subject:"\[Sursound\] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers\?"

One of the things that should be investigated in conjunction with higher
order Ambisonics material would be to "fade down" the higher order
components as the frequency drops, thus spreading the bass over more
speakers, reducing the strain on the individual speakers whilst maintaining
the spectral balance - hey, wasn't that Richard Lee's Powered Integrated
Sub concept from several years ago?? Doesn't help with first order materiel
but

Dave


On 15 October 2015 at 21:07, Steven Boardman 
wrote:

> I did a test with the genelec 6010s I have.
> The bass distorts way before before any high frequency problems occur, and
> woofer distortion happens before any protection circuit cuts in.. When the
> crossover is made higher, more level can be achieved at those frequencies,
> with less I'll effects. (I didn't push to far as I still need them.:)
> The program material used, was mastered music tracks of various genres.
> Obviously in a mixing situation high frequency overload could be different.
> Subs are a must. The more you have, the more even the response around the
> room?
>
> Steve.
> On 15 Oct 2015 19:18, "Fons Adriaensen"  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 12:14:59PM +0100, Dave Malham wrote:
> >
> > > Indeed, but for real-world signals bass tends (!) to be higher - at
> > least,
> > > if you don't want fried ears - so that's where it shows up.
> >
> > I can only confirm this. The last few months I've been using
> > a room equipped with 36 small Genelecs.
> > Without a quite steep highpass or xover to subs it's fairly
> > easy to drive them into producing a very dirty sound even at
> > moderate levels. You *do* need subs with those, even if you
> > don't want 'club sound'.
> >
> > Ciao,
> >
> > --
> > FA
> >
> > A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
> > It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
> > and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
> >
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
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-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?


On 10/15/2015 10:07 PM, Steven Boardman wrote:

Subs are a must. The more you have, the more even the response around the
room?


Yes, and the better your LF localisation. Ideally, we'd want to do a 
separate decode for the subs, not just simple bass management (although 
the latter is better than nothing, of course).


--
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Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread Steven Boardman

I did a test with the genelec 6010s I have.
The bass distorts way before before any high frequency problems occur, and
woofer distortion happens before any protection circuit cuts in.. When the
crossover is made higher, more level can be achieved at those frequencies,
with less I'll effects. (I didn't push to far as I still need them.:)
The program material used, was mastered music tracks of various genres.
Obviously in a mixing situation high frequency overload could be different.
Subs are a must. The more you have, the more even the response around the
room?

Steve.
On 15 Oct 2015 19:18, "Fons Adriaensen"  wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 12:14:59PM +0100, Dave Malham wrote:
>
> > Indeed, but for real-world signals bass tends (!) to be higher - at
> least,
> > if you don't want fried ears - so that's where it shows up.
>
> I can only confirm this. The last few months I've been using
> a room equipped with 36 small Genelecs.
> Without a quite steep highpass or xover to subs it's fairly
> easy to drive them into producing a very dirty sound even at
> moderate levels. You *do* need subs with those, even if you
> don't want 'club sound'.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
> It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
> and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread Fons Adriaensen

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 03:59:46PM +0200, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:

> We've seen all those outlandish claims of magical waveguides that
> are just fractions of the wavelength in diameter and yet shape the
> sound so wonderfully that a 20Hz beam will travel all the way to the
> moon (using the revolutionary VacuProof™ technology that will
> finally bring cinema-friendly space battles). The problem is, this
> waveshaping is not physically possible.

Yes, it's a simple as that - not physically possible.

If you think in ambisonic (spherical harmonic) terms it's
easy to see why. Orders zero and one correspond to physical 
quantities, pressure and velocity, so these can be generated
directly at any point. Higher order SH can't.

Which means that you can have cardioid subs, or even
supercardioid ones, but anything expected to create more
directional beams will need to be of a size comparable
to wavelenght. 

Can be (and is) done for open-air PA systems using very big
arrays. But not in any normal room, there simply isn't the
space to do it.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread Fons Adriaensen

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 12:14:59PM +0100, Dave Malham wrote:

> Indeed, but for real-world signals bass tends (!) to be higher - at least,
> if you don't want fried ears - so that's where it shows up.

I can only confirm this. The last few months I've been using
a room equipped with 36 small Genelecs.
Without a quite steep highpass or xover to subs it's fairly
easy to drive them into producing a very dirty sound even at
moderate levels. You *do* need subs with those, even if you
don't want 'club sound'.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread Charles Veasey

Thanks everyone for the information!

Using four subs was mentioned a couple of times. I've never used or
experienced more than two in an array. What is the justification? I assume
that given a square room, you'd place one in each corner?

Also - a good point was made regarding the cost effectiveness of using 32
channels in total, i.e: 28.4, instead of 32.2.

As a point of reference, this is the space where I'm hoping to install the
new speakers:
http://www.iaia.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Bach_01.2011.2_sm.jpg

The image shows our 24' diameter hemispherical projection surface. Perhaps
digital dome theaters are particularly suited for Ambisonics given the
spherical shape and the obvious shortcomings of 5.1 in this space. The
video standard is a 'domemaster', a square video with a circular mask.
Theaters must decode the domemaster to 'n' projectors. I would love to see
domemaster videos shipped with an Ambisonics track, so that the sound could
be decoded to 'n' speakers.







On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 8:08 AM, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote:

> On 10/15/2015 03:59 PM, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
>
>> On 10/15/2015 03:41 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>>
>>> What can I say Jorn - we have some and they work - not as well as
>>> adverstised obviously but strip away the hype they have something thta
>>> mor
>>> eor less does as described -  you'll have to wait a while for those
>>> measurements ;)
>>>
>>
>> For now, the low cutoff frequency would be enough.
>>
>> Mind you, I'm not saying that these things cannot be great creative
>> tools. But I'm a sound engineer. I need to deal with the artistic output
>> of other people, in such a way that they are not going to ram the
>> speakers down my throat because half of the spectrum is missing. I need
>> general-purpose speakers, which on a bad day means ten octaves and 110dB
>> peak SPL.
>>
>> We've seen all those outlandish claims of magical waveguides that are
>> just fractions of the wavelength in diameter and yet shape the sound so
>> wonderfully that a 20Hz beam will travel all the way to the moon (using
>> the revolutionary VacuProof™ technology that will finally bring
>> cinema-friendly space battles). The problem is, this waveshaping is not
>> physically possible. You can make a plane wave, but unless it's a huge
>> plane wave with respect to frequency, the edge dispersion will make it
>> fall apart. In the end, it's just a point source with a little dent in
>> it. I don't even need to wait for measurements.
>>
>> Even if you consider ultrasonic systems: at some point, the ultrasound
>> has to be demodulated (it is actually demodulated _everywhere_ in the
>> beam), and then you again have a frequency-dependent radiation pattern.
>> So yes, some years in the future maybe we have an ultrasonic projector
>> that is actually capable of putting a kick drum right in the middle of
>> the room without frying anything in its path. But as soon as the
>> baseband sound materializes, it will be (almost) omnidirectional again.
>>
>>
>>
> Here's an interesting datapoint:
>
> http://www.ultrasonic-audio.com/images/Acouspade_vs_Audio_Spotlight.png
>
> Consider the Acouspade, to the right. The polar pattern is truly nice,
> unless you look at the fact that we are not told what happens below 500 Hz
> (because very likely, nothing much is happening there), and we take note of
> the tiny, tiny dotted line that denotes 4 kHz, which is down by around 18
> dB on-axis, indicating that in the treble range, not much is happening
> either.
>
> This is a wonderful tool if you want to whisper textual information at
> your visitor. But what you are actually perceiving is your amazing ability
> to suspend disbelief in the presence of a friendly voice from your own
> species.
>
>
> --
> Jörn Nettingsmeier
> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
>
> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
> Tonmeister VDT
>
> http://stackingdwarves.net
>
> ___
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?


On 10/15/2015 03:59 PM, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:

On 10/15/2015 03:41 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:

What can I say Jorn - we have some and they work - not as well as
adverstised obviously but strip away the hype they have something thta
mor
eor less does as described -  you'll have to wait a while for those
measurements ;)


For now, the low cutoff frequency would be enough.

Mind you, I'm not saying that these things cannot be great creative
tools. But I'm a sound engineer. I need to deal with the artistic output
of other people, in such a way that they are not going to ram the
speakers down my throat because half of the spectrum is missing. I need
general-purpose speakers, which on a bad day means ten octaves and 110dB
peak SPL.

We've seen all those outlandish claims of magical waveguides that are
just fractions of the wavelength in diameter and yet shape the sound so
wonderfully that a 20Hz beam will travel all the way to the moon (using
the revolutionary VacuProof™ technology that will finally bring
cinema-friendly space battles). The problem is, this waveshaping is not
physically possible. You can make a plane wave, but unless it's a huge
plane wave with respect to frequency, the edge dispersion will make it
fall apart. In the end, it's just a point source with a little dent in
it. I don't even need to wait for measurements.

Even if you consider ultrasonic systems: at some point, the ultrasound
has to be demodulated (it is actually demodulated _everywhere_ in the
beam), and then you again have a frequency-dependent radiation pattern.
So yes, some years in the future maybe we have an ultrasonic projector
that is actually capable of putting a kick drum right in the middle of
the room without frying anything in its path. But as soon as the
baseband sound materializes, it will be (almost) omnidirectional again.




Here's an interesting datapoint:

http://www.ultrasonic-audio.com/images/Acouspade_vs_Audio_Spotlight.png

Consider the Acouspade, to the right. The polar pattern is truly nice, 
unless you look at the fact that we are not told what happens below 500 
Hz (because very likely, nothing much is happening there), and we take 
note of the tiny, tiny dotted line that denotes 4 kHz, which is down by 
around 18 dB on-axis, indicating that in the treble range, not much is 
happening either.


This is a wonderful tool if you want to whisper textual information at 
your visitor. But what you are actually perceiving is your amazing 
ability to suspend disbelief in the presence of a friendly voice from 
your own species.


--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?


On 10/15/2015 03:41 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:

What can I say Jorn - we have some and they work - not as well as
adverstised obviously but strip away the hype they have something thta mor
eor less does as described -  you'll have to wait a while for those
measurements ;)


For now, the low cutoff frequency would be enough.

Mind you, I'm not saying that these things cannot be great creative 
tools. But I'm a sound engineer. I need to deal with the artistic output 
of other people, in such a way that they are not going to ram the 
speakers down my throat because half of the spectrum is missing. I need 
general-purpose speakers, which on a bad day means ten octaves and 110dB 
peak SPL.


We've seen all those outlandish claims of magical waveguides that are 
just fractions of the wavelength in diameter and yet shape the sound so 
wonderfully that a 20Hz beam will travel all the way to the moon (using 
the revolutionary VacuProof™ technology that will finally bring 
cinema-friendly space battles). The problem is, this waveshaping is not 
physically possible. You can make a plane wave, but unless it's a huge 
plane wave with respect to frequency, the edge dispersion will make it 
fall apart. In the end, it's just a point source with a little dent in 
it. I don't even need to wait for measurements.


Even if you consider ultrasonic systems: at some point, the ultrasound 
has to be demodulated (it is actually demodulated _everywhere_ in the 
beam), and then you again have a frequency-dependent radiation pattern. 
So yes, some years in the future maybe we have an ultrasonic projector 
that is actually capable of putting a kick drum right in the middle of 
the room without frying anything in its path. But as soon as the 
baseband sound materializes, it will be (almost) omnidirectional again.



--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

another thing David - the B& W are designed for studio/mastering/audiophile
use and so yes sound emanating from the back and sides are not a good thing
especially in a studio environment when you want to control the acoustics
for neutral monitoring - but thats quite a different application to the one
I am talking about in art installations in which a 360 degree driver might
be useful - Id certainly never use one for mixing !

On 15 October 2015 at 13:49, David Pickett  wrote:

> At 14:35 15-10-15, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
> >For creating true walk around 3d soundscapes with no sweet spot for
> >me a useful tool would be a driver which would be a sphere which put out
> >sounds in all directions (360) - because thats how sound often propogates
> >in real space (eg a twig cracking up a tree will not just put out sound in
> >the 180/90 degree space on one side)
>
> But surely, saying that ignores the fact that in a real room what comes
> out of the back (and sides) will be reflected from the room boundaries.  I
> think this is why the B&W 801 was in its day almost revolutionary.  Because
> hardly any sound came out of the back (or sides) of the speaker cabinet,
> one could put it in almost any room and it would sound the same.
>
> David
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

What can I say Jorn - we have some and they work - not as well as
adverstised obviously but strip away the hype they have something thta mor
eor less does as described -  you'll have to wait a while for those
measurements ;)

On 15 October 2015 at 14:39, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote:

> On 10/15/2015 03:30 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
>> I admit there use of the word "ultrasound" is ridiculous - but they do
>> work
>>
>> On 15 October 2015 at 14:27, Augustine Leudar 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Here you go Jorn - a speaker with a narrow dispersion pattern - (they call
>>> it parametric or sound lazer) :
>>>
>>> http://www.soundlazer.com/what-is-a-parametric-speaker/
>>>
>>
> Hmmm. That website completely fails to amaze me.  ;)
> Show me your polar pattern (per frequency), show me your amplitude
> response, let me look at the phase, then we talk.
>
> Their selling point on page one seems to be "works great in advertising"
> :-D
>
> Not to say this thing can't be amazing fun to play with. But I'm not
> considering it a serious tool unless I can see the specs.
>
> Which will be sobering, unless their other project on kickstarter took off
> as well and they have the PhysicsIsLookingElsewhere™ field working by now.
> ;)
>
>
>
> --
> Jörn Nettingsmeier
> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
>
> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
> Tonmeister VDT
>
> http://stackingdwarves.net
>
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> Sursound mailing list
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> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?


On 10/15/2015 03:30 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:

I admit there use of the word "ultrasound" is ridiculous - but they do work

On 15 October 2015 at 14:27, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:


Here you go Jorn - a speaker with a narrow dispersion pattern - (they call
it parametric or sound lazer) :

http://www.soundlazer.com/what-is-a-parametric-speaker/


Hmmm. That website completely fails to amaze me.  ;)
Show me your polar pattern (per frequency), show me your amplitude 
response, let me look at the phase, then we talk.


Their selling point on page one seems to be "works great in advertising" :-D

Not to say this thing can't be amazing fun to play with. But I'm not 
considering it a serious tool unless I can see the specs.


Which will be sobering, unless their other project on kickstarter took 
off as well and they have the PhysicsIsLookingElsewhere™ field working 
by now. ;)



--
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Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

no - he was saying that speakers with a narrow dispersal dont exist - which
they do. He was also saying that bass radiates more widely than higher
frequencies and is more omin directional - which is true so if speakers are
far apart if you dont have a balanced off axis spectral response then the
whole thing will sound bassier as the lower frequencies will diffuse better
than the higher ones - which is good point. Conclusion : the lsr 305/8 or
any speaker with good off axis response would probably be good for a larger
instalation.

On 15 October 2015 at 14:29, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay 
wrote:

> I think that what Jorn is saying is that a lot of small speakers is not
> good/powerful enough to provide a proper, powerful, dynamic, full range
> point in the space, which is still a very popular gesture in most panning
> methods.
>
>
> Le 15 oct. 2015 à 14:24, Augustine Leudar  a
> écrit :
>
> > Not necessarilly true Jorn - we've had a few pieces at Sarc where all
> > speakers went oomph at the same time - painful
> >
> > On 15 October 2015 at 14:14, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
> > netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/15/2015 11:31 AM, Sebastian Gabler wrote:
> >>
> >>> That's specifically true for the 8010s. Their max SPL @ 1 m is app. 105
> >>> dB per pair, but the long term SPL is only 91 dB, expressly stated that
> >>> it is because of the protection circuit in the manual.
> >>> That being said, with 32 speakers, the SPL is 4 time higher than for 2.
> >>> That's far beyond comfort zone for any listener for the specified
> values.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Careful there. No program material ever uses all speakers for the oomph
> >> passages. Usually it's a very sharply located source that shouts out at
> >> you, which basically means every single speaker has to be able to
> deliver
> >> that oomph, single-handedly. Curse of multichannel. Content doesn't
> scale :(
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jörn Nettingsmeier
> >> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
> >>
> >> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
> >> Tonmeister VDT
> >>
> >> http://stackingdwarves.net
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> >> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

I admit there use of the word "ultrasound" is ridiculous - but they do work

On 15 October 2015 at 14:27, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Here you go Jorn - a speaker with a narrow dispersion pattern - (they call
> it parametric or sound lazer) :
>
> http://www.soundlazer.com/what-is-a-parametric-speaker/
>
> On 15 October 2015 at 14:14, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
> netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/15/2015 02:35 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>>
>>> Possibly ambisonics is different - but not all multichannel audio uses
>>> ambisonics - certainly with vbap for example  if your speakers are wide
>>> apart you don't want a big gap when panning between them then  wider
>>> dispersal would be advantageous if the speakers are very close together I
>>> could see it would introduce coloration when the directivity of the
>>> speakers overlapped - with wavefield synthesis the smaller the gaps
>>> between
>>> speaker cones the higher frequencies can be succesfully spatialised - so
>>> I
>>> guess for wfs more "pinpoint" directivty would be preferred - I may also
>>> be
>>> wrong ! For creating true walk around 3d soundscapes with no sweet spot
>>> for
>>> me a useful tool would be a driver which would be a sphere which put out
>>> sounds in all directions (360) - because thats how sound often propogates
>>> in real space (eg a twig cracking up a tree will not just put out sound
>>> in
>>> the 180/90 degree space on one side) The dispersal pattern of speakers
>>> isnt
>>> often considered when building these kind of systems so its an
>>> interesting
>>> topic !
>>>
>>
>>
>> Speakers with "narrow dispersal patterns" do not exist. All speakers are
>> near-omni in the bass. What a narrow pattern gives you is a longer throw of
>> the HF, which can be useful in traditional sound reinforcement.
>>
>> But in massive multichannel environments, overly directional speakers
>> will add up to a muddy, bass-heavy diffuse field. I'd always go for as wide
>> a coverage angle as possible, unless I have to deal with a really huge
>> space. Since you can't avoid off-axis sound, at least make it spectrally
>> balanced.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jörn Nettingsmeier
>> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
>>
>> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
>> Tonmeister VDT
>>
>> http://stackingdwarves.net
>>
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread Pierre Alexandre Tremblay

I think that what Jorn is saying is that a lot of small speakers is not 
good/powerful enough to provide a proper, powerful, dynamic, full range point 
in the space, which is still a very popular gesture in most panning methods.


Le 15 oct. 2015 à 14:24, Augustine Leudar  a écrit :

> Not necessarilly true Jorn - we've had a few pieces at Sarc where all
> speakers went oomph at the same time - painful
> 
> On 15 October 2015 at 14:14, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
> netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 10/15/2015 11:31 AM, Sebastian Gabler wrote:
>> 
>>> That's specifically true for the 8010s. Their max SPL @ 1 m is app. 105
>>> dB per pair, but the long term SPL is only 91 dB, expressly stated that
>>> it is because of the protection circuit in the manual.
>>> That being said, with 32 speakers, the SPL is 4 time higher than for 2.
>>> That's far beyond comfort zone for any listener for the specified values.
>>> 
>> 
>> Careful there. No program material ever uses all speakers for the oomph
>> passages. Usually it's a very sharply located source that shouts out at
>> you, which basically means every single speaker has to be able to deliver
>> that oomph, single-handedly. Curse of multichannel. Content doesn't scale :(
>> 
>> --
>> Jörn Nettingsmeier
>> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
>> 
>> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
>> Tonmeister VDT
>> 
>> http://stackingdwarves.net
>> 
>> ___
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>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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> 
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

Here you go Jorn - a speaker with a narrow dispersion pattern - (they call
it parametric or sound lazer) :

http://www.soundlazer.com/what-is-a-parametric-speaker/

On 15 October 2015 at 14:14, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote:

> On 10/15/2015 02:35 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
>> Possibly ambisonics is different - but not all multichannel audio uses
>> ambisonics - certainly with vbap for example  if your speakers are wide
>> apart you don't want a big gap when panning between them then  wider
>> dispersal would be advantageous if the speakers are very close together I
>> could see it would introduce coloration when the directivity of the
>> speakers overlapped - with wavefield synthesis the smaller the gaps
>> between
>> speaker cones the higher frequencies can be succesfully spatialised - so I
>> guess for wfs more "pinpoint" directivty would be preferred - I may also
>> be
>> wrong ! For creating true walk around 3d soundscapes with no sweet spot
>> for
>> me a useful tool would be a driver which would be a sphere which put out
>> sounds in all directions (360) - because thats how sound often propogates
>> in real space (eg a twig cracking up a tree will not just put out sound in
>> the 180/90 degree space on one side) The dispersal pattern of speakers
>> isnt
>> often considered when building these kind of systems so its an interesting
>> topic !
>>
>
>
> Speakers with "narrow dispersal patterns" do not exist. All speakers are
> near-omni in the bass. What a narrow pattern gives you is a longer throw of
> the HF, which can be useful in traditional sound reinforcement.
>
> But in massive multichannel environments, overly directional speakers will
> add up to a muddy, bass-heavy diffuse field. I'd always go for as wide a
> coverage angle as possible, unless I have to deal with a really huge space.
> Since you can't avoid off-axis sound, at least make it spectrally balanced.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jörn Nettingsmeier
> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
>
> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
> Tonmeister VDT
>
> http://stackingdwarves.net
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

Not necessarilly true Jorn - we've had a few pieces at Sarc where all
speakers went oomph at the same time - painful

On 15 October 2015 at 14:14, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote:

> On 10/15/2015 11:31 AM, Sebastian Gabler wrote:
>
>> That's specifically true for the 8010s. Their max SPL @ 1 m is app. 105
>> dB per pair, but the long term SPL is only 91 dB, expressly stated that
>> it is because of the protection circuit in the manual.
>> That being said, with 32 speakers, the SPL is 4 time higher than for 2.
>> That's far beyond comfort zone for any listener for the specified values.
>>
>
> Careful there. No program material ever uses all speakers for the oomph
> passages. Usually it's a very sharply located source that shouts out at
> you, which basically means every single speaker has to be able to deliver
> that oomph, single-handedly. Curse of multichannel. Content doesn't scale :(
>
> --
> Jörn Nettingsmeier
> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
>
> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
> Tonmeister VDT
>
> http://stackingdwarves.net
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread Steven Boardman

Well it's more like 2.8m by 3..7m with a very high ceiling slope up towards
the back. It's on a platform in the roof of the building. It is also only
31 speakers really, as the one below is under my chair, and is generally
disconnected. Space is one reason why I want to change to smaller speakers.
Along with improving their quality.
I used a 3d graphics program to place all the speakers away from doors and
windows, but still keeping the angles the same. (vertices and faces of a
dodecahedron) They are all fastened to walls and ceiling. The distances
from centre vary of course.
In reality it works very well with no obstructions in the room unless you
are very tall! :-)
I will make some pictures available when the next upgrade is completed.

Best

Steve
On 15 Oct 2015 12:56, "Augustine Leudar"  wrote:

> 32 speakers in a 3m * 3m space ? Wow - I'd love to see some pictures if you
> get a chance !
>
> On 15 October 2015 at 11:21, Steven Boardman 
> wrote:
>
> > I am currently replacing my 32 passive speaker array with genelec 6010s.
> > These are a cheaper alternative, that are still in stock in a lot of
> > places. They have exactly the same spec, but unbalanced connections.
> Which
> > won't be a problem for small runs. The spl will be fine for a smaller
> room
> > like  mine. It is 3m x 3m. If the protection is a problem roll the
> > crossover higher and get more subs. I currently have 4, but if bass
> > directionality suffers with a higher crossover, I will increase the
> number
> > and put some higher.
> >
> > Good luck
> >
> > Steve
> > On 15 Oct 2015 10:32, "Sebastian Gabler" 
> wrote:
> >
> > > That's specifically true for the 8010s. Their max SPL @ 1 m is app. 105
> > dB
> > > per pair, but the long term SPL is only 91 dB, expressly stated that it
> > is
> > > because of the protection circuit in the manual.
> > > That being said, with 32 speakers, the SPL is 4 time higher than for 2.
> > > That's far beyond comfort zone for any listener for the specified
> values.
> > >
> > > Sebastian
> > >
> > > Am 15.10.2015 um 10:38 schrieb Dave Malham:
> > >
> > >> One thing I would be careful of on small, active speakers is the
> > >> protection
> > >> circuits. Sophisticated protection circuits thermally model (or even
> > >> sense)
> > >> the drivers and reduce the gain if one of them is getting near the
> > limits.
> > >> This can cause weird, signal dependent, image distortions when one of
> > the
> > >> speakers is driven harder and drops in gain (usually in the bass).
> > Because
> > >> the speaker doesn't just switch off, which you would hear, but simply
> > goes
> > >> a bit quieter, in an Ambisonic array of, say, 16 speakers, this
> doesn't
> > >> shout out at you but just subtly distorts the image. Can be a really
> > >> annoying and difficult to diagnose problem, especially when you
> haven't
> > >> heard it before (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). With passive
> > >> speakers, this doesn't happen - you just get the rattle from the cone
> > >> hitting the endstops or the scrape of the melted voice coil against
> the
> > >> sides of the air gap but at least the first of these warns you when
> you
> > >> are
> > >> near to damaging the speakers. Note that with small active speakers in
> > >> particular, getting to 'normal' monitoring levels gets you right into
> > the
> > >> zone where the protection will keep cutting in and out :-(
> > >>
> > >> Dave
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey  >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hello,
> > >>>
> > >>> We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd
> > like
> > >>> to
> > >>> get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now
> I'm
> > >>> thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
> > >>>
> > >>> However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only
> > >>> $350.
> > >>>
> > >>> Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for
> my
> > >>> situation?
> > >>>
> > >>> thanks,
> > >>> Charles
> > >>> -- next part --
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> > >>>
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> > >>
> > >>
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

Yes Jorn - what I mean wide dispersal of a spectrally balanced off axis
response - ie the frequency response doesn't alter radically when you move
up, down, left , right - so to clarify wide dispersal of all frequencies
not just bass

On 15 October 2015 at 14:14, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote:

> On 10/15/2015 02:35 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
>> Possibly ambisonics is different - but not all multichannel audio uses
>> ambisonics - certainly with vbap for example  if your speakers are wide
>> apart you don't want a big gap when panning between them then  wider
>> dispersal would be advantageous if the speakers are very close together I
>> could see it would introduce coloration when the directivity of the
>> speakers overlapped - with wavefield synthesis the smaller the gaps
>> between
>> speaker cones the higher frequencies can be succesfully spatialised - so I
>> guess for wfs more "pinpoint" directivty would be preferred - I may also
>> be
>> wrong ! For creating true walk around 3d soundscapes with no sweet spot
>> for
>> me a useful tool would be a driver which would be a sphere which put out
>> sounds in all directions (360) - because thats how sound often propogates
>> in real space (eg a twig cracking up a tree will not just put out sound in
>> the 180/90 degree space on one side) The dispersal pattern of speakers
>> isnt
>> often considered when building these kind of systems so its an interesting
>> topic !
>>
>
>
> Speakers with "narrow dispersal patterns" do not exist. All speakers are
> near-omni in the bass. What a narrow pattern gives you is a longer throw of
> the HF, which can be useful in traditional sound reinforcement.
>
> But in massive multichannel environments, overly directional speakers will
> add up to a muddy, bass-heavy diffuse field. I'd always go for as wide a
> coverage angle as possible, unless I have to deal with a really huge space.
> Since you can't avoid off-axis sound, at least make it spectrally balanced.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jörn Nettingsmeier
> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
>
> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
> Tonmeister VDT
>
> http://stackingdwarves.net
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?


On 10/15/2015 11:31 AM, Sebastian Gabler wrote:

That's specifically true for the 8010s. Their max SPL @ 1 m is app. 105
dB per pair, but the long term SPL is only 91 dB, expressly stated that
it is because of the protection circuit in the manual.
That being said, with 32 speakers, the SPL is 4 time higher than for 2.
That's far beyond comfort zone for any listener for the specified values.


Careful there. No program material ever uses all speakers for the oomph 
passages. Usually it's a very sharply located source that shouts out at 
you, which basically means every single speaker has to be able to 
deliver that oomph, single-handedly. Curse of multichannel. Content 
doesn't scale :(


--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

al lot of my sound installations are outdoors.

On 15 October 2015 at 13:49, David Pickett  wrote:

> At 14:35 15-10-15, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
> >For creating true walk around 3d soundscapes with no sweet spot for
> >me a useful tool would be a driver which would be a sphere which put out
> >sounds in all directions (360) - because thats how sound often propogates
> >in real space (eg a twig cracking up a tree will not just put out sound in
> >the 180/90 degree space on one side)
>
> But surely, saying that ignores the fact that in a real room what comes
> out of the back (and sides) will be reflected from the room boundaries.  I
> think this is why the B&W 801 was in its day almost revolutionary.  Because
> hardly any sound came out of the back (or sides) of the speaker cabinet,
> one could put it in almost any room and it would sound the same.
>
> David
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?


On 10/15/2015 02:35 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:

Possibly ambisonics is different - but not all multichannel audio uses
ambisonics - certainly with vbap for example  if your speakers are wide
apart you don't want a big gap when panning between them then  wider
dispersal would be advantageous if the speakers are very close together I
could see it would introduce coloration when the directivity of the
speakers overlapped - with wavefield synthesis the smaller the gaps between
speaker cones the higher frequencies can be succesfully spatialised - so I
guess for wfs more "pinpoint" directivty would be preferred - I may also be
wrong ! For creating true walk around 3d soundscapes with no sweet spot for
me a useful tool would be a driver which would be a sphere which put out
sounds in all directions (360) - because thats how sound often propogates
in real space (eg a twig cracking up a tree will not just put out sound in
the 180/90 degree space on one side) The dispersal pattern of speakers isnt
often considered when building these kind of systems so its an interesting
topic !



Speakers with "narrow dispersal patterns" do not exist. All speakers are 
near-omni in the bass. What a narrow pattern gives you is a longer throw 
of the HF, which can be useful in traditional sound reinforcement.


But in massive multichannel environments, overly directional speakers 
will add up to a muddy, bass-heavy diffuse field. I'd always go for as 
wide a coverage angle as possible, unless I have to deal with a really 
huge space. Since you can't avoid off-axis sound, at least make it 
spectrally balanced.






--
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Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread David Pickett

At 14:35 15-10-15, Augustine Leudar wrote:

>For creating true walk around 3d soundscapes with no sweet spot for
>me a useful tool would be a driver which would be a sphere which put out
>sounds in all directions (360) - because thats how sound often propogates
>in real space (eg a twig cracking up a tree will not just put out sound in
>the 180/90 degree space on one side)

But surely, saying that ignores the fact that in a real room what 
comes out of the back (and sides) will be reflected from the room 
boundaries.  I think this is why the B&W 801 was in its day almost 
revolutionary.  Because hardly any sound came out of the back (or 
sides) of the speaker cabinet, one could put it in almost any room 
and it would sound the same.

David

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

Possibly ambisonics is different - but not all multichannel audio uses
ambisonics - certainly with vbap for example  if your speakers are wide
apart you don't want a big gap when panning between them then  wider
dispersal would be advantageous if the speakers are very close together I
could see it would introduce coloration when the directivity of the
speakers overlapped - with wavefield synthesis the smaller the gaps between
speaker cones the higher frequencies can be succesfully spatialised - so I
guess for wfs more "pinpoint" directivty would be preferred - I may also be
wrong ! For creating true walk around 3d soundscapes with no sweet spot for
me a useful tool would be a driver which would be a sphere which put out
sounds in all directions (360) - because thats how sound often propogates
in real space (eg a twig cracking up a tree will not just put out sound in
the 180/90 degree space on one side) The dispersal pattern of speakers isnt
often considered when building these kind of systems so its an interesting
topic !

On 15 October 2015 at 13:24, Marc Lavallée  wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 07:08:29 +0200, David Pickett wrote :
> > At 23:17 14-10-15, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> >
> >  >Yeah actually the lsr308 and lsr305 have been getting rave reviews
> >  >and cost very little their waveguide gives wide dispersal (good off
> >  >axis response) which is probably good for spatial audio.
> >
> > Good off axis response, i.e. uncoloured response, is presumably a
> > good thing.  But, intuitively, I should have thought that the more
> > playback channels you have, the less desirable any off axis response
> > would be.  Is this not so?
> >
> > David
>
> I also think that when an ambisonic array is composed of pairs of facing
> loudspeakers, each pair is trying to reconstruct a directional wave. So
> loudspeakers with more directivity would be better. I may be wrong, so
> please comment!
> --
> Marc
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread Marc Lavallée

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 07:08:29 +0200, David Pickett wrote :
> At 23:17 14-10-15, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> 
>  >Yeah actually the lsr308 and lsr305 have been getting rave reviews
>  >and cost very little their waveguide gives wide dispersal (good off
>  >axis response) which is probably good for spatial audio.
> 
> Good off axis response, i.e. uncoloured response, is presumably a 
> good thing.  But, intuitively, I should have thought that the more 
> playback channels you have, the less desirable any off axis response 
> would be.  Is this not so?
> 
> David

I also think that when an ambisonic array is composed of pairs of facing
loudspeakers, each pair is trying to reconstruct a directional wave. So
loudspeakers with more directivity would be better. I may be wrong, so
please comment!
--
Marc
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

32 speakers in a 3m * 3m space ? Wow - I'd love to see some pictures if you
get a chance !

On 15 October 2015 at 11:21, Steven Boardman 
wrote:

> I am currently replacing my 32 passive speaker array with genelec 6010s.
> These are a cheaper alternative, that are still in stock in a lot of
> places. They have exactly the same spec, but unbalanced connections. Which
> won't be a problem for small runs. The spl will be fine for a smaller room
> like  mine. It is 3m x 3m. If the protection is a problem roll the
> crossover higher and get more subs. I currently have 4, but if bass
> directionality suffers with a higher crossover, I will increase the number
> and put some higher.
>
> Good luck
>
> Steve
> On 15 Oct 2015 10:32, "Sebastian Gabler"  wrote:
>
> > That's specifically true for the 8010s. Their max SPL @ 1 m is app. 105
> dB
> > per pair, but the long term SPL is only 91 dB, expressly stated that it
> is
> > because of the protection circuit in the manual.
> > That being said, with 32 speakers, the SPL is 4 time higher than for 2.
> > That's far beyond comfort zone for any listener for the specified values.
> >
> > Sebastian
> >
> > Am 15.10.2015 um 10:38 schrieb Dave Malham:
> >
> >> One thing I would be careful of on small, active speakers is the
> >> protection
> >> circuits. Sophisticated protection circuits thermally model (or even
> >> sense)
> >> the drivers and reduce the gain if one of them is getting near the
> limits.
> >> This can cause weird, signal dependent, image distortions when one of
> the
> >> speakers is driven harder and drops in gain (usually in the bass).
> Because
> >> the speaker doesn't just switch off, which you would hear, but simply
> goes
> >> a bit quieter, in an Ambisonic array of, say, 16 speakers, this doesn't
> >> shout out at you but just subtly distorts the image. Can be a really
> >> annoying and difficult to diagnose problem, especially when you haven't
> >> heard it before (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). With passive
> >> speakers, this doesn't happen - you just get the rattle from the cone
> >> hitting the endstops or the scrape of the melted voice coil against the
> >> sides of the air gap but at least the first of these warns you when you
> >> are
> >> near to damaging the speakers. Note that with small active speakers in
> >> particular, getting to 'normal' monitoring levels gets you right into
> the
> >> zone where the protection will keep cutting in and out :-(
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>
> >> On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd
> like
> >>> to
> >>> get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
> >>> thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
> >>>
> >>> However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only
> >>> $350.
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
> >>> situation?
> >>>
> >>> thanks,
> >>> Charles
> >>> -- next part --
> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> >>>
> >>>
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151014/902db591/attachment.html
> >>> ___
> >>> Sursound mailing list
> >>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> >>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here,
> >>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

Indeed, but for real-world signals bass tends (!) to be higher - at least,
if you don't want fried ears - so that's where it shows up. Indicators for
overload are useful but in a full sphere surround array most of them are
out of sight most of the time so not necessarily helpful.

   Dave

On 15 October 2015 at 11:14, Ilpo Martikainen 
wrote:

> The protection circuits likely trip the tweeter first, as its thermal time
> constant is much shorter than that of woofer. Also the thermal power
> handling of the woofer is much higher. Normally there is an indicator
> turning red if the limits are exceeded and protection is activated. Without
> protection people keep replacing tweeters.
>
>
> Ilpo
>
>
>
>
>
> On 15.10.2015 11:38, "Sursound on behalf of Dave Malham" <
> sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu on behalf of dave.mal...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >One thing I would be careful of on small, active speakers is the
> protection
> >circuits. Sophisticated protection circuits thermally model (or even
> sense)
> >the drivers and reduce the gain if one of them is getting near the limits.
> >This can cause weird, signal dependent, image distortions when one of the
> >speakers is driven harder and drops in gain (usually in the bass). Because
> >the speaker doesn't just switch off, which you would hear, but simply goes
> >a bit quieter, in an Ambisonic array of, say, 16 speakers, this doesn't
> >shout out at you but just subtly distorts the image. Can be a really
> >annoying and difficult to diagnose problem, especially when you haven't
> >heard it before (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). With passive
> >speakers, this doesn't happen - you just get the rattle from the cone
> >hitting the endstops or the scrape of the melted voice coil against the
> >sides of the air gap but at least the first of these warns you when you
> are
> >near to damaging the speakers. Note that with small active speakers in
> >particular, getting to 'normal' monitoring levels gets you right into the
> >zone where the protection will keep cutting in and out :-(
> >
> >   Dave
> >
> >
> >On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd
> like to
> >> get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
> >> thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
> >>
> >> However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only
> $350.
> >>
> >> Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
> >> situation?
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >> Charles
> >> -- next part --
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <
> >>
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151014/902db591/attachment.html
> >> >
> >> ___
> >> Sursound mailing list
> >> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> >> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >
> >As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
> >
> >These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
> >
> >Dave Malham
> >Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
> >The University of York
> >York YO10 5DD
> >UK
> >
> >'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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>



-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

 When I was caught out by this problem the level of info described in
Sebastian's post wasn't in the manuals so I hadn't thought about it - tho'
I *should *have done, given the fact that I designed one for a magazine
some 4 decades ago :-(

Dave

On 15 October 2015 at 10:31, Sebastian Gabler 
wrote:

> That's specifically true for the 8010s. Their max SPL @ 1 m is app. 105 dB
> per pair, but the long term SPL is only 91 dB, expressly stated that it is
> because of the protection circuit in the manual.
> That being said, with 32 speakers, the SPL is 4 time higher than for 2.
> That's far beyond comfort zone for any listener for the specified values.
>
> Sebastian
>
> Am 15.10.2015 um 10:38 schrieb Dave Malham:
>
>> One thing I would be careful of on small, active speakers is the
>> protection
>> circuits. Sophisticated protection circuits thermally model (or even
>> sense)
>> the drivers and reduce the gain if one of them is getting near the limits.
>> This can cause weird, signal dependent, image distortions when one of the
>> speakers is driven harder and drops in gain (usually in the bass). Because
>> the speaker doesn't just switch off, which you would hear, but simply goes
>> a bit quieter, in an Ambisonic array of, say, 16 speakers, this doesn't
>> shout out at you but just subtly distorts the image. Can be a really
>> annoying and difficult to diagnose problem, especially when you haven't
>> heard it before (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). With passive
>> speakers, this doesn't happen - you just get the rattle from the cone
>> hitting the endstops or the scrape of the melted voice coil against the
>> sides of the air gap but at least the first of these warns you when you
>> are
>> near to damaging the speakers. Note that with small active speakers in
>> particular, getting to 'normal' monitoring levels gets you right into the
>> zone where the protection will keep cutting in and out :-(
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>>
>>> We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd like
>>> to
>>> get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
>>> thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
>>>
>>> However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only
>>> $350.
>>>
>>> Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
>>> situation?
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> Charles
>>> -- next part --
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <
>>>
>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151014/902db591/attachment.html
>>> ___
>>> Sursound mailing list
>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> ___
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> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread Steven Boardman

I am currently replacing my 32 passive speaker array with genelec 6010s.
These are a cheaper alternative, that are still in stock in a lot of
places. They have exactly the same spec, but unbalanced connections. Which
won't be a problem for small runs. The spl will be fine for a smaller room
like  mine. It is 3m x 3m. If the protection is a problem roll the
crossover higher and get more subs. I currently have 4, but if bass
directionality suffers with a higher crossover, I will increase the number
and put some higher.

Good luck

Steve
On 15 Oct 2015 10:32, "Sebastian Gabler"  wrote:

> That's specifically true for the 8010s. Their max SPL @ 1 m is app. 105 dB
> per pair, but the long term SPL is only 91 dB, expressly stated that it is
> because of the protection circuit in the manual.
> That being said, with 32 speakers, the SPL is 4 time higher than for 2.
> That's far beyond comfort zone for any listener for the specified values.
>
> Sebastian
>
> Am 15.10.2015 um 10:38 schrieb Dave Malham:
>
>> One thing I would be careful of on small, active speakers is the
>> protection
>> circuits. Sophisticated protection circuits thermally model (or even
>> sense)
>> the drivers and reduce the gain if one of them is getting near the limits.
>> This can cause weird, signal dependent, image distortions when one of the
>> speakers is driven harder and drops in gain (usually in the bass). Because
>> the speaker doesn't just switch off, which you would hear, but simply goes
>> a bit quieter, in an Ambisonic array of, say, 16 speakers, this doesn't
>> shout out at you but just subtly distorts the image. Can be a really
>> annoying and difficult to diagnose problem, especially when you haven't
>> heard it before (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). With passive
>> speakers, this doesn't happen - you just get the rattle from the cone
>> hitting the endstops or the scrape of the melted voice coil against the
>> sides of the air gap but at least the first of these warns you when you
>> are
>> near to damaging the speakers. Note that with small active speakers in
>> particular, getting to 'normal' monitoring levels gets you right into the
>> zone where the protection will keep cutting in and out :-(
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>>
>>> We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd like
>>> to
>>> get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
>>> thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
>>>
>>> However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only
>>> $350.
>>>
>>> Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
>>> situation?
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> Charles
>>> -- next part --
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <
>>>
>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151014/902db591/attachment.html
>>> ___
>>> Sursound mailing list
>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread Ilpo Martikainen

The protection circuits likely trip the tweeter first, as its thermal time 
constant is much shorter than that of woofer. Also the thermal power handling 
of the woofer is much higher. Normally there is an indicator turning red if the 
limits are exceeded and protection is activated. Without protection people keep 
replacing tweeters.


Ilpo





On 15.10.2015 11:38, "Sursound on behalf of Dave Malham" 
 wrote:

>One thing I would be careful of on small, active speakers is the protection
>circuits. Sophisticated protection circuits thermally model (or even sense)
>the drivers and reduce the gain if one of them is getting near the limits.
>This can cause weird, signal dependent, image distortions when one of the
>speakers is driven harder and drops in gain (usually in the bass). Because
>the speaker doesn't just switch off, which you would hear, but simply goes
>a bit quieter, in an Ambisonic array of, say, 16 speakers, this doesn't
>shout out at you but just subtly distorts the image. Can be a really
>annoying and difficult to diagnose problem, especially when you haven't
>heard it before (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). With passive
>speakers, this doesn't happen - you just get the rattle from the cone
>hitting the endstops or the scrape of the melted voice coil against the
>sides of the air gap but at least the first of these warns you when you are
>near to damaging the speakers. Note that with small active speakers in
>particular, getting to 'normal' monitoring levels gets you right into the
>zone where the protection will keep cutting in and out :-(
>
>   Dave
>
>
>On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
>wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd like to
>> get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
>> thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
>>
>> However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only $350.
>>
>> Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
>> situation?
>>
>> thanks,
>> Charles
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151014/902db591/attachment.html
>> >
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
>
>These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
>
>Dave Malham
>Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
>The University of York
>York YO10 5DD
>UK
>
>'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
>-- next part --
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>
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread Sebastian Gabler

That's specifically true for the 8010s. Their max SPL @ 1 m is app. 105
dB per pair, but the long term SPL is only 91 dB, expressly stated that
it is because of the protection circuit in the manual.
That being said, with 32 speakers, the SPL is 4 time higher than for 2.
That's far beyond comfort zone for any listener for the specified values.

Sebastian

Am 15.10.2015 um 10:38 schrieb Dave Malham:

One thing I would be careful of on small, active speakers is the protection
circuits. Sophisticated protection circuits thermally model (or even sense)
the drivers and reduce the gain if one of them is getting near the limits.
This can cause weird, signal dependent, image distortions when one of the
speakers is driven harder and drops in gain (usually in the bass). Because
the speaker doesn't just switch off, which you would hear, but simply goes
a bit quieter, in an Ambisonic array of, say, 16 speakers, this doesn't
shout out at you but just subtly distorts the image. Can be a really
annoying and difficult to diagnose problem, especially when you haven't
heard it before (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). With passive
speakers, this doesn't happen - you just get the rattle from the cone
hitting the endstops or the scrape of the melted voice coil against the
sides of the air gap but at least the first of these warns you when you are
near to damaging the speakers. Note that with small active speakers in
particular, getting to 'normal' monitoring levels gets you right into the
zone where the protection will keep cutting in and out :-(

Dave

On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey
wrote:

Hello,

We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd like to
get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.

However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only $350.

Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
situation?

thanks,
Charles
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread Guillaume Le Nost

Speaking of passive coaxial speakers, maybe this information is gonna be of 
interest for some of you.
L-Acoustics has a new range of 5inches and 8inches products (5XT and X8).
The company is reknown for putting a lot of attention on the polar response / 
off-axis behavior.

I have heard the former 8 inches model (8XT) on a couple of HOA rigs, sounded 
great.

Guillaume

> Le 15 oct. 2015 à 09:38, Dave Malham  a écrit :
> 
> One thing I would be careful of on small, active speakers is the protection
> circuits. Sophisticated protection circuits thermally model (or even sense)
> the drivers and reduce the gain if one of them is getting near the limits.
> This can cause weird, signal dependent, image distortions when one of the
> speakers is driven harder and drops in gain (usually in the bass). Because
> the speaker doesn't just switch off, which you would hear, but simply goes
> a bit quieter, in an Ambisonic array of, say, 16 speakers, this doesn't
> shout out at you but just subtly distorts the image. Can be a really
> annoying and difficult to diagnose problem, especially when you haven't
> heard it before (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). With passive
> speakers, this doesn't happen - you just get the rattle from the cone
> hitting the endstops or the scrape of the melted voice coil against the
> sides of the air gap but at least the first of these warns you when you are
> near to damaging the speakers. Note that with small active speakers in
> particular, getting to 'normal' monitoring levels gets you right into the
> zone where the protection will keep cutting in and out :-(
> 
>   Dave
> 
> 
> On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
> wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd like to
>> get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
>> thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
>> 
>> However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only $350.
>> 
>> Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
>> situation?
>> 
>> thanks,
>> Charles
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151014/902db591/attachment.html
>>> 
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>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
> 
> These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
> 
> Dave Malham
> Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
> The University of York
> York YO10 5DD
> UK
> 
> 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

One thing I would be careful of on small, active speakers is the protection
circuits. Sophisticated protection circuits thermally model (or even sense)
the drivers and reduce the gain if one of them is getting near the limits.
This can cause weird, signal dependent, image distortions when one of the
speakers is driven harder and drops in gain (usually in the bass). Because
the speaker doesn't just switch off, which you would hear, but simply goes
a bit quieter, in an Ambisonic array of, say, 16 speakers, this doesn't
shout out at you but just subtly distorts the image. Can be a really
annoying and difficult to diagnose problem, especially when you haven't
heard it before (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). With passive
speakers, this doesn't happen - you just get the rattle from the cone
hitting the endstops or the scrape of the melted voice coil against the
sides of the air gap but at least the first of these warns you when you are
near to damaging the speakers. Note that with small active speakers in
particular, getting to 'normal' monitoring levels gets you right into the
zone where the protection will keep cutting in and out :-(

   Dave

On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd like to
> get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
> thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
>
> However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only $350.
>
> Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
> situation?
>
> thanks,
> Charles
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These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

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Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-15 Thread Sebastian Gabler

Am 15.10.2015 um 07:08 schrieb David Pickett:

At 23:17 14-10-15, Augustine Leudar wrote:

>Yeah actually the lsr308 and lsr305 have been getting rave reviews 
and cost
>very little their waveguide gives wide dispersal (good off axis 
response)

>which is probably good for spatial audio.

Good off axis response, i.e. uncoloured response, is presumably a good 
thing.  But, intuitively, I should have thought that the more playback 
channels you have, the less desirable any off axis response would be.  
Is this not so?

David

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I think the more channels you have, the more critical becomes coloured 
off-axis response.  Anything that very faintly behaves like a point 
source will produce off-axis distribution.

Sebastian
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

I was wondering about that as I wrote it actually - Sometimes when I have a
large space between speakers I increas the directivity (using ICST) to fill
in holes between speakers when panning - but this is really just spreading
the sound ove rmore speakers rather than relating to the dispersal of an
individual speaker. So in temrs of the disersal of an individual speaker -
pinpoint or wide dispersal - I guess it depends on how far apart your
speakers are ?

On 15 October 2015 at 06:08, David Pickett  wrote:

> At 23:17 14-10-15, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
> >Yeah actually the lsr308 and lsr305 have been getting rave reviews and
> cost
> >very little their waveguide gives wide dispersal (good off axis response)
> >which is probably good for spatial audio.
>
> Good off axis response, i.e. uncoloured response, is presumably a good
> thing.  But, intuitively, I should have thought that the more playback
> channels you have, the less desirable any off axis response would be.  Is
> this not so?
>
> David
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-14 Thread David Pickett

At 23:17 14-10-15, Augustine Leudar wrote:

>Yeah actually the lsr308 and lsr305 have been getting rave reviews and cost
>very little their waveguide gives wide dispersal (good off axis response)
>which is probably good for spatial audio.

Good off axis response, i.e. uncoloured response, is presumably a 
good thing.  But, intuitively, I should have thought that the more 
playback channels you have, the less desirable any off axis response 
would be.  Is this not so?

David

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

Yeah actually the lsr308 and lsr305 have been getting rave reviews and cost
very little their waveguide gives wide dispersal (good off axis response)
which is probably good for spatial audio. Speaker guru Earl Geddes measured
them flatter than his own speakers.  The yamaha hs8 is also popular as a
studio Monitor and cheap . Adam 7x more expensive but seems popular too as
does the aforementioned neuman . I guess I'm trying to echo Ericsson
sentiment - more expensive is not always better.

On Wednesday, 14 October 2015, Eric Benjamin  wrote:

> All of my spatial sound research has been self funded. As such, I'm
> very sensitive to the budgetary issues. I had initially selected the
> then-current genelec 1028a for my array, but then I discovered that the JBL
> lsr25 had flatter response, greater low frequency extension, more acoustic
> output, and cost half as much. The pricing was such that JBL was far
> cheaper here than in Europe.
>
> So, based on that, have a look at the LSR308. It's $250 instead of
> $350 for the genelec, and has an 8" woofer instead of a 3"
> woofer. Give it a listen!
>
> Eric
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-14 Thread Eric Benjamin

All of my spatial sound research has been self funded. As such, I'm very 
sensitive to the budgetary issues. I had initially selected the then-current 
genelec 1028a for my array, but then I discovered that the JBL lsr25 had 
flatter response, greater low frequency extension, more acoustic output, and 
cost half as much. The pricing was such that JBL was far cheaper here than in 
Europe.

So, based on that, have a look at the LSR308. It's $250 instead of $350 for 
the genelec, and has an 8" woofer instead of a 3" woofer. Give it a 
listen!

Eric
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-14 Thread Jörn Nettingsmeier

On 10/14/2015 07:51 PM, Charles Veasey wrote:

Yes, those are too expensive given the spatial resolution I'd like. My
budget is ~$30-40k.

If the 8010s seem too weak, then maybe something like the Genelec 8030B or
Meyer MM-4XPD.

I have been unimpressed by the passive Meyer MM4s, plus the single
wide-band speaker is costly to replace when it blows. Don't know the XPD.

I'd say go with either small Genelecs (8020 should fit the budget), or
check out the Neumann KH120. Both come with a nice range of mounting
options, which will help reduce the installation costs and make the
system more flexible.

There is also a new line of triax Genelecs coming up, but I don't know
if they make small ones (yet).

I've used the Neumanns for a very nice 40-channel setup:
https://stackingdwarves.net/public_stuff/linux_audio/icsa2011/neumann-fotos/6-rigging.jpg

The IEM Graz has used the Genelec 8020 to build their MAMBA mobile
Ambisonics system that has delivered very well at EAA, AES, and ICSA
conferences:

http://iem.kug.ac.at/darmstadt2014/international-summer-course-for-new-music-darmstadt-2014/mamba.html

The speaker management of the more expensive Genelecs is neat, but if
you have the skills in-house to do room equalisation, you can save a lot
of money by doing it the old-fashioned way.

Also, for the computer interface, I'm thinking about RME's HDSPe
RayDAT and M-32
DA / M-16 DA

I would strongly recommend a HDSP MADI in combination with a Directout
Andiamo 2 DA, designed by the same guy who used to make the RME MADI
gear. ADAT is not very reliable stuff, plus it requires the machines to
be close together, 10m max unless you want to test your luck.

If you need a cheaper but less hi-end option, Ferrofish make a very
useful 16 channel AD/DA that has MADI and ADAT I/O.

34 channels is always nasty

And there is a lot to be said for four subs instead of two.

Maybe you should consider 28 tops and four subs, that way the conversion
is more cost-effective.

All best,

Jörn

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Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

apart from genelec and PMC another speaker I see quite often in these kind
of facilities is the Mackie hr824 - the new mark 2 measures well. You can
check anechoic measurements (time and frequency response) of various
different speaker manufacturers here :

http://resolution.nodecube.net/products/products_subcategory.php?subcat=Monitoring

best,
Gus

On 14 October 2015 at 19:48, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> The rme raydat hdspe only costs £420 (600 dollarsish) amazing value I
> thought.
>
> On 14 October 2015 at 19:36, David Pickett  wrote:
>
>> At 19:51 14-10-15, Charles Veasey wrote:
>>
>> >Also, for the computer interface, I'm thinking about RME's HDSPe
>> >RayDAT and M-32
>> >DA / M-16 DA
>>
>> I can say from experience that RME interfaces are first class.  They meet
>> their specs, are reliable, and you can easily get directly in touch with
>> the company through their user forum.  The only downsides are expense (in
>> my opinion, worth it for something that is so solid) and the manuals.: if
>> you read German you are OK, but some of the English translations are a bit
>> of a challenge to a native English speaker.  Neither of these downsides is
>> any reason not to buy, however.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

The rme raydat hdspe only costs £420 (600 dollarsish) amazing value I
thought.

On 14 October 2015 at 19:36, David Pickett  wrote:

> At 19:51 14-10-15, Charles Veasey wrote:
>
> >Also, for the computer interface, I'm thinking about RME's HDSPe
> >RayDAT and M-32
> >DA / M-16 DA
>
> I can say from experience that RME interfaces are first class.  They meet
> their specs, are reliable, and you can easily get directly in touch with
> the company through their user forum.  The only downsides are expense (in
> my opinion, worth it for something that is so solid) and the manuals.: if
> you read German you are OK, but some of the English translations are a bit
> of a challenge to a native English speaker.  Neither of these downsides is
> any reason not to buy, however.
>
> David
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-14 Thread David Pickett

At 19:51 14-10-15, Charles Veasey wrote:

>Also, for the computer interface, I'm thinking about RME's HDSPe
>RayDAT and M-32
>DA / M-16 DA

I can say from experience that RME interfaces are first class.  They 
meet their specs, are reliable, and you can easily get directly in 
touch with the company through their user forum.  The only downsides 
are expense (in my opinion, worth it for something that is so solid) 
and the manuals.: if you read German you are OK, but some of the 
English translations are a bit of a challenge to a native English 
speaker.  Neither of these downsides is any reason not to buy, however.

David

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

ps I have the RME raydat - its a great card - you will need the ADAT
converters as well if you dont already. I had behringer ada8000 but they
blew quite often - a power issue which newer versions dont have. Howver the
new 8200 have no such issues and reportably midas preamps. ada8000 about
150 dollars each 8200 around 250 dollars

On 14 October 2015 at 19:32, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> you might want to consider the PMC tb2s   the are nice speakers . You can
> get an active pair for around 1500 dollars. 8010 will have no bottom end
> its tiny.
>
> On 14 October 2015 at 18:51, Charles Veasey 
> wrote:
>
>> Yes, those are too expensive given the spatial resolution I'd like. My
>> budget is ~$30-40k.
>>
>> If the 8010s seem too weak, then maybe something like the Genelec 8030B or
>> Meyer MM-4XPD.
>>
>> Also, for the computer interface, I'm thinking about RME's HDSPe
>> RayDAT and M-32
>> DA / M-16 DA
>>
>> thanks,
>> Charles
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Augustine Leudar <
>> augustineleu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Maybe out of your budget - but check out the Genelec 8351 a - they also
>> > have a room correction system that will work on arrays of up to 32
>> > speakers.
>> > For those that do not have gear acquisition syndrome here is some
>> > ridiculous holywood styled marketing :
>> >
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lokCwTKjz0E
>> >
>> > For those with G.A.S. - no. Don't click the link.
>> >
>> > On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hello,
>> > >
>> > > We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd
>> like
>> > to
>> > > get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
>> > > thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
>> > >
>> > > However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only
>> > $350.
>> > >
>> > > Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
>> > > situation?
>> > >
>> > > thanks,
>> > > Charles
>> > > -- next part --
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>> > >
>> >
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>> > > >
>> > > ___
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>> >
>> >
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

you might want to consider the PMC tb2s   the are nice speakers . You can
get an active pair for around 1500 dollars. 8010 will have no bottom end
its tiny.

On 14 October 2015 at 18:51, Charles Veasey 
wrote:

> Yes, those are too expensive given the spatial resolution I'd like. My
> budget is ~$30-40k.
>
> If the 8010s seem too weak, then maybe something like the Genelec 8030B or
> Meyer MM-4XPD.
>
> Also, for the computer interface, I'm thinking about RME's HDSPe
> RayDAT and M-32
> DA / M-16 DA
>
> thanks,
> Charles
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Maybe out of your budget - but check out the Genelec 8351 a - they also
> > have a room correction system that will work on arrays of up to 32
> > speakers.
> > For those that do not have gear acquisition syndrome here is some
> > ridiculous holywood styled marketing :
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lokCwTKjz0E
> >
> > For those with G.A.S. - no. Don't click the link.
> >
> > On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd
> like
> > to
> > > get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
> > > thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
> > >
> > > However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only
> > $350.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
> > > situation?
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > Charles
> > > -- next part --
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> > >
> >
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> > > >
> > > ___
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> > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here,
> > > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-14 Thread Martin Richards



Sent from my iPhone

> On 14 Oct 2015, at 18:31, Augustine Leudar  wrote:
> 
> Maybe out of your budget - but check out the Genelec 8351 a - they also
> have a room correction system that will work on arrays of up to 32 speakers.
> For those that do not have gear acquisition syndrome here is some
> ridiculous holywood styled marketing :
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lokCwTKjz0E
> 
> For those with G.A.S. - no. Don't click the link.
> 
> On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
> wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd like to
>> get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
>> thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
>> 
>> However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only $350.
>> 
>> Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
>> situation?
>> 
>> thanks,
>> Charles
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151014/902db591/attachment.html
>>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-14 Thread Ilpo Martikainen

Regarding the room response, delay etc. correction, which would be beneficial 
in this application, the smallest Genelec model having these features is 8320 
(4 in woofer). Next is 8330 with a 5in woofer. 

Best regards,

Ilpo Martikainen

> On 14 Oct 2015, at 20:31, Augustine Leudar  wrote:
> 
> Maybe out of your budget - but check out the Genelec 8351 a - they also
> have a room correction system that will work on arrays of up to 32 speakers.
> For those that do not have gear acquisition syndrome here is some
> ridiculous holywood styled marketing :
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lokCwTKjz0E
> 
> For those with G.A.S. - no. Don't click the link.
> 
> On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
> wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd like to
>> get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
>> thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
>> 
>> However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only $350.
>> 
>> Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
>> situation?
>> 
>> thanks,
>> Charles
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151014/902db591/attachment.html
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-14 Thread Eero Aro


Hi

My current speakers are Genelec 8040's. The sub is 7050B, although it isn't
intended to be used with the 8040:s. I use a designated cross-over for 
the sub.

The 8040 goes down to 48 Hz, so the sub actually only takes care of the
first two octaves.

The stereo imaging is very good. I have also built during the years a lot of
surround setups with Genelec speakers, mainly used S30 Triamps and 1030:s.

I now use the speakers for audio restoration, so I need very accurate 
reproduction

of very tiny details. That's one reason why I chose Genelecs.

Ok - I am Finnish and Genelec is Finnish, so you have the right to think 
that I
am biased. I have been using Genelec loudspeakers from the beginning of 
1980's,

but I don't have any connection with the company or their business.

I have no experience of Behringer speakers, so I cannot compare.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

2015-10-14 Thread Charles Veasey

Yes, those are too expensive given the spatial resolution I'd like. My
budget is ~$30-40k.

If the 8010s seem too weak, then maybe something like the Genelec 8030B or
Meyer MM-4XPD.

Also, for the computer interface, I'm thinking about RME's HDSPe
RayDAT and M-32
DA / M-16 DA

thanks,
Charles



On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Augustine Leudar <
augustineleu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe out of your budget - but check out the Genelec 8351 a - they also
> have a room correction system that will work on arrays of up to 32
> speakers.
> For those that do not have gear acquisition syndrome here is some
> ridiculous holywood styled marketing :
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lokCwTKjz0E
>
> For those with G.A.S. - no. Don't click the link.
>
> On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd like
> to
> > get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
> > thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
> >
> > However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only
> $350.
> >
> > Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
> > situation?
> >
> > thanks,
> > Charles
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?