Gunther,
I'd welcome some clarification too. I think there's a dilemma in that many
people don't share a way to distinguish between ontology and information.
It seems to have been the standard position of modern theoretical science
for 80 years that the two are one and the same, theoretically,
You guys all seem to be missing the difference between the value of reducing
your solution and the error of ignoring the complexities of your problem.
I find it's often going out of my way to trace the complexities of the
problem to see where they lead that leads me out of my blinders and gives me
Ah yes, I believe in scientific thinking as doing reduction the 'right way'
too, but not without checking.That's then done by having a way to look
for how we're doing it the 'wrong way'. If you don't have the latter the
former can be just self-fulfilling prophecy.
The basic dilemma is
(if pics don't travel, see link below) from Steve Kurtz
Evolutionists Flock To Darwin-Shaped Wall Stain
SEPTEMBER 5, 2008 | ttp://www.theonion.com/content/index/4436%22 ISSUE
44.36
Darwinic pilgrims claim the image fills them with an overwhelming feeling of
logic.
DAYTON, TN-A steady stream
Well, there is a very particular and specific reason for that (humorous) way
of saying it being very truthful. It's that environments thrive by housing
diverse *differently organized* things that independently exploit each
other's differences. If you don't see the cognitive dissonances, you're
Maybe there are two sides to reductionism, the 'good' reduction of a problem
that locates the true central solution, and the 'bad' reduction of the
environment to fit the solution you prefer.
The latter makes the 'hammer solution' interpret everything as a nail. The
former notices what's not
No problem. The question for any good science of emergence is often whether
you're mad enough! Emergence is something we notice as the 'madness' of
nature herself, in doing things without having a prior rule to follow, after
all. The emergence question I was raising in response to Nick's
Well, maybe one very general way is to say reductionism is representing that
things are well represented by our information at hand (i.e. using our
information to substitute for things rather than to refer to them,
reducing things to our information about them). Our best information is
I guess that's the puzzle, since we can't use triangulation to measure
distance for stars we use various corollaries for age to measure distance
and of distance to measure age, according to the equations that have seemed
to make sense so far. That the equations have not been making sense in
of convergent series prevents science from studying emergence or
life, then does my proof answer his complaint 'yes' by showing a useful
result from scientifically considering them?
Best,
Phil Henshaw
Yes, there's a good way to connect beginning and ending.It's as a
organized series of questions applicable to any circumstance where change is
conserved. It's based on the emergent continuities of beginning and
ending, that require accumulation, and that the accumulations need to change
sign
will re-invent back propagation through feed forward
neural networks - assuming non-recurrence.
The solutions to the problem are ensembles of paths.
Ken
_
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Phil Henshaw
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 8:19 AM
That sounds like you're saying that having an ability to predict an outcome
with certainty, a 'final cause' in that sense, means that discovering the
path the system will take in getting there is not relevant?I think that
reversing that logic is the thing to do, that knowing the end gives you
Glen,
Well, of course having clues to where to look for discoverable things is
not a reliable procedure ...if you simply speculate. It's like offering
someone in a clue to where the beer is. If you don't go get it it's a
hopelessly unreliable way to have one. You make me crazed!!
Phil
Glen,
Oops, please ignore last quip, a response to an old email having had a
couple extra beers...
My technique is for identifying where physical systems beyond our
information are located, and then how to explore them for interesting
information. I guess the way that relates to Rosen is as what
PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of glen e. p. ropella
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 2:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Rosen, Life Itself - in context
Phil Henshaw wrote:
You say math can jump in and out of context with 'meta-math
OK. So perhaps you might be willing to change your question to:
Given
an INcomplete math representation of a button, how would you derive a
math representation of a button hole? If you did that, then we might
be able to formulate an answer. However, although that modified
question is
Thompson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 10:58 PM
To: Phil Henshaw; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [FRIAM] 1. Re: Rosen, Life Itself (Marcus G. Daniels)
I am not so sanguine about what I think of as word collage. I
It seems Rosen would be concerned with incomplete mapping for categories
of things in relation to categories of reason.Take the ideal condition:
assume that nature is completely consistent with her categories and people
are perfectly self-consistent in using theirs, will it then be possible
So far I only hear issues about mapping theoretical things to theoretical
things, math to math, theory to theory. Last I knew the only mapping
between physical and theoretical things had to do with ranges of uncertainty
in measures of the physical things, like weight and height guessing, and
that
Interesting observation. That's rather common in how conversations and
languages evolve I think, reusing pieces snatched from old ones, without the
whole. In culture the 'compost' is very nutritious. Natural systems,
biology and economies often find new uses for the compost of prior
constructs
I find it interesting that he seems to establish the applicability of his
formalism to physical systems with the casual word realize as in Any two
natural systems that realize this formalism . as if no demonstration was
required.There seems to be no instrumentality for such a transference,
the
Orlando,
But aren't you and Jochen talking about insight here as if it were just some
diffusion process of echoes of other things, rather than a synthetic event,
and so leaving the core question of what the heck is making the echoes
around here unaddressed? Ann's comment that even simple things
of us) have sudden insight from time to time. What I want to know is
where the really original, genius type insight comes from. What is it that
allows Newton or Einstein or Picasso to see something essential that no one
has seen or understood before?
O
Phil Henshaw wrote:
On reading Lehrer's
Yea, math is for people who are bad at gambling, but who also prefer not to
'cheat' by watching to see what's happening directly.
It's a guesser's tool, and in a few kinds of situations you don't need to
guess. You can sneak a peak and directly see.Like when all the
resources for an
in the system - missing
information between real value and monetary gain.
Ken
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Phil Henshaw
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 8:47 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
computing
with percolation theory.
Ken
-Original Message-
From: Phil Henshaw [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 6:32 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: RE: [FRIAM] no coincidence...
You refer
disappointments till we stop, one
way or another.
Phil
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Phil Henshaw
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 8:17 PM
To: FRIAM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Mathematics and Music - missed opportunity
Carl,
Well, It depends
from nature,
We are surprised when nature pays our work no mind.
Were our methods unsound?
Phil Henshaw wrote:
I think what may be holding back the math is our failure to go to the
next
level and consider change as a physical process. When you do that
you find
what nature actually does
I think what may be holding back the math is our failure to go to the next
level and consider change as a physical process. When you do that you find
what nature actually does much more interesting and inspiring than anything
we can invent.
Using a physical systems model the process now
That's sort of like how the environmental impact of each dollar we spend is
similarly almost infinite in relation to what we see... The invisibility,
or 'unaccountability' problem requires developing confidence with
interpolating projected processes and limited local observability.
My latest
analysis of pumping things up meets
diminishing returns or complications of some sort, and needs to be remade
into something else, seems worth looking into. Wouldn't you agree?
Phil Henshaw
Rich,
This mailing list is probably not the best place for stock analysis.
-S
-Original
Applied Complexity Coffee
Group'
Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Innovation | Home invention | Economist.com
Phil,
Can I quote you?
Ken
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Phil Henshaw
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 5:00 AM
E:CO does a great job of keeping the historical papers in circulation and
maintaining a good flow of creative papers that apply to management in some
way.Im not sure if the two major strains will converge or diverge
though. That keeps happening with all the strains of systems theory,over
...yea, but the best and most useful part of the invention of electricity,
... was the switch!
Phil
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 10:09 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Don,
The desire to help is what makes us people. So much aid for getting people
over short term crises leads to destabilizing their communities, though. I
wonder, how do you know what aid is really going to be coordinated to avoid
the worst of the common mistakes of upsetting natural balances
on how to use our more visible fixations (blinders) to help us see
where the others are, and help reveal the amazing world that's been hidden
from us by them?
Less formal http://www.synapse9.com/drafts/Hidden-Life.pdf
More theory http://www.synapse9.com/drafts/SciMan-2Draft.pdf
phil
Glen,
...
You're right that agility helps one avoid an avoidable change ... e.g.
like a big fish snapping at a small fish. And you're right that such
avoidable changes are only avoidable if one can sense the change
coming.
But, what if the change is totally unavoidable? I.e. it's going
than the
usual method of using them to represent other things.
Phil Henshaw
.·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave NY NY 10040 tel: 212-795-4844
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: www.synapse9.com
in the last
No, that does not work at all. Patching together a model to suite a symptom
in retrospect does not help you with being ready for unexpected eventfulness
in nature that you previously had no idea that you should be looking for.
Phil Henshaw
How does that
phil henshaw wrote:
Self-consistent models represent environments very well, just
omitting their
living parts, mind without matter.
Would any of the things you guys suggested fix that?
I believe so. At least 1/2 of the solution to any problem lies in a
good
Only simple machines. More complex machines (eg the Intel Pentium
processor) show definite signs of evolutionary accretion, as no one
person can design such a complex thing from scratch, but rather
previous designs are used and optimised.
[ph] Right! Layered design is sort of a universal
system interactions would still need to include the
design of their information structures, though, so a self-consistent model
would then have the task of representing differently consistent things at
the same time, and be unable to do it. Right ?
Phil Henshaw
of using
models that conceal the presence of the things that'll get in our way.
Self-consistent models represent environments very well, just omitting their
living parts, mind without matter.
Would any of the things you guys suggested fix that?
Phil Henshaw
that how math is built it can't successfully emulate nature. Maybe it
also shows that the way nature is built it can't successfully emulate math.
If nature can't do math, that may have different implications.
Phil Henshaw
: [FRIAM] The quintessence of complexity thinking
Phil Henshaw wrote:
What if in ABM's the agents didn't all follow the same rules, but
made
up their own. Would it still work?
Roughly, models with adaptive agents and no parameters are better than
models with non-adaptive agents and lots
Markus,
One way would be to program them to recognize the environmental lines of
conflict with other independent agents (like when diminishing returns
indicate a shared resource is becoming contested perhaps), as some form of
primitive consciousness of the things existing outside their
That 'decision' was actually a long term widespread and well organized
research and advocacy movement.The idea of setting aside ever growing
amounts of land to produce 'alternative fuels' came from the 'counter
culture' of the 60's.The answer would have been, and still could be,
*very*
What if in ABM's the agents didn't all follow the same rules, but made up
their own. Would it still work?
Phil
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:39 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Jack's summary of the dilemma is interesting in that it does not identify
which assumptions of the model are responsible. If there were a Hari
Seldon around, or a bio-mimic of some kind, someone capable of reading those
assumptions of the model that seal our fate unless they are considered
Well, it would be hard for me to draw the picture of what the local Santa Fe
FRIAM community 'does', but it's often that a complex system retains it's
original concept and develops from that idea by addition and adjustment as
it grew. It may have reached a stable form or have a stability only
Hugh,
(Phil henshaw) What kind of information might indicate the approach of
common resource limits? How would that be different from evidence that
other
users are breaking their agreements? As independent users of natural
resources tend to have less information about, or interest in, each
are also in direct conflict as
chasing groups want to reintegrate groups ahead, while groups ahead want to
stay ahead of those behind.
Does this sound a bit like the kind of resource sharing states you were
talking about?
Hugh Trenchard
- Original Message -
From: Phil Henshaw [EMAIL
Marcus,
[ph]
Phil Henshaw wrote:
I'm trying to compare the use central managed
solutions and user negotiated solutions in this fairly simple problem
to
develop a way of discussing the more complicated situations where
efficient
and fair central resource management is not possible
Steve,
Yes, and to keep brief, I think there are so very many clear examples of our
being clueless about the nature of the 'game' and 'commons' we are sharing
that the earlier game theory and tragedy of the commons studies were clearly
missing something. It think what they were missing is the
From the State of the Planet meetings at Columbia Earth Institute
http://www.columbia.edu/acis/networks/advanced/ei/sop08/0327pm/morton.ram
Andrew Morton - UNEP http://www.earth.columbia.edu/sop2008/?id=speakers
Phil
FRIAM
Marcus,
I think the boundary conditions of the problem include both the variable of
system design and control, and that of the independent behaviors of the
users. The question is what each of those contributes. With computer
networks you can't do without both, of course, but you can consider
flowers that have been recently visited, for example.
Phil
Phil Henshaw wrote:
The network manager might be really 'out to lunch' some times though,
and
the users needed to share the resource without that global view and
central
control. What could they accomplish just between
Complexity Coffee Group
Cc: 'Diegert, Carl F'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] can you have 4 operating systems on one buss?
Phil Henshaw wrote:
The question is about when there are lots of uncontested resources at
first
vs. when things have to switch to negotiating the use of contested
resources
, that triggers either central control or conflict.
Anything come to mind?
Phil
Phil Henshaw wrote:
So a bus, in functional terms, is a 'resource' that never runs into
limits
of the kind where users are forced to learn about each other's
complex needs
in order to figure our how to get
after
exhausting the free resources available to both? It seems that being
forced to negotiate with each other over contested ones might do that. Is
there a computation analog?
Phil Henshaw
It means our rules aren't working, and it's time to switch to better
questions.
... Ask what's happening instead of just what's supposed to be. Maybe let
your thinking drift to the gradients that emergent disorders are feeding on
and where they come from along with the emerging behaviors arising
negative pheromone trail mapping, and that way stay out of trouble.
People might learn something from that perhaps... ;-)
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
is still there in this minority view, it's just that the
purpose of that is quite different.
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
Might there be anyone who knows what to do with a PTO appeals board
decision to not say why they're reversing a previous appeals board
decision, and saying they wouldn't believe the claim even if they saw
the clear evidence of it?
Phil Henshaw
available]
Phil Henshaw AIA AAAS.·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
explorations: www.synapse9.com
, of course, but creating 'info worth getting out' happens
in little 'breweries', to then be carried wide and far by something
else
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
'hubs' in place, particularly the
committed and directly involved funding organization and a few 'boundary
spanning' individuals. If you only have one of the latter the whole
project is in jeopardy of failure if they turn up missing one day.
Phil Henshaw
I think it's that the 'average' wave is a glassy smooth sea...
Statistics seems to depart from reality, for the convenience of science.
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
or... you could use such a model to do the ultimate unthinkable thing of
helping you study the physical world and its (mis)behavioral
differences... :-)
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY
that's about to
take place...! I think infinitesimal 'parsers' might be better at that.
;-)
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
to multiply the money in
the left pocket, while the wealth of the physical world in the right
pocket is leveling off. It's apparent that our thinking about what
each pocket owes the other is mysteriously disconnected!
Phil Henshaw
expectations.
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
explorations: www.synapse9.com
in response to
man's main attempt at 'limitless control'. The Edge seems to see that
as the illusion, not the idea of how hot it would be to reach for ever
greater of control over things we haven't screwed up yet.
Is that about right?
Phil Henshaw
why seems to be an ill-posed question, then, might it be
considered highly useful information too, about what information can
explain v. what we can only point to.
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft
I thought the implication was that the organization of life is an
inherently ill-posed question from an observer's perspective. To me
that either means you accept 'bad answers' or 'better and better
answers', and the difference is methodological.
Phil Henshaw
Glen,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] on 01/02/2008 05:27 PM:
That's nice, describing informality as sneaking in new axioms (or
'understandings', perhaps) in a series of assertions. Of
course it's
all but impossible to not do that,... given the complex way
that ideas
arise out of feelings and
Glen
Phil Henshaw on 01/02/2008 09:25 PM:
Yes, sure, that's an option of interpretation, but does it fit with
the rest of what I was saying? I think there's an interpretation
that fits the data of nature better than any other, so it's reached
as a 'conclusion' not as an 'assumption
Glen,
You write:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] on 01/02/2008 08:51 AM:
Well, feedback loops begin and end too, and that displays an even
greater 'inefficiency' for causation... Just plane old bloody gaps.
The rub is that systems of loops originate for no efficient cause.
That's why I turned the
Nick, what got my interest is the similarity of meaning between 'closed
to efficient causation' and 'have their own behavior', the property of
physical organisms we constantly have to remind ourselves of whenever
dealing with organisms...
Phil Henshaw
organizational development, missing
content on nature 'between our models', but proof rests on things within
a model.
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel
for responding to limits:
http://www.synapse9.com/drafts/WholeSysEfficiencyLimits.pdf
www.synapse9.com/drafts/WholeSysEfficiencyLimits.pdf
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
how it is supposed to
work in the long published economic projections on which the world's
global warming plan is based. www.synapse9.com/design/ClimateLags.pdf
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington
as I suggest?
www.synapse9.com/drafts/WholeSysEfficiencyLimits.pdf
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
e-mail: [EMAIL
of
science, and toward using abstractions to help us learn about the
complex, real and ever changing things of our world.
All the best,
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
decisions are responsible for has a
'fat tail', which makes 90% of it unaccountable. That seems to mean
that all the strategies are missing the main target. Given problematic
indicators like that it seems to we should 'look around' for the hidden
lists of things not represented
Phil Henshaw
?
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
explorations: www.synapse9.com
-Original
different?
Phil Henshaw on 12/06/2007 10:53 AM:
The hard part seems to be to take the first dark step to accepting
there might be a shape of another form that the measures
are missing
(like the whole tree or person). It means looking for how to best
extend and complete your image
a real model fails to fit a real system. Is that right?
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED
Glen,
Phil Henshaw on 12/06/2007 10:53 AM:
The hard part seems to be to take the first dark step to accepting
there might be a shape of another form that the measures
are missing
(like the whole tree or person). It means looking for how to best
extend and complete your image based
Glen,
Excellent! If they're honestly derived from physical things, like
network maps, say, every model is going to be both a 'bad' model and a
helpful one. The principle comes to this complex statement, yes, but I
think also to a simple one that to understand anything you need multiple
measures.
son's terrarium. Very nice, but not the real
thing. Assuming that all behavior is deterministic, just waiting for us
to find the formula, still lingers. It blocks learning about what we
can't write formulas for, though, so I think it should be among the
first things to go.
Phil Henshaw
with hammers and nails,
etc., in general, rather than our experience with this hammer and this
nail in this instance.
All the best,
Nick
- Original Message -
From: Phil Henshaw mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED];The Friday Morning
mailto:friam@redfish.com
that are determined from their surroundings, since
that's where we started?
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
e-mail
What would you call a discipline / degree / body of knowledge that
incorporated in a holistic and deeply integrated way the
following: art, humanities, anthropology, engineering,
visualization,
economics, imagination, science, craft, computation, math,
innovation,
creativity,
-based_p
rojections_for_the_future
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
explorations
be hugely better for the next
president, whoever it is, if this comes out before rather than after they
are elected.
--
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
performance standard to meet.
Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·.
~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
explorations: www.synapse9
Well, one of the most fascinating things about observation is rolled up
in that question. It turns out to be naturally difficult to tell
whether your data reflects behaviors of the environment or of your
method of collecting information.The point is that observation is
always a matter of
...maybe a definition that to go with Yaneer's riddle, and that fits
with all, is that any individual thing is complex beyond measure and any
explanations are all comparatively very simple, differing among them
only by whether they work or not.
Phil Henshaw
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