Boiler commentary
Since we're in a lull in the action, I've had some concerns about some things I've lately seen in print on boilers, specifically testing pressures, and my concern is that very misleading messages are being sent by this and those who don't know better will take this to be good practice, or worse yet required practice, and begin spreading misinformation, possibly causing someone else who doesn't know better and follows the misinformation to damage an otherwise perfectly good boiler. What has caused my concern is the recent article in SitG wherein it is stated that Torry Krutzke's Pikes Peak Loco K-loco retrofit boilers are hydro-tested to 220psi, with fittings in place no less, and along the same lines that Accucraft supposedly tests Ruby boilers to 160psi. It almost seems to me that in Ga1 live steam these days there are a few things, and a few people, who subscribe to the If a little is good then a lot more is a lot better school of thought. This is unecessary, and mis-guided. This should not be taken as a criticism of Pikes Peak or Accucraft, they are entitled to test to whatever pressures they see fit, and they may very well have good reason for doing what they do, although I can't think of a single one. The reason for my comments is to counteract any tendency there might be in the wake of this for people in Ga1 live steam to begin saying that hydro-testing to a high multiple (250% to 400%) of WP (working pressure) is now in some way a requirement or a good thing. It is not and should not be. The universally accepted, and in some cases regulated, test pressures for miniature copper boilers are 2 X WP (200%) for the initial (new) test and 1.5 X WP (150%) for all subsequent tests. Thus for a boiler intended to operate at a nominal 40psi, the new (1st time) test pressure should be done at 80psi and subsequent tests should be done to 60psi. These are neither minimum nor maximum pressures but are target pressures, but in any case there is no compelling reason to take test pressure substantially beyond this, certainly not to 300% or 400%. The other thing that I see, in ALL gauges of live steam, is the practice of hydro testing a boiler with the fittings in place. A hydro test is not intended to test fittings nor are fittings intended to withstand hydro-test pressures. One does a hydro test to determine the soundness of the boiler structural envelope and one weep or leak at a fitting renders any hydro test of the shell inconclusive, at least for the purpose of a hydro test in the first place. I know that this won't prevent people from hydro-testing with the fittings in place, because I know how much extra work is involved in stripping a boiler down and plugging the holes with solid threaded plugs for a test, but the record should show, and the general Ga1 population should know, what the correct procedure is in case they decide to use it. Regards, Harry Wade Nashville Tennessee
Re: Boiler commentary
Hi Harry I could not agree more. Even elastic will only stretch to a certain point to return to its original length one over stretched it is always to slack. I remember the classic Cockenzie boiler test in Scotland a number of years ago I think the plate was 8 inch thick if my memory serves me right. The boiler had been tested if I recall 8 times!! The insurance officer did not believe Lloyds etc and insisted seeing the needle on the pin. This time the boiler blew. This was put down to brittle fracture. It had been ultrasonic and radiographically examined but no significant defects had been found. The cockenzie report is of course classic literature. Back to our little kettles, the hydraulic tests are carried out cold, the boiler is run hot. It is usual to examine a vessel before and after the test. This is to ensure that any defects which the test possibly caused or brought to notice can be found before putting the device into service. Over high test pressures can cause considerable damage when the device is put into service. A silver soldered joint is not welded and stress relieved. Who carries out a radiographic examination before and after on our little kettles??. Who has proven gauges? who uses at least two of them for the test? etc etc. I agree fully with you Harry. test to sensible pressures. unless the state requires more. Bert - Bert Edmunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Boiler commentary
I think that there are possibly three reasons that the units are tested to such pressures that don't necessarily have any metallurgical bearing: 1) Users may have a tendency to raise the pressure setting on their pressure relief valves above what the factory intends. Since the majority of prv's are not staked or tagged like their full sized brethren, this is easy to do. A number of safety valves from Accucraft do not have an inherent adjustability like the small valves similar to the type that Aster uses. So people put shims in them to raise the spring pressure, or stretch the spring. In normal applications of pressure relief valves, if you pull the wire and tag off, your insurance is NULL. Since our units aren't directly subject to insurance or regulatory inspections. 2) Pressure gauges are not normally checked for accuracy in the US. I have not run across any mention of gauge checking being available at any steam meet. The cost of a master gauge traceable to NIST is about the cost of a Ruby. The cost of one of those calibrated piston pressure generators for gauge testing is much higher. (Don't reply about them being easy to make, I am talking about one that is NIST traceable). Also there would be the cost of recertification of the equipment every year, and liability insurance for providing the service. 3. CYA and government regulations. The latest Accucraft boilers are coming with a boiler certificate for satisfaction of European regulations. This requirement has been discussed somewhere in cyber space more than a few times. Mike Eorgoff
RE: Boiler commentary
At 12:09 PM 3/14/05 -0600, you wrote: 1) Users may have a tendency to raise the pressure setting on their pressure relief valves above what the factory intends. A bad habit to get into, but even so this cannot justify a test standard of 300% of WP. 2) Pressure gauges are not normally checked for accuracy in the US. So let's say a guage is out by 25% under-pressure, which in my experience would be an extreme case, producing a PSIG (gauge reading) of 40psi when in fact the actual pressure is 50psi . . . . for that we need to test to 160psi, 300%+ of actual WP? 3. CYA and government regulations. What regulations Accucraft or any other mfg must comply with, or chooses to comply with, are not my concern and are not the subject of my post. My concern is that that many rank file Ga1 live steamers in the U.S., in particular newcomers to live steam, will see those test figures and get the notion that these are, or should be, recommended or standard practice when in fact they are just as likely to be harmful. Regards, Harry
RE: Boiler commentary
Excellent commentary Harry. Much needed. If you would post (perhaps you already have) the the MLS and STIG sites, this would really get your words out. Whether or not they are heeded is another matter, but you got the word out and that is what is improtant. Noel Original Message Follows From: Harry Wade [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: sslivesteam@colegroup.com To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam sslivesteam@colegroup.com Subject: Boiler commentary Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:54:07 -0600 Since we're in a lull in the action, I've had some concerns about some things I've lately seen in print on boilers, specifically testing pressures, and my concern is that very misleading messages are being sent by this and those who don't know better will take this to be good practice, or worse yet "required" practice, and begin spreading misinformation, possibly causing someone else who doesn't know better and follows the misinformation to damage an otherwise perfectly good boiler. What has caused my concern is the recent article in SitG wherein it is stated that Torry Krutzke's Pikes Peak Loco K-loco retrofit boilers are hydro-tested to 220psi, with fittings in place no less, and along the same lines that Accucraft supposedly tests Ruby boilers to 160psi.It almost seems to me that in Ga1 live steam these days there are a few things, and a few people, who subscribe to the "If a little is good then a lot more is a lot better" school of thought.This is unecessary, and mis-guided. This should not be taken as a criticism of Pikes Peak or Accucraft, they are entitled to test to whatever pressures they see fit, and they may very well have good reason for doing what they do, although I can't think of a single one.The reason for my comments is to counteract any tendency there might be in the wake of this for people in Ga1 live steam to begin saying that hydro-testing to a high multiple (250% to 400%) of WP (working pressure) is now in some way a requirement or a good thing. It is not and should not be. The universally accepted, and in some cases regulated, test pressures for miniature copper boilers are 2 X WP (200%) for the initial (new) test and 1.5 X WP (150%) for all subsequent tests.Thus for a boiler intended to operate at a nominal 40psi, the new (1st time) test pressure should be done at 80psi and subsequent tests should be done to 60psi. These are neither minimum nor maximum pressures but are "target" pressures, but in any case there is no compelling reason to take test pressure substantially beyond this, certainly not to 300% or 400%. The other thing that I see, in ALL gauges of live steam, is the practice of hydro testing a boiler with the fittings in place.A hydro test is not intended to test fittings nor are fittings intended to withstand hydro-test pressures.One does a hydro test to determine the soundness of the boiler structural envelope and one weep or leak at a fitting renders any hydro test of the shell inconclusive, at least for the purpose of a hydro test in the first place.I know that this won't prevent people from hydro-testing with the fittings in place, because I know how much extra work is involved in stripping a boiler down and plugging the holes with solid threaded plugs for a test, but the record should show, and the general Ga1 population should know, what the correct procedure is in case they decide to use it. Regards, Harry Wade NashvilleTennessee
DYAK chassis and boiler.
I know most on this list are Gauge 1 modellers. But I have put up a 2.5 gauge Dyak chassis and boiler on eBay if anyone is interested. Probably more interest in the UK than the USA. The boiler was made for me by Harry Wade, so it's top quality. I'm sorry to have to let these go, but I need to build a house (and workshop) again! The eBay item numbers are 5959948930 and 5959948594. Both have starting prices quite a bit below what I paid, so there's a couple of potential bargains here. Cheers Keith -- == Keith Manison Tel 876 983-0550 Box 103 Old Harbour, St Catherine Jamaica W.I.[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Boiler bushing bronze
Here goes my 2 cent's worth about copper treaded bushings. Better if you use a no zinc bronze. Copper is too soft and its threads will tend to distort and even pull out when a male thread is screwed in it. Like you will always be able to tighten it more. Bronzes silver solders well. Copper, though soft, doesn't machine well. It's sticky and sort of welds to the cutting tool and this causes rough finished surfaces. Arthur--Mexico City Subject: Re: Boiler bushing bronze
Re[2]: Boiler bushing bronze
Auther These are my sentiments exactly. Turning copper is for the beginner inviting the ploughed field finish if it doesnt get torn out of the chuck to disappear with high speed past your left ear. Just pulling down a screw can be the last time. I'd go for the bronze. Bert - Bert Edmunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Boiler bushing bronze
At 11:30 PM 2/15/05 -0500, you wrote: my opinion on using copper as bushings is based on the following: #1 LBSC in his book about building TICH (page 156) recommends as bushing material copper with The next best thing is bronze. Henner, That was written ca. 1951 and things have changed in 50+ years. I have a boiler from one of the most popular LBSC locos, designed ca. 1946, which uses no bushings for fittings and today of course this would never fly. #2 The Tich boiler kit we are currently building for my friend David's garratt was supplied by Reeves with material for copper bushings. Having been one of the worlds principle suppliers for all these years and one assumes up to date, I would be very surprised if Reeves supplied copper but they may very well have. In either case some phos bronze appears pinkish-red and very similar to copper but certainly doesn't machine like copper. You'll be able to tell the difference when you begin machining, the phos-bronze is very hard and tends to heat up quickly. Regards, Harry
Re: Re[2]: Boiler bushing bronze
Bert warned:- These are my sentiments exactly. Turning copper is for the beginner inviting the ploughed field finish if it doesnt get torn out of the chuck to disappear with high speed past your left ear. Just as long as it's not the right of the left ear Mike (been there, done that - just once!)
RE: Boiler bushing bronze
I would suggest staying away from Aluminum Bronze. The aluminum bronzes require special (read expensive and hard to get) fluxes to silver braze properly. Regular fluzes do not clean properly on aluminum bronze so it's basically like soldering without flux. Not very nice. What you want is a phosphor bronze. Look at Enco or McMaster-Carr Ken Colorado USA What you need is a no zinc bronze. Bronze is copper alloy. Go to your nearest machine shop and beg or buy a tiny piece of aluminum bronze and turn it to your needs. SAE 94 bronze is softer and good. It has lead but no zinc. All machine shops have left overs and will give you a little piece happily with no sweat.
Re: Boiler bushing bronze
Message text written by INTERNET:sslivesteam@colegroup.com Henner is of course entitled to his opinion but cutting decent threads in bushings, regardless of material, is not the point. A very nice thread can be coaxed through a copper however the greatest need, and the primary purpose in using bronze, is to retain the fullest and strongest thread for Harry, my opinion on using copper as bushings is based on the following: #1 LBSC in his book about building TICH (page 156) recommends as bushing material copper with The next best thing is bronze. #2 The Tich boiler kit we are currently building for my friend David's garratt was supplied by Reeves with material for copper bushings. #3 The draft of the Australian live steamers on medium pressure gauge 1 boilers allows copper bushings. The link to this draft was somewhere in the thread about boilers in mylargescale. Unfortunately I downloaded the draft, but can't find the link any more #4 We built a small vertical boiler a couple of years ago with copper bushings. The bushing for the safety valve doubles up as filler valve and is removed for every filling/topping up. The thread is M6 x 0.75, finer than 1/4 28TPI. As of today not a trace of wear is visible. #5 With copper as bushing, the choice of material for the fittings is wider, as bronze can be used (unless the bronze for bushing/fitting is of a different grade) #6 I agree with Vance, that tapping directly into a backplate is not to be recommended. My point was/is that at least for gauge 1 boilers copper bushings are as safe as bronze bushings, in case copper rod is more easily available. For larger boilers I would probably switch to bronze for the reasons you indicated. Regards Henner
Re: Boiler bushing bronze
Jim, What you need is a no zinc bronze. Bronze is copper alloy. Go to your nearest machine shop and beg or buy a tiny piece of aluminum bronze and turn it to your needs. SAE 94 bronze is softer and good. It has lead but no zinc. All machine shops have left overs and will give you a little piece happily with no sweat. Arthur--Mexico City Subject: Boiler bushing bronze What is the best type of bronze to use for boiler bushings
Boiler bushing bronze
Hello all What is the best type of bronze to use for boiler bushings on guage 1 live steamers, and where is the best place to buy it? Thanks Jim O'Hearn
Boiler bushing bronze
Message text written by INTERNET:sslivesteam@colegroup.com Hello all What is the best type of bronze to use for boiler bushings on guage 1 live steamers, and where is the best place to buy it? Thanks Jim O'Hearn Jim, I bought alloy 316 from McMaster-Carr, but never used it for bushings. The main reason for using bronze has been, that cutting threads in copper was difficult. However, with modern tapping fluids like Rapid Tap you get beautiful threads even in copper. So at least in my opinion no need for bronze bushings... Regards Henner
Re: Boiler bushing bronze
At 06:57 PM 2/13/05 -0800, you wrote: What is the best type of bronze to use for boiler bushings on guage 1 live steamers, and where is the best place to buy it? Thanks Jim O'Hearn Jim, The preferred material is phosphor bronze, and while there are a number of phosphor bronzes one of the most commonly stocked ones has an alloy designation of C-510. A workable alternative is 660 bronze which is a continuous cast bearing bronze usually sold in 13 sticks at any good bearing supply house or industrial supply. Even though it has a very small % of lead I use it for larger (5/8+OD) bushings and it works just fine. Henner is of course entitled to his opinion but cutting decent threads in bushings, regardless of material, is not the point. A very nice thread can be coaxed through a copper however the greatest need, and the primary purpose in using bronze, is to retain the fullest and strongest thread form possible for as long as possible. Fine threads in a malleable material such as copper are easily damaged or stretched . . . in other words they deteriorate much faster. The reason that phosphor bronze is preferred is that it cuts and holds threads like mild steel yet is completely compatible with copper and silver solders as easily as copper. Regards, Harry
Re: Boiler bushing bronze
Henner notes that you don't necessarily need bronze bushings, since copper can now be tapped with modern cutting fluids. Please, don't take this to mean that you don't need bushings, only that they don't have to be bronze. There was a long discussion recently on the G1MRA list about boilers -- including some from well-known Japanese loco builders -- with appliances threaded directly into the backhead plate, without bushings. I'll spare you the details, but will summarize the thread thus: yes, it can be done. No, it's not a good idea. The original post was looking for a source for bronze bushings. I'm not sure where you'll find copper for bushings, either. Do not use brass under any circumstances, as it will deteriorate in a matter of a few years and become unsuitable for holding pressure. You can buy bronze rod from McMaster-Carr's web site. regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Re: Boiler bushing bronze
Jim: You will find 660 bronze in the Enco catalog (and others) in different sizes. A solid 1 inch diameter rod of 660 bronze 13 inches long is on sale this month in the Enco catalog for US$10.29 plus shipping. Sizes range from 1/2 inch to 3 1/2 inches, all 13 inches long. Cheers Clark Clark B Lord - Las Vegas, Nevada USA Las Vegas Live Steamers - Gauge 1 live steam Treasurer, Las Vegas Garden Railway Society Member, Steam Events LLC Harry Wade wrote: At 06:57 PM 2/13/05 -0800, you wrote: What is the best type of bronze to use for boiler bushings on guage 1 live steamers, and where is the best place to buy it? Thanks Jim O'Hearn Jim, The preferred material is phosphor bronze, and while there are a number of phosphor bronzes one of the most commonly stocked ones has an alloy designation of C-510. A workable alternative is 660 bronze which is a continuous cast bearing bronze usually sold in 13 sticks at any good bearing supply house or industrial supply. Even though it has a very small % of lead I use it for larger (5/8+OD) bushings and it works just fine. Henner is of course entitled to his opinion but cutting decent threads in bushings, regardless of material, is not the point. A very nice thread can be coaxed through a copper however the greatest need, and the primary purpose in using bronze, is to retain the fullest and strongest thread form possible for as long as possible. Fine threads in a malleable material such as copper are easily damaged or stretched . . . in other words they deteriorate much faster. The reason that phosphor bronze is preferred is that it cuts and holds threads like mild steel yet is completely compatible with copper and silver solders as easily as copper. Regards, Harry
Re: Boiler bushing bronze
Hi Jim. Basically, any of the continuous cast bronze bars usually available from bearing suppliers at a reasonable cost. Here they sell it in 1 foot long sticks. Some in larger sizes from 7/8 diameter is available hollow cast, which if you are making things with large holes through them (eg Gauge 1 cylinders) is cheaper.You need a cast material - stay away from sintered ones. Probably a leaded bronze would be easier to work. LG1 is often used also. Jim Gregg W.Australia. At 06:57 PM 2/13/2005 -0800, you wrote: Hello all What is the best type of bronze to use for boiler bushings on guage 1 live steamers, and where is the best place to buy it? Thanks Jim O'Hearn
Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Midwest Boiler
When I made a modified Bagars I took the Midwest boiler and made a new shroud sheet from hobby shop brass sheet. I put twice as many air holes as the original, and raised the pressure can about another 1/2 inch or so. Also soldered in a ring of heat gatherers on the bottom of the boiler can. They were stubs of #10 copper wire about 3/4 inch long with most of the wire hanging down into the fire. I made a burner of three 1/4 inch tubes about 1/2 inch long soldered (silver solder) onto a tin can metal disk. The tubes were arranged in a triangle and 1/8 inch fuel line fed them in a Y pattern. Instead of a Midwest single acting engine I made a double acting oscillator of 1/4 inch bore and about the same stroke from scrap brass I had around the shop. The only problem I had was that I could not find the fine chain and sprockets and the sprocket I had made me use a large one on the wheel axle and on O gauge tin plate (Lionel 027 track) the chain hangs between two of the three rails so the little guy can not go through a switch or crossing. I made this engine for a friend so it is no longer in my possession, but looking through my brass to make an O gauge engine with direct drive to the wheels, more like a regular locomotive without chain drive. I can knock off double acting oscillator cylinders now pretty quick as long as my scrap box holds up. (maybe I should go in business and buy some brass and make cylinders and port plates for small locos that others could adopt to their own locomotive designs. Any interest? Drop me a line.) John W. Meacham High desert of California LBSC Virginia in 3.5 gauge
Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Midwest Boiler
John, I am very interested in the idea of cylinder/piston assemblies, I intend to persue building my own steam engine along the lines of the Bargs prodject, moving onward to a tram type enginge for either 45mm or perhaps "O" (just to sayI've done it). How practicle are the sizes needed for simple H.O. designs? Enjoying the Learning Curve, Dan McGrath Daniel J. McGrath From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: sslivesteam@colegroup.com To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam sslivesteam@colegroup.com Subject: Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Midwest Boiler Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:14:47 EST When I made a modified Bagars I took the Midwest boiler and made a new shroud sheet from hobby shop brass sheet. I put twice as many air holes as the original, and raised the pressure "can" about another 1/2 inch or so. Also soldered in a ring of "heat gatherers" on the bottom of the boiler can. They were stubs of #10 copper wire about 3/4 inch long with most of the wire hanging down into the fire. I made a burner of three 1/4 inch tubes about 1/2 inch long soldered (silver solder) onto a tin can metal disk. The tubes were arranged in a triangle and 1/8 inch fuel line fed them in a Y pattern. Instead of a Midwest single acting engine I made a double acting oscillator of 1/4 inch bore and about the same stroke from scrap brass I had around the shop. The only problem I had was that I could not find the fine chain and sprockets and the sprocket I had made me use a large one on the wheel axle and on O gauge tin plate (Lionel 027 track) the chain hangs between two of the three rails so the little guy can not go through a switch or crossing. I made this engine for a friend so it is no longer in my possession, but looking through my brass to make an O gauge engine with direct drive to the wheels, more like a regular locomotive without chain drive. I can knock off double acting oscillator cylinders now pretty quick as long as my scrap box holds up. (maybe I should go in business and buy some brass and make cylinders and port plates for small locos that others could adopt to their own locomotive designs. Any interest? Drop me a line.) John W. Meacham High desert of California LBSC Virginia in 3.5 gauge
Re: Boiler washing
Unfortunately, life's priorities got in the way I did not run the engine for about two years. I left a little water in the boiler, thinking why let it go to waste when I'll be raising steam the next weekend. Well, that next weekend turned out to be this weekend. I bought a large bottle of distilled white vinegar from Costco and went through half of it before switching to distilled water to flush it out. While running on vinegar, the color of the fluid in the sight glass turned a clear green. Within an hour, all seemed normal in the sight glass. I'll be putting the engine through its paces again today to flush out whatever precipitate remains from the vinegar wash. Regards, Joe On Jan 1, 2005, at 11:00 PM, Tony wrote: Boiler washing Hm... ...in 15 years with one engine using the same boiler, wearing out two sets of O rings in the cylinders I have yet to see one smidge of scale build up? ...were the boilers in question all furred up and white inside? Change your water source! The only hint of a blockage in all my years of steaming...countless thousands of scale miles the only bockage I have had is a small seed getting in the admission steam line...that took a little figuering out but no calcite buildup! If steam is not getting through make sure your super heater is not got a burnt bit of oil in the passage...that can happen if you are not using proper steam oil. Personally I keep a small cup and tea bag in the tender for blowing down the boiler...can't waste all that good hot water...pass the cucumber sangys! Great steaming to all in 2005...Happy New Year! TonyO on Vancouver Island
Re: Boiler washing
I think you have a valid point, Tony. My Aster Schools is almost 30 years old and I have never done anything to the boiler, The boiler check valve is clean and used for every run as I pump water through it from the tender. My Aster KGV is about 13 yrs old, nothing done to that boiler-the sight glass is still clear, I have never had to clean it I do use good distilled water--sometimes I leave water in the boilers, sometimes I take it out, depends on how long before I think I might run the loco again. Geoff Boiler washing Hm... ...in 15 years with one engine using the same boiler, wearing out two sets of O rings in the cylinders I have yet to see one smidge of scale build up? ...were the boilers in question all furred up and white inside? Change your water source! The only hint of a blockage in all my years of steaming...countless thousands of scale miles the only bockage I have had is a small seed getting in the admission steam line...that took a little figuering out but no calcite buildup! If steam is not getting through make sure your super heater is not got a burnt bit of oil in the passage...that can happen if you are not using proper steam oil. Personally I keep a small cup and tea bag in the tender for blowing down the boiler...can't waste all that good hot water...pass the cucumber sangys! Great steaming to all in 2005...Happy New Year! TonyO on Vancouver Island
Boiler washing.
To All I have just read some of the suggestions and agree all will probably work well according to the substances used. Running the loco with what is basically corrosive exhaust may damage paintwork if adequate precaution is not taken. I know everybody knows this but in heat of the moment??? Some gaskets may not like some materials either. Just a thought. I'm now going back to bed to try to sleep of some of the basically inflammable, enjoyable, drinks of yesterday, - no - this morning. Oh well all the very best for the new year to all out there from Austria, and keep the needle on the pin!. Bert - Bert Edmunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Boiler washing
Boiler washing Hm... ...in 15 years with one engine using the same boiler, wearing out two sets of O rings in the cylinders I have yet to see one smidge of scale build up? ...were the boilers in question all furred up and white inside? Change your water source! The only hint of a blockage in all my years of steaming...countless thousands of scale miles the only bockage I have had is a small seed getting in the admission steam line...that took a little figuering out but no calcite buildup! If steam is not getting through make sure your super heater is not got a burnt bit of oil in the passage...that can happen if you are not using proper steam oil. Personally I keep a small cup and tea bag in the tender for blowing down the boiler...can't waste all that good hot water...pass the cucumber sangys! Great steaming to all in 2005...Happy New Year! TonyO on Vancouver Island
Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Midwest Boiler
In a message dated 11/24/2004 2:31:57 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BPE boiler mods? When I modified the Midwest boiler for my version of the BPE for O gauge I added wire (10 Ga copper porcupine quills on the bottom sheet. each quill was about 3/4 inch long with 1/2 inch in the fire. Also made a new shroud with about twice as many air holes around the side. Also raised the tank about 1/4 to 1/2 inch within the shroud and added another layer of insulation. Made a three burner alcohol burner with the wicks about half way between the center and the walls of the shroud. Working that small a scale made the chain hang down between the rails and since all my O gauge track is Lionel 027 stuff had to offset the axle sprocket so the chain would miss the center rail. I also tried the exhaust up the stack also and could not see any difference. My engine was a home made double acting oscillating type. Even with the mods it ran well on the straight parts of my oval, but sure had a hard time on that short radius Lionel track making it around the curves. (Worked better when I put the bends in as one curved, one straight, one curved etc. Of course with that chain and sprocket hanging down there was no way to have a switch or cross in the layout. The wheels I used were old wheels from a Lionel tin gauge truck.
Re: Zamak - was Boiler water
I have to agree with Harry. I don't have any fancy degrees or anything, = but I have done some study into the metallurgy of different alloys, and if = I remember correctly Zamak the major component of Zamak is Zinc, and we = already discussed the Zinc leaching from Brass. I also have a powerboat here on the Chesapeake Bay, and we just replaced the zincs, which I believe are Zamak castings. They are sacrificial anodes to avoid electrolysis eating away at our underwater metal parts, e.g. propellors. I've lost the original rational for this thread, but wouldn't a boiler in storage benefit if full of water - in theory? In practice it couldn't be a good engineering decision as you'd have to remove them before firing up! Pete
Re: Zamak - was Boiler water
At 09:31 AM 6/23/04 EDT, you wrote: I also have a powerboat here on the Chesapeake Bay, and we just replaced the zincs, which I believe are Zamak castings. They are sacrificial anodes Pete When a metal of high nobility is coupled with a metal of low nobility in an electrlytic solution, especially seawater (but plain water will do), a flow of electrical current will flow. Zinc is one of the least noble metals and will create a relatively strong galvanic action with almost all others and erosion of the least noble metal will occcur. This is why brass (and zamak) isn't a good material for boilers. I've never heard of anyone using sacrifical annodes in a copper model boiler, there would be no compelling reason to do that, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been done. In model steel boilers on the other hand many people believe there is a benefit to sacrificial annodes, but then some don't. I can't recall ever seeing an article where they were shown conclusively to be necessary, but a few people believe in them and as far as I know installing one doesn't hurt. The only problem could be that the zinc molecules don't just disappear, they must go somewhere else within the system, usualy to the most noble metal present, and will create deposits of metal in places where they're not wanted. Regards, Harry
Re: sslivesteam2-Digest - Boiler water
Water, copper, brass and other stuff: The word water does not describe a unique substance by a long ways. The water that I used to consider good for our steam generators that pumped well over a million lbs of water an hour through them might be useless for a computer chip maker or a laboratory doing analysis. Pure water never stays pure very long, as soon as it comes in contact with any metals it picks up ions from the metal. Where lab quality water is involved piping and containers are either an inert plastic or glass. (But boiler water at high temperatures will leach silicon from glass even.) For our locomotives I would skip distilled or reverse osmosis water and stay with soft household water. Now boiler fittings. If you braze or solder brass bushings into a copper boiler the brass can have the zinc leached out leaving a spongy mass of tin. Therefore be sure to use bronze with tin content rather than plain zinc, copper brass. Again there are all sorts of tins and bronzes as well. Among the worse alloys for boiler work are the lower melting forms of Zamak, although there are high tin content Zamaks that are fine for boiler work. I have seen plenty of boilers with bronze bushings but with brass check valves etc screwed into the bushings that seem to last for many years. But the material that is bonded to the copper shell by a brazing alloy should be bronze not brass. I was using distiled or water from our R.O. unit in my boilers till I found that the gauge glasses were clouding up and not cleanable with my handy pipe cleaner. The purer (Is that a word?) RO water at heat was apparently etching into the glass. So swiched to soft water that had gone through a single bed softener to replace the calcium with sodium which I think will eliminate scale build up but not attack other metals as the more pure water does.
BRONZE - BRASS (WAS Re: sslivesteam2-Digest - Boiler water)
Friends, Is there an easy way to tell bronze from brass? I have several bars of bronze that I bought to use for boiler bushings and fittings and I also have some bars of brass left over from sparkie projects. I usually have a hard time telling one from the other, except that I store them separately. I also am collecting scrap plumbing valves and fittings to melt down for some casting projects and, here again, I don't know for sure whether I have brass or bronze. Some I believe to be bronze because the boxes they came in said so, but they look the same as some valves that a plumber friend gave me as scrap brass. Casey Sterbenz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: sslivesteam2-Digest - Boiler water Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:28:32 EDT snip Now boiler fittings. If you braze or solder brass bushings into a copper boiler the brass can have the zinc leached out leaving a spongy mass of tin. Therefore be sure to use bronze with tin content rather than plain zinc, copper brass. Again there are all sorts of tins and bronzes as well. Among the worse alloys for boiler work are the lower melting forms of Zamak, although there are high tin content Zamaks that are fine for boiler work. I have seen plenty of boilers with bronze bushings but with brass check valves etc screwed into the bushings that seem to last for many years. But the material that is bonded to the copper shell by a brazing alloy should be bronze not brass. snip
Re: sslivesteam2-Digest - Boiler water
We currently use a water softener that uses Potasium Cloride as the medium cleanser. Same idea as the salt bath, less material needed (100# every year... maybe?) The salt in your softener system is used to clean the filter medium. The medium 'catches' and holds the excess calcium ions in your water. Later (usually like 2AM-ish) the bed is flushed with saltwater which frees the calcium ions by exchanging sodium ions for them. The system is them backflushed with clean water and the sodium ions let go of the medium leaving it ready for the next day's load of calcium and other goodies. Don't ask me how the salt doesn't stick to the medium, I don't know. ; ] On the DI water used in semiconductor processing... It's only ever used once before it gets reprocessed. In fact, if the line it's in isn't flowing properly (that is to say, continuously) then the water in that line is no longer considered to be DI water and has to be fully flushed before it can be used again. Some of our Implanters use DI for coolant as the high resistivity allows the cooling water to be self-insulating (osme of these machines run up to and above 80KV DC on a regular basis. Think of a huge Pentode vacuum tube... or cathode-ray-tube with all the plates, focusing magnets, and control grids of a particle accelerator and you wouldn't be far off.) I'm not sure how they keep the copper lines from corroding... but I've never heard of us having to do any cooling line maintanence on any of the magnets. I'ma gonna have ta ask now. I work on diffusion equipment, also known as the Easy-bake ovens of the Fab. ; ] Certainly not for boilers though. ; ] The stuff in the jugs at the grocery store likely aren't as bad, due to the length of time they sit, but I still wouldn't trust it in my loco. Trot, the mostly-informed, fox... | /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, | ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon\ There is a | \_/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative. From: Mike Chaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:- So I switched to soft water that had gone through a single bed softener to replace the calcium with sodium When I was a kid we lived in a very hard water area, so my father bought a water softener. This had to be filled regularly with salt. Now I know why. Mike _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Re: sslivesteam2-boiler water
In a message dated 6/21/2004 12:11:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: boilers live longer on rain water than on distilled water and generally give less corrosion problems pure water is what is called hungery water that is it will pick up just about any metals it contacts. On our bigger boilers we did use pure water with additions of horrible toxic stuff to grab the oxygen and get rid of it. Careful control of the Ph value, deairating heaters to vent gasses etc. For most model boilers I would use softened water, water that has gone through an ion exchange to replace the calcium with sodium ions. The calcium is what makes the hard scale when the water is boiled, and the sodium comes off with the steam. You may buy bottles of soft water at the grocery, or many homes have water softeners but some are plumbed so only the hot water lines go through the process. I left my Virginia (3.5 inch gauge American type 4-4-0) for several years due some family problems. I filled the boiler with soft water and kept it sealed up. When I finally got it out of storage I put a hydrostat on for 150 psi and no leaks, weeps etc. I was surprised too that even the Viton O rings still sealed and ran well. Advocates of storage with distilled water claim the distilled water will attack the metals, but that as soon as the water becomes saturated it stops corroding the boiler and fittings. Water is the closest thing we have around as a universal solvent. You would think there was nothing more resistant to water than beach sand which is washed and rewashed by water, but when high winds would blow at our beach front power plant we had to carry partial load otherwise the extremely fine blow sand would get into boiler water and disolve silica from the sand and plate out glass on the turbine blades.
Leaving water in boiler
When I leave water out for a dog it gets slimy within a week. Why doesn't distilled water in our boilers or tenders also slime up within at least a month or two? Steaming Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor However I have left distilled water in copper boilers for up to a year with no apparent ill effects. Geoff
Lubricating Boiler
I can heatily not recommend letting locos cool without relieving pressure on the lubricator line. Oh, sure, steam oil does get drawn into the boiler to lubricate the boiler (a machinist did this to a loco I resurrected from his horrid touch), but that steam oil bubbles up into a foam that thoroughly inhibits steam generation and can displace water so the boiler is dry with only lots of steam oil foam. Took me a few attempts at firing the loco to realize why no steam was generating (well, first I had to remove the smoke generator that had burned through and put out the fire each time pressure rose a bit). Getting that foam out was not fun. It was tedious, repetitious, and took several hours of rinsing with alcohol before the foam was all gone. Then I had to let the boiler air out for a week, before refilling with clean distilled water. Needless to say, I am very careful to teach any who are curious to always open the lubricator to let pressure drop when cooling the loco down or when refueling. As long as pressure is maintained with the fire no worries about foam. I hate foam in the boiler, in case any of you wondered. Steaming Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor It would be nice to find an additive that could be put in the boiler water that would have a anti-corrosive effect relative to the copper, and that would be chemically compatible with all parts. Maybe someday someone will formulate such an additive. Cheers --- Bob
RE: Leaving water in boiler
Running on theory here but... The water in your boiler has been boiled to death... litterally. The fungi and bacteria that cause the slime in your dog's water are not present, or at least are dead, due to the heat. Not to mention that there is no light getting into the boiler nor are there easy paths for introduction of fresh spores and algea. Also, the water we use, being distilled, should have fewer life-forms and other junk present than what we drink or feed to our pets. That's not a completely positive thing where drinking is concerned as some of those impurities are needed for the water to be compatable with our systems. Distilled water is not for drinking and drinking water is not for boiling! Just a thought. : ] Trot, the clean, fox... | /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, | ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon\ There is a | \_/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative. From: Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED] When I leave water out for a dog it gets slimy within a week. Why doesn't distilled water in our boilers or tenders also slime up within at least a month or two? Steaming Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor However I have left distilled water in copper boilers for up to a year with no apparent ill effects. Geoff _ From will you? to I do, MSN Life Events is your resource for Getting Married. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married
Re: Lubricating Boiler
to all I have been using filtered rain water for years, as do most people in our area, without any negative side effects. Some of the plusses are, that drops of pure distilled water (not battery water which is in Europe generally filtered) leave difficult to remove stains on paintwork. Filtered rainwater does not. ( live in the Austrian Alps not near to any industrial pollution) Distilled water is considered aggressive filtered rainwater water not!. Someone out there may be able to throw more light on this subject but even on 5 gauge engines there is the feeling!! that boilers live longer on rain water than on distilled water and generally give less corrosion problems. This is not based on any study, just on the fact that we have no problems (except for the traces of steam oil which gets drawn into the boiler inadvertently now and again). Over to the experts:- Bert in Austria. - Bert Edmunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Good Boiler Building Technique
At 07:29 AM 4/5/04 -0400, you wrote: At least until Harry sits down and writes one! ;-) Terry Griner Terry, Can't say as I haven't thought about it but technical writing and illustration is much more time consuming than it looks and the publication costs vs return don't justify the time and effort, at least if you are going to do a really good job of it. Maybe that's why MAP/Argus, the largest publisher of model engineering and live steam books, have done only one new boiler book (Farmer, 1988) in the last 30± years. Regards, Harry
Good Boiler Building Technique
I have never built a boiler. A scrap metal place nearby often has thick walled copper pipe the right diameter for a boiler. Since any, much less good boiler building technique is in my experience . . . what instruction guidelines exist? Where is it possible to learn? Steaming Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor I would say one important consideration in that instance, in addition to using good boiler building technique, would be to use water tubes which are as thick-walled as you can find, certainly thicker than standard soft copper plumbing tubing. Regards, Harry
Re: Good Boiler Building Technique
At 10:41 AM 4/2/04 -0800, you wrote: I have never built a boiler. A scrap metal place nearby often has thick walled copper pipe the right diameter for a boiler. Gary, It doesn't need to be all that thick, in 2 diameter copper either a Type L (@ .070 wall) or Type M (.058) will be sufficient for any Ga1 application I could imgaine. Good design typically means such things as using proper materials, in sufficient thickness, correctly proportioning flues, and bushing all penetrations for instance. Good technique or execution would mean making joints and seams fit snugly, making bushings and tapped holes square and aligned, cleaning surfaces to be soldered, and using the right flux and solder, and insuring sound soldered joints, etc. It really isn't as clinical as I make it sound, except that I don't know any other way to describe it. Most of most useful, informative, and available books on the subject will be British, Model Boilers and Boilermaking by KN Harris, Locomotive and Marine Boilers (and variations) by Martin Evans, Model Locomotive Boilermaking by Alec Farmer, and older books by Henry Greenly and LBSC. The locomotive books by Kozo Hiraoka also contain marvelous illustrated treatises on boilermaking. Although small scale is a slightly different animal, and all the foregoing predominantly focus on larger scales, 3-1/2 ga and up, most of the basic principles are the same. In my experience though no one book contains everything you would benefit from knowing and certainly not all you'd need to know when working in small scale. Regards, Harry
Jun Kitsukawa re Roundhouse boiler piston project
My friend Ted made his own saddle tank Porter using Roundhouse boiler and pistons and wheels. I am not sure if he bothered using drawings. I will ask him. You can see a photo of his Porter here: http://community.webshots.com/photo/31330692/36916693nqCTeE I have other photos I can send to you directly if you wish. Steaming Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor
Re: Australian Boiler codes
On 10/3/04 7:02 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Until a hobby is proven to be hazardous to the general public, don't try to regulate it. Amen to that Tom. Some people in this particular hobby seem to have an unnatural desire for both complication and regulation. It both puts off new people and makes life uncomfortable. I wonder how many people have their electric shower tested every two years. These have quite a high pressure flash boiler and one is standing buck naked in water and connected to 9 kilowatt of electrical power! -- Tag Gorton Editor Garden Rail Atlantic Publishers http://www.trevor-ridley.co.uk/index.html Editor 16mm Today http://www.16mmngmodellers.org.uk/
Re: Australian Boiler codes
In our case I have to agree. However, I have to disagree on general principle. We are in a somewhat unique position as our toys have been around, and safe, for a good long while now. However, in the case of a recently developed hobby I'd have to say that it should be determined that the events related to such a hobby would be determined safe for all involved _before_ someone gets dead. : ] Of course, this likely has a lot to do with the industry I'm in... If someone so much as sneezes around here we have to fill out medical reports. *rolls eyes* Trot, the detailed, fox... | /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, | ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon\ There is a | \_/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative. From: Tag Gorton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Until a hobby is proven to be hazardous to the general public, don't try to regulate it. Amen to that Tom. Some people in this particular hobby seem to have an unnatural desire for both complication and regulation. It both puts off new people and makes life uncomfortable. I wonder how many people have their electric shower tested every two years. These have quite a high pressure flash boiler and one is standing buck naked in water and connected to 9 kilowatt of electrical power! -- Tag Gorton _ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Australian Boiler codes
Mike, A little background on small boilers and AMBSC might help understand whats afoot here. RITGoG is a group of friends who built and operate at public model exhibitioins a 32/45mm live steam layout, sceniced, and very nice indeed..when we started several years ago, there was no knowledge among the model rail fraternity about 16mm csale live steam and this layout being seen in public was largely responsible for the growth in small scale live steam modelling here. As it grew and we got more and more requests to show, we felt it was time to clarify the position on liabilty insurance, unfortunately this coincided with a collapse of a very large insurance co here which threw the entire insurance industry into turmoil, premiums in some cases quadrupled, and some public events which had been held for many years without problems became uninsurable and closed down.[rodeos and similar ,tourist horse riding , adventure tours etc where some affected] The end result was that RIGoG was asked to codify a boiler operating and construction manual for these small boilers so that we could obtain insurance for public shows..once we had what looked like a suitable code we approached the AMBSC poeple as they have responsiblity for administrating the codes for ride on sizes, and our small subminature boilers are excluded at the bottom end of there code.. by Max1 litre, max 700kpa max 50mm outside diameter rulings. We made this approach because we knew that the fastest growing part of the live steam hobby was these small models and many ride on club members would want to run these at thier club tracks. without an accepted code so they where covered by the clubs insurance there was a looming problem..a great deal of work has been done, at getting a practical set of parameters so that Aster and Accucraft models would be able to run, insured ,at future club tracks and show events, no one! stated that they just wanted to play trains, and the work being done was for the benefit of all small scale steamers here, yes we where the only body working on it, but in this large and sparsely populated country ,there was no other group existing.. The work continues, and will ensure affordable public liabilty cover for running small steam models. I hesitate to point out that this whole lawyer driven ambit claim madness originated in the USA! Gordon Watson.
Re: ssls Austrailian Boiler Codes
Mike The article you are referring to was not a true description of the facts, written by another committee member not in full awareness of the facts and wanting to score points. Rails in the Garden have been working on a draft code for little boilers for some 18 months. With input from local manufacturers and other people well versed on small scale live steam. Rails in the Garden is still working amicably with the AMBSC to address the problem. Rails in the Garden has a live steam layout which we have been showing at public exhibitions for 8 years. In this time we have seen the hobby grow with many converts running ready made engines and a growing number of scratch builders. The group has the full support of all small scale live steam groups in Australia in getting the situation sorted. http://www.ritginc.orgis the website for the group Regards Paul Interesting things afoot in Australia regarding small scale boiler codes. I just received Australian Model Engineering (AME) issues 112 (January) and 113 (March). Some group identified as RitGoG approached AMBSC about coverage of small scale boilers down towards the 35 psi, 1 liter, 2 inch diameter AMBSC exclusion zone that basically exceeded the pressure limit. AMBSC said not in the form submitted. So AMBSC had a meeting with an interested group of people, not RitGoG, and sent it back to RitGoG for comment. At this point, after stirring up the hornets nest, RitGoG backed out saying that it was too much work, and they just wanted to play trains. So AMBSC is left holding the nest, so to speak, and looking to get a decent representation of interests in deciding what to do about the new part of the code that they have taken on development of. So things will probably get interesting since AMBSC has to thrash this out. Mike Eorgoff
Re: Australian Boiler codes
- Original Message - From: Gordon Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:32 AM Subject: Australian Boiler codes I hesitate to point out that this whole lawyer driven ambit claim madness originated in the USA! True, but you should see what things are like in the UK! There isn't any real excuse for copying US insanities making them worse. Perhaps due to lawyers being the dominant professional group in Anglosaxon/Celtic legislatures. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I've heard of sssteamers in the US having to boiler test take out insurance for 'mall' exhibitions. Art Walker Guildford England
Re: Australian Boiler codes
we. the US types, will now have a big time problem! You have undoubtedly left the 'cat out of the bag' and the ambulance chaser's spies will have intercepted your message...oh well, it was a fun hobby while it existed, too bad the bastards ---er, barristers put it to an end. Keep your steam up! Mr. Lunkenheimer's associate
Re: Australian Boiler codes
...I hesitate to point out that this whole lawyer driven ambit claim madness originated in the USA! True, but you should see Wrong! And for my first exhibit.. Diamondhead. For my second exhibit..Sacramento, etc., etc., etc. Now, if you want to talk about smoking, fast food :) Jim
Re: [ml] ssls Austrailian Boiler Codes
Hi Mike. The information given to you via the AMBSC column in the AME magazine is totally dead wrong! RitG - a group called Rails in the Garden, and a number of other groups across the country, had got together to draft a code for smaller boilers due to the fact that the AMBSC copper boiler code is not practical for the small Gauge 1, G scale and 32 mil scale boilers. it was never meant for those boilers, and as a result is spectacularly over engineered. The new proposal was worked out by a highly competent group via meetings teleconferences and immense amounts of e-mail Unfortunately someone in AMBSC, opposed to the concept and th the small scale Steam toys (His phrase), wrote the Kettle column , and totally distorted the whole situation. The discussions are still going on, made much more difficult by the deliberate misinformation spread in the Kettle article. No one has gone off in a huff to play trains! AMBSC did not bring this up as stated below, and we are all trying to get this profitably resolved. Jim Gregg. At 01:06 PM 3/9/04 -0600, you wrote: Interesting things afoot in Australia regarding small scale boiler codes. I just received Australian Model Engineering (AME) issues 112 (January) and 113 (March). Some group identified as RitGoG approached AMBSC about coverage of small scale boilers down towards the 35 psi, 1 liter, 2 inch diameter AMBSC exclusion zone that basically exceeded the pressure limit. AMBSC said not in the form submitted. So AMBSC had a meeting with an interested group of people, not RitGoG, and sent it back to RitGoG for comment. At this point, after stirring up the hornets nest, RitGoG backed out saying that it was too much work, and they just wanted to play trains. So AMBSC is left holding the nest, so to speak, and looking to get a decent representation of interests in deciding what to do about the new part of the code that they have taken on development of. So things will probably get interesting since AMBSC has to thrash this out. Mike Eorgoff
Re: Australian Boiler codes
Gordon wrote an informative description of what's going on with boiler codes in Australia, but closed with this bon mot: I hesitate to point out that this whole lawyer driven ambit claim madness originated in the USA! You should hesitate, Gordon. After all, this whole lawyer driven madness well predates European settlement of the Americas. Why, Shakespeare himself complained about their depradations. :-) - - Steve (no, the OTHER Steve)
Re: Australian Boiler codes
- Original Message - From: mart.towers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 4:24 AM Subject: Re: Australian Boiler codes Come to think of it, I'm not sure I've heard of sssteamers in the US having to boiler test take out insurance for 'mall' exhibitions. HUSH! Mike Eorgoff
Re: Australian Boiler codes
Come to think of it, I'm not sure I've heard of sssteamers in the US having to boiler test take out insurance for 'mall' exhibitions. My 2 cents worth. 1. Gauge 1 live steam is considered by most as a part of the model railroading hobby which is percieved as minimal to no risk when operating. Same as craft and sewing shows. Where do you cross the practical line? When you ride the train, you then are operating a miniture railroad. Big difference in terms of risk. 2. Any presumed risk in ssls has not been substantiated by related serious accident history. Until such an accident or series of accidents occur, ssls will likely remain within the model railroading hobby. I also fly model airplanes where insurance coverage is manditory for group functions. On the other hand, this hobby has a long history of serious accidents and fatalities (1 fatality a couple months back at my club in Houston when a man was hit by a model airplane). Anybody even know of a serious injury operating ssls requiring significant medical treatment? Building ssls (operating Dremel tools or powered machinery) is another risk topic all together. 3. Operating ssls at the minature live steam parks (ride on gauges) does make this nice picture a little fuzzy as it does attempt to combine 2 totally different hobbies and associated risks. Either way, obtaining insurance today on anything that does not have a proven risk history is next to impossible thanks to a couple of jets being flown into the WTC. We still have several more years before the insurance industry gets rational. If being underwritten for $1,000,000 is really required in Austrailia for a couple of people to boil some water in a pressure cooker, I wish you luck. Until a hobby is proven to be hazardous to the general public, don't try to regulate it. Regards, Tom Burns
ssls Austrailian Boiler Codes
Interesting things afoot in Australia regarding small scale boiler codes. I just received Australian Model Engineering (AME) issues 112 (January) and 113 (March). Some group identified as RitGoG approached AMBSC about coverage of small scale boilers down towards the 35 psi, 1 liter, 2 inch diameter AMBSC exclusion zone that basically exceeded the pressure limit. AMBSC said not in the form submitted. So AMBSC had a meeting with an interested group of people, not RitGoG, and sent it back to RitGoG for comment. At this point, after stirring up the hornets nest, RitGoG backed out saying that it was too much work, and they just wanted to play trains. So AMBSC is left holding the nest, so to speak, and looking to get a decent representation of interests in deciding what to do about the new part of the code that they have taken on development of. So things will probably get interesting since AMBSC has to thrash this out. Mike Eorgoff
Re: copper tube for boiler
Bede asked:- Is 16swg too heavy for such a tiny boiler? Can someone suggest a place to locate 20swg copper tubing in 1.25 OD? GLR Distributors http://www.glrmodelsupplies.com/start.html list it at £5.25 /foot less VAT (about 15%) plus shipping. They're in the UK but they take plastic. Their web site is a bit of a mess but they sometimes read their e-mail and they do answer the telephone. 16swg is not too heavy and, as Jim says, will help traction, but the extra thickness does occupy valuable water space. Mike (regular and satisfied customer)
Re: copper tube for boiler
Try http://www.mcmaster.com/ page 109 Ken Vogel Lafayette, CO -Original Message- From: Bede McCormack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Oct 27, 2003 10:28 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: copper tube for boiler Hi Folks, I'm looking to make a weenie van Riemsdijk Type B (alcohol-fired smoke tube) boiler for an O gauge scale 0-6-0 tender engine. I've been reading the Eddie Cooke articles for making a boiler for the Bassett-Lowke mogul, and his notes call for a 20swg walled tube. LBSC calls for the same thickness for his Bat and Owl. 20swg comes out to about .036 or 0.194mm. So far I've checked OnLineMetals.com and the Reeves catalogue, but all their tubes in the OD I'm looking for (1.25, 3.75mm) are 16swg (.064, 1.62mm). Is 16swg too heavy for such a tiny boiler? Can someone suggest a place to locate 20swg copper tubing in 1.25 OD? Thanks for any suggestions, etc. Regards, Bede McCormack
copper tube for boiler
Hi Folks, I'm looking to make a weenie van Riemsdijk Type B (alcohol-fired smoke tube) boiler for an O gauge scale 0-6-0 tender engine. I've been reading the Eddie Cooke articles for making a boiler for the Bassett-Lowke mogul, and his notes call for a 20swg walled tube. LBSC calls for the same thickness for his Bat and Owl. 20swg comes out to about .036 or 0.194mm. So far I've checked OnLineMetals.com and the Reeves catalogue, but all their tubes in the OD I'm looking for (1.25, 3.75mm) are 16swg (.064, 1.62mm). Is 16swg too heavy for such a tiny boiler? Can someone suggest a place to locate 20swg copper tubing in 1.25 OD? Thanks for any suggestions, etc. Regards, Bede McCormack
Re: copper tube for boiler
Hi Bede. 16SWG will be fine - structurally better in fact - and you can use the weght in O scale/gauge. There ar some very slight caveats re heat transfer, but these are ridiculous and irrelevant ! I'd prefer 18m SWG personally if I could get it, but that may be the problem. An essential point when asking such a question is which part of which country you are in. The answer will be different if you are in Australia, as I am, or in UK, or different parts of the USA. This is a very cosmopolitan and international list! You could try a scrap metal dealer for instance - they are usually helpful and if you take a calliper with you you can usually browse around and buy what you need at near scrap price. Jim Gregg. At 12:28 AM 10/28/03 -0500, you wrote: Hi Folks, I'm looking to make a weenie van Riemsdijk Type B (alcohol-fired smoke tube) boiler for an O gauge scale 0-6-0 tender engine. I've been reading the Eddie Cooke articles for making a boiler for the Bassett-Lowke mogul, and his notes call for a 20swg walled tube. LBSC calls for the same thickness for his Bat and Owl. 20swg comes out to about .036 or 0.194mm. So far I've checked OnLineMetals.com and the Reeves catalogue, but all their tubes in the OD I'm looking for (1.25, 3.75mm) are 16swg (.064, 1.62mm). Is 16swg too heavy for such a tiny boiler? Can someone suggest a place to locate 20swg copper tubing in 1.25 OD? Thanks for any suggestions, etc. Regards, Bede McCormack
Re: Need a Boiler Built
Bob If you contact me off list with details I am sure I can work something out for you. Paul
Need a Boiler Built
Hi I am looking for someone to build a boiler for me. It needs to be 3 in dia and 6.75 long. Anyone out there have any ideas on who to contact about this. I am not sure about what to fire it with but would prefer gas fired. Thanks Robert Gehrig Webmaster at www.gdbarri.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Need a Boiler Built
Hey Bob. Are you going to the steamup at Terry's this Saturday? You might try Cheddar for the boiler. You can find them on my links page http://www.livesteamer.com/links.htm Chad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Robert Gehrig Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 9:44 AM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Need a Boiler Built Hi I am looking for someone to build a boiler for me. It needs to be 3 in dia and 6.75 long. Anyone out there have any ideas on who to contact about this. I am not sure about what to fire it with but would prefer gas fired. Thanks Robert Gehrig Webmaster at www.gdbarri.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Hi Jim, The things you wrote about the Midwest boiler worried me as well, ie: no saftey valve and brass flue pipe. In my attempt to fix these things I noticed areas in which I thought improvements could be made, now mind you this is my first venture into steam. Identifing these inadequacys after purchasing this kit left me with two choices: try to make useable the original bodged up design or scrap it. Since I enjoy the process of discovery during research I chose the former, it is a learning experience for me and one I rather enjoy! The information gained from discussions such as this one go a long way in helping people (such as myself being new to this hobby) understand the safety and engineering issues that go into a live steam loco, and for this I am grateful :-) A BIG Thanks to all who have contributed !!! Kindest Regards, PeteH That Midwest boiler worries me in that the ones I've seen have no safety valve - they rely on the plastic steam pipe popping off the stub it fits onto, if the pressure gets too high. That sounds possible, but sure as eggs someone will wire or clamp it on, or replace the plastic with brass or copper soldered on. I know of at least one accident in the USA where a spectator child was burnt when the steam pipe popped of the engine end in a model steam boat. The boiler was over filled, and the free end of the pipe was whipping around spraying boiling water and steam all over. The issue of the thickness of the flue pipe wall I think is probably a red herring - the conductivity across a thick wall will be reduced (VERY slightly!), but as heat transfer is much more limited at the metal/water and flue gas/metal interface, the effect of metal conductivity will be negligible. The real problem iwth the Midwest and very many other small vertical boilers is one of totally inadequate heating surface, combined with ineffective draft and gas flow arrangements. A Sterno fuel system wouldn't help either.The proposed three wick alcohol (Methylated Spirit UK) burner, would help considerably. I'd be inclined to put several more flues in the thing and use any other way of improving both heating surface and draft. If this works and you are considering this stage of modifications, then I start to wonder why persist with the original boiler? It might be easier to build a right one from scratch in the first place rather than bodge up the original. Jim Gregg.
Re: BPE boiler mods?
I'm getting a little worried about everyone's safety inasmuch as so many keystrokes have been devoted to the perils of the Midwest Boiler that we may all end up suffering from carpal tunnel syndrome... Here's something else to loose sleep over: === Health Hazards Data === Effects of Exposure: INGESTION OF LARGE AMOUNTS OF REAGENT WATER WILL CAUSE SERIOUS ILLNESS. First Aid: IF LARGE QUANTITIES ARE CONSUMED, CONSULT A PHYSICIAN. === Handling and Disposal === Spill Release Procedures: ALLOW TO EVAPORATE OR FLOW TO DRAIN. Neutralizing Agent: NONE Waste Disposal Methods: DISPOSE OF IN ACCORDANCE WITH ALL APPLICABLE FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL REGULATIONS. Handling And Storage Precautions: KEEP CONTAINER CLOSED WHEN NOT IN USE. Other Precautions: LDLO = 368 MG/KG === === The above text came from the MSDS for Distilled Water. Lets be safe - and still have some fun. :-) Mike
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Susan, I'm not too worried about brass corrosion in this instance. The chimney tube/main flue of the Midwest boiler is brass to start with, so adding some brass fire tubes should make no difference in the ultimate life of this boiler. I can easily inspect the brass water tubes every time I refuel the boiler because the tubes are right there in the fire space, exposed every time I lift the boiler to put in some fuel. Also, I am scrupulous about drying the boiler completely after the last run of the day. I empty the boiler while everything is still hot and leave the filler cap off, only replacing it after filling the boiler when next I run the engine. There is no iron at all in my boiler so there should be little or no electrolytic corrosion taking place that would leach the zinc out of the brass. Should the water tubes fail, boiler pressure would quickly dissipate. The water tubes are in the fire space so the gusher of water from such a failure should put out the fire right away. The open ends of the water tubes are completely in the waterspace so little steam would be released through the water tubes if they fail. Also, there is no throttle or restriction (other than the engine itself) in the steam takeoff line that would allow high steam pressures to build in this boiler. Therefore, any excess steam would more likely exit through the steam line, not through a failed water tube. I thank you for your concern. I share your interest in keeping this hobby as safe as can be. This hobby is supposed to be fun, not an opportunity for carelessness to cause personal injury or property damage. Casey Sterbenz From: Susan Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: BPE boiler mods? Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 19:25:17 +0100 Hi Casey, Hope you are keeping well. Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:58:12 -0400 From: Casey Sterbenz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: BPE boiler mods? I added three water tubes to my Midwest boiler. I cleaned out some brass ball point pen refill tubes, annealed them, bent them into a U shape, then soldered them into the bottom tube plate of the boiler. Oops, if this means what I think it means this is not safe. The zinc in the brass can leach out over time leaving a spongy matrix which will fail. I.e. Ka..BOOM..!!! I would very much advise you to remove these and replace with copper. Brass is fine for burners and smokeboxes, BUT not for use in a boiler itself or any fittings (e.g. bushes, stays, etc.). [snip] Best wishes, Susan. _ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Pete, Copper has greater mass and higher heat conductivity than brass. Therefore it will be a better heatsink if used for the stack, especially if it is a solid continuation of the flue. The brass tube as a stack slipped over the copper flue should be less of a heatsink. The slip fit between the two should impede heat conduction a bit also. If the motor is running faster now than with earlier tests it could be that the motor is getting broken in with repeated running. This will increase its speed and power. Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Steve, But doesn't the flue pipe also absorb the heat from the fire on it's way out? I could machine an adapter to connect the two. In either case I don't believe it is the root of the problem, I ran it one more time with the sheet elevated and the fire went out after burning about half of the fuel. But what I did notice after putting the exhaust into the bottom of the stack was a slowly raising motor speed although I don't know if it was the the effect of the blower or if it was the superheater getting up to temp. I am not going to give up on the superheater, it's advantages are to great to ignore! I believe most are running to short of a pipe to notice any gains. The Sterno HAS TO GO, no doubt about it. I am currently looking at the three wick alcohol burner from the SitG article, lots of cool mods there :-) Regards, PeteH Pete, I'm in agreement that the copper pipe flue and stack might be functioning as a heat sink that is cooling the boiler a bit and the Sterno fire cannot make up the difference. Can you try cutting off the copper flue/stack about a half inch above the boiler top and then slipping a piece of thin-wall KS brass tubing over it for a new stack? The brass tubing, having less mass, will not conduct so much heat out of the boiler. I am surprised that using the engine exhaust steam for a blower didn't help, unless maybe there is so much condensate along with the steam that is dripping into the Sterno and snuffing the flame. I am not sure that a super heater is really going to make much difference to the performance of the tiny Midwest steam engine, so don't be afraid to discard it completely for the sake of experimentation. My own BPE has the steam pipe (insulated) running down the outside of the boiler and then passing through the firebox from back to front just below the boiler. It passes between the two alcohol wick burners that I use and that's all the superheater it has. Probably it does almost nothing as a superheater but I have the satisfaction of knowing that I didn't ignore its possibilities. Let us know what happens. My own BPE with its two alcohol wicks, the boiler raised to give 1/8 airspace below the wrapper, and the stack slightly shortened steams well enough to run a twin-cylinder engine made from Midwest cylinder and piston parts. Steve
RE: BPE boiler mods?
I figured the run time would be shorter, I would also guess it builds steam quicker? Yes it seems too. What I wanted to test with the Thermocouple is the temps before and after the Superheater to determine how well it worked and if a longer run of superheater tube is needed. Now that may tell you something. Steve
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Hi Susan, Casey, Pete, Steve and list. First re the brass corrosion or more properly de-zincification, and the Midwest boiler. De-zincification is a process which happens from the inside out, so external inspection tells you nothing, - the first indication is when it fails! The mode of failure can be interestingly varied also. I think Susans scenario of Ka-boom, may be a bit dramatic, but is always a possibility, I feel that a leak, and let down of pressure is more likely, however that, spraying steam and boiling water all over, can be pretty nasty too. By the way the de-zincification process does not need iron or any other foreign metal to be present. My own experience with de-zincification was in an old copper 7.25 inch gauge loco boiler, with a brass steam turret approximately 1 inch cube, with an integral 1/2 inch threaded stem into the boiler bush, and internal threaded take offs in three of the sides. I tested the complete boiler hydraulically to 200 psi with no problems apparrent. There were no external signs whatsoever of any possible problems wih the steam turret or any other parts. I then attempted to unscrew the steam turret, and the whole block simply crumbled into coarse spongy lumps. I wonder how much longer the thing would have operated under steam before the turret let go under steam pressure of 100 psi or so. The commercial makers of toy brass boilers - Mamod, Willesco, etc., use a particular brass alloy which is not really prone to the de-zincification process, so they are more safe than someone using any old brass would be. I hope that the Midwest people use such an alloy too. That Midwest boiler worries me in that the ones I've seen have no safety valve - they rely on the plastic steam pipe popping off the stub it fits onto, if the pressure gets too high. That sounds possible, but sure as eggs someone will wire or clamp it on, or replace the plastic with brass or copper soldered on. I know of at least one accident in the USA where a spectator child was burnt when the steam pipe popped of the engine end in a model steam boat. The boiler was over filled, and the free end of the pipe was whipping around spraying boiling water and steam all over. The issue of the thickness of the flue pipe wall I think is probably a red herring - the conductivity across a thick wall will be reduced (VERY slightly!), but as heat transfer is much more limited at the metal/water and flue gas/metal interface, the effect of metal conductivity will be negligible. The real problem iwth the Midwest and very many other small vertical boilers is one of totally inadequate heating surface, combined with ineffective draft and gas flow arrangements. A Sterno fuel system wouldn't help either.The proposed three wick alcohol (Methylated Spirit UK) burner, would help considerably. I'd be inclined to put several more flues in the thing and use any other way of improving both heating surface and draft. If this works and you are considering this stage of modifications, then I start to wonder why persist with the original boiler? It might be easier to build a right one from scratch in the first place rather than bodge up the original. Jim Gregg. At 07:13 AM 9/4/03 -0400, you wrote: Susan, I'm not too worried about brass corrosion in this instance. The chimney tube/main flue of the Midwest boiler is brass to start with, so adding some brass fire tubes should make no difference in the ultimate life of this boiler. I can easily inspect the brass water tubes every time I refuel the boiler because the tubes are right there in the fire space, exposed every time I lift the boiler to put in some fuel. Also, I am scrupulous about drying the boiler completely after the last run of the day. I empty the boiler while everything is still hot and leave the filler cap off, only replacing it after filling the boiler when next I run the engine. There is no iron at all in my boiler so there should be little or no electrolytic corrosion taking place that would leach the zinc out of the brass. Should the water tubes fail, boiler pressure would quickly dissipate. The water tubes are in the fire space so the gusher of water from such a failure should put out the fire right away. The open ends of the water tubes are completely in the waterspace so little steam would be released through the water tubes if they fail. Also, there is no throttle or restriction (other than the engine itself) in the steam takeoff line that would allow high steam pressures to build in this boiler. Therefore, any excess steam would more likely exit through the steam line, not through a failed water tube. I thank you for your concern. I share your interest in keeping this hobby as safe as can be. This hobby is supposed to be fun, not an opportunity for carelessness to cause personal injury or property damage. Casey Sterbenz From: Susan Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: BPE boiler mods?
I have been reading this thread with interest and while I have never built the BPE, my grasshopper Logger has some similarities. This is a link to a drawing of the boiler that I have designed for my engine: http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/BobStarr/Pictures/ghboiler.jpg I originally had used a superheater in the design and the one that I run has that boiler in it. I don't really find that has much value. I will say that the best improvements that I have obtained is from the quills in the bottom sheet and the cross tubes in the flue. These boilers are considerably heavier duty than the Midwest boilers and are fired by a butane ceramic heater. I think that if I were to ever build one I would not even bother with a sterno fire and would figure out some other type of heat source. I believe John Thompson's article covered building one. Incidently, I do have the his whole article scanned into my computer if anybody wants it. Write me off list and I can send it to you. Bob
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Pete, Yes, the U shaped tubes hang down into the fire space and carry water from the boiler. Lots more heating surface added this way. Casey Sterbenz From: PeteH [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: BPE boiler mods? Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:32:26 -0500 Hi Casey, You wrote: I added three water tubes to my Midwest boiler. I cleaned out some brass ball point pen refill tubes, annealed them, bent them into a U shape, then soldered them into the bottom tube plate of the boiler. Let me see if I understand this correctly, the lower end of the U hangs down into the fire and they carry water? PeteH _ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental
RE: BPE boiler mods?
The quills I initially made in the project boiler were 12ga copper wire 1/2 long spaced about 1/4 apart and more than 30 were used. The wire was placed with 1/4 in the boiler and 1/4 out. Staybrite solder was used. On a second boiler for my Midwest Steam Launch I used 8 guage wire with about the same spacing. Performance was improved on both and about equal. I did run both boilers on the Project engine with the same performance. They both work. Less run time by about 3 minutes has resulted so it starts running out out of water at about 17 minutes. I have the meths burner as described in the SITG article a few years ago. The shorter run time makes sense since steam is generated at a faster rate. I really do not think the Thermocouple will really tell you much since the performance improvement will be based on an increase in steam output and just a little bit more pressure. A lower scale pressure guage would help, but then while running there are alot of factors that will vary. For my own judgement on the performance, I judge the speed of the loco through my tightest turn on my layout, and if does not slow down to much then it is good. Steve Would you mind sharing more info, like how many and what size? I suppose one would need to measure the temp of the steam, I do have a type K thermocouple laying about just need to figure a way to get the probe in the steam flow. We should also get an increase in run time with the superheater.
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Hi Steve, But doesn't the flue pipe also absorb the heat from the fire on it's way out? I could machine an adapter to connect the two. In either case I don't believe it is the root of the problem, I ran it one more time with the sheet elevated and the fire went out after burning about half of the fuel. But what I did notice after putting the exhaust into the bottom of the stack was a slowly raising motor speed although I don't know if it was the the effect of the blower or if it was the superheater getting up to temp. I am not going to give up on the superheater, it's advantages are to great to ignore! I believe most are running to short of a pipe to notice any gains. The Sterno HAS TO GO, no doubt about it. I am currently looking at the three wick alcohol burner from the SitG article, lots of cool mods there :-) Regards, PeteH Pete, I'm in agreement that the copper pipe flue and stack might be functioning as a heat sink that is cooling the boiler a bit and the Sterno fire cannot make up the difference. Can you try cutting off the copper flue/stack about a half inch above the boiler top and then slipping a piece of thin-wall KS brass tubing over it for a new stack? The brass tubing, having less mass, will not conduct so much heat out of the boiler. I am surprised that using the engine exhaust steam for a blower didn't help, unless maybe there is so much condensate along with the steam that is dripping into the Sterno and snuffing the flame. I am not sure that a super heater is really going to make much difference to the performance of the tiny Midwest steam engine, so don't be afraid to discard it completely for the sake of experimentation. My own BPE has the steam pipe (insulated) running down the outside of the boiler and then passing through the firebox from back to front just below the boiler. It passes between the two alcohol wick burners that I use and that's all the superheater it has. Probably it does almost nothing as a superheater but I have the satisfaction of knowing that I didn't ignore its possibilities. Let us know what happens. My own BPE with its two alcohol wicks, the boiler raised to give 1/8 airspace below the wrapper, and the stack slightly shortened steams well enough to run a twin-cylinder engine made from Midwest cylinder and piston parts. Steve
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Hmm, interesting that both the 12 and 8 gauge wire had about the same performance I figured the run time would be shorter, I would also guess it builds steam quicker? What I wanted to test with the Thermocouple is the temps before and after the Superheater to determine how well it worked and if a longer run of superheater tube is needed. Kindest Regards, PeteH The quills I initially made in the project boiler were 12ga copper wire 1/2 long spaced about 1/4 apart and more than 30 were used. The wire was placed with 1/4 in the boiler and 1/4 out. Staybrite solder was used. On a second boiler for my Midwest Steam Launch I used 8 guage wire with about the same spacing. Performance was improved on both and about equal. I did run both boilers on the Project engine with the same performance. They both work. Less run time by about 3 minutes has resulted so it starts running out out of water at about 17 minutes. I have the meths burner as described in the SITG article a few years ago. The shorter run time makes sense since steam is generated at a faster rate. I really do not think the Thermocouple will really tell you much since the performance improvement will be based on an increase in steam output and just a little bit more pressure. A lower scale pressure guage would help, but then while running there are alot of factors that will vary. For my own judgement on the performance, I judge the speed of the loco through my tightest turn on my layout, and if does not slow down to much then it is good. Steve Would you mind sharing more info, like how many and what size? I suppose one would need to measure the temp of the steam, I do have a type K thermocouple laying about just need to figure a way to get the probe in the steam flow. We should also get an increase in run time with the superheater.
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Pete, I added three water tubes to my Midwest boiler. I cleaned out some brass ball point pen refill tubes, annealed them, bent them into a U shape, then soldered them into the bottom tube plate of the boiler. I also punched a second row of air holes in the brass sheet that serves as the firebox of the boiler. Before I punched the extra holes the Sterno fuel would barely burn. Now it burns clean and hot. I toyed with the idea of adding water tubes to the central boiler flue but gave that up as a more difficult and not particularly useful modification. Some folks I heard about soldered a bunch of porcupine quills into the lower tube sheet instead of adding water tubes. 1/16 copper wire pieces about 3/8 long, 1/3rd of the length in the fire space, 2/3rd of the length in the water space, would be about right. No matter which approach you use, the idea is to increase the heating surface, transferring more of the heat from the fire to the water. I'm not sure using a piece of tubing with a thicker wall as the central flue will help at all. Thicker wall copper tubing will simply absorb more heat from the file and slow the heat transfer to the water. The thin brass tube supplied with the kit should give you better performance than a piece of copper with a thicker wall. The thicker wall copper tube does nothing to increase the heating surface, but acts as a heat sink, likely decreasing the efficiency of heat transfer to the water. Casey Sterbenz From: PeteH [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: BPE boiler mods? Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:40:30 -0500 Has anyone modified the vertical Midwest boiler as used in the Basic Project Engine? I have made some changes with mixed results and am soliciting advice to see if I am on the right track. The first change was to replace the brass chimney with a 'type L' copper tube of the same diameter. The second was to add a 'dry-pipe separator' inside the boiler and the third (which I am sure is the culprit) is the addition of a superheater. The superheater is made from 1/8 copper tubing and connects about 3/4 of the way up the chimney, the section inside has been annealed and twisted into a very loose spiral of about 3-1/2 turns in 5 inches. At the bottom of the chimney it makes a gradual 90 degree bend and projects out one of the holes in the lower shroud surrounding the fuel 'pot'. The problem I am having is in keeping the fire burning, caused I assume by the placement of the superheater in the chimney restricting the draft. The inner diameter of the chimney is just under 9/16, although I guessed that the loose spiral would allow enough draft I seem to be in error. I wouldn't think bringing the end of the 1/8 superheater pipe out one of the 7 intake holes would cause it? I even tried using the exhaust from the motor as a 'blower' to help induce the draft without any luck! I will replace the spiral superheater pipe with a simple straight pipe along with making a new exit hole to see if this fixes the problem, am I on the right track? Kindest Regards, PeteH _ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Pete, 1. The Midwest Boiler has minimal air intake area in the firebox/wrapper. Even without any obstructions in the flue, it is necessary to enlarge and/or increase the number of air inlets in the wrapper by 100% or so. On the prototype the fire flitted about the firepan seeking its next gulp of oxygen. Therefore, it seemed reasonable to increase the air intake area. The location of the original holes is higher than is ideal. Any efforts made to increase the intake area should also incorporate a relocation to just above the Sterno tray. 2. Instead of running the superheater/steam dryer up the stack, consider the following modification: Plug the hole in the top sheet where the steam pipe currently exits the boiler. Run the steam pipe down through the bottom sheet and make a lap around the firebox before exiting through the wrapper. See the illustration at: http://www.panyo.com/boiler.jpg 3. Sterno that has been around too long could use a little help. Adding some denatured alcohol (1 part alcohol to 2 or 3 parts Sterno) is a good way to liven up performance. 4. Despite loading gauge issues, do not shorten the stack. The boiler steams best with the original length stack intact. Hope this is of some help. Mike PeteH wrote: Has anyone modified the vertical Midwest boiler as used in the Basic Project Engine? I have made some changes with mixed results and am soliciting advice to see if I am on the right track. The first change was to replace the brass chimney with a 'type L' copper tube of the same diameter. The second was to add a 'dry-pipe separator' inside the boiler and the third (which I am sure is the culprit) is the addition of a superheater. The superheater is made from 1/8 copper tubing and connects about 3/4 of the way up the chimney, the section inside has been annealed and twisted into a very loose spiral of about 3-1/2 turns in 5 inches. At the bottom of the chimney it makes a gradual 90 degree bend and projects out one of the holes in the lower shroud surrounding the fuel 'pot'. The problem I am having is in keeping the fire burning, caused I assume by the placement of the superheater in the chimney restricting the draft. The inner diameter of the chimney is just under 9/16, although I guessed that the loose spiral would allow enough draft I seem to be in error. I wouldn't think bringing the end of the 1/8 superheater pipe out one of the 7 intake holes would cause it? I even tried using the exhaust from the motor as a 'blower' to help induce the draft without any luck! I will replace the spiral superheater pipe with a simple straight pipe along with making a new exit hole to see if this fixes the problem, am I on the right track? Kindest Regards, PeteH -- Michael Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my steam related pages at: http://www.panyo.com/steamups
RE: BPE boiler mods?
I had tried a super heater with poor results also, The fire (Meths) would stay lit but performance was down. I just abandoned it at the time. I had thought at the time there was too much restriction in the flue also. I had just recently added the porcupine quills and it seemed to help. I am getting good performance and others said its performance was better than some other projects. Being a test engineer by profession I am always looking for measurable results, but this increase in performance is difficult to quantify. While we are on the topic of the Project Engine, I have just started what I am calling Project Tram an English version of the project engine with a Tram aka Toby body. Instead of the Midwest engine I will be using the small Saito marine engine with its horizontal boiler. The frame is constructed and in the Paint Shop at this time. Running tests on the bare chassis should be run by the end of the week. The engine is modified to make it wider 4 3/8 and retains the same length. Since it will have a side skirt I made my own wheel journals out of brass strip. At the NSS I bought some proper buffers for the end beams. Steve -Original Message- From: PeteH [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 8:41 AM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: BPE boiler mods? Has anyone modified the vertical Midwest boiler as used in the Basic Project Engine? I have made some changes with mixed results and am soliciting advice to see if I am on the right track. The first change was to replace the brass chimney with a 'type L' copper tube of the same diameter. The second was to add a 'dry-pipe separator' inside the boiler and the third (which I am sure is the culprit) is the addition of a superheater. The superheater is made from 1/8 copper tubing and connects about 3/4 of the way up the chimney, the section inside has been annealed and twisted into a very loose spiral of about 3-1/2 turns in 5 inches. At the bottom of the chimney it makes a gradual 90 degree bend and projects out one of the holes in the lower shroud surrounding the fuel 'pot'. The problem I am having is in keeping the fire burning, caused I assume by the placement of the superheater in the chimney restricting the draft. The inner diameter of the chimney is just under 9/16, although I guessed that the loose spiral would allow enough draft I seem to be in error. I wouldn't think bringing the end of the 1/8 superheater pipe out one of the 7 intake holes would cause it? I even tried using the exhaust from the motor as a 'blower' to help induce the draft without any luck! I will replace the spiral superheater pipe with a simple straight pipe along with making a new exit hole to see if this fixes the problem, am I on the right track? Kindest Regards, PeteH
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Hello Mike, You wrote: 1. The Midwest Boiler has minimal air intake area in the firebox/wrapper. snip Thanks for the air inlet resizing info, I will have at it! 2. Instead of running the superheater/steam dryer up the stack, consider the following modification: Plug the hole in the top sheet where the steam pipe currently exits the boiler. Run the steam pipe down through the bottom sheet and make a lap around the firebox before exiting through the wrapper. See the illustration at: http://www.panyo.com/boiler.jpg I had originally thought of doing it this way but decided against it for two reasons: #1 - it would have been more difficult because of the addition of the dry-pipe seperator and #2 - it would have resulted in less superheater area, I currently have over 7 of exposed pipe, or about 2 more than I would have with a single spiral directly above the flame (although you could add more turns) but more importantly because I wanted to add 'porcupines' after fitting a safety valve. 3. Sterno that has been around too long could use a little help. Adding some denatured alcohol (1 part alcohol to 2 or 3 parts Sterno) is a good way to liven up performance. Ahh very good, Thanks for the tip! 4. Despite loading gauge issues, do not shorten the stack. The boiler steams best with the original length stack intact. Hope this is of some help. Mike Yes Yes Yes, very good! Many Thanks ;-) Kindest regards PeteH
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Norman wrote: boiler about 3/32 over the top of the fuel cup to let more air in - is this normal? Yes. Or punch more holes in the shroud. It makes sense now, thinking back my first couple (and only) runs were made during much cooler weather and this problem didn't come up. More holes it shall be! Regards, PeteH
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Pete -- IMHO the definitive study on the BPE (including boiler) was written and demonstrated by John Thomson. He published several articles in SitG a few years ago (contact Ron Brown for back issues.) The ultimate was a coal fired engine. Mine has been operational for about 18 months. Obviously, the boiler had to be maximized to it's potential. Jim Crabb Seabrook, TX
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Pete, I'm in agreement that the copper pipe flue and stack might be functioning as a heat sink that is cooling the boiler a bit and the Sterno fire cannot make up the difference. Can you try cutting off the copper flue/stack about a half inch above the boiler top and then slipping a piece of thin-wall KS brass tubing over it for a new stack? The brass tubing, having less mass, will not conduct so much heat out of the boiler. I am surprised that using the engine exhaust steam for a blower didn't help, unless maybe there is so much condensate along with the steam that is dripping into the Sterno and snuffing the flame. I am not sure that a super heater is really going to make much difference to the performance of the tiny Midwest steam engine, so don't be afraid to discard it completely for the sake of experimentation. My own BPE has the steam pipe (insulated) running down the outside of the boiler and then passing through the firebox from back to front just below the boiler. It passes between the two alcohol wick burners that I use and that's all the superheater it has. Probably it does almost nothing as a superheater but I have the satisfaction of knowing that I didn't ignore its possibilities. Let us know what happens. My own BPE with its two alcohol wicks, the boiler raised to give 1/8 airspace below the wrapper, and the stack slightly shortened steams well enough to run a twin-cylinder engine made from Midwest cylinder and piston parts. Steve
BPE boiler mods?
Has anyone modified the vertical Midwest boiler as used in the Basic Project Engine? I have made some changes with mixed results and am soliciting advice to see if I am on the right track. The first change was to replace the brass chimney with a 'type L' copper tube of the same diameter. The second was to add a 'dry-pipe separator' inside the boiler and the third (which I am sure is the culprit) is the addition of a superheater. The superheater is made from 1/8 copper tubing and connects about 3/4 of the way up the chimney, the section inside has been annealed and twisted into a very loose spiral of about 3-1/2 turns in 5 inches. At the bottom of the chimney it makes a gradual 90 degree bend and projects out one of the holes in the lower shroud surrounding the fuel 'pot'. The problem I am having is in keeping the fire burning, caused I assume by the placement of the superheater in the chimney restricting the draft. The inner diameter of the chimney is just under 9/16, although I guessed that the loose spiral would allow enough draft I seem to be in error. I wouldn't think bringing the end of the 1/8 superheater pipe out one of the 7 intake holes would cause it? I even tried using the exhaust from the motor as a 'blower' to help induce the draft without any luck! I will replace the spiral superheater pipe with a simple straight pipe along with making a new exit hole to see if this fixes the problem, am I on the right track? Kindest Regards, PeteH
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Try allowing more air to be drawn in at the burner. - Original Message - From: PeteH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 11:40 AM Subject: BPE boiler mods? Has anyone modified the vertical Midwest boiler as used in the Basic Project Engine? I have made some changes with mixed results and am soliciting advice to see if I am on the right track. The first change was to replace the brass chimney with a 'type L' copper tube of the same diameter. The second was to add a 'dry-pipe separator' inside the boiler and the third (which I am sure is the culprit) is the addition of a superheater. The superheater is made from 1/8 copper tubing and connects about 3/4 of the way up the chimney, the section inside has been annealed and twisted into a very loose spiral of about 3-1/2 turns in 5 inches. At the bottom of the chimney it makes a gradual 90 degree bend and projects out one of the holes in the lower shroud surrounding the fuel 'pot'. The problem I am having is in keeping the fire burning, caused I assume by the placement of the superheater in the chimney restricting the draft. The inner diameter of the chimney is just under 9/16, although I guessed that the loose spiral would allow enough draft I seem to be in error. I wouldn't think bringing the end of the 1/8 superheater pipe out one of the 7 intake holes would cause it? I even tried using the exhaust from the motor as a 'blower' to help induce the draft without any luck! I will replace the spiral superheater pipe with a simple straight pipe along with making a new exit hole to see if this fixes the problem, am I on the right track? Kindest Regards, PeteH
Re: BPE boiler mods?
Well, I have replaced the superheater with a simplfied straight pipe with little change! The only way I can even keep the fire lit is to elevate the boiler about 3/32 over the top of the fuel cup to let more air in - is this normal? I thought perhaps it was the fuel as the can was only half full and sitting for a couple of months but it was no better with a fresh can of Sterno. Could the balance of air/fuel/chimney size been so delicate that adding a single 1/8 tube into the 9/16 chimney thrown the whole mess off? Bewildered, PeteH From: Norman S. Briskman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try allowing more air to be drawn in at the burner. - Original Message - Subject: BPE boiler mods? Has anyone modified the vertical Midwest boiler as used in the Basic Project Engine? I have made some changes with mixed results and am soliciting advice to see if I am on the right track. The first change was to replace the brass chimney with a 'type L' copper tube of the same diameter. The second was to add a 'dry-pipe separator' inside the boiler and the third (which I am sure is the culprit) is the addition of a superheater. The superheater is made from 1/8 copper tubing and connects about 3/4 of the way up the chimney, the section inside has been annealed and twisted into a very loose spiral of about 3-1/2 turns in 5 inches. At the bottom of the chimney it makes a gradual 90 degree bend and projects out one of the holes in the lower shroud surrounding the fuel 'pot'. The problem I am having is in keeping the fire burning, caused I assume by the placement of the superheater in the chimney restricting the draft. The inner diameter of the chimney is just under 9/16, although I guessed that the loose spiral would allow enough draft I seem to be in error. I wouldn't think bringing the end of the 1/8 superheater pipe out one of the 7 intake holes would cause it? I even tried using the exhaust from the motor as a 'blower' to help induce the draft without any luck! I will replace the spiral superheater pipe with a simple straight pipe along with making a new exit hole to see if this fixes the problem, am I on the right track? Kindest Regards, PeteH
Re; Boiler test
Royce, Why not take advantage of your overdesigned and now tested boiler with a 60psi relief valve? At minimum you could still operate at 40psi without waisting anything out the popoff. I am still scratching my head on this next part and throw it out to the group for comments. Assuming you have sufficiant gas for the additional energy required and operate at the same speed, would you not get longer runs from a given amount of water operating at 60psi versus 40psi? As this is presumably a geared loco, I would assume you would not need the extra torque available from the higher pressure. At a first glance it seems logical as each cc. of water would have that much more energy when converted to steam. I am having difficulty understanding if this additional energy is simply lost across the pressure drop at the throttle or if it does make it to the piston. It has been too many years since I have studied steam tables to draw a conclusion. Regards, Tom Burns
RE: Re; Boiler test
This is my view point: On the surface more pressure is better, but what I have found is that for scale like and smooth operation more is not always better. When operating at max pressure somtimes smooth starts and speed regulation can be erratic and jittery. You do not always have enough fine control of the throttle valve for a smooth start at high pressure. Some engines run better at a lower pressure, higher pressures can just cause excessive speed. I prefer to run my trains at slower speeds and usually do not run very long trains. I have the same view point with my model steam boats also. If you run the engine at lower pressures duration will increase. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 9:12 AM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re; Boiler test Royce, Why not take advantage of your overdesigned and now tested boiler with a 60psi relief valve? At minimum you could still operate at 40psi without waisting anything out the popoff. I am still scratching my head on this next part and throw it out to the group for comments. Assuming you have sufficiant gas for the additional energy required and operate at the same speed, would you not get longer runs from a given amount of water operating at 60psi versus 40psi? As this is presumably a geared loco, I would assume you would not need the extra torque available from the higher pressure. At a first glance it seems logical as each cc. of water would have that much more energy when converted to steam. I am having difficulty understanding if this additional energy is simply lost across the pressure drop at the throttle or if it does make it to the piston. It has been too many years since I have studied steam tables to draw a conclusion. Regards, Tom Burns
Re: boiler test
Hi Royce. The most likely nasty is to have one of the brazed joints fail causing a leak. Murphys Law states that it will be totally inaccessible inside the boiler, so you debate whether to scrap it and start over, or try to repair it. Jim Gregg. At 09:23 AM 8/17/03 -0700, you wrote: Harry Wade wrote: Royce, 140psi for a boiler designed for 40psi WP!!??? That was totally unnecessary and could have destroyed your boiler for no reason. Regards, Harry This shows my ignorance on the subject. An extra 20 psi didn't seem significant. For my education, what could have happened to destroy the boiler ? royce in SB
Re: boiler test
Harry Wade wrote: Royce, . . . from the wording of your post it sounded as if Gordon (and Kozo) advised you to test to 3X working pressure which seems very unlikely to me. My bad. Actually, in checking the plans, I see that the working pressure is 35 psi, not 40, and Gordon DOES suggest testing to 120 psi. However, this is for a single flue boiler that only penetrates one side of the vertical tube. My boiler was changed (under Gordon's guidance to a 5 tube boiler which penetrates BOTH sides of the vertical tube (if that makes any difference). When I referred to Kozo and Gordon, I was talking about SOLDERING technique, not numbers, as the reason the boiler was successfully soldered the first time. It was definitely MY doins to take it to 140 psi without knowing the possible consequences. Now that you've shown me the way, I won't do that again. Thanks for your insight on this matter. Hopefully, it will prevent some other neophyte from hurting their boiler. royce in SB
Re: boiler test
At 07:03 AM 8/18/03 -0700, you wrote: Thanks for your insight on this matter. Hopefully, it will prevent some other neophyte from hurting their boiler. royce in SB Royce, It doesn't necessarily have to be a neophyte. In larger scale circles it has not been unheard of for clubs to have had boiler inspectors, the member responsible for hydro-testing member and visitor boilers, to be either inexperienced, uninformed, overzealous, or prejudiced against copper boilers, and over-test causing irreparable damage to someone's copper boiler. If you read Jim Gregg's recent response you will see that he and I have said exactly the same thing, that Murphy's Law dictates that any damage that occurs will occur in the most inaccessible or bothersome place and it will be a coin toss as to whether to scrap the whole lot and start again or opt for major surgery. To a great extent we (Ga1 folks) are saved from this because the majority of our boilers are self-staying and almost all joints are accessible. This is intentional. The common exception is cross tubes in a center flue, which presents you with a tradeoff, improved steaming (dispite what Les Knoll says) vs. potential for an inaccessible leak, but even then a clever boy with the proper tools can extract the flue assembly and save the boiler. Regards, Harry
Re: boiler test
At 07:03 AM 8/18/03 -0700, you wrote: My bad. Actually, in checking the plans, I see that the working pressure is 35 psi, not 40, and Gordon DOES suggest testing to 120 psi. Royce Royce, That too isn't as bad as it sounds. I've felt for a long time that regardless of its intended actual WP, anything we make should be able to take 100psi without any negative effects, visible or otherwise. Regards, Harry
Re: boiler test
Harry Wade wrote: At 07:03 AM 8/18/03 -0700, you wrote: My bad. Actually, in checking the plans, I see that the working pressure is 35 psi, not 40, and Gordon DOES suggest testing to 120 psi. Royce Royce, That too isn't as bad as it sounds. I've felt for a long time that regardless of its intended actual WP, anything we make should be able to take 100psi without any negative effects, visible or otherwise. Regards, Harry Well, my thinking at the time was that 140 psi is not all that high, and if the boiler couldn't take that without damage, my confidence in the safety factor would have been badly shaken. 140 psi doesn't seem all that far away from working pressure should water become scarce in the boiler. The important thing is that it held without a problem. Now where's that blower fan ? (Scott, your check is in the mail). :) Thanks to all for your input and support. royce in SB
Re: boiler test
At 04:29 PM 8/18/03 -0700, you wrote: Now where's that blower fan ? (Scott, your check is in the mail). :) Oh no! . . . don't tell me you fell for his old I found a few NOS stuck away in the basement and if you hurry you might get the last one scam?? There's one born every minute. :-) hw
Re: boiler test
Royce and list. Royce, I'm glad you brought up this thread. It has borught a good deal of information out of the woodwork, such as Harrys' measured deformation figures at 200 psi etc. I've filed the message thread for reference too. We are in the throes of getting a boiler code in place for the smaller boilers which fall below the AMBSC code, so all the data we can get is useful. Jim Gregg. Western Australia. At 04:29 PM 8/18/03 -0700, you wrote: Harry Wade wrote: At 07:03 AM 8/18/03 -0700, you wrote: My bad. Actually, in checking the plans, I see that the working pressure is 35 psi, not 40, and Gordon DOES suggest testing to 120 psi. Royce Royce, That too isn't as bad as it sounds. I've felt for a long time that regardless of its intended actual WP, anything we make should be able to take 100psi without any negative effects, visible or otherwise. Regards, Harry Well, my thinking at the time was that 140 psi is not all that high, and if the boiler couldn't take that without damage, my confidence in the safety factor would have been badly shaken. 140 psi doesn't seem all that far away from working pressure should water become scarce in the boiler. The important thing is that it held without a problem. Now where's that blower fan ? (Scott, your check is in the mail). :) Thanks to all for your input and support. royce in SB
Re: boiler test
At 03:23 PM 8/16/03 -0700, you wrote: What pressure? Although Gordon Watson said 120 psi, an extra stroke on the water pump saw 140 for a short time. Royce, 140psi for a boiler designed for 40psi WP!!??? That was totally unnecessary and could have destroyed your boiler for no reason. Regards, Harry
Re: boiler test
Harry Wade wrote: Royce, 140psi for a boiler designed for 40psi WP!!??? That was totally unnecessary and could have destroyed your boiler for no reason. Regards, Harry This shows my ignorance on the subject. An extra 20 psi didn't seem significant. For my education, what could have happened to destroy the boiler ? royce in SB
Re: boiler test
At 09:23 AM 8/17/03 -0700, you wrote: This shows my ignorance on the subject. Royce, Well not really, from the wording of your post it sounded as if Gordon (and Kozo) advised you to test to 3X working pressure which seems very unlikely to me. 2X working pressure for first test new copper boilers is the accepted norm. 1-1/2X on subsequent tests. This definitely not a situation where if a little is good then more is better. I should probably have used another word rather than destroy but that could be one interpretation. What I meant was that the boiler would be unusable for its intended purpose after that test. Although it might be made usable by reworking, straightening, pickling, soldering, etc, why subject yourself to work you've done once already? In a worst case scenario, with a more complex boiler than the Project, over-pressuring on test could break an inaccessible component or connection, an internal stay for instance, where in order to correct or repair the boiler it would have to have major surgery. From a labor/cost standpoint in most cases a failure like thay would cause the boiler to have to be written off. Regards, Harry
Re: boiler test
Harry wrote:- Well not really, from the wording of your post it sounded as if Gordon (and Kozo) advised you to test to 3X working pressure which seems very unlikely to me. As a by-the-by, I have Kozo's Climax book on the desk in front of me. He definitely states 2x, as would any competent boiler designer. Royce reported that the top and bottom plates of his T boiler bulged. This is perfectly normal - just bash them back into shape and re-test. They won't bulge the second time because the bashing will have work hardened them. Mike (been there, done that - just like Harry?)
Re: boiler test
At 07:04 PM 8/17/03 +0100, you wrote: Royce reported that the top and bottom plates of his T boiler bulged. This is perfectly normal - just bash them back into shape and re-test. Mike (been there, done that - just like Harry?) Umm . . . no, not yet, but I expect I'll see any number of curious things should I live long enough. Admittedly I build my ga1 boilers with a bit thicker material than is typical, 16ga heads and Type K (18ga) tubes, and only test to 2X, so bulging even at an over-pressure should be minimal to invisible. I've never mentioned it because it simply wasn't relevant but I did once do a hydro-test on an arch-typical Ga1 boiler, (ie, 2 od x 7, center flue with 16ga heads) and I took it to nearly 200 psi at which point the check valves on my pump failed to hold a seal, but no matter I'd seen what I needed to see. I had set up a DTI on the backhead to measure deflection and deformation and IIRC total deflection at near 200psi was on the order of .015 and deformation, the permanent change in the material, was about .005. Regards, Harry
boiler test
Hey all. Just wanted to say that my 5 tube Philly boiler passed the hydrotest yesterday. First boiler. First time. Man, do I feel lucky. royce in SB
Re: boiler test
You done good Royce! What pressure? Five tubes and all held, that is very good. Gary - Running trains over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor Hey all. Just wanted to say that my 5 tube Philly boiler passed the hydrotest yesterday. First boiler. First time. Man, do I feel lucky. royce in SB
Re: boiler test
Gary wrote: What pressure? Although Gordon Watson said 120 psi, an extra stroke on the water pump saw 140 for a short time. Sort of bulged the top bottom plates on the vertical tube (it's a T type boiler - 1 1/2 horizontal tube intersecting a 2 dia vertical tube). But I persuaded them back and hope that they won't bulge at operating pressure (40 psi). Five tubes and all held, Just followed Kozo's and Gordon's guidance. I must give credit to Gordon for the alcohol burning boiler design. Without his support I would have never attempted such a project. Feels real good. Man this is a GREAT hobby ! And I'm just beginning. Can't imagine what it'll be like to actually see it run the first time. Contain thyself ! royce in SB
Re: boiler test
Lucky hell, you planned it that way right ?!?!?! - Original Message - From: Royce Woodbury [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 4:19 PM Subject: boiler test Hey all. Just wanted to say that my 5 tube Philly boiler passed the hydrotest yesterday. First boiler. First time. Man, do I feel lucky. royce in SB
Re: boiler test
In a message dated 8/16/03 1:23:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Man, do I feel lucky. Oh sure!!! I know this guy!!! He is so meticulous in his wonderful work, that I would not expect anything less!!! Congrats Royce! It is a great accomplishment. Bob
Fw: Getting water in your boiler
- Original Message - From: paul gamlin To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 12:57 AM Subject: Getting water in your boiler With all this mention about Regner pumps I have a Question or so about the running of the pump. Does it have a check valve .if so can it be run independently of a R/C receiver, If it can, what about putting it in a engine with a just a switch and the correct battery so it can be turned off and on to replenish the boiler water for say in 20 second increments . You could also make a independent unit Water pump battery to pump through a goodall valvewhile the engine is stationary Paul.
