Re: [TruthTalk]Only 9 of the 10 commandments
Marlin Halverson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When people say that they do not want the law, and that they want to do away with the Old Testement, what they really want to do away with is Jesus Christ because He is the Word made flesh. (John 1) Michael D: Marlin, I think you have to be careful in how you represent what people say... No one wants to do away with the Old Testament. It is God's Word. Jesus said that they testify of Him. The fact is that the OT did not usher in the age of grace through faith, by which we are justified by God. what I find though is that you are neglecting the clear teaching of the NT to hold on to OT types and shadows as requirements from God when God says something totally different. Rom. 10: 4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom. 9: 31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32. Wherefore, because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone... Rom. 7: 4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye are also become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God. Rom. 3:19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20. Therefore, by the deeds of the law there shall shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. Now, Marlin, I can go on and on, but I think that the passages quoted are more than adequate to show, that the law had its place, but not for the Church. Paul says Rom. 6: 14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Now if you, or any one else, want to put yourself under the law, that's clearly your choice, but Paul clearly says that everything (without exception) that the law says is said to those who are under the law. He said that no one is justified by the works of the law. So don't be mistaken, if one depends on the law, he cannot attain to the righteousness of God. And finally, I Timothy 1: 7. Desiring to be teachers of the law: understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8. But we know that the law is good if a man use it lawfully; 9. Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane... 10. ...and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11. According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God , which was committed to my trust. When, then, you desire to bring believers in Christ back under the law, God condems that. Please read Galatians 4. For example, vs 21. Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? vs. 30. Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bond woman shalll not be heir with the son of the free woman. Unfortunately, this is what God will do to all who hold on to the bond woman. Gal 5:4. There is alot to ponder here Marlin. With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs
Re: [TruthTalk]Only 9 of the 10 commandments
Marlin, what say ye? Are you going to address each comment here? Prove me wrong, for I say, you cannot and will not REFUTE each verse and comment. Marlin Halverson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When people say that they do not want the law, and that they want to do away with the Old Testement, what they really want to do away with is Jesus Christ because He is the Word made flesh. (John 1) Michael D: Marlin, I think you have to be careful in how you represent what people say... No one wants to do away with the Old Testament. It is God's Word. Jesus said that they testify of Him. The fact is that the OT did not usher in the age of grace through faith, by which we are justified by God. what I find though is that you are neglecting the clear teaching of the NT to hold on to OT types and shadows as requirements from God when God says something totally different. Rom. 10: 4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom. 9: 31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32. Wherefore, because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone... Rom. 7: 4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye are also become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God. Rom. 3:19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20. Therefore, by the deeds of the law there shall shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. Now, Marlin, I can go on and on, but I think that the passages quoted are more than adequate to show, that the law had its place, but not for the Church. Paul says Rom. 6: 14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Now if you, or any one else, want to put yourself under the law, that's clearly your choice, but Paul clearly says that everything (without exception) that the law says is said to those who are under the law. He said that no one is justified by the works of the law. So don't be mistaken, if one depends on the law, he cannot attain to the righteousness of God. And finally, I Timothy 1: 7. Desiring to be teachers of the law: understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8. But we know that the law is good if a man use it lawfully; 9. Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane... 10. ...and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11. According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God , which was committed to my trust. When, then, you desire to bring believers in Christ back under the law, God condems that. Please read Galatians 4. For example, vs 21. Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? vs. 30. Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bond woman shalll not be heir with the son of the free woman. Unfortunately, this is what God will do to all who hold on to the bond woman. Gal 5:4. There is alot to ponder here Marlin. With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Marlin Halverson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do they not rread in Colossians 2, [? Who is not reading?] Michael D:I humbly submit that it seems like these commentators aren't, neither are you. Read Colossians 2: 16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drinkor in respect of a holy day, on of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. Notice the 'days' are in italics in the KJV. Sounds familiar to me... Doesn't it? With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Michael D: ".walking in the spirit"
So then, if I walk in the spirit I am a law breaker?
--Marlin
Michael D: "These folks just refuse to see that God's sabbath is not a day,
but a relationship of faith in Jesus Christ."
HEB 4:7 Again, he limiteth
a certain day, saying in David, To day, after
so long a
time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his
voice,
harden not your hearts.HEB 4:8 For if Jesus had
given them rest, then would he not afterward
have
spoken of another day.HEB 4:9 There
remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Michael D: "...the seventh day rest that God undertook, is
not now accomplished by faith in Christ. ..."
How does faith in Christ keep the fourth commandment, the
one God said to remember?
Michael D: "...these
folks...refute the transition from the day, to the relationship with
Jesus)."
I can find plenty of evidence of God's people keeping the
weekly Sabbath and holy day Sabbaths after Jesus died on the cross, but there is
no scriptural evidence of a change in the Sabbath commandment, and no scriptural
evidence of a "transition."
On the contrary, the Sabbath, made for
man,establishes our relationship with Jesus because it is the
specialtime He has asked us to keep holy for fellowshipping with
Him. We show our love for God by obeying His commandments.
JOH 14:15 {If ye love me, keep my
commandments.}JOH 14:21 {He that hath my commandments, and
keepeth them, he it is
that
loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and
I will
love him, and will manifest myself to him.}JOH 15:10 {If ye keep
my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as
I have
kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.}
REV 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his
commandments, that they may
have right
to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates
into the
city.
This idea of a "transition" is a doctrine of men; it is
not in the bible.
--Marlin
- Original Message -
From:
michael
douglas
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 8:46
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10
commandments?
Michael D: Marlin, usually, I will not read
someone's commentary presented in answer to my comments in these discussions,
because I am not interested in what any authority's
position, but on what I see in the scriptures. For instance, to say that
Chrisrians have to keep the sabbath, and not only that, but all of the
sabbaths, leads me to wonder at the level of deception these people are
existing. (I do not say that to be unkind, but out of deep concern). Do they
not rread in Colossians 2, where Paul says let no man judge you conc3erning
keeping the sabbath(s), which were only a shadow of things to come, but not
the true, but the body is of christ? Where do these folks get off
contradicting the Gospel of Christ and putting people in bondage that Christ
paid to free us from? That is deep deception.
The fact that Paul said that the sabbaths are a
shadow, and not the real, is the
basis of the NT teaching that the sabbath was a type of our rest in Christ,
through faith. For these folks to condemn that is to deny the salvation that
is in Christ alone, and to nullify His work on the cross for us.
Now, why would any one want the shadow and not the
real, I don't know.
Marlin Halverson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
"...because the commandment of Sabbath
in the NT is our rest in Jesus as I previously mentioned re Hebrews
4."
The following
is from: http://www.cbcg.org/true_sabbath.doc--Marlin
"Many
ministers and theologians have applied the opposite meaning to Hebrews
4:9. They have completely
misinterpreted the King James Version of this verse, which reads, There
remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. They teach that Christians are no
longer required to observe the Sabbath because Jesus Christ has given them
rest by releasing them from commandment keeping and thereby He fulfilled
the law for them. As a result,
they are told that he or she has entered into a spiritual rest from sin
and does not have to keep the commandments of God. Such
reasoning is completely false??? Jesus Himself said that He did not
come to abolish or do away with the laws and commandments of God, but to
fulfill them. Did
you read I Tim 1, that I shared in a previous post? It says thatthere
are people who want to use the law, but miss it altogether. Paul said that
the law is good if a man use it lawfully. It was not made for a righteous
man but for sinners. Did you consider that at
all?Neither did Jesus Christ fulfill any commandment for
anyone in order to release him or her from the obligation to keep them. He set the example for us
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Marlin, YOU, that's YOU, do NOT, that's do NOT, keep the Old Testament Sabbath completely. YOU, that's' YOU, condemn yourself by not completely keeping the Old Testament Sabbath. YOU MUST STONE ME TO DEATH TO KEEP THE OLD TESTAMENT SABBATH. I reject the Old Testament Sabbath. Has Satan blinded you or has your stubbornness which is as witchcraft blinded you? On the contrary, the Sabbath, made for man, establishes our relationship with Jesus because it is the special time He has asked us to keep holy for fellowshipping with Him. We show our love for God by obeying His commandments.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
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Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
David Miller wrote: I think observing passover and
the feast of unleavened bread is wonderful. Paul, being a Jew, kept
these feasts and taught their application to the believer. I have
been in Israel during Passover and the feast of unleavened bread, and
the imagery is fantastic when you have all these hotel owners and
restaurant owners washing all their things outside, getting rid of every
bit of leaven. People meticulously vacuum their cars to make sure
every bit of leaven is gone. When a person understands how this
leaven represents sin, to see all the industry given to making sure the
leaven is all gone, how clear it becomes that we must put away every
speck of sin that might be residing somewhere in our lives.
You have eyes to see this. To me, God's holy days
make sense. Man's counterfeit holidays are empty.
--Marlin
I have Jewish friends who are not
Christian. During Passover and the feast I was visiting one of
these friends in Israel. I asked him if he knew why the Scriptures
told them to get rid of the leaven. Did he know why they were
doing all this. He said no, only that the Torah says to do it.
You should have seen his eyes widen when I explained how our
Christian perspective is that the leaven represents sin, and therefore,
when we come to Christ who is the true passover lamb, we must
immediately put forth all the leaven (sin) in our lives and enter into
his rest. He has lived in this culture his whole life and never
heard that. In my culture, people don't understand what it takes
to get rid of all the leaven in the household. Bringing these cultures
together is wonderful I think.
You have eyes to see this. But, how can you enter
into His rest without keeping the seventh day holy? Sin is the
transgression of the law. Unleavened Bread represents sin during those
days. The flat bread of sincerity and truth shows that we are not to be
all puffed up in our own conceit, but humble. So how can we spiritualize
away the holy Sabbaths of God with the ideas of men and try to say that the
Sabbaths are every day? When do we labor and do all of our work on the six
days? How can we remember a day that is spiritualized into being every
day? And worse of all, pick the day of Sun worshippers to keep holy in
fellowship? --Marlin
The article said: Paul
carries his instruction even further, showing that we have to keep
the Sabbath or lose salvation. "For he that is entered into His
rest [keeping the Sabbath], He also has ceased from his own works,
as God did from His [when He created the Sabbath day]"
Do you believe this Marlin, that if we don't literally observe Saturday
that we will lose salvation?
Jesus, and most likely, Paul, answer this question in
these two verses:
JOHN 9:41 Jesus said unto them, {If ye
were blind, ye should have no sin:
but now ye
say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.}HEB 10:26 For if we
sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge
of the
truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Do you not recognize that the author of Hebrews was talking
about a rest other than Saturday observance? Surely you are not
blind to this spiritual insight.
The author of Hebrews, inspired by the Holy Spirit,was
usingSabbath keeping, which was being kept by the Hebrews, to show the
substance of other truths. The author was referencing Psalm 95, especially
verses 7,8, and 11, a song which is all about the meaning of the Sabbaths, Gen
2:2, and Numbers 14.
1) to showthat we should not be asthose who came out of the
bondage of Egypt and did not enter into the promised land because of
unbelief.
2) to show in Heb 4:11, that webelievers should "LABOR" (work) "to
enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example
ofunbelief."
3)Toshow, using the Sabbaths, that there is a rest that
"remaineth" to the people of God. (Heb 4:9). I believe these to be
the promises of eternal life and the millennial reign of Christ on the
earth. (The meek shall inherit the earth.) Heb 4:11 shows that the
rest has notyetcome to pass for the people of God.
4) To show that the WORD of God is judging the intents of our hearts
TODAY. (Heb 4:12-13)
NUM 14:22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and
my
miracles,
which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me
now these
ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;NUM 14:23 Surely
they shall not see the land which I sware unto
their
fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:
NUM 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all
that were
numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty
years old
and upward, which have murmured against me,NUM 14:31 But your
little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will
I bring
in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
GEN 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work
which he had made; and
he rested
on the seventh day from all his work which
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Hello Michael, I have always took this to apply to those of us who keep God's Sabbaths and holy days, with attention to God's lunar based calendar who were being judged by the kind of people who were judging Jesus. Paul did not say to let no man judge you for NOT keeping the Sabbaths. He said not to let others judge you in respect of the holy days, new moons, and Sabbaths, the things that Colossians were doing. Paul never said that these days had been changed to Sunday worship, or to some other holidays invented by men. Love, Marlin - Original Message - From: michael douglas To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 2:48 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? Marlin Halverson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do they not rread in Colossians 2, [? Who is not reading?] Michael D:I humbly submit that it seems like these commentators aren't, neither are you. Read Colossians 2: 16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drinkor in respect of a holy day, on of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. Notice the 'days' are in italics in the KJV. Sounds familiar to me... Doesn't it? With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs
Re: [TruthTalk]Only 9 of the 10 commandments
- Original Message - From: michael douglas To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]Only 9 of the 10 commandments Marlin Halverson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When people say that they do not want the law, and that they want to do away with the Old Testement, what they really want to do away with is Jesus Christ because He is the Word made flesh. (John 1) Michael D: Rom. 10: 4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Dear Michael, "end" strongs index #5056 telos, "It never denotes merely an end as to time, a termination in and for itself, for which another word, teleute(5054), death, is always used" Lexical Aids to the New Testament, Zodhiates. ROM 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:ROM 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Isa. 59:20-21; 27:9; Jer 31:33-34 NT reference to OT) ROM 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Exo 20:13-17; Deu 5:17-21; Lev 19:18 NT affirmation of OT 10 Commandments)ROM 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. REV 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.REV 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. REV 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.REV 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Love, Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk]Only 9 of the 10 commandments
- Original Message - From: michael douglas To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]Only 9 of the 10 commandments Marlin Halverson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When people say that they do not want the law, and that they want to do away with the Old Testement, what they really want to do away with is Jesus Christ because He is the Word made flesh. (John 1) Michael D: When, then, you desire to bring believers in Christ back under the law, God condems that. Please read Galatians 4. Dear Michael, It is sinning, disobeying the law, that puts us under the law. Jesus pays the penalty so that we are not condemned to death for failing to keep the law when we repent of breaking the law. Repentance means to stop sinning. Sinning puts us back under the law. With repentance, Jesus redeems us that we might receive the adoption of sons, and as sons, God sends the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying abba, Father. We are not to turn again to sin, to the weak and beggarly elements that put us into bondage, in service to them that are no gods. (2Chron 13:9; Isa 37:19; Jer. 2:11). Weak and beggarly elements cannot be a schoolmaster or a shadow of things to come. Please read: ROM 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:ROM 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? ROM 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? JAM 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.JAM 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.JAM 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.JAM 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?JAM 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?JAM 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?JAM 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.JAM 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.JAM 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?JAM 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
The reason I think this is wrong is because Marlin does not keep the Old Testament Sabbath just as they did in the OT. Marlin, I do NOT, will not, have not, kept the OT Sabbath. You need to stone me to death if you are going to follow the OT. Marlin, you do not follow the Old Testament Sabbath. Therefore you condemn yourself in this matter. FURTHERMORE, I HAVE BEEN KNOW TO PUT UP A CHRISTMAS TREE WITH OVER 2000 LIGHTS ON IT THE SABBATH AFTER THANKSGIVING. WITH AN ATTITUDE LIKE MINE, IF YOU ARE GOING TO FOLLOW THE OLD TESTAMENT YOU MUST STONE ME TO DEATH. "...because the commandment of Sabbath in the NT is our rest in Jesus as I previously mentioned re Hebrews 4." The following is from: http://www.cbcg.org/true_sabbath.doc --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
ws and Gentiles of New Testament times as the King James Bible is to Christians today. The use of the verb sabbatizw sabbatizo in Leviticus 23:32 in the Septuagint leaves no room to mistake its meaning. The Greek English Lexicon of the Septuagint defines sabbatizw sabb atizo as to keep sabbath, to rest (Lust, Eynikel, Hauspie). The English translation of this verse in the Septuagint reads: It [the Day of Atonement] shall be a holy sabbath [literally, a Sabbath of Sabbaths] to you; and ye shall humble your souls, from the ninth day of the month: from evening to evening shall ye keep your sabbaths (The Septuagint With the Apocrypha, Brenton). The phrase shall ye keep your sabbaths is translated from the Greek phrase sabbatieite ta sabbata sabbatieite ta sabbata, which literally means, You shall sabbathize the Sabbaths. The form of the Greek verb sabbatizw sabbatizo is the second person plural sabbatieite sabbatieite, which means, ye shall keep. Since the verb sabbathize, means to keep the Sabbath, this verb is a special verb that also relates to and defines Sabbath-keeping, for Gods command for the land Sabbath every seven years. In the entire Septuagint, the verb sabbatizw sabbatizo is never used to define the keeping of anything else. Rather, it is always used in relation to Sabbath-keeping and Sabbath-keeping only. In keeping with this definition, the KJV translates sabbatieite sabbatieite, this way: shall ye celebrate your sabbath. There is no question that the Greek verb sabbatizw sabbatizo in Leviticus 23:32 is specifically referring to Sabbath observance. This meaning applies equally to the noun form sabbatismoV sabbatismos, which we find in Pauls epistle to Hebrews. The fact that Paul used the Septuagint translation in this epistle confirms that the meaning word sabbatismoV sabbatismos, in Hebrews 4:9, is in complete accord with the meaning of sabbatieite ta sabbata sabbatieite ta sabbata, in Leviticus 23:32. Clearly Paul is upholding the observance of the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week. The use of the Greek word sabbatismoV sabbatismos in Hebrews 4:9 contradicts the teachings that the Fourth Commandment has been abolished. As the context of this verse shows, the observance of the seventh day as a day of rest and worship is as binding for the people of God today, as it was for Israel of old. In addition to the weekly Sabbath, the annual holy days that God commanded, which are also called Sabbaths, are included in the Fourth Commandme nt. In the same manner as true believers are commanded to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, they are also commanded to observe the annual holy days of God. The early New Testament church kept the holy days of God, as determined by the calculated Hebrew Calendar. The apostle Paul kept the holy days and commanded Gentile converts to keep them (I Cor. 5:7-8). None of the apostles or the early converts to Christianity observed the pagan holidays that are now called Christmas or Easter. These holidays, which originated in sun worship, were later adopted into Christianity, through the influence of the Roman church. They became false substitutes for the annual holy days that are commanded by God, just as Sunday has become a false substitute for the weekly Sabbath. Paul carries his instruction even further, showing that we have to keep the Sabbath or lose salvation. "For he that is entered into His rest [keeping the Sabbath], He also has ceased from his own works, as God did from His [when He created the Sabbath day] "We should be diligent therefore to enter into that rest [Sabbath-keeping, as well as striving to enter into the Kingdom of God], lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience. For the Word of God is living, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb. 4:10-12, AT). What could be more clear? God's Holy Word reveals that if we want to be true Christians, we must be loving God the Father and Jesus Christ. We must be living by every word of God, keeping His commandments. This is how we are to follow Jesus Christ and the teachings of the Bible. There is no question that we should be observing the seventh-day weekly Sabbath as the day of worship and fellowship." - Original Message - From: michael douglas To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:09 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael D: Izzy, do you hope to achieve by seeting yourself to obey the ten commandments? What do you hope to achieve by obeying the other nine? Or dont you believe they exist anymore, either? Izzy Also, If I may add... Keeping your Sabbath is something you must do because you need to obey your conscience (from what you have shared), but
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
used the Greek word sabbatismoV sabbatismos in Hebrews 4:9, he knew that the meaning of this word was well known to the Greek-speaking believers of that day. The verb form sabbatizw, sabbatizo was used in the Septuagint which was as familiar to the Greek-speaking Jews and Gentiles of New Testament times as the King James Bible is to Christians today. The use of the verb sabbatizw sabbatizo in Leviticus 23:32 in the Septuagint leaves no room to mistake its meaning. The Greek English Lexicon of the Septuagint defines sabbatizw sabb atizo as to keep sabbath, to rest (Lust, Eynikel, Hauspie). The English translation of this verse in the Septuagint reads: It [the Day of Atonement] shall be a holy sabbath [literally, a Sabbath of Sabbaths] to you; and ye shall humble your souls, from the ninth day of the month: from evening to evening shall ye keep your sabbaths (The Septuagint With the Apocrypha, Brenton). The phrase shall ye keep your sabbaths is translated from the Greek phrase sabbatieite ta sabbata sabbatieite ta sabbata, which literally means, You shall sabbathize the Sabbaths. The form of the Greek verb sabbatizw sabbatizo is the second person plural sabbatieite sabbatieite, which means, ye shall keep. Since the verb sabbathize, means to keep the Sabbath, this verb is a special verb that also relates to and defines Sabbath-keeping, for Gods command for the land Sabbath every seven years. In the entire Septuagint, the verb sabbatizw sabbatizo is never used to define the keeping of anything else. Rather, it is always used in relation to Sabbath-keeping and Sabbath-keeping only. In keeping with this definition, the KJV translates sabbatieite sabbatieite, this way: shall ye celebrate your sabbath. There is no question that the Greek verb sabbatizw sabbatizo in Leviticus 23:32 is specifically referring to Sabbath observance. This meaning applies equally to the noun form sabbatismoV sabbatismos, which we find in Pauls epistle to Hebrews. The fact that Paul used the Septuagint translation in this epistle confirms that the meaning word sabbatismoV sabbatismos, in Hebrews 4:9, is in complete accord with the meaning of sabbatieite ta sabbata sabbatieite ta sabbata, in Leviticus 23:32. Clearly Paul is upholding the observance of the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week. The use of the Greek word sabbatismoV sabbatismos in Hebrews 4:9 contradicts the teachings that the Fourth Commandment has been abolished. As the context of this verse shows, the observance of the seventh day as a day of rest and worship is as binding for the people of God today, as it was for Israel of old. In addition to the weekly Sabbath, the annual holy days that God commanded, which are also called Sabbaths, are included in the Fourth Commandme nt. In the same manner as true believers are commanded to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, they are also commanded to observe the annual holy days of God. The early New Testament church kept the holy days of God, as determined by the calculated Hebrew Calendar. The apostle Paul kept the holy days and commanded Gentile converts to keep them (I Cor. 5:7-8). None of the apostles or the early converts to Christianity observed the pagan holidays that are now called Christmas or Easter. These holidays, which originated in sun worship, were later adopted into Christianity, through the influence of the Roman church. They became false substitutes for the annual holy days that are commanded by God, just as Sunday has become a false substitute for the weekly Sabbath. Paul carries his instruction even further, showing that we have to keep the Sabbath or lose salvation. "For he that is entered into His rest [keeping the Sabbath], He also has ceased from his own works, as God did from His [when He created the Sabbath day] "We should be diligent therefore to enter into that rest [Sabbath-keeping, as well as striving to enter into the Kingdom of God], lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience. For the Word of God is living, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb. 4:10-12, AT). What could be more clear? God's Holy Word reveals that if we want to be true Christians, we must be loving God the Father and Jesus Christ. We must be living by every word of God, keeping His commandments. This is how we are to follow Jesus Christ and the teachings of the Bible. There is no question that we should be observing the seventh-day weekly Sabbath as the day of worship and fellowship." - Original Message - From: michael douglas To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:09 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael D: Izzy, do you hope to achieve by seeting yourself to obey the ten commandm
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Glen: Truth is no respector of persons.Forget me. I'm only a worm in God's eyes. What about God? What does God think? --Marlin - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? The reason I think this is wrong is because Marlin ..
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
he Roman empire, and by the Greek-speaking Jewish and Gentile coverts in the early New Testament church. The apostle Paul, quotes extensively from the Septuagint in his epistle to the Hebrews. When Paul used the Greek word sabbatismoV sabbatismos in Hebrews 4:9, he knew that the meaning of this word was well known to the Greek-speaking believers of that day. The verb form sabbatizw, sabbatizo was used in the Septuagint which was as familiar to the Greek-speaking Jews and Gentiles of New Testament times as the King James Bible is to Christians today. The use of the verb sabbatizw sabbatizo in Leviticus 23:32 in the Septuagint leaves no room to mistake its meaning. The Greek English Lexicon of the Septuagint defines sabbatizw sabb atizo as to keep sabbath, to rest (Lust, Eynikel, Hauspie). The English translation of this verse in the Septuagint reads: It [the Day of Atonement] shall be a holy sabbath [literally, a Sabbath of Sabbaths] to you; and ye shall humble your souls, from the ninth day of the month: from evening to evening shall ye keep your sabbaths (The Septuagint With the Apocrypha, Brenton). The phrase shall ye keep your sabbaths is translated from the Greek phrase sabbatieite ta sabbata sabbatieite ta sabbata, which literally means, You shall sabbathize the Sabbaths. The form of the Greek verb sabbatizw sabbatizo is the second person plural sabbatieite sabbatieite, which means, ye shall keep. Since the verb sabbathize, means to keep the Sabbath, this verb is a special verb that also relates to and defines Sabbath-keeping, for Gods command for the land Sabbath every seven years. In the entire Septuagint, the verb sabbatizw sabbatizo is never used to define the keeping of anything else. Rather, it is always used in relation to Sabbath-keeping and Sabbath-keeping only. In keeping with this definition, the KJV translates sabbatieite sabbatieite, this way: shall ye celebrate your sabbath. There is no question that the Greek verb sabbatizw sabbatizo in Leviticus 23:32 is specifically referring to Sabbath observance. This meaning applies equally to the noun form sabbatismoV sabbatismos, which we find in Pauls epistle to Hebrews. The fact that Paul used the Septuagint translation in this epistle confirms that the meaning word sabbatismoV sabbatismos, in Hebrews 4:9, is in complete accord with the meaning of sabbatieite ta sabbata sabbatieite ta sabbata, in Leviticus 23:32. Clearly Paul is upholding the observance of the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week. The use of the Greek word sabbatismoV sabbatismos in Hebrews 4:9 contradicts the teachings that the Fourth Commandment has been abolished. As the context of this verse shows, the observance of the seventh day as a day of rest and worship is as binding for the people of God today, as it was for Israel of old. In addition to the weekly Sabbath, the annual holy days that God commanded, which are also called Sabbaths, are included in the Fourth Commandme nt. In the same manner as true believers are commanded to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, they are also commanded to observe the annual holy days of God. The early New Testament church kept the holy days of God, as determined by the calculated Hebrew Calendar. The apostle Paul kept the holy days and commanded Gentile converts to keep them (I Cor. 5:7-8). None of the apostles or the early converts to Christianity observed the pagan holidays that are now called Christmas or Easter. These holidays, which originated in sun worship, were later adopted into Christianity, through the influence of the Roman church. They became false substitutes for the annual holy days that are commanded by God, just as Sunday has become a false substitute for the weekly Sabbath. Paul carries his instruction even further, showing that we have to keep the Sabbath or lose salvation. "For he that is entered into His rest [keeping the Sabbath], He also has ceased from his own works, as God did from His [when He created the Sabbath day] "We should be diligent therefore to enter into that rest [Sabbath-keeping, as well as striving to enter into the Kingdom of God], lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience. For the Word of God is living, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb. 4:10-12, AT). What could be more clear? God's Holy Word reveals that if we want to be true Christians, we must be loving God the Father and Jesus Christ. We must be living by every word of God, keeping His commandments. This is how we are to follow Jesus Christ and the teachings of the Bible. There is no question that we should be observing the seventh-day weekly Sabbath as the day of worship and fellowship." - Original Message - From: michael douglas To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:09
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
he Roman empire, and by the Greek-speaking Jewish and Gentile coverts in the early New Testament church. The apostle Paul, quotes extensively from the Septuagint in his epistle to the Hebrews. When Paul used the Greek word sabbatismoV sabbatismos in Hebrews 4:9, he knew that the meaning of this word was well known to the Greek-speaking believers of that day. The verb form sabbatizw, sabbatizo was used in the Septuagint which was as familiar to the Greek-speaking Jews and Gentiles of New Testament times as the King James Bible is to Christians today. The use of the verb sabbatizw sabbatizo in Leviticus 23:32 in the Septuagint leaves no room to mistake its meaning. The Greek English Lexicon of the Septuagint defines sabbatizw sabb atizo as to keep sabbath, to rest (Lust, Eynikel, Hauspie). The English translation of this verse in the Septuagint reads: It [the Day of Atonement] shall be a holy sabbath [literally, a Sabbath of Sabbaths] to you; and ye shall humble your souls, from the ninth day of the month: from evening to evening shall ye keep your sabbaths (The Septuagint With the Apocrypha, Brenton). The phrase shall ye keep your sabbaths is translated from the Greek phrase sabbatieite ta sabbata sabbatieite ta sabbata, which literally means, You shall sabbathize the Sabbaths. The form of the Greek verb sabbatizw sabbatizo is the second person plural sabbatieite sabbatieite, which means, ye shall keep. Since the verb sabbathize, means to keep the Sabbath, this verb is a special verb that also relates to and defines Sabbath-keeping, for Gods command for the land Sabbath every seven years. In the entire Septuagint, the verb sabbatizw sabbatizo is never used to define the keeping of anything else. Rather, it is always used in relation to Sabbath-keeping and Sabbath-keeping only. In keeping with this definition, the KJV translates sabbatieite sabbatieite, this way: shall ye celebrate your sabbath. There is no question that the Greek verb sabbatizw sabbatizo in Leviticus 23:32 is specifically referring to Sabbath observance. This meaning applies equally to the noun form sabbatismoV sabbatismos, which we find in Pauls epistle to Hebrews. The fact that Paul used the Septuagint translation in this epistle confirms that the meaning word sabbatismoV sabbatismos, in Hebrews 4:9, is in complete accord with the meaning of sabbatieite ta sabbata sabbatieite ta sabbata, in Leviticus 23:32. Clearly Paul is upholding the observance of the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week. The use of the Greek word sabbatismoV sabbatismos in Hebrews 4:9 contradicts the teachings that the Fourth Commandment has been abolished. As the context of this verse shows, the observance of the seventh day as a day of rest and worship is as binding for the people of God today, as it was for Israel of old. In addition to the weekly Sabbath, the annual holy days that God commanded, which are also called Sabbaths, are included in the Fourth Commandme nt. In the same manner as true believers are commanded to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, they are also commanded to observe the annual holy days of God. The early New Testament church kept the holy days of God, as determined by the calculated Hebrew Calendar. The apostle Paul kept the holy days and commanded Gentile converts to keep them (I Cor. 5:7-8). None of the apostles or the early converts to Christianity observed the pagan holidays that are now called Christmas or Easter. These holidays, which originated in sun worship, were later adopted into Christianity, through the influence of the Roman church. They became false substitutes for the annual holy days that are commanded by God, just as Sunday has become a false substitute for the weekly Sabbath. Paul carries his instruction even further, showing that we have to keep the Sabbath or lose salvation. "For he that is entered into His rest [keeping the Sabbath], He also has ceased from his own works, as God did from His [when He created the Sabbath day] "We should be diligent therefore to enter into that rest [Sabbath-keeping, as well as striving to enter into the Kingdom of God], lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience. For the Word of God is living, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb. 4:10-12, AT). What could be more clear? God's Holy Word reveals that if we want to be true Christians, we must be loving God the Father and Jesus Christ. We must be living by every word of God, keeping His commandments. This is how we are to follow Jesus Christ and the teachings of the Bible. There is no question that we should be observing the seventh-day weekly Sabbath as the day of worship and fellowship." - Original Message - From: michael douglas To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:09 AM Subjec
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Marlin wrote: The following is from: http://www.cbcg.org/true_sabbath.doc Many ministers and theologians have applied the opposite meaning to Hebrews 4:9. They have completely misinterpreted the King James Version of this verse, which reads, There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. ... snip... Hi Marlin. I had huge problems with the logic of this article that you shared. Basically it sought to establish the use of a same Greek word used in the Septuagint to argue that Paul could only mean exactly the same thing as that referred to in the Septuagint. This is crazy. People use words figuratively all the time. Water is sometimes used in the New Testament to refer to the Word of God, and you can't argue that because in the Old Testament it means real water that it must mean real water in the New Testament. Bread likewise is used this way. Leaven is another thing that in the New Testament refers to sin, and also to false doctrine and a false political system. What would you think if I pointed out how the same Greek word is used in the Septuagint to refer to real leaven. Are you really going to think that therefore it must refer to actual leaven everywhere the word is used in the New Testament? Such logic is ludicrous. The article said: The apostle Paul kept the holy days True. The article said: and commanded Gentile converts to keep them (I Cor. 5:7-8). False. This passage in 1 Cor. 5 is exactly one of those passages where Paul sees clearly and expresses to the believers how that Christ has become our passover sacrifice, so now we are in the days of unleavened bread and we should put away the leaven. He is not talking about literal leaven that is put out during the days of unleavened bread anymore than he is talking about the literal passover lamb that was killed and eaten at passover. He is talking about how when believers become saved in Jesus Christ, they immediately put away from themselves the leaven of sin from their lives, just as the shadow of the feasts depict. Notice how this passage says, not with old leaven and with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. He spells it out clearly for everyone that the unleavened bread he speaks of is not something you put in your mouth and eat. Rather, he is speaking about the sincerity and truth that we need to walk in when we believe upon Jesus Christ and eat him as our passover lamb (spiritually speaking, not literally). I think observing passover and the feast of unleavened bread is wonderful. Paul, being a Jew, kept these feasts and taught their application to the believer. I have been in Israel during Passover and the feast of unleavened bread, and the imagery is fantastic when you have all these hotel owners and restaurant owners washing all their things outside, getting rid of every bit of leaven. People meticulously vacuum their cars to make sure every bit of leaven is gone. When a person understands how this leaven represents sin, to see all the industry given to making sure the leaven is all gone, how clear it becomes that we must put away every speck of sin that might be residing somewhere in our lives. I have Jewish friends who are not Christian. During Passover and the feast I was visiting one of these friends in Israel. I asked him if he knew why the Scriptures told them to get rid of the leaven. Did he know why they were doing all this. He said no, only that the Torah says to do it. You should have seen his eyes widen when I explained how our Christian perspective is that the leaven represents sin, and therefore, when we come to Christ who is the true passover lamb, we must immediately put forth all the leaven (sin) in our lives and enter into his rest. He has lived in this culture his whole life and never heard that. In my culture, people don't understand what it takes to get rid of all the leaven in the household. Bringing these cultures together is wonderful I think. The article said: Paul carries his instruction even further, showing that we have to keep the Sabbath or lose salvation. For he that is entered into His rest [keeping the Sabbath], He also has ceased from his own works, as God did from His [when He created the Sabbath day] Do you believe this Marlin, that if we don't literally observe Saturday that we will lose salvation? Do you not recognize that the author of Hebrews was talking about a rest other than Saturday observance? Surely you are not blind to this spiritual insight. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk]Only 9 of the 10 commandments
When people say that they do not want the law, and that they want to do away with the Old Testement, what they really want to do away with is Jesus Christ because He is the Word made flesh. (John 1) --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Thank you, Glenn, for showering me with more blessings.
MAT 5:11
I am sure that you get along with others much better than
I do.
JOH 15:14 {Ye are my friends, if ye do
whatsoever I command you.}.
JOH 15:17 {These things I command you, that ye
love one another.}JOH 15:18 {If the world hate you, ye know that
it hated me before [it hated]you.}JOH 15:19 {If ye were of
the world, the world would love his own: but
because ye
are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the
world,
therefore the world hateth you.}JOH 15:20 {Remember the word
that I said unto you, The servant is not
greater
than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also
persecute
you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.}JOH
15:21 {But all these things will they do unto you for my
name's
sake,
because they know not him that sent me.}
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 10:45
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10
commandments?
Marlin, You have a problem with getting along with people. The
Holy Spirit revealed it to me the first time you posted. You are
stubbord which is as witchcraft according to the Bible. I'm not
saying you are saved. I am saying it sounds like you have fallen from
grace. Gal. 5:4. But I will not make that judgment.
Glen:Truth is no respector of persons.Forget
me. I'm only a worm in God's eyes.What about God?
What does God think?--Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
You are a smart elick. I am not showering you with blessings. To shower you will blessings, what I say must be false. The Holy Spirit does not lie. You should listen but you will not because your stubbornness is as witchcraft.
You are misusing Matt. 5:11 and John 15 just as you have misused other scriptures.
You quote "JOH 15:21 {But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.}" YOU ARE SAYING I AM NOT SAVED BECAUSE I DO NOT FOLLOW THE OLD TESTAMENT SABBATH. You are misusing this verse.
I REBUKE YOU IN JESUS NAME FOR JUDGING MY ETERNAL SALVATION.
Thank you, Glenn, for showering me with more blessings. MAT 5:11
I am sure that you get along with others much better than I do.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Marlin Halverson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "There is no Sabbath day commandment in the Church age. The Sabbath is not Saturday, nor is it Sunday. There is no where in the Church age where we are commanded to keep a Sabbath day. The Sabbath is a relationship of total surrender and trust in Jesus. When a man ceases from his own works and walks in the Spirit." Dear Michael, Too manypeople read "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" and the first thing they want to do is "Forget the sabbath day" and tear it out of the ten comandments. But you are different! :-) I am trying to understand your statement. First, there is no Sabbath day commandment, but no, there is a sabbath. ? Sabbath="total surrender and trust in Jesus." Sabbath="When a man ceases from his own works and walks in the Spirit." It must be fantastic to keep the Sabbath 7 days a week. I would love to do that. But, if I were to do that, my wife and children would starve and I would be worse than an infidel. Besides, the Lord gave me the 6 days to use for a purpose. Would it be right to not receive that gift with thanksgiving? Could you please tell me how you spiritually keep the first part of the 4th commandment which says "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work" Michael D: Sorry for the delay in responding to the questions asked to clarify my statements. I'll try to address them as quickly as possible. The Bible gives us two major covenants with God re salvation. One is for physical Israel, the other for spiritual Israel. As you know, spiritual Israel's covenant is interpreted for us in the New Testament. What I have been saying is that the New Covenant that we are given by God gives no requirement for a Sabbath Day observation. The only sabbath that we are enjoined to keep under the New Covenant is one of a spiritual relationship with God through faith in Jesus. This is very clearly summed up in Hebrews 4. It says that the rest (sabbath)of God is for a man to cease from his own works as God ceased from His. Therefore it states that there remains a keeping of the sabbath to God's people, but it is fulfilled in those who believe God and accepts his promises: Vs. 4. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all His works. 9. There remaineth therefore a rest (margin: keeping of sabbath)to the people of God. 10. For he that hath entered into his rest he also hath ceased from his own works, as God ceased from His. 11. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest (cease from all our works: italics mine) lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. You see, here it is comparing works with unbelief, and faith with rest. Can you and Izzyagree with that? The rest of God is walking by faith. Hence my reference to Galatians 5:6. ...In Christ Jesus, neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love. I encourage you all to read Hebrews 4carefully. It relates God's resting on the seventh day (which some use as authority for claims of a seventh day sabbath before the law was given) to the rest of faith, not to Saturday. This tells us that the seventh day sabbath was only a type which was fulfilled in Jesus, and which we appropriate by faith. It's is spiritual, for spiritual Israel. This is the only injuction to keep the sabbath in the Church age that I know about. Do you all have any other references (which I requested previously). Other than that, Paul says whatever day you esteem, is up to you, but it gains no special merit with God - apart from a clear conscience. When do you keep the 6 days? Every moment I stay in faith and walk in the Spirit before God. When I step out of that I have broken God's sabbath. If we walk in the spirit I am not under the law. Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bless your heart, Marlin, you are back to not answering questions again. Please answer, or tell me you are not going to answer and I will understand."Tell me, that I am free to worship on Sunday without it being wrong?" I didn't think you had a clue as to what Michael was talking about. Read it again. He's not advocating a Sunday only day as you seem to be advocating a Saturday only day. Glenn: "Refute Michael's posts about the Sabbath?"I am not sure what you want here."Tell me, that I am free to worship on Sunday without it being wrong?" 1JO 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.1JO 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God.ROM 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.Are you happy?"I live by the New Testament"ROM 15:4 For whatsoever things were written a foretime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.--Marlin Michael D: Correct Marlin, for our learning, not necessarily for our practice. Am I correct in that statement. Not everything we learn in the OT, we practise, but they teach us something about God, and our relationship to Him. I'm sure we will all agree with that. Specific practice is prescribed in the new covenant and the doctrines derived from it... Can you agree?Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
"Not if I was sure it was God and not some man's opinion." --Laura Absolutely! This is the dividing line. Following the opinions of men where it is contrary to God makes men into gods and violates the first comandment. EXO 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. You have answered your own question. I provided validation with the scripture above. --Marlin - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? In a message dated 11/16/2002 9:47:54 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Laura,Forget about me. I am nothing. Would it bother you if God has a problem with it?Not if I was sure it was God and not some man's opinion. But you have not answered my question. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
A Note From the Editors of Mary OnLine+ Credit for this article's appearance here must go, in a case of delicious irony, to the Bible Light Home Page and to Michael Scheifler, a Seventh Day Adventist, who, in an act of Christian charity, awarded The Immaculate Heart of Mary with his ominous sounding 666 Dangerous Site designation, a reference, apparently, to the SDA's long held belief that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon and the instrument of the Anti-Christ. Laughable, yes, but it is not the intent here to engage in that debate. We give Mr. Scheifler credit simply because he did all the work on getting it typed in and on the 'net in the first place, and graciously gave us permission to use his work. The SDA now actually publishes this article in booklet form, to use in it's propaganda to lull people from the True Faith. Unaware that using an article, published by a Catholic Cardinal, in a Catholic newspaper, to convert people to their sect, is a bit like using an advertisement for Coke to get people to buy Pepsi, the article nevertheless makes a valid point. The challenge issued by Rome over 100 years ago remains: Either the Catholic Church is right, or the Seventh Day Adventists are right. There can be no other choice. And if one choose neither, then the whole doctrine of Sola Scriptura collapses, and with it, the pillar upon which all of Protestantism stands. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? Marlin wrote: This link appears to be a reprint of the article on a Catholic web-site. http://www.immaculateheart.com/MaryOnLine/html/apologetics.html Right, but at this site, the credit is given to a Seventh-Day Adventist. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Trickery, trickery, trickery. You VIOLATED THE USE of the Scriptures you gave. You just ignore what is said and come back with questions or some questionable link. Question - Why don't you come to VA and stone me to death since you believe in following the Old Testament Sabbath? WHY don't you answer my and Laura's question? I reject the Old Testament teaching on the Sabbath and do not observe it as a Saturday day of worship. Am I wrong? Get some guts and same so and quit beating around the bush. "Not if I was sure it was God and not some man's opinion." --Laura Absolutely! This is the dividing line. Following the opinions of men where it is contrary to God makes men into gods and violates the first comandment. EXO 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. You have answered your own question. I provided validation with the scripture above. --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Marlin wrote: This is the dividing line. Following the opinions of men where it is contrary to God makes men into gods and violates the first comandment. Hi Marlin. Do you have any recognition of different covenants, or do you consider all of God's dealings with man as one covenant? It seems to me like you are saying that if God spoke something to Israel four thousand years ago, that this becomes his will and mind for all of mankind throughout all eternity. What do you think of the following passage of Scripture: Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. (Act 21:23-25) Please answer the following questions: 1. Do you interpret this passage as saying that the Gentiles should not observe the law as Paul did? 2. Do you get any hint of a different covenant relationship with God between Gentiles and Jews? 3. Don't you think that Sabbath observance is part of that which James did not expect the Gentiles which believe to observe? If not, why didn't he add sabbath observance to the list of observances required by believing Gentiles? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
This is so stupid. Ignorant stupidity. I am still waiting for you to tell me the answer from your 7th Day adventists friends if they officially claim to be the one and only true church I don't buy this I don't know stuff. I also don't buy your refusal to answer my and Laura's question. Are are wrong for rejecting the Old Testament teaching on the Sabbath and follow the New Testament teaching on the Sabbath instead??? The challenge issued by Rome over 100 years ago remains: Either the Catholic Church is right, or the Seventh Day Adventists are right. There can be no other choice. And if one choose neither, then the whole doctrine of Sola Scriptura collapses, and with it, the pillar upon which all of Protestantism stands.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Hi Marlin. I'm not sure why you are quoting the entire credits. Are you simply expressing agreement with what I wrote before? Are you trying to open up some more dialogue or make a point? I want to make a few comments about my perspective on the following comment: The challenge issued by Rome over 100 years ago remains: Either the Catholic Church is right, or the Seventh Day Adventists are right. There can be no other choice. And if one choose neither, then the whole doctrine of Sola Scriptura collapses, and with it, the pillar upon which all of Protestantism stands. First, the pillar of Protestantism is not Sola Scriptura. This is the pillar of only some of the reformers. Furthermore, how they used this pillar is not exactly how some represent them. I personally do not believe in Sola Scriptura. The Scriptures tell us that God speaks by many means and not just by Scripture. For example, the Holy Spirit which we receive within us is one way in which God speaks. Also, the Bible says that the church is the pillar and ground of truth, and if we read 1 Corinthians 12, we find that it is through the varied members of the body of Christ that Jesus speaks to the rest of the members. The Scriptures also teach that the letter of the law kills but the Spirit gives life. In any case, I do believe with the tenet that Scripture is a higher authority than either revelation or tradition. Therefore, the phrase above, there can be no other choice is false. Nevertheless, even if Sola Scriptura were followed, a very good case can be made that there has been a disannulling of the commandments of the Hebrew Scriptures with regard to Sabbath, Passover, etc. The Catholics and the Seventh Day Adventists are wrong on this regard. If I had time, I would present the arguments myself, but there are plenty of sources out there that have already made the arguments. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Laura, Of course it is slanted; it was written with great contempt by the Catholic church, poking insults at Protestants. Why? Because the very folks who left the CC to cling to scripture only have never lived by scripture only when it comes to obeying the Sabbath commandment. The reason all of Christendom worships on Sunday is simply because the CC decided, a century later, that it should be on Sundaythe CC that believes Tradition overrules Scripture. The article goes thru every mention of worship in the NT to point out that in each and every instance it shows that the early Believers honored the Sabbath. It refers to that pious fraud, the Bible Sabbath. If Michael D. would read this article he would notice that Acts 2:46 states, And they, continuing daily in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, explains why they were breaking bread on the first day of the week. They did it every day! It also points out that at no time was Sunday referred to as the Lords Day or the Sabbathit was only called the first day of the week. So again I say, you should not criticize and insult Believers who differ with you on this (ie: you need counseling), as this is a very unloving way to treat your brethren in Christ. Did we not agree that there is room for disagreement on this? Sabbath Keepers have scripture on their side. Sunday Keepers have what doctrine that they have inferred from scripture. (There is no scripture stating that God has decided you should no longer honor the Sabbath.) You Sunday folks are the ones doing all the pig squealing that Glenn talked about; as in character attacks upon those who dont agree with you. So can we just agree to disagree, and move on please? Izzy Here are some quotes from Romes Challenge: Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday?: The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only. They profess to hold the Scripture alone as the standard of faith. They justify their revolt by the pleas that the Church has apostatized from the written word and follows tradition. Now the Protestants claim that they stand upon the written word only is not true. Their profession of holding the Scripture alone as the standard of faith, is false. PROFF: The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they do truly hold the scripture alone as their standard, they would be observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout. Yet they have adopted and do practice the observance of Sunday, for which the you have only the tradition of the Church. Consequently the claim of Scripture alone as the standard fails; and the doctrine of Scripture and Tradition as essential, is fully established, the Protestants themselves being judges. Will (Protestants) stand consistently upon the Protestant profession? Or will they still continue to occupy the indefensible, self-contradictory, and suicidal position of professing to be Protestants, yet standing on Catholic ground, receiving Catholic insult, and bearing Catholic condemnation? Will they indeed take the written word only, the Scripture alone, as their sole authority and their sole standard? Or will the still hold the indefensible, self-contradictory, and suicidal doctrine and practice of following the authority of the CC and of wearing the sign of her authority? Will they keep the Sabbath of the Lord, the seventh day, according to Scripture? Or will they keep the Sunday according to the tradition of the Catholic Church? Dear reader, which will you do? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 10:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? Yes I read the article. I found it to be quite slanted. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Unbelievable you could say this, when you didn't respond the Michael. This is absolutely. You are not open to discussing Michael's Biblical point. BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT, EVEN if it were true that does not make it wrong. The Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That does not make Him not the Son of God. There's a theological term for this teaching. ITS THE SAME REASONING THAT SAYS CHRISTMAS IS WRONG. The reason all of Christendom worships on Sunday is simply because the CC decided,
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Anyone who wants to be in spiriutal bondage needs spiritual counseling. I do not say this to be mean. It's the truth. I am trying to be nice. But the truth is the truth. The whole book of Galatians is ignored in this discussion. Now I am trying to stay out of this because it is impossible to talk to a closed mind. Sorry again but I do I tell the truth and the truth is received as an insult. So again I say, you should not criticize and insult Believers who differ with you on this (ie: “you need counseling”),
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
This is a red flag that tells me one can't refute Michael. . So can we just agree to disagree, and move on please?
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Izzy wrote: Of course it is slanted; it was written with great contempt by the Catholic church, poking insults at Protestants. Why? Because the very folks who left the CC to cling to scripture only have never lived by scripture only when it comes to obeying the Sabbath commandment. For the sake of accuracy, I must point out that the article at http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/chalng.htm was NOT written by the Catholic church. It was written by Seventh Day Adventists and re-published in a Catholic periodical. The fact that you mistakenly thought that the Catholic church wrote it reveals just how slanted the article was. My guess is that the Roman Catholics probably published it to show how foolish the Protestants are to follow sola scriptura and to laugh at the Protestant infighting. Perhaps they also just wanted to present the other side. The best way to find out is to examine the original documents, which I have not done. There is an assumption by the article that Christians who worship on Sunday do so because the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. Clearly, the Bible does not indicate any such change, so that is easy to prove. Nevertheless, this argument does not satisfy the matter because early church history shows that the change to Sunday was done not because the Sabbath was changed, but because the law of the Sabbath was nailed to the cross and done away with. Christians like Michael Douglas or myself might assemble on Sunday simply because we recognize no commandment against it. I have at times assembled on Saturday instead of Sunday, but I didn't do it because there was a commandment that I needed to do that. Consider the following passage which was quoted often by Christians of the second century for why they met together on Sunday: When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isa 1:12-18) Izzy wrote: The reason all of Christendom worships on Sunday is simply because the CC decided, a century later, that it should be on Sunday-the CC that believes Tradition overrules Scripture. This is what the Seventh Day Adventists who wrote the article have led you to believe, but this is not the truth. I realize that my view of history is not readily received by many who have been under Protestant and Roman Catholic history, but in my opion, Roman Catholicism did not exist during the second century. Izzy wrote: The article goes thru every mention of worship in the NT to point out that in each and every instance it shows that the early Believers honored the Sabbath. It refers to that pious fraud, the Bible Sabbath. The New Testament believers did by far and large observe the Sabbath. It was there culture to do so. I suspect that if we lived in Israel today, most of us would readily worship the Lord on the Sabbath also. I only hope that it would not be because the letter of the law demands it. Izzy wrote: If Michael D. would read this article he would notice that Acts 2:46 states, And they, continuing daily in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house., explains why they were breaking bread on the first day of the week. They did it every day! This happened scores of years earlier and in a different city than the Lord's Day verse it is being compared with (Acts 20:7). I don't think the believers in Troas met daily in the temple because the temple was not in Troas. Nevertheless, the passage indicates that Paul and his team abode in Troas for seven days. It would be ridiculous to think that saints waited until this last day to meet with him and his team. Surely they must have had week long revival meetings every day. Izzy wrote: It also points out that at no time was Sunday referred to as the Lord's Day or the Sabbath-it was only called the first day of the week. Arguing from silence is not proof. I believe that the Lord's Day was Sunday because our earliest historical records clearly tie the phrase Lord's Day to Sunday. The article's approach to the day of the Lord being connected with the Lord's day and thereby being what John referred to in Revelation was absolutely ridiculous. I had serious problems with the
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Laura wrote: Look at it from a practical viewpoint. If every denomination picked a different day to worship we would have chaos. See, Laura, you do have a talent. You are able to look through all the philosophy and rhetoric and say, what about the practical viewpoint! This becomes increasingly important when we consider our societies view of tolerance for other religions and viewpoints. The Muslims have Friday for their Sabbath. What are we going to do? Have three days of rest per week in the name of religion? If as a society we decided to have a day of rest and reverence for God, which day should it be? I would vote for Saturday. The real kicker question is, who would vote to make it a capital offense to break this sabbath? Furthermore, which of us would vote that those guilty of breaking the sabbath should be brought before society where each of us must fulfill our civil duty to throw stones at the person until they were dead? This is as much of the commandment of Torah as keeping the seventh day holy. Who among us could bear such a thing? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Will someone please tell me if the 7th Day Adventists still claim to be the one and only true church? It was written by Seventh Day Adventists and re-published in a Catholic periodical.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
The reason I reject the 7th Day Adventist Church is because they are as confused as the Church of Christ as to the meaning of worship. Izzy wrote: The article goes thru every mention of worship in the NT to point out that in each and every instance it shows that the early Believers honored the Sabbath. It refers to "that pious fraud, the Bible Sabbath."
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Izzy, I realize you do not condmen Christians for worshipping on other days of the week other than Saturday. HOWEVER, MARLIN, DOES. THAT'S HOW I TAKE HIS POSTS. MARLIN, TELL ME I AM WRONG ABOUT THIS. TELL ME I AM PERFECTLY WITHIN NEW TESTAMENT DOCTRINE TO WORSHIP ON SUNDAY. TELL ME?? Thanks for the comments; very interesting and enlightening. My whole point is not that everyone else should obey the Sabbath; but that I am convicted to do it, and take a lot of joy in doing so. So why does that incense other Christians? It's as if I am threatening their core beliefs about salvation through grace, which is not at all what I am asserting. I just mentioned my own habits in an attempt to get them to stop doing character assassination on poor Marlin! Anyway, I'm always happy to hear your viewpoint because you don't do that. :-)
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
"I get irate (Be ye angry and sin not.) when people try to take me back into religious bondage." Dearest Glenn, There is a way out of the religiousbondage you so desperately resist. Egypt is the house of religious bondage, whose influence is still with us today in Sun worship, the religion that permeates modern "Christianity." Notice how God intended to remove his people out of the religious bondage: (EXO 20:2) "I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.Thou shalt have no other gods before me.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it]thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter,thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and allthat in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORDblessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it..." The people's reaction (EXO 20:18...) is another part of the story discussed in the New Testament. But That's all for now. Love, Marlin - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? I get irate (Be ye angry and sin not. )when people tryt o take me back into religious bondage. I am sorry, but you have shown that your mind is made up. You are not open. I am trying to be nice so what I just said is really watered down with respect to you. Dear Glen,Unlike others, who try to rest every day, I am busy working the six days, according the fourth commandment. I do believe that God is working with your heart in the matter of obedience, otherwise you would not have become so irate with the answers I have provided. :-) It is those "scholars" whom I fault for creating such confusion with the clear word of God.I was able to scan through many of the commentaries you have attached below and I am left with the same feelings that Christ had when the "scholars" of His day came to tempt him:
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Thanks for your concern. I appreciate it. But you are wasting your time sending me OT passages. I live by the New Testament and Jesus the Christ. I do preach out of the OT but not for salvation. The NEW TESTAMENT IS THE OLD TESTAMENT REVEALED. Are you going to respond to some questions? 1. 7th Day Adventists? Do they still they they are the one and only true church? 2. Refute Michael's posts about the Sabbath? 3. Tell me, that I am free to worship on Sunday without it being wrong? "I get irate (Be ye angry and sin not.) when people try to take me back into religious bondage." Dearest Glenn, There is a way out of the religious bondage you so desperately resist. Egypt is the house of religious bondage, whose influence is still with us today in Sun worship, the religion that permeates modern "Christianity." Notice how God intended to remove his people out of the religious bondage: (EXO 20:2) "I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it..." The people's reaction (EXO 20:18...) is another part of the story discussed in the New Testament. But That's all for now. Love, Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Dear David: I believe you wrote: It was written by Seventh Day Adventists and re-published in a Catholic periodical If you know something the origin that I don't know, please tell me your source. I found these references at the end of the articles: Today this pamphlet reprint of the Catholic Mirror editorials is still published by the Review and Herald Publishing Association, 55 West Oak Ridge Drive, Hagerstown, Maryland 21740, a Seventh-day Adventist publishing house. The ISBN is 0-8280-0378-5. The March 1998 edition of Mary Online, a Catholic web site, has republished online Rome's Challenge to the Protestant Sunday keepers, and reaffirmed the challenge in an appended Editor's note. --Marlin - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Marlin wrote: If you know something the origin that I don't know, please tell me your source. Hi Marlin. I could be wrong in that I have not thoroughly researched this article due to lack of time. Upon your question, I have re-read what caused me to think this way, and now realize that the question of who actually wrote the article really isn't clear. Following is what I read at the beginning that led me to think this way: FEBRUARY 24, 1893, the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists adopted certain resolutions appealing to the government and people of the United States from the decision of the Supreme Court declaring this to be a Christian nation, and from the action of Congress in legislating upon the subject of religion, and remonstrating against the principle and all the consequences of the same. In March 1893, the International Religious Liberty Association PRINTED THESE RESOLUTIONS IN A TRACT entitled Appeal and Remonstrance. On RECEIPT OF ONE OF THESE, THE EDITOR of the Catholic Mirror of Baltimore, Maryland, PUBLISHED a series of four editorials, which appeared in that paper September, 2, 9, 16, and 23, 1893. The Catholic Mirror was the official organ of Cardinal Gibbons and the Vatican in the United States. These articles, therefore, although NOT WRITTEN BY THE CARDINAL'S OWN HAND, APPEARED UNDER HIS OFFICIAL SANCTION, and as the expression of the Church to Protestantism, and the demand of the Church that Protestants shall render to the Church an account of why they keep Sunday and also of how they keep it. So it seemed to me that they were presenting arguments from a Seventh Day Adventist, and then raising a question that had been raised hundreds of years before, about why Protestants keep Sunday if not by Church tradition. This perspective seemed reaffirmed when I read phrases within the article itself which referred to our Presbyterian brethren and our Calvinistic brethren. Although today Catholics consider Protestants as separated brethren, it is my understanding that in 1893 Protestants were not considered brethren in any way. So phrases like these seem more appropriate from a Seventh Day Adventist than from a Roman Catholic. Furthermore, I have read Seventh Day Adventist literature before, and this seemed very much like it. If you know who actually wrote these articles, I would be pleased to know it. Maybe if someone can look up the original printed by the Seventh Day Adventists and compare it to these printed in the Catholic Mirror, that would answer the question. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Glenn: "Refute Michael's posts about the Sabbath?" I am not sure what you want here. "Tell me, that I am free to worship on Sunday without it being wrong?" 1JO 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.1JO 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God. ROM 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. Are you happy? "I live by the New Testament" ROM 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
OK Marlin Let me know if I am correct. If in my heart, I have no problem with worshipping on Sunday then it is OK. But in your case, you feel it is wrong to worship on Sunday so if you don't worship on Sat then you are wrong. BTW How were your services today? Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Bless your heart, Marlin, you are back to not answering questions again. Please answer, or tell me you are not going to answer and I will understand. "Tell me, that I am free to worship on Sunday without it being wrong?" I didn't think you had a clue as to what Michael was talking about. Read it again. He's not advocating a Sunday only day as you seem to be advocating a Saturday only day. Glenn: "Refute Michael's posts about the Sabbath?" I am not sure what you want here. "Tell me, that I am free to worship on Sunday without it being wrong?" 1JO 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 1JO 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God. ROM 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. Are you happy? "I live by the New Testament" ROM 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
I didn't think you had a clue as to what Michael was talking about. Read it again. He's not advocating a Sunday only day as you seem to be advocating a Saturday only day. Glenn, I recall now. I did answer him, but have not heard back: "There is no Sabbath day commandment in the Church age. The Sabbath is not Saturday, nor is it Sunday. There is no where in the Church age where we are commanded to keep a Sabbath day. The Sabbath is a relationship of total surrender and trust in Jesus. When a man ceases from his own works and walks in the Spirit." Dear Michael, Too manypeople read "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" and the first thing they want to do is "Forget the sabbath day" and tear it out of the ten comandments. But you are different! :-) I am trying to understand your statement. First, there is no Sabbath day commandment, but no, there is a sabbath. ? Sabbath="total surrender and trust in Jesus." Sabbath="When a man ceases from his own works and walks in the Spirit." It must be fantastic to keep the Sabbath 7 days a week. I would love to do that. But, if I were to do that, my wife and children would starve and I would be worse than an infidel. Besides, the Lord gave me the 6 days to use for a purpose. Would it be right to not receive that gift with thanksgiving? Could you please tell me how you spiritually keep the first part of the 4th commandment which says "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work" When do you keep the 6 days? Love, Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. If they let the World's Fair close on Sunday for religious reasons then they had to close it on Saturday also. If people (and the majority do) worked on Monday through Friday, then when could they attend. Also by allowing it to remain open, how many people violated their "conviction" by having to work at the fair on Sunday. It can be a vicious circle. Laura The reason for the series of articles was a United States Supreme Court decision that cast down requirements that the World's Fair should be closed on Sunday. The Seventh Day Adventists were the ones who made the appeal, and they prevailed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Dear Laura, We have no disagreement in that we may worship the Lord on the first day, the second day, and so on. I worship God daily. This is not keeping the Sabbath. The question arises: Should we: "Remember the sabbath day" "keep it holy" "Six days...labour, and do all thy work..." for the reason that God gives --that it is a memorial of the creation week? "For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it..." If you know this truth and don't keep it, it is sin. If you honestly don't know this truth, I don't believe that you will be condemned for it in the judgment. But you will miss out on the blessings for following this truth in this life. I still need to answer a couple of questions that Izzy asked. She uses the word "celebrate" for "keep." I believe this is appropriate because it is a memorial of the creation week, a matter of praise. You may recall, Jesus showed the delight of keeping the Sabbath by lifting burdens and teaching on that day customarily. It was men who imposed the burdens. About the services today, they were not what I would call as inspiring as they are at other times. They were no where near the inspiration we shared during the Feast of Tabernacles this year. I prefer an interractive setting. This allows each a chance to edify the other. --Marlin - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? OK Marlin Let me know if I am correct. If in my heart, I have no problem with worshipping on Sunday then it is OK. But in your case, you feel it is wrong to worship on Sunday so if you don't worship on Sat then you are wrong. BTW How were your services today? Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
In a message dated 11/16/2002 4:32:11 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Laura, We have no disagreement in that we may worship the Lord on the first day, the second day, and so on. I worship God daily. This is not keeping the Sabbath. OK So I am using Sabbath and worship interchangeable. Of course I worship daily but I meant attend a place of worship. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
What about DAvidM's remark to kill those who do not observe Saturday. That's me. I don't observe Sat. above any day. He must be advocating only 9 of the 10. I didn't think you had a clue as to what Michael was talking about. Read it again. He's not advocating a Sunday only day as you seem to be advocating a Saturday only day.
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
David, I think you are getting confused about the following statement: In March 1893, the International Religious Liberty Association PRINTED THESE RESOLUTIONS IN A TRACT entitled Appeal and Remonstrance. On RECEIPT OF ONE OF THESE, THE EDITOR of the Catholic Mirror of Baltimore, Maryland, PUBLISHED a series of four editorials, which appeared in that paper September, 2, 9, 16, and 23, 1893. I think the meaning is that the CC received the Resolutions tract sent by the 7th Day Adventists to the Supreme Court to protest a suit brought by the Presbyterians. When the CC received that same tract, then the CC wrote the following series of articles entitled Rome's Challenge. That is why the CC article contains so many references to the fact that the Adventists are the only Protestants to honor the Sabbath, and then go on to criticize the rest of the Protestant believers. Izzy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Dear Laura, the Practical One, I dont think that being in the majority is necessarily an indication of correctness. (Wide is the road, and broad is the way that leads to destruction; and many there are upon it.My translation). I would not say that anyone who does not honor the Sabbath is not in right standing with God. I do think they are not obeying the 4th commandment. I also think this is not an issue that should divide Christians, one way or the other. Of course, I think obeying is better than not obeying, or I wouldnt do it. And I certainly believe there are special blessings involved in obedience. How practical it is to obey should not be an issue. Heaven forbid it would confuse the soccer Moms of America! J I also dont think there should be any bickering about this. Each should present his/her best discussion, and then trust the God to be God. Its between you and Him. I dont lose one wink of sleep over who does or doesnt honor the Sabbath. (Although I was up writing about it last night after the neighbors fire alarm woke up the neighborhood!) Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? Please understand that I have no intent to insult another believer. However it was inferred that those of us (who by the way are the majority) who worship on Sunday are somehow not in right standing with God by doing so. Look at it from a practical viewpoint. If every denomination picked a different day to worship we would have chaos. Schools would have a time scheduling extra curricular activities. Workplaces would have a terrible time with schedules. It would create division between everyone. Can't you just see it now. OK the Saturday kids will have their practice on Sunday at 5 and the Sunday kids will practice at 5:00 on Saturday. Please understand that the game will be held on Saturday when the Saturday Worshippers get home from church so be prepared for the game to start late. I don't think God is impressed with this kind of bickering. Laura So again I say, you should not criticize and insult Believers who differ with you on this
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 6:15
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10
commandments?
What about
DAvidM's remark to kill those who do not observe Saturday. That's
me. I don't observe Sat. above any day.
I cannot find that post. But I
have ansered this question for you at least two times before. Here it is
again:
A) I believe that God shall execute the
penalty ofthese laws upon those who do not repent of such
deeds.
REV 21:7 He that
overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his
God, and
he shall be my son. REV 21:8 But the
fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable,
and
murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and
all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with
fire and
brimstone: which is the second death.
B) For us sojourners and pilgrims, with
no continuing city here, we have a series ofthings that we may
do:
1) Make the sins known:
MAT
18:15 ¶ {Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and
tell him
his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear
thee, thou
hast gained thy brother.} MAT
18:16 {But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or
two more,
that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may
be
established.} MAT 18:17
{And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the
church:
but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as
an heathen
man and a publican.}
2) Put out of the assembly:
1CO
5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the
destruction of the
flesh,
that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
3) Recognize when God works through man's
governments:
1) ROM
13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if
thou do
that which
is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain:
for he is
the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon
him that
doeth evil.
4) Be ready to have mercy when someone
repents:
2CO
2:6 Sufficient to such a man [is] this punishment, which
[was
inflicted] of many. 2CO
2:7 So that contrariwise ye [ought] rather to forgive
[him], and
comfort [him], lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up
with
overmuch sorrow. 2CO
2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm [your]
love
toward
him. 2CO 2:9
For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof
of you,
whether ye be obedient in all things.
2CO 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I [forgive] also: for
if I
forgave
any thing, to whom I forgave [it], for your sakes [forgave I it]
in the
person of Christ; 2CO
2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not
ignorant
of his devices.
--Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
What you believe is not according to the Old Testament teaching on the Sabbath. The Old Testament does not say God will do it. The more I discuss this the more I am convinced you are not consistent on the Sabbath and therefore wrong.
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO ASK YOU? WHY ARE YOU BEING SO DECEPTIVE ON THIS? DO YOU BELIEVE CHRISTIANS ARE SINNING/WRONG (WHATEVER) FOR NOT OBSERVING THE SABBATH AS YOU DO
What about DAvidM's remark to kill those who do not observe Saturday. That's me. I don't observe Sat. above any day.
I cannot find that post. But I have ansered this question for you at least two times before. Here it is again:
A) I believe that God shall execute the penalty of these laws upon those who do not repent of such deeds.
REV 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
REV 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and
murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all
liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire
and brimstone: which is the second death.
B) For us sojourners and pilgrims, with no continuing city here, we have a series of things that we may do:
1) Make the sins known:
MAT 18:15 ¶ {Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell
him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee,
thou hast gained thy brother.}
MAT 18:16 {But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two
more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be
established.}
MAT 18:17 {And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church:
but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an
heathen man and a publican.}
2) Put out of the assembly:
1CO 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
3) Recognize when God works through man's governments:
1) ROM 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that
which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for
he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him
that doeth evil.
4) Be ready to have mercy when someone repents:
2CO 2:6 Sufficient to such a man [is] this punishment, which [was
inflicted] of many.
2CO 2:7 So that contrariwise ye [ought] rather to forgive [him], and
comfort [him], lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with
overmuch sorrow.
2CO 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm [your] love toward
him.
2CO 2:9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of
you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
2CO 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I [forgive] also: for if I forgave
any thing, to whom I forgave [it], for your sakes [forgave I it] in
the person of Christ;
2CO 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant
of his devices.
--Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Why act like the Pharisees and try to pull trick questions The more I talk to you the more I see you as a Pharisee.
Dear Glenn,
Do you believe what Jesus said here?
MAT 5:17 {Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am
not come to destroy, but to fulfill.}
MAT 5:18 {For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
fulfilled.}
MAT 5:19 {Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom
of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall
be called great in the kingdom of heaven.}
MAT 15:9 {But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the
commandments of men.}
--Marlin
MAR 7:7 {Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the
commandments of men.}
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? What you believe is not according to the Old Testament teaching on the Sabbath. The Old Testament does not say God will do it. Dear Glenn, God is doing it. The Nation of Israel has been cast out of the land and is dispersed. The Levitical priesthood has been taken from it. Israel was sent into Babylon for Sabbath violations. A new covenent is drawn up with better promises, and higher standards. LEV 26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.LEV 26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye [be] in your enemies' land; [even] then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.LEV 26:35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? I reworded it Maybe that will lhelp. Laura OK Marlin Let me know if I am correct. If in my heart, I have no problem with the Sabbath being on Sunday then it is OK. Dear Laura, Forget about me. I am nothing. Would it bother you if God has a problem with it? But in your case, you feel it is wrong to observe the Sabbath on Sunday so if you don't worship on Sat then you are wrong. The Sabbath is the Sabbath. It has not been changed. If I love Jesus, I will keep his comandments. 1JO 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. Love, Marlin
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Glenn, Actually I think thats what they called them in the articleI didnt know the difference because I never heard of them before. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 8:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? Wrong. The 7th Day Adventists are not the only Protestants to honor the Sabbath. There are 7th Day Baptists. There may even be more. Check out the Handbook of Denominaitons.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
WRONG. What you believe is not according to the Old Testament teaching on the Sabbath. The Old Testament does not say God will do it. Dear Glenn, God is doing it. The Nation of Israel has been cast out of the land and is dispersed. The Levitical priesthood has been taken from it. Israel was sent into Babylon for Sabbath violations. A new covenent is drawn up with better promises, and higher standards. LEV 26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. LEV 26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye [be] in your enemies' land; [even] then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths. LEV 26:35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. --Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
You are misusing the Bible just as the Pharisees misused it. Dear Glenn, I fail to see the trick in the question. Do you believe that heaven and earth have passed away? I see you are back to labels and pot shots again; thanks for the blessings. (Mar. 5:11)
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Truth is truth. You are not answering my questions. YOU are back to asking questions while not being able to them. A Pharisee is not a label but a group of people. YOU JUST CAN'T COME CLEAN. YOU REMIND ME OF THE MORMONS. This stuff about you don't know if the 7th Day Adventist Church claims to be the one and only true church is suspect. If you have fellowship with them, then ask them their official church position. YOU JUST WON'T ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT MY BEING WRONG FOR REJECTING OLD TESTAMENT TEACHING ON THE SABBATH. THIS TELLS ME YOU ARE UP TO TRICKS. I HAVE RESPECT FOR PHARISEES. Dear Glenn, I fail to see the trick in the question. Do you believe that heaven and earth have passed away? I see you are back to labels and pot shots again; thanks for the blessings. (Mar. 5:11)
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
HA HA HA HA BACK YOU YOUR OLD TRICKS LIKE THE PHARISEES. I have no respect for your trickery. Dear Laura, Forget about me. I am nothing. Would it bother you if God has a problem with it?
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Glenn, This seemed to me to be a very fair statement. It seems that you are back to your old tricks. I cant hear you when you are screaming..Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? HA HA HA HA BACK YOU YOUR OLD TRICKS LIKE THE PHARISEES. I have no respect for your trickery. Dear Laura, Forget about me. I am nothing. Would it bother you if God has a problem with it?
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Marlin wrote: This link appears to be a reprint of the article on a Catholic web-site. http://www.immaculateheart.com/MaryOnLine/html/apologetics.html Right, but at this site, the credit is given to a Seventh-Day Adventist. * A Note From the Editors of Mary OnLine+ Credit for this article's appearance here must go, in a case of delicious irony, to the Bible Light Home Page and to Michael Scheifler, a Seventh Day Adventist. * So, yet again, the Seventh Day Adventist hands are all over it, and so it still appears that the actual arguments were written by Seventh Day Adventists, not the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, I could be wrong because I haven't fully researched it and compared the original article to what the Catholic Mirror published. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Glenn wrote: What about DAvidM's remark to kill those who do not observe Saturday. Marlin wrote: I cannot find that post. But I have ansered this question for you at least two times before. Here it is again: A)I believe that God shall execute the penalty of these laws upon those who do not repent of such deeds. B)For us sojourners and pilgrims, with no continuing city here, we have a series of things that we may do: 1) Make the sins known: 2) Put out of the assembly: 3) Recognize when God works through man's governments: 4) Be ready to have mercy when someone repents: Your answer is according to the new covenant, not according to Torah which is where your foundation for sabbath keeping is found. The requirement of Torah with regard to a sabbath breaker is to take them outside the community and the congregation was to stone him with stones. This is exactly what was done with Stephen in Acts 7:58 when they found him guilty of blasphemy. We sometimes have difficulty appreciating this aspect of God's law because we as a people do not personally carry out sentences against criminals. Nevertheless, surely you must recognize that in God's law, it is the civil duty of the people to execute the criminal guilty of a capital crime. In our society, we simply serve on a jury and render a verdict of guilt, then let someone else carry out the sentence. In God's law, the people throw the stones and kill the criminal, not the judicial system. The point is that if someone feels that everyone must have strict obedience to the letter of the law, then it must be all the law, all 613 commandments, and not just those that we pick and choose. You might think it improper for someone to keep only 9 of the 10 commandments, but you don't seem to care too much about all 613 commandments of the Torah. I truly believe that the concept of covenants must be understood, and a recognition must be made that a covenant with Jesus is different from one of the Mosaic covenants (there was actually more than one covenant through Moses). Furthermore, there are a lot of prophetic considerations in early church history about how we have now moved from celebrating the seventh day to celebrating the eighth day. It probably would be good for us to consider some of these arguments. Perhaps more on this later when time permits. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA p.s. I notice that you apparently type e-mail on the sabbath. Many sabbath keepers would consider that a violation of the sabbath. Have you ever considered that? I'd like to hear any comments you have about that. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
In a message dated 11/16/2002 9:47:54 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Laura, Forget about me. I am nothing. Would it bother you if God has a problem with it? Not if I was sure it was God and not some man's opinion. But you have not answered my question. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
In a message dated 11/16/2002 7:44:18 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So again I say, you should not criticize and insult Believers who differ with you on this Did I insult anyone? Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
When Marlin is up to his old tricks I will expose him. This is not mean. This is standing up for the truth. Marlin is not answering questions. I did not ask for a "fair statement". I asked him a question. I have asked him many many manyy manyyy times this question and he pulls Pharisee trickery. He needs to get the guts to say what he means without trickery. I have no respect for Pharisee questions. MARLIN, I REJECT OLD TESTAMENT TEACHING THAT CHRISTIANS MUST OBSERVE THE SABBATH TODAY. IN FACT I HAVE CAUGHT YOU NOT OBSERVING IT ACCORDING TO THE OLD TESTAMENT. I SHOULD BE KILLED FOR NOT OBSERVING IT. NOT ONLY AM I NOT GOING TO OBSERVE IT, BUT I REJECT IT AS FALSE TEACHING. I REJECT IT AS BONDAGE. This kind of teaching is strongly rebuked in the book of Galatians. Glenn, This seemed to me to be a very fair statement. It seems that you are back to your old tricks. I can’t hear you when you are screaming…..Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? HA HA HA HA BACK YOU YOUR OLD TRICKS LIKE THE PHARISEES. I have no respect for your trickery. Dear Laura, Forget about me. I am nothing. Would it bother you if God has a problem with it?
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Laura; sorryno! That was just the tail end of a previous post that tagged along. J Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? In a message dated 11/16/2002 7:44:18 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So again I say, you should not criticize and insult Believers who differ with you on this Did I insult anyone? Laura
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Glenn, I wish you wouldnt be so bashful about how you really feel! J Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? When Marlin is up to his old tricks I will expose him. This is not mean. This is standing up for the truth. Marlin is not answering questions. I did not ask for a fair statement. I asked him a question. I have asked him many many manyy manyyy times this question and he pulls Pharisee trickery. He needs to get the guts to say what he means without trickery. I have no respect for Pharisee questions. MARLIN, I REJECT OLD TESTAMENT TEACHING THAT CHRISTIANS MUST OBSERVE THE SABBATH TODAY. IN FACT I HAVE CAUGHT YOU NOT OBSERVING IT ACCORDING TO THE OLD TESTAMENT. I SHOULD BE KILLED FOR NOT OBSERVING IT. NOT ONLY AM I NOT GOING TO OBSERVE IT, BUT I REJECT IT AS FALSE TEACHING. I REJECT IT AS BONDAGE. This kind of teaching is strongly rebuked in the book of Galatians. Glenn, This seemed to me to be a very fair statement. It seems that you are back to your old tricks. I cant hear you when you are screaming..Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? HA HA HA HA BACK YOU YOUR OLD TRICKS LIKE THE PHARISEES. I have no respect for your trickery. Dear Laura, Forget about me. I am nothing. Would it bother you if God has a problem with it?
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
I don't have anything personally against Marlin. I like him a lot. But when he pulls his "no answer" trickery then that is sad. According to the Old Testament I should be killed because I reject Old Testament observing of the Sabbath. I don't remember Marlin ever answering my question or Laura's as to whether he believes it is wrong for Christians to reject the Sabbath. Glenn, I wish you wouldn’t be so bashful about how you really feel! J Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? When Marlin is up to his old tricks I will expose him. This is not mean. This is standing up for the truth. Marlin is not answering questions. I did not ask for a "fair statement". I asked him a question. I have asked him many many manyy manyyy times this question and he pulls Pharisee trickery. He needs to get the guts to say what he means without trickery. I have no respect for Pharisee questions. MARLIN, I REJECT OLD TESTAMENT TEACHING THAT CHRISTIANS MUST OBSERVE THE SABBATH TODAY. IN FACT I HAVE CAUGHT YOU NOT OBSERVING IT ACCORDING TO THE OLD TESTAMENT. I SHOULD BE KILLED FOR NOT OBSERVING IT. NOT ONLY AM I NOT GOING TO OBSERVE IT, BUT I REJECT IT AS FALSE TEACHING. I REJECT IT AS BONDAGE. This kind of teaching is strongly rebuked in the book of Galatians. Glenn, This seemed to me to be a very fair statement. It seems that you are back to your old tricks. I can’t hear you when you are screaming…..Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Give me liberty or give me death. Marlin, you have not refuted the commentary I sent. Your mind is made up so I won't confuse you with the New Testament. I could respect this doctrine IF it followed the Old Testament but instead it is a "pick and choose" what I want OT deal. I have checked it out and at least here, 7th Day Adventist STILL claim to be the one and only true church. PS. Talked to a nursery here and they told me 40% of the entire year's business is Christmas business. You need to get with the Christmas program. "St. Patrick's "DAY" -- Come join with us to worship JESUS as did the Irish Patrick of old on this coming Sabbath, the Seventh Day, commonly called "Saturday." Like other Christian Irishmen of his time, Patrick was a Sabbath-keeper, kept Passover and the dietary laws of Moses, and stressed keeping the Law of God. ." http://www.biblesabbath.org/tss/476/WearingTheGreen.html - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Glenn - I don't think you obey the Old Testament. Forgive me for being so bold, dear sister. :-) You might pick and choose a very minute part of the Old Testament.Yes, thats very true. I am just working on obeying all 10, rather than 9, commandments. IzzyMichael D: Izzy, I am curious, but what do you hope to achieve by seeting yourself to obey the ten commandments? Also, If I may add... Keeping your Sabbath is something you must do because you need to obey your conscience (from what you have shared), but I would suggest that it is not part of fulfilling the ten commandments, because the commandment of Sabbath in the NT is our rest in Jesus as I previously mentioned re Hebrews 4. Sabbath in the Church is no longer a day. If we have worry orunbelief, or if we try to be accepted by God through our good works, or our faithfulness/obedience to Him... we have broken God's Sabbath, we enter into God's Sabbath when we enter into the rest of faith, as Hebrews 4 says ...he that has entered into his rest has ceased from his own works as God ceased from His... We accept the finished work of Jesus on the cross, that is the fulfilling of the OT type that was the seventh da y sabbath. Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dearest Glenn, I agree with Marlins answers which you have already read on his last couple of posts to answer Acts 20:7. How do you refute that? How also do you refute the Catholics own claim that THEY were they ones who changed our worship day from Sat to Sun I agree that we are not justified by following the law. I just want to obey because I want to! I want to go a step higher than just getting by on as little obedience as possible because I can still be saved whatever I do. Who's idea is that? This is freedom: obeying out of love. Izzy Now wait a minute. You, dear sweet Lzzy, have not refuted Acts 20:7. You have pretty much ignored it. If you want be like the Mormons and say Acts 20:7 is an error/mistake in the Bible, that is your business. But don't say it doesn't matter to me. :-) Am I being nice enough in the face of such erroneous doctrine? :-) It is sad that Christians put themselves back into bondage. It was the American patriot Patrick Henry who said, "Give me liberty or give me death". He knew what it was like to live under the thumb of a tyrant. Along the way, he had the good fortune to get a small taste of liberty. IN THE SAME SENSE, THE LAW SERVES AS A TYRANT. It shows no mercy and hates anything related to freedom. Anyone who weds himself to the law will be entangled in the chains o f bondage. WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE for the Christian believer? LIBERTY IN CHRIST. Why? 1. Because Christ has freed the believer v12. Because the law is not God's way for a man to be justified. v 2-4 IF A PERSON SEEKS TO BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW, CHRIST CAN HAVE NO EFFECT UPON HIM -- HE IS FALLEN FROM GRACE.3. Because the hope of righteousness is by faith. v 5-6The Outline Study BiblePatrick Henry's words are the words of a Christian also. Laura, You are welcome to that opinion, but the Bible says the 7th day; Sabbath; Saturday. Period. Izzy, Paul says the one who esteems one day above the other is free to do so. The one who esteems all days alike is also free to do so. But for the one to condemn the other for doing so is sin, unless that person is depending on their observance as a requirement for salvation. If changing Gods commandment to whatever day you prefer doesnt bother you, thats up to you, Paul says she could do this and your business. But dont say it doesnt matter to me. Izzy Listen to Paul... Rom. 14:5-6. 5. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike.Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6.He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord: and he that regadeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it... Izzy and others, I have tried to say this in other posts, but I want to make sure that it is very clearly stated: There is no Sabbath day commandment in the Church age. The Sabbath is not Saturday, nor is it Sunday. There is no where in the Church age where we are commanded to keep a Sabbath day. The sabbath is a relationship of total surrender and trust in Jesus. When a man ceases from his own works and walks in the Spirit. Paul says it this way in Galatians 5:6. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision availeth anything, neither uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Dear Glenn,
Has heaven and earth passed away?
MAT 5:17 {Think not that I am come to
destroy the law, or the prophets: I
am not
come to destroy, but to fulfil.}MAT 5:18 {For verily I say
unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot
or one
tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all
be
fulfilled.}MAT 5:19 {Whosoever therefore shall break one
of these least
commandments,
and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the
kingdom of
heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same
shall be
called great in the kingdom of heaven.}
Love,
Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Dear Glen,
Unlike others, who try to rest every day, I am busy
working the six days, according the fourth commandment. I do believe that
God is working with your heart in the matter of obedience, otherwise you would
not have become so irate with the answers I have provided. :-) It is those "scholars" whom I fault for creating
such confusion with the clear word of God.
I was able to scan through many of the commentaries you
have attached below and I am left with the samefeelingsthat Christ
had when the "scholars" of His day came to tempt him:
"And Jesus answering said unto them, {Do ye not therefore
err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?}" (MAR
12:24)
When it comes to these "scholars," I am left with this
dilemma:
PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to
his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.PRO 26:5 Answer
a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
I believe this proverb applies to them, as well as the words of
Jesus.
PRO 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but
a prating fool shall fall.
MAT 5:17 {Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or
the prophets: I
am not
come to destroy, but to fulfill.}MAT 5:18 {For verily I
say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot
or one
tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all
be
fulfilled.}
MAT 5:19 {Whosoever therefore shall break one of these
least
commandments,
and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the
kingdom of
heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same
shall be
called great in the kingdom of heaven.}MAT 15:9 {But in
vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines
the
commandments of men.}MAR 7:7 {Howbeit in vain do
they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines
the
commandments of men.}
Love,
Marlin
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:39
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10
commandments?
Read these commentaires if you like. I put "if you
like" trying to be nice. :-) That's for engaging in intellignent
conservation. To me this is a no brainer. If I must observe
the Sabbath I must kill my children for cursing. I either observe all of
the law or none of the law. I can't pick an choose which parts of
the law I want to obey. Not to mention death is also the law's penality
for homosexuality.Book of Acts Chapter 20 -
Read Chapter - Click
for Chapter Audio Study Resource List BCC - Commentary
on 20:7 DSN - Synopsis
on 20:7 GEB - Study
Notes on 20:7 GSB - Study
Notes on 20:7 JFB - Commentary
on 20:7 MHC-COM - Commentary
on 20:7 MHC-CON - Commentary
on 20:7 OCA - Commentary
on 20:7 PNT - Commentary
on 20:7 RWP - Study
Notes on 20:7 SRN - Study
Notes on 20:7 TSK - Commentary
on 20:7 TSK - Entry
for 20:7 WEN - Notes
on 20:7 NTB - Bread; Eucharist (The
Lord'S Supper); Worship; Zeal,
ReligiousTTT - Communion of
the Lord's Supper; Sabbath,
TheEBD - Luke; SabbathSBD - Lords
Supper20:7 - [In
Context|Original
Greek]On the R1163 first day of the week, when we R1164 were gathered together to break R1165 bread, Paul {began} talking to them, intending to leave
the next day, and he prolonged his message F449 until midnight.
The annual Sabbath, Pentecost, is so important to God that He
reserved it for pouring out His Holy Spirit in Acts 2. This was the
first week in the count
down.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
I would like for you to respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] below. He is writing to Laura and Izzy.
Laura, You are welcome to that opinion, but the Bible says the 7th day; Sabbath; Saturday. Period. Izzy, Paul says the one who esteems one day above the other is free to do so. The one who esteems all days alike is also free to do so. But for the one to condemn the other for doing so is sin, unless that person is depending on their observance as a requirement for salvation. If changing God’s commandment to whatever day you prefer doesn’t bother you, that’s up to you, Paul says she could do this and your business. But don’t say it doesn’t matter to me. Izzy Listen to Paul... Rom. 14:5-6.5. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord: and he that regadeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it... Izzy and others, I have tried to say this in other posts, but I want to make sure that it is very clearly stated:
There is no Sabbath day commandment in the Church age. The Sabbath is not Saturday, nor is it Sunday. There is no where in the Church age where we are commanded to keep a Sabbath day. The sabbath is a relationship of total surrender and trust in Jesus. When a man ceases from his own works and walks in the Spirit.
Paul says it this way in Galatians 5:6. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision availeth anything, neither uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.
Dear Glenn,
Has heaven and earth passed away?
MAT 5:17 {Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am
not come to destroy, but to fulfil.}
MAT 5:18 {For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
fulfilled.}
MAT 5:19 {Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom
of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall
be called great in the kingdom of heaven.}
Love,
Marlin
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
I get irate (Be ye angry and sin not. )when people tryt o take me back into religious bondage. I am sorry, but you have shown that your mind is made up. You are not open. I am trying to be nice so what I just said is really watered down with respect to you. Dear Glen, Unlike others, who try to rest every day, I am busy working the six days, according the fourth commandment. I do believe that God is working with your heart in the matter of obedience, otherwise you would not have become so irate with the answers I have provided. :-) It is those "scholars" whom I fault for creating such confusion with the clear word of God. I was able to scan through many of the commentaries you have attached below and I am left with the same feelings that Christ had when the "scholars" of His day came to tempt him:
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
"There is no Sabbath day commandment in the Church age. The Sabbath is not Saturday, nor is it Sunday. There is no where in the Church age where we are commanded to keep a Sabbath day. The Sabbath is a relationship of total surrender and trust in Jesus. When a man ceases from his own works and walks in the Spirit." Dear Michael, Too manypeople read "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" and the first thing they want to do is "Forget the sabbath day" and tear it out of the ten comandments. But you are different! :-) I am trying to understand your statement. First, there is no Sabbath day commandment, but no, there is a sabbath. ? Sabbath="total surrender and trust in Jesus." Sabbath="When a man ceases from his own works and walks in the Spirit." It must be fantastic to keep the Sabbath 7 days a week. I would love to do that. But, if I were to do that, my wife and children would starve and I would be worse than an infidel. Besides, the Lord gave me the 6 days to use for a purpose. Would it be right to not receive that gift with thanksgiving? Could you please tell me how you spiritually keep the first part of the 4th commandment which says "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work" When do you keep the 6 days? Love, Marlin
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Michael D: Izzy, do you hope to achieve by seeting yourself to obey the ten commandments? What do you hope to achieve by obeying the other nine? Or dont you believe they exist anymore, either? Izzy Also, If I may add... Keeping your Sabbath is something you must do because you need to obey your conscience (from what you have shared), but I would suggest that it is not part of fulfilling the ten commandments, because the commandment of Sabbath in the NT is our rest in Jesus as I previously mentioned re Hebrews 4. Why did Jesus, the apostles, and all the Believers keep the Sabbath? Please write specifically what scripture you think says this. Sabbath in the Church is no longer a day. If we have worry orunbelief, or if we try to be accepted by God through our good works, or our faithfulness/obedience to Him... we have broken God's Sabbath, we enter into God's Sabbath when we enter into the rest of faith, as Hebrews 4 says ...he that has entered into his rest has ceased from his own works as God ceased from His... We accept the finished work of Jesus on the cross, that is the fulfilling of the OT type y sabbath. So you have ceased from all good works? And from obeying Gods laws? Where does it say to do this? Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Jesus kept the Sabbath because He lived under the Old Testament. ALL THE BELIEVERS DID NOT DO NOT KEEP THE SABBATH! Wow, sister. You really missed it on that one. :-) Why did Jesus, the apostles, and all the Believers keep the Sabbath? Please write specifically what scripture you think says this.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Ha Ha, that is the easy way out. Just ignore the book of Galatians. :-) Now wait a minute. You, dear sweet Lzzy, have not refuted Acts 20:7. You have pretty much ignored it. Have you read ANY of the previous posts regarding this? Did you read Marlin’s very clear explanation? Please read it. Izzy Read Jesus’ words about, “If you love Me, you will obey My Commandments.” (He wrote them!) IN THE SAME SENSE, THE LAW SERVES AS A TYRANT. It shows no mercy and hates anything related to freedom. Anyone who weds himself to the law will be enf bondage. WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE for the Christian believer? LIBERTY IN CHRIST. Why? 1. Because Christ has freed the believer v1 2. Because the law is not God's way for a man to be justified. v 2-4 IF A PERSON SEEKS TO BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW, CHRIST CAN HAVE NO EFFECT UPON HIM -- HE IS FALLEN FROM GRACE. 3. Because the hope of righteousness is by faith. v 5-6 The Outline Study Bible Patrick Henry's words are the words of a Christian also. I can only conclude that you have not ready ANYTHING I wrote up to this point. If you did, there is no point in writing it again. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
No talking to me then. Marlin ignores and you do too the outline I sent on Galatians. I have said before, I don't have time to come down off the wall. I read stuff like that years ago I'm sure. Marlin, has nothing new to say so far. I have been wanting to say for days and couldn't get up the nerve. But here goes. Anyone who would want to go back under the bondage of law, because they like it, needs to see a counselor. Has anyone bothered to read the amazing article that Marlin recommended a few days ago? If you have time to argue your point, you have time to read this amazing document; because it is so true! I refuse to discuss the Sabbath issue with anyone from now on who has not read it: http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/chalng.htm. Then we can talk. (No yelling, Glenn!) J Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Yes I read the article. I found it to be quite slanted. Laura
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Glenn, You seem to be getting a bit testy hereremember: sweetness and kindness! Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? The traffic laws have changed. YOU, MARLIN, CAN KEEP ALL 10 COMMANDEMNTS AND GO STRAIGHT TO HELL!!1 DID YOU HEAR ME?? THE LAW WILL NOT SAVE YOU. AND I SAY (I NOW THIS SOUND ROUGH) IF YOU ARE DEPENDING UPON THE LAW TO SAVE YOU, YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL IF YOU DIE IN THAT CONDITION. Dear Glenn, I'd like to see you argue this before the judge in traffic court! Your honor, all the traffic laws have been fulfilled by Jesus so I don't have to obey them now.
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Glenn, You still dont understand that I am not seeking justification through obeying the Sabbath commandment. Do you think I am lying? Do you know my motives better than I do? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? I don't think you even obey the Sabbath commandment. If you study it carefully, I suspect you never observe it exactly. OF COURSE, I am probably wrong. :-) What is being overlooked here is that you can obey all 10 commandments and go to hell. For example, you can be innocent of not killing anyone in the Old Testament. If you hated your brother but didn't kill him you obeyed the commandment thou shalt not kill. The law is outward, but with me, the law is written inside on my heart. BUT WITH JESUS THE STAKES ARE MUCH HIGHER. If you hate your brother, you have broken the commandment thou shalt not kill as Jesus expanded upon it even if you didn't physically kill him. Glenn - I don't think you obey the Old Testament. Forgive me for being so bold, dear sister. :-) You might pick and choose a very minute part of the Old Testament. Yes, thats very true. I am just working on obeying all 10, rather than 9, commandments. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
I know it. It seems the truth is hard to swallow. :-) OR MY ME, TO WATER DOWN THE TRUTH IN SMALL BITS AND PIECES IS HARD FOR ME TO DO. I spent a thousand years in religious bondage (a slight exaggeration) and it is so sickening to see people living in such a state. I guess you could say it turned me against religion. I read a book many years ago "How To Be A Christian Without Being Religious". It's probably out of print now, but it was great. Glenn, You seem to be getting a bit testy here—remember: sweetness and kindness! Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Dear Izzy, Far be it from me to think you are lying. I in no way think you are lying. However, I think you MIGHT be doing it without realizing it. But I am wrong, I'm sure. :-) WHY would you want to follow the law when Christ HIMSELF is the fullfillment of the law? Luke 24:27,44. Glenn, You still don’t understand that I am not seeking justification through obeying the Sabbath commandment. Do you think I am lying? Do you know my motives better than I do? Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
I've been out of town for awhile. Before I left, Glenn said he was stepping out of the discussion, so I thought I would find just a few posts from Marlin and Izzy, and maybe a few others when I got back. Instead, there were nearly 100 posts! It doesn't look like I'm going to have time to get too involved with this discussion unless you all back off a little and maybe only post once or twice a day each. Based upon my reading all of your posts, following is my position in a nutshell: 1. I do not believe that if the Bible is silent on something that Christians can then make whatever choice they want to and it is ok. We should still walk by the rule of love and liberty and do that which comes from love. In other words, a person can still sin (still walk outside love) in doing things that are not specifically forbidden by Scripture. Silence of Scripture should not be used as either a license for liberty or as a prohibition. Instead, believers should exercise judgment about what is right and what is wrong. 2. I do not believe that we can be justified by the law in any shape or form. The purpose of the law is to show that we are sinners in need of a Savior. Nevertheless, grace does not mean that we are free to transgress the law either. Therefore, the wise will study the law and understand that the law is spiritual and there is much meaning and understanding to be gained by it, and the truth is that we fulfill the law and keep it all when we walk in love. 3. I believe that we keep Passover when we see that Yeshua is the Passover lamb. Likewise, I believe we keep Sabbath when we enter into the rest (the Kingdom of God). 4. When considering the law, we need to understand covenants. The law was a covenant which is different from the covenant with Jesus Christ. I do not think it wise for believers, especially Gentiles, to seek better standing with God through keeping the Torah. Consider the following passage: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was c ontrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.' (Col 2:14) This passage and others clearly indicate that the written ordinances were nailed to the cross and taken out of the way. What this means to me is that whether you keep the ordinances of the Torah or not, it does not mean anything to God at all because he has established a new covenant upon better promises. What matters to God is that you walk in love toward Him and toward your neighbor. 5. I would support civil government making the following crimes capital crimes: homosexuality, adultery, and incorrigible children. Glenn was not rightly dividing the word when he said that the Torah called for execution in the case of a child cussing. The subject there was incorrigible and rebellious children. Yes, they should be executed. Our society would be better if we had a law like this. 6. Despite my thoughts that the law of the land should reflect the Torah with regard to subjects like the ones mentioned, I love mercy and forgiveness, and I would love and help those who transgress these laws just like I currently love and help murderers, thieves, etc. 7. One aspect of the law that would be interesting to discuss is the penalty for breaking the Sabbath, which would be death. Unfortunately, I don't have time to share my thoughts on this right now, but it seems to me to go right to the heart of the matter. God considered keeping the Sabbath very important. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
I will not, in no uncertain terms (note double negative), allow any person to bind on me anything that is not bound in the Bible. Those who follow the "argument from silence" are doomed to believe anything. I have seen on on TT OVER AND OVER. Just as Americans have to fight for their physical freedom, I WILL FIGHT FOR MY SPIRITUAL FREEDOM. I WILL NOT GO BACK TO RELIGIOUS BONDAGE. Freedom in Christ is a hill I will die on. 1. I do not believe that if the Bible is silent on something that Christians can then make whatever choice they want to and it is ok. We should still walk by the rule of love and liberty and do that which comes from love. In other words, a person can still sin (still walk outside love) in doing things that are not specifically forbidden by Scripture. Silence of Scripture should not be used as either a license for "liberty" or as a prohibition. Instead, believers should exercise judgment about what is right and what is wrong.
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Hi Glenn, I think I understand where you are coming from, as far as not being under bondage. You apparently were beaten down by legalistic attitudes in the past, and rightfully are wiser and more cautious because of it. You are right that we are free from that! However, in keeping the Sabbath, (which by the way, I have never insisted that YOU must do), I do not feel at all under bondageno more than keeping the other commandments. I have experienced Sabbath Keeping as a wonderful Gift from God! (This came as quite a surprise to me, when I first began the practice simply out of an inner tugging to obey on this.) Imagine having one whole day/week to do nothing but spend with the Lord. No work! No pressures! No nothing but Jesus and His word. It is not only not a burden; I look forward to this blessed time each week. And, in the process, I feel closer to Him because of our precious time together; and because I know that I have disciplined myself to obey Him. Preparing for the Sabbath on Friday, rushing around at the last minute to be ready, is like a little picture of the Bride preparing for her Bridegroom. The anticipation! I cant express the holiness of it except to ask you to close your eyes and remember how it feels when you are outside all alone after a big snowstorm: Everything is hushed, white, and awe-inspiring. The air is so clean and still. You dont want to disturb a thing; just take it all in. That is what I mean by the holiness of the Sabbath; from the moment you light the candles and pray at sunset on Friday, clear through the next 24 hours. A day that used to be mine is now HIS. His presence is what makes it holy. By honoring the Sabbath you make space for Him; and He does come in. What a joy! Izzy PS (I hope David does not think that we were agreeing that silence on a matter in the Bible is an excuse for sin or lack of wisdom and discernment!) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? I will not, in no uncertain terms (note double negative), allow any person to bind on me anything that is not bound in the Bible. Those who follow the argument from silence are doomed to believe anything. I have seen on on TT OVER AND OVER. Just as Americans have to fight for their physical freedom, I WILL FIGHT FOR MY SPIRITUAL FREEDOM. I WILL NOT GO BACK TO RELIGIOUS BONDAGE. Freedom in Christ is a hill I will die on. 1. I do not believe that if the Bible is silent on something that Christians can then make whatever choice they want to and it is ok. We should still walk by the rule of love and liberty and do that which comes from love. In other words, a person can still sin (still walk outside love) in doing things that are not specifically forbidden by Scripture. Silence of Scripture should not be used as either a license for liberty or as a prohibition. Instead, believers should exercise judgment about what is right and what is wrong.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Izzy, I understand what you are saying now. I have taken time like this. I do take time like this in the future. Time to be alone with God. I didn't see that as observing the Sabbath. I don't do it on any particular day or time schedule. I have done it days at a time and only an hour or 5 at a time. I have actually had experiences that people would say I am lying about. My best time alone with God is late late at night. Hi Glenn, I think I understand where you are coming from, as far as not being under bondage. You apparently were beaten down by legalistic attitudes in the past, and rightfully are wiser and more cautious because of it. You are right that we are free from that! However, in keeping the Sabbath, (which by the way, I have never insisted that YOU must do), I do not feel at all under bondage—no more than keeping the other commandments. I have experienced Sabbath Keeping as a wonderful Gift from God! (This came as quite a surprise to me, when I first began the practice simply out of an inner tugging to obey on this.) Imagine having one whole day/week to do nothing but spend with the Lord. No work! No pressures! No nothing but Jesus and His word. It is not only not a burden; I look forward to this blessed time each week. And, in the process, I feel closer to Him because of our precious time together; and because I know that I have disciplined myself to obey Him. Preparing for the Sabbath on Friday, rushing around at the last minute to be ready, is like a little picture of the Bride preparing for her Bridegroom. The anticipation! I can’t express the holiness of it except to ask you to close your eyes and remember how it feels when you are outside all alone after a big snowstorm: Everything is hushed, white, and awe-inspiring. The air is so clean and still. You don’t want to disturb a thing; just take it all in. That is what I mean by the holiness of the Sabbath; from the moment you light the candles and pray at sunset on Friday, clear through the next 24 hours. A day that used to be mine is now HIS. His presence is what makes it holy. By honoring the Sabbath you make space for Him; and He does come in. What a joy! Izzy PS (I hope David does not think that we were agreeing that silence on a matter in the Bible is an excuse for sin or lack of wisdom and discernment!) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? I will not, in no uncertain terms (note double negative), allow any person to bind on me anything that is not bound in the Bible. Those who follow the "argument from silence" are doomed to believe anything. I have seen on on TT OVER AND OVER. Just as Americans have to fight for their physical freedom, I WILL FIGHT FOR MY SPIRITUAL FREEDOM. I WILL NOT GO BACK TO RELIGIOUS BONDAGE. Freedom in Christ is a hill I will die on. 1. I do not believe that if the Bible is silent on something that Christians can then make whatever choice they want to and it is ok. We should still walk by the rule of love and liberty and do that which comes from love. In other words, a person can still sin (still walk outside love) in doing things that are not specifically forbidden by Scripture. Silence of Scripture should not be used as either a license for "liberty" or as a prohibition. Instead, believers should exercise judgment about what is right and what is wrong.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
I have experienced Sabbath Keeping as a wonderful Gift from God! So do we! --Marlin - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:29 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Acts 20:7 Biblical days are reckoned from sunset to sunset. Thiswasa Saturday night meeting for the sake of fellowshipping over a meal and hearing Paul speak before he left the next morning, Sunday,to continue his journey. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? No, brother. I sent you many commentaries (NONE Catholic) where Acts 20:7 is the Christian day of worship. Bless you heart, (am I being nice now?) you never refuted it. It seems you just ignore what I say and repeat your beliefs. Please, I am trying to be nice and treat you as a good brother in Christ. But it seems your mind is made up and you are not interested in refuting what I say. "Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Roman Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Laura, You are welcome to that opinion, but the Bible says the 7th day; Sabbath; Saturday. Period. If changing Gods commandment to whatever day you prefer doesnt bother you, thats up to you, and your business. But dont say it doesnt matter to me. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? The whole point of the sabbath was that God rested on the 7th day and we are to do the same. It doesn't matter what day it is
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
"...THEREFORE THIS WAS SUNDAY RECKONING BIBLICALLY" Dear Glenn, Yes, you are right. Notice in Acts 20:13, that the companions who were with Paul left while Paul stayed preaching. They rowed and sailed their boat around the peninsula, from Troas unto Assos, about 65 miles. The companionswaited until after the Sabbath to leave in their boat. Paul, in order to spend a little more time with his brethren in Troas, preached Saturday night, and continued Sunday morning on foot, across the peninsula, traveling19 and a half miles to meet his companions in Assos. They had actually just finished with the Days of Unleavened Bread, which contains two annual Sabbaths. You will notice that the word "day" in Acts 20:7 is in italics, supplied by the translators, but not in the original Greek. The word for "week" is Sabbaton, if I remember correctly, theplural word forweeks in this instance. The literal translation of this verse is "And upon the first of the weeks..." You see, they were supposed to count the weeks that lead up to the observance of Pentecost, another annual Sabbath Observed by New Testament believers. This was the first week in that count. The annual Sabbath, Pentecost, is so important to God that He reserved it for pouring outHis Holy Spirit in Acts 2. This was the first week in the count down. Acts 20:10 does not change the fourth commandment, it affirms it. Love, --Marlin - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? Then you made my point Biblical days are reckoned from sunset to sunset. THEREFORE THIS WAS SUNDAY RECKONING BIBLICALLY. The next day was Sunday too, until sunset. After sunset it was Monday reckoning Biblically.GlennGal. 5:1 Acts 20:7Biblical days are reckoned from sunset to sunset. This was a Saturday night meeting for the sake of fellowshipping over a meal and hearing Paul speak before he left the next morning, Sunday, to continue his journey.
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Dearest Glenn, I agree with Marlins answers which you have already read on his last couple of posts to answer Acts 20:7. How do you refute that? How also do you refute the Catholics own claim that THEY were they ones who changed our worship day from Sat to Sun I agree that we are not justified by following the law. I just want to obey because I want to! I want to go a step higher than just getting by on as little obedience as possible because I can still be saved whatever I do. This is freedom: obeying out of love. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 2:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? Now wait a minute. You, dear sweet Lzzy, have not refuted Acts 20:7. You have pretty much ignored it. If you want be like the Mormons and say Acts 20:7 is an error/mistake in the Bible, that is your business. But don't say it doesn't matter to me. :-) Am I being nice enough in the face of such erroneous doctrine? :-) It is sad that Christians put themselves back into bondage. It was the American patriot Patrick Henry who said, Give me liberty or give me death. He knew what it was like to live under the thumb of a tyrant. Along the way, he had the good fortune to get a small taste of liberty. IN THE SAME SENSE, THE LAW SERVES AS A TYRANT. It shows no mercy and hates anything related to freedom. Anyone who weds himself to the law will be entangled in the chains of bondage. WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE for the Christian believer? LIBERTY IN CHRIST. Why? 1. Because Christ has freed the believer v1 2. Because the law is not God's way for a man to be justified. v 2-4 IF A PERSON SEEKS TO BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW, CHRIST CAN HAVE NO EFFECT UPON HIM -- HE IS FALLEN FROM GRACE. 3. Because the hope of righteousness is by faith. v 5-6 The Outline Study Bible Patrick Henry's words are the words of a Christian also. Laura, You are welcome to that opinion, but the Bible says the 7th day; Sabbath; Saturday. Period. If changing Gods commandment to whatever day you prefer doesnt bother you, thats up to you, and your business. But dont say it doesnt matter to me. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Do you think that God of the Old Testament is wrong?
Could you worship a God like that?
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:39
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10
commandments?
Read these commentaires if you like. I put "if you
like" trying to be nice. :-) That's for engaging in intellignent
conservation. To me this is a no brainer. If I must observe
the Sabbath I must kill my children for cursing. I either observe all of
the law or none of the law. I can't pick an choose which parts of
the law I want to obey. Not to mention death is also the law's penality
for homosexuality.Book of Acts Chapter 20 -
Read Chapter - Click
for Chapter Audio Study Resource List BCC - Commentary
on 20:7 DSN - Synopsis
on 20:7 GEB - Study
Notes on 20:7 GSB - Study
Notes on 20:7 JFB - Commentary
on 20:7 MHC-COM - Commentary
on 20:7 MHC-CON - Commentary
on 20:7 OCA - Commentary
on 20:7 PNT - Commentary
on 20:7 RWP - Study
Notes on 20:7 SRN - Study
Notes on 20:7 TSK - Commentary
on 20:7 TSK - Entry
for 20:7 WEN - Notes
on 20:7 NTB - Bread; Eucharist (The
Lord'S Supper); Worship; Zeal,
ReligiousTTT - Communion of
the Lord's Supper; Sabbath,
TheEBD - Luke; SabbathSBD - Lords
Supper20:7 - [In
Context|Original
Greek]On the R1163 first day of the week, when we R1164 were gathered together to break R1165 bread, Paul {began} talking to them, intending to leave
the next day, and he prolonged his message F449 until midnight.
The annual Sabbath, Pentecost, is so important to God that He
reserved it for pouring out His Holy Spirit in Acts 2. This was the
first week in the count down.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
"Give me liberty or give me death". So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts. I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed. And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved. My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes. (PSA 119:44-48) I am verily a man [which am] a Jew, born in Tarsus, [a city] in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, [and] taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. (ACTS 22:3) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. (JAMES 1:25) - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? Now wait a minute. You, dear sweet Lzzy, have not refuted Acts 20:7. You have pretty much ignored it. If you want be like the Mormons and say Acts 20:7 is an error/mistake in the Bible, that is your business. But don't say it doesn't matter to me. :-) Am I being nice enough in the face of such erroneous doctrine? :-) It is sad that Christians put themselves back into bondage. It was the American patriot Patrick Henry who said, "Give me liberty or give me death". He knew what it was like to live under the thumb of a tyrant. Along the way, he had the good fortune to get a small taste of liberty. IN THE SAME SENSE, THE LAW SERVES AS A TYRANT. It shows no mercy and hates anything related to freedom. Anyone who weds himself to the law will be entangled in the chains of bondage. WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE for the Christian believer? LIBERTY IN CHRIST. Why? 1. Because Christ has freed the believer v12. Because the law is not God's way for a man to be justified. v 2-4 IF A PERSON SEEKS TO BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW, CHRIST CAN HAVE NO EFFECT UPON HIM -- HE IS FALLEN FROM GRACE.3. Because the hope of righteousness is by faith. v 5-6The Outline Study BiblePatrick Henry's words are the words of a Christian also. Laura, You are welcome to that opinion, but the Bible says the 7th day; Sabbath; Saturday. Period. If changing God’s commandment to whatever day you prefer doesn’t bother you, that’s up to you, and your business. But don’t say it doesn’t matter to me. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
"Give me liberty or give me death". So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts. I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed. And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved. My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes. (PSA 119:44-48) Glenn - OLD TESTAMENT NOT LONG APPLICABLE TODAY. I am verily a man [which am] a Jew, born in Tarsus, [a city] in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, [and] taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. (ACTS 22:3) Glennb - Right brought up in the law, and now he is free in Christ. TRIED TO KILL CHRIST when sincerely living by the law. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. (JAMES 1:25) Glenn - Law of Liberty is not living by the Old Testament. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? Now wait a minute. You, dear sweet Lzzy, have not refuted Acts 20:7. You have pretty much ignored it. If you want be like the Mormons and say Acts 20:7 is an error/mistake in the Bible, that is your business. But don't say it doesn't matter to me. :-) Am I being nice enough in the face of such erroneous doctrine? :-) It is sad that Christians put themselves back into bondage. It was the American patriot Patrick Henry who said, "Give me liberty or give me death". He knew what it was like to live under the thumb of a tyrant. Along the way, he had the good fortune to get a small taste of liberty. IN THE SAME SENSE, THE LAW SERVES AS A TYRANT. It shows no mercy and hates anything related to freedom. Anyone who weds himself to the law will be entangled in the chains of bondage. WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE for the Christian believer? LIBERTY IN CHRIST. Why? 1. Because Christ has freed the believer v1 2. Because the law is not God's way for a man to be justified. v 2-4 IF A PERSON SEEKS TO BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW, CHRIST CAN HAVE NO EFFECT UPON HIM -- HE IS FALLEN FROM GRACE. 3. Because the hope of righteousness is by faith. v 5-6 The Outline Study Bible Patrick Henry's words are the words of a Christian also. Laura, You are welcome to that opinion, but the Bible says the 7th day; Sabbath; Saturday. Period. If changing God’s commandment to whatever day you prefer doesn’t bother you, that’s up to you, and your business. But don’t say it doesn’t matter to me. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
No, the God of the Old Testament is the same of the God of the New Testament. However, the God of the Old Testament decided to fulfill the law and send Jesus to make the final sacrifice for our sins. God's character does not change. But God's Old Testament laws are fulfilled.
Do you think the God of the New Testament is wrong?
Do you think that God of the Old Testament is wrong?
Could you worship a God like that?
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Read these commentaires if you like. I put "if you like" trying to be nice. :-) That's for engaging in intellignent conservation.
To me this is a no brainer. If I must observe the Sabbath I must kill my children for cursing. I either observe all of the law or none of the law. I can't pick an choose which parts of the law I want to obey. Not to mention death is also the law's penality for homosexuality.
Book of Acts
Chapter 20 - Read Chapter - Click for Chapter Audio
Study Resource List
BCC - Commentary on 20:7
DSN - Synopsis on 20:7
GEB - Study Notes on 20:7
GSB - Study Notes on 20:7
JFB - Commentary on 20:7
MHC-COM - Commentary on 20:7
MHC-CON - Commentary on 20:7
OCA - Commentary on 20:7
PNT - Commentary on 20:7
RWP - Study Notes on 20:7
SRN - Study Notes on 20:7
TSK - Commentary on 20:7 TSK - Entry for 20:7
WEN - Notes on 20:7
NTB - Bread; Eucharist (The Lord'S Supper); Worship; Zeal, Religious
TTT - Communion of the Lord's Supper; Sabbath, The
EBD - Luke; Sabbath
SBD - Lords Supper
20:7 - [In Context|Original Greek]On the R1163 first day of the week, when we R1164 were gathered together to break R1165 bread, Paul {began} talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message F449 until midnight.
The annual Sabbath, Pentecost, is so important to God that He reserved it for pouring out His Holy Spirit in Acts 2. This was the first week in the count down.
