Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Skyler Hawthorne]

Indeed, this is exactly what I was thinking. From an engineering
maintenance perspective, even if you managed to get something
"working", the result would be an incomprehensible mess. I don't
usually like to speak in such extremes, and I certainly don't mean any
offense, but in this case it's warranted: this is a pretty bad idea.

On Tue, 2020-08-04 at 14:08 -0400, Mike Nice wrote:
> On 8/4/2020 7:21 AM, pangoSE wrote:
> > I suggest we wait for ruffle to be ready and then compile P2 to
> > first wasm and then decompile it into C and then translate it into
> > rust.
> > It can then be cleaned up and shipped to both as a desktop
> > application and a wasm binary run in the browser.
> ruffle ->  wasm -> C -> rust is unlikely to be useful. Sure it might 
> run, but all program comments will have been stripped.  The automatic
> C 
> -> Rust step is likely to generate unsafe mode code that must be
> cleaned 
> up to fully see the benefits of Rust.   And finally, the result
> would 
> not be maintainable over the long term without a huge amount of
> cleanup.
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Mike Nice]

On 8/4/2020 7:21 AM, pangoSE wrote:

I suggest we wait for ruffle to be ready and then compile P2 to first wasm and 
then decompile it into C and then translate it into rust.
It can then be cleaned up and shipped to both as a desktop application and a 
wasm binary run in the browser.
ruffle ->  wasm -> C -> rust is unlikely to be useful. Sure it might 
run, but all program comments will have been stripped.  The automatic C 
-> Rust step is likely to generate unsafe mode code that must be cleaned 
up to fully see the benefits of Rust.   And finally, the result would 
not be maintainable over the long term without a huge amount of cleanup.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Simon Poole]

Am 04.08.2020 um 17:05 schrieb Alexandre Oliveira:
>> At this time nobody is proposing anything more than giving P2 a bit more 
>> life for a small sum of money
> And as myself and others have brought up, it's not a good idea to
> spend money to port P2 from a dead technology to another dead
> technology, if people still use it it's much more beneficial in the
> long term to port it to modern web technologies than have to spend a
> few thousand bucks every once in a while to port a software that's
> pretty important for OSM (even though its usage has decreased over the
> years the changeset amount is still high) to another dead technology.
The problem with that is that it implies 2 to 3 more zeros (at least)
before the decimal point in the costs, and -then- the question really
arises why we are doing that. Literally nobody including Richard has
proposed to spend more money down the road, and given that he tends to
be relatively down to earth I assume he is not expecting eternal support.
>
> As someone (I can't recall who it was) said, "$2500 is not much", then
> if the OSMF wants to spend it on useless efforts (i.e. porting P2 from
> Flash to Air) then why not give it to me then, if the OSMF wants to
> spend this money? :P Jokes aside, if the OSMF really wants to spend
> this money I'd suggest it to be spent somewhere else if the board is
> so keen on setting up life support and going through the stress that
> it is to maintain dead libraries.

The reason is that the users want to continue to use P2 for now (see
discussion in the forum for example). To put this in to perspective we
are talking about a one time spend of about 1 € per head, somewhat less
than what iD costs per year (every year), and at least an order of
magnitude less than the same for JOSM etc.

Simon 




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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 4. Aug 2020, at 16:53, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> but it isn't a good measure of what the OSMF should spend its money on, weere 
> applying an 80/20 rule is likely to be far more appropriate. 
> 

As I have said, I’m fine with spending 2500 on a dead proprietary technology 
because some long term contributors rely on it and because it’s part of our 
legacy, but only because I’m not applying an 80/20 rule, but an 99/1 rule ;-) 
With an 80/20 approach it would not make sense because there are already a lot 
of alternative editing possibilities available.

> . Definitely nobody is going to embark on the multi-million undertaking that 
> writing and bringing to production a new editor is
> 


you are suggesting that the PL2 development is worth several millions of 
dollars/euros/pounds? Let’s remain serious. Several millions would be tens of 
man-years.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 4. Aug 2020, at 16:26, Matthew Woehlke  wrote
> 
> Obviously, this would all almost surely be a temporary mode (maybe it 
> persists as long as JOSM is open, but isn't uploaded), but since you usually 
> draw once, that would be fine. (Bonus points if JOSM could automatically 
> recreate constraints for ways that don't have any. It shouldn't be hard to 
> guess equality, perpendicular and colinear constraints, at least.)


rather than guessing, I sometimes have wished there had been a way to actually 
store relationships (geometric) in the data, something like these buildings all 
align their front facades, or this door (or building position) is aligned to 
this street axis, etc., so when people moved the street, the building would 
move as well. Would become very complex if it would be used extensively 
(basically you might move the whole city by moving a node, or it could lead to 
unresolvable constraints, etc.), so I think it’s not gonna come. Just accept 
some fuzziness ;-)

People are overrating rectangular buildings anyway, they might look more 
correct than a freehand approximation, but they typically aren’t (too short, 
too long, too wide, wrong angle not parallel to the street, not parallel to 
their neighbors, etc.), sometimes resulting from misinterpretation of aerial 
imagery and conscious or unconscious generalization (representing with a single 
rectangle what in reality is a rectangle with an oriel or a cutting or some 
other added shape). And sometimes a lack of diligence (e.g. when a building is 
on the crossing of two roads which aren’t orthogonal, it is not unlikely that 
the building isn’t orthogonal either, and it might be easily visible in the 
imagery, but if you only have a hammer, you might be tempted to use it for the 
screws as well).

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Alexandre Oliveira]

> At this time nobody is proposing anything more than giving P2 a bit more life 
> for a small sum of money

And as myself and others have brought up, it's not a good idea to
spend money to port P2 from a dead technology to another dead
technology, if people still use it it's much more beneficial in the
long term to port it to modern web technologies than have to spend a
few thousand bucks every once in a while to port a software that's
pretty important for OSM (even though its usage has decreased over the
years the changeset amount is still high) to another dead technology.

As someone (I can't recall who it was) said, "$2500 is not much", then
if the OSMF wants to spend it on useless efforts (i.e. porting P2 from
Flash to Air) then why not give it to me then, if the OSMF wants to
spend this money? :P Jokes aside, if the OSMF really wants to spend
this money I'd suggest it to be spent somewhere else if the board is
so keen on setting up life support and going through the stress that
it is to maintain dead libraries.

-- 
Atenciosamente,
Alexandre Oliveira.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Simon Poole]

Could we move all the programming language du jour fanboying, apps that
have nothing to do OSM and other unrelated to the topic discussions
somewhere else please?

And yes it underlines my point that regardless of how exotic the feature
is, you are always going to find somebody that finds it critical to
success (this one of the reasons why JOSM has three variants of
everything), but it isn't a good measure of what the OSMF should spend
its money on, weere applying an 80/20 rule is likely to be far more
appropriate.

At this time nobody is proposing anything more than giving P2 a bit more
life for a small sum of money, if Richard has a plan for longer term
maintenance and development then that should be considered when
proposed. Definitely nobody is going to embark on the multi-million
undertaking that writing and bringing to production a new editor is,
just on the base that it would be cool to write one in .

Simon

Am 04.08.2020 um 16:26 schrieb Matthew Woehlke:
> On 04/08/2020 08.10, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> On 4. Aug 2020, at 13:58, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>>> but I would practically *kill* for JOSM to have FreeCAD's suite of
>>> sketch constraints ;-).
>>
>> you’re aware that there are sketch constraints for configurable
>> angles (90, 60, 45 etc) and projection snaps? Hit 2 times „a“ (angle
>> display becomes green)
> Yes. They're better than nothing, but nowhere near what I'm talking
> about. As an example, consider the attached simple FreeCAD sketch
> which is roughly representative of some buildings I've mapped
> recently. The dome in front is centered (segments on either side
> constrained to be equal). The "wings" in back are symmetrical.
>
> It's *possible* to do this sort of thing in JOSM with a lot of care
> and by building part of the geometry, then constructing a bunch of
> "scratch" geometry in order to construct a symmetry line, then doing a
> copy, paste in place, mirror, reverse, stitch the parts together...
> but God help you if you make a mistake and have to start over.
>
> In FreeCAD, you just slap on some equality constraints, angle
> constraints, parallel constraints, etc. and then you can *move* any of
> the nodes and everything else will update to preserve the applied
> constraints. (The one things it's missing that would be helpful is a
> *colinear* constraint; you have to simulate that with parallel and
> coincident constraints using "construction" lines; those are the blue
> ones. A colinear constraint could eliminate the need for those
> construction lines.) This is the major difference, though. In JOSM,
> constraints only apply when you initially draw something, so if you
> get it wrong, you have to start over. In FreeCAD, they're a dynamic
> system; if you get it wrong, just nudge it and the whole thing updates
> *while preserving your constraints*.
>
> Oh, and *arcs*. The ability to define a segment that should be a
> perfect arc, and optionally make it tangent or perpendicular to its
> neighbors, would be a major boon. Again, I can fake it with a bunch of
> scratch construction, but if it's wrong, I have to start over and hope
> my next guess is better. In FreeCAD, just drag the end points until it
> looks right.
>
> Then there are distance constraints, which would be incredibly useful
> if you're mapping something with known dimensions.
>
> Seriously, give FreeCAD a spin. It's pretty awesome for this sort of
> relatively simple 2D stuff. Also look at some of the buildings I've
> done recently; the symmetrical ones don't just *look* symmetrical,
> they *are* symmetrical (within the limits of JOSM's abilities). I've
> also done a lot of stuff like roads that are perfectly centered in
> between parking spaces, groups of aligned buildings that are
> *actually* aligned, and whatnot. It's do-able, but it would be *s*
> much easier with FreeCAD-style constraints.
>
> Obviously, this would all almost surely be a temporary mode (maybe it
> persists as long as JOSM is open, but isn't uploaded), but since you
> usually draw once, that would be fine. (Bonus points if JOSM could
> automatically recreate constraints for ways that don't have any. It
> shouldn't be hard to guess equality, perpendicular and colinear
> constraints, at least.)
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 04/08/2020 08.10, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

On 4. Aug 2020, at 13:58, Matthew Woehlke wrote:

but I would practically *kill* for JOSM to have FreeCAD's suite of sketch 
constraints ;-).


you’re aware that there are sketch constraints for configurable
angles (90, 60, 45 etc) and projection snaps? Hit 2 times „a“ (angle
display becomes green)
Yes. They're better than nothing, but nowhere near what I'm talking 
about. As an example, consider the attached simple FreeCAD sketch which 
is roughly representative of some buildings I've mapped recently. The 
dome in front is centered (segments on either side constrained to be 
equal). The "wings" in back are symmetrical.


It's *possible* to do this sort of thing in JOSM with a lot of care and 
by building part of the geometry, then constructing a bunch of "scratch" 
geometry in order to construct a symmetry line, then doing a copy, paste 
in place, mirror, reverse, stitch the parts together... but God help you 
if you make a mistake and have to start over.


In FreeCAD, you just slap on some equality constraints, angle 
constraints, parallel constraints, etc. and then you can *move* any of 
the nodes and everything else will update to preserve the applied 
constraints. (The one things it's missing that would be helpful is a 
*colinear* constraint; you have to simulate that with parallel and 
coincident constraints using "construction" lines; those are the blue 
ones. A colinear constraint could eliminate the need for those 
construction lines.) This is the major difference, though. In JOSM, 
constraints only apply when you initially draw something, so if you get 
it wrong, you have to start over. In FreeCAD, they're a dynamic system; 
if you get it wrong, just nudge it and the whole thing updates *while 
preserving your constraints*.


Oh, and *arcs*. The ability to define a segment that should be a perfect 
arc, and optionally make it tangent or perpendicular to its neighbors, 
would be a major boon. Again, I can fake it with a bunch of scratch 
construction, but if it's wrong, I have to start over and hope my next 
guess is better. In FreeCAD, just drag the end points until it looks right.


Then there are distance constraints, which would be incredibly useful if 
you're mapping something with known dimensions.


Seriously, give FreeCAD a spin. It's pretty awesome for this sort of 
relatively simple 2D stuff. Also look at some of the buildings I've done 
recently; the symmetrical ones don't just *look* symmetrical, they *are* 
symmetrical (within the limits of JOSM's abilities). I've also done a 
lot of stuff like roads that are perfectly centered in between parking 
spaces, groups of aligned buildings that are *actually* aligned, and 
whatnot. It's do-able, but it would be *s* much easier with 
FreeCAD-style constraints.


Obviously, this would all almost surely be a temporary mode (maybe it 
persists as long as JOSM is open, but isn't uploaded), but since you 
usually draw once, that would be fine. (Bonus points if JOSM could 
automatically recreate constraints for ways that don't have any. It 
shouldn't be hard to guess equality, perpendicular and colinear 
constraints, at least.)


--
Matthew
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Joseph Eisenberg]

We should not ask anyone to do 2 months development work for 2500 euros.

I believe this size grant is only enough for 1 to 2 weeks, based on
international prices (though
I do not have any paid experience in this field)

- Joseph Eisenberg

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:08 AM pangoSE  wrote:

> I disagree. For that sum of money I would be willing to start writing a
> new editor in Rust compiled to WebAssembly and desktop and reach a state of
> basic editing useability in 2 months.
> See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohuTy8MmbLc
> Cheers
>
> Joseph Eisenberg  skrev: (3 augusti 2020
> 01:00:49 CEST)
>
>> While the benefit of making Potlatch 2 on AIR is small, the cost is tiny.
>>
>> 2500 Euros is an insignificant price to pay for supporting an editor
>> which is still used by a couple of thousand long-term users.
>>
>> I support this expenditure.
>>
>> – Joseph Eisenberg
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 10:05 AM Alexandre Oliveira 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to share my two cents on the matter of supporting Potlatch 2,
>>> an editor built with (now) dead technology.
>>>
>>> I don't think it's worth spending money to update P2 to Air. As others
>>> have stated, Air has been discontinued as well, and it was developed
>>> by Adobe, probably with the same amount of security flaws as Flash
>>> had, which contributed to its demise. I don't see Air as different
>>> even though it's being maintained now by Samsung.
>>>
>>> Just take a look. The web is different than when P2 released; flash is
>>> deprecated and a synonym for vulnerable systems, Air tried to take off
>>> but now it's just another dead technology. What are the benefits of
>>> porting P2 to Air? It may be easier because Air may share some code
>>> with Flash, which in turn makes it easier to port to.
>>>
>>> However, I think that the OSMF should find someone familiar with Flash
>>> and look forward to porting P2 to modern web technologies (please not
>>> Electron!), like WebAssembly or Web 2.0. Be it JavaScript,
>>> CoffeeScript or TypeScript, React, Angular, Vue.js or any other modern
>>> web tech, it doesn't matter. I think it's going to be money well spent
>>> if P2 was ported to a supported web technology and not something that
>>> died a few years ago and is on life support, and barely anyone uses it
>>> nowadays.
>>>
>>> IMO porting P2 to Air is just a waste of money and time from the
>>> developer, and we will reach the same point in the future, be it
>>> either for deprecating P2 or looking to port it to newer web
>>> technologies. OSMF should prepare for the future and not continue
>>> using deprecated technology.
>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 4. Aug 2020, at 13:58, Matthew Woehlke  wrote:
> 
> but I would practically *kill* for JOSM to have FreeCAD's suite of sketch 
> constraints ;-).


you’re aware that there are sketch constraints for configurable angles (90, 60, 
45 etc) and projection snaps? Hit 2 times „a“ (angle display becomes green)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 04/08/2020 05.30, pangoSE wrote:
On older hardware like my 2 core 2ghz laptop iD is slow. Loading 
while saving an edit is slow, while JOSM is always fast and saving 
does not close the edit view so you can continue without waiting for

a browser to load the iD editor again which is also slow.
I want your JVM :-). I have yet to encounter a Java program (including 
JOSM) that isn't sluggish. (JOSM could be worse, but it's nowhere near 
what I'd expect from a well-written *native* application.)



Matthew Woehlke skrev: (3 augusti 2020 16:14:13 CEST)

(¹ iD can 'square up' individual nodes and does a passable job with
*mostly* orthogonal shapes with the odd 45° angle. There are ways to
work with those in JOSM, but generally speaking if you try to square a
shape with a single 'wild' node, JOSM turns the whole thing into a hot
mess.)


This sounds like a bug. Have you reported it?


Ah... I partially retract that. I think the problem is that I'm trying 
to make it work more like iD which permits *selective* squaring. I 
probably have some nodes selected that's making it go bonkers.


Really, this is a missing feature; I want a way to either square up 
individual nodes, or only angles that are within some delta of 90° 
already (and maybe to snap other angles to e.g. 45°).


Meanwhile, I've gotten better at creating scratch geometry to help with 
construction, but I would practically *kill* for JOSM to have FreeCAD's 
suite of sketch constraints ;-).


--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[pangoSE]

Martin Koppenhoefer  skrev: (3 augusti 2020 01:10:09 
CEST)
>
>
>sent from a phone
>
>> On 2. Aug 2020, at 18:11, Guillaume Rischard
> wrote:
>> 
>> As someone who’s listed as having used 9 different editors on
>https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Stereo (including “unknown”), I know how
>important the variety and richness of editing possibilities is.
>
>
>agreed. Admittedly the stats look pretty bad, user numbers have been
>dropping constantly since 2012, in 2015 there were 24000 PL2 users,
>2016: 14700, 2017 1, 2018 6400, 2019 4900 and 2020 only 2500 so
>far, but I am willing to believe that these are mostly long term and
>hardcore contributors, and 2500 is no big money for the
>OpenStreetMap-Foundation, so it may be worth the effort. At least you
>can be sure that in  these 9,7 million edits no imports are hiding ;-)
>and this number makes it 4th for performed edits.
>
>Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[pangoSE]

mmd  skrev: (2 augusti 2020 11:31:21 CEST)
>On 2020-08-01 12:42, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>> Ruffle is showing promise (https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle) and
>is
>> under very active development, but does not yet support AS3 or the
>Flash
>> Player features that P2 needs. I would anticipate that P2 will be
>able
>> to run as WebAssembly when Ruffle reaches feature parity with AIR
>2.6.
>
>Yes, exactly, that's one of the two approaches I had in mind: rewriting
>from scratch preferably also in Rust (which obviously wouldn't fit in
>the proposed budget or timeframe), or use Ruffle with the existing
>code.
>

I suggest we wait for ruffle to be ready and then compile P2 to first wasm and 
then decompile it into C and then translate it into rust.
It can then be cleaned up and shipped to both as a desktop application and a 
wasm binary run in the browser.
See 
https://github.com/wwwg/wasmdec
https://github.com/jameysharp/corrode

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 4. Aug 2020, at 12:28, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> 
> I wrote down what I was there, other people's GPS traces, etc. etc.) and that 
> really needs a desktop editor.


+1, while mobile editors are a great addition to our toolset, they cannot 
substitute desktop editors. A mouse is still much faster and more precise than 
touch input, i.e. for those types of edits where you add or modify a lot of 
geometry, or copy paste information from various sources.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[pangoSE]

I disagree. For that sum of money I would be willing to start writing a new 
editor in Rust compiled to WebAssembly and desktop and reach a state of basic 
editing useability in 2 months.
See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohuTy8MmbLc
Cheers

Joseph Eisenberg  skrev: (3 augusti 2020 01:00:49 
CEST)
>While the benefit of making Potlatch 2 on AIR is small, the cost is
>tiny.
>
>2500 Euros is an insignificant price to pay for supporting an editor
>which
>is still used by a couple of thousand long-term users.
>
>I support this expenditure.
>
>– Joseph Eisenberg
>
>On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 10:05 AM Alexandre Oliveira
>
>wrote:
>
>> I'd like to share my two cents on the matter of supporting Potlatch
>2,
>> an editor built with (now) dead technology.
>>
>> I don't think it's worth spending money to update P2 to Air. As
>others
>> have stated, Air has been discontinued as well, and it was developed
>> by Adobe, probably with the same amount of security flaws as Flash
>> had, which contributed to its demise. I don't see Air as different
>> even though it's being maintained now by Samsung.
>>
>> Just take a look. The web is different than when P2 released; flash
>is
>> deprecated and a synonym for vulnerable systems, Air tried to take
>off
>> but now it's just another dead technology. What are the benefits of
>> porting P2 to Air? It may be easier because Air may share some code
>> with Flash, which in turn makes it easier to port to.
>>
>> However, I think that the OSMF should find someone familiar with
>Flash
>> and look forward to porting P2 to modern web technologies (please not
>> Electron!), like WebAssembly or Web 2.0. Be it JavaScript,
>> CoffeeScript or TypeScript, React, Angular, Vue.js or any other
>modern
>> web tech, it doesn't matter. I think it's going to be money well
>spent
>> if P2 was ported to a supported web technology and not something that
>> died a few years ago and is on life support, and barely anyone uses
>it
>> nowadays.
>>
>> IMO porting P2 to Air is just a waste of money and time from the
>> developer, and we will reach the same point in the future, be it
>> either for deprecating P2 or looking to port it to newer web
>> technologies. OSMF should prepare for the future and not continue
>> using deprecated technology.
>>
>> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Andy Townsend]

On 04/08/2020 11:19, pangoSE wrote:
I would recommend you to use another way to archive this. Open OsmAnd 
on your phone and add a POI directly. You can add tags too if you 
remember them. Then upload directly to OSM.

No JOSM or GPX file handling neccesary.

I use Vespucci for exactly that (no, I'm not on commission - other 
mobile editors are available!) but often you need to take information 
from all sorts of different sources (imagery, my GPS information, what I 
wrote down what I was there, other people's GPS traces, etc. etc.) and 
that really needs a desktop editor.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[pangoSE]

I would recommend you to use another way to archive this. Open OsmAnd on your 
phone and add a POI directly. You can add tags too if you remember them. Then 
upload directly to OSM.
No JOSM or GPX file handling neccesary.

Andy Townsend  skrev: (3 augusti 2020 00:09:44 CEST)
>On 02/08/2020 22:52, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>>> On 2. Aug 2020, at 17:09, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>>>
>>> GPX track waypoint handling is the biggest missing piece of 
>>> functionality for me, so you can start with that one if you wish
>>
>>
>> I guess this is about not handling symbols?
>
>Not really - see 
>https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/6368/in-josm-is-it-possible-to-see-gpx-track-waypoint-details
>
>for information.
>
>If there's a better answer available now (which is entirely possible -
>I 
>asked that question 9 years ago!) then I'd suggest adding it at that 
>help question.  See also 
>https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/7675/josm-is-it-possible-to-convert-an-individual-waypoint-in-a-gpx-file-to-a-node
>
>which is somewhat similar.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[pangoSE]

I agree with this. 

Particularly Rust compiled to WebAssembly look very promising for building 
applications like an editor. Rust is fast and safe and it already has multiple 
OSM related crates. 
See here for an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHJjmsw_Sx0

An editor written in Rust and compiled to WebAssembly would probably be a lot 
faster than iD is today. 
Writing something completely in browser JS these days is not the best way 
forward if speed and portability is is important iMO.

Alexandre Oliveira  skrev: (2 augusti 2020 19:01:23 CEST)
>I'd like to share my two cents on the matter of supporting Potlatch 2,
>an editor built with (now) dead technology.
>
>I don't think it's worth spending money to update P2 to Air. As others
>have stated, Air has been discontinued as well, and it was developed
>by Adobe, probably with the same amount of security flaws as Flash
>had, which contributed to its demise. I don't see Air as different
>even though it's being maintained now by Samsung.
>
>Just take a look. The web is different than when P2 released; flash is
>deprecated and a synonym for vulnerable systems, Air tried to take off
>but now it's just another dead technology. What are the benefits of
>porting P2 to Air? It may be easier because Air may share some code
>with Flash, which in turn makes it easier to port to.
>
>However, I think that the OSMF should find someone familiar with Flash
>and look forward to porting P2 to modern web technologies (please not
>Electron!), like WebAssembly or Web 2.0. Be it JavaScript,
>CoffeeScript or TypeScript, React, Angular, Vue.js or any other modern
>web tech, it doesn't matter. I think it's going to be money well spent
>if P2 was ported to a supported web technology and not something that
>died a few years ago and is on life support, and barely anyone uses it
>nowadays.
>
>IMO porting P2 to Air is just a waste of money and time from the
>developer, and we will reach the same point in the future, be it
>either for deprecating P2 or looking to port it to newer web
>technologies. OSMF should prepare for the future and not continue
>using deprecated technology.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[pangoSE]

Hi

Matthew Woehlke  skrev: (3 augusti 2020 16:14:13 CEST)
>On 02/08/2020 06.05, Simon Poole wrote:
>
>I'm not saying iD is *bad*. It's a very nice editor *for its 
>capabilities*. It's great for making *small* changes or introducing 
>someone to OSM editing... but there are a lot of use cases still where 
>JOSM is just a far superior tool. Maybe in *5-10* years that will 
>change, but I'm not going to hold my breath on it overtaking JOSM in
>1-2.

On older hardware like my 2 core 2ghz laptop iD is slow. Loading while saving 
an edit is slow, while JOSM is always fast and saving does not close the edit 
view so you can continue without waiting for a browser to load the iD editor 
again which is also slow.

>
>(¹ iD can 'square up' individual nodes and does a passable job with 
>*mostly* orthogonal shapes with the odd 45° angle. There are ways to 
>work with those in JOSM, but generally speaking if you try to square a 
>shape with a single 'wild' node, JOSM turns the whole thing into a hot 
>mess.)

This sounds like a bug. Have you reported it?

Cheers 
pangoSE

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 02/08/2020 06.05, Simon Poole wrote:

Extending this a bit further, you could just as well say, given that all
current and actively maintained general purpose editors require 1-2
FTEs, the OSMF should simply block all non-iD editors and tell the
developers to either work on iD or go home.


For OSMF *funding* purposes this might happen, but telling volunteers 
what they should or should not volunteer to work on should be a hard no-go.



iD is branching out in to more and more niches, reducing the
breathing space for anything else massively and other editor use has 
effectively been stagnating for a long time. While people will 
automatically try to start listing special use cases that can "only"

be done with editor XX, the problem is that these are special cases
and unlikely to be worth spending a couple of $100k on per year
(virtually or real) for the small number of users that will remain as
iD gains more and more features.


There are a few things iD does "better" than JOSM¹, but it is *far* from 
feature parity... and one use case which I consider *absolutely 
essential* before it could be considered a JOSM replacement is the 
ability to load and save local files (notably including shapefiles and 
geotiffs) and work on non-OSM layers... and I'm not sure that will ever 
happen. JOSM isn't "really" an OSM editor, it's a GIS tool that 
"happens" to have really good OSM integration. (Note also that these 
features are *mandatory* for doing imports from other GIS data.)


I've been using JOSM a lot lately, and AFAIK iD is quite some ways from 
matching even some of its more "basic" functionality. Angle constrained 
ways, lane view, way smoothing features, ability to mirror content 
(symmetry), and more. Relations are *much* easier in JOSM. Heck, just 
*selecting things* is much easier.


I'm not saying iD is *bad*. It's a very nice editor *for its 
capabilities*. It's great for making *small* changes or introducing 
someone to OSM editing... but there are a lot of use cases still where 
JOSM is just a far superior tool. Maybe in *5-10* years that will 
change, but I'm not going to hold my breath on it overtaking JOSM in 1-2.


(¹ iD can 'square up' individual nodes and does a passable job with 
*mostly* orthogonal shapes with the odd 45° angle. There are ways to 
work with those in JOSM, but generally speaking if you try to square a 
shape with a single 'wild' node, JOSM turns the whole thing into a hot 
mess.)


--
Matthew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Jennings Anderson]

Regarding Potlatch user numbers, here are some more stats: 

http://osm.townsendjennings.com/potlatch.html 


Looks like 300+ users per week are still submitting ~2,000 changesets with 
200k-400k edits via Potlatch (as counted by ‘%potlatch%’ in the created_by tag).

The downward trend in numbers looks bad when compared to 2013, but 300+ mappers 
per week is still quite a lot!

- Jennings

> On Aug 2, 2020, at 5:10 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 2. Aug 2020, at 18:11, Guillaume Rischard  wrote:
>> 
>> As someone who’s listed as having used 9 different editors on 
>> https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Stereo  
>> (including “unknown”), I know how important the variety and richness of 
>> editing possibilities is.
> 
> 
> agreed. Admittedly the stats look pretty bad, user numbers have been dropping 
> constantly since 2012, in 2015 there were 24000 PL2 users, 2016: 14700, 2017 
> 1, 2018 6400, 2019 4900 and 2020 only 2500 so far, but I am willing to 
> believe that these are mostly long term and hardcore contributors, and 2500 
> is no big money for the OpenStreetMap-Foundation, so it may be worth the 
> effort. At least you can be sure that in  these 9,7 million edits no imports 
> are hiding ;-) and this number makes it 4th for performed edits.
> 
> Cheers Martin 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Aug 2020, at 18:11, Guillaume Rischard  wrote:
> 
> As someone who’s listed as having used 9 different editors on 
> https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Stereo (including “unknown”), I know how important 
> the variety and richness of editing possibilities is.


agreed. Admittedly the stats look pretty bad, user numbers have been dropping 
constantly since 2012, in 2015 there were 24000 PL2 users, 2016: 14700, 2017 
1, 2018 6400, 2019 4900 and 2020 only 2500 so far, but I am willing to 
believe that these are mostly long term and hardcore contributors, and 2500 is 
no big money for the OpenStreetMap-Foundation, so it may be worth the effort. 
At least you can be sure that in  these 9,7 million edits no imports are hiding 
;-) and this number makes it 4th for performed edits.

Cheers Martin 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Joseph Eisenberg]

While the benefit of making Potlatch 2 on AIR is small, the cost is tiny.

2500 Euros is an insignificant price to pay for supporting an editor which
is still used by a couple of thousand long-term users.

I support this expenditure.

– Joseph Eisenberg

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 10:05 AM Alexandre Oliveira 
wrote:

> I'd like to share my two cents on the matter of supporting Potlatch 2,
> an editor built with (now) dead technology.
>
> I don't think it's worth spending money to update P2 to Air. As others
> have stated, Air has been discontinued as well, and it was developed
> by Adobe, probably with the same amount of security flaws as Flash
> had, which contributed to its demise. I don't see Air as different
> even though it's being maintained now by Samsung.
>
> Just take a look. The web is different than when P2 released; flash is
> deprecated and a synonym for vulnerable systems, Air tried to take off
> but now it's just another dead technology. What are the benefits of
> porting P2 to Air? It may be easier because Air may share some code
> with Flash, which in turn makes it easier to port to.
>
> However, I think that the OSMF should find someone familiar with Flash
> and look forward to porting P2 to modern web technologies (please not
> Electron!), like WebAssembly or Web 2.0. Be it JavaScript,
> CoffeeScript or TypeScript, React, Angular, Vue.js or any other modern
> web tech, it doesn't matter. I think it's going to be money well spent
> if P2 was ported to a supported web technology and not something that
> died a few years ago and is on life support, and barely anyone uses it
> nowadays.
>
> IMO porting P2 to Air is just a waste of money and time from the
> developer, and we will reach the same point in the future, be it
> either for deprecating P2 or looking to port it to newer web
> technologies. OSMF should prepare for the future and not continue
> using deprecated technology.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3. Aug 2020, at 00:09, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> 
>> I guess this is about not handling symbols?
> 
> 
> Not really - see 
> https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/6368/in-josm-is-it-possible-to-see-gpx-track-waypoint-details
>  for information.


the second answer suggests it is configurable: “ Waypoit labeling can be 
customized in the JOSM Preferences -> Display Settings -> GPS Points -> Waypoit 
labeling (the page which directly opens, when you open the preference window).”

The answers also suggest that displaying an icon is already implemented, but 
there may be few icons available (missing artwork for many symbols)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Andy Townsend]

On 02/08/2020 22:52, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone


On 2. Aug 2020, at 17:09, Andy Townsend  wrote:

GPX track waypoint handling is the biggest missing piece of 
functionality for me, so you can start with that one if you wish



I guess this is about not handling symbols?


Not really - see 
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/6368/in-josm-is-it-possible-to-see-gpx-track-waypoint-details 
for information.


If there's a better answer available now (which is entirely possible - I 
asked that question 9 years ago!) then I'd suggest adding it at that 
help question.  See also 
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/7675/josm-is-it-possible-to-convert-an-individual-waypoint-in-a-gpx-file-to-a-node 
which is somewhat similar.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Aug 2020, at 17:09, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> 
> GPX track waypoint handling is the biggest missing piece of functionality for 
> me, so you can start with that one if you wish


I guess this is about not handling symbols? Because Josm does show waypoints 
and their names. Did you try to open an issue in the josm trac? It seems a 
reasonable problem and the solution seems easy to implement as well (at least 
concetenating the sym value to the name could probably be done in 5 minutes by 
someone who knows the josm code, if you want actual symbols it could be more 
work to find suitable artwork of course, assuming that the garmin symbols are 
copyrighted).
There’s also a visual c program that I used in 2008 on windows to do this, it 
is still around (and maybe can be used with mono?), source code is also 
available, sym2name
http://www.dimitri-junker.de/html/body_openstreetmap.html#sym2name

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

And 2021 will be year of Linux on desktop.
More seriously, maybe in long run 
Windows will fall and Linux will survive
but it is not happening in any near future.
2 Aug 2020, 16:41 by talk@openstreetmap.org:

> Also Linux is the future. Every application that cannot run under Linux will 
> fail in the long run. Remember that Windows shouldn't be the main target 
> platform anymore because it is dying and the society is to blame that they 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Alexandre Oliveira]

I'd like to share my two cents on the matter of supporting Potlatch 2,
an editor built with (now) dead technology.

I don't think it's worth spending money to update P2 to Air. As others
have stated, Air has been discontinued as well, and it was developed
by Adobe, probably with the same amount of security flaws as Flash
had, which contributed to its demise. I don't see Air as different
even though it's being maintained now by Samsung.

Just take a look. The web is different than when P2 released; flash is
deprecated and a synonym for vulnerable systems, Air tried to take off
but now it's just another dead technology. What are the benefits of
porting P2 to Air? It may be easier because Air may share some code
with Flash, which in turn makes it easier to port to.

However, I think that the OSMF should find someone familiar with Flash
and look forward to porting P2 to modern web technologies (please not
Electron!), like WebAssembly or Web 2.0. Be it JavaScript,
CoffeeScript or TypeScript, React, Angular, Vue.js or any other modern
web tech, it doesn't matter. I think it's going to be money well spent
if P2 was ported to a supported web technology and not something that
died a few years ago and is on life support, and barely anyone uses it
nowadays.

IMO porting P2 to Air is just a waste of money and time from the
developer, and we will reach the same point in the future, be it
either for deprecating P2 or looking to port it to newer web
technologies. OSMF should prepare for the future and not continue
using deprecated technology.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Simon Poole]

Am 02.08.2020 um 11:31 schrieb mmd:
> ...
> In a more mid-term, I really like to see a move away from such
> proprietary platforms to an editor that runs in a browser
> out-of-the-box. 

...

Don't we already have that?




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Guillaume Rischard]

Hi Sören,

The OSMF would, of course, be open to supporting development on editors other 
than Potlatch, and on other pieces of our infrastructure. Remember that this is 
a pilot for three projects with three long-term trusted contributors, so we can 
humbly learn how to do this the right way.

As someone who’s listed as having used 9 different editors on 
https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Stereo <https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Stereo> 
(including “unknown”), I know how important the variety and richness of editing 
possibilities is.

Guillaume

> On 1 Aug 2020, at 15:09, Sören Reinecke via talk  <mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:
> 
> > Nonetheless, even if P2 didn't run on Linux, I'm not sure why this should 
> > be an issue for other users. No-one says Vespucci isn't sustainable because 
> > it doesn't run on iOS.
> 
> But Vespucci is not mentioned here by OSMF and I remember that Android is 
> following the principle of free, democracy, open source, competition (because 
> it's distribution like approach though Google as a say in it which apps are 
> installed by default and what can be done with the phone in terms of rooting 
> it. The distribution approach as an argument for priorizing support for 
> Android is therefore questionable) more than iOS does. And iOS restricts you 
> more than Android does.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram
> 
> 
>  Original Message ----
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, 
> osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
> From: Richard Fairhurst 
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>
> CC: 
> 
> 
> Sören Reinecke wrote:
> > So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its 
> > AIR plattform. If that is right, then I am in doubt that 
> > supporting the development of Potlatch 2 is not that in 
> > a sustainable manner.
> 
> AIR is not maintained by Adobe, but by Harman, a Samsung subsidiary. AIR for 
> Linux is still supported at version 2.6 but not updated 
> (https://airsdk.harman.com/faq <https://airsdk.harman.com/faq>): Harman is 
> considering future updates. P2 will still run on 2.6 - there are explicit 
> workarounds in the code (e.g. in 
> net/systemeD/potlatch2/collections/Imagery.as) to ensure backward 
> compatibility.
> 
> Nonetheless, even if P2 didn't run on Linux, I'm not sure why this should be 
> an issue for other users. No-one says Vespucci isn't sustainable because it 
> doesn't run on iOS.
> 
> mmd wrote:
> > Why aren't we porting Potlatch2 to WebAssembly, then? 
> 
> I'm not sure who the "we" is in this question, but assuming you're not 
> volunteering yourself :), the difficult dependency with P2 is not 
> ActionScript 3 but the Flash runtime, i.e. the Flash and Flex APIs. There are 
> currently only two runtimes capable of running P2: Flash Player and AIR. 
> Ruffle is showing promise (https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle 
> <https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle>) and is under very active development, 
> but does not yet support AS3 or the Flash Player features that P2 needs. I 
> would anticipate that P2 will be able to run as WebAssembly when Ruffle 
> reaches feature parity with AIR 2.6.
> 
> Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 8/2/20 14:51, pangoSE wrote:
> I never use nonfree software like flash so I never tried P2. What is so
> special about it? Is there something hindering adding that specialness
> (as a plugin perhaps) to JOSM?

Every single Potlatch user has probably been told 20 times that they
should be switching to JOSM because it is so much better. If they
haven't until now, they never will.

I'd recommend a pragmatic approach here. If we can spend EUR 2500 to
make life easier for those several thousand people using Potlatch
regularly, and most of them doing so because they want and not because
they have no other choice, then why not.

If you look for principles and symbolism, yes Potlatch currently
requires a non-free platform to run, but the OSMF trying to support a
multitude of editors rather than pick one and support only that is IMHO
a positive signal.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-08-02 16:41, Sören Reinecke via talk wrote:

> Also Linux is the future. Every application that cannot run under Linux will 
> fail in the long run. Remember that Windows shouldn't be the main target 
> platform anymore because it is dying and the society is to blame that they 
> don't get it.

Linux is a big part of the future for server platforms, but in its pure
form it has lost the battle for the desktop. Windows and MacOS as
platforms capable of enterprise-level management are not going anywhere
soon. Don't ignore ChromeOS and Android for local "desktops" either -
both are Linux-based of course. 

The biggest dependencies should not be the OS but the runtime
frameworks. This world used to be java-based; these days .NET Core is a
viable competitor, as is Node.js. As a server-side application supplier,
if your product doesn't run in a container, it doesn't exist. Containers
basically mean Linux and Windows. Actual host OS is irrelevant - only
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Mike Nice]

Air is not a zero security risk, but the exposure is much lower than the 
old days of Flash.


I hate the security problems that came from Flash, as well as almost 
anything from Adobe, but I think the premise of this project to improve 
maintainability is important.   Although not part of this proposed 
project, it is a gateway that could allow migration to an open standard 
in the future.



On 8/2/2020 9:49 AM, john whelan wrote:
If Air is proprietary and an Adobe product I strongly suggest avoiding 
it purely from a security point of view. Adobe does not have a good 
reputation in the security world. Comments certainly have been made 
about Flash.


I don't think we should be encouraging the installation of software 
that could cause problems for our mappers.





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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Andy Townsend]

On 02/08/2020 15:41, Sören Reinecke via talk wrote:
Also Linux is the future. Every application that cannot run under 
Linux will fail in the long run. Remember that Windows shouldn't be 
the main target platform anymore because it is dying and the society 
is to blame that they don't get it.



That's crossed off "Poe's law" on my "mailing list bingo" card :)



On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 08:54 pangoSE mailto:pang...@riseup.net>> wrote:


You did not present a single usecase that is not covered
already by one of the other free software editors so I'm
guessing you will have a hard time convincing your peers
to team up around yet another editor, but I might be wrong.

I can't speak for Richard, but over the years I've asked several "how do 
you do X in JOSM" questions - look for ones with JOSM in the title at 
https://help.openstreetmap.org/users/387/someoneelse .  Some of the 
things there were supported by JOSM when I asked (often it's just a 
question of knowing what plugin to install), some weren't when I asked 
but are now, and some still, as far as I am aware, can't be done yet.


If you believe that I'm wrong then please add the relevant information 
to the questions on the OSM help site explain how to do the things that 
I'm asking about (GPX track waypoint handling is the biggest missing 
piece of functionality for me, so you can start with that one if you wish).


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Also Linux is the future. Every application that cannot run under Linux will fail in the long run. Remember that Windows shouldn't be the main target platform anymore because it is dying and the society is to blame that they don't get it.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2From: James To: john whelan CC: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list Personally I use Linux and I fail to see why funding an application that isn't multiplatform. I choose to use linux as scripting/data manipulation is easier than windows.I will not install adobe air as it's discontinued on linux since 2011(security bugs anyone?).  Development and bug fixes on AIR have come to a crawl on other platforms, if you can't seen it's impending death with Web2.0 as well as web assembly, clearly you cannot read the market.On Sun., Aug. 2, 2020, 9:53 a.m. john whelan, <jwhelan0...@gmail.com> wrote:If Air is proprietary and an Adobe product I strongly suggest avoiding it purely from a security point of view.  Adobe does not have a good reputation in the security world.  Comments certainly have been made about Flash.I don't think we should be encouraging the installation of software that could cause problems for our mappers.I accept that for many who know potlatch well there is a cost of learning something new and many are experienced editors who we'd like to see continue but there are tradeoffs and I think security of the software we are asking people to install should be taken into account.Cheerio JohnOn Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 08:54 pangoSE <pang...@riseup.net> wrote:


Is this the platform you are targeting? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIRIts proprietary which makes it prone to the same fate as Flash Player. Why even consider such a move?I never use nonfree software like flash so I never tried P2. What is so special about it? Is there something hindering adding that specialness (as a plugin perhaps) to JOSM?The JOSM devs seem very helpful, supporting and have a friendly culture.I suggest letting this code die as it lures people to install nonfree and therefore dangerous software. Alternatively that you team up with your 20 mio edits-peers and port the code to something that does not require proprietary software. You did not present a single usecase that is not covered already by one of the other free software editors so I'm guessing you will have a hard time convincing your peers to team up around yet another editor, but I might be wrong.I don't care about your ROI arguments because they are based on the not outspoken premise that economics of software development is more important when making decisions than freedom, which is false IMO. If you had compared 2 free software projects like iD and JOSM that run without any proprietary code, then it might have been relevant.I suggest declining support of any software project that is or requires proprietary software to run.Cheers pangoSEPS I use 4 different editors to edit in the database: JOSM, OsmAnd, StreetComplete and rarely iD.Richard Fairhurst <rich...@systemed.net> skrev: (2 augusti 2020 10:28:22 CEST)


Skyler Hawthorne wrote:
> Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to 
> continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful. 
> Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This 
> money is better spent on other uses.

The entire point is to move away from a dead technology (Flash Player) to a supported one (AIR).

On the percentage stat, it's worth bearing in mind that the P2 project is by a long chalk the smallest sum (€2500) of the three that OSMF is proposing here. As a point of comparison, iD was initially developed with a $575,000 grant from the Knight Foundation in 2012, so roughly $646,000 now. Very conservatively estimating the cost of employing 1-2 developers to code on iD since then, you get a development cost of roughly €0.004 per (2020) changeset for iD vs $0.0002 for P2, which is kind of fun.

(I'm actually pleasantly surprised that P2 still has so many changesets - 20 million last year, and I'm guessing high teens this year - given how difficult it is to get Flash Player running in most browsers these days. That suggests that P2's users are using it because they want to do so, not because they are magically unaware of the existence of other editors. I suspect if you could find another way of getting 20 million edits for €2500 then we would snap your hand off.)

Looking forward, and continuing the theme of ROI, the other benefit of the project is that it enables development work to continue on P2. The reason I have bid for funding for this, for the first time in 14 years of developing editors for OpenStreetMap, is that it will take a solid chunk of sustained work to do the AI

Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[James]

Personally I use Linux and I fail to see why funding an application that
isn't multiplatform. I choose to use linux as scripting/data manipulation
is easier than windows.

I will not install adobe air as it's discontinued on linux since
2011(security bugs anyone?).  Development and bug fixes on AIR have come to
a crawl on other platforms, if you can't seen it's impending death with
Web2.0 as well as web assembly, clearly you cannot read the market.

On Sun., Aug. 2, 2020, 9:53 a.m. john whelan,  wrote:

> If Air is proprietary and an Adobe product I strongly suggest avoiding it
> purely from a security point of view.  Adobe does not have a good
> reputation in the security world.  Comments certainly have been made about
> Flash.
>
> I don't think we should be encouraging the installation of software that
> could cause problems for our mappers.
>
> I accept that for many who know potlatch well there is a cost of learning
> something new and many are experienced editors who we'd like to see
> continue but there are tradeoffs and I think security of the software we
> are asking people to install should be taken into account.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 08:54 pangoSE  wrote:
>
>> Is this the platform you are targeting?
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIR
>>
>> Its proprietary which makes it prone to the same fate as Flash Player.
>> Why even consider such a move?
>>
>> I never use nonfree software like flash so I never tried P2. What is so
>> special about it? Is there something hindering adding that specialness (as
>> a plugin perhaps) to JOSM?
>>
>> The JOSM devs seem very helpful, supporting and have a friendly culture.
>>
>> I suggest letting this code die as it lures people to install nonfree and
>> therefore dangerous software. Alternatively that you team up with your 20
>> mio edits-peers and port the code to something that does not require
>> proprietary software.
>>
>> You did not present a single usecase that is not covered already by one
>> of the other free software editors so I'm guessing you will have a hard
>> time convincing your peers to team up around yet another editor, but I
>> might be wrong.
>>
>> I don't care about your ROI arguments because they are based on the not
>> outspoken premise that economics of software development is more important
>> when making decisions than freedom, which is false IMO.
>> If you had compared 2 free software projects like iD and JOSM that run
>> without any proprietary code, then it might have been relevant.
>>
>> I suggest declining support of any software project that is or requires
>> proprietary software to run.
>>
>> Cheers
>> pangoSE
>> PS I use 4 different editors to edit in the database: JOSM, OsmAnd,
>> StreetComplete and rarely iD.
>>
>>
>> Richard Fairhurst  skrev: (2 augusti 2020 10:28:22
>> CEST)
>>>
>>> Skyler Hawthorne wrote:
>>> > Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to
>>> > continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful.
>>> > Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This
>>> > money is better spent on other uses.
>>>
>>> The entire point is to move away from a dead technology (Flash Player)
>>> to a supported one (AIR).
>>>
>>> On the percentage stat, it's worth bearing in mind that the P2 project
>>> is by a long chalk the smallest sum (€2500) of the three that OSMF is
>>> proposing here. As a point of comparison, iD was initially developed with a
>>> $575,000 grant from the Knight Foundation in 2012, so roughly $646,000 now.
>>> Very conservatively estimating the cost of employing 1-2 developers to code
>>> on iD since then, you get a development cost of roughly €0.004 per (2020)
>>> changeset for iD vs $0.0002 for P2, which is kind of fun.
>>>
>>> (I'm actually pleasantly surprised that P2 still has so many changesets
>>> - 20 million last year, and I'm guessing high teens this year - given how
>>> difficult it is to get Flash Player running in most browsers these days.
>>> That suggests that P2's users are using it because they want to do so, not
>>> because they are magically unaware of the existence of other editors. I
>>> suspect if you could find another way of getting 20 million edits for €2500
>>> then we would snap your hand off.)
>>>
>>> Looking forward, and continuing the theme of ROI, the other benefit of
>>> the project is that it enables development work to continue on P2. The
>>> reason I have bid for funding for this, for the first time in 14 years of
>>> developing editors for OpenStreetMap, is that it will take a solid chunk of
>>> sustained work to do the AIR conversion and a bunch of other stuff I
>>> believe will make P2 more sustainable into the future, and there is a hard
>>> deadline for that sustained work (i.e. Flash Player switch-off at the end
>>> of the year). It's not a project that can just be done in evenings here and
>>> there. That enables further, unfunded developments in the future, and in
>>> turn I hope the tra

Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[john whelan]

If Air is proprietary and an Adobe product I strongly suggest avoiding it
purely from a security point of view.  Adobe does not have a good
reputation in the security world.  Comments certainly have been made about
Flash.

I don't think we should be encouraging the installation of software that
could cause problems for our mappers.

I accept that for many who know potlatch well there is a cost of learning
something new and many are experienced editors who we'd like to see
continue but there are tradeoffs and I think security of the software we
are asking people to install should be taken into account.

Cheerio John

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 08:54 pangoSE  wrote:

> Is this the platform you are targeting?
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIR
>
> Its proprietary which makes it prone to the same fate as Flash Player. Why
> even consider such a move?
>
> I never use nonfree software like flash so I never tried P2. What is so
> special about it? Is there something hindering adding that specialness (as
> a plugin perhaps) to JOSM?
>
> The JOSM devs seem very helpful, supporting and have a friendly culture.
>
> I suggest letting this code die as it lures people to install nonfree and
> therefore dangerous software. Alternatively that you team up with your 20
> mio edits-peers and port the code to something that does not require
> proprietary software.
>
> You did not present a single usecase that is not covered already by one of
> the other free software editors so I'm guessing you will have a hard time
> convincing your peers to team up around yet another editor, but I might be
> wrong.
>
> I don't care about your ROI arguments because they are based on the not
> outspoken premise that economics of software development is more important
> when making decisions than freedom, which is false IMO.
> If you had compared 2 free software projects like iD and JOSM that run
> without any proprietary code, then it might have been relevant.
>
> I suggest declining support of any software project that is or requires
> proprietary software to run.
>
> Cheers
> pangoSE
> PS I use 4 different editors to edit in the database: JOSM, OsmAnd,
> StreetComplete and rarely iD.
>
>
> Richard Fairhurst  skrev: (2 augusti 2020 10:28:22
> CEST)
>>
>> Skyler Hawthorne wrote:
>> > Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to
>> > continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful.
>> > Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This
>> > money is better spent on other uses.
>>
>> The entire point is to move away from a dead technology (Flash Player) to
>> a supported one (AIR).
>>
>> On the percentage stat, it's worth bearing in mind that the P2 project is
>> by a long chalk the smallest sum (€2500) of the three that OSMF is
>> proposing here. As a point of comparison, iD was initially developed with a
>> $575,000 grant from the Knight Foundation in 2012, so roughly $646,000 now.
>> Very conservatively estimating the cost of employing 1-2 developers to code
>> on iD since then, you get a development cost of roughly €0.004 per (2020)
>> changeset for iD vs $0.0002 for P2, which is kind of fun.
>>
>> (I'm actually pleasantly surprised that P2 still has so many changesets -
>> 20 million last year, and I'm guessing high teens this year - given how
>> difficult it is to get Flash Player running in most browsers these days.
>> That suggests that P2's users are using it because they want to do so, not
>> because they are magically unaware of the existence of other editors. I
>> suspect if you could find another way of getting 20 million edits for €2500
>> then we would snap your hand off.)
>>
>> Looking forward, and continuing the theme of ROI, the other benefit of
>> the project is that it enables development work to continue on P2. The
>> reason I have bid for funding for this, for the first time in 14 years of
>> developing editors for OpenStreetMap, is that it will take a solid chunk of
>> sustained work to do the AIR conversion and a bunch of other stuff I
>> believe will make P2 more sustainable into the future, and there is a hard
>> deadline for that sustained work (i.e. Flash Player switch-off at the end
>> of the year). It's not a project that can just be done in evenings here and
>> there. That enables further, unfunded developments in the future, and in
>> turn I hope the tradition of other editors taking inspiration from P2 can
>> continue - it's not for nothing that JOSM has a Potlatch 2 style and a
>> "Potlatch mode" for editing.
>>
>> But you are, of course, welcome to develop and put forward a project to
>> OSMF which you believe will have more bang for the buck. "Other uses" is
>> easy to type but doesn't actually mean anything until you identify what
>> those uses are, and crucially, find someone who is prepared to do them.
>>
>> Richard
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[pangoSE]

Is this the platform you are targeting? 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIR

Its proprietary which makes it prone to the same fate as Flash Player. Why even 
consider such a move?

I never use nonfree software like flash so I never tried P2. What is so special 
about it? Is there something hindering adding that specialness (as a plugin 
perhaps) to JOSM?

The JOSM devs seem very helpful, supporting and have a friendly culture.

I suggest letting this code die as it lures people to install nonfree and 
therefore dangerous software. Alternatively that you team up with your 20 mio 
edits-peers and port the code to something that does not require proprietary 
software. 

You did not present a single usecase that is not covered already by one of the 
other free software editors so I'm guessing you will have a hard time 
convincing your peers to team up around yet another editor, but I might be 
wrong.

I don't care about your ROI arguments because they are based on the not 
outspoken premise that economics of software development is more important when 
making decisions than freedom, which is false IMO. 
If you had compared 2 free software projects like iD and JOSM that run without 
any proprietary code, then it might have been relevant.

I suggest declining support of any software project that is or requires 
proprietary software to run.

Cheers 
pangoSE
PS I use 4 different editors to edit in the database: JOSM, OsmAnd, 
StreetComplete and rarely iD.


Richard Fairhurst  skrev: (2 augusti 2020 10:28:22 CEST)
>Skyler Hawthorne wrote:
>> Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to
>> continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful.
>> Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This
>> money is better spent on other uses.
>
>The entire point is to move away from a dead technology (Flash Player)
>to a supported one (AIR).
>
>On the percentage stat, it's worth bearing in mind that the P2 project
>is by a long chalk the smallest sum (€2500) of the three that OSMF is
>proposing here. As a point of comparison, iD was initially developed
>with a $575,000 grant from the Knight Foundation in 2012, so roughly
>$646,000 now. Very conservatively estimating the cost of employing 1-2
>developers to code on iD since then, you get a development cost of
>roughly €0.004 per (2020) changeset for iD vs $0.0002 for P2, which is
>kind of fun.
>
>(I'm actually pleasantly surprised that P2 still has so many changesets
>- 20 million last year, and I'm guessing high teens this year - given
>how difficult it is to get Flash Player running in most browsers these
>days. That suggests that P2's users are using it because they want to
>do so, not because they are magically unaware of the existence of other
>editors. I suspect if you could find another way of getting 20 million
>edits for €2500 then we would snap your hand off.)
>
>Looking forward, and continuing the theme of ROI, the other benefit of
>the project is that it enables development work to continue on P2. The
>reason I have bid for funding for this, for the first time in 14 years
>of developing editors for OpenStreetMap, is that it will take a solid
>chunk of sustained work to do the AIR conversion and a bunch of other
>stuff I believe will make P2 more sustainable into the future, and
>there is a hard deadline for that sustained work (i.e. Flash Player
>switch-off at the end of the year). It's not a project that can just be
>done in evenings here and there. That enables further, unfunded
>developments in the future, and in turn I hope the tradition of other
>editors taking inspiration from P2 can continue - it's not for nothing
>that JOSM has a Potlatch 2 style and a "Potlatch mode" for editing.
>
>But you are, of course, welcome to develop and put forward a project to
>OSMF which you believe will have more bang for the buck. "Other uses"
>is easy to type but doesn't actually mean anything until you identify
>what those uses are, and crucially, find someone who is prepared to do
>them.
>
>Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch

[mmd]

On 2020-08-02 11:55, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> The other is that 
> 2020's P2 users, contrary to the cliche of 2010, are actually pretty
> skilled and experienced (by definition the beginner users use iD
> these days) - many of them have a four-figure number of 
> changesets - so installing AIR shouldn't be beyond them.

Right, my intention wasn't really to allude to any skill level (although
I agree my statement very much reads like it). It's more that casual
mappers typically have lots of other hobbies, and have limited time
available for OSM. As a consequence they'd appreciate an editor that is
easy to work with and accessible without much hassle. Flash was widely
known outside of OSM before Potlatch was available, and I believe having
Flash as a prerequisite was never much of an issue in the last 10+
years, at least initially back in ~2010.

With AIR, I just don't know. I've never used it, and I also don't know
what casual mappers will think about it. Let's be positive, and assume
installation works just like a charm :)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Simon Poole]

Am 02.08.2020 um 01:03 schrieb Skyler Hawthorne:
> ...
>
> Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to
> continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful.
> Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This money
> is better spent on other uses.
> ...

Extending this a bit further, you could just as well say, given that all
current and actively maintained general purpose editors require 1-2
FTEs, the OSMF should simply block all non-iD editors and tell the
developers to either work on iD or go home.

In reality things are not quite that simple,  it starts with measuring
how much use an app actually gets.

While iD outstrips JOSM substantially wrt users (JOSM has less than 10%
market share), a majority of the iD users have a very small number of
edits and are non recurring contributors. This reflects itself in the
edit counts too where the ratio is ~2/3 JOSM and 1/3 id. Naturally JOSM
-currently- tends to get used for larger edits which is likely a major
factor. Given that P2 users are mostly long time OSM contributors that
edit regularly, a similar pattern can be seen, and I think that a one
time update at the proposed cost can easily be justified.

Now medium term, that is 1-2 years, this is likely going to change
substantially. iD is branching out in to more and more niches, reducing
the breathing space for anything else massively and other editor use has
effectively been stagnating for a long time. While people will
automatically try to start listing special use cases that can "only" be
done with editor XX, the problem is that these are special cases and
unlikely to be worth spending a couple of $100k on per year (virtually
or real) for the small number of users that will remain as iD gains more
and more features.

Simon




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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch

[Richard Fairhurst]

mmd wrote:
> I'm wondering if some of the changes that are now needed for AIR
> would make it more difficult to switch to Ruffle later on.

The short answer is (based on the POC work I've done so far) no. :)
The slightly longer answer is that I hope, as part of this project,
to make a number of changes that are not directly AIR-related but
will make P2 maintenance more sustainable into the future.

> I'm a bit worried about AIR being (too) difficult to install
> and run for an average Potlatch user, but that's just a gut feeling.

Couple of things here. One is that AIR isn't any more difficult to
install than Flash Player, but with the difference that it doesn't
break every time there's a browser upgrade and the browser
manufacturer tries to get you to switch it off. The other is that
2020's P2 users, contrary to the cliche of 2010, are actually pretty
skilled and experienced (by definition the beginner users use iD
these days) - many of them have a four-figure number of
changesets - so installing AIR shouldn't be beyond them.

Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[mmd]

On 2020-08-01 12:42, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Ruffle is showing promise (https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle) and is
> under very active development, but does not yet support AS3 or the Flash
> Player features that P2 needs. I would anticipate that P2 will be able
> to run as WebAssembly when Ruffle reaches feature parity with AIR 2.6.

Yes, exactly, that's one of the two approaches I had in mind: rewriting
from scratch preferably also in Rust (which obviously wouldn't fit in
the proposed budget or timeframe), or use Ruffle with the existing code.

I'm wondering if some of the changes that are now needed for AIR would
make it more difficult to switch to Ruffle later on. I clearly see AIR
as some temporary solution to keep running even after Dec 2020, as long
as Ruffle isn't ready yet.

In a more mid-term, I really like to see a move away from such
proprietary platforms to an editor that runs in a browser
out-of-the-box. I'm a bit worried about AIR being (too) difficult to
install and run for an average Potlatch user, but that's just a gut feeling.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Richard Fairhurst]

Skyler Hawthorne wrote:
> Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to
> continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful.
> Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This
> money is better spent on other uses.

The entire point is to move away from a dead technology (Flash Player) to a 
supported one (AIR).

On the percentage stat, it's worth bearing in mind that the P2 project is by a 
long chalk the smallest sum (€2500) of the three that OSMF is proposing here. 
As a point of comparison, iD was initially developed with a $575,000 grant from 
the Knight Foundation in 2012, so roughly $646,000 now. Very conservatively 
estimating the cost of employing 1-2 developers to code on iD since then, you 
get a development cost of roughly €0.004 per (2020) changeset for iD vs $0.0002 
for P2, which is kind of fun.

(I'm actually pleasantly surprised that P2 still has so many changesets - 20 
million last year, and I'm guessing high teens this year - given how difficult 
it is to get Flash Player running in most browsers these days. That suggests 
that P2's users are using it because they want to do so, not because they are 
magically unaware of the existence of other editors. I suspect if you could 
find another way of getting 20 million edits for €2500 then we would snap your 
hand off.)

Looking forward, and continuing the theme of ROI, the other benefit of the 
project is that it enables development work to continue on P2. The reason I 
have bid for funding for this, for the first time in 14 years of developing 
editors for OpenStreetMap, is that it will take a solid chunk of sustained work 
to do the AIR conversion and a bunch of other stuff I believe will make P2 more 
sustainable into the future, and there is a hard deadline for that sustained 
work (i.e. Flash Player switch-off at the end of the year). It's not a project 
that can just be done in evenings here and there. That enables further, 
unfunded developments in the future, and in turn I hope the tradition of other 
editors taking inspiration from P2 can continue - it's not for nothing that 
JOSM has a Potlatch 2 style and a "Potlatch mode" for editing.

But you are, of course, welcome to develop and put forward a project to OSMF 
which you believe will have more bang for the buck. "Other uses" is easy to 
type but doesn't actually mean anything until you identify what those uses are, 
and crucially, find someone who is prepared to do them.

Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Skyler Hawthorne]

On July 31, 2020 20:29:33 Guillaume Rischard  wrote:

Potlatch 2

Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay. While 
usage is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10 million 
(1.2%) changes in 2020.


Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of the 
year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so users who 
still rely on it can continue to use it.


The full proposal is at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop


Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to continue 
support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful. Flash is, for 
all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This money is better spent on 
other uses.

--
Skyler

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

> Nonetheless, even if P2 didn't run on Linux, I'm not sure why this should be an issue for other users. No-one says Vespucci isn't sustainable because it doesn't run on iOS.But Vespucci is not mentioned here by OSMF and I remember that Android is following the principle of free, democracy, open source, competition (because it's distribution like approach though Google as a say in it which apps are installed by default and what can be done with the phone in terms of rooting it. The distribution approach as an argument for priorizing support for Android is therefore questionable) more than iOS does. And iOS restricts you more than Android does.RegardsSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message ----Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2From: Richard Fairhurst To: talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: 



Sören Reinecke wrote:

> So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its 
> AIR plattform. If that is right, then I am in doubt that 
> supporting the development of Potlatch 2 is not that in 
> a sustainable manner.

AIR is not maintained by Adobe, but by Harman, a Samsung subsidiary. AIR for Linux is still supported at version 2.6 but not updated (https://airsdk.harman.com/faq): Harman is considering future updates. P2 will still run on 2.6 - there are explicit workarounds in the code (e.g. in net/systemeD/potlatch2/collections/Imagery.as) to ensure backward compatibility.

Nonetheless, even if P2 didn't run on Linux, I'm not sure why this should be an issue for other users. No-one says Vespucci isn't sustainable because it doesn't run on iOS.

mmd wrote:

> Why aren't we porting Potlatch2 to WebAssembly, then? 

I'm not sure who the "we" is in this question, but assuming you're not volunteering yourself :), the difficult dependency with P2 is not ActionScript 3 but the Flash runtime, i.e. the Flash and Flex APIs. There are currently only two runtimes capable of running P2: Flash Player and AIR. Ruffle is showing promise (https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle) and is under very active development, but does not yet support AS3 or the Flash Player features that P2 needs. I would anticipate that P2 will be able to run as WebAssembly when Ruffle reaches feature parity with AIR 2.6.





Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Aug 2020, at 12:45, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> 
> mmd wrote:
> > Why aren't we porting Potlatch2 to WebAssembly, then? 
> 
> I'm not sure who the "we" is in this question, but assuming you're not 
> volunteering yourself :)


we is the OpenStreetMap-Foundation and in a more enlarged view, the community 
of OpenStreetMappers.
I believe it is legitimate to discuss which projects should get funding, 
because we think they can and should have a future.

Do you know if there is some kind of analytics integrated into adobe air and 
whether it can be turned off?  
I have been checking the terms, and it seems they do track you and it can’t be 
switched off

This is the link:

https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/cc/en/legal/licenses-terms/pdf/Adobe_AIR_32_0.pdf


> 7.7 Use of Adobe Online Services. If your Computer is connected to the 
> Internet, the Software may, without additional notice and on an intermittent 
> or regular basis, facilitate your access to content and services that are 
> hosted on websites maintained by Adobe or its affiliates (“Adobe Online 
> Services”). . If your Computer is connected to the Internet, the Software 
> may, without additional notice, update downloadable materials from these 
> Adobe Online Services so as to provide immediate availability of these Adobe 
> Online Services even when you are offline. When the Software connects to the 
> Internet as a function of an Adobe Online Service, your IP Address, user 
> name, and password may be sent to Adobe’s servers and stored by Adobe in 
> accordance with the Additional Terms of Use or the “help” menu in the 
> Software. This information may be used by Adobe to send you transactional 
> messages to facilitate the Adobe Online Service. Adobe may display in-product 
> marketing to provide information about the Software and other Adobe products 
> and Services, including but not limited to Adobe Online Services, based on 
> certain Software specific features including but not limited to, the version 
> of the Software, including without limitation, platform version, version of 
> the Software, and language. For further information about in-product 
> marketing, please see the “help” menu in the Software. Whenever the Software 
> makes an Internet connection and communicates with an Adobe website, whether 
> automatically or due to explicit user request, the Adobe Online Privacy 
> Policy shall apply. Additionally, unless you are provided with separate terms 
> of use at that time, the Adobe.com Terms of Use 
> (http://www.adobe.com/go/terms) shall apply. Please note that the Adobe 
> Privacy Policy allows tracking of website visits and it addresses in detail 
> the topic of tracking and use of cookies, web beacons, and similar devices.



What I found puzzling: usage is restricted to countries that the US 
administration likes:


> 11. Export Rules.
> You agree that the Software will not be shipped, transferred, or exported 
> into any country or used in any manner prohibited by the United States Export 
> Administration Act or any other export laws, restrictions, or regulations 
> (collectively the “Export Laws”).


Cheers Martin 




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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Guillaume Rischard]

Air will continue to be supported by, believe it or not, Samsung:

https://theblog.adobe.com/the-future-of-adobe-air/ 
<https://theblog.adobe.com/the-future-of-adobe-air/>

> On 1 Aug 2020, at 10:16, Sören Reinecke  wrote:
> 
> So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its AIR plattform. If 
> that is right, then I am in doubt that supporting the development of Potlatch 
> 2 is not that in a sustainable manner.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Sören Reinecke
> 
> 
> ---- Original Message ----
> Subject: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, 
> osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
> From: Guillaume Rischard 
> To: OSMF Talk 
> CC: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving infrastructure. 
> During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make it, but 
> would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure” process, to learn 
> how supporting osm infrastructure projects works well.
> The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by trusted 
> long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We have selected the 
> osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and have a new proposal from 
> Nominatim.
> In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group (EWG) 
> by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and budget 
> management for such projects.
> The Board would like your feedback on these three specific infrastructure 
> projects:
> Nominatim
> 
> Nominatim is the geocoding software that powers openstreetmap.org and many 
> other apps and websites. Sarah wants to work on: <http://openstreetmap.org/>
> finishing the localization efforts (improve address computation for different 
> countries, localized address output)
> making the software more user-friendly (reduce the number of programming 
> languages by at least two, move side-projects into separate repos, reorganise 
> the code so that Nominatim can become an Ubuntu package, docs, docs, docs)
> The full proposal is at 
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07 
> <https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07>
> Potlatch 2
> 
> Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay. While 
> usage is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10 million 
> (1.2%) changes in 2020. 
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editor_usage_stats>
> Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of the 
> year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so users who 
> still rely on it can continue to use it.
> The full proposal is at 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop
>  
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop>
> osm2pgsql
> 
> osm2pgsql loads OpenStreetMap data into databases suitable for applications 
> like rendering into maps, geocoding with Nominatim, or general analysis. It 
> is used on openstreetmap.org and in many other places. 
> <http://openstreetmap.org/>
> While there has been constant paid and volunteer work on osm2pgsql, large 
> scale architecture changes to pay off historical technical debt are needed to 
> tackle long term challenges, and make future changes easier.
> Jochen wants to work on:
> Hosting documentation on osm2pgsql.org <http://osm2pgsql.org/>
> Rethinking the output of the program to make it more concise and useful
> Tackling the refactoring and cleanup of the “middle” code.
> Ongoing maintenance as needed
> Other work from the road map as time permits
> The original budget and scope were limited by the microgrant framework. The 
> current project goes beyond that, and addresses open issues and potential 
> improvements further and better.
> The proposal is at 
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07 
> <https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07>
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you and happy mapping
> 
> Guillaume, for the OSMF board

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Richard Fairhurst]

Sören Reinecke wrote:
> So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its
> AIR plattform. If that is right, then I am in doubt that
> supporting the development of Potlatch 2 is not that in
> a sustainable manner.

AIR is not maintained by Adobe, but by Harman, a Samsung subsidiary. AIR for 
Linux is still supported at version 2.6 but not updated 
(https://airsdk.harman.com/faq): Harman is considering future updates. P2 will 
still run on 2.6 - there are explicit workarounds in the code (e.g. in 
net/systemeD/potlatch2/collections/Imagery.as) to ensure backward compatibility.

Nonetheless, even if P2 didn't run on Linux, I'm not sure why this should be an 
issue for other users. No-one says Vespucci isn't sustainable because it 
doesn't run on iOS.

mmd wrote:
> Why aren't we porting Potlatch2 to WebAssembly, then?

I'm not sure who the "we" is in this question, but assuming you're not 
volunteering yourself :), the difficult dependency with P2 is not ActionScript 
3 but the Flash runtime, i.e. the Flash and Flex APIs. There are currently only 
two runtimes capable of running P2: Flash Player and AIR. Ruffle is showing 
promise (https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle) and is under very active 
development, but does not yet support AS3 or the Flash Player features that P2 
needs. I would anticipate that P2 will be able to run as WebAssembly when 
Ruffle reaches feature parity with AIR 2.6.

Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[mmd]

On 2020-08-01 10:32, Simon Poole wrote:
> That was a good decade ago, nothing that would factor in to a decision
> now (because Linux could not be a target platform to start with). 
> 

The Adobe AIR download page seems to suggest that Adobe AIR is only
available on 64-bit Windows platforms. Do we know how many of our 2500
users would fulfill that requirement?

Why aren't we porting Potlatch2 to WebAssembly, then?

-- 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Simon Poole]

That was a good decade ago, nothing that would factor in to a decision
now (because Linux could not be a target platform to start with). 

Am 01.08.2020 um 10:16 schrieb Sören Reinecke via talk:
> So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its AIR
> plattform. If that is right, then I am in doubt that supporting the
> development of Potlatch 2 is not that in a sustainable manner.
>
> Cheers
>
> Sören Reinecke
>
>
>  Original Message ----
> Subject: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects :
> Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
> From: Guillaume Rischard
> To: OSMF Talk
> CC: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list
>
>
>   Hi all,
>
> The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving
> infrastructure. During the Microgrants process, there were
> proposals that didn’t make it, but would together be a good pilot
> for a “OSM infrastructure” process, to learn how supporting osm
> infrastructure projects works well.
>
> The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed
> by trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We
> have selected the osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and
> have a new proposal from Nominatim.
>
> In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working
> Group (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project
> guidance and budget management for such projects.
>
> The Board would like your feedback on these three specific
> infrastructure projects:
>
>
> Nominatim
>
> Nominatim is the geocoding software that powers openstreetmap.org
> and many other apps and websites. Sarah wants to work on:
> <http://openstreetmap.org/>
>
>  *
>
> finishing the localization efforts (improve address
> computation for different countries, localized address output)
>
>  *
>
> making the software more user-friendly (reduce the number of
> programming languages by at least two, move side-projects into
> separate repos, reorganise the code so that Nominatim can
> become an Ubuntu package, docs, docs, docs)
>
> The full proposal is at
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07
>
>
> Potlatch 2
>
> Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay.
> While usage is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who
> did 10 million (1.2%) changes in 2020.
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editor_usage_stats>
>
> Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end
> of the year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform
> so users who still rely on it can continue to use it.
>
> The full proposal is at
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop
>
>
>
> osm2pgsql
>
> osm2pgsql loads OpenStreetMap data into databases suitable for
> applications like rendering into maps, geocoding with Nominatim,
> or general analysis. It is used on openstreetmap.org and in many
> other places. <http://openstreetmap.org/>
>
> While there has been constant paid and volunteer work on
> osm2pgsql, large scale architecture changes to pay off historical
> technical debt are needed to tackle long term challenges, and make
> future changes easier.
>
> Jochen wants to work on:
>
>  *
>
> Hosting documentation on osm2pgsql.org <http://osm2pgsql.org/>
>
>  *
>
> Rethinking the output of the program to make it more concise
> and useful
>
>  *
>
> Tackling the refactoring and cleanup of the “middle” code.
>
>  *
>
> Ongoing maintenance as needed
>
>  *
>
> Other work from the road map as time permits
>
> The original budget and scope were limited by the microgrant
> framework. The current project goes beyond that, and addresses
> open issues and potential improvements further and better.
>
> The proposal is at
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07
>
>
>
>
> Thank you and happy mapping
>
> Guillaume, for the OSMF board
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its AIR plattform. If that is right, then I am in doubt that supporting the development of Potlatch 2 is not that in a sustainable manner.CheersSören Reinecke Original Message Subject: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2From: Guillaume Rischard To: OSMF Talk CC: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
	
	
	

Hi all,
The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving
infrastructure. During the Microgrants process, there were proposals
that didn’t make it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM
infrastructure” process, to learn how supporting osm infrastructure
projects works well. 

The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by
trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We have
selected the osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and have a
new proposal from Nominatim. 

In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working
Group (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project
guidance and budget management for such projects. 

The Board would like your feedback on these three specific
infrastructure projects: 

Nominatim 

Nominatim is the geocoding software that powers openstreetmap.org
and many other apps and websites. Sarah wants to work on: 


	
	finishing the localization efforts (improve address computation for
	different countries, localized address output) 
	
	
	making the software more user-friendly (reduce the number of
	programming languages by at least two, move side-projects into
	separate repos, reorganise the code so that Nominatim can become an
	Ubuntu package, docs, docs, docs) 
	

The full proposal is at
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07


Potlatch 2 

Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay.
While usage is declining, it’s still
used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10 million (1.2%) changes in 2020. 

Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of
the year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so
users who still rely on it can continue to use it. 

The full proposal is at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop


osm2pgsql 

osm2pgsql loads OpenStreetMap data into databases suitable for
applications like rendering into maps, geocoding with Nominatim, or
general analysis. It is used on openstreetmap.org
and in many other places. 

While there has been constant paid and volunteer work on osm2pgsql,
large scale architecture changes to pay off historical technical debt
are needed to tackle long term challenges, and make future changes
easier. 

Jochen wants to work on: 


	
	Hosting documentation on osm2pgsql.org
	
	
	
	Rethinking the output of the program to make it more concise and
	useful 
	
	
	Tackling the refactoring and cleanup of the “middle” code. 
	
	
	Ongoing maintenance as needed 
	
	
	Other work from the road map as time permits 
	

The original budget and scope were limited by the microgrant
framework. The current project goes beyond that, and addresses open
issues and potential improvements further and better. 

The proposal is at
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07Thank you and happy mappingGuillaume, for the OSMF board___
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[OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Guillaume Rischard]

Hi all,

The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving infrastructure. During 
the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make it, but would 
together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure” process, to learn how 
supporting osm infrastructure projects works well.
The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by trusted 
long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We have selected the 
osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and have a new proposal from 
Nominatim.
In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group (EWG) by 
making it a place for decision making, project guidance and budget management 
for such projects.
The Board would like your feedback on these three specific infrastructure 
projects:
Nominatim

Nominatim is the geocoding software that powers openstreetmap.org and many 
other apps and websites. Sarah wants to work on: 
finishing the localization efforts (improve address computation for different 
countries, localized address output)
making the software more user-friendly (reduce the number of programming 
languages by at least two, move side-projects into separate repos, reorganise 
the code so that Nominatim can become an Ubuntu package, docs, docs, docs)
The full proposal is at 
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07 

Potlatch 2

Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay. While usage 
is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10 million (1.2%) 
changes in 2020. 
Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of the year. 
Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so users who still rely 
on it can continue to use it.
The full proposal is at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop
 

osm2pgsql

osm2pgsql loads OpenStreetMap data into databases suitable for applications 
like rendering into maps, geocoding with Nominatim, or general analysis. It is 
used on openstreetmap.org and in many other places. 
While there has been constant paid and volunteer work on osm2pgsql, large scale 
architecture changes to pay off historical technical debt are needed to tackle 
long term challenges, and make future changes easier.
Jochen wants to work on:
Hosting documentation on osm2pgsql.org 
Rethinking the output of the program to make it more concise and useful
Tackling the refactoring and cleanup of the “middle” code.
Ongoing maintenance as needed
Other work from the road map as time permits
The original budget and scope were limited by the microgrant framework. The 
current project goes beyond that, and addresses open issues and potential 
improvements further and better.
The proposal is at 
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07 




Thank you and happy mapping

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