 
The rest of us aren't affected by FA-J lenses. The intended market will be please with 
the FA-J lenses. The rest of us can safely ignore them. 
Without compatibility games you had to use the D10 with FD lenses, but most likely 
Canon would have been out of slr manufacturing without "compatibility games". So would 
Nikon. Or Minolta.


Pål

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)


- Original Message - 
From: "Pål Jensen"
Subject: Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in
"AmericanPhoto"magazine)


> William wrote:
>
> I don't think any company can afford to alienate a customer base,
especially
> when it is an also ran who is introducing new for them technology to the
> market place.
>
>
> REPLY:
>
> This requires that you have customer base worth providing for. The Pentax
customer base buy entry level slr's bundled with zooms. Perhaps even Sigma
zooms. They don't know what compatibility means and they will be pleased
with the *ist and the FA-J lenses. The "advanced Pentax Customer" base are
so few that Pentax know every one of them by first name. Yes, this is
exaggregating but there is truth in it.

Earning a customer base worth providing for seems to be work that Pentax
isn't interested in taking on.
They may be on a fast track to oblivion if they stay the course.
I do have to wonder about those expensive FA and LTD lenses, and where they
fit into the entry level customer base.

William Robb

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in"AmericanPhoto"magazine)


- Original Message - 
From: "Pål Jensen"
Subject: Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb
in"AmericanPhoto"magazine)


> Thats not whining but justified complaints. It whining when you whine
about cameras and camera segment you have no interest in. And when it
doesn't at all affect what you are using.

What is it when you want to be in a camera segment, but the company you
betted on fails to allow you into that segment?

William Robb

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

- Original Message - 
From: "Pål Jensen"
Subject: Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in
"AmericanPhoto"magazine)

 Most complains for the fun of it, it seems.

No, we complain because we are quality concious camera users who are
seriously pissed off that the camera line that we have invested in can't be
bothered to build a camera that interests us.
The MZ-S is an ugly girl, but at least she can dance.
The asterist is cheap whore with a wooden leg, the digital version, if it
ever sees the light of day retains the wooden leg as a "feature".
I can understand that they have to make a gimpy whore to stay in the game.
It would be nice if they would give people some sign that they haven't
completely lost their minds, just to allow us to keep the faith.

William Robb

The New Marketplace

Collin wrote:


Pentax is now ready to lead Nikon in the consumer marketplace.
This year will be the FIRST year in the boom of the inexpensive
DSLR.  Canon & Pentax will be there in the $1200-$1500 class.
These are NEW purchases and people will need NEW lenses.
That's how money is made.


We whine too much that Pentax is behind.  But this time they're
leading Nikon & everyone else but Canon.  Kudos.


REPLY:

It is indeed a new market place. Pentax have virtually been absent in the slr game, 
except for the volume segments for about a decade. The MZ-S was a last kudos I suspect 
to satisfy (some) boring old farts. The new stuff is the first intallment (entry 
level) of the new generation of cameras. It is a new ballgame for everyone litterally 
due to the digital revolution.

Pål

Re: The New Marketplace

Jens wrote:

> ..hmmm! I'm not gonna pick this one up! But: It's pobably too much to hope
> for that some other company will make a digital body for K-mount. 

The *ist D is designed to be the platform for Pentax entry level DSLR offerings. 
Hence, it doesn't offer more far reaching, expensive compatibility than the 
competition. It is premature to draw any conclusions from the *istD about Pentax 
DSLR's in general. It is certanly not to be the definitive statement of Pentax DSLR. 
It is squarely targeted at a certain market segment. 

Pål

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Jens wrote:

> Any research about age of Pentax users/buyers - or buyers of digital cameras
> above 1500-2000$?

Not even Nikon bothers with this sort of compatibility in the *ist D class and they 
have a old user base incredibly much larger than Pentax. Digital attracks new buyers 
to a large extent.  
I talked with Pentax reps about this about a month ago and he promptly said the market 
didn't exist. Theres perhaps a couple of persons in whole country that it would affect 
but those had lenses that was compatible anyway.  Some Pentax MF users might be 
interested otherwise it is a completely new market. SLR sales, and Pentax in 
particular, is totally dominated be entry level cameras bundled with kit lenses. And 
although Nikon and Canon have higher end sales, miniscule compared to the volume stuff 
anyway, Pentax doesn't really at all in comparison. In addition, those who own older 
gear rarely own more than two cheap zoom lenses and their usability rarely enters the 
equation when doing such substantial investment as a DSLR. Nikon and Canon may have a 
lots of "advanced users". Pentax doesn't.  Sure it is annoying for those affacted but 
they are minority among those who complains. Most complains for the fun of it, it 
seems. 

Pål

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

William wrote:

I don't think any company can afford to alienate a customer base, especially
when it is an also ran who is introducing new for them technology to the
market place.


REPLY:

This requires that you have customer base worth providing for. The Pentax customer 
base buy entry level slr's bundled with zooms. Perhaps even Sigma zooms. They don't 
know what compatibility means and they will be pleased with the *ist and the FA-J 
lenses. The "advanced Pentax Customer" base are so few that Pentax know every one of 
them by first name. Yes, this is exaggregating but there is truth in it.

Pål

Re: The New Marketplace

Alan wrote:

> There is a major difference here. SM & K are completely different 
> physically, but we are still living in the k-mount era, not the next 
> generation mount yet. The real issue is not how many years Pentax chose to 
> support, but they removed the coupling ring just to push the sale of current 
> lenses (I am not saying they are wrong). However, you are correct if you 
> only look at the number of years.

To my mind it is better to make a gradual upgrade path instead of a clear cut. Pentax 
doesn't have to change mount to make it fully electronic unlike Canon. 
The crippled mount doesn't affect the vast majority of *ists customers and it gives 
them a cheaper camera something they appreciate. The *ist is TIPA camera of the year. 
I haven't read the justification but perhaps it is because it offer lots of value for 
money, in terms of features? The FA-J lenses are cheap too. Perhaps it is all crap but 
is going to sell. 

Pål

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in"AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Alan wrote:

> And there is the 4th category - those who keep buying Pentax products but 
> complaining constantly. They don't consider those are their customers either 
> because of the trouble (the truth doesn't really matter). They care about 
> your money, not the whining. And that is me.  :-)

Thats not whining but justified complaints. It whining when you whine about cameras 
and camera segment you have no interest in. And when it doesn't at all affect what you 
are using. 

> Btw, the correct statement should be " They are a business and care about 
> money."

Sure

Pål

RE: The New Marketplace

Hi William
..hmmm! I'm not gonna pick this one up! But: It's pobably too much to hope
for that some other company will make a digital body for K-mount. I mean -
Kodak made a great camera (the DCS 14n) for Nikon lenses. It would be great
if capitalism became liberal (?!), that the manufacturers could agree on a
common lens mount! Like VHS tapes, cassette tapes, film cassets, CD-ROM
players, car tires, roof tiles etc., etc...
Well, when Canon and Nikon finally beats them all, they'll probably all be
making cheep lenses for C* & N* mount which will eventually merge?

BTW: Pål has a point. Pentax has for decades been in front, making SLR's
with considerable consumer appeal: Lightweight, small, flash on board, as
well as a lot built in P&S features. THe Z1 and Z1-p even have a "green
mode" for P$S'ers (the latter was custumiseable, though)!

Jens




-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: William Robb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sendt: 5. juli 2003 22:41
Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Emne: Re: The New Marketplace



- Original Message -
From: "Jens Bladt"
Subject: SV: The New Marketplace


>
> Hi
> I'd rather have a digital back for compatibility - or garanties that they
> will keep making film for the next 20 years! (BTW - film sales are still
> increasing world wide!)
> BTW it's not Whining - it's consumers needs - a smooth (affordable)
> transistion to the digital (consumer)revolution...

If you agree with Pål, it's about consumer needs. If you disagree, it's
whining.

William Robb

Re: The New Marketplace


- Original Message - 
From: "Alan Chan"
Subject: Re: The New Marketplace


> >If you agree with Pål, it's about consumer needs. If you disagree, it's
> >whining.
>
> Who am I? A person who spent & whined.

You and me both, Alan.

William Robb

Re: FS Saturday: ZX-5n, Tamron 70-300 Macro, Pentax FA 28-70 AL

2003-07-05 Thread Eactivist

>Congratulations. What lenses have you eyed ?

>cheers,
>caveman

Well, lower priced Canon zooms (and primes) are probably not as good as lower 
priced Pentax zooms (and primes). So I got two Tamron zooms (including the 
70-300), but for USM I am eyeing the Canon 28-105 USM (I or II) or the Canon 
28-135 USM IS. But that will have to wait for now. The camera hasn't even arrived 
yet. Want to play with it first, but I think I will need a USM eventually 
(fairly soon) to really check out the auto focus. So when I can afford it. 

And remember! (everyone else) I am trying to sell some Pentax gear in this 
thread.

Hehehehehe.

Marnie aka Doe :-)

Re: The New Marketplace

If you agree with Pål, it's about consumer needs. If you disagree, it's
whining.
Who am I? A person who spent & whined.

regards,
Alan Chan
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RE: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Hi Pål and others
The future might bring a lot of "Not Pentax Users" who use UDSED PENTAX
stuff. From all the people who sell out their Pentax gear. Hell, I still use
Exaktas, Topcons, Rolleiflexes... Why? Because they are really great
cameras, of course. Just like some current and discontinued Pentax model
were/still are.

I don't believe Pentax only supports first time buyers - the new generation.
Digital stuff is so expensive, that most buyers will be fifty and above
Any research about age of Pentax users/buyers - or buyers of digital cameras
above 1500-2000$?

Jens

-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: Caveman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sendt: 5. juli 2003 22:38
Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Emne: Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in
"AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Pål Jensen wrote:
> Caveman wrote:
>
> Could you please define what an "advanced Pentax user" is, and do you
include yourself in that category ?
>
>
> REPLY:
> I was replying to post about "advanced Pentax customers" and I replied in
this context.

Since you didn't answer the question, let me try again: could you please
define what is an "advanced Pentax user" and what is an "advanced Pentax
customer" ? Do you include yourself in one of these categories, and if
yes, in which one ?

> Pentax doesn't really care about either of those (not surprisingly). [...]
> Pentax isn't interested in users.

Since when did Pentax appoint you as their spokesman ?

cheers,
caveman

Re: SV: The New Marketplace

The whining about the lack of compatibility with lenses more than 20 years
old is equally meaningful as whining about the lack of Asahiflex
compatibility of the LX back in 1980.
There is a major difference here. SM & K are completely different 
physically, but we are still living in the k-mount era, not the next 
generation mount yet. The real issue is not how many years Pentax chose to 
support, but they removed the coupling ring just to push the sale of current 
lenses (I am not saying they are wrong). However, you are correct if you 
only look at the number of years.

regards,
Alan Chan
_
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http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

Re: FS Saturday: ZX-5n, Tamron 70-300 Macro, Pentax FA 28-70 AL

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have bought a Canon Elan 7e. 
Congratulations. What lenses have you eyed ?

cheers,
caveman

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in"AmericanPhoto"magazine)

I was replying to post about "advanced Pentax customers" and I replied in 
this context. Users who have never bought a single Pentax item new aren't 
even customers and never have been. And those who bought equipment more 
than 20 years ago are previous customers. Pentax doesn't really care about 
either of those (not surprisingly).
A third category, like Arnold, is so few and far between that they don't 
really count.
Pentax isn't interested in users. They are a business and care about 
customers.
And there is the 4th category - those who keep buying Pentax products but 
complaining constantly. They don't consider those are their customers either 
because of the trouble (the truth doesn't really matter). They care about 
your money, not the whining. And that is me.  :-)

Btw, the correct statement should be " They are a business and care about 
money."

regards,
Alan Chan
_
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Re: The New Marketplace

2003-07-05 Thread collinb

Because this Christmas when you go shopping for a
DSLR for a gift there will be 2 prices for the enthusiast.
Only two at this point.  Pentax & Canon.
It's as much about marketing as about technology.
They failed in marketing by being the last out with
AF SLR.  But now they're @ the forefront with the enthusiast DSLR.
CRB

From: Joseph Tainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: pdml <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Collin, please, how is Pentax "leading Nikon & everyone else but Canon"?

Thanks,

Joe

Re: The New Marketplace


- Original Message - 
From: "Jens Bladt"
Subject: SV: The New Marketplace


>
> Hi
> I'd rather have a digital back for compatibility - or garanties that they
> will keep making film for the next 20 years! (BTW - film sales are still
> increasing world wide!)
> BTW it's not Whining - it's consumers needs - a smooth (affordable)
> transistion to the digital (consumer)revolution...

If you agree with Pål, it's about consumer needs. If you disagree, it's
whining.

William Robb

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)


- Original Message - 
From: "Caveman"
Subject: Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in
"AmericanPhoto"magazine)



> Since when did Pentax appoint you as their spokesman ?

Perhaps he looks so good waving pom poms that they had to do it.

William Robb

SV: The New Marketplace


Hi
I'd rather have a digital back for compatibility - or garanties that they
will keep making film for the next 20 years! (BTW - film sales are still
increasing world wide!)
BTW it's not Whining - it's consumers needs - a smooth (affordable)
transistion to the digital (consumer)revolution...
Jens

-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: Pål Jensen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sendt: 5. juli 2003 22:10
Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Emne: Re: The New Marketplace


Collin wrote:

Pentax is now ready to lead Nikon in the consumer marketplace.
This year will be the FIRST year in the boom of the inexpensive
DSLR.  Canon & Pentax will be there in the $1200-$1500 class.
These are NEW purchases and people will need NEW lenses.
That's how money is made.


REPLY:
The whining about the lack of compatibility with lenses more than 20 years
old is equally meaningful as whining about the lack of Asahiflex
compatibility of the LX back in 1980.


Pål

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Pål Jensen wrote:
Caveman wrote:

Could you please define what an "advanced Pentax user" is, and do you include yourself in that category ?

REPLY:
I was replying to post about "advanced Pentax customers" and I replied in this context. 
Since you didn't answer the question, let me try again: could you please 
define what is an "advanced Pentax user" and what is an "advanced Pentax 
customer" ? Do you include yourself in one of these categories, and if 
yes, in which one ?

Pentax doesn't really care about either of those (not surprisingly). [...]
Pentax isn't interested in users. 
Since when did Pentax appoint you as their spokesman ?

cheers,
caveman

SV: Digital Delays?

I meant a 6MP CCD, of cource!
Jens

-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: Jens Bladt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sendt: 5. juli 2003 22:29
Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Emne: RE: Digital Delays?


Hi Joe
...to check the file size for a certain ppi, check out www.shortcourses.com
there's a spreadsheet you can fill in. I doubt that a 6MP file (1800x1200)
can be that large.
If I'm wrong, please tell me why!
Jens


-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: Joseph Tainter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sendt: 5. juli 2003 19:43
Til: pdml
Emne: Digital Delays?


I've just read an article in Shutterbug about raw files, and how much a
digicam has to do to convert a raw file to TIFF or JPG. When I
eventually buy a digital SLR I will probably do 99% of my shooting at
the highest possible resolution that the camera offers, with files
converted to TIFF. That may make for 30 to 50 mb files. My current
computer (Athlon 1.33 ghz, 512 mb ram) might take a second or so to
compute all of the conversions that a digicam does when it converts raw
files to TIFF. I cannot imagine that a camera like the starkistdee will
have greater processing power than my desktop PC. That being so, can
such cameras really achieve several frames per second while producing
high resolution TIFF files? Rather than frames per second, it seems to
me that the equation might be seconds per frame.

Maybe someone who has tried a digital SLR (Cotty?) can let us know.

Thanks,

Joe

RE: Digital Delays?

Hi Joe
...to check the file size for a certain ppi, check out www.shortcourses.com
there's a spreadsheet you can fill in. I doubt that a 6MP file (1800x1200)
can be that large.
If I'm wrong, please tell me why!
Jens


-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: Joseph Tainter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sendt: 5. juli 2003 19:43
Til: pdml
Emne: Digital Delays?


I've just read an article in Shutterbug about raw files, and how much a
digicam has to do to convert a raw file to TIFF or JPG. When I
eventually buy a digital SLR I will probably do 99% of my shooting at
the highest possible resolution that the camera offers, with files
converted to TIFF. That may make for 30 to 50 mb files. My current
computer (Athlon 1.33 ghz, 512 mb ram) might take a second or so to
compute all of the conversions that a digicam does when it converts raw
files to TIFF. I cannot imagine that a camera like the starkistdee will
have greater processing power than my desktop PC. That being so, can
such cameras really achieve several frames per second while producing
high resolution TIFF files? Rather than frames per second, it seems to
me that the equation might be seconds per frame.

Maybe someone who has tried a digital SLR (Cotty?) can let us know.

Thanks,

Joe

RE: *ist D was not production type :-(

...
1. Doubles or halves the light in-let.
2. Fast enough to let as much light in as if it were totally open for 1/125
sec. (which it's not in cameras with flashsyncs slower than 1/125 sec.)
3. Check yor Hyperfocal distance table for that particular focal length
4. No clue
5. Give or take a stop (or two).

Kidding
Jens

-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: T Rittenhouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sendt: 5. juli 2003 17:30
Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Emne: Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

Brucey thought he was kidding .

1. How big is an f-stop
2. How fast does your shutter open and close when set to 125.
3. What f-stop do you have to use to have everything from 8 feet to infinity
sharp in your photography.
4. What f-stop do you need to get proper exposure with a #5 clear flash bulb
at 7 feet.
5. How accurate is the Sunny-16 rule for exposure.

Ciao,
Graywolf
http://pages.prodigy.net/graywolfphoto

- Original Message -
From: "Bruce Rubenstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

> Don't worry Lon, if you are as old as Tom then you have the "knowledge
> of the ages" and can use any gear you desire. If you are younger, then
> you have to take a written test of Tom's (he doesn't care about a
> portfolio: only theory counts) to get permission to use auto capable
> cameras.
>
> BR
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Tom, I use this kind of "logic" to justify shooting nothing newer
> > than a SuperProgram, but yesterday I fooled around with my wife's
> > ZX-L and experienced a tad of envy.  Some of the touches on the
> > newer cameras, even one as basic as the -L, are really nice.
> >
> > I believe they can help capture the instinctive "grab" shots that
> > tend to pass me by.
> >
>
>

SV: SV: D-SLR poll on dpreview

Ha, In Denmark Pentax and Sigma have the same import company...
Jens

-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: Caveman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sendt: 5. juli 2003 19:22
Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Emne: Re: SV: D-SLR poll on dpreview


results until now indicate that pentax is only slightly more credible 
than sigma. which ain't a surprise.

RE: Pentax-A 300mm f2.8

Oh yes.
These are the current index prices for used equipment according to
FotoMagazin i Germany. The list is on-line and called "Fomag liste" - prices
in Euros ( a bit more worth than a US Dollar, at the present time).

The prices are based on the actual market. In Denmark the prices  used to be
even a little higher (before trading on the internet was too common). Its
funny, though, that the street price of the FA lens is so much lower than
the list price. I guess nobody buys from the official importer anymore. They
actually want 3000 USD for a MS-S with a 24-90 lens!!! I can buy it for
almost 1/3 in the US. But then there's the Danish 25% VAT. When I buy from
the US they charge me sometimes - maybe once out of ten times (Of course
it's illegal not to pay VAT). You can buy a car for what they charge you for
af FA 2.8/300mm!
All the best
Jens

-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: Alan Chan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sendt: 5. juli 2003 05:53
Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Emne: RE: Pentax-A 300mm f2.8


>In Europe: 2500 Euro equal to  appr. 2875 $ (SMC FA* 2.8/300mm EDIF).

How much are Canon or Nikon equivalence? People actually paid that much for
that lens???

regards,
Alan Chan

_
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
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Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

2003-07-05 Thread Joseph Tainter

Rüdiger wrote:

"you are absolutly right, it would be technicaly no effort to allow stop 
down
metering with non A lenses, or metering in DOF mode an put it in the ML
memory.
Pentax has prevented this compability by perpose.
The people shall by new lenses, but that will not work. Pentax is loosing
his
only advantage over Canon and Nikon, the k-mount compabilty.
At lot of old K1000 and ME users would have bought the *istD, now the will
not.
If the usage of old lenses is not convinient, they will buy new AF lenses.
With the K-mount incompabilty Pentax is loosing their strongest marketing
argument."

I'll admit to knowing little about marketing, so the following is 
speculation. Pentax has been living off k-mount compatibility for years 
now. That is a declining market as older Pentax users quit or switch. So 
the switch to a new mount may mean that Pentax will try to increase its 
market share by recruiting new users, and is trying to increase 
profitability by forcing people to buy new lenses.

Joe

I made a DX code label!

2003-07-05 Thread Sid Barras

Yep. Found the code online via some thoughtful PDMLers,
 (thanks Michael)
formatted a label in Appleworks, printed it, and covered the printed areas
with scotch tape to make sure they aren't conductive.

Reports on the success of these will be forwarded along after the pictures
are taken and developed.
I gotta have surgery on Tuesday so I may be out a couple of weeks.

Sid

Re: SV: D-SLR poll on dpreview

results until now indicate that pentax is only slightly more credible 
than sigma. which ain't a surprise.

Re: The New Marketplace

2003-07-05 Thread Joseph Tainter

Collin, please, how is Pentax "leading Nikon & everyone else but Canon"?

Thanks,

Joe

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

2003-07-05 Thread Arnold Stark

Pål,

Isn't it wide open metering a simpler solution?

Right, but with K- and M-lenses you need an aperture simulator coupling
ring to be able to have that. Without such ring (and I already accept
the absence of it on the *ist D as a fact) you can have metering only
for the maximum aperture (as implemented in *ist and *ist D) or with
the lens stopped down.

Theres an exposure bar in the finder; if you set the aperture three stop from wide open, just dial in +3. Simple.

Are you going to dial in + 7 for f16 with the M50/f1.4?

I fear that a camera manufacturer who release a camera where you have to activate the DOF preview before metering and then note the exposure, switch to manual exposure and then dial it in, will be promptly laughed out of business.

I never suggested such scheme. I am under the impression that you don't
really care to understand what I write. I suggested a much simpler
scheme: Plain stop down metering. Let me repeat:
Provided that you have any lens that is not in "A" position the meter
wouldn't work until DOF preview would be activated. In manual mode there
would then be the bar showing over- or underexposure. In aperture
priotity mode, the metered value could be locked when DOF preview would
be left. That's all. No switching between modes would be required.

However, the way the *ist D is now it will really be laughed at: When
using a K lens, you need to measure the time that the camera would
choose for maximum aperture. Then one needs to calculate the correct
time for the chosen aperture, swtich to manual mode and dial in the
calculated time. That is ridiculous, it is hilarious.

In fact, the current solution with wide open metering would be faster and simpler in use.

Only in another universe.

Arnold

SV: SV: Pentax Equipment Gets the Job Done

Oh yes, You can ACTIVATE IT MANUALLY. But still the camera motor does it. I
allways have mine set to manual activated. When photographing for
conventions etc. I cant have that noise when the camera beleives it's time!!
:-)
Jens

-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: Thomas Stach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sendt: 4. juli 2003 22:48
Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Emne: Re: SV: Pentax Equipment Gets the Job Done




Jens Bladt schrieb:
>
> Hi
> The PZ1-p does not have a button to hold in while rewinding...and no
manual
> rewind function!
> Jens
>
>(snip)

Hm,
not quite true.
You can choose (PF11), whether the camera starts automatic rewind
automatically,
or only after you manually confirmed to do so!
;-)

Thomas

SV: D-SLR poll on dpreview

The price of the *ist D will with a lens in Denmark exeed 3000 USD
(G)!
Jens

-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: Rüdiger Neumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sendt: 4. juli 2003 22:33
Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Emne: D-SLR poll on dpreview


Hallo
on dpreview there ist the following question:

Imagine you had $2800 to spend, which D-SLR would you buy (leaving some
money for lenses)?
Canon EOS-10D
Nikon D100
Olympus E-1
Fujifilm S2 Pro
Pentax *ist D
Sigma SD9

Go to dpreview and vote (ist on the "news" page)
regards
Rüdiger

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

2003-07-05 Thread Keith Whaley



Pål Jensen wrote:
> 
[...]
> 
> Lon:
> Who in his right mind wants to spend more bucks for a new
> plastic lens to replace old workhorses that have better
> build and very good optical quality?
> 
> REPLY:
> 
> I've replaced all my K (except one), M and most A lenses because the newer lenses 
> have significantly better optical quality. 

_Significantly_ better OPTICAL performance? I may well have missed that
somewhere onsite, but where does it say that? In other words, who says so?

> They also offer AF and Matrix metering.

keith whaley

> Pål

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

An advanced Pentax user is someone who has their Pentax gear under glass 
as museum pieces, and takes pictures with some other brand of cameras.

BR

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Could you please define what an "advanced Pentax user" is, and do you 
include yourself in that category ?

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

An advanced Pentax user is Pål Jensen.

BR

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Could you please define what an "advanced Pentax user" is, and do you 
include yourself in that category ?

FS Sat.

2003-07-05 Thread collinb

Sears "202" A-class 75-300 zoom with 58mm Tiffen filter
   $40
Ricoh 55/2.2 normal lens.
   $15
Pentax-A 70-210/4 "good" condition.  Some play to the barrel.
   $60
Ricoh KR-10M body.
   $50
Will accept (even in bad shape) a Kodak 2-D in trade.

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Pål Jensen wrote:
Firstly, the premise is wrong. The most advanced Pentax users have replaced their 20 year old lenses long time ago. 
Could you please define what an "advanced Pentax user" is, and do you 
include yourself in that category ?

Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

OK, I'll take a wack at answering:

1) An f stop's hole size (radius or diameter, take your pick) depends
on focal length.  f2.8 at 50mm is a smaller hole than f2.8 at 100mm.  The
actual size of the hole is something I'm uninterested in.
2) A shutter set at 125 should expose some point of film to light for
exactly 128th of a second.  However, 125th is plenty close enough.  The
shutter itself may be exposing light for longer than that as it runs along
the film.
3) The hyperfocal f-stop is going to depend on focal length.  Many older
wide primes have an f-stop (typically f8) in a different color and even a
special focal length mark to indicate these settings.  I've used 'em, btw.
My M35 f2.8 often gets set this way.
4) I have NO idea about flash bulbs.  I'll guess f8 (and be there)

5) Sunny-16 is "dead nuts on" for most people, even slide shooters.  Another
one I've used often.
Does being over 50 classify me as aged?  Even so, my total SLR experience
is lumped into the last 10 years.  I'm a newbie..
T Rittenhouse wrote:
Brucey thought he was kidding .

1. How big is an f-stop
2. How fast does your shutter open and close when set to 125.
3. What f-stop do you have to use to have everything from 8 feet to infinity
sharp in your photography.
4. What f-stop do you need to get proper exposure with a #5 clear flash bulb
at 7 feet.
5. How accurate is the Sunny-16 rule for exposure.
Ciao,
Graywolf
http://pages.prodigy.net/graywolfphoto
- Original Message -
From: "Bruce Rubenstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: *ist D was not production type :-(


Don't worry Lon, if you are as old as Tom then you have the "knowledge
of the ages" and can use any gear you desire. If you are younger, then
you have to take a written test of Tom's (he doesn't care about a
portfolio: only theory counts) to get permission to use auto capable
cameras.
BR

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Tom, I use this kind of "logic" to justify shooting nothing newer
than a SuperProgram, but yesterday I fooled around with my wife's
ZX-L and experienced a tad of envy.  Some of the touches on the
newer cameras, even one as basic as the -L, are really nice.
I believe they can help capture the instinctive "grab" shots that
tend to pass me by.

Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

I get Grandfathered into the "Knowledge of the Ages, Old Crock 
Photographers Union" in September when I turn 50. I don't need your test.

BR

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Brucey thought he was kidding .

1. How big is an f-stop
2. How fast does your shutter open and close when set to 125.
3. What f-stop do you have to use to have everything from 8 feet to infinity
sharp in your photography.
4. What f-stop do you need to get proper exposure with a #5 clear flash bulb
at 7 feet.
5. How accurate is the Sunny-16 rule for exposure.

Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

2003-07-05 Thread T Rittenhouse

Brucey thought he was kidding .

1. How big is an f-stop
2. How fast does your shutter open and close when set to 125.
3. What f-stop do you have to use to have everything from 8 feet to infinity
sharp in your photography.
4. What f-stop do you need to get proper exposure with a #5 clear flash bulb
at 7 feet.
5. How accurate is the Sunny-16 rule for exposure.

Ciao,
Graywolf
http://pages.prodigy.net/graywolfphoto


- Original Message -
From: "Bruce Rubenstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: *ist D was not production type :-(


> Don't worry Lon, if you are as old as Tom then you have the "knowledge
> of the ages" and can use any gear you desire. If you are younger, then
> you have to take a written test of Tom's (he doesn't care about a
> portfolio: only theory counts) to get permission to use auto capable
> cameras.
>
> BR
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Tom, I use this kind of "logic" to justify shooting nothing newer
> > than a SuperProgram, but yesterday I fooled around with my wife's
> > ZX-L and experienced a tad of envy.  Some of the touches on the
> > newer cameras, even one as basic as the -L, are really nice.
> >
> > I believe they can help capture the instinctive "grab" shots that
> > tend to pass me by.
> >
>
>

Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

2003-07-05 Thread Dag T

You know, the funny part of teasing you is to see how you project your 
insecurity on others by trying to be insulting.  Take a note:  it 
doesn´t work.

I´m fairly native to the English language, although my writing may have 
some errors as I haven´t lived in the states for some years and I 
usually write technical stuff in English (you know: Physics and other 
things you don´t understand).  I understand you quite well, thank you.

Have a nice day!

DagT

På lørdag, 5. juli 2003, kl. 17:11, skrev Bruce Rubenstein:

 Also,  as an insecure, defensive Pentax user you have certain knee 
jerk reactions, but do make an attempt to read what you think you are 
responding to.

See ya!

2003-07-05 Thread ernreed2

Unsubscribing to go on vacation. Later!!

ERNR

Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

Don't worry Lon, if you are as old as Tom then you have the "knowledge 
of the ages" and can use any gear you desire. If you are younger, then 
you have to take a written test of Tom's (he doesn't care about a 
portfolio: only theory counts) to get permission to use auto capable 
cameras.

BR

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Tom, I use this kind of "logic" to justify shooting nothing newer
than a SuperProgram, but yesterday I fooled around with my wife's
ZX-L and experienced a tad of envy.  Some of the touches on the
newer cameras, even one as basic as the -L, are really nice.
I believe they can help capture the instinctive "grab" shots that
tend to pass me by.

Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

The last part makes no difference. All that counts is the image. Nobody 
knows, or cares how you got it.

BR

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi
On the other hand...
A good photographer is a person who gets good photographs - and without
getting disliked by his "victims".

Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

A LF camera isn't very GOOD for underwater photography, is it? I only 
said good and bad, you had to go into all sorts of hardware issues. You 
also left out the first part of what I said, which is introducing 
hardware obscures the main point that good photographers take better 
pictures than bad ones.
I realize as a someone for who English isn't their native language, they 
may miss some things. Also,  as an insecure, defensive Pentax user you 
have certain knee jerk reactions, but do make an attempt to read what 
you think you are responding to.

BR

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Sure, but he would know that it´s difficult, e.g. to use an LF camera 
for underwater photography or an APS camera if he wanted large prints 
of landscapes :-)

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Pål Jensen wrote:
Canon and Nikon are where they are because they gave a rats ass about users of more than 20 year old lenses. 
Canon is where it is because they invest in R&D and come up with the 
right product & technology at the right time. The others try to imitate 
them with a 2-3 years lag (Nikon) or gave up altogether (Pentax).

The New Marketplace

2003-07-05 Thread collinb

Pentax is now ready to lead Nikon in the consumer marketplace.
This year will be the FIRST year in the boom of the inexpensive
DSLR.  Canon & Pentax will be there in the $1200-$1500 class.
These are NEW purchases and people will need NEW lenses.
That's how money is made.
We whine too much that Pentax is behind.  But this time they're
leading Nikon & everyone else but Canon.  Kudos.
Collin

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Dig a company report. Fabricated figures have no real meaning.

Pål Jensen wrote:
This is a complete misunderstanding. The number of Pentax customers (as opposed to users) who buy an slr with compatibility of more than 20 year old lenses are so few that percentage is not a useful way to measure it. Just ask any Pentax rep. 90% of all slr sales, and this include Nikon and Canon, are in the Rebel/*ist class and they are sold with kit lenses. For Pentax the number is probably closer to 98%. Calling an "advantage" that only benefit less than 1% of the buyers as strongest marketing argument is simply misguided. Only a tiny fraction of the tiny percentage use older than 20 year old lenses. Only a tiny fraction of those again are in the market for a DSLR. 
Still, 20 year backwards compatibility with lenses is the best of any DSLR. 
The 90% slr market segment is what all manufacturer now will chase for DSLR. This is where the volume is. Another volume segment are those upgrading from digital P&S. More than 20 years backward compatibilty doesn't mean anything to these customers. Nor does it mean much to anyone else. I can't recollect any manufacturer of modern camerras who cater for customers with more than 20 year old equipment. If such a move had any advantages in business term I'm sure it would have been common. 

Pål

Re: D-SLR poll on dpreview

2003-07-05 Thread Steve Desjardins

I'm surprised at how bad Nikon is doing.  


Steven Desjardins
Department of Chemistry
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, VA 24450
(540) 458-8873
FAX: (540) 458-8878
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Lon wrote:

Another thing that crosses my mind with regard to
the *ist-D:  Pentax's most advanced customers are
probably those most likely to own a few older K/M/Screw
lenses.  Why would a company want to produce a _first_
digital SLR that alienates its most experienced users?



REPLY:

Firstly, the premise is wrong. The most advanced Pentax users have replaced their 20 
year old lenses long time ago. It is the conservative users, collectors  and those who 
can't afford, or have no interest in,  new equipment who sit on lenses more than 20 
years old. This is true for all brands. Very few of them are in the market for a DSLR. 
Secondly, the *ist's are targeted to the volume segment where compatibility with 20+ 
year old lenses are of zero importance. 


Lon:
Who in his right mind wants to spend more bucks for a new
plastic lens to replace old workhorses that have better
build and very good optical quality?


REPLY:

I've replaced all my K (except one), M and most A lenses because the newer lenses have 
significantly better optical quality. They also offer AF and Matrix metering. 


Pål

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)



Rüdiger wrote:
It is the gred of Pentax from preventing using K-mount lenses, but it will
not pay, the people will go to Canon or Nikon.


REPLY:

Canon and Nikon are where they are because they gave a rats ass about users of more 
than 20 year old lenses. If Pentax is going to survive they have to catch up not make 
expensive or clumsy solutions for people who don't buy new lenses. 
People who refuse to buy new Pentax lenses but gladly buy new Canon or Nikon lenses 
better switch!

Pål

Re: Happy 4th of July

2003-07-05 Thread Cotty

>An ancestor of mine, one William White,
>left England on a ship called the Mayflower
>because, had he stayed, he would have been
>hung.  He was a horse thief.  Your great-
>great-great-great-great-great-great grandaddy
>was undoubtably the trial judge.
>
>This explains the family folk song passed
>down to me thru the generations:  "Cot the
>Sot is a wretched old Snot.."  Very
>snappy little ditty.  Grin..

LOL. 

There was this yank called Lon,
whose clan he did wonder on
it seems they were traitors
thieves and libators
It's quiet here now they gone...


;-)




Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)   |  People, Places, Pastiche
||=|  www.macads.co.uk/snaps
_
Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

2003-07-05 Thread Rüdiger Neumann

Hallo Arnold,
every word is absolutly right from you.
I have the impression, Pentax has a software to prevent compability and
switch of the metering in M-mode (like on the Nikon F80).
I will cost no money at all to allow stop down metering in Av mode with Dof
or in M-mode. Funny, in the manual of the *ist is write that the time is
changing if you are turning the aperture ring on k-mount lenses, but that
does not work.

I myself have no problems with k-mount lenses, because I have only F/FA/A
lenses but I fear they are ruin the Pentax company
regards
Rüdiger



Von: Arnold Stark

>Pål Jensen schrieb:
>
>>A screw mount lens will be stopped down when mounted. A K/M lens will be
wide open regardless of aperture set on the lens. Hence, the camera need to
stop down (with a motor) when metering with the latter. How does it know it
is a K/M lens and not a screw mount lens?
>>
>REPLY:
>The camera need not know whether the lens is screw mount or k-mount. If
> the lens is screw mount, then it is already stopped down and the camera
>trying to close the aperture has no effect. If the lens  is k-mount DOF
>preview stops down the lens.
>
>>This will be an awful solution both technically and in use only to please
extremely few users.
>>
>REPLY:
>This is what is already is implemented in *ist and *ist D (unfortunately
>without metering when DOF preview is activated). It is not an awful
>solution but straightforward.
>
>>What if you forget to active DOF preview when metering?
>>
>REPLY:
>With a lens not in "A" position, metering should only be ON when DOF
>preview is activated. Actually, this would probably save battery power.
>
>>What if you accidentally use the same procedure with an FA lens out of
habit?
>>
>REPLY:
>With an FA lens in A position, the meter should be OFF when DOF
>previewing. With the same lens not in "A" position, the meter should
>only be ON when DOF previewing. Quite simple, isn't it? How can you
>confuse the meter being ON or OFF?
>
>>Is the exposure value  remembered by the camera or are stucked in manual
mode only? If it use exposure lock then the camera must be designed so that
it locks the metered value when activating DOF preview only with K/M lenses.
>>
>REPLY:
>See above: With a lens in "A" position, there is (and should be) no
>metering when DOF previewing. With any lens (FA, F, A, K, M, screw) not
>being in "A" position, metering should only be active when DOF
>previewing, and the measured value could be locked when DOF preview is
>ended.
>
>>The idea is probbaly to make a camera thats easy to use. The above make it
truly crippled not to mention confusing.
>>
>REPLY:
>I hope your confusion is cured by now.
>
>>Pentax really had three choices. 1) Stick to the old KAF2 mount. 2) KAF2
with "electronic" metering . 3) Two separate metering systems 1)+2). 1)
would probably make the *ist D incompatible with future lenses hence doing
the customers no favour. 2) is what they did. 3) would be both awkward in
engineering and expensive.
>>
>REPLY:
>It would only cost a few hours of programming and rewriting instrucion
>manuals. Stop-down metering as described by me would neither require any
>changes in the hardware nor would it complicate the use of the camera.
>On the contrary: The camera would be much easier to use with the
>built-in meter than without it.
>
>>Customers won't pay for it.
>>
>>
>REPLY:
>Customers would not need to pay for it as it wouldn't have costed
>anything extra if Pentax had thought of it in the first place, and to
>update the camera software now would be payed for a lot of times by the
>extra cameras that would be sold, even if it were just a few.
>
>Arnold
>

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Another thing that crosses my mind with regard to
the *ist-D:  Pentax's most advanced customers are
probably those most likely to own a few older K/M/Screw
lenses.  Why would a company want to produce a _first_
digital SLR that alienates its most experienced users?
Who in his right mind wants to spend more bucks for a new
plastic lens to replace old workhorses that have better
build and very good optical quality?
The *ist doesn't bother me, but the *ist-D does.

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

2003-07-05 Thread Rüdiger Neumann

Hallo Pal,
I'm wondering that this group of k-mount user shall be that small. When I
read in dpreview, there are a lot of people  who are writing, I will wait
for the great Pentax *istD, because than I can use my k-mount lenses.
If this group is that small why does Pentax make a software to prevent
compability. I would be easy without any effort to allow stopdown metering
in Av mode or metering in M-mode.
I should work, like it is writen in the *ist manual, but it doesn't.
It is the gred of Pentax from preventing using K-mount lenses, but it will
not pay, the people will go to Canon or Nikon.
regards
Rüdiger

Von: Pål Jensen

>Rüdiger wrote:
>
>With the K-mount incompabilty Pentax is loosing their strongest marketing
>argument.
>
>
>
>REPLY:
>
>This is a complete misunderstanding. The number of Pentax customers (as
opposed to users) who buy an slr with compatibility of more than 20 year old
lenses are so few that percentage is not a useful way to measure it. Just
ask any Pentax rep. 90% of all slr sales, and this include Nikon and Canon,
are in the Rebel/*ist class and they are sold with kit lenses. For Pentax
the number is probably closer to 98%. Calling an "advantage" that only
benefit less than 1% of the buyers as strongest marketing argument is simply
misguided. Only a tiny fraction of the tiny percentage use older than 20
year old lenses. Only a tiny fraction of those again are in the market for a
DSLR.
>Still, 20 year backwards compatibility with lenses is the best of any DSLR.
>The 90% slr market segment is what all manufacturer now will chase for
DSLR. This is where the volume is. Another volume segment are those
upgrading from digital P&S. More than 20 years backward compatibilty doesn't
mean anything to these customers. Nor does it mean much to anyone else. I
can't recollect any manufacturer of modern camerras who cater for customers
with more than 20 year old equipment. If such a move had any advantages in
business term I'm sure it would have been common.
>
>Pål
>
>
>
>

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Isn't it wide open metering a simpler solution? Theres an exposure bar in the finder; 
if you set the aperture three stop from wide open, just dial in +3. Simple. 
I fear that a camera manufacturer who release a camera where you have to activate the 
DOF preview before metering and then note the exposure, switch to manual exposure and 
then dial it in, will be promptly laughed out of business. In fact, the current 
solution with wide open metering would be faster and simpler in use. 

Pål


---


Pål Jensen schrieb:


A screw mount lens will be stopped down when mounted. A K/M lens will be wide open 
regardless of aperture set on the lens. Hence, the camera need to stop down (with a 
motor) when metering with the latter. How does it know it is a K/M lens and not a 
screw mount lens? 


REPLY:
The camera need not know whether the lens is screw mount or k-mount. If the lens is 
screw mount, then it is already stopped down and the camera trying to close the 
aperture has no effect. If the lens is k-mount DOF preview stops down the lens.


This will be an awful solution both technically and in use only to please extremely 
few users. 


REPLY:
This is what is already is implemented in *ist and *ist D (unfortunately without 
metering when DOF preview is activated). It is not an awful solution but 
straightforward.


What if you forget to active DOF preview when metering? 


REPLY:
With a lens not in "A" position, metering should only be ON when DOF preview is 
activated. Actually, this would probably save battery power.


What if you accidentally use the same procedure with an FA lens out of habit? 


REPLY:
With an FA lens in A position, the meter should be OFF when DOF previewing. With the 
same lens not in "A" position, the meter should only be ON when DOF previewing. Quite 
simple, isn't it? How can you confuse the meter being ON or OFF?


Is the exposure value remembered by the camera or are stucked in manual mode only? If 
it use exposure lock then the camera must be designed so that it locks the metered 
value when activating DOF preview only with K/M lenses. 


REPLY:
See above: With a lens in "A" position, there is (and should be) no metering when DOF 
previewing. With any lens (FA, F, A, K, M, screw) not being in "A" position, metering 
should only be active when DOF previewing, and the measured value could be locked when 
DOF preview is ended. 


The idea is probbaly to make a camera thats easy to use. The above make it truly 
crippled not to mention confusing.


REPLY:
I hope your confusion is cured by now.


Pentax really had three choices. 1) Stick to the old KAF2 mount. 2) KAF2 with 
"electronic" metering . 3) Two separate metering systems 1)+2). 1) would probably make 
the *ist D incompatible with future lenses hence doing the customers no favour. 2) is 
what they did. 3) would be both awkward in engineering and expensive. 


REPLY:
It would only cost a few hours of programming and rewriting instrucion manuals. 
Stop-down metering as described by me would neither require any changes in the 
hardware nor would it complicate the use of the camera. On the contrary: The camera 
would be much easier to use with the built-in meter than without it.


Customers won't pay for it. 


REPLY:
Customers would not need to pay for it as it wouldn't have costed anything extra if 
Pentax had thought of it in the first place, and to update the camera software now 
would be payed for a lot of times by the extra cameras that would be sold, even if it 
were just a few.

Arnold

Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

This has not been my experience if you use a longer lens and
keep your subject reasonably close to a wall.  I like to
use a 135 prime in-doors for such shots.  It always sucks
if you're using something like a 50mm and there is no close
background you'll get a subject surrounded by black every
time
Alan Chan wrote:

Auto exposure with flash indoor, sucks everytime.

regards,
Alan Chan
_
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Re: Fireworks in NY

I sallied forth on the Fourth for fireworks, as well.
Two MX's preloaded with 100 speed film, two cable
releases, a tripod, and 20/24/28/35mm primes ready
to serve between F11 and F16.
I had pre-checked location, parking, etc.  I knew
exactly where to set up.  My hat was lined with
aluminum foil to serve as a quick-on/quick-off
lens cap.  I was a savvy, no-nonsense, Pentax-equipped
photographing Machine.
About 9:00 PM huge clouds rolled in.  By 9:30 the
entire city, a county seat, was in blackout.  By
9:45 there was flooding.
I ducked into a candle-lit bar that was doing a _brisk_
buisness.  No shots this year.
Ann Sanfedele wrote:
Hope Amita got some good stuff  - it was a
particularly spectactular display.  I didn't shoot
anything (for sundry reasons, not photo related.)
But watched with friends who were
a tad skeptical about the view they would have
from the roof of my building in the east village
but
were astounded with the perfect seats we had and
no hassles with crowds and such.
Last year, when Rob Studdart visited the weather
was not the best, but this year it was
clear and amazing... seemed like there were new
colors introduced.
annsan

Re: Color correction

Yes they do, the ones with ICE/ROC/GEM will make
an attempt.  ICE does scratches, ROC is for color
restoration, and GEM is for grain reduction, I believe.
I doubt that ROC does anything that you can't do in
photoshop, and there are limitations to the "magic"
of this sort of software.  Most of the better books
on Photoshop have a section or two about restoration
techniques.
This is from what I've read.  Other than scratches,
I've never had to deal with the problems old photos
or film can throw at you.
collinb wrote:
We were going through some old slides.
A lot of the E-6 stuff faded.
Do the slide scanners have s/w to fix that to any degree?
If so, which ones/models?
TIA,

Collin

Re: Tamron and *ist

2003-07-05 Thread Alin Flaider


  Warren, is your 300/5.6 closing up to f/32? If not, you should be
  concerned about underexposing with one stop when setting the
  aperture from the body. This is due because the body mistakenly
  takes the maximum 5.6 for 4 and will mistake every other aperture
  with one stop. You can already simulate the behaviour of *ist d with
  a camera capable of setting the aperture from the body, like Z1-p,
  MZ-7, etc. if you have one. Take an exposure reading with the
  aperture set from the lens, and a second one with the aperture set
  from the body.

  From the Adaptall-2 KA adaptor manual: "when using Tamron lenses
  with a maximum aperture of f/4.5 or slower (maximum aperture at wide
  end) in the program AE oe shutter-priority AE position [my note:
  this is always the case with *ist d], underexposure can be cause if
  the indicated aperture value in the viewfinder is faster than the
  original maximum aperture value (f/4.5 or slower). In this case
  please use aperture priority AE or Manual modes [my note: which the
  *ist d does not support with aperture set from the lens ring]".
  
  As for the 500/8, this will behave like a K/M lens, that is you can
  take pictures with it in Av/M modes if you enable the custom
  function that unlocks the shutter if the aperture ring is not on A.
  Apparently you won't be able to use the meter in manual mode.

  All other lenses you mentioned should be okay.

  Servus,   Alin
  
W. wrote:

WX> In Boz' wonderful page he explains the difficulties
WX> with using Adaptall mount lens with the KA adapter. I
WX> don't quite understand what he is saying. I have a
WX> bunch of Tamron lens that I want to use on my new *ist
WX> D (in the future of course) but don't understand what
WX> limitations they will have.  I have a 17/3.5,
WX> 35-105/2.8, 80-200/2.8, 90/2.5, 180/2.5, 350/5.6, 
WX> 400/4, and 500/8. What are the practical limitations
WX> on use of my Tamrons? I looked back in the archives a
WX> couple of years but came up with only the info below. 
WX> Please help.

WX> Warren

WX> << The Tamron KA Adaptall Mount

WX> When Joachim Hein read the above discussion, he
WX> immediately understood the roots of the exposure
WX> problems that some Adaptall lenses have. These are all
WX> "slow" lenses with minimum aperture setting of f/22
WX> and an "AE" setting or f/32 and no "AE" setting In the
WX> latter case, f/32 is converted to "AE"). "AE" is the
WX> Tamron equivalent of the Pentax "A" setting. Looking
WX> in the second column of the table above, we see that
WX> there is no contact pattern for lenses with apertures
WX> ranging between f/4.5 or slower and f/22. Tamron
WX> solves this by making the Adaptall mount indicate a
WX> maximum aperture of f/4 and warning in the mount
WX> manual that the photographer must watch the aperture
WX> read-out in the view-finder (not available with
WX> P30/P50!) to ensure that only values within the true
WX> aperture range are used.>>>

Re: Happy 4th of July

Collin, you stole my response!  lol.
Exactly what I was thinking.
collinb wrote:
At 12:02 PM 7/4/2003 -0400, you wrote:

Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 11:17:12 -0400
From: "tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
God, I used to love blowing things up.

tv


Now you let your assistants do it for you? :)

Collin

Re: Happy 4th of July

An ancestor of mine, one William White,
left England on a ship called the Mayflower
because, had he stayed, he would have been
hung.  He was a horse thief.  Your great-
great-great-great-great-great-great grandaddy
was undoubtably the trial judge.
This explains the family folk song passed
down to me thru the generations:  "Cot the
Sot is a wretched old Snot.."  Very
snappy little ditty.  Grin..
>
From: "Cotty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> PS - of course, the reason I celebrate the 4th is
> because we finally got rid of those damned yanks!

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

2003-07-05 Thread Arnold Stark

Pål Jensen schrieb:

A screw mount lens will be stopped down when mounted. A K/M lens will be wide open regardless of aperture set on the lens. Hence, the camera need to stop down (with a motor) when metering with the latter. How does it know it is a K/M lens and not a screw mount lens?

REPLY:
The camera need not know whether the lens is screw mount or k-mount. If
the lens is screw mount, then it is already stopped down and the camera
trying to close the aperture has no effect. If the lens is k-mount DOF
preview stops down the lens.

This will be an awful solution both technically and in use only to please extremely few users.

REPLY:
This is what is already is implemented in *ist and *ist D (unfortunately
without metering when DOF preview is activated). It is not an awful
solution but straightforward.

What if you forget to active DOF preview when metering?

REPLY:
With a lens not in "A" position, metering should only be ON when DOF
preview is activated. Actually, this would probably save battery power.

What if you accidentally use the same procedure with an FA lens out of habit?

REPLY:
With an FA lens in A position, the meter should be OFF when DOF
previewing. With the same lens not in "A" position, the meter should
only be ON when DOF previewing. Quite simple, isn't it? How can you
confuse the meter being ON or OFF?

Is the exposure value remembered by the camera or are stucked in manual mode only? If it use exposure lock then the camera must be designed so that it locks the metered value when activating DOF preview only with K/M lenses.

REPLY:
See above: With a lens in "A" position, there is (and should be) no
metering when DOF previewing. With any lens (FA, F, A, K, M, screw) not
being in "A" position, metering should only be active when DOF
previewing, and the measured value could be locked when DOF preview is
ended.

The idea is probbaly to make a camera thats easy to use. The above make it truly crippled not to mention confusing.

REPLY:
I hope your confusion is cured by now.
Pentax really had three choices. 1) Stick to the old KAF2 mount. 2) KAF2 with "electronic" metering . 3) Two separate metering systems 1)+2). 1) would probably make the *ist D incompatible with future lenses hence doing the customers no favour. 2) is what they did. 3) would be both awkward in engineering and expensive.

REPLY:
It would only cost a few hours of programming and rewriting instrucion
manuals. Stop-down metering as described by me would neither require any
changes in the hardware nor would it complicate the use of the camera.
On the contrary: The camera would be much easier to use with the
built-in meter than without it.

Customers won't pay for it.

REPLY:
Customers would not need to pay for it as it wouldn't have costed
anything extra if Pentax had thought of it in the first place, and to
update the camera software now would be payed for a lot of times by the
extra cameras that would be sold, even if it were just a few.

Arnold

Re: *ist D was not production type :-(

Tom, I use this kind of "logic" to justify shooting nothing newer
than a SuperProgram, but yesterday I fooled around with my wife's
ZX-L and experienced a tad of envy.  Some of the touches on the
newer cameras, even one as basic as the -L, are really nice.
I believe they can help capture the instinctive "grab" shots that
tend to pass me by.
T Rittenhouse wrote:
Well, first off, Bill, most of the cameras us "old farts" like are almost as
old as the kids who are complaining about us using them. If the new auto
everything wonder cameras they insist is the only thing that works actually
took better quality photographs, there might me something to their argument,
but in fact they do not, and in many cases they do not do as well as the
older cameras mostly due to the need to make things light enough not to
overload the focusing motors.
The fact that most of the whippersnappers can not believe that you can make
photos of action, or do flash without TTL, much less using guide numbers,
shows that their cameras are better photographers than they are. As you well
know, all you need are  aperture, shutter speed, and focus controls and a
little knowledge. However, on many current cameras you are not a
photographer you are a camera programmer. Yes on the better cameras you can
override everything but since it is designed not for human interface but for
computer interface, that is never as satisfactory as a camera designed for
human interface.
Simply put, most of the improvements in each new generation of cameras is
better interface with, and more capability for, the built in autopilot. If
you prefer to drive it yourself the new cameras really offer no improvement.
Unlike the automobiles you mention which tend to be faster, safer, and more
comfortable than 20 year old ones. In fact, cameras are in some ways more
like airplanes than cars as there are still a lot of 20, 30, or 50 year old
ones still in service.
Anyway, it is hard for a 22 year old computer programmer to figure why
anyone would use a camera that is older than he is other than cheapness.

Re[2]: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "American Photo" magazine)

2003-07-05 Thread Alin Flaider


  Looking at my last 8 rolls of Provia, the statistics are that I
  bracket for almost every still subject in order to have a copy, to
  vary depth of field or try a smoother boke, and only once or twice
  I did bracket for exposure. And that happened when I wasn't sure of
  the compensation to apply on a certain shade I had my spot meter on.
  Odd as it may sound I'm perfectly happy with all the exposures,
  but then my needs are not that varied. :o\

  Servus,   Alin

Herb wrote:

HC> bracketing everything is cheap. not having near duplicate
HC> originals to send out and not having different variations to suit
HC> different needs is foolish. there is no such thing as a single perfect  
HC> exposure of a scene to suit every need.

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)

Arnold wrote:

1.) The *ist D KNOWS when there is no lens in A position. It treats all lenses that 
are not in A position equally. This is fine, as to enable stop down metering for all 
such lenses (including srew mount and manual aperture k-mount lenses) there is no need 
to distinguish between them. All that is needed is to release the aperture lever when 
metering with any lens not being in "A" position, disregarding wheter the lens has an 
aperture lever or not.


REPLY:

A screw mount lens will be stopped down when mounted. A K/M lens will be wide open 
regardless of aperture set on the lens. Hence, the camera need to stop down (with a 
motor) when metering with the latter. How does it know it is a K/M lens and not a 
screw mount lens?  This will be an awful solution both technically and in use only to 
please extremely few users. 
What if you forget to active DOF preview when metering? What if you accidentally use 
the same procedure with an FA lens out of habit? Is the exposure value  remembered by 
the camera or are stucked in manual mode only? If it use exposure lock then the camera 
must be designed so that it locks the metered value when activating DOF preview only 
with K/M lenses. The idea is probbaly to make a camera thats easy to use. The above 
make it truly crippled not to mention confusing.
Pentax really had three choices. 1) Stick to the old KAF2 mount. 2) KAF2 with 
"electronic" metering . 3) Two separate metering systems 1)+2). 1) would probably make 
the *ist D incompatible with future lenses hence doing the customers no favour. 2) is 
what they did. 3) would be both awkward in engineering and expensive. Customers won't 
pay for it.  


Pål

Re: Lens compatibility in perspective (WAS: Re: D-ist blurb in "AmericanPhoto"magazine)