Re: [Vo]:List integrity
OK , Lomax, you are an expert in deception and twist and spin. I bow to your skill and go away. The entire list can document this time that I am letting Lomax have the last word. I will no longer post unless asked a specific question or insulted whether directly or in reference. Please let this escalating round of insults end. I'm tired. One of my new year's resolution is not to engage with Lomax anymore. Can't win with liars? (I know I know, but you may insult me back one more time and I will not respond. But I will respond to further insults beyond one.) Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:List integrity At 12:45 AM 12/31/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Herein is the fallacy of your comments. You claim that the insults are mild, and that I do not have the right to respond to mild insults. Beautiful. My post is quoted below. I did not claim that Jojo did not have the right to respond. I don't see that I called the insults mild. Some comments that Jojo responded to were mild, one was essentially Fuck you. This is the lie you keep on propagating. Whether the insult in mild or grave is not for you to decide. I didn't say mild. But I do have the right to my opinions. Opinions like mild or grave are not fact. The person that the insult is directed at is the person that has the right to decide whether the insult was mild or grave. You have no right to claim that I should not be offended because in your eyes, the insult is mild. That's bullcrap. I did not say that Jojo should not be offended. Heck, in my eyes, calling allah a moon god and calling muhammed a sex pervert is a mild insult; yet I do not go around and lie that your response to me was improper because I only mildly insulted you. The graveness of the insult is the gravenes of how the recipient have percieved it. The recipient's perception is the only valid basis for deciding whether an insult is mild or grave. By this standard, then, given that many *would* respond to those statements as highly offensive, and given that one list member was obviously so highly insulted by Jojo's comments that he responded with fuck you, Jojo has just condemned himself as having issued grave insults without grave provocation. Jojo's comment in that case was actually mild -- my opinion --, by comparison with others, but it had an effect that could have been predicted. All my insults have always been a response to an insult, whether personal, as in F*** yourself or general as in the Bible is a fairy tale or The Bible is written by illiterate goat herders. Both statements are false, and insulting whether they are personal or general. For the same reason why you feel that I have insulted you by calling muhammed a sex pervert. No, you did not insult me by saying that. You insulted friends of mine, and you insulted me by calling me a liar when I described what you had done *accurately,* often with links, and by dismissing the product of my sincere research as lies, without actually pointing out *one lie,* and totally disregarding evidence. You seem to think that my vigorous response to an insult is unwarranted because the initial insults are mild. Seem is the operative word here. It seems so to Jojo. I don't think Jojo's response was unwarranted, but I'll say right now that it was insane, it was excessive for Vortex, which is a *social judgment.* That is not for you to decide my friend. You have no right to dictate the level of response I give out. That's correct. Jojo decides, and Jojo is responsible for what Jojo does, and cannot shift responsibility to others because he perceives them as insulting him. But I can assure you, I take great pains in deciding the level of nastiness I give back. I take considerable consideration that it is always calibrated to the level of nastiness directed my way. Jojo From this mail, as is common here, the judgment is deranged. Insults have been perceived when there was none. Jojo fantastizes about what has been said about him. When the truth is written, he *reads contempt into it.* That reveals how he actually thinks about himself. A turd, he called himself in several posts. It's all made up. He is not a turd. Satan tells him he is, and he fights with Satan, something that Jesus advised against. He projects this war all over us. - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 4:51 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:List integrity I this post I review the early history of controversy involving Jojo Jaro on this list. Jojo began with clearly relevant postings on alternative energy research. That went on for some time, until May, 2012, when a problem appeared. Ultimately, this study leads
Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
Indeed. There is a Catholic school in Birmingham, UK, where the majority of pupils are Muslim http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/birminghams-catholic-school-where-90-of-the-pupils-231115 Nigel On 31/12/2012 04:40, Jojo Jaro wrote: Yes, Christian catholic schools are more tolerant of other faiths, but not muslims. You can not go to a muslim school like the one Obama went to unless you are a muslim. Before Lomax spins this again; may I simply ask readers to research this on their own to see which of us both is lying. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Boeing Electric Airplane- LENR
Robin, The required water could be retrieved from the atmosphere during the flight, e.g. by condensation. I guess we need a few figures and statistics whether this is feasible though. On Monday, December 31, 2012, wrote: In reply to Alain Sepeda's message of Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:54:02 +0100: Hi, [snip] Their idea is to use hybrid propulsion... LENR have huge autonomy, but LENr and worse, turbines, have low power density Since peak power is huge with planes, while average is lower, it is rational to store energy... in the report they propose batteries... Given the huge weight savings in fuel, perhaps the lower efficiency of steam turbines can be lived with? The problem with generating Hydrogen on the spot is that all the Hydrogen required needs to be carried in the form of water, which once again adds a huge amount of weight, since the energy liberated in the turbine is normal chemical energy, implying much more water than conventional fuel (assuming it can't be condensed reused once it has been through the gas turbines). All in all, my generator would be better. Energetic alphas generated through fusion as required, and used to heat in-flowing air to produce thrust in an almost conventional gas turbine. About a lb of fuel would easily take a fully laden 747-8 around the planet, non-stop. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:40 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I am fairly confident that these inventors do not claim that the electrical energy recovered due to the returning piston is significant compared to the mechanical output. I haven't followed this detail up to now. Here I am way out of my depth, but consider the following: * There is probably a high-capacity capacitor bank in most models that is used in part to create an electric arc in the gas. * When Feynman pulled the plug during the demo, the engine was ok for a little while, and then Papp got nervous, and then there was an explosion and some weird liquid. * In one of the kits (Bob's? John's?), a coil has been omitted; presumably this coil when present will have the effect of recovering some electricity through inductance, whatever else it does. What if in the Feynman incident the capacitor bank was somehow maxed out and then released its magic smoke? Eric
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
On 12/30/2012 11:09 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: OK, since you asked, do not call me a troll by answering this. Genesis chapter 6 is the source of this. This passage is the reason why God destroyed the Earth I think this is the source of the conflict: Epistemology dictates that all knowledge comes from observation. When we converse with each other in an attempt to exchange knowledge, we use the Universe around us as a reference point in the exchange of truth. There is no such thing as communication without this common reference point. Words refer to existents and communication is act of exchanging observations about the Universe. There is no other source for knowledge since the Universe is all that exists, by definition. This epistemology is at the foundation of science. Using a book, such as Genesis, as a source of information is not valid. It is heresay from an unverifiable source. Likewise, faith is not a means of cognition, since there is no independent way of ascertaining which faith is correct -- and what correct even means without a reference to the Universe. So Jaro, what you're seeing as insults, are challenges to your epistemology. They are not insults, but you may interpret them as such since such challenges rip at core beliefs. I also see a problem with definitions you use. You use terms like 'God' and 'Angels' without defining these terms. When I've spoken with Christians before on such terms, they have never provided a definition. With 'God', they will typically say that he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present, but such descriptions defy definition. To define something is to delimit it from other existents. Without a way to delimit its characteristics, it simply cannot exist. There is no difference between something that is 'everything' and something that is 'nothing'. Which characteristics would be different? There can't be a difference when there are no identifiable characteristics. Craig
RE: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
From Jed: ... His [Huizenga's] purpose was to preserve funding for high energy physics, ... And that, IMO, pretty much sums it up. As for all the other annoying shenanigans, they all strike me as just another means to an end. Whatever works in order to squash the opposition. If it sticks to the side of the refrigerator. mission accomplished. When the dust eventually settles, and historical scholars roll up their sleeves and start sifting through the all the personal public documentation, I suspect the need to preserve the care and feeding of the high energy physics community alone will most likely stand out like an undeniable sore thumb. I freely admit a personal fantasy of mine where I hope the Vortex-l list may help play a minor role in pointing scholars in the right direction concerning whom to contact in order to get the low-down, but who knows. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
I think we are dealing with an entropic force that can remove entropy from
the gas at times as well as give it back in the way of charged particles
On Monday, December 31, 2012, Eric Walker wrote:
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:40 PM, David Roberson
dlrober...@aol.comjavascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'dlrober...@aol.com');
wrote:
I am fairly confident that these inventors do not claim that the
electrical energy recovered due to the returning piston is significant
compared to the mechanical output.
I haven't followed this detail up to now. Here I am way out of my depth,
but consider the following:
* There is probably a high-capacity capacitor bank in most models that is
used in part to create an electric arc in the gas.
* When Feynman pulled the plug during the demo, the engine was ok for a
little while, and then Papp got nervous, and then there was an explosion
and some weird liquid.
* In one of the kits (Bob's? John's?), a coil has been omitted; presumably
this coil when present will have the effect of recovering some electricity
through inductance, whatever else it does.
What if in the Feynman incident the capacitor bank was somehow maxed out
and then released its magic smoke?
Eric
Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
my wife know that school. it is a Jakarta dowtown secular state school... the country is muslim, yet there is 6 religion allowed, yet mandatory (you have to believe in one single god, with a paradise... that is the rule... whichever it is is your choice, even if like US there are political group using religion to reach power, and some increasing discrimination against minorities, nationally or locally) until recently when liberalisation inspired by humanrightists develop, the hijab (woman head scarf, which is much more sexy in indonesia than in saudi arabia) was forbidden in state school... and whatever you can say, it is clear Obama speak more like an evangelist priest... A bit shocking for a secular French, but if american love that style, it is their own freedom... Our choices since 10 years are criticized by more than 50% of the population, so we cannot give lessons... ah ah ;-) note also that what is evident from France is that US president is very weak because of the constitution, by design ... parliament rules and is republican... It is clear that US fear their government... whether it is good or not is not to be discussed... I just remind facts. 2012/12/31 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com His own autobiography says that he went to muslim school in Indonesia. You can't go to muslim school unless you're muslim. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies On what evidence do you base your assertion that President Obama is a Muslim? On Dec 29, 2012, at 9:39 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: No, I am not stating that the President is a muslim. I am stating that the Usurper is a muslim. We currently don't have a legitimate president; we have a usurper sitting on the throne. Why doesn't he just come clean? He could do this with a single 2 minute phone call to the Hawaiian authorities to open access to his vault BC. He can quickly end this controversy, establish his legitimacy, kill the Birther movement and start the healing of the nation. He can do all that in 2 minutes, yet he spends over 4 million dollars of Tax payer's money to block access to this vault BC. Why block access to such an innocuous document? WHY indeed? He won't because he can't. This is the pattern of a corrupt leader proped up by a corrupt shadow government strengthened by corrupt demonic forces. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies Are you stating that the President is Muslim? On Dec 27, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: Lomax does not understand that this Executive Order covers anything related to previous and current presidents. Anything about this current president is covered by this order. IF anyone wants to release information about Obama's BC, they have to go thru Eric Holder (the corrupt right henchman) or thru the Presidential counsel; for approval. This is the veil of corruption surrounding this usurper-in-thief and people like lomax are gving him a pass. I'm not surprised as lies are OK for Lomax as long as it helps prop up his illegitimate usurper muslim president. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 6:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies At 03:50 AM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Here is the actual Executive Order that Obama issued immediately after he took power. The Media spins this as rescinding a Bush Executive Order 13233. But in fact, it is a new Executive Order to specifically require his approval before release of any information, obstensively because of Executive Privelege. Obstentively? Took me a moment. Ostensibly. Release of any information. Sure. Any information of what type, where located, and by whom? Now, Lomax, who is lying now. Do I get my apology now? What exactly have you debunked? you blatant liar. No, no apology, unless you show that the Executive Order does what you claimed. I not only never claimed that this *particular* Exectuive Order did not exist, I linked to it and discussed it specifically. [...] Go Ahead, take you best spin shoot. Let's see what spin and lies you'll come up next. You've acknowledged all along that what you are doing is spinning. You have acknowledged that you say things that aren't true to create a dramatic image. That's spin. But I'll give you a fair chance here. You claimed that this document is an Executive Order which blocks access to Obama's vault BC. Below, I quote a bit of what I wrote, to which you are responding. I wrote, in more than one way, If he fails to apologize, or point to an actual order doing
RE: [Vo]:List integrity
I went digging through my Junk eMail folder to find what I was sure would be a response from Mr.Jaro. Mr. Jaro replied: And the provocations and insults continue. Since you are clearly incapable of conprehending simple English prose. I will spell it out for you. I drank a total of about 5 bottles of beer and I drank all of it before I was 20 years old. I haven't touched alcohol since then to the present. Jeepers, I thought I was clear. No wonder, we have a lot of conflict here. People's comprehension skills are just lacking. Indeed, I'm a flawed individual, Jojo. Nobodies' perfect... certainly not me. Thank god for that. So, you don't drink. Rigidly so. It strikes me that something very powerful about the effects of alcohol. more precisely the effects of alcoholism, must have made a huge impression on you. Why have you deliberately chosen not to touch a drop of alcohol since you were 20 years old? Did you personally witness the destructive power of alcoholism in some of the immediate care givers who were supposed to have been raising you? What happened? What did you do? More to the point, what did they do to you? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
Jed, you have it correctly.Mark Gibbs is caught up in the current pc scientific way of demanding a theory before experimental results can be accepted. It is even worse than that. Consider climate science.There the theory is preferred to the actual evidence when the two diverge.The current AR5 has a phrase saying the results maybe either within the model limits, or above them, or below them. (!) That the IPCC forecast has been falsified apparently doesn't matter. My direct experience of DoE is that they will follow policy from on high no matter what the cost.Larry Penberthy (father of all electric glass melting) and I made DoE a proposal that would save $100 billion cleaning up the radwaste at Hanford.http://people.duke.edu/~mgg6/A67402113108.pdf http://people.duke.edu/%7Emgg6/A67402113108.pdf but they refused to consider it until /after/ a new contract had been signed to do what they had previously planned.Their technical people were ordered not to talk to us until after the contract signing. Why not accept Andrea Rossi's statement. It will not be believed until working commercial units are on the market?It looks like he was right.I am puzzled by your statement that you have spoken to large investors who confirm the E-Cat works but elsewhere consider it dubious.What seems overlooked is that Rossi owes nothing to the general public but, as you say, needs to convince his major investors.He appears to have done that. The patent situation is ludicrous.I forecast years ago the lawyers stand to make as much money from the mess as the inventors do from LENR.
Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
ah ah... good professors and very strict say my (muslim) step-child... my (muslim) wife confirm , and me too... if catholic religion disappear, we have to keep the schools... in Indonesia like in france, religious schools have to enforce mixing and non-segregation except madrassa in indonesia which are too religious to allow that... noboby's perfect... 2012/12/31 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com At 10:17 PM 12/30/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: His own autobiography says that he went to muslim school in Indonesia. You can't go to muslim school unless you're muslim. Who says that? Muslims go to Christian schools all the time.
Re: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: What irks me is when skeptics do not even bother to read the papers by Bockris, Gerischer or McKubre The barrier I ran into with one of the founders of the DoE was a demand that I filter your bibliograpny down to only papers that appeared in journals of Science Citation Index. That's no small task and I had to write a few perl scripts to come close. I believe I posted the results of that to vortex-l when I first started participating in hopes that I could get some help penetrating this barrier. I mean, its not every day you get someone that was hired by Carter to found the DoE's EIA and one of the few Carter appointees retained by Reagan to offer any conditions whatsoever under which he would consider a paper reporting replication of the PF phenomenon worth his time to read. Yes, yes, yes... I know, it was my responsibility to disabuse him of his demand for such a filter, wasn't it? Too bad. Not gonna happen.
Re: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: Why speculate that he would say something stupid like that? Because I have heard it countless times from Piel, Huizenga and Many Distinguished Scientists, including several of the ones on the 2004 DoE panel, and most of the Jasons. This is a widely held point of view. That does not mean that Gibbs holds it! Look, he said right here, in this forum, that he wants to see a testable theory. He said that again, and again, and again. I pointed to the testable *claim* made by EPRI. A claim, not a theory. I pointed out that to an experimentalist, confirming that claim is as good as confirming a nuclear theory. Gibbs did not respond. I assume he is saying the same thing as I have heard from ten-thousand theorists since 1989: We will not believe this until you show us a complete nuclear theory that we agree with. I assume he is parroting that point of view. Okay, so ahead and ask Gibbs what he meant. If I am wrong, he can say so. Also because that is what Gibbs is saying when he repeatedly demands a testable theory. Had he demanded a testable theory you'd be right. It is right here!!! Here is an example: Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Sure, there's lots of interesting experiments but is there a testable theory? Maybe. The DoE may easily be in bed with the hot fusion projects, it was in 1989. So? Huizenga's book is *still* embarrassing, and is more and more visible that way. In recent years, Chu and many others have cited Huizenga and his book as proof that cold fusion does not exist. Most mainstream physicists agree with Huizenga completely, that cold fusion violates theory and it cannot possibly exist, and that all reported results are mistakes or fraud. I have heard that from HUNDREDS of leading scientists such as Chu. I am certain that is what they believe. I am also certain they have not read any papers on this subject. That is what they tell me. You may think the book is embarrassing. I think it is a hatchet job. However, Chu and others think it is the truth. But he was an old man, and, unfortunately, probably losing it. He wrote most of the book while conducting the ERAB panel investigation. It was published soon after ERAB was published. He was still at the peak of his intellectual power, and political power. He repeated the statements in the book many times, in person, and in letter to me and to others. What you saw with the Amoco situation would be how he responded when he couldn't understand what was happening. He'd flee. He understood perfectly what was happening. I am sure he did not think the results were real. I am pretty sure he thought: Another damn fake result! More nonsense to contend with! He did not say that. He refused to talk to the authors. But that is what other leading skeptics said, and I am sure he agreed. As for his statements about Miles in his book, he was posturing to make himself seem open minded. He never took those results seriously, or any of the similar helium results from Italy. He knew about those results, because he attended ICCF conferences. I think that was before the second edition of the book. He might have written about them or spoken about them any time. For that matter, he might have described the tritium from Bockris or Storms, or the excess heat results from McKubre. But he never said ONE WORD ABOUT ANY OF THAT. Not in his book, not in public, not in his letters. Never. He said only it is all bunk (to me). He did not talk about these results not because he wanted to hide the truth, or he was afraid he was wrong. Only because he was sure it was bunk, and he thought that even mentioning these results would confuse the issue and make some people imagine there might be something to cold fusion after all. He knew he was right. He was supremely confident of that. He saw it as his job to present the facts which proved he was right, and not to present any of the lies and nonsense published by McKubre and the others. That was his point of view, and he made it 100% clear to me and to many others. Steven Chu and many others have said the same thing, almost word for word. These people do not hide their opinions on this matter. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
From Ashfield: ... ... I am puzzled by your [Jed's] statement that you have spoken to large investors who confirm the E-Cat works That certainly is an intriguing statement coming from Mr. Rothwell. What's frustrating about all of this, at least from my perspective, is the fact that we had yet to see anything from Rossi that seems to be even close to be considered a commercial product. All I've seen (and read about) has been nothing more than a lot of hot air. Granted, there seems to be tantalizing evidence and lots of grandiose promises coming from Rossi. However, what is significant is that Rossi never allows his tantalizing evidence to be independently validated - that that certainly puts the kibosh on his credibility, and righty so. Maybe Rossi will finally pull a rabbit out of the hat. I sure hope so, but who the hell knows. I sure as hell don't. The only conclusion that makes any sense to me is to speculate that these unnamed investors (who presumably have confirmed the fact that there really is something to Rossi's e-Cats), are doing everything within their power to make sure that Rossi works out the flaws before potential competition catches wind. One of the best ways to help ensure that they stay in first place would be to continue to insinuate to potential competition the impression that Rossi's organization is highly flawed, or worse, fraudulent. That seems to have been easy to accomplish! ;-) Don't bother looking into the matter. Move along. move along. nothing to see here. Again, I'm left with the assumption that there must still remain serious flaws and impediments to the commercialization of Rossi's eCats. Will Rossi work out the flaws before the competition finally catches wind? It would appear that Mr. Rothwell doesn't think so. History may prove him right. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
This is incorrect, Jojo. Do you have any evidence for your assertion that President Obama is a Muslim? On Dec 30, 2012, at 10:17 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: His own autobiography says that he went to muslim school in Indonesia. You can't go to muslim school unless you're muslim. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies On what evidence do you base your assertion that President Obama is a Muslim? On Dec 29, 2012, at 9:39 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: No, I am not stating that the President is a muslim. I am stating that the Usurper is a muslim. We currently don't have a legitimate president; we have a usurper sitting on the throne. Why doesn't he just come clean? He could do this with a single 2 minute phone call to the Hawaiian authorities to open access to his vault BC. He can quickly end this controversy, establish his legitimacy, kill the Birther movement and start the healing of the nation. He can do all that in 2 minutes, yet he spends over 4 million dollars of Tax payer's money to block access to this vault BC. Why block access to such an innocuous document? WHY indeed? He won't because he can't. This is the pattern of a corrupt leader proped up by a corrupt shadow government strengthened by corrupt demonic forces. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies Are you stating that the President is Muslim? On Dec 27, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: Lomax does not understand that this Executive Order covers anything related to previous and current presidents. Anything about this current president is covered by this order. IF anyone wants to release information about Obama's BC, they have to go thru Eric Holder (the corrupt right henchman) or thru the Presidential counsel; for approval. This is the veil of corruption surrounding this usurper-in-thief and people like lomax are gving him a pass. I'm not surprised as lies are OK for Lomax as long as it helps prop up his illegitimate usurper muslim president. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 6:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies At 03:50 AM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Here is the actual Executive Order that Obama issued immediately after he took power. The Media spins this as rescinding a Bush Executive Order 13233. But in fact, it is a new Executive Order to specifically require his approval before release of any information, obstensively because of Executive Privelege. Obstentively? Took me a moment. Ostensibly. Release of any information. Sure. Any information of what type, where located, and by whom? Now, Lomax, who is lying now. Do I get my apology now? What exactly have you debunked? you blatant liar. No, no apology, unless you show that the Executive Order does what you claimed. I not only never claimed that this *particular* Exectuive Order did not exist, I linked to it and discussed it specifically. [...] Go Ahead, take you best spin shoot. Let's see what spin and lies you'll come up next. You've acknowledged all along that what you are doing is spinning. You have acknowledged that you say things that aren't true to create a dramatic image. That's spin. But I'll give you a fair chance here. You claimed that this document is an Executive Order which blocks access to Obama's vault BC. Below, I quote a bit of what I wrote, to which you are responding. I wrote, in more than one way, If he fails to apologize, or point to an actual order doing what he claimed, he is, effectively, a liar. Okay, how does this Order do that? What would cause this document to apply to birth records held by Hawaiian state officials? It's all here right in front of us, no more research should be necessary. But, also for the record, I'll say it again: There is no Executive Order that blocks public access to the vault birth certificate. That access is blocked by Hawaiian law on the privacy of records (as is true, I think, in all states). Some access to records is blocked by HIPAA, a federal law relating to the privacy of medical records, and there are other laws protecting the privacy of certain records, but no relevant Executive Order that does what Jojo claims. He lied, and he is continuing to lie. But ... his turn. THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Press Secretary For Immediate Release January 21, 2009 EXECUTIVE ORDER 13489 - - - - - - - PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and
RE: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
Steven Vincent Johnson http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=vortex-l@eskimo.comq=from:%22OrionWorks+-+Steven+Vincent+Johnson%22wrote: However, what is significant is that Rossi never allows his tantalizing evidence to be independently validated. Actually he has. The third party verification of the Hot Cat was completed a couple of weeks ago and Rossi expects the results (which he has not seen) to be published early in February. Likewise, Rossi claims his first 1 MW Hot Cat will be finished in February and the working unit made available for inspection a couple of months after it has been set up.Considering the short time since the original E-Cat this would be remarkably fast if he does it.The original 1 MW E-Cat is supposed to be sold to a customer for March delivery and may also be made available for inspection.Rossi claims that the units delivered to the military were different. In my previous post I left out that Rossi states he has provided his new partner with his IP so there is no possibility of it going to the grave with him. With so much in the pipe-line either we get solid news soon or it will look very suspicious.
Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
This is incorrect, Jojo. Do you have any evidence for your assertion that President Obama is a Muslim? On Dec 30, 2012, at 10:17 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: His own autobiography says that he went to muslim school in Indonesia. You can't go to muslim school unless you're muslim. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies On what evidence do you base your assertion that President Obama is a Muslim? On Dec 29, 2012, at 9:39 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: No, I am not stating that the President is a muslim. I am stating that the Usurper is a muslim. We currently don't have a legitimate president; we have a usurper sitting on the throne. Why doesn't he just come clean? He could do this with a single 2 minute phone call to the Hawaiian authorities to open access to his vault BC. He can quickly end this controversy, establish his legitimacy, kill the Birther movement and start the healing of the nation. He can do all that in 2 minutes, yet he spends over 4 million dollars of Tax payer's money to block access to this vault BC. Why block access to such an innocuous document? WHY indeed? He won't because he can't. This is the pattern of a corrupt leader proped up by a corrupt shadow government strengthened by corrupt demonic forces. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies Are you stating that the President is Muslim? On Dec 27, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: Lomax does not understand that this Executive Order covers anything related to previous and current presidents. Anything about this current president is covered by this order. IF anyone wants to release information about Obama's BC, they have to go thru Eric Holder (the corrupt right henchman) or thru the Presidential counsel; for approval. This is the veil of corruption surrounding this usurper-in-thief and people like lomax are gving him a pass. I'm not surprised as lies are OK for Lomax as long as it helps prop up his illegitimate usurper muslim president. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 6:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies At 03:50 AM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Here is the actual Executive Order that Obama issued immediately after he took power. The Media spins this as rescinding a Bush Executive Order 13233. But in fact, it is a new Executive Order to specifically require his approval before release of any information, obstensively because of Executive Privelege. Obstentively? Took me a moment. Ostensibly. Release of any information. Sure. Any information of what type, where located, and by whom? Now, Lomax, who is lying now. Do I get my apology now? What exactly have you debunked? you blatant liar. No, no apology, unless you show that the Executive Order does what you claimed. I not only never claimed that this *particular* Exectuive Order did not exist, I linked to it and discussed it specifically. [...] Go Ahead, take you best spin shoot. Let's see what spin and lies you'll come up next. You've acknowledged all along that what you are doing is spinning. You have acknowledged that you say things that aren't true to create a dramatic image. That's spin. But I'll give you a fair chance here. You claimed that this document is an Executive Order which blocks access to Obama's vault BC. Below, I quote a bit of what I wrote, to which you are responding. I wrote, in more than one way, If he fails to apologize, or point to an actual order doing what he claimed, he is, effectively, a liar. Okay, how does this Order do that? What would cause this document to apply to birth records held by Hawaiian state officials? It's all here right in front of us, no more research should be necessary. But, also for the record, I'll say it again: There is no Executive Order that blocks public access to the vault birth certificate. That access is blocked by Hawaiian law on the privacy of records (as is true, I think, in all states). Some access to records is blocked by HIPAA, a federal law relating to the privacy of medical records, and there are other laws protecting the privacy of certain records, but no relevant Executive Order that does what Jojo claims. He lied, and he is continuing to lie. But ... his turn. THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Press Secretary For Immediate Release January 21, 2009 EXECUTIVE ORDER 13489 - - - - - - - PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Thanks, Jojo, I appreciate your response to my query. It seems to me that you have faith that Genesis is literally accurate. How did you find your way to this faith? Was it difficult? Easy? How unshakeable is your faith? Again,thank you for your response. On Dec 30, 2012, at 11:09 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: OK, since you asked, do not call me a troll by answering this. Genesis chapter 6 is the source of this. This passage is the reason why God destroyed the Earth with the flood. 6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. The Hebrew word translated as Giants is Nephilim. The Hebrew words for Sons of God literally means sons of Elohim. In the Old Testament, only direct creations of God are referred to as Sons of God. Only Adam, Eve and Angels are direct creations of God; but Eve is not a son, so that leaves Adam and Angels. So, clearly this passage refers to fallen angels mating with human females producing giants and mighty men of renown. Men of renown means these men are known by the various histories of the region. Throughout history and in every culture - Romans, Greeks, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Sumerian, etc, there is mythology relating to gods mating with human women producing extraordinary hybrids. The Sumerians have their Annunaki. The Greeks with their pantheon of gods which the Romans adopted wholesale more or less. In these mythology, there is Hercules, half god half man with great size and strength. There is Perseus, half god son of Zeus. There is Atlas, half god, big and strong depicted as carrying the Earth on his back. These are the men that are renown. Google the video Return of the Nephilim by Chuck Missler. Chuck used be in the Defense Industry. He was an insider. In his videos, he tries to document the link between Nephilims and modern UFOs. Watch it and judge for yourself. Of course, there are also other videos when you google UFOs, Nephilim, Annunaki, NWO, illuminati, etc. Some good some crazy. Judge for yourself. There are books about this subject. I do not play video games so I do not know if there are. I'm pretty this is as this is a common theme the illuminati wants to desensitize people on. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 1:19 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Thanks. This is fascinating. What are the sources for this information? There is reason to believe that fallen angels are trying to breed with humans to create a hybrid race. The Bible called these hybrids Nephilims. They were universal during the days of Noah. They interbred with human women to give birth to giant hybrids - Hercules, Persues, Atlas etc. They interbreed with normal animal to give birth to hideous dinasaurs and loathsome creatures. What are the sources for this information, and for the rest of your statements in this email? Books? Are there any movies or video games that depict these themes? On Dec 27, 2012, at 11:12 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: OK, since you asked. Don't say I am trolling. There is reason to believe that fallen angels are trying to breed with humans to create a hybrid race. The Bible called these hybrids Nephilims. They were universal during the days of Noah. They interbred with human women to give birth to giant hybrids - Hercules, Persues, Atlas etc. They interbreed with normal animal to give birth to hideous dinasaurs and loathsome creatures. This was the primary reason why God had to wipe out the entire race of life on Earth with a global flood. Fallen angels and demons wanted to subvert the plan of God by corrupting man. If human DNA are all tainted with demonic DNA, the messiah, which has
Re: [Vo]:List integrity
That a statement is endlessly repeated does not make it true. I posted at length on the family practices of the Arabian peninsula, as they pertained to Christian, Jewish, and pantheistic communities, and to the pre-revelatory emergence of Islam, which limited some of the practices that many people today criticize. But Jojo seems not to have seen this posting, though he did say he would respond to it (and this I hope from his own knowledge rather than assertian-based pseudo-sources), for he repeats assertions that are shown in the posting to be flat-out incorrect. On Dec 31, 2012, at 2:16 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: At 10:37 PM 12/30/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Hence, in you, the corruption of islam is seen by everyone. The same corruption that justifies to the world that it is OK to fondle a 9 year old little girl BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS, just because other people are doing it. No matter how you justify it, that's CREEPY. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. What is obviously false does not become more true by being repeated over and over. Jojo actually acknowledged that this one was false, but has continued to emphasize it. Jojo is using hyperbole so calling it false is an ineffective repsonse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole Harry
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
I suppose that a large capacitor bank could let loose and so some damage, but in this case I recall that mechanical shrapnel did the damage. Most likely this was a result of the engine running at too high of a speed. Dave -Original Message- From: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Dec 31, 2012 8:57 am Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:40 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I am fairly confident that these inventors do not claim that the electrical energy recovered due to the returning piston is significant compared to the mechanical output. I haven't followed this detail up to now. Here I am way out of my depth, but consider the following: * There is probably a high-capacity capacitor bank in most models that is used in part to create an electric arc in the gas. * When Feynman pulled the plug during the demo, the engine was ok for a little while, and then Papp got nervous, and then there was an explosion and some weird liquid. * In one of the kits (Bob's? John's?), a coil has been omitted; presumably this coil when present will have the effect of recovering some electricity through inductance, whatever else it does. What if in the Feynman incident the capacitor bank was somehow maxed out and then released its magic smoke? Eric
Re: [Vo]:OT: Call For Death Of Climate Deniers
The guy obviously has a major problem to think this way. I wonder if he will be willing to accept that penalty should it be shown that global warming is natural and can be mitigated in the future by relatively simple means? Speaking of settled science Dave -Original Message- From: Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.com To: 'vortex-l@eskimo.com' vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Dec 31, 2012 10:19 am Subject: [Vo]:OT: Call For Death Of Climate Deniers http://joannenova.com.au/2012/12/death-threats-anyone-austrian-prof-global-warming-deniers-should-be-sentenced-to-death/ This ugly spirit is ruining free inquiry and science in general. Fortunately, he lacks credibility on the subject.
Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
The earlier posting on muslim schools is confused. Some Muslim schools have a curriculum that is based solely on the Qur'an. This kind of school would only attract non-Muslim students interested in the Qur'an, or in the culture of Islam. Some Muslim schools have a standard secular curriculum, and are attended mostly by Muslims, thus confusing some into calling them Muslim schools. Some Muslim schools are merely called such because they operate in a Muslim country, like Indonesia. This is like calling US public schools Christian because they operate in a predominantly Christian country. To suggest that President Obama must be a Muslim because he went to a Muslim school in Indonesia is a statement that at best is meaningless. On Dec 31, 2012, at 4:37 AM, Nigel Dyer wrote: Indeed. There is a Catholic school in Birmingham, UK, where the majority of pupils are Muslim http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/birminghams-catholic-school-where-90-of-the-pupils-231115 Nigel On 31/12/2012 04:40, Jojo Jaro wrote: Yes, Christian catholic schools are more tolerant of other faiths, but not muslims. You can not go to a muslim school like the one Obama went to unless you are a muslim. Before Lomax spins this again; may I simply ask readers to research this on their own to see which of us both is lying. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
Jed, you are describing a gentleman that has supreme confidence in his knowledge of physics and believes that there can be nothing new under the sun. I consider this the height of ignorance that many attain in their lives to their detriment. Thanks God that he was not in charge of just about every other endeavor that has advanced knowledge. Where would electronics be had someone with that outlook held the purse strings? In my experience, people with the attitude that you are suggesting are not capable of understanding new concepts since they waste most of their effort hiding their ignorance from the people around them. They dare not ask questions which might show weakness and they run from any challenge to their beliefs. What a waste of good organic material. Gibbs on the other hand should not be blamed too severely. In his case, it would be a major embarrassment to his career if he went out on a limb and declared LENR as real and later was found to be in error. He will most likely not change his position until a product is accessible and/or the main physicists acknowledge it is proven. He is acting in his best interest in this way although some of us may think it is shallow. Do you think that the investment world is frozen in a similar manner when new technologies emerge? Who is willing to be the first brave guy to take that step into the unknown and risk being labeled stupid? Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Dec 31, 2012 11:25 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: Why speculate that he would say something stupid like that? Because I have heard it countless times from Piel, Huizenga and Many Distinguished Scientists, including several of the ones on the 2004 DoE panel, and most of the Jasons. This is a widely held point of view. That does not mean that Gibbs holds it! Look, he said right here, in this forum, that he wants to see a testable theory. He said that again, and again, and again. I pointed to the testable claim made by EPRI. A claim, not a theory. I pointed out that to an experimentalist, confirming that claim is as good as confirming a nuclear theory. Gibbs did not respond. I assume he is saying the same thing as I have heard from ten-thousand theorists since 1989: We will not believe this until you show us a complete nuclear theory that we agree with. I assume he is parroting that point of view. Okay, so ahead and ask Gibbs what he meant. If I am wrong, he can say so. Also because that is what Gibbs is saying when he repeatedly demands a testable theory. Had he demanded a testable theory you'd be right. It is right here!!! Here is an example: Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Sure, there's lots of interesting experiments but is there a testable theory? Maybe. The DoE may easily be in bed with the hot fusion projects, it was in 1989. So? Huizenga's book is *still* embarrassing, and is more and more visible that way. In recent years, Chu and many others have cited Huizenga and his book as proof that cold fusion does not exist. Most mainstream physicists agree with Huizenga completely, that cold fusion violates theory and it cannot possibly exist, and that all reported results are mistakes or fraud. I have heard that from HUNDREDS of leading scientists such as Chu. I am certain that is what they believe. I am also certain they have not read any papers on this subject. That is what they tell me. You may think the book is embarrassing. I think it is a hatchet job. However, Chu and others think it is the truth. But he was an old man, and, unfortunately, probably losing it. He wrote most of the book while conducting the ERAB panel investigation. It was published soon after ERAB was published. He was still at the peak of his intellectual power, and political power. He repeated the statements in the book many times, in person, and in letter to me and to others. What you saw with the Amoco situation would be how he responded when he couldn't understand what was happening. He'd flee. He understood perfectly what was happening. I am sure he did not think the results were real. I am pretty sure he thought: Another damn fake result! More nonsense to contend with! He did not say that. He refused to talk to the authors. But that is what other leading skeptics said, and I am sure he agreed. As for his statements about Miles in his book, he was posturing to make himself seem open minded. He never took those results seriously, or any of the similar helium results from Italy. He knew about those results, because he attended ICCF conferences. I think that was before the second edition of the book. He might have written about them or spoken about them any time. For that matter, he might have
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Thanks, Jojo, I appreciate your response to my query. It seems to me that you have faith that Genesis is literally accurate. How did you find your way to this faith? Was it difficult? Easy? How unshakeable is your faith? Again,thank you for your response. On Dec 30, 2012, at 11:09 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: OK, since you asked, do not call me a troll by answering this. Genesis chapter 6 is the source of this. This passage is the reason why God destroyed the Earth with the flood. 6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. The Hebrew word translated as Giants is Nephilim. The Hebrew words for Sons of God literally means sons of Elohim. In the Old Testament, only direct creations of God are referred to as Sons of God. Only Adam, Eve and Angels are direct creations of God; but Eve is not a son, so that leaves Adam and Angels. So, clearly this passage refers to fallen angels mating with human females producing giants and mighty men of renown. Men of renown means these men are known by the various histories of the region. Throughout history and in every culture - Romans, Greeks, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Sumerian, etc, there is mythology relating to gods mating with human women producing extraordinary hybrids. The Sumerians have their Annunaki. The Greeks with their pantheon of gods which the Romans adopted wholesale more or less. In these mythology, there is Hercules, half god half man with great size and strength. There is Perseus, half god son of Zeus. There is Atlas, half god, big and strong depicted as carrying the Earth on his back. These are the men that are renown. Google the video Return of the Nephilim by Chuck Missler. Chuck used be in the Defense Industry. He was an insider. In his videos, he tries to document the link between Nephilims and modern UFOs. Watch it and judge for yourself. Of course, there are also other videos when you google UFOs, Nephilim, Annunaki, NWO, illuminati, etc. Some good some crazy. Judge for yourself. There are books about this subject. I do not play video games so I do not know if there are. I'm pretty this is as this is a common theme the illuminati wants to desensitize people on. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 1:19 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Thanks. This is fascinating. What are the sources for this information? There is reason to believe that fallen angels are trying to breed with humans to create a hybrid race. The Bible called these hybrids Nephilims. They were universal during the days of Noah. They interbred with human women to give birth to giant hybrids - Hercules, Persues, Atlas etc. They interbreed with normal animal to give birth to hideous dinasaurs and loathsome creatures. What are the sources for this information, and for the rest of your statements in this email? Books? Are there any movies or video games that depict these themes? On Dec 27, 2012, at 11:12 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: OK, since you asked. Don't say I am trolling. There is reason to believe that fallen angels are trying to breed with humans to create a hybrid race. The Bible called these hybrids Nephilims. They were universal during the days of Noah. They interbred with human women to give birth to giant hybrids - Hercules, Persues, Atlas etc. They interbreed with normal animal to give birth to hideous dinasaurs and loathsome creatures. This was the primary reason why God had to wipe out the entire race of life on Earth with a global flood. Fallen angels and demons wanted to subvert the plan of God by corrupting man. If human DNA are all tainted with demonic DNA, the messiah, which has
Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
Salut, Alain. Bonne nouvelle année. Most Americans do not fear our government. A few do, and are viewed by the rest of Americans as paranoid and living in an alternative Tea-party reality. That reality is so bizarre, and the people who advocate it as so bizarre that they do get a lot of publicity and attention. They do have a political impact, especially on the Republican party, where some republican leaders want to rid themselves of the Tea-Party members knowing that association with them will reduce the Republican party to fringe status, and other republican leaders want to embrace the Tea-Party knowing that it may be the last stronghold of the republican party. It is a fascinating trap and I am curious to see how the Republicans (who include some pretty decent and smart people) will work this out. Like people everywhere, most Americans want lower taxes and more government services. They want the government to stop telling them what to do with laws and regulations, but they at the same time want the government to stop others from doing things they disapprove of. As I said, like people everywhere. For myself, I appreciate our government greatly. By and large, it is efficient, economic, responsive, and transparent. Of course, there are many things the government does that I disagree with (especially in foreign affairs), but generally I appreciate and support our government. Generally! Laurent On Dec 31, 2012, at 10:34 AM, Alain Sepeda wrote: my wife know that school. it is a Jakarta dowtown secular state school... the country is muslim, yet there is 6 religion allowed, yet mandatory (you have to believe in one single god, with a paradise... that is the rule... whichever it is is your choice, even if like US there are political group using religion to reach power, and some increasing discrimination against minorities, nationally or locally) until recently when liberalisation inspired by humanrightists develop, the hijab (woman head scarf, which is much more sexy in indonesia than in saudi arabia) was forbidden in state school... and whatever you can say, it is clear Obama speak more like an evangelist priest... A bit shocking for a secular French, but if american love that style, it is their own freedom... Our choices since 10 years are criticized by more than 50% of the population, so we cannot give lessons... ah ah ;-) note also that what is evident from France is that US president is very weak because of the constitution, by design ... parliament rules and is republican... It is clear that US fear their government... whether it is good or not is not to be discussed... I just remind facts. 2012/12/31 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com His own autobiography says that he went to muslim school in Indonesia. You can't go to muslim school unless you're muslim. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies On what evidence do you base your assertion that President Obama is a Muslim? On Dec 29, 2012, at 9:39 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: No, I am not stating that the President is a muslim. I am stating that the Usurper is a muslim. We currently don't have a legitimate president; we have a usurper sitting on the throne. Why doesn't he just come clean? He could do this with a single 2 minute phone call to the Hawaiian authorities to open access to his vault BC. He can quickly end this controversy, establish his legitimacy, kill the Birther movement and start the healing of the nation. He can do all that in 2 minutes, yet he spends over 4 million dollars of Tax payer's money to block access to this vault BC. Why block access to such an innocuous document? WHY indeed? He won't because he can't. This is the pattern of a corrupt leader proped up by a corrupt shadow government strengthened by corrupt demonic forces. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies Are you stating that the President is Muslim? On Dec 27, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: Lomax does not understand that this Executive Order covers anything related to previous and current presidents. Anything about this current president is covered by this order. IF anyone wants to release information about Obama's BC, they have to go thru Eric Holder (the corrupt right henchman) or thru the Presidential counsel; for approval. This is the veil of corruption surrounding this usurper-in-thief and people like lomax are gving him a pass. I'm not surprised as lies are OK for Lomax as long as it helps prop up his illegitimate usurper muslim president. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd
[Vo]:new video: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine
video: PULSER Plasma Engine Core: Recovering the Papp engine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNSAXbZfnbE post: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine: There should be a Marshall Plan to support this http://coldfusionnow.org/heinz-klostermann-on-the-papp-engine-there-should-be-a-marshall-plan-to-support-this/ -- Ruby Carat r...@coldfusionnow.org mailto:r...@coldfusionnow.org Skype ruby-carat www.coldfusionnow.org http://www.coldfusionnow.org
RE: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
From ashfield: However, what is significant is that Rossi never allows his tantalizing evidence to be independently validated. Actually he has. The third party verification of the Hot Cat was completed a couple of weeks ago and Rossi expects the results (which he has not seen) to be published early in February. I hope so, but that remains to be seen. Typically in the past when Ross let the cat out of the bag. what Rossi promises versus what Rossi eventually delivers seems to end up being less convincing, particularly for those who are looking for independently verifiable proof. Likewise, Rossi claims his first 1 MW Hot Cat will be finished in February and the working unit made available for inspection a couple of months after it has been set up. Considering the short time since the original E-Cat this would be remarkably fast if he does it. Indeed, in the greater scheme of things I would consider it remarkably fast. However, it also accurate to say that these are all future claims. It seems to me that Rossi is often fond of making claims like this. It can be difficult taking many of his claims seriously. I'll I can do is hope for the best. I'm reminded of something president Reagan famously said: Trust, but verify. The original 1 MW E-Cat is supposed to be sold to a customer for March delivery and may also be made available for inspection. Rossi claims that the units delivered to the military were different. Rossi claims... Rossi claims... At present I'm far more interested in what others claim - particularly from those who have had first-hand knowledge of Rossi's alleged claims. Unfortunately, few seem to want to step up to the podium. In my previous post I left out that Rossi states he has provided his new partner with his IP so there is no possibility of it going to the grave with him. I certainly hope so. With so much in the pipe-line either we get solid news soon or it will look very suspicious. My point exactly. Hope for the best. But prepare for the worst. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 8:56 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I suppose that a large capacitor bank could let loose and so some damage, but in this case I recall that mechanical shrapnel did the damage. Most likely this was a result of the engine running at too high of a speed. Yes, when I look again, I see that it's not necessarily liquid, but a cone of silvery uniform stuff [1], which could be shrapnel. If you were to turn the piston on its side during an experiment, so that gravity does not play a role, that might control for the problem of stored energy being transferred back and forth with kinetic energy. In this case wouldn't work be done by the popper in either direction? Eric http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papparticle2.html
RE: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
The fact that many or most Americans do not fear the government is not something to celebrate. The erosion of rights under the Constitution is shocking - if most people understood or cared - and Obama has become worse than Bush. While Congress hotly debates budgets, just hours away from a fiscal cliff, they have no trouble at all passing a bill (twice) that allows for indefinite imprisonment without trial by a bipartisan majority (NDAA). Don't waste your time protesting to your elected representative, they won't bother answering ( my experience). And they easily pass a bill to search your email without a warrant - take note of the fact that no one even bats an eye that the FBI went thru tens of thousands of emails from the most prominent military leaders in the country recently. Not even their position saves them.. And most astounding of all? Take a good look at the track record of people crying for gun confiscation and note how disgusted and aggrieved they normally are in preaching that the government is corrupt and unresponsive. Like Michael Moore and his 9/11 work. The government is evil but let's give up our guns? Really? Oh, and the US now puts a higher % of its people in prison than Russia does.
Re: [Vo]:Boeing Electric Airplane- LENR
Indeed, lenr is no good for airplanes due to low power density and extreme cost of onboard power generators. Same argument goes also for fission powered airplanes, because high cost of fission reactor cannot compensate extremely cheap jet fuel. All plans for fission/LENR planes rely on assumption that the price of Jet fuel would increase, but this is silly assumption! Fuel/energy usually gets cheaper over time if we are looking longer trends. As Earth is globular, there is no need for longer flight distances than ca. 20 000 km. Therefore it is very practical to produce hydrogen using LENR or solar energy and then use hydrogen as hypersonic jet fuel. Artificial photosynthesis may produce cheap hydrogen for airplanes decades before LENR is practical. However, I think that while we are waiting for cheap hydrogen, there might be a niche for hypersonic electric jets. Right now energy density of batteries must be doubled in order to electric jet engines to be economically practical. As cost performance of batteries gets better ca. 7-10 % annually, and there are promising prototypes that might suggest doubling the energy density of lithium batteries, I would estimate that first electric jet will fly commercially in early 2020's. Main benefit with electric jets is low maintenance costs compared to jet fuel driven turbofan jet engines and ability to go supersonic cheaply. Turbofan engines cannot operate supersonic and conventional jet engines are as expensive as Concorde and afterburners are not practical. Biggest drawback is low energy density of lithium batteries and hence range is limited to few thousand kilometers. There is just no physically possible better aviation technologies than hydrogen + SABRE engine. This provides ca. mach 5.5 cruising speed at 30 km, what is good enough for near term aviation. Later in 2030's we might try to develop suborbital airplanes but this technology is of course speculative. —Jouni Ps. Happy new year! Top topic for 2013 is the revolution in transportation: new generation of aviation technology and breakthrough of electric cars. Tesla Model S was the first real electric car. Also solar electricity will be big hit of the year. There will be onset investments for large scale solar electricity production. By 2020 solar electricity is the primary energy source in sunny areas such as in Australia, Greece and Arizona. On 30.12.2012, at 21.18, Ron Kita chiralex.k...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings All, Boeing is fully aware of LENR Cold Fusion..and yet they talk about batteries: http://phys.org/news/2012-12-sugar-volt-boeing-vision-hybrid.html My bet is that their electric plane never sees batteries-except for a temporary back-up. Respectfully, Ron Kita, Chiralex
Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 9:10 AM, de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.comwrote: Most Americans do *not* fear our government. I think Alain has in mind the system of checks and balances in US government -- the veto of the President, the Supreme Court striking down legislation, etc. By and large, US government is quite decentralized, especially in comparison to the French government. This has the effect of raising barriers to one group's making drastic changes for which there is no consensus (see the recent constitution story in Egypt) at the cost of making it difficult to get things done when agreement can't be found. Many countries do not have governments that are as easily paralyzed as that of the US. Advocates for this kind of governmental decentralization are worried about tyranny. Eric
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
Eric, you bring up a concept that has been on my mind this morning. I was trying to come up with any way that energy could be delivered by the Papp while leaving the gas cool. The only idea that remotely made sense was if there were two power strokes with the design. The first one is traditional where the excess gas pressure pushes the piston outward. The second might be achieved if the gas then proceeded to suck the piston backwards toward the bottom of the cylinder. If I recall some of the original steam engines used suction for their power strokes. For this idea to have any chance, there must be a load attached to the piston rod that drives a flywheel. The first push makes the flywheel accelerate in one direction. The suck occurs at a time that also contributes to the motion of the flywheel. A system of that sort would have two power strokes which has the potential to make it powerful due to the number of energy hits per second. We need to do further thinking about the thermodynamics of such a thing as I expect that a flaw will become evident soon. Such as, why would we expect the active gas to return to near its original temperature? If the process is totally adiabatic then perhaps that is possible. This implies that all of the LENR energy is fed to the flywheel and the gas is acting like the spring in my earlier analogy. It is obviously going to take more thought before I am willing to believe that this proposed process is possible. My gut feeling is that it is not going to work. Dave -Original Message- From: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Dec 31, 2012 12:51 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 8:56 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I suppose that a large capacitor bank could let loose and so some damage, but in this case I recall that mechanical shrapnel did the damage. Most likely this was a result of the engine running at too high of a speed. Yes, when I look again, I see that it's not necessarily liquid, but a cone of silvery uniform stuff [1], which could be shrapnel. If you were to turn the piston on its side during an experiment, so that gravity does not play a role, that might control for the problem of stored energy being transferred back and forth with kinetic energy. In this case wouldn't work be done by the popper in either direction? Eric http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papparticle2.html
Re: [Vo]:new video: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine
8:54 in is a slow motion shot showing the 1lb projectile travelling about 2 meters in about 3 frames. He also claims that the effective energy delivered to the plasma is about 600J. sqrt(600J/(2*lbm))?m/s sqrt((600 * joule) / (2 * poundm)) ? meter / second = 25.717452 m/s 30frames/sec;3 frames/2m?m/s ([30 * frames] / second) * ([3 * frames] / [2 * meter])^-1 ? meter / second = 20 m/s So it appears he has an 80% efficient electric cannon. On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Ruby r...@hush.com wrote: video: PULSER Plasma Engine Core: Recovering the Papp engine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNSAXbZfnbE post: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine: There should be a Marshall Plan to support this http://coldfusionnow.org/heinz-klostermann-on-the-papp-engine-there-should-be-a-marshall-plan-to-support-this/ -- Ruby Carat r...@coldfusionnow.org Skype ruby-carat www.coldfusionnow.org
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
If you remember one of the Rohners talked about the coil sucking the gas
and ballon in under vacuum. Sounds entropic and maybe endothermic, at
least at times
On Monday, December 31, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
Eric, you bring up a concept that has been on my mind this morning. I was
trying to come up with any way that energy could be delivered by the Papp
while leaving the gas cool. The only idea that remotely made sense was if
there were two power strokes with the design. The first one is traditional
where the excess gas pressure pushes the piston outward. The second might
be achieved if the gas then proceeded to suck the piston backwards toward
the bottom of the cylinder. If I recall some of the original steam engines
used suction for their power strokes.
For this idea to have any chance, there must be a load attached to the
piston rod that drives a flywheel. The first push makes the flywheel
accelerate in one direction. The suck occurs at a time that also
contributes to the motion of the flywheel.
A system of that sort would have two power strokes which has the
potential to make it powerful due to the number of energy hits per second.
We need to do further thinking about the thermodynamics of such a thing as
I expect that a flaw will become evident soon. Such as, why would we
expect the active gas to return to near its original temperature? If the
process is totally adiabatic then perhaps that is possible. This implies
that all of the LENR energy is fed to the flywheel and the gas is acting
like the spring in my earlier analogy.
It is obviously going to take more thought before I am willing to
believe that this proposed process is possible. My gut feeling is that it
is not going to work.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'eric.wal...@gmail.com');
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'vortex-l@eskimo.com');
Sent: Mon, Dec 31, 2012 12:51 pm
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 8:56 AM, David Roberson
dlrober...@aol.comjavascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'dlrober...@aol.com');
wrote:
I suppose that a large capacitor bank could let loose and so some
damage, but in this case I recall that mechanical shrapnel did the damage.
Most likely this was a result of the engine running at too high of a speed.
Yes, when I look again, I see that it's not necessarily liquid, but a
cone of silvery uniform stuff [1], which could be shrapnel.
If you were to turn the piston on its side during an experiment, so that
gravity does not play a role, that might control for the problem of stored
energy being transferred back and forth with kinetic energy. In this case
wouldn't work be done by the popper in either direction?
Eric
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papparticle2.html
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
On Dec 31, 2012, at 10:40, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I was trying to come up with any way that energy could be delivered by the Papp while leaving the gas cool. It occurs to me now that we may have made a simple problem into a difficult one. Our initial challenge is to find out whether the Papp mechanism is overunity by an obvious amount; ie, the effect is not a threshold one. We can start out with a simple popper hooked up to a flywheel like the one seen in Puppy Dog's video, where there is an arm that moves the wheel in only one direction. Now attach a chain to the wheel and use it to draw a sled with known weight across a surface of known friction with the sled. Energy in would be the integral over time of the power used to drive the system. Energy out would be a function of the distance the sled moved. Heating due to friction would be ignored to obtain a pessimistic lower bound. A two cylinder engine could be used in place of the popper if such an engine is available. Eric
RE: [Vo]:new video: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine
Interesting observation. If you watch the white box/cannon assembly (not the cardboard white box 'target'), you would think that the recoil would cause it to move backward, in the opposite direction as the projectile (piston); in fact, the assembly moves in the SAME direction as the projectile. The only explanation that I can see is that the assembly is already placed against an immovable barrier which prevents the recoil from moving it to the right, and that force pushes back on the assembly moving it in the same direction as the projectile. -Mark From: James Bowery [mailto:jabow...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 10:54 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:new video: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine 8:54 in is a slow motion shot showing the 1lb projectile travelling about 2 meters in about 3 frames. He also claims that the effective energy delivered to the plasma is about 600J. sqrt(600J/(2*lbm))?m/s sqrt((600 * joule) / (2 * poundm)) ? meter / second = 25.717452 m/s 30frames/sec;3 frames/2m?m/s ([30 * frames] / second) * ([3 * frames] / [2 * meter])^-1 ? meter / second = 20 m/s So it appears he has an 80% efficient electric cannon. On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Ruby r...@hush.com wrote: video: PULSER Plasma Engine Core: Recovering the Papp engine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNSAXbZfnbE post: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine: There should be a Marshall Plan to support this http://coldfusionnow.org/heinz-klostermann-on-the-papp-engine-there-should- be-a-marshall-plan-to-support-this/ http://coldfusionnow.org/heinz-klostermann-on-the-papp-engine-there-should-b e-a-marshall-plan-to-support-this/ -- Ruby Carat r...@coldfusionnow.org Skype ruby-carat www.coldfusionnow.org
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
I am not sure I understand what you are suggesting. Does the piston return to its beginning point with each cycle? If so, at least a complete loop is covered which is the requirement. Dave -Original Message- From: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Dec 31, 2012 2:44 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water On Dec 31, 2012, at 10:40, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I was trying to come up with any way that energy could be delivered by the Papp while leaving the gas cool. It occurs to me now that we may have made a simple problem into a difficult one. Our initial challenge is to find out whether the Papp mechanism is overunity by an obvious amount; ie, the effect is not a threshold one. We can start out with a simple popper hooked up to a flywheel like the one seen in Puppy Dog's video, where there is an arm that moves the wheel in only one direction. Now attach a chain to the wheel and use it to draw a sled with known weight across a surface of known friction with the sled. Energy in would be the integral over time of the power used to drive the system. Energy out would be a function of the distance the sled moved. Heating due to friction would be ignored to obtain a pessimistic lower bound. A two cylinder engine could be used in place of the popper if such an engine is available. Eric
Re: [Vo]:new video: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine
You have a good explanation for the lack of visible reaction away from the projectile. The law of conservation of momentum ensures that the initial movement of the barrel must be in the opposite direction. The amount of movement might be small if the barrel kinetic energy is absorbed by a barrier that is stiff, and that must be what we have. Energy can then be returned to the barrel from the barrier by spring action propelling it in the same direction as the piston. How often do claims of the type revealed within this video arise? You would think that by now we would realize most are nothing but fancy electric motors of an unusual design. I will be very surprised to see one that actually delivers over unity performance throughout a complete cycle when the total input is accurately determined. The inventor stated that a significant amount of energy still remained within the capacitor bank after a power pulse. Since energy stored within a capacitor is proportional to the square of the voltage I would not be so kind. 160^2/500^2=.1 Only 10% remains which is not a large proportion. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Dec 31, 2012 2:49 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:new video: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine Interesting observation… If you watch the white box/cannon assembly (not the cardboard white box ‘target’), you would think that the recoil would cause it to move backward, in the opposite direction as the projectile (piston); in fact, the assembly moves in the SAME direction as the projectile. The only explanation that I can see is that the assembly is already placed against an immovable barrier which prevents the recoil from moving it to the right, and that force pushes back on the assembly moving it in the same direction as the projectile… -Mark From: James Bowery [mailto:jabow...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 10:54 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:new video: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine 8:54 in is a slow motion shot showing the 1lb projectile travelling about 2 meters in about 3 frames. He also claims that the effective energy delivered to the plasma is about 600J. sqrt(600J/(2*lbm))?m/s sqrt((600 * joule) / (2 * poundm)) ? meter / second = 25.717452 m/s 30frames/sec;3 frames/2m?m/s ([30 * frames] / second) * ([3 * frames] / [2 * meter])^-1 ? meter / second = 20 m/s So it appears he has an 80% efficient electric cannon. On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Ruby r...@hush.com wrote: video: PULSER Plasma Engine Core: Recovering the Papp engine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNSAXbZfnbE post: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine: There should be a Marshall Plan to support this http://coldfusionnow.org/heinz-klostermann-on-the-papp-engine-there-should-be-a-marshall-plan-to-support-this/ -- Ruby Carat r...@coldfusionnow.org Skype ruby-carat www.coldfusionnow.org
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
Sounds like that would work Eric. My bet is on less than unity gain. I feel like the guy Jed has been discussing at this point. I hope that my mind remains open to a greater extent. Dave -Original Message- From: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Dec 31, 2012 3:01 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water On Dec 31, 2012, at 11:55, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I am not sure I understand what you are suggesting. Does the piston return to its beginning point with each cycle? If so, at least a complete loop is covered which is the requirement. The piston would return to its original position many times; in the case of the lone popper, it would be upright, so that gravity pulls the piston down. We would be looking for an average over many cycles rather than attempt to extrapolate from a single cycle. Eric
[Vo]:off topic (do we really want to sent these people to the stars?)
I dropped off my mother at a local grocery store in Western Pa, I made these observations within the next 40 minutes. A man going into the store spat on the ground near the entrance. Another man came out of the store and spat a wad of snuff in the same local. A small child coming into the store ran through this excrement. Two men coming in. One was drunk with a cup, probably alcohol, the other drank down the first parties cup before going into the store. He did, however throw the cup in a thrash receptacle. A young woman coming in threw her lit cigarette butt on the ground near the entrance. The butt sat there smoking. Man in the parking lot spat in front of my car. A man came in and parked right in front of the entrance and blocked it. There were plenty of empty spots in the parking lot. Welcome to dirt bag america. I wonder what it is like in other parts of the world. Frank Z
Re: [Vo]:Boeing Electric Airplane- LENR
Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote: Indeed, lenr is no good for airplanes due to low power density and extreme cost of onboard power generators. I do not think so. Cold fusion power density has sometimes been as high as a fission reactor core, which is high enough for an aircraft engine. Fission reactor airplane engines were developed in the 1950s. See chapter 18 of my book, and also: http://www.aviation-history.com/articles/nuke-american.htm Furthermore, you can make the cold fusion engine heavy and large, because the mass of fuel is so small. All plans for fission/LENR planes rely on assumption that the price of Jet fuel would increase, but this is silly assumption! Fuel/energy usually gets cheaper over time if we are looking longer trends. Cold fusion will be orders of magnitude cheaper than jet fuel. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:off topic (do we really want to sent these people to the stars?)
Consider though that inspiration is very vital to uplifting humanity. Nothing is more inspirational in my books than reaching literally for the stars. A bigger picture might be just what they are lacking. On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 10:04 AM, fznidar...@aol.com wrote: I dropped off my mother at a local grocery store in Western Pa, I made these observations within the next 40 minutes. A man going into the store spat on the ground near the entrance. Another man came out of the store and spat a wad of snuff in the same local. A small child coming into the store ran through this excrement. Two men coming in. One was drunk with a cup, probably alcohol, the other drank down the first parties cup before going into the store. He did, however throw the cup in a thrash receptacle. A young woman coming in threw her lit cigarette butt on the ground near the entrance. The butt sat there smoking. Man in the parking lot spat in front of my car. A man came in and parked right in front of the entrance and blocked it. There were plenty of empty spots in the parking lot. Welcome to dirt bag america. I wonder what it is like in other parts of the world. Frank Z
[Vo]:Why use water vapor and chlorine in the Papp gas mix?
Why use water vapor and chlorine in the Papp gas mix? It may all come down to negative ion formation. The process of plasmoid formation starts out during the formation of the spark discharge. In turn, spark discharge starts with corona formation. A corona is a process by which a current flows from an electrode with a high potential into a neutral fluid, usually air, by ionizing that fluid so as to create a region of plasma around the electrode. The ions generated eventually pass charge to nearby areas of lower potential, or recombine to form neutral gas molecules. In the case of the Papp reaction, the corona is negative because Papp uses electronegative gases in his gas envelope. Papp also uses sharply pointed electrodes. Ideally, to produce a negative corona, the cathode should be sharply pointed and the anode should be blunt. A negative corona is a non-uniform corona, varying according to the topology of the curved conductor. It often starts out on the sharpest edge of the cathode, the sharpness of the cathode determines the strength of the ionizing field. The form of negative coronas is a result of its source of secondary avalanche electrons (see below). It appears a little larger than the corresponding positive corona, as electrons drift out of the ionizing region, and so the plasma continues some distance beyond it. The total number of electrons, and electron density is much greater than in the corresponding positive corona. However, they are of a predominantly lower energy, owing to being in a region of lower potential-gradient. The increased electron density will increase the reaction rate, the lower energy of the electrons will mean that reactions which require a higher electron energy may take place at a lower rate. A further feature of the structure of negative coronas is that as the electrons drift outwards, they encounter neutral molecules and, with electronegative molecules (such as oxygen and water vapor), combine to produce negative ions. These negative ions are then attracted to the positive uncurbed electrode, completing the 'circuit'. A negative corona can be divided into three radial areas, around the sharp electrode. In the inner area, high-energy electrons inelastically collide with neutral atoms and cause avalanches, while outer electrons (usually of a lower energy) combine with neutral atoms to produce negative ions The Papp gases are all highly electronegative. Electronegative molecules (such as oxygen(3.44) and water vapor, hydrogen(2.20), Kripton(3.00),Xenon(2.60), Fluorine (3.98), and Cloriene(3.16)) will add in the formation of the spark discharge. See Electro negativity of the elements in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronegativity On the most basic level, electronegativity is determined by factors like the nuclear charge (the more protons an atom has, the more pull it will have on negative electrons) and the number/location of other electrons present in the atomic shells (the more electrons an atom has, the farther from the nucleus the valence electrons will be, and as a result the less positive charge they will experience—both because of their increased distance from the nucleus, and because the other electrons in the lower energy core orbitals will act to shield the valence electrons from the positively charged nucleus). The opposite of electronegativity is electropositivity: a measure of an element's ability to donate electrons. As the spark formation process begins, the electric potential difference increases sharply between the electrodes, the electronegative gas molecules will be drawn to the cathode and repelled from the anode. In a negative corona that forms just before the spark discharged is triggered, the electrons drift outwards from the sharply pointed cathode toward the anode; these electrons encounter a dense concentration of neutral electronegative gas molecules and, with electronegative molecules, combine to produce negative ions. In other words, these positively charge molecules will gorge themselves on electrons and become negative ions. As the spark formation process advances, these negative ions are then attracted to the positive uncurbed anode, completing the ‘plasma circuit'. This negative corona is divided into three radial areas, around the sharp electrode. In the inner area, high-energy electrons inelastically collide with electronegative neutral atoms and cause electron avalanches, while outer electrons (usually of a lower energy) combine with neutral atoms to produce negative ions. In the intermediate region, electrons combine to form negative ions, but typically have insufficient energy to cause avalanche ionization. Papp could have used water vapor and chlorine as a way to ionize the spark gap during pre-spark discharge preparation. Because many of these electronegative elements are corrosive, he may have decided that his cylinder would last longer if he confined his design to noble gases. However, a non-corrosive cylinder
Re: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Jed, you are describing a gentleman that has supreme confidence in his knowledge of physics and believes that there can be nothing new under the sun. That is why they put him in charge of the ERAB panel. The DoE is run by people like him. They are pretty good at incremental improvements to existing technology, but useless for anything else. That is why the plasma fusion project has gone on for 60 years without making any progress. We are no closer to plasma fusion power reactors than we were in 1950. Gibbs on the other hand should not be blamed too severely. It is probably not his fault. He does not understand the difference between a claim and a theory. He does not understand what EPRI meant, or why Gerischer was so sure cold fusion is real. I expect he has talked to theoretical physicists and they have told him we will not believe this until we see a nuclear theory that we agree is true. They have said that to me countless times. Needless to say, that is a violation of the scientific method, but these people never learned the scientific method. In his case, it would be a major embarrassment to his career if he went out on a limb and declared LENR as real and later was found to be in error. I think he should report the facts about cold fusion and leave it at that. But he would get in trouble for doing that. Do you think that the investment world is frozen in a similar manner when new technologies emerge? Only with regard to energy, and only because the DoE has tremendous influence. It has stifled research in the U.S., Japan and Europe. There is no Federal Department of Computing. If there was one, we would still be using vacuum tube computers. Uncle Sam did invent the Internet, but that was an incremental improvement using existing technology, which is the kind of thing Federal researchers excel at doing. NASA's mismanagement of the Hubble went to surrealistic extremes. Read the book Hubble Wars for details. All because of academic politics. Who is willing to be the first brave guy to take that step into the unknown and risk being labeled stupid? Stupid is the least they will call you. Any scientist or science journalist who gets involved with cold fusion will be called the chicken nugget and fries guy at McDonald's. It is career suicide to talk about cold fusion. You are allowed to write the kind of slop Gibbs, Lemonick, Sci. Am. and others have published: 5 parts rumor, 5 parts technical error, 1 part fact. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:new video: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine
Thanks Ruby; A great video from Ruby Carat. Russ used air in on demo and got poor results. Hydrogen was better and helium was the best. Heinz Klostermann uses air because his cannon system cannot be made gas tight. A linier motor can be made completely gas tight; as tight as a compressed gas tank. The lack of a pop when the projectile leaves the tube tells me that the system does not use gas pressure to apply energy to the projectile. I believe that a plasmoid hitting the face of the projectile is the means of energy transfer between the spark and the projectile. Cheers:Axil On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Ruby r...@hush.com wrote: video: PULSER Plasma Engine Core: Recovering the Papp engine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNSAXbZfnbE post: Heinz Klostermann on the Papp engine: There should be a Marshall Plan to support this http://coldfusionnow.org/heinz-klostermann-on-the-papp-engine-there-should-be-a-marshall-plan-to-support-this/ -- Ruby Carat r...@coldfusionnow.org Skype ruby-carat www.coldfusionnow.org
Re: [Vo]:List integrity
Sorry I am confused. What is considered false here? A nine year old is barely out diapers or that muslims do not disapprove of sexual relations with a nine year old? Harry On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 11:49 AM, de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com wrote: That a statement is endlessly repeated does not make it true. I posted at length on the family practices of the Arabian peninsula, as they pertained to Christian, Jewish, and pantheistic communities, and to the pre-revelatory emergence of Islam, which limited some of the practices that many people today criticize. But Jojo seems not to have seen this posting, though he did say he would respond to it (and this I hope from his own knowledge rather than assertian-based pseudo-sources), for he repeats assertions that are shown in the posting to be flat-out incorrect. On Dec 31, 2012, at 2:16 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: At 10:37 PM 12/30/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Hence, in you, the corruption of islam is seen by everyone. The same corruption that justifies to the world that it is OK to fondle a 9 year old little girl BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS, just because other people are doing it. No matter how you justify it, that's CREEPY. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. What is obviously false does not become more true by being repeated over and over. Jojo actually acknowledged that this one was false, but has continued to emphasize it. Jojo is using hyperbole so calling it false is an ineffective repsonse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole Harry
Re: [Vo]:List integrity
Below, Jojo promised to allow me the last word. This is it. It really doesn't matter, though, because I'm done. anyway I already shut down response in other threads. There are issues raised in these exchanges that can be of value, but they are also basically off-topic. The relevance I could assert is that they reveal a certain type of thinking that is not all that uncommon, it is merely extremely visible with Jojo. Jojo is demonstrating a hazard that we are all subject to. To avoid it requires care and a willingness to self-examine. At 03:46 AM 12/31/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: OK , Lomax, you are an expert in deception and twist and spin. I bow to your skill and go away. All Jojo would have to do is acknowledge errors or misinterpretations on his part. My skill is only hard work. It takes time to research the issues raised. It takes time to write something coherent. And, yes, it takes time, though much less time, to read what's found. What trolls do, mostly, is waste time. Is Jojo a troll? A troll is someone who has, as a motive, insulting or enraging others. Motive can be difficult to discern, but, observing Jojo since his participation in Vortex started to go south, yes, Jojo intends to outrage. This is connected, for him, with responding to insults, i.e., to a belief that one must respond in kind to insults, and it is also connected to correcting propaganda, except that Jojo has, many times, *introduced* highly controversial topics, connected with politics and religion, when he either thought he was being insulted, or he saw his *beliefs* as being insulted. He introduces them, obviously, because he wants to insult back someone, so he picks a topic that he thinks will outrage them. And he's not precise, the topic is a shotgun blast, with massive collateral damage. That the damage *usually* does not appear is only because the readership of Vortex is relatively small, and most people just shrug stuff off. He knew and expected that his use of Vortex to promote his beliefs (or correct the beliefs of others) would be disruptive. He referred to it many times. But he took nearly every excuse to do it. I documented how this behavior first showed, previously, http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg74768.html The entire list can document this time that I am letting Lomax have the last word. I will no longer post unless asked a specific question or insulted whether directly or in reference. Please let this escalating round of insults end. I'm tired. The exchange will end as he says, if he keeps his word. It's not merely a round of insults. That's what *Jojo* does. Above, I describe what a troll is, and I provide some level of argument that could lead to a conclusion of trolling *in effect*. Is that an insult? Jojo has consistently claimed that his comments about Obama and supporters, about Muhammad and his wife Ayesha, about what a billion people worship as God, calling Allah a Moon god, about people who are concerned about global warming, about Christians other than a narrow group, about people who accept the evolution of species, and about many participants on this list, are just the truth, and therefore not insults. I research topics that come up, and report the results. I don't research irrelevant topics and then dump the results here. On list-irrelevant topics, I don't start discussions here as new threads, other than in error or to pull an irrelevant topic out of a thread where it's disruptive. I have, many times, asked for errors to be corrected. In the absence of that correction, and where what I've said isn't obviously mere opinion, where it was based on cited evidence, I must assume that what I've written is either true or at least reasonable. Yet Jojo has, many times, called it lies. It's fairly clear that his reading comprehension is poor, he doesn't understand what sources mean. He's mistaken comment that is not about him at all, as being about him, a clear example came up yesterday with Axil. He calls my posts lies because he does not like what conclusions may be drawn from them, and he assumes conclusions and states them as if they are what I've said. Frequently. But my posts are just a collection of facts and thought. Facts are not lies, they are just what's so. If a source conveys an untruth, and the source is cited as saying what is untrue, it is not a lie to state what is in the source, if it's attributed, because *it's in the source.* Science begins with this kind of detachment from opinion and judgment. I do not always distinguish my thoughts as such; but my thoughts are only my reactions. If reported as my reactions, they are, again, not lies. They are just my reactions, and, again, that's just what's so. My reactions and thoughts are not truth, nor are they lies. They are just reactions. This is so for everyone who is not God. It's easy for anyone with the training to recognize the
Re: [Vo]:off topic (do we really want to sent these people to the stars?)
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 4:04 PM, fznidar...@aol.com wrote: Welcome to dirt bag america. I wonder what it is like in other parts of the world. http://zeenews.india.com/blog/india-s-open-toilet-crisis_322.html
Re: [Vo]:off topic (do we really want to sent these people to the stars?)
Holy crap Sent from my iPhone On Dec 31, 2012, at 6:07 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 4:04 PM, fznidar...@aol.com wrote: Welcome to dirt bag america. I wonder what it is like in other parts of the world. http://zeenews.india.com/blog/india-s-open-toilet-crisis_322.html
Re: [Vo]:off topic (do we really want to sent these people to the stars?)
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:09 PM, ChemE cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Holy crap Only if it's Shiva's.
Re: [Vo]:OT: Call For Death Of Climate Deniers
At 10:18 AM 12/31/2012, Zell, Chris wrote: http://joannenova.com.au/2012/12/death-threats-anyone-austrian-prof-global-warming-deniers-should-be-sentenced-to-death/ This ugly spirit is ruining free inquiry and science in general. Fortunately, he lacks credibility on the subject. Before spreading stuff like this, taken from a blog, I suggest *actually checking it*. The man in question, who was simply exploring an idea on his own blog, quickly apologised, yesterday. I found the source by following a link from Joanne Nova's blog at http://joannenova.com.au/2012/12/death-threats-anyone-austrian-prof-global-warming-deniers-should-be-sentenced-to-death/ and from there to his More comment about his opposition to the death penalty. I understand what he was saying. Without raising the argument, *suppose* that global warming will happen, and it's caused by us, and it will cause millions of deaths. Maybe a billion. If so, the global warming denial, the argument would go, could cause a billion deaths, and if that's so, the professor suggested that this would be worthy of the death penalty. Now, the man is a strong supporter of Amnesty International. He's *firmly* opposed to the death penalty. I read his thinking as simply saying that this is a very serious matter. Backing up, we, as a society need to be able to *think*. The thought process requires taking up ideas and *holding* them for a time. Just because an idea, if accepted, could mean that a billion people would die, does *not* mean that someone should be taken out and shot because they have the idea and express it! It's also possible that if a huge amount of effort it put into avoiding a non-existent hazard, if that's what global warming is, resources would be wasted that could save a billion lives, eventually. To make genuine choices, we need to be able to think regardless of political correctness -- or any sort of fixed assumptions. We need our full collective intelligence. That requires freedom of thought and, generally, expression. In all directions. But *action* is another thing. Action to harm our ability to think clearly, collectively, would be *oppressive*, and that is where serious response could become appropriate. We have, for very good reason, developed strong traditions of intellectual freedom, and we need to guard against a constant tendency to repress minority opinion. My sense is that minority opinion is *usually* wrong, but the exceptions can be doozies! We need minority opinion, it will keep the majority on its toes, and ... sometimes the minority is actually right. From the professor's web site, http://www.uni-graz.at/richard.parncutt/climatechange_apology.html Global warming I wish to apologize publicly to all those who were offended by texts that were previously posted at this address. I made claims that were incorrect and comparisons that were completely inappropriate, which I deeply regret. I alone am entirely responsible for the content of those texts, which I hereby withdraw in their entirety. I would also like to thank all those who took the time and trouble to share their thoughts in emails. In October 2012, I wrote the following on this page: I have always been opposed to the death penalty in all cases, and I have always supported the clear and consistent stand of Amnesty International on this issue. The death penalty is barbaric, racist, expensive, and is often applied by mistake. I wish to confirm that this is indeed my opinion. More generally, all human beings in all places and at all times have equal rights. I have been a member and financial supporter of Amnesty International for at least 18 years, and I admire and support their universal, altruistic approach to defending human rights. The following extract from the text was intended to apply to the entire text: Please note that I am not directly suggesting that the threat of execution be carried out. I am simply presenting a logical argument. I am neither a politician nor a lawyer. I am just thinking aloud about an important problem. Richard Parncutt, 27-30 December 2012
Re: [Vo]:off topic (do we really want to sent these people to the stars?)
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:09 PM, ChemE cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Holy crap Only if it's Shiva's. If I were Hindu should I be offended or just laugh? harry
Re: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
At 11:10 AM 12/31/2012, James Bowery wrote: On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Jed Rothwell mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.comjedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: What irks me is when skeptics do not even bother to read the papers by Bockris, Gerischer or McKubre The barrier I ran into with one of the founders of the DoE was a demand that I filter your bibliograpny down to only papers that appeared in journals of Science Citation Index. That's no small task and I had to write a few perl scripts to come close. I believe I posted the results of that to vortex-l when I first started participating in hopes that I could get some help penetrating this barrier. I mean, its not every day you get someone that was hired by Carter to found the DoE's EIA and one of the few Carter appointees retained by Reagan to offer any conditions whatsoever under which he would consider a paper reporting replication of the PF phenomenon worth his time to read. Yes, yes, yes... I know, it was my responsibility to disabuse him of his demand for such a filter, wasn't it? Too bad. Not gonna happen. Ah, Mr. Bowery, you are jogging my memory The fellow would really only need to read three papers, and the first two are the DoE reviews, both of which recommended research to resolve open issues, and the third is the Storms paper in Naturwissenschaften, Status of cold fusion (2010). That's a peer-reviewed review of the field, and, sure, it cites much material that is not in the Science Citation index, but we are dealing here with a field where for twenty years most research, no matter how solid, had great difficulty getting published in the standard journals. But, of course, there *are* many papers so published. Too many, in fact, unless someone really wants to dive in fully. Rather, what someone in the DoE would need to know is that there is basic research that has not been done because it really isn't needed any more, for those working on making the effect more reliable. Reliable is a practical question and has *nothing* to do with the science. The most obvious of these would be research to nail down the reported heat/helium ratio from the Fleischmann-Pons Heat Effect. It's quite well enough established that researchers in the field routinely assume that helium is generated from palladium deuteride when heat is being generated, but verifying the correlation happens to be a useful activity that could serve both skeptics and believers. The claim is often made that cold fusion is pathological science, and that it's like other pathological science, when measurements are made more accurately and carefully, the anomalous results disappear. Okay, what happens if the heat/helium ratio is measured more carefully? (It's a difficult measurement, fairly expensive to do, but it's been done by a dozen or so research groups around the world, and not only is there no contrary evidence, some of the original negative replications that found no heat, also checked for helium, and did not find it. That is a *confirmation* of the heat/helium ratio. No heat, no helium.) (Heat/helium is a *reliable experiment*. To measure the ratio requires running a series of FP cells and not only doing the standard calorimetry on them, looking for anomalous heat, but also capturing the helium, which is actually the hard part. Heat is routinely measured with accuracy far beyond noise, but helium takes special care. Nevertheless, correlation uses the dead cells as controls. That is why heat/helium actually cuts through the reliability problem, because it confirms *both* the heat and helium measurements. And that the work done so far has approached the deuterium fusion to helium value doesn't hurt! John Huizenga was the co-chair of the 1989 DoE review, and he wrote in about 1993, in the second edition of his book on cold fusion about the Miles finding of heat/helium correlation that, if confirmed, it would solve a major mystery of cold fusion, the ash. Well? Was Miles confirmed? Storms certainly claims so, and that is a reasonable claim, but ... if it's not true, then confirming Miles would be long, long overdue. And if it is true, getting a more accurate measure could help discriminate between alternate theories as to mechanism. It is time that the DoE follow its own recommendations. They were unanimous in 2004. So why is anyone second-guessing them? *If* your friend, Mr. Bowery, is in doubt about the reality of cold fusion, and because of the vast possible implications from the reality of cold fusion, and if he now represents private interests, funding careful research with this could be crucial as a matter of due diligence. This work should be bypassed only by those already convinced that cold fusion is real. Most cold fusion approaches are famously unreliable, and making them reliable is probably going to take a lot more research; without understanding the mechanism (fusion does not tell us
Re: [Vo]:off topic (do we really want to sent these people to the stars?)
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:23 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:09 PM, ChemE cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Holy crap Only if it's Shiva's. If I were Hindu should I be offended or just laugh? harry Russell Peters is a funny guy. This is mostly ethnic humor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2W8aGgmn1A Harry
Re: [Vo]: the Papp engine
Regarding document: http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P4.pdf This type of experiment can be explained by the formation of a water based plasmoid which accelerates through the action of zero point energy and electrostatic attraction of an ambient electronegative water vapor atmosphere beyond the boundary of the circulating negative ion current around the outer perimeter of the plasmoid. See my post titled “Why use water vapor and chlorine in the Papp gas mix?” for some background theory. Of note: this paper shows the formula that defines the energy of the upward moving piston as E = mgh = 9.8mh Where E is the energy in joules, g is gravity at 9.8 meters/second*2 m is the mass in kilograms and h is the height in meters. Where: 1 newton – 1 kg/meter/second*2 A joules is equal to the energy expended (or work done) in applying a force of one newton through a distance of one meter (1 newton meter or N•m) = 1 kg•m2/s2 Dimensional analysis is then J (joules) = kg•m2/s2 = mgh = ((kilograms) (9.8)( (meters)/(seconds)*exp2) (meters) Cheers:Axil On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: ** http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P4.pdf Intermolecular energy, dudes. Could be O2, N2 --- or water vapor. Graneau did the math and the test results and got overunity.
RE: [Vo]: the Papp engine
RE: underlying physical mechanism in Papp's device. Perhaps it's as simple as the volume changes that occur in piezoceramics under an applied voltage. only that its occurring in a gas where individual atoms/molecules are free to orient completely with the applied E-field resulting in maximum displacement; unlike in condensed matter where the alignment, and thus displacement, is restricted due to chemical bonding. -Mark Iverson From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 4:27 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: the Papp engine Regarding document: http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P4.pdf This type of experiment can be explained by the formation of a water based plasmoid which accelerates through the action of zero point energy and electrostatic attraction of an ambient electronegative water vapor atmosphere beyond the boundary of the circulating negative ion current around the outer perimeter of the plasmoid. See my post titled Why use water vapor and chlorine in the Papp gas mix? for some background theory. Of note: this paper shows the formula that defines the energy of the upward moving piston as E = mgh = 9.8mh Where E is the energy in joules, g is gravity at 9.8 meters/second*2 m is the mass in kilograms and h is the height in meters. Where: 1 newton - 1 kg/meter/second*2 A joules is equal to the energy expended (or work done) in applying a force of one newton through a distance of one meter (1 newton meter or N.m) = 1 kg.m2/s2 Dimensional analysis is then J (joules) = kg.m2/s2 = mgh = ((kilograms) (9.8)( (meters)/(seconds)*exp2) (meters) Cheers:Axil On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P4.pdf Intermolecular energy, dudes. Could be O2, N2 --- or water vapor. Graneau did the math and the test results and got overunity.
Re: [Vo]: the Papp engine
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 4:47 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote: RE: underlying physical mechanism in Papp’s device… ** ** Perhaps it’s as simple as the volume changes that occur in piezoceramics under an applied voltage… only that its occurring in a gas where individual atoms/molecules are free to orient completely with the applied E-field resulting in maximum displacement; unlike in condensed matter where the alignment, and thus displacement, is restricted due to chemical bonding… I wouldn't be surprised if this is something mundane. If the mechanism is known physics, as Heinz Klostermann says in Ruby's video, I do not see how it would be overunity (unless one brings out the zero point field or something similar). Eric
Re: [Vo]: the Papp engine
Like other areas of LENR, the strength of the reaction is based on the details of the design. I the Papp reaction, the strength of the plasmoid can be relatively small when produced in air, but stronger when more reactive electronegative gases are used in the reaction. In keeping with other LENR terminology, one can call plasmoids produced in air a Papp reaction plasmoid. A plasmoid developed in helium as a Papp+ plasmoid reaction and a plasmoid developed in a noble gas mix together with chlorine and water vapor as a Papp++ reaction. These reactions differ in strength in ascending order based on the exact chemistry and proportionality of the electronegative gas mix. Cheers:axil On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 4:47 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote: RE: underlying physical mechanism in Papp’s device… ** ** Perhaps it’s as simple as the volume changes that occur in piezoceramics under an applied voltage… only that its occurring in a gas where individual atoms/molecules are free to orient completely with the applied E-field resulting in maximum displacement; unlike in condensed matter where the alignment, and thus displacement, is restricted due to chemical bonding… I wouldn't be surprised if this is something mundane. If the mechanism is known physics, as Heinz Klostermann says in Ruby's video, I do not see how it would be overunity (unless one brings out the zero point field or something similar). Eric
Re: [Vo]: the Papp engine
Plasmoid sounds as goofy as a gremlin...
How about WIPE:
weakly interacting particle energetic
If they are massive like an orbiting hurricane particle we will call them
WIPE OUT
On Monday, December 31, 2012, Axil Axil wrote:
Like other areas of LENR, the strength of the reaction is based on the
details of the design.
I the Papp reaction, the strength of the plasmoid can be relatively small
when produced in air, but stronger when more reactive electronegative
gases are used in the reaction.
In keeping with other LENR terminology, one can call plasmoids produced in
air a Papp reaction plasmoid.
A plasmoid developed in helium as a Papp+ plasmoid reaction and a plasmoid
developed in a noble gas mix together with chlorine and water vapor as a
Papp++ reaction.
These reactions differ in strength in ascending order based on the exact
chemistry and proportionality of the electronegative gas mix.
Cheers:axil
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Eric Walker
eric.wal...@gmail.comjavascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'eric.wal...@gmail.com');
wrote:
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 4:47 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint
zeropo...@charter.netjavascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'zeropo...@charter.net');
wrote:
RE: underlying physical mechanism in Papp’s device…
** **
Perhaps it’s as simple as the volume changes that occur in piezoceramics
under an applied voltage… only that its occurring in a gas where individual
atoms/molecules are free to orient completely with the applied E-field
resulting in maximum displacement; unlike in condensed matter where the
alignment, and thus displacement, is restricted due to chemical bonding…
I wouldn't be surprised if this is something mundane. If the mechanism
is known physics, as Heinz Klostermann says in Ruby's video, I do not
see how it would be overunity (unless one brings out the zero point field
or something similar).
Eric
Re: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
At 11:25 AM 12/31/2012, Jed Rothwell wrote: Look, he said right here, in this forum, that he wants to see a testable theory. Jed, I must have missed that. Where did he say that? Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Mark Gibbs mailto:mgi...@gibbs.commgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Sure, there's lots of interesting experiments but is there a testable theory? You are not seeing the forest for the trees, Jed. had made a statement about the general way that cold fusion was viewed. This quoted his original comment: What did Peter originally ask? when will enter LENR such lists as [Greatest Inventions: 2012 and 1913 Editions]? My answer was When there is a testable theory or a demonstrably practical device. I wasn't asserting that LENR doesn't exist, I was answering Peter's question. Gibbs was *incorrect*. Testable theory will not lead to LENR entering such lists, not directly. What would do it is a demonstrably practical device? You went off on him like he was the Devil of Pseudoskepticism Incarnate. Gibbs doesn't know -- or didn't know -- that there already testable theories, and, more than that, theories that have been tested, but this, for him, was really beside the point. The real point, for him, would be a practical device, and theory is merely an idea that he has might lead to that. Yes, he's not thought this all the way through. He will. Why not? I'l tell you why he might not. If he finds that people who are knowledgeable in the field treat him as the enemy. Read *all* of what he writes, Jed, not just the parts that push your buttons. Gibbs has written: In the case of cold fusion, phenomena have been observed that are believed to be the result of a novel physical process. No one has been able to explain what causes the phenomena and no one has been able to produce a device that is useful that uses whatever the phenomena is. Almost true. We know what causes the heat. Deuterium is being converted to helium, and that's confirmed by the ratio found. It is *highly* unlikely that this ratio could be coming from anything else that that conversion, which is called fusion. What is *not* known is the mechanis, the specific conditions that cause it and the specific pathway followed. There are theories attempting to explain the mechanism, but none are as yet adequate. That's all. But you have consistently argued that cold fusion *will* have a world-changing payoff ... you're not in it just for the science, you're in it for the payoff. You could agree with this or not. Gibbs is interested in the payoff. I'm into this for the science. They are not unrelated! It is possible that the payoff could arrive before the science, but not necessarily probable. Jed, you have an optimism that technology can solve any problem. Maybe. Maybe not. Science is not about making that assumption, it's about testing theories, and Engineering is the about taking what is known -- as to theory or measured results -- and applying this to make devices practical. I think you may be right, Jed, but you must recognize that it's an optimistic view. It is not impossible that the nature of the mechanism is such that it's *inherently* unstable and unreliable. Bad luck, that would be, but not impossible. Do you propose to ignore the effect and reject the claims Nope. And I haven't ignored the phenomena. Indeed, I admit that there appears to be evidence of something remarkable. I just want to find out what's real and what's fake. Jed, do you want to be part of the solution or part of the problem? Gibbs is asking for help. How about helping him? He wants to find out what is real and what is fake. There is no such thing as a free lunch. But we could start with what is real. Finding out what is fake can be much more difficult. What's real is cold fusion itself, and most clearly the LENR effect that is the most solidly established is anomalous heat from palladium deuteride, accompanied with correlated helium production. It is preposterously unlikely that further research will reveal this as artifact. Mark wants to know about practical devices. Nothing on the palladium deuteride front is yet truly a practical device, though some devices might be scalable. Until they are stable, scaling up would be *hazardous.* Mark might want to look at the Nanor, Mitchell Swartz's device. Not Ready For Home Depot, and not any time soon. Practical devices are being claimed with nickel-hydrogen. None of this has yet been confirmed in any reliable way. But if anything is going to happen quickly, that might be where it will happen. It's worth watching, but there are obvious reasons to be *quite* skeptical. That's where it stands. There are promising research lines being pursued. There are signs that the ice floes blocking funding are breaking up. If cold fusion had been funded as recommended in the first DoE review, we could be twenty years ahead of where we are. Science by Politics is a
Re: [Vo]:off topic (do we really want to sent these people to the stars?)
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:23 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:09 PM, ChemE cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Holy crap Only if it's Shiva's. If I were Hindu should I be offended or just laugh? Would you not consider Shiva holy? Is so, it is academic.
Re: [Vo]:(OT) epidemic and endemic
At 01:16 PM 12/29/2012, James Bowery wrote: From the preamble to the DoE's 1989 cold fusion review. Ordinarily, new scientific discoveries are claimed to be consistent and reproducible; as a result, if the experiments are not complicated, the discovery can usually be confirmed or disproved in a few months. The claims of cold fusion, however, are unusual in that even the strongest proponents of cold fusion assert that the experiments, for unknown reasons, are not consistent and reproducible at the present time. However, even a single short but valid cold fusion period would be revolutionary. The theory tested was the standard interpretation of physics which states that it should be impossible for nuclear reactions to occur in systems such as those created by PF. This interpretation is testable. It was tested. It was falsified. Dr. Norman Ramsey was co-chair of the DoE's cold fusion review panel. He was was the only person on the the 1989 Department of Energy cold fusion review panel to voice a dissenting opinion. He was also the only Nobel laureate. Ramsey insisted on the inclusion of this preamble to the DoE panel's report as an alternative to his resignation from the panel. As Jed points out, the ERAB Panel was likely convened as a cold fusion killer. When Pons and Fleischmann announced, all hell broke loose. Huge sums were being invested, routinely, in hot fusion research (and buckets of cash are still being poured down that rathole). The administration wanted the issue resolved, and they wanted it resolved *fast*. So they formed the panel, and gave it an *impossible* task, to review the claims and judge them, before normal scientific process had a chance to catch up. Pons and Fleischmann had been working for five years in secrecy. And they still had a process that often failed to show anything. To come up with a judgment of the entire field within a short time was utterly impossible. The unknown reasons mentioned became known within a few years, the conditions associated with heat were *largely* identified, such that it can confidently be stated, now, exactly why the famous early replications failed. They were doomed to failure, and that was largely due to haste. The DoE had shifted discretionary funding into a crash confirmation program, not well-planned and inadequately executed. But if Jed is right and the purpose was to kill cold fusion, it worked quite well. They could say, We tried, but nobody could replicate it. In fact, before they finished their report, replications started to come in, but ... Jed is right, those were ignored. Miles had reported negative results at first, and they cited Miles. Then Miles started seeing positive results, and phoned the Panel. They did not return his phone call. This is all history, and there are a number of excellent books about it. Beaudette, Excess Heat, Why Cold Fusion Prevailed, is probably the best, but there is also Simon, Undead Science. Simon is a sociologist of science who studied the history of cold fusion. In fact, as of a few years ago, there were 153 reports of excess heat in these experiments, published in peer-reviewed journals. While in 1989-1990, negative reports outnumbered positive ones, the balance shifted, as I recall, positive reports -- as judged by the skeptical electrochemist, Dieter Britz, outnumbered negative ones. The extreme skeptical position disappeared from the journals sometime around the 2004 DoE report -- that almost tipped toward cold fusion. Storms' paper, Status of cold fusion (2010) (Naturwissenschaften) represents a milestone. NW is Springer-Verlag's flagship multidisciplinary journal. It's been publishing for about a century. Einstein was published in it. And the article wasn't titled Status of LENR. Storms came right out and called it Cold fusion. Because it's fusion, get over it Practical? That is *entirely* a different question. Maybe. Probably, even, but do not hold your breath.
Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
I looked at the Papp cannon video again. At 3:00 in, Papp is filling the cannon from one of the flasks. It has a sizable amount of clear liquid at the bottom of that flask. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2tuk31pS2Mfeature=player_embedded Is that liquid clorinated water is see? Happy New Year: Axil On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: ** Hasn't Prof. Graneau identified arc explosions in water as overunity? That a turbine should be engineered to take advantage of the effect as free energy? Papp did mention water vapor in his engine patent, if I recall correctly. The Russians did a lot of work on the Electrohydraulic effect back in the '70's that was utterly ignored, as well.
Re: [Vo]:(OT) epidemic and endemic
At 01:49 PM 12/29/2012, James Bowery wrote: On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Mark Gibbs mailto:mgi...@gibbs.commgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Let's see if I'm understanding this correctly: The theory was that nuclear reactions cannot occur in a system such as PF's. This theory was falsified which means that nuclear reactions can (and did) occur. Correct? If it is correct, then my original statement stands: There is no theory yet that explains what is called cold fusion. Close. It is the most widely-accepted interpretation of currently accepted physical theory that was falsified. The theory itself is subject to many interpretations, otherwise known as conjectures in more rigorous fields such as mathematics. The conjecture Nuclear reactions cannot occur in systems such as PF's. is no more a product of theory than is the conjecture Nuclear reactions can occur in systems such as PF's. So it is not the theory that has been falsified -- because as an axiomatic system there is no proven theorem of modern physics which asserts Nuclear reactions cannot occur in systems such as PF's. One can, of course, posit any number of arbitrary axioms and then call the hodge-podge a theory in which one of the axioms is trivially proven true because it is axiomatic. This appears to have been the approach to science taken by folks who receive the vast majority of funding for science and technology. Context here should be more revealed. The fusion cross section (rate, effectively) for standard deuterium fusion, caused when two deuterium nuclei collide, can be calculated -- quite accurately -- for a plasma, where the rate at which nuclei interact is known. The distances between nuclei in condensed matter (the solid state) are enormous, compared to the size of the nuclei. It seemed reasonable that fusion rate could be calculated for deuterium dissolved in palladium, by assuming that only two deuterium nuclei would iteract at a time. It's a 2-body problem, and the math is relatively simply. Generally speaking, making that approximation was thought to be adequate, and the approximation predicted that, even though the density and effective pressure of deuterium in palladium could be enormous, it was not enough to raise fusion rates to a measureable level. That's what Pons and Fleischmann knew when they began their work. Their work was not energy research. They were not looking for an energy panacea, or free energy. They were doing basic scientific research, to test the assumptions being made about the application of quantum mechanics to condensed matter. They thought that what they would probably find was nothing. They were not naive, as the physicists often portrayed them. And then their apparatus melted down, and they had no chemical explanation for it. And they were chemists, world-class. They clearly did not understand what they had found. They believed that it was a reaction taking place in the lattice. For lots of reasons, that's pretty unlikely. It is a surface reaction. At least usually. We don't know all the possibilities. Because they thought it was a bulk reaction, they expected to find helium in the bulk. It wasn't found. That's one of the experimental facts that deposited a layer of egg on their faces. Helium is produced as a rare branch from normal hot fusion, and most people thought that cold fusion must be hot fusion taking place somehow. But it didn't really make sense. If one got over the enormous energies necessary to trigger hot fusion and managed to catalze it cold -- and there is a known method of doing that -- for there to be enough of a reaction taking place to account for the heat that was being observed, the neutron radiation would have been deadly. But a little helium would be produced, and with it, a quite energetic gamma ray. No gammas were seen like that. However, Preparata predicted that helium would be found to be the ash. Miles was following Preparata's theory. So, Mark, here we had a confirmation of theory. Does that mean that Preparata's theory was true. Not necessarily! There is a whole lot more that would have to happen. Helium is, in fact, found, but only in two places; evolved in the gas, roughly half, and trapped in the lattice, near the surface. When the original testing had been done on Pons-Fleischmann cells, they had removed the outer layer of the cathodes, to eliminate absorbed helium from the air! In any case, there are plenty of confirmed theories of cold fusion. It's just that there is no *complete* theory. There are theories than can allow a researcher to be confident that in a series of cells, they will see some with excess heat. There is a very important theory, that the anomalous heat in an FPHE experiment is produced by the conversion of deuterium to helium, with no other major products. That theory, then, allows certain prodictions to be made. From the heat, one can predict how much helium
RE: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
At 11:28 AM 12/31/2012, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: From Ashfield: ... ... I am puzzled by your [Jed's] statement that you have spoken to large investors who confirm the E-Cat works That certainly is an intriguing statement coming from Mr. Rothwell. Jed has said things like this many times. It's obvious that there are people convinced by Rossi, but what it means that they confirm that Rossi's device works is unknown. What did they actually observe? Jed may know, but this is ultimatey hearsay. It may be enough to convince Jed, because he knows whom he is talking about, and their reliability and caution, or, what would be more important *what they actually observed*. What we also know is that it is possibe for a highly knowledgeable observer to see a Rossi demonstration, and to walk away convinced that the thing is real, and yet the demonstration was no, on review, conclusive. Not only were certain reasonable possibilities overlooked, it seems likely, from evidence we have, that those possiblities were actually happening. I.e., there was overflow water, not just steam. (But we can't be sure.) Whats frustrating about all of this, at least from my perspective, is the fact that we had yet to see anything from Rossi that seems to be even close to be considered a commercial product. All Ive seen (and read about) has been nothing more than a lot of hot air. Granted, there seems to be tantalizing evidence and lots of grandiose promises coming from Rossi. However, what is significant is that Rossi never allows his tantalizing evidence to be independently validated that that certainly puts the kibosh on his credibility, and righty so. Maybe Rossi will finally pull a rabbit out of the hat. I sure hope so, but who the hell knows. I sure as hell dont. Right. We don't know. Rossi promised the moon. It was obviously flamboyant and extravagant. Why a megawatt power plent? Why make it so big? Rossi could sell investigational devices, unapproved for general use, like hotcakes, if they would just do what he's claimed he could do. The standard explanation, Jed makes it, is he's crazy. However, crazy doesn't increase my confidence! Crazy people will sometimes lie and cheat. It is possible to arrange truly convincing demonstrations, if the inventor can control the conditions and doesn't mind a little fraud. It's all in a good cause, after all. We'll have the real thing by next month, so it won't matter if we fudge a little this time. Real inventors can think like that, and it isn't necessarily illegal! Depends on what *investors* actually see. But if he's crazy, there goes all restraint against defrauding investors! The only conclusion that makes any sense to me is to speculate that these unnamed investors (who presumably have confirmed the fact that there really is something to Rossis e-Cats), are doing everything within their power to make sure that Rossi works out the flaws before potential competition catches wind. One of the best ways to help ensure that they stay in first place would be to continue to insinuate to potential competition the impression that Rossis organization is highly flawed, or worse, fraudulent. That seems to have been easy to accomplish! ;-) Dont bother looking into the matter. Move along move along nothing to see here. Yeah, we've figured that one out. And I don't see a way to distinguish the difference between a fake Rossi con and a real one. There is one way to deal with it. Make it dangerous. Vigorously puruse alternate research. Rossi has no patent rights on secrets. If his patent requires a magic sauce, it's dead. Again, Im left with the assumption that there must still remain serious flaws and impediments to the commercialization of Rossis eCats. Will Rossi work out the flaws before the competition finally catches wind? It would appear that Mr. Rothwell doesnt think so. History may prove him right. My crystal ball is here somewhere, I know it! I really need to clean this place up!
Re: [Vo]:(OT) epidemic and endemic
“Obviously, if it is not a nuclear reaction (there are other possibilities besides fusion).” It could be accelerated alpha radiation from a partial lowering of the coulomb barrier. Alpha radiation is just doubly ionized helium. We can distinguish this helium production from fusion by that produced by alpha radiation if we also observe transmutation of a heavy element into a lighter one. Cheers: Axil On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 01:49 PM 12/29/2012, James Bowery wrote: On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Mark Gibbs mailto:mgi...@gibbs.com mgib**b...@gibbs.com mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Let's see if I'm understanding this correctly: The theory was that nuclear reactions cannot occur in a system such as PF's. This theory was falsified which means that nuclear reactions can (and did) occur. Correct? If it is correct, then my original statement stands: There is no theory yet that explains what is called cold fusion. Close. It is the most widely-accepted interpretation of currently accepted physical theory that was falsified. The theory itself is subject to many interpretations, otherwise known as conjectures in more rigorous fields such as mathematics. The conjecture Nuclear reactions cannot occur in systems such as PF's. is no more a product of theory than is the conjecture Nuclear reactions can occur in systems such as PF's. So it is not the theory that has been falsified -- because as an axiomatic system there is no proven theorem of modern physics which asserts Nuclear reactions cannot occur in systems such as PF's. One can, of course, posit any number of arbitrary axioms and then call the hodge-podge a theory in which one of the axioms is trivially proven true because it is axiomatic. This appears to have been the approach to science taken by folks who receive the vast majority of funding for science and technology. Context here should be more revealed. The fusion cross section (rate, effectively) for standard deuterium fusion, caused when two deuterium nuclei collide, can be calculated -- quite accurately -- for a plasma, where the rate at which nuclei interact is known. The distances between nuclei in condensed matter (the solid state) are enormous, compared to the size of the nuclei. It seemed reasonable that fusion rate could be calculated for deuterium dissolved in palladium, by assuming that only two deuterium nuclei would iteract at a time. It's a 2-body problem, and the math is relatively simply. Generally speaking, making that approximation was thought to be adequate, and the approximation predicted that, even though the density and effective pressure of deuterium in palladium could be enormous, it was not enough to raise fusion rates to a measureable level. That's what Pons and Fleischmann knew when they began their work. Their work was not energy research. They were not looking for an energy panacea, or free energy. They were doing basic scientific research, to test the assumptions being made about the application of quantum mechanics to condensed matter. They thought that what they would probably find was nothing. They were not naive, as the physicists often portrayed them. And then their apparatus melted down, and they had no chemical explanation for it. And they were chemists, world-class. They clearly did not understand what they had found. They believed that it was a reaction taking place in the lattice. For lots of reasons, that's pretty unlikely. It is a surface reaction. At least usually. We don't know all the possibilities. Because they thought it was a bulk reaction, they expected to find helium in the bulk. It wasn't found. That's one of the experimental facts that deposited a layer of egg on their faces. Helium is produced as a rare branch from normal hot fusion, and most people thought that cold fusion must be hot fusion taking place somehow. But it didn't really make sense. If one got over the enormous energies necessary to trigger hot fusion and managed to catalze it cold -- and there is a known method of doing that -- for there to be enough of a reaction taking place to account for the heat that was being observed, the neutron radiation would have been deadly. But a little helium would be produced, and with it, a quite energetic gamma ray. No gammas were seen like that. However, Preparata predicted that helium would be found to be the ash. Miles was following Preparata's theory. So, Mark, here we had a confirmation of theory. Does that mean that Preparata's theory was true. Not necessarily! There is a whole lot more that would have to happen. Helium is, in fact, found, but only in two places; evolved in the gas, roughly half, and trapped in the lattice, near the surface. When the original testing had been done on Pons-Fleischmann cells, they had removed the outer layer of the cathodes, to eliminate absorbed helium from the air! In
RE: [Vo]:Gibbs does not understand that physics are empirical
At 11:48 AM 12/31/2012, a.ashfield wrote: http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=vortex-l@eskimo.comq=from:%22OrionWorks+-+Steven+Vincent+Johnson%22Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: However, what is significant is that Rossi never allows his tantalizing evidence to be independently validated. Actually he has. The third party verification of the Hot Cat was completed a couple of weeks ago and Rossi expects the results (which he has not seen) to be published early in February. No, Ashfield, he hasn't. He has announced that he will. He says that it was completed. He says that they will be published. I know it's too much to ask, this is Vortex, but I'll ask anyway. IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK THAT REPORTS SHOW FACT INSTEAD OF OPINION? There! I feel much better, nothing like a little shouting for the soul. Now, where were we? Likewise, Rossi claims his first 1 MW Hot Cat will be finished in February and the working unit made available for inspection a couple of months after it has been set up. Considering the short time since the original E-Cat this would be remarkably fast if he does it. The original 1 MW E-Cat is supposed to be sold to a customer for March delivery and may also be made available for inspection. Rossi claims that the units delivered to the military were different. Claims. I feel much better now. In my previous post I left out that Rossi states he has provided his new partner with his IP so there is no possibility of it going to the grave with him. States. You are getting good at this, Ashfield. With so much in the pipe-line either we get solid news soon or it will look very suspicious. Oh dear. Let's see, we've been seeing that and saying that for almost two years now. Tomorrow, it will look suspicious. It *already* looks suspicious as hell. So it might be more accurate, to say something like, If pigs fly, we'll have solid news. Flying pigs, solid news falling from the sky. Who is going to clean up? But maybe, someday, pigs will fly. First class or coach?
Re: [Vo]:Boeing Electric Airplane- LENR
At 04:27 PM 12/31/2012, Jed Rothwell wrote: Fission reactor airplane engines were developed in the 1950s. See chapter 18 of my book, and also: http://www.aviation-history.com/articles/nuke-american.htmhttp://www.aviation-history.com/articles/nuke-american.htm Half a billion dollars. What were they thinking? Furthermore, you can make the cold fusion engine heavy and large, because the mass of fuel is so small. All plans for fission/LENR planes rely on assumption that the price of Jet fuel would increase, but this is silly assumption! Fuel/energy usually gets cheaper over time if we are looking longer trends. Cold fusion will be orders of magnitude cheaper than jet fuel. Well, depends on the jet fuel and the cold fusion technique. I'd not care to bet on which way we'd go. CF -- or any energy technology -- can be used to make hydrogen, which burns totally cleanly. What's the problem being solved here? The nuclear aircraft used a reactor for a very hot process, heating air, basically. Cold fusion may not run at temperatures like that. In any case, the question is how the reactor converts heat to aircraft motion. It might be simpler to make hydrogen as fuel, by electrolysis, leaving the apparatus for that on the ground. Or not. I assume we'll figure it out if and when we know more.
Re: [Vo]:off topic (do we really want to sent these people to the stars?)
At 06:23 PM 12/31/2012, Harry Veeder wrote: On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:09 PM, ChemE cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Holy crap Only if it's Shiva's. If I were Hindu should I be offended or just laugh? If you were Hindu, I'd suggest laughing. I have a whole book about certain rather extreme practices among the god-intoxicated. We will not go there, here. Laughing, however, is good for the soul, if you aren't laughing *at* someone else. Unless, of course, it's *really funny.* Laughing at myself, that's fantastic!
Re: [Vo]:List integrity
LOL LOL LOL At least one person is seeing thru the fog of spin and deception put up by Lomax. My job is done and is an unqualified success. Jojo PS. I have proven both statements to be true. A'isha was indeed a little girl BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS as evidenced by her preoccupation with dolls. Which adult woman who is emotionally mature would bring dolls to her wedding. Of course, Lomax spins this saying that this is just like a Doll collector bringing dolls to her new home. But, honest and objective people know that that is not the case. She brought her dolls because she was still playing with it. Second, Lomax have proven it to everybody that muslims do indeed approve of sexual relations with a 9 year old. This is shocking to me cause I truly expected Lomax (being a moderate westernized muslim), to oppose and condemn muhammed's retrograde action. Yet, to my shock and amazement, he actually defended and tried to justify it. - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 6:31 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:List integrity Sorry I am confused. What is considered false here? A nine year old is barely out diapers or that muslims do not disapprove of sexual relations with a nine year old? Harry On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 11:49 AM, de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com wrote: That a statement is endlessly repeated does not make it true. I posted at length on the family practices of the Arabian peninsula, as they pertained to Christian, Jewish, and pantheistic communities, and to the pre-revelatory emergence of Islam, which limited some of the practices that many people today criticize. But Jojo seems not to have seen this posting, though he did say he would respond to it (and this I hope from his own knowledge rather than assertian-based pseudo-sources), for he repeats assertions that are shown in the posting to be flat-out incorrect. On Dec 31, 2012, at 2:16 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: At 10:37 PM 12/30/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Hence, in you, the corruption of islam is seen by everyone. The same corruption that justifies to the world that it is OK to fondle a 9 year old little girl BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS, just because other people are doing it. No matter how you justify it, that's CREEPY. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. What is obviously false does not become more true by being repeated over and over. Jojo actually acknowledged that this one was false, but has continued to emphasize it. Jojo is using hyperbole so calling it false is an ineffective repsonse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole Harry
Re: [Vo]:List integrity
I believe I've responded to it my friend, just not directly to you. My response to you was the same response to Lomax. My response is repeated below: Just because the practice of sexual relations with 9 year old little girls was common, widespread and accepted in the Arabian peninsula during the time of muhammed does not mean that the practice is not CREEPY. Hindus have corrected this same practice and stopped having sexual relations with little girls several hundred years prior to muhammed's time. The Hindus did it, and yet a progressive prophet like muhammed did not stop this retrograde practice. My friend, just because your neighbors do it, does not mean you have to do it. Nor that it justify your actions. Molesting 9 year old little girls is just CREEPY, abhorrent and wrong, whatever the time period, or whatever everyone else is doing. Jojo PS. Note that this response is not a violation of my promise to stop insulting. Note that this is not an insult, just true facts. And this is also a post directed to me. I said I promised to stop posting unless there are insults or question directed to me. This is a question directed to me. - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:List integrity That a statement is endlessly repeated does not make it true. I posted at length on the family practices of the Arabian peninsula, as they pertained to Christian, Jewish, and pantheistic communities, and to the pre-revelatory emergence of Islam, which limited some of the practices that many people today criticize. But Jojo seems not to have seen this posting, though he did say he would respond to it (and this I hope from his own knowledge rather than assertian-based pseudo-sources), for he repeats assertions that are shown in the posting to be flat-out incorrect. On Dec 31, 2012, at 2:16 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: At 10:37 PM 12/30/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Hence, in you, the corruption of islam is seen by everyone. The same corruption that justifies to the world that it is OK to fondle a 9 year old little girl BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS, just because other people are doing it. No matter how you justify it, that's CREEPY. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. BARELY OUT OF DIAPERS. What is obviously false does not become more true by being repeated over and over. Jojo actually acknowledged that this one was false, but has continued to emphasize it. Jojo is using hyperbole so calling it false is an ineffective repsonse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole Harry
Re: [Vo]:List integrity
No my friend, no family members or caregivers were alcoholics. 10 for fishing effort though. No, I did not drink alcohol when I was younger because I was allergic to it. Since, I never acquired this bad habit when I was younger, I never thought of acquiring it now. Besides, after my conversion, I now find no redeeming value or pleasure in drinking beer. I hate the taste and it's deleterious effects on the body and my health. Drunkeness is a cause of many sins and problems in one's life. I have even limitted alcohol consumption of those people who work for me in my farm. They don't know it yet, but I have just done them a great favor that will benefit them for the rest of their lives. Jojo PS. I consider this insult to be your last word that I said I would allow. Please refrain from further insults. Note, that I have not insulted you in this response, so you do indeed have the last insult. - Original Message - From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 11:36 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:List integrity I went digging through my Junk eMail folder to find what I was sure would be a response from Mr.Jaro. Mr. Jaro replied: And the provocations and insults continue. Since you are clearly incapable of conprehending simple English prose. I will spell it out for you. I drank a total of about 5 bottles of beer and I drank all of it before I was 20 years old. I haven't touched alcohol since then to the present. Jeepers, I thought I was clear. No wonder, we have a lot of conflict here. People's comprehension skills are just lacking. Indeed, I'm a flawed individual, Jojo. Nobodies' perfect... certainly not me. Thank god for that. So, you don't drink. Rigidly so. It strikes me that something very powerful about the effects of alcohol. more precisely the effects of alcoholism, must have made a huge impression on you. Why have you deliberately chosen not to touch a drop of alcohol since you were 20 years old? Did you personally witness the destructive power of alcoholism in some of the immediate care givers who were supposed to have been raising you? What happened? What did you do? More to the point, what did they do to you? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
Other than what he wrote in his autobiography, no. But his autobiography is a revealing work into his psyche. He mentioned that the muslim call to prayer was the most beautiful sound he has heard. High praise from a supposed Christian. Beautiful in that the music or melody is beautiful, but beautiful in the sense of worship it inspires. I can tell you now that a true Christian will NOT find a call to prayer to a moon god beaustiful and inspiring. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 12:39 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies This is incorrect, Jojo. Do you have any evidence for your assertion that President Obama is a Muslim? On Dec 30, 2012, at 10:17 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: His own autobiography says that he went to muslim school in Indonesia. You can't go to muslim school unless you're muslim. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies On what evidence do you base your assertion that President Obama is a Muslim? On Dec 29, 2012, at 9:39 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: No, I am not stating that the President is a muslim. I am stating that the Usurper is a muslim. We currently don't have a legitimate president; we have a usurper sitting on the throne. Why doesn't he just come clean? He could do this with a single 2 minute phone call to the Hawaiian authorities to open access to his vault BC. He can quickly end this controversy, establish his legitimacy, kill the Birther movement and start the healing of the nation. He can do all that in 2 minutes, yet he spends over 4 million dollars of Tax payer's money to block access to this vault BC. Why block access to such an innocuous document? WHY indeed? He won't because he can't. This is the pattern of a corrupt leader proped up by a corrupt shadow government strengthened by corrupt demonic forces. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies Are you stating that the President is Muslim? On Dec 27, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: Lomax does not understand that this Executive Order covers anything related to previous and current presidents. Anything about this current president is covered by this order. IF anyone wants to release information about Obama's BC, they have to go thru Eric Holder (the corrupt right henchman) or thru the Presidential counsel; for approval. This is the veil of corruption surrounding this usurper-in-thief and people like lomax are gving him a pass. I'm not surprised as lies are OK for Lomax as long as it helps prop up his illegitimate usurper muslim president. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 6:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies At 03:50 AM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Here is the actual Executive Order that Obama issued immediately after he took power. The Media spins this as rescinding a Bush Executive Order 13233. But in fact, it is a new Executive Order to specifically require his approval before release of any information, obstensively because of Executive Privelege. Obstentively? Took me a moment. Ostensibly. Release of any information. Sure. Any information of what type, where located, and by whom? Now, Lomax, who is lying now. Do I get my apology now? What exactly have you debunked? you blatant liar. No, no apology, unless you show that the Executive Order does what you claimed. I not only never claimed that this *particular* Exectuive Order did not exist, I linked to it and discussed it specifically. [...] Go Ahead, take you best spin shoot. Let's see what spin and lies you'll come up next. You've acknowledged all along that what you are doing is spinning. You have acknowledged that you say things that aren't true to create a dramatic image. That's spin. But I'll give you a fair chance here. You claimed that this document is an Executive Order which blocks access to Obama's vault BC. Below, I quote a bit of what I wrote, to which you are responding. I wrote, in more than one way, If he fails to apologize, or point to an actual order doing what he claimed, he is, effectively, a liar. Okay, how does this Order do that? What would cause this document to apply to birth records held by Hawaiian state officials? It's all here right in front of us, no more research should be necessary. But, also for the record, I'll say it again: There is no Executive Order that blocks public access to the vault birth certificate. That access is blocked by Hawaiian law on the
Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
While what you are saying about Indonesian schools may be true today - I am not knowledgeable about the current school system in Indonesia, so I will not debate that. While that may be true, it surely wasn't true in the 70's when Obama went there. Records show he was registered in that school as a muslim. One more thing, he was adopted by an Indonesian muslim. If he was adopted to be an Indonesian, he would have automatically lost his U.S. citizenship and gained Indonesian citizenship and automatically became a muslim. In Indonesia, you gain the religion of your adoptive father. Indonesia does not have and never had a Dual Citizenship program with the US. Which means that he would have had to reacquire his US citizenship when he reached 18. He had to do something to gain back his US citizenship. Which automatically made him a naturalized US citizen, not a Natural-Born US citizen required by our constitution. One of my cousins was in the same boat and he was born about the same time as Obama. He was born in U.S. soil (New York) but his parents brought him back to the Philippines. By US law, as a minor, he has no official citizenship status if there is a question as to his citizenship. In my cousin's case, he was born on US soil to Filipino parents. Hence, his citizenship status was in limbo, until he can make a decision when he turns 18. He can choose to be Filipino or US citizen.When my cousin turned 18, he had to go to the US Embassy to choose US citizen and get his papers (passport). He is considered a Naturalized US citizen. A person that has to take action to gain US citizenship is not a Natural Born US citizen. This is the status of Obama even if he was indeed born in Hawaii. He would still be a Naturalized US citizen and hence unqualified. So, as you can see, Obama is unqualified to be POTUS on many fronts. The argument about whether he was born in Hawaii or not is just one aspect of his qualification (non-qualification) to be POTUS. In a free society like America, such questions about his qualifications should have been vetted openly. If there was even a hint as to his qualifications, it should have been settled publicly and openly. Why don't people take this issue seriously. Even if people think that his BC was original and valid, people should still be calling for it to be settled once and for all. Open up the vault copy. No other steps or half measures will do. Great controversies require great measures to settle. Let the Birthers see it and it they are wrong, you get the chance to humiliate them to your heart's content. If I am wrong about this, I'm sure I will have great shame and tuck my tail between my legs and go away quietly. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 12:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies The earlier posting on muslim schools is confused. Some Muslim schools have a curriculum that is based solely on the Qur'an. This kind of school would only attract non-Muslim students interested in the Qur'an, or in the culture of Islam. Some Muslim schools have a standard secular curriculum, and are attended mostly by Muslims, thus confusing some into calling them Muslim schools. Some Muslim schools are merely called such because they operate in a Muslim country, like Indonesia. This is like calling US public schools Christian because they operate in a predominantly Christian country. To suggest that President Obama must be a Muslim because he went to a Muslim school in Indonesia is a statement that at best is meaningless. On Dec 31, 2012, at 4:37 AM, Nigel Dyer wrote: Indeed. There is a Catholic school in Birmingham, UK, where the majority of pupils are Muslim http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/birminghams-catholic-school-where-90-of-the-pupils-231115 Nigel On 31/12/2012 04:40, Jojo Jaro wrote: Yes, Christian catholic schools are more tolerant of other faiths, but not muslims. You can not go to a muslim school like the one Obama went to unless you are a muslim. Before Lomax spins this again; may I simply ask readers to research this on their own to see which of us both is lying. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
Are you saying your wife knows the exact school Obama went to? What's the name of the schoold and its address please? Can she descirbe what it looks like? When was the last time you wife has physically seen that school? Jojo Careful now, your next answer will reveal if you are lying about this or telling the truth as an actual witness of the school. Note, this is not an insult. I am forewarning you that I am attempting to set up a bait trap for you. - Original Message - From: Alain Sepeda To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies my wife know that school. it is a Jakarta dowtown secular state school... the country is muslim, yet there is 6 religion allowed, yet mandatory (you have to believe in one single god, with a paradise... that is the rule... whichever it is is your choice, even if like US there are political group using religion to reach power, and some increasing discrimination against minorities, nationally or locally) until recently when liberalisation inspired by humanrightists develop, the hijab (woman head scarf, which is much more sexy in indonesia than in saudi arabia) was forbidden in state school... and whatever you can say, it is clear Obama speak more like an evangelist priest... A bit shocking for a secular French, but if american love that style, it is their own freedom... Our choices since 10 years are criticized by more than 50% of the population, so we cannot give lessons... ah ah ;-) note also that what is evident from France is that US president is very weak because of the constitution, by design ... parliament rules and is republican... It is clear that US fear their government... whether it is good or not is not to be discussed... I just remind facts. 2012/12/31 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com His own autobiography says that he went to muslim school in Indonesia. You can't go to muslim school unless you're muslim. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies On what evidence do you base your assertion that President Obama is a Muslim? On Dec 29, 2012, at 9:39 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: No, I am not stating that the President is a muslim. I am stating that the Usurper is a muslim. We currently don't have a legitimate president; we have a usurper sitting on the throne. Why doesn't he just come clean? He could do this with a single 2 minute phone call to the Hawaiian authorities to open access to his vault BC. He can quickly end this controversy, establish his legitimacy, kill the Birther movement and start the healing of the nation. He can do all that in 2 minutes, yet he spends over 4 million dollars of Tax payer's money to block access to this vault BC. Why block access to such an innocuous document? WHY indeed? He won't because he can't. This is the pattern of a corrupt leader proped up by a corrupt shadow government strengthened by corrupt demonic forces. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies Are you stating that the President is Muslim? On Dec 27, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: Lomax does not understand that this Executive Order covers anything related to previous and current presidents. Anything about this current president is covered by this order. IF anyone wants to release information about Obama's BC, they have to go thru Eric Holder (the corrupt right henchman) or thru the Presidential counsel; for approval. This is the veil of corruption surrounding this usurper-in-thief and people like lomax are gving him a pass. I'm not surprised as lies are OK for Lomax as long as it helps prop up his illegitimate usurper muslim president. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 6:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies At 03:50 AM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Here is the actual Executive Order that Obama issued immediately after he took power. The Media spins this as rescinding a Bush Executive Order 13233. But in fact, it is a new Executive Order to specifically require his approval before release of any information, obstensively because of Executive Privelege. Obstentively? Took me a moment. Ostensibly. Release of any information. Sure. Any information of what type, where located, and by whom? Now, Lomax, who is lying now. Do I get
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Now, we are getting into Philosophy. OK, I'll bite since I am not too busy yet. As to the issue of unverfiiable source. You need to define what you mean by unverifiable. How does one go about verifying a history book like the Bible? You call it unverifiable because you choose to not believe it despite evidence as to its integrity. Archeologists have verified many of the statements in the Bible. Long lost cities, locations, practices and cultures have been verified to have existed according to what is written in the Bible. Most notably, the existence of theAssyrian Kingdom have recently been verified. For decades, nobody can find proof of the existence of the Assyrian Empire and its capital Nineveh. The Bible stood alone in its defense for the existence of the Assyrian Empire and its capital Nineveh. People scoofed at the Bible because it was wrong. Well, lo and behold, Nineveh has been found and replete with amazing cultural and archeological finds that establishes once and for all that it existed at the time period and location that the Bible said it was. But, did that increase you belief in the integrity of the Bible? I do not believe so. You still call it a fairy tale and unverifiable. Despite this kinds of discovery occuring hundreds and thousands of time, in all fields of science, you still call the Bible unverifiable. The Bible has verifed that the Earth was round in 3 different locations in the Bible. Yet, that is not enough to verfiy it. There are literally hundreds of statements about scientific facts we did not discover until recently, that is in the Bible. Yet, that is not enough to verify it. What will it take to verify the Bible for you my friend? You will finally believe that the Bible is true when you see Demons and fallen Angels descend down on you. But by then, it would be too late for you. You see my friend, you do not believe the Bible because you chose not to believe it; not because you CAN NOT believe it. Facts are there if you choose to believe it. Jojo - Original Message - From: Craig cchayniepub...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age On 12/30/2012 11:09 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: OK, since you asked, do not call me a troll by answering this. Genesis chapter 6 is the source of this. This passage is the reason why God destroyed the Earth I think this is the source of the conflict: Epistemology dictates that all knowledge comes from observation. When we converse with each other in an attempt to exchange knowledge, we use the Universe around us as a reference point in the exchange of truth. There is no such thing as communication without this common reference point. Words refer to existents and communication is act of exchanging observations about the Universe. There is no other source for knowledge since the Universe is all that exists, by definition. This epistemology is at the foundation of science. Using a book, such as Genesis, as a source of information is not valid. It is heresay from an unverifiable source. Likewise, faith is not a means of cognition, since there is no independent way of ascertaining which faith is correct -- and what correct even means without a reference to the Universe. So Jaro, what you're seeing as insults, are challenges to your epistemology. They are not insults, but you may interpret them as such since such challenges rip at core beliefs. I also see a problem with definitions you use. You use terms like 'God' and 'Angels' without defining these terms. When I've spoken with Christians before on such terms, they have never provided a definition. With 'God', they will typically say that he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present, but such descriptions defy definition. To define something is to delimit it from other existents. Without a way to delimit its characteristics, it simply cannot exist. There is no difference between something that is 'everything' and something that is 'nothing'. Which characteristics would be different? There can't be a difference when there are no identifiable characteristics. Craig
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Yes, I believe Genesis and the Bible to be literraly true. (Not that I believe Jesus was a chicken because he said he would like to gather Jerusalem under his wings.) I believe it is true because I have verified it to be true. Beleive it or not, I was and am an engineer. I studied science. And I have found that the Bible is a science book. Not that it is exclusiviely a book about science, but it does contain enough science for one to verify. If the Bible had said that the Earth was a big plate standing on the backs of 4 elephants, then you would have a valid reason to call it a fairy tale. But every statement made by the Bible about science has been found to be true. After having read it over 29 times, I have still to encounter a statement in the Bible that science has found to be categorically false. I challenge you or anyone to prove me wrong on this. But do it one at a time so that I can respond properly to it. Do not cut and paste a blog from an Atheist web site. I won't have time or the capability to respond to that in a meaningful way. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 12:35 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Thanks, Jojo, I appreciate your response to my query. It seems to me that you have faith that Genesis is literally accurate. How did you find your way to this faith? Was it difficult? Easy? How unshakeable is your faith? Again,thank you for your response. On Dec 30, 2012, at 11:09 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: OK, since you asked, do not call me a troll by answering this. Genesis chapter 6 is the source of this. This passage is the reason why God destroyed the Earth with the flood. 6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. The Hebrew word translated as Giants is Nephilim. The Hebrew words for Sons of God literally means sons of Elohim. In the Old Testament, only direct creations of God are referred to as Sons of God. Only Adam, Eve and Angels are direct creations of God; but Eve is not a son, so that leaves Adam and Angels. So, clearly this passage refers to fallen angels mating with human females producing giants and mighty men of renown. Men of renown means these men are known by the various histories of the region. Throughout history and in every culture - Romans, Greeks, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Sumerian, etc, there is mythology relating to gods mating with human women producing extraordinary hybrids. The Sumerians have their Annunaki. The Greeks with their pantheon of gods which the Romans adopted wholesale more or less. In these mythology, there is Hercules, half god half man with great size and strength. There is Perseus, half god son of Zeus. There is Atlas, half god, big and strong depicted as carrying the Earth on his back. These are the men that are renown. Google the video Return of the Nephilim by Chuck Missler. Chuck used be in the Defense Industry. He was an insider. In his videos, he tries to document the link between Nephilims and modern UFOs. Watch it and judge for yourself. Of course, there are also other videos when you google UFOs, Nephilim, Annunaki, NWO, illuminati, etc. Some good some crazy. Judge for yourself. There are books about this subject. I do not play video games so I do not know if there are. I'm pretty this is as this is a common theme the illuminati wants to desensitize people on. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 1:19 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Thanks. This is fascinating. What are the sources for this information? There is reason to believe that fallen angels are trying to breed with humans to
Re: [Vo]:List integrity
So, muslims approve of marriage with sexual relations to a 9 year old menstruating little girl?''' There are only 2 possible answers: Yes or No. But let's see how Lomax will spin this. Jojo PS. Note that 2 respected and venerated muslim sources (Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari) have indicated that A'isha was indeed 9 years old when muhammed started having intercourse with her; yet you find Lomax still attempting to throw confusion as to Aisha age. Yet he does not say exactly what age he believes A'isha was when muhammed consumated the marriage. So Lomax, based on your considerable research into this topic, what was A'isha age when muhammed started having intercourse with her? - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:List integrity At 05:31 PM 12/31/2012, Harry Veeder wrote: Sorry I am confused. What is considered false here? A nine year old is barely out diapers or that muslims do not disapprove of sexual relations with a nine year old? Obviously a nine year old is not barely out of diapers. Muslims disapprove of sexual relations outside of marriage, so the issue is marriage (and specifically the consummation of marriage). Muslims disapprove of the consummation of a marraige with a girl who is not sexually mature, specifically mentstruating. It's considered rape, because mensturation is a condition for a woman having reached the age of consent. This is not the only condition; parents, generally, determine the right to consent as well, and girls are not automatically free to make their own choices until much later than nine. Marriage requires consent. Specifically, the woman must consent. Muslims disapprove of the marriage of minor children without parental consent. (This is the same as U.S. law, generally.) *Some* Muslims believe that the wife of the Prophet was nine when she was married, and assume that the marriage was consummated. But this is actually not solidly establshed. Nevertheless, *those Muslims* sometimes, from the example, allow 9 years old as a lower limit, but, in fact, the limit is sexual maturity -- or whatever standard is established by the society, *in addition to parental consent.* (Technically, the wali consents, who is usually the father, but it can be others. A free woman sometimes appoints a wali, I've served.) *Most* Muslims disapprove of marriage that is not recognised by the society in which the parties live. Because of law in the United States, then, and in that place, Muslims disapprove of sexual relations with a nine-year old, no matter what the state of sexual maturity or parental consent. Under other conditions, their opinion might differ. All these discussions were about the *limits*. U.S. law, in some states, if I'm correct, still sets no minimum age for marriage, but requires judicial consent below a certain age, sometimes 14.
