Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
In a message dated 07/14/2008 8:21:54 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: After watching the World F3J I had an idea for a contest... Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format. You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that time down on your card... For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest Suggestions ? Comments? Craig Having read the other replies, I think the solution would be to have a device that timed the length of time the winch motor was on for the launch and deduct that from the score. That would allow a woody to tap up to the top and take their time doing so without incurring the time on tow penalty. The penalty would then be for time using power on tow. Bill Wingstedt **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
Craig, What is with messing around with winch time All minimizing winch time does is make planes go up faster, and have them built like composite bullets. Why not do something simple, like take the weight of the plane, mulitply it by seconds and get a max time you have to fly?? We once talked about this , way back, when people used to fly scale, or really stand off scale in the LSF tounaments and SSOAR NAT (that dates me!) Pilots often chose unique projects that could not compete with the slicker ships. A Schul Glider had a L/D of 15: or so. If you took the L/D and multiply it by say 10 seconds, that meant that your max time had to be 150 seconds (2.5 minutes), which was reasonable for draggy, early gliders. If you had a Kestral, with an L/D of 36:1, that meant 360 seconds, or 6 minutes. That was reasonable for a slick glider. That kept scale gliders of all vintages competitive. So...let me ask this: What happens if the launch is a discus launch of a 100 glider NO TOW TIME Think about it. If you know you can hand launch into a thermal, why loose 4-5 seconds every time Hello JW!! Personally, any time you try to do this stuff, it always ends up with a conclusion no one wants to fly! Chris Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest ideaTime on tow penalty for TD? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, July 15, 2008 6:03 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], soaring@airage.com In a message dated 07/14/2008 8:21:54 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: After watching the World F3J I had an idea for a contest... Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format. You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that time down on your card... For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest Suggestions ? Comments? Craig Having read the other replies, I think the solution would be to have a device that timed the length of time the winch motor was on for the launch and deduct that from the score. That would allow a woody to tap up to the top and take their time doing so without incurring the time on tow penalty. The penalty would then be for time using power on tow. Bill Wingstedt **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
Wow, another how you launch discussion! Check out the 18 pages of stuff on RCGroups-Electric Sailplanes if you want to get all the in's and out's of launching in a TD contest with motors. It is under the F5J thread http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=883683. It is a worthwhile discussion on how to save the Electric Sailplane Nat's by getting winch launched TD pilots involved in using electric motors to launch F3J style to a specific altitude and making it a real sailplane contest. Our club is experimenting with this a little and I hope to organize a demo sometime during the WL Nat's to generate some interest. So far our club likes both launch methods but the impromptu MOM contest with electrics is winning. No winch problems and almost any plane or power system works. I am still tweaking some of the little differences we will need for F5J but hope to have a rules set built within the next year and tested over the next couple of years (maybe at the Nat's like I did with Nostalgia) before submitting a rules change proposal to AMA. Jack On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:03 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 07/14/2008 8:21:54 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: After watching the World F3J I had an idea for a contest... Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format. You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that time down on your card... For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest Suggestions ? Comments? Craig Having read the other replies, I think the solution would be to have a device that timed the length of time the winch motor was on for the launch and deduct that from the score. That would allow a woody to tap up to the top and take their time doing so without incurring the time on tow penalty. The penalty would then be for time using power on tow. Bill Wingstedt **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jack Iafret Home and Hobbies
Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
That would be interesting. It could force short tows even in conditions that are nominal. It's also good discipline for learning short launches and low alt recovery. I think the added man power requirement and potential for human error would kill this if you added a launch time keeper at each station. Each club would need a PA system and working times other wise individual timers would be required for each launch. If they use a PA system thent he time just starts and stops when the plane comes off the hook and landssame outcome. DW On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Craig Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After watching the World F3J I had an idea for a contest... Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format. You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that time down on your card... For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest Suggestions ? Comments? Craig
RE: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow added for TD?
I think everyone has made good points... I like the idea of extra points for time on tow... I know it would be a lot harder to keep my Sharon on tow for the same time as my AvA... I'm just bored with TD I guess... Anyone want a Sharon? PS... This last weekend we should of had one of the best 2 day Contest in NorCal. The Gamblers Gala, hosted by the Sierra Silent Soarers and CD'd by none other than the Great Lee Cox... Unfortunately it was canceled... I think I speak for a lot of pilots when I say I'm sorry that it was not held and hope it comes back next year... :-) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Craig, What is with messing around with winch time All minimizing winch time does is make planes go up faster, and have them built like composite bullets. Why not do something simple, like take the weight of the plane, mulitply it by seconds and get a max time you have to fly?? We once talked about this , way back, when people used to fly scale, or really stand off scale in the LSF tounaments and SSOAR NAT (that dates me!) Pilots often chose unique projects that could not compete with the slicker ships. A Schul Glider had a L/D of 15: or so. If you took the L/D and multiply it by say 10 seconds, that meant that your max time had to be 150 seconds (2.5 minutes), which was reasonable for draggy, early gliders. If you had a Kestral, with an L/D of 36:1, that meant 360 seconds, or 6 minutes. That was reasonable for a slick glider. That kept scale gliders of all vintages competitive. So...let me ask this: What happens if the launch is a discus launch of a 100 glider NO TOW TIME Think about it. If you know you can hand launch into a thermal, why loose 4-5 seconds every time Hello JW!! Personally, any time you try to do this stuff, it always ends up with a conclusion no one wants to fly! Chris Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest ideaTime on tow penalty for TD? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, July 15, 2008 6:03 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], soaring@airage.com In a message dated 07/14/2008 8:21:54 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: After watching the World F3J I had an idea for a contest... Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format. You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that time down on your card... For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest Suggestions ? Comments? Craig Having read the other replies, I think the solution would be to have a device that timed the length of time the winch motor was on for the launch and deduct that from the score. That would allow a woody to tap up to the top and take their time doing so without incurring the time on tow penalty. The penalty would then be for time using power on tow. Bill Wingstedt **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
Oh, cool, I can get my ultra high tech model with super expensive high modulus carbon to keep the weight down and have real fun Or I'll just pop off with my Bubble Dancer at .1 second. Shorter winch lines usually work better. Plus it gives the ligher models a better chance since they no longer have to lift up the ton of line required to keep the big models from breaking it all the time. Plus, if you break it, you fly it That always encourages everyone to stop abusing the winch. And if that doesn't work, go for longer times. Actually, the launch discussion is kind of silly. You must all be talking to electric guys who can't define a launch because they all use different launch equipment. Electric sailplanes are in competition are a total turnoff for me because your launch equipment goes obsolete so fast. AMA TD (or basically Unlimited these days) is what it is because of the Ford Long Shaft motor and 300lb line. Everyone has somewhat similar launch equipment, and we can all agree on what to fly. F3b is also working (except for the denial that it exists in the US) because it has a well defined launch system. Everyone can go out and practice and try to design better flying models instead of better launching equipment. F3j with the current rules is broken. It is very much the luck of the timer. I know the past few team selections, which timer you had was good for a 1 second difference in flight time. It's basically a launch race and timer reaction time event where you take yourself out of the competition by missing the 100 landing. Models and launch technique are a long way from what was created. And shorter launches will only introduce more luck with being on the wrong side of the field. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Craig, What is with messing around with winch time All minimizing winch time does is make planes go up faster, and have them built like composite bullets. Why not do something simple, like take the weight of the plane, mulitply it by seconds and get a max time you have to fly?? We once talked about this , way back, when people used to fly scale, or really stand off scale in the LSF tounaments and SSOAR NAT (that dates me!) Pilots often chose unique projects that could not compete with the slicker ships. A Schul Glider had a L/D of 15: or so. If you took the L/D and multiply it by say 10 seconds, that meant that your max time had to be 150 seconds (2.5 minutes), which was reasonable for draggy, early gliders. If you had a Kestral, with an L/D of 36:1, that meant 360 seconds, or 6 minutes. That was reasonable for a slick glider. That kept scale gliders of all vintages competitive. So...let me ask this: What happens if the launch is a discus launch of a 100 glider NO TOW TIME Think about it. If you know you can hand launch into a thermal, why loose 4-5 seconds every time Hello JW!! Personally, any time you try to do this stuff, it always ends up with a conclusion no one wants to fly! Chris Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest ideaTime on tow penalty for TD? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, July 15, 2008 6:03 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], soaring@airage.com In a message dated 07/14/2008 8:21:54 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: After watching the World F3J I had an idea for a contest... Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format. You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that time down on your card... For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest Suggestions ? Comments? Craig Having read the other replies, I think the solution would be to have a device that timed the length of time the winch motor was on for the launch and deduct that from the score. That would allow a woody to tap up to the top and take their time doing so without incurring the time on tow penalty. The penalty would then be for time using power on tow. Bill Wingstedt **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL
Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
A very good answer Mike! I have been wanting shorter lines in F3J since 2002... But I have to go with the pack as the CIAM meeting said no this year to shorter lines. But to me it seems like more and more competitions in US are now both shorter lines and group scoring? That sounds like a good and good way to go for me. I like a good thermal contest. Maybe pilots will beat me more often but that's cool. Hilsen (regards) Jo Grini Gamleveien 2910 Aurdal Norway mob +47 90898709 www.jojoen.no [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:04:28 -0400 From: Mike Lachowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], soaring@airage.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest ideaTime on tow penalty for TD? Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh, cool, I can get my ultra high tech model with super expensive high modulus carbon to keep the weight down and have real fun Or I'll just pop off with my Bubble Dancer at .1 second. Shorter winch lines usually work better. Plus it gives the ligher models a better chance since they no longer have to lift up the ton of line required to keep the big models from breaking it all the time. Plus, if you break it, you fly it That always encourages everyone to stop abusing the winch. And if that doesn't work, go for longer times. Actually, the launch discussion is kind of silly. You must all be talking to electric guys who can't define a launch because they all use different launch equipment. Electric sailplanes are in competition are a total turnoff for me because your launch equipment goes obsolete so fast. AMA TD (or basically Unlimited these days) is what it is because of the Ford Long Shaft motor and 300lb line. Everyone has somewhat similar launch equipment, and we can all agree on what to fly. F3b is also working (except for the denial that it exists in the US) because it has a well defined launch system. Everyone can go out and practice and try to design better flying models instead of better launching equipment. F3j with the current rules is broken. It is very much the luck of the timer. I know the past few team selections, which timer you had was good for a 1 second difference in flight time. It's basically a launch race and timer reaction time event where you take yourself out of the competition by missing the 100 landing. Models and launch technique are a long way from what was created. And shorter launches will only introduce more luck with being on the wrong side of the field. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
- Original Message From: Mike Lachowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...F3j with the current rules is broken. It is very much the luck of the timer. I know the past few team selections, which timer you had was good for a 1 second difference in flight time == Mike's point may sound arcane, but it is actually central to ensuring the fairness of this event. I made this point after the 2006 and especially the 2004 WCs. An awful lot is decided by a few tenths of a second. There is an inherent error band in the timing of stopping the watch, and an even far greater error band in starting it. And there is the judgment call with respect to overflying the window, which Larry Jolly pointed out as a source of errors this year. In 2004, the WC top places were decided by an amount less than the possible timing error. The FAI rules committee should spend a little time talking to experts in statistics and quality control about how to tweak the rules so that the difference in pilot performance will be much greater than differences occasioned by the nerve pathways of the timer.
RE: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
There has been much talk about discriminating the scores more. There is a new F3J rule where the last 2 meters of the landing tape are graduated. Instead of the in/out hundred landing requirement, there will be more emphasis on the precision of the landing. It will be interesting to see if there is much leeway taken on the timing in order to get a better landing. Jim _ From: tony estep [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:32 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest ideaTime on tow penalty for TD? - Original Message From: Mike Lachowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...F3j with the current rules is broken. It is very much the luck of the timer. I know the past few team selections, which timer you had was good for a 1 second difference in flight time == Mike's point may sound arcane, but it is actually central to ensuring the fairness of this event. I made this point after the 2006 and especially the 2004 WCs. An awful lot is decided by a few tenths of a second. There is an inherent error band in the timing of stopping the watch, and an even far greater error band in starting it. And there is the judgment call with respect to overflying the window, which Larry Jolly pointed out as a source of errors this year. In 2004, the WC top places were decided by an amount less than the possible timing error. The FAI rules committee should spend a little time talking to experts in statistics and quality control about how to tweak the rules so that the difference in pilot performance will be much greater than differences occasioned by the nerve pathways of the timer.
[RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
After watching the World F3J I had an idea for a contest... Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format. You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that time down on your card... For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest Suggestions ? Comments? Craig
RE: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
Gospodarek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 0 DocumentEmail And then another approach: How about adding the time on tow as a bonus so you dont penalize the non-moldy pilots that know how to use a winch. Maybe we could stop the no skill full pedal strength wars. John As someone who knows how to Tap Tap Tap then pedal and zoom.. I like that idea :-).. It works for moldies too :-) -Original Message- From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 9:21 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] Contest ideaTime on tow penalty for TD? After watching the World F3J I had an idea for a contest... Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format. You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that time down on your card... For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest Suggestions ? Comments? Craig
Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
And you are going to handle line breaks on the winches how? There isn't a line used that can't be busted on a full-go-for-it-screw-the-abuse-of-winch launch. Been seeing it for nearly 30 years and doing for nearly as long. Dan Fink - Original Message - From: Craig Allenmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.commailto:soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:21 PM Subject: [RCSE] Contest ideaTime on tow penalty for TD? After watching the World F3J I had an idea for a contest... Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format. You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that time down on your card... For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest Suggestions ? Comments? Craig
Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
So for DP and JW to beat us, they would have the shortest time on the tow, and a hunski landing. The TD portion would bury those that did not get their time. I predict some folks might stress the equipment in order to gain advantage. AMA TD rules have the CD responsible for the launch equipment. If you think there are line break issues now, wait till a speedy as well as high launch becomes the strategy. Not saying it's bad or good, just that's how I would play by those rules. F3J requires you to bring your own launch equipment. If you break a line, or sprain a linebacker towman, it's your issue, not the CD's. WinchDoc ...back to lurking... -- Original message -- From: Craig Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] After watching the World F3J I had an idea for a contest... Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format. You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that time down on your card... For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest Suggestions ? Comments? Craig
[RCSE] Contest Announcement
11 th Annual Fred Fredrickson Memorial Thermal Challenge July 12 and 13, 2007 Ohio Valley Soaring Series for 2008. We intend to make this a FLYING event, not a landing contest, hence the following format: On each day, the contest will be: 1. Four or more rounds of Thermal Duration, with our usual extended flight tasks. The number of rounds will be dependant on the size of the flight group and other factors. 2. Seeded Man-On-Man with normalized scoring within the group. 3. Flight groups will be launched under the control of a Launch Master. 4. Winch positions will be assigned for each flight group. 5. FAI (5 points per meter) landing tape bonus (added AFTER the normalization like the Nats). Please note the following departures from the AMA Rulebook: 1. No skags/skegs/meathooks or ANY type landing arrestors allowed on the aircraft (there may be a hacksaw available at the field for skegs molded into the nosecone). If you MUST fly with a skeg or built-in arrestor, your landing score will be scored at 50% of the point value for being high maintenance. 2. The timer MAY countdown the last 10 seconds of the flight (you do anyway, this makes it official). 3. Contestants are allowed ANY NUMBER of models for the contest and may freely choose for each round. 4. No real-time telemetry or thermal sniffers will be allowed. Entry fee will be $25.00 per contestant for one day, or $35.00 per contestant for both days. Your entry fee includes a provided lunch. Trophies/plaques will be awarded through 5th place each day, with an Overall Champion award for both days. First Place only to Best Sportsman each day. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] contest report for the Cincinnati Soaring Memorial
A contest report with scores and a few pictures for the windy Cincinnati Memorial Contest is available at: http://www.cincinnatisoaring.org/memorial_2008.html Barry Andersen RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest dates?
She Who Must Be Obeyed has asked what the contest schedule is this year. So I need the following dates: Fresno 2 day Bent-wing in Visalia Reno 2 day Sacramento 2 day Fall fest in Visalia Thanks guys, need them before she changes her mind!! Dan Fink
Re: [RCSE] Contest dates?
Spring Fling - June 21 22. See ya there. DAN FINK wrote: She Who Must Be Obeyed has asked what the contest schedule is this year. So I need the following dates: Fresno 2 day Bent-wing in Visalia Reno 2 day Sacramento 2 day Fall fest in Visalia Thanks guys, need them before she changes her mind!! Dan Fink RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest Date-Spring Fling
Looks like June 21-22 for Sacramento, JT RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest dates?
Dudley Dufort [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Spring Fling - June 21 22. See ya there. DAN FINK wrote: She Who Must Be Obeyed has asked what the contest schedule is this year. So I need the following dates: Fresno 2 day Bent-wing in Visalia Reno 2 day-- Gamblers Gala two day July 12 13 Sacramento 2 day Fall fest in Visalia Thanks guys, need them before she changes her mind!! Dan Fink RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format LeeCox-Nevada, U.S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Agree At 05:32 PM 1/11/2008, Jeff Steifel wrote: Too bad Tom, This has been at a very good thread. Different ideas have been presented, hopefully some of the opinions hit there mark. Also what's nice is that people are talking. It's been a while since that happened. Tom Nagel wrote: So far I have deleted approximately 793 RCSE messages on the topic of Contest Format, without reading any of them after the first one or two. How about a new thread? How many RCSE readers out there are deleting all the RCSE messages captioned Contest Format without reading them. Oh. Wait a minute. Those folks won't be seeing this messge. Never mind. Tom H. Nagel Judicatum Procurator Recuperatio RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Guys, Did I miss something in Tim's original post. I do not recall anyware in there it mentioned anything about making it where everybody gets to win. I believe somewhere along the way all you guys have go in your heads that Tim's intent was to make everybody a winner. As much as this group is afraid of trying something that represents a change in the status quo, I have no idea how the OVSS ever got MOM and SMOM off the ground. My guess is if there were 10 contest held around the country all using Tim's format, that when the smoke cleared at the end of the day, the guys in the area that normally win the wood will still be the guys that win the wood. I am much against the new era of everybody wins and lets not keep score or records in kids sports as the next guy. I feel we are raising a whole generation of people who feel they only need to show up to be rewarded. I see it in my work force right now with some of the younger employees. The deal is though, Tim's format DOES NOT promote this. Maybe some of you need to go back and re-read the original email. Just my 2 cents worth. See Ya, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS S Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since it seems we need to make it interesting for the next generation to participate in our hobby, perhaps we should just hand out participation ribbons to everyone? Or perhaps the Top 3rd get a Blue Ribbon, Middle 3rd get Red Ribbons, and the last 3rd or thermalling challenged get White Ribbons. LOL Everybody wins and nobody should be offended. Jeeez, what's this world coming to. Steve RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Since it seems we need to make it interesting for the next generation to participate in our hobby, perhaps we should just hand out participation ribbons to everyone? Or perhaps the Top 3rd get a Blue Ribbon, Middle 3rd get Red Ribbons, and the last 3rd or thermalling challenged get White Ribbons. LOL Everybody wins and nobody should be offended. Jeeez, what's this world coming to. Steve RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
I don't care who you are, now that's funny no gray cup in the Europe ,,but true - Original Message - From: Tom Coppmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Soaring@airage.commailto:Soaring@airage.com Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:44 AM Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format Yes, I see the same thing too. The Europeans make F3J and F3B the F1 of soaring and because they do they bring in the new guys. You will get your butt kicked when you start out and what do they do to help you? Nothing.its sink or swim. The best teacher I ever had was a good ass kicking! Getting old? Can't see? Tough, move over old man there are 50 new guys waiting to replace you. No one is complaining about buying a winch or model and in many cases it's more difficult over there to come up with Toy Money plus the cost to travel to a comp is expensive. Yes sure Europe is small but have you ever drove from Spain/France to Germany? Shoot the toll fees will exceed the cost of fuel (at 8.00+ a gallon!) yet contests are full and the parties are well worth the effort. The USA TD contest pilots are dieing. I mean literally dieing (RIP) no new blood. The writing has been on the wall for years.. Its time to read the wall. Tom -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format A note in support of Tom's comments, I noticed that the Munich F3k Contest registration opened up last week. I was considering going over and was trying to organize it with some friends. The competition was full in 3 days 110 confirmed 15 on a back up list. I have seen this over and over in European Events. I have also noticed a younger crowd showing up. My Best regards Larry Wow lots of stuff here. In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance inside the USA is diminishing. Why? Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line in time; they don't soften the task for anyone. They play hardball over there and their attendance is thriving. snip
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Will it be, I beat Gordy buttons for everyone!? Wow, I feel better already. :-) At 10:53 AM 1/11/2008, Jack Strother wrote: I think we should try this at the Next SOAR Contest. Heck Buttons for everybody, we all show up and win, then off for Margs !!! Hey no equipment issues either -- Jack Strother Granger, IN LSF 2948 LSF Level V #117 LSF Official 1996 - 2004 CSS Gold -- Original message -- From: S Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Since it seems we need to make it interesting for the next generation to participate in our hobby, perhaps we should just hand out participation ribbons to everyone? Or perhaps the Top 3rd get a Blue Ribbon, Middle 3rd get Red Ribbons, and the last 3rd or thermalling challenged get White Ribbons. LOL Everybody wins and nobody should be offended. Jeeez, what's this world coming to. Steve RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Well said Tom ! Tom Copp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow lots of stuff here. In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance inside the USA is diminishing. Why? Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line in time; they don't soften the task for anyone. They play hardball over there and their attendance is thriving. Inside the USA most of our formats are the same since the late 70's while our models have evolved over the last 30+ years the contests have not. Our attendance is shrinking, we give in to a sandbagger, and we don't want to change anything to keep the pilots we have coming back. We don't push ourselves to try anything new and learn something. Sure the new guy has lots to learn starting from zero but after 6 months what is next? Guys soaring is not difficult. How many of us are significantly better pilots after the first 2 or 3 years? What have you learned the last 3 years? We quit flying if the conditions get a little rough. You can choose your issue all day long as why we get board or why attendance is shrinking. BTW, Each and every contest I have been to is a social event! That's the nature of humans. We tend to have fun when we can. I would say lets play a little hardball and push our skills a bit and move up a peg. The USA was at one time a soaring leader we sure can't say that anymore. Tom Copp Composite Specialties www.f3x.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
I think we should try this at the Next SOAR Contest. Heck Buttons for everybody, we all show up and win, then off for Margs !!! Hey no equipment issues either -- Jack Strother Granger, IN LSF 2948 LSF Level V #117 LSF Official 1996 - 2004 CSS Gold -- Original message -- From: S Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Since it seems we need to make it interesting for the next generation to participate in our hobby, perhaps we should just hand out participation ribbons to everyone? Or perhaps the Top 3rd get a Blue Ribbon, Middle 3rd get Red Ribbons, and the last 3rd or thermalling challenged get White Ribbons. LOL Everybody wins and nobody should be offended. Jeeez, what's this world coming to. Steve RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
A note in support of Tom's comments, I noticed that the Munich F3k Contest registration opened up last week. I was considering going over and was trying to organize it with some friends. The competition was full in 3 days 110 confirmed 15 on a back up list. I have seen this over and over in European Events. I have also noticed a younger crowd showing up. My Best regards Larry Wow lots of stuff here. In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance inside the USA is diminishing. Why? Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line in time; they don't soften the task for anyone. They play hardball over there and their attendance is thriving. Inside the USA most of our formats are the same since the late 70's while our models have evolved over the last 30+ years the contests have not. Our attendance is shrinking, we give in to a sandbagger, and we don't want to change anything to keep the pilots we have coming back. We don't push ourselves to try anything new and learn something. Sure the new guy has lots to learn starting from zero but after 6 months what is next? Guys soaring is not difficult. How many of us are significantly better pilots after the first 2 or 3 years? What have you learned the last 3 years? We quit flying if the conditions get a little rough. You can choose your issue all day long as why we get board or why attendance is shrinking. BTW, Each and every contest I have been to is a social event! That's the nature of humans. We tend to have fun when we can. I would say lets play a little hardball and push our skills a bit and move up a peg. The USA was at one time a soaring leader we sure can't say that anymore. Tom Copp Composite Specialties www.f3x.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Tom, Larry, All: The Munich F3K German Open had entries starting 12/1/2007 per the spreadsheet. It was only this Monday that a note was sent by Phil Barnes telling us that there were 85 entries already and if you wanted to go, you needed to submit an app ASAP. The US/world frenzie started and luckily I was able to get in. I will have to say that DLG is more Competitor-friendly versus F3B/J events. I think that the simplicity of DLG with regard to launching, as well as MOM competition rounds, are some of the main reasons US DLG pilots are more interested. Additionally, flying areas are more available and two or more people can fly together. DLG is alot like whatparkflyers are for electrics. Personally, when I am at the local park flying my DLG I have many people come over to see it and wonder how I am getting it up so high. Electric parkflyer pilots often get jealous when I can fly for 2 hours while they have to sit around and wait for a charge and then buzz around for only 10 minutes. Think about it. Look at Visalia, for example and the 20 or more DLG pilots that fly after the contest, no waiting around. Do I see alot of pilots coming into soaring, yes. It's only that they are choosing DLG versus the social TD waiting contests. I agree with Tom that we need to play hardball and not do cushy contests. Like I have been doing for the IHLGF contests the past 5 years, I am going to try to take pictures of each plane and pilot and alot more when I attend the German Open. If I do not do well, I will at least inject myself with the design and flying enthusiasm they have over there. We need to share technology and flying skills, not have them softened by waiting around. I know I will be drinking alot of beer with those guys like we do here. Chris Adams Original Message Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format From: Tom Copp [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, January 11, 2008 9:44 am To: Soaring@airage.com Yes, I see the same thing too. The Europeans make F3J and F3B the F1 of soaring and because they do they bring in the new guys. You will get your butt kicked when you start out and what do they do to help you? Nothing.its sink or swim. The best teacher I ever had was a good ass kicking! Getting old? Can't see? Tough, move over old man there are 50 new guys waiting to replace you. No one is complaining about buying a winch or model and in many cases it's more difficult over there to come up with Toy Money plus the cost to travel to a comp is expensive. Yes sure Europe is small but have you ever drove from Spain/France to Germany? Shoot the toll fees will exceed the cost of fuel (at 8.00+ a gallon!) yet contests are full and the parties are well worth the effort. The USA TD contest pilots are dieing. I mean literally dieing (RIP) no new blood. The writing has been on the wall for years.. Its time to read the wall. Tom -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format A note in support of Tom's comments, I noticed that the Munich F3k Contest registration opened up last week. I was considering going over and was trying to organize it with some friends. The competition was full in 3 days 110 confirmed 15 on a back up list. I have seen this over and over in European Events. I have also noticed a younger crowd showing up. My Best regards Larry Wow lots of stuff here. In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance inside the USA is diminishing. Why? Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line in time; they don't soften the task for anyone. They play hardball over there and their attendance is thriving. snip RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Visalia use to max out entries in one day, back when. I do not know of any other major contests TODAY in the USA that closes pilot entries in 3 days. You know I have a itch to fly Euro Glide this year.. joe - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Soaring@airage.commailto:Soaring@airage.com Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format A note in support of Tom's comments, I noticed that the Munich F3k Contest registration opened up last week. I was considering going over and was trying to organize it with some friends. The competition was full in 3 days 110 confirmed 15 on a back up list. I have seen this over and over in European Events. I have also noticed a younger crowd showing up. My Best regards Larry Wow lots of stuff here. In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance inside the USA is diminishing. Why? Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line in time; they don't soften the task for anyone. They play hardball over there and their attendance is thriving. Inside the USA most of our formats are the same since the late 70's while our models have evolved over the last 30+ years the contests have not. Our attendance is shrinking, we give in to a sandbagger, and we don't want to change anything to keep the pilots we have coming back. We don't push ourselves to try anything new and learn something. Sure the new guy has lots to learn starting from zero but after 6 months what is next? Guys soaring is not difficult. How many of us are significantly better pilots after the first 2 or 3 years? What have you learned the last 3 years? We quit flying if the conditions get a little rough. You can choose your issue all day long as why we get board or why attendance is shrinking. BTW, Each and every contest I have been to is a social event! That's the nature of humans. We tend to have fun when we can. I would say lets play a little hardball and push our skills a bit and move up a peg. The USA was at one time a soaring leader we sure can't say that anymore. Tom Copp Composite Specialties www.f3x.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shapehttp://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 in the new year.
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
LOL. Does this mean I will have watch the same dudes getting old and still winning? DP will have to think of new naming schemes, I don't think Old Gas Bag will sell too well. Perhaps Skegless will. :-) At 11:44 AM 1/11/2008, Tom Copp wrote: Yes, I see the same thing too. The Europeans make F3J and F3B the F1 of soaring and because they do they bring in the new guys. You will get your butt kicked when you start out and what do they do to help you? Nothing its sink or swim. The best teacher I ever had was a good ass kicking! Getting old? Can't see? Tough, move over old man there are 50 new guys waiting to replace you.
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Wow lots of stuff here. In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance inside the USA is diminishing. Why? Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line in time; they don't soften the task for anyone. They play hardball over there and their attendance is thriving. Inside the USA most of our formats are the same since the late 70's while our models have evolved over the last 30+ years the contests have not. Our attendance is shrinking, we give in to a sandbagger, and we don't want to change anything to keep the pilots we have coming back. We don't push ourselves to try anything new and learn something. Sure the new guy has lots to learn starting from zero but after 6 months what is next? Guys soaring is not difficult. How many of us are significantly better pilots after the first 2 or 3 years? What have you learned the last 3 years? We quit flying if the conditions get a little rough. You can choose your issue all day long as why we get board or why attendance is shrinking. BTW, Each and every contest I have been to is a social event! That's the nature of humans. We tend to have fun when we can. I would say lets play a little hardball and push our skills a bit and move up a peg. The USA was at one time a soaring leader we sure can't say that anymore. Tom Copp Composite Specialties www.f3x.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Is it the type of Society or contest formats that are changing the competitive soaring environment? Overall USA Club membership/participation is down. From my perspective the Europeans have more vacation time and spendable income than USA residents have experienced in over 30 years. Remember when the 40 hour work week was standard? And most had 4 weeks vacation by the time they were 30. Perhaps more science needs to be taught in school? Perhaps too much emphasis on sports and not education? Soaring geeks in the USA just don't rank high on the celebrity list. I think many of the answers and solutions are rooted deep in the economic and social threads of our society. The USA is losing it's position in the world. We have to just follow now. Steve Meyer At 11:00 AM 1/11/2008, Tom Copp wrote: Wow lots of stuff here. In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance inside the USA is diminishing. Why? Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line in time; they don't soften the task for anyone. They play hardball over there and their attendance is thriving. Inside the USA most of our formats are the same since the late 70's while our models have evolved over the last 30+ years the contests have not. Our attendance is shrinking, we give in to a sandbagger, and we don't want to change anything to keep the pilots we have coming back. We don't push ourselves to try anything new and learn something. Sure the new guy has lots to learn starting from zero but after 6 months what is next? Guys soaring is not difficult. How many of us are significantly better pilots after the first 2 or 3 years? What have you learned the last 3 years? We quit flying if the conditions get a little rough. You can choose your issue all day long as why we get board or why attendance is shrinking. BTW, Each and every contest I have been to is a social event! That's the nature of humans. We tend to have fun when we can. I would say lets play a little hardball and push our skills a bit and move up a peg. The USA was at one time a soaring leader we sure can't say that anymore. Tom Copp Composite Specialties www.f3x.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
This modern generation seems to think everybody has to win. Cheat if necessary but win. I don't feel that way. Winning isn't necessary but competition is. I don't look at who beat me. I look at all the people I beat. Placing 17th in unlimited at the Nats with a Sailaire against all the moldies was almost as good as winning and I did beat a lot of them. Chuck At 10:19 AM 1/11/2008, you wrote: Since it seems we need to make it interesting for the next generation to participate in our hobby, perhaps we should just hand out participation ribbons to everyone? Or perhaps the Top 3rd get a Blue Ribbon, Middle 3rd get Red Ribbons, and the last 3rd or thermalling challenged get White Ribbons. LOL Everybody wins and nobody should be offended. Jeeez, what's this world coming to. Steve RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Munich F3K German Open had entries starting 12/1/2007 per the spreadsheet. It was only this Monday that a note was sent by Phil Barnes telling us that there were 85 entries already and if you wanted to go, you needed to submit an app ASAP. The US/world frenzie started and luckily I was able to get in. Here are some details on the Munich F3K registration story: There were 7 registrations on December 1st, then no registration activity until December 28th. I don't think very many people knew that registration was open in December, if it even was open. I'm not sure when the Munich club first posted registration information on their web site. Alex Wunschheim sent some email notices out on December 30th pointing out that registration was open and giving a link to the Munich club website and I then posted that message on RCgroups. Registrations still proceeded slowly because online registration was not yet open. The web site suggested February was when online registration would open. By January 2, there were still only 16 registrations. Then the explosion happened. The remaining 84 positions plus a wait list all happened between January 4 January 7 and this all happened by people sending emails to Alex Wunschheim, online registration was not and never has been open. What happened was a critical mass of anxious people registerred via email and word got around that slots were filling quickly. I sent three different notices to my personal list of interested F3K people. No doubt other people in other countries were sending similar anxious messages. Here is a link to the registration list which has not been updated since January 7. One can only guess what the total wait list looks like: http://www.mcm-muenchen.com/wettbewerbe/Meldeliste.xls Team USA now consists of 11 people that I know of. This includes two junior pilots and three wait listed pilots. I think everyone was stunned at the speed that the contest filled up. There were, no doubt, quite a few who were late sending in registrations because they were away from the computer for a couple days and/or had no clue what was about to happen. The stunning response to this year's German Open F3K, I think, will almost guarantee that there will be an F3K world championships in 2008. I believe the issue comes up at this year's CIAM meeting and no one can deny now that F3K is ready for a world champs. Phil RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Yes, I see the same thing too. The Europeans make F3J and F3B the F1 of soaring and because they do they bring in the new guys. You will get your butt kicked when you start out and what do they do to help you? Nothing.its sink or swim. The best teacher I ever had was a good ass kicking! Getting old? Can't see? Tough, move over old man there are 50 new guys waiting to replace you. No one is complaining about buying a winch or model and in many cases it's more difficult over there to come up with Toy Money plus the cost to travel to a comp is expensive. Yes sure Europe is small but have you ever drove from Spain/France to Germany? Shoot the toll fees will exceed the cost of fuel (at 8.00+ a gallon!) yet contests are full and the parties are well worth the effort. The USA TD contest pilots are dieing. I mean literally dieing (RIP) no new blood. The writing has been on the wall for years.. Its time to read the wall. Tom -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format A note in support of Tom's comments, I noticed that the Munich F3k Contest registration opened up last week. I was considering going over and was trying to organize it with some friends. The competition was full in 3 days 110 confirmed 15 on a back up list. I have seen this over and over in European Events. I have also noticed a younger crowd showing up. My Best regards Larry Wow lots of stuff here. In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance inside the USA is diminishing. Why? Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line in time; they don't soften the task for anyone. They play hardball over there and their attendance is thriving. snip
[RCSE] Contest Format
So far I have deleted approximately 793 RCSE messages on the topic of Contest Format, without reading any of them after the first one or two. How about a new thread? How many RCSE readers out there are deleting all the RCSE messages captioned Contest Format without reading them. Oh. Wait a minute. Those folks won't be seeing this messge. Never mind. Tom H. Nagel Judicatum Procurator Recuperatio
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format New topic
I was thinking about stretching out the wingspan on my skeeter to make it a 2 meter.. Denny Tom Nagel wrote: So far I have deleted approximately 793 RCSE messages on the topic of Contest Format, without reading any of them after the first one or two. How about a new thread? How many RCSE readers out there are deleting all the RCSE messages captioned Contest Format without reading them. Oh. Wait a minute. Those folks won't be seeing this messge. Never mind. Tom H. Nagel Judicatum Procurator Recuperatio No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1218 - Release Date: 1/10/2008 1:32 PM RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: ***SPAMTAGPTD: [RCSE] Contest Format
Too bad Tom, This has been at a very good thread. Different ideas have been presented, hopefully some of the opinions hit there mark. Also what's nice is that people are talking. It's been a while since that happened. Tom Nagel wrote: So far I have deleted approximately 793 RCSE messages on the topic of Contest Format, without reading any of them after the first one or two. How about a new thread? How many RCSE readers out there are deleting all the RCSE messages captioned Contest Format without reading them. Oh. Wait a minute. Those folks won't be seeing this messge. Never mind. Tom H. Nagel Judicatum Procurator Recuperatio -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format - COMPETITION - Nagel delete
In a message dated 1/11/2008 4:11:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This modern generation seems to think everybody has to win. Cheat if necessary but win. I don't feel that way. Winning isn't necessary but competition is. Great statements, but I think the everybody wins comes from the loser parents who think their mediocre offspring should be anointed a winner. The level playing field is a liberal idea that is designed to make everyone FEEL good. Individual achievement cannot be tolerated because the losers might feel bad. Keeping score usually results in the losers (feeling bad) while they should be encouraged to practice, learn and practice to produce better results the next time. Individual achievement belongs to the US, collective achievement belongs to the failed USSR. Personally, like Chuck, I have been doing the life competition thing for a very long time. Should I have asked for special consideration when I finished less than first in my flight training class? Should I have quit the program and looked for a different career? Of course the answer is no and with a bit of extra PERSONAL effort, I turned the less than perfect start into a successful career. So Chuck and I approach model soaring competitions with the same philosophy. Determine the format, find a timer and give it hell. Sometimes we surprise ourselves and win a round or even a contest, but that is the intended, if somewhat unexpected, consequence. Occasionally, if you select the right team mates, you can even win an award like the Pruss Trophy at the NATS (thanks Larry and Craig). Finally, don't level the playing field for me. The seeded man-on-man is a good format for the competitions we hold in the US. The format lends itself to large and small contests with a minimum of personal and equipment. Don't standardize the winches. Just tell me what they are, give me one launch, and start the contest. Don Richmond San Diego, CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] _www.hilaunch.com_ (http://www.hilaunch.com/) **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format? Politics???????
Last time I checked this was a very conservative idea perpetuated by ignorant soccer moms living beyond their means behind gates in the burbs... No? Craig... PS. How did Politics get into Contest Format and uniform launching ideas ? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:The level playing field is a liberal idea that is designed to make everyone FEEL good.
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Here's a format that's fair to everyone and no hurt feelings at the end of the contest. We'll let everyone launch whenever they want and fly for whatever they can accomplish. When they land we'll rub their heads and tell them what a great job they did and give them a max score. If they break the line or pop off we'll ask them if that's their flight or if they want a 'do over'. Either way they are rewarded with a max score for being so aggressive on the launch. If they land off the field we'll give them the max landing score for trying so hard. On the field landing and they get a max score for their great skill. Should anyone crash they would immediately be awarded a max score for heroism and almost saving their plane and a new-in-box replacement for their broken airplane. After the predetermined number of rounds selected to make sure that no one gets too tired during the day we'll give everyone a small trophy and take a group picture to celebrate. Then everyone gets a nice box of juice and candy or cookie snack before they head home. All butterflies and warm milk thoughts will fill their heads as the drive that long highway home. Anything less than this and the contest is obviously unfair, poor sportsmanship or cheating. The argument is over. Cheers Rick PS No ego or emotion was created or destroyed in this post. At 10:52 PM 1/9/2008, Tim Bennett wrote: Jim Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to bury someone who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address. By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance of any competitor. I guess a key objective I left out was: Respect for the dignity of all participants. I also think ...maximizing available flying time during a contest... is better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest format
- Original Message From: Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...in a real contest, 9 points or less out of ten, which corresponds to 900 or less out of 1000, is a low score. So what do you do when you have a typical OVSS field where 4 out of the 7 guys come within a couple of seconds of the max? One has 10:00, one has 10:01, one has 9:58, one has 9:57. You give them 10, 9, 8, 7 respectively? The same as if they scored 10, 9, 8, and 7 minutes? I don't think so.
RE: [RCSE] Contest format
Now who is arguing for political correctness? Thanks for your interest, anyway. Remember that the format is not precision. Everybody who caught the air just flies past the target time and lands within the thirty seconds to collect their ten points. If somebody landed early while somebody else was still flying, He lost the round. That should have a price, as you correctly pointed out, to be fair to everybody else. The situation where everybody hits sink and has to scratch for that last minute before the max is one of the more exciting elements of the format and has validity as a competitive format since it is not what happens in good air that separates the good pilots from the rest, it is who does the best job with the air they have. Think about it. Tim -Original Message- From: tony estep [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:14 AM To: Soaring Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest format - Original Message From: Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...in a real contest, 9 points or less out of ten, which corresponds to 900 or less out of 1000, is a low score. So what do you do when you have a typical OVSS field where 4 out of the 7 guys come within a couple of seconds of the max? One has 10:00, one has 10:01, one has 9:58, one has 9:57. You give them 10, 9, 8, 7 respectively? The same as if they scored 10, 9, 8, and 7 minutes? I don't think so.
[RCSE] Contest format
- Original Message ...Everybody who caught the air just flies past the target time and lands within the thirty seconds to collect their ten points == Still, you can have the odd situation where four guys make 10+, and one makes 9:59; if I understand it correctly, he gets a 6, the equivalent of 600 points, for a flight that should have been worth 999. The best way to avoid all these pathological outcomes is to normalize the scores. If you want to eliminate the precision, then just call every time over 10 minutes 10:00.
Re: [RCSE] Contest format
One time at an OVSS contest in Cincy, Rich Burnoski took me from 3rd to 22nd all in one flight. The last round. I still love MOM. (smile) But I never forget, and got even at the Gateway open about 3 yrs ago in the last contest I think I ever flew in. YUP. I still love MOM. Brian - Original Message - From: Steve Schneider To: RCSE Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest format Maybe we should just do politically correct soaring contests and not keep score, like many kids sports programs these days. We wouldn't want to hurt any ones feelings, now would we? On Jan 9, 2008 10:53 PM, tony estep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Original message: Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do this at TNT... === Marc is right on. At a real contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air and gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to earn low scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there and they blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their failure is better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort of like allowing free popoffs. -- Steve Schneider Buffalo Grove, IL SOAR Club -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 1/9/2008 10:16 AM
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Tim, I see and understand where you are going, and respectfully disagree. I fly model sailplanes to compete and so a contest to me is a test of skills among peers. Like Golfing I work at every aspect of flying to improve my game in order to get that edge on the less skilled, the less prepared and the less knowledgeable. So for me when it all comes together for a win or high place, the taste of victory is sweet although brief is very addictive. This is what keeps me going I can fun fly anytime!! I look forward to a true contest of skills. To level the playing field and to reward players for not being prepared, less skilled or less practiced will give them a false sense of success. They will wonder why they got there A%$ handed to them when they attend a real contest, and who fault is that? smokinjoe
[RCSE] Contest Format
Thank Heavens for the DELETE key. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest Format
Original message: ...To level the playing field and to reward players for not being prepared, less skilled or less practiced... = At first glance it appears to do that. But if you think about how this would have worked at contests you have attended, you might conclude that the overall effect is to introduce arbitrariness and quirky results into the scoring, with no corresponding benefit. It's purely a landing contest for the maxers; a guy who gets a near-max will have the door slammed on him with no chance to recover; and the guys who would have been at the bottom with conventional scoring will still be at the bottom.
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Tim, well done. I really like the idea and the execution. I might try this or a variant at one of our local contests. Anyone that knows me knows that I am a competitor. I like the challenge. I love MoM flight scoring, and can't get enough of FAI style flying. What I really like about this event, is its simplicity in scoring. I am surprised at everyone who thinks this format is not competitive. Just come and fly with us at TPG, and try to keep Mike Smith, Steve Condon, or Aurthor Mkevich (god a killed the sp, but I can pronounce it)from beating you. If you think about how this thing is scored, you will need all 10s to win. So getting buried or not doesn't really matter. Also, landing points still matter. The top guys always get their times, so to win you gotta hit the tape. Same thing here. This kind of format should make for a really fun contest. It promotes the old, I bet you a dollar I win stuff. So Joe R, bring your dollars dude, he who has the least at the end of the contest will get a photo opportunity on the short bus. :) (my wife is special ed teacher, she is secretly getting mad right now). How is that for competative spirit. It should also get more people warmed up to the idea of MoM flying. Take out the luck and bring the skill. So Tim, thanks for trying it out and taking the time to tell us all about it. David Klein, TPGulls BTW, I have flown enough to know that every club in the US has a top competitor or two, so there is no such thing as an easy contest. The only difference here is that the middle of the pack guys will score 900-950 points, instead of 800-900.
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Rick, Good Points... What kind of Cookies are We talking here. Larry Jolly Here's a format that's fair to everyone and no hurt feelings at the end of the contest. We'll let everyone launch whenever they want and fly for whatever they can accomplish. When they land we'll rub their heads and tell them what a great job they did and give them a max score. If they break the line or pop off we'll ask them if that's their flight or if they want a 'do over'. Either way they are rewarded with a max score for being so aggressive on the launch. If they land off the field we'll give them the max landing score for trying so hard. On the field landing and they get a max score for their great skill. Should anyone crash they would immediately be awarded a max score for heroism and almost saving their plane and a new-in-box replacement for their broken airplane. After the predetermined number of rounds selected to make sure that no one gets too tired during the day we'll give everyone a small trophy and take a group picture to celebrate. Then everyone gets a nice box of juice and candy or cookie snack before they head home. All butterflies and warm milk thoughts will fill their heads as the drive that long highway home. Anything less than this and the contest is obviously unfair, poor sportsmanship or cheating. The argument is over. Cheers Rick PS No ego or emotion was created or destroyed in this post. At 10:52 PM 1/9/2008, Tim Bennett wrote: Jim Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to bury someone who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address. By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance of any competitor. I guess a key objective I left out was: Respect for the dignity of all participants. I also think ...maximizing available flying time during a contest... is better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J. After all, isn't that what it's about? Why not give bonus points for landing if they are within 2 seconds over the time. If they are short of 10 minutes then zero flight points. Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest. If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to get landing points either? BTW, DLG contests do MOM all the time. The thought pattern is TOTALLY different in DLG contests. There is a set task, either you make it or you don't. The only thing I constantly hear is how many points did you DROP, not how many points did you achieve. This is not basketball, it is more like Golf. The course is rated and you know the task (par value) and you are being measured on what you can or cannot achieve. Chris RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Actually you can do a lot better than par in golf. A better example is skeet or trap shooting. The task is 100 targets and you can't get more than 100. As Chris says - ya only got to count the ones you missed - and at the upper levels if that is 1 you can plan for your ride home... Ask me how I know... :) Jim Jim Monaco Rocky Mountain Soaring Association Denver, CO http://www.rmsadenver.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:25 PM To: RCSE (E-mail) Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J. After all, isn't that what it's about? Why not give bonus points for landing if they are within 2 seconds over the time. If they are short of 10 minutes then zero flight points. Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest. If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to get landing points either? BTW, DLG contests do MOM all the time. The thought pattern is TOTALLY different in DLG contests. There is a set task, either you make it or you don't. The only thing I constantly hear is how many points did you DROP, not how many points did you achieve. This is not basketball, it is more like Golf. The course is rated and you know the task (par value) and you are being measured on what you can or cannot achieve. Chris RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest Format
Original message: ...short of 10 minutes then zero flight points. Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest. If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to get landing points either? === Which suggests a slight variation on the 10-9-8 etc. scheme: Only the maxers or round-winners get to go on to the next round -- everybody else is eliminated. That would really move things along.
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
I think you meant zero the landing points, not the flight points. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J. After all, isn't that what it's about? Why not give bonus points for landing if they are within 2 seconds over the time. If they are short of 10 minutes then zero flight points. Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest. If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to get landing points either? BTW, DLG contests do MOM all the time. The thought pattern is TOTALLY different in DLG contests. There is a set task, either you make it or you don't. The only thing I constantly hear is how many points did you DROP, not how many points did you achieve. This is not basketball, it is more like Golf. The course is rated and you know the task (par value) and you are being measured on what you can or cannot achieve. Chris RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
I hope you meant zero the landing points, not flight points. Here on the east coast, and certainly at the NATs, there have been days where even the top guys will miss a flight. Zeroing a flight is ridiculous if you don't make the 10, because even those guys would miss. I assume you are talking west coast give me a thermal and I can't come down air. Not the variable stuff that the midwest and east coast can get. Start a day off with 5mph and get up to winds that knock over the Shitter.. Not everyone will make their time, including the leaders.They will/may drop them. Zeroing a flight... what if everyone zeros a flight? Zero the landing? Still not convinced... Why not just adopt the FAI standard? Why do we have to do it different then the rest of the world. Use the f3j format with winches,and the U.S. might wind up winning the worlds. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J. After all, isn't that what it's about? Why not give bonus points for landing if they are within 2 seconds over the time. If they are short of 10 minutes then zero flight points. Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest. If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to get landing points either? BTW, DLG contests do MOM all the time. The thought pattern is TOTALLY different in DLG contests. There is a set task, either you make it or you don't. The only thing I constantly hear is how many points did you DROP, not how many points did you achieve. This is not basketball, it is more like Golf. The course is rated and you know the task (par value) and you are being measured on what you can or cannot achieve. Chris RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest Format: Some personal experience
Kudos to Tim Bennett for coming up with a new variation on his contest format similar to one of his formats for HLG-size planes. I agree with Dave Register's comments (see below). I flew in one of Tim's Class-A Scramble events a couple of winters ago in Dallas (winter in Duluth, NICE in Dallas) and enjoyed it immensely. I later got the written contest rules and materials specifications from Tim, put together four Up-Starts, and we started these contests this past year in Minnesota, to the great enjoyment of the participants. Tim's format has all the good qualities mentioned by Tim and Dave. This winter at least a dozen of the MN soaring club members are building new 1.5 meter-or-less planes to be able to fly in the upcoming smaller plane events, after hearing about the very positive response to the contests we had this past year. I'd suggest not only trying Tim's new format for the larger planes, but also his similar, tried and true, format for the smaller ones. This may get to be as popular in Minnesota as it has been in Dallas. The pace is fast, there is a lot of laughter and camaraderie, exciting moments as two or more fliers battle it out in a weak thermal 20 feet off the ground then one plane lands a quarter of a second later than another, lots of appreciative banter, cheering. . . everyone likes it a lot and those who don't have the right planes for it decide on the spot to get one. It's about fun, and Tim's format is hard to beat for that. With bigger planes and their higher launch altitudes, the whole process will be more sedate, but it sounds to me like it would be fun in its own way because of the faster pace than usual in that category. Each kind of contest is fun and a challenge; Tim's suggestion is worth a try. A lot of clubs would like it a lot, I'll bet. Looks like Gordy thinks so, too (see below). I agree with Gordy, too. Al Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:34:43 -0600 From: David Register [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:Soaring@airage.com) Subject: Re: Contest Format Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Guys, I've flown a variant of Tim's proposal at SLNT on quite a few occasions in their Class-A Scramble event. It's a great task, gets the load off the CD and keeps pilots involved all the way through the event. Extending it to TD classes is a really interesting approach and addresses a lot of issues that can come up at club contests. I suspect the format works best for club events in the 8 to 20 range or thereabouts. Why don't some of the clubs give it a try for their monthly events and report back to RCSE or RCGroups? The rules may merit some tweaking but the best way to figure that is to give it a shot. The Class A format draws more entries each month at Dallas than just about anything else - and that's a pretty competitive group of guys. One of the things it DEFINITELY accomplishes is draw more club members into club activities. If you're in it for the group and not just for yourself, that's not a bad outcome. Way to go Tim! - Dave R Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:12:06 EST From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Soaring@airage.com Subject: The Problem of Tim's Contest Format Duh, I can't believe I have to post this :-) The biggest problem with Tim's Contest format is us all missing flying it. Gordy **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format: Some personal experience
It's only a faster pace (getting a chance to fly again, that is) for those pilots who don't/can't max. the task times, correct? If everyone is maxing the task times than it is no faster than the traditional MoM format if I am understanding these rules correctly. With bigger planes and their higher launch altitudes, the whole process will be more sedate, but it sounds to me like it would be fun in its own way because of the faster pace than usual in that category. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
This is Match play, just like they do in FF. You either max the time, or you are out! It does not matter what time you set, just that it has to be maxed. If you want to add difficulty, then just increase the flight time 1 or 2 minutes per round. We did a type of this contest in DLG at Visalia in 2006. I was CD. I had an airhorn. Everyone launched, and when 10 seconds had passed, the horn blew, and every pilot had to do a loop, then the first pilots down were eliminated. Next I made them do a loop at 10 second, then another at 30 seconds. It went on. Would you believe it that we got up to 4 loops then wait 20 seconds and then 4 more loops. Scoring was obvious, you made it or you didn't. The last round was tough as pilots pulled out with about 4 inches to spare. Original Message Subject: [RCSE] Contest Format From: tony estep [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, January 10, 2008 2:16 pm To: soaring@airage.com Original message: ...short of 10 minutes then zero flight points. Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest. If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to get landing points either? === Which suggests a slight variation on the 10-9-8 etc. scheme: Only the maxers or round-winners get to go on to the next round -- everybody else is eliminated. That would really move things along. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Nope, I MEAN no flight points because you never made the 10 minutes to be able to qualify for any sort of landing. Well..I guess it eliminated landing points too. Brutal! Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, January 10, 2008 2:23 pm To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: RCSE (E-mail) soaring@airage.com I think you meant zero the landing points, not the flight points. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J. After all, isn't that what it's about? Why not give bonus points for landing if they are within 2 seconds over the time. If they are short of 10 minutes then zero flight points. Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest. If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to get landing points either? BTW, DLG contests do MOM all the time. The thought pattern is TOTALLY different in DLG contests. There is a set task, either you make it or you don't. The only thing I constantly hear is how many points did you DROP, not how many points did you achieve. This is not basketball, it is more like Golf. The course is rated and you know the task (par value) and you are being measured on what you can or cannot achieve. Chris RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest Format
This topic always brings a chuckle to me. Larry's idea is the only one (other than rolling dice or cutting cards) that gives everyone an even chance to win with no regard for their skills or equipment. If that's what you're looking for, that's the way to go. But who's looking for that? I've been to contests for over 20 years, and the best pilots, with the best skills and equipment usually win, as they should. What would be the point of anything else? Does winning a contest by luck make anyone feel any better? I doubt it. The real benefit of contest flying (to me) is the comradery, the sport, the challenge, and the competition (the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat). I would never throw that away for a win of a luck driven contest. The pilots that are better than I (and there are many), challenge me and push me to fly better. I wouldn't have it any other way! Hank ** Henry P. Schorz Executive Vice President - Chief Scientist ACT Litigation Services 27200 Tourney Road Suite 450 Valencia, Ca 91355 PH: (661) 284-6401 x232 FX: (661) 284-7654 ** Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments may be legally privileged and confidential. If you are not an intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this e-mail or any attachment for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of the contents to any other person. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
[RCSE] Contest Format
This topic always brings a chuckle to me. Larry's idea is the only one (other than rolling dice or cutting cards) that gives everyone an even chance to win with no regard for their skills or equipment. If that's what you're looking for, that's the way to go. But who's looking for that? I've been to contests for over 20 years, and the best pilots, with the best skills and equipment usually win, as they should. What would be the point of anything else? Does winning a contest by luck make anyone feel any better? I doubt it. The real benefit of contest flying (to me) is the comradery, the sport, the challenge, and the competition (the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat). I would never throw that away for a win of a luck driven contest. The pilots that are better than I (and there are many), challenge me and push me to fly better. I wouldn't have it any other way! Hank ** Henry P. Schorz Executive Vice President - Chief Scientist ACT Litigation Services 27200 Tourney Road Suite 450 Valencia, Ca 91355 PH: (661) 284-6401 x232 FX: (661) 284-7654 ** Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments may be legally privileged and confidential. If you are not an intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and permanently delete the e-mail and any attachments immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this e-mail or any attachment for any purpose, nor disclose all or any part of the contents to any other person. Thank you in advance for your cooperation. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Jeff It is if you only go over the working time you get zero landing points and a 30 point penalty in F3J. Dr. Danny Williams D.C. Bad Roads bring good people and good roads bring bad people Colorado Springs, Colorado From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: RCSE (E-mail) soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format I think you meant zero the landing points, not the flight points. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J. After all, isn't that what it's about? Why not give bonus points for landing if they are within 2 seconds over the time. If they are short of 10 minutes then zero flight points.
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Ok, so what if no one makes the time. Does everyone get a zero. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nope, I MEAN no flight points because you never made the 10 minutes to be able to qualify for any sort of landing. Well..I guess it eliminated landing points too. Brutal! Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, January 10, 2008 2:23 pm To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: "RCSE (E-mail)" soaring@airage.com I think you meant zero the landing points, not the flight points. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J. After all, isn't that what it's about? Why not give bonus points for landing if they are within 2 seconds over the time. If they are short of 10 minutes then zero flight points. Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest. If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to get landing points either? BTW, DLG contests do MOM all the time. The thought pattern is TOTALLY different in DLG contests. There is a set task, either you make it or you don't. The only thing I constantly hear is how many points did you DROP, not how many points did you achieve. This is not basketball, it is more like Golf. The course is rated and you know the task (par value) and you are being measured on what you can or cannot achieve. Chris RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Hi gang, I just gotta chime in here. I know Tim and have flown with him and the rest of the SLNT crew as well as Tulsoar back in the day..I appreciate what Tim has thrown out here for us to chew on..no one has said that anyone should use this format in ALL contests, but it might be interesting to try it as Dave Register says...it's occasionally not a bad idea to level the field a little, especially if there are newcomers in a club that might benefit from a contest where they just might not get hammered to last place because they couldn't make the precision times, or they can't afford more than an OLY for the time being.they may be practicing, but they may also have a job and a family that they choose to spend time with that limits that practice time..but they still enjoy this wonderful hobby.so once in awhile run a contest where their choices of practice level or aircraft doesn't necessarily doom them to the bottom of the pile...no one enjoys coming in last or in the back of the pack every time.but some folks may not have access to the hardware, time and even patience to get to the level of the really good fliers.and this scoring system looks like it has that potentialI'm not saying let them win for the sake of winning, but you would be suprised just how much better a person might feel if he places in the middle of the pack instead of the bottom.it might even entice him to practice more...after that, then hammer them back into oblivion.. flame on!! Later.. ( Tim, I may see you guys Sunday) Kevin O'Dell On Jan 10, 2008, at 10:31 AM, Joe Rodriguez wrote: Tim, I see and understand where you are going, and respectfully disagree. I fly model sailplanes to compete and so a contest to me is a test of skills among peers. Like Golfing I work at every aspect of flying to improve my game in order to get that edge on the less skilled, the less prepared and the less knowledgeable. So for me when it all comes together for a win or high place, the taste of victory is sweet although brief is very addictive. This is what keeps me going I can fun fly anytime!! I look forward to a true contest of skills. To level the playing field and to reward players for not being prepared, less skilled or less practiced will give them a false sense of success. They will wonder why they got there A%$ handed to them when they attend a real contest, and who fault is that? smokinjoe
[RCSE] Contest Format
This past November, I was contest director for a monthly contest of the Soaring League of North Texas at which I tried out a new format for Man-on-Man competition. It was well received. The format addresses a few of my pet peeves about soaring contests. I offer this description in the hopes that readers of the exchange may be interested. First, a few comments about my objectives: Fast paced contest. Scoring and judging must be easy and quick. Minimal luck factor. Everyone has a chance to succeed on each flight. A blown flight does not end your day. A blown landing does not end your day. No dropped rounds; all flights count. Emphasis on flying and consistency. A contest not won in the air, cannot be won in the landing circle. No sandbagging or air poaching. The format is seeded Man-on-Man, which addresses several of the objectives on its own. The task is duration; not precision. Scoring is based on points awarded for landing order, last down wins. Landing scores are for breaking ties only. Five winches were set up to launch flight groups of up to four flyers. The usual Man-on-Man procedures regarding pop-offs and line breaks are used. Winds were fifteen gusting to twenty-five MPH. The time target was set at nine minutes. Only one max flight was achieved. Lower winds would call for longer target times, but they need not be impossible, just challenging, for the format to be valid. Scoring is based on a ten (10) point scale. The last one down and everyone who achieves the target max gets first place in the flight group and scores ten (10) points. Second place gets nine (9) points, third place gets eight (8) points, and fourth place gets seven (7) points. If there are three making the max, the fourth flyer gets seven (7) points. If there are two making the max the other two get eight (8) and seven (7), respectively. In flight groups of three the lowest score is eight (8) and the lowest score in groups of two is nine (9) points. No groups of less than two are flown, except if someone scratches between rounds. A maximum of thirty seconds to land after the target is allowed or the flight is considered off field. Off field landings score last place points and all other flyers in the flight group move up a place if the off field flyer lands after them. You cannot beat anybody by landing off field no matter how long you flew. If two flyers get the same time, less than the target, they each get the points for the place they tied for. For example, if they tied for first, they get ten (10) points each, if for second, nine (9) points, etc. Landing points have no role in determining the outcome of individual rounds. Landing points are recorded and used to break ties in the final standings. If somebody does not score as well as you in the air, he cannot beat you with landing points. Landing points are also used to determine seeding and winch choice. The flyer with the higher landing points, if tied for last position in a flight group, gets the advantage of flying in the next lower scoring flight group. Winch choice, which is based on seeding, is resolved among tied contestants by landing scores. Coin flips and fist fights are secondary tie breakers in such cases, based on mutual agreement of the tied flyers. The pace of the contest is improved because once there is only one in the air, there is no value in continuing to fly so the winner lands and the next group can fly. No burying the group while everyone waits. Timers are required to communicate about the time to beat. Scoring is second grade arithmetic; could not be simpler or quicker. No waiting around to figure the seeding. Larger flight groups can be flown, but to keep everyone in the game, scores lower than seven (7) are not recommended. Small flight groups give more contestants a chance to succeed even if they do not win overall. This keeps interest and enjoyment up. This must be balanced against the time needed to fly a round. The more rounds the better. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
At 02:40 PM 1/9/2008, Tim Bennett wrote: The pace of the contest is improved because once there is only one in the air, there is no value in continuing to fly so the winner lands and the next group can fly. No burying the group while everyone waits. Timers are required to communicate about the time to beat. Scoring is second grade arithmetic; could not be simpler or quicker. No waiting around to figure the seeding. Interesting twist on seeded MoM. But one of the things I always enjoyed in this contest format was getting a good burial in a contest. Getting away on a good group of pilots and getting a max when the others couldn't make it happen. It keeps some strategy in the game keeping an eye on other good pilots and not letting them break away on the pack. Flying it out with all eyes upon you, and hitting that landing with everyone watching is a LOT of fun. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
At 06:29 PM 1/9/2008, you wrote: Interesting twist on seeded MoM. But one of the things I always enjoyed in this contest format was getting a good burial in a contest. Jim This is the thing I hate most about MOM. I never liked the idea of shafting a fellow competitor. It always seemed to me to be unethical. The other thing I don't like about seeded MOM is normalizing the scores. The idea of giving one man 1000 points for a flight while giving another flier half as many points for flying twice as long in a different group is morally wrong. I have seen this happen. In seeded MOM, normalizing isn't needed. That's already done by making you fly against your peers. Normalizing may be more beneficial when seeding isn't possible. Chuck Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. At 07:16 PM 1/9/2008, Chuck Anderson wrote: I never liked the idea of shafting a fellow competitor. It always seemed to me to be unethical. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Jim Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to bury someone who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address. By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance of any competitor. I guess a key objective I left out was: Respect for the dignity of all participants. I also think ...maximizing available flying time during a contest... is better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Absolutely... I agree with Jim. Throwing dirt their way or being buried is part of the sport. What if you didn't have man on man, the results would be the same anyway. I'm not sure I understand why you would bring the pilots down early. You actually compress the groups scores. James V. Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. At 07:16 PM 1/9/2008, Chuck Anderson wrote: I never liked the idea of shafting a fellow competitor. It always seemed to me to be unethical. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Well Tim, you just lost me with your last comments. I guess the home town crowd has gotten soft in Texas (was raised in Arlington). Here in OVSS land you live and die to get the low save, downwind escape, faint read that no one else gets. We are flying 6 to 7 rounds a day of 10-13 minute flights at most of our contests, so we fly alot, and the guy who gets that fantastic flight is held up as the hero, not the zero. With our seeding, it is like watching golf, the last group is the big boys and literally, everyone watches and enjoys the battle. I wish we could seed out the Nats, but just too big to make the time work. This sounds way to politically correct for me, we do not fly outcome based soaring here. Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do this at TNT when I finally get to come back. Marc ---BeginMessage--- Jim Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to bury someone who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address. By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance of any competitor. I guess a key objective I left out was: Respect for the dignity of all participants. I also think ...maximizing available flying time during a contest... is better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format ---End Message---
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Tim, I appreciate all the thought you've put into the format. I'd side with Jim, however, on flying out the time. If someone puts the hurt on me I'm not mad at that person. I'm mad at myself for not hooking into that air. I don't think sportsmanship really comes into play. I've had the hurt put on me and then have the same guy come over and help with a broken wing rib or bad battery lead. That's sportsmanship. I also like to see when a beginning pilot sneaks out on their own ride while the experts are way off downwind and scratching. Nothing builds up your ego quicker when you're starting out than to have an expert pilot come poach some air you've been working. Your suggestion of coming down does move things along, but when the group is on the ground at 5 minutes and I've taken a big risk being off by myself and have a done a good job of working it, I don't think my effort should be worth just a single point more than one of the 5 minute guys. No matter what the format, it sure beats work :-) JE -- John Erickson LSF V #122 From: Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:52:53 -0600 To: soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format Jim Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to bury someone who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address. By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance of any competitor. I guess a key objective I left out was: Respect for the dignity of all participants. I also think ...maximizing available flying time during a contest... is better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest format
Original message: Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do this at TNT... === Marc is right on. At a real contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air and gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to earn low scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there and they blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their failure is better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort of like allowing free popoffs.
Re: [RCSE] Contest format
Maybe we should just do politically correct soaring contests and not keep score, like many kids sports programs these days. We wouldn't want to hurt any ones feelings, now would we? On Jan 9, 2008 10:53 PM, tony estep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Original message: Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do this at TNT... === Marc is right on. At a real contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air and gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to earn low scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there and they blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their failure is better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort of like allowing free popoffs. -- Steve Schneider Buffalo Grove, IL SOAR Club
RE: [RCSE] Contest format
There is some validity to your point about penalizing the 6 except that in a real contest, 9 points or less out of ten, which corresponds to 900 or less out of 1000, is a low score. Once the issue is decided lets start the next flight group. -Original Message- From: tony estep [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 10:53 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] Contest format Original message: Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do this at TNT... === Marc is right on. At a real contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air and gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to earn low scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there and they blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their failure is better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort of like allowing free popoffs.
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Why don't we just award everybody a first place sticker and a cool ride in the special bus just for entering the joy luck club contest. sj - Original Message - From: Tim Bennettmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.commailto:soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:52 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format Jim Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to bury someone who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address. By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance of any competitor. I guess a key objective I left out was: Respect for the dignity of all participants. I also think ...maximizing available flying time during a contest... is better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]. Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Tim, Thanks for bringing some new ideas concepts to our beloved sport. I don't agree with everything you said, but you presented your case well. Open dialog without egos and emotion based responses will do us all well. Jon Stone PS. Yeah, I know egos and emotion based responses are par for the course on RCSE. :) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Joe, What a great idea :-) That's right up their with my My child was prisoner of the month Bumper Sticker... Craig Joe Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Why dont we just award everybody a first place sticker and a cool ride in the special bus just for entering the joy luck club contest. sj -
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock, determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off. Just jumping in and pokin some fun. Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-) Darylperkins.com LLC. 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 www.darylperkins.com Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format From: Craig Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, January 09, 2008 10:18 pm To: Joe Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED], soaring@airage.com soaring@airage.com Joe, What a great idea :-) That's right up their with my My child was prisoner of the month Bumper Sticker... Craig Joe Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Why don't we just award everybody a first place sticker and a cool ride in the special bus just for entering the joy luck club contest. sj - RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
I have a friend who once bet a guy he could run a mile in four minutes. Thinking himself no fool, the guy took the bet and made a date to meet at the high school track the next morning. Once on the track the guy said Ready, Go. and started the watch. My friend stood there looking at him. The guy said, What are you doing? My friend said, Let me know when it's four minutes and I will run the mile as I said. The guy laughed, OK you got me, I'll pay you, but at four minutes you better run the whole mile. My friend almost died. He hadn't run that far in years. It is all in the format of the contest. Tim -Original Message- From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:27 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock, determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off. Just jumping in and pokin some fun. Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-) Darylperkins.com LLC. 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 www.darylperkins.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
I'd pay to see Daryl try and run a mile!! Sorry, D ... couldn't resist. Mark Sent via IPhone On Jan 9, 2008, at 9:47 PM, Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a friend who once bet a guy he could run a mile in four minutes. Thinking himself no fool, the guy took the bet and made a date to meet at the high school track the next morning. Once on the track the guy said Ready, Go. and started the watch. My friend stood there looking at him. The guy said, What are you doing? My friend said, Let me know when it's four minutes and I will run the mile as I said. The guy laughed, OK you got me, I'll pay you, but at four minutes you better run the whole mile. My friend almost died. He hadn't run that far in years. It is all in the format of the contest. Tim -Original Message- From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:27 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock, determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off. Just jumping in and pokin some fun. Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-) Darylperkins.com LLC. 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 www.darylperkins.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to soaring- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Marc, Thanks for the comments. In answer to your questions, we have only tried this once, but we have been doing something similar for years for class A sailplanes using upstarts with scoring on a four point scale. We use head-to-head results rather than landings for tie breaking and rarely have to go beyond that. In really good weather, this contest format becomes a landing contest at the top just like any TD contest. The difference is that there is more emphasis on consistent flying than on times less than max. The course granularity of the scoring separates the competitors pretty quickly so you end up with a group with all tens and the rest pretty spread out. The landings decide the issue for those with the tens and any other ties as well. The one time we did it one guy had all tens and there were only two other ties. We didn't get in very many rounds, though. -Original Message- From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:11 PM To: Tim Bennett Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format Tim, Good idea, and you had the perfect conditions for this format of MOM, but would this have worked so well if the conditions were near perfect? I realize that you can break ties and such, but in the summer up here, even doing seeded MOM in our normal fashion, after six to eight rounds we will have the top five in a twenty point spread sometimes. I would think that this would get so tight that you would have a knot at the top so close that it might not break. Have you done it when it was nmicer or was this your first time out? Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest Results
The results and photo's are posted on the S3 web site http://www.sierrasilentsoarers.com/Lee Cox CDLeeCox-Nevada, U.S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
[RCSE] Contest Daniel Boone Homestead Reading PA
While the EAST COAST gets socked in with Rain many of you are probably getting grumpy pilot syndrome. GPS can affect all of us. Go register for the Daniel Boone contest On July 8th. You need it.. See: http://www.flyesl.com/calendar.asp Now go register. -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest scoring computer .. help
At 08:40 AM 11/9/2005, Eddie Smith wrote: Hi again ... I meant to add that the computer is being sold by someone inWaukesha, WI where ever that is??? Eddie Western Suburb of Milwaukee Wisconsin, USA. Milwaukee, Gordy's home town. Everyone knows Gordy. :-) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest scoring computer ...help
Guys I run a Tandy model 100 for scoring thermal contests, I have a quite good programme for this computer written in Tandy basic.There are a couple of keys just starting to occasionally miss making contact and I have been thinking of upgrading to a Tandy model 200 as I wish to continue to use the existing software. I've been looking on ebay and none are available in Australia. S .. I'm going to have to try to buy one of two that are coming up for sale in the US.The first one is available for international shipping but the other one (the better of the two) is only available for delivery to the USA through the post and is coming up for sale in three days. The question is ... is there anyone on this list that would be willing let me use their US delivery address and then re-post it on to me. It would probably be easier if I could send you money through PayPal but I can always arrange for a bank check to be sent to you. I wouldn't expect you to do this for nothing and would be willing to throw in a few extra dollars for your inconvenience. Eddie the Eagle in sunny South Australia (although it's been pouring for the past week) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest scoring computer .. help
Hi again ... I meant to add that the computer is being sold by someone inWaukesha, WI where ever that is??? Eddie RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest scoring computer ...help
At 01:30 11/11/2005 +, you wrote: You have GOT to be KIDDING! You can't really be using a 20 year old computer Well maybe if you are running Nostalgia contests and you really want to add the right atmosphere!. Radian Ha Haa .. Eddie RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest scoring computer ...help
At 15:41 10/11/2005 -0800, you wrote: Do you have the source code for the program? I'm sure a programmer could port it to something more Windows compatible. I've already written it for a windows machine but I just prefer to stay with the Tandy. Has any one on RCSE got a model 200 that they are willing to sell ?? Eddie the Eagle RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest scoring computer ...help
At 03:32 11/11/2005 +, you wrote: I do not have a Tandy 200. (But I do have a couple of TRS 80s.) :-) How can I help? Regis in S. MD, usa For all you guys that have replied to help me in my quest I thank you I managed to win a model 200 on ebay that will post directly to Australia so problem solved. Eddie the Eagle in Now sunny South Australia RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest Updates on LASS Guys
Tony is flying the OVSS final event for the year at Muncie Indiana, AMA HQ site. He managed to take wood yesterday flying a Tom Finch Vandal in unlimited as a Sportsman, pretty good considering he started this season crashing Spirits! Ed Wilson (LSF5 and past LSF VP)and his son Ben Wilson (not really his son, actually our Website Master, and another wood master sportsman for Louisville, Ben took wood at the DLG National this year, he's been mentored by Bruce Davidsion and has taken wood in RES at the Mid American Championships, Lexington) ...anyway, they are heading toward the final OVSS day of soaring in Muncie to save two other guys from having to carry wood home :-) Me? My hopes and dreams of glory have been reduced to hopes and dreams of just making it thru the rounds today in VisaliaI'm in good company so big smiles all around! See you all tonite with more news! Gordy
[RCSE] Contest Announcement: 2005 Texas National Tournament, TNT 2005
The Soaring League of North Texas is hosting the 21st annual Texas National Tournament, TNT 2005. The event will be held at the world famous Southfork Ranch on the north side of Dallas on October 7-8-9. Contests are as follow: Friday, October 7: Hand Launch and RES Saturday, October 8: Unlimited Sailplane Sunday, October 9: Unlimited Sailplane Complete information including entry form may be obtained at http://www.slnt.org/TNT%202005/2005%20TNT%20Complete%20Package.pdf Please note that pre-registration by September 28 is highly recommended as the entries per frequency will be limited to make the event flow smother for the contestants. Please direct inquries to: Henry Bostick, Contest Director email address [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest Grand Rapids, MI July 9-10
Two Meter, Unlimited, RES, Nostalgia Link: http://www.rcsoaring.org/contests/RC_Soaring_contest_dual_soar-in.asp Food on site Camping on site F5J demo Park Flying afterward Michigan Soaring League #3 Good Winches Start time 10 AM 29th Annual Event TWO DAY Club Team Awards Two man teams from same AMA club. Top scores for each day added no matter what class. Cal PosthumaLSF VVPersonal Web Pagehttp://www.altelco.net/~calplsf/index.htmlHome of Solenoid LED's
Re: [RCSE] Contest Grand Rapids, MI July 9-10
You forgot about HL. :-) At 06:07 AM 7/7/2005, Cal Posthuma wrote: Two Meter, Unlimited, RES, Nostalgia Link: http://www.rcsoaring.org/contests/RC_Soaring_contest_dual_soar-in.asp Food on site Camping on site F5J demo Park Flying afterward Michigan Soaring League #3 Good Winches Start time 10 AM 29th Annual Event TWO DAY Club Team Awards Two man teams from same AMA club. Top scores for each day added no matter what class. Cal Posthuma LSF VV Personal Web Page http://www.altelco.net/~calplsf/index.html Home of Solenoid LED's
Re: [RCSE] Contest Grand Rapids, MI July 9-10
I have been bugging these guys to get more into HLG lately. :-) Last night at the field we were discussing having an HLG contest. How much interest would there be? Dennis Hoyle WMSS AMA 11952 LSF II Sec / Treasurer / Web Geek - Original Message - From: Steve Meyer To: Cal Posthuma [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: soaring@airage.com Sent: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 06:40:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Grand Rapids, MI July 9-10 You forgot about HL. :-) At 06:07 AM 7/7/2005, Cal Posthuma wrote: Two Meter, Unlimited, RES, Nostalgia Link: http://www.rcsoaring.org/contests/RC_Soaring_contest_dual_soar-in.asphttp://www.rcsoaring.org/con tests/RC_Soaring_contest_dual_soar-in.asp Food on site Camping on site F5J demo Park Flying afterward Michigan Soaring League #3 Good Winches Start time 10 AM 29th Annual Event TWO DAY Club Team Awards Two man teams from same AMA club. Top scores for each day added no matter what class. Cal Posthuma LSF VV Personal Web Page http://www.altelco.net/~calplsf/index.htmlhttp://www.altelco.net/~calplsf/index.html Home of Solenoid LED's
RE: [RCSE] Contest Cosmo WAS: JR Aero tow Reply
Michael: You are certainly right about the fact that we do have some of the not great weather, which is why I put (relatively speaking) behind the great weather statement. So here is a clue direct from the weatherman...San Diego does have some hot and humid days, with an (very) occasional thunderstorm in the months of late July and August. And it has a rainy season during the first three months of the year. Hey, Michael...365 days of the same weather would be like being in Seattle:) P.S. We love those guys from the SASS group. They are our most dedicated group from outside California. So here is a clue of when to come to San Diego...the first full weekend in June. Oh! And while you are here, bring a HLG and have a great time competing in the IHLGF -- the most fun and flying time you can have in R/C Soaring. Ron Ron Scharck, Registrar IHLGF 2005 6005 Hidden Valley Road, Ste. 200 San Diego, CA 92009 Direct - 760-496-7987 E-mail - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Michael Lachowski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 7:04 PM To: Ron Scharck Cc: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Cosmo WAS: JR Aero tow Reply One other thing Ron. You do a good job of promoting the event. And the Nats suffers from just the opposite on the weather. There were many years when soaring was stuck in the last week of July. By the last week in July, Muncie is usually hot and humid. Of course, every time I have been to San Diego, I have managed to get some of the not great weather. It's just not right to get hot and humid and thunderstorms in San Diego. Ron Scharck wrote: Steve: It really isn't fair to compare the NATS HLG event to the IHLGF. They are two entirely different cats. I use to attend the NATS on a regular basis, competing in most of the events, and I loved every single one of them. The LSF guys do a great job (in cooperation with AMA) of putting on a host of soaring events, most of which are very demanding from a personnel standpoint; and they only have a week to in which to cram all those events. I know that I am not telling you, or anyone else who reads this and has actually been to the Soaring NATS, anything new. In real estate, something I have a passing knowledge of, the three key words are: LOCATION! LOCATION! LOCATION! The IHLGF has that in spades. When someone plans to come to the IHLGF, they can be assured of four things which few other locations can boast...and they all have to do with being located in Southern California: 1. Great weather, relatively speaking; 2. Great flying conditions (if you don't mind a dirt field); 3. A large contingent of very talented pilots; and, 4. One of the top tourist destinations in the world. In all of the years (12) the IHLGF has been held, there has only been two delays of starting the contest on time. Both had to do with an early morning misting. There has always been 6 rounds flown on Saturday and seven (including the fly-offs) rounds flown on Sunday. Those are the basic reasons why the IHLGF has been able to be as successful as it has been. Just the dumb luck of being in the right place at the right time! Ron Ron Scharck, Registrar IHLGF 2005 6005 Hidden Valley Road, Ste. 200 San Diego, CA 92009 Direct - 760-496-7987 E-mail - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Steve Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 6:59 PM To: Ron Scharck Cc: Lex Mierop; 'James V. Bacus'; soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] Contest Cosmo WAS: JR Aero tow Reply The sad part is, the NATS will be lucky to get 22 from not much more than 9 states for HLG. Steve SOAR LSF IV At 08:44 PM 6/8/2005, Ron Scharck wrote: Lex: You left out a couple of countries that added to the cosmopolitan atmosphere of the IHLGF; France and Taiwan. Altogether we had 94 registered pilots at the IHLGF 2005 representing seven countries and 15 states. Not bad for a hand launch glider contest. We will get ol' Jim down here one of these days:) Ron -Original Message- From: Lex Mierop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 3:52 PM To: 'James V. Bacus'; soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] JR Aero tow Reply Shows that you've never been to the IHLGF. We had Englanders and Brazilians, Japanese Kiwis. Also Yankees, Good ol' Southern Boys, Texans, Midwesterners and them funny guys from north of here that don't seem to know what that big yellow thing is in the sky... :-) :-) :-) -l -Original Message- From: James V. Bacus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 1:57 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] JR Aero tow Reply Nice write up Jack, there was a guy from Canada as well. And of course the two guys from Japan doing the video show. I would say it was the most cosmopolitan event I have ever been to. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R
Re: [RCSE] Contest Cosmo WAS: JR Aero tow Reply
Steve, In my opinion the low attendance for the NATS HL is not because of location. It is mostly because it is a one day event. HL is quite a bit different than the other soaring classes in that it does not have as much cross over. Most people in this country are resource limited. They have a limited amount of time or money to devote to RC soaring. So, they have to pick one event and for many it is HL. For example, in the ESL's HL division this year I expect there to be upwards of 50 participants. Of those 50, I estimate that 30 or more are primarily focused on HL. Some will come from as far away as Canada, Florida, and Kentucky to participate. All of the HL contests in the ESL are 2 days which makes it worth the trip. I believe the same trend is true in other parts of the country. I know that there is a group in the North West that only flies HL (where DLG started). So, for these HL dedicated pilots, it is not worth it for them to travel to the NATS for a one day event. I know that if HL was all I flew, I certainly would not drive 7 hours for a one day contest. I would gladly drive the 7 hours for a well run two day contest (after all, I recently got back from flying across the country for a two day HL contest). From what I have observed at HL contests I believe that other HL competitors would make the same judgment. It is unfortunate that the LSF has elected to only have a one day HL event at the NATS. I estimate that if it was two day event, there would be on the order of at least 50 entrants. The LSF would benefit from the increased revenue. There would possibly be the added benefit of generating interest in HL fliers with the other soaring disciplines. I can easily picture some of the HL pilots sticking around to watch F3J and getting hooked. After all in this country there are not many opportunities to see an F3J event. That was one aspect I really enjoyed about the old NATS format (not that I think we should go back - the LSF format is s much better with regards to soaring) - seeing all the other modeling disciplines. CL combat was my favorite. . . For what its worth Tom RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Cosmo WAS: JR Aero tow Reply
Actually what I wanted to do was go to the JR Aero tow. I had the joy of being on Jury Duty the past two weeks. Fortunately I had vacation plans for the Nats and F3j TS so when they asked if there would be any hardship on serving on a case that was expected to run well into August, 4 days a week, soaring saved the day! Hopefully I'll make the Aerotow next year. I have the 1:2.9 Foka that I just don't get enough flying on and a 1:3 Salto and 1:4 B4 that also need some flying time. Ron Scharck wrote: Michael: So here is a clue of when to come to San Diego...the first full weekend in June. Oh! And while you are here, bring a HLG and have a great time competing in the IHLGF -- the most fun and flying time you can have in R/C Soaring. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Cosmo WAS: JR Aero tow Reply
Steve: It really isn't fair to compare the NATS HLG event to the IHLGF. They are two entirely different cats. I use to attend the NATS on a regular basis, competing in most of the events, and I loved every single one of them. The LSF guys do a great job (in cooperation with AMA) of putting on a host of soaring events, most of which are very demanding from a personnel standpoint; and they only have a week to in which to cram all those events. I know that I am not telling you, or anyone else who reads this and has actually been to the Soaring NATS, anything new. In real estate, something I have a passing knowledge of, the three key words are: LOCATION! LOCATION! LOCATION! The IHLGF has that in spades. When someone plans to come to the IHLGF, they can be assured of four things which few other locations can boast...and they all have to do with being located in Southern California: 1. Great weather, relatively speaking; 2. Great flying conditions (if you don't mind a dirt field); 3. A large contingent of very talented pilots; and, 4. One of the top tourist destinations in the world. In all of the years (12) the IHLGF has been held, there has only been two delays of starting the contest on time. Both had to do with an early morning misting. There has always been 6 rounds flown on Saturday and seven (including the fly-offs) rounds flown on Sunday. Those are the basic reasons why the IHLGF has been able to be as successful as it has been. Just the dumb luck of being in the right place at the right time! Ron Ron Scharck, Registrar IHLGF 2005 6005 Hidden Valley Road, Ste. 200 San Diego, CA 92009 Direct - 760-496-7987 E-mail - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Steve Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 6:59 PM To: Ron Scharck Cc: Lex Mierop; 'James V. Bacus'; soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] Contest Cosmo WAS: JR Aero tow Reply The sad part is, the NATS will be lucky to get 22 from not much more than 9 states for HLG. Steve SOAR LSF IV At 08:44 PM 6/8/2005, Ron Scharck wrote: Lex: You left out a couple of countries that added to the cosmopolitan atmosphere of the IHLGF; France and Taiwan. Altogether we had 94 registered pilots at the IHLGF 2005 representing seven countries and 15 states. Not bad for a hand launch glider contest. We will get ol' Jim down here one of these days:) Ron -Original Message- From: Lex Mierop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 3:52 PM To: 'James V. Bacus'; soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] JR Aero tow Reply Shows that you've never been to the IHLGF. We had Englanders and Brazilians, Japanese Kiwis. Also Yankees, Good ol' Southern Boys, Texans, Midwesterners and them funny guys from north of here that don't seem to know what that big yellow thing is in the sky... :-) :-) :-) -l -Original Message- From: James V. Bacus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 1:57 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] JR Aero tow Reply Nice write up Jack, there was a guy from Canada as well. And of course the two guys from Japan doing the video show. I would say it was the most cosmopolitan event I have ever been to. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Cosmo WAS: JR Aero tow Reply
One other thing Ron. You do a good job of promoting the event. And the Nats suffers from just the opposite on the weather. There were many years when soaring was stuck in the last week of July. By the last week in July, Muncie is usually hot and humid. Of course, every time I have been to San Diego, I have managed to get some of the not great weather. It's just not right to get hot and humid and thunderstorms in San Diego. Ron Scharck wrote: Steve: It really isn't fair to compare the NATS HLG event to the IHLGF. They are two entirely different cats. I use to attend the NATS on a regular basis, competing in most of the events, and I loved every single one of them. The LSF guys do a great job (in cooperation with AMA) of putting on a host of soaring events, most of which are very demanding from a personnel standpoint; and they only have a week to in which to cram all those events. I know that I am not telling you, or anyone else who reads this and has actually been to the Soaring NATS, anything new. In real estate, something I have a passing knowledge of, the three key words are: LOCATION! LOCATION! LOCATION! The IHLGF has that in spades. When someone plans to come to the IHLGF, they can be assured of four things which few other locations can boast...and they all have to do with being located in Southern California: 1. Great weather, relatively speaking; 2. Great flying conditions (if you don't mind a dirt field); 3. A large contingent of very talented pilots; and, 4. One of the top tourist destinations in the world. In all of the years (12) the IHLGF has been held, there has only been two delays of starting the contest on time. Both had to do with an early morning misting. There has always been 6 rounds flown on Saturday and seven (including the fly-offs) rounds flown on Sunday. Those are the basic reasons why the IHLGF has been able to be as successful as it has been. Just the dumb luck of being in the right place at the right time! Ron Ron Scharck, Registrar IHLGF 2005 6005 Hidden Valley Road, Ste. 200 San Diego, CA 92009 Direct - 760-496-7987 E-mail - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Steve Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 6:59 PM To: Ron Scharck Cc: Lex Mierop; 'James V. Bacus'; soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] Contest Cosmo WAS: JR Aero tow Reply The sad part is, the NATS will be lucky to get 22 from not much more than 9 states for HLG. Steve SOAR LSF IV At 08:44 PM 6/8/2005, Ron Scharck wrote: Lex: You left out a couple of countries that added to the cosmopolitan atmosphere of the IHLGF; France and Taiwan. Altogether we had 94 registered pilots at the IHLGF 2005 representing seven countries and 15 states. Not bad for a hand launch glider contest. We will get ol' Jim down here one of these days:) Ron -Original Message- From: Lex Mierop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 3:52 PM To: 'James V. Bacus'; soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] JR Aero tow Reply Shows that you've never been to the IHLGF. We had Englanders and Brazilians, Japanese Kiwis. Also Yankees, Good ol' Southern Boys, Texans, Midwesterners and them funny guys from north of here that don't seem to know what that big yellow thing is in the sky... :-) :-) :-) -l -Original Message- From: James V. Bacus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 1:57 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] JR Aero tow Reply Nice write up Jack, there was a guy from Canada as well. And of course the two guys from Japan doing the video show. I would say it was the most cosmopolitan event I have ever been to. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format . RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
