Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

BTW, I don't make assumptions on extensions only. I check their hosting
machines and modules also. In my emails, I said some sites have NO
Evidence running Java.

When I see most Microsoft sites .aspx, I am pretty sure they are .net
sites, not JSF sites.

When I  see Sun's site, does .jsp means they run on IIS with .net
technologies.

There are always exceptions, but I like "what you see is what it is" in
99%.

John H. Xu

---

PS.

Dave ask why I think only very dynamic pages should use .php, .jsp or
.asp. I think this is my preference. The reason was that I like stable
page as .html so search engine knows that. If I use a page that
frequently changing as .html/shtml and search engine cache it. Later if
someone seached this page and people cannot find the contents they need. 

  - Original Message -
  From: "John Henry Xu"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:55:06 -0500

  >
  > Ideally, no "? & = + -" symbols should be in URL at all. Many
  people
  > complained about these "user unfriendly" URLs.
  >
  > However, it is rare that people wants get rid of all extensions. In
  fact
  > I only heard about this claim the second time today.
  >
  > There are some strange-behavior-people like to use php for .net
  pages,
  > .aspx for java pages, .jsp for PHP pages. These are all
  > technically possible and easy to do, especially with php or perl.
  >
  > But for normal people and hosting companies, I don't think they
  want mix
  > these things up.
  >
  > I believe when I see .php in a site, I know it is a php site with
  99%
  > conidence. I have faith in normal people.
  >
  > John H. Xu
  >
  > http://www.usanalyst.com
  >
  > http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
  America)
  >
  > - Original Message -
  > From: "Jeff Beal"
  > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  > Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:22:32 -0400
  >
  > >
  > > I think you're missing the point. There's no reason to include
  > .php,
  > > .asp, .jsp, .xml, or .html in *any* page. They don't mean
  anything.
  > > Furthermore, any assumptions you make about the technology behind
  a
  > > site based on those extensions is simply not valid. (OT: I'll
  never
  > > forget the day my 7th grade math teacher announced to our class
  > that
  > > to ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME. It's amazing how
  frequently
  > > the truth of that statement has bitten me.)
  > >
  > > -- Jeff
  > >
  > > On 7/29/05, John Henry Xu wrote:
  > > > Nice article. that explains why google save sites the way it
  is.
  > > >
  > > > So all pages that will not be changed should have no .php,
  .asp,
  > at most
  > > > .html/.shtml. Only dynamically changing pages should use .php,
  > .asp or
  > > > .jsp.
  > > >
  > > > John H. Xu
  > > >
  > >
  > >
  >
  -
  > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > Jack H. Xu
  > Technology columnist and editor
  >
  > http://www.usanalyst.com
  >
  > http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
  America)
  >
  > --
  > ___
  > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
  > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Dave Newton]

John Henry Xu wrote:


However, it is rare that people wants get rid of all extensions. In fact
I only heard about this claim the second time today.
 


"Rare" doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.


There are some strange-behavior-people like to use php for .net pages,
.aspx for java pages, .jsp for PHP pages. These are all
technically possible and easy to do, especially with php or perl.
 

I don't see how adding a servlet mapping to a web.xml is especially 
difficult.



I have faith in normal people.
 


Weird-those are the people I have the _least_ amount of faith in.

Dave



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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

Ideally, no "? & = + -" symbols should be in URL at all. Many people
complained about these "user unfriendly" URLs.

However, it is rare that people wants get rid of all extensions. In fact
I only heard about this claim the second time today.

There are some strange-behavior-people like to use php for .net pages,
.aspx for java pages, .jsp for PHP pages. These are all
technically possible and easy to do, especially with php or perl.

But for normal people and hosting companies, I don't think they want mix
these things up.

I believe when I see .php in a site, I know it is a php site with 99% 
conidence. I have faith in normal people.

John H. Xu

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America) 

  - Original Message -
  From: "Jeff Beal"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:22:32 -0400

  >
  > I think you're missing the point. There's no reason to include
  .php,
  > .asp, .jsp, .xml, or .html in *any* page. They don't mean anything.
  > Furthermore, any assumptions you make about the technology behind a
  > site based on those extensions is simply not valid. (OT: I'll never
  > forget the day my 7th grade math teacher announced to our class
  that
  > to ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME. It's amazing how frequently
  > the truth of that statement has bitten me.)
  >
  > -- Jeff
  >
  > On 7/29/05, John Henry Xu wrote:
  > > Nice article. that explains why google save sites the way it is.
  > >
  > > So all pages that will not be changed should have no .php, .asp,
  at most
  > > .html/.shtml. Only dynamically changing pages should use .php,
  .asp or
  > > .jsp.
  > >
  > > John H. Xu
  > >
  >
  >
  -
  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Frank W. Zammetti]

I thought I remembered that Tiles only worked when using extension 
matching rather than prefix matching... but I was thinking of modules, 
which does require extension matching as per the user guide.  My bad, 
flaky Friday memory :)


Frank

Dave Newton wrote:

Frank W. Zammetti wrote:


Jeff, are you saying we shouldn't use extensions at all?

IIRC, Tiles is extension-based, so wouldn't this mean, at the least, 
that we can't use Tiles?



What do you mean by 'tiles is extension-based?'

Also, we're talking about extensions on the client view of the 
URL--nobody sees any extensions on most sites I've done. Well, lately, 
anyway.


I've never much liked extensions; I think they're just confusing and 
don't add to the user's experience.


Dave



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.



--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com


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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Dakota Jack]

er the last couple years.  I'm by no
> >>>> means an expert, but I do know my way around somewhat.  The
> >>>> whole time
> >>>> I've caught myself thinking if I was in Java I'd have a better
> >>>> way to do
> >>>> just about everything.  But most of the "better way" is because
> >>>> of the
> >>>> J2EE APIs, Struts, and Tiles.  The language is a bit more
> >>>> cumbersome
> >>>> than Java and it's much more difficult to modularize.  I find
> >>>> PHP is
> >>>> easier (to me) if I don't try to make things elegant, but just
> >>>> "spew
> >>>> code" to some extent.  I finally found a CMS to use as a Struts-
> >>>> like
> >>>> framework, but I still find Java/Struts and now JSF to be better,
> >>>> cleaner, and more modular.  I am now trying to figure out a way
> >>>> to do my
> >>>> future "on-the-side" consulting in Java instead of PHP.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think another of PHPs success factors has to do with its
> >>>> acceptance
> >>>> from the open source community.  Somehow Java has had a somewhat
> >>>> tainted
> >>>> reputation due to the lack of a truly open complete
> >>>> implementation --
> >>>> and probably some are just bitter that Sun hasn't opened the
> >>>> whole thing
> >>>> up.  I don't personally have anything to contribute to that
> >>>> debate, but
> >>>> I suspect it's a factor in why PHP has been so widely embraced
> >>>> on the
> >>>> web compared to Java.
> >>>>
> >>>> So all in all, it doesn't much matter to me if JSF supercedes
> >>>> Struts.
> >>>> If it's better, then it should.  If we get behind Shale it think
> >>>> we can
> >>>> have our cake and eat it too.
> >>>>
> >>>> BTW, for JSF info, try MyFaces.  Their Getting Started section
> >>>> points to
> >>>> some pretty good tutorials.  In short testing I've found the
> >>>> myfaces
> >>>> implementation to be pretty stable.  I'm actually surprised
> >>>> Craig is not
> >>>> listed as a contributor to that project.
> >>>>
> >>>> That's my 50 cents.
> >>>> Greg
> >>>>
> >>>> Daniel Perry wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Sorry for the OT postings.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My point was that you cant compare usage of PHP with Struts.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The number of Struts sites (or even java sites) will never
> >>>>> overtake the
> >>>>> number of PHP sites for the reasons i pointed out (although...
> >>>>> zend are
> >>>>> doing their best to kill off php by trying to move it into the
> >>>>>
> >> enterprise
> >>
> >>>>> arena and tying it with java).  But for those same reasons,
> >>>>> comparing
> >>>>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>>>> two is useless.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for JSF... It seems like a nice idea, but i havnt fully got
> >>>>> my head
> >>>>>
> >> round
> >>
> >>>>> it.  I cant see it killing off struts in the short term (just
> >>>>> look at
> >>>>>
> >> daily
> >>
> >>>>> rate of postings on this list!!!) I do like the idea of
> >>>>> replacing struts
> >>>>> html tags with JSF.  I certainly think JSTL/EL are nicer than
> >>>>> the logic
> >>>>> tags.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I now have a dilema... I'm just about to start on another
> >>>>> project.  What
> >>>>> technologies do i use?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I guess i'll probably stick with struts.  Though i may dabble
> >>>>> with JSF a
> >>>>> bit.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Can anyone recommend any good resources? Sure a google search
> >>>>> provides
> >>>>>
> >> tons
&g

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Dakota Jack]

#x27;ve caught myself thinking if I was in Java I'd have a better
> >>>> way to do
> >>>> just about everything.  But most of the "better way" is because
> >>>> of the
> >>>> J2EE APIs, Struts, and Tiles.  The language is a bit more
> >>>> cumbersome
> >>>> than Java and it's much more difficult to modularize.  I find
> >>>> PHP is
> >>>> easier (to me) if I don't try to make things elegant, but just
> >>>> "spew
> >>>> code" to some extent.  I finally found a CMS to use as a Struts-
> >>>> like
> >>>> framework, but I still find Java/Struts and now JSF to be better,
> >>>> cleaner, and more modular.  I am now trying to figure out a way
> >>>> to do my
> >>>> future "on-the-side" consulting in Java instead of PHP.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think another of PHPs success factors has to do with its
> >>>> acceptance
> >>>> from the open source community.  Somehow Java has had a somewhat
> >>>> tainted
> >>>> reputation due to the lack of a truly open complete
> >>>> implementation --
> >>>> and probably some are just bitter that Sun hasn't opened the
> >>>> whole thing
> >>>> up.  I don't personally have anything to contribute to that
> >>>> debate, but
> >>>> I suspect it's a factor in why PHP has been so widely embraced
> >>>> on the
> >>>> web compared to Java.
> >>>>
> >>>> So all in all, it doesn't much matter to me if JSF supercedes
> >>>> Struts.
> >>>> If it's better, then it should.  If we get behind Shale it think
> >>>> we can
> >>>> have our cake and eat it too.
> >>>>
> >>>> BTW, for JSF info, try MyFaces.  Their Getting Started section
> >>>> points to
> >>>> some pretty good tutorials.  In short testing I've found the
> >>>> myfaces
> >>>> implementation to be pretty stable.  I'm actually surprised
> >>>> Craig is not
> >>>> listed as a contributor to that project.
> >>>>
> >>>> That's my 50 cents.
> >>>> Greg
> >>>>
> >>>> Daniel Perry wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Sorry for the OT postings.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My point was that you cant compare usage of PHP with Struts.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The number of Struts sites (or even java sites) will never
> >>>>> overtake the
> >>>>> number of PHP sites for the reasons i pointed out (although...
> >>>>> zend are
> >>>>> doing their best to kill off php by trying to move it into the
> >>>>>
> >> enterprise
> >>
> >>>>> arena and tying it with java).  But for those same reasons,
> >>>>> comparing
> >>>>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>>>> two is useless.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for JSF... It seems like a nice idea, but i havnt fully got
> >>>>> my head
> >>>>>
> >> round
> >>
> >>>>> it.  I cant see it killing off struts in the short term (just
> >>>>> look at
> >>>>>
> >> daily
> >>
> >>>>> rate of postings on this list!!!) I do like the idea of
> >>>>> replacing struts
> >>>>> html tags with JSF.  I certainly think JSTL/EL are nicer than
> >>>>> the logic
> >>>>> tags.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I now have a dilema... I'm just about to start on another
> >>>>> project.  What
> >>>>> technologies do i use?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I guess i'll probably stick with struts.  Though i may dabble
> >>>>> with JSF a
> >>>>> bit.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Can anyone recommend any good resources? Sure a google search
> >>>>> provides
> >>>>>
> >> tons
> >>
> >>>>> of information... but which is any good?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Daniel.
> >>&

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Dave Newton]

Frank W. Zammetti wrote:


Jeff, are you saying we shouldn't use extensions at all?

IIRC, Tiles is extension-based, so wouldn't this mean, at the least, 
that we can't use Tiles?


What do you mean by 'tiles is extension-based?'

Also, we're talking about extensions on the client view of the 
URL--nobody sees any extensions on most sites I've done. Well, lately, 
anyway.


I've never much liked extensions; I think they're just confusing and 
don't add to the user's experience.


Dave



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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Frank W. Zammetti]

Jeff, are you saying we shouldn't use extensions at all?

IIRC, Tiles is extension-based, so wouldn't this mean, at the least, 
that we can't use Tiles?


Frank

Jeff Beal wrote:

I think you're missing the point.  There's no reason to include .php,
.asp, .jsp, .xml, or .html in *any* page.  They don't mean anything. 
Furthermore, any assumptions you make about the technology behind a

site based on those extensions is simply not valid.  (OT: I'll never
forget the day my 7th grade math teacher announced to our class that
to ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME.  It's amazing how frequently
the truth of that statement has bitten me.)

-- Jeff

On 7/29/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Nice article. that explains why google save sites the way it is.

So all pages that will not be changed should have no .php, .asp, at most
.html/.shtml. Only dynamically changing pages should use .php, .asp or
.jsp.

John H. Xu




-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]







--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com


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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Jeff Beal]

I think you're missing the point.  There's no reason to include .php,
.asp, .jsp, .xml, or .html in *any* page.  They don't mean anything. 
Furthermore, any assumptions you make about the technology behind a
site based on those extensions is simply not valid.  (OT: I'll never
forget the day my 7th grade math teacher announced to our class that
to ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME.  It's amazing how frequently
the truth of that statement has bitten me.)

-- Jeff

On 7/29/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nice article. that explains why google save sites the way it is.
> 
> So all pages that will not be changed should have no .php, .asp, at most
> .html/.shtml. Only dynamically changing pages should use .php, .asp or
> .jsp.
> 
> John H. Xu
>

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Dave Newton]

John Henry Xu wrote:


Only dynamically changing pages should use .php, .asp or .jsp.
 


Why?

Dave



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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

Nice article. that explains why google save sites the way it is.

So all pages that will not be changed should have no .php, .asp, at most
.html/.shtml. Only dynamically changing pages should use .php, .asp or
.jsp.

John H. Xu

http://www.usanalyst.com
http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

  - Original Message -
  From: "Jeff Beal"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:23:55 -0400

  >
  > In Tim Berners-Lee's defense, the URI without '.html' works. The
  link
  > from Google included the '.html', and I didn't notice it when I
  pasted
  > into the email. It's Google's fault!
  >
  > http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI
  >
  > -- Jeff
  >
  > On 7/29/05, Marsh-Bourdon, Christopher
  > wrote:
  > > It is vaguely amusing that the page's url dos not adhere to the
  page's
  > > content!
  > >
  > > Not sure how practical it would be to use url that do not contain
  an (file)
  > > extension with Struts or most web app frameworks. Aren't they
  there to give
  > > guidance to their content (Hacker subterfuge excluded)?
  > >
  > > It shouldn't detract from the idea of page "longevity", which
  would make a
  > > for a better web.
  > >
  > > Christopher Marsh-Bourdon
  > > www.marsh-bourdon.com
  > >
  > >
  > > -Original Message-
  > > From: Jeff Beal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > > Sent: 29 July 2005 13:55
  > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
  > > Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > >
  > > Imagine a company currently using PHP who decides their app has
  grown past
  > > the constraints of PHP. It would be silly of them to change the
  file
  > > extension on their URIs just because they're changing technology,
  so they
  > > just map *.php to the Struts Servlet.
  > >
  > > Of course, if the web developers at that company were really
  smart, they'd
  > > have been following the guidelines described in
  > > http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html and wouldn't have such
  a problem.
  > > Few people do this, though.
  > >
  > > -- Jeff
  > >
  > > On 7/28/05, John Henry Xu wrote:
  > > > I mapped to .html but not .asp, and I doubt many people would
  map java
  > > > apps to .php, .asp or .aspx in hosting companies (Of course u
  can
  > > > technically but I can not see the benefit). That's why I assume
  if I
  > > > see .php, I know it is php site with 99% confidence.
  > > >
  > > > The reason for our mapping to html was that this page is rather
  stable
  > > > and I don't change their contents over time (in general). And
  for
  > > > security reason as Stéphane said. For PHP and perl it is very
  simple
  > > > to do that. For java it is a little more difficult but
  manageable. It
  > > > can give you more URL addresses as Neil said.
  > > >
  > > > As for jsf, is it .jspx? or maybe mapping to others? It is
  possible
  > > > jsf maps to html. jsf using .aspx? It is unthinkable even
  technically
  > > > possible.
  > > >
  > > > John H. Xu
  > > >
  > > > - Original Message -
  > > > From: "Neil Erdwien"
  > > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  > > > Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > > > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:01:29 -0500
  > > >
  > > > >
  > > > > I presume preserving URLs is the reason to map one
  technology's
  > > > > default extention to another. For example, if you have a
  static
  > > > > web site with files than end in .html, and switch to
  Java/Struts,
  > > > > then you can map *.html to the Struts' action servlet.
  > > > >
  > > > > The end users' bookmarks don't have to change, but you're
  really
  > > > > running a Struts action under the covers.
  > > > >
  > > > >
  > > > > Stéphane Zuckerman wrote:
  > > > > > John Henry Xu a écrit :
  > > > > >
  > > > > >>>> Actually, my favorite sites are the
  > > > > >>>
  > > > > >>>
  > > > > >>> ones that map "*.asp" to the Struts servlet. Gotta love
  people
  > > > that
  > > > > >>> bend minds like that!
  > > > > >>
  > >

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[James Mitchell]

o that project.

That's my 50 cents.
Greg

Daniel Perry wrote:




Sorry for the OT postings.

My point was that you cant compare usage of PHP with Struts.

The number of Struts sites (or even java sites) will never  
overtake the
number of PHP sites for the reasons i pointed out (although...  
zend are

doing their best to kill off php by trying to move it into the


enterprise

arena and tying it with java).  But for those same reasons,  
comparing



the


two is useless.

As for JSF... It seems like a nice idea, but i havnt fully got  
my head



round

it.  I cant see it killing off struts in the short term (just  
look at



daily

rate of postings on this list!!!) I do like the idea of  
replacing struts
html tags with JSF.  I certainly think JSTL/EL are nicer than  
the logic

tags.

I now have a dilema... I'm just about to start on another  
project.  What

technologies do i use?

I guess i'll probably stick with struts.  Though i may dabble  
with JSF a

bit.

Can anyone recommend any good resources? Sure a google search  
provides



tons


of information... but which is any good?

Daniel.






-Original Message-
From: Mark Benussi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 10:38
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!


No offence but this is a daft conversation that I have seen too
many times.
Say Struts is dead to a certain Blue vendor who has just  
releases their
latest Portal server which is built on Struts and they may  
smile wryly.


The number of sites out there running Struts is huge and the  
number of

products that rely on it as also fairly big. Anyone in the
telecoms industry
will know how even the latest version of Broadvision uses Struts.

I have attended some JSF talks, and the technology seems  
powerful but I



am

not sold. I came to server side programming from DHTML and  
like the way

struts still lets you work at that end with large freedom but
also a lot of
powerful taglibs.

If Struts 'dies' I will take it on personally and do whatever it
needs that
it seems to be lacking.

I have never done any PHP so I can't comment, but agree with the


previous

comments in so far as Struts/Java/Servlets is for large  
applications. I
would not build a suite of actions and database pooling for my  
old mans

plane photos web site.

As for this server requirements, yes Java (Tomcat whatever  
else) needs
server resources, but once its loaded it flies as its  
threaded. Am I



right


in thinking PHP is not threaded i.e. holding F5 on a PHP page can
cause some
processing issues? Anyway no offence but I don't want to know the


answer.

This is a Struts list and I accept JSF is vaguely relevant but  
I am not

going to utter another sentence about PHP.

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Perry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 09:46
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really.  Scripted web  
page.



Main

difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt  
require



any

declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able  
programmers.


But the big difference is server requirements.  JSP uses a lot  
more



server

resources.  PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass  
virtual



hosting


servers.  JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant.

Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick  
up php in



a

couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g. Struts+Java+JSP 
+Servlet etc.


This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i
normally pass it
on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger


sites/apps


that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers.

Daniel.






-Original Message-
From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!


JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in
real applications.

EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of
configuration (at least before mature tools were developed) kept
many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI  
examples).


Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed for
always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases,
following sun too closely is not wise.

PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application.

John H. Xu


http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North


America)





- Original Message -
From: netsql
To: user@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:13:05 -0500




John Public wrote:


After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
becoming OBSOLETE.



:-) Enh

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Dakota Jack]

gt;
> >>That's my 50 cents.
> >>Greg
> >>
> >>Daniel Perry wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Sorry for the OT postings.
> >>>
> >>>My point was that you cant compare usage of PHP with Struts.
> >>>
> >>>The number of Struts sites (or even java sites) will never overtake the
> >>>number of PHP sites for the reasons i pointed out (although... zend are
> >>>doing their best to kill off php by trying to move it into the
> enterprise
> >>>arena and tying it with java).  But for those same reasons, comparing
> the
> >>>two is useless.
> >>>
> >>>As for JSF... It seems like a nice idea, but i havnt fully got my head
> round
> >>>it.  I cant see it killing off struts in the short term (just look at
> daily
> >>>rate of postings on this list!!!) I do like the idea of replacing struts
> >>>html tags with JSF.  I certainly think JSTL/EL are nicer than the logic
> >>>tags.
> >>>
> >>>I now have a dilema... I'm just about to start on another project.  What
> >>>technologies do i use?
> >>>
> >>>I guess i'll probably stick with struts.  Though i may dabble with JSF a
> >>>bit.
> >>>
> >>>Can anyone recommend any good resources? Sure a google search provides
> tons
> >>>of information... but which is any good?
> >>>
> >>>Daniel.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>
> >>>>-Original Message-
> >>>>From: Mark Benussi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>Sent: 26 July 2005 10:38
> >>>>To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> >>>>Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>No offence but this is a daft conversation that I have seen too
> >>>>many times.
> >>>>Say Struts is dead to a certain Blue vendor who has just releases their
> >>>>latest Portal server which is built on Struts and they may smile wryly.
> >>>>
> >>>>The number of sites out there running Struts is huge and the number of
> >>>>products that rely on it as also fairly big. Anyone in the
> >>>>telecoms industry
> >>>>will know how even the latest version of Broadvision uses Struts.
> >>>>
> >>>>I have attended some JSF talks, and the technology seems powerful but I
> am
> >>>>not sold. I came to server side programming from DHTML and like the way
> >>>>struts still lets you work at that end with large freedom but
> >>>>also a lot of
> >>>>powerful taglibs.
> >>>>
> >>>>If Struts 'dies' I will take it on personally and do whatever it
> >>>>needs that
> >>>>it seems to be lacking.
> >>>>
> >>>>I have never done any PHP so I can't comment, but agree with the
> previous
> >>>>comments in so far as Struts/Java/Servlets is for large applications. I
> >>>>would not build a suite of actions and database pooling for my old mans
> >>>>plane photos web site.
> >>>>
> >>>>As for this server requirements, yes Java (Tomcat whatever else) needs
> >>>>server resources, but once its loaded it flies as its threaded. Am I
> right
> >>>>in thinking PHP is not threaded i.e. holding F5 on a PHP page can
> >>>>cause some
> >>>>processing issues? Anyway no offence but I don't want to know the
> answer.
> >>>>This is a Struts list and I accept JSF is vaguely relevant but I am not
> >>>>going to utter another sentence about PHP.
> >>>>
> >>>>-Original Message-
> >>>>From: Daniel Perry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>Sent: 26 July 2005 09:46
> >>>>To: Struts Users Mailing List
> >>>>Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
> >>>>
> >>>>PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really.  Scripted web page. 
> Main
> >>>>difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt require
> any
> >>>>declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able programmers.
> >>>>
> >>>>But the big difference is server requirements.  JSP uses a lot more
> server
> >>>>resources.  PHP can be made 

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Jeff Beal]

In Tim Berners-Lee's defense, the URI without '.html' works.  The link
from Google included the '.html', and I didn't notice it when I pasted
into the email.  It's Google's fault!

http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI

-- Jeff

On 7/29/05, Marsh-Bourdon, Christopher
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It is vaguely amusing that the page's url dos not adhere to the page's
> content!
> 
> Not sure how practical it would be to use url that do not contain an (file)
> extension with Struts or most web app frameworks.  Aren't they there to give
> guidance to their content (Hacker subterfuge excluded)?
> 
> It shouldn't detract from the idea of page "longevity", which would make a
> for a better web.
> 
> Christopher Marsh-Bourdon
> www.marsh-bourdon.com
> 
> 
> -Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Beal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 29 July 2005 13:55
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
> 
> Imagine a company currently using PHP who decides their app has grown past
> the constraints of PHP.  It would be silly of them to change the file
> extension on their URIs just because they're changing technology, so they
> just map *.php to the Struts Servlet.
> 
> Of course, if the web developers at that company were really smart, they'd
> have been following the guidelines described in
> http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html and wouldn't have such a problem.
> Few people do this, though.
> 
> -- Jeff
> 
> On 7/28/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I mapped to .html but not .asp, and I doubt many people would map java
> > apps to .php, .asp or .aspx in hosting companies (Of course u can
> > technically but I can not see the benefit). That's why I assume if I
> > see .php, I know it is php site with 99% confidence.
> >
> > The reason for our mapping to html was that this page is rather stable
> > and I don't change their contents over time (in general). And for
> > security reason as Stéphane said. For PHP and perl it is very simple
> > to do that. For java it is a little more difficult but manageable. It
> > can give you more URL addresses as Neil said.
> >
> > As for jsf, is it .jspx? or maybe mapping to others? It is possible
> > jsf maps to html. jsf using .aspx? It is unthinkable even technically
> > possible.
> >
> > John H. Xu
> >
> >   - Original Message -
> >   From: "Neil Erdwien"
> >   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
> >   Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
> >   Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:01:29 -0500
> >
> >   >
> >   > I presume preserving URLs is the reason to map one technology's
> >   > default extention to another. For example, if you have a static
> >   > web site with files than end in .html, and switch to Java/Struts,
> >   > then you can map *.html to the Struts' action servlet.
> >   >
> >   > The end users' bookmarks don't have to change, but you're really
> >   > running a Struts action under the covers.
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > Stéphane Zuckerman wrote:
> >   > > John Henry Xu a écrit :
> >   > >
> >   > >>>> Actually, my favorite sites are the
> >   > >>>
> >   > >>>
> >   > >>> ones that map "*.asp" to the Struts servlet. Gotta love people
> >   that
> >   > >>> bend minds like that!
> >   > >>
> >   > >>
> >   > >>
> >   > >>
> >   > >> I cannot imagine what motivates people tried to map there
> >   servlets to
> >   > >> .asp. Even I could easily map my site to .aspx, I would not do
> >   that.
> >   > >> Although I respect MS, I am not really a huge fun of Microsoft.
> >   If I
> >   > >> implement sites with Java, I want java take credits. If I
> >   implement sites
> >   > >> in PHP, I want PHP take credits, I would not map that to .asp.
> >   If I use
> >   > >> .net, I don't map it to jsp also. If I saw a site ends with .php
> >   or
> >   > >> .aspx, I assume that was a php and .net site, and I belieave I
> >   am right
> >   > >> on that with 99% confidence.
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > > I guess this is against wannabe crackers. Yes, yes, I know,
> >   security
> >   > > through obscurity, bla

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Frank W. Zammetti]

I have always choosen an extension that was meaningful for the
application... for instance, for a system I did called Transfer Of Assets,
it was .toa... for the blog on my own page it is .blog.  I never really
thought about it in terms of URLs not changing or being able to know what
technology was in use, it just made sense to me.

-- 
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com

On Fri, July 29, 2005 8:55 am, Jeff Beal said:
> Imagine a company currently using PHP who decides their app has grown
> past the constraints of PHP.  It would be silly of them to change the
> file extension on their URIs just because they're changing technology,
> so they just map *.php to the Struts Servlet.
>
> Of course, if the web developers at that company were really smart,
> they'd have been following the guidelines described in
> http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html and wouldn't have such a
> problem.  Few people do this, though.
>
> -- Jeff
>
> On 7/28/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I mapped to .html but not .asp, and I doubt many people would map java
>> apps to .php, .asp or .aspx in hosting companies (Of course u can
>> technically but I can not see the benefit). That's why I assume if I see
>> .php, I know it is php site with 99% confidence.
>>
>> The reason for our mapping to html was that this page is rather stable
>> and I don't change their contents over time (in general). And for
>> security reason as Stéphane said. For PHP and perl it is very simple to
>> do that. For java it is a little more difficult but manageable. It can
>> give you more URL addresses as Neil said.
>>
>> As for jsf, is it .jspx? or maybe mapping to others? It is possible jsf
>> maps to html. jsf using .aspx? It is unthinkable even technically
>> possible.
>>
>> John H. Xu
>>
>>   - Original Message -
>>   From: "Neil Erdwien"
>>   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>>   Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>>   Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:01:29 -0500
>>
>>   >
>>   > I presume preserving URLs is the reason to map one technology's
>>   > default extention to another. For example, if you have a static
>>   > web site with files than end in .html, and switch to Java/Struts,
>>   > then you can map *.html to the Struts' action servlet.
>>   >
>>   > The end users' bookmarks don't have to change, but you're really
>>   > running a Struts action under the covers.
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > Stéphane Zuckerman wrote:
>>   > > John Henry Xu a écrit :
>>   > >
>>   > >>>> Actually, my favorite sites are the
>>   > >>>
>>   > >>>
>>   > >>> ones that map "*.asp" to the Struts servlet. Gotta love people
>>   that
>>   > >>> bend minds like that!
>>   > >>
>>   > >>
>>   > >>
>>   > >>
>>   > >> I cannot imagine what motivates people tried to map there
>>   servlets to
>>   > >> .asp. Even I could easily map my site to .aspx, I would not do
>>   that.
>>   > >> Although I respect MS, I am not really a huge fun of Microsoft.
>>   If I
>>   > >> implement sites with Java, I want java take credits. If I
>>   implement sites
>>   > >> in PHP, I want PHP take credits, I would not map that to .asp.
>>   If I use
>>   > >> .net, I don't map it to jsp also. If I saw a site ends with .php
>>   or
>>   > >> .aspx, I assume that was a php and .net site, and I belieave I
>>   am right
>>   > >> on that with 99% confidence.
>>   > >
>>   > >
>>   > > I guess this is against wannabe crackers. Yes, yes, I know,
>>   security
>>   > > through obscurity, blah blah blah... Well, once you've done
>>   everything
>>   > > that isn't obfuscation-related, there is only obscurity that
>>   remains,
>>   > > and frankly, it does help gain a few {minutes,hours} before the
>>   nasty
>>   > > black hats break the server. :-)
>>   > >
>>   >
>>   > -- Neil Erdwien, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web Technologies Manager
>>   > Computing and Network Services, Kansas State University
>>   >
>>   >
>>   -
>>   > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>   > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John H. Xu
>>
>>
>> http://www.usanalyst.com
>>
>> http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
>>
>> --
>> ___
>> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
>> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
>>
>>
>>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>


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RE: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Marsh-Bourdon, Christopher]

It is vaguely amusing that the page's url dos not adhere to the page's
content!  

Not sure how practical it would be to use url that do not contain an (file)
extension with Struts or most web app frameworks.  Aren't they there to give
guidance to their content (Hacker subterfuge excluded)?

It shouldn't detract from the idea of page "longevity", which would make a
for a better web.

Christopher Marsh-Bourdon
www.marsh-bourdon.com


-Original Message-
From: Jeff Beal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 29 July 2005 13:55
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

Imagine a company currently using PHP who decides their app has grown past
the constraints of PHP.  It would be silly of them to change the file
extension on their URIs just because they're changing technology, so they
just map *.php to the Struts Servlet.

Of course, if the web developers at that company were really smart, they'd
have been following the guidelines described in
http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html and wouldn't have such a problem.
Few people do this, though.

-- Jeff

On 7/28/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I mapped to .html but not .asp, and I doubt many people would map java 
> apps to .php, .asp or .aspx in hosting companies (Of course u can 
> technically but I can not see the benefit). That's why I assume if I 
> see .php, I know it is php site with 99% confidence.
> 
> The reason for our mapping to html was that this page is rather stable 
> and I don't change their contents over time (in general). And for 
> security reason as Stéphane said. For PHP and perl it is very simple 
> to do that. For java it is a little more difficult but manageable. It 
> can give you more URL addresses as Neil said.
> 
> As for jsf, is it .jspx? or maybe mapping to others? It is possible 
> jsf maps to html. jsf using .aspx? It is unthinkable even technically 
> possible.
> 
> John H. Xu
> 
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "Neil Erdwien"
>   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>   Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:01:29 -0500
> 
>   >
>   > I presume preserving URLs is the reason to map one technology's
>   > default extention to another. For example, if you have a static
>   > web site with files than end in .html, and switch to Java/Struts,
>   > then you can map *.html to the Struts' action servlet.
>   >
>   > The end users' bookmarks don't have to change, but you're really
>   > running a Struts action under the covers.
>   >
>   >
>   > Stéphane Zuckerman wrote:
>   > > John Henry Xu a écrit :
>   > >
>   > >>>> Actually, my favorite sites are the
>   > >>>
>   > >>>
>   > >>> ones that map "*.asp" to the Struts servlet. Gotta love people
>   that
>   > >>> bend minds like that!
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >> I cannot imagine what motivates people tried to map there
>   servlets to
>   > >> .asp. Even I could easily map my site to .aspx, I would not do
>   that.
>   > >> Although I respect MS, I am not really a huge fun of Microsoft.
>   If I
>   > >> implement sites with Java, I want java take credits. If I
>   implement sites
>   > >> in PHP, I want PHP take credits, I would not map that to .asp.
>   If I use
>   > >> .net, I don't map it to jsp also. If I saw a site ends with .php
>   or
>   > >> .aspx, I assume that was a php and .net site, and I belieave I
>   am right
>   > >> on that with 99% confidence.
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > I guess this is against wannabe crackers. Yes, yes, I know,
>   security
>   > > through obscurity, blah blah blah... Well, once you've done
>   everything
>   > > that isn't obfuscation-related, there is only obscurity that
>   remains,
>   > > and frankly, it does help gain a few {minutes,hours} before the
>   nasty
>   > > black hats break the server. :-)
>   > >
>   >
>   > -- Neil Erdwien, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web Technologies Manager
>   > Computing and Network Services, Kansas State University
>   >
>   >
>   -
>   > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John H. Xu
> 
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.GetusJobs.

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Jeff Beal]

Imagine a company currently using PHP who decides their app has grown
past the constraints of PHP.  It would be silly of them to change the
file extension on their URIs just because they're changing technology,
so they just map *.php to the Struts Servlet.

Of course, if the web developers at that company were really smart,
they'd have been following the guidelines described in
http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html and wouldn't have such a
problem.  Few people do this, though.

-- Jeff

On 7/28/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I mapped to .html but not .asp, and I doubt many people would map java
> apps to .php, .asp or .aspx in hosting companies (Of course u can
> technically but I can not see the benefit). That's why I assume if I see
> .php, I know it is php site with 99% confidence.
> 
> The reason for our mapping to html was that this page is rather stable
> and I don't change their contents over time (in general). And for
> security reason as Stéphane said. For PHP and perl it is very simple to
> do that. For java it is a little more difficult but manageable. It can
> give you more URL addresses as Neil said.
> 
> As for jsf, is it .jspx? or maybe mapping to others? It is possible jsf
> maps to html. jsf using .aspx? It is unthinkable even technically
> possible.
> 
> John H. Xu
> 
>   - Original Message -----
>   From: "Neil Erdwien"
>   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>   Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:01:29 -0500
> 
>   >
>   > I presume preserving URLs is the reason to map one technology's
>   > default extention to another. For example, if you have a static
>   > web site with files than end in .html, and switch to Java/Struts,
>   > then you can map *.html to the Struts' action servlet.
>   >
>   > The end users' bookmarks don't have to change, but you're really
>   > running a Struts action under the covers.
>   >
>   >
>   > Stéphane Zuckerman wrote:
>   > > John Henry Xu a écrit :
>   > >
>   > >>>> Actually, my favorite sites are the
>   > >>>
>   > >>>
>   > >>> ones that map "*.asp" to the Struts servlet. Gotta love people
>   that
>   > >>> bend minds like that!
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >> I cannot imagine what motivates people tried to map there
>   servlets to
>   > >> .asp. Even I could easily map my site to .aspx, I would not do
>   that.
>   > >> Although I respect MS, I am not really a huge fun of Microsoft.
>   If I
>   > >> implement sites with Java, I want java take credits. If I
>   implement sites
>   > >> in PHP, I want PHP take credits, I would not map that to .asp.
>   If I use
>   > >> .net, I don't map it to jsp also. If I saw a site ends with .php
>   or
>   > >> .aspx, I assume that was a php and .net site, and I belieave I
>   am right
>   > >> on that with 99% confidence.
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > I guess this is against wannabe crackers. Yes, yes, I know,
>   security
>   > > through obscurity, blah blah blah... Well, once you've done
>   everything
>   > > that isn't obfuscation-related, there is only obscurity that
>   remains,
>   > > and frankly, it does help gain a few {minutes,hours} before the
>   nasty
>   > > black hats break the server. :-)
>   > >
>   >
>   > -- Neil Erdwien, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web Technologies Manager
>   > Computing and Network Services, Kansas State University
>   >
>   >
>   -
>   > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John H. Xu
> 
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
> 
> --
> ___
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> 
> 
>

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Steve Raeburn]

 


-----Original Message-
From: Mark Benussi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 10:38
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!


No offence but this is a daft conversation that I have seen too
many times.
Say Struts is dead to a certain Blue vendor who has just releases their
latest Portal server which is built on Struts and they may smile wryly.

The number of sites out there running Struts is huge and the number of
products that rely on it as also fairly big. Anyone in the
telecoms industry
will know how even the latest version of Broadvision uses Struts.

I have attended some JSF talks, and the technology seems powerful but I am
not sold. I came to server side programming from DHTML and like the way
struts still lets you work at that end with large freedom but
also a lot of
powerful taglibs.

If Struts 'dies' I will take it on personally and do whatever it
needs that
it seems to be lacking.

I have never done any PHP so I can't comment, but agree with the previous
comments in so far as Struts/Java/Servlets is for large applications. I
would not build a suite of actions and database pooling for my old mans
plane photos web site.

As for this server requirements, yes Java (Tomcat whatever else) needs
server resources, but once its loaded it flies as its threaded. Am I right
in thinking PHP is not threaded i.e. holding F5 on a PHP page can
cause some
processing issues? Anyway no offence but I don't want to know the answer.
This is a Struts list and I accept JSF is vaguely relevant but I am not
going to utter another sentence about PHP.

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Perry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 09:46
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really.  Scripted web page.  Main
difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt require any
declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able programmers.

But the big difference is server requirements.  JSP uses a lot more server
resources.  PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass virtual hosting
servers.  JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant.

Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick up php in a
couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g. Struts+Java+JSP+Servlet etc.

This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i
normally pass it
on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger sites/apps
that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers.

Daniel.


   


-Original Message-
From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!


JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in
real applications.

EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of
configuration (at least before mature tools were developed) kept
many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI examples).

Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed for
always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases,
following sun too closely is not wise.

PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application.

John H. Xu


http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)



- Original Message -
From: netsql
To: user@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:13:05 -0500

>
> John Public wrote:
> > After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
> > confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
> > becoming OBSOLETE.
>
> :-) Enhydra and Torque would say that too circa 2001.
> Put up a site and lets see it.
>
> > Let's all get
> > behind JSF before MS takes over the web.
>
> Nothing wrong w/ C# IMO.
> I think PHP is "best(fast and cheap, lowest risk, most roi)" for
> "genric" server side rendering applications. (But then... I think
> the future is client side rendering )
> If JSF(or EJB) fails, it won't be becuase somone did not "get
behind it".
>
> Competition should give us best answer, and I am all for using
> better tech. Every few years I'd like a new tech please.
>
>
> -- .V
>
> People are conversing... without posting their email or filling up
their
> mail box.
> roomity.com
>
> No sign up to read or search this Rich Internet App.
>
>
>
-
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

I mapped to .html but not .asp, and I doubt many people would map java
apps to .php, .asp or .aspx in hosting companies (Of course u can
technically but I can not see the benefit). That's why I assume if I see
.php, I know it is php site with 99% confidence.

The reason for our mapping to html was that this page is rather stable
and I don't change their contents over time (in general). And for
security reason as Stéphane said. For PHP and perl it is very simple to
do that. For java it is a little more difficult but manageable. It can
give you more URL addresses as Neil said.

As for jsf, is it .jspx? or maybe mapping to others? It is possible jsf
maps to html. jsf using .aspx? It is unthinkable even technically
possible.

John H. Xu

  - Original Message -
  From: "Neil Erdwien"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:01:29 -0500

  >
  > I presume preserving URLs is the reason to map one technology's
  > default extention to another. For example, if you have a static
  > web site with files than end in .html, and switch to Java/Struts,
  > then you can map *.html to the Struts' action servlet.
  >
  > The end users' bookmarks don't have to change, but you're really
  > running a Struts action under the covers.
  >
  >
  > Stéphane Zuckerman wrote:
  > > John Henry Xu a écrit :
  > >
  > >>>> Actually, my favorite sites are the
  > >>>
  > >>>
  > >>> ones that map "*.asp" to the Struts servlet. Gotta love people
  that
  > >>> bend minds like that!
  > >>
  > >>
  > >>
  > >>
  > >> I cannot imagine what motivates people tried to map there
  servlets to
  > >> .asp. Even I could easily map my site to .aspx, I would not do
  that.
  > >> Although I respect MS, I am not really a huge fun of Microsoft.
  If I
  > >> implement sites with Java, I want java take credits. If I
  implement sites
  > >> in PHP, I want PHP take credits, I would not map that to .asp.
  If I use
  > >> .net, I don't map it to jsp also. If I saw a site ends with .php
  or
  > >> .aspx, I assume that was a php and .net site, and I belieave I
  am right
  > >> on that with 99% confidence.
  > >
  > >
  > > I guess this is against wannabe crackers. Yes, yes, I know,
  security
  > > through obscurity, blah blah blah... Well, once you've done
  everything
  > > that isn't obfuscation-related, there is only obscurity that
  remains,
  > > and frankly, it does help gain a few {minutes,hours} before the
  nasty
  > > black hats break the server. :-)
  > >
  >
  > -- Neil Erdwien, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web Technologies Manager
  > Computing and Network Services, Kansas State University
  >
  >
  -
  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






John H. Xu


http://www.usanalyst.com 

http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Dakota Jack]

Struts could live by improving in ways unlikely with the present
management.  The people in charge of Struts these days are really
interested in something else.  Unless the baton passes to those
actively building something, Struts likely will either die from be
non-competitive with like products or from being turned into something
it is not, like JSF, Shale, Clay, Dirt.

On 7/26/05, Greg Reddin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Interesting this discussion would come up now.  I've been in and out of
> Struts for about 5 years.  I'm now coming back in and taking interest in
> JSF/Shale, etc.  A few of points to think about:
> 
> 1.  Struts will someday die.  If it doesn't, then we've seen the end of
> technology advancement.  If those of us who love Struts and what it
> provides want to continue to have influence going forward, we have to be
>   ready to embrace the next thing that's better than Struts and add
> value there.  Staying with something because of familiarity is typically
> the road to becoming a dinosaur in technology.
> 
> 2.  I only started studying JSF seriously about 2 weeks ago. From what
> I've seen it takes the best things Struts offers and brings them into a
> somewhat cleaner package.  Those things are:
> 
> *  Nice HTML tag library.
> *  Auto-populating of form beans.
> *  Simple controller interface.
> 
> It also expands on these things by making the view easier to develop,
> less restriction on how form beans and controllers are developed, and
> some other really interesting services that I've only begun to play
> with.  To sum it up, using JSF out of the box I can do most of what I
> can with Struts, only quicker and with less code.  I see JSF as the next
> step of Struts.  But it's still not complete.  I'm only beginning to see
> what Shale adds to JSF and am following Shale with great interest.
> 
> 3.  PHP.  I've done some PHP over the last couple years.  I'm by no
> means an expert, but I do know my way around somewhat.  The whole time
> I've caught myself thinking if I was in Java I'd have a better way to do
> just about everything.  But most of the "better way" is because of the
> J2EE APIs, Struts, and Tiles.  The language is a bit more cumbersome
> than Java and it's much more difficult to modularize.  I find PHP is
> easier (to me) if I don't try to make things elegant, but just "spew
> code" to some extent.  I finally found a CMS to use as a Struts-like
> framework, but I still find Java/Struts and now JSF to be better,
> cleaner, and more modular.  I am now trying to figure out a way to do my
> future "on-the-side" consulting in Java instead of PHP.
> 
> I think another of PHPs success factors has to do with its acceptance
> from the open source community.  Somehow Java has had a somewhat tainted
> reputation due to the lack of a truly open complete implementation --
> and probably some are just bitter that Sun hasn't opened the whole thing
> up.  I don't personally have anything to contribute to that debate, but
> I suspect it's a factor in why PHP has been so widely embraced on the
> web compared to Java.
> 
> So all in all, it doesn't much matter to me if JSF supercedes Struts.
> If it's better, then it should.  If we get behind Shale it think we can
> have our cake and eat it too.
> 
> BTW, for JSF info, try MyFaces.  Their Getting Started section points to
> some pretty good tutorials.  In short testing I've found the myfaces
> implementation to be pretty stable.  I'm actually surprised Craig is not
> listed as a contributor to that project.
> 
> That's my 50 cents.
> Greg
> 
> Daniel Perry wrote:
> > Sorry for the OT postings.
> >
> > My point was that you cant compare usage of PHP with Struts.
> >
> > The number of Struts sites (or even java sites) will never overtake the
> > number of PHP sites for the reasons i pointed out (although... zend are
> > doing their best to kill off php by trying to move it into the enterprise
> > arena and tying it with java).  But for those same reasons, comparing the
> > two is useless.
> >
> > As for JSF... It seems like a nice idea, but i havnt fully got my head round
> > it.  I cant see it killing off struts in the short term (just look at daily
> > rate of postings on this list!!!) I do like the idea of replacing struts
> > html tags with JSF.  I certainly think JSTL/EL are nicer than the logic
> > tags.
> >
> > I now have a dilema... I'm just about to start on another project.  What
> > technologies do i use?
> >
> > I guess i'll probably stick with struts.  Though i may dabble w

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Dakota Jack]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] is the lead?  Cool!

On 7/25/05, John Public <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
> confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
> becoming OBSOLETE. Make no mistake about it. JSF
> rocks. JSF is based on "true" MVC architecture, not
> the MODEL 2 version that Struts uses. Struts had a
> good run, now it is time to build on the JSF
> foundation. JSF is the ONLY foundation that can
> compete witn ASP.NET 2.0 at this time. Let's all get
> behind JSF before MS takes over the web. Hopefully
> Tool Vendors will harness JSF potential and make
> Front-end web dev as easy as VS 2005 does. Time is not
> on our side. Let's get busy !!!
> 
> J.J.
> JSF Developer (former Struts Lead Developer)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 
> 


-- 
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Neil Erdwien]

I presume preserving URLs is the reason to map one technology's default 
extention to another.  For example, if you have a static web site with 
files than end in .html, and switch to Java/Struts, then you can map 
*.html to the Struts' action servlet.


The end users' bookmarks don't have to change, but you're really running 
a Struts action under the covers.



Stéphane Zuckerman wrote:

John Henry Xu a écrit :


Actually, my favorite sites are the



ones that map "*.asp" to the Struts servlet. Gotta love people that
bend minds like that!





I cannot imagine what motivates people tried to map there servlets to
.asp. Even I could easily map my site to .aspx, I would not do that.
Although I respect MS, I am not really a huge fun of Microsoft. If I
implement sites with Java, I want java take credits. If I implement sites
in PHP, I want PHP take credits, I would not map that to .asp. If I use
.net, I don't map it to jsp also.  If I saw a site ends with .php or
.aspx, I assume that was a php and .net site, and I belieave I am right
on that with 99% confidence.  



I guess this is against wannabe crackers. Yes, yes, I know, security
through obscurity, blah blah blah... Well, once you've done everything
that isn't obfuscation-related, there is only obscurity that remains,
and frankly, it does help gain a few {minutes,hours} before the nasty
black hats break the server. :-)



--
Neil Erdwien, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web Technologies Manager
Computing and Network Services, Kansas State University

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Stéphane Zuckerman]

John Henry Xu a écrit :


Actually, my favorite sites are the


ones that map "*.asp" to the Struts servlet. Gotta love people that
bend minds like that!




I cannot imagine what motivates people tried to map there servlets to
.asp. Even I could easily map my site to .aspx, I would not do that.
Although I respect MS, I am not really a huge fun of Microsoft. If I
implement sites with Java, I want java take credits. If I implement sites
in PHP, I want PHP take credits, I would not map that to .asp. If I use
.net, I don't map it to jsp also.  If I saw a site ends with .php or
.aspx, I assume that was a php and .net site, and I belieave I am right
on that with 99% confidence.  


I guess this is against wannabe crackers. Yes, yes, I know, security
through obscurity, blah blah blah... Well, once you've done everything
that isn't obfuscation-related, there is only obscurity that remains,
and frankly, it does help gain a few {minutes,hours} before the nasty
black hats break the server. :-)

--
Stéphane Zuckerman


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Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

I think I need clarify my statements before.

> Craig, I assure you that I always hope Java success and I do think it
> popular for web app. The only thing I think I said Java was not doing
> well as PHP is that PHP becomes more popular in public sites.

>>That is definitely what you claimed.  I claim that such a standard is
>>irrelevant.

I just try to find where I said Java, as a whole, is not popular in web
application from my previous email. Unfortunately I can not find that
statement. Can someone post my original saying so I can find it? I really
like to know where I said that statement.

> [snip]
> >
> > If it uses Java in Apache, I may find mod_jk, or jsp, .do?... I found
> > .shtml mostly.
> >
>
> Consider a Struts based web site that maps "*.html" to the Struts
> action servlet (and there are more such sites on the public Internet
> than you would possibly believe :-). Your approach is going to come
> to the mistaken conclusion that this is a static HTML based site
> instead of a Struts based site. Actually, my favorite sites are the
> ones that map "*.asp" to the Struts servlet. Gotta love people that
> bend minds like that!
>
> But the serious point is that, if you think you can conclude anything
> based on the textual content of a URL, you are naively mistaken. Only
> the server you are calling knows for sure what technologies are used
> to produce a particular response.

Did I say I can conclude based on textual content of a URL? Someone
please find where I said that also. I really want see how I "concluded"
that.  

What I say was that there is No Evidence that www.javaworld.com uses java
in their site. If someone have evidence, please let me know. I really
like to see how and why that site tried to hide java implementation.  Am
I so naive about thinking html is static site? Just go to our sites, see
all the html there. If someone think those html are real html, they are
wrong.

>>Actually, my favorite sites are the
> ones that map "*.asp" to the Struts servlet. Gotta love people that
> bend minds like that!


I cannot imagine what motivates people tried to map there servlets to
.asp. Even I could easily map my site to .aspx, I would not do that.
Although I respect MS, I am not really a huge fun of Microsoft. If I
implement sites with Java, I want java take credits. If I implement sites
in PHP, I want PHP take credits, I would not map that to .asp. If I use
.net, I don't map it to jsp also.  If I saw a site ends with .php or
.aspx, I assume that was a php and .net site, and I belieave I am right
on that with 99% confidence.  

John H. Xu


http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[netsql]

news to some:
http://bugs.sakaiproject.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4981

I think it was said "us Java dudes" should talk less and produce apps 
more in this thread, which is what I said +1 too. It's hard to debate 
PHP vs Java on the server, which is better, which is bigger... bla, bla.


I know you can't do http://roomity.com/launch.jsp in PHP, that would be 
JDNC. And as of tmrw night it will run Linux-Mozilla and OSX-Saffari, 
not just Windoze!.  So if somone says why Java, you say RiA! won't you. 
Lets see somone do that.


(and ah... there is allways the business benefit of not having to post 
your email to mail groups... but we use apps for tech benfit :-) )


hth,
.V

ps: Like Ted said... sometimes we just use MVC we learned in Struts in 
other projects, and my JDNC impl is all MVC, developed by Struts dudes.


John Public wrote:
>  Make no mistake about it. JSF

rocks. JSF is based on "true" MVC architecture, not
the MODEL 2 version that Struts uses. 


J.J.
JSF Developer (former Struts Lead Developer)





--

.V

People are conversing... without posting their email or filling up their
mail box.
roomity.com 

No sign up to read or search this Rich Internet App.


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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

Thank Leon and Christopher for java hosting prices.

It seems it is more profitable in Europe. The US site Chris mentioned
uses Tomcat 5.

Leon, what java application softwares do you  provide in addition to the
server softwares? Do you think add EJB support can increase your
profitability?

I am thinking to add user cusomizable java forum, java blogs (like PHP
did)  for their corresonding hosted sites, in addition to EJB, struts,
Jboss, mysql, postgesql support.

Cheers,

John H. Xu
http://www.usanalyst.com
http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

  - Original Message -
  From: "Christopher Marsh-Bourdon"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:28:32 +0100

  >
  > http://www.prokmu.com/
  >
  > After looking at this, my servers are going on eBay! Sometimes it
  > doesn't pay to own your own kit.
  >
  > Cheers
  >
  > Christopher Marsh-Bourdon
  > www.marsh-bourdon.com
  > AIM: marshbourdon
  >
  >
  > On 27 Jul 2005, at 20:08, Leon Rosenberg wrote:
  >
  > >
  > > I charge 15-20 euro / month for an own tomcat, full ssh/scp
  access, apache
  > > in front, mysql dbs, mail server and so on.
  > > 30 euro for a full service package including backups and appl.
  level
  > > support.
  > >
  > > (from 50 euro on you can rent a complete machine at different
  providers in
  > > germany)
  > >
  > > Just for info :-)
  > >
  > > Leon
  > >
  > > P.S. 1 euro is 1.2 USD
  > >
  > >
  > >> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
  > >> Von: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. Juli 2005 20:18
  > >> An: Struts Users Mailing List
  > >> Betreff: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > >>
  > >> +1 on Yan Hu, Tamas and Pedro
  > >>
  > >> If one open a web hosting business, what should J2EE hosting
  > >> (including EJB, struts, JSP, servlets, MySQL, PostgreSQL, web
  > >> services on JBoss) charge per month that you are willing to
  > >> pay? What is the market price
  > >> for such hosting now? It seems there is a market there I
  > >> can explore.
  > >>
  > >> Regards,
  > >>
  > >> John H. Xu
  > >>
  > >> http://www.usanalyst.com
  > >> http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in
  > >> North America)
  > >>
  > >> - Original Message -
  > >> From: "Pedro Salgado"
  > >> To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  > >> Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > >> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:47:20 +0200
  > >>
  > >>
  > >>>
  > >>> +1 for that answer.
  > >>>
  > >>> Pedro Salgado
  > >>>
  > >>> On 27/07/2005 08:15, "Tamas Szabo" wrote:
  > >>>
  > >>>
  > >>>> I wouldn't bet on PHP being more popular than Java webapps.
  > >>>>
  > >>>> I think that there will be more smaller Java webapps if there
  > >>>>
  > >> were much
  > >>
  > >>>> support for them at web hosting companies.
  > >>>> I know several cases when Java webapp programmers, had
  > >>>>
  > >> to use PHP
  > >> to
  > >>
  > >>>> make some smaller webapps for someone because most web hosting
  > >>>>
  > >> companies
  > >>
  > >>>> offer PHP support but they have no
  > >>>> Java webcontainers installed.
  > >>>>
  > >>>> Tamas
  > >>>>
  > >>>>
  > >>>>
  > >>>> Yan Hu wrote:
  > >>>>
  > >>>>
  > >>>>> Xu:
  > >>>>> One of the reasons why you see a lot of PHP apps is that
  there
  > >>>>>
  > >> are always a
  > >>
  > >>>>> lot more small apps
  > >>>>> than large scale ones. I can not imagin you program a large
  > >>>>>
  > >> scale site using
  > >>
  > >>>>> PHP. If you are an OO
  > >>>>> guy, I could hardly imagin you even would like PHP(mixing all
  > >>>>>
  > >> server side
  > >>
  > >>>>> code with html code).
  > >>>>> 

RE: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Danilo Gurovich]

JSF is very nice for web applications that release on a more-than-quarterly 
basis.  The front-end gui widgets packed with it are nothing short of really 
basic HTML coding that most good coders would blush at.  Custom widgets need to 
be developed for real clean front-end functionality, and MyFaces has only 
limited support in this area, just as Struts-Layout does with "Struts" widgets.

I work in an eCommerce setting where the skill-sets, mind-sets and code-base 
are somewhat different from pure application development;  we release on a 
weekly basis, 90% of development is done at the front-end and is quite granular 
in nature.  The inflexibility of JSF in this area really shows something to me. 
 Struts and JSTL allow for much more granularity in this arena, better 
javascript support and allows for a less-than-optimal codebase to migrate to 
something better.  JSF in my opinion, is very intolerant with respect to this, 
as our test examples have proven to our team.  The biggest problem we've had 
with JSF is in our continuing and rapid changes needed to the UI and the need 
for major code changes in JSF to get the same thing that a few small changes to 
a JSP page can deliver (means that redeployment is low-risk).

Maybe some of you have a very stable, new and efficient eCommerce site that is 
high-transaction, enterprise-level and profitable, but my spies at most sites 
like these report the same findings.

I like the structure and framework that JSF proposes, but it's a long way from 
the rapid-release eCommerce Enterprise, as far as I see it.


Danilo Gurovich
Architect
LowerMyBills.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
2401 Colorado Ave., 2nd Floor 
Santa Monica, CA 90404
(310) 998-6412

 


-Original Message-
From: Leon Rosenberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 12:09 PM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

 
I charge 15-20 euro / month for an own tomcat, full ssh/scp access, apache in 
front, mysql dbs, mail server and so on.
30 euro for a full service package including backups and appl. level support.

(from 50 euro on you can rent a complete machine at different providers in
germany)

Just for info :-)

Leon

P.S. 1 euro is 1.2 USD

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. Juli 2005 20:18
> An: Struts Users Mailing List
> Betreff: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
> 
> +1 on Yan Hu, Tamas and Pedro
> 
> If one open a web hosting business, what should J2EE hosting 
> (including EJB, struts, JSP, servlets, MySQL, PostgreSQL, web services 
> on JBoss) charge per month that you are willing to pay? What is the 
> market price
> for such hosting now?   It seems there is a market there I 
> can explore.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> John H. Xu
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North 
> America)
> 
>   - Original Message -----
>   From: "Pedro Salgado"
>   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>   Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:47:20 +0200
> 
>   >
>   > +1 for that answer.
>   >
>   > Pedro Salgado
>   >
>   > On 27/07/2005 08:15, "Tamas Szabo" wrote:
>   >
>   > > I wouldn't bet on PHP being more popular than Java webapps.
>   > >
>   > > I think that there will be more smaller Java webapps if there
>   were much
>   > > support for them at web hosting companies.
>   > > I know several cases when Java webapp programmers, had to use 
> PHP
>   to
>   > > make some smaller webapps for someone because most web hosting
>   companies
>   > > offer PHP support but they have no
>   > > Java webcontainers installed.
>   > >
>   > > Tamas
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Yan Hu wrote:
>   > >
>   > >> Xu:
>   > >> One of the reasons why you see a lot of PHP apps is that there
>   are always a
>   > >> lot more small apps
>   > >> than large scale ones. I can not imagin you program a large
>   scale site using
>   > >> PHP. If you are an OO
>   > >> guy, I could hardly imagin you even would like PHP(mixing all
>   server side
>   > >> code with html code).
>   > >> There are a lot of java intranet applications you will never be
>   able to
>   > >> access. PHP has its niche
>   > >> in the small app domain. It is fine. But it will never be at 
> the
>   same level
>   > >> as Java. I do not
>   > >> understand why you thin

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Christopher Marsh-Bourdon]

http://www.prokmu.com/

After looking at this, my servers are going on eBay!  Sometimes it  
doesn't pay to own your own kit.


Cheers

Christopher Marsh-Bourdon
www.marsh-bourdon.com
AIM: marshbourdon


On 27 Jul 2005, at 20:08, Leon Rosenberg wrote:



I charge 15-20 euro / month for an own tomcat, full ssh/scp access,  
apache

in front, mysql dbs, mail server and so on.
30 euro for a full service package including backups and appl. level
support.

(from 50 euro on you can rent a complete machine at different  
providers in

germany)

Just for info :-)

Leon

P.S. 1 euro is 1.2 USD



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. Juli 2005 20:18
An: Struts Users Mailing List
Betreff: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

+1 on Yan Hu, Tamas and Pedro

If one open a web hosting business, what should J2EE hosting
(including EJB, struts, JSP, servlets, MySQL, PostgreSQL, web
services on JBoss) charge per month that you are willing to
pay? What is the market price
for such hosting now?   It seems there is a market there I
can explore.

Regards,

John H. Xu

http://www.usanalyst.com
http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in
North America)

  - Original Message -
  From: "Pedro Salgado"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:47:20 +0200




+1 for that answer.

Pedro Salgado

On 27/07/2005 08:15, "Tamas Szabo" wrote:



I wouldn't bet on PHP being more popular than Java webapps.

I think that there will be more smaller Java webapps if there


  were much


support for them at web hosting companies.
I know several cases when Java webapp programmers, had


to use PHP
  to


make some smaller webapps for someone because most web hosting


  companies


offer PHP support but they have no
Java webcontainers installed.

Tamas



Yan Hu wrote:



Xu:
One of the reasons why you see a lot of PHP apps is that there


  are always a


lot more small apps
than large scale ones. I can not imagin you program a large


  scale site using


PHP. If you are an OO
guy, I could hardly imagin you even would like PHP(mixing all


  server side


code with html code).
There are a lot of java intranet applications you will never be


  able to


access. PHP has its niche
in the small app domain. It is fine. But it will never


be at the
  same level


as Java. I do not
understand why you think PHP is more popular than Java. Let me


  ask you one


simple question. Why
are there so many more java jobs than PHP jobs? Anyone


will tell
  you it is


because there is a lot
more demand for java. So you get the idea. With the advent of


  JSF, Java will


be even sexier. I
have long wished for something like asp.net code behind in C#.


  Now we have


JSF code behind in
Java. If asp.net can be a big success, why can't JSF?







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Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in
North America)

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re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Leon Rosenberg]

 
I charge 15-20 euro / month for an own tomcat, full ssh/scp access, apache
in front, mysql dbs, mail server and so on.
30 euro for a full service package including backups and appl. level
support.

(from 50 euro on you can rent a complete machine at different providers in
germany)

Just for info :-)

Leon

P.S. 1 euro is 1.2 USD

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. Juli 2005 20:18
> An: Struts Users Mailing List
> Betreff: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
> 
> +1 on Yan Hu, Tamas and Pedro
> 
> If one open a web hosting business, what should J2EE hosting 
> (including EJB, struts, JSP, servlets, MySQL, PostgreSQL, web 
> services on JBoss) charge per month that you are willing to 
> pay? What is the market price
> for such hosting now?   It seems there is a market there I 
> can explore.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> John H. Xu
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in 
> North America)
> 
>   - Original Message -
>   From: "Pedro Salgado"
>   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>   Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:47:20 +0200
> 
>   >
>   > +1 for that answer.
>   >
>   > Pedro Salgado
>   >
>   > On 27/07/2005 08:15, "Tamas Szabo" wrote:
>   >
>   > > I wouldn't bet on PHP being more popular than Java webapps.
>   > >
>   > > I think that there will be more smaller Java webapps if there
>   were much
>   > > support for them at web hosting companies.
>   > > I know several cases when Java webapp programmers, had 
> to use PHP
>   to
>   > > make some smaller webapps for someone because most web hosting
>   companies
>   > > offer PHP support but they have no
>   > > Java webcontainers installed.
>   > >
>   > > Tamas
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Yan Hu wrote:
>   > >
>   > >> Xu:
>   > >> One of the reasons why you see a lot of PHP apps is that there
>   are always a
>   > >> lot more small apps
>   > >> than large scale ones. I can not imagin you program a large
>   scale site using
>   > >> PHP. If you are an OO
>   > >> guy, I could hardly imagin you even would like PHP(mixing all
>   server side
>   > >> code with html code).
>   > >> There are a lot of java intranet applications you will never be
>   able to
>   > >> access. PHP has its niche
>   > >> in the small app domain. It is fine. But it will never 
> be at the
>   same level
>   > >> as Java. I do not
>   > >> understand why you think PHP is more popular than Java. Let me
>   ask you one
>   > >> simple question. Why
>   > >> are there so many more java jobs than PHP jobs? Anyone 
> will tell
>   you it is
>   > >> because there is a lot
>   > >> more demand for java. So you get the idea. With the advent of
>   JSF, Java will
>   > >> be even sexier. I
>   > >> have long wished for something like asp.net code behind in C#.
>   Now we have
>   > >> JSF code behind in
>   > >> Java. If asp.net can be a big success, why can't JSF?
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   
> -
>   > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   
> -
>   > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   
> -
>   > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in 
> North America)
> 
> --
> ___
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
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> 



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re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Leon Rosenberg]

 
I charge 15-20 euro / month for an own tomcat, full ssh/scp access, apache
in front, mysql dbs, mail server and so on.
30 euro for a full service package including backups and appl. level
support.

(from 50 euro on you can rent a complete machine at different providers in
germany)

Just for info :-)

Leon

P.S. 1 euro is 1.2 USD

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. Juli 2005 20:18
> An: Struts Users Mailing List
> Betreff: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
> 
> +1 on Yan Hu, Tamas and Pedro
> 
> If one open a web hosting business, what should J2EE hosting 
> (including EJB, struts, JSP, servlets, MySQL, PostgreSQL, web 
> services on JBoss) charge per month that you are willing to 
> pay? What is the market price
> for such hosting now?   It seems there is a market there I 
> can explore.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> John H. Xu
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in 
> North America)
> 
>   - Original Message -
>   From: "Pedro Salgado"
>   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>   Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:47:20 +0200
> 
>   >
>   > +1 for that answer.
>   >
>   > Pedro Salgado
>   >
>   > On 27/07/2005 08:15, "Tamas Szabo" wrote:
>   >
>   > > I wouldn't bet on PHP being more popular than Java webapps.
>   > >
>   > > I think that there will be more smaller Java webapps if there
>   were much
>   > > support for them at web hosting companies.
>   > > I know several cases when Java webapp programmers, had 
> to use PHP
>   to
>   > > make some smaller webapps for someone because most web hosting
>   companies
>   > > offer PHP support but they have no
>   > > Java webcontainers installed.
>   > >
>   > > Tamas
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Yan Hu wrote:
>   > >
>   > >> Xu:
>   > >> One of the reasons why you see a lot of PHP apps is that there
>   are always a
>   > >> lot more small apps
>   > >> than large scale ones. I can not imagin you program a large
>   scale site using
>   > >> PHP. If you are an OO
>   > >> guy, I could hardly imagin you even would like PHP(mixing all
>   server side
>   > >> code with html code).
>   > >> There are a lot of java intranet applications you will never be
>   able to
>   > >> access. PHP has its niche
>   > >> in the small app domain. It is fine. But it will never 
> be at the
>   same level
>   > >> as Java. I do not
>   > >> understand why you think PHP is more popular than Java. Let me
>   ask you one
>   > >> simple question. Why
>   > >> are there so many more java jobs than PHP jobs? Anyone 
> will tell
>   you it is
>   > >> because there is a lot
>   > >> more demand for java. So you get the idea. With the advent of
>   JSF, Java will
>   > >> be even sexier. I
>   > >> have long wished for something like asp.net code behind in C#.
>   Now we have
>   > >> JSF code behind in
>   > >> Java. If asp.net can be a big success, why can't JSF?
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   
> -
>   > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   
> -
>   > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   
> -
>   > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in 
> North America)
> 
> --
> ___
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> 
> 



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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

+1 on Yan Hu, Tamas and Pedro

If one open a web hosting business, what should J2EE hosting (including
EJB, struts, JSP, servlets, MySQL, PostgreSQL, web services on JBoss)
charge per month that you are willing to pay? What is the market price
for such hosting now?   It seems there is a market there I can explore.

Regards,

John H. Xu

http://www.usanalyst.com
http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

  - Original Message -
  From: "Pedro Salgado"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:47:20 +0200

  >
  > +1 for that answer.
  >
  > Pedro Salgado
  >
  > On 27/07/2005 08:15, "Tamas Szabo" wrote:
  >
  > > I wouldn't bet on PHP being more popular than Java webapps.
  > >
  > > I think that there will be more smaller Java webapps if there
  were much
  > > support for them at web hosting companies.
  > > I know several cases when Java webapp programmers, had to use PHP
  to
  > > make some smaller webapps for someone because most web hosting
  companies
  > > offer PHP support but they have no
  > > Java webcontainers installed.
  > >
  > > Tamas
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Yan Hu wrote:
  > >
  > >> Xu:
  > >> One of the reasons why you see a lot of PHP apps is that there
  are always a
  > >> lot more small apps
  > >> than large scale ones. I can not imagin you program a large
  scale site using
  > >> PHP. If you are an OO
  > >> guy, I could hardly imagin you even would like PHP(mixing all
  server side
  > >> code with html code).
  > >> There are a lot of java intranet applications you will never be
  able to
  > >> access. PHP has its niche
  > >> in the small app domain. It is fine. But it will never be at the
  same level
  > >> as Java. I do not
  > >> understand why you think PHP is more popular than Java. Let me
  ask you one
  > >> simple question. Why
  > >> are there so many more java jobs than PHP jobs? Anyone will tell
  you it is
  > >> because there is a lot
  > >> more demand for java. So you get the idea. With the advent of
  JSF, Java will
  > >> be even sexier. I
  > >> have long wished for something like asp.net code behind in C#.
  Now we have
  > >> JSF code behind in
  > >> Java. If asp.net can be a big success, why can't JSF?
  > >>
  > >>
  > >>
  > >>
  -
  > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > >>
  > >>
  > >>
  > >>
  > >
  > >
  > >
  -
  > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  >
  >
  >
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Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Pedro Salgado]

+1 for that answer.

Pedro Salgado

On 27/07/2005 08:15, "Tamas Szabo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I wouldn't bet on PHP being more popular than Java webapps.
> 
> I think that there will be more smaller Java webapps if there were much
> support for them at web hosting companies.
> I know several cases when Java webapp programmers, had to use PHP to
> make some smaller webapps for someone because most web hosting companies
> offer PHP support but they have no
> Java webcontainers installed.
> 
> Tamas
> 
> 
> 
> Yan Hu wrote:
> 
>> Xu:
>> One of the reasons why you see a lot of PHP apps is that there are always a
>> lot more small apps
>> than large scale ones. I can not imagin you program a large scale site using
>> PHP. If you are an OO
>> guy, I could hardly imagin you even would like PHP(mixing all server side
>> code with html code).
>> There are a lot of java intranet applications you will never be able to
>> access. PHP has its niche
>> in the small app domain. It is fine. But it will never be at the same level
>> as Java. I do not
>> understand why you think PHP is more popular than Java. Let me ask you one
>> simple question. Why
>> are there so many more java jobs than PHP jobs? Anyone will tell you it is
>> because there is a lot
>> more demand for java. So you get the idea. With the advent of JSF, Java will
>> be even sexier. I
>> have long wished for something like asp.net code behind in C#. Now we have
>> JSF code behind in
>> Java. If asp.net can be a big success, why can't JSF?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
> 
> 
> -
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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

  - Original Message -
  From: "Stéphane Zuckerman"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:26:04 +0200

  >
  > Craig McClanahan a écrit :
  > > Tell me again how you come to the conclusion that Java is not a
  > > popular platform for web app deployments? (To say nothing of the
  fact
  > > that Microsoft might dispute the "PHP is king" rubric as well
  :-).
  >
  > I think this is always the same old argument : what we see on the
  > web are "Web sites", while J2EE is often (mostly ?) used for "Web
  > applications", which don't have the same goals at all.
  >
  > -- Stéphane Zuckerman
  >
  >
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+1.

I can find I said in my previous emails that "most public web sites,
including opensource sites, use PHP. PHP dominates on many web sites,
just do a google search.". But Where did I say Java is not popular in web
applications? Maybe someone can find my original posts about my declaring
"Java is not popular in web applications"?

Also it is interesting many mentioned "small sites in PHP"? Small by what
standard? development budget or actual users in a given time? Do we
consider opensource websites small/medium or large? This topics can
easily get emotional and better use facts.

John H. Xu

http://www.usanalyst.com
http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Pedro Salgado]

I don't agree on any comments about technology A going to destroy B, C or D.
It is not really the technology that will put an end to something is the
software development community and the customers that will say what they
prefer, want, can provide or have to use.
A real case: anyone remembers the BETA and VHS videos? BETA was better but
it was VHS which survived.

It is all like natural selection: only the stronger will survive. Use the
technology wisely and you will be strong, otherwise it will not do you
anything for you.





About the remark about putting Struts/iBatis out of the scope of PHP.

The only problem is that if you try to port something from one technology to
another you must, beforehand, understand which critical(s) problem(s) does
it solve and then implement it with the strengths of the new technology.
If you make a mapping between the codes then you will not really gaining
nothing by doing the port.

I made my own small php-struts like implementation and worked quite nice and
actually increase the quality, speed of my PHP applications plus my work
efficiency.
So I continued using and improving it.
I also made 1 class that helped me achieve something very similar to iBatis
with no complexity at all.



In conclusion, good ideas/implementations can and should be re-used but with
they must be thought on the correct context and implemented exploring the
strengths/advantages of the new language/technology and, sometimes, with a
lot of creativity.



Pedro Salgado

On 27/07/2005 13:07, "Daniel Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>> 3.  PHP.  I've done some PHP over the last couple years.
>> 
>> PHP and Struts are not antithetical. There have been several ports of
>> Struts to PHP, as well as Struts-like frameworks, such as Maverick and
>> FuseBox.
>> 
>> I'm not working in PHP myself, but if I were, you can bet I'd be
>> porting both Struts and iBATIS.
>> 
>> What we call Struts is not about Java, it's about an architecture that
>> pushes logic away from server pages and into a control layer that we
>> can configure via XML.
>> 
>> -Ted.
> 
> That is all true, but you'll find most php sites dont use anything that
> complicated.  And if they did, hosting would be more expensive.  e.g. phpBB
> is banned from most cheap shared hosting - it puts too much strain on
> php/mysql in a high volume server.
> 
> Also, java has been engineered to push things into layers.  Php has not.

> Also, java is OO.  Php is not (or is, but badly!).  I wrote an OO system a
> few years back in php, and it was a nightmare.
> The most annoying thing is
> that assignment/method parameters clones objects - it doesn't reference it.
> You can get round that by adding & in the right places. Only one nice OO
> thing is the serialize funtion.
> 
> So i would say that things like iBatis and struts fit nicely into the java
> world.  Give php-struts to the average php developer (i know lots of them)
> and theyd smile, and politely tell you where you can stick it.
> 
> Daniel.
> 
> 
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RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Pilgrim, Peter]

And somtimes you will arrive mid-project not necessarily on a "greenfield"
landscape where the technology decisions have already been defined
for you. What can a developer do except fall in line with the 
Struts-has-been-chosen-decission? The best you can do within
companies (corporations) is to get the management to accept the
latest release version and not accept a stale version e.g Struts 1.1 or
even version 1.1.

I am afraid, Struts, is here to stay until we see some well-publicised
proofs of concepts out there in the internet and in the headline news
that JSF or whatever out there is better. In IMHO you are more likely
to see well crafted Tapestry applications out there right here, right now



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 27 July 2005 13:10
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Cc: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!


I guess I am a little lost on this comment. There are hundreds / thousands of 
complex Java sites available on the internet. Examples include US Airways 
Reservation system, EBay, BlueCross BlueShield of South Carolina, CitiBank, etc.

All of these public sites support very large user bases.

"John Henry Xu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


"John Henry Xu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
07/26/2005 06:15 PM Please respond to
"Struts Users Mailing List" 


To
"Struts Users Mailing List" 


cc



Subject
RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!



Mark,

You are right. I worked on Java and hope Java success. That is the reason
my links are java-based. I just want see more sites written in Java. That
is why I think in Java world, we need more doers than talkers.
If more java programmers code complex sites, java could compete to PHP.
But now almost all public sites are dominated by PHP and others... Hope
other Java programmers provides Java links as well.

John H. Xu

http://www.usanalyst.com 

http://www.Getusobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  

 - Original Message -
 From: "Mark Benussi"
 To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'"
 Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
 Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:35:53 +0100

 >
 > It is interesting to see that the two sites on your footer are
 written using
 > JSP.
 >
 > -Original Message-
 > From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 > Sent: 26 July 2005 20:42
 > To: Struts Users Mailing List
 > Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
 >
 > It is interesting to see PHP that has simple programming models
 defeat
 > Java in real applications.
 >
 > This leads to a question: Do Java best programming models and
 frameworks
 > conter-productive for real applications and sites?
 >
 > The new frameworks, other than struts, I like Spring. I would not
 use
 > JSF unless JSF had some real applications (based on Sun's
 reputation on
 > their new technologies).
 >
 > John H. Xu
 >
 >
 > http://www.usanalyst.com
 >
 > http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
 America)
 >
 > - Original Message -
 > From: "Daniel Perry"
 > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
 > Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
 > Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:45:53 +0100
 >
 > >
 > > PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really. Scripted web
 page.
 > Main
 > > difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt
 > require any
 > > declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able
 > programmers.
 > >
 > > But the big difference is server requirements. JSP uses a lot
 more
 > server
 > > resources. PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass virtual
 > hosting
 > > servers. JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant.
 > >
 > > Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick up
 > php in a
 > > couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g.
 Struts+Java+JSP+Servlet
 > etc.
 > >
 > > This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i
 > normally pass it
 > > on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger
 > sites/apps
 > > that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers.
 > >
 > > Daniel.
 > >
 > > > -Original Message-
 > > > From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 > > > Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17
 > > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
 > > > Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in
 > > > real applications.
 > > >
 > > > EJB has been there for many

RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[BHansard]

I guess I am a little lost on this comment.  There are hundreds / thousands of complex Java sites available on the internet. Examples include US Airways Reservation system, EBay, BlueCross BlueShield of South Carolina, CitiBank,  etc.

All of these public sites support very large user bases.

">"John Henry Xu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>








"John Henry Xu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
07/26/2005 06:15 PM

Please respond to
"Struts Users Mailing List" 








To
"Struts Users Mailing List" 


cc



Subject
RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!








Mark,

You are right. I worked on Java and hope Java success. That is the reason
my links are java-based. I just want see more sites written in Java. That
is why I think in Java world, we need more doers than talkers.
If more java programmers code complex sites, java could compete to PHP.
But now almost all public sites are dominated by PHP and others... Hope
other Java programmers provides Java links as well.

John H. Xu

http://www.usanalyst.com 

http://www.Getusobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  

  - Original Message -
  From: "Mark Benussi"
  To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'"
  Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:35:53 +0100

  >
  > It is interesting to see that the two sites on your footer are
  written using
  > JSP.
  >
  > -Original Message-
  > From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  > Sent: 26 July 2005 20:42
  > To: Struts Users Mailing List
  > Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  >
  > It is interesting to see PHP that has simple programming models
  defeat
  > Java in real applications.
  >
  > This leads to a question: Do Java best programming models and
  frameworks
  > conter-productive for real applications and sites?
  >
  > The new frameworks, other than struts, I like Spring. I would not
  use
  > JSF unless JSF had some real applications (based on Sun's
  reputation on
  > their new technologies).
  >
  > John H. Xu
  >
  >
  > http://www.usanalyst.com
  >
  > http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
  America)
  >
  > - Original Message -
  > From: "Daniel Perry"
  > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  > Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:45:53 +0100
  >
  > >
  > > PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really. Scripted web
  page.
  > Main
  > > difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt
  > require any
  > > declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able
  > programmers.
  > >
  > > But the big difference is server requirements. JSP uses a lot
  more
  > server
  > > resources. PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass virtual
  > hosting
  > > servers. JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant.
  > >
  > > Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick up
  > php in a
  > > couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g.
  Struts+Java+JSP+Servlet
  > etc.
  > >
  > > This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i
  > normally pass it
  > > on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger
  > sites/apps
  > > that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers.
  > >
  > > Daniel.
  > >
  > > > -Original Message-
  > > > From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  > > > Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17
  > > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
  > > > Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in
  > > > real applications.
  > > >
  > > > EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of
  > > > configuration (at least before mature tools were developed)
  kept
  > > > many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI
  examples).
  > > >
  > > > Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed
  for
  > > > always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases,
  > > > following sun too closely is not wise.
  > > >
  > > > PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application.
  > > >
  > > > John H. Xu
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > http://www.usanalyst.com
  > > >
  > > > http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
  > America)
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >

RE: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Daniel Perry]

> > 3.  PHP.  I've done some PHP over the last couple years.
>
> PHP and Struts are not antithetical. There have been several ports of
> Struts to PHP, as well as Struts-like frameworks, such as Maverick and
> FuseBox.
>
> I'm not working in PHP myself, but if I were, you can bet I'd be
> porting both Struts and iBATIS.
>
> What we call Struts is not about Java, it's about an architecture that
> pushes logic away from server pages and into a control layer that we
> can configure via XML.
>
> -Ted.

That is all true, but you'll find most php sites dont use anything that
complicated.  And if they did, hosting would be more expensive.  e.g. phpBB
is banned from most cheap shared hosting - it puts too much strain on
php/mysql in a high volume server.

Also, java has been engineered to push things into layers.  Php has not.
Also, java is OO.  Php is not (or is, but badly!).  I wrote an OO system a
few years back in php, and it was a nightmare.  The most annoying thing is
that assignment/method parameters clones objects - it doesn't reference it.
You can get round that by adding & in the right places. Only one nice OO
thing is the serialize funtion.

So i would say that things like iBatis and struts fit nicely into the java
world.  Give php-struts to the average php developer (i know lots of them)
and theyd smile, and politely tell you where you can stick it.

Daniel.


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RE: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Daniel Perry]

This was the point i was making early on.

PHP is cheaper than java - in almost all ways.

Hosting: You can host php sites for a couple of pounds a month. Can you do
that with java?

Development: it's much easier to learn to make a PHP+Mysql databased web
site. Therefore programmers are cheaper.  Projects are cheaper. Therefore
more web design companies use php rather than java.

Servers: php has minimal overheads. It doesnt use a lot of memory, and it's
pretty efficient at executing pages (in mod_php mode rather than cgi).  It's
probably not as good as already-compiled jsps, but similar.  Java has huge
memory overheads. e.g. on one of our servers, httpd (inc php) is using 10MB,
Tomcat is using 140MB.  Tomcat has 4 apps (all small), php 38.

Most of our php apps are hosted on one server.  Most of our java apps have a
server each, and are on various companies intranets.  But most of our java
apps are much larger than the php ones - and a lot more maintainable!

Dont get me wrong. I much prefer writing systems using Struts, and push for
it.  But, we wont be doing all our sites in java anytime soon, as it's
cheaper to make small datbased sites in php.

Daniel.

> -Original Message-
> From: Tamas Szabo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 27 July 2005 07:16
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>
>
> I wouldn't bet on PHP being more popular than Java webapps.
>
> I think that there will be more smaller Java webapps if there were much
> support for them at web hosting companies.
> I know several cases when Java webapp programmers, had to use PHP to
> make some smaller webapps for someone because most web hosting companies
> offer PHP support but they have no
> Java webcontainers installed.
>
> Tamas
>
>
>
> Yan Hu wrote:
>
> >Xu:
> >One of the reasons why you see a lot of PHP apps is that there
> are always a lot more small apps
> >than large scale ones. I can not imagin you program a large
> scale site using PHP. If you are an OO
> >guy, I could hardly imagin you even would like PHP(mixing all
> server side code with html code).
> >There are a lot of java intranet applications you will never be
> able to access. PHP has its niche
> >in the small app domain. It is fine. But it will never be at the
> same level as Java. I do not
> >understand why you think PHP is more popular than Java. Let me
> ask you one simple question. Why
> >are there so many more java jobs than PHP jobs? Anyone will tell
> you it is because there is a lot
> >more demand for java. So you get the idea. With the advent of
> JSF, Java will be even sexier. I
> >have long wished for something like asp.net code behind in C#.
> Now we have JSF code behind in
> >Java. If asp.net can be a big success, why can't JSF?
> >
> >
> >
> >-
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> -
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>
>


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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Ted Husted]

On 7/26/05, Greg Reddin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 1.  Struts will someday die.  If it doesn't, then we've seen the end of
> technology advancement.  

And, someday, web applications, as we know them, will also die.

As mentioned elsewhere, ASP.NET made ASP Classic "obsolete" five years
ago. But, even today, I'm talking with a team who is only now planning
to migrate an enterprise application from classic to .NET. But, even
then, the coding won't start before 2006. I'm sure they are not alone.

Like it or not, the same thing will happen with Struts Classic
applications, but we will see even longer migration periods, because
Struts applications tend to be easier to maintain.

> 3.  PHP.  I've done some PHP over the last couple years.  

PHP and Struts are not antithetical. There have been several ports of
Struts to PHP, as well as Struts-like frameworks, such as Maverick and
FuseBox.

I'm not working in PHP myself, but if I were, you can bet I'd be
porting both Struts and iBATIS.

What we call Struts is not about Java, it's about an architecture that
pushes logic away from server pages and into a control layer that we
can configure via XML.

-Ted.

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Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Ted Husted]

On 7/26/05, Daniel Perry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can anyone recommend any good resources? Sure a google search provides tons
> of information... but which is any good?

Mastering JavaServer Faces is an excellent book for Struts developers
to read. The authors try to put JSF in context with both Struts and
Swing.  One of the authors, Bill Dudley, is a Apache MyFaces
committer.

* 
http://opensource.atlassian.com/confluence/oss/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=139

Books purchased through this link benefit the ASF. 

HTH,  Ted.

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts [NOT]

[Ted Husted]

On 7/26/05, Mark Benussi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If Struts 'dies' I will take it on personally and do whatever it needs that
> it seems to be lacking.

Feel free to step up any time,  Mark. We're always on the look out for
volunteers.

* http://struts.apache.org/faqs/helping.html

-Ted.

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[M4RC0]

I think so, each kind of project needs a type of solution, i developed
lot of simple web sites using ASP/PHP with content management and a
little bit of bussinnes logic, but by crossing the line to web
applications, those technologies turn useless, unsecure and hard to
maintain, reuse and scale.
I mean, technology used must always be related to project
requeriments, so we should point to choose the correct side of that
line to place our project (simple web site or web application).


2005/7/27, Stéphane Zuckerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Craig McClanahan a écrit :
> > Tell me again how you come to the conclusion that Java is not a
> > popular platform for web app deployments?  (To say nothing of the fact
> > that Microsoft might dispute the "PHP is king" rubric as well :-).
> 
> I think this is always the same old argument : what we see on the web
> are "Web sites", while J2EE is often (mostly ?) used for "Web
> applications", which don't have the same goals at all.
> 
> --
> Stéphane Zuckerman
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 


-- 
M4RC0

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Stéphane Zuckerman]

Craig McClanahan a écrit :

Tell me again how you come to the conclusion that Java is not a
popular platform for web app deployments?  (To say nothing of the fact
that Microsoft might dispute the "PHP is king" rubric as well :-).


I think this is always the same old argument : what we see on the web 
are "Web sites", while J2EE is often (mostly ?) used for "Web 
applications", which don't have the same goals at all.


--
Stéphane Zuckerman

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Tamas Szabo]

I wouldn't bet on PHP being more popular than Java webapps.

I think that there will be more smaller Java webapps if there were much 
support for them at web hosting companies.

I know several cases when Java webapp programmers, had to use PHP to
make some smaller webapps for someone because most web hosting companies 
offer PHP support but they have no

Java webcontainers installed.

Tamas



Yan Hu wrote:


Xu:
One of the reasons why you see a lot of PHP apps is that there are always a lot 
more small apps
than large scale ones. I can not imagin you program a large scale site using 
PHP. If you are an OO
guy, I could hardly imagin you even would like PHP(mixing all server side code 
with html code).
There are a lot of java intranet applications you will never be able to access. 
PHP has its niche
in the small app domain. It is fine. But it will never be at the same level as 
Java. I do not
understand why you think PHP is more popular than Java. Let me ask you one 
simple question. Why
are there so many more java jobs than PHP jobs? Anyone will tell you it is 
because there is a lot
more demand for java. So you get the idea. With the advent of JSF, Java will be 
even sexier. I
have long wished for something like asp.net code behind in C#. Now we have JSF 
code behind in
Java. If asp.net can be a big success, why can't JSF?



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Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Yan Hu]

Xu:
One of the reasons why you see a lot of PHP apps is that there are always a lot 
more small apps
than large scale ones. I can not imagin you program a large scale site using 
PHP. If you are an OO
guy, I could hardly imagin you even would like PHP(mixing all server side code 
with html code).
There are a lot of java intranet applications you will never be able to access. 
PHP has its niche
in the small app domain. It is fine. But it will never be at the same level as 
Java. I do not
understand why you think PHP is more popular than Java. Let me ask you one 
simple question. Why
are there so many more java jobs than PHP jobs? Anyone will tell you it is 
because there is a lot
more demand for java. So you get the idea. With the advent of JSF, Java will be 
even sexier. I
have long wished for something like asp.net code behind in C#. Now we have JSF 
code behind in
Java. If asp.net can be a big success, why can't JSF?



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Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Craig McClanahan]

On 7/26/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Craig said: Tell me again how you come to the conclusion that Java is
> not a
> > popular platform for web app deployments? (To say nothing of the fact
> > that Microsoft might dispute the "PHP is king" rubric as well :-).
> 
> Craig, I assure you that I always hope Java success and I do think it
> popular for web app. The only thing I think I said Java was not doing
> well as PHP is that PHP becomes more popular in public sites.

That is definitely what you claimed.  I claim that such a standard is
irrelevant.

[snip]
> 
> If it uses Java in Apache, I may find mod_jk, or jsp, .do?... I found
> .shtml mostly.
> 

Consider a Struts based web site that maps "*.html" to the Struts
action servlet (and there are more such sites on the public Internet
than you would possibly believe :-).  Your approach is going to come
to the mistaken conclusion that this is a static HTML based site
instead of a Struts based site.  Actually, my favorite sites are the
ones that map "*.asp" to the Struts servlet.  Gotta love people that
bend minds like that!

But the serious point is that, if you think you can conclude anything
based on the textual content of a URL, you are naively mistaken.  Only
the server you are calling knows for sure what technologies are used
to produce a particular response.

Craig

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Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

> Craig said: Tell me again how you come to the conclusion that Java is
not a
> popular platform for web app deployments? (To say nothing of the fact
> that Microsoft might dispute the "PHP is king" rubric as well :-).

Craig, I assure you that I always hope Java success and I do think it
popular for web app. The only thing I think I said Java was not doing
well as PHP is that PHP becomes more popular in public sites. I mentioned
all opensource and other public sites use PHP as evidence, and search
engines showes php sites frequently. And as I said before, I agree with
you that maybe broad criteria should be used. We just have to find a way
how to get those private numbers.

> > example, I found www.javaworld.com, the site runs "Apache/1.3.26,
Unix,
> > mod_gzip/1.3.19.1a , mod_perl/1.27". It likes cgi, isn't it?
> >
>
> No ... that just means they have PERL installed on their installation
> of the app server, with no indication what else is going on. That has
> absolutely nothing to do with what technologies are actually used on
> that site (which happens to have a combination, so how are you going
> to count that? :-).

If it uses Java in Apache, I may find mod_jk, or jsp, .do?... I found
.shtml mostly.

I agree with you here that it is difficult to find exacty what
technologies it use. That is another reason why it is difficult to use
some  criteria determine the overall success as you said. Indeed it is
hard to compare private sites.

> Craig said: But I do know a few other numbers  consider downloads
of the J2EE
> 1.4 implementation from Sun (or the 8.0 or later PE version of the app
> server, but can be downloaded for free) which come with JSF. You need
> seven digits (i.e. millions) to count these numbers ... yet Sun's
> overall penetration in the app server space is relatively small. Is
> Tomcat in the millions yet? (Answer: probably, but not as many :-).

The facts you mentioned certainly supported Java is popular in web
development. And I am glad to see these numbers.

  - Original Message -----
  From: "Craig McClanahan"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:46:14 -0700

  >
  > On 7/26/05, John Henry Xu wrote:
  > > > Craig said:You can't properly measure a technology's overall
  success on
  > > a single
  > > > criteria like this.
  > >
  > > Craig, you are absolutely right. Maybe there is a better way to
  measure
  > > technologies based on broader criteria. The problem was I (or
  public)
  > > could not access proprietary networks as you said. I used search
  engines
  > > a lot recently. Many topics I searched come up sites in PHP and
  cgi. For
  > > example, I found www.javaworld.com, the site runs "Apache/1.3.26,
  Unix,
  > > mod_gzip/1.3.19.1a , mod_perl/1.27". It likes cgi, isn't it?
  > >
  >
  > No ... that just means they have PERL installed on their
  installation
  > of the app server, with no indication what else is going on. That
  has
  > absolutely nothing to do with what technologies are actually used
  on
  > that site (which happens to have a combination, so how are you
  going
  > to count that? :-).
  >
  > > Again, I agree with you that maybe many hidden sites were Java
  but we
  > > don't know.
  >
  > Then why are you trying to make any assumptions? You claim to be a
  > journalist ... do some research and justify your findings :-)
  >
  > Of course, you're going to find it very difficult to find many
  > meaningful metrics for open source projects. Let's consider one
  > commonly used one ... download counts. On an Apache project, there
  is
  > zero way to know what that count is, because good projects take
  > advantage of the Apache mirror system, and there is no central
  > accumulation of the overall stats (because the mirror sites
  consider
  > that information to be proprietary). I can tell you that, a couple
  of
  > years ago, before Struts started using the mirrors it would get
  about
  > 70k downloads per month ... nowdays, it gets 15k-20k from the
  Apache
  > site and a totally unknown number from the mirrors. So, has the
  total
  > gone up or down? Darned if I know.
  >
  > But I do know a few other numbers  consider downloads of the
  J2EE
  > 1.4 implementation from Sun (or the 8.0 or later PE version of the
  app
  > server, but can be downloaded for free) which come with JSF. You
  need
  > seven digits (i.e. millions) to count these numbers ... yet Sun's
  > overall penetration in the app server space is relatively small. Is
  > T

Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Craig McClanahan]

On 7/26/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Craig said:You can't properly measure a technology's overall success on
> a single
> > criteria like this.
> 
> Craig, you are absolutely right. Maybe there is a better way to measure
> technologies based on broader criteria. The problem was I (or public)
> could not access proprietary networks as you said. I used search engines
> a lot recently. Many topics I searched come up sites in PHP and cgi. For
> example, I found www.javaworld.com, the site runs "Apache/1.3.26,  Unix,
> mod_gzip/1.3.19.1a ,   mod_perl/1.27". It likes cgi, isn't it?
> 

No ... that just means they have PERL installed on their installation
of the app server, with no indication what else is going on.  That has
absolutely nothing to do with what technologies are actually used on
that site (which happens to have a combination, so how are you going
to count that? :-).

> Again, I agree with you that maybe many hidden sites were Java but we
> don't know.

Then why are you trying to make any assumptions?  You claim to be a
journalist ... do some research and justify your findings :-)

Of course, you're going to find it very difficult to find many
meaningful metrics for open source projects.  Let's consider one
commonly used one ... download counts.  On an Apache project, there is
zero way to know what that count is, because good projects take
advantage of the Apache mirror system, and there is no central
accumulation of the overall stats (because the mirror sites consider
that information to be proprietary).  I can tell you that, a couple of
years ago, before Struts started using the mirrors it would get about
70k downloads per month ... nowdays, it gets 15k-20k from the Apache
site and a totally unknown number from the mirrors.  So, has the total
gone up or down?  Darned if I know.

But I do know a few other numbers  consider downloads of the J2EE
1.4 implementation from Sun (or the 8.0 or later PE version of the app
server, but can be downloaded for free) which come with JSF.  You need
seven digits (i.e. millions) to count these numbers ... yet Sun's
overall penetration in the app server space is relatively small.  Is
Tomcat in the millions yet?  (Answer:  probably, but not as many :-).

Tell me again how you come to the conclusion that Java is not a
popular platform for web app deployments?  (To say nothing of the fact
that Microsoft might dispute the "PHP is king" rubric as well :-).

> 
> John Henry Xu
> 

Craig

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Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Rokibul Islam Khan]

All the time you are missing one thing my friend, the marketting words
"Servlet/jsp/struts is for large application". Those site you are
talking about is nothing more than a small/large/medium sized portal
type application.

Comparing PHP and Java is a kind of vague idea. We choose technology
which will confirm our ROI. for small scale application where u don't
need 1000 transactions per hour php is well fitted rather than java.
As far as i understand PHP is a kind of cheap technology that  can
confirm  ur ROI for small or even mid scale application but for large
application i don't think it will be wellfitted except creating big
mess.

Personally i like both struts and jsf. jsf have come with the goodies
of struts and improved many other side as well. i am not an expert on
jsf and have no experiance with it but if jsf is better than struts
then jsf should come up to take the place of struts as a better
technology.



-- 
--
Rokibul Islam Khan
Software Developer


On 7/27/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Craig said:You can't properly measure a technology's overall success on
> a single
> > criteria like this.
> 
> Craig, you are absolutely right. Maybe there is a better way to measure
> technologies based on broader criteria. The problem was I (or public)
> could not access proprietary networks as you said. I used search engines
> a lot recently. Many topics I searched come up sites in PHP and cgi. For
> example, I found www.javaworld.com, the site runs "Apache/1.3.26,  Unix,
> mod_gzip/1.3.19.1a ,   mod_perl/1.27". It likes cgi, isn't it?
> 
> Again, I agree with you that maybe many hidden sites were Java but we
> don't know.
> 
> John Henry Xu
> 
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "Craig McClanahan"
>   To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
>   Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>   Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:41:14 -0700
> 
>   >
>   > On 7/26/05, John Henry Xu wrote:
>   >
>   > > But now almost all public sites are dominated by PHP and
>   others...
>   >
>   > Whatever the actual truth of this assertion, don't forget that the
>   > number of public Internet based webapps is not all that large
>   compared
>   > to the total number of webapps running behind the firewalls of
>   various
>   > companies (For example, Sun, with many *thousands* of internal
>   > application installations on our internal network -- but you'll
>   never
>   > see them if you're not a Sun employee).
>   >
>   > You can't properly measure a technology's overall success on a
>   single
>   > criteria like this.
>   >
>   > Craig
>   >
>   >
>   -
>   > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
> 
> http://www.usanalyst.com
> 
> http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
> 
> --
> ___
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> 
> 
>

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Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

> Craig said:You can't properly measure a technology's overall success on
a single
> criteria like this.

Craig, you are absolutely right. Maybe there is a better way to measure
technologies based on broader criteria. The problem was I (or public)
could not access proprietary networks as you said. I used search engines
a lot recently. Many topics I searched come up sites in PHP and cgi. For
example, I found www.javaworld.com, the site runs "Apache/1.3.26,  Unix, 
mod_gzip/1.3.19.1a ,   mod_perl/1.27". It likes cgi, isn't it?

Again, I agree with you that maybe many hidden sites were Java but we
don't know.

John Henry Xu

  - Original Message -
  From: "Craig McClanahan"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:41:14 -0700

  >
  > On 7/26/05, John Henry Xu wrote:
  >
  > > But now almost all public sites are dominated by PHP and
  others...
  >
  > Whatever the actual truth of this assertion, don't forget that the
  > number of public Internet based webapps is not all that large
  compared
  > to the total number of webapps running behind the firewalls of
  various
  > companies (For example, Sun, with many *thousands* of internal
  > application installations on our internal network -- but you'll
  never
  > see them if you're not a Sun employee).
  >
  > You can't properly measure a technology's overall success on a
  single
  > criteria like this.
  >
  > Craig
  >
  >
  -
  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com 

http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Craig McClanahan]

On 7/26/05, John Henry Xu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> But now almost all public sites are dominated by PHP and others...

Whatever the actual truth of this assertion, don't forget that the
number of public Internet based webapps is not all that large compared
to the total number of webapps running behind the firewalls of various
companies (For example, Sun, with many *thousands* of internal
application installations on our internal network -- but you'll never
see them if you're not a Sun employee).

You can't properly measure a technology's overall success on a single
criteria like this.

Craig

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[netsql]

John Henry Xu wrote:


You are right. I worked on Java and hope Java success. That is the reason
my links are java-based. I just want see more sites written in Java. That
is why I think in Java world, we need more doers than talkers.
If more java programmers code complex sites, java could compete to PHP.
But now almost all public sites are dominated by PHP and others... Hope
other Java programmers provides Java links as well.



+1



--

.V

People are conversing... without posting their email or filling up their
mail box.
roomity.com 

No sign up to read or search this Rich Internet App.


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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Dave Newton]

John Henry Xu wrote:


Leon Rosenberg: Actually I promised myself not to response to your posts, since 
it doesn't make sense...
   


I remind myself that I don't answer to insulting and irrelevant comments. So...
 


Uh, you just did.


 > > It is interesting to see PHP that has simple programming models
 > > defeat Java in real applications.
 


He's right; that didn't make any sense.

PHP has complicated programming models, too; it has frameworks just like 
Java does.


Doesn't mean you have to use them, just like you don't have to use 
"complicated models" for programming Java, either--you can write 
everything in the JSP, use straight JDBC/SQL, etc. and it'll look a lot 
like PHP.


You'll end up with a plate full of spaghetti code with either language 
if you don't bother using one of those complicated programming models.


Dave

RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

Mark,

You are right. I worked on Java and hope Java success. That is the reason
my links are java-based. I just want see more sites written in Java. That
is why I think in Java world, we need more doers than talkers.
If more java programmers code complex sites, java could compete to PHP.
But now almost all public sites are dominated by PHP and others... Hope
other Java programmers provides Java links as well.

John H. Xu

http://www.usanalyst.com 

http://www.Getusobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  

  - Original Message -
  From: "Mark Benussi"
  To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'"
  Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:35:53 +0100

  >
  > It is interesting to see that the two sites on your footer are
  written using
  > JSP.
  >
  > -Original Message-
  > From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > Sent: 26 July 2005 20:42
  > To: Struts Users Mailing List
  > Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  >
  > It is interesting to see PHP that has simple programming models
  defeat
  > Java in real applications.
  >
  > This leads to a question: Do Java best programming models and
  frameworks
  > conter-productive for real applications and sites?
  >
  > The new frameworks, other than struts, I like Spring. I would not
  use
  > JSF unless JSF had some real applications (based on Sun's
  reputation on
  > their new technologies).
  >
  > John H. Xu
  >
  >
  > http://www.usanalyst.com
  >
  > http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
  America)
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "Daniel Perry"
  > To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  > Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:45:53 +0100
  >
  > >
  > > PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really. Scripted web
  page.
  > Main
  > > difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt
  > require any
  > > declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able
  > programmers.
  > >
  > > But the big difference is server requirements. JSP uses a lot
  more
  > server
  > > resources. PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass virtual
  > hosting
  > > servers. JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant.
  > >
  > > Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick up
  > php in a
  > > couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g.
  Struts+Java+JSP+Servlet
  > etc.
  > >
  > > This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i
  > normally pass it
  > > on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger
  > sites/apps
  > > that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers.
  > >
  > > Daniel.
  > >
  > > > -Original Message-
  > > > From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > > > Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17
  > > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
  > > > Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in
  > > > real applications.
  > > >
  > > > EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of
  > > > configuration (at least before mature tools were developed)
  kept
  > > > many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI
  examples).
  > > >
  > > > Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed
  for
  > > > always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases,
  > > > following sun too closely is not wise.
  > > >
  > > > PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application.
  > > >
  > > > John H. Xu
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > http://www.usanalyst.com
  > > >
  > > > http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
  > America)
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > - Original Message -
  > > > From: netsql
  > > > To: user@struts.apache.org
  > > > Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > > > Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:13:05 -0500
  > > >
  > > > >
  > > > > John Public wrote:
  > > > > > After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
  > > > > > confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
  > > > > > becoming OBSOLETE.
  > > > >
  > > > > :-) Enhydra and Torque would say that too circa 2001.
  > > > > 

Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

> Leon Rosenberg: Actually I promised myself not to response to your
posts, since it doesn't
> make sense...

I remind myself that I don't answer to insulting and irrelevant comments.
So...

John H. Xu

http://www.usanalyst.com 


http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  

  - Original Message -
  From: "Leon Rosenberg"
  To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'"
  Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:50:10 +0200

  >
  > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
  > > Von: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Dienstag,
  > > 26. Juli 2005 21:42
  > > An: Struts Users Mailing List
  > > Betreff: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  >
  > Actually I promised myself not to response to your posts, since it
  doesn't
  > make sense...
  >
  > But...
  >
  >
  > >
  > > It is interesting to see PHP that has simple programming models
  > > defeat Java in real applications.
  >
  >
  > How exactly you define a defeat?
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  -
  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Mark Benussi]

It is interesting to see that the two sites on your footer are written using
JSP.

-Original Message-
From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 26 July 2005 20:42
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

It is interesting to see PHP that has simple programming models defeat
Java in real applications.

This leads to a question: Do Java best programming models and frameworks
conter-productive for real applications and sites?

The new frameworks, other than struts, I like Spring. I would not use
JSF unless JSF had some real applications (based on Sun's reputation on
their new technologies).

John H. Xu


http://www.usanalyst.com 

http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  

  - Original Message -
  From: "Daniel Perry"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:45:53 +0100

  >
  > PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really. Scripted web page.
  Main
  > difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt
  require any
  > declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able
  programmers.
  >
  > But the big difference is server requirements. JSP uses a lot more
  server
  > resources. PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass virtual
  hosting
  > servers. JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant.
  >
  > Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick up
  php in a
  > couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g. Struts+Java+JSP+Servlet
  etc.
  >
  > This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i
  normally pass it
  > on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger
  sites/apps
  > that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers.
  >
  > Daniel.
  >
  > > -Original Message-
  > > From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > > Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17
  > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
  > > Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > >
  > >
  > > JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in
  > > real applications.
  > >
  > > EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of
  > > configuration (at least before mature tools were developed) kept
  > > many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI examples).
  > >
  > > Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed for
  > > always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases,
  > > following sun too closely is not wise.
  > >
  > > PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application.
  > >
  > > John H. Xu
  > >
  > >
  > > http://www.usanalyst.com
  > >
  > > http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
  America)
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > - Original Message -
  > > From: netsql
  > > To: user@struts.apache.org
  > > Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > > Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:13:05 -0500
  > >
  > > >
  > > > John Public wrote:
  > > > > After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
  > > > > confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
  > > > > becoming OBSOLETE.
  > > >
  > > > :-) Enhydra and Torque would say that too circa 2001.
  > > > Put up a site and lets see it.
  > > >
  > > > > Let's all get
  > > > > behind JSF before MS takes over the web.
  > > >
  > > > Nothing wrong w/ C# IMO.
  > > > I think PHP is "best(fast and cheap, lowest risk, most roi)"
  for
  > > > "genric" server side rendering applications. (But then... I
  think
  > > > the future is client side rendering )
  > > > If JSF(or EJB) fails, it won't be becuase somone did not "get
  > > behind it".
  > > >
  > > > Competition should give us best answer, and I am all for using
  > > > better tech. Every few years I'd like a new tech please.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > -- .V
  > > >
  > > > People are conversing... without posting their email or filling
  up
  > > their
  > > > mail box.
  > > > roomity.com
  > > >
  > > > No sign up to read or search this Rich Internet App.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > >
  -
  > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > 

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Leon Rosenberg]

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Juli 2005 21:42
> An: Struts Users Mailing List
> Betreff: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

Actually I promised myself not to response to your posts, since it doesn't
make sense...

But...
 

> 
> It is interesting to see PHP that has simple programming 
> models defeat Java in real applications.


How exactly you define a defeat?




-
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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Leon Rosenberg]

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Juli 2005 21:42
> An: Struts Users Mailing List
> Betreff: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

Actually I promised myself not to response to your posts, since it doesn't
make sense...

But...
 

> 
> It is interesting to see PHP that has simple programming 
> models defeat Java in real applications.


How exactly you define a defeat?




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RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

It is interesting to see PHP that has simple programming models defeat
Java in real applications.

This leads to a question: Do Java best programming models and frameworks
conter-productive for real applications and sites?

The new frameworks, other than struts, I like Spring. I would not use
JSF unless JSF had some real applications (based on Sun's reputation on
their new technologies).

John H. Xu


http://www.usanalyst.com 

http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  

  - Original Message -
  From: "Daniel Perry"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List"
  Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:45:53 +0100

  >
  > PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really. Scripted web page.
  Main
  > difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt
  require any
  > declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able
  programmers.
  >
  > But the big difference is server requirements. JSP uses a lot more
  server
  > resources. PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass virtual
  hosting
  > servers. JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant.
  >
  > Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick up
  php in a
  > couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g. Struts+Java+JSP+Servlet
  etc.
  >
  > This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i
  normally pass it
  > on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger
  sites/apps
  > that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers.
  >
  > Daniel.
  >
  > > -Original Message-
  > > From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > > Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17
  > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
  > > Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > >
  > >
  > > JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in
  > > real applications.
  > >
  > > EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of
  > > configuration (at least before mature tools were developed) kept
  > > many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI examples).
  > >
  > > Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed for
  > > always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases,
  > > following sun too closely is not wise.
  > >
  > > PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application.
  > >
  > > John H. Xu
  > >
  > >
  > > http://www.usanalyst.com
  > >
  > > http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
  America)
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > - Original Message -
  > > From: netsql
  > > To: user@struts.apache.org
  > > Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  > > Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:13:05 -0500
  > >
  > > >
  > > > John Public wrote:
  > > > > After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
  > > > > confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
  > > > > becoming OBSOLETE.
  > > >
  > > > :-) Enhydra and Torque would say that too circa 2001.
  > > > Put up a site and lets see it.
  > > >
  > > > > Let's all get
  > > > > behind JSF before MS takes over the web.
  > > >
  > > > Nothing wrong w/ C# IMO.
  > > > I think PHP is "best(fast and cheap, lowest risk, most roi)"
  for
  > > > "genric" server side rendering applications. (But then... I
  think
  > > > the future is client side rendering )
  > > > If JSF(or EJB) fails, it won't be becuase somone did not "get
  > > behind it".
  > > >
  > > > Competition should give us best answer, and I am all for using
  > > > better tech. Every few years I'd like a new tech please.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > -- .V
  > > >
  > > > People are conversing... without posting their email or filling
  up
  > > their
  > > > mail box.
  > > > roomity.com
  > > >
  > > > No sign up to read or search this Rich Internet App.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > >
  -
  > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Jack H. Xu
  > > Technology columnist and editor
  > >
  > > http://www.usanalyst.com
  > >
  > > http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North
  America)
  > >
  > > --
  > > ___
  > > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
  > > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
  > >
  > >
  >
  >
  >
  -
  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Greg Reddin]

Interesting this discussion would come up now.  I've been in and out of 
Struts for about 5 years.  I'm now coming back in and taking interest in 
JSF/Shale, etc.  A few of points to think about:


1.  Struts will someday die.  If it doesn't, then we've seen the end of 
technology advancement.  If those of us who love Struts and what it 
provides want to continue to have influence going forward, we have to be 
 ready to embrace the next thing that's better than Struts and add 
value there.  Staying with something because of familiarity is typically 
the road to becoming a dinosaur in technology.


2.  I only started studying JSF seriously about 2 weeks ago. From what 
I've seen it takes the best things Struts offers and brings them into a 
somewhat cleaner package.  Those things are:


*  Nice HTML tag library.
*  Auto-populating of form beans.
*  Simple controller interface.

It also expands on these things by making the view easier to develop, 
less restriction on how form beans and controllers are developed, and 
some other really interesting services that I've only begun to play 
with.  To sum it up, using JSF out of the box I can do most of what I 
can with Struts, only quicker and with less code.  I see JSF as the next 
step of Struts.  But it's still not complete.  I'm only beginning to see 
what Shale adds to JSF and am following Shale with great interest.


3.  PHP.  I've done some PHP over the last couple years.  I'm by no 
means an expert, but I do know my way around somewhat.  The whole time 
I've caught myself thinking if I was in Java I'd have a better way to do 
just about everything.  But most of the "better way" is because of the 
J2EE APIs, Struts, and Tiles.  The language is a bit more cumbersome 
than Java and it's much more difficult to modularize.  I find PHP is 
easier (to me) if I don't try to make things elegant, but just "spew 
code" to some extent.  I finally found a CMS to use as a Struts-like 
framework, but I still find Java/Struts and now JSF to be better, 
cleaner, and more modular.  I am now trying to figure out a way to do my 
future "on-the-side" consulting in Java instead of PHP.


I think another of PHPs success factors has to do with its acceptance 
from the open source community.  Somehow Java has had a somewhat tainted 
reputation due to the lack of a truly open complete implementation -- 
and probably some are just bitter that Sun hasn't opened the whole thing 
up.  I don't personally have anything to contribute to that debate, but 
I suspect it's a factor in why PHP has been so widely embraced on the 
web compared to Java.


So all in all, it doesn't much matter to me if JSF supercedes Struts. 
If it's better, then it should.  If we get behind Shale it think we can 
have our cake and eat it too.


BTW, for JSF info, try MyFaces.  Their Getting Started section points to 
some pretty good tutorials.  In short testing I've found the myfaces 
implementation to be pretty stable.  I'm actually surprised Craig is not 
listed as a contributor to that project.


That's my 50 cents.
Greg

Daniel Perry wrote:

Sorry for the OT postings.

My point was that you cant compare usage of PHP with Struts.

The number of Struts sites (or even java sites) will never overtake the
number of PHP sites for the reasons i pointed out (although... zend are
doing their best to kill off php by trying to move it into the enterprise
arena and tying it with java).  But for those same reasons, comparing the
two is useless.

As for JSF... It seems like a nice idea, but i havnt fully got my head round
it.  I cant see it killing off struts in the short term (just look at daily
rate of postings on this list!!!) I do like the idea of replacing struts
html tags with JSF.  I certainly think JSTL/EL are nicer than the logic
tags.

I now have a dilema... I'm just about to start on another project.  What
technologies do i use?

I guess i'll probably stick with struts.  Though i may dabble with JSF a
bit.

Can anyone recommend any good resources? Sure a google search provides tons
of information... but which is any good?

Daniel.



-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Benussi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 10:38
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!


No offence but this is a daft conversation that I have seen too
many times.
Say Struts is dead to a certain Blue vendor who has just releases their
latest Portal server which is built on Struts and they may smile wryly.

The number of sites out there running Struts is huge and the number of
products that rely on it as also fairly big. Anyone in the
telecoms industry
will know how even the latest version of Broadvision uses Struts.

I have attended some JSF talks, and the technology seems powerful but I am
not sold. I came to 

Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

  From: netsql
  To: user@struts.apache.org
  Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:27:35 -0500

  > There is DAO, etc for PHP, take a look at architecture of TikiWiki.
  > And my faviorte lesson: Home page of Spring is in Plone.
  >
  > Here is a good summary of what's out there:
  >
  
http://www.opensourcecms.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=388&Itemid=143
  >
  > So if you do non RiA application you need to objactivley
  > consider php and plone, see if they have a solution w/ less risk.
  >

Thank netsql for these sites. Look at the lists that netsql provides, and
the fact all open source hosts on PHP, I feel we have to code more
meaningful sites in java. Spring should host their sites developed by
Spring, just like Microsoft hosts msn on IIS.

I could not figure out what google/yahoo used in their site (CGI?).

At least, I have coded and will code my sites with java.

John H. Xu


http://www.usanalyst.com 

http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[BHansard]

I am the same way.  I have a large collection of common libraries that I have developed over the past 5 years or so.  Each iteration, they get a little more powerful.  I can create a highly scalable and complex application very quickly using Struts because of this.  Yes java may be overkill for a personal home page, but for mission critical applications or sites that require 1000's of transactions per hour, it is a must.  I hope JSF takes off and becomes as easy to use as VS 2005, but until a wide range of either customer components or vendor developed components are available, its reach will be limited by comparision.  I think it will happen, but not over night.  Until then, there are very few languages that can deliver the power and speed of development as my struts / Java library.


">"Mark Benussi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>








"Mark Benussi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
07/26/2005 07:45 AM

Please respond to
"Struts Users Mailing List" 








To
user@struts.apache.org


cc



Subject
Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!








Luckily my apps are written with a large amount of the code written for each 
customer, with reusable taglibs plugging into each site. All my DAO etc is 
done as the sites use the same DB schema and therefore code.

I am 90% of the way there from day 0 with each customer so this is not an 
issue.

I dont think i am falling for any marketing theory, I have bene doing Java 
apps for about 7 years. I didnt even see your point anyway. Is it marketing 
hype to state that Struts/Java/Servlets is for large
applications and I would not build a suite of actions and database pooling 
for my old mans plane photos web site

Original Message Follows
From: netsql <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" 
To: user@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:27:35 -0500

Mark Benussi wrote:

>
>I have never done any PHP so I can't comment, but agree with the previous
>comments in so far as Struts/Java/Servlets is for large applications. I
>would not build a suite of actions and database pooling for my old mans
>plane photos web site.
>
>

You may be just repeating the marketing theory, not what was validated in 
practice. Friendster switched to PHP after Java, so I guess they did not 
find Java scaleable.
On a large project you may want to reduce risk by starting w/ 80% of project 
done and customize the last 20%. Imagine, 1st week and you are 80% done.
There is DAO, etc for PHP, take a look at architecture of TikiWiki.
And my faviorte lesson: Home page of Spring is in Plone.

Here is a good summary of what's out there:
http://www.opensourcecms.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=388&Itemid=143

So if you do non RiA application you need to objactivley consider php 
and plone, see if they have a solution w/ less risk.

.V


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[netsql]

Mark Benussi wrote:
Is it

marketing hype to state that Struts/Java/Servlets is for large
applications and I would not build a suite of actions and database 
pooling for my old mans plane photos web site





Why would you say that?

.V


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Mark Benussi]

Luckily my apps are written with a large amount of the code written for each 
customer, with reusable taglibs plugging into each site. All my DAO etc is 
done as the sites use the same DB schema and therefore code.


I am 90% of the way there from day 0 with each customer so this is not an 
issue.


I dont think i am falling for any marketing theory, I have bene doing Java 
apps for about 7 years. I didnt even see your point anyway. Is it marketing 
hype to state that Struts/Java/Servlets is for large
applications and I would not build a suite of actions and database pooling 
for my old mans plane photos web site


Original Message Follows
From: netsql <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" 
To: user@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:27:35 -0500

Mark Benussi wrote:



I have never done any PHP so I can't comment, but agree with the previous
comments in so far as Struts/Java/Servlets is for large applications. I
would not build a suite of actions and database pooling for my old mans
plane photos web site.




You may be just repeating the marketing theory, not what was validated in 
practice. Friendster switched to PHP after Java, so I guess they did not 
find Java scaleable.
On a large project you may want to reduce risk by starting w/ 80% of project 
done and customize the last 20%. Imagine, 1st week and you are 80% done.

There is DAO, etc for PHP, take a look at architecture of TikiWiki.
And my faviorte lesson: Home page of Spring is in Plone.

Here is a good summary of what's out there:
http://www.opensourcecms.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=388&Itemid=143

So if you do non RiA application you need to objactivley consider php 
and plone, see if they have a solution w/ less risk.


.V


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[netsql]

Mark Benussi wrote:



I have never done any PHP so I can't comment, but agree with the previous
comments in so far as Struts/Java/Servlets is for large applications. I
would not build a suite of actions and database pooling for my old mans
plane photos web site.




You may be just repeating the marketing theory, not what was validated 
in practice. Friendster switched to PHP after Java, so I guess they did 
not find Java scaleable.
On a large project you may want to reduce risk by starting w/ 80% of 
project done and customize the last 20%. Imagine, 1st week and you are 
80% done.

There is DAO, etc for PHP, take a look at architecture of TikiWiki.
And my faviorte lesson: Home page of Spring is in Plone.

Here is a good summary of what's out there:
http://www.opensourcecms.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=388&Itemid=143

So if you do non RiA application you need to objactivley consider 
php and plone, see if they have a solution w/ less risk.


.V


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Daniel Perry]

Sorry for the OT postings.

My point was that you cant compare usage of PHP with Struts.

The number of Struts sites (or even java sites) will never overtake the
number of PHP sites for the reasons i pointed out (although... zend are
doing their best to kill off php by trying to move it into the enterprise
arena and tying it with java).  But for those same reasons, comparing the
two is useless.

As for JSF... It seems like a nice idea, but i havnt fully got my head round
it.  I cant see it killing off struts in the short term (just look at daily
rate of postings on this list!!!) I do like the idea of replacing struts
html tags with JSF.  I certainly think JSTL/EL are nicer than the logic
tags.

I now have a dilema... I'm just about to start on another project.  What
technologies do i use?

I guess i'll probably stick with struts.  Though i may dabble with JSF a
bit.

Can anyone recommend any good resources? Sure a google search provides tons
of information... but which is any good?

Daniel.

> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Benussi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 26 July 2005 10:38
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>
>
> No offence but this is a daft conversation that I have seen too
> many times.
> Say Struts is dead to a certain Blue vendor who has just releases their
> latest Portal server which is built on Struts and they may smile wryly.
>
> The number of sites out there running Struts is huge and the number of
> products that rely on it as also fairly big. Anyone in the
> telecoms industry
> will know how even the latest version of Broadvision uses Struts.
>
> I have attended some JSF talks, and the technology seems powerful but I am
> not sold. I came to server side programming from DHTML and like the way
> struts still lets you work at that end with large freedom but
> also a lot of
> powerful taglibs.
>
> If Struts 'dies' I will take it on personally and do whatever it
> needs that
> it seems to be lacking.
>
> I have never done any PHP so I can't comment, but agree with the previous
> comments in so far as Struts/Java/Servlets is for large applications. I
> would not build a suite of actions and database pooling for my old mans
> plane photos web site.
>
> As for this server requirements, yes Java (Tomcat whatever else) needs
> server resources, but once its loaded it flies as its threaded. Am I right
> in thinking PHP is not threaded i.e. holding F5 on a PHP page can
> cause some
> processing issues? Anyway no offence but I don't want to know the answer.
> This is a Struts list and I accept JSF is vaguely relevant but I am not
> going to utter another sentence about PHP.
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Perry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 26 July 2005 09:46
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>
> PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really.  Scripted web page.  Main
> difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt require any
> declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able programmers.
>
> But the big difference is server requirements.  JSP uses a lot more server
> resources.  PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass virtual hosting
> servers.  JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant.
>
> Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick up php in a
> couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g. Struts+Java+JSP+Servlet etc.
>
> This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i
> normally pass it
> on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger sites/apps
> that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers.
>
> Daniel.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
> >
> >
> > JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in
> > real applications.
> >
> > EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of
> > configuration (at least before mature tools were developed) kept
> > many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI examples).
> >
> > Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed for
> > always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases,
> > following sun too closely is not wise.
> >
> > PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application.
> >
> > John H. Xu
> >
> >
> > http://www.usanalyst.com
> >
> > http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free j

RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Mark Benussi]

No offence but this is a daft conversation that I have seen too many times.
Say Struts is dead to a certain Blue vendor who has just releases their
latest Portal server which is built on Struts and they may smile wryly.

The number of sites out there running Struts is huge and the number of
products that rely on it as also fairly big. Anyone in the telecoms industry
will know how even the latest version of Broadvision uses Struts.

I have attended some JSF talks, and the technology seems powerful but I am
not sold. I came to server side programming from DHTML and like the way
struts still lets you work at that end with large freedom but also a lot of
powerful taglibs.

If Struts 'dies' I will take it on personally and do whatever it needs that
it seems to be lacking.

I have never done any PHP so I can't comment, but agree with the previous
comments in so far as Struts/Java/Servlets is for large applications. I
would not build a suite of actions and database pooling for my old mans
plane photos web site.

As for this server requirements, yes Java (Tomcat whatever else) needs
server resources, but once its loaded it flies as its threaded. Am I right
in thinking PHP is not threaded i.e. holding F5 on a PHP page can cause some
processing issues? Anyway no offence but I don't want to know the answer.
This is a Struts list and I accept JSF is vaguely relevant but I am not
going to utter another sentence about PHP.

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Perry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 26 July 2005 09:46
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really.  Scripted web page.  Main
difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt require any
declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able programmers.

But the big difference is server requirements.  JSP uses a lot more server
resources.  PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass virtual hosting
servers.  JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant.

Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick up php in a
couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g. Struts+Java+JSP+Servlet etc.

This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i normally pass it
on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger sites/apps
that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers.

Daniel.

> -Original Message-
> From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>
>
> JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in
> real applications.
>
> EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of
> configuration (at least before mature tools were developed) kept
> many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI examples).
>
> Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed for
> always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases,
> following sun too closely is not wise.
>
> PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application.
>
> John H. Xu
>
>
> http://www.usanalyst.com
>
> http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
>
>
>
>   - Original Message -----
>   From: netsql
>   To: user@struts.apache.org
>   Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>   Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:13:05 -0500
>
>   >
>   > John Public wrote:
>   > > After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
>   > > confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
>   > > becoming OBSOLETE.
>   >
>   > :-) Enhydra and Torque would say that too circa 2001.
>   > Put up a site and lets see it.
>   >
>   > > Let's all get
>   > > behind JSF before MS takes over the web.
>   >
>   > Nothing wrong w/ C# IMO.
>   > I think PHP is "best(fast and cheap, lowest risk, most roi)" for
>   > "genric" server side rendering applications. (But then... I think
>   > the future is client side rendering )
>   > If JSF(or EJB) fails, it won't be becuase somone did not "get
>   behind it".
>   >
>   > Competition should give us best answer, and I am all for using
>   > better tech. Every few years I'd like a new tech please.
>   >
>   >
>   > -- .V
>   >
>   > People are conversing... without posting their email or filling up
>   their
>   > mail box.
>   > roomity.com
>   >
>   > No sign up to read or search this Rich Internet App.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   -
>   > To unsubscribe

RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Daniel Perry]

PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really.  Scripted web page.  Main
difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt require any
declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able programmers.

But the big difference is server requirements.  JSP uses a lot more server
resources.  PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass virtual hosting
servers.  JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant.

Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick up php in a
couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g. Struts+Java+JSP+Servlet etc.

This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i normally pass it
on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger sites/apps
that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers.

Daniel.

> -Original Message-
> From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>
>
> JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in
> real applications.
>
> EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of
> configuration (at least before mature tools were developed) kept
> many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI examples).
>
> Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed for
> always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases,
> following sun too closely is not wise.
>
> PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application.
>
> John H. Xu
>
>
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>   - Original Message -----
>   From: netsql
>   To: user@struts.apache.org
>   Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
>   Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:13:05 -0500
>
>   >
>   > John Public wrote:
>   > > After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
>   > > confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
>   > > becoming OBSOLETE.
>   >
>   > :-) Enhydra and Torque would say that too circa 2001.
>   > Put up a site and lets see it.
>   >
>   > > Let's all get
>   > > behind JSF before MS takes over the web.
>   >
>   > Nothing wrong w/ C# IMO.
>   > I think PHP is "best(fast and cheap, lowest risk, most roi)" for
>   > "genric" server side rendering applications. (But then... I think
>   > the future is client side rendering )
>   > If JSF(or EJB) fails, it won't be becuase somone did not "get
>   behind it".
>   >
>   > Competition should give us best answer, and I am all for using
>   > better tech. Every few years I'd like a new tech please.
>   >
>   >
>   > -- .V
>   >
>   > People are conversing... without posting their email or filling up
>   their
>   > mail box.
>   > roomity.com
>   >
>   > No sign up to read or search this Rich Internet App.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   -
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>   > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jack H. Xu
> Technology columnist and editor
>
> http://www.usanalyst.com
>
> http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
>
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Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Henry Xu]

JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in real 
applications. 

EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of configuration (at 
least before mature tools were developed) kept many J2EE projects expensive and 
over budgets (bad ROI examples).

Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed for always 
providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases, following sun too 
closely is not wise.

PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application.

John H. Xu


http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  



  - Original Message -
  From: netsql
  To: user@struts.apache.org
  Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
  Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:13:05 -0500

  >
  > John Public wrote:
  > > After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
  > > confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
  > > becoming OBSOLETE.
  >
  > :-) Enhydra and Torque would say that too circa 2001.
  > Put up a site and lets see it.
  >
  > > Let's all get
  > > behind JSF before MS takes over the web.
  >
  > Nothing wrong w/ C# IMO.
  > I think PHP is "best(fast and cheap, lowest risk, most roi)" for
  > "genric" server side rendering applications. (But then... I think
  > the future is client side rendering )
  > If JSF(or EJB) fails, it won't be becuase somone did not "get
  behind it".
  >
  > Competition should give us best answer, and I am all for using
  > better tech. Every few years I'd like a new tech please.
  >
  >
  > -- .V
  >
  > People are conversing... without posting their email or filling up
  their
  > mail box.
  > roomity.com
  >
  > No sign up to read or search this Rich Internet App.
  >
  >
  >
  -
  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[Michael Jouravlev]

On 7/25/05, John Public <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
> confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
> becoming OBSOLETE. Make no mistake about it. JSF
> rocks. JSF is based on "true" MVC architecture, not
> the MODEL 2 version that Struts uses. Struts had a
> good run, now it is time to build on the JSF
> foundation. JSF is the ONLY foundation that can
> compete witn ASP.NET 2.0 at this time. Let's all get
> behind JSF before MS takes over the web. Hopefully
> Tool Vendors will harness JSF potential and make
> Front-end web dev as easy as VS 2005 does. Time is not
> on our side. Let's get busy !!!
> 
> J.J.
> JSF Developer (former Struts Lead Developer)

Brainwashed, converted, brandishing with a cross, on a mission to save
unholy ones from gehenna.

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Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[netsql]

John Public wrote:

After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
becoming OBSOLETE. 


:-) Enhydra and Torque would say that too circa 2001.
Put up a site and lets see it.


Let's all get
behind JSF before MS takes over the web. 


Nothing wrong w/ C# IMO.
I think PHP is "best(fast and cheap, lowest risk, most roi)" for 
"genric" server side rendering applications. (But then... I think the 
future is client side rendering )

If JSF(or EJB) fails, it won't be becuase somone did not "get behind it".

Competition should give us best answer, and I am all for using better 
tech. Every few years I'd like a new tech please.



--

.V

People are conversing... without posting their email or filling up their
mail box.
roomity.com 

No sign up to read or search this Rich Internet App.


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JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!

[John Public]

After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
becoming OBSOLETE. Make no mistake about it. JSF
rocks. JSF is based on "true" MVC architecture, not
the MODEL 2 version that Struts uses. Struts had a
good run, now it is time to build on the JSF
foundation. JSF is the ONLY foundation that can
compete witn ASP.NET 2.0 at this time. Let's all get
behind JSF before MS takes over the web. Hopefully
Tool Vendors will harness JSF potential and make
Front-end web dev as easy as VS 2005 does. Time is not
on our side. Let's get busy !!!

J.J.
JSF Developer (former Struts Lead Developer)





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