Thanks Patrick and apologies for casting aspertions. Do you know yet,
when stock will arrive in the UK to fulfill orders place with official
distributors?
--
Fifer
Fifer's Profile:
CardinalFang;142516 Wrote:
But we do have the means to do it, it would just be prohibitively
expensive! Think of the measuring gear used in military listening
devices or all manner of scientific measuring equipment in physics labs
that require incredible fidelity. They cost billions to
opaqueice;142685 Wrote:
Honest buck? I don't think so. And if you think that's OK, I suggest
you read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair - would you like to go back to the
days when there was no regulation of food or drugs, and snake-oil
salesmen went around selling cure-alls to suckers? That's
I even wanted to give up the Squeezebox altogether cause of gap
problems.
Believe me, flac now is gapless.
--
Wombat
Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113
View this thread:
opaqueice;142685 Wrote:
Honest buck? I don't think so. And if you think that's OK, I suggest
you read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair - would you like to go back to the
days when there was no regulation of food or drugs, and snake-oil
salesmen went around selling cure-alls to suckers? That's
jmourik;142658 Wrote:
I'm looking into upgrading my system, but don't know where to start...
Current system:
- Denon AVR-4800
- Mission 776 speakers, BW center and surround speakers
- SB2
- Toshiba dvd player
Considering:
- Outlaw (990 or 970) + 7125? or 1070???
- Maybe new front
Nikhil;142687 Wrote:
Transporter, shmansporter I think we're all going about this
audiophile business in a wrong way.
here is the solution to all our woes
http://creative.com/products/product.asp?category=209subcategory=668product=15913
Check out the awesome graph. Can the
95bcwh;142702 Wrote:
A pointless thread, all begins with people thrashing things that they
have never listened to, imposing their own egoistic viewpoint, their
self-perceived sense of superiority and expect the rest of the world to
follow.
Well for my part, I hope I contributed sound
PhilNYC;142688 Wrote:
I would think that the design is coming to address all of the TaCT users
on this forum. My guess is something that would allow you to send the
digital-out signal to a digital processor like a TacT, then take the
digital-out from the processor back to the digital-in on
This thread has highlighted an important point: people disagree, and
often do so irrationally. Of the 'sides' we have (objective vs
subjective, perhaps), neither is really willing to listen to what the
other really has to say, and life is kinda like that.
It reminds me of someone's signature I
adamslim;142759 Wrote:
This thread has highlighted an important point: people disagree, and
often do so irrationally. Of the 'sides' we have (objective vs
subjective, perhaps), neither is really willing to listen to what the
other really has to say, and life is kinda like that.
I really
We have all brands of Mobile Phones,Ipods,Sidekicks,Nextels
phone,Laptops for sell at cheap and
affordable prices, they ranges from Nokia/Samsung/LG/Sony
Ericsson/Motorola/Alcatel/panasonic With Bluetooth, all
Brands and Models of Nextel Phones, we want you to get back
to us with your quote
It's got an X-Fi 24-bit Crystalizer and CNSS 3-D! Looks like the
Tranporter's already obsolete ...
--
Fifer
Fifer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=639
View this thread:
OMG is that for real? someone tell me this is a spoof site!!
--
mattybain
'[image:
http://imagegen.last.fm/recenttracks3/recenttracks/MattyBain.gif]'
(http://www.last.fm/user/MattyBain/?chartstyle=recenttracks3)
TiredLegs;142070 Wrote:
$485 for a little wooden knob?! For that much, they should at least give
you the whole beech tree. They do, but the extra charge is to convert the
rest of the tree to
shavings to pack the knob in.
--
SteveC
radish;142609 Wrote:
I loved my t-amp until it went bang and melted, taking it's PSU and a
channel on my mixer with it :( I'm sure it was a freak occurance but I
haven't bought a replacement.
Eek, that wouldn't be good! Anyone who's seen a photo of my bedroom
setup could see the problems
CardinalFang;142762 Wrote:
I really object to that if you are including me in that sweeping
statement. I for one never tried to shut anyone down with irrational
statements and I was more than happy for someone to prove me wrong.
Sean backs up his statements with product that impresses with
I wouldn't consider the SB3 an upgrade if you already have an SB2.
Also, the DAC in the Transporter wouldn't make a difference when run
through the Denon, unless in 2 channel bypass mode.
--
Skunk
Skunk's Profile:
P Floding;142737 Wrote:
I have lived in a semi-socialist country, so I know a bit about
over-regulation and its negative effects. Only things that can hurt you
need be regulated. If you want to hurt yourself in the wallet by
purchasing stuff purely based on the sellers hype -then you must be
enhancing the highs and lows
Voices are centered in front of you
feel like you're sitting in with your favorite band
It restores the details, expands the music
X-Fi? Bah, humbug. I want XXX-Fi, a system so good it faithfully
reproduces Christina Aguilera doing a table dance just for me ;)
Yes, didn't make that clear, the sb2 is really in my bedroom, but I move it to my main system on occasion. Which is too much hassle, so I want an sb3 or transporter.I haven't done any contact cleaning, no. Or fancy cabling...
jan
___
audiophiles mailing
jmourik;142658 Wrote:
- Denon AVR-4800
- Mission 776 speakers, BW center and surround speakers
- SB2
- Toshiba dvd player
Were I in your situation, I would separate the audio from the AV -
that's my angle: I use a stereo system with an 8' projector :)
So that would involve getting a
Is there an amp you can plug more than one thing into? (SB + pre-outs of
an HT system's L/R, for instance)
--
joncourage
joncourage's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2837
View this thread:
joncourage;142824 Wrote:
Is there an amp you can plug more than one thing into? (SB + pre-outs of
an HT system's L/R, for instance)
I would probably suggest an integrated, as the volume might be useful
with the SB2. Although I have not yet tried to determine the sonic
impact of the digital
Good reminder about the vol control on the SB. Thanks.
--
joncourage
joncourage's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2837
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28256
Well said.
CardinalFang;142762 Wrote:
I really object to that if you are including me in that sweeping
statement. I for one never tried to shut anyone down with irrational
statements and I was more than happy for someone to prove me wrong.
Sean backs up his statements with product that
jmourik;142658 Wrote:
I'm looking into upgrading my system, but don't know where to start...
Current system:
- Denon AVR-4800
- Mission 776 speakers, BW center and surround speakers
- SB2
- Toshiba dvd player
Interesting... I have a very similar set up. Denon AVR-4802 and
Mission
Walleyefisher;142663 Wrote:
Greg - I found the other posting about issues with the sirius plugin. I
realized that since I updated to 6.5 I didn't kill the built in WMA.
That was my problem all along. Thank you for your support and I'm
happily listening to the 128k stream which is a
On Oct 4, 2006, at 9:56 AM, GoCubs wrote:
Walleyefisher;142663 Wrote:
Greg - I found the other posting about issues with the sirius
plugin. I
realized that since I updated to 6.5 I didn't kill the built in WMA.
That was my problem all along. Thank you for your support and I'm
happily
On Oct 4, 2006, at 10:03 AM, Andy Grundman wrote:
On Oct 4, 2006, at 9:56 AM, GoCubs wrote:
Walleyefisher;142663 Wrote:
Greg - I found the other posting about issues with the sirius
plugin. I
realized that since I updated to 6.5 I didn't kill the built in WMA.
That was my problem all
adamslim;142759 Wrote:
neither is really willing to listen to what the other really has to say,
and life is kinda like that.
I don't listen to what people say, I don't fall for the claims of any
modders, I don't listen to measurement either. I LISTEN to the
product with my own ear, every
Andy Grundman;142851 Wrote:
I should say that yes I know of the existing bug report but the WMA
handling since 6.3.1 has changed a lot so we need a new log.
Sure thing. I've gone ahead and attached to the bug
(http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3001) current log output
using the
I hope to have most of the backlog gone by end of next week. This is a
hope, not a commitment.
Patrick
--
patrick
patrick's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6
View this thread:
I guess the question is what are you trying to acomplish and at what $$$
Everything you have and I'm not trying to be rude is pretty mid fi (
except the Denon which is a good home theater receiver , but not a
great sounding amplifier) if I was trying to redo the system I'd start
with auditioning
I'm new here but have been doing audio for a LONG time both as a hobby
and as a living. I my opinion and I'm not humble about this :-) the
sound quality of these units is the same as it's always been.. it all
about the power supply and the analog stage, period. If one thinks
there are
If Bolder, RW Audio and others had not experimented with different
modifications and improved power supplies we might still be stuck with
just the original unmodified SB. I believe because of their efforts
Sean was spurred to create the Transporter because he realized that
their mods worked and
rajacat;142874 Wrote:
If Bolder, RW Audio and others had not experimented with different
modifications and improved power supplies we might still be stuck with
just the original unmodified SB. I believe because of their efforts
Sean was spurred to create the Transporter because he realized
ErikM;142873 Wrote:
I'm new here but have been doing audio for a LONG time both as a hobby
and as a living. I my opinion and I'm not humble about this :-) the
sound quality of these units is the same as it's always been.. it all
about the power supply and the analog stage, period. If one
tyler_durden;142877 Wrote:
I think it more likely he saw that there was a market for a $2K player
and decided to get into that market. Now he has to deal with all the
usual problems of people who don't know about computers trying to make
the thing work, plus he has to deal with looney
No I'm not. Since the Transporter has better power supplies and I assume
a cleaner, lower jitter output, I believe it will be a better
Transport I do believe that going into the same out board DAC using a
Transporter and a SB3 the Transporter should sound better. But there
won't be as big a
i'm trying to go from mid fi to mid + fi. this system will be used for
both stereo and home theater. from the components i'm considering you
can see how much i'm willing to pay! thanks for the suggestions!
On 10/4/06, ErikM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I guess the question is what are you trying
ErikM;142873 Wrote:
How about a Transporter built by Meridian.. Now that would be state of
the art sound!
I was chatting to a sales guy from Meridian recently and he said that
they all had Squeezeboxes, and they had loads around the factory. I
wonder what we'll be seeing from them soon? :)
rajacat;142882 Wrote:
Have you compared a Bolder modded SB and power supply to an unmodded
one? If you haven't your opinion really doesn't mean much and is not a
point of view of a rational person. Just one more mindless Slimdevice
fanboy.
Is it really necessary to be insulting?
BTW I am
I can garentee it will sound amazing...
--
ErikM
ErikM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7576
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28126
tomjtx;142891 Wrote:
Is it really necessary to be insulting?
BTW I am somewhere between the 2 camps. I have a Bolder modded Elpac
and I heard a big difference, but I also think there is a lot of
chicanery out there and blind tests can be a good guide.
He's just returning the favor, the
rajacat;142874 Wrote:
If Bolder, RW Audio and others had not experimented with different
modifications and improved power supplies we might still be stuck with
just the original unmodified SB. I believe because of their efforts
Sean was spurred to create the Transporter because he realized
Start with the speakers! ( front mains first) Lots of good ones..
Vandersteen, Proac, BW, Thiel, Focal, Dynaudio.. Just to name a few..
Once you find the ones you love add electronics that compliment them,
not just drive them. Then source, then cables, and powerline
conditioning. The trick to a
Audio reproduction is only as good as its weakest link, so deciding what
to upgrade depends on which component is most limiting your current
system.
In my own systems over the decades, speaker upgrades have made the most
obvious improvements. The magnitude of difference between various
speakers
seanadams;142899 Wrote:
Magic Pebbles:
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina17.htm
There's science! They must work! Where's my credit card!!!
--
adamslim
SB3 and Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859,
Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost cables
seanadams;142899 Wrote:
That is absolute bullshit. Transporter incorporates none of those ideas
and I have no reason to believe any of them work any better than these
Magic Pebbles:
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina17.htm
The only idea to come directly out of the mod community
jan van mourik;142822 Wrote:
Yes, didn't make that clear, the sb2 is really in my bedroom, but I move
it
to my main system on occasion. Which is too much hassle, so I want an
sb3 or
transporter.
I haven't done any contact cleaning, no. Or fancy cabling...
jan
No! No fancy cabling!
95bcwh;142859 Wrote:
The other side, so-called objective folks, they based their opinion on
measurement. They think that there's 100% correlation between
measurement and good sound. They believe that they have a moral high
ground because measurement said so. So they pick on people that they
Anybody wishing to find out more about the Jung super reg topology
should check out Walt's regulator articles here:
http://waltjung.org/Regs.html
In Sean's earlier post, he mentioned that Andrew Weekes helped him with
the super reg design. Andrew is well known over at diyaudio.com for
having
My advice is the same to anyone: find a complete system that you just
fall in love with, and work towards that. If you just audition one
component at a time, you will never stop upgrading.
There are huge differences between systems, so listen to as many as you
can, and you will find one that
P Floding;142904 Wrote:
But isn't it the case that the very existence of modders (private or
commercial) has been a factor in deciding that the Transporter is a
feasible product?
Transporter is targeted to the high end market. Modders are a tiny
portion of that. I have no problem with people
Transporter mods:
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PRODProduct_Code=SDTransporterCategory_Code=MODSProduct_Count=44
--
jhm731
jhm731's Profile:
jhm731;142923 Wrote:
Transporter mods:
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PRODProduct_Code=SDTransporterCategory_Code=MODSProduct_Count=44
Unless you know him, or unless he offers money back guarantee, you will
be insane to fall for it.
--
95bcwh
seanadams;142919 Wrote:
Of course, I listen all the time. There are many things that are easy
to hear but hard to measure, particularly with respect to the codec
algorithms. However, I don't design the products to satisfy my own
subjective preferences. When it comes to the DAC, things like
ErikM;142890 Wrote:
I can garentee it will sound amazing...
I am pretty much convinced that eventually we will see a series of
wireless transporter from CARY, Ayre, Merridian, Esotericwith price
ranging from $2000 to $5!!
--
95bcwh
Here is more Xmod
http://www.denguru.com/2005/07/05/creative/
--
77dzu
77dzu's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5329
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28260
jhm731;142923 Wrote:
Transporter mods:
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PRODProduct_Code=SDTransporterCategory_Code=MODSProduct_Count=44
Oh, c'mon now. No reason to wave a red cape in Sean's face -- an
earlier post already got him to display an
jhm731;142923 Wrote:
Transporter mods:
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PRODProduct_Code=SDTransporterCategory_Code=MODSProduct_Count=44
This is where my skeptical side takes over. How have they had the time
to evaluate the stock Tranporter, let alone each of
seanadams;142919 Wrote:
There are many things that are easy to hear but hard to measure,
particularly with respect to the codec algorithms.
That's an interesting comment - surely codec algorithms are fairly
standardised and it's down to a good implementation that can supply
correctly decoded
CardinalFang;142941 Wrote:
That's an interesting comment - surely codec algorithms are fairly
standardised and it's down to a good implementation that can supply
correctly decoded data at the appropriate time for the DAC. Are there
that many variables in implementations or are you listening
jhm731;142498 Wrote:
Can anyone on this forum hear 5-10 db differences at a -130db noise
floor?
Has anyone compared the DAC-1 to the DAC section of the Transporter?
I actually did exactly this prior to going to the CEDIA show. This is
obviously going to sound like shameless marketing, but
seanadams;142943 Wrote:
Not so much the math - certainly you don't mod and MPEG decoder in the
same way you would a power supply or something. What I'm talking about
is listening for glitches, dropped samples, misaligned data, different
kinds of buffer issues, etc. There is a whole bunch of
Jez;142946 Wrote:
I actually did exactly this prior to going to the CEDIA show. This is
obviously going to sound like shameless marketing, but I was concerned
that with my cloth ears I wouldn't be able to hear any difference . .
so I wanted get the facts before engaging sales BS mode ;-)
CardinalFang;142920 Wrote:
That sound like ideal hunting grounds for a lawyer! Someone surely is
going to buy one and then slap down the law suit when they don't hear
all that stuff...
The graph is amazing though. I've tried measuring my experience before,
but the tape measure keeps
P Floding;142957 Wrote:
Did you try just connecting one source at a time to the speakers to see
if it made any difference to sound quality?
No. I'm afraid it was all a bit of a 'quick and dirty' test based on
what kit we had to hand and how much time I had access to the
Transporter for. We
Jez;142968 Wrote:
No. I'm afraid it was all a bit of a 'quick and dirty' test based on
what kit we had to hand and how much time I had access to the
Transporter for. We are setting up a serious listening room here in
Mountain View so I'm very excited to hear how everything sounds through
a
flattop100 wrote:
I'm a live sound engineer. We have a slogan for these types of
situations.
'You can't polish a turd, no matter how hard you try.'
Here in Yorkshire, UK, we have a more succinct turn of phrase:
Shit in, shit out.
R.
___
jhm731;142923 Wrote:
Transporter mods:
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PRODProduct_Code=SDTransporterCategory_Code=MODSProduct_Count=44
Funny. These mods over there exchange the OPs for pretty noisy AD825. I
won´t comment the sound but the excellent
jeffluckett;142959 Wrote:
See ... this is what I was saying in that other thread about published
data. Creative (a reputable company ... or at least they used to be)
is publishing garbage data to make thier product look like a
first-class turd polisher.
My guess is what they've built is a
WSLam;142527 Wrote:
Two of my friends just came over to listen to my setup today.
We compared the Transporter Analog out to DCC2 SE Preamp vs Transporter
AES out to DCC2 SE DAC + Clocked.
They both felt that the difference is so minute... and in some cases,
they like the Transporter
CardinalFang;143005 Wrote:
My guess is what they've built is a filter that spatialises stereo by
using a comb filter or HRT transforms then does some reverb and other
filtering to make it sound impressive. It ends up being very tiring to
listen to and a novelty to be played back through
P Floding;143013 Wrote:
The problem is that most people (99%?) have never heard an even
half-decent system, and think that anything that sounds a bit different
to their crappy stuff is fantastic.
Bose and Bang and Olufsen also spring to mind as companies that have
products that present audio
Wombat;142999 Wrote:
Funny. These mods over there exchange the OPs for pretty noisy AD825. I
can´t comment the sound but the excellent measurements Sean reached are
surely gone after this :)
You will be surprised, what noise can do to your mid range. Depending
on the degree of noisiness it
95bcwh;143024 Wrote:
You will be surprised, what noise can do to your mid range. Depending on
the degree of noisiness it introduce to your system, it can make your
mid range fuller, while sacrificing a little bit of top end
transparency, sacrificing a little bit of bottom end tightness, if
I have some LM6172 in the output of my DAC. They are noisy also in
relation to others.
--
Wombat
Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113
View this thread:
95bcwh;143024 Wrote:
If measurement is the only truth that's worth pursuing, I wonder why
manufacturers still need to send their gears for review. Why
Stereophile still bothered with listening, might as well just get all
the measurements, and use them to rank every piece of equipments.
95bcwh;143024 Wrote:
You will be surprised, what noise can do to your mid range. Depending on
the degree of noisiness it introduce to your system, it can make your
mid range fuller, while sacrificing a little bit of top end
transparency, sacrificing a little bit of bottom end tightness, if
Hello,
I have a friend who has bought a squeezebox and want to use it in his
living room. His problem is that both he and his wife are allergic to
cables!
They have a reasonably OK Yamaha amplifier they wants to use, but as
the speakers are to be placed on each side of a fireplace, there isn't
tomsi42;143037 Wrote:
Hello,
I have a friend who has bought a squeezebox and want to use it in his
living room. His problem is that both he and his wife are allergic to
cables!
They have a reasonably OK Yamaha amplifier they wants to use, but as
the speakers are to be placed on each
CardinalFang;143031 Wrote:
Noise has a use in rounding off digital artifacts, but a higher noise
floor from an op-amp only masks detail if it is audible.
Have I said that adding noise increase details? I said, adding noise
SACRIFICE transparency, that means masking the details. I don't see
jeffluckett;143040 Wrote:
The problem with any active speaker is that you sound is now only as
good as the speaker's amplifier. It doesn't matter how good your
receiver or any other component in your system is ... sound degradation
can/will occur when the signal is modulated to RF (or IR in
tomsi42 wrote:
I have a friend who has bought a squeezebox and want to use it in his
living room. His problem is that both he and his wife are allergic to
cables!
Two squeezeboxes into two powered speakers, no amplifier.
--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html
opaqueice;143033 Wrote:
Bringing up Stereophile's methodology is not a good way to convince a
skeptic.
I'm not trying to convince anyone, a modder whom I know, was not shown
enough respect, I'm here to put up a defence.
At the end of the day, the market will decide, good products will stay,
Well, if they could kill the breaker to that circuit, and if there's
room inside the conduit ... they could try fishing the cable to the
other speaker through there.
With the circuit deactivated, it wouldn't impart any hum and since
they're both 220 outlets, there's a good chance the conduit
tomsi42;143037 Wrote:
Hello,
I have a friend who has bought a squeezebox and want to use it in his
living room. His problem is that both he and his wife are allergic to
cables!
They have a reasonably OK Yamaha amplifier they wants to use, but as
the speakers are to be placed on each
Pat Farrell;143046 Wrote:
tomsi42 wrote:
I have a friend who has bought a squeezebox and want to use it in
his
living room. His problem is that both he and his wife are allergic
to
cables!
Two squeezeboxes into two powered speakers, no amplifier.
--
Pat
jeffluckett;143045 Wrote:
Well, if they could kill the breaker to that circuit, and if there's
room inside the conduit ... they could try fishing the cable to the
other speaker through there.
With the circuit deactivated, it wouldn't impart any hum and since
they're both 220 outlets,
Pat Farrell;143046 Wrote:
tomsi42 wrote:
I have a friend who has bought a squeezebox and want to use it in
his
living room. His problem is that both he and his wife are allergic
to
cables!
Two squeezeboxes into two powered speakers, no amplifier.
--
Pat
P Floding wrote:
Two squeezeboxes into two powered speakers, no amplifier.
Kidding, right?
How do you get sample sync?
Not kidding.
I have no problems with sync.
Not that I've tried two in one room. With identical SB models
it might work.
Folks who hate cables have to pay professional
opaqueice;142809 Wrote:
So all this argument over science having a long way to go, etc. is
irrelevant to the main point, which is whether or not some or most of
these mods are snake-oil. That can be decided cleanly and definitively
in a few minutes. The fact that this is never done says
Pat Farrell;143054 Wrote:
Audiophiles can't worry about professional fees or wires,
they will probably have to trash their Yamaha...
[/url]
Unfortunatly, they aren't audiophiles. When they refurbished the house,
they didn't even think about having hifi equipment in the living room at
Someone suggested to me upgrading the clock. What does this mean
exactly, and is it advisable to try?
--
joncourage
joncourage's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2837
View this thread:
My quest to have a button-less set-up continues. Planning to link the
SB3 directly to power amp and then to my speakers. Looking at the Bel
Canto s300 dual-mono power amp which should look great beside the
squeeze box.
Run into a little problem. Would like the option to still use my
sub-woofer
Very good points indeed. Except that, actually, it's quite easy to
measure speakers. Professional testing software (Liberty Audio Suite
is an industry standard; for Mac users, there's Fuzzmeasure) exists and
is used by speaker designers, reviewers, and home-users (like myself).
Some honest
Pat Farrell;143046 Wrote:
tomsi42 wrote:
I have a friend who has bought a squeezebox and want to use it in
his
living room. His problem is that both he and his wife are allergic
to
cables!
Two squeezeboxes into two powered speakers, no amplifier.
You know, that exact approach
How many new Transporter owners do you think are willing to stick their
necks out and give you their honest opinion when:
- They've only had the thing a week.
- They may not have the words or experience to describe what they're
hearing.
and/or, most importantly,
- If they don't think it's as
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