Dear Benjamin, and all,
My lute building career ceased before I finished my first real one
(still have the form and the body staves I'd made), so what I say may be
irrelevant. My interest moved to the Celtic harp, but I did make - and
still play - the "flat back" lute from Musikits (13 string,
I built a 63+ cm. length lute some years back, actually a "bastard" lute
in that it was Music Maker's "flatback". I had the breakage problem with
the chanterelle also - I was pitching to A440 and tuning to G. Musical
nylon would last a few days, nylgut would break almost immediately. I
went to
I'm not good at choosing the wood as the only lute I've built (a flat
back) was from a kit - but I will second, and doubly second, Richard's
comments on the weight of the neck and peg box as to the balance of the
instrument.
The hand position on the lute is different than that on the guitar as
Sterling,
I'm sort of a lurker on this list, I had started building a lute some
years ago - after getting interested by making the Music Maker's flat
back to see if I could handle the play. Medical matters have taken me
away from the lute, but I retain interest. I still play, and sometimes
re
Spruce and cedar, sycamore and (something else I've forgotten). The
taxonomy of trees is confused by the local names. The English have
different local names than Americans (that is the sycamore, and my
forgotten English name). The pear I turn for hollow forms is not the
pear of Europe - it is c
Bill and Ted,
I think the nature of mahogany would be counter to the needs of the lute
ribs. I've had mahogany "bodied" guitars, but the form of the lute and
the sound production is different. As a "joining piece" between the ribs
it should work, but the resonating body of the lute is differen
Stuart, and all,
The problem with the old instruments is the naming. We moderns have a
bit better communications than they had. A name could change across
boundaries and languages. It is said that the name of the lute comes
from the Arabic word for wood - "oud". A likely scenario is that when
I converted a Bolivian charango into a Scot's mandora a few years back,
I was working from Ronn's tunings in his Scottish Lute book (and CD).
The mandora itself is a relatively large instrument in the lute family -
the Scot's mandora is an entirely different beastie (the Scots probably
just too
I concur with Howard on Japanese chisels, the lamination is sort of an
analog of the Samurai sword - the cutting edge is softer so as to not be
brittle and can be sharpened with a touch up, the body is hard to
maintain form.
There is another advantage, the grooved back allows one to sharpen on
I'm published, even if only on-line. I have received the princely sum
of $100 (in the form of a gift certificate) from Highland Woodworking
for an article in their on-line Wood News. The topic is the small shop,
and the link is
[1]www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodnews/2009april/bedroo
Tim,
I'm an amateur also, but isn't the pitch determined by the density and
breaking strength of the string as well as its length? And, of course the
response of the instrument is determined by a number of factors, including
volume of the bowl, size of the rose, and the makeup and bracing of
I wonder about the matter of technical drawings, and am comfortable about
writing on the topic since David V. has entered into the discussion. A
gentleman who understands the instrument, and the variations.
The lute isn't a single instrument, in the sense of the modern guitar. As I
understand
just have to check in now and then when you are quiet.
Best, Jon
- Original Message -
From:
To: "lute-builder"
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:08 PM
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Test
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009, Jon Murphy said:
Haven't seen anything from Lute Builde
Lundberg's book has been on my shelves for about five years (give or take).
I also have David van Edward's on-line book. Medical problems stopped my
scratch lute building temporarly, but I find the combination of the two to
be worth having. David covers things that Robert left out, and Robert co
OK, got my message on the lute builder list, I'm still alive - are you .
Best, Jon
- Original Message -
From: "Jon Murphy"
To: "lute-builder"
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:44 PM
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Test
Haven't seen anything from Lut
Haven't seen anything from Lute Builders since Duncan's 3/14 message on
pictures. Just checking to see if I'm still on the list. No response
necessary, I'll see my own test message if I'm still alive.
Best, Jon
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To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.
Laurence,
You have gotten a lot of great advice here both on tools and process, got to
stick my oar in again (as a wood carver and wood turner as well as making
instruments).
Dana correctly mentioned taking the grain into account, but I'd like to add
a bit (that I know he is aware of). I do
As a wood carver, and wood turner, as well as making musical instruments,
may I make a comment on the tools for carving the rosette.
First we have to establish if you are making the rosette as an insert to a
round hole in the soundboard, that isn't the recommended proceedurre, but it
is an app
I confess I haven't read through this thread, and have little to offer in
details. But in 1959 I bought a classical guitar in Spain, a decent one
although not top of the line. I was there on the tab of my Uncle Sam on one
of his haze grey yachts, I was some months at sea in varying climates befo
Brod,
I think the most difficult part is getting started, my eight course has been
in progress for three years (no work on it for the last two due to moving
and a minor medical problem, the removal of a leg). I intend to get back to
it shortly. I have the ribs (bowl staves) made to thickness -
Didn't move Tim, just a little levity to excuse my bad habit of staying up
until the hours long after the wee ones. I was trying to pretend that it was
still the "night before" when it was becoming the "morning after" in
progressively western time zones. Still here in NJ.
Best, Jon
To get on
What an enjoyable thread, I will read the rest of it tomorrow to avoid being
up until midnight Hawaiian time zone. But I must insert a comment on
historical construction. I think I'll make a Greek lyre tomorrow, in my
spare time. The tetrachord (and the name of the instrument escapes me) was
tr
I have not looked at this list in a long time, mea culpa, but I see the last
message I received was from 7/8 - the barring system from alexandros.
Perhaps I am off the list (happens now and then when one's host site is
temporarily out), or perhaps, as Alexandros wonders, all are on vacation).
Duncan,
You have already received your answer, but may I add to it. Any shape can be
drawn with a compass and a ruler, given enough time and effort you could
draw the complex curves (both convex and concave) of a cove on the coast of
New England (or Old England, or anywhere else). The modern d
Received my message, I'm on line (and I found all my lost lute-builder
messages).
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I haven't seen anything on the list for a while - my host has made some
changes, perhaps I'm off list. Let's see if this comes back to me
Best, Jon
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I'll not quarrel with Din's list, nor with Tim on the source of hand tools,
but will make a couple of comments of my own.
I live about five minutes from the Englishtown (NJ) Auction - it is not an
auction but a flea market that covers a number of acres on the weekends.
Some things sold there h
I will compete for the smallest workshop - my 5' x 6' former walkin closet
contained my entire shop (except for the hand work in my favorite arm chair
in the living room). It has since expanded into my bedroom to avoid having
to heft one tool off the bench and replace it with another.
I do hav
What a pleasure it is to participate in a list with such people. We have
three approaches to the forming of a lute body. We have three experts
advocating their own approach (two of them the primary sources, David and
Dan - and the third a student of the late Bob L.), and we have no argument.
So
Ooops, meant YMCA, jwm
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Rob,
Your answer reminds me of an incident when I was a kid in a WMCA summer
camp. We had an "overnight" camp out in tents (a long trek of about a mile
from the base camp ). The counselors couldn't get the fire started with
matches, the kindling was a bit damp. One of the said "let's use the o
ed, but the steady hand less
so when the tool is taking a minimal cut. It may take a bit more time for
the beginner than the expert, but the result can be the same.
Best, Jon
- Original Message -----
From: "Din Ghani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Rob Dorsey&
Mike,
Glad to be back! I'm going to append a message to you below your quoted
message so that the entire list doesn't have to read it. But I send it to
the list because some might be interested. JWM.
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PRO
Rob,
I envy you your 5 years of study with Bob Lundberg, and have no quarrel with
his methods to the extent that they are represented in his book. I'm glad to
have the book on my shelves as a cross reference and backup to David van
Edwards' course. I don't regret the "dual expenditure" in havi
Troy,
You have two good suggestions from Din and Rob. My lute is temporarily on
hold for medical reasons, but I invested in both the Lundberg book
"Historical Lute Construction" and van Edwards CD-ROM.
For Din, I only have two and a half years into my lute. A stroke two years
ago left me wit
Perhaps I am a fool, but I often wonder about "faithful reproductions" when
it comes to cosmetics. To me a faithful reproduction would be using a wood
and a shape that would duplicate the experience of the old time player -
instruments are made to be played, not to be visual replications. The be
n't have fit into his armor as display!
ed in the NYC Metropolitan Museum.
Make an instrument that sounds like the original, but make it to fit your
hands.
Best, Jon
- Original Message -
From: Juan Fco. Prieto
To: Jon Murphy ; lutelist ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:
Juan,
I hesitate to interject here, I am a very amateur lutenist (and although I
still receive the email from the lute-list I direct it to a separate "inbox"
as it is so voluminous). This came to me through the lute-builder list.
I am not a purist for the instrument, I play a kit version of wha
I have a 63cm VL lute, it is over length for a G chanterelle. (The kit maker
has shrunk his lute by a bit since I communicated with him).
Look at Andrea Damiani's book, as translated from the Italian by our list
member Doc Rossi. Without going into details of string characteristics
Damiani lists t
Murphy is alive and well, and quite busy. But I thought I'd toss in my
opinion on maintaining pitch. As most of you know I play and make harps (as
well as making one lute, and playing it). Pitch, as we all know, it a matter
of the tension and length of the string (given the string guage). Any chang
As the movie trailer said, "Hee's back",
Woodworking and luthiery. I haven't read the entire thread as I've been a
bit busy with all the damned doctors keeping me alive (and they've done a
good job, I expect make it another 30 years and check out when I reach three
digits, or later).
I do work wi
I am reminded of the days when I was a salesman of government bonds - as the
pricing decision approached the various salesmen would announce out loud the
interest from customers, many of whom were State funds. One called off State
of Minnesota, State of Iowa, State of Confusion, State of Michigan.
Nick,
The exception that proves the rule.
> The basic answer is that 63cm is too long to comfortably tune to G at
> modern pitch A440.
My "flat-back" is 63.5 cm VL, and I tune it to G. But there is no musical
string that will hold that at that length. The closest is a nylon string,
I've held G w
Stewart,
The rose has no real effect on the sound except as it releases the enclosed
sound chamber. That is an incorrect statement, but it is "close enough for
government work". The guitar and most other "lute family" stringed
instruments have merely the sound hol. But the lute does have a diffent
Herbert,
Taco has given you a good answer, but let me add to it (I make my own pegs).
The peg is hardwood, and so is the pegbox. There is wear on both. If each
were perfect, like the legendary One Horse Shay that had every part so
perfectly matched that it never wore out until the whole thing fell
Charles,
I have to add to this thread without reading the many messages in it - I'm a
bit behind in my reading having recently had a stroke myself. So pardon me
if I say things already said by others.
Music Therapy is bullshit, but music is therapeutic. As a harpist I've been
in some discussions
Howdy saw (or new boy, and I agree with Stewart that a real name signature
is more approprate to this list).
I'll leave the matters of play (thumb under or over) at to the plucking of
both strings to the real lutenists, but suffiice to say that is is a "long
finger" that avoids the nails. I'll spe
I yet have difficulty understanding the purist as I'm not sure how one
defines what is pure. Yes we can attempt to duplicate the several string
formats of old, and we can duplicate the instrument from museum pieces (but
never exactly how they sounded together). But can we duplicate the tempi of
the
There are emergencies and then there are necessities. My "flat back" was
designed too with too long a VL for a G tuning of the chanterelle, a fact
that the kit maker has corrected in his new version (due to my input). You
all know that gut has a lower breaking pitch (given length) than the
syntheti
> jim abraham wrote:
>
> > I'm wondering if thumb under
> > would be less stressful.
>
> I can't think of a reason why it would be, but the only way you'll ever
> know is to try it for a while.
I doubt that the problem is your thumb under or over technique. More likely
it is the actual movement
Hello New boy,
RT has given you the answers, but as usual they are rather cryptic. Having
played guitar for over 55 years now, and the lute for about a year and a
half, I may be able to help on your questions.
Firstly unless you are you are incredibly talented you aren't a guitar
player yet (in 9
Somewhere in my files of printouts, or in my bookshelves, I have a reference
to a German tuning with A=380. I don't remember the era, but as all my
research is on harps and lutes - and I haven't looked at harp pitches - I
assume it was on the lute. I think it was probably something referenced by
Ep
Oops, I hadn't followed to the bottom of Howard's message. Now having looked
at his link I see my one verse was a part of the words. And the rest are
quite familiar - Tyrconnel and the rest. But I question the reference to the
Battle of the Boyne (when "King Billy" won). And also question the words
Ho by my soul it is the Talbott,
Lillibulero bullen a la,
And he will cut all de English throat,
Lilibulero bullen a la.
Lero, lero etc. (chorus)
I don't remember the rest of the verses, but it seems to match Howard's
derivation from 1641. "The Talbott" would match the use of a name as a title
t
Scalpels and chisels, carbon steel and stainless.
As you all have said it is a matter of purpose. Stainless does sterilize
better, but it is also true that surgical instruments are now disposable.
I'll not blame it entirely on the lawyers, but in these days of litigation
and awareness of contamina
I basically agree with everyone, but choose this message to respond to as
I've a bit of disagreement here.
> Probably because they make a lot more selling slick-looking but poorly
made crap to consumers who don't know any better... Also, there isn't
really a big enough market for the more special
Craig,
> Indeed. Um, you don't own any rocking chairs do you?
My cat solved the rocking chair problem, she springs to the seat and then to
the top, and rides the waves. But then she may be planning ahead about the
tails of any potential feline interlopers.
Best, Jon
To get on or off this lis
Carl,
Congratulations on the litter, and for taking in the stray. I note that the
expected comments on lute string supplies have come in. My one cat (the vet
calls her "dilute tortoise shell", I call her muddy grey) is a feral
refugee. Born in a friend's garage with littermates, but then taken bac
Eugene,
My lady of over thirty years (we still "live in sin", but don't tell the
grandchildren of our trangression) has a phrase. "Ask Murphy the time and
he'll tell you how to build a watch".
> Wow. There's a whole lot of writing going on here to clrify Herbert's
inquiry into what, I'm pretty s
an say that others of a
similar time played differently, and others of near but different times
played differently.
Best, Jon
- Original Message -
From: "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
Herbert,
Alan has given you a good answer but may I add a bit. And my use of terms
may be argued. I have a problem with the word "grain" as applied to the
annular rings versus to "planing with the grain". Close grainded wood is
wood with small annular rings, according to the definitions I've seen.
Wayne,
> I have found that using the lightest classical guitar strings
> (medium??) and tuning a pitch low gives a lower tension
> to the strings. The guitar won't sound as good as a lute,
> and it won't sound as good as a regularly strung classical
> guitar, but it will hael you work on lute rh
Chris,
> Unfortunately, playing a modern classical guitar
> without nails is like playing a ren lute with nails.
> The modern guitar was built for nylon strings (all
> instruments since WWII) and made with the nails in
> mind.
I've been playing a Spanish/Classical guitar for fifty years without
Stewart,
You make a fine point by not taking a position on terminology. There is no
"cat's head" on a ship, although the Romans did have the heads of lions and
tigers and bears (with apologies to the Wizard of Oz). But your comments do
have a certain validity. There is a "cat head" on an old saili
Craig,
I asked Wayne if he could add the [LUTE] in the Dartmouth software to this
list. It makes it much easier to filter the mail (all my other lists use
such a prefix). But I suggest that it isn't badly written email software
that causes the recurrance of Re's and Fw's, it is the misuse of it by
Thomas,
I am not in the market as I'm broke and building my own lute from a
combination of Bob Lundberg's book and David van E.'s course. But I have to
congratulate you, or Gerd, for including the lovely picture of Bob with his
lute. He died long before I became involved with the lute, but I felt
Stewart,
A fine analysis of tempo and divisions. But I have to punt on this one. Is
it faster or slower? We can't know. And the note values can't tell us. Take
modern staff notation with the metronome beat assigned to the piece. The
tempo signature indicates the emphasis within the measure, not th
Concur with Edward and Howard. And will add that on both lute and harp
(opposites in the way the tension is applied, parallel versus
semi-perpendicular) the lose of one string is a tiny fraction of total
tension. And that a release of tension (stress actually) won't hurt the
instrument - in fact it
Being uniformed on this thread I'll say "I don't know no MO". I have some
knowledge of piracy, but only on the high seas. Is it so important (and it
might be for the personal income of the individuals involved) that this list
be dedicated to the finding of rights for publication. If that is the cas
Stuart,
> The passage from Segovia's autobiography which I vaguely remember goes
something
> like:
>
> "You play the guitar to woo your lover. When you are betrayed by your
lover,
> you play the cello to tell your sorrows to your friend. When you are
betrayed
> by your friend, you play the organ
If anyone among you knows Philadelphia it is the home of many tracks. The
process of riding a train from NYC to Washington involves getting through
about twenty tracks, and sub tracks, in Philadelphia. Thirtieth St. Station,
Broad Street, and a number of others. And they all wind and mix at low
spe
Nicely said,
But there is yet the question as to what note is correct. I'm sure we all
know the format of the tempering of the natural scale, but that has put a
memory scale into our heads that is the equal temperament "piano" scale.
But you have made the point, the sound in one's head is the goa
sense of a beating, merely for a gentle correction with the
facts. Should we deny the speculative answers then we would lose the threads of
consciousness that lead to real answers.
Best, Jon
----- Original Message -
From: Arthur Ness
To: Jon Murphy ; LGS-Europe ; Lute Net ; [EMAIL
Also OT,
In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). "The
guitar is an orchestra unto itself". I have no idea where I saw it, or heard
it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is
accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guita
Herbert,
I like all the answers so far, when I was "singing for my supper" I always
opened with the same simple piece - I played it before introducing the
program. Call it a "signature piece" instead of a prelude if you want. And
Craig suggests a breathing for relaxation, but as one who likes his
Howard,
You have a point here, but if the point is that there is not a difference in
the difficulty of a sound on different wind instruments then you are wrong.
When I lost that best of instruments (due to age, cigareets, whuskey - and
the wild, wild wimmen probably had nothing to do with it - bu
Tony,
> P.S. Does anyone else who dabbles in different instruments experience the
> same phenomenon as I do, one example of which is that I can play the gamba
> from alto clef, but I can't read it on the keyboard?
>
> TC
Yes, in a sense. I play double strung harp (along with other instruments).
M
Alain,
I haven't the vaguest idea of what you are talking about.
> Tony,
> His real name is Spaminabocks,
> Alain
But I think I agree with you.
I promised myself some time ago not to get into the nit-picking of words and
HIP details on this list, but I am weak and broke my promise to myself.
C
Right on Gary,
And that is why we have dynamics. I leave yours below intentionally, then
comment.
> Dear Stewart;
>
> Regarding the situation you described of two viols playing:
>
>
> __a__c__d___
>
>
>
>
>
> and
>
> __
Nancy,
I think you've found the crux of the issue.
> This is an interesting case, but not completely relevant to the early
music
> we are discussing on this list. From what I have read the case had a lot
to
> do with the money Hyperion made selling the CDs and didn't pay to Dr.
> Sawkins, who rec
> This depends on whether you are able to extract the original music from
> Bunting's icing.
> Not an easy task.
> RT
No way, that icing was on a cake that had been baked over time. For some
pieces there are other collections that have the originals as played by the
people who had listened to the
Charles,
This raises the interesting question as to what is an arrangement. My harp
ensemble is preparing for a Christmas perfomance (among other things, but
this is a "pay for our supper" performance for the Church that allows us to
use their parish house for our practice).
One piece we intend t
> > Transliteration (not mentioned in this thread), the rewriting of words
> into a different language using exact definitions or lettering. Not always
> an accurate reflection of meaning.
> Wrong. Transliteration is rewriting of words into a different alphabet,
> essentially the same thing as tra
Let us put the question of pitch to bed. Pitch, in the sense of Hertz, or
vibrations per second, is a relatively modern concept. The size of the
instrument dictated pitch (tune just below where the chanterelle breaks).
Renaissance lute music isn't pitched to an absolute key in our sense of the
keys
RT,
I both agree and disagree, which makes me indecisive on the face of it.
Nothing is original, and everything is. I just bought the Bunting book
facsimile (1840) that transcribes, and arranges for piano forte, the harp
music of Ireland - "in order to preserve it". I have some of the same pieces
Arthur,
This is a silly thread, words are wonderful but they also can have various
interpretations. To paraphrase The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, "we don't need
no stinkin' dictionaries".
Transcription, a copy from one form to another - or a direct copy to another
medium. From the roots "t
In defense of Michael Thames, and in defense of logic.
Arrangement is a particular interference with the piece of music. I spent
the weekend at the Somerset Harp Festival and was able to buy the "Bunting"
book (of 1840) in facsimile. Bunting arranged the old Irish harp music, that
he had collected
I am reminded of an old joke. The searcher for truth is in search of the
ultimate guru. He travels to India and Napal, he works his way through the
villages, climbing ever higher into the Himalayas. He follows every lead in
his search. After years of trekking, and always uphill, he finally comes to
Michael,
> Ed are you basing your theory on iconographical evidence? If so, Baron
> very clearly states to play half way between the rose and the bridge, at
> least for the German style. I think with less tension one could risk the
> clashing of courses, when played with any forcefulness, some t
Michael,
> I couldn't tell you the physical principles involved. Maybe it has to
do
> with friction and mass, and the fact they play with rest stroke.
>All I can say is it true! and Paco plays 10 times as fast as
any
> of the guys you mentioned, and plays with nails... I know this
Matt, got to this one second - already answered your direct email.
Thanks for the historical references, they are interesting and informative.
You properly say that the p/i "thumb under" technique derives from the use
of the quill pick in the early music. As do others in this thread (including
my
Wow,
What a description, and what a lot of BS (with all due respect to the
writers). I may be a beginner, but I play a few other stringed instruments.
I love the feel and sound of "thumb under" when playing runs, it duplicates
the feel of the pick that was the original form of lute playing (even i
Chad,
I declared the guitar unclean when one had to say "acoustic" to distinguish
it from the beastie called guitar today. But your point is well taken. You
are referring to the instrument we used to call the guitar, some of the
younger folks may be thinking only of that similarly shaped instrumen
Allan,
Good idea, but may I make a suggestion to ease your progress. Why don't you
email a listing of the sites you already have, and do so periodically as you
get mail and set up the site. I'm sure you'll receive lots of duplicate
suggestions and if we know what you already have it might save you
Matt,
> interesting point. What would it be, notwithstanding HIP, that requires
> either thumb in or thumb out?
I humbly suggest that the question is moot. I think thumb in is a misnomer.
Look at the shape of your hand. I prefer to think of it as having the thumb
as a base point. When making quic
OK guys, I'll stick my neck out again.
My favorite book is Moby Dick, probably as I never studied it under a
professor with a "deep understanding" of it. As you all know I'm new to the
lute, and uninstructed (other than reading your messages and Damiano's
Method for the Renaissance Lute as transla
Sal,
Perhaps the writer of the email, or press release, has a bit of a problem.
Or perhaps it is the problem of the TMEA. Or perhaps it is just that the
Choral Competition doesn't have a place for contratenors (not counter). The
contratenor is a rather unique voice, not often written for. A male v
Michael,
Andy has come up with a wonderful quote, and quite relevant to this
discussion (in which I'm a total amateur). But you do raise the point as to
why "our modern scholars" didn't bring this up at the beginning of the
thread.
There I separate from you, you seem to believe there are "scholar
OK guys,
I'm thoroughly confused. Someone said that the "action" is the height of the
string above the fret, others have other definitions. To me the action is a
subjective thing - the pressure needed on the string to make a clean sound.
That can vary on the same instrument with different players
Wayne,
I think there may be a matter of taste involved in the topic, although I
agree with having both caliper and micrometer. Despite having had a career
in the computer business I'm not yet comfortable with digital readouts, or
any electronic device, for measuring in the home or small shop. I ha
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