Newbie question
Hi, I have been looking around on the Inet to see if I could find anything about how I secure qmail pop3 service, but I don't have a ??? and I don't find a ???.. I was wondering if anyone have some good ideas what to use or where I can find some information about securing qmail pop3 etc. (Right now I'm using qmail-pop3d on OpenBSD). Thanks //Per
Re: Newbie question
qmail-pop3d is far secure..but using it with inet is not recommended...use qmail-pop3d with tcpserver..check the FAQ regarding this... regards dushyanth Hi, I have been looking around on the Inet to see if I could find anything about how I secure qmail pop3 service, but I don't have a ??? and I don't find a ???.. I was wondering if anyone have some good ideas what to use or where I can find some information about securing qmail pop3 etc. (Right now I'm using qmail-pop3d on OpenBSD). Thanks //Per -- Dushyanth Harinath Archean Infotech Limited Ph No:091-040-3228666,6570704,3228674 http://www.archeanit.com - This email was sent using SquirrelMail. Webmail for nuts! http://squirrelmail.org/
Re: Newbie question
* Per-Fredrik Pollnow [EMAIL PROTECTED] [010726 09:40]: I have been looking around on the Inet to see if I could find anything about how I secure qmail pop3 service, but I don't have a ??? and I don't find a ???.. I was wondering if anyone have some good ideas what to use or where I can find some information about securing qmail pop3 etc. (Right now I'm using qmail-pop3d on OpenBSD). [Please wrap your lines so that I don't have to] qmail-pop3d is secure. However, POP isn't secure, as the passwords are sent in clear text... But qmail-pop3d can use APOP (a basic challenge- response mechanism) if configured with a matching checkpassword. But even with APOP, a man-in-the-middle attack is possible... POP over SSL is one possible solution... One way to accomplish this is by using stunnel. -Johan -- Johan Almqvist http://www.almqvist.net/johan/qmail/ PGP signature
newbie question (it's an easy one i'm sure, but it's not in the FAQ)
Hi guys, I've installed the mdk (Mandrake) qmail rpm package on my Mandrake 7.2 box. I've got it set up so that it's dealing with local mail quite nicely, and now i'm ready to use fetchmail, which is also installed, to download mail from a pop server. qmail is running. If i check the ps listing, i see, in part: [root@homer init.d]# ps -ef |grep qmail root 29806 29805 1 Jun01 ?02:43:31 supervise qmail-pop3d root 29808 29805 0 Jun01 ?00:00:00 supervise qmail-send root 29810 29805 1 Jun01 ?02:55:05 supervise qmail-smtpd Shouldn't qmail-smtpd be listening to port 25? If i try to telnet to port 25 of my own box (from my own box) i get Connection refused. My firewall is totally disabled at the time that i am working on this. If i can't get this to work, then obviously fetchmail can't do it's job. Can anyone help me on this? Thanks, John __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: newbie question (it's an easy one i'm sure, but it's not in theFAQ)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- John Wolford wrote: qmail is running. Nope, not quite ... If i check the ps listing, i see, in part: [root@homer init.d]# ps -ef |grep qmail root 29806 29805 1 Jun01 ?02:43:31 supervise qmail-pop3d root 29808 29805 0 Jun01 ?00:00:00 supervise qmail-send root 29810 29805 1 Jun01 ?02:55:05 supervise qmail-smtpd That means svscan knows about it, but hasn't been told to start it. I don't know Thing One about the Mandrake rpm, so you may have an init script which does this, but what you specifically need to do is this (assuming here for the sake of argument that svscan uses /service as its working directory): # svc -u /service/qmail-* Then your ps should tell a very different story. Good luck -d - -- David Talkington http://www.spotnet.org PGP key: http://www.prairienet.org/~dtalk/dt000823.asc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.75-6 iQEVAwUBOySDP71ZYOtSwT+tAQH8iwgAtZFfnUdA9KzWbLfmJz+CdvAdvhrXozWZ KZCMunZdzQW5XL+yS12h6a4RBh2QK67eSXh3sU6w26a+xyusUqeu179DfACQsTbX nkMJ6yyh8bIaQVANoBtJrxpCrgrTvK8xhMoc25zMJUrCkDIlXsjpDwug/ru+t5kW cS0puflj6eg38+fvFtb0e9LaeQF6QucgabWi/JUOEadgzyDcJHJ/Q4kmOMJgw1qQ qIqqxVRSGSxukdqXBDKgC2HjDSkHHl62EA9OseFph5S8W65LtXfo8hO0XKX5hQmr rvcBMBi+8u4Zb82j5pZMIXzbQJFj+LLF0kc6HdIr0IjUnkVSelCDYw== =EUp9 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: newbie question (it's an easy one i'm sure, but it's not in theFAQ)
David Talkington wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- John Wolford wrote: qmail is running. Nope, not quite ... If i check the ps listing, i see, in part: [root@homer init.d]# ps -ef |grep qmail root 29806 29805 1 Jun01 ?02:43:31 supervise qmail-pop3d root 29808 29805 0 Jun01 ?00:00:00 supervise qmail-send root 29810 29805 1 Jun01 ?02:55:05 supervise qmail-smtpd That means svscan knows about it, but hasn't been told to start it. I don't know Thing One about the Mandrake rpm, so you may have an init script which does this, but what you specifically need to do is this (assuming here for the sake of argument that svscan uses /service as its working directory): # svc -u /service/qmail-* Then your ps should tell a very different story. Good luck -d - -- David Talkington http://www.spotnet.org In the case that you do already have an instance of tcpserver running under your supervise (`pstree` command could be very helpful in determining that =) ) instance, you probably do not have the appropriate IP addresses allowed within tcpserver's rules. Usually this is placed in /etc/tcp.smtp and then built into a binary database which can be used by tcpserver; but if its not (and I am also unfamiliar with the structure used by these RPMs) you will have to find the script that supervise is attempting to execute and give it a glance over to determine the location of this file. -- Nick (Keith) Fish Network Engineer Triton Technologies, Inc.
Newbie question-CJK
Hello all. I am niebie to qmail but untill now i am happy. I have some questions : I can connect POP3 to the unix users but i cannot receive any email. When i open the unix-user i made his home directory to be : /home/username. Is this the correct one for qmail?If not which is? Another thing Do i need to put in the /var/qmail/control/rcpthosts all the domains that i want to send email? Thats impossible.I have to put all the domains in the world?LIke hotmail.com,yahoo.com.. Thanks in advance _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Re: Newbie question-CJK
On Thu, 7 Jun 2001, Constantine Koulis wrote: I can connect POP3 to the unix users but i cannot receive any email. When i open the unix-user i made his home directory to be : /home/username. Is this the correct one for qmail?If not which is? Yes it is. I think you should first tell us if local deliveries fail or succeed. If they succeed, where is the mail put? What popdaemon do you use? Another thing Do i need to put in the /var/qmail/control/rcpthosts all the domains that i want to send email? Of course not. rcpthosts stands for ReCiPienThosts; hosts you want qmail to accept mail for. You put allowed IP's/hostnames into the config files for tcpserver, which you should use with qmail. http://cr.yp.to/ucspi-tcp.html Thats impossible.I have to put all the domains in the world?LIke hotmail.com,yahoo.com.. If you should have (and you must not) then I bet there was a wildcard for it ;) Grtz, Arjen.
Re: Newbie question-CJK
Hi, I can connect POP3 to the unix users but i cannot receive any email. When i open the unix-user i made his home directory to be : /home/username. Is this the correct one for qmail?If not which is? this depends on your configuration, in most cases it is hint: link /var/spool/mail/user + maildir / mailbox see lwq Another thing Do i need to put in the /var/qmail/control/rcpthosts all the domains that i want to send email? all the domains which allowed to _send_ mails Start reading the man pages and lwq and www.qmail.org Tom
Re: Newbie question-CJK
I would like to know why i can receive emails from the internet using pine with the user X and from the OUtlook Express lets say using again user X dont receive anything.. From: Tom Beer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Constantine Koulis [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: qmail list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie question-CJK Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 12:14:23 +0200 Hi, I can connect POP3 to the unix users but i cannot receive any email. When i open the unix-user i made his home directory to be : /home/username. Is this the correct one for qmail?If not which is? this depends on your configuration, in most cases it is hint: link /var/spool/mail/user + maildir / mailbox see lwq Another thing Do i need to put in the /var/qmail/control/rcpthosts all the domains that i want to send email? all the domains which allowed to _send_ mails Start reading the man pages and lwq and www.qmail.org Tom _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Re: Newbie question-CJK
On Thu, 7 Jun 2001, Constantine Koulis wrote: Dear sir. About local delivery i can send from root to local users but from local users to root nothing.As well i can send from local users and root to outside world. Where is mail for your local users stored? Do you check ~alias/ for root mail? I cannot receive to root from anywhere. I can receive from outside world to local users USING PINE.Not outlook express or IMAP. Where is the mail stored? I am using Courier-IMAP and i believe also POP3 You believe? Better make sure... and i tried to install vmailmgr but i have some small problems with it.Cant compile vmailmgr and from the rpms the vmailmgr-daemon deon start. PLz send to the list and not to me personally... Grtz, Arjen.
Re: newbie question
Hi, please mail an exploit of /var/log/qmail/current and we'll see... Tom - Original Message - From: Ian Truelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 6:38 AM Subject: newbie question I just installed qmail under RedHat 7.1 It passes all the internal tests, but I am not able to get anything from outside the local machine. I know I have not set something up properly, or failed to set something up, but I can't figure out what it is that is wrong. All I get when I try to email my machine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] is messages from the mail daemon where I send it from saying that it can't find the address and will keep trying. Now ihtruelsen.2y.net works with my apache server, and I am able to get access to my website which is on the same machine. Any thoughts would be helpful. Thanks in advance. Ian. _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Re: newbie question
Ian Truelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It passes all the internal tests, but I am not able to get anything from outside the local machine. Okay. Lots of possible causes for that one. All I get when I try to email my machine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] is messages from the mail daemon where I send it from saying that it can't find the address and will keep trying. [charlesc@charon archive]$ dnsmx ihtruelsen.2y.net 0 ihtruelsen.2y.net [charlesc@charon archive]$ telnet ihtruelsen.2y.net 25 Trying 205.200.142.91... telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection refused Nothing is listening on port 25; you haven't installed and configured qmail-smtpd/tcpserver correctly, or have not told svscan to start the tcpserver instance for qmail-smtpd. Charles -- --- Charles Cazabon[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.sk.ca/~charlesc/software/ Any opinions expressed are just that -- my opinions. ---
Re: Re: newbie question
Hi, try sending mail using ip address example [EMAIL PROTECTED] and check .. if it goes to user, then there is dns setting problem ..may be MX records .. Else make sure files in /var/qmail/control/me .. and rpchosts and defaultdomain is proper. Or try testing using $ telnet hostname 25 ... and check Regards Santosh Pasi ---Original Message-- Mailing-List: contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk From: Tom Beer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ian Truelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: newbie question Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:16:59 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, please mail an exploit of /var/log/qmail/current and we'll see... Tom - Original Message - From: Ian Truelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 6:38 AM Subject: newbie question I just installed qmail under RedHat 7.1 It passes all the internal tests, but I am not able to get anything from outside the local machine. I know I have not set something up properly, or failed to set something up, but I can't figure out what it is that is wrong. All I get when I try to email my machine at [EMAIL PROTECTED]is messages from the mail daemon where I send it from saying that it can'tfind the address and will keep trying. Now ihtruelsen.2y.net works with my apache server, and I am able to get access to my website which is on the same machine. Any thoughts would be helpful. Thanks in advance. Ian. _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
newbie question
I just installed qmail under RedHat 7.1 It passes all the internal tests, but I am not able to get anything from outside the local machine. I know I have not set something up properly, or failed to set something up, but I can't figure out what it is that is wrong. All I get when I try to email my machine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] is messages from the mail daemon where I send it from saying that it can't find the address and will keep trying. Now ihtruelsen.2y.net works with my apache server, and I am able to get access to my website which is on the same machine. Any thoughts would be helpful. Thanks in advance. Ian. _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
newbie question with concurrency remote
I am running qmail on: RedHat 6.2 256 Mb Ram I set concurrency remote = 150... however, most of the time, it seems like only a handful of remote processes are running, even though the queue backs up (right now, over 14000 msgs in queue and only 20 remote processes running)... Anybody have an idea about how to force it to run faster or at least not kill off my qmail-remote processes? New to this list so hope I provided enough info. Michael Geier CDM Sports Systems Administrator email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: 314.991.1511 x 6505
Re: newbie question with concurrency remote
Michael Geier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am running qmail on: RedHat 6.2 256 Mb Ram I set concurrency remote = 150... however, most of the time, it seems like only a handful of remote processes are running, even though the queue backs up (right now, over 14000 msgs in queue and only 20 remote processes running)... Are you sure concurrencyremote is set to 150? You restarted qmail-send after changing it? The logs reflect the 150 setting? Anybody have an idea about how to force it to run faster Faster disk More memory Faster network Replace syslog with multilog Install djbdns, run dnscache Kill non-qmail processes Faster CPU or at least not kill off my qmail-remote processes? What makes you think qmail-remote processes are being killed off? -Dave
Re: newbie question with concurrency remote
Michael Geier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I set concurrency remote = 150... however, most of the time, it seems like only a handful of remote processes are running, even though the queue backs up (right now, over 14000 msgs in queue and only 20 remote processes running)... Most likely you did not restart qmail after changing concurrencyremote, as 20 is the default maximum for this. `man qmail-send` for details. Charles -- --- Charles Cazabon[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.sk.ca/~charlesc/software/ Any opinions expressed are just that -- my opinions. ---
RE: newbie question with concurrency remote
thanks for the tips Dave... to those that had replied: I had rebooted qmail (frequently)... I installed djbdns, killed splogger, and rebooted server things seem to be much better. -Original Message- From: Dave Sill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 12:30 PM To: Qmail Mailing List Subject: Re: newbie question with concurrency remote Michael Geier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am running qmail on: RedHat 6.2 256 Mb Ram I set concurrency remote = 150... however, most of the time, it seems like only a handful of remote processes are running, even though the queue backs up (right now, over 14000 msgs in queue and only 20 remote processes running)... Are you sure concurrencyremote is set to 150? You restarted qmail-send after changing it? The logs reflect the 150 setting? Anybody have an idea about how to force it to run faster Faster disk More memory Faster network Replace syslog with multilog Install djbdns, run dnscache Kill non-qmail processes Faster CPU or at least not kill off my qmail-remote processes? What makes you think qmail-remote processes are being killed off? -Dave
Re: newbie question
On Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 01:53:50PM -0500, John Hogan wrote: yep, popper's running... qmail is configured to ~/Mailbox, tests, performs local delivery and receipt What popper? qmail-pop3d only does Maildir. Greetz, Peter.
Re: newbie question
i was running just regular, old, linux distribution flavored popper... must i switch? - hogan At 09:17 PM 4/26/2001 +0200, Peter van Dijk wrote: On Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 01:53:50PM -0500, John Hogan wrote: yep, popper's running... qmail is configured to ~/Mailbox, tests, performs local delivery and receipt What popper? qmail-pop3d only does Maildir. Greetz, Peter. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: newbie question
thanks for the off-list advice... i thought i'd let everyone know - building a sym-link from /var/spool/mail/username to ~(username)/Mailbox did the trick... popper must have been looking at the old /var/spool i'll have to figure out a way to change popper and release those nasty sym-links thanks again - hogan At 02:40 PM 4/26/2001 -0500, John Hogan wrote: i was running just regular, old, linux distribution flavored popper... must i switch? - hogan At 09:17 PM 4/26/2001 +0200, Peter van Dijk wrote: On Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 01:53:50PM -0500, John Hogan wrote: yep, popper's running... qmail is configured to ~/Mailbox, tests, performs local delivery and receipt What popper? qmail-pop3d only does Maildir. Greetz, Peter. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
newbie question
i have qmail all configured, tested and working in a local environment... when i send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED], the message is not downloaded by a third-party UA and is only available at the command line (pine) any ideas? - hogan _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: newbie question
Hi John, Thursday, April 26, 2001, 7:16:38 PM, you wrote: JH i have qmail all configured, tested and working in a local JH environment... when i send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED], the JH message is not downloaded by a third-party UA and is only JH available at the command line (pine) JH any ideas? You need a POP server, such as popper (included with most Linux distributions) if you're storing your messages in /var/spool/mail, or some other POP server if you're using mbox or Maildir. Best regards, Barrymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: newbie question
John Hogan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i have qmail all configured, tested and working in a local environment... when i send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED], the message is not downloaded by a third-party UA and is only available at the command line (pine) If NFS is involved, make sure that the system clocks between all the machines are synchronized (with xntpd, clockspped, or equivalent). qmail-pop3d won't see messages which are dated in the future. Charles -- --- Charles Cazabon[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.sk.ca/~charlesc/software/ Any opinions expressed are just that -- my opinions. ---
Re: newbie question
yep, popper's running... qmail is configured to ~/Mailbox, tests, performs local delivery and receipt new messages are received in Pine just fine, but not by a remote UA - hogan At 07:42 PM 4/26/2001 +0100, Barry Hill wrote: Hi John, Thursday, April 26, 2001, 7:16:38 PM, you wrote: JH i have qmail all configured, tested and working in a local JH environment... when i send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED], the JH message is not downloaded by a third-party UA and is only JH available at the command line (pine) JH any ideas? You need a POP server, such as popper (included with most Linux distributions) if you're storing your messages in /var/spool/mail, or some other POP server if you're using mbox or Maildir. Best regards, Barrymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: Qmail newbie question
Well have you tried to start tcpserver anyway? On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Johnson, Garrett wrote: Please forgive my ignorance. I'm trying to learn. I have set up a secondary Qmail server on RedHat 7.0 and it seems to have come up without a problem, but I'm having a hair-pulling time trying to test if it works properly. It has passed some basic tests. For instance I can use qmail-inject to email other servers. But the number of processes being run is awfully small. This is what I get from ps -ef | grep qmail: root 503 502 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 supervise qmail-send root 505 502 1 Mar16 ?00:54:39 supervise qmail-smtpd qmaill 507 504 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 /usr/local/bin/multilog t qmails 508 503 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-send qmaill 510 506 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 /usr/local/bin/multilog t root 520 508 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-lspawn ./Mailbox qmailr 521 508 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-rspawn qmailq 522 508 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-clean root 3883 505 0 12:20 ?00:00:00 supervise qmail-smtpd Should there be more processes running? Why isn't tcpserver running (keeping in mind that it isn't passing any email right now)? Something more disturbing is that when I run mconnect without arguments I get: tcpclient: unable to connect to 127.0.0.1 port 25: connection refused When I run a portsniff from another computer port 25 doesn't show up? Is this some sort of security or is something wrong? Maybe I'm worrying about nothing, but this seems weird. Please be patient with the Qmail newbie. I'd be glad to supply more information if required. -Garrett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Qmail newbie question
On Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 12:19:57PM -0800, Johnson, Garrett wrote: Why isn't tcpserver running (keeping in mind that it isn't passing any email right now)? Something more disturbing is that when I run mconnect without arguments I get: tcpclient: unable to connect to 127.0.0.1 port 25: connection refused Did you start tcpserver to listen for SMTP connections? It won't start if you don't start it. Chris PGP signature
Re: Qmail newbie question
On Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 12:19:57PM -0800, Johnson, Garrett wrote: This is what I get from ps -ef | grep qmail: root 503 502 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 supervise qmail-send root 505 502 1 Mar16 ?00:54:39 supervise qmail-smtpd qmaill 507 504 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 /usr/local/bin/multilog t qmails 508 503 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-send qmaill 510 506 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 /usr/local/bin/multilog t root 520 508 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-lspawn ./Mailbox qmailr 521 508 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-rspawn qmailq 522 508 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-clean root 3883 505 0 12:20 ?00:00:00 supervise qmail-smtpd kill 3883. Should there be more processes running? Why isn't tcpserver running (keeping in mind that it isn't passing any email right now)? qmaild should run tcpserver. Your run script seems to be broken. Check with svstat /service/qmail-smtpd. Ckeck /service/qmail-smtpd/run, check the logs. Gerrit. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] innominate AG the linux architects tel: +49.30.308806-0 fax: -77 http://www.innominate.com
Qmail newbie question
Please forgive my ignorance. I'm trying to learn. I have set up a secondary Qmail server on RedHat 7.0 and it seems to have come up without a problem, but I'm having a hair-pulling time trying to test if it works properly. It has passed some basic tests. For instance I can use qmail-inject to email other servers. But the number of processes being run is awfully small. This is what I get from ps -ef | grep qmail: root 503 502 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 supervise qmail-send root 505 502 1 Mar16 ?00:54:39 supervise qmail-smtpd qmaill 507 504 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 /usr/local/bin/multilog t qmails 508 503 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-send qmaill 510 506 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 /usr/local/bin/multilog t root 520 508 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-lspawn ./Mailbox qmailr 521 508 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-rspawn qmailq 522 508 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-clean root 3883 505 0 12:20 ?00:00:00 supervise qmail-smtpd Should there be more processes running? Why isn't tcpserver running (keeping in mind that it isn't passing any email right now)? Something more disturbing is that when I run mconnect without arguments I get: tcpclient: unable to connect to 127.0.0.1 port 25: connection refused When I run a portsniff from another computer port 25 doesn't show up? Is this some sort of security or is something wrong? Maybe I'm worrying about nothing, but this seems weird. Please be patient with the Qmail newbie. I'd be glad to supply more information if required. -Garrett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Qmail newbie question
At 03:37 PM 3/19/2001, Gerrit Pape wrote: did you read life with qmail? read it at www.lifewithqmail.org. Use the init script from there and you shouldn't have any problems. :-) ~kurth PS - to the list - yes, i know this is what I answer for every answer...however almost every question can be answered in LWQ. When ppl subscribe to this list there should be a notice in the welcome-notice that says "If your planning on asking questions, first read life with qmail written by David Still. (http://www.lifewithqmail.org)" :-) On Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 12:19:57PM -0800, Johnson, Garrett wrote: This is what I get from ps -ef | grep qmail: root 503 502 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 supervise qmail-send root 505 502 1 Mar16 ?00:54:39 supervise qmail-smtpd qmaill 507 504 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 /usr/local/bin/multilog t qmails 508 503 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-send qmaill 510 506 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 /usr/local/bin/multilog t root 520 508 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-lspawn ./Mailbox qmailr 521 508 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-rspawn qmailq 522 508 0 Mar16 ?00:00:00 qmail-clean root 3883 505 0 12:20 ?00:00:00 supervise qmail-smtpd kill 3883. Should there be more processes running? Why isn't tcpserver running (keeping in mind that it isn't passing any email right now)? qmaild should run tcpserver. Your run script seems to be broken. Check with svstat /service/qmail-smtpd. Ckeck /service/qmail-smtpd/run, check the logs. Gerrit. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] innominate AG the linux architects tel: +49.30.308806-0 fax: -77 http://www.innominate.com
RE: Qmail newbie question
Thanks for all the quick responses. Gerrit Pape pointed me in the right direction. My run script for starting tcpserver had a typo in it. Once fixed tcpserver, qmail-remote, and qmail-smtpd immediately came up on their own. I can also mconnect to port 25 now. Thanks again. Garrett Johnson SFGH, Dean's Office, School of Medicine -Original Message- From: Chris Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:39 PM To: Johnson, Garrett Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Re: Qmail newbie question On Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 12:19:57PM -0800, Johnson, Garrett wrote: Why isn't tcpserver running (keeping in mind that it isn't passing any email right now)? Something more disturbing is that when I run mconnect without arguments I get: tcpclient: unable to connect to 127.0.0.1 port 25: connection refused Did you start tcpserver to listen for SMTP connections? It won't start if you don't start it. Chris
newbie question on forwarding email
My server is a UNIX box with BSDI 4.0, Apache, Qmail, and Frontpage. My BSDI and QMail were set up by someone else (no longer with us) and I am pretty much a newbie in this arena A Frontpage client wants to publish a form to be received on my server addressed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and relayed (forwarded/redirected) to her personal email address which is not on my server. The first hurdle was to add SMTPHost mymailserver.address.com in the frontpage.cnf AND her domainname.cnf file . Now I have been told that I need to add herdomain.org to the QMail list of allowable 'local' domains. Reading on, in LWQ 3.5 it seems I may need to set her up in /var/qmail/alias as well? If so, I would set her up as 'info'? And how do I set it up to redirect to her personal [EMAIL PROTECTED]? Do I also need to do adduser 'info' in the BSDI side of the server? Can anyone point me in the right direction? And, is there anything else I need to configure so this will work? Thanks in advance for your help.
Re: newbie question on forwarding email
Virginia Chism [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A Frontpage client wants to publish a form to be received on my server addressed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and relayed (forwarded/redirected) to her personal email address which is not on my server. [...] Now I have been told that I need to add herdomain.org to the QMail list of allowable 'local' domains. Reading on, in LWQ 3.5 it seems I may need to set her up in /var/qmail/alias as well? If so, I would set her up as 'info'? And how do I set it up to redirect to her personal [EMAIL PROTECTED]? Easier: make herdomain.org virtual, and forward mail out of an appropriate .qmail file directly: echo "herdomain.org:alias-herdomain" /var/qmail/control/virtualdomains echo "forwardaddress" ~alias/.qmail-herdomain-info Remember to remove the old entry from "locals", and to restart qmail or HUP qmail-send. No system user accounts are necessary in this setup. Charles -- --- Charles Cazabon[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.sk.ca/~charlesc/software/ Any opinions expressed are just that -- my opinions. ---
Newbie question
Roger Arnold wrote: How do you make a users file using "qmail-pw2u" from your /etc/passwd file ? If I execute /var/qmail/qmail-pw2u with no extensions I would have thought that it would have created an assignments file from /etc/passwd, however all that happens is that it goes into never-never land, and not return to the command prompt. Are there any indepth documentation relating to this and other qmail commands other than the man files ? Thanks in advance Roger
Re: Newbie question
Hello Roger, qmail-pw2u wants the contents of /etc/passwd to be passed/piped to it. If you wanted to create an assignment file from the /etc/passwd, you might try something like cat /etc/passwd | /var/qmail/bin/qmail-pw2u /var/qmail/users/assign If you do that though, be sure you delete people who won't need mail. Or you could make your own assign file, but you would have to figure that out yourself :-) ALSO REMEMBER TO RUN /var/qmail/bin/qmail-newu AFTER YOU HAVE AN ASSIGN FILE. This has caused me a little trouble in the past :-D Jeff - Original Message - From: "Roger Arnold" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Qmail Users" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 5:01 AM Subject: Newbie question Roger Arnold wrote: How do you make a users file using "qmail-pw2u" from your /etc/passwd file ? If I execute /var/qmail/qmail-pw2u with no extensions I would have thought that it would have created an assignments file from /etc/passwd, however all that happens is that it goes into never-never land, and not return to the command prompt. Are there any indepth documentation relating to this and other qmail commands other than the man files ? Thanks in advance Roger
RE: newbie question. please recommend solution
Here is the thing: I DO NOT have a domain YET. SO in my /etc/hosts file, I added swaru as my machine name. SInce I'm not part of any network (it's a system at which is soon going to be a web/mail server), I named my machine swaru (swami + guru :-). I don't know anything about vmailmgr, but I do know that qmail never uses the hosts file, only DNS. Never ever. Not on a bet. Not if you ask nicely. Not even if you're listed on Santa's "Nice" list. You might want to set up a "private" DNS server that pretends you have a domain for the purposes of setting up and testing mail services. -- gowen -- Greg Owen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: newbie question. please recommend solution
Greg, thanks for the insight. I AM getting a domain soon. I'm getting my DSL on a static IP and am going to register a domain and assign it. My DNS server is going to be elsewhere (probably at work). anyway, I chucked out vmailmgr and installed vpopmail. Now I've finally accomplished what I wanted to. I can give my friends POP3 accounts and not let them have unix accounts. So if Anyone needs help configuring such a system, let me know. Although I'm not the best unix network person (hey, I'm still in high school ...) I'll probably be able to assist you. thanks, -sridhar -Original Message- From: Greg Owen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 6:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: newbie question. please recommend solution Here is the thing: I DO NOT have a domain YET. SO in my /etc/hosts file, I added swaru as my machine name. SInce I'm not part of any network (it's a system at which is soon going to be a web/mail server), I named my machine swaru (swami + guru :-). I don't know anything about vmailmgr, but I do know that qmail never uses the hosts file, only DNS. Never ever. Not on a bet. Not if you ask nicely. Not even if you're listed on Santa's "Nice" list. You might want to set up a "private" DNS server that pretends you have a domain for the purposes of setting up and testing mail services. -- gowen -- Greg Owen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
newbie question. please recommend solution
I'm trying to make qmail under my solaris work. I have solaris 2.8 running on Ultra-2. Now here is scenario: I got the q-mail smtpd working (not the way they say in the documentation -- but it works). Now I'm trying to set up virtual users. I want to use vmailmgr because of the web interface + I want to set up real virtual users. Basically I want to set up e-mail accounts for people without actually creating a UNIX account for each user. YET: they should be able to access their virtual mail using a POP server. (Kinda like what hotmail, coolmail.net, and other mail providers do). Anyway: here is my problem: I compiled and installed vmailmgr. Is there any documentation on how to set it up? Does anyone know what configuration files I need to edit?? So anyway, I did like they told me to. I created a user to store all virtual mail. This user is called 'hehe'. Then I edited /var/qmail/control/virtualdomains and added two lines: swaru:hehe localhost:hehe Here is the thing: I DO NOT have a domain YET. SO in my /etc/hosts file, I added swaru as my machine name. SInce I'm not part of any network (it's a system at which is soon going to be a web/mail server), I named my machine swaru (swami + guru :-). Then I did vhost setup under the username hehe. Then I did valiasadd, etc. to finish it off. The two aliases i added to user hehe were 'me' and 'myself' and 'myname' (actually I added three :-) Anyway, when I tried to send mail to me@swaru, or myname@swaru, or myself@swaru, it DOES NOT work. BUT: when I send mail to hehe@swaru, I get the mail delivered. Can someone please help! I would really appreciate it if someone could point me to a very simple and step-by-step documentation. I already read the qmail docs and vmailmgr docs millions of time. They are not organized well and annoying thanks so much, -sridhar +---+ |Sridhar Balasubramanian -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]| |SolarisFirst.com -- http://www.solarisfirst.com| +---+ CoolMail(tm). Hear. There. Everywhere.(sm) E-mail by phone - http://www.planetarymotion.com
Re: newbie question
On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Charles Cazabon wrote: CCThe mail transaction above is not an example of (unauthorized) relaying. CCBy putting the domain in rcpthosts, you have told qmail-smtpd "I am willing CCto accept mail from anyone which has an envelope recipient of CC[EMAIL PROTECTED]" CC CCIf foo.com is in your locals file, the message will be delivered locally. CCIf foo.com is in your virtualdomains file, it will be treated as a virtual CCdomain and delivered to a local user. CCIf foo.com is in neither locals nor controls, qmail will attempt to deliver CCit to the highest priority MX for foo.com, and therefore serving as a CCsecodary MX for foo.com. CC CC I think i missed something in configuration or otherwise i didnt understand CC well how qmail works. CC CCYes, it's a problem with your understanding of qmail. To receive mail CCfrom the world at large, you have to allow everyone to connect to your CCSMTP port. You should then accept/reject mail based on the envelope CCrecipient -- accepting mail which is for addresses in your local domain(s) CCand virtual domains (if any), and possibly a few others for which you CCprovide backup MX service, and rejecting everything else. CC CCThen, in addition, you can set the RELAYCLIENT variable as you did above CCfor certain IP addresses (typically those on your company LAN or private CCnetwork), to allow only those IP addresses to relay mail to anywhere else CCin the world through your server. In this case you are serving as a CC"smarthost" for dumb clients (like MUAs on Windows machines, etc). CC CCCharles CC THANKS CHARLES ! This solved all my questions! Thanks a lot. Dario
newbie question
Hello all. Sorry for boring you, but i have this problem i cannot understand: I configured qmail with tcpserver following the installation instructions step by step. At this point i have a tcpserver at the moment allowing connections only from localhost. Everything is working fine and i send and receive e-mails with no problems. If i try to do relaying from a host that is not allowed i get the message: "553 sorry, that domain isn't in my list of allowed rcpthosts". The question is :If i try to send an e-mail to a domain that's contained in rcpthosts, from an unautorized host, i get no errors and the email arrives...why this? with this method can't i be able to mail bomb any e-mail address of this domain? Thanks Dario
Re: newbie question
Dario Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry for boring you, but i have this problem i cannot understand: At this point i have a tcpserver at the moment allowing connections only from localhost. You're preventing connections to port 25 completely? Please post the contents of your smtp.rules file to be more clear on exactly what you are allowing/disallowing. If i try to do relaying from a host that is not allowed i get the message: "553 sorry, that domain isn't in my list of allowed rcpthosts". Yes, the expected behaviour. The question is :If i try to send an e-mail to a domain that's contained in rcpthosts, from an unautorized host, i get no errors and the email arrives...why this? with this method can't i be able to mail bomb any e-mail address of this domain? rcpthosts lists machines/domains which you are willing to accept mail for. They may be local, or they may be other machines for which you are providing secondary MX service. This is expected behaviour. Either you don't quite understand how internet mail works, or you're being unclear in what you are trying to accomplish here. Could you explain better what you are trying to do, and why you think it's not correct? Charles -- --- Charles Cazabon[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.sk.ca/~charlesc/software/ Any opinions expressed are just that -- my opinions. ---
Re: newbie question
CCYou're preventing connections to port 25 completely? CCPlease post the contents of your smtp.rules file to be more clear on exactly CCwhat you are allowing/disallowing. the rule is : 127.:allow,RELAYCLIENT="" CC CC If i try to do relaying from a host that is not allowed i get the message: CC "553 sorry, that domain isn't in my list of allowed rcpthosts". CC CCYes, the expected behaviour. Ok never said the opposit CC CC The question is :If i try to send an e-mail to a domain that's contained CC in rcpthosts, from an unautorized host, i get no errors and the email CC arrives...why this? CC with this method can't i be able to mail bomb any e-mail address of this CC domain? CC CCrcpthosts lists machines/domains which you are willing to accept mail for. CCThey may be local, or they may be other machines for which you are providing CCsecondary MX service. This is expected behaviour. CCEither you don't quite understand how internet mail works, or you're being CCunclear in what you are trying to accomplish here. Could you explain better CCwhat you are trying to do, and why you think it's not correct? Well probably i was not clear! I am a "son of Sendmail" and i am trying to set up qmail in the best way, to understand its full possibilities. Obviously it 's not really easy to do this, using the mess of documentation that's around...anyway taking the time needed i am trying to do this. Let's do an example: I put the domain foo.com in rcpthosts. Now qmail will accept mails for *@foo.com. I put a rule in tcpservers to allow relaying only from localhost and my LAN hosts. Now i telnet to another host, not autorised to do relaying; from here: telnet my qmail machine port 25 220 welcome message helo cippalippa.org 250 welcome message mail from:k 250 Ok rcpt to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 250 OK data 354 go ahead PTTT . 250 ok 976727180 qp 4190 quit Well i think this is not fair. Infact anyone could send mails to [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] and any other standard address, being completely anonymous. I think i missed something in configuration or otherwise i didnt understand well how qmail works. My previous mail was NOT to claim that qmail is bugged as some1 could have understood. Now i hope things are clearer Thnx Dario
Re: newbie question
Dario Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: CCYou're preventing connections to port 25 completely? CCPlease post the CCcontents of your smtp.rules file to be more clear on exactly CCwhat you CCare allowing/disallowing. the rule is : 127.:allow,RELAYCLIENT="" Okay, you're not denying connections at all. You're setting the RELAYCLIENT only if the remote IP address is 127.*.*.* . I put the domain foo.com in rcpthosts. Now qmail will accept mails for *@foo.com. I put a rule in tcpservers to allow relaying only from localhost and my LAN hosts. Now i telnet to another host, not autorised to do relaying; from here: telnet my qmail machine port 25 220 welcome message helo cippalippa.org 250 welcome message mail from:k 250 Ok rcpt to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 250 OK data 354 go ahead PTTT . 250 ok 976727180 qp 4190 quit Well i think this is not fair. Infact anyone could send mails to [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] and any other standard address, being completely anonymous. The mail transaction above is not an example of (unauthorized) relaying. By putting the domain in rcpthosts, you have told qmail-smtpd "I am willing to accept mail from anyone which has an envelope recipient of [EMAIL PROTECTED]" If foo.com is in your locals file, the message will be delivered locally. If foo.com is in your virtualdomains file, it will be treated as a virtual domain and delivered to a local user. If foo.com is in neither locals nor controls, qmail will attempt to deliver it to the highest priority MX for foo.com, and therefore serving as a secodary MX for foo.com. I think i missed something in configuration or otherwise i didnt understand well how qmail works. Yes, it's a problem with your understanding of qmail. To receive mail from the world at large, you have to allow everyone to connect to your SMTP port. You should then accept/reject mail based on the envelope recipient -- accepting mail which is for addresses in your local domain(s) and virtual domains (if any), and possibly a few others for which you provide backup MX service, and rejecting everything else. Then, in addition, you can set the RELAYCLIENT variable as you did above for certain IP addresses (typically those on your company LAN or private network), to allow only those IP addresses to relay mail to anywhere else in the world through your server. In this case you are serving as a "smarthost" for dumb clients (like MUAs on Windows machines, etc). Charles -- --- Charles Cazabon[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.sk.ca/~charlesc/software/ Any opinions expressed are just that -- my opinions. ---
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question) end of thread
Just a recommendation.. Book Title: "Pragmatics of Human Communication" Author: Paul Watzlawik a.o. ISBN: 0393010090 and now back to work.. Anton Pirnat
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Scott D. Yelich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Was the issue about an MX pointing to a CNAME ever resolved? Yes; it's verboten. If you do it, don't expect to receive 100% of the mail people try to send to you. Also; please start a new thread when posting a new question; your message showed up in the middle of the "Newbies -- fried, or flame-broiled?" thread. Charles -- --- Charles Cazabon[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.sk.ca/~charlesc/software/ Any opinions expressed are just that -- my opinions. ---
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
"Aaron L. Meehan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've said enough. Pretty close to adding a rule for *Outlook* and *Inernet Mail Service* (heh, "Service!") into my .procmailrc, though, for mails to this list, with the SNR getting so bad among you all. The only problem with doing that is the clueful admins with clueless management who force everyone to use the Corporate Email Solution, ie Outlook. Not me right now, but it was me in my last job. -Matt -- | Matthew J. Brown - Senior Network Administrator - NBCi Shopping | | 1983 W. 190th St, Suite 100, Torrance CA 90504 | | Phone: (310) 538-7122| Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Cell: (714) 457-1854| Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
On 1 Dec 2000, Matt Brown wrote: The only problem with doing that is the clueful admins with clueless management who force everyone to use the Corporate Email Solution, ie Outlook. Not me right now, but it was me in my last job. Agreed. At my last consulting job... it took over 3 weeks to get the corporate email set up... once it was set up, I had mail waiting before I even got in the first time. The third message was a virus from someone I didn't even know (in the company). Everyone was forced to use outlook/express - no ifs-and-or-buts one guy insisted emailing mailing lists with this whereabouts... "I'm going to lunch now" ... "I'm going to be 30 minutes late getting in this morning" ... etc. Scott ps: qmail qmail qmail qmail qmail
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
"asantos" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or that XEmacs is not an operating system. Actually, XEmacs is as much of an operating system--probably even moreso--than early versions of Windows. -Dave
Re: FW: Newbie Question
Louis Mushandu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fits qmail installation and all was fine until I tried to send email to the box. It produces the following error message And wrote it twice. Woohoo. Hint: if no one replies to your question the first time you post it, posting exactly the same text again won't get you any better response. Someone did actually reply with the correct answer, though. Sorry. Although I'm listed as a best-preference MX or A for that host, it isn't in my control/locals file, so I don't treat it as local. (#5.4.6) The domain you're trying to receive mail for isn't in /var/qmail/control/locals. Therefore qmail doesn't consider it a local domain. Therefore it can't deliver it. and below is control details /var/qmail/control :: bouncefrom :: postmaster This is very hard to read; instead of typing this out in an oddball format, you'll get better results if you include the output of the `qmail-showctl` command. Charles -- --- Charles Cazabon[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.sk.ca/~charlesc/software/ Any opinions expressed are just that -- my opinions. ---
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
From: Dave Sill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Actually, XEmacs is as much of an operating system--probably even moreso--than early versions of Windows. Me, I'd say that neither is an operating system ;) Anyway, I think that a good rule of thumb to qualify a software piece as a operating system is "does the boot in it?". In the case of XEmacs, it obviously doesn't. In the case of Windows... errr... that's it, Windows is a windows manager, not a operating system. Armando
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
I may be out of line here. You are. You post off-topic bullshit to a mailing list about qmail. Oh, and you don't even have the decency to comply to the well-established quoting standards when quoting email from others. This is not a "I am willing to help dumb idiots" mailing list. This is more of a self help mailing list. You help yourself and when you have a problem that can not be answered with the docs and search engines, THEN you can come here. Or you can come here to read announcements for new software, new documentation or new tricks regarding qmail. But if you come here, post moronic questions, get beaten for it, and then have the audacity to come back and whine publicly, then you are the most pathetic creature on Earth and deserve to die slowly and painfully. May the flies of a dozen dead camels' asses rest in your armpits! Felix
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
But if you come here, post moronic questions, get beaten for it, and then have the audacity to come back and whine publicly, then you are the most pathetic creature on Earth and deserve to die slowly and painfully. May the flies of a dozen dead camels' asses rest in your armpits! I cannot get over this attitude. Can it really be that the majority of the qmail community feels like old Felix here? Sounds like the guy was dropped as a baby, beaten up in grammar school, and caught his prom date screwing another chick in the back seat of his car. Relax, Felix. And remember, you're cluttering up the list as much as this "moron". As am I. As will be whomever flames me. Just talk about qmail or nothing at all, you angry people. It's that simple. Ask a question, answer a question, or post nothing, if you want this list traffic to be worthwhile reading. Gregg Felix
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Am Donnerstag, 30. November 2000 20:30 schrieb Barley: But if you come here, post moronic questions, get beaten for it, and then have the audacity to come back and whine publicly, then you are the most pathetic creature on Earth and deserve to die slowly and painfully. May the flies of a dozen dead camels' asses rest in your armpits! I cannot get over this attitude. Can it really be that the majority of the qmail community feels like old Felix here? Yes. Ask a question, answer a question, or post nothing, And waste your time deleteting 10 follow-ups like "oh this list is so impolite as nobody helps me". Gregg Felix -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS| Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg www.bsws.de| Germany
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Thus spake Dave Sill ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I'm not a big fan of newbie smackdowns, though a repeat offendor might warrant one. I think newbies generally respond better to reward than punishment. E.g., instead of: This is a question that I have asked numerous times and I never got a good response for it: Why would you want to help rude newbies? Don't get me wrong: helping newbies is essential for the survival of the knowledge. But if I have the choice, I will not help people who are so dumb that they will probably get killed the next day because they thought pissing on overland power lines is a bright idea. And that includes people who a. are too dumb to state their question properly (this includes bad grammar, bad spelling, bad quoting and obnoxious signatures) b. are too dumb to state their question in the proper forum c. are not friendly (i.e. demand answer instead of being polite) d. whine when someone points their mistakes out to them If someone who matches any of those points wants my help, he has to pay for it. Or, he can be really really friendly to me. Or he can read the documentation that I put on my web page. If that is not sufficient, then that person is out of luck. No, I am not sorry. The former approach *might* work, but is more likely to offend the newbie. The latter is polite and informative. An educated, unoffended newbie is much more likely to want to change his ways. If he doesn't want to change his ways, then he is welcome to examine the inside of my spacious killfile. Noone is obligated to help idiots. In particular, I am not. Felix
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
How exactly is my MUA broken? Your MTA is not so broken that it could not be fixed if you actually understood what you are doing. Robin chose to be more polite to you than you are to us, so he rather wrote that it's your MUA's fault. Telling someone to RTFM would be helpful, if the manual being referenced as indicated. Say, weren't you the guy who accused Robin of bad spelling? I suggest you should fix your grammar first. When exactly did I call Dave Sill an asshole? I simply made meantion that his HOWTO did not assist in my configuration of qmail. Did you, at any time, consider that this might not be the fault of the documentation but of your own? BTW: It's "mention", not "meantion". This is not a derogatory statement in any fashion. Simply a statement of fact. As for providing clarifications to the document, I very well may once I have qmail configured the way I would like it. What do we have to do to get you and your new-age psycho-babble self-help crap off this list? Please go away and watch a few hundred hours of the fine world-class US "let's all be happy and friendly" mind-control television. That ought to mellow you out a little. What brings me to post? Simple, I like to help people learn more about computing. To me it looks like you enjoy sabotaging other people's means of communication by clogging it with mindless and superfluous off-topic drivel like this very posting. Your discussion of social and meta problems indicates that you looking for topics that nobody understands enough to prove you wrong. Let me assure you: The qmail list is no such place. Why don't you go to soc.* in Usenet? You will meet millions of other people who like to talk about psychology and sociology. Felix
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Am Donnerstag, 30. November 2000 20:30 schrieb Barley: But if you come here, post moronic questions, get beaten for it, and then have the audacity to come back and whine publicly, then you are the most pathetic creature on Earth and deserve to die slowly and painfully. May the flies of a dozen dead camels' asses rest in your armpits! I cannot get over this attitude. Can it really be that the majority of the qmail community feels like old Felix here? Yes. I think you're worng. You see, you, like Felix, are a rude person who enjoys trashing newbies. You were the first person to get incredibly nasty about newbies yesterday, then that joker Robin...now this Felix character. It seem to me that you angry types form a vocal minority. Certainly, it has been a lot more friendly people who have helped me on this list. You people don't help anyone, but rather just mouth off and bolster your egos. Ask a question, answer a question, or post nothing, And waste your time deleteting 10 follow-ups like "oh this list is so impolite as nobody helps me". Better than having to delete those 10 messages plus 10 messages from angry egomaniacs like yourself, plus ten messages from people like me asking why you can't just act like an adult and treat people with respect. I mean, come on, "May the flies of a dozen dead camels' asses rest in your armpits!" is the kind of thing children say to one another. And to say it because someone didn't post a question correctly? Wow, you folks need to get your heads out of your asses. You are older than 12, right? Gregg Felix -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS| Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg www.bsws.de| Germany
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
"Barley" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I cannot get over this attitude. Can it really be that the majority of the qmail community feels like old Felix here? If I say "yes" can we kill this thread? -Dave
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Quoting John W. Lemons III ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
I've seen this over and over and over. Someone joins the list, probably
because they are having problems (the same reason I joined), posts a
question
Back in the day, it was prudent and _neccessary_ to do thorough
checking of the forum's archives and lurk before posting, unless you
wore fireproof undies. It's still true to this day, although it seems
that someone is complaining about this most basic Internet truth every
week (day?) on this list.
When you have a problem, subscribing to a mailing list and immediately
posting your question is unwise, as your problem has likely been asked
and answered dozens, if not hundreds, of times.
The vast, VAST majority of questions posted to this list in recent
memory have been asked and answered a bazillion times. Some don't
mind seeing them a bazillion times, most do.
This is Internet 101, but I'm afraid the deluge is starting drown us.
Inane questions are costing us all money. You could argue that it's a
fraction of a penny, but still, for those interested in actually
helping out those who pose good questions, it wastes time and money to
have to wade through those asking about shell syntax. Less noise
would mean UIC's 'net connection would be a little less-stressed, as
well. Alas, I expect trends to continue.
Why is it that all of these people are installing their Redhat CD's
and installing qmail without having the foggiest idea how it all fits
together? Why are they not doing their homework? It's all fine and
dandy for your home playground, but many of these questions are coming
from professionals working with production systems!
So many questions posted here really haven't anything to do with email
or qmail, but rather basic Unix administration fundamentals, which is
decidedly lacking among more and more of the world's Unix
"administrators" these days, it would seem (and not just the low-paid
ones, I'm afraid). Without understanding how your shell works, how to
decipher the syntax of your init scripts? There are many other
examples.
You don't just move from NT to any type of Unix without extensive
research and experience, save for your own home boxes or what not, or
unless you are particularly bright (again, obviously lacking among
many newbie posters here). If you can't do it yourself, then it's
wise to hire someone.
Now, when I installed qmail the first time for a production system, I
was subscribed to the qmail list for awhile already--I knew I HAD to
get rid of sendmaul, and I did my homework! I did it using only Dan's
docs in the qmail tarball! Yes. There was no LWQ. I also learned a
great deal just by reading this list for a month or two. It was PIECE
OF CAKE, especially when one has experience with such monstrosities as
INN--the poor souls having trouble with qmail and posting here would
shoot themselves. Some don't have the luxury of that much time or
experience, granted, but still, there's a limit. Having a firm grasp
of Unix and a little common sense goes a long ways. If you don't have
a firm grasp on Unix, then there are resources out there to help you,
on Usenet, the Web, in printed books, whatever.
The keys to success:
- Read the docs, then read more docs.
- Know the software, your OS, your shell, and basic Unix stuff like
file permissions ("my log says the .qmail file has an x bit set and
program delivery, and qmail won't deliver my mail! how do I fix it??"
how many times have I seen that?!) before you decide to put that new
qmail box in production! Argg. Or hire someone who does.
- Attention to detail.
Heck, there are probably others, but I can't stress the latter enough,
since it's apparent that attention to detail is non-existant for most of
those used to point-and-drool and that ask question on this list.
On a side note, I've tried to unsubscribe from the list because of exactly
this kind of crap from self-important jerks who seem to get a charge out of
kicking people when they are down, but the damn server tells me I'm not
subscribed so it can't unsubscribe me. Go figure.
Well, again, attention to detail is the key. Your envelope sender
address does not match the address that you were subscribed as, for
whatever reason. Look at this mail's return-path for a clue.
I've said enough. Pretty close to adding a rule for *Outlook* and
*Inernet Mail Service* (heh, "Service!") into my .procmailrc, though,
for mails to this list, with the SNR getting so bad among you all.
Sigh.
Aaron
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Thus spake Barley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Man, this Robin character is nuts. Coder-superiority syndrome big time. Why is it that tech geeks are so sure that their field of knowledge is the only one that indicates general intelligence? Hahaha, you idiot can't even be bothered to use a search engine to look Robin's previous work out to place a proper insult? What kind of pathetic wimp are you, anyway? Robin is not a coder. If Robin is anything like his/her mailing list personality in real life, I'm sure few people would consider him/her nearly as intelligent as he/she considers him/herself. True intelligence is indicated by a broader understanding of things, and the contributions that many different people have to offer. Hahaha, how can someone like _you_ dare to say anything about intelligence? Especially about other people's intelligence?! You wouldn't know intelligence when it fell on your foot! You mentioned Darwinism in a former post, Robin. How exactly is an angry geek who knows a whole lot about electronic boxes, but less than nothing about interacting successfully with the 5 billion other real-live people on the planet suited for survival in a Darwinian sense? Something tells me if you and I were dropped in the wilderness together, I'd be the one coming out alive, if only because I had you skewered on a spit over a fire within the first day. In fact it's hard to envision a role for you at all in any world that wasn't utterly computer-dependant. Robin's day job is not computer related. Now why don't you go answer some questions instead of flaming me back. Show us all how clever you are, Robin. Gregg, why don't you be a good boy and piss off. Go away. Leave. There is nobody here who has any interest in your pathetic flaming. And, now that you showed your real face, noone would help you even if you learned how to spell, how to quote or how to phrase your questions correctly. Begone, parasite. Felix
RE: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
I don't disagree with a lot of what you said, but I still fail to see why a newbie posting a question should illicit waves of vulgarity and self aggrandizing diatribes from a select few that have deemed themselves too busy to help, but not too busy to hurt. Back in "the day" (yes, I actually predate the web) I don't recall this kind of behavior being nearly as common as it is now. Granted this may be a reaction to an increase of newbie traffic, but that doesn't make it right, nor does it make the list any better, because newbies will come in regardless of how previous newbies are chastised by definition. -Original Message- From: Aaron L. Meehan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 3:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question) Quoting John W. Lemons III ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I've seen this over and over and over. Someone joins the list, probably because they are having problems (the same reason I joined), posts a question Back in the day, it was prudent and _neccessary_ to do thorough checking of the forum's archives and lurk before posting, unless you wore fireproof undies. It's still true to this day, although it seems that someone is complaining about this most basic Internet truth every week (day?) on this list. snip
HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 12:55:33PM -0800, Barley wrote: I think you're worng. STOP THIS BULLSHIT. NOW! IT'S ALREADY MORE THAN ENOUGH. And if you think you must continue, take it to private mail. \Maex
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Am Donnerstag, 30. November 2000 21:55 schrieb Barley: You see, you, like Felix, are a rude person who enjoys trashing newbies. You were the first person to get incredibly nasty about newbies yesterday, then that joker Robin...now this Felix character. It seem to me that you angry types form a vocal minority. Certainly, it has been a lot more friendly people who have helped me on this list. You people don't help anyone, but rather just mouth off and bolster your egos. I expect that everyone asking us for free advice thinks about the problem himself, provides necessary infos, has read the docs and is polite. nothing more. If anybody want's more, he should pay for help. Ask a question, answer a question, or post nothing, And waste your time deleteting 10 follow-ups like "oh this list is so impolite as nobody helps me". Better than having to delete those 10 messages plus 10 messages from angry egomaniacs like yourself, plus ten messages from people like me asking why you can't just act like an adult and treat people with respect. If only one of this stupid unable-to-read-the-documentation and unable-to-think nebies does not ask and decides to read again, it was worth it. -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS| Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg www.bsws.de| Germany
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Thus spake Barley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): You mentioned Darwinism in a former post, Robin. How exactly is an angry geek who knows a whole lot about electronic boxes, but less than nothing about interacting successfully with the 5 billion other real-live people on the planet suited for survival in a Darwinian sense? You wouldn't say that if you knew how many of us wanted to sleep with him. -- Kate http://www.katewerk.com
Re: HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
From: Markus Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] STOP THIS BULLSHIT. NOW! IT'S ALREADY MORE THAN ENOUGH. "...a dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than a riot. This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength." - Robert Anson Heinlein Isn't it interesting that Stumf, Leitner and Socha all come from Germany? Just a coincidence, I suppose. 'nough said. Armando
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 09:27:57PM +0100, Felix von Leitner wrote: Thus spake Dave Sill ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I'm not a big fan of newbie smackdowns, though a repeat offendor might warrant one. I think newbies generally respond better to reward than punishment. E.g., instead of: This is a question that I have asked numerous times and I never got a good response for it: Why would you want to help rude newbies? You wouldn't. But, unfortunately, someone ends up doing so, leading to a continuous wrong-doing trend. Don't get me wrong: helping newbies is essential for the survival of the knowledge. But if I have the choice, I will not help people who are so dumb that they will probably get killed the next day because they thought pissing on overland power lines is a bright idea. Ease down, Felix. Don't look at it as a matter of dumbness. It's more of an inadequacy issue. Keep reading; And that includes people who a. are too dumb to state their question properly (this includes bad grammar, bad spelling, bad quoting and obnoxious signatures) Please... The internet wasn't built for english speakers, nor by english speakers. But, as we all know, english (or english-ish approaches) is a common language for all of us. My own english is far from perfect, and I very often find myself twisting my brain trying to figure out what a supplier or business partner is trying to tell me in a meeting. As long as we're not talking about l33t dud3z, nor native speakers, that shouldn't be a problem. (at least not a major one) b. are too dumb to state their question in the proper forum That's not dumbness. That's rudeness or inadequacy. By inadequate, I'm talking about those guys who've never seen a unix shell until two days ago, have no clue whatsoever of what C is, expect the docs to _talk_ them step by step into procedures, or, the most common case, expect someone to give them an out-of-the-box solution for free. What frightens me is that more and more of these seem to be in charge of someone's mail, webspace, databases, whatever. They sould never, ever, be allowed to touch a damn root prompt, unless the machine is nowhere near a network. THAT's how people should learn. Unfortunately, a large group of new "sysadmins" are teaching themselves through experience in production environments and, what's worse, they're using either pre-built packages, or scripts someone else gave them (either because they were polite, or because they whined for a week and someone got tired and gave them a solution). This usually leads to a situation where things do work, but the "ladmin" has no clue on "why", "how", and "what to do if it fails". Also, more and more of these ladmins seem to be unaware of the fact that Linux isn't the only non-Windows OS. They don't know what Unix is. They have no idea of how to configure things without the nifty GTK or curses interface; and ultimately, editing source or slightly changing a script is a nightmarish idea. But what truly pisses me off is the fact that they expect a qmail (example) list to solve their problems with bash scripting, kernel options, DNS. And they don't seem to realize this is NOT the proper place to do so, and refuse to read the docs where answers to most issues are clear. But then again, if they have no Unix backgound or knowledge at all, how will a simple answer like "Change the uid of that directory to that of the user running the daemon" help? c. are not friendly (i.e. demand answer instead of being polite) Oh, well... Why doesn't everyone just ignore those? d. whine when someone points their mistakes out to them Hey, Felix... They're the Unix Gurus in there. They convinced everyone else NT was no good, and should be replaced. How dare WE tell them they're wrong? If he doesn't want to change his ways, then he is welcome to examine the inside of my spacious killfile. Noone is obligated to help idiots. In particular, I am not. Noone is. But the base fact is: They should never come this far without basic IT and Unix skills. RC -- +--- | Ricardo Cerqueira | PGP Key fingerprint - B7 05 13 CE 48 0A BF 1E 87 21 83 DB 28 DE 03 42 | Novis Telecom - Engenharia ISP / Rede Técnica | Pç. Duque Saldanha, 1, 7º E / 1050-094 Lisboa / Portugal | Tel: +351 2 1010 - Fax: +351 2 1010 4459 PGP signature
Re: HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
Isn't it interesting that Stumf, Leitner and Socha all come from Germany? Just a coincidence, I suppose. And that they all talk sweepingly of "genetic superiority"? I thought I was the only one who noticed... 'nough said. Armando
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Barley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes on 30 November 2000 at 11:30:46 -0800 But if you come here, post moronic questions, get beaten for it, and then have the audacity to come back and whine publicly, then you are the most pathetic creature on Earth and deserve to die slowly and painfully. May the flies of a dozen dead camels' asses rest in your armpits! I cannot get over this attitude. Can it really be that the majority of the qmail community feels like old Felix here? Well, no. And yes. I prefer that people who waste our time through laziness not be beaten; but I have no objection to people ignoring them, I often do myself. And if they come back whining about getting not help, and get a polite explanation of why not, and start flaming, well, by then I figure they've volunteered. I think that people who don't understand how far from qualified to install any MTA they are, and who don't understand the social dynamics of user community lists for complex technical products, and who don't seem to be interested in *learning* any of those things, are pretty pitiful. I stop short of thinking they deserve a slow, painful, death, myself, though. In other words, I agree with most of the analysis, but prefer to use gentler language in my descriptions. -- David Dyer-Bennet / Welcome to the future! / [EMAIL PROTECTED] SF: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ Minicon: http://www.mnstf.org/minicon/ Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Felix von Leitner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes on 30 November 2000 at 21:27:57 +0100 Thus spake Dave Sill ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I'm not a big fan of newbie smackdowns, though a repeat offendor might warrant one. I think newbies generally respond better to reward than punishment. E.g., instead of: This is a question that I have asked numerous times and I never got a good response for it: Why would you want to help rude newbies? It makes me feel superior. Also, it tends to keep the tone of the group more pleasant. Don't get me wrong: helping newbies is essential for the survival of the knowledge. But if I have the choice, I will not help people who are so dumb that they will probably get killed the next day because they thought pissing on overland power lines is a bright idea. I wouldn't want to go anywhere *close* to somebody that dumb; they might do something that would attract incoming fire, too. Luckily, they're rare. The exact category "pissing on overland power lines" doesn't seem to exist in the cause-of-death statistics, but at a rough guess there are, um, zero people killed that way each year. So I don't worry about them *too* much. And that includes people who a. are too dumb to state their question properly (this includes bad grammar, bad spelling, bad quoting and obnoxious signatures) Remembering that English is not the first language for everybody; I make considerably more allowances for somebody who is writing English better than I write German or Russian, than I do for people who obviously just aren't trying. b. are too dumb to state their question in the proper forum c. are not friendly (i.e. demand answer instead of being polite) d. whine when someone points their mistakes out to them If someone who matches any of those points wants my help, he has to pay for it. Or, he can be really really friendly to me. Or he can read the documentation that I put on my web page. If that is not sufficient, then that person is out of luck. No, I am not sorry. Your time, your rules. I certainly agree that my correct reponse to being caught in an error is somewhere in the range from "Ah! Thanks" to "Doh!" to "I see I was having a particularly braindead moment, thanks for bailing me out", and does not extend to whining. The former approach *might* work, but is more likely to offend the newbie. The latter is polite and informative. An educated, unoffended newbie is much more likely to want to change his ways. If he doesn't want to change his ways, then he is welcome to examine the inside of my spacious killfile. Noone is obligated to help idiots. In particular, I am not. True. You're welcome to killfile them, or just ignore the messages. You're certainly not under any obligation. And it's obvious that your attitude will be better if you don't try! Just so you don't get to the point of arguing that it's actively *wrong* to help them (which you haven't yet). -- David Dyer-Bennet / Welcome to the future! / [EMAIL PROTECTED] SF: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ Minicon: http://www.mnstf.org/minicon/ Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/
Re: HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
Barley wrote: And that they all talk sweepingly of "genetic superiority"? I thought I was the only one who noticed... Let's see, if USENET history is any indication, flame wars usually die down the moment people start calling each other Nazis. Glad to see this one's almost over. By the way, for what it's worth, my installation of Outlook Express seems to do replies the way its supposed to: "Re: " in the subject line, and a "References: " field in the header to keep the archive happy. I'm not saying this on behalf of Microsoft, but merely on behalf of me when I beg you not to set up filters based on what email client somebody is using. I'm good! Really I am! ---Kris Kelley
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Was the issue about an MX pointing to a CNAME ever resolved? Scott
Re: HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
Am Freitag, 1. Dezember 2000 00:54 schrieb asantos:
Isn't it interesting that Stumf, Leitner and Socha all come from Germany?
Just a coincidence, I suppose.
What about writing a rule for your mailer: if ( $sender =~ /.de$/ ) { kill
mail; }. Then you can happily read all the lusers bullshit without being
disturbed by us nazis tryin to get world domination. Maybe you won't get the
3rd world war announcement Germany will surely start soon, anyway.
--
Henning Brauer | BS Web Services
Hostmaster BSWS| Roedingsmarkt 14
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg
www.bsws.de| Germany
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
about interacting successfully with the 5 billion other real-live people on the planet suited for survival in a Darwinian sense? You wouldn't say that if you knew how many of us wanted to sleep with him. -- Kate http://www.katewerk.com Hrm i thought Robin was a woman ;) Rick
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Quoting rmiddleton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): about interacting successfully with the 5 billion other real-live people on the planet suited for survival in a Darwinian sense? You wouldn't say that if you knew how many of us wanted to sleep with him. Hrm i thought Robin was a woman ;) You wouldn't believe how much money we made with that webcam... -- Robin S. Socha http://socha.net/ "If you are too low a lifeform to be able to learn how to use the manual page subsystem, why should we help you?" (Theo de Raadt)
Re: HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
From: Henning Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Isn't it interesting that Stumf, Leitner and Socha all come from Germany?
Just a coincidence, I suppose.
What about writing a rule for your mailer: if ( $sender =~ /.de$/ ) { kill
mail; }. Then you can happily read all the lusers bullshit without being
disturbed by us nazis tryin to get world domination. Maybe you won't get
the
3rd world war announcement Germany will surely start soon, anyway.
Sorry, I'll rephrase that:
"Isn't it interesting that Stumf, Leitner, Socha and Brauer all come from
Germany?
Just a coincidence, I suppose."
I didn't mention nazis, NSAP or world domination. I hope I haven't struck a
raw nerve there.
As for that perly thing... can you please rewrite it in Plankalkul?
Armando
Re: HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
On Fri, 01 Dec 2000, Henning Brauer wrote:
What about writing a rule for your mailer: if ( $sender =~ /.de$/ ) {
kill mail; }. Then you can happily read all the lusers bullshit
without being disturbed by us nazis tryin to get world domination.
Maybe you won't get the 3rd world war announcement Germany will
surely start soon, anyway.
Bwah, if you are happy with sending another few million of your youth
to die in the battlefields, then go ahead. But a better idea would be
a civil war, that way the rest of the world won't take you accountable
for anything this time (and surely you'll win this time).
Sorry, couldn't help it.
--
"California no longer exists, the dream is long dead ..."
- Mediterraneo -
Re: HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 03:21:40PM -0800, Barley wrote: Isn't it interesting that Stumf, Leitner and Socha all come from Germany? Just a coincidence, I suppose. And that they all talk sweepingly of "genetic superiority"? I thought I was the only one who noticed... Isn't it funny, how *some* people that live in a country and a culture - that killed thousands of black people - that killed thousands of red indians - that killed thousands of people with the atomic bomb - that killed thousands of people in Vietnam - that still has racial discrimination in their own country - that has a Ku Klux Clan - that practises capital punishment - who's number of nazi supporters outnumbers those in the rest of the world - who has the highest crime rate in "western civilation" - where it is forbidden to show naked breasts (you know the things you got your first meal from in your life) on TV, but it is prefectly ok to broadcast a detailed sequence of a man chopping off the head of another man with a chainsaw during children's hour still feel so superior to the rest of the world? And isn't it funny that the same people at the end always come down to calling every German a nazi, really a sign of high grade intelligence and that really "indicates a broader understanding of things". Oh, and isn't it interesting that Barley, asantos and Collins all use Microsoft MUAs? And did you notice that their names don't contain the vowel "u"? Just a coincidence, I suppose ... A few people on this list have asked to stop that thread. But I think it was too well hidden for you to understand. So I posted some capital letters. Maybe you still didn't understand, maybe you're one of those who always have to have the last word/post. Hey, hurry up, send a reply and you've won! \Maex
Re: HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
Am Donnerstag, 30. November 2000 22:21 schrieb Horacio:
On Fri, 01 Dec 2000, Henning Brauer wrote:
What about writing a rule for your mailer: if ( $sender =~ /.de$/ ) {
kill mail; }. Then you can happily read all the lusers bullshit
without being disturbed by us nazis tryin to get world domination.
Maybe you won't get the 3rd world war announcement Germany will
surely start soon, anyway.
Bwah, if you are happy with sending another few million of your youth
to die in the battlefields, then go ahead. But a better idea would be
a civil war, that way the rest of the world won't take you accountable
for anything this time (and surely you'll win this time).
I'm getting the impression you haven't got the irony.
Sorry, couldn't help it.
--
Henning Brauer | BS Web Services
Hostmaster BSWS| Roedingsmarkt 14
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg
www.bsws.de| Germany
RE: HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
Isn't it funny, how *some* people that live in a country and a culture - that killed thousands of black people - that killed thousands of red indians - that killed thousands of people with the atomic bomb - that killed thousands of people in Vietnam You forgot the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, both in the war and after, whom we're still trodding under the boots of our puppet apparatus, the so called "United Nations." -- gowen -- Greg Owen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Hrm i thought Robin was a woman ;) You wouldn't believe how much money we made with that webcam... -- Robin S. Socha http://socha.net/ hah! that owns! now smack your dad for the chick's name ;)
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Thus spake David Dyer-Bennet ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): a. are too dumb to state their question properly (this includes bad grammar, bad spelling, bad quoting and obnoxious signatures) Remembering that English is not the first language for everybody; I make considerably more allowances for somebody who is writing English better than I write German or Russian, than I do for people who obviously just aren't trying. English is not my mother tongue. I expect from others what I expect from myself. I would never post a question in German or ultra-broken Mandarin to a Chinese mailing list. If your English is so bad that your English teacher commited suicide with a flame thrower after reading your essays, then you need more practice and should not post to mailing lists. Buy a few tapes or whatever. If I can't understand your question, I can't answer you. It is in your own interest to phrase it correctly. If he doesn't want to change his ways, then he is welcome to examine the inside of my spacious killfile. Noone is obligated to help idiots. In particular, I am not. True. You're welcome to killfile them, or just ignore the messages. You're certainly not under any obligation. And it's obvious that your attitude will be better if you don't try! If that was a solution, I would be doing it instead of talking about it. The fact is that I still see the hundreds of replies from others, no matter how deep I bury the idiots in my killfile. So not only do they still cause traffic to my SMTP server that I have to pay, they also cost me precious time. So the only real solution is to get rid of the lusers for good. I hope to discourage them by flaming a few of the particularly nasty ones here. Just so you don't get to the point of arguing that it's actively *wrong* to help them (which you haven't yet). If they are rude and you help them, you tell the lurkers that it's OK to be rude because you are helped anyway. And, if I killfile rude lusers, and you answer to them in public, I will still waste time reading your reply, which will quote the question from the idiot so I will still see it. So: yes, I think nobody should answer rude questions. Felix
Re: HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
* Markus Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] [001130 20:23]: Isn't it funny, how *some* people that live in a country and a culture - that killed thousands of black people [snip] Yeah yeah yeah, at least *we* know that David Hasselhof is talentless. /pg -- Peter Green : Gospel Communications Network, SysAdmin : [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Many computer scientists have fallen into the trap of trying to define languages like George Orwell's Newspeak, in which it is impossible to think bad thoughts. What they end up doing is killing the creativity of programming. --- Larry Wall
Re: HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
Thus spake Markus Stumpf ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): - who has the highest crime rate in "western civilation" - where it is forbidden to show naked breasts (you know the things you got your first meal from in your life) on TV, but it is prefectly ok to broadcast a detailed sequence of a man chopping off the head of another man with a chainsaw during children's hour still feel so superior to the rest of the world? Heck, they can't even elect a president ;-) Who can take a country seriously where ten percent of the population are in prison? Felix
Re: HELL, STOP IT (was: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question))
Thus spake Barley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): And that they all talk sweepingly of "genetic superiority"? I thought I was the only one who noticed... It was you who brought that term up. Felix
RE: Newbie question
PLEASE DO NOT READ NEWBIE QUESTION IF WANT TO USE THOSE DEROGATORY STATEMENTS .YU DONT EVEN HELP EITHER .I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE TO HELP! -Original Message- From: Henning Brauer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 6:55 AM To: suresh; Qmail-Ldap@Argus. Pipeline. Ch Subject: Re: Newbie question Am Mittwoch, 29. November 2000 13:24 schrieb suresh: You are giving us much to less infos to help you. Check if the file mentioned in the error message exists and is world readable. If not, RTFM before asking here. Hi I have installed qmail-ldap patch,whenever i start the qmail ,i get this info I have made a file in the control folder and i tried by entering the ip address as well as by the dns name i am not able start the debug process even after i set the env variable ,Is there any particular syntax i should be calling qmail-start for this? bash-2.03# Nov 29 11:11:21 qmailjol qmail: [ID 748625 mail.alert] 975467481.7424 69 alert: cannot start qmail-lspawn or it had an error! Check if ~control/ldapse rver exists Suresh Mithi.com Pvt. Ltd. -- Send and receive mail in Indian languages Register free at http://www.mailjol.com -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS | Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg www.bsws.de| Germany
Re: Newbie question
Am Mittwoch, 29. November 2000 15:11 schrieb suresh: Suresh, for first writing such nonsens to the list and asking me for help off list does not fit together. before asking other busy people for help (it is no paid support staff here, we all have our work to do!), you should -have read the docs at least twice -checked if you fulfilled the requirements for qmail-ldap, both on you installation and youself (yes, the wonderfull sentence "you should have fairly good knowledge of qmail and ldap..." and so on in bold letters aside to the dowload link on the wepages -if you ask a question, provide all necessary information, in general as much as possible. At least OS, versions (including patch version), _complete_ logs, configuration -checked all logs yourself, including ldap logs, set loglevel to highest possible value - helps a lot PLEASE DO NOT READ NEWBIE QUESTION IF WANT TO USE THOSE DEROGATORY STATEMENTS .YU DONT EVEN HELP EITHER .I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE TO HELP! -Original Message- From: Henning Brauer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 6:55 AM To: suresh; Qmail-Ldap@Argus. Pipeline. Ch Subject: Re: Newbie question Am Mittwoch, 29. November 2000 13:24 schrieb suresh: You are giving us much to less infos to help you. Check if the file mentioned in the error message exists and is world readable. If not, RTFM before asking here. Hi I have installed qmail-ldap patch,whenever i start the qmail ,i get this info I have made a file in the control folder and i tried by entering the ip address as well as by the dns name i am not able start the debug process even after i set the env variable ,Is there any particular syntax i should be calling qmail-start for this? bash-2.03# Nov 29 11:11:21 qmailjol qmail: [ID 748625 mail.alert] 975467481.7424 69 alert: cannot start qmail-lspawn or it had an error! Check if ~control/ldapse rver exists Suresh Mithi.com Pvt. Ltd. -- Send and receive mail in Indian languages Register free at http://www.mailjol.com -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS | Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg www.bsws.de| Germany -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS | Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg www.bsws.de| Germany
List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
I may be out of line here. However, this is not the first time I've seen snappy rude responses from people in response to others asking for help. I am simply quoting this message as it is the most recent. Sure, some of the postings for help may not contain all the information that a more experienced person would have. But to respond to them with a statement to the effect of "send all necessary information" is crazy. There is a certain level of experience necessary to know what may or may not be needed to diagnose a problem. As many of the people posting without this level of information are new to either Linux or qmail (or both) there needs to be some understanding on everyone's behalf. And telling someone to RTFM is normally of little to no help. I've been told several times to RTFM without any indication as to which manual. This is of little to no help to anyone. As for qmail, I will be the first to tell you that LWQ and the installation instructions with qmail itself are for the most part highly inadequate. I tried setting qmail up just from the instructions included with the source twice, with no luck. Additionally, I tried LWQ twice, with no luck. It wasn't until I purchased "Running qmail." that I actually got the thing to work. I'm sure that if I went back to either set of instructions (source or LWQ) that both would be adequate for the installation now that I've done it before. However herein lies the problem. The documentation that currently exists is really only helpful to someone that has already installed the software once before. But, I've digressed. IMHO, everyone that is offering help via a list such as this should be courteous to those asking for help. If you can't be courteous, I ask that you please refrain from posting. Snapping at a user asking for help will accomplish nothing more than making the user angry and hesitant from posting in the future. IIRC, these are not the goals of this list or any other support list. I realize, as do most of the user's posting, that support here is provided by individuals donating their time of their own free will. All I ask is that common courtesy be extended to those asking for help. Jamin W. Collins -Original Message- From: Henning Brauer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 3:11 AM To: suresh; Qmail-Ldap@Argus. Pipeline. Ch Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie question Am Mittwoch, 29. November 2000 15:11 schrieb suresh: Suresh, for first writing such nonsens to the list and asking me for help off list does not fit together. before asking other busy people for help (it is no paid support staff here, we all have our work to do!), you should -have read the docs at least twice -checked if you fulfilled the requirements for qmail-ldap, both on you installation and youself (yes, the wonderfull sentence "you should have fairly good knowledge of qmail and ldap..." and so on in bold letters aside to the dowload link on the wepages -if you ask a question, provide all necessary information, in general as much as possible. At least OS, versions (including patch version), _complete_ logs, configuration -checked all logs yourself, including ldap logs, set loglevel to highest possible value - helps a lot PLEASE DO NOT READ NEWBIE QUESTION IF WANT TO USE THOSE DEROGATORY STATEMENTS .YU DONT EVEN HELP EITHER .I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE TO HELP! -Original Message- From: Henning Brauer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 6:55 AM To: suresh; Qmail-Ldap@Argus. Pipeline. Ch Subject: Re: Newbie question Am Mittwoch, 29. November 2000 13:24 schrieb suresh: You are giving us much to less infos to help you. Check if the file mentioned in the error message exists and is world readable. If not, RTFM before asking here. Hi I have installed qmail-ldap patch,whenever i start the qmail ,i get this info I have made a file in the control folder and i tried by entering the ip address as well as by the dns name i am not able start the debug process even after i set the env variable ,Is there any particular syntax i should be calling qmail-start for this? bash-2.03# Nov 29 11:11:21 qmailjol qmail: [ID 748625 mail.alert] 975467481.7424 69 alert: cannot start qmail-lspawn or it had an error! Check if ~control/ldapse rver exists Suresh Mithi.com Pvt. Ltd. -- Send and receive mail in Indian languages Register free at http://www.mailjol.com -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS | Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg www.bsws.de| Germany -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS | Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg www.bsws.de| Germany
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
I absolutely agree with this. I have never seen so many rude and useless responses to pleas for help on any other list that I subscribe to. Yes, there are times when the answer is documented somewhere but the documentation available is poorly organized making it very difficult for someone who is new to their operating system and/or qmail to find the answer. For me, I was able to get qmail working with the INSTALL files for at least my simple test system. I have not tried to install using LWQ but I couldn't help but notice some differences in the way things are installed using LWQ versus the INSTALL files. Now which is right? One of the reasons I am trying qmail is that I heard it was far more efficient than using sendmail especially when handling large volumes of mail. This fact, at least, seems to be true for the tests I have run. My next goal was to migrate all of our domains from sendmail to qmail but considering the documentation and some of the support that has been forthcoming from this list, I have my doubts about reccommending that course of action. Don't get me wrong, I have seen and received useful help from this list. Hopefully, we can all learn to be tolerent of people who ask questions that have "obvious" answers. I think we have all been there before. Warren Small Jamin Collins wrote: I may be out of line here. However, this is not the first time I've seen snappy rude responses from people in response to others asking for help. I am simply quoting this message as it is the most recent. Sure, some of the postings for help may not contain all the information that a more experienced person would have. But to respond to them with a statement to the effect of "send all necessary information" is crazy. There is a certain level of experience necessary to know what may or may not be needed to diagnose a problem. As many of the people posting without this level of information are new to either Linux or qmail (or both) there needs to be some understanding on everyone's behalf. And telling someone to RTFM is normally of little to no help. I've been told several times to RTFM without any indication as to which manual. This is of little to no help to anyone. As for qmail, I will be the first to tell you that LWQ and the installation instructions with qmail itself are for the most part highly inadequate. I tried setting qmail up just from the instructions included with the source twice, with no luck. Additionally, I tried LWQ twice, with no luck. It wasn't until I purchased "Running qmail." that I actually got the thing to work. I'm sure that if I went back to either set of instructions (source or LWQ) that both would be adequate for the installation now that I've done it before. However herein lies the problem. The documentation that currently exists is really only helpful to someone that has already installed the software once before. But, I've digressed. IMHO, everyone that is offering help via a list such as this should be courteous to those asking for help. If you can't be courteous, I ask that you please refrain from posting. Snapping at a user asking for help will accomplish nothing more than making the user angry and hesitant from posting in the future. IIRC, these are not the goals of this list or any other support list. I realize, as do most of the user's posting, that support here is provided by individuals donating their time of their own free will. All I ask is that common courtesy be extended to those asking for help. Jamin W. Collins -Original Message- From: Henning Brauer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 3:11 AM To: suresh; Qmail-Ldap@Argus. Pipeline. Ch Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Newbie question Am Mittwoch, 29. November 2000 15:11 schrieb suresh: Suresh, for first writing such nonsens to the list and asking me for help off list does not fit together. before asking other busy people for help (it is no paid support staff here, we all have our work to do!), you should -have read the docs at least twice -checked if you fulfilled the requirements for qmail-ldap, both on you installation and youself (yes, the wonderfull sentence "you should have fairly good knowledge of qmail and ldap..." and so on in bold letters aside to the dowload link on the wepages -if you ask a question, provide all necessary information, in general as much as possible. At least OS, versions (including patch version), _complete_ logs, configuration -checked all logs yourself, including ldap logs, set loglevel to highest possible value - helps a lot PLEASE DO NOT READ NEWBIE QUESTION IF WANT TO USE THOSE DEROGATORY STATEMENTS .YU DONT EVEN HELP EITHER .I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE TO HELP! -Original Message- From: Henning Brauer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, Novem
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
I don't see your problem. he was on the wrong list as this is qmail-ldap specific. he posted to the qmail-ldap list too, so nobody can tell me he didn't know about this list. I answered anyway. I asked him if the file mentioned in the error msg exists. if so, i requested more info than one line of log. if not this had proven that he didn't read a single line of documentation. in general everybody posting questions here should have a thought who's answering, and that these people are no paid support staff. so i can expect that the poster has -read the docs -spent some thoughts one what he's writing -spent some thoughts on what information would be needed for support -provided full logs somewhere for download If he only posts a single line from the log without even mentioning the file exists and it is readable, without telling us os, qmail version, patch version, ldap server and version, it's somehow sure that he hasn't spent any thought on that. Dan used a subject of "How to discourage free software support" on a mail regarding this on the dns list. that's exactly the point IMHO. btw, i did my first qmail installation (long tome ago...) within one hour and without any third party documentation aside from a problem with daemontools, i solved this with a short look to lwq. i don't know why you did not succeed, but telling us "the docs are all so bad because i couldn't install qmail with them" is an inadequate statement. Greetings Henning -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS | Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg www.bsws.de| Germany
RE: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
How exactly is my MUA broken? I've included the original text of the message I've responded to. I've simply chosen not to add anything to the beginning of each line of the original message. Now, you've resorted to name calling? Quite the original. How does a request for common courtesy indicate a need for professional help? Telling someone to RTFM would be helpful, if the manual being referenced as indicated. As there are several files in the qmail distribution that all refer to other documents, it is possible that some may not locate the correct manual. When exactly did I call Dave Sill an asshole? I simply made meantion that his HOWTO did not assist in my configuration of qmail. This is not a derogatory statement in any fashion. Simply a statement of fact. As for providing clarifications to the document, I very well may once I have qmail configured the way I would like it. If you see the questions of users on this list as bothersome, I'm sorry. However, as membership to the list is voluntary, you are not being forced to read them. In short, if you don't like them, don't read them. What brings me to post? Simple, I like to help people learn more about computing. I also like to learn what I can where I can. Again, I'm sorry this doesn't fight your perception of the computer industry. Jamin W. Collins -Original Message- From: Robin S. Socha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 9:19 AM To: qmail mailing list Subject: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question) * Jamin Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] whines: I may be out of line here. However, this is not the first time I've seen snappy rude responses from people in response to others asking for help. I am simply quoting this message as it is the most recent. *sigh* Is it September again? Just for completeness' sake: not only is your MUA broken to the degree of utter braindeadness, you've also included 60 linux of *un*quoted quotes. Has anyone called you a clueless luser lately? There is a certain level of experience necessary to know what may or may not be needed to diagnose a problem. As many of the people posting without this level of information are new to either Linux or qmail (or both) there needs to be some understanding on everyone's behalf. Like what? If you need professional support, there are links galore on http://qmail.org/. If you want to be spoonfed, you're simply looking in the wrong place. And telling someone to RTFM is normally of little to no help. The qmail docs are terse but exhaustive. We're not talking about running $PORNO_VIEWER.exe but about a mail server - if you're too stupid to manage even the initial setup, you *just* *don't* *need* *one*. As for qmail, I will be the first to tell you that LWQ and the installation instructions with qmail itself are for the most part highly inadequate. Not quite. They're just not idiot-proof. But you've found that our yourself already. I tried setting qmail up just from the instructions included with the source twice, with no luck. See, that's your problem: contrary to popular superstition (fed by the New Cultural Imperialism from Redmond) it does not take /luck/ to install software. It takes /knowledge/. You appear to have neither. Well, tough luck. Additionally, I tried LWQ twice, with no luck. Yeah, right, Dave Sill really *is* an asshole: charging breathtaking amounts of money for his crappy docs and not even dumbing them down so that an amoeba^W^Wyou can understand them. It's free software, lackwit: contribute nothing, expect nothing. Why didn't you fix the passages that were "inadequate" and send Dave the patches, Jamin? [...] The documentation that currently exists is really only helpful to someone that has already installed the software once before. U... nope. [...] Snapping at a user asking for help will accomplish nothing more than making the user angry and hesitant from posting in the future. Do I care about angry lusers? I don't think so. Is it a Good Thing if they don't bother people trying to get some work done? Sure is. So there. IIRC, these are not the goals of this list or any other support list. It might come as a suprise to you and your likes, but this is /not/ a support list. It's a discussion list. If you want support, you can find the links to comm... All I ask is that common courtesy be extended to those asking for help. Sure. Now, be a kind luser and do your reading. When you're done and have reached the minimum level of cluefullness required for running an internet service, come back and ask informed questions. Sometimes I wonder what brings people like you to posting this whining luser shit over and over and over again? This is not your new-age pink treehuggers society - this is a technical discussion list. IT-Darwinism, y'know? Survival of the brightest and, like, stuff. Huh-huh. -- Robin S. Socha Enhanced for MSIE 5.5: http://socha.net/
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
on 11/29/00 9:47 AM, Jamin Collins at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All I ask is that common courtesy be extended to those asking for help. The people who often provide help simply expect the same sort of courtesy. Remember who's doing whom the favor, and that this list is about qmail, not Unix. If you want to learn Unix, either find a Unix (list|book|shell) and use it, or cleverly couch your Unix difficulties to appear as politely framed qmail questions. - Amitai
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
on 11/29/00 11:10 AM, Jamin Collins at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you see the questions of users on this list as bothersome, I'm sorry. However, as membership to the list is voluntary, you are not being forced to read them. In short, if you don't like them, don't read them. Sure. And if you don't like the responses you get, you're also free to ignore them, or to unsubscribe. - Amitai
RE: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Since you've asked, my problem with your posting specifically is as follows: Suresh, for first writing such nonsens to the list and asking me for help off list does not fit together. before asking other busy people for help (it is no paid support staff here, we all have our work to do!), you should There is no need to refer to his posting as "such nonsense". Additionally, there is no call/need for the statement about "busy people". I believe it is well known that people read this list on their time and any answer is essentially a donation from their time. However, conversely, no one is forced to read or answer these postings. Everyone (to my knowledge) does this of their own free will. As such, asking for help (whether on the right list or not) is in no way wrong. Berating someone for doing so is rude. I'm glad your installation went so smoothly. However, many other's do not. I'm sure that many of these come down to simply syntax errors. I will admit that I had a few in my first installations. These would have been easily corrected by another set of eyes. However, due to the repeatedly rude and snappy reply's from this list, I did not post concerning my initial problems. As for the statement you claim I made "the docs are all so bad because i couldn't install qmail with them", I did not say this. I simply stated that I was unsuccessfull in my attempts to install qmail using them. I did not state they were bad, I even stated that I was sure they would be of help if I were to use them at my current point. In short, I believe they may be a little lacking when it comes to helping someone completely new to qmail. This may not be the case of all new users, but it is the case for at least a few. Jamin W. Collins -Original Message- From: Henning Brauer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 9:35 AM To: Jamin Collins; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question) I don't see your problem. he was on the wrong list as this is qmail-ldap specific. he posted to the qmail-ldap list too, so nobody can tell me he didn't know about this list. I answered anyway. I asked him if the file mentioned in the error msg exists. if so, i requested more info than one line of log. if not this had proven that he didn't read a single line of documentation. in general everybody posting questions here should have a thought who's answering, and that these people are no paid support staff. so i can expect that the poster has -read the docs -spent some thoughts one what he's writing -spent some thoughts on what information would be needed for support -provided full logs somewhere for download If he only posts a single line from the log without even mentioning the file exists and it is readable, without telling us os, qmail version, patch version, ldap server and version, it's somehow sure that he hasn't spent any thought on that. Dan used a subject of "How to discourage free software support" on a mail regarding this on the dns list. that's exactly the point IMHO. btw, i did my first qmail installation (long tome ago...) within one hour and without any third party documentation aside from a problem with daemontools, i solved this with a short look to lwq. i don't know why you did not succeed, but telling us "the docs are all so bad because i couldn't install qmail with them" is an inadequate statement. Greetings Henning -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS | Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg www.bsws.de| Germany
RE: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
How exactly is my MUA broken? It isn't, the user is broken. The user incorrectly decided that everyone would just love to see the full text of the original message (perhaps in case they inexplicably missed it the first time!), and that it needed no marking to make it clear to readers that it isn't new material. -- gowen -- Greg Owen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Sometimes I wonder what brings people like you to posting this whining luser shit over and over and over again? This is not your new-age pink treehuggers society - this is a technical discussion list. IT-Darwinism, y'know? Survival of the brightest and, like, stuff. Huh-huh. -- Robin S. Socha If this list were, as it seems you, sir/ma'am (sorry, your name is gender-neutral), would prefer, populated exclusively by people who already know all there is to know about qmail; about what (I'm curious) would you discuss? Perhaps we should ask someone to start a qmail-newbies list so that A) the newbies can go somewhere where they know they stand a chance of at least having their issues addressed by other more knowledgeable individuals who don't MIND helping the "clueless" because they were "there" too one day; and B) the elitists won't be bothered anymore and can commence to posting messages in binary and stop catering to us idiots who are still hung up on the inefficiencies of English as a language. :-| ...ROMeyn -- signat-url: http://www2.potsdam.edu/dctm/prescor/signat-url.htm cubiclecam: http://digirom.potsdam.edu/~prescor/cubiclecam.html ^^^ --- Off-line unless someone knows how to get camserv to compile under RedHat 7... *sigh* :-(
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
* Jamin Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How exactly is my MUA broken? * Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" * No reference headers (*GREAT* for breaking archives) * 6 attribution lines * No citation leader * Trailing blank line I've included the original text of the message I've responded to. How very useful. I've simply chosen not to add anything to the beginning of each line of the original message. Rather "I'm too fscking stupid to even find it among 2001 menues in Outlook", eh? How does a request for common courtesy indicate a need for professional help? In general or in your particular case? What brings me to post? Simple, I like to help people learn more about computing. The blind leading... C'mon, Jamin, you've had your 264 lines of fame. Now go away, will you? You're about to start a war you'll never understand. -- Robin S. Socha http://socha.net/
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
on 11/29/00 11:22 AM, Jamin Collins at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As such, asking for help (whether on the right list or not) is in no way wrong. Berating someone for doing so is rude. It might also be considered rude to post to the wrong list, or to ask for help without providing useful information. However, due to the repeatedly rude and snappy reply's from this list, I did not post concerning my initial problems. You most definitely won't get help that way! In short, I believe [the docs] may be a little lacking when it comes to helping someone completely new to qmail. s/qmail/Unix/, and I'd agree. But I wouldn't call that a shortcoming of the documentation. - Amitai
RE: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
I've seen this over and over and over. Someone joins the list, probably because they are having problems (the same reason I joined), posts a question, and then has to wade through the wave of crap thrown back at them by a bunch of rude jerks with nothing better to do with their time that to berate you and tell you they are too busy to be bothered. The mind boggles at how important their work is that they are unable to help, yet they have plenty of time to post novella's about how busy they are and how lazy you are for not solving the problem without their help. I gotta hint, don't wanna bother with a person's question? DON'T ANSWER IT! There, wasn't that easy? On a side note, I've tried to unsubscribe from the list because of exactly this kind of crap from self-important jerks who seem to get a charge out of kicking people when they are down, but the damn server tells me I'm not subscribed so it can't unsubscribe me. Go figure. -Original Message- From: Jamin Collins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 10:22 AM To: 'Henning Brauer'; Jamin Collins; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: List Courtesy (was Newbie question) Since you've asked, my problem with your posting specifically is as follows: Suresh, for first writing such nonsens to the list and asking me for help off list does not fit together. before asking other busy people for help (it is no paid support staff here, we all have our work to do!), you should There is no need to refer to his posting as "such nonsense". Additionally, there is no call/need for the statement about "busy people". I believe it is well known that people read this list on their time and any answer is essentially a donation from their time. However, conversely, no one is forced to read or answer these postings. Everyone (to my knowledge) does this of their own free will. As such, asking for help (whether on the right list or not) is in no way wrong. Berating someone for doing so is rude. I'm glad your installation went so smoothly. However, many other's do not. I'm sure that many of these come down to simply syntax errors. I will admit that I had a few in my first installations. These would have been easily corrected by another set of eyes. However, due to the repeatedly rude and snappy reply's from this list, I did not post concerning my initial problems. As for the statement you claim I made "the docs are all so bad because i couldn't install qmail with them", I did not say this. I simply stated that I was unsuccessfull in my attempts to install qmail using them. I did not state they were bad, I even stated that I was sure they would be of help if I were to use them at my current point. In short, I believe they may be a little lacking when it comes to helping someone completely new to qmail. This may not be the case of all new users, but it is the case for at least a few. Jamin W. Collins -Original Message- From: Henning Brauer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 9:35 AM To: Jamin Collins; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question) I don't see your problem. he was on the wrong list as this is qmail-ldap specific. he posted to the qmail-ldap list too, so nobody can tell me he didn't know about this list. I answered anyway. I asked him if the file mentioned in the error msg exists. if so, i requested more info than one line of log. if not this had proven that he didn't read a single line of documentation. in general everybody posting questions here should have a thought who's answering, and that these people are no paid support staff. so i can expect that the poster has -read the docs -spent some thoughts one what he's writing -spent some thoughts on what information would be needed for support -provided full logs somewhere for download If he only posts a single line from the log without even mentioning the file exists and it is readable, without telling us os, qmail version, patch version, ldap server and version, it's somehow sure that he hasn't spent any thought on that. Dan used a subject of "How to discourage free software support" on a mail regarding this on the dns list. that's exactly the point IMHO. btw, i did my first qmail installation (long tome ago...) within one hour and without any third party documentation aside from a problem with daemontools, i solved this with a short look to lwq. i don't know why you did not succeed, but telling us "the docs are all so bad because i couldn't install qmail with them" is an inadequate statement. Greetings Henning -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS | Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg www.bsws.de| Germany
Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
Jamin Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How exactly is my MUA broken? I've included the original text of the message I've responded to. I've simply chosen not to add anything to the beginning of each line of the original message. Hence the breakage. Netiquette dictates that replies be identified by prefacing each line with ' ' or '' -- many peoples' MUAs highlight text by looking for these markers. It makes reading your mail much more difficult for the rest of us. If you see the questions of users on this list as bothersome, I'm sorry. Most of us don't mind users asking questions, after they have made a reasonable effort to understand the problem themselves, by doing _all_ of the following: -read all the documentation that comes with qmail, preferably at least twice. This includes the man pages and other text documentation. -especially read Dan's FAQs (the one included with the source, and the one at cr.yp.to) -read the various hints tips at www.qmail.org, and the various user-contributed documentation that are referenced there -read "Life with qmail" by Dave Sill -read through the archives of this list for people with similar problems in the past. We've seen all of these questions. Anyone who posts one of the most-commonly asked questions to the list, without having done all the above, is (in effect) saying "My time is more valuable than the time of the people I am asking for help". Some people tend to get a little annoyed at this type of attitude. Charles -- --- Charles Cazabon[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPL'ed software available at: http://www.qcc.sk.ca/~charlesc/software/ Any opinions expressed are just that -- my opinions. ---
RE: List Courtesy (was Newbie question)
I don't disagree with anything you said. My mail wasn't aimed at the people who politely say RTFM and provide pointers to said FM. It was aimed at the jack asses that spend their time berating newbies and clogging the group with diatribes about how important their time is, rather than providing constructive input. If they don't believe the person "deserves" their input, why spend all that time belittling them? I don't see how I misunderstood anything. -Original Message- From: Matt Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 11:34 AM To: John W. Lemons III Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: List Courtesy (was Newbie question) "John W. Lemons III" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The mind boggles at how important their work is that they are unable to help, yet they have plenty of time to post novella's about how busy they are and how lazy you are for not solving the problem without their help. This shows just how much you misunderstand. The people who know qmail are not mad at you and the people you're defending because they're too busy, or anything like that. It's the attitude that mailing lists like this are free resources that can be exploited. Places you can take from without giving. Get this through your head: NOTHING IS FREE. Nobody is obligated to help you for free. Whining because nobody is willing to do your work for you for no recompense is NOT appreciated. Sure, nobody gets paid for giving advice here, but it doesn't mean that it's for free. The cost of being helped is that YOU have to do most of the work. If you don't like that fee structure, then go to somebody you pay dollars for. People will willingly volunteer their expertise, their knowledge; they will NOT volunteer to do all the hard work for you. Why do you expect them to?
