Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
I'm not sure I understand. Does this whole process step 1-5 replace Level 1? If so this is more challenging than the current level 1 But if step 1 is level 1 and step 5 is level 5 (which I think you are representing) then this is very easy. Almost any competent pilot can do the taks. If this is to replace level 1 how will the novice enter. This can be quite a lot for a novice. Bob Johnson wrote: Jeff, Would you perceive the following to be a set of tasks that is at least as difficult as LSF Level 1? Step 1 1. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 3 minutes. 2. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 3 minutes but not more than 3 minutes 30 seconds, and a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 3. 5 consecutive flights; flight 1 must have a duration of at least 2 minutes. The ensuing flights must have durations of at least 3, 4, 5, and 6 minutes. 4. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 4 minutes and a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. Step 2 1. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 4 minutes. 2. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 4 minutes but not more than 4 minutes 30 seconds, and landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 3. 5 consecutive flights; flight 1 must have a duration of at least 3 minutes. The ensuing flights must have durations of at least 4, 5, 6, and 7 minutes. 4. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 4 minutes, and landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 5. Three consecutive flights with an accumulated time of at least 15 minutes. Each of the three flights must be at least 3 minutes in duration. Step 3 1. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 5 minutes. 2. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 5 minutes but not more than 5 minutes 30 seconds, and landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 3. 4 consecutive flights; flight 1 must have a duration of at least 3 minutes. The ensuing flights must have durations of at least 5, 7, and 9 minutes. 4. Three consecutive flights with an accumulated time of at least 15 minutes. Each of the three flights must be at least 3 minutes in duration. All three flights must terminate with a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 5. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 8 minutes and a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. Step 4 1. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 6 minutes. 2. 2 flights, each with duration of 5 minutes +/- 25 seconds, and landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 3. 4 consecutive flights; flight 1 must have a duration of at least 4 minutes. The ensuing flights must have durations of at least 6, 8, and 10 minutes. 4. Three consecutive flights with an accumulated time of at least 15 minutes. Each of the three flights must be at least 3 minutes in duration. All three flights must terminate with a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 5. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 10 minutes and a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. Step 5 1. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 7 minutes. 2. 2 flights, each with duration of 5 minutes +/- 20 seconds, and landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 3. 3 consecutive flights; flight 1 must have a duration of at least 5 minutes. The ensuing flights must have durations of at least 10, and 15 minutes. All three flights must terminate with a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 4. Three consecutive flights with an accumulated time of at least 15 minutes. Each of the three flights must be at least 3 minutes in duration. All three flights must terminate with a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 5. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 12 minutes and a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 1. Tasks for a given step can be completed in any order. 2. All tasks for a lower step must be completed before tasks for a higher step can be recognized. 3. All flights must be attested by a second person that is also engaged in the Soaring Achievement Program. 4. All flights must begin with a launch by a hi-start, winch, or hand launch. 5. The sailplane must land on the field for the flight to count. 6. Distances are measured from the tip of the sailplanes nose to the marked spot. The sailplane must not be damaged to the extent that it cannot be flown safely without prior repair and must not be inverted at the end of the landing. 7. Time stops at the instant of the gliders initial contact with the ground. If not, what would you change? Regards, Bob Johnson Fond du Lac, WI -Original Message- From: Jeff Steifel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:53 AM To: dharban; rcse Subject: Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion Ok, I won't point and shoot. But the argument is weak about the pick up or sun roof. Go rent a convertible. Others have done it. The goal and return on a short course doesn't mimick the task. The air could be great on the short course because of the landscape. The long course is truly
[RCSE] LSF Discussion update
For all the late commers of this conversation who keep on pipinging in onwhy change the LSF program...No one wants to change anything !!! OK? The LSF Level 1 - 5 is what it is and always shall be! It's sacred. Your levelV want be belittled.Some people would ust likean additional seperate program/task that is more suitable to there locale/financial/family circumstances. Get it? Nobody wants to changeanything - only add on. Seems like the people that can afford a quiver full of moldies don't want the wood workers to have anything to work for.BTW, what is thewebsite of that Canadian LSF-type program? I want to check into something that I can complete with my wood airplane.After all, there are still people who actually build their ships - like they used to do when the LSF was created More power to the Woodcrafters!Blue skies, Capn Crunchie Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update
If its not about changing the LSF, then the title of the discussions should be New Soaring Program not LSF Discussion. I think that will bring focus to the discussion fia seperate class is what is truly desired. JayOn 9/14/06, CapnCrunchie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For all the late commers of this conversation who keep on pipinging in onwhy change the LSF program...No one wants to change anything !!! OK? The LSF Level 1 - 5 is what it is and always shall be! It's sacred. Your levelV want be belittled. Some people would ust likean additional seperate program/task that is more suitable to there locale/financial/family circumstances. Get it? Nobody wants to changeanything - only add on. Seems like the people that can afford a quiver full of moldies don't want the wood workers to have anything to work for. BTW, what is thewebsite of that Canadian LSF-type program? I want to check into something that I can complete with my wood airplane.After all, there are still people who actually build their ships - like they used to do when the LSF was created More power to the Woodcrafters!Blue skies,Capn CrunchieGet your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update
...Seems like the people that can afford a quiver full of moldies don't want the wood workers to have anything to work for ...I want to check into something that I can complete with my wood airplane==I believe Cal Posthuma has achieved Level V TWICE with a hand-built wood airplane.
[RCSE] LSF Discussion update # CAL P. ##
In a message dated 9/14/2006 4:24:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe Cal Posthuma has achieved Level V TWICE with a hand-built wood airplane He's probably 'one of one' that has done that ... Too many people are forgetting the beginnings of this sport and believe that 'newer is better' ... in some cases, that's correct ... in others, not so !! ... Pepper
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update # CAL P. ##
In a message dated 9/14/2006 5:03:03 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, the first time I used a Windrifter and Sagitta. The second time I used Sapphire and Sailaire. I did use a Walt Good snffler on 10 k and two hour both times. I am working on Level V for a third time and plan on using a new Sailaire, as a runaway winch took my old one, for all but contests were I need a landing plane. Forward to RCSE as it will not take my posts. Thanks for your interest. Cal PosthumaLSF VVPersonal Web Pagehttp://www.altelco.net/~calplsf/index.htmlHome of Solenoid LED's
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update # CAL P. ##
Wrong Pepper, Don Harris has done it three times, and mostly with either wood or bagged ships. He is working on it again, that what happens when you retire. Marc -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sep 14, 2006 3:29 PM To: Soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update # CAL P. ## In a message dated 9/14/2006 4:24:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe Cal Posthuma has achieved Level V TWICE with a hand-built wood airplane He's probably 'one of one' that has done that ... Too many people are forgetting the beginnings of this sport and believe that 'newer is better' ... in some cases, that's correct ... in others, not so !! ... Pepper RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update # CAL P. ##
Hi All: I've already started getting e-mails from folks out there in glider-land ... PLEASE - I did not write anything about Cal or his accomplishments ... Cal sent me his writeup and asked that I forward it to RCSE ... I did ... If any one has any comments, please direct them to Cal ... Thanks, Pepper
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update # CAL P. ##
Cal Posthuma LSF VV I know of no one else who can call himself an LSF X. (I wonder how many there are) Friends, this means something to me. Does it mean anything to you? Lets stop arguing over LSF. Bill Swingle Janesville, CA RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update # CAL P. ##
I think Don Harris may have done it three times... Way to go Don.. And Cal Posthuma twice... Way to go Cal. Now for those who complain the program is too hard, Cal has done it in a wheel chair, with limited mobility. Cal truly is one of the great Soaring Pilots, even without the program his contesting proves it over and over. The fact that he did it twice just reinforces how great a pilot he is and how dedicated he is. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 9/14/2006 4:24:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe Cal Posthuma has achieved Level V TWICE with a hand-built wood airplane He's probably 'one of one' that has done that ... Too many people are forgetting the beginnings of this sport and believe that 'newer is better' ... in some cases, that's correct ... in others, not so !! ... Pepper -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update # CAL P. ##
For both of these Gentlemen, this is an accomplishment!!! Congrats!!! But, what's the encore? Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ - Original Message - From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Soaring@airage.com Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update # CAL P. ## I think Don Harris may have done it three times... Way to go Don.. And Cal Posthuma twice... Way to go Cal. Now for those who complain the program is too hard, Cal has done it in a wheel chair, with limited mobility. Cal truly is one of the great Soaring Pilots, even without the program his contesting proves it over and over. The fact that he did it twice just reinforces how great a pilot he is and how dedicated he is. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 9/14/2006 4:24:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe Cal Posthuma has achieved Level V TWICE with a hand-built wood airplane He's probably 'one of one' that has done that ... Too many people are forgetting the beginnings of this sport and believe that 'newer is better' ... in some cases, that's correct ... in others, not so !! ... Pepper -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update # CAL P. ##
I know I'm chiming in late, but what's with all this discussion? It's very much still a thermalactive flying season. Jack Dubich www.ts3.org - Original Message - From: Darwin N. Barrie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Soaring@airage.com Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update # CAL P. ## For both of these Gentlemen, this is an accomplishment!!! Congrats!!! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion update # CAL P. ##
The LSF page has all the Level V achievers and when they completed then. http://www.silentflight.org/LSF_Base/achievers.htm Bob Champine was the first to do Level V twice. http://hometown.aol.com/GRC6431/myhomepage/ And Don Harris has three. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 9/14/2006 4:24:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe Cal Posthuma has achieved Level V TWICE with a hand-built wood airplane He's probably 'one of one' that has done that ... Too many people are forgetting the beginnings of this sport and believe that 'newer is better' ... in some cases, that's correct ... in others, not so !! ... Pepper RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
Jeff, Would you perceive the following to be a set of tasks that is at least as difficult as LSF Level 1? Step 1 1. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 3 minutes. 2. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 3 minutes but not more than 3 minutes 30 seconds, and a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 3. 5 consecutive flights; flight 1 must have a duration of at least 2 minutes. The ensuing flights must have durations of at least 3, 4, 5, and 6 minutes. 4. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 4 minutes and a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. Step 2 1. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 4 minutes. 2. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 4 minutes but not more than 4 minutes 30 seconds, and landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 3. 5 consecutive flights; flight 1 must have a duration of at least 3 minutes. The ensuing flights must have durations of at least 4, 5, 6, and 7 minutes. 4. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 4 minutes, and landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 5. Three consecutive flights with an accumulated time of at least 15 minutes. Each of the three flights must be at least 3 minutes in duration. Step 3 1. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 5 minutes. 2. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 5 minutes but not more than 5 minutes 30 seconds, and landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 3. 4 consecutive flights; flight 1 must have a duration of at least 3 minutes. The ensuing flights must have durations of at least 5, 7, and 9 minutes. 4. Three consecutive flights with an accumulated time of at least 15 minutes. Each of the three flights must be at least 3 minutes in duration. All three flights must terminate with a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 5. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 8 minutes and a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. Step 4 1. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 6 minutes. 2. 2 flights, each with duration of 5 minutes +/- 25 seconds, and landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 3. 4 consecutive flights; flight 1 must have a duration of at least 4 minutes. The ensuing flights must have durations of at least 6, 8, and 10 minutes. 4. Three consecutive flights with an accumulated time of at least 15 minutes. Each of the three flights must be at least 3 minutes in duration. All three flights must terminate with a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 5. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 10 minutes and a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. Step 5 1. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 7 minutes. 2. 2 flights, each with duration of 5 minutes +/- 20 seconds, and landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 3. 3 consecutive flights; flight 1 must have a duration of at least 5 minutes. The ensuing flights must have durations of at least 10, and 15 minutes. All three flights must terminate with a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 4. Three consecutive flights with an accumulated time of at least 15 minutes. Each of the three flights must be at least 3 minutes in duration. All three flights must terminate with a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 5. 2 flights, each with duration of at least 12 minutes and a landing in a circle of 25-foot radius. 1. Tasks for a given step can be completed in any order. 2. All tasks for a lower step must be completed before tasks for a higher step can be recognized. 3. All flights must be attested by a second person that is also engaged in the Soaring Achievement Program. 4. All flights must begin with a launch by a hi-start, winch, or hand launch. 5. The sailplane must land on the field for the flight to count. 6. Distances are measured from the tip of the sailplanes nose to the marked spot. The sailplane must not be damaged to the extent that it cannot be flown safely without prior repair and must not be inverted at the end of the landing. 7. Time stops at the instant of the gliders initial contact with the ground. If not, what would you change? Regards, Bob Johnson Fond du Lac, WI -Original Message- From: Jeff Steifel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:53 AM To: dharban; rcse Subject: Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion Ok, I won't point and shoot. But the argument is weak about the pick up or sun roof. Go rent a convertible. Others have done it. The goal and return on a short course doesn't mimick the task. The air could be great on the short course because of the landscape. The long course is truly challenging. The density issue means go travel outside your dense area to fly. I used to live 9 miles out of Manhattan, in NJ I had to travel 1.5 hours to go fly.. I don't understand the problem. Go find an area to do goal and return. BTW I find the .5 km course to be small and easy. I could easily position myself in the middle of the course and fly the course easily. Thermalling is easy when you aren't
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
Ryan, is it your intention to have me draft the program? I'm sorry I won't do that. Smarter people than myself came up with the original program. I feel the current program is like the US Constitution. It is very good. It holds up under time. It isn't perfect, but what is? But on the other hand it is perfect What I find interesting is that the arguments today could have been argued years 30 years ago.. The numbers are down. Well go get more people involved. Go bring friends/newcomers to a larger contest. Maybe they will then enjoy it and bring friends/newcomers too.. To do any of the levels you need witnesses. Go enlist friends to come fly and turn them into aspirants. That is what the program is partly about. I can't tell you what would impress me.. because the program already does. Attempts to change it or make a new program are falling short. The program presented by Don dharban and I've been following on the groups falls short. The ideas are very simple, not challenging, not noteworthy. In following the groups I find it also interesting that there are people who say they are willing to do the work to get the program started, but then say the LSF should do this and that. Guys...if you are interested in doing it, get it all prepared think it through, better than you have 3 10 min flights in 1 hour is ridiculous... That isn't hard. In a good air cycle it's easy. My son was bored a couple of weeks ago... He had 3 30 or longer minute flights .. he thought soaring was easy. Then he went to 2 contests and did very poorly at one and reasonably well at the other but did have problems. You see the air he went out in was quite easy.. making him seem like a JW, DP or Tom Kiesling. But he is none of those guys. The contest situation is FLY NOW, find air and make your time... Land for very high points. You minimized it. 3 in one hour. I could think of ways of making it more complicated, but you take out the landing part because in a contest their is a certain amount of pressure... you see you can't give up seconds to get the landing. You have to be right on, on both. In the contest I was at the other day I had to alter my landing pattern for other incoming ships... So for another program to be good it has to be tough... It doesn't have to be the same but 3 10 minute flights in 1 hour...?? Someone wrote me privately the other day to tell me how negative I am... How I can't see a new program being good. Quite the opposite. I am very positive about the OLD program. And if something GOOD comes along I will support that.. It has to be good, anything less will fail. And be certain of this, anything that everyone can do WILL FAIL. Not everyone should be able to do it, otherwise there's no reason to... it's a given. FLAME SHIELD ON. rdwoebke wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To me this is a watered down acheivement program that doesn't challenge anyone Except for the 8 hour slope. I'm not impressed. What would you be impressed with? Ryan -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
In a message dated 9/13/2006 1:39:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would you perceive the following to be a set of tasks that is at least asdifficult as LSF Level 1? Whyinhell do weNEED a replacement for Level I?! - did you mean Level II? If so, the short answer is NO, on the basis of landing requirements, if nothing else. Good Lift!
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
I was thinking the same thing. The first LSF task is perfect. If you spend your time getting to know your plane, then doing LSF I should be a breeze. I also think the first task goes what it should do and that's intice people to participate. If it was an overtly difficult first task, I wouldn't consider attempting the LSF. On 9/13/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 9/13/2006 1:39:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would you perceive the following to be a set of tasks that is at least asdifficult as LSF Level 1? Whyinhell do weNEED a replacement for Level I?! - did you mean Level II? If so, the short answer is NO, on the basis of landing requirements, if nothing else. Good Lift!
[RCSE] LSF Discussion
Guys, I do not get something here. Why do people keep talking about the tasks being difficult. They are all fun and yes maybe challenging but not difficult. Of course the 8 hour slope flight might be considered difficult or at least boring after a while. I consider things like having to listen to a George Bush Speech as difficult, not flying my toy airplanes. Contesting is not difficult, it's heck of a lot fun, of course it is always just a little bit more fun to win. Cross Country is not difficult, it is a blast. It can get a little crazy blasting down a back country dirt road at 70 MPH, but it is not difficult. The whole LSF thing is about the Journey and spending time with your buds and I darn sure do not consider either of those things difficult. For the guys wanting another program of tasks to work on in lieu of the LSF Current plan, I say get together formulate a plan and invite those that are interested to sign up and get a voucher and start out on your journey. For the current LSF guys, if you are happy with the current list of tasks like I am, then continue on your journey and enjoy yourself along the way. There is no need to feel threatened that our program is going away or in any way being lessened. Both programs could easily co-exist, and I am sure there would be many flyers that would attempt to complete both programs. I do not feel it is necessary for the current LSF Program though to be the responsible party to support the new program either financially or with man-power to make it work. It should have to make its way just like LSF did many years ago when it started. Don Harbon has got a start on a new program so those out there that are wanting another option should rally around Don and help make it happen. What's the old saying? Build it and they will come. Give it a try and see what happens. See Ya, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] LSF discussion - some thoughts
OK, I've read nearly all the comments on this topic in both forums and I'm ready to toss my two cents worth in the pot. If I were king, here's what I'd do to get my royal advisors started right after I explained the KISS principle. - Anyone wanting to become an LSF Sportsman MUST successfully complete the current requirements for Level I II(Contest reqm't included). Why? First, these two levels do a lot toward producing a competent sailplane pilot. The competition requirement of Level II isn't that stiff and at least exposes the participant to competition. Second, by making Level II mandatory, a pool of Sportsman pilots becomes available who at least understand what the LSF program is all about and can appropriately serve as witnesses for those in pursuit of higher levels. - After completing Level II, the requirements for further Sportsman Levels should include the current non-competitive tasks in Levels II - V. To keep things simple (a former LSF Secretary speaks here), perhaps repeats of these tasks might be required of the Sportsman. My personal opinion is the XC task of Level III should also be required as it currently stands as it, too, gives the pilot good introductory exposure to XC. - For Sportsman Levels IV V, perhaps a substitute for the XC tasks might be available but, for Sportsman Level V, both the 2 hour thermal and traditional 8 hour slope flight should remain. (Note that for some of the current Level V's - that's the only slope flying they've done.) Also, Sportsman Level V's should keep the 2 Level II witnesses requirement as well as that requirement helps promote the hobby's growth by its if you can't find 'em, grow 'em strategy. Respectfully submitted for your consideration, Jim Deck An afterward - for the LSF Leadership, this discussion couldn't have come at a worse time. The LSF sponsored Masters and the AMA Planning Meeting for the 2007 NATS re on the very near horizon. Remember that they are unpaid volunteers and cut them lots of slack while patiently waiting for their response. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
Damn I did it again. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that this was private. I thought I hit reply instead of reply all, so I added RCSE back. This IS a public apology for going public on something that should have been private. And for everyone out there Please put PRIVATE on the TOP line of your email if you want it to remain that way when responding to RCSE mail. It would make it easier. When mail comes in from [RCSE] sometimes I get used to thinking this is a post from the group, I don't always look at the TO: to see if it was from RCSE as well. But no excuses... Again Sorry Ryan. Ryan Woebkenberg wrote: P.S., thanks for responding to a private email in a public forum that I don't subscribe to. -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
At no point in my post did I suggest or imply that the current LSF Level 1 be replaced; I merely asked if the list of tasks posted was perceived to be as difficult as the current LSF Level 1. I never have nor will I ever suggest or propose the replacement and/or modification of the current LSF Level 1 or any other part of the current LSF program. Regards, Bob Johnson From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 1:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion In a message dated 9/13/2006 1:39:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would you perceive the following to be a set of tasks that is at least as difficult as LSF Level 1? Whyinhell do weNEED a replacement for Level I?! - did you mean Level II? If so, the short answer is NO, on the basis of landing requirements, if nothing else. Good Lift!
[RCSE] LSF Discussion ...was just that.
The thread ran its course to its logical enddisclaimers by posters that they aren't evil, hadn't said anything negative and for the most part are enthusiastic promoter/supporters of all things good and fun. As expected the originator of the thread did not (once a bevy of enlightened ideas were supplied) head to kinko's to make thousands of copies of the 'non contest LSF achievement' sheets in pink...or any there color but specifically not carbon or glass, just wood products if you please. :-) The silent hordes of rc pilots who we waiting to start their first tasks to fame, still lay in the shadows and sink, poised and ready for the forms to arrive. I've decided to look at the bright side of it allif indeed they are out there waiting to get started, let them wait, because if they were to rush the fields of rc soaring America, the 'regular' LSF taskers would have no problem seeing all the lift and sink on fields, having only to look around thru the clouds ofnon-contestsailplanes floating around their fields. The next thread would be about the tremendous increase in mid-airs due to the congestion, the accelerated wear and tear on winches and lines, and whining about club budgets being stressed and the long wait times for turns on the winch line. I'd have signed up just to be the first to reach L-4 duality :-) Oh well, life ain' t Perfect, but there is one plane out there now that's pretty close :-) Hope you all remembered to send Deleware's top contest pilot a sympathy card for his well traveled...on ...Mantis fuse. ;-) Gordy South Amboy, NJ tomorrow, still seeking contests for the weekend!
Re: [RCSE] LSF discussion - some thoughts
Why on earth would anyone be satisfied to be an LSF Sportsman Level V when you could be a 'real' LSF Level V with just a little more dedication and perseverance? I found this segment of the hobby about eight years ago. I joined my local club and I learned that they enjoyed distant contests and was thrilled when I was invited along. I saw the fun had at these events and bought myself an older camping trailer so I could immerse myself in the activities afforded at these gatherings. I signed up with the LSF and began that journey. Being around the 'big boys' forces you to learn all the aspects of soaring that make you a better pilot. When the goal and return tasks became part of the path, an old BMW convertible was purchased. Many of my flying buddies have had the pleasure of strapping into the back seat while I speed down the course. These purchases to allow me to enjoy this hobby cost less than many guys spend on a couple of planes. The discussion at the field today concerned the threads here and at RC Groups. The consensus is that if you want to achieve LSF Level V you'd better be willing to do what it takes. No one wants to get the 'lite' Level V voucher. One analogy was that if you want to be a champion bass fisherman, you'd better have a boat, preferably a fast one. Dan - Original Message - From: Jim Deck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: RCSE soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 1:06 PM Subject: [RCSE] LSF discussion - some thoughts OK, I've read nearly all the comments on this topic in both forums and I'm ready to toss my two cents worth in the pot. If I were king, here's what I'd do to get my royal advisors started right after I explained the KISS principle. - Anyone wanting to become an LSF Sportsman MUST successfully complete the current requirements for Level I II(Contest reqm't included). Why? First, these two levels do a lot toward producing a competent sailplane pilot. The competition requirement of Level II isn't that stiff and at least exposes the participant to competition. Second, by making Level II mandatory, a pool of Sportsman pilots becomes available who at least understand what the LSF program is all about and can appropriately serve as witnesses for those in pursuit of higher levels. - After completing Level II, the requirements for further Sportsman Levels should include the current non-competitive tasks in Levels II - V. To keep things simple (a former LSF Secretary speaks here), perhaps repeats of these tasks might be required of the Sportsman. My personal opinion is the XC task of Level III should also be required as it currently stands as it, too, gives the pilot good introductory exposure to XC. - For Sportsman Levels IV V, perhaps a substitute for the XC tasks might be available but, for Sportsman Level V, both the 2 hour thermal and traditional 8 hour slope flight should remain. (Note that for some of the current Level V's - that's the only slope flying they've done.) Also, Sportsman Level V's should keep the 2 Level II witnesses requirement as well as that requirement helps promote the hobby's growth by its if you can't find 'em, grow 'em strategy. Respectfully submitted for your consideration, Jim Deck An afterward - for the LSF Leadership, this discussion couldn't have come at a worse time. The LSF sponsored Masters and the AMA Planning Meeting for the 2007 NATS re on the very near horizon. Remember that they are unpaid volunteers and cut them lots of slack while patiently waiting for their response. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] LSF Discussion
I have been following this discussion with interest and some good ideas have been advanced, however I have seen no discussion of the two most important items. Who will do the work and how will it be financed. I have been a member of LSF since 1972 and joined the old East Coast Soaring Society about the same time. I have observed the troubles encountered by both organizations. Perhaps a little history will help some of the younger generation understand my concerns. LSF was founded in 1969 by a lCalifornia group after an earlier attempt had failed. It was a volunteer group that had no dues or funding source other than a request for postage stamps and entry fees from an LSF tournament. LSF rapidly expanded to a world wide organization that soon led to burnout of the founding group. In 1973, control of the LSF was passed to Dan Pruss and others around Chicago IL. Things struggled along until Dans death in 1986 and the LSF also almost died shortly after. Bob Steel rescued the records and, with Mike Stump, Cal Posthuma and a few other dedicated Midwest LSF members, revived the LSF. They also revived the LSF tournament in 1992 to finance the LSF. The last LSF tournament was held at Muncie in 1994. Mike Stump worked out an agreement with AMA to run the Soaring events at the AMA Nats starting in 1995 and share income from the entry fees. LSF finally had finally solved the funding problem. Prior to 1976, soaring was not an official AMA event. In 1973, AMA established a Soaring Advisory Committee to establish soaring as an official event. The Soaring Advisory Committee recognized the National Soaring Society (formally East Coast Soaring Society) as the soaring special interest group in 1974 and turned over most of its functions to that group. NSS soon ran into the same problems as LSF: Worker burnout and finances. Finally, in 1995, NSS could not run the soaring events at the Nats so that lead to Mike Stumps agreement with AMA for LSF to run the soaring events at the Nats and share the revenue. I ask my question again. How do they propose to run and finance the program, or do they expect to parasite off LSF? Chuck Andeson LSF 586 Level IV ECSS/NSS 72-361 AMA Soaring Advisory Committee 1983-1985 NSS District V VP 1985-1987 NSS Treasurer 1988 1989 presentno office and never again. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF discussion - some thoughts
I may be wrong (probably am), but perhaps some of the unease in the world could be mitigated by one little change in the LSF rules, without changing any tasks at all. The rules say: requirements for the subsequent Levels may be achieved any time after the previous Level form has been postmarked... So you can't get credit for Level III, IV or V tasks until everything in Level II is done and sent off, etc. Now just maybe if you relaxed this requirement, it might make some of the LSF dissidents happier. If a guy wanted to fly only thermal, for example, he could fly all his thermal tasks right up to the two-hour, and he could say, Well, I have done the thermal requirements for Level V. Then maybe he'd be motivated to do some of the slope tasks, or the XC, or the contests or whatever. The LSF could even give out separate little stickers for thermal, slope, XC, and contests. This changes things very little, yet it addresses quite a few of the specific issues that have been raised on this thread. Now I've made my one and only comment, and I will now shut up. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] LSF Discussion
Wow, no end in sight here. The SSA (Soaring Society of America) Achievement Program for full size soaring has stood the test of time (60+ years I believe). Why not the LSF Program? For those Level IIs or IIIs needing contest points one week at the Nats will give you all the points you need plus the opportunity to learn from the best. No matter what compromise someone comes up with it wont stand the test of time. The reason is for those that want to be the best and be measured by their true skills they will put in the time and effort to become Level V or IV or whatever. For those that finish the watered down version they can never state that they became Level V. People all over will then be saying that Level V in this program is only as good as Level III in the LSF program or whatever. Its pretty amusing to me that those that want the new program arent willing to do this task or that. I think Skip Miller is Level IV.9 because he refuses to go do the 8-hour flight. I dont think anyone can argue Skips credentials he just wont be Level V. Daryl Perkins, Level I. Joe Wurts, Level ? Their choice. Anyone care to argue their skill level? In the end there are lots of ways to be measured but to be in that Elite group you had to walk where those who have succeeded before you walked. Jim McCarthy Not as good as many, but proud top be Level V
Fwd: [RCSE] LSF discussion - some thoughts
Sorry, I only sent this to Tony and it should have gone to all.-- Forwarded message --From: Jack Iafret [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Sep 13, 2006 8:07 PMSubject: Re: [RCSE] LSF discussion - some thoughtsTo: tony estep [EMAIL PROTECTED]OK, my one comment. Read my post of the History of LSF earlier in response to Chuck Anderson's post. I have been there and know what if means to be a an LSF person- are you? ( I am only an L IV and may never do the 8 hour slope to get LV because I don't care. That is the point- individual achievement). LSF is kind of like a goal in the sky, only the strong will succeed. If it is watered down, what is the point.The whole point in the LSF is to be under LSF 200 at this point in time (LSF 100 is done). What else could you ask for, to be one of the the best 200 in the world (LSF is a world organization). You can only exceed the LSF goals if you present a program that is more difficult in the world of new technology, not worse.If we were all equal, who would be the leaders?IMHO,Jack Iafret On 9/13/06, tony estep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I may be wrong (probably am), but perhaps some of the unease in the world could be mitigated by one little change in the LSF rules, without changing any tasks at all.The rules say: requirements for the subsequent Levels may be achieved any time after the previous Level form has been postmarked... So you can't get credit for Level III, IV or V tasks until everything in Level II is done and sent off, etc.Now just maybe if you relaxed this requirement, it might make some of the LSF dissidents happier. If a guy wanted to fly only thermal, for example, he could fly all his thermal tasks right up to the two-hour, and he could say, Well, I have done the thermal requirements for Level V. Then maybe he'd be motivated to do some of the slope tasks, or the XC, or the contests or whatever. The LSF could even give out separate little stickers for thermal, slope, XC, and contests.This changes things very little, yet it addresses quite a few of the specific issues that have been raised on this thread. Now I've made my one and only comment, and I will now shut up.RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED].Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jack IafretHome and Hobbies -- Jack IafretHome and Hobbies
RE: [RCSE] LSF Discussion ...was just that.
Gordys babbling again; the poor lost soul must be stuck in some godforsaken flea-bag motel room munching on stale pizza and washing it down with warm beer. The life of a traveling salesman aint all glamour, hey Gordy. J Regards, Bob Johnson From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 4:56 PM To: Soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] LSF Discussion ...was just that. The thread ran its course to its logical enddisclaimers by posters that they aren't evil, hadn't said anything negative and for the most part are enthusiastic promoter/supporters of all things good and fun. As expected the originator of the thread did not (once a bevy of enlightened ideas were supplied) head to kinko's to make thousands of copies of the 'non contest LSF achievement' sheets in pink...or any there color but specifically not carbon or glass, just wood products if you please. :-) The silent hordes of rc pilots who we waiting to start their first tasks to fame, still lay in the shadows and sink, poised and ready for the forms to arrive. I've decided to look at the bright side of it allif indeed they are out there waiting to get started, let them wait, because if they were to rush the fields of rc soaring America, the 'regular' LSF taskers would have no problem seeing all the lift and sink on fields, having only to look around thru the clouds ofnon-contestsailplanes floating around their fields. The next thread would be about the tremendous increase in mid-airs due to the congestion, the accelerated wear and tear on winches and lines, and whining about club budgets being stressed and the long wait times for turns on the winch line. I'd have signed up just to be the first to reach L-4 duality :-) Oh well, life ain' t Perfect, but there is one plane out there now that's pretty close :-) Hope you all remembered to send Deleware's top contest pilot a sympathy card for his well traveled...on ...Mantis fuse. ;-) Gordy South Amboy, NJ tomorrow, still seeking contests for the weekend!
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ryan, is it your intention to have me draft the program? No, I just thought you might throw out a few ideas of tasks that you think could be worthy. Other folks have done the same (like Don Stackhouse's suggestion of a dawn till dusk thermal flight). I suggested perhaps the top level of the sportsman program should have some kind of voted in aspect (in addition to things like 10K, 2 hour thermal, etc.). So a guy like Dr. Drela that publishes many designs for free would of course get the nod. Same for folks that served as past Nats events directors or officers in the LSF. I feel I made other positive suggestions as well. Dude, no need to get hot on me. I'm a fan of your work and of your enthusiasm to F3B. I'm a fan of the existing levels program too (I'm working on level 4). I love contests too and know first hand they can really put a person in his place. But I support the idea and effort that there could be a sportsman program. I'd probably participate. Ryan P.S., thanks for responding to a private email in a public forum that I don't subscribe to. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
Jeff, You aren't the only one who gets this mixed up. The easiest way is to remove the [RCSE] from any private emails. Lot easier to distinguish. I can't tell it's private most of the time when it has the exchange title on it. Tom - Original Message - From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ryan Woebkenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion Damn I did it again. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that this was private. I thought I hit reply instead of reply all, so I added RCSE back. This IS a public apology for going public on something that should have been private. And for everyone out there Please put PRIVATE on the TOP line of your email if you want it to remain that way when responding to RCSE mail. It would make it easier. When mail comes in from [RCSE] sometimes I get used to thinking this is a post from the group, I don't always look at the TO: to see if it was from RCSE as well. But no excuses... Again Sorry Ryan. Ryan Woebkenberg wrote: P.S., thanks for responding to a private email in a public forum that I don't subscribe to. -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 9/12/2006 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion ...was just that.
The ICON? ;-) At 04:55 PM 9/13/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh well, life ain' t Perfect, but there is one plane out there now that's pretty close :-) Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion Credo
Of course that was the point of the movie, it was all about the journey... just like the current LSF program. At 04:39 PM 9/13/2006, Tom Broeski wrote: I watched a neat movie on the World's fastest Indian (Burt Munro a NZ motorcyclist who had to travel to Bonneville to have a place to set the record). If that's what it takes, there are some who will do it. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion Credo
I'm in support of ANYTHING that furthers or promotes the sport. I will still finish my LSF in the old way, new way, anyway - doesn't matter. I will participate in any new task format LSF or not. I will not discourage anyone from trying new ideas. I will not attack them for trying to present new ideas. All the tasks help make one a better pilot (maybe the 8 hr slope also teaches bladder control). I do wish I had someone down here to fly with and share it all with, but that just isn't how it is right now. Looking forward to something new, new options, new formats, tasks, whatever. Would like something that would let me do it here with just regular people as witnesses, like the Canadian Soaring Tasks. Heck, Doug Barry is trying to do his second LSF V thing only flying an AVA. Already did a 10K XC with it. Contests will be a lot tougher, since there just aren't the numbers anymore, but I bet he doesn't give up. I watched a neat movie on the World's fastest Indian (Burt Munro a NZ motorcyclist who had to travel to Bonneville to have a place to set the record). If that's what it takes, there are some who will do it. T - Original Message - From: Bob Johnson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; 'rcse' Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 4:52 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] LSF Discussion At no point in my post did I suggest or imply that the current LSF Level 1 be replaced; I merely asked if the list of tasks posted was perceived to be as difficult as the current LSF Level 1. I never have nor will I ever suggest or propose the replacement and/or modification of the current LSF Level 1 or any other part of the current LSF program. Regards, Bob Johnson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion Credo
I'm in support of ANYTHING that furthers or promotes the sport. I will still finish my LSF in the old way, new way, anyway - doesn't matter. I will participate in any new task format LSF or not. I will not discourage anyone from trying new ideas. I will not attack them for trying to present new ideas. All the tasks help make one a better pilot (maybe the 8 hr slope also teaches bladder control). I do wish I had someone down here to fly with and share it all with, but that just isn't how it is right now. Looking forward to something new, new options, new formats, tasks, whatever. Would like something that would let me do it here with just regular people as witnesses, like the Canadian Soaring Tasks. Heck, Doug Barry is trying to do his second LSF V thing only flying an AVA. Already did an XC with it. Contests will be a lot tougher, since there just aren't the numbers anymore, but I bet he doesn't give up. I watched a neat movie on the World's fastest Indian (Burt Munro a NZ motorcyclist who had to travel to Bonneville to have a place to set the record). If that's what it takes, there are some who will do it. But there's still room for the soapbox derby. T - Original Message - - Original Message - From: dharban [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:15 AM Subject: [RCSE] Re: LSF Discussion Not to mention that it's entirely likely that some legs might be flown in a straight line at speeds in excess of 20-25 mph. When I was young I was quick, but I never broke a one minute quarter mile+. Even on a cool day a person might break a sweat chasing down a sailplane in this task :) -- dharban dharban's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=31927 View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=567627 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 9/12/2006 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] LSF Discussion
I don't know whether the people on this RCSE thread are reading the corresponding thread or not so I am reposting a message I have on that thread in this forum. Before everyone loads up to shoot, please understand that these thoughts are offered not as definitive but more as illustrative of what might be done with regard to an alternative path. The posting includes a paper discussing evaluating achievement award tasks based on skill requirements and an illustrative proposal as to one way an alternative program might be structured: A proposal regarding tasks and skills. This is partly a rehash of a previous communication -- revised to illustrate one way a Sportsman track Achievement Award program could be structured. The objectives in this proposal are: 1. Mitigate the problems participants would have with regard to the logistics and/or other difficulties required to complete the existing LSF Competition Tasks. 2. Mitigate the problems participants have with respect to Goal and Return tasks -- specifically the unsuitablility of this event for people who live in densely populated areas, areas where it is unsafe and/or illegal to fulfill the requirements of the task (most places it is illegal to ride in the bed of a moving pickup truck and illegal for passengers to not use their seatbelts -- thereby making operation of a transmitter through an open sunroof problematic.) 3. To encourage some level of participation in group activities which advance the sport. 4. To be mostly achievable with typical club at a typical club site. 5. To devise an alternative program where the challenge at any level is comparable (+/_ to its existing LSF equivalent. 6. To complement and augment the existing LSF program. Level I -- Exactly identical to current Level I tasks Level II -- Exactly identical to current Level II tasks (I realize this has a competition element, but it is easily achieveable at most club sites and is consistent with objective 3 above. Level III -- Identical with current Level III Thermal Duration and Slope tasks. Goal and Return is modified to allow distance to be flown in laps not less than 0.5 KM per full lap (Minimum turning distance are approx. 792 feet.) Competition Requirements Can be fulfilled either in accordance with current Level III Competition requirements as written or by completing any combination of the following competition event equivalents which totals six competition equivalent events. (A) Placing in a competition event which has 10 or more entrants. (B) Completing a competition equivalent event which consists of three rounds of 10 minute AMA Task T2 (Precision Duration) using an AMA L4 Spot landing with a total score greater than or equal to 2000 points*. All three rounds must be completed within 1 hour. Level IV -- Identical with current Level IV Thermal Duration and Slope tasks. Goal and Return is modified to allow distance to be flown in laps not less than 0.5 KM per full lap (Minimum turning distance are approx. 792 feet.) Competition Requirements Can be fulfilled either in accordance with current Level IV Competition requirements as written or by completing any combination of the following competition event equivalents which totals six competition equivalent events. (A) Placing in a competition event which has 15 or more entrants. (B) Completing a competition equivalent event which consists of three rounds of 10 minute AMA Task T2 (Precision Duration) using an AMA L4 Spot landing with a total score greater than or equal to 2000* points. All three rounds must be completed within 1 hour. Level V -- Identical with current Level V Thermal Duration and Slope tasks. (I realize that this includes an onerous Slope task which cannot be substituted with another Thermal task. At this level of accomplishment, this is the one compromise in this proposal to the concept of solving the logistics problem (perhaps an exception could be granted for aspirants who do not live within 500 miles or some other such distance from a reasonable slope.) Goal and Return is modified to allow distance to be flown in laps not less than 0.5 KM per full lap (Minimum turning distance are approx. 792 feet.) Competition Requirements Can be fulfilled either in accordance with current Level V Competition requirements as written or by completing any combination of the following competition event equivalents which totals six competition equivalent events. (A) Placing in a competition event which has 20 or more entrants. (B) Completing a competition equivalent event which consists of three rounds of 10 minute AMA Task T2 (Precision Duration) using an AMA L4 Spot landing with a total score greater than or equal to 2350 points. All three rounds must be completed within 1 hour. For Level V only,in addition to (or as a part of) completing the combination of the 6 competition and/or competition equivalent events the aspirant would be required to participate in at least three competition events with more
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
In Boy Scouts you have to earn various merit badges to advance to the different levels of achievement. How ever in each of the merit badge books you have a list of requirements you must completed to earn that merit badge. Usually about 7 or 8 steps. 3 or 4 of the steps are required but their are several other steps that give the boy a choice in which steps he would like to choose to finish the rest of the requirement. How about keeping the original current requirements for LSF I-V. Creat one or two optional requirements that would be just as time consuming, hard, and challanging as the current standars. Thus giving the choice to the participant while not diminishing the standards that those who have already completed the levels have attained. Personally I would vote for the levels just as they are, but this might help draw more into the sport. Or maybe not. No sport or organization I have ever been in has not had its percentage of participants that want to change the calculations, rules or whatever. Chad Paul Emerson wrote: replacing competition requirement with non-competition tasks that provide a comparable level of challenge and skill development To re-create a comparable level to a competition there would have to be a task that required you to launch on a specific day, at a specific time, regardless of conditions, with an unexpected field repair, and a gaggle of bozos to sucker you into some bad air, and a timer who may or may not read the air correctly and give you bad advice, who will talk too much and countdown all wrong, and stop the timer a full second late, and at least a dozen peers to watch you launch and land, wishing the best for you, but most hoping to beat you, and some playing mind games and/or talking trash to you, and then there is the added lust for an I beat Gordy pin, not to mention wanting to score higher than all of your other club buddies, all this after having spent the night in the back of your truck after driving 600 miles and slowstick nightflying until 3 AM and you are getting a weird rash from being out in the heat for three days . . . ;-) Paul LSF I RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
What is the point of entering a contest if you do not want or try to win. The fun develops from that desire and ambition. If we end up losing and can only have fun if we won, then we do not know the true meaning of competition. Chad I think that's what is wrong with so many current contests with the emphasis on win, win, win and not enough emphasis on fun. Why not back off a little and put some fun back. Fly events that don't require a moldie. Maybe a round of three-for-fifteen and a few rounds of two minute precision. That's how I learned to land on the spot on time over 30 years ago and it can be done with an Oly II or Gentle Lady. And be sure to have a Novice class with best trophies for them. I have been flying contests on one type or another since 1950 and I don't really care for another trophy unless it is for a really important contest. For the rest, just announce my name if I place. Of course I don't have to worry about that very often any more. :-) Chuck Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
Well put Jim, my sentiments exactly. At 11:13 PM 9/7/2006, Jim Porter wrote: Pat McCleave wrote: Once again you are missing the point, it is not so much about changing the current system as it is about adding a separate system to the fold for those pilots who do not choose or do not have the means to travel to the big contests in order to complete the list of tasks. Unfortunately ALL of this still misses the original intent of the contest requirement. The contest requirement was designed to bring flyers together to compare skills, to promote the transfer of skills and information and to INCREASE PARTICIPATION. If you have a core group of pilots, as few as two, who have even a minimal level of success, they can pass this success on to others. It's a synergistic thing that can rapidly grow to the point where it's possible to have regular LOCAL contests with at least ten guys on most any weekend. These DO NOT have to be a blood and guts type of contest, merely an opportunity to fly together, thereby learning from each other and improving the overall skill level. When the other local flyers see how much fun is being had they will join in, even if they KNOW they have not a whisper of a chance to win. They are there because it's FUN. And, this does not require a $2,000 moldie and a $600+ computer radio - it can be done with a 'lowly' Gentle Lady, Spirit, Aspire or HOB 2 x 4. The REAL problem with all of this is that it takes a little effort by each individual to promote soaring, taking time away from each individuals flying time. Realizing that many are not willling to put forth this effort is one of many reasons we are suffering the lack of participation in soaring. Perception plays a very big role in things. We really need to keep that in mind. Consider the answers to the following two questions. Why do you want to work through the levels of the LSF? What do you/we gain if there is a separate advancement scheme? regards, Jim Porter Johnston Iowa USA The airplane stays up because it doesn't have the time to fall. Orville Wright RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
Steve, No one is attempting to or suggesting that the current rules be changed so that the apogee can become more heavily populated. What has been proposed is that there is a need for a new mountain. At the present time that mountain is not in existence; if/when it is finally constructed, it should be as difficult to reach the apogee as it is for the current mountain. If a new mountain will attract new blood to the hobby/sport, why not build it? Regards, Bob Johnson Fond du Lac, WI -Original Message- From: S Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:54 PM To: S Meyer Cc: RCSE Subject: Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion Here is my comment on this subject. Not everybody can be a Level V, otherwise there would be no reason to attain it. No reason to change rules so more can reach the apogee. Next they will want a handicap system for world competition. The few the proud... I aspire to be a level V. Steven Meyer LSF IV 1/2 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
I started traveling to Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky to attend contests. First it was because that was where the HL contests were at. Now mainly TD contests. It was not just for the LSF points, I met some great guys along the way, learned a lot from all the different people, and had a lot of fun as well. I could move closer to theses areas but I choose to live where I am. The current LSF system is designed for the pilot who wants interact with other pilots, teach and learn at the same time. As far as getting a Level V win from a SOAR club contest. Fat chance, I have resided that I will have to attend smaller contests in far places. Away from guys like, Rich Burnoski, Karl Miller, Jim McCarthy, Tom Kallevang, Jim Bacus, and more. And now the upcoming novice of the group Pat Crosby, watch out he's a good stick. So be careful what you wish for. To attain Level 5 requires dedication, commitment, and yes, money. There is no hobby out there if you want to be good you have to spend money. From Gardening to Cycling, they all have an expensive side to them. And they all take what few of us have... time. Steve Meyer LSF IV At 08:02 AM 9/7/2006, Pat McCleave wrote: Steven, Once again you are missing the point, it is not so much about changing the current system as it is about adding a separate system to the fold for those pilots who do not choose or do not have the means to travel to the big contests in order to complete the list of tasks. Funny thing is, almost all of those that are so apposed to any change just happen to be fortunate enough to be involved with clubs that have regular monthly contests 20 or more pilots. Maybe if the shoe were on the other foot and you guys had to travel hundreds of miles and spend hundreds of dollars everytime you wanted to attend a contest with 20 or more people, you might see it another way. If I were a new guy just starting out and did not already know several of the people on here, I would get the feeling that most of you guys were a pretty elitist group and could care less about new pilots joining the group. I know this is not the case, because like I said, I know most of you know differently but a new guy just signing up on the list would not know that. Perception plays a very big role in things. We really need to keep that in mind. See Ya, Pat RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
Pat McCleave wrote: Once again you are missing the point, it is not so much about changing the current system as it is about adding a separate system to the fold for those pilots who do not choose or do not have the means to travel to the big contests in order to complete the list of tasks. Unfortunately ALL of this still misses the original intent of the contest requirement. The contest requirement was designed to bring flyers together to compare skills, to promote the transfer of skills and information and to INCREASE PARTICIPATION. If you have a core group of pilots, as few as two, who have even a minimal level of success, they can pass this success on to others. It's a synergistic thing that can rapidly grow to the point where it's possible to have regular LOCAL contests with at least ten guys on most any weekend. These DO NOT have to be a blood and guts type of contest, merely an opportunity to fly together, thereby learning from each other and improving the overall skill level. When the other local flyers see how much fun is being had they will join in, even if they KNOW they have not a whisper of a chance to win. They are there because it's FUN. And, this does not require a $2,000 moldie and a $600+ computer radio - it can be done with a 'lowly' Gentle Lady, Spirit, Aspire or HOB 2 x 4. The REAL problem with all of this is that it takes a little effort by each individual to promote soaring, taking time away from each individuals flying time. Realizing that many are not willling to put forth this effort is one of many reasons we are suffering the lack of participation in soaring. Perception plays a very big role in things. We really need to keep that in mind. Consider the answers to the following two questions. Why do you want to work through the levels of the LSF? What do you/we gain if there is a separate advancement scheme? regards, Jim Porter Johnston Iowa USA The airplane stays up because it doesn't have the time to fall. Orville Wright RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
At 11:13 PM 9/7/2006, you wrote: snip These DO NOT have to be a blood and guts type of contest, merely an opportunity to fly together, thereby learning from each other and improving the overall skill level. When the other local flyers see how much fun is being had they will join in, even if they KNOW they have not a whisper of a chance to win. They are there because it's FUN. And, this does not require a $2,000 moldie and a $600+ computer radio - it can be done with a 'lowly' Gentle Lady, Spirit, Aspire or HOB 2 x 4. I think that's what is wrong with so many current contests with the emphasis on win, win, win and not enough emphasis on fun. Why not back off a little and put some fun back. Fly events that don't require a moldie. Maybe a round of three-for-fifteen and a few rounds of two minute precision. That's how I learned to land on the spot on time over 30 years ago and it can be done with an Oly II or Gentle Lady. And be sure to have a Novice class with best trophies for them. I have been flying contests on one type or another since 1950 and I don't really care for another trophy unless it is for a really important contest. For the rest, just announce my name if I place. Of course I don't have to worry about that very often any more. :-) Chuck Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
Steve makes some really good points here. We were already traveling on weekends 100's of miles just to go fly with others, the LSF tasks didn't start us off on that. We didn't get our contest task points at home because we have a big club, we had to go on the road for those points because the pilots within our club are so strong and there are a layer of guys on top that are very difficult to beat. All hobbies can be expensive, but perhaps the largest expense in this day and age is the time to spend with them. Well written Steve. At 09:12 AM 9/7/2006, S Meyer wrote: I started traveling to Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky to attend contests. First it was because that was where the HL contests were at. Now mainly TD contests. It was not just for the LSF points, I met some great guys along the way, learned a lot from all the different people, and had a lot of fun as well. I could move closer to theses areas but I choose to live where I am. The current LSF system is designed for the pilot who wants interact with other pilots, teach and learn at the same time. As far as getting a Level V win from a SOAR club contest. Fat chance, I have resided that I will have to attend smaller contests in far places. Away from guys like, Rich Burnoski, Karl Miller, Jim McCarthy, Tom Kallevang, Jim Bacus, and more. And now the upcoming novice of the group Pat Crosby, watch out he's a good stick. So be careful what you wish for. To attain Level 5 requires dedication, commitment, and yes, money. There is no hobby out there if you want to be good you have to spend money. From Gardening to Cycling, they all have an expensive side to them. And they all take what few of us have... time. Steve Meyer LSF IV At 08:02 AM 9/7/2006, Pat McCleave wrote: Steven, Once again you are missing the point, it is not so much about changing the current system as it is about adding a separate system to the fold for those pilots who do not choose or do not have the means to travel to the big contests in order to complete the list of tasks. Funny thing is, almost all of those that are so apposed to any change just happen to be fortunate enough to be involved with clubs that have regular monthly contests 20 or more pilots. Maybe if the shoe were on the other foot and you guys had to travel hundreds of miles and spend hundreds of dollars everytime you wanted to attend a contest with 20 or more people, you might see it another way. If I were a new guy just starting out and did not already know several of the people on here, I would get the feeling that most of you guys were a pretty elitist group and could care less about new pilots joining the group. I know this is not the case, because like I said, I know most of you know differently but a new guy just signing up on the list would not know that. Perception plays a very big role in things. We really need to keep that in mind. See Ya, Pat RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
It just occurred to me that a good explanation of why some want a New achievement program may be the same reason that involvement by new blood is diminishing. Nobody has any time to enjoy themselves. The 40 hour work week is gone and if you get more than 2 weeks vacation consider yourself lucky. Perhaps an achievement program that rewards point for posting to RCSE. :-) Oh yea, I'm at work. This message paid for by my employer. :-) Steve Soaring Exchange Level V LSF Level IV At 10:35 AM 9/7/2006, James V. Bacus wrote: Steve makes some really good points here. We were already traveling on weekends 100's of miles just to go fly with others, the LSF tasks didn't start us off on that. We didn't get our contest task points at home because we have a big club, we had to go on the road for those points because the pilots within our club are so strong and there are a layer of guys on top that are very difficult to beat. All hobbies can be expensive, but perhaps the largest expense in this day and age is the time to spend with them. Well written Steve. At 09:12 AM 9/7/2006, S Meyer wrote: I started traveling to Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky to attend contests. First it was because that was where the HL contests were at. Now mainly TD contests. It was not just for the LSF points, I met some great guys along the way, learned a lot from all the different people, and had a lot of fun as well. I could move closer to theses areas but I choose to live where I am. The current LSF system is designed for the pilot who wants interact with other pilots, teach and learn at the same time. As far as getting a Level V win from a SOAR club contest. Fat chance, I have resided that I will have to attend smaller contests in far places. Away from guys like, Rich Burnoski, Karl Miller, Jim McCarthy, Tom Kallevang, Jim Bacus, and more. And now the upcoming novice of the group Pat Crosby, watch out he's a good stick. So be careful what you wish for. To attain Level 5 requires dedication, commitment, and yes, money. There is no hobby out there if you want to be good you have to spend money. From Gardening to Cycling, they all have an expensive side to them. And they all take what few of us have... time. Steve Meyer LSF IV At 08:02 AM 9/7/2006, Pat McCleave wrote: Steven, Once again you are missing the point, it is not so much about changing the current system as it is about adding a separate system to the fold for those pilots who do not choose or do not have the means to travel to the big contests in order to complete the list of tasks. Funny thing is, almost all of those that are so apposed to any change just happen to be fortunate enough to be involved with clubs that have regular monthly contests 20 or more pilots. Maybe if the shoe were on the other foot and you guys had to travel hundreds of miles and spend hundreds of dollars everytime you wanted to attend a contest with 20 or more people, you might see it another way. If I were a new guy just starting out and did not already know several of the people on here, I would get the feeling that most of you guys were a pretty elitist group and could care less about new pilots joining the group. I know this is not the case, because like I said, I know most of you know differently but a new guy just signing up on the list would not know that. Perception plays a very big role in things. We really need to keep that in mind. See Ya, Pat RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
Steve, If we had that kind of achievement program we would have to have Level X for Gordy. See Ya, Pat S Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It just occurred to me that a good explanation of why some want a New achievement program may be the same reason that involvement by new blood is diminishing. Nobody has any time to enjoy themselves. The 40 hour work week is gone and if you get more than 2 weeks vacation consider yourself lucky. Perhaps an achievement program that rewards point for posting to RCSE. :-) Oh yea, I'm at work. This message paid for by my employer. :-) Steve Soaring Exchange Level V LSF Level IV At 10:35 AM 9/7/2006, James V. Bacus wrote: Steve makes some really good points here. We were already traveling on weekends 100's of miles just to go fly with others, the LSF tasks didn't start us off on that. We didn't get our contest task points at home because we have a big club, we had to go on the road for those points because the pilots within our club are so strong and there are a layer of guys on top that are very difficult to beat. All hobbies can be expensive, but perhaps the largest expense in this day and age is the time to spend with them. Well written Steve. At 09:12 AM 9/7/2006, S Meyer wrote: I started traveling to Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky to attend contests. First it was because that was where the HL contests were at. Now mainly TD contests. It was not just for the LSF points, I met some great guys along the way, learned a lot from all the different people, and had a lot of fun as well. I could move closer to theses areas but I choose to live where I am. The current LSF system is designed for the pilot who wants interact with other pilots, teach and learn at the same time. As far as getting a Level V win from a SOAR club contest. Fat chance, I have resided that I will have to attend smaller contests in far places. Away from guys like, Rich Burnoski, Karl Miller, Jim McCarthy, Tom Kallevang, Jim Bacus, and more. And now the upcoming novice of the group Pat Crosby, watch out he's a good stick. So be careful what you wish for. To attain Level 5 requires dedication, commitment, and yes, money. There is no hobby out there if you want to be good you have to spend money. From Gardening to Cycling, they all have an expensive side to them. And they all take what few of us have... time. Steve Meyer LSF IV At 08:02 AM 9/7/2006, Pat McCleave wrote: Steven, Once again you are missing the point, it is not so much about changing the current system as it is about adding a separate system to the fold for those pilots who do not choose or do not have the means to travel to the big contests in order to complete the list of tasks. Funny thing is, almost all of those that are so apposed to any change just happen to be fortunate enough to be involved with clubs that have regular monthly contests 20 or more pilots. Maybe if the shoe were on the other foot and you guys had to travel hundreds of miles and spend hundreds of dollars everytime you wanted to attend a contest with 20 or more people, you might see it another way. If I were a new guy just starting out and did not already know several of the people on here, I would get the feeling that most of you guys were a pretty elitist group and could care less about new pilots joining the group. I know this is not the case, because like I said, I know most of you know differently but a new guy just signing up on the list would not know that. Perception plays a very big role in things. We really need to keep that in mind. See Ya, Pat RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
replacing competition requirement with non-competition tasks that provide a comparable level of challenge and skill development To re-create a comparable level to a competition there would have to be a task that required you to launch on a specific day, at a specific time, regardless of conditions, with an unexpected field repair, and a gaggle of bozos to sucker you into some bad air, and a timer who may or may not read the air correctly and give you bad advice, who will talk too much and countdown all wrong, and stop the timer a full second late, and at least a dozen peers to watch you launch and land, wishing the best for you, but most hoping to beat you, and some playing mind games and/or talking trash to you, and then there is the added lust for an I beat Gordy pin, not to mention wanting to score higher than all of your other club buddies, all this after having spent the night in the back of your truck after driving 600 miles and slowstick nightflying until 3 AM and you are getting a weird rash from being out in the heat for three days . . . ;-) Paul LSF I On 9/7/06, Pat McCleave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve, If we had that kind of achievement program we would have to have Level X for Gordy. See Ya, Pat S Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It just occurred to me that a good explanation of why some want a New achievement program may be the same reason that involvement by new blood is diminishing. Nobody has any time to enjoy themselves. The 40 hour work week is gone and if you get more than 2 weeks vacation consider yourself lucky. Perhaps an achievement program that rewards point for posting to RCSE. :-) Oh yea, I'm at work. This message paid for by my employer. :-) Steve Soaring Exchange Level V LSF Level IV At 10:35 AM 9/7/2006, James V. Bacus wrote: Steve makes some really good points here. We were already traveling on weekends 100's of miles just to go fly with others, the LSF tasks didn't start us off on that. We didn't get our contest task points at home because we have a big club, we had to go on the road for those points because the pilots within our club are so strong and there are a layer of guys on top that are very difficult to beat. All hobbies can be expensive, but perhaps the largest expense in this day and age is the time to spend with them. Well written Steve. At 09:12 AM 9/7/2006, S Meyer wrote: I started traveling to Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky to attend contests. First it was because that was where the HL contests were at. Now mainly TD contests. It was not just for the LSF points, I met some great guys along the way, learned a lot from all the different people, and had a lot of fun as well. I could move closer to theses areas but I choose to live where I am. The current LSF system is designed for the pilot who wants interact with other pilots, teach and learn at the same time. As far as getting a Level V win from a SOAR club contest. Fat chance, I have resided that I will have to attend smaller contests in far places. Away from guys like, Rich Burnoski, Karl Miller, Jim McCarthy, Tom Kallevang, Jim Bacus, and more. And now the upcoming novice of the group Pat Crosby, watch out he's a good stick. So be careful what you wish for. To attain Level 5 requires dedication, commitment, and yes, money. There is no hobby out there if you want to be good you have to spend money. From Gardening to Cycling, they all have an expensive side to them. And they all take what few of us have... time. Steve Meyer LSF IV At 08:02 AM 9/7/2006, Pat McCleave wrote: Steven, Once again you are missing the point, it is not so much about changing the current system as it is about adding a separate system to the fold for those pilots who do not choose or do not have the means to travel to the big contests in order to complete the list of tasks. Funny thing is, almost all of those that are so apposed to any change just happen to be fortunate enough to be involved with clubs that have regular monthly contests 20 or more pilots. Maybe if the shoe were on the other foot and you guys had to travel hundreds of miles and spend hundreds of dollars everytime you wanted to attend a contest with 20 or more people, you might see it another way. If I were a new guy just starting out and did not already know several of the people on here, I would get the feeling that most of you guys were a pretty elitist group and could care less about new pilots joining the group. I know this is not the case, because like I said, I know most of you know differently but a new guy just signing up on the list would not know that. Perception plays a very big role in things. We really need to keep that in mind. See Ya, Pat RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
Steven, Once again you are missing the point, it is not so much about changing the current system as it is about adding a separate system to the fold for those pilots who do not choose or do not have the means to travel to the big contests in order to complete the list of tasks. Funny thing is, almost all of those that are so apposed to any change just happen to be fortunate enough to be involved with clubs that have regular monthly contests 20 or more pilots. Maybe if the shoe were on the other foot and you guys had to travel hundreds of miles and spend hundreds of dollars everytime you wanted to attend a contest with 20 or more people, you might see it another way. If I were a new guy just starting out and did not already know several of the people on here, I would get the feeling that most of you guys were a pretty elitist group and could care less about new pilots joining the group. I know this is not the case, because like I said, I know most of you know differently but a new guy just signing up on the list would not know that. Perception plays a very big role in things. We really need to keep that in mind. See Ya, Pat S Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is my comment on this subject. Not everybody can be a Level V, otherwise there would be no reason to attain it. No reason to change rules so more can reach the apogee. Next they will want a handicap system for world competition. The few the proud... I aspire to be a level V. Steven Meyer LSF IV 1/2 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF discussion
Testing the waters for a different type of LSF http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=554577 It's a long one... Jim Deck wrote: OK, probably most members of RCSE are aware of it but, for those who aren't, a good discussion concerning the LSF is taking place in Sailplane Talk on RCGroups. Both members non-members of the LSF may find it interesting. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
I have stayed out of this foray but will offer only one clarification. When you talk about the planes of yor, we all flew those. Today we all fly what is out there today so the competition is just as meaningful as it was 20 years ago. It is not moldies against woodies but the playing field is still level. It is just as hard today as it was 20 years ago, in fact for me it is harder because age is catching up with capability.BTW, got most of my LV wins with the woodies. Have needed the 8 hour for about 12-15 years and never had the desire to do it to complete the V. JackOn 9/6/06, Pat McCleave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Guys,Here is my 2 cents worth on the topic.First off, I am currently a Level III Pilot needing only my Goal and Return to complete Level IV.I plan to continue under the current guidlines to strive to reach Level V.I am going to do so because I have always felt like and still do feel like the LSF program is strictly a personal accomplishment program and always will be.I have had to complete Level IV basically twice because I lost my original voucher with only needing to compete in one more contest to complete it.Oh well, big deal it is all about the journey anyway and it was fun to do it all again.I know for me to ever reach Level V,I am going to have to travel and do so a lot to get there.The deal is, you not only have to find the contests with 20 or more contestants you have to beat 19 or more of those contestants 3 times to complete your task.I may never complete the journey, but I will never regret starting it and working my way along the path.I have met many friends along the way and hope to meet many more before I am done. With all that being said, I personally think there would be nothing wrong at all with some of the suggestions being made for a two tier system.The idea of a two tier system will not change the overall accomplishment put forth by the program.It will just give another program in which to persue. The arguement of How Dare do you Change the Current System is every bit as outdated and and old as the arguement to change it.I am sure glad that we did not all pose the same arguement when it came to new glider designs over the same time period that the LSF has been in existance.If you are all so worried about protecting the accomplishment of those that came before us in getting to Level V then do the tasks with the same types of planes they used instead of the latest and greatest world beater molded plane. Change is not always evil, and in most cases will promote growth, new interest, and even revives old interest. Okay, I will step down and let the next guy have his turn at this.See Ya,Pat McCleaveWichita, KSRCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to soaring-request@airage.com.Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jack IafretHome and Hobbies
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
Here is my comment on this subject. Not everybody can be a Level V, otherwise there would be no reason to attain it. No reason to change rules so more can reach the apogee. Next they will want a handicap system for world competition. The few the proud... I aspire to be a level V. Steven Meyer LSF IV 1/2 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF discussion Contests
I love competition. However, unless you live near a big club, there's little chance to find contests with 20 people +. The idea of developing skills and enjoying the sport is the most important aspect in my opinion. If there's no way to do the competition circuit unless you are very well off, it keeps a lot of flyer's from doing any tasks. I believe it is important to attend some contests for the experience and comradery, but not have to win some with 20+ people. Newbies are the most affected by the expense of going to far away contests. Those that have the luxury of monthly contests and/or can afford to attend contests are the ones who tend to support this aspect. I signed up a number of LSF flyers (5 or 6 at least) and all but one got stopped by the competition aspect (he moved away to a bigger city closer to the competitions and is doing very well). This part was great in the early days of larger clubs, but with the difficulty of even keeping a club going, the level of competition required for LSF is more than daunting. It pretty much eliminates the smaller clubs with only a few members. I think having just an attendance requirement of 3 or 4 contests with 10 or more over the course of the levels will provide the experience of contests without limiting it to just the rich and infamous. Another tough aspect of LSF is the requirement to have LSF witnesses. It's basically impossible in my neck of the woods at this time. I don't see any problem with LSF changing with the times, if those that are in the 121 are kept separate and recognized for their super achievement. Having two types of goals you can select for LSF (TD no contests, 21 or older AMA witnesses) and the existing one might open it up for a good many flyers. I know it would help the many hundreds that signed up but stopped because of contests. I doubt that it would be that difficult to have two different sets of task sheets within the existing LSF. Jim Deck If someone wants to set up another achievement program, I will gladly participate and still work on my LSF V in the current format. I will also volunteer to help Tom, Larry, Bill and Steve work out the details of an additional set of goals based on the needs and resources of the smaller clubs. IMHO TB - Original Message - From: Rick Eckel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chip Willis [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'James V. Bacus' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'RCSE' soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 9:45 AM Subject: RE: [RCSE] LSF discussion I would disagree. Jim may have not caught every post and didn't catch the disclaimers. It wasn't the originators intent to bash LSF. And I didn't see any bashing from the originator - perhaps a few of the other posts went that way but generally it was a pretty even discussion. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF discussion
Actually, having read through a majority of the thread, I don't see him as attacking the LSF. He says again and again that he respects the LSF system, but is looking for something that isn't so dependent upon contests. It's something that even I've heard repeatedly, and I've only been running in these circles for the last few years. Not to discount his argument, but I think there is a bigger issue that looms above us all - and that is the atrophy of our niche of the aeromodeling hobby. Our local club (LASS, from Louisville) has seen it's numbers dwindle in the past few years, and while we do have our own shining example of new blood, he's only one kid. We're lucky to get enough people to hold a legal LSF II contest on the weekends. I'd love to see some more new blood in the hobby - and that doesn't just mean new people, but also some new ideas - and I'll give an ear to just about anyone who has an idea that might help me put more people in my club and more planes in the air. I love the LSF program, and it is my goal to hit LSF V sometime in the next few years (I'm a hair away from LSF IV), but that'll be moot if I don't have anyone around me to fly with! What a bummer that'd be! James V. Bacus wrote: I've read it all before.. A guy looks at the LSF task set and they seem daunting so he figures he will redesign them. Instead of actually joining LSF and figuring what its all about its much easier to attack it from the computer on the forums, e-lists, or where ever it may get attention. Not face to face. Go after the topic many find daunting, contesting. Discover through the debate that this takes many people to pull a new organization off so maybe the LSF could help them out? Right, you started out against us. The thing I find strange is that level based system is sort of contest in itself, you obtain levels so you can compare your skill set to others. Yet some folks just don't want to do that face to face. When will some people realize almost all the hobbies you will entertain yourself with are about the people, not the toy. It's about going out and having fun with friends, it's simple as that. -- ben wilson louisville area soaring society http://www.louisvillesoaring.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://thelocust.org/ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] LSF discussion
That is about the Best Summation I have ever read. Great Job Jim. chip -Original Message- From: James V. Bacus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 8:56 AM To: RCSE Subject: Re: [RCSE] LSF discussion I've read it all before... A guy looks at the LSF task set and they seem daunting so he figures he will redesign them. Instead of actually joining LSF and figuring what its all about its much easier to attack it from the computer on the forums, e-lists, or where ever it may get attention. Not face to face. Go after the topic many find daunting, contesting. Discover through the debate that this takes many people to pull a new organization off so maybe the LSF could help them out? Right, you started out against us. The thing I find strange is that level based system is sort of contest in itself, you obtain levels so you can compare your skill set to others. Yet some folks just don't want to do that face to face. When will some people realize almost all the hobbies you will entertain yourself with are about the people, not the toy. It's about going out and having fun with friends, it's simple as that. At 06:43 AM 9/6/2006, Ben Wilson wrote: Testing the waters for a different type of LSF http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=554577 It's a long one... Jim Deck wrote: OK, probably most members of RCSE are aware of it but, for those who aren't, a good discussion concerning the LSF is taking place in Sailplane Talk on RCGroups. Both members non-members of the LSF may find it interesting. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] LSF discussion
I would disagree. Jim may have not caught every post and didn't catch the disclaimers. It wasn't the originators intent to bash LSF. And I didn't see any bashing from the originator - perhaps a few of the other posts went that way but generally it was a pretty even discussion. However I would question whether you can actually design tasks and goals for folks who have generally described themselves as being against tasks and goals. After all that is what a competition is. But if they find a way to make everyone happy, I wish them well. I'm not against anything that might help others discover the joys of soaring. Rick LSF I At 09:29 AM 9/6/2006, Chip Willis wrote: That is about the Best Summation I have ever read. Great Job Jim. chip -Original Message- From: James V. Bacus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 8:56 AM To: RCSE Subject: Re: [RCSE] LSF discussion I've read it all before... A guy looks at the LSF task set and they seem daunting so he figures he will redesign them. Instead of actually joining LSF and figuring what its all about its much easier to attack it from the computer on the forums, e-lists, or where ever it may get attention. Not face to face. Go after the topic many find daunting, contesting. Discover through the debate that this takes many people to pull a new organization off so maybe the LSF could help them out? Right, you started out against us. The thing I find strange is that level based system is sort of contest in itself, you obtain levels so you can compare your skill set to others. Yet some folks just don't want to do that face to face. When will some people realize almost all the hobbies you will entertain yourself with are about the people, not the toy. It's about going out and having fun with friends, it's simple as that. At 06:43 AM 9/6/2006, Ben Wilson wrote: Testing the waters for a different type of LSF http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=554577 It's a long one... Jim Deck wrote: OK, probably most members of RCSE are aware of it but, for those who aren't, a good discussion concerning the LSF is taking place in Sailplane Talk on RCGroups. Both members non-members of the LSF may find it interesting. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: Re: [RCSE] LSF discussion
Hello Chuck!!!AMEN!!!cheersJim
Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion
Jack, Yes we are now competiting with like ships, but I am guessing Pike perfect would be a whole lot easier to get a 6.2 mile Goal and Return than it was with a Sailair. Both are capable of completing the task, one would be much more efficient at completing the task than the other. See Ya, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS - Original Message - From: Jack Iafret To: Pat McCleave Cc: RCSE Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] LSF Discussion I have stayed out of this foray but will offer only one clarification. When you talk about the planes of yor, we all flew those. Today we all fly what is out there today so the competition is just as meaningful as it was 20 years ago. It is not moldies against woodies but the playing field is still level. It is just as hard today as it was 20 years ago, in fact for me it is harder because age is catching up with capability.BTW, got most of my LV wins with the woodies. Have needed the 8 hour for about 12-15 years and never had the desire to do it to complete the V. Jack On 9/6/06, Pat McCleave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Guys,Here is my 2 cents worth on the topic.First off, I am currently a Level III Pilot needing only my Goal and Return to complete Level IV.I plan to continue under the current guidlines to strive to reach Level V.I am going to do so because I have always felt like and still do feel like the LSF program is strictly a personal accomplishment program and always will be.I have had to complete Level IV basically twice because I lost my original voucher with only needing to compete in one more contest to complete it.Oh well, big deal it is all about the journey anyway and it was fun to do it all again.I know for me to ever reach Level V,I am going to have to travel and do so a lot to get there.The deal is, you not only have to find the contests with 20 or more contestants you have to beat 19 or more of those contestants 3 times to complete your task.I may never complete the journey, but I will never regret starting it and working my way along the path.I have met many friends along the way and hope to meet many more before I am done. With all that being said, I personally think there would be nothing wrong at all with some of the suggestions being made for a two tier system.The idea of a two tier system will not change the overall accomplishment put forth by the program.It will just give another program in which to persue. The arguement of How Dare do you Change the Current System is every bit as outdated and and old as the arguement to change it.I am sure glad that we did not all pose the same arguement when it came to new glider designs over the same time period that the LSF has been in existance.If you are all so worried about protecting the accomplishment of those that came before us in getting to Level V then do the tasks with the same types of planes they used instead of the latest and greatest world beater molded plane. Change is not always evil, and in most cases will promote growth, new interest, and even revives old interest. Okay, I will step down and let the next guy have his turn at this.See Ya,Pat McCleaveWichita, KSRCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to soaring-request@airage.com.Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jack IafretHome and Hobbies
[RCSE] LSF Discussion
Hi Guys, Here is my 2 cents worth on the topic. First off, I am currently a Level III Pilot needing only my Goal and Return to complete Level IV. I plan to continue under the current guidlines to strive to reach Level V. I am going to do so because I have always felt like and still do feel like the LSF program is strictly a personal accomplishment program and always will be. I have had to complete Level IV basically twice because I lost my original voucher with only needing to compete in one more contest to complete it. Oh well, big deal it is all about the journey anyway and it was fun to do it all again. I know for me to ever reach Level V, I am going to have to travel and do so a lot to get there. The deal is, you not only have to find the contests with 20 or more contestants you have to beat 19 or more of those contestants 3 times to complete your task. I may never complete the journey, but I will never regret starting it and working my way along the path. I have met many friends along the way and hope to meet many more before I am done. With all that being said, I personally think there would be nothing wrong at all with some of the suggestions being made for a two tier system. The idea of a two tier system will not change the overall accomplishment put forth by the program. It will just give another program in which to persue. The arguement of How Dare do you Change the Current System is every bit as outdated and and old as the arguement to change it. I am sure glad that we did not all pose the same arguement when it came to new glider designs over the same time period that the LSF has been in existance. If you are all so worried about protecting the accomplishment of those that came before us in getting to Level V then do the tasks with the same types of planes they used instead of the latest and greatest world beater molded plane. Change is not always evil, and in most cases will promote growth, new interest, and even revives old interest. Okay, I will step down and let the next guy have his turn at this. See Ya, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF discussion
At 11:08 PM 9/5/2006, you wrote: OK, probably most members of RCSE are aware of it but, for those who aren't, a good discussion concerning the LSF is taking place in Sailplane Talk on RCGroups. Both members non-members of the LSF may find it interesting. Here we go again with the same old discussion for the umpteenth time by the same people who want awards without doing the work to run such a program. Let somebody else do it and they will reap the rewards. Rode this Mary-go-around too many times. One thing this discussion has done was to liven up RCSE. Things were getting so slow I was thinking of posting part 3 of my last war story. Chuck Andeson LSF IV LSF583, NSS 72,361 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF discussion
On Wed, 6 Sep 2006, Ben Wilson wrote: mean new people, but also some new ideas - and I'll give an ear to just about anyone who has an idea that might help me put more people in my club and more planes in the air. (Young) people are unaware that such thing as R/C soaring exists. It might be worthwhile to show the cool side of this hobby to masses. Like get one of those nice videos Paul Naton and Dave Reese put out and show it on Discovery or some other appropriate channel. Or make a reality show where 10 beautiful models learn to fly 10 beautiful models. regards, Arne RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] LSF discussion
I've read it all before... A guy looks at the LSF task set and they seem daunting so he figures he will redesign them. Instead of actually joining LSF and figuring what its all about its much easier to attack it from the computer on the forums, e-lists, or where ever it may get attention. Not face to face. Go after the topic many find daunting, contesting. Discover through the debate that this takes many people to pull a new organization off so maybe the LSF could help them out? Right, you started out against us. The thing I find strange is that level based system is sort of contest in itself, you obtain levels so you can compare your skill set to others. Yet some folks just don't want to do that face to face. When will some people realize almost all the hobbies you will entertain yourself with are about the people, not the toy. It's about going out and having fun with friends, it's simple as that. At 06:43 AM 9/6/2006, Ben Wilson wrote: Testing the waters for a different type of LSF http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=554577 It's a long one... Jim Deck wrote: OK, probably most members of RCSE are aware of it but, for those who aren't, a good discussion concerning the LSF is taking place in Sailplane Talk on RCGroups. Both members non-members of the LSF may find it interesting. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] LSF discussion
OK, probably most members of RCSE are aware of it but, for those who aren't, a good discussion concerning the LSF is taking place in Sailplane Talk on RCGroups. Both members non-members of the LSF may find it interesting. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
