From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I am afraid that the world of constant anti police and anti authority
extremism is not my world.
I had hoped, being a keen shooter, to be involved in discussions about
shooting, not constantly responding to people who dissect every sentence I
make, put
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<.>>>
The term we use is 'barrack room lawyer'.
Someone who thinks he knows it all, but can't put it into practise.
IG
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybersh
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<<>>
I despair.
That's hardly in my official capacity is it??
Can there be anyone else on this group who is subject to such intense
scrutiny and hatred?
IG
--
Pardon? How is that comment anything to do with hatred? And
wh
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>. For example, IG is happy to state that in his
>official capacity he does not recognise the RKBA and he gets away with it,
>except in this discussion group .<<
Go on, show me where I have said that.
The trouble with so many people
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<<>>>
Can the author of this piece really believe this drivel?
No one minds informed criticism, but this beggars belief!
IG
--
The police have deployed ARVs after reports of people with
guns that turned out to be mobile phones.
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<<<<>>>>
Is this really the best that you can do?
What wild claims?
When have I ever said that I know what's best for anyone? Go on, I challenge
you to come up with an example.
Malign agent provocateur? Come on.
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
How can a gun go off when its being cleaned? And if it does, how on earth
can it be accidental?
Negligent, yes.
Acidental, no.
IG
Stands by to repel boarders
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
List a
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
The law states that an opinion is required as to a persons suitability to
possess firearms or hold a certificate.' If , in the opinion of the chief
officer', etc. What you think the law should be is immaterial, that is wha
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Fair comment, and I apologise for the use of the term minimum force. You are
quite right, it should have been 'reasonable'.
As for the act not applying to self defence, you quite rightly point out
that it refers to the prevention
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I know where there are a number, if you would care to email me.
IG
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
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N
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
S carrying a firearm would make you feel safe? What are you going to do with
it? Execute the next kid that tries to steal something out your van?
How about trying this tacticput two people in the van. One stays in
it whilst the other ma
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>>
Not if she was lying on the pavement leaking blood all over.
Its not just bodyguards, its the fact that, by and large, firearms are of
very little use in self defence when the practicalities are thought through.
I have had peop
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
Look here..
<<>>
Thank you. I rest my case. He is telling me that they are dangerous toys if
not used for self defence. Sorry, but there is no other way to read it. I do
not need an American telling me that fi
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
No, I dont think it would.
I dont think jibes at the families from Dunblane are helpful to anyone. That
wont alter anything except to get peoples backs up. That is a fact, like it
or not.
I would imagine that this guy is only too well aw
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>>
Oh dear. You dont really need me to answer this!
Prince Phillip did it better than I could when he quoted the case for
cricket bats being banned.
BTW, lots of people are barred from driving cars, but would not be barred
from possessing fir
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
So in your world, you wake up in the morning and decide...'I think I will be
a drug addict today'. You then toddle down to the doctors and tell him that
you fancy being a junkie, and can you have a prescription please.
Som
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
Well well well.
What a comment form someone who uses the prehistoric American police concept
of justifiable use of a firearm. AOJ.
My God. That died a death in the 60's!
I still have an old black and white training film telling us
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
OK, I'll take up that challenge, as you might expect
Why should someone who had 24 hr police protection need a gun for self
defence?
In any case, a gun would be of no use to old Salmon. The history of
assassinations fails to reco
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
Merely made the point that if our American correspondent had his way, the
ol' .458 would be just a dangerous toy, cos it would be useless for self
defence!
I'm a little dissapointed to see that you talked of other things, t
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Heres a new thread.
On looking around the various sites devoted to shooting sports, ie BASC,
Cybershooters, Sportsmans Association, NGO, whatever, it is obvious that all
of them invite comment from their memberships that is visible in a public
forum,
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I can just about wear the argument that there MIGHT be some people who could
make out a case for carrying a firearm for protection. I am not too sure
what the circumstances might be, but if that was the case, I would consider
that various things would
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
Naivety in the extreme.
Have you ever seen the results of drug taking?
I suppose the 47 people that have died as a result of Heroin overdoses this
year in one small town near where I live are the result of proscription?
Are you seri
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<<<>>>>>>>>
Why did I just know that people would jump on this example and start tearing
it to bits because they didnt understand what it was about or what the point
was in quoting it?
Sigh.
Oh well, at least i
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
Presumably he makes them for novelty value. I personally wouldn't fancy
shooting top loaded .458's out of a revolver!
(Wouldnt mind watching someone else do it tho)
I bet he doesnt sell many!
Can anyone think of a use
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
I apologise for not answering your point, I must have missed it by accident.
If a person was placed in such a position whereby he saved his own or
anothers life by using a legally held firearm, and did so under
circumstances that fell within
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
:::Fair enough but would you apply this logic to other objects that, if
misused,
could severly endanger the public. For instance motor vehicles or
matches?
Yes, certainly.
There are some people that shouldnt be allowed anywhere near eit
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
So the answer to your question is yes, I'd be "happy" for this guy
to own
guns, if I was secure in the knowledge that he was hugely outnumbered by
ordinary - but armed - citizens, a situation that used to obtain in this
country
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<<>>>>>
I make no apologies for being unpleasant to an American who tries to impose
his values on my country.
He tries to tell us that firearms are only of any use for self defence. That
if they cant be used for this they might
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>..
What earthly use is a .458 Win Mag (presumably thats what you mean) got to
do with self defence?
I assume that you agree with our American correspondent who tells us that if
its not for
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
How much do you know about self defence in this country?
Absolutely nothing, judging by what you write.
As for the next time the German juggernaut rolls, unless Japan gets
involved, we wont be able to count on our mates from over the p
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
No it isnt the best argument.
If people really want their handguns back, (me included), then the self
defence argument is a non starter.
If the arguments for sporting shooting arent effective, the right to carry
for self defence is neve
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<, I would say the fact that it took
20-odd years to figure out who he was and the fact he held
a license during all that time does not indicate the effectiveness
of the controls. During those twenty years he could have done
anything he wanted
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
If you lawfully hold a firearm for, say, shooting deer, there is absolutely
nothing wrong in using it for self defence in the home PROVIDED that:
It is the minimum force required in the circumstances.
It is proportional to the perception of t
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
No, we didnt have raves, AIDS, a simmering culture of violence and many
other things either.
It is beyond belief that anyone can even think about legalising, or even
decriminalising class A drugs. I can only think that they have nev
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>>
It may or may not be a good example, but that is neither here nor there.
It's met with a deafening silence by the people who advocate NO controls,
even if you personally are not one of them.
Not one response has been made to this
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
No it isnt. The point he's making is that, in the UK, we should have
firearms for self defence. He is bragging that he carries all sorts of
weapons. Big deal. I wouldnt want to live in a place like that.
And its not me who is pat
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>>
Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later.
Someone caught me out on the hasty misuse of a single three letter word.
I suppose I should do the honourable thing.
Pass me the sword please.
IG
Doesnt alter my own opinion that
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>
Wearily.
I have never, ever, not once, ever, in any way, shape or form, or in any
fashion that might have been able to be construed as such, mentioned a
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>>
If you want me to, I will. Do you want me to? Or do you want an honest
answer?
<<>>
No.its the most important reason for owning firearms in America. (it
probably isn't actually, but who am I to start
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<<> you miss the point,
which is that he WAS armed, and from what we know about him he would have
been armed without regard to the law - as are a great many of the criminal
classes. Laws only affect the law-abiding, etc - how many times does
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
Is this your interpretation of events, or was this information actually
published?
If you let me know the case details, ie roughly the date and the name of any
one of the defendants, I will pull the court transcript to establish what
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<<>>>
Eh?
IG
Confused.
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<<>>>
If there were no gun controls, they could have legally bought firearms and
nothing could have been done about it.
It is but a small escalation to then use that firearm to carry out a raid on
an all night garage. Or anywhere real
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>>
Is that all?
A quiet sleep little village by comparison to where I work.
Why, only yesterday there was an elderly woman parked on a double yellow
line. Mind you, she did have a disabled badge on her windscreen.
4 of us held her up
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
Puzzled a bit by this one. Who said anything about innocent or gulity?
Semantics is not a favourite subject, but here we go.
Is a law abiding person one who commits offences without being caught, or
one who doesnt commit offences at a
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
Bloody good idea.
What about trophy fees tho?
IG
(karamajo to his pals.)
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
My point in mentioning football supporters, etc was to illustrate that the
concept of people behaving responsibly and with a degree of common sense is
fine in theory, but the reality is totally different.
The controls mean that he is n
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
OK, I will wear that one.
IG
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>>
Oh God.
Read the whole of that post please.
The reason for mentioning that list of laws was to illustrate that there are
more laws to break nowadays, therefore crime figures are bound to be higher.
How on earth even you can
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<<>>
Hmmm. I would be very cautious about advocating shooting tests of
competence.
Who would administer them? The police?
Even I wouldnt advocate that! As everyone rightly points out, the police
officer who is competent in his or her
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Yes, you are right!
Bugger.
IG
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Peter Jackson openly advocates total freedom of movement of firearms. That
is one.
Others seek the same end.
Total freedom of firearms means that people like this would be free to have
firearms.
Which part of this dont you understand?
OK. Mor
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
What weapon do you think would have been effective in this case?
A firearm?
A baseball bat?
CS or pepper spray?
A cattle prod?
A plastic shield such as the police use?
A clothes prop?
A rottweiler?
Our right to self defence has not desce
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
What particular rights are they, Nick?
I take it that, in your ideal society, there would be total freedom to get
pissed, drive and kill the odd pedestrian?
I wager thee a kings ransom if you saw as much roadkill as I did, then your
mind
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Whats a ho-down?
Do we need banjo players?
IG
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
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Newsl
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Visual exams are carried out annually, along with a full physical exam.
(Hearing, heart, chest, etc). Instructors also get blood level tests.
We don't get psychometrically tested, because it is recognised that there is
no method of test
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Good question.
I would like to think that would be the case.
As I said..I would LIKE to think
The police service is so bloody PC now, the slightest opportunity to show
that they arent racist is jumped on and publicised fo
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
I didn't post the web site in order to support the argument for regulation.
I believe that it illustrates the useless nature of the laws that we already
have and also illustrates my view that those who advocate total freedom of
possess
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Of course, if you put into place the methods of recording crime that are
used nowadays and couple that with the modern communications systems that we
have, then that would sort out the reasons why general crime figures were
much lower. A work
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
If I was to accept that you are right, what happened in 1997?
And in any case, show me a single candidate or prospective MP who will make
an election manifesto on a single issue?
It wont happen. Even if there was such a thing, there aren'
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Pure paranoia again.
Did I say that I thought you would offend? Or implied it?
Let me look.h..no, I dont believe I did.
Since when have we got to the point of construction of the police state
which says that police officers
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
I should also like to point out that prior to 1930something or other, there
was no law regulating the misuse of drugs.
Prior to 1970..or thereabouts.there was no breathalyser law.
Prior to 1968 there was no offence of burglary or tw
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
I wouldn't have thought it would have been anyone else.
Did you report him and was he thrown out of your club?
IG
PSFunny you should say that, but the most irresponsible bit of behaviour
I have ever seen came from a civilian gun o
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Because each force has its own procedures, and I am not prepared to go
through them all! Nor do I want to start a thread on the lines of 'you
should do this, in America they do that, I know a policeman who was mad, how
can you justify, etc
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<).>>
I take my hat off to this one!
Anyone who can write a thesis on cartoon characters and somehow include a
jibe (good natured or not!) at me is far to clever for me to argue against!
I am not worthy!
IG
Cybershooters website: http://ww
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I think this debate has run its course.
I cannot, in all honesty, be bothered to repeat myself all the time by
responding to individual posts.
I have clearly stated my position, which is universally disagreed with.
(Venomously and vehemently I might add
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
.<<<<.. arrests had been so difficult, and Benson and Kurr began to explain.
Inspector John
Meiklejohn, a deeply corrupt character, had been in Kurr's pay since
1873 ...>>>>
We have a winner!!
unfirtunate
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Well, you would wouldnt you. This is a constantly recurring one as well,
when someone doesnt like a few unpalatable home truths, this is a convenient
little argument to throw out.
If yopu think anyone has been hooked, then read the posts aga
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Take a look at http://www.kleasen.org.uk
Now, I see that a gun club eventually shopped this guy. Good for them.
Yes, it was outrageous that the Police gave him a certificate. No excuses
there at all. Total incompetence.
However, some of the contrib
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
I repeat. You only see what you want to see. A small number of people.
I make NO aplology for being outspoken. 'Look, the Emperor isnt wearing any
clothes!'
Look at the responses yourself. One moment you are slagging the government
of
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Have to agree to disagree on this. I have no wish to live in a society where
guns are as freely available as you want them to be. I find that disturbing
coming from a dealer. (I presume..'Jackson rifles?)
As I said elsewhere, this
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
That is a fair point and I agree. In 5 years time, once the process of
visits and referee checks has been competed, there should be a minimum
number of bad apples.
<>
I am not prepared to reveal what the vetting procedures are. I have
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
This is a common thread, so lets deal with it.
First of all, this is popular mythology that has come to be believed due to
repetition amongst people with axes to grind.
It is simply not true that drug dealers etc are allowed by the police t
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Why dont you ask them?
I can only speak for myself. What do you want me to say?
Its a nonsense question anyway, which invites the response: what is your
position on the mass murderers who have used firearms to kill?
We have had this d
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
A good, well researched answer.
Unfortunately, it is incorrect.
You are the weakest link...etc etc.
IG
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
As there has been so much venom vented on this topic, I would love to know
what views the contributors hold on the subject of who should not be allowed
to hold a firearm or shotgun certificate.
I take it that it is the general consensus that there sh
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
No.
Next please.
IG
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
OK, fair comment, I was probably overdoing the irony bit. I'm a little
sensitive about nazi's.
Actually, I tend to agree with most of what you say. I can see that the
police service is heading down the wrong road. It is headed b
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Unfair.
This is an ongoing case, of which you only are aware of one side of the
story.
I very much doubt if you know the full circumstances surrounding the
shooting, either.
Take my word, this is not a good example to use to illustrate the n
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Well, in the absence of any other entries...looks like it
MIGHT be your lucky day!
Tell you what..have one more go and I'll make it two nights out with the
drug squad, if you get it exactly right!
IG
Cybers
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Well, I'm sure you are in a better position than me to judge.
I *know* its not rubbish, but I include applicants in this figure, as well
as people who make spurious applications for variations, etc. (you know,
when you get as far as che
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
'course its negligent. Did he get cramp in his finger AND leg at the same
time, causing them to move into line with the muzzle..
lol
If it had been a cop who did it, what an outcry there would be!
lol
IG
--
Not if it was cramp, mos
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
I make no secret of the fact that I, along with every other officer I know,
detests the type of manipultive dishonesty that is described here. It is
unarguably corrupt and yes, it did go on. As far as I am aware, HMIC will
not accept the pra
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Are you separating RFD's and cert holders?
Most RFD's that I know also have f/arm or SC's. The American murderer chappy
was both.
I suppose here is as good a place as any to point out the siege mentality
that exists among
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Don't disagree with that one.
Careful, though, Richard, you will be castigated, slagged and called nasty
names for agreeing with the filth!
Well, not totally agreeing, but agreeing a little bit.
You'll start getting the hate mail soo
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Ho hum. Another nazi jibe. OK, I admit it. I'm a member of combat 18.
You are not alone in being concerned at the erosion of freedom and
liberties. I share those sentiments!
I do not, however, blame my colleagues. I blame the politicians
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
So leave it to parliament, then. That will be OK. We trust them, dont we?
If so, then you must accept and agree with the current laws they have
passed, i.e. the 97 amendment?
Do us a favour!
IG
--
Parliament has already decided and stated
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Quite agree, it was appaling and embarassing to see it.
Some things are indefensible.
IG
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Don't think, I know.
And am dealing with it! Its a rolling process though.get one out of the way
and another appears.
IG
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
List ad
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A
<>
A: I am. And have been doing so for twice as long as you have been shooting.
Next question.
B: See A.
--
Well, if that's true I take back my earlier comments criticising
you. 'Nuff said.
Steve.
Cybershooters website: http://w
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Once again, the paranoia has re-surfaced with a vengeance!
I certainly never mentioned Hitler photos as you suggest. Once again, the
disturbing trend towards obsession with Nazi's has surfaced.I am
not even going to try to
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Where in heavens name did I mention practical rifle shooters?
Bloody hell, man, I shoot practical rifle. Where did you get this
from
IG
(Bewildered!)
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
List admin:
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
The law didn't allow, so where is the point you are making?
The law didn't allow Hindley, Brady, Dennis Neilsen, Peter Sutcliffe,
Black, the Wests, too many paedophiles to mention and many others to go the
way they rightly should
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Certainly, see below.
<>
Fair comments...see below!
The people I consider shouldn't be allowed to possess firearms are those
that pose a danger to society.
By that I mean characters such as those who have deviant sexual tendenc
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Dear Ant
My point exactly.
I am a shooter, and used to think that all shooters were great people.
Having worked with licensing for some years, I now realise the amount of
unpleasant, potentially dangerous and thoroughly objectionable people t
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Again, why let fact get in the way of a good rumour.
I quoted the oft repeated comments that are spouted by the rabid
anti-shooting lobby.
As the point seems to be lost, why not consider the reality of things. If a
rumour is repeated often enough, it be
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
Ho hum. Here we go again. Police v shooters.
The people i mentioned (tongue in cheek btw) would be able to defend their
ignorant and untrue comments equally as well as the ignorant and deceitful
rumour mongers who propogate the myth that
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
OOerr
lol
Amazing the reaction that you can get just 'cos you think something is naff!
lol
IG
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
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From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I have used an M77 in .308 for a number of years now.
We also have a few as sniping rifles.
Using 167 gr Lapua scenar, I get sub minute of angle out to 600m, which is
as far as I have ever shot it.
(Fitted with a Schmidt 12 x 42)
My own has seen a lot
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<>
As you might expect..lola few comments are worthy in response to
the above paragraph, which was probably written with absolutely no venom
dribbling onto the keyboard.
I have heard that shooters are all homicidal maniacs. Not a pr
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