Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Mary Yugo]

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

>
> On one sense this was an historic event, but from the point of view of an
> organization like the AP it was not newsworthy.
>

If they had believed this was really a one megawatt nuclear fusion reactor
using nickel and hydrogen as fuel in low temperature nuclear reaction, you
bet your bippy it would be news -- BIG news.

Without knowing the name of customer and the particulars there is no story
> here.
>

Correct.  But that's because it was not credible.


If an AP reporter had been present at the first test of a transistor at
> Bell Labs on Dec. 24, 1947, I doubt the reporter would have anything
> newsworthy to say. It did not look like much and it did not prove much,
> from a mass media point of view.
>

Bad analogy -- if the E-cat were real, this could have been a spectacular
demonstration with lots of steam and noise and spouting and fuss.  It's not
a transistor.  It's a MEGAWATT PLANT.   The steam should have powered some
sort of engine, heated a room, lifted some weights, done SOMETHING.  And
the generator should have been shut down (Rossi could have and should have
powered his instruments from the mains through a metered supply).  There
would have been something to see if the machine really was powered by cold
fusion instead of diesel.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jed Rothwell]

Mary Yugo  wrote:

As far as I know only Rossi wanted publicity, and not much of that. He did
>> not get much, because he did not reveal much. That does not seem to bother
>> him.
>>
>> I think most of the invitations to the Oct. 28 event were presents to his
>> friends.
>>
>> You mean like the invitation to Peter Svensson, the AP reporter who
> wrote no report about it?*
> *


I do not know if Svensson is a friend of Rossi's, but yes, that is what I
meant when I said Rossi did not get publicity "because he did not reveal
much." There was no much for Svensson to report, as I have pointed out
several times.

Lewan published only a short report. At LENR-CANR.org I added a few
sentences and a link to Lewan.

On one sense this was an historic event, but from the point of view of an
organization like the AP it was not newsworthy. Without knowing the name of
customer and the particulars there is no story here.

If an AP reporter had been present at the first test of a transistor at
Bell Labs on Dec. 24, 1947, I doubt the reporter would have anything
newsworthy to say. It did not look like much and it did not prove much,
from a mass media point of view. No one could have predicted it would
become a practical technology on that day. Many other breakthroughs were
needed, such as zone refining, and it was not a foregone conclusion they
would be made.

Here is Brattain's lab notebook from that day:

http://www.porticus.org/bell/pdf/brattain_lab_notebook.pdf

It is unassuming, and matter-of-fact. It resembles Fioravanti's HVAC test
sheet from Oct. 28.

Notice that they did not confirm it was an amplifier until Dec. 24, by
observing oscillations.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Mary Yugo]

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 8:38 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Charles Hope  wrote:
>
>>
>> So the client is the American military, who has hired Fioravanti to take
>> possession of their goods, and though the branch wants to keep their
>> identity secret, it nevertheless insisted on the publicity of the October
>> 28th test?
>>
>
> Where did you hear that the purchaser "insisted on the publicity"?
>
> As far as I know only Rossi wanted publicity, and not much of that. He did
> not get much, because he did not reveal much. That does not seem to bother
> him.
>
> I think most of the invitations to the Oct. 28 event were presents to his
> friends.
>
> You mean like the invitation to Peter Svensson, the AP reporter who wrote
no report about it?*
*

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jed Rothwell]

Charles Hope  wrote:

>
> So the client is the American military, who has hired Fioravanti to take
> possession of their goods, and though the branch wants to keep their
> identity secret, it nevertheless insisted on the publicity of the October
> 28th test?
>

Where did you hear that the purchaser "insisted on the publicity"?

As far as I know only Rossi wanted publicity, and not much of that. He did
not get much, because he did not reveal much. That does not seem to bother
him.

I think most of the invitations to the Oct. 28 event were presents to his
friends.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Aussie Guy E-Cat]

Rossi has said the 1st customer does US military research, their 1 MW 
E-Cat is installed in the US and they have ordered 13 more. Who they are 
working for is anybodies guess. To me it seems clear they were hired to 
test the E-Cat at a place away from Rossi (who did the install, is doing 
the maintenance and has virtually unlimited access to the plant) and 
write a detailed report for their client.


AG


On 11/26/2011 2:35 AM, Charles Hope wrote:

That's enough with the personal attacks.

So the client is the American military, who has hired Fioravanti to 
take possession of their goods, and though the branch wants to keep 
their identity secret, it nevertheless insisted on the publicity of 
the October 28th test?


Am I clear?




On Nov 25, 2011, at 2:49, Marcello Vitale > wrote:


MY says there is no client. Let me explore the logical consequences 
of this revelation. Because it's a fact. MY said it, and it fits 
Occam's razor, which says (I am sure I don't need to remind you) that 
"whatever MY points to as the simplest theory, is indeed true".


Therefore, October 28 was all a big show, with actors and dancers. 
Yet, Rossi is not turning around and selling retail, or selling 
stocks. Not making money in any way. Not using the advertisement he 
paid for, if you will. It's as if a company would launch a huge ad 
campaign, but not put the advertised product in stores. "Buy my ecat! 
Available 2013! Please, don't send money now!"


Ah, sure, except he is already making money: from those "secret 
investors bound to strict secrecy agreements" who paid him in secret 
money drawn in a secret currency nobody else knows about, which of 
course would at least explain the financial crisis. Then, why did 
Rossi have to make that show, anyway? Show the investors he is 
selling? Then they would start asking for a return on the investment. 
No, no, the R&D money leeches are always just a few weeks away from a 
salable product. It doesn't compute.


Maybe he just wanted to laugh at us? Or maybe he wanted to make sure 
MY, certainly his most feared competitor, was kept busy writing about 
it and not do any work? But if Rossi is a scammer, the competitor of 
a scammer is another scammer. OK, I guess I'm onto something, I think 
all the passages in the logical chain do make sense, if one starts 
from the assumption that Rossi is a scammer, arriving to the 
conclusion that MY is also a scammer seems almost unavoidable.


Which water car are you selling, MY?

MY theory is the simplest!

:- :-) :-)

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Mary Yugo > wrote:




On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Charles Hope
mailto:lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Nov 24, 2011, at 19:49, Jed Rothwell
mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com>> wrote:


He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in.


OK.  So you hire some munitions experts who defuse such things
for a living.  If you buy a megawatt plant, you get 100 tries to
disarm the mechanism.  You can try freezing it ... in liquid
nitrogen if necessary.  You can examine it first
non-destructively any way you want including the examination
Rossi forbade Celani to do during a demo.  I can't believe for
enough money you couldn't break anything Rossi could put in.  And
remember, Rossi is limited by safety issues.

Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn
around to sell to them as his flagship client?


My theory is the simplest:  that there is no client.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Charles Hope]

That's enough with the personal attacks.  

So the client is the American military, who has hired Fioravanti to take 
possession of their goods, and though the branch wants to keep their identity 
secret, it nevertheless insisted on the publicity of the October 28th test?

Am I clear?




On Nov 25, 2011, at 2:49, Marcello Vitale  wrote:

> MY says there is no client. Let me explore the logical consequences of this 
> revelation. Because it's a fact. MY said it, and it fits Occam's razor, which 
> says (I am sure I don't need to remind you) that "whatever MY points to as 
> the simplest theory, is indeed true".
> 
> Therefore, October 28 was all a big show, with actors and dancers. Yet, Rossi 
> is not turning around and selling retail, or selling stocks. Not making money 
> in any way. Not using the advertisement he paid for, if you will. It's as if 
> a company would launch a huge ad campaign, but not put the advertised product 
> in stores. "Buy my ecat! Available 2013! Please, don't send money now!" 
> 
> Ah, sure, except he is already making money: from those "secret investors 
> bound to strict secrecy agreements" who paid him in secret money drawn in a 
> secret currency nobody else knows about, which of course would at least 
> explain the financial crisis. Then, why did Rossi have to make that show, 
> anyway? Show the investors he is selling? Then they would start asking for a 
> return on the investment. No, no, the R&D money leeches are always just a few 
> weeks away from a salable product. It doesn't compute.
> 
> Maybe he just wanted to laugh at us? Or maybe he wanted to make sure MY, 
> certainly his most feared competitor, was kept busy writing about it and not 
> do any work? But if Rossi is a scammer, the competitor of a scammer is 
> another scammer. OK, I guess I'm onto something, I think all the passages in 
> the logical chain do make sense, if one starts from the assumption that Rossi 
> is a scammer, arriving to the conclusion that MY is also a scammer seems 
> almost unavoidable.
> 
> Which water car are you selling, MY?
> 
> MY theory is the simplest!
> 
> :- :-) :-)
> 
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Mary Yugo  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Charles Hope  
> wrote:
> On Nov 24, 2011, at 19:49, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> 
> 
> He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in. 
> 
> OK.  So you hire some munitions experts who defuse such things for a living.  
> If you buy a megawatt plant, you get 100 tries to disarm the mechanism.  You 
> can try freezing it ... in liquid nitrogen if necessary.  You can examine it 
> first non-destructively any way you want including the examination Rossi 
> forbade Celani to do during a demo.  I can't believe for enough money you 
> couldn't break anything Rossi could put in.  And remember, Rossi is limited 
> by safety issues.
> 
>  
> Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to sell to 
> them as his flagship client?
> 
> My theory is the simplest:  that there is no client.   
> 
>  

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Sean True]

I'm not sure anyone has pointed out the IP advantages to Rossi of
selling his initial plants to the US military.

Unlike the Chinese army or the Iranian republican guard, the US
military is not in the business of reverse engineering, or of lowest
cost procurement. For mission critical components, they can pretty
much purchase what they need, subject to it fitting into the "petty
cash" requirement.

When your HVAC cost in two theaters of water is 20 billion plus
(http://www.npr.org/2011/06/25/137414737/among-the-costs-of-war-20b-in-air-conditioning),
a few millions for Rossi devices is modest. Petty, even.

This gets Rossi devices into the field for testing and use by a
willing customer. This moves him _far_ down the curve towards broad
utility. Engineering is always best tested in the field, the muddier
the field -- the better. And once tested -- and eventually
acknowledged -- by such a customer, his IP prospects improve
dramatically.  From both an intellectual and a political point of
view. I am not going to speculate which is most important.

As for Rossi's declarations of not having the military for a customer,
if you are in high technology they _will_ be a customer if you have a
competitive product. Filtering through Rossi's declarations about
this, and imagining what he was thinking (as opposed to what he
translated into English), one could read "I won't sell this as weapons
technology, but if it keeps soldiers warm or cold or more effective,
that's OK with me". If that sounds like rationalization, welcome to
the world of getting things done on a shoe string as an entrepreneur.

“He must needs go that the Devil drives.” Shakespeare: All’s Well
That-Ends Well, i. 3.

Let's hope that his bargain is not Faustian.

-- Sean

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Marcello Vitale]

Rich, JC does say a lot of things about Oct. 28, mostly having to climb
mirrors because, really, he does not seem to have ever so much as boiled
water in a pot, and the data from Oct. 28 are particularly few. Regardless,
he has only the "secret investors bound to tight secrecy contracts" as
hypothesis for whom Rossi is trying to defraud. And, if what he says is
correct, Rossi must be scamming somebody or planning to scam somebody. That
is the part I don't see.

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Rich Murray  wrote:

> Cude's careful examination of the details of the October 28 demo prove
> that excess heat was specifically not established by the data,
> according to his obvious, simple analysis of how fast a large increase
> in reactor core temperature could heat the large thermal mass of the
> cooling water flow -- proponents are ignoring or talking past his
> points, which he has clarified patiently over and over in recent
> weeks.
>
> I agree Rossi is deluded and caught up in many neurotic patterns.
>
> within mutual service,  Rich Murray
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:02 AM, Alain dit le Cycliste
>  wrote:
>
> > Rossi's behavior  is quite coeherent with a soft-paranoid version.
> >
> > Scam is not defendable.
> >
> > let's imagine the option.
> >
> > MY say, there are no clients, or fake client (actor, friend of scam).
> > if no client, no cash from clients. (as say MV here)
> > where from ? from investors ?
> > no public share sales...
> > where is the scam ?
> > no room for it.
> >
> > if client is real :
> > - that client agree to pay billions if it works, big bucks.
> > - he have to be suspicious because he know that CF is officially a scam
> or a
> > mistake. at least shareholders ask him for Due Diligence.
> >-> he can pay a billion, so he cam pay a good lab engineer, and even a
> > magician to check all.
> >-> he can bring meters
> > - he was accepted to supervise the experiment touching the pipes and
> boxes,
> > allowed to installe meters where possible, outside only, but Rossi cannot
> > refuse any reasonabledemand
> >-> the client have put meters every where useful for him
> >-> he have checked all he want out of the boxes
> >-> he use also his own body captors (noise, heat, smell) to confirm
> > mesures
> >
> > -> saying that the client can bee fooled by wet steam, is taking him
> stupid.
> > the client is not a scientist, but a business engineer prepared to see a
> > fraud.
> > -> however he might don't care about the precision of measure, provides
> that
> > +/- 20% it is what he want... even having half the power is a happy
> end...
> > you don't drop your chicken if it produce only small golden eggs.
> >
> > so:
> > - if the machine consume much, sure he know it ,
> > - if it has stored heat in thermal mass, he can feel it (smell, room
> temp,
> > IR rays, thermometers)
> >
> > however:
> > - rossi and the client don't care about us... like in poker, if you don't
> > pay, you don't see. moreover we are not even on the table.
> > - doubt is good for Rossi and his client, because it slow competitors and
> > finance market reaction.
> > - rossi is a man who fight against the unbelief, the trash mafia, the
> > government politicians and ecologists, nearly get ruined, get to jail,
> see
> > the physicists community treat regular scientific studies as fraud
> without
> > considering facts...  he cannot be easily trusting... he have to be
> > paranoid, rebel, stubborn, dubious, 
> >
> > the behavior of Rossi&co seems strange, but first it can be analyzed
> logical
> > if you assert that there is a running pattent and commercial war.
> > but I'm even thinking that all Rossi behavior is not only rational, but
> > simply "emotional"...
> > he have so much pain, hate, furor, pride, fear, that his behavior is more
> > like the one of a wild roof cat than a bedroom cat.
> >
> > anyway, his behavior is far from a plain old scam.
> > at worst he might be (badly) lying about the performance of his baby...
> it
> > is a bit what he did, and admit, about the instability of his reactor.
> > NI partneship is thus a good business answer (as an engineer I'll do the
> > same, to fight DGT, or else as my former schoolmates and  Eng. schools).
> >
> > as I say befor, the proposed scenarii for scam, error, and so on ar not
> > credible...
> >
> > as incredible as the 9/11 complot. too many people in the scam, too much
> > complex for the goal, to much budget...
> > should go to Occam's Barber Shop.
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Rich Murray]

Cude's careful examination of the details of the October 28 demo prove
that excess heat was specifically not established by the data,
according to his obvious, simple analysis of how fast a large increase
in reactor core temperature could heat the large thermal mass of the
cooling water flow -- proponents are ignoring or talking past his
points, which he has clarified patiently over and over in recent
weeks.

I agree Rossi is deluded and caught up in many neurotic patterns.

within mutual service,  Rich Murray


On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:02 AM, Alain dit le Cycliste
 wrote:

> Rossi's behavior  is quite coeherent with a soft-paranoid version.
>
> Scam is not defendable.
>
> let's imagine the option.
>
> MY say, there are no clients, or fake client (actor, friend of scam).
> if no client, no cash from clients. (as say MV here)
> where from ? from investors ?
> no public share sales...
> where is the scam ?
> no room for it.
>
> if client is real :
> - that client agree to pay billions if it works, big bucks.
> - he have to be suspicious because he know that CF is officially a scam or a
> mistake. at least shareholders ask him for Due Diligence.
>    -> he can pay a billion, so he cam pay a good lab engineer, and even a
> magician to check all.
>    -> he can bring meters
> - he was accepted to supervise the experiment touching the pipes and boxes,
> allowed to installe meters where possible, outside only, but Rossi cannot
> refuse any reasonabledemand
>    -> the client have put meters every where useful for him
>    -> he have checked all he want out of the boxes
>    -> he use also his own body captors (noise, heat, smell) to confirm
> mesures
>
> -> saying that the client can bee fooled by wet steam, is taking him stupid.
> the client is not a scientist, but a business engineer prepared to see a
> fraud.
> -> however he might don't care about the precision of measure, provides that
> +/- 20% it is what he want... even having half the power is a happy end...
> you don't drop your chicken if it produce only small golden eggs.
>
> so:
> - if the machine consume much, sure he know it ,
> - if it has stored heat in thermal mass, he can feel it (smell, room temp,
> IR rays, thermometers)
>
> however:
> - rossi and the client don't care about us... like in poker, if you don't
> pay, you don't see. moreover we are not even on the table.
> - doubt is good for Rossi and his client, because it slow competitors and
> finance market reaction.
> - rossi is a man who fight against the unbelief, the trash mafia, the
> government politicians and ecologists, nearly get ruined, get to jail, see
> the physicists community treat regular scientific studies as fraud without
> considering facts...  he cannot be easily trusting... he have to be
> paranoid, rebel, stubborn, dubious, 
>
> the behavior of Rossi&co seems strange, but first it can be analyzed logical
> if you assert that there is a running pattent and commercial war.
> but I'm even thinking that all Rossi behavior is not only rational, but
> simply "emotional"...
> he have so much pain, hate, furor, pride, fear, that his behavior is more
> like the one of a wild roof cat than a bedroom cat.
>
> anyway, his behavior is far from a plain old scam.
> at worst he might be (badly) lying about the performance of his baby... it
> is a bit what he did, and admit, about the instability of his reactor.
> NI partneship is thus a good business answer (as an engineer I'll do the
> same, to fight DGT, or else as my former schoolmates and  Eng. schools).
>
> as I say befor, the proposed scenarii for scam, error, and so on ar not
> credible...
>
> as incredible as the 9/11 complot. too many people in the scam, too much
> complex for the goal, to much budget...
> should go to Occam's Barber Shop.
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Alain dit le Cycliste]

Rossi's behavior  is quite coeherent with a soft-paranoid version.

Scam is not defendable.

let's imagine the option.

MY say, there are no clients, or fake client (actor, friend of scam).
if no client, no cash from clients. (as say MV here)
where from ? from investors ?
no public share sales...
where is the scam ?
no room for it.

if client is real :
- that client agree to pay billions if it works, big bucks.
- he have to be suspicious because he know that CF is officially a scam or
a mistake. at least shareholders ask him for Due Diligence.
   -> he can pay a billion, so he cam pay a good lab engineer, and even a
magician to check all.
   -> he can bring meters
- he was accepted to supervise the experiment touching the pipes and boxes,
allowed to installe meters where possible, outside only, but Rossi cannot
refuse any reasonabledemand
   -> the client have put meters every where useful for him
   -> he have checked all he want out of the boxes
   -> he use also his own body captors (noise, heat, smell) to confirm
mesures

-> saying that the client can bee fooled by wet steam, is taking him
stupid. the client is not a scientist, but a business engineer prepared to
see a fraud.
-> however he might don't care about the precision of measure, provides
that +/- 20% it is what he want... even having half the power is a happy
end...
you don't drop your chicken if it produce only small golden eggs.

so:
- if the machine consume much, sure he know it ,
- if it has stored heat in thermal mass, he can feel it (smell, room temp,
IR rays, thermometers)

however:
- rossi and the client don't care about us... like in poker, if you don't
pay, you don't see. moreover we are not even on the table.
- doubt is good for Rossi and his client, because it slow competitors and
finance market reaction.
- rossi is a man who fight against the unbelief, the trash mafia, the
government politicians and ecologists, nearly get ruined, get to jail, see
the physicists community treat regular scientific studies as fraud without
considering facts...  he cannot be easily trusting... he have to be
paranoid, rebel, stubborn, dubious, 

the behavior of Rossi&co seems strange, but first it can be analyzed
logical if you assert that there is a running pattent and commercial war.
but I'm even thinking that all Rossi behavior is not only rational, but
simply "emotional"...
he have so much pain, hate, furor, pride, fear, that his behavior is more
like the one of a wild roof cat than a bedroom cat.

anyway, his behavior is far from a plain old scam.
at worst he might be (badly) lying about the performance of his baby... it
is a bit what he did, and admit, about the instability of his reactor.
NI partneship is thus a good business answer (as an engineer I'll do the
same, to fight DGT, or else as my former schoolmates and  Eng. schools).

as I say befor, the proposed scenarii for scam, error, and so on ar not
credible...

as incredible as the 9/11 complot. too many people in the scam, too much
complex for the goal, to much budget...
should go to Occam's Barber Shop.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Marcello Vitale]

MY says there is no client. Let me explore the logical consequences of this
revelation. Because it's a fact. MY said it, and it fits Occam's razor,
which says (I am sure I don't need to remind you) that "whatever MY points
to as the simplest theory, is indeed true".

Therefore, October 28 was all a big show, with actors and dancers. Yet,
Rossi is not turning around and selling retail, or selling stocks. Not
making money in any way. Not using the advertisement he paid for, if you
will. It's as if a company would launch a huge ad campaign, but not put the
advertised product in stores. "Buy my ecat! Available 2013! Please, don't
send money now!"

Ah, sure, except he is already making money: from those "secret investors
bound to strict secrecy agreements" who paid him in secret money drawn in a
secret currency nobody else knows about, which of course would at least
explain the financial crisis. Then, why did Rossi have to make that show,
anyway? Show the investors he is selling? Then they would start asking for
a return on the investment. No, no, the R&D money leeches are always just a
few weeks away from a salable product. It doesn't compute.

Maybe he just wanted to laugh at us? Or maybe he wanted to make sure MY,
certainly his most feared competitor, was kept busy writing about it and
not do any work? But if Rossi is a scammer, the competitor of a scammer is
another scammer. OK, I guess I'm onto something, I think all the passages
in the logical chain do make sense, if one starts from the assumption that
Rossi is a scammer, arriving to the conclusion that MY is also a scammer
seems almost unavoidable.

Which water car are you selling, MY?

MY theory is the simplest!

:- :-) :-)

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Mary Yugo  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Charles Hope <
> lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Nov 24, 2011, at 19:49, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>>
>>
>> He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in.
>>
>
> OK.  So you hire some munitions experts who defuse such things for a
> living.  If you buy a megawatt plant, you get 100 tries to disarm the
> mechanism.  You can try freezing it ... in liquid nitrogen if necessary.
> You can examine it first non-destructively any way you want including the
> examination Rossi forbade Celani to do during a demo.  I can't believe for
> enough money you couldn't break anything Rossi could put in.  And remember,
> Rossi is limited by safety issues.
>
>
>
>> Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to
>> sell to them as his flagship client?
>>
>
> My theory is the simplest:  that there is no client.
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Mary Yugo]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:35 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat
wrote:

> WTF? I take it you did not read what our setup is to be and that you do
> not understand what closed loop means?
>

No, I do.  And I read what you wrote.  And yes, a test of the E-cat in
which it ran without outside power for a long time and powered lights (or
some other load) is exactly what is needed.  The point was that far as I
know, nobody knows you.  I guess you could establish your and your
companies credentials and credibility but I don't think you've done that.

Thank you for the time estimate.   I am guessing that by three months from
now, Rossi will have a new story and you will not have a new E-cat but, as
always, time will tell.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Mary Yugo]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Charles Hope
wrote:

> On Nov 24, 2011, at 19:49, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>
>
> He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in.
>

OK.  So you hire some munitions experts who defuse such things for a
living.  If you buy a megawatt plant, you get 100 tries to disarm the
mechanism.  You can try freezing it ... in liquid nitrogen if necessary.
You can examine it first non-destructively any way you want including the
examination Rossi forbade Celani to do during a demo.  I can't believe for
enough money you couldn't break anything Rossi could put in.  And remember,
Rossi is limited by safety issues.



> Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to sell
> to them as his flagship client?
>

My theory is the simplest:  that there is no client.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jed Rothwell]

Charles Hope  wrote:


> He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in.
>

Well, perhaps he does, but as I said, dealing a large, highly reputable
institution is a better guarantee.


> As far as I know, it is impossible in the U.S.
>
> But Rossi says it's not cold fusion.
>

It does not matter what he says it is. I am sure the P.O. and everyone else
will recognize it is cold fusion.


Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to sell
> to them as his flagship client?
>

I suppose he changed his mind. That is his prerogative.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 24, 2011, at 19:49, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Mary Yugo  wrote:
> 
> I'm curious.  How do you think Rossi protects his IP when he sells 100 of the 
> E-cats in a batch to an unnamed client.
> 
> I answered that question already. Please reread my message.
> 


He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in. 



> 
> There is no smoking gun for fraud.  But Rossi behaves exactly and 
> consistently like free energy scammers who in the past ripped off millions 
> from investors.
> 
> He also behaves exactly like a legitimate businessman who does not have a 
> patent, and is having difficulty getting one. Everyone knows it is difficult 
> to get a patent for cold fusion. As far as I know, it is impossible in the 
> U.S.
> 


But Rossi says it's not cold fusion. The patent application he tried lacked the 
catalyst. How can he get protection for the catalyst if he doesn't reveal it in 
the application?

Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to sell to 
them as his flagship client?

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Aussie Guy E-Cat]

Rossi has offered to install 1 MW of E-Cats into one half of our 
supplier 40 ft container, which will have the heat to Ac kW conversion 
system in the other half. Delivery of the 1 MW diathermic oil E-Cat 
system is 3 months as per his usual quote. We are now searching for 
suitable diathermic oil to Ac kW conversion systems.


AG


On 11/25/2011 12:05 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote:

WTF? I take it you did not read what our setup is to be and that you do
not understand what closed loop means?

AG


On 11/25/2011 11:46 AM, Mary Yugo wrote:



On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat
mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com>> wrote:

There is no way our proposed closed loop test can be fraud.


OK, I'll bite. Why not? And again, when is this test expected to take
place?

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Aussie Guy E-Cat]

WTF? I take it you did not read what our setup is to be and that you do 
not understand what closed loop means?


AG


On 11/25/2011 11:46 AM, Mary Yugo wrote:



On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat 
mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com>> wrote:


There is no way our proposed closed loop test can be fraud.


OK, I'll bite.  Why not? And again, when is this test expected to take 
place?

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Aussie Guy E-Cat]

What we need is for the entire system (E-Cat and Heat Engine) to fit 
into a single container. When we agree on the design, we propose to ship 
our container (with the diathermic oil friendly heat engine installed) 
to the E-Cat factory and have the E-Cat half of the container populated. 
Then we will link the 2 sub systems, get it all working and perform a 
closed loop test as indicated. After the test is passed, we will pay 
Rossi for the E-Cats. He fully understand that and has basically agreed 
to the process. Our course we need to finalize the details, need to get 
it down on paper, signed and money paid into the Escrow account. I have 
no doubts this will happen. Now it is just an engineering job to put it 
all together and to get everything into a container, probably a 40 fter, 
make a workable and liveable layout (probably put in a R/C A/C system to 
keep it cool inside, a few lights, desks and PCs, etc) that we can drop 
ship and quickly do self contained demos anywhere we desire. Probably 
put up a sign saying:


Come and have a look. No wires or tubes or radiation or pollution or 
noise but running for days on a tiny amount of Hydrogen while lighting 
up a few BIG lights.


AG


On 11/25/2011 11:15 AM, Mary Yugo wrote:



On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat 
mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com>> wrote:


We are working with Rossi to put together a diathermic oil E-Cat
system, feeding a heat engine system that will deliver Ac kWs from
the heated diathermic oil. We will then feed enough of the
generated Ac kWs back into the E-Cat to maintain it in power mode
while using the excess Ac kWs generation to light up a few BIG
lights and leave it running for a few days. We then have a E-Cat
proof system in a 20 ft container that we can demo to conservative
politicians and power industry guys. The rest will be history.



That would be good.  When do you expect delivery of the E-cat portion 
of the system?

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Mary Yugo]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat
wrote:

> There is no way our proposed closed loop test can be fraud.
>

OK, I'll bite.  Why not? And again, when is this test expected to take
place?

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Aussie Guy E-Cat]

There is no way our proposed closed loop test can be fraud.

AG


On 11/25/2011 11:21 AM, Alan Fletcher wrote:

You mean he's changed his mind on selling you a 100KW?  Instead, he'll work 
with and sell you a custom version of a multi-cat?

(Alternative universe : you hinted that you have a yacht, so he knows you're an 
easy mark)

- Original Message -

We are working with Rossi to put together a diathermic oil E-Cat
system 

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Harry Veeder]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:


> I understand why Rossi does not want tests. He is trying to keep his results
> ambiguous. However, until he decides to allow tests, he should not visit
> elected officials and waste their time. He should not waste Hagelstein's
> time. He damn well should have known they cannot do business with him
> without tests.

He may waste their time, but it drums up interest in his ECAT.
Rossi would never waste his own time.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Alan Fletcher]

You mean he's changed his mind on selling you a 100KW?  Instead, he'll work 
with and sell you a custom version of a multi-cat?

(Alternative universe : you hinted that you have a yacht, so he knows you're an 
easy mark)

- Original Message -
> We are working with Rossi to put together a diathermic oil E-Cat
> system 

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jed Rothwell]

Mary Yugo  wrote:

I'm curious.  How do you think Rossi protects his IP when he sells 100 of
> the E-cats in a batch to an unnamed client.
>

I answered that question already. Please reread my message.



> There is no smoking gun for fraud.  But Rossi behaves exactly and
> consistently like free energy scammers who in the past ripped off millions
> from investors.
>

He also behaves exactly like a legitimate businessman who does not have a
patent, and is having difficulty getting one. Everyone knows it is
difficult to get a patent for cold fusion. As far as I know, it is
impossible in the U.S.

You have often pointed to behavior by Rossi and others and said "this is
what a scammer does." You fail to notice that the examples you give are
also what ordinary, legitimate business people do. You said that having a
web site and an order form is suspicious. You said there is nothing in the
order form that indicates other people have ordered the product before.
Order forms never indicate that.

To put it in abstract terms:

When you point to attribute A and say it distinguishes condition X from Y,
you should first check to be sure that A does not fit X or Y equally well.
In this venn diagram, you are pointing to C and saying it is part of A but
not B:

[image: image.png]

- Jed
<>

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Mary Yugo]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat
wrote:

> We are working with Rossi to put together a diathermic oil E-Cat system,
> feeding a heat engine system that will deliver Ac kWs from the heated
> diathermic oil. We will then feed enough of the generated Ac kWs back into
> the E-Cat to maintain it in power mode while using the excess Ac kWs
> generation to light up a few BIG lights and leave it running for a few
> days. We then have a E-Cat proof system in a 20 ft container that we can
> demo to conservative politicians and power industry guys. The rest will be
> history.
>


That would be good.  When do you expect delivery of the E-cat portion of
the system?

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Aussie Guy E-Cat]

We are working with Rossi to put together a diathermic oil E-Cat system, 
feeding a heat engine system that will deliver Ac kWs from the heated 
diathermic oil. We will then feed enough of the generated Ac kWs back 
into the E-Cat to maintain it in power mode while using the excess Ac 
kWs generation to light up a few BIG lights and leave it running for a 
few days. We then have a E-Cat proof system in a 20 ft container that we 
can demo to conservative politicians and power industry guys. The rest 
will be history.


AG


On 11/25/2011 11:05 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
Aussie Guy E-Cat > wrote:


We don't know that was what went down.


Nothing much went down. I would have heard from Hagelstein and others 
if anything interesting had happened. I do not think there are any 
secret arrangements underway. Elected officials do not make secret 
business arrangements.


Rossi said "no tests." That was the end of the conversation. No sane 
elected official would endorse a technical claim or move to allocate 
state funding to Rossi without testing. That is unthinkable.


I understand why Rossi does not want tests. He is trying to keep his 
results ambiguous. However, until he decides to allow tests, he should 
not visit elected officials and waste their time. He should not waste 
Hagelstein's time. He damn well should have known they cannot do 
business with him without tests.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Mary Yugo]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Mary Yugo  wrote:
>
> Complete nonsense.  That issue is easily solved by black box testing using
>> a reliable and trusted friend of cold fusion or a university laboratory
>> with secret clearance.
>>
>
> You misunderstand. The technical issues would be resolved, but this would
> probably not help resolve his patent and intellectual property problems. It
> would probably make them worse. As McKubre says, Rossi is trying to keep
> things ambiguous to fend off the competition. 
>

I'm curious.  How do you think Rossi protects his IP when he sells 100 of
the E-cats in a batch to an unnamed client.   Do you think he can be
assured that nobody at that client's establishment (and it would have to be
of some size to accomodate and test much less use a megawatt generator) --
do you think nobody there will want to earn megabucks by stealing Rossi's
IP while Rossi isn't around?   The A-bomb's Manhattan Project was well
known and understood by the Russians through spies despite its
unprecedented secrecy as to the details of the "physics package" or bomb
core.  Even if the client is military, Rossi has no reason to think his
secrets are safe.  The only safe thing he could have done was nothing until
he had the patent protection.  If the client is private, any employee could
rip off Rossi, even if the company didn't it which would be far from
assured.  The risk is much greater than the risk involved in submitting a
proper patent app including disclosures and getting proper tests, neither
of which Rossi has ever done.

There is no smoking gun for fraud.  But Rossi behaves exactly and
consistently like free energy scammers who in the past ripped off millions
from investors.  The only difference is that he is bolder with what he
allows to be tested but he always sets rigid bounds that make the test
inconclusive-- he's just better and more clever at it than scammers like
Steorn.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jed Rothwell]

Aussie Guy E-Cat  wrote:

We don't know that was what went down.


Nothing much went down. I would have heard from Hagelstein and others if
anything interesting had happened. I do not think there are any secret
arrangements underway. Elected officials do not make secret business
arrangements.

Rossi said "no tests." That was the end of the conversation. No sane
elected official would endorse a technical claim or move to allocate state
funding to Rossi without testing. That is unthinkable.

I understand why Rossi does not want tests. He is trying to keep his
results ambiguous. However, until he decides to allow tests, he should not
visit elected officials and waste their time. He should not waste
Hagelstein's time. He damn well should have known they cannot do business
with him without tests.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jed Rothwell]

Mary Yugo  wrote:

Complete nonsense.  That issue is easily solved by black box testing using
> a reliable and trusted friend of cold fusion or a university laboratory
> with secret clearance.
>

You misunderstand. The technical issues would be resolved, but this would
probably not help resolve his patent and intellectual property problems. It
would probably make them worse. As McKubre says, Rossi is trying to keep
things ambiguous to fend off the competition.

Without a patent he will have nothing. He needs time to get a patent, get
more funding, and pull ahead of his competition.



> Why not trust a university to do a quick test with proper safeguards for
> the IP?   It happens all the time.
>

Because there would be no business advantage to doing this.



> The explanation also does not explain why Rossi did not take the advice of
> sympathetic people like Jed Rothwell to improve his test methods.
>

It does explain this. I agree with Mike McKubre and others about his
motivations.

Look, I do not think this is a good business strategy. I admit he faces a
tough situation with few good choices. However, you are completely wrong
when you say this is crazy behavior, or there is no reason for it, or it
is unprecedented. It makes sense as a business strategy. You may not like
it, but it makes sense. You apparently have little understanding of
business or intellectual property, so you probably do not understand why
this make sense.



> Equally relevant, there is no protection of IP whatever if Rossi really
> sold a system as he claims.
>

Yes, there is. Or there could be, anyway, with a patent pending and a good
sales contract. If he sold the reactors to the U.S. military he has nothing
to worry about. Those people are scrupulously honest, in my experience.


  In that instance, the customer can easily take apart the devices and
> submit them to analysis and reverse engineering.  If there are written
> agreements, it's low risk to break them, especially if it's done in a
> foreign country and far away.
>

This may be the case, but Rossi needs money. He has no good choices here.
It is between bad and worse. The rest of us are in no position to
second-guess his business strategy.



> The idea that secrecy motivates Rossi because of a need to protect IP is
> way less likely than that the motivation is simply that he's committing
> fraud.
>

You think that because you do not understand intellectual property and you
are predisposed to think it is fraud. There is no evidence of fraud here.
None whatever.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jouni Valkonen]

2011/11/25 Craig Brown :
> Rossi's behaviour with regards to blocking independent testing is explained
> by the fact that he's sitting on potentially the world's most valuable IP
> and doesn't have a US or European patent yet.
>

This is unfortunate but true point. The economical benefit for Rossi
to keep everything in secret is gargantuan. Because if he can keep
everything in secret he could come up with decisive technological
advantage and get long term dominant share in the markets with or
without patent protection.

This way he could gather several hundred gigadollar revenues,
depending on how fast he can scale up mass-production.

With this kind of Slim-like potential property, Rossi could do
whatever he wants to the world. If I were a Rossi, I would end all the
absolute poverty from the Earth, using ecat sales revenues to finance
global basic income. World is curious place, that sometimes single
ambitious person can do alone more than the rest of the world
population put together.

–Jouni

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Aussie Guy E-Cat]

I have not found any strange behavior in my commercial dealings with 
Rossi. I totally understand and accept what he asks of his customers and 
he accepts my requirements on him. I know he works 16 hours a day as I 
do (if needed) as there are about 8 hours a day when there is no almost 
immediate email response. The commercial offerings and terms he has made 
to me, TOTALLY eliminate any chance of fraud. I agree that he is wasting 
his time engaging type kickers and those in sheep's clothing asking for 
tests when all they really seek is to steal his IP.


AG


On 11/25/2011 9:47 AM, Alain dit le Cycliste wrote:

some peopl here imagin that rossi can be a scammer...
It does not seems credible, according tou his strange behavior itself.

if you try to profile him from his behavior, you find more a 
weak-paranoid style "persister" in process com.
He does not behave like the usual weak-sociopath style "promoter" in 
process com...


one can undestand his paranoid tendencies if you accept that he have 
fighet for his uncommon (crasy) idias, and have been screwed by the 
systems and some "good citizens" (mafia?) in his first business...


his visible oack of sociopathic skils, lack of seduction, commercial 
behavior, theatrical show, make him probably bad in manipulation, 
politic, and sale.


probably he have also a weak passive-agressive  style "rebel", that 
make hime choose "against everybody opinion" projects...

also making him break relationships in a lunatic way...


his behavior with defkalion, breaking, talking, telling how he tried 
to manipulate DGT... is a bit pathetic, between paranoia and teanager 
rebelion...


anyway to do that job, so long, so crazy, despite critics , persister 
and rebel competences are needed...


for a scam you need more sociopath carpet-saler.

his lack of rigor in communication and measures, mean a bad competence 
in obsessionnal  style "thinker" in proces com...


asuming my profiling is right, the behavior of rossi is quite logic.

I'm not suprised that he is bad in sale, in business relation, in 
measures...
however he is anoug stubborn and crazy to keep working on a suicidal 
project and succeed...
after that his weak paranoia (a bit  a kind of realism, knowing his 
situation) will make him secret, unstable partner...

other competences will make hime not a good engineer...

don't ask to someone who fight againt the systems for 20 years, and 
get to jail because of that, to be an easy man.



2011/11/24 Craig Brown mailto:cr...@overunity.co>>

Rossi's behaviour with regards to blocking independent testing is
explained by the fact that he's sitting on potentially the world's
most valuable IP and doesn't have a US or European patent yet. 
There is no need for the pseudosceptics to look for conspiracy

theories.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Alain dit le Cycliste]

some peopl here imagin that rossi can be a scammer...
It does not seems credible, according tou his strange behavior itself.

if you try to profile him from his behavior, you find more a weak-paranoid
style "persister" in process com.
He does not behave like the usual weak-sociopath style "promoter" in
process com...

one can undestand his paranoid tendencies if you accept that he have fighet
for his uncommon (crasy) idias, and have been screwed by the systems and
some "good citizens" (mafia?) in his first business...

his visible oack of sociopathic skils, lack of seduction, commercial
behavior, theatrical show, make him probably bad in manipulation, politic,
and sale.

probably he have also a weak passive-agressive  style "rebel", that make
hime choose "against everybody opinion" projects...
also making him break relationships in a lunatic way...


his behavior with defkalion, breaking, talking, telling how he tried to
manipulate DGT... is a bit pathetic, between paranoia and teanager
rebelion...

anyway to do that job, so long, so crazy, despite critics , persister and
rebel competences are needed...

for a scam you need more sociopath carpet-saler.

his lack of rigor in communication and measures, mean a bad competence in
obsessionnal  style "thinker" in proces com...

asuming my profiling is right, the behavior of rossi is quite logic.

I'm not suprised that he is bad in sale, in business relation, in
measures...
however he is anoug stubborn and crazy to keep working on a suicidal
project and succeed...
after that his weak paranoia (a bit  a kind of realism, knowing his
situation) will make him secret, unstable partner...
other competences will make hime not a good engineer...

don't ask to someone who fight againt the systems for 20 years, and get to
jail because of that, to be an easy man.


2011/11/24 Craig Brown 

> Rossi's behaviour with regards to blocking independent testing is
> explained by the fact that he's sitting on potentially the world's most
> valuable IP and doesn't have a US or European patent yet.  There is no need
> for the pseudosceptics to look for conspiracy theories.
>

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Mary Yugo]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Craig Brown  wrote:

> Rossi's behaviour with regards to blocking independent testing is
> explained by the fact that he's sitting on potentially the world's most
> valuable IP and doesn't have a US or European patent yet.  There is no need
> for the pseudosceptics to look for conspiracy theories.
>

Complete nonsense.  That issue is easily solved by black box testing using
a reliable and trusted friend of cold fusion or a university laboratory
with secret clearance.  And while Rossi would have to keep his hands and
instruments out of such tests, there is no reason why he or his people
could not be there to protect his IP during the testing.  I am sure he
doesn't sleep with a gun in front of his laboratory every night.  He also
doesn't build megawatt plants by himself.  So Rossi has to trust some
people.  Why not trust a university to do a quick test with proper
safeguards for the IP?   It happens all the time.

The explanation also does not explain why Rossi did not take the advice of
sympathetic people like Jed Rothwell to improve his test methods.

Equally relevant, there is no protection of IP whatever if Rossi really
sold a system as he claims.  In that instance, the customer can easily take
apart the devices and submit them to analysis and reverse engineering.  If
there are written agreements, it's low risk to break them, especially if
it's done in a foreign country and far away.  There is a lot of money to be
made by that sort of activity and without a doubt, someone will do it if
the E-cat is real and Rossi actually sells them.   Again, Rossi can't stand
guard in front of a customer's E-cat.  And agreements will not protect him,
especially absent a patent.

The idea that secrecy motivates Rossi because of a need to protect IP is
way less likely than that the motivation is simply that he's committing
fraud.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Charles Hope]

So far, nobody seems to be able to predict Rossi's actions as well as Mary can. 
The rest of us are stumped, but her hypothesis explains the behavior. 



On Nov 24, 2011, at 17:07, Aussie Guy E-Cat  wrote:

> We don't know that was what went down.
> 
> AG
> 
> 
> On 11/25/2011 8:03 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>> A friend wrote to me: "Only Andrea could meet with a senator to ask for 
>> financial incentives to build a factory and refuse to allow them to test, 
>> huh?"
>> 
>> - Jed
>> 
> 

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Aussie Guy E-Cat]

We don't know that was what went down.

AG


On 11/25/2011 8:03 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
A friend wrote to me: "Only Andrea could meet with a senator to ask 
for financial incentives to build a factory and refuse to allow them 
to test, huh?"


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jed Rothwell]

Marcello Vitale  wrote:


> Uh, Jed, MIT is private. Or maybe you meant UMass?


You are right. It is a 19th century "land grant" college, like Cornell.
Technically private but a lot of it is tied in with the state. (Cornell has
schools entirely funded by New York, and annual funding, and it offers
reduced tuition for New York state residents -- or it used to,anyway.)

So much of MIT is funded by the government I forgot that it is officially
private.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Alan Fletcher]

Heh!  When I was a Technical Manager at ITT our lab reported directly to Park 
Ave headquarters. 

Our new (we had 5 in as many years) technical director went to a critical 
meeting in Brussels, and came back gloating about how he had thrashed them.

A week later we were reporting to Brussels.

- Original Message - Rossi is old school Southern European and keeps 
his cards
> VERY close to his chest. Yanks blast everything all over the web. Very
> different styles of doing business.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Aussie Guy E-Cat]

I have read almost all the papers, looked very carefully at all the 
videos and photographs, observed how the mains power was applied and saw 
the Blue Box and E-Cat sat on tables that would eliminate any hidden 
external power source. There was a single mains connection to the Blue 
Box and the power being consumed via that power point was measured. If 
you take the time to look, you can see what I saw. Additionally had 
there not been ONE single Ni-H LENR research paper showing significant 
excess heat then I would be very skeptical. But that is NOT the case. 
There are more than ample papers that easily convince me that Ni-H LENR 
reactions are real. Going from the fact that Ni-H LENR reactions are 
real, it is not a big leap in faith that Rossi has worked since 2007 on 
enhancing the Ni-H reaction to the level he has produced today. It is so 
easy for you, who has probably never gotten your hands dirty in doing 
product development, to invent hypothetical BS to try to discredit the 
hard won yards of work Rossi and Focardi have done.


AG


On 11/25/2011 7:52 AM, Mary Yugo wrote:



On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat 
mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com>> wrote:


You are way beyond being an open minded doubter.


Why?  You have never seen an actual E-cat in person have you?  You 
have never touched one much less tested one?  What makes you so sure 
you will ever get one to test?  Nobody else has done an independent 
test *ever* and has reported on it.  Why are you special?

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jed Rothwell]

A friend wrote to me: "Only Andrea could meet with a senator to ask for
financial incentives to build a factory and refuse to allow them to test,
huh?"

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Mary Yugo]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat
wrote:

> You are way beyond being an open minded doubter.
>

Why?  You have never seen an actual E-cat in person have you?  You have
never touched one much less tested one?  What makes you so sure you will
ever get one to test?  Nobody else has done an independent test *ever* and
has reported on it.  Why are you special?

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Aussie Guy E-Cat]

You are way beyond being an open minded doubter.

AG


On 11/25/2011 7:40 AM, Mary Yugo wrote:



On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat 
mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com>> wrote:



BTW Rossi has no problems with me doing Black Box testing of a
E-Cat and he knows I'm on Vortex. It's real, so you doubters get
over it. You are wrong.


We "doubters" will only be wrong if you actually get an E-cat to 
test-- black box or otherwise.  Do you have a schedule yet?

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Mary Yugo]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat
wrote:

>
> BTW Rossi has no problems with me doing Black Box testing of a E-Cat and
> he knows I'm on Vortex. It's real, so you doubters get over it. You are
> wrong.
>

We "doubters" will only be wrong if you actually get an E-cat to test--
black box or otherwise.  Do you have a schedule yet?

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Aussie Guy E-Cat]

Jed we don't know what happened at those meetings. All you have revealed 
it what one person said. There is a LOT more going on here that has been 
revealed. Rossi is old school Southern European and keeps his cards VERY 
close to his chest. Yanks blast everything all over the web. Very 
different styles of doing business.


BTW Rossi has no problems with me doing Black Box testing of a E-Cat and 
he knows I'm on Vortex. It's real, so you doubters get over it. You are 
wrong.


AG


On 11/25/2011 12:21 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

Terry Blanton mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com>> wrote:

It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR
says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat.


I get that. I really do. But he was meeting with an elected official 
from the state of Massachusetts. A couple of miles away from the 
most prestigious university of technology in the world, run by the 
state. What did he expect the official to say? It was obvious they 
would ask him to have the reactors tested at MIT. Does Rossi or anyone 
else imagine that officials in Massachusetts will do business with 
him, or allow him to sell reactors, without first having MIT vet his 
claims? That's delusional!


If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have 
met with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Marcello Vitale]

Happy T-day to the US folk. Don't overdo it :-)))

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:54 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson <
orionwo...@charter.net> wrote:

> > Jed sez:
> >
> > > If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors,
> > > he should never have met
> > > with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste
> > > of everyone's time.
>
> I suspect Rossi would beg to differ. Seems to me that Rossi has always been
> operating on "Rossi time."
>
> > From Terry,
>
> > I dunno.  Assuming they paid for the ticket, it was a cheap way for
> > him to meet with his business buddies in NH.  :-)
>
> His ticket wuz paid for??? Wow! Sign me up! ;-)
>
> But more seriously, it seems more sensible for me to speculate that Rossi
> was on another one of his business fishing trips - feeling out the waters
> so
> to speak.
>
> Meanwhile, we all have a pretty good idea of what Rossi thinks of the
> so-called importance of achieving academic/scientific credibility. A great
> irony in all of this is the fact that achieving scientific credibility, for
> now, could actually end up hindering his current business plans, at least
> in
> the short term. That seems to be a potential modus operandi that might
> explain his eccentric behavior, a behavior that seems to drive certain Vort
> members (and the scientific community) to distraction. ;-)
>
> Meanwhile, we all wait with baited breath to see what kind of a dog and
> pony
> show Defkalion plans on unveiling soon... to a theatre near you. Will they
> impress us, or disappoint us? We have been disappointed so many times
> before. I'm sure we probably are in store for more disappointment before
> the
> fat lady finally gets on stage to sing.
>
> In the meantime I recommend that at least for today we all sit at the table
> and pass the meat and gravy amongst each other, secure in the knowledge
> that
> the adventure continues.
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> www.zazzle.com/orionworks
>
>

RE: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

> Jed sez:
> 
> > If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors,
> > he should never have met
> > with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste
> > of everyone's time.

I suspect Rossi would beg to differ. Seems to me that Rossi has always been
operating on "Rossi time."

> From Terry,

> I dunno.  Assuming they paid for the ticket, it was a cheap way for
> him to meet with his business buddies in NH.  :-)

His ticket wuz paid for??? Wow! Sign me up! ;-)

But more seriously, it seems more sensible for me to speculate that Rossi
was on another one of his business fishing trips - feeling out the waters so
to speak. 

Meanwhile, we all have a pretty good idea of what Rossi thinks of the
so-called importance of achieving academic/scientific credibility. A great
irony in all of this is the fact that achieving scientific credibility, for
now, could actually end up hindering his current business plans, at least in
the short term. That seems to be a potential modus operandi that might
explain his eccentric behavior, a behavior that seems to drive certain Vort
members (and the scientific community) to distraction. ;-)
 
Meanwhile, we all wait with baited breath to see what kind of a dog and pony
show Defkalion plans on unveiling soon... to a theatre near you. Will they
impress us, or disappoint us? We have been disappointed so many times
before. I'm sure we probably are in store for more disappointment before the
fat lady finally gets on stage to sing.

In the meantime I recommend that at least for today we all sit at the table
and pass the meat and gravy amongst each other, secure in the knowledge that
the adventure continues.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Marcello Vitale]

Jed said
".But he was meeting with an elected official from the state
of Massachusetts. A couple of miles away from the most prestigious
university of technology in the world, run by the state."

Uh, Jed, MIT is private. Or maybe you meant UMass?

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Terry Blanton  wrote:
>
> It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR
>> says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat.
>>
>
> I get that. I really do. But he was meeting with an elected official from
> the state of Massachusetts. A couple of miles away from the
> most prestigious university of technology in the world, run by the state.
> What did he expect the official to say? It was obvious they would ask him
> to have the reactors tested at MIT. Does Rossi or anyone else imagine that
> officials in Massachusetts will do business with him, or allow him to sell
> reactors, without first having MIT vet his claims? That's delusional!
>
> If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met
> with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Terry Blanton]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 8:51 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met
> with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time.

I dunno.  Assuming they paid for the ticket, it was a cheap way for
him to meet with his business buddies in NH.  :-)

T

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[James Bowery]

My question:  Did Sen. Bruce Tarr ask Rossi any questions to which Rossi
provided surprising (to B. Tarr) answers?

When an attorney calls a witness, he knows the answers before he asks the
questions.  The same applies to public hearings where an elected official
invests his political capital in calling a witness.  It is understandable,
perhaps, why Hagelstein didn't act as an attorney or politician, and Rossi
was open to give him a surprising answer (even though it was consistent
with his other recent statements).

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Someone from Boston just called me to say that Rossi met with Peter
> Hagelstein at the state capital, and Rossi said exactly what he's been
> saying all along:
>
> "No more tests. Let the customers decide. Etc."
>
> Peter offered to do a pure black box tests but Rossi turned him down.
>
> In other words it was a waste of time and an embarrassment. The state
> representative probably regrets he ever heard of the man.
>
> Why did Rossi even go? What was he thinking?
>
> He does at least make it clear that he cannot reveal anything about this
> because he has no patent. He does not actually say "I do not want
> widespread publicity because I have no patent -- I want to cash in while I
> can" but I am pretty sure that is what he is thinking. What else? He is
> between a rock and a hard place.
>
> On a different subject . . . Assuming Rossi actually did sell that one
> megawatt react to someone in the US, it is likely to be the US military. No
> other entity would think of operating a nuclear reactor of unknown etiology
> without a permit and without any UL certification.
>
> Rossi's statement that there will be "no more testing" is ridiculous.
> Before he sells to ordinary customers there will have to be a ton of
> testing by UL and many safety agencies, as I have often pointed out.
> Defkalion understands this. They have often cited the need for thorough
> testing and approval before they can begin selling.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Daniel Rocha]

That is really a stain in his reputation, at least for a few months. I was
going to put my name in the 10K e-cat market research... Not anymore. It
doesn't matter if he really has something real if he cannot prove that he
can provide a reliable, functional and safe product.

2011/11/24 Jed Rothwell 

>
> If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met
> with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time.
>
> - Jed
>
>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Rich Murray]

but good way to generate PR that will attract more credulous investors
-- strike a bold pose of independence, thumbing nose at the
establishment... just helping Mary Yugo...

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:51 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Terry Blanton  wrote:
>>
>> It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR
>> says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat.
>
> I get that. I really do. But he was meeting with an elected official from
> the state of Massachusetts. A couple of miles away from the most prestigious
> university of technology in the world, run by the state. What did he expect
> the official to say? It was obvious they would ask him to have the reactors
> tested at MIT. Does Rossi or anyone else imagine that officials in
> Massachusetts will do business with him, or allow him to sell reactors,
> without first having MIT vet his claims? That's delusional!
> If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met
> with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time.
> - Jed
>

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jed Rothwell]

Terry Blanton  wrote:

It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR
> says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat.
>

I get that. I really do. But he was meeting with an elected official from
the state of Massachusetts. A couple of miles away from the
most prestigious university of technology in the world, run by the state.
What did he expect the official to say? It was obvious they would ask him
to have the reactors tested at MIT. Does Rossi or anyone else imagine that
officials in Massachusetts will do business with him, or allow him to sell
reactors, without first having MIT vet his claims? That's delusional!

If Rossi does not want MIT to test his reactors, he should never have met
with state officials. It was an embarrassing waste of everyone's time.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Aussie Guy E-Cat]

As a potential purchaser, I have had no problems with Rossi agreeing for 
us to test our E-Cat. $2m is pocket change for MIT. I suggest there a 
lot more that went on than what has been revealed. Many US based LENR 
firms will be doing everything they can, calling up all their IOUs to 
slow Rossi down. It is just business after all.


AG


On 11/24/2011 7:35 PM, Michele Comitini wrote:

I wish Peter Hagelstein replied: "That's OK, Mr Rossi, fine! No more
public test!  Let me put it this way: would you let me test before buy
as you advertise?!".
That would have put AR in the corner, no escape.  Is MIT afraid of
being fouled ending up paying $2M for a scam?  If it works those $2M
would have been a great investment.
Business 101... All of this seems a drama where actors keep forgetting
the script!

mic


2011/11/24 Terry Blanton:

It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR
says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat.

Rossi realizes it and is pumping (intended) out as many as he can
hoping to make his nest egg.

If all is real, Rossi will not get a patent here, but he could likely
make a few million before the pipeline gets clogged with competitors.

I understand what he is doing and recommend he continues.  If all this
is really real, the window for AR will close in a few months.

T

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Michele Comitini]

I wish Peter Hagelstein replied: "That's OK, Mr Rossi, fine! No more
public test!  Let me put it this way: would you let me test before buy
as you advertise?!".
That would have put AR in the corner, no escape.  Is MIT afraid of
being fouled ending up paying $2M for a scam?  If it works those $2M
would have been a great investment.
Business 101... All of this seems a drama where actors keep forgetting
the script!

mic


2011/11/24 Terry Blanton :
> It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR
> says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat.
>
> Rossi realizes it and is pumping (intended) out as many as he can
> hoping to make his nest egg.
>
> If all is real, Rossi will not get a patent here, but he could likely
> make a few million before the pipeline gets clogged with competitors.
>
> I understand what he is doing and recommend he continues.  If all this
> is really real, the window for AR will close in a few months.
>
> T
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Mary Yugo]

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 11:36 PM, Marcello Vitale  wrote:
> I agree with Terry on this. I see no other way for Rossi to make money than
> to try to sell as many big items as he can before somebody much better than
> him at manufacturing comes into the game. Anything else is a distraction.

Let me see if I understand this.  It's as if Jonas Salk should have
insisted on making little batches of polio vaccine in his lab and
selling them to protect millionaire's families from polio rather than
giving the vaccine to large companies so everyone could have it?  Salk
became a millionaire of course and his institute in La Jolla,
California is now world renown for biomedical research and the
recipient of hundreds of millions of dollars in grants.  Hardly a loss
for Salk.

If Rossi really has table top fusion at a practical level, it is
idiotic to sell the clumsy, leaky, bizarre and "kludgy" looking
devices he has shown thus far.  They guarantee that a buyer will take
one apart and reverse engineer it or leak the secrets for big bucks.
 He should ally himself with a rich protector and go for the gold.  If
he has something, of course, and it's a mighty big if at this point.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Marcello Vitale]

I agree with Terry on this. I see no other way for Rossi to make money than
to try to sell as many big items as he can before somebody much better than
him at manufacturing comes into the game. Anything else is a distraction.

I'll add that corporations go to statehouses to ask for tax breaks :-.
It was MIT that should not have been there, throwing a wrench in the
well-oiled machine of public officials' lobbying. Killjoys :-((

Ah, and as far as certification: no radioactive materials appear to be
used. In first approximation, it would fall under the domain of the various
nuclear safety agencies only if SIGNIFICANT amounts of ionizing radiation
are emitted. The old cathode tube TVs never did. The shielding from the
screen was sufficient.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Mary Yugo]

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> I cannot understand why he does these things!
I can.

> Well, at least he is consistent.
About that he is.  On other things he's consistently inconsistent.

> I am sure that Rossi reactors scaled for home use will require UL
> certification. You will not be able to buy home insurance without it.

I don't think UL or any other consumer certification applies to any
type of nuclear reactor or a device that requires a nuclear reaction.
Maybe it's OK for tiny amounts of radiation as in fire alarms.

I'm not sure how commercial neutron generators (which can be
hazardous), civilian nuclear reactors for ships (there was IIRC at
least one) and such things as medical therapy radiation machines are
regulated but I'd imagine it'd fall to whatever agency does that sort
of thing.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Terry Blanton]

It might not be so confusing if one realizes, assuming all is as AR
says, he has a very narrow window to make money off his eCat.

Rossi realizes it and is pumping (intended) out as many as he can
hoping to make his nest egg.

If all is real, Rossi will not get a patent here, but he could likely
make a few million before the pipeline gets clogged with competitors.

I understand what he is doing and recommend he continues.  If all this
is really real, the window for AR will close in a few months.

T

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jouni Valkonen]

2011/11/23 Jed Rothwell :
> Someone from Boston just called me to say that Rossi met with Peter
> Hagelstein at the state capital, and Rossi said exactly what he's been
> saying all along:
> "No more tests. Let the customers decide. Etc."
>
> Peter offered to do a pure black box tests but Rossi turned him down.
>
> In other words it was a waste of time and an embarrassment. The state
> representative probably regrets he ever heard of the man.
>
> Why did Rossi even go? What was he thinking?


Indeed this is a puzzle. Right now it seems that if Defkalion is
anything more than big words, then there might be the saddest thing
possible for Rossi that Defkalion steals the show with first public
validation test of commercial scale cold fusion reactor. And Rossi is
just mentioned in reference notes. Also Ahern and Miles may be ready
to steal the credits from Rossi.

I think that Rossi has went just too far with his commercial market
oriented philosophy. It was good idea to fix the errors of Fleischmann
and come into publicity only with proper proofs for commercial
validity of the technology, but enough is enough. He should have
published everything in October.

   –Jouni

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson]

>From Jed

>  ... Maybe there is more to it. I just heard this in a 5-minute phone call.
> Summary: He said the same stuff he has been saying all along in his blog
> and in the magazines.
> Well, at least he is consistent.

IMHO, (and granted it might be an incorrect opinion) I can't help but
speculate that Rossi didn't go there just to turn Hagelstein's offer
down. Since Rossi has continued to be stalwart in his refusal to
perform science on his technology - methinks there probably IS more to
this stew than a snub. I suspect Rossi's stew involves fishing around
for additional corporate interest. I wonder if any nibbled.

"Follow the money!"

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jed Rothwell]

OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson  wrote:


> I'm puzzled. Maybe I missed something crucial about the itinerary.
> I thought one of the reasons Rossi went was to see if he could to drum up
> some corporate interest in his technology for the state of Massachusetts.
>

I do not know why he went, but his conduct will win him the Frozen Boot
Award.

I cannot understand why he does these things!

I have not heard from Peter Hagelstein. Not sure I want to. Poor Peter!
Imagine being subjected to that in front of a state representative. I would
be mortified.

Maybe there is more to it. I just heard this in a 5-minute phone call.
Summary: He said the same stuff he has been saying all along in his blog
and in the magazines.

Well, at least he is consistent.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson]

>From Jed:

...

> Why did Rossi even go? What was he thinking?
> He does at least make it clear that he cannot reveal anything about this
> because he has no patent. He does not actually say "I do not want widespread
> publicity because I have no patent -- I want to cash in while I can" but I
> am pretty sure that is what he is thinking. What else? He is between a rock
> and a hard place.

I'm puzzled. Maybe I missed something crucial about the itinerary. I
thought one of the reasons Rossi went was to see if he could to drum
up some corporate interest in his technology for the state of
Massachusetts.

"Sign'a here, please!"

If so, I wonder if any corporate interests were present. I wonder if
any were interested kicking a few tires for themselves.

Just wondering.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Akira Shirakawa]

On 2011-11-23 22:31, Jed Rothwell wrote:

Someone from Boston just called me to say that Rossi met with Peter
Hagelstein at the state capital, and Rossi said exactly what he's been
saying all along:


I actually had some hope for this meeting. It looks like I'll have to 
lower my expectations next time. But surely this isn't the whole story, 
is it? I doubt Rossi went there just to say hello.


Cheers,
S.A.

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Jed Rothwell]

I do not know if the UL certifies industrial boilers, but I am sure 
someone does.


It seems they do small scale generators, maybe not the biggies:

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/energy/power/microturbines/tests/

I am sure that Rossi reactors scaled for home use will require UL 
certification. You will not be able to buy home insurance without it.


Certification is not a magic wand that automatically prevents problems. 
Someone certified the Fukushima reactors and the seawall.


- Jed