Re: Trolls
Looks like we have another one. You can always tell a troll by the constant gush of messages. Whenever anybody else responds to his thread, the troll must answer. He must have the last word. This reminds me of my kids. "Well, he poked me first. I just poked him back." Poke, poke, poke, poke, poke,... each child constantly responding. Lucky for me, my kids grew up and out of this phase. Un-lucky for us, we have someone who hasn't matured beyond this level. Regards, Bob S.
Re: Trolls
Bob S., Interesting... I was standing in line at the supermarket last evening. The young woman in front of me had two children. When she took the wrapped ice cream bar away from her two year old son so she could pay for it, he threw himself on the floor flailing, kicking and shrieking. The he got up grabbed the ice cream bar and threw it on the floor. Everyone just smiled (except me). When I got to the register I remarked to the clerk and lady behind me that my son would have only acted like that once... in fact I don't think he ever did. The lady behind me remarked that "there's lots of different ways to raise children and it seems most come out all right". (I agree with that in part, everyone has the right to raise their children as they see fit... except here in America, sarcasm intended). Then I reminded her ,"But there's quite a few adults you don't like isn't there?" When I was about 16 and my brother was 12 we were fighting. My Dad made us sit on the couch and hold hands for 15 minutes. Man did that take the fight out! Tom C. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:30:54 -0400 Looks like we have another one. You can always tell a troll by the constant gush of messages. Whenever anybody else responds to his thread, the troll must answer. He must have the last word. This reminds me of my kids. "Well, he poked me first. I just poked him back." Poke, poke, poke, poke, poke,... each child constantly responding. Lucky for me, my kids grew up and out of this phase. Un-lucky for us, we have someone who hasn't matured beyond this level. Regards, Bob S.
Re: Trolls
In a message dated 5/18/2004 9:33:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Un-lucky for us, we have someone who hasn't matured beyond this level. Regards, Bob S. --- Frankly, I think that word, that label, gets thrown around much too loosely. Often people just throw it at people who disagree with them. A troll is someone who is deliberately being provocative to illicite responses because, basically, they don't have a life and a lot of feedback validates their existence. And, for whatever reason, trolls get validation mainly from negative feedback. (Yeah, just like a kid who "acts up" to get attention.) Believe me I've seen much worse "trolls" than this list ever gets. And most of the so-called trolls on this list haven't been trolls, just people who have disagreed and then felt frustrated when people tell them their disagreement isn't legitimate. Marnie aka Doe Hmmm, except, maybe Brad Dobo *was* a troll. Yeah, he sure fit the definition I gave.
Re: Trolls
I thought a troll was somebody that lived under a bridge and didn't let the Three Billy Goats Gruff cross over to the other side. Tom C. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:39:35 EDT In a message dated 5/18/2004 9:33:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Un-lucky for us, we have someone who hasn't matured beyond this level. Regards, Bob S. --- Frankly, I think that word, that label, gets thrown around much too loosely. Often people just throw it at people who disagree with them. A troll is someone who is deliberately being provocative to illicite responses because, basically, they don't have a life and a lot of feedback validates their existence. And, for whatever reason, trolls get validation mainly from negative feedback. (Yeah, just like a kid who "acts up" to get attention.) Believe me I've seen much worse "trolls" than this list ever gets. And most of the so-called trolls on this list haven't been trolls, just people who have disagreed and then felt frustrated when people tell them their disagreement isn't legitimate. Marnie aka Doe Hmmm, except, maybe Brad Dobo *was* a troll. Yeah, he sure fit the definition I gave.
Re: Trolls
Can't we talk about McDonalds and where they get their beef from? Please? Tom C. From: Anders Hultman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 20:22:29 +0200 (MEST) On Tue, 18 May 2004, Antonio Aparicio wrote: > Anders, thanks for the definition of troll You're welcome. > Well certainly none of my posts were designed to illicit flames, nor > did I post any specious arguments, make personal attacks nor intend to > disrupt a discussion. If anything messages from Bob S and Co. would > better fit that description. My opinions were clearly and perhaps > strongly put, but that is how I feel about the matter. Windows OS, is > in my very humble opinion a sub-standard OS. Well, since you don't have a deliberate purpose of starting flame wars you're not a troll by this definition. Still, opinions about the merits of the Windows OS is not the topic of this list. I too think that Windows is a somewhat sub-standard OS, but I don't feel the need to voice that opinion in this forum. Or, well, sometimes I do, but I try to avoid it, and if I sometimes would do it, I know that it really is inappropriate so I keep it very short, and I certainly don't write several posts a day about it. anders - http://anders.hultman.nu/ med dagens bild och allt!
Re: Trolls
In that case I diagree with everything you said! :) Tom C. From: "Bob Blakely" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Trolls Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:27:56 -0700 EVERY great innovator, in all fields of endeavor, held "a minority view" and was "prepared to "argue it against more than one person and win the argument." Galileo, Gandhi, Herbert Armstrong, Martin Luther king, Copernicus. The converse, however, is not necessarily true. Regards, Bob... From: "Antonio Aparicio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Apparently it is someone who holds a minority view and is prepared to > argue it against more than one person and win the argument.
Re: Trolls
In a message dated 5/18/2004 11:35:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can't we talk about McDonalds and where they get their beef from? Please? Tom C. -- You really want to get into an argument about whether people should eat beef at all? Because cattle are laying waste to large areas of land with their grazing? Land that could be used more productively for growing vegetables? Okay. ;-) Marnie aka Doe Who is not a vegetarian but knows some of their arguments.
RE: Trolls
Mmmm McDonalds... Well, now I'm going to McDonalds. Look what you've done!!! -Shawn -Original Message- From: Tom C [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 2:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls Can't we talk about McDonalds and where they get their beef from? Please? Tom C. From: Anders Hultman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 20:22:29 +0200 (MEST) On Tue, 18 May 2004, Antonio Aparicio wrote: > Anders, thanks for the definition of troll You're welcome. > Well certainly none of my posts were designed to illicit flames, nor > did I post any specious arguments, make personal attacks nor intend to > disrupt a discussion. If anything messages from Bob S and Co. would > better fit that description. My opinions were clearly and perhaps > strongly put, but that is how I feel about the matter. Windows OS, is > in my very humble opinion a sub-standard OS. Well, since you don't have a deliberate purpose of starting flame wars you're not a troll by this definition. Still, opinions about the merits of the Windows OS is not the topic of this list. I too think that Windows is a somewhat sub-standard OS, but I don't feel the need to voice that opinion in this forum. Or, well, sometimes I do, but I try to avoid it, and if I sometimes would do it, I know that it really is inappropriate so I keep it very short, and I certainly don't write several posts a day about it. anders - http://anders.hultman.nu/ med dagens bild och allt!
RE: Trolls
I'm not a big beef fan really. I hear McDonalds burgers are like 30% beef and the rest is soy. Anyone know if thats true?? -Shawn -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 2:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls In a message dated 5/18/2004 11:35:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can't we talk about McDonalds and where they get their beef from? Please? Tom C. -- You really want to get into an argument about whether people should eat beef at all? Because cattle are laying waste to large areas of land with their grazing? Land that could be used more productively for growing vegetables? Okay. ;-) Marnie aka Doe Who is not a vegetarian but knows some of their arguments.
Re: Trolls
Here in Michigan, a troll is someone who lives beneath the bridge (Mackinaw that is) HAR HAR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls In a message dated 5/18/2004 9:33:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Un-lucky for us, we have someone who hasn't matured beyond this level. Regards, Bob S. --- Frankly, I think that word, that label, gets thrown around much too loosely. Often people just throw it at people who disagree with them. A troll is someone who is deliberately being provocative to illicite responses because, basically, they don't have a life and a lot of feedback validates their existence. And, for whatever reason, trolls get validation mainly from negative feedback. (Yeah, just like a kid who "acts up" to get attention.) Believe me I've seen much worse "trolls" than this list ever gets. And most of the so-called trolls on this list haven't been trolls, just people who have disagreed and then felt frustrated when people tell them their disagreement isn't legitimate. Marnie aka Doe Hmmm, except, maybe Brad Dobo *was* a troll. Yeah, he sure fit the definition I gave. PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
Re: Trolls
Marnie, I didn't make it to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian. :) Tom C. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:39:35 EDT In a message dated 5/18/2004 11:35:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can't we talk about McDonalds and where they get their beef from? Please? Tom C. -- You really want to get into an argument about whether people should eat beef at all? Because cattle are laying waste to large areas of land with their grazing? Land that could be used more productively for growing vegetables? Okay. ;-) Marnie aka Doe Who is not a vegetarian but knows some of their arguments.
Re: Trolls
On Tue, 18 May 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > You really want to get into an argument about whether people should eat beef > at all? Because cattle are laying waste to large areas of land with their > grazing? Oh, the cattle are laying waste to large areas of land with their grazing? Good thing we kill them, then. And when they are already dead, we might as well eat them. And by the way, all this talk about coal power polluting the air and nuclear power being dangerous and hydropower not being enough... Can't everyone just use electricity instead? anders - http://anders.hultman.nu/ med dagens bild och allt!
Re: Trolls
>You can always tell a troll by the constant gush of messages. Whenever >anybody else responds to his thread, the troll must answer. He must have >the last word. I'm pulling up a stool. This could be good. Anyone want a beer? Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: Trolls
Hi Bob, I presume you are talking about me right? Just a couple of points. I have used a PC since Dos, and every encarnation since. I translated a large slice of it into Spanish, its my job, its what I do. I use Windows daily. I also, as of a year ago use OSX. I think you know my opinions on these pretty well by now so I wont repeat them. As to whether this is the right place for a discussion of the merits of one OS over another for digital photography I would rather let the subscribers decide that dont you think. Looking at the number of replies to the thread it looks as though it has been a topic of much interest around these parts. All the best to you, Antonio On 18 May 2004, at 22:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marnie, Think of it like this. Here we see a guy who floods us with messages on how bad Microsoft's operating system is. (He must have been writing email responses all his waking/non-working hours!) After a while, he mentions how he has none of this problems because he's an Apple user. This is one more frustrated Apple zealot who is trying to justify himself to us. Regardless of the technical merits, this list is not the place for that discussion. Regards, Bob S. Marnie aka Doe writes: A troll is someone who is deliberately being provocative to illicite responses because, basically, they don't have a life and a lot of feedback validates their existence. And, for whatever reason, trolls get validation mainly from negative feedback. (Yeah, just like a kid who "acts up" to get attention.)
Re: Trolls
Sorry man, but the problem isthis is the wrong parts. Norm Antonio Aparicio wrote: a topic of much interest around these parts.
Re: Trolls
Parts is parts... My wife has this friend, whose husband was somehow related to procuring beef for McDonalds. According to the story, he would travel around the country to cattle auctions and McD's would be the first to bid on the sub-par animals. They called it "cancer beef", and then... :) Tom C. From: Norm Baugher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:09:09 -0500 Sorry man, but the problem isthis is the wrong parts. Norm Antonio Aparicio wrote: a topic of much interest around these parts.
RE: Trolls
LOL! too funny... tan. -Original Message- From: Anders Hultman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 19 May 2004 5:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls On Tue, 18 May 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > You really want to get into an argument about whether people should eat beef > at all? Because cattle are laying waste to large areas of land with their > grazing? Oh, the cattle are laying waste to large areas of land with their grazing? Good thing we kill them, then. And when they are already dead, we might as well eat them. And by the way, all this talk about coal power polluting the air and nuclear power being dangerous and hydropower not being enough... Can't everyone just use electricity instead? anders - http://anders.hultman.nu/ med dagens bild och allt!
RE: Trolls
McD's would never do that...soy is way too healthy for them to do that. :) I haven't touched a fast food burger in years, thank you. > -Original Message- > From: Shawn K. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 1:44 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Trolls > > > I'm not a big beef fan really. I hear McDonalds burgers are > like 30% beef and the rest is soy. Anyone know if thats true?? > > -Shawn
Re: Trolls
No, horse meat. - Original Message - From: "Shawn K." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 1:43 PM Subject: RE: Trolls > I'm not a big beef fan really. I hear McDonalds burgers are like 30% beef > and the rest is soy. Anyone know if thats true?? > > -Shawn > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 2:40 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Trolls > > > In a message dated 5/18/2004 11:35:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Can't we talk about McDonalds and where they get their beef from? Please? > > > Tom C. > -- > You really want to get into an argument about whether people should eat beef > at all? Because cattle are laying waste to large areas of land with their > grazing? Land that could be used more productively for growing vegetables? > > Okay. ;-) > > Marnie aka Doe Who is not a vegetarian but knows some of their arguments. >
RE: Trolls
I just went to McDonalds this afternoon... Horse meat is good I must say. -Shawn -Original Message- From: Robert & Leigh Woerner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 4:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls No, horse meat. - Original Message - From: "Shawn K." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 1:43 PM Subject: RE: Trolls > I'm not a big beef fan really. I hear McDonalds burgers are like 30% beef > and the rest is soy. Anyone know if thats true?? > > -Shawn > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 2:40 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Trolls > > > In a message dated 5/18/2004 11:35:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Can't we talk about McDonalds and where they get their beef from? Please? > > > Tom C. > -- > You really want to get into an argument about whether people should eat beef > at all? Because cattle are laying waste to large areas of land with their > grazing? Land that could be used more productively for growing vegetables? > > Okay. ;-) > > Marnie aka Doe Who is not a vegetarian but knows some of their arguments. >
Re: Trolls
Relax, Antonio, you have just run into the "CENSORS", "I am not interested in that, so you can not discuss it". They completely ignore the fact that if no one was interested the thread would die. I have been fighting them for years. To be honest, sometimes, I like trolls better. Mostly though, except for their extreme self-centeredness, they are ok people. In this particular case however they have gone far beyond being jerks. They are the trolls here! Tell you what, why don't you tell us something about what Pentax equipment you use and your photographic interests? -- Antonio Aparicio wrote: Anders, thanks for the definition of troll "n. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, “Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll" Well certainly none of my posts were designed to illicit flames, nor did I post any specious arguments, make personal attacks nor intend to disrupt a discussion. If anything messages from Bob S and Co. would better fit that description. My opinions were clearly and perhaps strongly put, but that is how I feel about the matter. Windows OS, is in my very humble opinion a sub-standard OS. All the best to you and everyone else on this lively list. Antonio -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com/graywolf.html
Re: Trolls
Not in the US. They advertise all Beef if they got caught using fillers they'd face major trouble. (Actually according to published tests they use a better grade of beef than their competitors who make a bigger deal about it). Shawn K. wrote: I'm not a big beef fan really. I hear McDonalds burgers are like 30% beef and the rest is soy. Anyone know if thats true?? -Shawn -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 2:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls In a message dated 5/18/2004 11:35:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can't we talk about McDonalds and where they get their beef from? Please? Tom C. -- You really want to get into an argument about whether people should eat beef at all? Because cattle are laying waste to large areas of land with their grazing? Land that could be used more productively for growing vegetables? Okay. ;-) Marnie aka Doe Who is not a vegetarian but knows some of their arguments.
Re: Trolls
Shouldn't that be "I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain..." Tom C wrote: Marnie, I didn't make it to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian. :) Tom C. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:39:35 EDT In a message dated 5/18/2004 11:35:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can't we talk about McDonalds and where they get their beef from? Please? Tom C. -- You really want to get into an argument about whether people should eat beef at all? Because cattle are laying waste to large areas of land with their grazing? Land that could be used more productively for growing vegetables? Okay. ;-) Marnie aka Doe Who is not a vegetarian but knows some of their arguments.
Re: Trolls
Sam Adams please, (unless you've got something really interesting), pass the pretzels. Cotty wrote: You can always tell a troll by the constant gush of messages. Whenever anybody else responds to his thread, the troll must answer. He must have the last word. I'm pulling up a stool. This could be good. Anyone want a beer? Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: Trolls
Cotty wrote: Pint o' Watney's, please... Bleedin Watney's bleedin Red bleedin Barrel? Yer B.W. right! Eurgh. You got it Keith. Ta! Cheers, Cotty keith
Re: Trolls
We count them in, we count them out ;-) >392 messages in one day from PDML - I can´t handle it. Have to try another >list. >All the best! >Raimo K >> >You can always tell a troll by the constant gush of messages. Whenever >> >anybody else responds to his thread, the troll must answer. He must have >> >the last word. >> I'm pulling up a stool. This could be good. Anyone want a beer? >> Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: Trolls
>This is one more frustrated Apple zealot who is trying to justify himself >to us. There's always one in the (Watney's Red) barrel. ouch. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: Trolls
A couple of thoughts: First, not all arguments can be "won", if winning means convincing rivals that you're right, and they're wrong. A good arguer will know when to say "enough's enough, we'll just have to agree to disagree". Beyond that point, the merits of the argument become secondary, and the arguer is just really pissing everyone off. Second (and I learned this very very important lesson from Monty Python, so it must be true), an argument is not just a series of contradictions. No it's not, Yes it is. No it's not. See what I mean? cheers, frank ps: Who's Herbert Armstrong? Never heard of him... -ft "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: "Bob Blakely" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Trolls Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:27:56 -0700 EVERY great innovator, in all fields of endeavor, held "a minority view" and was "prepared to "argue it against more than one person and win the argument." Galileo, Gandhi, Herbert Armstrong, Martin Luther king, Copernicus. The converse, however, is not necessarily true. Regards, Bob... From: "Antonio Aparicio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Apparently it is someone who holds a minority view and is prepared to > argue it against more than one person and win the argument. _ MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: Trolls
I've never said no to a beer. Grab me one while you're in the kitchen, Cotty! -knarf "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'm pulling up a stool. This could be good. Anyone want a beer? Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ _ MSN Premium helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: Trolls
I don't trust this man... -frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Antonio Aparicio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cotty, I'll have a diet coke please. _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN Premium http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: Trolls
While fat German businessmen make pyramids by the pool? (that's 2 MP references in one night, and I'm not talking about the recent Leica re-issue...) -frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Bleedin Watney's bleedin Red bleedin Barrel? Eurgh. You got it Keith. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ _ Add photos to your messages with MSN Premium. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: Trolls
On May 18, 2004, at 6:59 PM, graywolf wrote: They completely ignore the fact that if no one was interested the thread would die. Exactly. Everyone wanted to contribute to the thread. But most didn't like what Antonio was saying. That made him the bad guy. Lets forget this whole mess and start over. Mr. Aparicio was only guilty of defending is position against overwhelming opposition. And he did a reasonably good job of it.
Re: Trolls
Sorry, Tom, That is most certainly not censorship. It's call voicing an opinion. Just as you did in your post, and I'm doing now. Censorship is when someone who has some amount of authority tells you what you can say or not say, and when you are to say (or not say) it. This is an unmoderated list. As such, there's only self-censorship. But surely, surely, that doesn't preclude one from saying, "Shut the up!" They're entitled to exercise their freedom of speech, as you are yours. cheers, frank ps: Don't mean to dump on you, but IMHO, the word censorship is bandied about far to freely, and often used quite improperly. "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Relax, Antonio, you have just run into the "CENSORS", "I am not interested in that, so you can not discuss it". They completely ignore the fact that if no one was interested the thread would die. I have been fighting them for years. To be honest, sometimes, I like trolls better. Mostly though, except for their extreme self-centeredness, they are ok people. In this particular case however they have gone far beyond being jerks. They are the trolls here! Tell you what, why don't you tell us something about what Pentax equipment you use and your photographic interests? _ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: Trolls
Thanks Greywolf. Yes, I was coming to the same conclusion myself. As a magazine editor I have a wide range of photographic interests, and obviously get to use a lot of different kit through work. Personally though I take mostly people and place photos (the people photos being mainly my 18 month old son at present!), and my favorite kit consists of a Spotmatic F, Super A, MX, with 28/3/5 50/1.4 and 85/1.8 lenses. Soon to be joined by a 105/2.8 purchased off the list. Antonio On 19 May 2004, at 00:59, graywolf wrote: Relax, Antonio, you have just run into the "CENSORS", "I am not interested in that, so you can not discuss it". They completely ignore the fact that if no one was interested the thread would die. I have been fighting them for years. To be honest, sometimes, I like trolls better. Mostly though, except for their extreme self-centeredness, they are ok people. In this particular case however they have gone far beyond being jerks. They are the trolls here! Tell you what, why don't you tell us something about what Pentax equipment you use and your photographic interests? -- Antonio Aparicio wrote: Anders, thanks for the definition of troll "n. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, “Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll" Well certainly none of my posts were designed to illicit flames, nor did I post any specious arguments, make personal attacks nor intend to disrupt a discussion. If anything messages from Bob S and Co. would better fit that description. My opinions were clearly and perhaps strongly put, but that is how I feel about the matter. Windows OS, is in my very humble opinion a sub-standard OS. All the best to you and everyone else on this lively list. Antonio -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com/graywolf.html
Re: Trolls
LOL. A. On 19 May 2004, at 04:18, frank theriault wrote: I don't trust this man... -frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Antonio Aparicio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cotty, I'll have a diet coke please. _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN Premium http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/ prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/ enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: Trolls
You are referring to official censorship. There are several other forms. When someone tells others they can not talk about something that is censorship. The only form I recognize as a generally good thing is choosing not to participate in a discussion you do not like. You and I can agree not to talk about something. That is not censorship, but as soon as we think we have the right to tell Cotty, for example, that he is not to talk about it either, we have stepped over that line. Even then some censorship is sometimes a good thing, most of us do not want people cussing and swearing around kids, for example. But telling someone to not talk about something because I don't want to hear it, especially when I have the choice of not listening is to me the worse kind of censorship. It is the "I am the only one in the world whose opinion matters", "I am better than you", "you are shit", type. "I'm OK, you are not OK". Those kind of people are the worst thing that ever happened to society, and unfortunately they have happened to society over and over and over again. We seem to never learn. We should fight them tooth and nail, day and night, and never let them push their ways into being. It is an unfortunate thing that even nice people can step across that line without thinking. If my diatribes about keep a few of them from doing it unintentionally, they the are worth the effort. Hell, if the just keep me from doing it, they are worth the effort. Why would you think we have the right to tell someone to "shut up" when we are in effect eavsedropping on their conversation? It is not like someone is forcing us to read a thread that we don't wish to. It is not like the neighbors yelling at the top of their voices in the middle of the night. And if it were, do we have a right to demand more than that they hold it down to where we can not hear it? I don't believe so. Yes, there are things that we pretty much do not talk about on this list like politics, religion, etc. But they have pretty much been decided by mutual agreement. And the way to deal with someone talking about those things is to send them a polite e-mail explaining that to them, not jumping publicly down their throat. In fact that is simply called courtesy. -- frank theriault wrote: Sorry, Tom, That is most certainly not censorship. It's call voicing an opinion. Just as you did in your post, and I'm doing now. Censorship is when someone who has some amount of authority tells you what you can say or not say, and when you are to say (or not say) it. This is an unmoderated list. As such, there's only self-censorship. But surely, surely, that doesn't preclude one from saying, "Shut the up!" They're entitled to exercise their freedom of speech, as you are yours. cheers, frank ps: Don't mean to dump on you, but IMHO, the word censorship is bandied about far to freely, and often used quite improperly. "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Relax, Antonio, you have just run into the "CENSORS", "I am not interested in that, so you can not discuss it". They completely ignore the fact that if no one was interested the thread would die. I have been fighting them for years. To be honest, sometimes, I like trolls better. Mostly though, except for their extreme self-centeredness, they are ok people. In this particular case however they have gone far beyond being jerks. They are the trolls here! Tell you what, why don't you tell us something about what Pentax equipment you use and your photographic interests? _ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com/graywolf.html
Re: Trolls
Spoken like a true lawyer. frank theriault wrote: Sorry, Tom, That is most certainly not censorship. It's call voicing an opinion. Just as you did in your post, and I'm doing now. Censorship is when someone who has some amount of authority tells you what you can say or not say, and when you are to say (or not say) it. This is an unmoderated list. As such, there's only self-censorship. But surely, surely, that doesn't preclude one from saying, "Shut the up!" They're entitled to exercise their freedom of speech, as you are yours. cheers, frank ps: Don't mean to dump on you, but IMHO, the word censorship is bandied about far to freely, and often used quite improperly. "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Relax, Antonio, you have just run into the "CENSORS", "I am not interested in that, so you can not discuss it". They completely ignore the fact that if no one was interested the thread would die. I have been fighting them for years. To be honest, sometimes, I like trolls better. Mostly though, except for their extreme self-centeredness, they are ok people. In this particular case however they have gone far beyond being jerks. They are the trolls here! Tell you what, why don't you tell us something about what Pentax equipment you use and your photographic interests? _ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: Trolls
I'm sorry Frank I take it back... Peter J. Alling wrote: Spoken like a true lawyer. frank theriault wrote: Sorry, Tom, That is most certainly not censorship. It's call voicing an opinion. Just as you did in your post, and I'm doing now. Censorship is when someone who has some amount of authority tells you what you can say or not say, and when you are to say (or not say) it. This is an unmoderated list. As such, there's only self-censorship. But surely, surely, that doesn't preclude one from saying, "Shut the up!" They're entitled to exercise their freedom of speech, as you are yours. cheers, frank ps: Don't mean to dump on you, but IMHO, the word censorship is bandied about far to freely, and often used quite improperly. "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Relax, Antonio, you have just run into the "CENSORS", "I am not interested in that, so you can not discuss it". They completely ignore the fact that if no one was interested the thread would die. I have been fighting them for years. To be honest, sometimes, I like trolls better. Mostly though, except for their extreme self-centeredness, they are ok people. In this particular case however they have gone far beyond being jerks. They are the trolls here! Tell you what, why don't you tell us something about what Pentax equipment you use and your photographic interests? _ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
RE: Trolls
To summarize, Graywolf is basically saying that the list has exerted too much negative peer pressure on our dear Antonio. -Shawn -Original Message- From: graywolf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 11:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls You are referring to official censorship. There are several other forms. When someone tells others they can not talk about something that is censorship. The only form I recognize as a generally good thing is choosing not to participate in a discussion you do not like. You and I can agree not to talk about something. That is not censorship, but as soon as we think we have the right to tell Cotty, for example, that he is not to talk about it either, we have stepped over that line. Even then some censorship is sometimes a good thing, most of us do not want people cussing and swearing around kids, for example. But telling someone to not talk about something because I don't want to hear it, especially when I have the choice of not listening is to me the worse kind of censorship. It is the "I am the only one in the world whose opinion matters", "I am better than you", "you are shit", type. "I'm OK, you are not OK". Those kind of people are the worst thing that ever happened to society, and unfortunately they have happened to society over and over and over again. We seem to never learn. We should fight them tooth and nail, day and night, and never let them push their ways into being. It is an unfortunate thing that even nice people can step across that line without thinking. If my diatribes about keep a few of them from doing it unintentionally, they the are worth the effort. Hell, if the just keep me from doing it, they are worth the effort. Why would you think we have the right to tell someone to "shut up" when we are in effect eavsedropping on their conversation? It is not like someone is forcing us to read a thread that we don't wish to. It is not like the neighbors yelling at the top of their voices in the middle of the night. And if it were, do we have a right to demand more than that they hold it down to where we can not hear it? I don't believe so. Yes, there are things that we pretty much do not talk about on this list like politics, religion, etc. But they have pretty much been decided by mutual agreement. And the way to deal with someone talking about those things is to send them a polite e-mail explaining that to them, not jumping publicly down their throat. In fact that is simply called courtesy. -- frank theriault wrote: > Sorry, Tom, > > That is most certainly not censorship. It's call voicing an opinion. > Just as you did in your post, and I'm doing now. > > Censorship is when someone who has some amount of authority tells you > what you can say or not say, and when you are to say (or not say) it. > > This is an unmoderated list. As such, there's only self-censorship. > > But surely, surely, that doesn't preclude one from saying, "Shut the > up!" They're entitled to exercise their freedom of speech, as you > are yours. > > cheers, > frank > > ps: Don't mean to dump on you, but IMHO, the word censorship is bandied > about far to freely, and often used quite improperly. > > "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The > pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer > > > > >> From: graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >> >> Relax, Antonio, you have just run into the "CENSORS", "I am not >> interested in that, so you can not discuss it". They completely ignore >> the fact that if no one was interested the thread would die. I have >> been fighting them for years. To be honest, sometimes, I like trolls >> better. Mostly though, except for their extreme self-centeredness, >> they are ok people. >> >> In this particular case however they have gone far beyond being jerks. >> They are the trolls here! >> >> Tell you what, why don't you tell us something about what Pentax >> equipment you use and your photographic interests? > > > _ > MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 > months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=htt p://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines > > > -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com/graywolf.html
Re: Trolls
Not good point. I have been a Windows user since the beginning and still am. A. On 19 May 2004, at 09:13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 5/18/2004 1:20:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is one more frustrated Apple zealot who is trying to justify himself to us. Regardless of the technical merits, this list is not the place for that discussion. Regards, Bob S. - Well, true, good point, about complaining without actually being a Windows user. But does that mean I get to b_tch more because I *do* use it? Hehehehe. Marnie aka Doe ;-)
Re: Trolls
Hi, yes just saw your reply that came to late for my reply ... thanks for the welcome. A. On 19 May 2004, at 09:20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 5/18/2004 8:12:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thanks Greywolf. Yes, I was coming to the same conclusion myself. As a magazine editor I have a wide range of photographic interests, and obviously get to use a lot of different kit through work. Personally though I take mostly people and place photos (the people photos being mainly my 18 month old son at present!), and my favorite kit consists of a Spotmatic F, Super A, MX, with 28/3/5 50/1.4 and 85/1.8 lenses. Soon to be joined by a 105/2.8 purchased off the list. Antonio - P.S. Yes, saw your post later that you do actually use you-know-what. So ignore my comment. (Besides, if you remember, I was basically in agreement.) Welcome to the PDML! Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's not. Marnie aka Doe :-) And sometimes it's fun even when it's not. Just stick your tongue firmly in your cheek and enjoy the show.
Re: Trolls
On 19/5/04, GRAYWLOF, discombobulated, offered: > That is not censorship, but as soon as we think we have the right to >tell Cotty, for example, that he is not to talk about it either, we have >stepped >over that line. Yeah well I didn't wann join in yer flamin discussion anyways!!! ;-) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
RE: Trolls
>To summarize, Graywolf is basically saying that the list has exerted too >much negative peer pressure on our dear Antonio. He came rampaging in like a bloody bull in a china shop. The gene pool always sorts itself out in the end. Heard of Gaia? Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: Trolls
Good question. I don't know who Herbert is or why it came out of my keyboard. Edwin Armstrong Inventor of FM modulation. http://www.oldradio.com/archives/people/armstrong.htm Regards, Bob... --- "No man's life, liberty or property is safe while the legislature is in session." -- Mark Twain From: "Norm Baugher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Who's Herbert Armstrong? > > Bob Blakely wrote: > > >EVERY great innovator, in all fields of endeavor, held "a minority view" and > >was "prepared to "argue it against more than one person and win the > >argument." Galileo, Gandhi, Herbert Armstrong, Martin Luther king, > >Copernicus. The converse, however, is not necessarily true.
Re: Trolls
Oh, he's an evangelistic believer/preacher, once tied up with the 7th Day Adventists in some way. I'd rather not say any more about him than that. Visit Google. They have a LOT of things to say about that man. Make up your own mind. keith whaley Bob Blakely wrote: Good question. I don't know who Herbert is or why it came out of my keyboard. Edwin Armstrong Inventor of FM modulation. http://www.oldradio.com/archives/people/armstrong.htm Regards, Bob...
Re: Trolls
I can only add pervert to the list Keith Whaley wrote: Oh, he's an evangelistic believer/preacher, once tied up with the 7th Day Adventists in some way. I'd rather not say any more about him than that. Visit Google. They have a LOT of things to say about that man. Make up your own mind. Bob Blakely wrote: Good question. I don't know who Herbert is or why it came out of my keyboard. Edwin Armstrong Inventor of FM modulation. http://www.oldradio.com/archives/people/armstrong.htm
Re: Trolls
Please don't start a discussion of that crackpot theory. There are so many more worthy of being beatin' to death first... Cotty wrote: To summarize, Graywolf is basically saying that the list has exerted too much negative peer pressure on our dear Antonio. He came rampaging in like a bloody bull in a china shop. The gene pool always sorts itself out in the end. Heard of Gaia? Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: Trolls
Lets hope there is a good selection of genes out there with all those viruses around. Antonio On 19 May 2004, at 18:24, Peter J. Alling wrote: Please don't start a discussion of that crackpot theory. There are so many more worthy of being beatin' to death first... Cotty wrote: To summarize, Graywolf is basically saying that the list has exerted too much negative peer pressure on our dear Antonio. He came rampaging in like a bloody bull in a china shop. The gene pool always sorts itself out in the end. Heard of Gaia? Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: Trolls
OMIGOD! Bob and I actually agree on something. Hooda thunkit. still shaking my head in amazement, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: "Bob Blakely" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Trolls Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:42:00 -0700 It's only censorship if the person demanding the restriction actually has the power to enforce it and does. Otherwise it's just someone making a request to desist, or (perhaps) some idiot demanding, "Shaddup." How you "feel" about the request or demand and whether you are angered, intimidated or amused is entirely your responsibility, as is any post you make in reply. _ MSN Premium helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: Trolls
>Please don't start a discussion of that crackpot theory. There are so >many more worthy of being beatin' to >death first... Well.. Yeah but, no but yeah but no but yeah but no but Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|www.macads.co.uk/snaps _
Re: Trolls
I think a lot of us rile a few feathers before we settle into PDML. I can remember posts of mine that did. Give Antonio some time. Paul Stenquist wrote: On May 18, 2004, at 6:59 PM, graywolf wrote: They completely ignore the fact that if no one was interested the thread would die. Exactly. Everyone wanted to contribute to the thread. But most didn't like what Antonio was saying. That made him the bad guy. Lets forget this whole mess and start over. Mr. Aparicio was only guilty of defending is position against overwhelming opposition. And he did a reasonably good job of it.
Re: Trolls
Hi! It doesn't work. Trolls are trolls, and always will be. The only remedy is to STOP RESPONDING TO THEM.I hereby resolve to do so. Please join me, everyone. It makes two of us, at least two . Boris
Re: Trolls
Me too. It's too hard to keep adding to my killfile. - Original Message - From: "Boris Liberman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 9:27 AM Subject: Re: Trolls > Hi! > > > It doesn't work. Trolls are trolls, and always will be. The only > >remedy is to STOP RESPONDING TO THEM.I hereby resolve to do so. > > Please join me, everyone. > > It makes two of us, at least two . > > Boris > >
Re: Trolls & how-to
Perhaps if Antonio showed enough respect to actually get the ~name right~ of the person he is responding to, folks around here might show him a bit of respect, too. Just to set the record straight, Frantisek wrote the intial post, not me. By referring to him as "Frank", I don't know if Antonio thought I was the initial author, or if he's just being "humourous" or simply rude or thoughtless in mis-naming Frantisek. regards, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls & how-to Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:09:31 -0400 Antonio, If you had been around longer you would know how wrong you are. There's no old boy network here. But there is a group of friends who have learned to treat each other with respect. We value that highly and do our best to convince others that it's the best way. Paul On Jun 13, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Antonio Aparicio wrote: Frank, withh respect If you killfield Shawn some time ago and have not followed the thread, you cannot realistically have any idea of what you are talking about. My view on all of this is that there seems to be some form of old boy network on this list, and if you disagree with one of the oldies you get attacked by the others. Things may have got out of hand, and I certainly do not condone hi-jacking peoples ID's, but I think that all those who have participated in the various exchanges need to take responsability for their role - to single out one individual and ban them just seems very wrong. Anyway, thats my .02 pence. Antonio On 14 Jun 2004, at 00:33, Frantisek Vlcek wrote: I have not been following the thread, having that individual killfiled already, long time ago. Thus I cannot much tell if the abuse reports are real, extreme or exagerrated even a little. I am seeing just the replies and his quoted text, somtimes. But if anybody feels there is net abuse going on, here is what you can do: 00) do not reply to the stupid messages. It just fuels the flame war. See "Godwin's law". Ignoring idiots is the best way to make them shut up. 0) contact the list owner. I do not know if anybody has been ever blacklisted from the PDML, as we were lucky we haven't got our share of trolls. 1) contact him personally. Just look on his website (strip the string before @ and add "www"), there is contact information. 2) complain to his ISP. You can use WHOIS to find out all sort of things about him. By this form of abuse, he is certainly breaching both his ISP and mailservice useragreements, by abusive behaviour on the net. He could get his account suspended for this. Just enter the domain name into the below form: One of the many online whois forms is here http://centralops.net/samples/AutoWhois.vbs.asp You can see his webhosting service, which might or might not provide his email address as well. And you can see the other contact mailaddress. I do not know which one he used to post to PDML. You can of course do the above points in any order deemed fit. There are members more knowledgable in using ways of the web than me who can correct me probably if I got something wrong here. fra _ MSN Premium helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: Trolls & how-to
Hi, Paul, Funny how the vast majority of those (in fact all but a small handful) who have joined this list since I started have been welcomed with open arms, and have managed to fit in beautifully with no problems. Those few that have ruffled feathers from the outset tend to blame "the list" and not look at their own behaviour as being the problem. cheers, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls & how-to Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:09:31 -0400 Antonio, If you had been around longer you would know how wrong you are. There's no old boy network here. But there is a group of friends who have learned to treat each other with respect. We value that highly and do our best to convince others that it's the best way. Paul _ MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
RE: Trolls & how-to
Of course it was a rude, thoughtless act designed solely to ruffle feathers and create a stir. I mean clearly, this is the case, it was not simply a mistake on the part of the author, no way, no how. Simply not the case at all. In fact, you can clearly see in the following example that the two names "Frantisek", and "Frank", bear absolutely no similarities, this is true despite the fact that these name are actually feminine and masculine forms of each other... DESPITE that, it is clear they bear no resemblance, physically, or in terms of pronunciation. The chances of miss-writing one as the other are slim to none, bordering on infinitesimally small, tiny, percentages well below 1, and in fact quite close to 0. Hence I presume that no way on this earth did our dear fellow Antonio make a simple mistake of language, in fact, this is quite clearly a rip on BOTH Frank AND Frantisek, as it seeks to call Frantisek a man, and Frank a woman, a scenario that is wholly untrue, being without proof or basis in reality... In conclusion, I must support Frank in his assertions, however, I must stress, that the previous paragraph written by my, was largely tongue in cheek, and hence open to the interpretations that implies... -That Guy -Original Message- From: frank theriault [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 10:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls & how-to Perhaps if Antonio showed enough respect to actually get the ~name right~ of the person he is responding to, folks around here might show him a bit of respect, too. Just to set the record straight, Frantisek wrote the intial post, not me. By referring to him as "Frank", I don't know if Antonio thought I was the initial author, or if he's just being "humourous" or simply rude or thoughtless in mis-naming Frantisek. regards, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer >From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: Trolls & how-to >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:09:31 -0400 > >Antonio, >If you had been around longer you would know how wrong you are. There's no >old boy network here. But there is a group of friends who have learned to >treat each other with respect. We value that highly and do our best to >convince others that it's the best way. >Paul > > >On Jun 13, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Antonio Aparicio wrote: > >>Frank, withh respect If you killfield Shawn some time ago and have not >>followed the thread, you cannot realistically have any idea of what you >>are talking about. >> >>My view on all of this is that there seems to be some form of old boy >>network on this list, and if you disagree with one of the oldies you get >>attacked by the others. Things may have got out of hand, and I certainly >>do not condone hi-jacking peoples ID's, but I think that all those who >>have participated in the various exchanges need to take responsability for >>their role - to single out one individual and ban them just seems very >>wrong. Anyway, thats my .02 pence. >> >>Antonio >> >>On 14 Jun 2004, at 00:33, Frantisek Vlcek wrote: >> >>>I have not been following the thread, having that individual killfiled >>>already, long time ago. Thus I cannot much tell if the abuse reports are >>>real, extreme or exagerrated even a little. I am seeing just the >>>replies and his quoted text, somtimes. >>> >>>But if anybody feels there is net abuse going on, here is what you can >>>do: >>> >>>00) do not reply to the stupid messages. It just fuels the flame war. >>>See "Godwin's law". Ignoring idiots is the best way to make them shut >>>up. >>> >>>0) contact the list owner. I do not know if anybody has been ever >>>blacklisted from the PDML, as we were lucky we haven't got our share >>>of trolls. >>> >>>1) contact him personally. Just look on his website (strip the string >>>before @ and add "www"), there is contact information. >>> >>>2) complain to his ISP. You can use WHOIS to find out all sort of >>>things about him. By this form of abuse, he is certainly breaching >>>both his ISP and mailservice useragreements, by abusive behaviour on >>>the net. He could get his account suspended for this. >>> >>>Just enter the domain name into the below form: >>> >>>One of the many online whois forms is here >>>http://centralops.net/samples/AutoWhois.vbs.asp >>> >>>You can see his webhosting
Re: Trolls & how-to
Hi! My reply in between the lines. FV> But if anybody feels there is net abuse going on, here is what you can FV> do: FV> 00) do not reply to the stupid messages. It just fuels the flame war. FV> See "Godwin's law". Ignoring idiots is the best way to make them shut FV> up. Oh yes, that's for sure. FV> 0) contact the list owner. I do not know if anybody has been ever FV> blacklisted from the PDML, as we were lucky we haven't got our share FV> of trolls. Honestly, such idea never occurred to me. FV> 1) contact him personally. Just look on his website (strip the string FV> before @ and add "www"), there is contact information. Did it few times on various occasions. FV> 2) complain to his ISP. You can use WHOIS to find out all sort of FV> things about him. By this form of abuse, he is certainly breaching FV> both his ISP and mailservice useragreements, by abusive behaviour on FV> the net. He could get his account suspended for this. Fascinating idea as well. Seriously. FV> Just enter the domain name into the below form: FV> One of the many online whois forms is here FV> http://centralops.net/samples/AutoWhois.vbs.asp FV> You can see his webhosting service, which might or might not provide FV> his email address as well. And you can see the other contact FV> mailaddress. I do not know which one he used to post to PDML. FV> You can of course do the above points in any order deemed fit. Will surely save this message for further reference. On the side note. I spent some time thinking of most recent accidents. I really think they were accidents. Here what I think would be correct about this list or any other such list: 1. We may have different opinions but we have to live with that fact. 2. There is very little chance that I can convince the other person of my opinion and vice versa. So, I say A, you say B. I may want to ask you why B? And you may want to ask me why A? So we talk a little about these A and B. That's it. I may learn something in the process. You too. The mere fact that B exists can already be worth my while. Same for you and A. So why get to name calling? Why id theft? Why all this? It is not amusing. It is just stupid. Well, seems like my rant is off. P.S. Frantisek, obviously I am not turning to you in person. Boris ([EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED])
RE: Trolls & how-to
freakin' heck! some people have too much time on their hands... get a life man... tan. -Original Message- From: That Guy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 14 June 2004 11:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Trolls & how-to Of course it was a rude, thoughtless act designed solely to ruffle feathers and create a stir. I mean clearly, this is the case, it was not simply a mistake on the part of the author, no way, no how. Simply not the case at all. In fact, you can clearly see in the following example that the two names "Frantisek", and "Frank", bear absolutely no similarities, this is true despite the fact that these name are actually feminine and masculine forms of each other... DESPITE that, it is clear they bear no resemblance, physically, or in terms of pronunciation. The chances of miss-writing one as the other are slim to none, bordering on infinitesimally small, tiny, percentages well below 1, and in fact quite close to 0. Hence I presume that no way on this earth did our dear fellow Antonio make a simple mistake of language, in fact, this is quite clearly a rip on BOTH Frank AND Frantisek, as it seeks to call Frantisek a man, and Frank a woman, a scenario that is wholly untrue, being without proof or basis in reality... In conclusion, I must support Frank in his assertions, however, I must stress, that the previous paragraph written by my, was largely tongue in cheek, and hence open to the interpretations that implies... -That Guy -Original Message- From: frank theriault [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 10:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls & how-to Perhaps if Antonio showed enough respect to actually get the ~name right~ of the person he is responding to, folks around here might show him a bit of respect, too. Just to set the record straight, Frantisek wrote the intial post, not me. By referring to him as "Frank", I don't know if Antonio thought I was the initial author, or if he's just being "humourous" or simply rude or thoughtless in mis-naming Frantisek. regards, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer >From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: Trolls & how-to >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:09:31 -0400 > >Antonio, >If you had been around longer you would know how wrong you are. There's no >old boy network here. But there is a group of friends who have learned to >treat each other with respect. We value that highly and do our best to >convince others that it's the best way. >Paul > > >On Jun 13, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Antonio Aparicio wrote: > >>Frank, withh respect If you killfield Shawn some time ago and have not >>followed the thread, you cannot realistically have any idea of what you >>are talking about. >> >>My view on all of this is that there seems to be some form of old boy >>network on this list, and if you disagree with one of the oldies you get >>attacked by the others. Things may have got out of hand, and I certainly >>do not condone hi-jacking peoples ID's, but I think that all those who >>have participated in the various exchanges need to take responsability for >>their role - to single out one individual and ban them just seems very >>wrong. Anyway, thats my .02 pence. >> >>Antonio >> >>On 14 Jun 2004, at 00:33, Frantisek Vlcek wrote: >> >>>I have not been following the thread, having that individual killfiled >>>already, long time ago. Thus I cannot much tell if the abuse reports are >>>real, extreme or exagerrated even a little. I am seeing just the >>>replies and his quoted text, somtimes. >>> >>>But if anybody feels there is net abuse going on, here is what you can >>>do: >>> >>>00) do not reply to the stupid messages. It just fuels the flame war. >>>See "Godwin's law". Ignoring idiots is the best way to make them shut >>>up. >>> >>>0) contact the list owner. I do not know if anybody has been ever >>>blacklisted from the PDML, as we were lucky we haven't got our share >>>of trolls. >>> >>>1) contact him personally. Just look on his website (strip the string >>>before @ and add "www"), there is contact information. >>> >>>2) complain to his ISP. You can use WHOIS to find out all sort of >>>things about him. By this form of abuse, he is certainly breaching >>>both his ISP and mailservice useragreements, by abusive behaviour on >>>the net. He could get his account suspended for thi
Re: Trolls & how-to
- Original Message - From: "Frantisek Vlcek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Trolls & how-to (snip) > > 2) complain to his ISP. You can use WHOIS to find out all sort of > things about him. By this form of abuse, he is certainly breaching > both his ISP and mailservice useragreements, by abusive behaviour on > the net. He could get his account suspended for this. > (snip) Frantisek, Having been down that road myself, I can report that it's a flawed concept. Why? Because to the abuser's ISP the victim (you or I) is an outsider with whom they have no profitable arrangement. OTOH the abuser, their client, is a source of income whom they have no desire to cast off, regardless of ethics. As well, exchanges on a forum, even if it is an email list rather than web based, are considered by them to be outlaw territory and they are reluctant to police their own terms of service (TOS) for breaches on a forum. Private exchanges are a different matter, but it is still difficult to persuade an ISP to TOS its own client. regards, Anthony Farr
Re: Trolls & how-to
On Monday 14 June 2004 04:32, frank theriault wrote: FJW> Those few that have ruffled feathers from the outset tend to blame "the FJW> list" and not look at their own behaviour as being the problem. FJW> FJW> cheers, FJW> frank My son also blames everything on other people as well. But he is still 15, that goes with his age, so I assume he will get over that (with some help of his parents). -- Frits WÃthrich
Re: Trolls & how-to
Hey Frank, I thought you had killfiled me but I see you are still writing me comments? I dont think I have ever blamed the "list" for the abuse that you and a few others have been spurting out these past few weeks. The vast majority of the list is perfectly OK, and I have found many of its members both supportive and understanding. Antonio On 14 Jun 2004, at 04:32, frank theriault wrote: Hi, Paul, Funny how the vast majority of those (in fact all but a small handful) who have joined this list since I started have been welcomed with open arms, and have managed to fit in beautifully with no problems. Those few that have ruffled feathers from the outset tend to blame "the list" and not look at their own behaviour as being the problem. cheers, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls & how-to Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:09:31 -0400 Antonio, If you had been around longer you would know how wrong you are. There's no old boy network here. But there is a group of friends who have learned to treat each other with respect. We value that highly and do our best to convince others that it's the best way. Paul _ MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/ prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/ enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: Trolls & how-to
Apologies Frantisek. Your sig read "fra", which I presumed had been cut short and that your name was Frank. My mistake. Antonio On 14 Jun 2004, at 04:29, frank theriault wrote: Perhaps if Antonio showed enough respect to actually get the ~name right~ of the person he is responding to, folks around here might show him a bit of respect, too. Just to set the record straight, Frantisek wrote the intial post, not me. By referring to him as "Frank", I don't know if Antonio thought I was the initial author, or if he's just being "humourous" or simply rude or thoughtless in mis-naming Frantisek. regards, frank "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Trolls & how-to Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:09:31 -0400 Antonio, If you had been around longer you would know how wrong you are. There's no old boy network here. But there is a group of friends who have learned to treat each other with respect. We value that highly and do our best to convince others that it's the best way. Paul On Jun 13, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Antonio Aparicio wrote: Frank, withh respect If you killfield Shawn some time ago and have not followed the thread, you cannot realistically have any idea of what you are talking about. My view on all of this is that there seems to be some form of old boy network on this list, and if you disagree with one of the oldies you get attacked by the others. Things may have got out of hand, and I certainly do not condone hi-jacking peoples ID's, but I think that all those who have participated in the various exchanges need to take responsability for their role - to single out one individual and ban them just seems very wrong. Anyway, thats my .02 pence. Antonio On 14 Jun 2004, at 00:33, Frantisek Vlcek wrote: I have not been following the thread, having that individual killfiled already, long time ago. Thus I cannot much tell if the abuse reports are real, extreme or exagerrated even a little. I am seeing just the replies and his quoted text, somtimes. But if anybody feels there is net abuse going on, here is what you can do: 00) do not reply to the stupid messages. It just fuels the flame war. See "Godwin's law". Ignoring idiots is the best way to make them shut up. 0) contact the list owner. I do not know if anybody has been ever blacklisted from the PDML, as we were lucky we haven't got our share of trolls. 1) contact him personally. Just look on his website (strip the string before @ and add "www"), there is contact information. 2) complain to his ISP. You can use WHOIS to find out all sort of things about him. By this form of abuse, he is certainly breaching both his ISP and mailservice useragreements, by abusive behaviour on the net. He could get his account suspended for this. Just enter the domain name into the below form: One of the many online whois forms is here http://centralops.net/samples/AutoWhois.vbs.asp You can see his webhosting service, which might or might not provide his email address as well. And you can see the other contact mailaddress. I do not know which one he used to post to PDML. You can of course do the above points in any order deemed fit. There are members more knowledgable in using ways of the web than me who can correct me probably if I got something wrong here. fra _ MSN Premium helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/ prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/ enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines
Re: Trolls, the list and linguistics (Was: Moving on!)
Lasse Karlsson wrote: From: "Daniel J. Matyola": Bruce is a troll, Lasse. You are right, Daniel. No, he ain't. Look at his self-portrait: http://pug.komkon.org/00july/JulyOO/4th_july_1999.html cheers, caveman
Re: Trolls, the list and linguistics (Was: Moving on!)
Lasse: There are two ways to respond to people, like BR, who make offensive remarks on this list: 1. Ignore them 2. Tell them that you do not condone such rude behavior, and request that they stop. You did neither. Instead, you countered with a rude remark of your own, about BR's nationality (and mine). That is as bad -- or at least almost as bad -- as the conduct you claim to deplore. I read you explanation of your remark, and it does not convince me that the remark was not rude and intended to reflect badly on Americans in general. I think that you were (rightly) upset by BR's remark , and responded in anger. While that may be understandable, it still has no place on this list. I spent 2 weeks in Denmark, Norway and Sweden last year, and I enjoyed both the scenery and the people I met very much. I had expected better of you, I guess. Dan.
Re: Trolls, the list and linguistics (Was: Moving on!)
Dan, I added that individual to my shit list a couple of weeks ago. Its the easiest way to deal with the problem. Don ___ Dr E D F Williams http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams Author's Web Site and Photo Gallery Updated: March 30, 2002 clipped all ..
Re: Trolls, the list and linguistics (Was: Moving on!)
All nationalities have great men and women, and all nationalities at times do bad things. The Hungarians oppressed my Slovak and Rusyn ancestors for a thousand years, but that is in the past, and we all have to get along. Everyone should be proud of his or her heritage, but none of us should gratuitously malign any other nationality or culture. Especially on an international Pentax photography list. Levente -Levi- Littvay wrote: > Now please, start bashing Hungarians! I really feel left out.
