Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[René Dudfield]

On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 5:41 PM, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:

> On 29 December 2012 12:09, René Dudfield  wrote:
>
>> as I mentioned a couple of times already, I've been working on a new
>> website.
>>
>
> Excellent. Is there a repository anywhere so that people can help you with
> it? How far is it from being ready to replace the current site?
>
>
>> There has also been work on integrating the buildbots to use travis-ci
>> and some other build hosts, to go along with the current build page at:
>> http://thorbrian.com/pygame/builds.php
>>
>
> 'Current' seems a bit of a stretch when it hasn't run in over a year. ;-)
>
> Besides Travis, I've also used Shining Panda (
> https://www.shiningpanda-ci.com/ ), which has a free plan for open source
> projects, and Launchpad recipe builds. I can lend a hand with setting that
> sort of thing up, if you'd like.
>
> Best wishes,
> Thomas
>

Hi ya,

@Thomas: it would be great if you can help out with the CI stuff.  Perhaps
create an issue with your plans RE Launchpad, shining panda etc, so the
rest of us can follow along with what you're up to.



An update:

There is a list of website tasks growing here:
   https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues?component=website

Thanks to Radomir, and Thomas, there have already been a couple of fixes
done.

The list of website tasks and issues will slowly grow as I (and others) can
add them.  So progress should be able to be tracked by looking at the
website component issues (once most of the tasks have been added).

Discuss the specific tasks in the relevant issues.  Or if you want a wider
discussion, please post a link to the issue in the mailing list :)

Also, the pygame user has been switched to the new bitbucket 'team' type of
account, which makes it much easier to create new repos by everyone in the
team.  Some new repos are going to be added.  One for the existing buildbot
code, so people can update it (eg, to use hg).  Also a 'downloads' repo for
installers and source code will be added.

Other repos will be added for separate things as needed (eg, the source
code update downloader will probably have a separate repo.  It downloads
updates from google code, bitbucket, github etc, so we can see what updates
are happening to everyones projects).  These will be added along with the
new tasks for separate parts of the website.

** If anyone asks to create a pygame account website account before the new
signup part is finished, please ask them to email me or the list to ask for
an account.  It would be good if you can check first if they have some sort
of source code for their project or if you know them already to avoid
spammers. **

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Peter Shinners]

Rene, you've got first pick on where the domain should be configured. 
I'll get in touch with you offline.


On 12/29/2012 04:09 AM, René Dudfield wrote:

Hi again,

as I mentioned a couple of times already, I've been working on a new 
website.


As well as maintaining the website for over 7 years, I've also been 
hosting the website and paying for the server for a few years, since 
the seul.org  host was having various troubles(other 
processes on the same box, like Tor servers which meant frequent 
hacking and blocking by various countries).  The mailing list is still 
hosted with seul.org  however.


Please be patient until things are in a state to collaborate more.  
Some things are already migrated or part migrated to the bitbucket and 
DVCS like the wiki, downloads, mercurial version control, issue 
tracking etc.  There are multiple admins on the bitbucket account.  
Comments are with the disquss system, and can be moderated by users.


The new docs are another part of the website that have been migrated.  
The '/docs/' url is still pointed to the old docs at the moment, 
however the alternative url which I put up for testing and to gather 
feedback is still available, and is updated from version control 
automatically.


There has also been work on integrating the buildbots to use travis-ci 
and some other build hosts, to go along with the current build page 
at: http://thorbrian.com/pygame/builds.php


I would like to move the website forward as I have planned.  As well I 
am happy to keep paying for hosting.  I would also like to collaborate 
more on it.  It has been a fairly massive undertaking with many 
different parts, and that has taken way more time that I'd hoped.


However, some parts can already be updated by people, and we are 
getting closer to being able to have more people collaborate on it.  
Going forward, I will have more time to work on the website, and not 
just spend my time fighting spam, and I will put tasks in the issue 
tracker for more visibility, and to allow more people to collaborate.


It would be nice to have confirmation from Pete that he won't just 
move the dns away to point somewhere else.



all the best,



On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Peter Shinners > wrote:


I've been keeping the domain name registered.

The web server and hosting has been managed by seul.org
, which was an lucky and amazing choice for the
project back in early 2003. Seul has been awesome, but the
downside is that everything is "custom". The admins have been
amazing at adding extra ssh accounts for us, but that still feel
like it may not scale or be as flexible as other hosting options
these days?

After I stopped managing the website, Phil Hassey and Rene
Dudfield took over. If a new website is getting put together, it
feels like a good time to point the domain to that.

Currently the domain is set to expire in April 2013. I won't let
it expire, but if someone has more ambitious way to manage it, now
may be a good time to change that also?




On 12/01/2012 05:10 AM, Radomir Dopieralski wrote:

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver
mailto:tak...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Does anyone know who runs the website?

Here's what I know.

According to whois, the domain is registered to "Contact
Privacy Inc.
Customer 0118713523 ", and the server is
hosted by "Hetzner Online AG",
which is a big hosting provider. The website itself contains no
contact information or address, which may or may not be
against the
law, depending on the country. The only person who I know has
access
to the website is not responding to e-mail or other contact
attempts
from multiple people since 3 months, although I can see he is
active
online. The people on the mailing list and IRC channel either
have no
idea or simply don't care. Yes, this is frustrating. No, I
don't know
what else could be done, apart from just making a separate
website,
which may actually be for the best, even though I'm a great fan of
gradual improvement.

If anybody has any better information or ideas, I'd love to
hear them.
Sorry if this all sounds negative, I'm sure this situation didn't
arise because of malice or bad will. But it still hurts to see
people
wanting to help and being unable to do it.

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Thomas Kluyver]

On 29 December 2012 12:09, René Dudfield  wrote:

> as I mentioned a couple of times already, I've been working on a new
> website.
>

Excellent. Is there a repository anywhere so that people can help you with
it? How far is it from being ready to replace the current site?


> There has also been work on integrating the buildbots to use travis-ci and
> some other build hosts, to go along with the current build page at:
> http://thorbrian.com/pygame/builds.php
>

'Current' seems a bit of a stretch when it hasn't run in over a year. ;-)

Besides Travis, I've also used Shining Panda (
https://www.shiningpanda-ci.com/ ), which has a free plan for open source
projects, and Launchpad recipe builds. I can lend a hand with setting that
sort of thing up, if you'd like.

Best wishes,
Thomas

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[René Dudfield]

Hi again,

as I mentioned a couple of times already, I've been working on a new
website.

As well as maintaining the website for over 7 years, I've also been hosting
the website and paying for the server for a few years, since the
seul.orghost was having various troubles(other processes on the same
box, like Tor
servers which meant frequent hacking and blocking by various countries).
The mailing list is still hosted with seul.org however.

Please be patient until things are in a state to collaborate more.  Some
things are already migrated or part migrated to the bitbucket and DVCS like
the wiki, downloads, mercurial version control, issue tracking etc.  There
are multiple admins on the bitbucket account.  Comments are with the
disquss system, and can be moderated by users.

The new docs are another part of the website that have been migrated.  The
'/docs/' url is still pointed to the old docs at the moment, however the
alternative url which I put up for testing and to gather feedback is still
available, and is updated from version control automatically.

There has also been work on integrating the buildbots to use travis-ci and
some other build hosts, to go along with the current build page at:
http://thorbrian.com/pygame/builds.php

I would like to move the website forward as I have planned.  As well I am
happy to keep paying for hosting.  I would also like to collaborate more on
it.  It has been a fairly massive undertaking with many different parts,
and that has taken way more time that I'd hoped.

However, some parts can already be updated by people, and we are getting
closer to being able to have more people collaborate on it.  Going forward,
I will have more time to work on the website, and not just spend my time
fighting spam, and I will put tasks in the issue tracker for more
visibility, and to allow more people to collaborate.

It would be nice to have confirmation from Pete that he won't just move the
dns away to point somewhere else.


all the best,



On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Peter Shinners  wrote:

> I've been keeping the domain name registered.
>
> The web server and hosting has been managed by seul.org, which was an
> lucky and amazing choice for the project back in early 2003. Seul has been
> awesome, but the downside is that everything is "custom". The admins have
> been amazing at adding extra ssh accounts for us, but that still feel like
> it may not scale or be as flexible as other hosting options these days?
>
> After I stopped managing the website, Phil Hassey and Rene Dudfield took
> over. If a new website is getting put together, it feels like a good time
> to point the domain to that.
>
> Currently the domain is set to expire in April 2013. I won't let it
> expire, but if someone has more ambitious way to manage it, now may be a
> good time to change that also?
>
>
>
>
> On 12/01/2012 05:10 AM, Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone know who runs the website?
>>>
>> Here's what I know.
>>
>> According to whois, the domain is registered to "Contact Privacy Inc.
>> Customer 0118713523", and the server is hosted by "Hetzner Online AG",
>> which is a big hosting provider. The website itself contains no
>> contact information or address, which may or may not be against the
>> law, depending on the country. The only person who I know has access
>> to the website is not responding to e-mail or other contact attempts
>> from multiple people since 3 months, although I can see he is active
>> online. The people on the mailing list and IRC channel either have no
>> idea or simply don't care. Yes, this is frustrating. No, I don't know
>> what else could be done, apart from just making a separate website,
>> which may actually be for the best, even though I'm a great fan of
>> gradual improvement.
>>
>> If anybody has any better information or ideas, I'd love to hear them.
>> Sorry if this all sounds negative, I'm sure this situation didn't
>> arise because of malice or bad will. But it still hurts to see people
>> wanting to help and being unable to do it.
>>
>
>

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Peter Shinners]

On 12/28/2012 09:30 AM, Thomas Kluyver wrote:
I know at least one of the previous attempts at a new site used 
Wordpress, which seems like a good bet for many of these things (it's 
not Python, but it is very mainstream). Would seul.org 
 be happy to host a wordpress site? Or is someone 
else prepared to host it?


I don't think there would be any problems switching from the current PHP 
framework to Wordpress or any others. I assume most of the work would 
involve getting a fresh database. It's been so long I'm not sure if I 
even have my credentials for getting onto the SEUL servers.

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Radomir Dopieralski]

On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:

> I know at least one of the previous attempts at a new site used Wordpress,
> which seems like a good bet for many of these things (it's not Python, but
> it is very mainstream). Would seul.org be happy to host a wordpress site? Or
> is someone else prepared to host it?

I think that this is actually the most important question: where and
how to host it.

If you think about the problem of ensuring continuous operation, the
access management, etc. then suddenly the publicly available services
look pretty good. For example, I already made an attempt to put
pygame's documentation on http://readthedocs.org/pygame -- I still
need to rewrite the few remaining HTML documents into ReStructuredText
to make it all work, but it works pretty well. And it's automatically
updated with the pygame's repository (actually, my fork of that
repository for now, while I work on it), so updating the documentation
is as easy as a pull request. All the other rarely changing pages can
go there too.

PyGame already uses Bitbucket to host the code, and its bug tracker
to, well, track the bugs. There is also a wiki on bitbucket, nothing
advanced, but works. Again, the problem is in translating the current
content from HTML which is used by the current wiki, to WikiCreole,
which is used by Bitbucket. That is mostly manual, or at most,
semi-automatic work. But once it's done, it's easy to move the content
again to any wiki engine that supports WikiCreole. If we want an own
wiki, I'm confident that the MoinMoin team will gladly host a wiki for
us on their servers (they have a wiki farm for open source software).

A blog would be a nice addition to the website, but again we can use
one of the numerous available blogging sites out there. No need for
custom software or special hosting.

The last thing that remains is the PyGame projects repository. This is
a problem, as it's custom code and most likely also custom data
format. It would be a great shame to give up on that, though. I think
this is up for discussion.

All those different services can easily work on subdomains of the main
domain, whether it is pygame.org or anything else (probably something
else during the migration).

Just my thought on the matter. I would love to help with it all, and I
started to work on some small things (like the docs), but the amount
of work required is huge and our resources are limited. That's why I
think it would probably be best to work in small steps, one service at
a time. And to organize it so that anybody can help (with the wiki, by
editing it directly, for example, or with the docs, by doing pull
requests). Keeping all the relevant code and configuration in the
publicly available repositories whenever possible is one thing that
would help, for example.
-- 
Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Sam Bull]

On Fri, 2012-12-28 at 17:30 +, Thomas Kluyver wrote:
> Perhaps a new site is the way to go. Let's try to think of some
> requirements:

I think the docs website should also auto-update from the repository.
Either automatically whenever a commit is made, or on a weekly schedule.

This would reduce the number of people needing access to the website, as
they can use the normal merge requests, and the website would
automatically update.

-- 
PGP: 9626CE2B
Twitter/Identi.ca: @sambull



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Thomas Kluyver]

On 27 December 2012 17:36, Peter Shinners  wrote:

> The web server and hosting has been managed by seul.org, which was an
> lucky and amazing choice for the project back in early 2003. Seul has been
> awesome, but the downside is that everything is "custom". The admins have
> been amazing at adding extra ssh accounts for us, but that still feel like
> it may not scale or be as flexible as other hosting options these days?
>
> After I stopped managing the website, Phil Hassey and Rene Dudfield took
> over. If a new website is getting put together, it feels like a good time
> to point the domain to that.
>

A couple of people have had a go at putting together a new site, but there
was some concern about how easily all of the existing content could be
transferred to a new site. That led me to suggest incrementally upgrading
the existing site, but none of the current admins have offered any opinion
on that. Either way, we're not helped by 'Site Swing', a seemingly
unmaintained PHP CMS that I think pygame.org might be the only site still
using.

Perhaps a new site is the way to go. Let's try to think of some
requirements:

- It should support both posts linked to a specific time (like a blog), and
static pages (About, etc.)
- We shouldn't break (most) existing links that people are using - so we
probably need to make redirects.
- We want to keep the colourful, lighthearted style of the current
pygame.org (at least, I think so), but make various improvements to the
aesthetics.
- Several people should be able to update it easily

Desirable:
- Use something mainstream, so that there's lots of support out there.
- Website logic in Python, so that the Python coders who're interested can
easily improve it.

I know at least one of the previous attempts at a new site used Wordpress,
which seems like a good bet for many of these things (it's not Python, but
it is very mainstream). Would seul.org be happy to host a wordpress site?
Or is someone else prepared to host it?

Best wishes,
Thomas

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Peter Shinners]

I've been keeping the domain name registered.

The web server and hosting has been managed by seul.org, which was an 
lucky and amazing choice for the project back in early 2003. Seul has 
been awesome, but the downside is that everything is "custom". The 
admins have been amazing at adding extra ssh accounts for us, but that 
still feel like it may not scale or be as flexible as other hosting 
options these days?


After I stopped managing the website, Phil Hassey and Rene Dudfield took 
over. If a new website is getting put together, it feels like a good 
time to point the domain to that.


Currently the domain is set to expire in April 2013. I won't let it 
expire, but if someone has more ambitious way to manage it, now may be a 
good time to change that also?




On 12/01/2012 05:10 AM, Radomir Dopieralski wrote:

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:

Does anyone know who runs the website?

Here's what I know.

According to whois, the domain is registered to "Contact Privacy Inc.
Customer 0118713523", and the server is hosted by "Hetzner Online AG",
which is a big hosting provider. The website itself contains no
contact information or address, which may or may not be against the
law, depending on the country. The only person who I know has access
to the website is not responding to e-mail or other contact attempts
from multiple people since 3 months, although I can see he is active
online. The people on the mailing list and IRC channel either have no
idea or simply don't care. Yes, this is frustrating. No, I don't know
what else could be done, apart from just making a separate website,
which may actually be for the best, even though I'm a great fan of
gradual improvement.

If anybody has any better information or ideas, I'd love to hear them.
Sorry if this all sounds negative, I'm sure this situation didn't
arise because of malice or bad will. But it still hurts to see people
wanting to help and being unable to do it.

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Jason]

What's stopping anyone from making a new website? I'd be willing to
contribute if someone else takes the initiative.

On Saturday, December 1, 2012 8:10:24 AM UTC-5, Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
>
> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver 
> > 
> wrote: 
> > Does anyone know who runs the website? 
>
> Here's what I know. 
>
> According to whois, the domain is registered to "Contact Privacy Inc. 
> Customer 0118713523", and the server is hosted by "Hetzner Online AG", 
> which is a big hosting provider. The website itself contains no 
> contact information or address, which may or may not be against the 
> law, depending on the country. The only person who I know has access 
> to the website is not responding to e-mail or other contact attempts 
> from multiple people since 3 months, although I can see he is active 
> online. The people on the mailing list and IRC channel either have no 
> idea or simply don't care. Yes, this is frustrating. No, I don't know 
> what else could be done, apart from just making a separate website, 
> which may actually be for the best, even though I'm a great fan of 
> gradual improvement. 
>
> If anybody has any better information or ideas, I'd love to hear them. 
> Sorry if this all sounds negative, I'm sure this situation didn't 
> arise because of malice or bad will. But it still hurts to see people 
> wanting to help and being unable to do it. 
> -- 
> Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl 
>

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Ian Mallett]

Hey all,

Are we making progress with this? I would like to see the PyGame.org
website improved, and I would like to help!

Ian

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Thomas Kluyver]

Looking back over the mailing list, René Dudfield's replies in mid-October
suggest he is involved with the website.

René, is that correct? Can you give us any more info about this? It seems
like there are several people who are prepared to help improve the site.

Thanks,
Thomas


On 1 December 2012 13:10, Radomir Dopieralski  wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:
> > Does anyone know who runs the website?
>
> Here's what I know.
>
> According to whois, the domain is registered to "Contact Privacy Inc.
> Customer 0118713523", and the server is hosted by "Hetzner Online AG",
> which is a big hosting provider. The website itself contains no
> contact information or address, which may or may not be against the
> law, depending on the country. The only person who I know has access
> to the website is not responding to e-mail or other contact attempts
> from multiple people since 3 months, although I can see he is active
> online. The people on the mailing list and IRC channel either have no
> idea or simply don't care. Yes, this is frustrating. No, I don't know
> what else could be done, apart from just making a separate website,
> which may actually be for the best, even though I'm a great fan of
> gradual improvement.
>
> If anybody has any better information or ideas, I'd love to hear them.
> Sorry if this all sounds negative, I'm sure this situation didn't
> arise because of malice or bad will. But it still hurts to see people
> wanting to help and being unable to do it.
> --
> Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl
>

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Radomir Dopieralski]

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:
> Does anyone know who runs the website?

Here's what I know.

According to whois, the domain is registered to "Contact Privacy Inc.
Customer 0118713523", and the server is hosted by "Hetzner Online AG",
which is a big hosting provider. The website itself contains no
contact information or address, which may or may not be against the
law, depending on the country. The only person who I know has access
to the website is not responding to e-mail or other contact attempts
from multiple people since 3 months, although I can see he is active
online. The people on the mailing list and IRC channel either have no
idea or simply don't care. Yes, this is frustrating. No, I don't know
what else could be done, apart from just making a separate website,
which may actually be for the best, even though I'm a great fan of
gradual improvement.

If anybody has any better information or ideas, I'd love to hear them.
Sorry if this all sounds negative, I'm sure this situation didn't
arise because of malice or bad will. But it still hurts to see people
wanting to help and being unable to do it.
-- 
Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Thomas Kluyver]

Does anyone know who runs the website?

Thanks,
Thomas


On 29 November 2012 17:53, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:

> On 29 November 2012 17:49, Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
>
>> Before you start discussing what to actually do, do you have any plans
>> of how to get access to the website?
>>
>
> Well, I was hoping that someone who already has access might see this as a
> good idea. That's the only reasonable way to go about it. I don't know who
> does maintain the site, though.
>
> Thomas
>

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Thomas Kluyver]

On 29 November 2012 17:49, Radomir Dopieralski  wrote:

> Before you start discussing what to actually do, do you have any plans
> of how to get access to the website?
>

Well, I was hoping that someone who already has access might see this as a
good idea. That's the only reasonable way to go about it. I don't know who
does maintain the site, though.

Thomas

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Radomir Dopieralski]

On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 6:43 PM, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:
> On 29 November 2012 17:37, Santiago Romero  wrote:
>>
>> What about  but "questions" are not ("Result for 3+5" + textbox, "What's
>> your favourite scripting language?" + textbox) instead of captchas?
>
> That's the sort of thing I had in mind. Technically, they are still
> captchas, just text-based rather than image-based. We use them on the
> IPython wiki (http://wiki.ipython.org/Main_Page ), and while it doesn't stop
> all spam, it cuts it to a manageable level.

Before you start discussing what to actually do, do you have any plans
of how to get access to the website?

-- 
Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Thomas Kluyver]

On 29 November 2012 17:37, Santiago Romero  wrote:

> What about  but "questions" are not ("Result for 3+5" + textbox, "What's
> your favourite scripting language?" + textbox) instead of captchas?


That's the sort of thing I had in mind. Technically, they are still
captchas, just text-based rather than image-based. We use them on the
IPython wiki (http://wiki.ipython.org/Main_Page ), and while it doesn't
stop all spam, it cuts it to a manageable level.

Thomas

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Santiago Romero]

>
> - If necessary, work on ways to cut spam to manageable levels, like simple
> CAPTCHAs.
>

What about  but "questions" are not ("Result for 3+5" + textbox, "What's
your favourite scripting language?" + textbox) instead of captchas?

Also (althought it breaks mobile access) html5-game-based captchas (see
http://areyouahuman.com) seems to be a nice idea.

-- 
Santiago Romero
Ubuntu GNU/Linux
http://www.sromero.org

Re: [pygame] PyGame website

[Radomir Dopieralski]

On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:
> Looking at the list archives, I know this has come up a couple of times
> recently, so allow me to present a slightly different take.
>
> A few people have proposed replacing the site with a new one. Others
> mentioned that migrating the existing content might be quite a lot of work,
> and the idea seems to have fizzled out each time. Also, the currently
> website is interestingly unique, and it would be nice to keep that.
>
> So I suggest incremental improvements:
> - Re-enable new user registrations
> - Pick some of the people who have volunteered to help with spam, and give
> them moderator status (or whatever is equivalent).
> - Have a push to make sure pages are up to date and useful. For instance,
> the 'What's New' page is >3 years out of date.
> - Put the site theme/engine in a public repository where people can
> contribute to it. (Or if it already is, make it easier to find)
> - Improve the theme - I've done a brief mockup of some minor changes to the
> front page [1].
> - If necessary, work on ways to cut spam to manageable levels, like simple
> CAPTCHAs.
>
> [1] http://ubuntuone.com/3zhDP71Z12C3IGmFQo5TWl
> N.B. The changes here are quite minimal - I've left the main layout and the
> colour scheme the same, but tried to make it a bit less crowded. I didn't
> think it should look too serious.

All excellent ideas and I support you in whole.

What now?

-- 
Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl

Re: [pygame] pygame-website under development?

[Jake b]

Maybe this is complicating things more than needed, could be as simple as a
have a boolean set by the author using a checkbox. If: its
'not-usable-at-this-point-other-than-prototype' checkbox.

However, I think 2 choices isn't enough, that 3 is just right. [else, games
will 'hang' on non-finished because they are not super-polished, even if
they are playable ]  More than 3 is getting excessive, where the values
become less distinct, less meaning.

listbox enum: {
  very_alpha ,
# Very early, prototype/alpha state.

  playable ,
# game might have few levels, but is playable.
# Not uber polished, not a huge amount of content.

  mature }
# Lots of levels / content.
# Game has a lot more polish

Not sure how good version numbers will work, if they aren't normalized. But
maybe false-not-ready's in a search better than mostly-not-set-values?

There's also libraries. Could use same values: { very_alpha, usable, mature
}
-- 
Jake

Re: [pygame] pygame-website under development?

[René Dudfield]

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Enrico Kochon wrote:

> René Dudfield schrieb:
> > I think the version field can be used for this.
> >
> > On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Enrico Kochon <
> ekoc...@uni-osnabrueck.de>wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> ist www.pygame.org still under active development? Does anybody know
> who
> >> is responsible? Is it Pete Shinners?
> >> http://www.pygame.org/wiki/todo mentions planned development tasks like
> >> a ranking system and so on.
> >>
> >> I would like to add one feature to the wishlist: a flag concerning the
> >> readiness of a game.
> >> There are so many games, thats great, but it is very complicated to find
> >> games which are developed far enough to be really playable.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Enrico
> >>
> >
>
> Hi,
>
> yes the version field should be enough. Thus, my featurerequest was
> slightly incorrect: I ought to wish it was possible to search projects
> with a certain version.
> Netherless, the field version is free text, a version numbering system,
> or good default text choices (alpha, beta, release) are not given.
>
> By the way: there is a promising site http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/, what
> is this all about? Will it replace the offical pygame.org?
>
> Regards,
> Enrico
>



Yeah, I think some sort of search page using the version number would be
cool.

Searches where you can select >= 1, beta, alpha etc might be useful.


cu.

Re: [pygame] pygame-website under development?

[Enrico Kochon]

René Dudfield schrieb:
> I think the version field can be used for this.
> 
> On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Enrico Kochon 
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> ist www.pygame.org still under active development? Does anybody know who
>> is responsible? Is it Pete Shinners?
>> http://www.pygame.org/wiki/todo mentions planned development tasks like
>> a ranking system and so on.
>>
>> I would like to add one feature to the wishlist: a flag concerning the
>> readiness of a game.
>> There are so many games, thats great, but it is very complicated to find
>> games which are developed far enough to be really playable.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Enrico
>>
> 

Hi,

yes the version field should be enough. Thus, my featurerequest was
slightly incorrect: I ought to wish it was possible to search projects
with a certain version.
Netherless, the field version is free text, a version numbering system,
or good default text choices (alpha, beta, release) are not given.

By the way: there is a promising site http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/, what
is this all about? Will it replace the offical pygame.org?

Regards,
Enrico

Re: [pygame] pygame-website under development?

[René Dudfield]

I think the version field can be used for this.

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Enrico Kochon wrote:

> Hi,
>
> ist www.pygame.org still under active development? Does anybody know who
> is responsible? Is it Pete Shinners?
> http://www.pygame.org/wiki/todo mentions planned development tasks like
> a ranking system and so on.
>
> I would like to add one feature to the wishlist: a flag concerning the
> readiness of a game.
> There are so many games, thats great, but it is very complicated to find
> games which are developed far enough to be really playable.
>
> Best regards,
> Enrico
>

Re: [pygame] pygame-website under development?

[Khono Hackland]

That sounds like a good idea, Enrico.  Often it isn't explicit just
how complete a posted game (or program) is.

On 22 May 2010 03:11, Enrico Kochon  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> ist www.pygame.org still under active development? Does anybody know who
> is responsible? Is it Pete Shinners?
> http://www.pygame.org/wiki/todo mentions planned development tasks like
> a ranking system and so on.
>
> I would like to add one feature to the wishlist: a flag concerning the
> readiness of a game.
> There are so many games, thats great, but it is very complicated to find
> games which are developed far enough to be really playable.
>
> Best regards,
> Enrico
>

[pygame] pygame-website under development?

[Enrico Kochon]

Hi,

ist www.pygame.org still under active development? Does anybody know who
is responsible? Is it Pete Shinners?
http://www.pygame.org/wiki/todo mentions planned development tasks like
a ranking system and so on.

I would like to add one feature to the wishlist: a flag concerning the
readiness of a game.
There are so many games, thats great, but it is very complicated to find
games which are developed far enough to be really playable.

Best regards,
Enrico

Re: [pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.

[René Dudfield]

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:45 AM, orcun avsar  wrote:
> i think jug touched a good point. i first red marcus's or your message
> saying "we can start our gsoc projects even if we didn't selected" than when
> jug mailed to list. i decided to join. we never forced to do it. i wasn't
> thinking you will start to do it because it was on GSoC list and you were
> mentor and reviewed our proposals for that project.when i sent my proposal
> you seemed like you liked it. if you plan to do it, you shouldn't have let
> us spread our times for our gsoc proposals.
>

Hello,

You did have a good proposal, however I suggested you submit a
different proposal.  I made that point repeatedly on the mailing list.
 We had many projects to select from - around 30 different proposals.
I'm sorry that you spent time on your proposal, or if the message
wasn't clear enough.  Different people were interested in different
projects, and proposals.  We tried our hardest to get as many of the
pygame proposals accepted as possible - and got the most out of any
python projects under the PSF.  Most other projects only got 1
accepted.  Unfortunately the whole proposal process wastes a lot of
peoples time... but not completely... as proposal writing is a good
skill to practice.

I didn't make the point that you can work on projects even if not
selected, and wasn't really comfortable with that point being made.
However, of course people can work on whatever they like.

You of course, are free to do whatever you like - including continuing
to work on your website.  Just because I'm working on one, doesn't
mean you can't too.


> sorry for little nervy behaviours.
>

Re: [pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.

[René Dudfield]

hello,


On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 9:18 AM, jug  wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> The coding on the django based website started without discussion
>> finishing.  There was a discussion with some different view points, and you
>> just didn't seem to care and began the website, ignoring them anyway.  Then
>> I didn't have any option but to start a website myself.
>
> Well, there was no progress in discussion any more. And why do you have to
> start an own project when we start? Do you think Django is rubbish or why
> can't you just let us (keen students) do our project even if its not part of
> GSoC? Do you have to give proof of sth.? Do you have nothing better to do
> (like me :))?
>

I tried to talk with you, but you didn't listen, and went ahead on
your own.  You didn't respond to my email letting you know I'll be
working on an alternative project either.

Again, there were efforts on a new website before you started.  Phil
prepared the existing website source code to be released, and I have
been working on design and planning.



> I think, we've got to a pretty nice intermediate, so why do you have to
> start a competitive project instead of helping us with testing, design, Trac
> etc. so we get one "perfect" website that all back and not 2 good ones and
> so. has to decide who's work will be appreciated and who's not.
>

It's great that you've got your website going, however it's not the
direction I'm interested in.  It seems you've done a good job at it,
and it looks like it's going to turn into a very good website.

You just started working on your code, and didn't respond to my
concerns.  That's not the way to try and work together from my
perspective.  Perhaps if you'd waited, and we came to some sort of
agreement we could have worked together.



>> I told you in other threads I was making one, and that there had been a
>> plan to make one since January.  Again, neither you or jug responded.
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/fedcce866a7725fc/e4dfb2854a5013a1?lnk=gst&q=website#e4dfb2854a5013a1
>> 
>
> If it was so clear that you will write the website since January, why was it
> a point on GSoC list and why don't you have already started? (Would you
> write your own page even if it was a GSoC project? What's the difference
> now?)
>

The website projects were not selected for GSOC.  I don't control what
goes on that list, and I didn't put it there.  Anyone can place things
on that gsoc ideas list.

There was a start, as mentioned in the other emails I sent to you.
http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/34a561e3ac7ebc26/ed32b7f3d1f20688


> And since we used the pygame svn repo at google and the at the beginning
> introduced webiste/Trac everyone could always notice what we were doing and
> we don't come back from nowhere surprisingly. We telled your our plans and
> did that thus far whereas it's a bit curious to me that you check in your
> competitive product just a few hours after our fist preview release.
>
> Julian
>
>

yes, and I told you a couple of times I'd be working on one too... weeks ago.
http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/fedcce866a7725fc/e4dfb2854a5013a1?lnk=gst&q=website#e4dfb2854a5013a1

I also released the current website source to the mailing list weeks ago...
http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/58ecbc11953f5c6/56ff133bf7378ccc



Anyone can work on whatever they want.  You do whatever you like, and
I'll work on a separate website project.

Each project can of course be used by other websites other than
pygame... there's thousands of open source projects out there who'd
like a good website.

There's also a lot of work which can be shared between the two... like
the mapping of the existing database that we've done... for migrating
old data over - and many other things.  Our website is likely to be
licenced LGPL like pygame... to keep it simple.  Using the licences of
the various other components we use.

Another reason to work on it is to learn - so as we make these
websites, we can learn about them.  So I'm not at all worried if our
(the non-django teams) website isn't used as the pygame website.

So far your website looks, and works better... our website-game just
returns 'lalala'.

I wish you well in your efforts.

Re: [pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.

[orcun avsar]

there was too many messages on that topic, i was following yours and
marcus's messages on that topic because you were mentors for the GSoC. i
don't think everybody would ever come together at the same thought because
it's a matter of choice that chosing which framework to use. i lastly red
marcus's message which he was saying that  he trusts us and i thought it and
stop following that thread because so many messages were comparing django
and cherrypy. i didn't like it.  i missed your last message sorry for that.

>If it was so clear that you will write the website since January, why
>was it a point on GSoC list and why don't you have already started?
>(Would you write your own page even if it was a GSoC project? What's the
>difference now?)


i think jug touched a good point. i first red marcus's or your message
saying "we can start our gsoc projects even if we didn't selected" than when
jug mailed to list. i decided to join. we never forced to do it. i wasn't
thinking you will start to do it because it was on GSoC list and you were
mentor and reviewed our proposals for that project.when i sent my proposal
you seemed like you liked it. if you plan to do it, you shouldn't have let
us spread our times for our gsoc proposals.

sorry for little nervy behaviours.

2009/5/26 René Dudfield 

>
>
> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:43 AM, orcun avsar  wrote:
>
>> Is it because just you want to do it or you didn't liked current goings on
>> of the django-based development. if you didn't liked development of django
>> site you should point it out so it stops if general discussion is at same
>> opinion. i think this is what behaviour should be. i never say it's a bad
>> thing and you shouldn't do it because it's nice you want pygame.orgbecome 
>> better and i'm not the one to decide on that but you. but there are
>> points i didn't liked. people will give efforts on this projects and there
>> is one goal at the end for the both teams. i don't join the idea "*each
>> code base should be still useful for other projects even if it doesn't get
>> used for pygame.org*".  it's not like developing a game.  team that loses
>> won't reach into anything and all efforts they do will be ruined. i want to
>> highlight again that i don't mean you shouldn't do it and i don't feel like
>> we will win or lose. i'm just worried about one of the teams(not only us)
>> efforts will be wasted and nobody said us we will compete when it was
>> starting. excuse me but i also felt like some django hate on that message.
>>
>>
>
> hello,
>
> I never got a response from you, or jug when I talked about it a couple of
> weeks ago here:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/872f0751729c8176/208a966e5470d891?pli=1
>
> The coding on the django based website started without discussion
> finishing.  There was a discussion with some different view points, and you
> just didn't seem to care and began the website, ignoring them anyway.  Then
> I didn't have any option but to start a website myself.
>
> I told you in other threads I was making one, and that there had been a
> plan to make one since January.  Again, neither you or jug responded.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/fedcce866a7725fc/e4dfb2854a5013a1?lnk=gst&q=website#e4dfb2854a5013a1
>
>
>
>

Re: [pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.

[jug]

Hi,

The coding on the django based website started without discussion 
finishing.  There was a discussion with some different view points, 
and you just didn't seem to care and began the website, ignoring them 
anyway.  Then I didn't have any option but to start a website myself.
Well, there was no progress in discussion any more. And why do you have 
to start an own project when we start? Do you think Django is rubbish or 
why can't you just let us (keen students) do our project even if its not 
part of GSoC? Do you have to give proof of sth.? Do you have nothing 
better to do (like me :))?


I think, we've got to a pretty nice intermediate, so why do you have to 
start a competitive project instead of helping us with testing, design, 
Trac etc. so we get one "perfect" website that all back and not 2 good 
ones and so. has to decide who's work will be appreciated and who's not.


I told you in other threads I was making one, and that there had been 
a plan to make one since January.  Again, neither you or jug responded.
http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/fedcce866a7725fc/e4dfb2854a5013a1?lnk=gst&q=website#e4dfb2854a5013a1 

If it was so clear that you will write the website since January, why 
was it a point on GSoC list and why don't you have already started? 
(Would you write your own page even if it was a GSoC project? What's the 
difference now?)


And since we used the pygame svn repo at google and the at the beginning 
introduced webiste/Trac everyone could always notice what we were doing 
and we don't come back from nowhere surprisingly. We telled your our 
plans and did that thus far whereas it's a bit curious to me that you 
check in your competitive product just a few hours after our fist 
preview release.


Julian

Re: [pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.

[René Dudfield]

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:43 AM, orcun avsar  wrote:

> Is it because just you want to do it or you didn't liked current goings on
> of the django-based development. if you didn't liked development of django
> site you should point it out so it stops if general discussion is at same
> opinion. i think this is what behaviour should be. i never say it's a bad
> thing and you shouldn't do it because it's nice you want pygame.org become
> better and i'm not the one to decide on that but you. but there are points i
> didn't liked. people will give efforts on this projects and there is one
> goal at the end for the both teams. i don't join the idea "*each code base
> should be still useful for other projects even if it doesn't get used for
> pygame.org*".  it's not like developing a game.  team that loses won't
> reach into anything and all efforts they do will be ruined. i want to
> highlight again that i don't mean you shouldn't do it and i don't feel like
> we will win or lose. i'm just worried about one of the teams(not only us)
> efforts will be wasted and nobody said us we will compete when it was
> starting. excuse me but i also felt like some django hate on that message.
>
>

hello,

I never got a response from you, or jug when I talked about it a couple of
weeks ago here:
http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/872f0751729c8176/208a966e5470d891?pli=1

The coding on the django based website started without discussion
finishing.  There was a discussion with some different view points, and you
just didn't seem to care and began the website, ignoring them anyway.  Then
I didn't have any option but to start a website myself.

I told you in other threads I was making one, and that there had been a plan
to make one since January.  Again, neither you or jug responded.
http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/fedcce866a7725fc/e4dfb2854a5013a1?lnk=gst&q=website#e4dfb2854a5013a1

Re: [pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.

[orcun avsar]

Is it because just you want to do it or you didn't liked current goings on
of the django-based development. if you didn't liked development of django
site you should point it out so it stops if general discussion is at same
opinion. i think this is what behaviour should be. i never say it's a bad
thing and you shouldn't do it because it's nice you want pygame.org become
better and i'm not the one to decide on that but you. but there are points i
didn't liked. people will give efforts on this projects and there is one
goal at the end for the both teams. i don't join the idea "*each code base
should be still useful for other projects even if it doesn't get used for
pygame.org*".  it's not like developing a game.  team that loses won't reach
into anything and all efforts they do will be ruined. i want to highlight
again that i don't mean you shouldn't do it and i don't feel like we will
win or lose. i'm just worried about one of the teams(not only us) efforts
will be wasted and nobody said us we will compete when it was starting.
excuse me but i also felt like some django hate on that message.


2009/5/25 René Dudfield 

> *___**  _  _ __ ___  _   _
> || \ \\ // \  //\ ||\/|  /|\
> || |  \\   /||   //  \|| \  / |  ||
> |--/   \\_/ ||==//\   ||  \/  |  |||
> **|**|  ||  ||||   //  \  ||  |  ||
> **|**|  ||   \/   //\ ||  |  \=/
>*.
>*o*
>*r*
>*g*
>
>- taking the C++ out of game development.
> - the web isn't just text and databases.
>  - taking the framework out of webs.
>
>
>
> there is already another team working on a 'django' based remake of the
> pygame website.
> As mentioned here:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/34a561e3ac7ebc26/ed32b7f3d1f20688
>  and here:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/872f0751729c8176/208a966e5470d891
>
> we are also working on a new pygame.org website!  This email describes the
> non-django teams effort.  A little competition is never bad, and each code
> base should be still useful for other projects even if it doesn't get used
> for pygame.org
>
>
>
> May the best website win!
>
> *=**
> = **The Plan.** **=
> * *=**
> *
>
>
> *~ Stage one(1)*:
> - rewrite current site in python using existing templates.
> - Using python, *pygame*, mysql, cherrypy, ffmpeg, sqlalchemy,
> pygments, feedparser, lxml, and likely formencode/formalchemy/nicks formlib.
> - incorporate small features from long standing todo list into the rewrite.
> - start design of new website as we go.  Using moch ups, and design by Daniel
> Jones  (portfolio link
> http://daniel.poweredbybees.com/ ), (illume)
> Rene, (pymike), (akalias) Nicholas, and - getting feedback from community.
> - Daniel will send moch-ups to mailing list for review and crits.
> - use knowledge from redoing existing website in the design of the new
> website.
>
>
>
> Development is just starting in svn:
> http://code.google.com/p/pygame/source/browse/#svn/branches/w
>
>
> A code layout something like this...
>
> run_game.py
> run_tests.py
>
> lib/db.py
> lib/cherrypy
> lib/sqlalchemy
> lib/
>
> public_html/
> public_html/skins/
> public_html/shots/
>
> Will include the database (with all personal details removed) as sql.
> sqllite for development, and mysql on the real server.  Since python comes
> with sqllite, people won't need to set up mysql to make changes.
>
> Including cherrypy, and sqlalchemy so people don't need to install them
> separately.
>
> It's the same layout used by many pygames especially skellington based
> pyweek games.
>
>
>
>
> *~ Stage two(2):*
> - implement new features and design.
> - open up to other developers.
>
>
>
>
>
> Current todo list (as collected from pygame.org/wiki/todo):
>
>- feed(rss, atom) for wiki recent changes.
>- Menu to use alternating background colours - to make it easier to
>read.
>- Optional email notification on project change, including release and
>comment. A per user, per project option.
>- Nicer urls for projects. eg projects/512/zanthor/
>- detect tabs in code blocks, and convert to spaces. Either ask to
>convert to 4 or 8 spaces, or do some magic to figure out how many spaces.
>- Browsing projects in more ways. By ranking, by date.
>- Spotlight projects changeable from management area.
>- Fix website for looking ok in 800x600 resolution - the header does
>not scale down well.

[pygame] pygame website - the non-Django team.

[René Dudfield]

*___**  _  _ __ ___  _   _
|| \ \\ // \  //\ ||\/|  /|\
|| |  \\   /||   //  \|| \  / |  ||
|--/   \\_/ ||==//\   ||  \/  |  |||
**|**|  ||  ||||   //  \  ||  |  ||
**|**|  ||   \/   //\ ||  |  \=/
   *.
   *o*
   *r*
   *g*

   - taking the C++ out of game development.
- the web isn't just text and databases.
 - taking the framework out of webs.



there is already another team working on a 'django' based remake of the
pygame website.
As mentioned here:
http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/34a561e3ac7ebc26/ed32b7f3d1f20688
 and here:
http://groups.google.com/group/pygame-mirror-on-google-groups/browse_thread/thread/872f0751729c8176/208a966e5470d891

we are also working on a new pygame.org website!  This email describes the
non-django teams effort.  A little competition is never bad, and each code
base should be still useful for other projects even if it doesn't get used
for pygame.org



May the best website win!

*=**
= **The Plan.** **=
* *=**
*


*~ Stage one(1)*:
- rewrite current site in python using existing templates.
- Using python, *pygame*, mysql, cherrypy, ffmpeg, sqlalchemy, pygments,
feedparser, lxml, and likely formencode/formalchemy/nicks formlib.
- incorporate small features from long standing todo list into the rewrite.
- start design of new website as we go.  Using moch ups, and design by Daniel
Jones  (portfolio link
http://daniel.poweredbybees.com/ ), (illume)
Rene, (pymike), (akalias) Nicholas, and - getting feedback from community.
- Daniel will send moch-ups to mailing list for review and crits.
- use knowledge from redoing existing website in the design of the new
website.



Development is just starting in svn:
http://code.google.com/p/pygame/source/browse/#svn/branches/w


A code layout something like this...

run_game.py
run_tests.py

lib/db.py
lib/cherrypy
lib/sqlalchemy
lib/

public_html/
public_html/skins/
public_html/shots/

Will include the database (with all personal details removed) as sql.
sqllite for development, and mysql on the real server.  Since python comes
with sqllite, people won't need to set up mysql to make changes.

Including cherrypy, and sqlalchemy so people don't need to install them
separately.

It's the same layout used by many pygames especially skellington based
pyweek games.




*~ Stage two(2):*
- implement new features and design.
- open up to other developers.





Current todo list (as collected from pygame.org/wiki/todo):

   - feed(rss, atom) for wiki recent changes.
   - Menu to use alternating background colours - to make it easier to read.

   - Optional email notification on project change, including release and
   comment. A per user, per project option.
   - Nicer urls for projects. eg projects/512/zanthor/
   - detect tabs in code blocks, and convert to spaces. Either ask to
   convert to 4 or 8 spaces, or do some magic to figure out how many spaces.
   - Browsing projects in more ways. By ranking, by date.
   - Spotlight projects changeable from management area.
   - Fix website for looking ok in 800x600 resolution - the header does not
   scale down well.






**
*= Stage X: Making an API usable from the cmd line. =

*

The idea is to include this inside of pygame.  So that people can interact
with the community from inside their programs - using the pygame library.

pygame.org.news.latest()
pygame.org.docs.comment(pygame.transform.scale)
 pygame.org.projects.latest()
pygame.org.projects.comment(project_id)
pygame.org.projects.new()
pygame.org.projects.release(my_project_info)
pygame.org.coolstuff()


Other ideas include:
- easy uploading/including of screencasts (eg, youtube videos of game play,
rather than static screenshots).
- making distributing games easier... provide tools to allow uploading
releases to other websites.






*___  _  _ __ ___  _   _
|| \ \\ // \  //\ ||\/|  /|\
|| |  \\   /||   //  \|| \  / |  ||
|--/   \\_/ ||==//\   ||  \/  |  |||
||  ||  ||||   //  \  ||  |  ||
||  ||   \/   //\ ||  |  \=/
*
   - now with colorful ascii art.



--
| We love♥ the real Django... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Django_Reinhardt
| http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=

Re: [pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready for testing

[Tyler Laing]

Good to hear Devon. Good luck with your efforts!

-Tyler

On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 12:06 AM, Devon Scott-Tunkin
wrote:

>
> Thanks. She's right about the teal gradient:).
> The current design is VERY alpha, more basic layout to get started then
> anything and I'm really just playing with the colors at this point. Adobe
> kuler is also good for color schemes.
>
> Devon
>
> --- On Sun, 5/24/09, Tyler Laing  wrote:
>
> > From: Tyler Laing 
> > Subject: Re: [pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready
> for  testing
> > To: pygame-users@seul.org
> > Date: Sunday, May 24, 2009, 4:17 PM
> > Hi, lots of good work there. I sent
> > over your current design, as of sun may 24, 2:02 PM, to an
> > artist friend of mine. Also, I sent her the old design. She
> > had some advice and criticisms:
> >
> > "The gradient must disappear. On the
> > first one and on both of them the dark green does not match
> > the yellower-based greens. They need
> > to pick a theme of green thoughout. Not teal green and then
> > toss in some lime. It just doesn't match or coordinate
> > at all."
> >
> >
> > "What they really need is a
> > blend of the new site and the old. Because the new site is
> > too sparse and the old one is too busy without having
> > good-looking dividers."
> >
> > About the new site design: "Just make
> > sure that their greens match. The
> > white background's(for the new site) not bad but
> > it's pretty stark.  I'd say maybe the
> > best thing would be just a solid background, or just take
> > out that big image and do a simple texture on the background
> > paired with a smaller, more modest header image.
> > Also the tables in the white are very
> > boring. They should have better borders or a little
> > color."
> >
> >
> > If you want to use green, she suggests using this website
> > to pick a color scheme: http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/colors.php
> >
> > Just remember, if you don't like the advice, you
> > don't have to listen to her, but it is advice intended
> > to make the site better. :)
> >
> >
> > -Tyler
> >
> > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 1:48 PM,
> > jug 
> > wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> >
> > A first version of the rewritten pygame.org
> > website is ready for testing:
> >
> >
> >
> >http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/
> >
> >
> >
> > Main focus is on project management and user system. News
> > are also
> >
> > yet available. Feel free to register or log in with
> > guest/guest, create and
> >
> > edit projects, releases, screenshots and your profile or
> > vote the
> >
> > (dummy-)project of the month.
> >
> >
> >
> > Devon is still working on the design and often changes it.
> >
> >
> >
> > For development organization we use Trac and a mailing list
> > at google groups.
> >
> > More information at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/.
> >
> >
> >
> > If you spot any bugs or have an idea for this first version
> > thats not
> >
> > already on our ToDo list (http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/ToDo)
> >
> > create a ticket.
> >
> >
> >
> > There was a problem with email and Trac, but now, all
> > registration
> >
> > and email stuff should work.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Julian
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Visit my blog at http://oddco.ca/zeroth/zblog
> >
> >
>
>
>
>


-- 
Visit my blog at http://oddco.ca/zeroth/zblog

Re: [pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready for testing

[Devon Scott-Tunkin]

Thanks. She's right about the teal gradient:).
The current design is VERY alpha, more basic layout to get started then 
anything and I'm really just playing with the colors at this point. Adobe kuler 
is also good for color schemes.

Devon

--- On Sun, 5/24/09, Tyler Laing  wrote:

> From: Tyler Laing 
> Subject: Re: [pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready for  
> testing
> To: pygame-users@seul.org
> Date: Sunday, May 24, 2009, 4:17 PM
> Hi, lots of good work there. I sent
> over your current design, as of sun may 24, 2:02 PM, to an
> artist friend of mine. Also, I sent her the old design. She
> had some advice and criticisms:
> 
> "The gradient must disappear. On the
> first one and on both of them the dark green does not match
> the yellower-based greens. They need
> to pick a theme of green thoughout. Not teal green and then
> toss in some lime. It just doesn't match or coordinate
> at all."
> 
> 
> "What they really need is a
> blend of the new site and the old. Because the new site is
> too sparse and the old one is too busy without having
> good-looking dividers."
> 
> About the new site design: "Just make
> sure that their greens match. The
> white background's(for the new site) not bad but
> it's pretty stark.  I'd say maybe the
> best thing would be just a solid background, or just take
> out that big image and do a simple texture on the background
> paired with a smaller, more modest header image.
> Also the tables in the white are very
> boring. They should have better borders or a little
> color."
> 
> 
> If you want to use green, she suggests using this website
> to pick a color scheme: http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/colors.php
> 
> Just remember, if you don't like the advice, you
> don't have to listen to her, but it is advice intended
> to make the site better. :)
> 
> 
> -Tyler
> 
> On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 1:48 PM,
> jug 
> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> A first version of the rewritten pygame.org
> website is ready for testing:
> 
> 
> 
>    http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/
> 
> 
> 
> Main focus is on project management and user system. News
> are also
> 
> yet available. Feel free to register or log in with
> guest/guest, create and
> 
> edit projects, releases, screenshots and your profile or
> vote the
> 
> (dummy-)project of the month.
> 
> 
> 
> Devon is still working on the design and often changes it.
> 
> 
> 
> For development organization we use Trac and a mailing list
> at google groups.
> 
> More information at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/.
> 
> 
> 
> If you spot any bugs or have an idea for this first version
> thats not
> 
> already on our ToDo list (http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/ToDo)
> 
> create a ticket.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a problem with email and Trac, but now, all
> registration
> 
> and email stuff should work.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Julian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Visit my blog at http://oddco.ca/zeroth/zblog
> 
> 

Re: [pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready for testing

[Tyler Laing]

Hi, lots of good work there. I sent over your current design, as of sun may
24, 2:02 PM, to an artist friend of mine. Also, I sent her the old design.
She had some advice and criticisms:

"The gradient must disappear. On the first one and on both of them the dark
green does not match the yellower-based greens. They need to pick a theme of
green thoughout. Not teal green and then toss in some lime. It just doesn't
match or coordinate at all."

"What they really need is a blend of the new site and the old. Because the
new site is too sparse and the old one is too busy without having
good-looking dividers."

About the new site design: "Just make sure that their greens match. The
white background's(for the new site) not bad but it's pretty stark.  I'd say
maybe the best thing would be just a solid background, or just take out that
big image and do a simple texture on the background paired with a smaller,
more modest header image. Also the tables in the white are very boring. They
should have better borders or a little color."

If you want to use green, she suggests using this website to pick a color
scheme: http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/colors.php

Just remember, if you don't like the advice, you don't have to listen to
her, but it is advice intended to make the site better. :)

-Tyler

On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 1:48 PM, jug  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> A first version of the rewritten pygame.org website is ready for testing:
>
>   http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/
>
> Main focus is on project management and user system. News are also
> yet available. Feel free to register or log in with guest/guest, create and
> edit projects, releases, screenshots and your profile or vote the
> (dummy-)project of the month.
>
> Devon is still working on the design and often changes it.
>
> For development organization we use Trac and a mailing list at google
> groups.
> More information at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/.
>
> If you spot any bugs or have an idea for this first version thats not
> already on our ToDo list (http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/ToDo)
> create a ticket.
>
> There was a problem with email and Trac, but now, all registration
> and email stuff should work.
>
> Regards,
> Julian
>



-- 
Visit my blog at http://oddco.ca/zeroth/zblog

Re: [pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready for testing

[Evan Kroske]

A trivial design suggestion: I think that you should give an indication of
rollover on the main navigation bar. Right now, there's no indication that
you're hovering over a navigation link except the pointer cursor. I'm not
sure if an underline or a color change would be better, but there should be
some indicator, IMHO.Good job so far; I like the strong alignment.

Evan Kroske

[pygame] Pygame Website Rewrite: First alpha version ready for testing

[jug]

Hello,

A first version of the rewritten pygame.org website is ready for testing:

   http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/

Main focus is on project management and user system. News are also
yet available. Feel free to register or log in with guest/guest, create and
edit projects, releases, screenshots and your profile or vote the
(dummy-)project of the month.

Devon is still working on the design and often changes it.

For development organization we use Trac and a mailing list at google 
groups.

More information at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/.

If you spot any bugs or have an idea for this first version thats not
already on our ToDo list (http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/ToDo)
create a ticket.

There was a problem with email and Trac, but now, all registration
and email stuff should work.

Regards,
Julian

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Lenard Lindstrom]

Hi,

lxml parses the html to an xml ElementTree structure. It is also a validating 
parser, so a restrictived DTD could be provided to reject scripts. Or the tree 
could just be searched.

Lenard

Quoting René Dudfield :
> yeah should be mostly simple...
> 
> the website also uses some stuff to filter out things like javascript.
> Hopefully there is something similar available for python now.  Does lxml
> support that?  Failing that, will have to convert one of the ones from php.
> feedparser in python is pretty good for that... however it still has some
> problems.
> 
> It's a must for user submitted website content, no matter the markup
> language.
> 
> cu,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 7:28 AM, Lenard Lindstrom  wrote:
> 
> > Sanitising will be simple. I have tried lxml. Of course there is also
> > beautifulsoup. Another issue is maintaining consistently across pages.
> Using
> >  tags doesn't work. Remembering what header level to use when is
> > bothersome. If new, more descriptive, header tags could be added that
> would
> > be great. And a preview function.
> >
> > Lenard
> >
> > René Dudfield wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I suggest using the current one - rewritten in python, and fixing that
> >> bug.  I think that's the only code mangling bug it has?
> >>
> >> Yeah, the code in the wiki is probably best described as non-strict
> >> html... or just html... which is not strict itself.  The wiki does some
> >> sanitising on the html after entry.  It's only a few lines of code to add
> a
> >> gui editor like tinymce... so we could add that for those who don't want
> to
> >> use markup.
> >>
> >> cheers,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom
>  >> le...@telus.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >>Hi René,
> >>
> >>I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla
> >>difficult as it requires report generation. How to get a listing
> >>of recent bugs is not obvious.
> >>
> >>The html markup in the current wiki is not strict XHTML. We do
> >>want the new site to generate properly formed XHTML pages, or am I
> >>mistaken. Also Python code gets mangled, '<' replaced with '<'
> >>for  sections. This is probably a data entry problem though.
> >>But whatever wiki engine is chosen it has to handle this properly.
> >>Trac does. Do any of the html tag wikis handle it right? What
> >>alternate wiki do you suggest?
> >>
> >>Lenard
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>René Dudfield wrote:
> >>
> >>hi,
> >>
> >>the main way we do bugs with pygame is through the mailing
> >>list.  The internet is a bug tracker.
> >>
> >>I wrote a blog post about the reasons why the mailing list is
> >>good, and what 'the internet is a bug tracker' means:
> >>http://renesd.blogspot.com/2008/02/bugs-search-not-categorise.html
> >>
> >>I personally think trac is a bit rubbish, and have been happy
> >>with James Paige hosting bugzilla for us.
> >>
> >>
> >>The current pygame wiki just uses simple html.  So should be
> >>fairly straight forward to convert... or we could just leave
> >>it in html.  Since most programmers know html anyway... way
> >>more than trac markup.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> 


-- 
Lenard Lindstrom

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[René Dudfield]

yeah should be mostly simple...

the website also uses some stuff to filter out things like javascript.
Hopefully there is something similar available for python now.  Does lxml
support that?  Failing that, will have to convert one of the ones from php.
feedparser in python is pretty good for that... however it still has some
problems.

It's a must for user submitted website content, no matter the markup
language.

cu,




On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 7:28 AM, Lenard Lindstrom  wrote:

> Sanitising will be simple. I have tried lxml. Of course there is also
> beautifulsoup. Another issue is maintaining consistently across pages. Using
>  tags doesn't work. Remembering what header level to use when is
> bothersome. If new, more descriptive, header tags could be added that would
> be great. And a preview function.
>
> Lenard
>
> René Dudfield wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I suggest using the current one - rewritten in python, and fixing that
>> bug.  I think that's the only code mangling bug it has?
>>
>> Yeah, the code in the wiki is probably best described as non-strict
>> html... or just html... which is not strict itself.  The wiki does some
>> sanitising on the html after entry.  It's only a few lines of code to add a
>> gui editor like tinymce... so we could add that for those who don't want to
>> use markup.
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom > le...@telus.net>> wrote:
>>
>>Hi René,
>>
>>I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla
>>difficult as it requires report generation. How to get a listing
>>of recent bugs is not obvious.
>>
>>The html markup in the current wiki is not strict XHTML. We do
>>want the new site to generate properly formed XHTML pages, or am I
>>mistaken. Also Python code gets mangled, '<' replaced with '<'
>>for  sections. This is probably a data entry problem though.
>>But whatever wiki engine is chosen it has to handle this properly.
>>Trac does. Do any of the html tag wikis handle it right? What
>>alternate wiki do you suggest?
>>
>>Lenard
>>
>>
>>
>>René Dudfield wrote:
>>
>>hi,
>>
>>the main way we do bugs with pygame is through the mailing
>>list.  The internet is a bug tracker.
>>
>>I wrote a blog post about the reasons why the mailing list is
>>good, and what 'the internet is a bug tracker' means:
>>http://renesd.blogspot.com/2008/02/bugs-search-not-categorise.html
>>
>>I personally think trac is a bit rubbish, and have been happy
>>with James Paige hosting bugzilla for us.
>>
>>
>>The current pygame wiki just uses simple html.  So should be
>>fairly straight forward to convert... or we could just leave
>>it in html.  Since most programmers know html anyway... way
>>more than trac markup.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

[pygame] pygame website source code

[René Dudfield]

hellos,

here's the pygame.org website source code...

http://rene.f0o.com/~rene/pygame.tgz
MD5 (pygame.tgz) = 1c90076a4927fed5594b36a4dc8b52e0


The database will be coming once it is cleaned up... to remove any
private/personal information... and it gets double checked by someone else
too.  Maybe a few more days for it to be ready.

Thanks to Phil for preparing the source code, and to Marcus for helping me
to check it for personal/private info.



cheers!

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Lenard Lindstrom]

Sanitising will be simple. I have tried lxml. Of course there is also 
beautifulsoup. Another issue is maintaining consistently across pages. 
Using  tags doesn't work. Remembering what header level to use when 
is bothersome. If new, more descriptive, header tags could be added that 
would be great. And a preview function.


Lenard

René Dudfield wrote:

Hi,

I suggest using the current one - rewritten in python, and fixing that 
bug.  I think that's the only code mangling bug it has?


Yeah, the code in the wiki is probably best described as non-strict 
html... or just html... which is not strict itself.  The wiki does 
some sanitising on the html after entry.  It's only a few lines of 
code to add a gui editor like tinymce... so we could add that for 
those who don't want to use markup.


cheers,



On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom > wrote:


Hi René,

I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla
difficult as it requires report generation. How to get a listing
of recent bugs is not obvious.

The html markup in the current wiki is not strict XHTML. We do
want the new site to generate properly formed XHTML pages, or am I
mistaken. Also Python code gets mangled, '<' replaced with '<'
for  sections. This is probably a data entry problem though.
But whatever wiki engine is chosen it has to handle this properly.
Trac does. Do any of the html tag wikis handle it right? What
alternate wiki do you suggest?

Lenard



René Dudfield wrote:

hi,

the main way we do bugs with pygame is through the mailing
list.  The internet is a bug tracker.

I wrote a blog post about the reasons why the mailing list is
good, and what 'the internet is a bug tracker' means:
http://renesd.blogspot.com/2008/02/bugs-search-not-categorise.html

I personally think trac is a bit rubbish, and have been happy
with James Paige hosting bugzilla for us.


The current pygame wiki just uses simple html.  So should be
fairly straight forward to convert... or we could just leave
it in html.  Since most programmers know html anyway... way
more than trac markup.

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Lenard Lindstrom]

Hi,

Thanks for the link to the bug tracker main page. A bug tracker may not 
be the most productive way to discover reported bug but what it does 
organize the repair effort. The mailing list has worked so far, but is 
not a good place to search out the current status of a bug. It also 
leaves us reliant on gmane.org, the only mailing list archive of the two 
listed with a proper search option. Even if Pygame does not get a bug 
tracker its website's framework will, or at least it will while under 
development.


Lenard


René Dudfield wrote:



On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom > wrote:


Hi René,

I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla
difficult as it requires report generation. How to get a listing
of recent bugs is not obvious.



hi again,

This is the page which makes bugzilla easier to use.  It has links to 
the main things it's used for.

http://pygame.motherhamster.org/

I do note however that it has been maintained quite well by James 
Paige... in that the website hasn't had much downtime, and it isn't 
full of spam which seems to happen to some trac instances.


However, as I mentioned before I'm not really interested in bug 
trackers... preferring to search for bugs... so I'll leave that choice 
up to the rest of you.  I think there's more bugs reported if you 
search for 'pygame bug' (with only the last months/week/day entries 
listed) in google, than get reported in bug trackers.

eg.
http://www.google.com/search?q=pygame+bug&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=w&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi= 





cu,

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Marcus von Appen]

On, Sun Apr 26, 2009, Rene Dudfield wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom  wrote:
> 
> > Hi René,
> >
> > I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla difficult as
> > it requires report generation. How to get a listing of recent bugs is not
> > obvious.
> >

Seconded - bugzilla is a pain due to various reasons, be it its high
complexity, the need to register and the really weird 'do not simply
file a bug' avoidance.

The main reason to use trac would be to have a lot of features in one
well-maintained and solid system. The wiki, milestone management and
such stuff (suitable for gsoc tasks and subprojects) and even a good bug
tracker are something to favour over an own hackish solution in my
opinion.

We won't need to implement a wiki ourselves as trac comes with it. A bug
tracker for those who do not like mailing lists would be given, - one
that does not require a master degree in report generation and bug
filing management to use it (*).

[...]
 
> I do note however that it has been maintained quite well by James Paige...
> in that the website hasn't had much downtime, and it isn't full of spam
> which seems to happen to some trac instances.

I only noticed that for projects, which are mostly stalled or where the
whole website seems to be completely unmaintained or dead.

If spam from anonymous users should go out of hands, we can change trac
to accept only registered users for bug reports (which'd be a pity,
though).
 
> However, as I mentioned before I'm not really interested in bug trackers...
> preferring to search for bugs... so I'll leave that choice up to the rest of

I'm preferring the mailing list, but some people do not want to
subscribe there or whatever and for those a small bug tracker is the
perfect solution.

(*) Many people, including me are pretty annoyed by bugzilla and a lot
do not even report bugs (including me) to projects like mozilla anymore,
as they do not want to register yet another account just for a short
bug, for which they even have to spend half a day on filling out all
boxes.

Regards
Marcus


pgpcK5jLztZse.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[René Dudfield]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom  wrote:

> Hi René,
>
> I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla difficult as
> it requires report generation. How to get a listing of recent bugs is not
> obvious.
>


hi again,

This is the page which makes bugzilla easier to use.  It has links to the
main things it's used for.
http://pygame.motherhamster.org/

I do note however that it has been maintained quite well by James Paige...
in that the website hasn't had much downtime, and it isn't full of spam
which seems to happen to some trac instances.

However, as I mentioned before I'm not really interested in bug trackers...
preferring to search for bugs... so I'll leave that choice up to the rest of
you.  I think there's more bugs reported if you search for 'pygame bug'
(with only the last months/week/day entries listed) in google, than get
reported in bug trackers.
eg.
http://www.google.com/search?q=pygame+bug&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=w&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=



cu,

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[René Dudfield]

hi,

sorry if my emails come across as not being thankful, or appreciative of
your efforts... little pygame is my baby(and is many other peoples baby too
of course), so I'm maybe overly protective of it.

Thanks partly to you(and others), and your enthusiasm the project seems like
it might actually get done, and it is very much appreciated by me and
everyone else I'm sure.


On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:52 PM, jug  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm kinda amazed about some points:
>
> 1) Did anyone read my concept?
>   Some of the discussed ideas here I had before but no one cared.
>

> 2) I created a trac an you said "nice!" and created a Google project.
>

Thanks for progressive way you went forward and are getting things done.

However, this will be a team effort, and we need to discuss our plan before
doing things.

I don't really know you, and I was a little worried you might disappear in a
week/month.  Whereas a google site won't just disappear.  I'm not saying
that you would disappear... just that it's very common for people to
disappear on open source projects.

There's no need to rush into making a decision about what we want to do with
the website.  One of the main goals of the rewrite was so that more pygame
contributors could modify the websites code.  Three active contributors to
pygame have expressed a preference for using cherrypy(pymike, nick, and I).
pymike doesn't write code for pygame itself, but has put more games/projects
on the pygame website than almost any other person(him and Ian seem to be in
a race to produce the most things).  pymike also expressed interest in
working on the website in late January.

The three main 'clients' for this project are...
 - the coders who make pygame,
 - the people who make games with pygame,
 - and the people who contribute to the website.

So whilst it's important that the people making the website are happy with
the choice of tools, it's also important the other main groups are happy
with the choices.

As one of the people contributing to pygame for the longest time, I want to
make sure the website is done nicely, and is an improvement to the current
one.  It's probably the most important part of pygame, so I think it
deserves some more discussion.






> 3) This project was an gsoc candidate and AFAIK all applicants wanted
>   to use Django. At least 2 of them (Orcun and me) would like to do it
>   even without google. Now you say "let's do it with cherrypy" because
>   you don't know Django. Hm. I my view, both - Django and cherrypy -
>   are mighty enough for our needs, thus its a relig. question of faith. But
> you
>   asked so to do it. So, here we are! We have time and (only) want to do it
>   with Django, cause we don't know cherrypy as you don't know Django.
>   Maybe here are some php-experts why do it with php?
>


Yes, however there's also other people interested in working on the website.

Rather than have you decide what is used, we need to have a discussion.  I
didn't know you didn't like cherrypy or not... and I don't know yet what
other people want to use.

btw, I have looked at django in the past.  Here you can see a post I made in
2006 about some security problems I found in Django
http://renesd.blogspot.com/2006/08/django-security.html  I mention this just
to show that I'm not entirely unfamiliar with django.

Let me explain some history, and further outline parts of the current
website...




The current website is made with PHP and some website technology made by
Phil which he used to make dozens of websites professionaly.  This is what
Phil chose to use as the website maintainer in early 2005.  This time around
we wanted to make it a team effort, and to make it in python.  Last time
we(the mailing list and Pete Shinners) decided to let whoever the website
maintainer is make it in whatever they wanted to make it with.  The main
goal was to get a good website.

This time we decided it would be better to do it in python, and also have a
team of website maintainers.  Since not so many pygame developers people
know PHP, and that has meant that it's been a bit difficult for us to make
changes... we had to bother Phil mostly to change things.  Luckily the
website has worked fairly well without needing to make all that many changes
to the code.  It's pretty amazing really what Phil has done with the
website, and especially considering how it has worked for many years without
many code changes, and is now a very popular website.

Before 2005, the project was more Pete Shinners personal project with a
bunch of helpers... now it has evolved into group project with 8 or so main
fairly active contributors, and a whole bunch of sometimes contributors...
with millions of downloads, 10,000's of people using it to make things, and
millions of people playing the games made with pygame.  There's over 1100
projects listed on pygame.org.  Now both Pete, and Phil have somewhat moved
onto other things from pygame, but both pop their heads in occasionally...
and

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[René Dudfield]

Hi,

I suggest using the current one - rewritten in python, and fixing that bug.
I think that's the only code mangling bug it has?

Yeah, the code in the wiki is probably best described as non-strict html...
or just html... which is not strict itself.  The wiki does some sanitising
on the html after entry.  It's only a few lines of code to add a gui editor
like tinymce... so we could add that for those who don't want to use markup.

cheers,



On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Lenard Lindstrom  wrote:

> Hi René,
>
> I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla difficult as
> it requires report generation. How to get a listing of recent bugs is not
> obvious.
>
> The html markup in the current wiki is not strict XHTML. We do want the new
> site to generate properly formed XHTML pages, or am I mistaken. Also Python
> code gets mangled, '<' replaced with '<' for  sections. This is
> probably a data entry problem though. But whatever wiki engine is chosen it
> has to handle this properly. Trac does. Do any of the html tag wikis handle
> it right? What alternate wiki do you suggest?
>
> Lenard
>
>
>
> René Dudfield wrote:
>
>> hi,
>>
>> the main way we do bugs with pygame is through the mailing list.  The
>> internet is a bug tracker.
>>
>> I wrote a blog post about the reasons why the mailing list is good, and
>> what 'the internet is a bug tracker' means:
>> http://renesd.blogspot.com/2008/02/bugs-search-not-categorise.html
>>
>> I personally think trac is a bit rubbish, and have been happy with James
>> Paige hosting bugzilla for us.
>>
>>
>> The current pygame wiki just uses simple html.  So should be fairly
>> straight forward to convert... or we could just leave it in html.  Since
>> most programmers know html anyway... way more than trac markup.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Lenard Lindstrom]

Hi René,

I don't know about Trac's tracking system but I find bugzilla difficult 
as it requires report generation. How to get a listing of recent bugs is 
not obvious.


The html markup in the current wiki is not strict XHTML. We do want the 
new site to generate properly formed XHTML pages, or am I mistaken. Also 
Python code gets mangled, '<' replaced with '<' for  sections. 
This is probably a data entry problem though. But whatever wiki engine 
is chosen it has to handle this properly. Trac does. Do any of the html 
tag wikis handle it right? What alternate wiki do you suggest?


Lenard


René Dudfield wrote:

hi,

the main way we do bugs with pygame is through the mailing list.  The 
internet is a bug tracker.


I wrote a blog post about the reasons why the mailing list is good, 
and what 'the internet is a bug tracker' means:

http://renesd.blogspot.com/2008/02/bugs-search-not-categorise.html

I personally think trac is a bit rubbish, and have been happy with 
James Paige hosting bugzilla for us.



The current pygame wiki just uses simple html.  So should be fairly 
straight forward to convert... or we could just leave it in html.  
Since most programmers know html anyway... way more than trac markup.

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Lenard Lindstrom]

jug wrote:


Hi,

using Trac with google SVN is not directly provided, but could be 
done. You need
to mirror the repo on the server where Trac is running on. Because you 
have

no access to SVN-hook scripts at google it's a bit tricky. Have a look at
http://rc98.net/googsvnsync. I'm not a SVN expert so who could 
undertake this?


We are still waiting for the current database structure, but I think 
it will be
possible to import old wiki data. At http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/script 
are some
scripts to import wiki data from other wikis (eg. MoinToTrac). I think 
we could

write an equal script.

- Jug
Not having direct google SVN access from Trac is not a big deal. And 
certainly something can be figured out with for the wiki pages. It is 
not a new problem.


--
Lenard Lindstrom

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[René Dudfield]

hi,

the main way we do bugs with pygame is through the mailing list.  The
internet is a bug tracker.

I wrote a blog post about the reasons why the mailing list is good, and what
'the internet is a bug tracker' means:
http://renesd.blogspot.com/2008/02/bugs-search-not-categorise.html

I personally think trac is a bit rubbish, and have been happy with James
Paige hosting bugzilla for us.


The current pygame wiki just uses simple html.  So should be fairly straight
forward to convert... or we could just leave it in html.  Since most
programmers know html anyway... way more than trac markup.



On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Nirav Patel  wrote:

> All I have to add to this is that having real bug tracking integrated
> with the SVN is a huge plus and if possible, should be put into place
> as soon as possible.  That is, having Trac up on dev.pygame.org before
> starting the web development work for use with both the website
> project and Pygame in general would be nice.
>
> I really dislike the Bugzilla we are currently using, and judging by
> the lack of activity on it, I imagine many others do too.
>
> Nirav
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Lenard Lindstrom 
> wrote:
> > Marcus von Appen wrote:
> >>
> >> After discussing certain things with Julian, something like this might
> >> make the most sense:
> >>
> >> SVN hosting on google.
> >>
> >> Trac (which I'd prefer over google's homebrewn software) on
> >> dev.pygame.org.
> >>
> >> Why that? First of all, one of the website requirements is to have a bug
> >> tracker and wiki integrated instead of having anything hosted on
> >> different domains as it is at the moment.
> >>
> >> dev.pygame.org could act as central platform for pygame-related
> >> development. Users can keep track of pygame projects, which are in a
> >> planning and early development state and the trac system running there
> >> can act as routing station to the different SVN repositories hosted
> >> elsewhere (google, pygame, ...).
> >>
> >> In the long term, this also allows us to have a development wiki and bug
> >> tracking already around and the only thing left to do would be to
> >> integrate them seamlessly into the final pygame.org website.
> >>
> >> For the current time, we could redirect dev.pygame.org to Julian's
> >> webserver, then, once trac is up and running on pygame.org (which
> should
> >> be relatively easy to be realised), let it point to the local trac. That
> >> way we have no dead URL mess and people do not need to visit various
> >> sites (and create different accounts) just to file bugs for (either)
> >> pygame project.
> >>
> >> We also do not have the data scattered ony google's wiki, pygame.organd
> >> wherever else.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Keeping the web site development on a separate site, google, seem
> > appropriate for now. I have just been looking again at Trac and at first
> it
> > looks like a good choice. The wiki has a clean markup that accepts Python
> > code without mangling it. But I have two questions. One, how easy will it
> be
> > to import the existing Pygame wiki pages into Trac? Two, can we really
> use
> > the Trac with the Web SVN and Pygame SVN? (*)
> >
> > Lenard
> >
> > (*) I believe no to the first, yes to the second
> > (http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracInstall#OptionalRequirements).
> >
>

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[jug]

Hi,

I just got the DjangoAuthIntegration (1) Trac plugin working. With this
plugin, you can login to Django, go to Trac and are logged in (without
reentering username and password). After logging out at Django,
you are logged out with Trac, too. Thats really cool.
Now need some testing.

-Jug


(1) http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/DjangoAuthIntegration

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[jug]

Hi,

using Trac with google SVN is not directly provided, but could be done. 
You need

to mirror the repo on the server where Trac is running on. Because you have
no access to SVN-hook scripts at google it's a bit tricky. Have a look at
http://rc98.net/googsvnsync. I'm not a SVN expert so who could undertake 
this?


We are still waiting for the current database structure, but I think it 
will be
possible to import old wiki data. At http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/script 
are some
scripts to import wiki data from other wikis (eg. MoinToTrac). I think 
we could

write an equal script.

- Jug

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Lenard Lindstrom]

I agree that a Pygame bug tracker on the Pygame site is a priority. Trac 
looks good for that. The wiki will be useful as well. But the Trac 
subversion features will be useless with a google SVN for the web site 
development. So we will have to use whatever google offers. But I 
believe we can set it up for Pygame's SVN.


Lenard

Nirav Patel wrote:

All I have to add to this is that having real bug tracking integrated
with the SVN is a huge plus and if possible, should be put into place
as soon as possible.  That is, having Trac up on dev.pygame.org before
starting the web development work for use with both the website
project and Pygame in general would be nice.

I really dislike the Bugzilla we are currently using, and judging by
the lack of activity on it, I imagine many others do too.

Nirav

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Lenard Lindstrom  wrote:
  

Marcus von Appen wrote:


After discussing certain things with Julian, something like this might
make the most sense:

SVN hosting on google.

Trac (which I'd prefer over google's homebrewn software) on
dev.pygame.org.

Why that? First of all, one of the website requirements is to have a bug
tracker and wiki integrated instead of having anything hosted on
different domains as it is at the moment.

dev.pygame.org could act as central platform for pygame-related
development. Users can keep track of pygame projects, which are in a
planning and early development state and the trac system running there
can act as routing station to the different SVN repositories hosted
elsewhere (google, pygame, ...).

In the long term, this also allows us to have a development wiki and bug
tracking already around and the only thing left to do would be to
integrate them seamlessly into the final pygame.org website.

For the current time, we could redirect dev.pygame.org to Julian's
webserver, then, once trac is up and running on pygame.org (which should
be relatively easy to be realised), let it point to the local trac. That
way we have no dead URL mess and people do not need to visit various
sites (and create different accounts) just to file bugs for (either)
pygame project.

We also do not have the data scattered ony google's wiki, pygame.org and
wherever else.


  

Keeping the web site development on a separate site, google, seem
appropriate for now. I have just been looking again at Trac and at first it
looks like a good choice. The wiki has a clean markup that accepts Python
code without mangling it. But I have two questions. One, how easy will it be
to import the existing Pygame wiki pages into Trac? Two, can we really use
the Trac with the Web SVN and Pygame SVN? (*)

Lenard

(*) I believe no to the first, yes to the second
(http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracInstall#OptionalRequirements).

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Lenard Lindstrom]

Are we already at the point where we can choose a framework? I am not 
experienced enough in this area to make a recommendation. I will look at 
them more closely. Django is favored at the new Pygame web site 
development Trac. Of major consideration is the ease with which the 
content of the existing site can be ported to the new site. I cannot 
even comment on that as I don't know how the existing site is 
implemented, though I guess Python is involved somewhere.


As for what I can contribute, I am taking this more as a learning 
opportunity than anything. I could probably write applications to port 
information and maybe convert wiki to pages if something doesn't already 
exist. But I will leave the framework stuff to others. I have also 
played around a bit with PovRay so could create some simple 3D effect 
controls like in the midi.py Pygame example.


Lenard


René Dudfield wrote:

Hi,

very detailed emails from Marcus and Nicholas...

a few related points below.


I'd be interested in knowing what jug, and orcun think of using 
Django?  Also what they think of a cherrypy based stack?


Also, what are the preferences of Lenard, Devon, pymike, and anyone 
else who is interested in contributing?  Please state the level of 
commitment you're willing to make, and also which option(s) you'd be 
happy using.





- The main author of cherrypy(Robert Brewer) said he'd help us with 
any major issues we had, and so did some other cherrypy mailing list 
people.  The cherrypy mailing list is also more active than the pygame 
one, so I'm sure we won't have any issues with docs or help.


- documentation is extensive for cherrypy(it's a 10 year old project, 
in it's third generation).


- we would have to choose a stack.  The stack Nicholas mentioned seems 
pretty common, cherrypy + sqlalchemy + genshi + formencode/formalchemy 
+ pygame of course for imaging... and joysick control of the 
website.   So that is the stack we would be chosing.


- cherrypy code seems cleaner... as it's just python objects.

class MySite(object):
def index(self):
return "hello world!"

def news(self, id=None):
if id is None:
return main_news()
else:
return specific_news(id)

index.exposed = True
news.exposed = True

This creates these urls by default:
/
/index
/news
/news/10
/news?id=10


- cherrypy has less code compared to django, and is changing less.

- django is usually run using apache modpython or mod_wsgi, or even 
with cherrypy(or other wsgi server).  They don't recommend using the 
bundled django webserver.  Whereas cherrypy is considered one of, if 
not the best python web servers.  With cherrypy you use the same 
webserver for development, and for production.


- you can run cherrypy inside a pygame application.  Cherrypy doesn't 
control the main loop if you don't want it to.


- there are more wsgi components than there are pinax apps.  Also 
pinax apps should theoretically be able to play with wsgi.  I'm pretty 
sure you can use django apps as wsgi components now too.

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Nirav Patel]

All I have to add to this is that having real bug tracking integrated
with the SVN is a huge plus and if possible, should be put into place
as soon as possible.  That is, having Trac up on dev.pygame.org before
starting the web development work for use with both the website
project and Pygame in general would be nice.

I really dislike the Bugzilla we are currently using, and judging by
the lack of activity on it, I imagine many others do too.

Nirav

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Lenard Lindstrom  wrote:
> Marcus von Appen wrote:
>>
>> After discussing certain things with Julian, something like this might
>> make the most sense:
>>
>> SVN hosting on google.
>>
>> Trac (which I'd prefer over google's homebrewn software) on
>> dev.pygame.org.
>>
>> Why that? First of all, one of the website requirements is to have a bug
>> tracker and wiki integrated instead of having anything hosted on
>> different domains as it is at the moment.
>>
>> dev.pygame.org could act as central platform for pygame-related
>> development. Users can keep track of pygame projects, which are in a
>> planning and early development state and the trac system running there
>> can act as routing station to the different SVN repositories hosted
>> elsewhere (google, pygame, ...).
>>
>> In the long term, this also allows us to have a development wiki and bug
>> tracking already around and the only thing left to do would be to
>> integrate them seamlessly into the final pygame.org website.
>>
>> For the current time, we could redirect dev.pygame.org to Julian's
>> webserver, then, once trac is up and running on pygame.org (which should
>> be relatively easy to be realised), let it point to the local trac. That
>> way we have no dead URL mess and people do not need to visit various
>> sites (and create different accounts) just to file bugs for (either)
>> pygame project.
>>
>> We also do not have the data scattered ony google's wiki, pygame.org and
>> wherever else.
>>
>>
>
> Keeping the web site development on a separate site, google, seem
> appropriate for now. I have just been looking again at Trac and at first it
> looks like a good choice. The wiki has a clean markup that accepts Python
> code without mangling it. But I have two questions. One, how easy will it be
> to import the existing Pygame wiki pages into Trac? Two, can we really use
> the Trac with the Web SVN and Pygame SVN? (*)
>
> Lenard
>
> (*) I believe no to the first, yes to the second
> (http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracInstall#OptionalRequirements).
>

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Lenard Lindstrom]

Marcus von Appen wrote:

After discussing certain things with Julian, something like this might
make the most sense:

SVN hosting on google.

Trac (which I'd prefer over google's homebrewn software) on dev.pygame.org.

Why that? First of all, one of the website requirements is to have a bug
tracker and wiki integrated instead of having anything hosted on
different domains as it is at the moment.

dev.pygame.org could act as central platform for pygame-related
development. Users can keep track of pygame projects, which are in a
planning and early development state and the trac system running there
can act as routing station to the different SVN repositories hosted
elsewhere (google, pygame, ...).

In the long term, this also allows us to have a development wiki and bug
tracking already around and the only thing left to do would be to
integrate them seamlessly into the final pygame.org website.

For the current time, we could redirect dev.pygame.org to Julian's
webserver, then, once trac is up and running on pygame.org (which should
be relatively easy to be realised), let it point to the local trac. That
way we have no dead URL mess and people do not need to visit various
sites (and create different accounts) just to file bugs for (either)
pygame project.

We also do not have the data scattered ony google's wiki, pygame.org and
wherever else.

  
Keeping the web site development on a separate site, google, seem 
appropriate for now. I have just been looking again at Trac and at first 
it looks like a good choice. The wiki has a clean markup that accepts 
Python code without mangling it. But I have two questions. One, how easy 
will it be to import the existing Pygame wiki pages into Trac? Two, can 
we really use the Trac with the Web SVN and Pygame SVN? (*)


Lenard

(*) I believe no to the first, yes to the second 
(http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracInstall#OptionalRequirements).

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Evan Kroske]

jug wrote:


One of the few weaknesses of Django
is that it does not support subdomains. Thus, pygame.org/dev would
be much easier to handle.


Unless I misunderstood, everybody was saying that someone should create 
a subdomain with the server administrator tools and simply run Django 
from there. I don't think they want Django running in the top-level web 
directory and creating a dev subdomain. If you're saying that Django 
can't be confined to a single directory and that it must be run from the 
top-level web directory, I have nothing to add.


Regards,
Evan Kroske

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[sheepjxx]

Intresting, I just start to study Django, I think it is really a
nice tools.

--
From: "jug" 
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:26 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite


There's one problem remaining. One of the few weaknesses of Django
is that it does not support subdomains. Thus, pygame.org/dev would
be much easier to handle.
To concretize, please specify the structure again. What would Trac be
used for? Replace the current wiki and add a ticket system for bug-tracing
and more (enhancements, etc)?
So, the rough structure would be

Django
 - News
 - Flatpages
 - Projects
Trac
 - Wiki
 - Ticket system
 - code browser
 - (maybe more?)

I'm going to test the django-trac thing today. If we use now my Trac 
please
try to keep the concept up to date and edit it with our discussion 
results.


- Jug



<http://www.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/weakness.html>

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[jug]

There's one problem remaining. One of the few weaknesses of Django
is that it does not support subdomains. Thus, pygame.org/dev would
be much easier to handle.
To concretize, please specify the structure again. What would Trac be
used for? Replace the current wiki and add a ticket system for bug-tracing
and more (enhancements, etc)?
So, the rough structure would be

Django
 - News
 - Flatpages
 - Projects
Trac
 - Wiki
 - Ticket system
 - code browser
 - (maybe more?)

I'm going to test the django-trac thing today. If we use now my Trac please
try to keep the concept up to date and edit it with our discussion results.

- Jug

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Nicholas Dudfield]

Marcus von Appen wrote:

On, Sat Apr 25, 2009, Nicholas Dudfield wrote:

  
I doubt I'd be contributing in any form whatsoever if Django is used.  I 
have no real interest in learning it.


If Robert Brewer has personally promised assistance that would be a very 
good case for using CherryPy.



Well, I'd like to keep the decision those, who will do the major work on
the whole website system, which probably will be Julian and Orcun.

If they both say, Django is their preferred target system (and the GSoC
proposals were written that way) as they have a lot of expertise, we
should not insist on CherryPy :-).

Regards
Marcus
  

In full:
"""
I doubt I'd be contributing in any form whatsoever if Django is used.  I 
have no real interest in learning it.


If Robert Brewer has personally promised assistance that would be a very 
good case for using CherryPy.


*As time permits I might* be able to help somewhat if a CherryPy stack 
is used.


I personally much prefer CherryPy + Co over what I have seen of Django 
*but I doubt I'll be contributing much compared to others.*"""



I actually took time out  of my day to argue the case for using Django.

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Nicholas Dudfield]

I'm actually for you guys using Django.

"""
If most of the people that are motivated to do the work already have experience
with Django I think it would just be more work for all involved using a custom
CherryPy stack.

Contributors would have to follow the evolving `framework`. They'd have to spend
time documenting it if they wanted to make it easy for more people to
contribute. They'd likely waste time arguing over the best ways of doing things
and which components to use. Would it ever get done? Or would everyone just get
sick of it?

For an opensource project with potentially quite a few people working on it (The
more the better right?) then I'd say Django would be a good fit due to the
`free` unified documentation and resources surrounding it and the fact that
every one is on the same page.
"""

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:52 PM, jug  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm kinda amazed about some points:
>
> 1) Did anyone read my concept?
>   Some of the discussed ideas here I had before but no one cared.
>
> 2) I created a trac an you said "nice!" and created a Google project.
>
> 3) This project was an gsoc candidate and AFAIK all applicants wanted
>   to use Django. At least 2 of them (Orcun and me) would like to do it
>   even without google. Now you say "let's do it with cherrypy" because
>   you don't know Django. Hm. I my view, both - Django and cherrypy -
>   are mighty enough for our needs, thus its a relig. question of faith. But
> you
>   asked so to do it. So, here we are! We have time and (only) want to do it
>   with Django, cause we don't know cherrypy as you don't know Django.
>   Maybe here are some php-experts why do it with php?
>
> 4) Even if you don't know Django, you can participate by helping to develop
>   the concept, writing specific requirements, care about design, read the
>   old code, transfer it and write new templates (Django templates are really
>   easy to learn). If we use Trac the way things are going, there will be
> some
>   work on adapting it by editing the Trac templates and style to make it fit
>   into the whole page. Then, care about plugins that could be useful or
>   necessary (auth, notification, feeds, irc-announcer, ...). Be sure you can
> help
>   us even when using Django for the backend.
>
> Regards
> Jug
>
> PS, well, I'm a slow writer, so I agree with Marcus.
>
>
>

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[jug]

Hello,

I'm kinda amazed about some points:

1) Did anyone read my concept?
   Some of the discussed ideas here I had before but no one cared.

2) I created a trac an you said "nice!" and created a Google project.

3) This project was an gsoc candidate and AFAIK all applicants wanted
   to use Django. At least 2 of them (Orcun and me) would like to do it
   even without google. Now you say "let's do it with cherrypy" because
   you don't know Django. Hm. I my view, both - Django and cherrypy -
   are mighty enough for our needs, thus its a relig. question of 
faith. But you
   asked so to do it. So, here we are! We have time and (only) want to 
do it

   with Django, cause we don't know cherrypy as you don't know Django.
   Maybe here are some php-experts why do it with php?

4) Even if you don't know Django, you can participate by helping to develop
   the concept, writing specific requirements, care about design, read the
   old code, transfer it and write new templates (Django templates are 
really
   easy to learn). If we use Trac the way things are going, there will 
be some
   work on adapting it by editing the Trac templates and style to make 
it fit

   into the whole page. Then, care about plugins that could be useful or
   necessary (auth, notification, feeds, irc-announcer, ...). Be sure 
you can help

   us even when using Django for the backend.

Regards
Jug

PS, well, I'm a slow writer, so I agree with Marcus.

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Nicholas Dudfield]

On, Sat Apr 25, 2009, Nicholas Dudfield wrote:

  
I doubt I'd be contributing in any form whatsoever if Django is used.  I 
have no real interest in learning it.


If Robert Brewer has personally promised assistance that would be a very 
good case for using CherryPy.



Well, I'd like to keep the decision those, who will do the major work on
the whole website system, which probably will be Julian and Orcun.

If they both say, Django is their preferred target system (and the GSoC
proposals were written that way) as they have a lot of expertise, we
should not insist on CherryPy :-).

Regards
Marcus
  
"Happy programmers are motivated and *productive* programmers" I meant 
to write but I had a brain malfunction.

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Nicholas Dudfield]

Marcus von Appen wrote:

Well, I'd like to keep the decision those, who will do the major work on
the whole website system, which probably will be Julian and Orcun.
  
I am in complete agreeance.  Happy programmers are motivated and 
programmers./

/

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Marcus von Appen]

On, Sat Apr 25, 2009, Nicholas Dudfield wrote:

> I doubt I'd be contributing in any form whatsoever if Django is used.  I 
> have no real interest in learning it.
> 
> If Robert Brewer has personally promised assistance that would be a very 
> good case for using CherryPy.

Well, I'd like to keep the decision those, who will do the major work on
the whole website system, which probably will be Julian and Orcun.

If they both say, Django is their preferred target system (and the GSoC
proposals were written that way) as they have a lot of expertise, we
should not insist on CherryPy :-).

Regards
Marcus


pgpeybUYTDnYX.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Marcus von Appen]

On, Fri Apr 24, 2009, Rene Dudfield wrote:

[...]

> >
> >  Also, is it possible to do this at google code instead?
> >>http://code.google.com/p/pygame/
> >>
> >
> > Sounds reasonable - google already has the whole functionality for the
> > project,
> > Julian currently hosts privately. It might be good to use google's wiki
> > there
> > and a seperate website SVN branch. Especially since the final system could
> > be
> > adopted by other community-driven projects.
> >
> >
> Also lots of people already have google accounts on there, and it's not
> hosted on someones personal server.
> 
> Keeping it separate from the main pygame svn makes sense, since it's
> probably going to be a separate group of people, and also it's fairly easy
> to allow access to it.

After discussing certain things with Julian, something like this might
make the most sense:

SVN hosting on google.

Trac (which I'd prefer over google's homebrewn software) on dev.pygame.org.

Why that? First of all, one of the website requirements is to have a bug
tracker and wiki integrated instead of having anything hosted on
different domains as it is at the moment.

dev.pygame.org could act as central platform for pygame-related
development. Users can keep track of pygame projects, which are in a
planning and early development state and the trac system running there
can act as routing station to the different SVN repositories hosted
elsewhere (google, pygame, ...).

In the long term, this also allows us to have a development wiki and bug
tracking already around and the only thing left to do would be to
integrate them seamlessly into the final pygame.org website.

For the current time, we could redirect dev.pygame.org to Julian's
webserver, then, once trac is up and running on pygame.org (which should
be relatively easy to be realised), let it point to the local trac. That
way we have no dead URL mess and people do not need to visit various
sites (and create different accounts) just to file bugs for (either)
pygame project.

We also do not have the data scattered ony google's wiki, pygame.org and
wherever else.

Regards
Marcus


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Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Nicholas Dudfield]

I doubt I'd be contributing in any form whatsoever if Django is used.  I 
have no real interest in learning it.


If Robert Brewer has personally promised assistance that would be a very 
good case for using CherryPy.


As time permits I might be able to help somewhat if a CherryPy stack is 
used.


I personally much prefer CherryPy + Co over what I have seen of Django 
but I doubt I'll be contributing much compared to others.

Hi,

very detailed emails from Marcus and Nicholas...

a few related points below.


I'd be interested in knowing what jug, and orcun think of using 
Django?  Also what they think of a cherrypy based stack?


Also, what are the preferences of Lenard, Devon, pymike, and anyone 
else who is interested in contributing?  Please state the level of 
commitment you're willing to make, and also which option(s) you'd be 
happy using.





- The main author of cherrypy(Robert Brewer) said he'd help us with 
any major issues we had, and so did some other cherrypy mailing list 
people.  The cherrypy mailing list is also more active than the pygame 
one, so I'm sure we won't have any issues with docs or help.


- documentation is extensive for cherrypy(it's a 10 year old project, 
in it's third generation).


- we would have to choose a stack.  The stack Nicholas mentioned seems 
pretty common, cherrypy + sqlalchemy + genshi + formencode/formalchemy 
+ pygame of course for imaging... and joysick control of the 
website.   So that is the stack we would be chosing.


- cherrypy code seems cleaner... as it's just python objects.

class MySite(object):
def index(self):
return "hello world!"

def news(self, id=None):
if id is None:
return main_news()
else:
return specific_news(id)

index.exposed = True
news.exposed = True

This creates these urls by default:
/
/index
/news
/news/10
/news?id=10


- cherrypy has less code compared to django, and is changing less.

- django is usually run using apache modpython or mod_wsgi, or even 
with cherrypy(or other wsgi server).  They don't recommend using the 
bundled django webserver.  Whereas cherrypy is considered one of, if 
not the best python web servers.  With cherrypy you use the same 
webserver for development, and for production.


- you can run cherrypy inside a pygame application.  Cherrypy doesn't 
control the main loop if you don't want it to.


- there are more wsgi components than there are pinax apps.  Also 
pinax apps should theoretically be able to play with wsgi.  I'm pretty 
sure you can use django apps as wsgi components now too.

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[René Dudfield]

Hi,

very detailed emails from Marcus and Nicholas...

a few related points below.


I'd be interested in knowing what jug, and orcun think of using Django?
Also what they think of a cherrypy based stack?

Also, what are the preferences of Lenard, Devon, pymike, and anyone else who
is interested in contributing?  Please state the level of commitment you're
willing to make, and also which option(s) you'd be happy using.




- The main author of cherrypy(Robert Brewer) said he'd help us with any
major issues we had, and so did some other cherrypy mailing list people.
The cherrypy mailing list is also more active than the pygame one, so I'm
sure we won't have any issues with docs or help.

- documentation is extensive for cherrypy(it's a 10 year old project, in
it's third generation).

- we would have to choose a stack.  The stack Nicholas mentioned seems
pretty common, cherrypy + sqlalchemy + genshi + formencode/formalchemy +
pygame of course for imaging... and joysick control of the website.   So
that is the stack we would be chosing.

- cherrypy code seems cleaner... as it's just python objects.

class MySite(object):
def index(self):
return "hello world!"

def news(self, id=None):
if id is None:
return main_news()
else:
return specific_news(id)

index.exposed = True
news.exposed = True

This creates these urls by default:
/
/index
/news
/news/10
/news?id=10


- cherrypy has less code compared to django, and is changing less.

- django is usually run using apache modpython or mod_wsgi, or even with
cherrypy(or other wsgi server).  They don't recommend using the bundled
django webserver.  Whereas cherrypy is considered one of, if not the best
python web servers.  With cherrypy you use the same webserver for
development, and for production.

- you can run cherrypy inside a pygame application.  Cherrypy doesn't
control the main loop if you don't want it to.

- there are more wsgi components than there are pinax apps.  Also pinax apps
should theoretically be able to play with wsgi.  I'm pretty sure you can use
django apps as wsgi components now too.










On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Nicholas Dudfield wrote:

>
> > I do not know anything about cherrypy, so here're some relevant
> > questions for both frameworks:
> >
> > * How good is the integration of a wiki solution and maybe bug tracking
> >   system without implementing it ourselves?
> > * How good is the integration of other components, which might be
> >   necessary in the future?
> > * How much effort has to be put into it to add new features? Is it just
> >   about adding/enabling a component or writing a whole bunch of code?
> > * What is the key difference between cherrypy (denoted as HTTP
> >   framework) and Django (web framework)?
> >
> >
> I have a little bit of experience with CherryPy and a tiny tiny bit of
> experience with Django. Here is my 2.0 cents.
>
> A while back I read a considerable amount about python frameworks before
> choosing CherryPy
>
> I say I chose CherryPy but that wasn't really the case. That choice was
> made for
> me. I did however choose further components to extend CherryPy with after
> becoming frustrated with `raw` CherryPy and a `raw` DB2 api.
>
> Making pages by concatenating strings is horrible and very resistant to
> change.
> You really want a templating system of some sort where you can integrate
> designers changes nicely or have them do it themselves (concurrently)
>
> You also want to be able to apply any special features your editor has for
> editing html.  Even PHP is better in this respect than `raw` CherryPy for
> anything beyond a `Hello World` toy site.
>
> Enter overwhelming array of choices.  Then you have to find a way of
> integrating
> the templating system with CherryPy.
>
> You'll find you want an ORM/query builder soon enough as writing your own
> (again
> using string building, you just want a small simple one) proves to be
> distracting. Any time you want a feature requiring something beyond your
> home-
> baked lib you have to code something up and write tests for it.
>
> Form handling? Do you want to write a form validation library? No? Spend
> some
> time searching for a good one *with a future*. Pagination? Email? I
> literally
> copy/pasted then modified the code from Django for the latter two.
>
> In short, you end up writing an ad-hoc glue framework on top of CherryPy.
> With
> just one person working on it, you can get away without writing a heap of
> tests
> and documentation. With multiple people working on it you'd really need to
> to
> make sure everyone is on the same page.
>
> Choosing CherryPy won't just be a matter of choosing it and running with
> it,
> it'll also be a matter of choosing more components, how to integrate them
> and
> documenting it.
>
> An advantage of doing it this way, not to be understated, is that you'll
> learn
> how to use those components individually and can apply them elsewhere.
>

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Nicholas Dudfield]

> I do not know anything about cherrypy, so here're some relevant
> questions for both frameworks:
>
> * How good is the integration of a wiki solution and maybe bug tracking
>   system without implementing it ourselves?
> * How good is the integration of other components, which might be
>   necessary in the future?
> * How much effort has to be put into it to add new features? Is it just
>   about adding/enabling a component or writing a whole bunch of code?
> * What is the key difference between cherrypy (denoted as HTTP
>   framework) and Django (web framework)?
>
>   


I have a little bit of experience with CherryPy and a tiny tiny bit of
experience with Django. Here is my 2.0 cents.

A while back I read a considerable amount about python frameworks before
choosing CherryPy

I say I chose CherryPy but that wasn't really the case. That choice was 
made for

me. I did however choose further components to extend CherryPy with after
becoming frustrated with `raw` CherryPy and a `raw` DB2 api.

Making pages by concatenating strings is horrible and very resistant to 
change.

You really want a templating system of some sort where you can integrate
designers changes nicely or have them do it themselves (concurrently)

You also want to be able to apply any special features your editor has for
editing html.  Even PHP is better in this respect than `raw` CherryPy for
anything beyond a `Hello World` toy site.

Enter overwhelming array of choices.  Then you have to find a way of 
integrating

the templating system with CherryPy.

You'll find you want an ORM/query builder soon enough as writing your 
own (again

using string building, you just want a small simple one) proves to be
distracting. Any time you want a feature requiring something beyond your 
home-

baked lib you have to code something up and write tests for it.

Form handling? Do you want to write a form validation library? No? Spend 
some
time searching for a good one *with a future*. Pagination? Email? I 
literally

copy/pasted then modified the code from Django for the latter two.

In short, you end up writing an ad-hoc glue framework on top of 
CherryPy. With
just one person working on it, you can get away without writing a heap 
of tests
and documentation. With multiple people working on it you'd really need 
to to

make sure everyone is on the same page.

Choosing CherryPy won't just be a matter of choosing it and running with it,
it'll also be a matter of choosing more components, how to integrate 
them and

documenting it.

An advantage of doing it this way, not to be understated, is that you'll 
learn

how to use those components individually and can apply them elsewhere.

From what I have read, each of the components in the Django stack have 
superior

respective stand alone alternatives.

eg Django ORM is almost univerally agreed upon to be inferior to SQLAlchemy

Peronally I have used this stack for a few sites:

   Request/Response/Server:  CherryPy
   ORM + Query Generator:SQLAlchemy
   Form Handling:FormEncode
   Templating:   Genshi
   Image Manipulation:   PIL

If I needed to learn TurboGears 2 or Pylons for some reason then I'd already
know many of the pieces. SQLAlchemy, FormEncode, Genshi.

If I need to use database access for anything then SQLAlchemy is very 
useful.
You can introspect existing databases easily and then just define the 
relations
with a few lines of code.  ( sqlalchemy.ext.sqlsoup ) If you define your 
schema
in python then you can automatically build the tables to whatever 
database you

like. SQLLite is useful for in memory test databases.

If I wanted to for some reason create dynamic and perfectly valid xhtml 
based
documents( say for converting to pdf format with Prince XML) then Genshi 
would
be hanging at my toolbelt. If I want to make a TRAC plugin I know how to 
use its

templating language. (The main TRAC developer also designed Genshi )

CherryPy itself has a Tool system for integrating third party components 
and for
abstracting code into reusable `filters`. Builtin Tools include unicode 
codecs,
gzip encoding, json encoding, header modifiers and the like. It has 
quite a nice
configuration framework supporting multiple deployment environments and 
allows

you to target filters right down to the exact page handler. It is a great
foundation to build upon with many points of extensibility. Pure WSGI (which
CherryPy fully supports) is less granular as far as `middleware`.

However you *will* end up having to create a framework, whether it be
consciously written or it just evolves naturally from factoring out 
duplicate
code. Needless to say, the first attempts will be pretty horrible. This, 
on top

of writing the actual site.

The potential advantage to Django is that you are walking a well 
travelled road

and it is well documented. And as it's a full stack framework all the
documentation is in one place, likewise with the `community`.

The #django irc channel almost riv

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Marcus von Appen]

On, Fri Apr 24, 2009, Rene Dudfield wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:06 PM,  wrote:
> 
> > René Dudfield :

[...]
> >>
> >> All the old stuff needs to be written at some point... because we need to
> >> keep all the old urls around (including feeds).  Also it's easier for
> >> people
> >>
> >
> > Is there a way to have some easy to manage URL rewriting/forwarding in
> > Django? That way we could let existing URLS resolve to the new stuff (e.g.
> > place the currently static html sites into the DB and link to them).
> >
> 
> Almost all web toolkits have decent url schemes, and rewriters.  It can also
> be done at the apache, and wsgi levels too.  The current website has a
> pretty good system... where it uses a database of rewrite rules editable
> through the web in the management system... but we can easily use
> mod_rewrite or whatever we need.
> 
> 
> I don't think we have agreed on Django specifically yet.  At least pymike,
> and I have suggested using cherrypy.  Also I know Nicholas has made the last
> few websites he worked on with cherrypy.
> 
> So we should decide this based on what the contributors to the website feel
> is best, and also the people who will maintain it.

I do not know anything about cherrypy, so here're some relevant
questions for both frameworks:

* How good is the integration of a wiki solution and maybe bug tracking
  system without implementing it ourselves?
* How good is the integration of other components, which might be
  necessary in the future?
* How much effort has to be put into it to add new features? Is it just
  about adding/enabling a component or writing a whole bunch of code?
* What is the key difference between cherrypy (denoted as HTTP
  framework) and Django (web framework)? 

> It can be easy to take the existing database and just use that.  This is
> quite easy to do with things like sqlalchemy and the like.

Absolutely no, I'd say. Did you put a look at its contents recently? ;-)
It'd be better to go with a new, clean database (and structure) and
write a set of SQL scripts to migrate the necessary data instead of
taking over anything.

Regards
Marcus


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Description: PGP signature

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Lenard Lindstrom]

Couldn't the color scheme be user configurable? Allow the user choose 
among several options then track the choice with a cookie.


René Dudfield wrote:

Hellos,


On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:06 PM, > wrote:


The current one is already around and was widely tested. Or do I miss
something here?



Yeah, that can be used for lots of things... but not all.  So as to 
test things without messing up the main website... eg adding projects, 
wiki pages, news etc.  Maybe we don't really need to do this... and 
can just look at the code mostly.

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[René Dudfield]

Hellos,


On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:06 PM,  wrote:

> René Dudfield :
>
>  hi,
>>
>> very awesome of you to go ahead with this...
>>
>> I read through your website... and it's got some good ideas...
>>
>> It'll be cool if we can make pygame one of the best sites around in the
>> python scene again... the current one is from around 2005... and has been
>> really good so far.
>>
>
> Well, the colours started to hit some nerves for me, so it might be better
> to go with some pastel colour palette for the new one :-).
>

yeah, perhaps.  We should probably have the graphical design as a separate
step.  So we can choose the best design made available.



>
>
>  Rewriting the current functionality in python first could be a good way to
>> go.  Once the current site is replicated, then move on to other stuff.
>>
>> All the old stuff needs to be written at some point... because we need to
>> keep all the old urls around (including feeds).  Also it's easier for
>> people
>>
>
> Is there a way to have some easy to manage URL rewriting/forwarding in
> Django? That way we could let existing URLS resolve to the new stuff (e.g.
> place the currently static html sites into the DB and link to them).
>

Almost all web toolkits have decent url schemes, and rewriters.  It can also
be done at the apache, and wsgi levels too.  The current website has a
pretty good system... where it uses a database of rewrite rules editable
through the web in the management system... but we can easily use
mod_rewrite or whatever we need.


I don't think we have agreed on Django specifically yet.  At least pymike,
and I have suggested using cherrypy.  Also I know Nicholas has made the last
few websites he worked on with cherrypy.

So we should decide this based on what the contributors to the website feel
is best, and also the people who will maintain it.






>
>  to work towards something that exists, rather than working towards a new
>> design.
>>
>
> A new design is necessary in my opinion. Colours, overall style, etc.
> The functionality though needs to stay the same (with improvements all over
> the place).
>

Sure, but that can happen after the current one is updated.  It's much
easier to make design as a separate stage.

So when reimplementing it we have the current website as a reference.  With
a new graphical design coming afterwards(or designed separately in
parallel).



>
>
>> First steps are to agree on a way forward... but if we go with remaking
>> the
>> existing site... we could follow this path:
>>
>> - prepare html/php/sql from old site.
>> - get old site running outside of the main pygame.org so people can test
>> it
>> easily.
>>
>
> The current one is already around and was widely tested. Or do I miss
> something here?
>


Yeah, that can be used for lots of things... but not all.  So as to test
things without messing up the main website... eg adding projects, wiki
pages, news etc.  Maybe we don't really need to do this... and can just look
at the code mostly.





>
>
>  - decide on which tools we are to use.  The main ones from people
>> interested
>> seem to be a django, or a cherrypy based site.
>> - start writing the models for the various tables, and data types in
>> existing site (eg, project, user, wiki page, etc).
>> - collect a list of existing urls.
>> - collect a list of existing functionality.
>> - collect a list of html/php pages to convert to templates.
>> - start working on list of functionality, and templates until it is
>> complete.
>>
>
> Sounds good to me. Though I'd go with the existing functionality first. The
> existing URLs and such are things to be considered for a final migration.
> Thus I would move this to the end:
>
> - put site up for people to test on a test domain eg test.pygame.org
> - work out migration plan:
>  - migrate projects and static content
>  - add functionality for eixsting URL handling
> - replace existing website on pygame.org, and make sure it works ok.
> - END.  then can work on adding new stuff.
>
> Otherwise it might easily happen to limit the new system in some areas due
> to
> the existing structure.
>
> Working out the migration can happen in parallel to the test phase. Letting
> people test is nothing, which should keep you on a 24/7 work load, so while
> anyone plays around with it, you can work on the necessary conversion
> system.
>

Yeah good point.

We will need to make sure the existing data can be put into the new website
at some point.

It can be easy to take the existing database and just use that.  This is
quite easy to do with things like sqlalchemy and the like.

So to decide which way we go, we should study the database structure to see
if it is ok.

Migrating the data is probably easiest if we use the existing database
directly.

The wiki code is mostly html, so isn't that hard to convert.






>
>
>  Also, is it possible to do this at google code instead?
>>http://code.google.com/p/pygame/
>>
>
> Sounds reasonable - google already has the whole 

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[René Dudfield]

Hello,


On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 9:56 PM, jug  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Analyzing  the current page in detail  is a good aspect to exchange
> the site without any problems. Do we need to run and modify the current
> page or is enough to read the code? Then you could send it to me and I'll
> upload it to the page (I think we don't need it in SVN, do we?).
>

yeah, you're right.  I think reading the current code is likely good enough.

Phil sent me a tar.gz with the website code... I have to finish going
through it to make sure there's no passwords, or peoples private information
in there.  Then I'll upload it soonest so you can have a look through it.

Marcus, when I'm done looking through it, can I send it to you to have a
quick double check for private info?

I'll have to do the same with the database data... get rid of email
addresses etc before upload.



>
> Sure, we could do that at google code but first I think, Tracs better (and
> looks
> nicer) for developing with the community and then we could run the new
> website
> from SVM there so everyone can always have a look at the latest version and
> test it.
>
> And you normally don't get an confirmation email. Just register and login.
>
> Regards
> Jug
>


Sorry, I think we're going to have to go with the google code website.
Because it's got all the nice account management, which a lot of people have
accounts with already... and it kind of seems safer hosted there.  As a
bonus though, you won't need to administer it.

I have added these people to the http://code.google.com/p/pygame/
jug, pymike, marcus, nicholas, orcun, ian

Just with your google account email address on this mailing list... if you
want to use another email address please send it over.

If anyone else wants to help with the website, please send me your google
account email address off the mailing list to my email address directly (you
can use non-google emails for your google account).

cheers,

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[jug]

Have a look at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/wiki/Concept
Most of your points are already listed there. Add new ones so
we get an overview.

Jug

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Peter Gebauer]

Hello!

The two main priorities, imho, would be
1) documentation up to date with code
2) a wiki for additional documentation, examples, build instructions
   on various platforms, etc.

The project content could be easily transfered to wiki too. It might not
be better than a full database interface, but it's sufficient and easy
to maintain.
Also, there are already api doc generators for Python and good wiki's, so
no extra code would be written, only a build script for automating the process.

As a bonus, if we can generate API docs for specific versions that would be a
huge help.

/Peter

On 2009-04-21 (Tue) 22:38, jug wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Even if it was not selected as a project for GSoC, I would like to do  
> the pygame website rewrite.
> Like the other applicants, I'd do that with Django. Now that there can  
> not only be one student/participant,
> it would be cool to work together and combine forces.
>
> Since I applied for GSoC, I've already made a small concept. Merging  
> multiple implementing-/design ideas
> may become difficult, but before I go into detail just say me if you are  
> interested.
>
> Regards
> Jug

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[mva]

René Dudfield :


hi,

very awesome of you to go ahead with this...

I read through your website... and it's got some good ideas...

It'll be cool if we can make pygame one of the best sites around in the
python scene again... the current one is from around 2005... and has been
really good so far.


Well, the colours started to hit some nerves for me, so it might be better
to go with some pastel colour palette for the new one :-).


Rewriting the current functionality in python first could be a good way to
go.  Once the current site is replicated, then move on to other stuff.

All the old stuff needs to be written at some point... because we need to
keep all the old urls around (including feeds).  Also it's easier for people


Is there a way to have some easy to manage URL rewriting/forwarding in
Django? That way we could let existing URLS resolve to the new stuff (e.g.
place the currently static html sites into the DB and link to them).


to work towards something that exists, rather than working towards a new
design.


A new design is necessary in my opinion. Colours, overall style, etc.
The functionality though needs to stay the same (with improvements all over
the place).


Remember, the main focus of the website should be peoples projects...
especially updated projects.  With all the other stuff coming after that.


Seconded.



First steps are to agree on a way forward... but if we go with remaking the
existing site... we could follow this path:

- prepare html/php/sql from old site.
- get old site running outside of the main pygame.org so people can test it
easily.


The current one is already around and was widely tested. Or do I miss
something here?


- decide on which tools we are to use.  The main ones from people interested
seem to be a django, or a cherrypy based site.
- start writing the models for the various tables, and data types in
existing site (eg, project, user, wiki page, etc).
- collect a list of existing urls.
- collect a list of existing functionality.
- collect a list of html/php pages to convert to templates.
- start working on list of functionality, and templates until it is
complete.


Sounds good to me. Though I'd go with the existing functionality first. The
existing URLs and such are things to be considered for a final migration.
Thus I would move this to the end:

- put site up for people to test on a test domain eg test.pygame.org
- work out migration plan:
  - migrate projects and static content
  - add functionality for eixsting URL handling
- replace existing website on pygame.org, and make sure it works ok.
- END.  then can work on adding new stuff.

Otherwise it might easily happen to limit the new system in some areas due to
the existing structure.

Working out the migration can happen in parallel to the test phase. Letting
people test is nothing, which should keep you on a 24/7 work load, so while
anyone plays around with it, you can work on the necessary conversion system.


Also, is it possible to do this at google code instead?
http://code.google.com/p/pygame/


Sounds reasonable - google already has the whole functionality for the  
project,

Julian currently hosts privately. It might be good to use google's wiki there
and a seperate website SVN branch. Especially since the final system could be
adopted by other community-driven projects.

Regards
Marcus

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[jug]

Hi,

Analyzing  the current page in detail  is a good aspect to exchange
the site without any problems. Do we need to run and modify the current
page or is enough to read the code? Then you could send it to me and I'll
upload it to the page (I think we don't need it in SVN, do we?).

Sure, we could do that at google code but first I think, Tracs better 
(and looks
nicer) for developing with the community and then we could run the new 
website
from SVM there so everyone can always have a look at the latest version 
and test it.


And you normally don't get an confirmation email. Just register and login.

Regards
Jug

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[René Dudfield]

hi,

very awesome of you to go ahead with this...

I read through your website... and it's got some good ideas...

It'll be cool if we can make pygame one of the best sites around in the
python scene again... the current one is from around 2005... and has been
really good so far.




Rewriting the current functionality in python first could be a good way to
go.  Once the current site is replicated, then move on to other stuff.

All the old stuff needs to be written at some point... because we need to
keep all the old urls around (including feeds).  Also it's easier for people
to work towards something that exists, rather than working towards a new
design.

Another benefit of remaking the existing website will be to understand the
features of the current site.


Remember, the main focus of the website should be peoples projects...
especially updated projects.  With all the other stuff coming after that.


First steps are to agree on a way forward... but if we go with remaking the
existing site... we could follow this path:

- prepare html/php/sql from old site.
- get old site running outside of the main pygame.org so people can test it
easily.
- decide on which tools we are to use.  The main ones from people interested
seem to be a django, or a cherrypy based site.
- start writing the models for the various tables, and data types in
existing site (eg, project, user, wiki page, etc).
- collect a list of existing urls.
- collect a list of existing functionality.
- collect a list of html/php pages to convert to templates.
- start working on list of functionality, and templates until it is
complete.
- put site up for people to test on a test domain eg test.pygame.org
- replace existing website on pygame.org, and make sure it works ok.
- END.  then can work on adding new stuff.


We can even make some basic functional tests to start with based on the
output of existing urls.  eg, grab the html from a wiki page from the
existing site, and then compare it to our new website.




Also, is it possible to do this at google code instead?
http://code.google.com/p/pygame/


What does everyone think of this?






cheers,



On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 4:35 AM, jug  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> to organize the development process, I've set up a SVN-repo and a small
> Trac at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/
>
> You'll find there a first concept and you can take part in developing
> it by adding your ideas. Some of the point are completely to work out,
> so just have a look. If you have a complete concept for one of the
> points (eg the design) create a new wiki page and add a link.
>
> If you would like to participate in developing, add yourself to the list
> on the start page and provide some information like I did.
>
> I've done the setup on the quick so if there are any problems with Trac
> or you need more rights, please email me.
>
> Regards,
> Jug
>

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[jug]

Hello,

to organize the development process, I've set up a SVN-repo and a small
Trac at http://pygameweb.no-ip.org/trac/

You'll find there a first concept and you can take part in developing
it by adding your ideas. Some of the point are completely to work out,
so just have a look. If you have a complete concept for one of the
points (eg the design) create a new wiki page and add a link.

If you would like to participate in developing, add yourself to the list
on the start page and provide some information like I did.

I've done the setup on the quick so if there are any problems with Trac
or you need more rights, please email me.

Regards,
Jug

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[pymike]

LOL, you nailed it right on the head.

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Devon Scott-Tunkin
wrote:

>
> I'd like to help on the graphics side, the current site kind of looks like
> the python threw up all over the place.
>
> --- On Tue, 4/21/09, jug  wrote:
>
> > From: jug 
> > Subject: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
> > To: pygame-users@seul.org
> > Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 3:38 PM
> > Hello,
> >
> > Even if it was not selected as a project for GSoC, I would
> > like to do the pygame website rewrite.
> > Like the other applicants, I'd do that with Django. Now
> > that there can not only be one student/participant,
> > it would be cool to work together and combine forces.
> >
> > Since I applied for GSoC, I've already made a small
> > concept. Merging multiple implementing-/design ideas
> > may become difficult, but before I go into detail just say
> > me if you are interested.
> >
> > Regards
> > Jug
> >
>
>
>
>


-- 
- pymike

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Devon Scott-Tunkin]

I'd like to help on the graphics side, the current site kind of looks like the 
python threw up all over the place.

--- On Tue, 4/21/09, jug  wrote:

> From: jug 
> Subject: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite
> To: pygame-users@seul.org
> Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 3:38 PM
> Hello,
> 
> Even if it was not selected as a project for GSoC, I would
> like to do the pygame website rewrite.
> Like the other applicants, I'd do that with Django. Now
> that there can not only be one student/participant,
> it would be cool to work together and combine forces.
> 
> Since I applied for GSoC, I've already made a small
> concept. Merging multiple implementing-/design ideas
> may become difficult, but before I go into detail just say
> me if you are interested.
> 
> Regards
> Jug
> 


  

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Lenard Lindstrom]

The on-site documentation isn't automatically updated. Though it would 
be nice, it has become a lesser priority since the documentation is now 
bundled with the Pygame installer. For Python 1.9 just go into 
site-packages/pygame/docs to find them.


Lenard

Ian Mallett wrote:
I don't know, but I think so.  You have to click on some of the 
modules to get the correct toolbar on top, though. 

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Ian Mallett]

I don't know, but I think so.  You have to click on some of the modules to
get the correct toolbar on top, though.

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[orcun avsar]

Is the current documentation dynamic through the current release?

2009/4/22 Ian Mallett 

> for example, http://www.pygame.org/docs/ does not link to pygame.color,
> among other modules
> Ian
>

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[Ian Mallett]

Hi,
Certainly revisions are in order.  As a personal opinion, I like the general
layout/theme as is--but things like the documentation are out-of-date and
faulty (for example, http://www.pygame.org/docs/ does not link to
pygame.color, among other modules).  A few projects have been in the
"spotlight" on the main page for months, etc.
Ian

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[el lauwer]

Hoi,

Tobad that the rewrite of the pygame website wasn't accepted as a GSUC  
project. But I think it would be a good idea to rewrite the site  
anyway, since the current site is a bit outdated. Maybe someone should  
put up a project page (wiki?).


Here are some random ideas:
	* I really like the django site, since the code is available under  
GPL we can base our site on that consept.

   code: http://code.djangoproject.com/browser/djangoproject.com
	* I think Trac would be usefull replacement for the current wiki and  
viewcvs, maybe in combination with git?

   http://nanosleep.org/proj/trac-git-plugin/
	* A better separation between documentation, news, projects and  
development.


Grtz

On 21-apr-09, at 22:38, jug wrote:


Hello,

Even if it was not selected as a project for GSoC, I would like to  
do the pygame website rewrite.
Like the other applicants, I'd do that with Django. Now that there  
can not only be one student/participant,

it would be cool to work together and combine forces.

Since I applied for GSoC, I've already made a small concept. Merging  
multiple implementing-/design ideas
may become difficult, but before I go into detail just say me if you  
are interested.


Regards
Jug

Re: [pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[orcun avsar]

I had applied to same project too.  I was thinking same idea it can be good
to work with a team. I'd like to join.

2009/4/21 jug 

> Hello,
>
> Even if it was not selected as a project for GSoC, I would like to do the
> pygame website rewrite.
> Like the other applicants, I'd do that with Django. Now that there can not
> only be one student/participant,
> it would be cool to work together and combine forces.
>
> Since I applied for GSoC, I've already made a small concept. Merging
> multiple implementing-/design ideas
> may become difficult, but before I go into detail just say me if you are
> interested.
>
> Regards
> Jug
>

[pygame] PyGame Website Rewrite

[jug]

Hello,

Even if it was not selected as a project for GSoC, I would like to do 
the pygame website rewrite.
Like the other applicants, I'd do that with Django. Now that there can 
not only be one student/participant,

it would be cool to work together and combine forces.

Since I applied for GSoC, I've already made a small concept. Merging 
multiple implementing-/design ideas
may become difficult, but before I go into detail just say me if you are 
interested.


Regards
Jug

Re: [pygame] Pygame website suggestions

[Simon Wittber]

On 8/17/06, Luke Paireepinart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Do you think 1.8 will be out for Pyweek?  I know it's probably most
important to you two
(Richard runs pyweek and Phil always competes)
so what's the lowdown?  I asked this question in this mailing list
earlier and no one replied.
Why didn't anyone reply? Was the question annoying?  Did you not notice it?
Did it not go through at all?
Thanks,


I can only think of two people who might answer that question (Illume
and Pete), perhaps they haven't had time to read the list for a few
days?

Even if 1.8 is released in time, it may be that not everyone will be
able to use it, there might be unknown bugs etc. It might be wiser to
use 1.7 for pyweek.

-Sw.

Re: [pygame] Pygame website suggestions

[Luke Paireepinart]

Phil Hassey wrote:
Sure, I've added those to my TODO, along with your request for comment 
moderation.  I'll be doing a web site update along with the upcoming 
pygame 1.8 release, (as I'm doing some maint to the documentation 
html+css then.)  I'll probably get most of these items at that time as 
well.


Do you think 1.8 will be out for Pyweek?  I know it's probably most 
important to you two

(Richard runs pyweek and Phil always competes)
so what's the lowdown?  I asked this question in this mailing list 
earlier and no one replied.

Why didn't anyone reply? Was the question annoying?  Did you not notice it?
Did it not go through at all?
Thanks,
-Luke

Phil

*/Richard Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:

Could we please have persistent login cookies? I keep forgetting
to log in (as
do other prominent pygame people ) and thus wiki edits are coming
up as
Anonymous.

Also, could the wiki recentchanges list please link to the
*exposed* version
of the page *OR* could reversion actions please be put in the
recentchanges
list. I've gone to revert the "About" page fubar'ing a few times now.
Clicking from recentchanges brings up the broken version, but
going ot the
history indicates it's been reverted. Clicking on View confirms that.


Richard



Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls 
 
to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. 

Re: [pygame] Pygame website suggestions

[Phil Hassey]

Sure, I've added those to my TODO, along with your request for comment moderation.  I'll be doing a web site update along with the upcoming pygame 1.8 release, (as I'm doing some maint to the documentation html+css then.)  I'll probably get most of these items at that time as well.  PhilRichard Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Could we please have persistent login cookies? I keep forgetting to log in (as do other prominent pygame people ) and thus wiki edits are coming up as Anonymous.Also, could the wiki recentchanges list please link to the *exposed* version of the page *OR* could reversion actions please be put in the recentchanges list. I've gone to revert the "About" page fubar'ing a few times now. Clicking from recentchanges brings up the broken version, but going ot
 the history indicates it's been reverted. Clicking on View confirms that.Richard 
		Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

Re: [pygame] Pygame website suggestions

[Richard Jones]

Could we please have persistent login cookies? I keep forgetting to log in (as 
do other prominent pygame people ) and thus wiki edits are coming up as 
Anonymous.

Also, could the wiki recentchanges list please link to the *exposed* version 
of the page *OR* could reversion actions please be put in the recentchanges 
list. I've gone to revert the "About" page fubar'ing a few times now. 
Clicking from recentchanges brings up the broken version, but going ot the 
history indicates it's been reverted. Clicking on View confirms that.


Richard

Re: [pygame] Pygame website suggestions

[Phil Hassey]

That would be cool.  I might be up for doing that once we have a somewhat longer list of blogs.  http://www.pygame.org/wiki/rsslinks  So far, all we've got is the pygame news, pygame projects, illume's blog, and pitcher's deul blog.  If you (or anyone else) knows of any others, please add them, as I'd like to read them myself!  Thanks! PhilSimon Wittber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm sure someone has already suggested this, but I'll put my hand upfor a small section which aggregates atom + rss feeds from pygamerblogs.-Sw. 
		Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

[pygame] Pygame website suggestions

[Simon Wittber]

I'm sure someone has already suggested this, but I'll put my hand up
for a small section which aggregates atom + rss feeds from pygamer
blogs.

-Sw.

Re: [pygame] pygame website update

[Richard Jones]

On Sunday 30 July 2006 04:29, Phil Hassey wrote:
>  - RSS Feeds for news and recent releases are now available!

Cool - you should get this added to planet.python.org  :)


Has anyone given any thought to copying over the old PCR entries to the new 
CookBook? Is this something that might be done automatically?


Richard

Re: [pygame] pygame website update

[René Dudfield]

It all looks good :)

On 7/30/06, Phil Hassey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hey,

 Thanks.  I forgot to upload the top-level feed script (though I uploaded
all the modules, dependancies, etc..)  Ooops!

 Anyway, try it out again.  I don't have the orange button of power, so
please give it another try for me.

 Thanks!
 Phil


René Dudfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 hey Phil.

awesome work!

I tried out the comments and they worked nicely :) That should get
people a lot more feedback on their work.

I've tried the rss out in firefox and get no goodness. You can test
it by clicking on the little orange icon in the right of the location
bar. Then add it as a bookmark and try to have a look at it.

The link from the front of the pygame.org site gives a 404.
http://www.pygame.org/feed/news.php?format=RSS2.0
The other links give 404 too.

pygame 1.8 should be going into rc releases when the scrap module gets
fixed up on free bsd, and the rest of the doc comments get integrated.

The cookbook is going ok it seems. There's six entries in there already.


Have fun!



On 7/30/06, Phil Hassey wrote:
> A few updates to the website today:
>
> - RSS Feeds for news and recent releases are now available!
> - Each project now has a comments section where you can submit comments
and
> ratings of the project. Start giving feedback!
> - Some minor stuff...
>
> pygame 1.8 will be coming in the forseeable future. Along with that a
> number of the requested documentation fixes will be included. Stay tuned!
>
> Enjoy. Please tell me if any of the new features aren't working quite
> right. I haven't tested the RSS very carefully, so if folks with RSS /
ATOM
> readers can give them a try I'd greatly appreciate it.
>
> Thanks,
> Phil
>
>
> 
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
>
>




 
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

Re: [pygame] pygame website update

[Phil Hassey]

Hey,  Thanks.  I forgot to upload the top-level feed script (though I uploaded all the modules, dependancies, etc..)  Ooops!  Anyway, try it out again.  I don't have the orange button of power, so please give it another try for me.  Thanks! PhilRené Dudfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: hey Phil.awesome work!I tried out the comments and they worked nicely :)  That should getpeople a lot more feedback on their work.I've tried the rss out in firefox and get no goodness.  You can testit by clicking on the little orange icon in the right of the locationbar.  Then add it as a bookmark and try to have a look at it.The link from the front of the pygame.org site gives a 404.http://www.pygame.org/feed/news.php?format=RSS2.0The other links give 404
 too.pygame 1.8 should be going into rc releases when the scrap module getsfixed up on free bsd, and the rest of the doc comments get integrated.The cookbook is going ok it seems.  There's six entries in there already.Have fun!On 7/30/06, Phil Hassey  wrote:> A few updates to the website today:>>  - RSS Feeds for news and recent releases are now available!>  - Each project now has a comments section where you can submit comments and> ratings of the project. Start giving feedback!>  - Some minor stuff...>>  pygame 1.8 will be coming in the forseeable future. Along with that a> number of the requested documentation fixes will be included. Stay tuned!>>  Enjoy.  Please tell me if any of the new features aren't working quite> right.  I haven't tested the RSS very carefully, so if folks with RSS / ATOM> readers can
 give them a try I'd greatly appreciate it.>>  Thanks,>  Phil>>>  > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.>> 
		Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.
Try it free. 

Re: [pygame] pygame website update

[René Dudfield]

hey Phil.

awesome work!

I tried out the comments and they worked nicely :)  That should get
people a lot more feedback on their work.

I've tried the rss out in firefox and get no goodness.  You can test
it by clicking on the little orange icon in the right of the location
bar.  Then add it as a bookmark and try to have a look at it.

The link from the front of the pygame.org site gives a 404.
http://www.pygame.org/feed/news.php?format=RSS2.0
The other links give 404 too.

pygame 1.8 should be going into rc releases when the scrap module gets
fixed up on free bsd, and the rest of the doc comments get integrated.

The cookbook is going ok it seems.  There's six entries in there already.


Have fun!



On 7/30/06, Phil Hassey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

A few updates to the website today:

 - RSS Feeds for news and recent releases are now available!
 - Each project now has a comments section where you can submit comments and
ratings of the project. Start giving feedback!
 - Some minor stuff...

 pygame 1.8 will be coming in the forseeable future. Along with that a
number of the requested documentation fixes will be included. Stay tuned!

 Enjoy.  Please tell me if any of the new features aren't working quite
right.  I haven't tested the RSS very carefully, so if folks with RSS / ATOM
readers can give them a try I'd greatly appreciate it.

 Thanks,
 Phil


 
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

[pygame] pygame website update

[Phil Hassey]

A few updates to the website today:   - RSS Feeds for news and recent releases are now available!  - Each project now has a comments section where you can submit comments and ratings of the project. Start giving feedback!  - Some minor stuff...   pygame 1.8 will be coming in the forseeable future. Along with that a number of the requested documentation fixes will be included. Stay tuned!  Enjoy.  Please tell me if any of the new features aren't working quite right.  I haven't tested the RSS very carefully, so if folks with RSS / ATOM readers can give them a try I'd greatly appreciate it.  Thanks, Phil  
		Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.
Try it free. 

Re: [pygame] pygame website - request for suggestions

[flyaflya]

This is a good news, I hope it be finished soon.On 7/13/06, René Dudfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yeah, there's a few new things in the next pygame.  Mainly bugfixes though.Here's most of the changes...- blending modes (ADD, SUB, MULT, MIN, MAX).- improved documentation(petes new docs, and over 100 fixes from the
website comments).- clipboard(copy/paste) support.- universal binaries for macosx.- better 64 bit, and endian support.- saving surfaces as .png and .jpg.- faster scale, and scale2x.- bug fixes for sound, sprites, fonts, surface, time, transform.
- more unittests and examples.Have fun!On 7/13/06, Phil Hassey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> I believe the next release will have a number of alternate blit modes (such
> as additive) for surfaces:> http://www.pygame.org/docs/ref/surface.html#Surface.blit>>  Phil>>> Peter Shinners <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>  On Wed, 2006-07-12 at 16:48 +0800, flyaflya wrote:> > I find pygame has no big change many years,I hope it increase more> > features,such as "alpha render","additive render",These is very useful
> > to make a cooI game screen,>> The SDL library has also been slow with new features lately. Work has> begun on an all new version, with support for things like multiple> windows. When that is released there should be a new Pygame also with
> lots of new features. http://www.libsdl.org/news.php>  > Sneak preview the all-new 
Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just> radically better.>>-- http://www.flyaflya.com powered by pygame+python

Re: [pygame] pygame website - request for suggestions

[René Dudfield]

Yeah, there's a few new things in the next pygame.  Mainly bugfixes though.

Here's most of the changes...

- blending modes (ADD, SUB, MULT, MIN, MAX).
- improved documentation(petes new docs, and over 100 fixes from the
website comments).
- clipboard(copy/paste) support.
- universal binaries for macosx.
- better 64 bit, and endian support.
- saving surfaces as .png and .jpg.
- faster scale, and scale2x.
- bug fixes for sound, sprites, fonts, surface, time, transform.
- more unittests and examples.

Have fun!

On 7/13/06, Phil Hassey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I believe the next release will have a number of alternate blit modes (such
as additive) for surfaces:
http://www.pygame.org/docs/ref/surface.html#Surface.blit

 Phil


Peter Shinners <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 On Wed, 2006-07-12 at 16:48 +0800, flyaflya wrote:
> I find pygame has no big change many years,I hope it increase more
> features,such as "alpha render","additive render",These is very useful
> to make a cooI game screen,

The SDL library has also been slow with new features lately. Work has
begun on an all new version, with support for things like multiple
windows. When that is released there should be a new Pygame also with
lots of new features. http://www.libsdl.org/news.php




 
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