Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

n SGF with a thin XML veneer. In > > particular, they have the problem that they hang information such as > > commentary and diagrams off the game tree. What we need is a new format > > defined ground-up from an XML perspective. Realistically, putting up > > white-tower propos

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On 23/10/2007, Gunnar Farnebäck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A potential problem with an XML library is the internal representation > of the game tree. For debugging purposes it's not unusual to dump > reading trees containing literally millions of moves, sometimes up to > the limit of the availab

RE: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

Bob Myers wrote: Many of those complaining about XML don't seem to really know too much about it. That is exactly my point. I don't know and I don't want to know! SGF is fine. It has been stable for years because there is no problem at all. Should we find a problem, there is a straightforward

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

> Many of those complaining about XML don't seem to really know too much about > it. Dude. It's a file format. File formats don't solve problems. Data structures solve problems. XML is not a data structure, it is a very loosely specified way to arrange tags. By becoming so "multipurpose" it h

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bob Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Some critics of an XML-based go format seem to be involved in a paranoid fantasy that they are going to be forced by evil goblins to use it against their will. No, that is not the problem. The problem is that if there are two

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

"Bob Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Many of those complaining about XML don't seem to really know too > much about it. The problem with XML is, that most people using it don't know anything about it and possible alternatives, using XML for everything, even when there are better alternatives

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

As I understand it, the problem with JSON is that it is not good at encoding optional extensions, name spaces, private additions, etc. which is something that modern XML is good at. Is there anyone who's used a lot of JSON who could comment? cheers stuart On 10/25/07, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTE

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

is > real-world proposals on which real-world applications are built, so that > people can see the real-world benefit. > > Bob Myers > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart A. Yeates > Sent: Thursday, Oct

RE: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

built, so that people can see the real-world benefit. Bob Myers -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart A. Yeates Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 1:04 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF I sat down and read

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

I saw this on the web a JSON library for C: "JSON-C implements a reference counting object model that allows you to easily construct JSON objects in C, output them as JSON formatted strings and parse JSON formatted strings back into the C representation of JSON objects." I think I will change CG

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

I tried to manually compose a JSON example to roughly match the xml example Stuart Yates gave. I don't know if I did it right because I'm not an expert on JSON although I've used it a little bit in javascript programming: { "White": "John Doe", "Black": "Fred Johnson", "BoardSi

RE: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

2007 11:45 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF On 10/25/07, David Fotland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I think Anders supports using Korshelt notation in sgf (E4, etc, with no I). Who or what is Anders? ___

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On 10/25/07, David Fotland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think Anders supports using Korshelt notation in sgf (E4, etc, with no > I). > Who or what is Anders? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/

RE: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

There is a standard file format like PGN for Go, that uses standard go notation. It's the Ishi Press Go Format used by the original Many Faces of go, and still supported by Many Faces. You might still find files out there with a .go extension. It was invented before sgf, but the go commuinity

RE: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

with xml is very different, since they do the same thing. David > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Jeff Nowakowski > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 5:57 AM > To: computer-go > Subject: Re: [computer-go] XM

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

I sat down and read the DTD and the documentation and have some direct feedback on it. I'm aware that the DTD is quite old, and some of the ideas and solutions I'm going to suggest might not have been available (or as popular) when the DTD was written. Lines starting with Referencing HTML in t

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

I'm not an authority on SGF, but I am the owner of one of the larger SGF libraries (the KGS archives, 19,599,303 games as of this moment), and author one of the more common SGF editors (CGoban 3). Everybody wants something different from a SGF replacement. The syntax of SGF sucks, but once you wri

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 22:31 +0200, Gunnar Farnebäck wrote: > > But I can provide a hint for something I would find useful. If it's > something I'm missing in today's sgf viewers it's a good way to dump and > inspect a transposition table. It's possible to expand the > transpositions into a big

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

Heikki Levanto wrote: Even if a new proposed standard would have many benefits, obvious to everyone (which I have not yet seen), I would stuill urge people to consider those benefits carefully, and to weigh them against the problems that arise from having two incompatible standards. I agree

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

> yes. Allowing everyone to add non-standard properties means that > you cannot validate the files in a meaningful way anymore. > Also, I haven't really seen convincing use cases for non-standard > properties. SGF defines (more than) enough, even if some of them > are a bit underspecified ... I've

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On 10/23/07, Gunnar Farnebäck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But I can provide a hint for something I would find useful. If it's > something I'm missing in today's sgf viewers it's a good way to dump and > inspect a transposition table. It's possible to expand the > transpositions into a big tree wit

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

Jason House wrote: An XML alternative [1] to SGF has recently come to my attention. What do others think of this alternative? Personally, the effect of a tag affecting the previous tag seems kind of strange to me. For use in GNU Go it would need to have quite compelling benefits to become i

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Markus Enzenberger wrote: its not about adding more and more. Its about selecting a few best-practice norms and conventions. XML is a standard that is used by a large number of projects and it handles problems on an intermediate layer that every complicated file format will r

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

I've been looking further at the jago xml format, and for a very simple game it looks like: Jago:Version 4.7 19 cheers stuart ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/compu

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On Mon October 22 2007 18:24, Don Dailey wrote: > > On Mon October 22 2007 10:15, Don Dailey wrote: > > it also seems to be hard to write an SGF file without bugs. > > 20% of the games or 20% of the sources? 20% of the games could have > come from a single source. from different sources. You can

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

> I'm surprised no one has brought up an obvious benefit of XML: well > defined character encoding. A prime weakness of SGF is its unspecified > character encoding. I thought that SGF is not well accepted in Asia > due to this limitation. I'm also a firm believer in UTF-8 only. This is an exampl

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

> I'm surprised no one has brought up an obvious benefit of XML: well > defined character encoding. A prime weakness of SGF is its unspecified > character encoding. I thought that SGF is not well accepted in Asia > due to this limitation. I'm also a firm believer in UTF-8 only. This is an exampl

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

day, October 23, 2007 9:26:25 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF On Oct 23, 2007, at 9:01 AM, Stuart A. Yeates wrote: > Much of the discussion in this thread has focused very narrowly on > using an XML format to replace SGF, I believe that if an XML format is > to take

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On Oct 23, 2007, at 9:01 AM, Stuart A. Yeates wrote: Much of the discussion in this thread has focused very narrowly on using an XML format to replace SGF, I believe that if an XML format is to take off, it should offer capabilities beyond what are possible in SGF, conversion to XML for XMLs sa

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

Much of the discussion in this thread has focused very narrowly on using an XML format to replace SGF, I believe that if an XML format is to take off, it should offer capabilities beyond what are possible in SGF, conversion to XML for XMLs sake is pointless. Possibilities include: * A person namin

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 10:02 -0400, Jason House wrote > Obviously, small changes can't be done violently as it'd break > everything. For an sgf reader, this change is so simple to implement, > it's trivial. By first getting programs to read the formats and make > converters available, it becomes q

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes < snip > However, I differently with this issue of allowing "standard" notation with SGF. I advocate "defining" it as acceptable. One of the primary reasons for having non-binary formats such as SGF and XML is to make

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

I find it interesting the position I am taking on this.I'm a bit of believer in not making your parser too forgiving, or gratuitously breaking standards because it encourages sloppiness. In the days when PGN files for chess were just starting to become popular, it was horrible what you woul

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

n steve uurtamo wrote: > to be fair, most K&R code will compile on modern > compilers, if you ask nicely. > > s. > > > - Original Message > From: Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: computer-go > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:42:15 AM &g

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On 10/23/07, Jeff Nowakowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 01:16 -0700, Phil G wrote: > > As a community, I believe we can improve SGF by extending the > > specification slightly to allow points to also be encoded in > > "standard" coordinates and depreciated, admittedly slow

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

>>From: Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> I don't see any reason why [C4] should be harder to read than [cd]. Not for >> humans, and not for computers. For computers, C4 and CD are equivalent. For humans, C4 is slightly easier to process, since this is a common coordinate system used by

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 08:29:36AM -0400, Don Dailey wrote: > I have a few books on GO and there are many articles on the web and they > all seem to use one standard. Are you saying that the standard is > really 'cd' and not 'C4' ? No, I am not saying anything about books and articles. I am say

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

to be fair, most K&R code will compile on modern compilers, if you ask nicely. s. - Original Message From: Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: computer-go Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:42:15 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF There is a lot to be

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 08:42 -0400, Don Dailey wrote: > GTP pretty much replace GMP.A lot of resistance because GMP was the > defacto standard at the time. It would have been foolish to insist on > being backwards compatible. GTP was a huge change in protocol with clear benefits. What's bein

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

There is a lot to be said about standards, but common sense should prevail. Very few things have remained the same in computers, such as the program language you use.I've programmed for years and C is not the same as it was when I started and will not compile on the original compilers. I

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

Heikki Levanto wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 10:03:56PM -0700, Phil G wrote: > >> To my surprise, GoGui can already read SGF with standard coordinates! :) >> > > > I think you are muddying the waters by calling non-standard extensions > 'standard' coordinates. > > I don't see any reas

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 01:16 -0700, Phil G wrote: > As a community, I believe we can improve SGF by extending the > specification slightly to allow points to also be encoded in > "standard" coordinates and depreciated, admittedly slowly, the use of > the old coordinate system. We already see Go prog

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

From: Heikki Levanto [EMAIL PROTECTED] > I don't see any reason why [C4] should be harder to read than [cd]. Not for > humans, and not for computers. Actually, C4 is not [cd]. C4 is actually [cf] on a 9x9 board. It's something else on a 19x19 or 13x13 board. The row character depends on the boar

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 10:03:56PM -0700, Phil G wrote: > To my surprise, GoGui can already read SGF with standard coordinates! :) I think you are muddying the waters by calling non-standard extensions 'standard' coordinates. I don't see any reason why [C4] should be harder to read than [cd]. N

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

> - Original Message > From: Phil G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I'll take a look at GoGui tonight and see if I can provide a patch (unless > Markus does this first). To my surprise, GoGui can already read SGF with standard coordinates! :)___ compute

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

Markus Enzenberger wrote: > On Mon October 22 2007 10:15, Don Dailey wrote: > >> almost impossible to write XML manually without bugs. >> > > it also seems to be hard to write an SGF file without bugs. > 20% of the games or 20% of the sources? 20% of the games could have come from a

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On Mon October 22 2007 10:15, Don Dailey wrote: > almost impossible to write XML manually without bugs. it also seems to be hard to write an SGF file without bugs. I recently run a test on a collection of about 5000 SGF files from various sources on the web and more than 20% of them generated a wa

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

I'll take a look at GoGui tonight and see if I can provide a patch (unless Markus does this first). - Original Message From: Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] In my go bubble, the list of leading programs would be: * GoGui (which already supports reading the alternate format) * KGS To a le

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

Also, if converters were supplied it would be easy. A simple utility to go either way. - Don Jason House wrote: > > > On 10/22/07, *Phil G* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > To start, we just need the leading Go programs to read either > encoding format (so th

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On 10/22/07, Phil G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > To start, we just need the leading Go programs to read either encoding > format (so they are backwards compatible). This should be somewhat trivial > since you can tell which format just by looking at the coordinate encoding. > In my go bubble, th

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Of all the possibilities, I think what Phil says is the most sensible thing.   - - Don Phil G wrote: > > XML is overkill with little to no additional benefits. I can't read XML better than SGF. Plus it could be difficult to implemented on platf

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

XML is overkill with little to no additional benefits. I can't read XML better than SGF. Plus it could be difficult to implemented on platforms which do not have pre-made libraries for reading/writing XML documents, and writing an XML parser from scratch is not a trivial task. However, I am in

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

On 10/22/07, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > I personally hate XML. It's crazy to reject SGF because of it's > readability only to use XML which is verbose and only somewhat readable > if you carefully construct it to be.What is cr

Re: [computer-go] XML alternatives to SGF

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I personally hate XML. It's crazy to reject SGF because of it's readability only to use XML which is verbose and only somewhat readable if you carefully construct it to be.What is crazy to me is that it was desgined to be HUMAN readable, and yet