RE: Tweedy @ Salon, Kelly Willis
At 1:40 PM -0500 on 3/17/99, Matt Benz wrote: I'm also kinda disappointed with Kelly Willis' release. I guess I was hoping for something more along the lines of "Kelly Willis," a harder country sound. This is too ...erm.americana for my tastes, at least some of it. Still, it is her voice, so I'll live and still play it. Saw an old video of heres from the "Bang Bang" days in which she fully participates in one of them modern country videos. Yowza. Yeah. I bought it because it was $9 at Borders -- if you're going to patronize evil places, at least don't give 'em much -- and it struck me as a $9 record. Not that good, not that bad. I'm looking forward to seeing her in a couple of weeks, but I doubt the CD will go into any sort of rotation here. Maybe it'll grow on me... but probably not. And I damn near needed a crowbar to get it out of the damn plastic case. The reason those Rykodisc tines break is that they aren't made to move when you take out the CD. np - Bruce Robison, Wrapped, and maybe he should've had more influence on her CD, since this one's mighty fine... Bob
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
At 12:40 PM -0500 on 3/17/99, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Case in point: Last night I went to see a free gig in town by the V-Roys, who I thought were a great bar band, though they were batting about .500 on decent songs. But the crowd was a really roadhouse-country-rock-lovin' bunch, who wanted their roots as loud and straight-up and danceable as possible. Nothing wrong with that, of course. Since we don't get much of the V-Roys brand of twang this far north, I haven't seen a gathering like that at most shows here, and it was fun. But I was very doubtful about how eclectic that audience's tastes probably were. But, Carl, aren't you extrapolating from an admittedly anomalous situation? I have yet to see the V-Roys (I really wish I'd caught them a week or two ago; I got my dates mixed up) but I do like their CDs. Anyway, this is all thinking out loud here, but it sounds like there are two anomalies here: A twang band comes to town, and it has to meet the needs of a crowd that gets very little of that kind of music. Maybe they batted .500 because they had to bend a little to satisfy that crowd. And maybe the crowd wanted their roots loud, straight-up, and danceable because few bands like that come up that way, and if the V-Roys were there, it was more important to the crowd to get what it needed than to get what the V-Roys are best at doing. And maybe that crowd went home and the next day listened to Pet Sounds and Thriller and Minnie the Moocher and The Planets and Viva Terlingua. Maybe they just don't have the screaming need we do to talk about our eclecticism. You're probably closer than I am, of course, Carl, but I've seen that sort of situation back in Boston, including the audience members who didn't know much about the band but who knew what the band could do for 'em. Sometimes it worked out; sometimes it didn't... Bob
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
At 1:36 PM -0500 on 3/17/99, Dave Purcell wrote: Wilco, on the other hand, would get killed at a biker bar. Too bad they're too big to play 'em these days. g Bob
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
Bob re: V-Roys in Toronto: it has to meet the needs of a crowd that gets very little of that kind of music. Maybe they batted .500 because they had to bend a little to satisfy that crowd. And maybe the crowd wanted their roots loud, straight-up, and danceable because few bands like that come up that way... maybe that crowd went home and the next day listened to Pet Sounds and Thriller and Minnie the Moocher and The Planets and Viva Terlingua. Maybe they just don't have the screaming need we do to talk about our eclecticism. No, Bob, actually we get a fair (tho not huge) portion of twang here, tho not as much as most equiv. US cities and much less that's as hard-rock-twang as the V-Roys are. The main thing was that this audience seemed noticeably different than the one that shows up to see other alt-countryish stuff here. Your second point however is well-taken - in other words, how the hell did I know? You do get a sense in a room, but it coulda been a for-the-occasion thing. A lot of the crowd definitely knew the band's material. It was just that they felt like an unfamiliar crowd, with a stamp of its own, compared to many shows in Toronto and at the Horseshoe, and seemed to have more conservative tastes than one encounters on a typical day on P2. Half-guilty, half-proud, copping a plea as a Screaming Eclecticist... Carl W.
Tweedy @ Salon
From a Salon interview with Jeff Tweedy. Joshua Green is the writer. Who is he and why is he such a dick? Q: I was thinking specifically of the No Depression purists who are kind of militantly pro-twang, you know what I mean? A: I really have no concern for them. It's great that they have plenty of music to like. I think it's interesting that they still talk about us. It's like something for them to talk about that this band continues to let them down. I think there are a certain group of people that are really purist about it, but somehow they can't find it in their hearts to just let us alone and get on with their lives. Militantly pro-Scorcher, Dave *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
Given the recent traffic here and especially on P1, I'd say the man has a valid point. rebecca, who is still unsure if she likes "Summerteeth" -Original Message- From: Dave Purcell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] From a Salon interview with Jeff Tweedy. Joshua Green is the writer. Who is he and why is he such a dick? Q: I was thinking specifically of the No Depression purists who are kind of militantly pro-twang, you know what I mean? A: I really have no concern for them. It's great that they have plenty of music to like. I think it's interesting that they still talk about us. It's like something for them to talk about that this band continues to let them down. I think there are a certain group of people that are really purist about it, but somehow they can't find it in their hearts to just let us alone and get on with their lives. Militantly pro-Scorcher, Dave *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:34:32 -0500 Dave "Man the Barricades" Purcell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From a Salon interview with Jeff Tweedy. Joshua Green is the writer. Who is he and why is he such a dick? Q: I was thinking specifically of the No Depression purists who are kind of militantly pro-twang, you know what I mean? You know, I just read this interview and I'm with Dave. What's the deal here? Since when did this "No Depression purists" tag start appearing? Just who exactly is this guy referring to? He doesn't say. Out of the 700 people on this list, I doubt that anyone really fits the bill here. Is he referring to Postcard? I haven't been over to that side in years, so I really don't know what the discussion is like over there these days. I've started to see this "purists" theme more and more lately and wonder if it's backlash-driven. PS -- Be sure to check out Keith Knight's hilarious cartoon on SXSW on the same Salon site. William, who once walked out of a Scorchers show, much to Dave's dismay when I fessed up to it. William Cocke Senior Writer HSC Development University of Virginia (804) 924-8432
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
Militantly pro-Jeff Rebecca writes: Given the recent traffic here and especially on P1, I'd say the man has a valid point. Dunno about Postcard, but given that everything from Coltrane to Blue Oyster Cult comes up here on a regular basis, I think one would be hard-pressed to describe P2 as a list of No Depression purists. It's ironic that Tweedy gets annoyed with the "Wilco is an alt.country band" cliche, but seems perfectly willing to play along with the "No Depression purists" stereotype. Perhaps he should consider that some people, such as myself, just don't like his music, and its twang quotient is beside the point. Militantly pro-Wildcat, Dave *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
Dave: Dunno about Postcard, but given that everything from Coltrane to Blue Oyster Cult comes up here on a regular basis, I think one would be hard-pressed to describe P2 as a list of No Depression purists. Indeed. Perhaps the demographic description should be changed to "free-range country lovin' eclectics". Sure has a snappy ring to it... --junior
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
From a Salon interview with Jeff Tweedy. Joshua Green is the writer. Who is he and why is he such a dick? Q: I was thinking specifically of the No Depression purists who are kind of militantly pro-twang, you know what I mean? A: I really have no concern for them. It's great that they have plenty of music to like. I think it's interesting that they still talk about us. It's like something for them to talk about that this band continues to let them down. I think there are a certain group of people that are really purist about it, but somehow they can't find it in their hearts to just let us alone and get on with their lives. Militantly pro-Scorcher, Dave Do these writers all hang out together? The whole "escape from alt.country" thing is getting as used-up as the "phoenix rising from the ashes of Uncle Tupelo" lines... To wit, Joel Reese's take on Joe Henry: "It's not that Henry shouldn't be applauded for pushing his own musical envelope on "Fuse." There's nothing wrong with moving on from the confining alt.country scene. This movement is known for its zealous fans, quick to accuse a band of selling out if it doesn't meet their exacting purist standards. (Just ask The Jayhawks and * Wilco, which have both evolved from their country-rock roots.)" Zealous, accusatory and exacting, TL (BTW, I loved this quote from Henry: "People have a tendency to treat an acoustic guitar like it's the basket that floated the infant Moses down the river," he says. "There's nothing pure or natural about any of this, I don't care who you are. This idea that doing things with acoustic instruments is somehow more pure and more real - I don't have any interest in that as a notion.")
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
At 09:12 AM 3/17/99 +, you wrote: Dave: Dunno about Postcard, but given that everything from Coltrane to Blue Oyster Cult comes up here on a regular basis, I think one would be hard-pressed to describe P2 as a list of No Depression purists. Indeed. Perhaps the demographic description should be changed to "free-range country lovin' eclectics". Sure has a snappy ring to it... --junior Damn straight Dave! Purist shmurist! Junior- I believe you have found THE description for said demograhic... I myself am going out and getting business cards done. g morgan "what's so funny about peas, loam, and underplanning?" (referring to my very ungreen thumb)
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
I get the feeling this entire journalistic discourse is part of larger marketing and publicity calculations. When these people could secure a niche identity for themselves as "altcountry," they did. Now that they've consolidated at that level and seek poprock market visibility wider than that allowed by the niche label, they busy themsevles with "evolving" beyond a caricatural version of altcountry. When they wanted to be covered in ND, they were "altcountry." Now that they want to get covered in Rolling Stone and Spin and gain access to the much larger market demographics they represent, they're "evolving." That's fine, I just wish they didn't feel compelled to misrepresent their original audience in such reductive ways But yeah, as Todd and Dave remarked, it sure seems to be a trend and the journalistic cliche of the season. --junior
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
What's his beef? He did the Mermaid Ave music in a roosty vein (never have I heard a band try so hard to sound like the Basement Tapes, BTW), so it's not like a huge stretch for folks to expect him and WIlco to still produce ND related music, when his last project *was* so NDish. Now he has a big ELO pop music spectacular, which is fine, but for him to express bewilderment that folks are surprised and maybe not thrilled with such sudden musical changes is funny. It is a radical jump from one album to the next. People who like the Neil Young sound don't rush out and embrace his rockabilly big band techno albums either. People like consistancy. Not everyone is so embracing of the wide range of pop and rock stylings that a artist may feel like playing. Not everyone is so well rounded as some of the folks on p2. No big deal, just the way it is. Interesting to note Joe Henry is also going thru this stage. I don't care what he puts out, I don't think he's betraying anything by changing sounds, I just get tired of him and the "purists" whoever and where ever they are-talking about it.
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
Joel Reese's take on Joe Henry: This movement is known for its zealous fans, quick to accuse a band of selling out if it doesn't meet their exacting purist standards. (Just ask The Jayhawks and Wilco, which have both evolved from their country-rock roots.)" Don't you actually have to sell records to sell out? Lance . . .
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Matt Benz wrote: with such sudden musical changes is funny. It is a radical jump from one album to the next. People who like the Neil Young sound don't rush out and embrace his rockabilly big band techno albums either. People like consistancy. Not everyone is so embracing of the wide range of pop and rock stylings that a artist may feel like playing. Not everyone is so well rounded as some of the folks on p2. No big deal, just the way it Ah ah buster.not so fast. I followed Neil Young through all of his iterations and really, enjoyed all of them, including _Trans_. I despise consistancy. Probably another reason I liked Dave Edmunds' Jeff Lynne phaseit just sounded different. "Different is good", remember the ad? Sigh..you are probably right Matt. People want a constant sound/feel. I don't think _Nebraska_ or _Tom Joad_ did any wonders for Springsteen's popularity. I doubt _Sweethearts of the Rodeo_ added a multitude of fans to the Byrd's popularity. The last Sam Phillips and Maria McKee albums ripped away popularity and in McKee's case, cost her a contract. Tweedy's comments are also reminding me of the statements that Emmylou made trying to *defend* her Lanois produced _Wrecking Ball_ album. Dammit, sometime the artists just want to stretch and critics fans alike have to find something, anything worth bitching about. I'm finding Tweedy's transformation equally fascinating as Neil Young's although I totally agree with your point regarding alienating fans. He's just feeling so frigging defensive about being asked about his changing musical direction particularly in the face of his "deified" musical past. That's a bit annoying to say the least. I wish he'd relax and just say, that's he's exploring directions that he's always wanted to go down. You know what else I really do believe, although I'll be nice and not attribute this to be his main motivehe's moving his material closer and closer to stuff that could attain commercial acceptabiltiy and viability. I'l just say that he's follwing his heart and following that ELO jones that I've also harbored all of these years g. Jerry NP: Wilco - Summerteeth My opinion: It's so interesting with the synthesizers and layered sounds, wonderful record sonically. Again, I think the writing is really flat and uninteresting. This seems to be a problem w/ Wilco for many P2'ers. I also find the violence a bit disturbing. Again however, I love the sound of this release.
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
Michael J. Cempa wrote: I don't think Tweedy "sold out," he just made a record he wanted to make. If you don't like it, that's fine, but anyone who thinks Tweedy has some moral, musical or any other kind of responsibilty to alt.country is being close-minded. Exactly. That's what alt.country fans are being accused of though, and...well, the writers are just wrong. I never once accused Tweedy of selling out, I just think he's a mediocre songwriter. Dave *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
I don't know about other bands, but I think it's somewhat understandable that Tweedy (and that other guy, what's his name again? g) might be a little bit defensive about the "alt-country" tag. Because lookit, a bunch of fans of his old band started up an AOL folder, named after a song covered by his old band, which became the inspiration for a magazine, also named for the song covered by his old band (and the folder), which furthermore focuses (especially in the early issues) in a Capital-F Faanish way on his old band, and which contributes in no small way towards the genre or movement (which is also sometimes called by the same name as the song and the AOL Folder) being particularly defined as inspired by his old band. None of which he had anything to do with, or even, apparently, much interest in. I've always thought the way No Depression (the zine) looked up to UT, and their obvious expectations for its two offshoot bands, was just begging for -- okay not disaster, but mild embarrassment at least. And it seems to me that ever since the zine went out on that limb, Tweedy has been industriously sawing away at the base of it. As for the rock critics now turning up their pointy damp noses at "alt-country" as purism/confining/etc., this is a perfect example of the way the popular music press is short-sighted, trend-obsessed, arrogant -- and powerful. Because these guys actually *believe* they lead trends rather than follow, they in effect *do*. They kill the thing because they say it's dead. Not that alternative country will die -- but when these critics clamp the lid down on the possibility of serious consideration of it, it sure makes it hard to grow out there in the wider world of popular music. But -- more on this later; I'm working it into an essay (essays?) about alt-country between time and Timbuktu, generations, the so-called Boomer canon, and stuff I'm shit sick of. Hey. Work is slow, and life is good. --Cheryl Cline
RE: Tweedy @ Salon, Kelly Willis
[Matt Benz] Well, in many ways, I identify with Tweedy, since I grew up with much the same musical influences, I suspect, and hell, I jump around myself musically. But then, no one asks me about that, nor do I have an adoring audience following my every move. Well, I do, but a court order should take care of that problem. Anyhoo, what I mean to say is I understand what he wants to do musically, and again, I'm not one of them ND purists. But like Purcell, I haven't really got into Wilco that much. Not sure why, but it isn't cause of betrayal or anything. Just don'tlike it...much. I'm also kinda disappointed with Kelly Willis' release. I guess I was hoping for something more along the lines of "Kelly Willis," a harder country sound. This is too ...erm.americana for my tastes, at least some of it. Still, it is her voice, so I'll live and still play it. Saw an old video of heres from the "Bang Bang" days in which she fully participates in one of them modern country videos. Yowza.
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
I thought the Joel Reese quote in re Joe Henry that Todd Larson posted: There's nothing wrong with moving on from the confining alt.country scene. This movement is known for its zealous fans, quick to accuse a band of selling out if it doesn't meet their exacting purist standards. (Just ask The Jayhawks and Wilco, which have both evolved from their country-rock roots.)" was more disturbing than Tweedy's comments (after all, Tweedy does say "If it's something they don't like then I don't expect them to buy it"; it's his complaint that the "purists" are talking about how they don't like it because it's not "pure" that's off-the-wall). "Selling out" is, in my opinion, a fairly serious charge to make, and I don't believe I have *ever* seen Wilco or The Jayhawks characterized that way here or in ND; Carl's point about the limited value of P2/ND as representative of the "No Depression movement" is valid, but even so, one would think that just about any view that's at all widely held in said "movement" would find some reflection in one or both of those places. I'm inclined to think of these things as analogous to the way that McCarthy era ex-lefties were required to get themselves out of trouble by denouncing their former associations; ex-twangers seeking to move into the mainstream (not that there's anything wrong with that per se) are supposed to demonstrate their sincere interest in it by dismissing their earlier fans and critical supporters as unable to discern the virtues of Real - i.e., pop/rock - Art. That idea at least accounts for the persistence pop/rock writers seem to exhibit in pursuing the matter. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
I have a mixed reaction to this - clearly the current backlash (which I think has been accelerated by PazznJop and a couple of other instances of high-profile folk like Christgau calling alt-country "confining") is largely crap, and another case of Moronic Media Meme syndrome. And Tweedy has shown, for a long time, a puzzling inability to resist whining about how misunderstood he is. *But* - I don't think P2 - at least the most active participants on P2 - are representative of the alt-country fan base in general, and I don't think Tweedy is talking about P2. (He may see stuff from Postcard and from AOL, but who the hell would be trawling through this mountain of verbiage and pointing out to him things to be annoyed by?) Don't take it too personally, but I think there is some truth to the complaint that there is a reactionary twang audience out there. Case in point: Last night I went to see a free gig in town by the V-Roys, who I thought were a great bar band, though they were batting about .500 on decent songs. But the crowd was a really roadhouse-country-rock-lovin' bunch, who wanted their roots as loud and straight-up and danceable as possible. Nothing wrong with that, of course. Since we don't get much of the V-Roys brand of twang this far north, I haven't seen a gathering like that at most shows here, and it was fun. But I was very doubtful about how eclectic that audience's tastes probably were. And if Tweedy feels like there are people in such audiences who aren't open to different directions, he may be more right than the braintrust at P2 (The Official Home of The Alt-Whatchamacallit Intelligentsia, tm) would like to assume. Until there are better demographic surveys of the so-called No Depression market, all generalizations are suspect, and all suspicions are general. Carl W.
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
Carl Wilson wrote: Case in point: Last night I went to see a free gig in town by the V-Roys, who I thought were a great bar band, though they were batting about .500 on decent songs. But the crowd was a really roadhouse-country-rock-lovin' bunch, who wanted their roots as loud and straight-up and danceable as possible. Is that any different from people at a Metallica show not wanting to hear Lars co sound like Celine Dion? Or Ziggy Marley fans not wanting Ziggy to pull a glam-rock move? I think that's one of the dangers of bands who want to have one foot in the alt.country door and the other somewhere else. If they can sell to a roadhouse audience, great -- but they shouldn't be surprised if Mike Ireland goes over better than Wilco. Ditto with bands who play roots music with camp or irony. Mike told me once he wished they could play more VFW-type places. Wilco, on the other hand, would get killed at a biker bar. Not making this point as clearly as I'd like, Dave *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
I said of the V-Roys audience the crowd was a really roadhouse-country-rock-lovin' bunch, who wanted their roots as loud and straight-up and danceable as possible. And Dave P retorted: Is that any different from people at a Metallica show not wanting to hear Lars co sound like Celine Dion? Or Ziggy Marley fans not wanting Ziggy to pull a glam-rock move? Nope, it ain't, and those are good comparisons (since like Tweedy, Metallica and Ziggy have both been held up as standard-bearers by fans for their respective genres). However, that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to hear Ziggy Marley do a Velvet Goldmine soundtrack number, or that he shouldn't do so if he wants. And yeah, it would be kinda silly for him to whine and complain if reggae fans didn't appreciate his sudden penchant for Roxy Music and crushed-fabric blue evening dress. (Still if I heard someone verbally bitchslapping him for it, I'd be inclined to say, well, hold on, that's some fine glamrock Mr. Ziggy's turned out there, open your ears. So I'm swinging both ways on this one.) But my point was that P2 in general has established itself as a place where eclecticism is not only tolerated, but in some ways demanded. Which distinguishes it from your standard roadhouse crowd or even the usual cliques of genre devotees. (I don't think the same applies to No Dep to the same degree, by the way - it is more devoted to promoting the genre qua genre, though it's not close-minded.) If they can sell to a roadhouse audience, great -- but they shouldn't be surprised if Mike Ireland goes over better than Wilco. Ditto with bands who play roots music with camp or irony. Good point. It's worth noting here that Wilco's own roots have nothing to do with roadhouses - UT was a post-punk indie band, not a rockin' bar band, and that's a vast cultural divide. The alt-country scene includes both, as Dave's examples indicate. The backlash in the Henry and Wilco articles represent alt-twang way too monolithically. On the other hand, I disagree with Jon W.'s claim that nobody in the ND/P2 world has ever cried sellout at groups like Wilco. When a band known as alt-country moves away from twangier sounds - the Old 97s, Wilco, whoever - there's usually a comment made to the effect that it seems like a combination of "artistic development" and label pressure and/or commercial ambition, because as we all know twang doesn't sell. Now, on P2, that's usually accompanied by a "not that there's anything wrong with that" (which I find just a touch more convincing than the same excuse for anti-gay jokes on Seinfeld). But even if those comments are made in a spirit of complete objectivity, I think in the 90s it's hard for a songwriter to hear claims that changes in their sound are commercially driven without interpreting it partly as a dig. I've looked at twang from both sides now... Carl W.
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
I don't understand it either? I think it's really a case of being "catagorized" that gets artists squirrelly. It seems like Tweedy and Henry to a lesser extent take a defensive stance because a) they feel they have to defend their "evolving" art b) not so sure they are confident with their changes. Maybe? Just an observation from the son of a psycholgist. g But I think their defensiveness is more often than not justified. Matt is correct in that generally people are not extremely accepting en masse of an artist veering away from their roots so to speak. So, I think that is what Tweedy is referring to in that a portion of his earlier audience will and has abandoned him because of his "alleged" betrayal. So it's natural for him to just dismiss them as he feels they've dismissed him. It's always been tough for artists to forge ahead. They're always being compared to their earlier works and if they've had the good fortune or misfortune as the case may be to narrowly miss brilliance in their earlier work, it makes for a constant uphill battle. Neil Young is a great example. People constantly pitted "Trans" against "Harvest"... Different animals, period. Elvis Costello's worst records will far exceed the fodder we call top 40 today, yet he's crucified for a not so terrific release (in the eyes of the media). Essentially I see that one of the primary roles of a writer is to challange his or herself and evolve... If the Beatles stopped at "She Loves You" we never would have had "Happiness is a Warm Gun", if Bob Dylan said to himself "Heck, maybe this electric thang ain't goin' to work here", he would have never been booed off the stage in Newport with his blatent betrayal of folk with his "Band" backing him. What a treat that must have been for him. g I'm sure he hated being crucified, but he did it nevertheless, and now it's being lauded as one of the greatest moments in his career with the recently released Live at the Royal Albert Hall record. I applaud Tweedy/Henry/Jayhawks in the fact that they are uncompromising in their pursuit of making great records. Will there be missteps in the public eye? Yep? Will they lose and gain audiences? Yep? But isn't that what it's all about? The only unfortunate thing is that they feel that it's necessary to lash out at the ND/alt.country label...as we are a valid, and I agree, pretty open minded group of music enthusiasts that don't deserve to be slapped for their interests. The bottom line should be if you like what you here great, if you don't great... But the artists should be judged by the songs... Good songs are good songs period... morgan "slightly defensive and somewhat biased fan of Tweedy/Henry/Louris/Olson/L V (not the ex Miss America)Williams/ Farrar/Earle/Townsend/Hiatt and countless others" At 11:41 AM 3/17/99 -0500, you wrote: What's his beef? He did the Mermaid Ave music in a roosty vein (never have I heard a band try so hard to sound like the Basement Tapes, BTW), so it's not like a huge stretch for folks to expect him and WIlco to still produce ND related music, when his last project *was* so NDish. Now he has a big ELO pop music spectacular, which is fine, but for him to express bewilderment that folks are surprised and maybe not thrilled with such sudden musical changes is funny. It is a radical jump from one album to the next. People who like the Neil Young sound don't rush out and embrace his rockabilly big band techno albums either. People like consistancy. Not everyone is so embracing of the wide range of pop and rock stylings that a artist may feel like playing. Not everyone is so well rounded as some of the folks on p2. No big deal, just the way it is. Interesting to note Joe Henry is also going thru this stage. I don't care what he puts out, I don't think he's betraying anything by changing sounds, I just get tired of him and the "purists" whoever and where ever they are-talking about it.
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
Carl W. says: On the other hand, I disagree with Jon W.'s claim that nobody in the ND/P2 world has ever cried sellout at groups like Wilco. When a band known as alt-country moves away from twangier sounds - the Old 97s, Wilco, whoever - there's usually a comment made to the effect that it seems like a combination of "artistic development" and label pressure and/or commercial ambition, because as we all know twang doesn't sell. The way that I look at it, "selling out" means that "artistic development" isn't in the picture, so even leaving aside the question of whether it's really a criticism to say that a stylistic change includes a commercial motivation (in my book, it ain't), from my perspective there's a healthy-sized difference between the two characterizations. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
RE: Tweedy @ Salon, Kelly Willis
was: gimmackry sp should have been: gimmickry...previous post...was:here sp should have been: hear. my brain...it is not letting my finger's work properly today...plus I'm very related to several english teachers. g BTW, Happy St. Patrick's Day to you all!
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
Cheryl Cline wrote: But -- more on this later; I'm working it into an essay (essays?) about alt-country between time and Timbuktu, generations, the so-called Boomer canon, and stuff I'm shit sick of. For the record, I'm shit sick of Cheryl writing more eloquently and intelligently about music than I ever could in a hundred years. Dave, who is looking forward to drunken Twangfesters attempting to pronounce "shit sick" at 4am *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
the pop switch(was Tweedy @ Salon)
I don't understand this almost predictable switch of formerly dubbed alt-twang bands to this pet-sounds pop thing. we've seen it with joe h, jayhwaks, wilco, golden smog, and the old 97's. maybe it's simply because most of them have been musically incestuous to varying degrees recently and in the past, and ole tweedy and louris have rubbed off on each other. not that I'm oppossed to new styles, I'm not sure if I get their new music. I felt this way after "sound of lies", then with "weird tales", now even more so with "fuse" and "summer teeth". some of the new songs on fuse and summerteeth are interesing, but it's not like I'm rushing home to listen to these records every night. why aren't these bands getting more twangy? more rock? punk? it's hard to give up on bands that have given me so much in the past. and these new fangled twang bands, well, seem to be riding the currents instead of causing the ripples themselves. so maybe that's what tweedy is trying to do. I'm not sure how big of a splash he'll make, but I'm glad that he's exploring new directions in his music. -george
RE: Tweedy @ Salon, Kelly Willis
At 01:40 PM 3/17/99 -0500, you wrote: [Matt Benz] Well, in many ways, I identify with Tweedy, since I grew up with much the same musical influences, I suspect, and hell, I jump around myself musically. But then, no one asks me about that, nor do I have an adoring audience following my every move. Well, I do, but a court order should take care of that problem. Anyhoo, what I mean to say is I understand what he wants to do musically, and again, I'm not one of them ND purists. But like Purcell, I haven't really got into Wilco that much. Not sure why, but it isn't cause of betrayal or anything. Just don'tlike it...much. You've got the right perspective... You understand where he's coming from, yet you don't like it 'cause it just doesn't resonate with you... That's cool... Personally I think this a really good/interesting record (time will tell if it stays on my repeat listens list). I don't know if its the unabashed Brian Wilson influence or what? Maybe it's just that I'm a hopeless popster myself...g Ultimately, I think it's that he's written some strong tunes once again and they're to be found beneath the studio gimmackry... I'm also kinda disappointed with Kelly Willis' release. I guess I was hoping for something more along the lines of "Kelly Willis," a harder country sound. This is too ...erm.americana for my tastes, at least some of it. Still, it is her voice, so I'll live and still play it. Saw an old video of heres from the "Bang Bang" days in which she fully participates in one of them modern country videos. Yowza. I'm actually new to Kelly Willis. I just picked up the record and really like it. Yes indeed, her voice is very beautiful and that carries me through alot of it. I also like the fact that she chose a few choice covers (Drake and Westerberg respectively)... Louris' contribututions are great to boot, particularly "Happy with that". "Not Long for this World" is a fine closer... Not sure if it's been discussed? The new Paul Westerberg Record...Best post Replacements release... Agree? Disagree? Discuss. g morgan
RE: the pop switch(was Tweedy @ Salon)
George Figgs wrote: I don't understand this almost predictable switch of formerly dubbed alt-twang bands to this pet-sounds pop thing. we've seen it with joe h, jayhwaks, wilco, golden smog, and the old 97's. Slonedog responds: While a handful (and it is just a handful folks) of the songs on "Summerteeth" (which I think is brilliant) do owe a debt to "Pet Sounds", I don't think either "Sound of Lies" or Joe Henry's new one have much to do with Brian Wilson. The Jayhawks record reminds me more of 70s pop, rock (Big Star, et al) and even psychedelia. Some of the stuff on the Golden Smog record seems to serve as almost a bridge between "Sound of Lies" and "Summerteeth" (I do think Louris and Tweedy influence each other). And Joe Henry's new stuff (some of which is really good, if not as immediately accessible as his earlier alt-country stuff) seems to come from a different planet altogether. And while I haven't heard the new Old 97s record (looking forward to it), I think it's silly to lump all of these efforts together as their "pop thing" or their "Pet Sounds" thing. It's just like some people who see all alt-country bands as sounding the same. Across the above mentioned records and even from track to track, there is a diversity that cannot be that easily categorized.
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
Jon sez: "even leaving aside the question of whether it's really a criticism to say that a stylistic change includes a commercial motivation (in my book, it ain't), from my perspective there's a healthy-sized difference between the two characterizations." I agree, Jon, but in the minds of someone like Tweedy and the rock critics who interview him too much - generally reared in varying countercultures with self-styled anticommercial posturings - the "accusation" of commercial motivation is going to be read as a sell-out slam, and nuances are likely to be ignored. In a way I brought this up to show the double-bind involved: It's plainly fact that it's hard to make a living doing twangy music that doesn't pander to commercial country radio (not that all radio country's bad, I hasten to say, but I think we can agree its demands are fairly rigid). Rock audiences, for their part, are wary of twangy sounds, the more fool them, and rock labels even more so. So the artist's under all this pressure from "above" to make other sorts of music, and if you're Jeff Tweedy, you might say, "Well, actually, that's what I'm interested in doing at this point anyway." Yet you feel the reverse pressure from "below" -- the weird segment of the rock audience/press that thrives on twangy sounds sneers at pop (as if country were in itself a non-pop form - note second internal paradox). Yet in cases where label-and-money concerns are a bigger factor than natural development, the artist might feel their own regrets about leaving country inflections behind (not in Tweedy's case, I think, but I wonder about the Old 97s) and be extra defensive - perhaps projecting their own ambivalence onto a somewhat mythically constituted "alt-country" audience (esp. when critics are suddenly happy to help you do so). It's all, as Chris Isaks (sp?) might say, a twisted game. Makes me envy the pro musicians out there a bit less. carl w
Re: the pop switch(was Tweedy @ Salon)
Slonedog: While a handful (and it is just a handful folks) of the songs on "Summerteeth" (which I think is brilliant) do owe a debt to "Pet Sounds", I don't think either "Sound of Lies" or Joe Henry's new one have much to do with Brian Wilson. Right on. The Jayhawks' pop turn was pretty Beatlesque, to these ears, while Henry's turn is ... well, follow the bouncing Daniel Lanois. I'm not real impressed with "Fuse," myself, mostly for the songwriting itself rather than the sound. But I do find it sort of an unfortunate marriage of, say, Springsteen and U2. (Altho at times it sounds weirdly like Joe Ely.) The critical/musicians' rediscovery of Brian Wilson in the mid-90s, while a wonderful thing, is leading to way too many lazy uses of the Beach Boys as a metonymy for all things that are pop yet not bubblegum. Weird, weird, weird. Another instance of the syndrome by the way is the Scud Mtn Boys --- Pernice Bros. transformation. Of the group, Joe Pernice is also the one, so far, who seems to me to have the most sophisticated-pop-music chops, with genuine Brian/vdParks attentions *plus* Beatles, 70s pop, Big Star and, for that matter, the likes of Burt Bacharach. Me, I think the pop turn is as much the result of a sudden but sincere, methinks, rediscovery that shiny happy music is not inherently evil, and is a way out of rock's dead ends in a similar way that the adoption of twang influence had been. On the down side, it seems like the late 90s in rock-related music are the equivalent of the early 60s, a transitional time where individual songs are mattering more than albums and tho pop is reborn there are few long-term prospects so far. Which makes me real curious what will happen once this millennial funnybusiness is over, say in 2002-03. Carl W.
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
Carl says: I agree, Jon, but in the minds of someone like Tweedy and the rock critics who interview him too much - generally reared in varying countercultures with self-styled anticommercial posturings - the "accusation" of commercial motivation is going to be read as a sell-out slam, and nuances are likely to be ignored. Which I guess is true enough, and in Tweedy the musician's case, ignoring the nuances might be understandable, but in the case of the interviewer, well, all I'll say is this is one of the reasons one should be wary of rock critics (someone please be sure to forward this to off-list Neal g). Not that critics in other fields are necessarily better, I hasten to add. Anyhow, in another post, Carl says: Me, I think the pop turn is as much the result of a sudden but sincere, methinks, rediscovery that shiny happy music is not inherently evil... Better late than never. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
RE: the pop switch(was Tweedy @ Salon)
Carl Wilson wrote: Me, I think the pop turn is as much the result of a sudden but sincere, methinks, rediscovery that shiny happy music is not inherently evil, and is a way out of rock's dead ends in a similar way that the adoption of twang influence had been. Slonedog responds: It may be a "way out" creatively but not necessarily commercially. I don't exactly hear radio stations begging for the next "Pet Sounds"-soundalike song. Most of them are looking for the next Matchbox3rdEyeBlindSugarRay one hit wonder. So, while the turn towards pop might expand the audiences of these formerly (once possibly future?) alt-country bands, I don't think it's a path that will lead them to world domination. One more reason that any accusation that these bands are "selling out" just doesn't hold water.
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
William T. Cocke wrote: You know, I just read this interview and I'm with Dave. What's the deal here? Since when did this "No Depression purists" tag start appearing? Just who exactly is this guy referring to? He doesn't say. Out of the 700 people on this list, I doubt that anyone really fits the bill here. Is he referring to Postcard? Only thing happening on postcard in this domain is so-called ND non-purists getting pissed off because so-called ND purists AREN'T complaining about how ND impure Summerteeth sounds. If you see what I mean. I'd say that interviewer would be in good company with the other strawperson manufacturers on that mailing list. Stevie
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
Dave Purcell wrote: It's ironic that Tweedy gets annoyed with the "Wilco is an alt.country band" cliche, but seems perfectly willing to play along with the "No Depression purists" stereotype. Perhaps he should consider that some people, such as myself, just don't like his music, and its twang quotient is beside the point. Go, Dave! (Damn. Why couldn't I figure out how to say it that wittily?) Stevie
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
Matt Benz wrote: What's his beef? He did the Mermaid Ave music in a roosty vein (never have I heard a band try so hard to sound like the Basement Tapes, BTW), The first time I heard "Guess I Planted," I thought Bragg had hired The Band to back him up. The keyboards are reminiscent of the swirling Garth Hudson variety and the lead guitar is in the Robbie Robertson doing Hubert Sumlin style. Couldn't just be a coincidence, could it? ;-) I haven't had a chance to check out Bragg's ACL appearance yet for comparison. Gregg === Gregg Makepeace [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
A few folks have mentioned Neil Young and his topsy-turvy stylistic swings as analogous to Tweedy. I'd say an important difference is that Young -- at least not that I can remember -- never burned his bridges. When it suited him, he swung back to country or rock or whatever. I don't have an opinion on Tweedy's current record -- though the ELO comparisons make me want to stay very far away from it -- but he ought to be careful about generalizing, particularly with such an impossible group to pin down, who stand around punching the shit out of each other under the "big umbrella." But, on the other hand, he should say whatever comes into his head, because he's just yapping, and who gives a shit. If I really cared, I'd write 16 more paragraphs! -- Terry Smith
Re: Tweedy @ Salon, Kelly Willis
Check out the Time magazine this week. Richard Corless -- one hell of a reviewer, but mainly movies -- drools over Kelly Willis new one. I'll confess, though, I couldn't figure out what the hell he was trying to say, and moreover missed anything about the way the record "sounds," other than a bunch of vagaries about the feel, versus the sound, of Willis' voice. -- Terry Smith
Re: Tweedy @ Salon
The first time I heard "Guess I Planted," I thought Bragg had hired The
Band to back him up. The keyboards are reminiscent of the swirling Garth
Hudson
variety and the lead guitar is in the Robbie Robertson doing Hubert Sumlin
style. Couldn't just be a coincidence, could it? ;-)
Gregg
Yeah, and on "Hoodoo Voodoo," damn if Coomer's giddy-up ride cymbal don't
call Levon Helm to mind ("Time to Kill" from Stage Fright, in particular).
The harmonies from "At My Window Sad and Lonely" are also remarkably similar
to the double-helix vocals of Danko and Manuel. But, on "Hesitating Beauty,"
does anyone else hear the mighty Everly Brothers--or is it my Percodan
talking again?
Lance . . .
RE: Tweedy @ Salon
On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Matt Benz wrote: Now he has a big ELO pop music spectacular, which is fine, but for him to express bewilderment that folks are surprised and maybe not thrilled with such sudden musical changes is funny. It is a radical jump from one album to the next. People who like the Neil Young sound don't rush out and embrace his rockabilly big band techno albums either. I'd say Jerry Curry is the odd fan out on this one. Most people, if they latch onto an artist because they really like a record, will probably hope that the next record has a lot of the same good qualities. That doesnt have to mean the same sound, but whatever got your wheels spinning you hope spins 'em on the next disc. Any band that leaps around from record to record has to assume they will disappoint a lot of people. Neil Young made a lot of crappy records in the 80s, and at least he didnt care. It's pretty obvious that Tweedy isnt so self-confident on that. Given the pointlessness of so many of the songs on "Being There," with lyrics that sound at times like he'll throw in any word that rhymes, and his inability to settle on a sound gives me the impression that he's just making records to make records. He's not half bad at it either, but the stuff aint substantial enough to justify all this philosophizing and defensiveness on his part or any of his critic fans. Needless to say I'm not curious about this new record. Hey, I liked ELO too, but by the end of the 70s enough was enough. He's 20 years too late. Will Miner Denver, CO
