Dear Listers,
I try to recycle 1 tape with connected sets more than 40 tapes. If
anybody can help me to solve it. Below is the message:
RECYCLE VOLUME(832303)
EXECUTE
ARC0830I RECYCLE COMMAND PROCESSING
STARTING
Paul Gilmartin wrote:
In a recent note, Greg Shirey said:
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 14:51:02 -0500
Is this what you are looking for? (z/OS Version 1.4 JCL User's Guide):
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/iea2b520/4.6.2.1.8?SHELF=EZ2ZO110&DT=20030819153510&CASE
Hi Paul,
In my opinion, this is less a JCL issue and more a JES job management
issue.
For JES3, the Initialization and Tuning Guide gives an elaborate description
of C/I phase, which includes cataloged data sets resolution, followed by a
description of resource allocation.
For JES2, I fould les
Hello,
I'm currently studying an evolution way of our VTS...
So, I'm reading the Virtual Tape Server: Planning, Implementing and Monitoring
Redbooks and it talks about this program...
Does anyone know where can I find it?
Thanks in advance for your help!
PS: Does anyone have some news about the
The way Spooling was done on the pre-S/360 systems, to my
recollection, was with a second computer. The 1410 did I/O for the
7010, for instance. The 1401 was used to to card to tape and tape to
printer for larger computers. The first general multiprogramming
capabilities that I recall we
Batchmagic is a planning tool for IBM and Business Partners .
It is not available for customers .
You may contact IBM or a BP to help you here .
Frank Krueger
Dienstag, 20. September 2005 12:40
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
cc:
From: CAPRON Romain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Where can I found Batch
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 09/19/2005
at 01:09 PM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>The alternative are the systems evolving from the interactive,
>desktop paradigm ... which assume that the responsible person is
>right there and the system can always rely on a human for resolutio
Just go to the tool bar of the browser and click view and source then you
can be responsible for some code. Ain't it great !
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 5:59 PM
To: I
Mark,
I have been advocating this migration in our Sysplex and here are excerpts
from an emails I wrote with links that may help.
The first IBM implementation of tape sharing back in MVS/ESA 5.2.2 had many
faults. The rewrite IBM did a while ago commonly called ATS Star works very
well and is i
In my opinion, this is less a JCL issue and more a JES job management
issue.
For JES3, the Initialization and Tuning Guide gives an elaborate description
of C/I phase, which includes cataloged data sets resolution, followed by a
description of resource allocation.
For JES2, I fould less docum
In a message dated 9/19/2005 10:52:45 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What's a good and very reliable way to write a step which sets its
return code to a particular non-zero value? (2 is ideal since
it's not even warning severity.)
>>
REXX sample:
1.4.3.1 EXIT
Hmm, in my experiments, if the VOLSER is SMS-managed, a JCL error does
indeed occur. It also occurs whether the program attempts to open the data
set or not. (what does the manual mean by "problem program"??) Specifying
a non-SMS-managed VOLSER did result in an S213 abend when the program was
IE
This a is a larger and more intricate topic than it would perhaps appear to
be.
Volker Bandke's suggestion is elegant and entirely adequate to the job of
setting a return code that is to be tested in JCL.
Within applications, those anyway that are executed under the LE, the LE
callable servi
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:07:10 -0300, "Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Does anyone remember where the term spooler comes from? SPOOL =
>>simultaneous peripheral operations on line. The OS/360 Reader-Writer
>> was the first multiprogramming capability that was released.
>
>SPO
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:08:27 -0300, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
>In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 09/18/2005
> at 10:54 AM, Bill Fairchild <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
>>HASP = Houston Automatic Spooling Program;
>
>That's a common error; the P actually stood for Priority.
>
So when (any why) did
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Howard Brazee
>
> [ snip ]
>
> Every time I saw what SPOOL stood for, I laughed at the
> people who pretended that it was better to have an acronym
> than have it mean
> "spool". I wondered if it was for copyright
Hmm, in my experiments, if the VOLSER is SMS-managed, a JCL error does
indeed occur. It also occurs whether the program attempts to open the data
set or not.
If the VOL=SER= specifies a SMS-managed volume, that volser is ignored
and step initiaton does a catalog LOCATE to get the "real" vols
Every time I saw what SPOOL stood for, I laughed at the people who
pretended that it was better to have an acronym than have it mean
"spool". I wondered if it was for copyright purposes, and whether
that would hold up in court.
Howard, I don't understand your point. The term "spool" as we us
Robert Wright wrote:
Don Poitras wrote on 09/18/2005 06:40:33 PM:
Bob's the expert (or is it, Bob's your uncle?), but I couldn't follow
what he was talking about. Like he said, there's lots of ways to do
the same thing in IPCS. To answer your original question (is there a
simple example of
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:50:37 -0400, Bruce Black
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Every time I saw what SPOOL stood for, I laughed at the people who
>>pretended that it was better to have an acronym than have it mean
>>"spool". I wondered if it was for copyright purposes, and whether
>>that would hol
In a recent note, Ed Finnell said:
> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 08:54:03 EDT
>
> In a message dated 9/19/2005 10:52:45 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> What's a good and very reliable way to write a step which sets its
> return code to a particular non-zero valu
looking for task or guidelines to eliminate 3490 and implement 9840s working a
projec to do this and was hoping someone alreay went through this process. Help!
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See below...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Greetings all!
I'm getting ready to merge my existing OS/390 2.9 mcat with the new
mcat created by the ServerPac install for z/OS 1.4. I've not worked a
lot with catalogs and I have some questions before I really pooch
something.
Why are you using the Fu
SPOOL
s(imultaneous) p(eripheral) o(perations) o(n) l(ine).
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=spool
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Mark Vollmer wrote on 09/20/2005 10:00:41 AM:
>
> My system did not allocate IPCSPARM for my IPCS sessions. It appeared
> to get its various IPCS parm information from another DD.
>
IPCSPARM is optional and best omitted if you're looking at dumps from the
system on which you're running or anothe
On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 09:23 -0500, Mike Liberatore wrote:
> looking for task or guidelines to eliminate 3490 and implement 9840s
> working a projec to do this and was hoping someone alreay went through
> this process.
Those Eagles (you're talking about 9840C, right?) hold about 100 times
more data
Hi all,
I'm trying to make a 3490-F11 create 18 track 3480 type tapes. I believe I
may have succeeded, but the real test is in seeing if the tape I created
can be read by a 3480 drive. So, I'm wondering if anyone with 3480 drives
would be willing to read a tape for me and let me know if it w
OK, I'll admit that I'm sort of goofing off on this one. I was curious
about the initial format of a never used page dataset. It appears to be
quite simple except for one thing. What I have determined is:
1) The entire dataset is formatted into 4K physical block. This makes
sense.
2) Every block
Hi, All,
A question has arisen about the sizes of extents shown for a VSAM linear
dataset:
ALLOCATION
SPACE-TYPE--CYLINDER HI-A-RBA---305971200
SPACE-PRI250 HI-U-RBA---304750592
SPACE-SEC--5
VOLUME
VOLSERDBA190 PHYREC-SIZE--
In a message dated 9/20/2005 8:40:13 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>So when (any why) did IBM change the meaning? I've always thought it
>was Program and almost all the old IBM system journals I've been
>looking at recently (thanks again Sam!) refer to it as Program,
In a message dated 9/20/2005 9:30:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>SPOOL
>s(imultaneous) p(eripheral) o(perations) o(n) l(ine).
>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=spool
>From Merriam-Webster's online English dictionary: "a cylindrical device
which has a r
Thanks everyone. I have a volunteer for my test and will be mailing out
the tape today!
Sylvia
At 10:07 AM 9/20/2005, Sylvia Gorman wrote:
Hi all,
I'm trying to make a 3490-F11 create 18 track 3480 type tapes. I believe
I may have succeeded, but the real test is in seeing if the tape I cre
Sylvia Gorman wrote:
Hi all,
I'm trying to make a 3490-F11 create 18 track 3480 type tapes. I
believe I may have succeeded, but the real test is in seeing if the tape
I created can be read by a 3480 drive. So, I'm wondering if anyone with
3480 drives would be willing to read a tape for me
Hi Paul,
I've got an assembler program that takes the return code in the PARM:
//SETRCEXEC PGM=SETRC,PARM='2',COND=...
Would you like it?
Best regards,
Ray
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Hi all,
We are using a Z/OS callable services (BPX1SPN) to create a child process
to run a specified executable file (ssh to be exact) from PL/I program.
According to the manual z/OS V1R4.0 UNIX System Services Programming:
Assembler Callable Service Reference the arguments must be coded :
a) Ar
It's even sillier on VM.
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point was to make sure it was reading 18, if he uses 3490E how will he know
what it was reading it as, he will only know it was read successfully
by using 3480 he knows for sure.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thanks, John. That's good info.
Now here's the down-'n-dirty:
We are so far behind that we are doing a full system replacement. The
z/OS loadlibs are on RES050 and RES051. The 2.10 system res is SYSR02.
After we settle into a regular maintenance program, we'll move
This is the result of VSAM Extent Constraint Relief introduced in DF/SMS 1.3.
See http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg246979.pdf
This allowed extents which are allocated contigious to the previous extent to
be combined as one extent. The second extent is really 10 contigious 5 cyl
e
Mark,
See my last post. Did you also add it to exit routines? Is it enabled?
EXIT(005) ROUTINES=(name on $ENTRY),STATUS=ENABLED
This did the trick. When I bounced test and tried the $REPEXIT,EXIT3
command, it gave me:
$HASP000 EXIT3replaced
OK so far.
What do you see if you issue
Larry,
Bexar County in San Antonio, Tx. has two open SysProg slots.
-Original Message-
From: John S. Giltner, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 10:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Job wanted - but I'm not even sure where to look anymore!
Larry Wi
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of David Kreiss
>
> This is the result of VSAM Extent Constraint Relief
> introduced in DF/SMS 1.3.
>
> See http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg246979.pdf
>
> This allowed extents which are allocated contigi
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 08:56:25 -0700, Ray Mullins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hi Paul,
>
>I've got an assembler program that takes the return code in the PARM:
>
>//SETRCEXEC PGM=SETRC,PARM='2',COND=...
>
>Would you like it?
>
IDCAMS works good for 1-15. This exec should work fine for
anythin
OK..now here's the latest on trying to get this exit to work. I am
replacing Exit3 which is our jobclass/time checker. I created a new 'T'
jobclass in Exit3 which is currently active, then removed it from the
exit, reassm/relink'd, did the $REPEXIT,EXIT3 command, got the $HASP000
messag
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:14:28 -0500, Adam Floro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>$HASP000 EXIT3replaced
>
>OK so far.
Yepper. So you have $REPEXIT working.
>
>
>
>OK..now here's the latest on trying to get this exit to work. I am
>replacing Exit3 which is our jobclass/time checker. I cre
John,
I think you have it correct. The second block has a timestamp.
I wrote a program to read the first record of the PLPA and had to change
it to read the
second page (see below) to report on the creation date/time of the PLPA.
Used it to verify a CLPA really got done at IPL time.
The firs
AFAIK you cannot. All you can is to write 36-track data on CST cart.
You can write 18-track data on CST cart and then read it in 36-track
drive.
Hints: 18-track is 3480 (also 3480X, 3490), 36-track is 3490E.
36-track drive can write 36-track data and *read* 18-track data.
we discussed this a
Hi,
We have a little program that can be used :
*-*
* PROGRAM- PGMRC *
* AUTHOR - BRADESCO - ITURIEL*
*
I have a user who has a COBOL program that is HUGE and we can't get it to
compile.
We've altered the SIZE from MAX down to 8192K and have set the compiler
region to 64M.
If we get SIZE too low (like 8192K) the compile fails with a message
suggesting we
increase it.
What else can it tweak to
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan C. Field
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:48 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: COBOL Compiler Help
>
>
> I have a user who has a COBOL program that is HUGE and we
> can'
This compiler: PP 5655-G53 IBM ENTERPRISE COBOL FOR Z/OS 3.3.1
Various abends, but primarily 878, 80A, FETCH faliures depending on
various SIZE and REGION combinations.
Seems to me a program that big should be rewritten but I'm probably not
going
to win that battle till I can show there is no
The subject document is published. It may be accessed on the IBM web site
at the following URL:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/a2278324.pdf
Jim Mulder z/OS System Test IBM Corp. Poughkeepsie, NY
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It *is* possible to use indirect cataloging , even though data
sets might be on &SYSR1 on one release and &SYSR2 for the other
release.
You can define another symbol, let's say &SYS12, for those data
sets that are on &SYSR1 on the old release and &SYSR2 on the new
release. Catalog those data sets
Allan,
Last time this happened to me, the only way I could get program to compile
was to turn OPTIMIZE off.
>>Allan wrote:
>>I have a user who has a COBOL program that is HUGE and we can't get it to
>>compile.
>>We've altered the SIZE from MAX down to 8192K and have set the compiler
>>region to
Alan C. Field wrote:
This compiler: PP 5655-G53 IBM ENTERPRISE COBOL FOR Z/OS 3.3.1
Various abends, but primarily 878, 80A, FETCH faliures depending on
various SIZE and REGION combinations.
Seems to me a program that big should be rewritten but I'm probably not
going
to win that battle till
These are some of my old notes on where things occur in the
life of a step, at a fairly high level. I believe they
are all still valid, and may help understand some of the
various issues raised in this thread, but I'm certainly
open for updates, especially if there is anything other
than DSENQ th
Jim Mulder wrote:
The subject document is published. It may be accessed on the IBM web site
at the following URL:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/a2278324.pdf
Jim Mulder z/OS System Test IBM Corp. Poughkeepsie, NY
Great! Thanks, Jim.
Kind regards,
-Steve Comstock
---
Jim, you posted at 1:59. Apparently by 2:10, most of the IBM-MAIN list
was downloading it. It took me about 5 minutes, which is exceptionally
long. But it is much appreciated.
--
Bruce A. Black
Senior Software Developer for FDR
Innovation Data Processing 973-890-7300
personal: [EMAIL PROTE
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Black
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 1:37 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/Architecture Principles of Operation (SA22-7832-04)
>
>
> Jim, you posted at 1:59. Appa
I've been prowling through the z/OS C and LE documentation and am having
trouble putting some of the pieces together. If there is a better list to
post to, please let me know.
I have a situation where a non-LE system provides an exit point passing a
number of parameters. I have exits in COBOL wh
Thanks for the suggestions -
Fiddled with the size some more, reduced BUFSIZE and
made the BLKSIZE smaller on the SYSIN and SYSPRINT datasets.
FInally got a complete compile.
Alan
"Alan C. Field" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
09/20/2005 12:48
Please respond
Allan Scherr wrote:
[snip]
> For the MVS release, which
> occurred about 15 months later, the HASP and ASP groups were drafted
> into the product development division. They were generally upset
> about being subjected to the discipline of the more formal
> development process we used. My
>From the fact that you report (in another note) "S8xx" ABENDs and *not* a
"user-friendly" U-level compiler message, it seems to be the "job
itself" that has a problem, not the compiler reaching some internal limit.
HOWEVER, I would suggest trying to compile with
NOOPT
NOSSRANGE
(if you ar
We had a Power-On Reset a couple of weeks ago -- performed by our SE -- to
install some additional memory on our z890. Said POR played hob with several
things (among them our ICC console definitions) and I now find that I am unable
to make any dynamic I/O configuration changes. I get the follo
In a recent note, Mark Zelden said:
> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:26:01 -0500
> Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>
> Sender: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>
> From: Mark Zelden <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Setting Com
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Brock
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:50 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: IOS500I reason 167 - POR?
>
>
> We had a Power-On Reset a couple of weeks ago -- performed by
>
How about REGION=0M and no IEFUSI limit.
You may also try NOOPTIMZE for such a huge program.
Roland
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan C. Field
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re:
I think yes.We had a similar problem due to human error.
On the 2084, if you do a POR from the SE it will use the default RESET
profile. The default RESET profile for the 2084 has DYNAMIC I/O changes OFF.
So HSA is calculated with only the defined devices.
We MUST use the RESET profile for t
Allan Scherr wrote:
> The way Spooling was done on the pre-S/360 systems, to my recollection,
> was with a second computer. The 1410 did I/O for the 7010, for
> instance. The 1401 was used to to card to tape and tape to printer for
> larger computers. The first general multiprogramming capab
I am seeing short term paging spikes (zOS 1.4 system) at around 6am. No
dumps happening, just a rapid drop in AFQ and then a spike of 500 pages /
sec... for a about 1 min.
Can anyone recommend how to find out who the causer is? Do SMF records
capture this? The stuff I see doesn't have the granula
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:45:39 -0600, Paul Gilmartin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In a recent note, Mark Zelden said:
>
>
>> IDCAMS works good for 1-15. This exec should work fine for
>> anything else.
>>
>The RM states a maximum of 16. Does not state a minimum.
>Empirically, 0 works.
Yep. My ba
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:58:37 -0500, Bob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I am seeing short term paging spikes (zOS 1.4 system) at around 6am. No
>dumps happening, just a rapid drop in AFQ and then a spike of 500 pages /
>sec... for a about 1 min.
>Can anyone recommend how to find out who the causer is
Last time I noticed something like this, we put it down to "early
starters".
Online regions not getting used overnight, wound up getting (heavily)
trimmed. First arrival in the morning whacks the "Enter" key and (probably)
strolls off to get a coffee.
Different office, similar scenario, but hitting
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Specht
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 1:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Non-LE ASM calling C function - PList and runtime reuse
questions
<- SNIP---
Try:
//SYSUT1 DD DATA,DLM=@@
"smtp commands"
@@
// DD DSN=t116.data.file,DISP=SHR
You might have to add, LRECL=???,RECFM=?? to the SYSUT1 DD statment,
where LRECL/RECFM is the LRECL/RECFM of te16.data.file. My have to add
BLKSIZE also.
I'm not sure, but I think we had problems attem
John,
Take a look at APAR OW55297 on IBMLINK. It has a high-level description of
what you're
seeing on the Page Datasets. It also has references to other manuals.
I printed the 1st block for a couple of my Page Datasets ( they were
formatted by a z/OS R4
system and are being used by active z/OS
Have anyone used the long-displacement facility instructions
(as in consistently do so to reduce base register usage) ?
Are there any pitfalls or limitations that a relatively
inexperienced programmer should be aware of ?
Btw, why is there no "MVCY" instruction ? Is it because of
the existence of
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 04:10:47 +0200, Thomas Berg wrote:
>Have anyone used the long-displacement facility instructions
>(as in consistently do so to reduce base register usage) ?
>Are there any pitfalls or limitations that a relatively
>inexperienced programmer should be aware of ?
>Btw, why is there
In a message dated 9/20/2005 6:49:10 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Any ideas are appreciated.
>
>>
Probably a SYNCSORT bug, but have you tried Lionel's
XMITIP? Can do TXT2PDF and the sample shows a PDF with
greenbar mask. Think it's still at _www.lbdsoftware.com
Greg,
Thanks but I wasn't explicit enough in what I was
asking for. The issue is that the exit is called with
a structured parameter list (R1->list of parm
addresses which each point to a parameter) not a JCL
parm field. The exit is really a subfunction so the
normal C argc/argv isn't right.
Ri
Ah, yes, how to get an opcode and two Y-format operands
into a single 6-byte instruction :)
Thomas Berg wrote:
> Have anyone used the long-displacement facility instructions
> (as in consistently do so to reduce base register usage) ?
> Are there any pitfalls or limitations that a relatively
Greetings,
I am in need of Netview FTP SMF Records to Test DAF.
Cheers,
Michael
http://www.geocities.com/michaeljosephcleary/
===
Instructions:
1) Creat the SMF file with IFASMFDP and XMIT the SMF
file (JCL below)
2) do a binary transfer of the XMIT file to your PC
Thomas,
We have used the long-displacement instructions to allow for the generation of
additional "compiled" code over the short-displacement instructions, if the
machine environment supports them, removing the old size limitations of +/-
64K. It was really not all that difficult to implement
Well, the implementation problem is not mine... :)
And whats wrong with 8 bytes instructions in these 64-bits days... :)
== Greg Price == wrote2005-09-21 05:01:
Ah, yes, how to get an opcode and two Y-format operands
into a single 6-byte instruction :)
Thomas Berg wrote:
Thanks, was it any problems regarding certain instructions/operations
and if so, had you some interestion solutions for them ?
TIA
Thomas Berg
== Tom Harper == wrote2005-09-21 05:41:
Thomas,
We have used the long-displacement instructions to allow for the generation of addition
I *know* this isn't the correct answer (as it applies to COBOL programs),
but if you look at:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/ceea5160/2.7.3
Does this look like it MIGHT provide any clues for what you want?
P.S. Have you looked at:
http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/c
Jon,
You do have some control over HSA size using the "Max number of devices"
parameter in the IODF. However, from what I noticed, this makes very little
change, even when decreased by tens of thousands.. It seems the "base" HSA
size for the machine is what makes the big difference -- we noticed
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