Re: Good suggestions/questions from an active realxtend builder(s)

[Toni Alatalo]

Peter_Quirk kirjoitti:
> ability to define a color texture on the fly using RGB values or a
> color wheel without having to load a small square texture of the right
> color.
>   

the ogre material system supports this (of course) fully, so should not 
be too difficult .. of course there are many other things in the 
material system too that would be nice to have, i don't know what the 
roadmap / design is with regard to getting there, but am curious to hear.

> -- Peter
>   

~Toni

> On Sep 7, 4:46 pm, "Jani Pirkola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> Anna, could you discuss through the following ideas with Tuomo and see which
>> ones we need/could to add to our product backlog?
>>
>> I think especially the building guidelines doc could be really needed by
>> world builders.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Jani
>>
>> Building side, some things i would like to see/know
>>
>>  -Rex Mesh Tool: able to load and set the centers to many meshes at one
>> time, just like bulk upload option we have in rex. Select all the mesh you
>> need, choose the centers points to set, click and it saves the changes for
>> all. (if i need the x y z axis centers as minimum, minimum, minimum for 50
>> or more objects..and this happened already.. i would like to make it with
>> few clicks and not opening selecting the 3 centers and save-closing the
>> program 50 times!!)
>>
>>  -Boxes/Meshes: We have now "z" key in edit mode making us able to select
>> the mesh clicking on it and not on the box.. can this be setted as default
>> mode for everything? -outside edit mode, left and right click, touch, sit,
>> camera zoom and camera movements, selection square in edit mode etc? And
>> maybe set Z key to switch to "box mode"
>>
>>  -Metal and Glass material (not much to say here, I think they are the most
>> important material to have.. SL had only the metal/shiny material.
>>
>>  -Undo!! That would be a great step!
>>
>>  -Rex tab for objects. IE like windows/second life inventory approach, with
>> folders etc for mesh collision mesh and materials, preview for the materials
>> can be very useful too. The drop down menus we have now are pretty boring.
>>
>>  -Rex tab 2: When a mesh is selected in rex tab, rex select automatically
>> the same mesh for collision.
>>
>>-
>>
>>Function to align the boxes/prims on a certain axis
>>
>>-
>>
>>Building standards: I have no idea of the load time for the different
>>kind of meshes. How much additional materials cost in terms of bandwith, 
>> how
>>much size of texture matters, how much polygon count matters.
>>
>>   Is better to have a mesh with many material that reuse textures
>>   already in the sim or to have a mesh with less materials but
>> having its own
>>   texture to load. What is the optimal poly count for a mesh?
>>
>>   Is better to use one 1024x1024 texture or 2/3 512x512? Is better to
>>   have two meshes with 150 poly each one or one with 300? etc etc.
>>   What is the maximum poly counts suggested for a mesh? If i reuse the
>>   same mesh many times, how does that weight on the bandwith/graphic 
>> engine?
>>   I have absolutely no idea about all this issues and I dont know where
>>   to find answers. Of course I know that the less textures,
>> polygons objects
>>   count I use the better is.. but is not a really a useful information :)
>>   -
>>-
>> 
> >   


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[REX] Re: change MediaUrl with script??

[Toni Alatalo]

stema kirjoitti:
> hi there!
>   

hi,

> first time by editing the "media-url-property" of the texture as
> described in the rex-doc.
> But how can I update the texture? I would like to load another texture
> out of the web. As far as I know, in LSL it was possible by using the
> llParcelMediaQuery-Method.

i added a method for this (iirc in January or so), rexSetMediaURL(url) 
or somesuch. i don't remember now exactly how it was used (by Matteo 
Ligas), may have been something along the lines of a rex py script 
checking a property of the object and setting the url accordingly.

can dig up later in case no one else finds it, now just a quick heads 
upthat it should be there :) .. hm actually tried to dig a bit now but 
sourceforge web svn browsing is so slow for me and don't have a local 
checkout here so failed so far.

~Toni

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[REX] Re: Bots/NPCs

[Toni Alatalo]

Ryan McDougall kirjoitti:
> I dont believe there is any headless client currently, but I myself
> see a LOT of potential use cases for one, so I am working hard to get
> something like that available with Rex.
>   

just for the record, there is/was such a headless client system 
specifically tailored for running bot scripts, called the 'avatar 
process server' (apc). it uses/d a modified version of libsl to work 
with the rex authentication system, and used ironpython hosting to run 
several such bot clients, managed via a simple gui. i worked on it last 
year and Matti ported it to the (then) new avatar/authentication system 
in last February, but I don't know about the current status.

anyway for making your own worlds, for games or machinima or some 
application, it makes a lot more sense to use server side scripting like 
the new rexbot now does. not only does it reduce networking and server 
overhead, but i believe it also enables much more straightforward 
programming of coordinated / group behaviours etc. as the different 
agents can easily share info, know everything about the scene etc.

the 'apc' is/was targeted for a different use case, where you'd want to 
visit any worlds but be able to enable own automated behaviours, 
especially ones integrated to to your own systems at the bot client end 
(a proof of concept of this was a receptionist bot, that would sit on 
any server, and relay chat messages forward using e.g. a corporate sms 
gateway to which the bot server could be connected to, but to which not 
any random region server out there in the world could not talk to).

~Toni
> Cheers,
>
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> Hi,
>>
>> Bots/NPCs can be a powerful way to make your virtual world come alive
>> without any users, as well as a good way to do machinima without
>> needing to be an extreme multitasker or use other people's time.
>>
>> I was wondering whether there was a no-visuals client to run these, or
>> if something like that would be easy to generate. Ideally, it would
>> allow bots to be scripted (sit somewhere, walk from a->b->c->b->a-
>> 
>>> etc) or perhaps even link them up to an external chatbot.
>>>   
>> Thanks,
>> Doeko
>> 
>
> >   


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[REX] Re: Bots/NPCs

[Toni Alatalo]

Hurliman, John kirjoitti:
> Is support for the rex authentication system incompatible with support for 
> the LL auth? I'm wondering why this was kept as a fork instead of a patch for 
> libomv.
>   

depends what you mean with 'incompatible' - the process is quite 
different, as Rex is using separate user/agent servers for 
authentication so that it first gets a token from the user server and 
then passes it on to the sim, unlike the classic LL way where the client 
just sends the login request directly to the server.

i guess it could be special cased in libsl/libomv, meaning it would be a 
mode / option and the login procedure would be selected based on whether 
LL or Rex is used. the reason for not sending such a patch upstream was 
i think just that we did not think there would have been interest for it 
back then, dunno what would be the case now.

in any case i think, and did promote the idea back then too, that having 
a libsl/libomv like library for making clients, 'librex' you could say, 
is a nice asset to have. if it could be merged as an option in the main 
tree upstream, all the better.

> John
>   

~Toni

> -Original Message-
> From: realxtend@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Toni 
> Alatalo
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:50 AM
> To: realxtend@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [REX] Re: Bots/NPCs
>
>
> Ryan McDougall kirjoitti:
>   
>> I dont believe there is any headless client currently, but I myself
>> see a LOT of potential use cases for one, so I am working hard to get
>> something like that available with Rex.
>>   
>> 
>
> just for the record, there is/was such a headless client system 
> specifically tailored for running bot scripts, called the 'avatar 
> process server' (apc). it uses/d a modified version of libsl to work 
> with the rex authentication system, and used ironpython hosting to run 
> several such bot clients, managed via a simple gui. i worked on it last 
> year and Matti ported it to the (then) new avatar/authentication system 
> in last February, but I don't know about the current status.
>
> anyway for making your own worlds, for games or machinima or some 
> application, it makes a lot more sense to use server side scripting like 
> the new rexbot now does. not only does it reduce networking and server 
> overhead, but i believe it also enables much more straightforward 
> programming of coordinated / group behaviours etc. as the different 
> agents can easily share info, know everything about the scene etc.
>
> the 'apc' is/was targeted for a different use case, where you'd want to 
> visit any worlds but be able to enable own automated behaviours, 
> especially ones integrated to to your own systems at the bot client end 
> (a proof of concept of this was a receptionist bot, that would sit on 
> any server, and relay chat messages forward using e.g. a corporate sms 
> gateway to which the bot server could be connected to, but to which not 
> any random region server out there in the world could not talk to).
>
> ~Toni
>   
>> Cheers,
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>   
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Bots/NPCs can be a powerful way to make your virtual world come alive
>>> without any users, as well as a good way to do machinima without
>>> needing to be an extreme multitasker or use other people's time.
>>>
>>> I was wondering whether there was a no-visuals client to run these, or
>>> if something like that would be easy to generate. Ideally, it would
>>> allow bots to be scripted (sit somewhere, walk from a->b->c->b->a-
>>> 
>>>   
>>>> etc) or perhaps even link them up to an external chatbot.
>>>>   
>>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Doeko
>>> 
>>>   
>>>   
>>>   
>
>
>
>
> >   


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[REX] Re: Bots/NPCs

[Toni Alatalo]

On Nov 12, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Jani Pirkola wrote:
> reX authentication works by xmlrpc calls that are completely outside
>  libsl/libomv. As far as I understood, reX has only ever changed libsl
>  due to a few (deprecated) binary packets (media urls & sky box info)

also there was a small change in the login procedure (the response from 
server was modified about a year ago to overcome a NAT issue)

but right, the authentication is separate. so the question is how it 
and starting a session with a rex sim is tied together when using 
libomv. i'll be at the Admino office tomorrow and will go through this 
with someone who knows, to understand whether it could result in a 
sensible patch to libomv.

am thinking that if the rex auth stuff is implemented in some kind of a 
module, it /might/ be nice that libomv could use that for 
authentication when logging into Rex, so it would be transparent for 
some basic bot or other client that uses libomv whether it's logging 
into SL / vanilla OpenSim or Rex. if there is e.g. a parameters file 
for such an application with the address of the target system and login 
credentials, it could support a syntax that differentiated the 
authentication mode, based on which the library could select the 
appropriate procedure.

i guess the other option is that libomv apps that want to support Rex 
would first use the authentication system directly themselves, and then 
pass the information from there to libomv. so the question is whether 
that is seen as good enough, or would hiding the differing procedure 
under the hood of libomv be better. i expect to learn that tomorrow :)

> Jani

~Toni

> 2008/11/11 Hurliman, John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>  We've been running into this a lot recently (supporting protocol 
>> modifications), and it's mostly dependent on how much additional code 
>> has to be supported to achieve compatibility. If the new code path is 
>> a relatively small change, or can be cleanly isolated for the most 
>> part into a new code file it makes things much easier. Either way if 
>> you submit it to the libomv JIRA we can try and get it applied to 
>> trunk.
>>
>>  John
>>
>>  -----Original Message-
>>  From: realxtend@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>> On Behalf Of Toni Alatalo
>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:36 AM
>>  To: realxtend@googlegroups.com
>>  Subject: [REX] Re: Bots/NPCs
>>
>>
>>  Hurliman, John kirjoitti:
>>  > Is support for the rex authentication system incompatible with 
>> support for the LL auth? I'm wondering why this was kept as a fork 
>> instead of a patch for libomv.
>>  >
>>
>>  depends what you mean with 'incompatible' - the process is quite
>>  different, as Rex is using separate user/agent servers for
>>  authentication so that it first gets a token from the user server and
>>  then passes it on to the sim, unlike the classic LL way where the 
>> client
>>  just sends the login request directly to the server.
>>
>>  i guess it could be special cased in libsl/libomv, meaning it would 
>> be a
>>  mode / option and the login procedure would be selected based on 
>> whether
>>  LL or Rex is used. the reason for not sending such a patch upstream 
>> was
>>  i think just that we did not think there would have been interest 
>> for it
>>  back then, dunno what would be the case now.
>>
>>  in any case i think, and did promote the idea back then too, that 
>> having
>>  a libsl/libomv like library for making clients, 'librex' you could 
>> say,
>>  is a nice asset to have. if it could be merged as an option in the 
>> main
>>  tree upstream, all the better.
>>
>>  > John
>>  >
>>
>>  ~Toni
>>
>>  > -Original Message-
>>  > From: realxtend@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Toni Alatalo
>>  > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:50 AM
>>  > To: realxtend@googlegroups.com
>>  > Subject: [REX] Re: Bots/NPCs
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > Ryan McDougall kirjoitti:
>>  >
>>  >> I dont believe there is any headless client currently, but I 
>> myself
>>  >> see a LOT of potential use cases for one, so I am working hard to 
>> get
>>  >> something like that available with Rex.
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >
>>  > just for the record, there is/was such a headless client system
>>  > specifically tailored for running bot scripts, called the 'avatar
>>  > process server' (apc). it uses/d a modified version of libsl

[REX] Re: Rigged Character Models

[Toni Alatalo]

On Dec 6, 2008, at 4:31 PM, Tommi wrote:

> Does realXtend assets contain open source rigged character models I
> could use for MXP demo? Do you know if there exists any such open

at some point the basic avatars also came with the client, but seem to  
be provided as sepate downloads now too:

http://www.realxtend.org/page.php?pg=downloads
realXtend avatar model source files for 3ds Max 2008 (25 Mb) (NEW!)
realXtend avatar model source files in obj format (0.3 Mb) (NEW!)

the bone structure is AFAIK an own custom thing.
i don't know what the content license is actually but would guess that  
something you can use.
you might need max to be able to do the collada conversion (the .obj  
files i figure are just the meshes, not skels as AFAIK obj has no skel  
support).

> source models in the net? Rigged Collada model With H-Anim bone
> structure would be a dream come true.

if you want a flying squirrel (lento-orava), the Frankie in YoFrankie!  
- a create commons game (demo) from the Blender institute, is available  
in http://www.yofrankie.org/?paged=2 (that's an old tech demo, the more  
recently finished full thing is apparently not available for download  
yet, but any day now) .. you'd export the model from Blender using the  
Collada exporter there.

i don't know h-anim from before actually, reading  
http://h-anim.org/Specifications/H-Anim200x/ISO_IEC_FCD_19774/ 
concepts.html#SkeletalHierarchy seems to allow basically any kind of  
structure: "The only requirement of this International Standard for the  
definition of the skeletal hierarchy is that it shall have a  
HumanoidRoot Joint object defined. All of the other Joint objects are  
optional and are not required for a humanoid figure to be H-Anim  
compliant." .. but is it actually their humanoid that you want?  
http://h-anim.org/Specifications/H-Anim200x/ISO_IEC_FCD_19774/ 
concepts.html#StructureOfAHumanoid

also i don't know if a normal collada export of a rig fits in that  
specification otherwise (do they talk about joints there? i'm more used  
to seeing just bone chains..)

> Tommi

~Toni


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[REX] Re: Rigged Character Models

[Toni Alatalo]

On Dec 7, 2008, at 1:40 PM, Tommi wrote:
> mentioned. Are they productions of realXtend team and if so can you
> name any names I could talk to if I have questions about the model

yes, I think Tomi Kujanpää has done the rigging.

> models. Do you know if there are any industry standard skeletons from
> say maya which is widely adopted? Alternatively is it customary in the
> industry that every game and movie has custom bone structures and
> tailored animations and no reuse is done?

i think it is common to not reuse in movies, especially for the main 
characters of an animation, they are certainly custom made for every 
movie. i think in games you'll find more reuse.

afaik there is no standard really, but BVH (biovision hierarchical) is 
the common motion capture format, and (hence) also used in second life. 
iirc the rex anim ppl also imported bvhs for the breakdance thing 
recently, don't know about the details of the pipeline there.

> Tommi

~Toni


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[REX] Re: new bsd-viewer

[Toni Alatalo]

On Dec 16, 2008, at 7:10 PM, Peter Quirk wrote:
> Can you elaborate on the porting problems of Ogre to .NET? I see there

i don't know what probs exactly Jeroen was referring to,

> is a now a Mogre project to replace OgreDotNet. Are there problems
> with Mogre too?

but Mogre has existed for quite a long time (at least 2 years, dunno if 
more) and has worked well for us in game prototyping where have had a 
.net & windows dependency for another reason.

afaik the problem openviewer people had with it was that it's windows 
only, dunno what stops it from running on Mono if that's really the 
case. that's why they worked on ogredotnet instead of mogre, before 
switching away from .net to python-ogre (they use libomv over the 
python.net bridge which allows you to use .net libs from cpython).

the difference is that mogre is managed, whereas ogredotnet is afaik 
not (but the openviewer guys said that using an unmanaged ogre from c# 
is not that bad, i don't have personal experience though).

> Just interested to know as I haven't done any Ogre programming yet but
> was considering doing some in C#.

if you're on windows and like c# & .net Mogre is fine for that, the 
ogre api is nicely exposed there with .net properties etc, using a 
managed version is pleasant and we've had no stability nor other probs 
either. funnily enough our used-to-be c# codebase has turned out to be 
increasinly ironpython during the development once i embedded the 
interpreter first just for quick addition of a debug console, and the 
.net dependency is now gone so we'll probably go to python-ogre 
ourselves. one benefit there is having all the physics libs etc nicely 
wrapped and at hand.

> -- Peter

~Toni

> On Dec 16, 9:06 am, "Jeroen van Veen"  wrote:
>> Good to hear. That will avoid the current c#-porting problem of the
>> ogre-engine(among other libs).
>>
>> 2008/12/16 Ryan McDougall 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Jeroen van Veen 
>>> 
>>> wrote:
 Hi,
>>
 Could you give some more details about the newly planned viewer? 
 What i
 would like to know is:
 * Will the new viewer be based on libomv?
 if not: are there plans for a c++ libomv port?
 if so: then the new viewer will be written in c#?
>>
 thanks,
>>
 Jeroen van Veen
>>
>>> It is expected that the new viewer will be written in C++ with some
>>> python where appropriate. It was decided not to complicate the matter
>>> with 3 languages, so no libomv has been decided against.
>>
>>> We have two alternatives, an existing library in C called
>>> funsl/funomv, and writing our own minimal C++ version.
>>
>>> Cheers,- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> 

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[REX] Re: [sldev] [AWG][OGP] generic client plugin/scripting API

[Toni Alatalo]

On Dec 17, 2008, at 7:48 PM, Lawson English wrote:

I am not on sldev myself, and don't think my reply touches scripting 
nor grids, so removed those 3 groups from the recipients. Feel free to 
forward this as you please, for further talks pyogp list is fine for me 
- but also Realxtend, as it is now preparing for work on the new viewer 
architecture where a generic component system is one of the things to 
be examined.

> Mike Monkowski wrote:
>> Gack!  You lost me with the first word of your title: "generic."  I
>> believe that is a very naive approach.  Unless you are specific about
>> what kind of functionality you want to provide you will quickly get
>> lost.  Can I plug in a new render engine?  Can I add a plugin that
> Well, that's the thing. Why can't it be generic, at least on some 
> level?

I've often voiced the same concern when someone has thought of starting 
to write a 'general system for things', as it easily ends up being 
nothing for anything. However, I don't think that is the case here, 
exactly because we have specific known requirements and furthermore 
multiple existing systems where they have been implemented.

For example, OpenViewer has the renderer as a basically engine 
independent interface, the current w.i.p. implementation being 
ogrerenderer.py . OpenSim has been worked on a lot with modularity in 
mind and the same developers strive to carry it on to viewer projects 
too (Idealist is still very young, interesting to see where it will 
go).

We took a look at the existing bsd licensed / new from scratch, libomv 
using, viewers - a draft doc of that is at 
http://www.playsign.fi/engine/rex/viewerarchs (not posted anywhere yet, 
will probably move to rex or why not opensim wiki - comments welcome, 
may have mistakes even (really is a draft in that sense)). Oh and the 
purpose of that reading is to get more insight to the design problems 
there are, and of the possible solutions architecture wise - not that 
much the apps themselves, but trying to learn lessons there.

> It's true that rendering plugins would be more difficult to make 
> generic
> than, say, IRC plugins, but there are bound to be features applicable 
> to
> any SL-compatible client, or you wouldn't be talking about a SL plugin.

Hm I'm still not sure if I got you correctly there, but yah, exactly 
because there is a somewhat known feature set to start with, and 
performance etc. criteria for many of them etc., I find this may well 
make sense. And, I guess this is what you meant, it's not for just any 
kind of random applications, but for virtual worlds software components 
or something.

There is the point, though, that we are not restricted to the SL 
featureset but e.g. OpenSim is an SDK for many kinds of applications, 
there are components made for Rex that have no counterpart in SL like 
VLC support (oh well that's just a texture plugin kinda, though) and 
Flash cutscene animation playback (no correspondence in SL but well 
just an overlay surface with an animation).

But that only emphasizes your point: it's great if we can get some sort 
of component level interoperability, cross-viewer compatible widgets? 
And of course plugins for additional network protocols etc., chat 
dialogs, some sort of outliner view .. what not.

What kind of feature set are those people actually thinking for the 
client scripting API? Must check that thread again and read more I 
guess.

> Right now, all the existing clients are either based directly on the 
> GPL
> code or are reverse engineered to be compatible with the GPL code at 
> the
> protocol level. What is wrong with trying to keep this compatibiltiy at
> the plugin level by abstracting away differences? That includes

Interesting point.

And I guess that's where we want to head anyway, compatibility of 
components is a worthy goal when the world is diverse anyway. I think 
many here appreciate standards too, but that is another question and 
not for these things anyway (plugin apis - I think standards are more 
in the area of data formats and protocols).

> abstracting the existing GPL code as well since its the least 
> extensible
> and flexible of all the viewers out there.

Reportedly also a reason why different implementations are desirable.. 
can't know first hand but am easily trusting the words of others there.

>>> Imprudence forum that describes a system that is coincidentally close
>>> to what I'd like to see made available in the pyogp viewer. ...

this stuff seems to be in the same area where some of the thinking for 
rexng has gone too, event systems etc.

"""
On the other hand, Sai already had a multi-dispatch model in mind, in 
which multiple plugins could express interest in the same event and get 
notified with appropriate data when the event occurs. We haven't 
covered events at the Viewer API in Imprudence yet, but clearly we will 
need that too. Also, Sai's event dispatcher model has default handlers 
even if no plugin registers interest in an ev

[REX] Re: webinterface for realxtend

[Toni Alatalo]

Jeroen van Veen kirjoitti:
> I've been working some months to make a clean bsd-licensed web 
> interface for 
> OpenSim(http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/wixtd/). Currently 
> it's in alpha-state, and is usable for region-service 
> management(xmlrpc), news stuff, profile management, openlayer mapview 
> through tms-tiler, and can be extended by modules. Anyone maybe 
> interested in joining the project? It basically needs a good 
> theme(smarty templates), a forum module, an installer and some 
> ajax-interaction. I'm a bit tired of writing code all alone :-)

I think they were some students at the Admino office writing some sort 
of management things for the server too, but AFAIK their period on that 
project ended now before christmas. Dunno how similar it was to yours, 
nor where they ended up, but I think they were not aware of your project 
(or perhaps Mikko P. or someone did tell them). I think their UI was not 
a web one but some sort of a GUI app.

Dunno when that area will be addressed in Realxtend dev., but thanks for 
mentioning and hopefully you'll get people from elsewhere sooner .. 
there are a lot of people interested in managing servers etc. among the 
OpenSim dev crowd :)

> Jeroen

~Toni

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[REX] Re: new bsd-viewer

[Toni Alatalo]

daniel miller kirjoitti:
> one thing to keep in mind -- an issue with libomv is it runs on its
> own thread.  Since we're thinking about issues of concurrence,
> parallelism, performance etc (we've been talking on IRC about that,
> should move to rex-arch at some point) -- I'd like to understand how
>   

some copy-paste from irc, as notes for the doc that have been working 
on, are in
http://www.playsign.fi/engine/rex/viewerarchs/index_html#notes .. dunno 
if manage to make something more sensible out of that still before the 
end of the year but will work on some of these issues at least.

hm this now seems to be going to both the general and the arch list, 
dunno what would be good.

> the C++ port of libomv will be dealing with that issue.
>   

good point.

> My preference (and this may be true of C# libomv, I profess I haven't
> looked closely) would be to have an API and documentation that makes
> it very explicit what is going on -- ie, who is starting a thread, and
> what sorts of operations will be happening on that thread.  It would
> also be nice if there were an easy way to fine-tune the thread
> creation process from the application layer.
>   

+1

I also like techniques where code if not tied to a certain specific way 
of execution. Haven't look specifically for this yet now, but recall 
from somewhere that there are systems where you can run same components 
either in a single thread or in multiple -- where that decision has been 
kind of pushed up to a configuration level. I guess Twisted reaches this 
in some way by having the reactors in control, and also mentioned 
Kamaelia to Ryan earlier and he looked into it (I haven't used it 
earlier nor studied yet now). Also in the Intel design / Smoke demo the 
different subsystems just define tasks that the scheduler executes, 
using 1 / thread per processor (but if you have e.g. 4 you can get tasks 
from a single subsystem running in parallel, I don't actually know yet 
how they deal with concurrency there as otherwise the division to 
subsystems and them keeping private copies of data is how they approach 
parallelism).

Anyhow, even simple things help, like not just having a start() call 
that creates a thread and runs in a while loop inside as the only way to 
use a library, but having also calls like poll() in network / ui / event 
libs and renderOneFrame() in Ogre (openviewer uses that).

> Using a thread to watch an I/O stream and notify other parts of the
> application when something occurs is, IMSHO, about the only use of
> threads that I have found to be useful and manageable.  It sort of

I've found that select() does a good job there so that threads are not 
always needed for I/O :) .. but yes there are places where things block, 
like opening a new tcp connection IIRC.

> The heavier use of threads popular today in languages like Java and C#
> (and to some extent in C++) is something entirely different.  It's
> basically multitasking with shared memory.  That leads to all the
> craziness with locks and sempaphores, and all the tangential issues of
> managing multiple asynchronous write access to a shared resource.  In
> effect, you have to build a memory-based database layer, because you
>   

Right. There are cases where this memory sharing for true parallel 
execution is necessary, like in image rendering (e.g. in Blender) it 
makes sense to have a thread / processor and them all having access to 
the same scene data. The geometry for a movie scene is huge, you don't 
want to duplicate that. Also the usage is simple as all threads just 
read the memory and don't modify anything in the scene - just output 
pixels, which is easy to manage 'cause every worker has an own tile so 
nothing is shared where writing is being done. But this is exceptional, 
and I think for a good reason the only place in Blender where threading 
is used (they are right now porting stuff over for the new 2.5 
architecture which has a new event system, also new windowing lib etc. 
basics).

> upshot is that if you have two threads sharing a piece of memory as a
> way of communicating, the latency between one thread writing the data
> and the other thread reading the new value can be up to 100 ms,
> meaning the total back-and-forth message rate between the two threads
> is as low as 5 HZ.
>   

Interesting. I've avoided unnecessary threading for the 1st class of 
reasons you mentioned, loosing determinism and needing to worry about 
data access, and have just heard that it is inefficient too (which of 
course makes sense 'cause there is additional context switching and 
other overhead) - never considered the execution in such detail.

> matter) communicating over sockets or pipes.  What makes this method
> attractive is that when process A sends a message to process B, it is
> in effect notifying the OS that process B should wake up and do
> something.  In most cases, this means that a context switch will
>   

The Intel design is exactly about notification

Re: [Opensim-users] [REX] realxtend viewer for linux

[Toni Alatalo]

Jani Pirkola kirjoitti:
> rexviewer works with opensim, both standalone and grid mode. If you 
> run into bug, please report it to realxtend viewer sourceforge bug 
> tracker.

just to be a bit more exact / hopefully clarify a bit:

it includes the original Linden renderer etc. for SL compatibility - 
that's what you get if connect to a vanilla OpenSim server/grid (or SL). 
Rex mode is enabled -- the Ogre renderer used, meshes supported and the 
Rex authentication & avatar systems used -- only when you connect to a 
Rex server (i.e. either the rexserver or modrex).

making it more granular would need some kind of modular support in a 
viewer (and perhaps something on the server side too, if some general 
'rex mode' flag is still there in modrex, i haven't looked that closely 
now).

> Jani

~Toni

> PS: http://www.cybertechnews.org needs more editors!
>
>
> 2009/1/7 Charles Krinke mailto:c...@pacbell.net>>
>
> Dear Jani:
>
> Does the realXtend viewer connect to a standard OpenSim region in
> either standalone or on a grid?
>
> I had heard previously that it did not, but maybe I was
> misinformed or my data is out of date. Perhaps you could enlighten us?
>
> Charles
>
> 
> *From:* Jani Pirkola mailto:jpirk...@gmail.com>>
> *To:* realxtend@googlegroups.com
> ;
> opensim-us...@lists.berlios.de 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 6, 2009 2:52:51 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-users] [REX] realxtend viewer for linux
>
> Sounds good! I wrote about it to http://www.cybertechnews.org/
>
> It seems that KirstenLee is also making good progress in making a
> cross-platform realXtend viewer; check
> http://openlife.cybertechnews.org
>
> Best regards,
> Jani
>
> 2009/1/6 Jeroen van Veen  >
>
>
> Hi,
>
> A small tutorial for linux users who want to explore
> realxtend(uses wine)
>
> http://opensimulator.org/wiki/RealXtend_Viewer_Linux
>
> >
>
>
> ___
> Opensim-users mailing list
> opensim-us...@lists.berlios.de 
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
> 
>
> ___
> Opensim-users mailing list
> opensim-us...@lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>   


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[REX] Re: Caelum and hydrax integration to current viewer

[Toni Alatalo]

On Feb 4, 2009, at 8:14 AM, Mark Malewski wrote:

> Is anyone familiar with the Newton Dynamics Physics Engine?

I've tested the demos some time last year. Have used Bullet more (easy  
to do quick tests as it's integrated to Blender), which is also a very  
robust one (Bullet is open source, but also used in commercial games  
like Grand Theft Auto 4). Newt seems fun too, and the showcase Newton's  
cradle was certainly fun to see.

Currently, like I guess you know, Opensim and Rex use ODE, which  
basically facilitates many of those use cases you referred to as well.  
There has been efforts to add support for other physics engines in  
Opensim (iirc Bullet among them, or was it  PhysX? (Linden Labs uses  
Havoc)). In SL and vanilla Opensim physics are purely server side, so  
it is not a viewer issue at all. However to not suffer from lag games  
typically, and the Rex viewer as well, do also client side physics.  
Obviously you want the same engine in both client side and on the  
server.

To do stuff now, use the ODE support there is. Recently support for ODE  
joints was added to Opensim, which seems really cool - see the info on  
'ninja physics': http://opensimulator.org/index.php?title=NINJA_Physics  
. With Modrex when Rex server will get to stay up-to-date with current  
Opensim you'll get to use that with Rex too (supposing the Rex physics  
modifications and the client side ODE in Rex don't interfere).

Supporting other engines, like Newton, Bullet, PhysX or something else,  
I guess is open to discussion. Probably it's better to support one  
well, than many poorly. Which one is a harder question, but if ODE is  
not (much) inferior, developing that further makes sense 'cause it's  
what works best now. If it is (much) inferior, switching to 'the best'  
should be considered (my guess would be Bullet, if PhysX licensing is  
not suitable, but haven't studied really). On the server side it is a  
switchable plugin/module, and certainly should be engineered so in the  
new viewer as well, to facilitate switches / different configs in the  
future.

~Toni

>  Would it be possible to incorporate the Newton Dynamics Physics  
> Engine with realXtend/RexViewer?
>  
> There is a cool vehicle demo, and stunt playground including a bowling  
> demo, and "Tech 3DGS" demo (for shooting guns, throwing grenades,  
> blowing things like cars up).
>  
> http://www.newtondynamics.com/downloads.html
> This is a video clip of a vehicle demo using the Newton Dynamics  
> Physics Engine:
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ2bY5rhG6k&feature=related
>  
> Would it be possible to integrate something like this into RexViewer?   
> So we could have moving/driveable vehicles, cars, etc.
>  
> Pool tables, and bowling alleys, as well as GoKart racing, and  
> possibly even design cars that could be driven around in a region?
>  
> This is a Physics demo of a Tank (tracked base vehicle) using Newton:
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_dqMUPeO3w&NR=1
>  
> This is a demo of a Semi Truck (tractor/trailer):
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ2bY5rhG6k&feature=related
>  
>  
> Maybe eventually use this technology from the Physics engine, and  
> maybe we could eventually create something like an interactive "Rig n'  
> Roll" where users could drive trucks in-world similar to something  
> like this: 
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeH5Qq6uhJs&NR=1
>  
> Could something like this be included inside the RexViewer?  It sure  
> would be sweet having vehicles such as cars, tanks, trucks, etc.
>  
> Would it be possible to include a Physics Engine like the newton, so  
> that things similar to "Rig n Roll" could be created in-world so users  
> could drive trucks, and have interactive in-world play.  This is a  
> video clip on how Rig N Roll was created:
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a74568geuFI&NR=1
>  
> It would be sweet to create interactive gaming similar to this inside  
> realXtend/OpenSim:
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDYGpUmJM0Y&feature=related
>  
> This is another good video clip of the truck fueling:
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atUnjLKmQ9M&NR=1
>  
> This is a video clip of the Newton Physics Engine Train Riding Rail  
> Road Demo:
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUkbYGxvHu0&feature=related
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAYPTWqgF5U&NR=1
>  
> This is a video clip of Leadwerks Engine 2.1 & Sandbox Overview:
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmN7OLy6yUY&NR=1
>  
> Leadwerks Engine uses Newton.  If we incorporated Newton Physics  
> Engine into the viewer, would it be possible to create a gaming  
> region, similar to something like Crysis?  Where players could use  
> weapons, and have maps, and play against one another?  Drive vehicles,  
> airplanes, helicopters, trains, etc.
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouOX5XOIls8&feature=related
>  
> Would be interesting to see how RealXtend/Rex Viewer evolves.  My  
> personal favorite features would be the Hydr

[REX] Re: Materials tutorial

[Toni Alatalo]

On Feb 10, 2009, at 7:16 PM, doeko.cass...@gmail.com wrote:

> -How exactly does the multi-pass thing work, what are the names for
> all available effects? (like, add specularity etc)

The Ogre manual has an example of a multi-pass material (the first 
example, even) - http://www.ogre3d.org/docs/manual/manual_14.html

The list of pass usages, like spec or blend, is in 
http://www.ogre3d.org/docs/manual/manual_16.html#SEC38

> -How can you create an object with a basemap+a lightmap, both of
> course on different UV channels (from 3ds max)

I don't know how multiple UVs work. I guess the interweb would tell 
something.

> And so forth... really a comprehensive guide to how to create really
> nice-looking graphics would be SO much appreciated!!

Yah, dunno if there is some tutorial or something somewhere - those 
manual pages have helped us ok so far.

~Toni


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[REX] Re: Materials tutorial

[Toni Alatalo]

On Feb 11, 2009, at 12:39 AM, doeko.cass...@gmail.com wrote:

> I realize there are OGRE tutorials on the matter. My question does not
> relate to the grammar of the material scripts, but to the commands. I

well the other link to the Ogre manual was to the list of 'commands', 
in the sense of what a pass can do in a material (e.g. the different 
blend modes, or it being the specularity, etc).

> The dome structure had a numer of surfaces that had lightmaps applied,
> so someone knows how to do it from the REX team. I've yet to figure it

i don't know if some shaders are used for shadows and lightmaps, would 
guess so. normally with ogre the .material file has the name of the 
shader to use (and the source of that is in another dir), but i don't 
know how it is made to Rex now - wasn't involved in making of that demo 
world.

> would benefit lots of people if we could work out a way to make the
> material system a little easier to understand.

certainly - SachaMange already did a nice effort for documenting the 
demo in the wiki, would be good to expand that with these parts as 
well.

~Toni

> On 10 feb, 22:06, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
>> On Feb 10, 2009, at 7:16 PM, doeko.cass...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> -How exactly does the multi-pass thing work, what are the names for
>>> all available effects? (like, add specularity etc)
>>
>> The Ogre manual has an example of a multi-pass material (the first
>> example, even) -http://www.ogre3d.org/docs/manual/manual_14.html
>>
>> The list of pass usages, like spec or blend, is 
>> inhttp://www.ogre3d.org/docs/manual/manual_16.html#SEC38
>>
>>> -How can you create an object with a basemap+a lightmap, both of
>>> course on different UV channels (from 3ds max)
>>
>> I don't know how multiple UVs work. I guess the interweb would tell
>> something.
>>
>>> And so forth... really a comprehensive guide to how to create really
>>> nice-looking graphics would be SO much appreciated!!
>>
>> Yah, dunno if there is some tutorial or something somewhere - those
>> manual pages have helped us ok so far.
>>
>> ~Toni
> 

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[REX] Re: rexviewer questions

[Toni Alatalo]

On Feb 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, Paul Fishwick wrote:

> I have no access. Blender has an OGRE mesh exporter. However, when
> you say ".bvh files are not supported by rex avatar", I interpret this 
> to
(...)
>  2) to create animations, one must use the ".skeleton" Animation Pack
> .skeleton file contain the keyframes (since .bvh is not used) and is 
> the .skeleton file also used

yes, .skeleton is the Ogre animation format.

the Blender Ogre Meshes and Animation exporter, the normal exporter 
that you probably are using, exports always a .mesh and .material file, 
and when the thing you are exporting is an armature (the Blender name 
for skeleton) with animations (in Blender: actions), a .skeleton too, 
which indeed has the animation data (every frame and not just keyframes 
IIRC, as Ogre does not support constraints etc. similar to movie 
animations so the animations are 'baked' upon export)

bvh is just another format, at least in principle you can import it to 
e.g. Blender to convert to the Ogre format, but you need to have a 
compatible rig then. IIRC the Blender bvh importer actually creates a 
bvh skel for you, but actions are reusable cross rigs so you can use 
the imported ones with any, as long as you have the bone names 
according to the bvh convention.

> for vertex animation?

i don't remember how vertex animation (shape / morph keys) are, perhaps 
in the same file.

> -p

~Toni


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[REX] Re: rexviewer questions

[Toni Alatalo]

On Feb 20, 2009, at 3:56 PM, Paul Fishwick wrote:
> Thanks for these clarifications. In digging deeper, it appears that 
> vertex
> animation may be done via shader reference from within a material

no that's for shaders. vertex animation is probably more similarily to 
skeletal. there is the point though that at least the skel morphing can 
be run on the gpu (and is by default), did you see shader references 
related to that?

well i googled now a sec and the manual says:
"Vertex animation is stored inside the .mesh file since it is tightly 
linked to the vertex structure of the mesh"
http://ogre3d.org/docs/manual/manual_78.html#SEC338

> -p

~Toni

>
> Toni Alatalo wrote:
>> On Feb 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, Paul Fishwick wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I have no access. Blender has an OGRE mesh exporter. However, when
>>> you say ".bvh files are not supported by rex avatar", I interpret 
>>> this
>>> to
>>>
>> (...)
>>
>>>  2) to create animations, one must use the ".skeleton" Animation Pack
>>> .skeleton file contain the keyframes (since .bvh is not used) and is
>>> the .skeleton file also used
>>>
>>
>> yes, .skeleton is the Ogre animation format.
>>
>> the Blender Ogre Meshes and Animation exporter, the normal exporter
>> that you probably are using, exports always a .mesh and .material 
>> file,
>> and when the thing you are exporting is an armature (the Blender name
>> for skeleton) with animations (in Blender: actions), a .skeleton too,
>> which indeed has the animation data (every frame and not just 
>> keyframes
>> IIRC, as Ogre does not support constraints etc. similar to movie
>> animations so the animations are 'baked' upon export)
>>
>> bvh is just another format, at least in principle you can import it to
>> e.g. Blender to convert to the Ogre format, but you need to have a
>> compatible rig then. IIRC the Blender bvh importer actually creates a
>> bvh skel for you, but actions are reusable cross rigs so you can use
>> the imported ones with any, as long as you have the bone names
>> according to the bvh convention.
>>
>>
>>> for vertex animation?
>>>
>>
>> i don't remember how vertex animation (shape / morph keys) are, 
>> perhaps
>> in the same file.
>>
>>
>>> -p
>>>
>>
>> ~Toni
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Paul Fishwick, PhD
> Professor and Director, Digital Arts and Sciences Programs
> University of Florida
> Computer & Information Science and Eng. Dept.
> Bldg. CSE, Room 301
> P.O. Box 116120
> Gainesville, FL 32611
> Email: fishw...@cise.ufl.edu
> Phone: (352) 392-1414
> Fax: (352) 392-1220
> Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>
>
> 

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[REX] Re: rexviewer questions

[Toni Alatalo]

On Feb 20, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Paul Fishwick wrote:

>   tutorial4.material which contains a reference to InflateVP, which
> references shader inflate.cg, which moves vertices (simulating 
> "inflation"):

that sounds like a 'procedural vertex animation', a 'geometry 
shader'(?) or something like that (people often talk of shaders when 
mean just a program running on the gpu) that can inflate any mesh. so a 
function, piece of code, not animation data.

what i was referring to was pre-made animations, that only work with 
the specific mesh that they were made for (e.g. a face turning to 
smile).

~Toni

>   http://artis.imag.fr/~Xavier.Decoret/resources/ogre/tutorial4.html
>> vertex animation is probably more similarily to
>> skeletal. there is the point though that at least the skel morphing 
>> can
>> be run on the gpu (and is by default), did you see shader references
>> related to that?
>>
>> well i googled now a sec and the manual says:
>> "Vertex animation is stored inside the .mesh file since it is tightly
>> linked to the vertex structure of the mesh"
>> http://ogre3d.org/docs/manual/manual_78.html#SEC338
>>
> I'll check this out
>
>
>
>>
>>> -p
>>>
>>
>> ~Toni
>>
>>
>>> Toni Alatalo wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Feb 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, Paul Fishwick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have no access. Blender has an OGRE mesh exporter. However, when
>>>>> you say ".bvh files are not supported by rex avatar", I interpret
>>>>> this
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> (...)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  2) to create animations, one must use the ".skeleton" Animation 
>>>>> Pack
>>>>> .skeleton file contain the keyframes (since .bvh is not used) and 
>>>>> is
>>>>> the .skeleton file also used
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> yes, .skeleton is the Ogre animation format.
>>>>
>>>> the Blender Ogre Meshes and Animation exporter, the normal exporter
>>>> that you probably are using, exports always a .mesh and .material
>>>> file,
>>>> and when the thing you are exporting is an armature (the Blender 
>>>> name
>>>> for skeleton) with animations (in Blender: actions), a .skeleton 
>>>> too,
>>>> which indeed has the animation data (every frame and not just
>>>> keyframes
>>>> IIRC, as Ogre does not support constraints etc. similar to movie
>>>> animations so the animations are 'baked' upon export)
>>>>
>>>> bvh is just another format, at least in principle you can import it 
>>>> to
>>>> e.g. Blender to convert to the Ogre format, but you need to have a
>>>> compatible rig then. IIRC the Blender bvh importer actually creates 
>>>> a
>>>> bvh skel for you, but actions are reusable cross rigs so you can use
>>>> the imported ones with any, as long as you have the bone names
>>>> according to the bvh convention.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> for vertex animation?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> i don't remember how vertex animation (shape / morph keys) are,
>>>> perhaps
>>>> in the same file.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -p
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ~Toni
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Paul Fishwick, PhD
>>> Professor and Director, Digital Arts and Sciences Programs
>>> University of Florida
>>> Computer & Information Science and Eng. Dept.
>>> Bldg. CSE, Room 301
>>> P.O. Box 116120
>>> Gainesville, FL 32611
>>> Email: fishw...@cise.ufl.edu
>>> Phone: (352) 392-1414
>>> Fax: (352) 392-1220
>>> Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Dr. Paul A. Fishwick   E-Mail: fishw...@cise.ufl.edu
> Dept. of Computer & Info   Phone & FAX: (352) 392-1414
>  Science and Engineering   WWW: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
> University of Florida  (PGP Key available at above WWW address)
> P. O. Box 116120
> 332 Bldg. CSE, Gainesville, FL 32611-6120
>
>
> 

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[REX] Re: Material slots

[Toni Alatalo]

doeko.cass...@gmail.com kirjoitti:
> What is the reason for restricting the amount of materials to 12? Can
> this restriction be lifted (to infinite)?
>   

dunno the reason, probably can be lifted.

> For effective content creation, especially more complex and large
> forms of content, I think a higher limit is absolutely essential...
>   

i don't know if you know it already, but in case not, i think gfx works 
so that separate materials are always individual batches, whereas things 
that use the same material (like many parts of the same mesh) can be, 
and in case of ogre when talking of a single mesh are, one batch.

so it's good idea to use UVs and a single image for many parts of a mesh 
to have it more efficient. that's what games have traditionally done.

dunno if you can still actually hit the limit of 12. if you need 
different shading etc. for different parts?

~Toni

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[REX] Re: Material slots

[Toni Alatalo]

doeko.cass...@gmail.com kirjoitti:
> If I understand correctly, basically what you're saying is that 2x +
> 4y + 7z = 3 (not 13), because you can include all the x's in the same

i was not talking about that, but simply having several images in one 
bigger bitmap - what you also mentioned:

> Also, a different case where you need more material slots is when
> importing buildings with photo textures from google sketchup. It is
> technically possible to export it into 3ds max (you need google pro
> for that but OK) and bake all those textures into one unwrapped UV
> map, however this is a bit of hassle and not everyone actually uses
> 3ds max (or similar).
>   

like said this 'hassle' can make a lot of sense for performance reasons 
too. if someone here has no idea what we're talking about, it's just 
this old classic way of making texture images: 
http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/UnrealTexturing.html

so that gives you the possibility to use a basically infinite amount of 
images for different parts of a large, complex mesh (if you make 12 big 
images for the different parts of e.g. a car you can easily have a 1000 
individual images/parts there).

if someone doesn't have access to e.g. 3ds max, Blender also implements 
such image packing, and is free (both as in beer and speech), but yes is 
included in the 'or similar' note of yours not being a part of every SL 
toolset .. but how do you even get meshes if you don't use a modeller? 
if you use ready meshes, i'd expect those to have UV layouts made, so 
you can texture them normally.. perhaps some further tool dev could be 
made to streamline the process.

if you are not talking about being able to use a lot of different 
texture images, but having a lot of parts with different materials in 
other means (like shading params), that's another issue of course.

> Another quick question: Is there a limit on the size of a .mesh file
> you can upload? I have been running into probs with larger files
>   

IIRC there's a limit that has been talked about a couple of times, but i 
don't recall offhand what it is nor where it's documented. sorry, am not 
working for rex now, just happening to reply these Qs when know 
something and have a little time between other things.

> -Jules
>   

~Toni


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[REX] [Fwd: [Opensim-dev] User Authentication]

[Toni Alatalo]

this kinda sounds like trying to achieve what rexauth does, no?

perhaps someone could write how it is w.r.t to that case? i might be 
able, but too tired now and probably busy tomorrow.

also John Hurliman is planning new auth stuff with openid and some 
openid related token thing (i forgot the name) which is basically 'same 
as rexauth but standards instead of Finnish magic', like he said the 
other day :) .. so perhaps he replies his plan there, seems to be online 
at least.

~Toni

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--- Begin Message ---
Hi,

I'm about to start tightening the ropes for the Hypergrid in order to 
make it safer, and also make safer some loose ends of OpenSim without 
HG, and I would appreciate feedback on this.

The first issue that needs to be addressed is the issue of user 
authentication. The regions need to be able to verify that the agent 
that claims to be representing charles.kri...@osgrid.org is, indeed, 
representing charles.kri...@osgrid.org. (As you know, right now this 
is... err... a bit overlooked... *coughs*... and not just in the HG... 
*more coughs*).

Having looked at OpenID, I came to the conclusion that it's not enough 
to know that osgrid.org has a user named "Charles Krinke", and we 
certainly don't want Charles to be constantly typing his password 
everytime he moves; the region needs to know that this user is already 
logged in to the system AND the region also needs to know that the agent 
that is representing this user is a legitimate agent.

OK, so the part about being logged in is easy; the user server already 
knows that, to some approximation.

However, the part about the agent being legitimate is a bit more tricky. 
Here's the bad thing that can happen: Charles logs in to OSgrid, and TPs 
to this intriguing region called "Sports Illuminated Swimming Suite 
Edition". That region happens to be up to no good. It grabs Charles 
current notion of identity (all the current identifiers we use), it 
crashes Charles' viewer so that the user server never knows about it, 
and proceeds to impersonate Charles using all those stolen identifiers; 
for example, it can go back to Charles's regions and erase them 
completely pretending to be Charles.

So, what can we do to detect the legitimacy of agents?

Having scratched my head over this, I came to the conclusion that the 
most promising element that can be used to identify agents is the 
Viewer's EndPoint. This is what happens down in the LLUDPServer (I'm 
sure something similar happens in other viewers' packet handlers):

if (packet != null)
{
if (packet.Type == PacketType.UseCircuitCode)
AddNewClient((UseCircuitCodePacket)packet, epSender, 
epProxy); 
else
ProcessInPacket(packet, epSender);
}

The EndPoint epSender comes directly from the socket and I'm assuming it 
can't be faked, at least the IP part. Is this correct? This is a 
critical assumption.

So, back to the "Sports Illuminated" scenario: that sim would then try 
to launch an agent at Charles' region. It can fake everything except 
being Charles' viewer machine. When Charles' region does that code 
above, it asks the User server for authentication of an agent with all 
those identifiers and the given EndPoint, and the User server tells back 
that Charles wasn't using that EndPoint to start with, so the 
authentication fails, and an alarm is rang.

Thoughts?

Crista

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert in security, I'm just using my brain in 
context.


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[REX] Re: presenting at a web3D meeting

[Toni Alatalo]

daniel miller kirjoitti:
> sorry for the cross-post, but this is something I think all parties
>   
yah wasn't sure where to reply, but doesn't matter too much i guess :o
> should be aware of.  I have been asked to give a short presentation
> plus Q&A on Opensim, Openviewer, and RealXtend (focus on Next Gen
>   

sounds great!

> plans).  This is at a meeting of the Web3D consortium, the folks
> behind X3D (and now Collada).  Here's a link to the meeting
>   
oh, so Collada moved from Chronos (where opengl still is, right?) to there?

interesting.

btw there is Collada export from Verse (was a sponsored request by 
certain 'collada guys' couple of years ago, Eskil made it and they 
talked about future stuff too), and Verse support in Cable Beach AFAIK 
(once it comes out with VerseSharp, right? and is using Axiom (a c# port 
of ogre) on the server side to read the .mesh data? JHurliman worked on 
that some weeks ago, 
http://opensimulator.org/wiki/AssetServerProposal/Verse)

~Toni
> announcement:
>
> http://www.web3d.org/events/details/web3d-consortium-members-meeting/
>
> My talk is on the "Emerging Web3D Applications".
>
> I think it's import to have dialogue among the disparate people
> working towards a 3D-enabled web.  The goals and motivations may be
> different, but it's all going to intersect at some point.  I would
> hate to see a tower of babel situation such as transpired in the
> audio/video world.
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> -danx0r
>
> >   


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[realXtend] [Fwd: Re: [Bf-committers] Khronos + Mozilla: 3D on the web]

[Toni Alatalo]

fyi Ton Roosendaal's view to the Khronos + Mozilla / 3d web initiative, 
sounds sensible to me now at first read anyways, and i guess well 
aligned with Rex goals too. Ton is the sole original creator of Blender 
and the head of Blender Foundation and running the Institute (with 
actual dev and movie & game projects) nowadays too.

am posting to the users list instead of -dev where put the earlier note 
about that to perhaps get artist / authors views, and as this is not a 
(current) development issue really.

~Toni

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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Toni,

My main target would be to move this iniative to be less coder-centric, 
and more artist-centric. Only a javascript binding to opengl is just 
dumb, and doesn't help people much. What would be far more interesting 
is a standard mini-engine, with extension possibilities.

- Full Collada support for scene graph, model & animation descriptions
- Bullet physics support (Collada supports physics well)
- Extension api for javascript based drawing and logic

And this we can align well with our tools, and a BGE 'emulation mode' 
or so to be able to prototype and test 3D content for the web. With as 
a target that artists should be able to make content without coder 
involvement.

-Ton-


Ton Roosendaal  Blender Foundation   t...@blender.orgwww.blender.org
Blender Institute BV  Entrepotdok 57A  1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands

On 29 Mar, 2009, at 22:21, Toni Alatalo wrote:

> Ton Roosendaal kirjoitti:
>> Quite a nice initiative right? So, we should ensure Blender gets
>> involved. :)
>>
>
> It is interesting indeed - it is finally about time for browsers to get
> access to hardware accelerated 3d (so far people have resorted to even
> writing 3d engines that run on cpu in flash, and even with javascript
> without flash to draw some polygons :) .. only exception being java 
> apps
> that have been able to use opengl for a long time, so there are
> succesfull mmorpgs etc written in it)
>
> Do you something specific in mind what this might mean for Blender? I
> don't suppose you're thinking of targetting a Blender 3 rewrite in 2011
> in javascript so that the whole app would run in a web browser :p
>
>> Who here on the list would be interested to represent Blender for this
>> initiative? I guess it's mostly mailing lists, tele-conferences, but
>> also face-to-face meetings.
>>
>
> I'm working pretty much full time with '3d web' stuff now but from a 
> bit
> different angle, working with http://www.realxtend.org/ (where our
> company is now joining as a partner too) in collaboration with
> http://www.opensimulator.org/ .. that's why was also interested in that
> Khronos + Mozilla / opengl-es + javascript in browser initiative, as we
> are now writing a 'virtual worlds browser' (/'generic game client'?),
> using ogre and core in c++, and I'm responsible for the client side
> scripting work (similar to how javascript is in browsers, and how
> perhaps that new 3d stuff will be exposed there too, so will be
> following that).
>
> Am nowhere near SF, and like said have to look at the devs from that 
> bit
> different angle too, so perhaps there is someone else who can represent
> BF better. I'll be thinking of Blender too of course, and hope we'll 
> get
> to use it together nicely with the upcoming realxtend toolset as well.
>
>> -Ton-
>>
>
> ~Toni
>
> ___
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> bf-committ...@blender.org
> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>

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[realXtend] Re: how to receive data from outside world

[Toni Alatalo]

zeshu wrote:
> I have some data on a php web page.Now i need that data in realXtend.i
> checked two methods in LSL one is httprequest and XML-RPC.How i can
> use these functions in Python.
>   

are they exposed in the rexscript system? basically it always calls the 
opensim scripting api,
i.e. is same as the lsl impls.

i think you can also use any .net library that your system has installed 
on your server,
similarily to how use in it c# but just within ironpython (which 
rexscript uses).

~Toni

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[realXtend] Re: how to receive data from outside world

[Toni Alatalo]

Jani Pirkola wrote:
> isn't it possible to send http get requests from python directly? Or 
> at least open tcp socket and write the get request there? What do I 
> need to do to enable needed libraries, ie does python in rex work as 
> it was any python environment?

the python standard library is included.

but it is ironpython,
which means you can't use c written python modules,
(though there is a project called ironclad to allow that,
some sort of wrapper i guess)

but you can use any .net libs normally,
and i guess within opensim the sensible thing to do is
the same that you would do in a region mod using c#,
just in python

though i think just using the standard python urllib for it would work too,
if/as ironpython has implemented all the base types (like socket) so 
that it works
(they would have done that using the .net things for opening network 
connections etc i guess,
or some existing http impl)

there is some http lib in opensim, right?

> Jani

~Toni

> 2009/4/8 Toni Alatalo mailto:ant...@kyperjokki.fi>>
>
>
> zeshu wrote:
> > I have some data on a php web page.Now i need that data in
> realXtend.i
> > checked two methods in LSL one is httprequest and XML-RPC.How i can
> > use these functions in Python.
> >
>
> are they exposed in the rexscript system? basically it always
> calls the
> opensim scripting api,
> i.e. is same as the lsl impls.
>
> i think you can also use any .net library that your system has
> installed
> on your server,
> similarily to how use in it c# but just within ironpython (which
> rexscript uses).
>
> ~Toni
>
>
>
>
> >


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[realXtend] Re: how to receive data from outside world

[Toni Alatalo]

Jeroen van Veen wrote:
> if other python libs can be imported, maybe it can be done with pycurl?
>   

basics are also in the stdlib, http://docs.python.org/library/urllib.html

filehandle = urllib.urlopen(some_url, proxies=proxies)

i guess the way to use curl within .net (which the server, being 
opensim, is) would be via some .net wrapper, dunno, if you needed that 
for some reason.

and like said in the other post, it may be also a good idea to do what 
opensim does on the c# side, what you would do in an opensim region 
module perhaps (of course rexscript can also expose it by wrapping 
something itself, or using what is exposed for LSL (which are what 
rexscript usually uses)).

> Jeroen
>   

~Toni

> On Wednesday 08 April 2009 18:55:13 Jani Pirkola wrote:
>   
>> Toni,
>> isn't it possible to send http get requests from python directly? Or at
>> least open tcp socket and write the get request there? What do I need to do
>> to enable needed libraries, ie does python in rex work as it was any python
>> environment?
>>
>> Jani
>>
>> 2009/4/8 Toni Alatalo 
>>
>> 
>>> zeshu wrote:
>>>   
>>>> I have some data on a php web page.Now i need that data in realXtend.i
>>>> checked two methods in LSL one is httprequest and XML-RPC.How i can
>>>> use these functions in Python.
>>>> 
>>> are they exposed in the rexscript system? basically it always calls the
>>> opensim scripting api,
>>> i.e. is same as the lsl impls.
>>>
>>> i think you can also use any .net library that your system has installed
>>> on your server,
>>> similarily to how use in it c# but just within ironpython (which
>>> rexscript uses).
>>>
>>> ~Toni
>>>   
>> 
>
> >   


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[realXtend] Re: how to receive data from outside world

[Toni Alatalo]

Toni Alatalo wrote:
> though i think just using the standard python urllib for it would work too,
> if/as ironpython has implemented all the base types (like socket) so 
>   
seems that FePy project was helping with that back then,

---from: 
http://lists.ironpython.com/pipermail/users-ironpython.com/2007-May/004943.html


  [IronPython] urllib.urlopen(url).read() problem

The simplest solution is to use FEPY_OPTIONS=network, which lets IPCE
to use FePy's version of socket, select, and ssl module. More here:

http://fepy.sourceforge.net/doc/fepy-options.html
---

note that is from 2007, i don't know how it is now, we've usually used 
the .net libs within .net even when using ironpython). within cpython 
have been happy with urllib for many things.

>> Jani
>> 
>
> ~Toni
>   

same.

>> 2009/4/8 Toni Alatalo mailto:ant...@kyperjokki.fi>>
>>
>>
>> zeshu wrote:
>> > I have some data on a php web page.Now i need that data in
>> realXtend.i
>> > checked two methods in LSL one is httprequest and XML-RPC.How i can
>> > use these functions in Python.
>> >
>>
>> are they exposed in the rexscript system? basically it always
>> calls the
>> opensim scripting api,
>> i.e. is same as the lsl impls.
>>
>> i think you can also use any .net library that your system has
>> installed
>> on your server,
>> similarily to how use in it c# but just within ironpython (which
>> rexscript uses).
>>
>> ~Toni
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>
>
> >   


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[realXtend] Re: how to receive data from outside world

[Toni Alatalo]

yuzo wrote:
> From my limited understanding, the Iron Python scripts for REX live on
> the server. The LSL scripts seem to me something you construct in an
> editor on the viewer.
>   

both are on the server, and executed on the server.

in opensim using the same scriptengine i think, am actually not 100% 
sure of the details there now.

true, there is the difference that rexscripts you edit on the server, 
whereas lsl you can edit via the viewer. but that just a UI and a 
storage difference in the end, does not make a difference with regard to 
the execution, which is essentially similarily within an opensim plugin 
(and iirc using the same scriptengine).

a major difference is that the rexscript ones can pretty much do 
anything, are like opensim region modules too in that sense, can access 
the system etc. like in any .net code i think. that's because it's full 
ironpython also, which can do anything c# can. so only for region owners 
in that sense i guess. Adam has been now working on the mini region 
module (MRM) system for Opensim and looking into sandboxing execution 
contexts with the .net tools (the one he was thinking of is not 
supported in Mono).

afaik the lsl ones are converted to c# source and compiled, haven't 
looked at that part of scriptengine now. security i guess comes just 
from the fact that, err, only valid lsl is parsed and it can't do stuff 
like import .net modules? dunno.

> Does it make a difference if a script written in LSL by my avatar's
> viewer gets information from a data source and uses it, or if I do
> something similar as an Iron Python script? It just feels like the
> Iron Python script would be accessible globally and I would assume
> that scripts are local to the avatar associated with its creation. Of
> course my understanding may be completely off.
>   

there is no association from a rexscript module or class to avatars or 
any other objects.

basically any object can use any such script, i.e. be declared to be an 
instance of that class. of course just the object owner can change the 
property that which script is used for the object.

> Yuzo
>   

~Toni

> On Apr 8, 12:58 pm, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
>   
>> Jeroen van Veen wrote:
>> 
>>> if other python libs can be imported, maybe it can be done with pycurl?
>>>   
>> basics are also in the stdlib,http://docs.python.org/library/urllib.html
>>
>> filehandle = urllib.urlopen(some_url, proxies=proxies)
>>
>> i guess the way to use curl within .net (which the server, being
>> opensim, is) would be via some .net wrapper, dunno, if you needed that
>> for some reason.
>>
>> and like said in the other post, it may be also a good idea to do what
>> opensim does on the c# side, what you would do in an opensim region
>> module perhaps (of course rexscript can also expose it by wrapping
>> something itself, or using what is exposed for LSL (which are what
>> rexscript usually uses)).
>>
>> 
>>> Jeroen
>>>   
>> ~Toni
>>
>> 
>>> On Wednesday 08 April 2009 18:55:13 Jani Pirkola wrote:
>>>   
>>>> Toni,
>>>> isn't it possible to send http get requests from python directly? Or at
>>>> least open tcp socket and write the get request there? What do I need to do
>>>> to enable needed libraries, ie does python in rex work as it was any python
>>>> environment?
>>>> 
>>>> Jani
>>>> 
>>>> 2009/4/8 Toni Alatalo 
>>>> 
>>>>> zeshu wrote:
>>>>>   
>>>>>> I have some data on a php web page.Now i need that data in realXtend.i
>>>>>> checked two methods in LSL one is httprequest and XML-RPC.How i can
>>>>>> use these functions in Python.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> are they exposed in the rexscript system? basically it always calls the
>>>>> opensim scripting api,
>>>>> i.e. is same as the lsl impls.
>>>>>   
>>>>> i think you can also use any .net library that your system has installed
>>>>> on your server,
>>>>> similarily to how use in it c# but just within ironpython (which
>>>>> rexscript uses).
>>>>>   
>>>>> ~Toni
>>>>>   
>
> >   


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[realXtend] Re: biosensors / 'emotion input' ([Fwd: [ STEIM ] st...@40! presents lectures on Eyesweb and Bio sensors])

[Toni Alatalo]

Paul Fishwick kirjoitti:
> Nice article -- has anyone tried using something like this in 
> conjunction with
> the realxtend viewer? Some combination of LSL's http_response or xmlrpc
> might do the trick (with some lag). Thoughts?

well there are all sorts of plans and some upcoming work soon too on 
plugging in external input,

but how do you see http or xmlrpc doing it with the viewer? i'd think 
there is an api for local avatar control and other user input ops, and 
the viewer then takes care of synching the data to the server etc.. so 
you can write an add-on or something  for the viewer that gets the input 
in  however they do that normally.

or were you thinking of the server requesting the data from a separate 
server somewhere? i guess so as you refer to lag, yah i guess you 
certainly can do that (similar to how x10 was done perhaps).

> -p

~Toni
>
>
> On Apr 8, 2009, at 7:53 AM, Toni Alatalo wrote:
>
>> with the recent talks about motion / gesture input, was fun to see that
>> on the music side (where have used motion for long, accelometers for ~20
>> years iirc) are now using 'biosensors' too :)
>>
>> i recall from some VW / teleconferencing talks that reflecting emotional
>> states is of interest for some .. weird to think how it could be used in
>> games, i guess it's good that they are experimenting with it in art
>> music before..
>>
>> ~Toni
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *STEIM 
>> *Date: *April 7, 2009 11:49:40 AM EDT
>> *To: *
>> *Subject: **[ STEIM ] st...@40! presents lectures on Eyesweb and Bio 
>> sensors*
>> *Reply-To: *kn...@steim.nl
>>
>>
>> st...@40! presents lectures on Eyesweb and Bio sensors
>>
>>
>> With the presence of Atau Tanaka as artistic director in 2007, STEIM 
>> was introduced to bio sensors in a performative environment. Ben 
>> Knapp worked with STEIM on the revised version of Dick Raaijmakers' 
>> Grafische Methode Fiets, utilizing Infusion Systems' BioBeat sensor, 
>> which is also used in Tanaka's BioMuse instrument. Together with Nick 
>> Gillian, Ben will talk about the SARC Eyesweb toolkit in STEIM's 
>> Lecture Series. Adinda van 't Klooster has been working on her 
>> projects at STEIM regularly, and she will present her current work, 
>> Emotion Lights, which uses bio sensors to track the visitor's 
>> emotional state. 
>>  
>> /Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009
>> Venue: STEIM, Utrechtsedwarsstraat 134, Amsterdam
>> Time: 20.00hrs.
>> Entrance: FREE
>> Reservations and more information: kn...@steim.nl or 020-6228690
>> /
>>
>>
>> Ben Knapp & Nick Gillian
>> Controlling Music and Sound Using the Recognition of Physical 
>> Gestures and Emotional State
>>
>> This talk will first explore the broad area of using kinematic 
>> (motion) and physiological sensors (motion and emotion) for 
>> interacting with sound.  Then, the details of the measurement and 
>> recognition of these signals and the patterns within them during 
>> performance will be discussed.  The talk will focus on three areas:
>> 1) Understanding Gestures and Emotion
>> 2) Simple Pattern Recognition Techniques
>> 3) The SARC Eyesweb Toolkit
>>
>> www.sarc.qub.ac.uk
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> Adinda van 't Klooster / Artist talk: Emotion Lights
>>
>> Adinda van 't Klooster is a UK based artist who has worked with a 
>> wide range of media such as video and sound installation, animation, 
>> sculpture, and computer generated performance. In her work she 
>> creates a multi-sensory experience and explores the areas where art & 
>> science overlap. In her AHRC funded doctoral research with CRUMB at 
>> the University of Sunderland she is exploring the creation of new 
>> tactile interfaces using biofeedback. At STEIM she is collaborating 
>> with programmer Vincent Akkermans to create a first prototype of the 
>> Emotion Lights project.
>>
>> Vincent Akkermans is a Dutch music technologist specialising in 
>> system architecture for adaptive representation of media. Throughout 
>> his MA at the Utrecht School of Arts he has focused on algorithmic 
>> composition and adaptive music systems for videogames. He recently 
>> finished a research internship focusing on methods for music 
>> information retrieval at the Music Technology Group in Barcelona.
>>
>> The Emotion Light will be a light emitting sculpture, with sensors 
>> embedded in its handlebars. The holder’s heart rate and GSR (galvanic 
>> skin response) will be t

[realXtend] Re: how to receive data from outside world

[Toni Alatalo]

Jani Pirkola kirjoitti:
> There is an example of two-way http communication, it is used in the 
> x10 example:
> http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/How_to_Connect_Home_Automation_-_X10

interestingly enough that seems to use both some .net http lib (the one 
included with opensim? or from .net libs?) and urllib, i guess 
httpserver for listening to commands from outside, and python stdlib 
urllib for sending own commands

http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/modrex/scmsvn/?action=browse&path=%2Ftrunk%2FModularRex%2FRexParts%2FRexPython%2FResources%2FPythonScript%2FRXCore%2FrxX10.py&revision=52&view=markup&pathrev=79
from BaseHTTPServer import BaseHTTPRequestHandler, HTTPServer
import urllib

#listening, i think
X10Connection.httpServerThread = X10StateListenerThread()

#sending
url = 'http://' + X10Connection.X10ManagerAddress + 
'/X10/command?address=' + device + '&function=' + command
try:
sock = urllib.urlopen(url)
reponseBody = sock.read()

perhaps a bit strange to use different libs for the different directions 
in the same module, but at least it shows that both ways work :p

> Jani

~Toni

> 2009/4/9 Toni Alatalo mailto:ant...@kyperjokki.fi>>
>
>
> yuzo wrote:
> > From my limited understanding, the Iron Python scripts for REX
> live on
> > the server. The LSL scripts seem to me something you construct in an
> > editor on the viewer.
> >
>
> both are on the server, and executed on the server.
>
> in opensim using the same scriptengine i think, am actually not 100%
> sure of the details there now.
>
> true, there is the difference that rexscripts you edit on the server,
> whereas lsl you can edit via the viewer. but that just a UI and a
> storage difference in the end, does not make a difference with
> regard to
> the execution, which is essentially similarily within an opensim
> plugin
> (and iirc using the same scriptengine).
>
> a major difference is that the rexscript ones can pretty much do
> anything, are like opensim region modules too in that sense, can
> access
> the system etc. like in any .net code i think. that's because it's
> full
> ironpython also, which can do anything c# can. so only for region
> owners
> in that sense i guess. Adam has been now working on the mini region
> module (MRM) system for Opensim and looking into sandboxing execution
> contexts with the .net tools (the one he was thinking of is not
> supported in Mono).
>
> afaik the lsl ones are converted to c# source and compiled, haven't
> looked at that part of scriptengine now. security i guess comes just
> from the fact that, err, only valid lsl is parsed and it can't do
> stuff
> like import .net modules? dunno.
>
> > Does it make a difference if a script written in LSL by my avatar's
> > viewer gets information from a data source and uses it, or if I do
> > something similar as an Iron Python script? It just feels like the
> > Iron Python script would be accessible globally and I would assume
> > that scripts are local to the avatar associated with its
> creation. Of
> > course my understanding may be completely off.
> >
>
> there is no association from a rexscript module or class to avatars or
> any other objects.
>
> basically any object can use any such script, i.e. be declared to
> be an
> instance of that class. of course just the object owner can change the
> property that which script is used for the object.
>
> > Yuzo
> >
>
> ~Toni
>
> > On Apr 8, 12:58 pm, Toni Alatalo  <mailto:ant...@kyperjokki.fi>> wrote:
> >
> >> Jeroen van Veen wrote:
> >>
> >>> if other python libs can be imported, maybe it can be done
> with pycurl?
> >>>
> >> basics are also in the
> stdlib,http://docs.python.org/library/urllib.html
> >>
> >> filehandle = urllib.urlopen(some_url, proxies=proxies)
> >>
> >> i guess the way to use curl within .net (which the server, being
> >> opensim, is) would be via some .net wrapper, dunno, if you
> needed that
> >> for some reason.
> >>
> >> and like said in the other post, it may be also a good idea to
> do what
> >> opensim does on the c# side, what you would do in an opensim region
> >> module perhaps (of course rexscript can also expose it by wrapping
> >> something itself, or using what is exposed 

[realXtend] Re: how to receive data from outside world

[Toni Alatalo]

zeshu kirjoitti:
> let me change my question a little bit.how we can integrate LSL
> scripts with python scripts?for example.
> I am able to get data using LSL script(Httprequest/httpresponse) from
> outside world.Now i want to use this data in python.So how i can pass
>   

you can either use the .net or python stdlib http request funcs like the 
x10 thing does, or use the lsl command if the rexscript api exposes it 
(see py filex in rxcore, they largely just call the lsl impls from opensim).

sorry must go now so no time to dig the source / doc to make an example.

~Toni

> this data to python.Because i want to move the avatar using this
> data.So this data is very important for me.
>
> On Apr 9, 9:51 am, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
>   
>> Jani Pirkola kirjoitti:
>>
>> 
>>> There is an example of two-way http communication, it is used in the
>>> x10 example:
>>> http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/How_to_Connect_Home_Automation_-_X10
>>>   
>> interestingly enough that seems to use both some .net http lib (the one
>> included with opensim? or from .net libs?) and urllib, i guess
>> httpserver for listening to commands from outside, and python stdlib
>> urllib for sending own commands
>>
>> http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/modrex/scmsvn/?action=brows...
>> from BaseHTTPServer import BaseHTTPRequestHandler, HTTPServer
>> import urllib
>>
>> #listening, i think
>> X10Connection.httpServerThread = X10StateListenerThread()
>>
>> #sending
>> url = 'http://' + X10Connection.X10ManagerAddress +
>> '/X10/command?address=' + device + '&function=' + command
>> try:
>> sock = urllib.urlopen(url)
>> reponseBody = sock.read()
>>
>> perhaps a bit strange to use different libs for the different directions
>> in the same module, but at least it shows that both ways work :p
>>
>> 
>>> Jani
>>>   
>> ~Toni
>>
>> 
>>> 2009/4/9 Toni Alatalo mailto:ant...@kyperjokki.fi>>
>>>   
>>> yuzo wrote:
>>> > From my limited understanding, the Iron Python scripts for REX
>>> live on
>>> > the server. The LSL scripts seem to me something you construct in an
>>> > editor on the viewer.
>>>   
>>> both are on the server, and executed on the server.
>>>   
>>> in opensim using the same scriptengine i think, am actually not 100%
>>> sure of the details there now.
>>>   
>>> true, there is the difference that rexscripts you edit on the server,
>>> whereas lsl you can edit via the viewer. but that just a UI and a
>>> storage difference in the end, does not make a difference with
>>> regard to
>>> the execution, which is essentially similarily within an opensim
>>> plugin
>>> (and iirc using the same scriptengine).
>>>   
>>> a major difference is that the rexscript ones can pretty much do
>>> anything, are like opensim region modules too in that sense, can
>>> access
>>> the system etc. like in any .net code i think. that's because it's
>>> full
>>> ironpython also, which can do anything c# can. so only for region
>>> owners
>>> in that sense i guess. Adam has been now working on the mini region
>>> module (MRM) system for Opensim and looking into sandboxing execution
>>> contexts with the .net tools (the one he was thinking of is not
>>> supported in Mono).
>>>   
>>> afaik the lsl ones are converted to c# source and compiled, haven't
>>> looked at that part of scriptengine now. security i guess comes just
>>> from the fact that, err, only valid lsl is parsed and it can't do
>>> stuff
>>> like import .net modules? dunno.
>>>   
>>> > Does it make a difference if a script written in LSL by my avatar's
>>> > viewer gets information from a data source and uses it, or if I do
>>> > something similar as an Iron Python script? It just feels like the
>>> > Iron Python script would be accessible globally and I would assume
>>> > that scripts are local to the avatar associated with its
>>> creation. Of
>>> > course my understanding may be completely off.
>>>   
>>> there is no association from a rexscript module or class to avatars or
>>> any other objec

[realXtend] Re: biosensors / 'emotion input' ([Fwd: [ STEIM ] st...@40! presents lectures on Eyesweb and Bio sensors])

[Toni Alatalo]

ATupper kirjoitti:
> It almost might be worth exploring the possibility of making the
> expression data stream a separate service, much like voice chat is now
> on SL.
>   

I had the same thought - when we were discussing the feasibility of a 
multi-process plugin framework for the new viewer (on the -dev list an 
irc channel), these kind of input things came to mind as one case where 
a separate process might make sense. So far nothing has been implemented 
in that direction, apart from the ng communications module (IM) using 
telepathy with dbus.

~Toni

> On Apr 8, 7:04 pm, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
>   
>> Paul Fishwick kirjoitti:
>>
>> 
>>> Nice article -- has anyone tried using something like this in
>>> conjunction with
>>> the realxtend viewer? Some combination of LSL's http_response or xmlrpc
>>> might do the trick (with some lag). Thoughts?
>>>   
>> well there are all sorts of plans and some upcoming work soon too on
>> plugging in external input,
>>
>> but how do you see http or xmlrpc doing it with the viewer? i'd think
>> there is an api for local avatar control and other user input ops, and
>> the viewer then takes care of synching the data to the server etc.. so
>> you can write an add-on or something  for the viewer that gets the input
>> in  however they do that normally.
>>
>> or were you thinking of the server requesting the data from a separate
>> server somewhere? i guess so as you refer to lag, yah i guess you
>> certainly can do that (similar to how x10 was done perhaps).
>>
>> 
>>> -p
>>>   
>> ~Toni
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>> On Apr 8, 2009, at 7:53 AM, Toni Alatalo wrote:
>>>   
>>>> with the recent talks about motion / gesture input, was fun to see that
>>>> on the music side (where have used motion for long, accelometers for ~20
>>>> years iirc) are now using 'biosensors' too :)
>>>> 
>>>> i recall from some VW / teleconferencing talks that reflecting emotional
>>>> states is of interest for some .. weird to think how it could be used in
>>>> games, i guess it's good that they are experimenting with it in art
>>>> music before..
>>>> 
>>>> ~Toni
>>>> 
>>>> *From: *STEIM 
>>>> *Date: *April 7, 2009 11:49:40 AM EDT
>>>> *To: *
>>>> *Subject: **[ STEIM ] st...@40! presents lectures on Eyesweb and Bio
>>>> sensors*
>>>> *Reply-To: *kn...@steim.nl
>>>> 
>>>> st...@40! presents lectures on Eyesweb and Bio sensors
>>>> 
>>>> With the presence of Atau Tanaka as artistic director in 2007, STEIM
>>>> was introduced to bio sensors in a performative environment. Ben
>>>> Knapp worked with STEIM on the revised version of Dick Raaijmakers'
>>>> Grafische Methode Fiets, utilizing Infusion Systems' BioBeat sensor,
>>>> which is also used in Tanaka's BioMuse instrument. Together with Nick
>>>> Gillian, Ben will talk about the SARC Eyesweb toolkit in STEIM's
>>>> Lecture Series. Adinda van 't Klooster has been working on her
>>>> projects at STEIM regularly, and she will present her current work,
>>>> Emotion Lights, which uses bio sensors to track the visitor's
>>>> emotional state.
>>>> 
>>>> /Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009
>>>> Venue: STEIM, Utrechtsedwarsstraat 134, Amsterdam
>>>> Time: 20.00hrs.
>>>> Entrance: FREE
>>>> Reservations and more information: kn...@steim.nl or 020-6228690
>>>> /
>>>> 
>>>> Ben Knapp & Nick Gillian
>>>> Controlling Music and Sound Using the Recognition of Physical
>>>> Gestures and Emotional State
>>>> 
>>>> This talk will first explore the broad area of using kinematic
>>>> (motion) and physiological sensors (motion and emotion) for
>>>> interacting with sound.  Then, the details of the measurement and
>>>> recognition of these signals and the patterns within them during
>>>> performance will be discussed.  The talk will focus on three areas:
>>>> 1) Understanding Gestures and Emotion
>>>> 2) Simple Pattern Recognition Techniques
>>>> 3) The SARC Eyesweb Toolkit
>>>> 
>>>> www.sarc.qub.ac.uk
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 

[realXtend] Re: how to receive data from outside world

[Toni Alatalo]

zeshu kirjoitti:
> hi guys,
>   

hi again,

> sock=urllib.request.urlopen(url)
> responseBody=sock.read()
> print(responseBody)
> this code is working in Python 3.0 and giving me the data that i
> need.But when i am trying to use this data in RealXtend it's not
>   

rexscript on the opensim server is ironpython (1.1 iirc), which is 
python 2.* compatible and not 3.0 (3.0 is not recommended for usage in 
general anyways, mostly because most libraries are not ported to it 
yet). ironpython 2.* targets 2.5 compatibility now, i guess we should 
port rexscript to the ironpy 2 series at some point (when modrex is 
first gotten to stable otherwise), as it includes bugfixes etc (dunno 
about how it works on mono though 'cause it uses the new 
Microsoft.Script / Dynamic Languages Runtime (DLR) stuff, i hope well).

use the urllib etc. libraries like in the rx10 example that was posted 
about earlier (and which is included in the server distro afaik).

for such testing it might be helpful for you to run such scripts using 
the same version of ironpython that you have within the server to have 
the exactly same behaviour (the same kind of socket impl etc).

~Toni

> On Apr 9, 12:56 pm, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
>   
>> zeshu kirjoitti:
>>
>> 
>>> let me change my question a little bit.how we can integrate LSL
>>> scripts with python scripts?for example.
>>> I am able to get data using LSL script(Httprequest/httpresponse) from
>>> outside world.Now i want to use this data in python.So how i can pass
>>>   
>> you can either use the .net or python stdlib http request funcs like the
>> x10 thing does, or use the lsl command if the rexscript api exposes it
>> (see py filex in rxcore, they largely just call the lsl impls from opensim).
>>
>> sorry must go now so no time to dig the source / doc to make an example.
>>
>> ~Toni
>>
>> 
>>> this data to python.Because i want to move the avatar using this
>>> data.So this data is very important for me.
>>>   
>>> On Apr 9, 9:51 am, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
>>>   
>>>> Jani Pirkola kirjoitti:
>>>> 
>>>>> There is an example of two-way http communication, it is used in the
>>>>> x10 example:
>>>>> http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/How_to_Connect_Home_Automation_-_X10
>>>>>   
>>>> interestingly enough that seems to use both some .net http lib (the one
>>>> included with opensim? or from .net libs?) and urllib, i guess
>>>> httpserver for listening to commands from outside, and python stdlib
>>>> urllib for sending own commands
>>>> 
>>>> http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/modrex/scmsvn/?action=brows...
>>>> from BaseHTTPServer import BaseHTTPRequestHandler, HTTPServer
>>>> import urllib
>>>> 
>>>> #listening, i think
>>>> X10Connection.httpServerThread = X10StateListenerThread()
>>>> 
>>>> #sending
>>>> url = 'http://' + X10Connection.X10ManagerAddress +
>>>> '/X10/command?address=' + device + '&function=' + command
>>>> try:
>>>> sock = urllib.urlopen(url)
>>>> reponseBody = sock.read()
>>>> 
>>>> perhaps a bit strange to use different libs for the different directions
>>>> in the same module, but at least it shows that both ways work :p
>>>> 
>>>>> Jani
>>>>>   
>>>> ~Toni
>>>> 
>>>>> 2009/4/9 Toni Alatalo mailto:ant...@kyperjokki.fi>>
>>>>>   
>>>>> yuzo wrote:
>>>>> > From my limited understanding, the Iron Python scripts for REX
>>>>> live on
>>>>> > the server. The LSL scripts seem to me something you construct in an
>>>>> > editor on the viewer.
>>>>>   
>>>>> both are on the server, and executed on the server.
>>>>>   
>>>>> in opensim using the same scriptengine i think, am actually not 100%
>>>>> sure of the details there now.
>>>>>   
>>>>> true, there is the difference that rexscripts you edit on the server,
>>>>> whereas lsl you can edit via the viewer. but that just a UI and a
>>>>> storage difference in the end, does not make a difference with
>>>>> regard to
>>>>> the exec

[realXtend] Re: how to receive data from outside world

[Toni Alatalo]

Toni Alatalo kirjoitti:
>> print(responseBody)
>> 
> python 2.* compatible and not 3.0 (3.0 is not recommended for usage in 
>   

oops sorry forgot to mention the 3.0 thing that is in that code, simply 
that in 2.0 there is no builtin print() function but the print statement 
instead (so you just do: print responseBody)

3.0 is not about major changes but fixing some old backwards compat 
breaking things like that.

> ~Toni
>   

same.

>> On Apr 9, 12:56 pm, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
>>   
>> 
>>> zeshu kirjoitti:
>>>
>>> 
>>>   
>>>> let me change my question a little bit.how we can integrate LSL
>>>> scripts with python scripts?for example.
>>>> I am able to get data using LSL script(Httprequest/httpresponse) from
>>>> outside world.Now i want to use this data in python.So how i can pass
>>>>   
>>>> 
>>> you can either use the .net or python stdlib http request funcs like the
>>> x10 thing does, or use the lsl command if the rexscript api exposes it
>>> (see py filex in rxcore, they largely just call the lsl impls from opensim).
>>>
>>> sorry must go now so no time to dig the source / doc to make an example.
>>>
>>> ~Toni
>>>
>>> 
>>>   
>>>> this data to python.Because i want to move the avatar using this
>>>> data.So this data is very important for me.
>>>>   
>>>> On Apr 9, 9:51 am, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
>>>>   
>>>> 
>>>>> Jani Pirkola kirjoitti:
>>>>> 
>>>>>   
>>>>>> There is an example of two-way http communication, it is used in the
>>>>>> x10 example:
>>>>>> http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/How_to_Connect_Home_Automation_-_X10
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> 
>>>>> interestingly enough that seems to use both some .net http lib (the one
>>>>> included with opensim? or from .net libs?) and urllib, i guess
>>>>> httpserver for listening to commands from outside, and python stdlib
>>>>> urllib for sending own commands
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/modrex/scmsvn/?action=brows...
>>>>> from BaseHTTPServer import BaseHTTPRequestHandler, HTTPServer
>>>>> import urllib
>>>>> 
>>>>> #listening, i think
>>>>> X10Connection.httpServerThread = X10StateListenerThread()
>>>>> 
>>>>> #sending
>>>>> url = 'http://' + X10Connection.X10ManagerAddress +
>>>>> '/X10/command?address=' + device + '&function=' + command
>>>>> try:
>>>>> sock = urllib.urlopen(url)
>>>>> reponseBody = sock.read()
>>>>> 
>>>>> perhaps a bit strange to use different libs for the different directions
>>>>> in the same module, but at least it shows that both ways work :p
>>>>> 
>>>>>   
>>>>>> Jani
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> 
>>>>> ~Toni
>>>>> 
>>>>>   
>>>>>> 2009/4/9 Toni Alatalo >>>>> <mailto:ant...@kyperjokki.fi>>
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> yuzo wrote:
>>>>>> > From my limited understanding, the Iron Python scripts for REX
>>>>>> live on
>>>>>> > the server. The LSL scripts seem to me something you construct in 
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> > editor on the viewer.
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> both are on the server, and executed on the server.
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> in opensim using the same scriptengine i think, am actually not 100%
>>>>>> sure of the details there now.
>>>>>>   
>>>>>> true, there is the difference that rexscripts you edit on the server,
>>>>>> whereas lsl you can edit via the viewer. but that just a UI and a
>>>>>> storage difference in the end, does not make a difference with
>>>>>> regard to
>>>>>> the execution, which is essentially similarily within an opensim
>>>>>> plugin
>>>>>&g

[realXtend] a look at 'web 3.0': semantic web and/or virtual worlds?

[Toni Alatalo]

Hi,

I'm giving a lecture on next Tuesday at the university of Oulu to 
students about some views to the development of the web, and am covering 
both the semantic web and 'the 3d web' i.e. virtual worlds there. To 
prepare that wrote an article, which includes a brief quite technically 
focused overview of the current web and those more recent developments, 
and then some pondering about their possible interplay. A motivation is 
that I haven't seen those two areas discussed together much yet. The 
current draft is and will grow at 
http://www.playsign.fi/web3/Introduction -- any comments or hints would 
be very welcome! (as emails or comments on the wiki page)

A special feat for opensim&realxtend users and developers: included is a 
wild idea of how we could start 'eating or own dogfood' more,  using 
virtual worlds for the development -- direct link to that part is 
http://www.playsign.fi/web3/Introduction#shared-functional-environments-for-software-projects

I've had the idea that that 'web3' wiki could serve as a place to gather 
info about such devs in the future too, this article and lecture being a 
starting point. Am happy to migrate to some existing place though if 
there already is one. Especially with the semantic web am quite 
uninformed about the current devs as haven't worked with it at all 
during the past few years.

Thank you for your time, if that seemed worth spending any for someone :)

~Toni

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[realXtend] Re: Status of ReX-NG?

[Toni Alatalo]

Mark Malewski kirjoitti:
> Does anyone know the status of ReX-NG?  Is it currently under 
> development, or are we still in the early planning stages?

The implementation started in early March, and the very basics are 
there: it runs, loads modules, including a networking module that can 
connect to a server and talk sludp, and an ogre renderer, tied together 
with the 'rexlogic' module etc. It gets terrain and prim data and 
renders at least terrain somewhat, and we are pretty much working on it 
full time with almost all of the Rex team.

http://dev.realxtend.org/gf/project/viewer/ is the forge with commit log 
and access to svn, where there are compile instructions too.

http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/NG_Design_Document/Implementation_Plan 
is how planned the work in early March so you can get an idea of what 
sort of things are targeted for 0.1 now.

So still early, but exists, functions somewhat, and is progressing.

> Mark

~Toni


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[realXtend] Re: Status of ReX-NG?

[Toni Alatalo]

Mark Malewski kirjoitti:
> but realistically... about how long do you think before 0.1 is 
> released?  Are you estimating about maybe July?  August?  Early fall?

I don't know if it's my place to announce this really, as am not one 
doing communications nor don't know if it's been officially set, but 
we've been talking of targeting 0.1 to late June.

I'm taking the freedom to mention this in public 'cause am thinking that 
getting a stablish 0.1 release then would mean getting to alpha in late 
May or so, and beta in early June, so alpha is kind of within sight already.
 
> In your personal opinion, are we ahead of schedule, behind schedule, 
> and do we need more developers?  What are your thoughts?

I think it's basically progressing ok. Featurewise I think we'll pretty 
much make it.

One thing I'd like to point out is that the /ways/ that these features 
are made now, and how they will probably make it to 0.1, are not all in 
the final intended way. So please understand that some are there in a 
work-in-progress / to be improved manner. Some parts AFAIK are pretty 
solid, like the network packet handling / the sludp implementation, but 
for example the internal event systems is at least now pretty primitive 
still. Not to mention the Python module, which is now worked on to allow 
making components to the client in py too (we're experimenting with 
doing IM like that using py written stuff for telepathy etc) - current 
version is a terrible hack, and don't know yet how sensibly it will make 
it to 0.1 (it's also related to the event system, which may become a 
central way to tie those components too).

That may also be an area where people could help, e.g. making 
experiements with possible enchancements to how things are in the 
framework, if there are some experts who could really dig into it.

An easier way to participate I think would be for anyone to start 
looking into implementing their own modules, if you/they have some own 
needs that are not on our roadmap.

Another thing is compiling on different platforms - no one has done it 
on macosx yet (our small company Playsign is the only Realxtend partner 
where we use macs too, but are pretty busy with other things so don't 
when would have time for that .. latest in June I guess if no one else 
has done it before, but there would be many other ways to use that time 
on actually developing the viewer too).

One thing to note about RexNG is that we are somewhat targetting small 
devices too, but AFAIK no one here has actually tried running it on a 
mobile phone or pocketpc or something like that yet. So if someone else 
is interested in / working on such things (small Linux devices? iPhone? 
Android? Symbian? .. OLPC?) it might be interesting trying to build for 
and run on those already now. I didn't check earlier, but googled a bit 
now and it seems that a patch to add a OpenGL ES renderer to Ogre was 
made and accepted last autumn, so perhaps that could work out? *OpenGL 
ES render system implementation 
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=302997&aid=2053570&group_id=2997*
 
.. a recent forum thread about that is at 
http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47788 .. with talk 
about Android and Pandora etc.

> Will ReX-NG have Skype support?  Will ReX-NG support spatial sound?

It strives at being a component system for which anyone can make addons. 
But we'll make defaults for such basic functionalities of course. For 
communications we'll be in the xmpp and, and we'll use the Telepathy 
libs for that. I don't know if they have Skype support too, but if not, 
it should be possible (at some point at least) to plug in another comms 
implementation. I think spatial sound is in the roadmap for a bit later 
too (i don't remember if it was bumped to 0.2 or something in the 0.1 
planning).

> Mark

sorry for the bit fuzzy post, should be going to sleep now, but 
hopefully got some good info cross -- thanks for asking :)
~Toni

> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Toni Alatalo  <mailto:ant...@kyperjokki.fi>> wrote:
>
>
> Mark Malewski kirjoitti:
> > Does anyone know the status of ReX-NG?  Is it currently under
> > development, or are we still in the early planning stages?
>
> The implementation started in early March, and the very basics are
> there: it runs, loads modules, including a networking module that can
> connect to a server and talk sludp, and an ogre renderer, tied
> together
> with the 'rexlogic' module etc. It gets terrain and prim data and
> renders at least terrain somewhat, and we are pretty much working
> on it
> full time with almost all of the Rex team.
>
> http://dev.realxtend.org/gf/project/viewer/ is the forge with
> com

skinning/ui (Re: [realXtend] Re: Status of ReX-NG?)

[Toni Alatalo]

Mark Malewski kirjoitti:
> One last question, is there any possible way to design the ReX-NG 
> Viewer to make the viewer "skinnable" so that it can resemble the 
> current SL Viewer and have the same look/appearance same menu 
> structure, and the same "look & feel" as the current SL Viewer?

With open source software, anything is possible. Just can be a lot of 
work for you :)

The UI will be skinnable, using some existing UI toolkit. We are 
currently using GTK, at least to get the debug windows and test controls 
up. With GTK you can make a .glade file (xml) that defines the layout of 
the GUI. For more about the plans see 
http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/NG_Design_Document/Viewer_Architecture/User_Interface

Ryan has been diving into Chromium/Webkit land now, after we tested 
Awesomium (a Chromium wrapper for the Navi library that is for enabling 
use of HTML or Flash to make UIs to Ogre apps), with the idea that we'd 
use Chromium as the UI library. Some days ago he got it rendering to 
something that could be displayed with GTK now iirc.

So if you can make a web page that looks and works like the current SL 
viewer, you should be able to use it as the UI in RexNG, if I've 
understood that plan correctly and we'll indeed get the UI that way. 
Embedding Chromium/webkit will be used for html textures too (like gecko 
in the old/current viewer), but that's kind of a secondary use case that 
comes along :) .. in Awesomium you can also use the in-world web pages 
interactively, I guess we'll do that too at some point (perhaps by 
including Awesomium or copy-pasting the code from there to how the 
integration is in RexNG).

That said, replicating SLviewer is not the reason for doing RexNG. It 
may be that the default UI we make for it won't look like current 
slviewer at all, but perhaps more like iPhone or some research things 
that use UI libs with animation support etc (we tested at Clutter in the 
research phase). For some UI concept drawings featuring different 
designs of 'catalogues', more visual than the slviewer inventory, see 
http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/NG_Design_Document/Avatar . Also we 
are not targetting the full featureset of SL. For example our company's 
use cases don't need almost any SL features, but need some things that 
SLviewer (and the protocol) doesn't currently support (e.g. making own 
game specific things etc).

As for the 0.1 release, I don't know if it'll have anything from the 
actual UI yet. At least there'll be the GTK widgets for logging in etc. 
that are there already for you to use :) .. but I'm guessing at least 
some nice start screen, perhaps made in HTML + CSS.

BTW regarding Chromium it may be a good idea to make the client side 
scripting API, that I'm working on too (besides allowing py components 
to the viewer), for untrusted code that comes over the network to use 
Javascript and the V8 engine used in Google Chrome too. But haven't 
looked into that yet at all, am testing with py first 'cause that we 
already have in place for trusted code.
 
> Mark

~Toni
 
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Mark Malewski 
> mailto:mark.malew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Toni,
>  
> I'm glad to see the timeline, I also noticed a "ModRex Support of
> 'Beneath the Waves" demo!  Excellent! 
>  
> Do we currently have 13 full-time developers working on the viewer
> right now?  I really hate to ask developers for dates or
> timelines, but realistically... about how long do you think before
> 0.1 is released?  Are you estimating about maybe July?  August? 
> Early fall?  Christmas? What are your thoughts?
>  
> In your personal opinion, are we ahead of schedule, behind
> schedule, and do we need more developers?  What are your thoughts? 
>  
> Will ReX-NG have Skype support?  Will ReX-NG support spatial sound? 
>  
>Thank-you for all that you do,
>  
> Mark
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Toni Alatalo
> mailto:ant...@kyperjokki.fi>> wrote:
>
>
> Mark Malewski kirjoitti:
> > Does anyone know the status of ReX-NG?  Is it currently under
> > development, or are we still in the early planning stages?
>
> The implementation started in early March, and the very basics are
> there: it runs, loads modules, including a networking module
> that can
> connect to a server and talk sludp, and an ogre renderer, tied
> together
> with the 'rexlogic' module etc. It gets terrain and prim data and
> renders at least terrain somewhat, and we are pretty much
> working 

[realXtend] Re: Status of ReX-NG?

[Toni Alatalo]

Paul Fishwick kirjoitti:
>  It has been a while since I tried out modrex, but I had related questions:
>   

I haven't had a chance to try it at all, spending all the possible time 
with viewer issues..

>  1. Is it advisable for us to start working with Rex-NG using the SVN 
> provided, or
>  to work with Modrex, given your estimated mid-summer 0.1 release? 
> Rephrased,
>  what are the essential differences between Rex-NG and Modrex?
>   

Working doing what? The NG viewer is still in very early stages, only 
interesting for people who want to develop it -- e.g. help with the 
framework or write own client side components like said in the earlier 
post. I don't expect it necessarily being really usable for anything 
with the 0.1 release either, but at least allow logging into a world and 
seeing *something* (though not perhaps everything), perhaps something 
comparable to where Openviewer and Idealist viewer are now. One reason 
why I think such a release still makes sense is that it'll put the cross 
platformess (like the mac build..) and the framework in general to test 
(e.g. that it works well with all the gfx hardwares etc., which usually 
is not a prob with Ogre but better to test earlier than later anyway).

Modrex is the server side.

So is the answer to your question that viewer is the client, modrex is 
for the server, both being components for the Rex NG?

>  2. Is Rex-NG a viewer for the OpenSim trunk? (and, as such, does it use 
> opensim
>  database, networking, and authentication?)
>   

Like said, Modrex is the NG server component. Also, the initial basic 
idea with starting the viewer work now was to not change the server or 
protocol first, so basically we are first making it work with the 
existing Realxtend architecture. I think the guys are mostly running it 
against rexserver 0.4 now. Earlier I ran it against Opensim trunk too, 
'cause rexauth etc. are/were not implemented yet anyway. I think rexauth 
will be implemented soon, but perhaps we keep Opensim auth in too (it's 
quite convenient often), dunno what the guys who wrote those parts have 
thought.

What exactly to do with the authentication in the future is a bit open 
question still, as I guess you know we've looked at OpenID an OAuth for 
it, 
http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Identity_and_Authentication:_OpenID 
.. and that was discussed a lot on opensim-dev recently.

In the long run, the Rex viewer is not made for any specific server 
implementation, or even protocol. The idea is to have a nicely modular 
framework where e.g. changing the protocol wouldn't be impossible. In 
this way the viewer is similar to Openviewer and Idealist, where e.g. 
adding MXP support has been straightforward (well with the initially 
less modular Idealist it meant Tommi L. needed to refactor it first to 
have IProtocol, but now it does :)

> -p
>   

~Toni
> Toni Alatalo wrote:
>   
>> Mark Malewski kirjoitti:
>>   
>> 
>>> but realistically... about how long do you think before 0.1 is 
>>> released?  Are you estimating about maybe July?  August?  Early fall?
>>> 
>>>   
>> I don't know if it's my place to announce this really, as am not one 
>> doing communications nor don't know if it's been officially set, but 
>> we've been talking of targeting 0.1 to late June.
>>
>> I'm taking the freedom to mention this in public 'cause am thinking that 
>> getting a stablish 0.1 release then would mean getting to alpha in late 
>> May or so, and beta in early June, so alpha is kind of within sight already.
>>  
>>   
>> 
>>> In your personal opinion, are we ahead of schedule, behind schedule, 
>>> and do we need more developers?  What are your thoughts?
>>> 
>>>   
>> I think it's basically progressing ok. Featurewise I think we'll pretty 
>> much make it.
>>
>> One thing I'd like to point out is that the /ways/ that these features 
>> are made now, and how they will probably make it to 0.1, are not all in 
>> the final intended way. So please understand that some are there in a 
>> work-in-progress / to be improved manner. Some parts AFAIK are pretty 
>> solid, like the network packet handling / the sludp implementation, but 
>> for example the internal event systems is at least now pretty primitive 
>> still. Not to mention the Python module, which is now worked on to allow 
>> making components to the client in py too (we're experimenting with 
>> doing IM like that using py written stuff for telepathy etc) - current 
>> version is a terrible hack, and don't know yet how sensibly it will make 
>> it to 0.1 (it's also related t

[realXtend] Re: a look at 'web 3.0': semantic web and/or virtual worlds?

[Toni Alatalo]

On Apr 20, 2009, at 11:24 AM, zeshu wrote:
> I am student at University of Oulu.I wanted to attend this
> lecture.Kindly tell me the time and date and also room if possible

it's today at 14 at the dept. of information processing sciences  
('tol'), IT116, part of the course 'web-tietojärjestelmien suunnittelu'  
i.e. web information systems design. i think the other students there  
are Finnish speaking, but if there are some who are not, i can speak in  
English (and the material is in English anyway).

~Toni

> On Apr 18, 9:00 am, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm giving a lecture on next Tuesday at the university of Oulu to
>> students about some views to the development of the web, and am  
>> covering
>> both the semantic web and 'the 3d web' i.e. virtual worlds there. To
>> prepare that wrote an article, which includes a brief quite  
>> technically
>> focused overview of the current web and those more recent  
>> developments,
>> and then some pondering about their possible interplay. A motivation  
>> is
>> that I haven't seen those two areas discussed together much yet. The
>> current draft is and will grow  
>> athttp://www.playsign.fi/web3/Introduction-- any comments or hints  
>> would
>> be very welcome! (as emails or comments on the wiki page)
>>
>> A special feat for opensim&realxtend users and developers: included  
>> is a
>> wild idea of how we could start 'eating or own dogfood' more,  using
>> virtual worlds for the development -- direct link to that part  
>> ishttp://www.playsign.fi/web3/Introduction#shared-functional- 
>> environmen...
>>
>> I've had the idea that that 'web3' wiki could serve as a place to  
>> gather
>> info about such devs in the future too, this article and lecture  
>> being a
>> starting point. Am happy to migrate to some existing place though if
>> there already is one. Especially with the semantic web am quite
>> uninformed about the current devs as haven't worked with it at all
>> during the past few years.
>>
>> Thank you for your time, if that seemed worth spending any for  
>> someone :)
>>
>> ~Toni
> 

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[realXtend] Re: Student Experiment - stability problems...

[Toni Alatalo]

Andreas Schmeil kirjoitti:
> Exception: System.ExecutionEngineException: Couldn't create thread
>   at (wrapper managed-to-native)
> System.Object:__icall_wrapper_mono_delegate_begin_invoke
>   at System.Threading.ThreadPool.QueueUserWorkItem
> ...which could indeed be a memory issue - right?
>   

certainly seems like server running out of resources, when it can't 
create a new thread anymore.

i'd bet there is still a lot of room for optimizations within opensim, 
which have also been quite recently done by folks elsewhere, but right 
now the best you can do is add more resources (memory i'd guess, unless 
there is something else preventing thread creation in mono somehow?)

> Andreas
>   

~Toni

> On Apr 21, 8:50 pm, Jani Pirkola  wrote:
>   
>> One thing you can improve (maybe) is to have more memory and cpu at the
>> server. I found out that a less powerful servers tend to crash more often.
>>
>> 2009/4/21 Andreas Schmeil 
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>> Hi everybody.
>>>   
>>> We just did an experiment in our OpenSim environment with 10 students.
>>> In all, we were only 12 avatars who were logged in. We were here in
>>> the university in a computer room.
>>>   
>>> Result: our OpenSim server (without modRex this time) kept on crashing
>>> all the time. I had to restart the server every 15 minutes, which
>>> restarted all the scripts, which meant the loss of all temporary data.
>>> And of course... all the fun and motivation was gone.
>>>   
>>> Has anybody here experienced similar crashes (OpenSim.exe crashes)
>>> when logged in with more than 5 avatars in a grid? All the pre-tests
>>> we did with less than 5 people worked perfectly...
>>> Okay, my question in one phrase:
>>>   
>>>   How to make it more stable??
>>>   
>>> Also, it seemed that the Second Life viewer was more stable than the
>>> realXtend viewer - in an OpenSim environment. The SL viewer never
>>> crashed by itself. Can you confirm this?
>>>   
>>> Tomorrow we'll have a new student group. Let's see how that goes..
>>>   
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andreas
>>>   
> >   


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[realXtend] Re: vertex animation

[Toni Alatalo]

On May 12, 2009, at 5:51 PM, Paul Fishwick wrote:
> An existing OGRE demo is facial animation, which involves moving 
> vertices

yes, ogre has both skeletal animation and vertex animation. i think 
exporters usually support both too (i.e. you can export shape keys or 
such from an animation package).

> around locally on a mesh. Is this possible using the existing python
> API? If so,

do you mean move individual vertices using your own code? you need to 
do procedural animation, and not play back a pre-made vertex animation?

> we may try to create a few examples via the realxtend viewer by 
> starting
> with the OGRE facial animation code.

i think that demo just plays back a pre-made animation.

both are in principle possible - playing back pre-made pretty 
straightforward and i guess in the roadmap if it's not implemented yet. 
i'd say it's pretty safe to make ogre vertex anims and e.g. some own 
little python-ogre app to view them locally, assuming realxtend will 
support playing them at some point too (especially if your dept. can 
put in some dev effort to add the support ;) .. but possibly only in NG 
if it's not already implemented for current.

enabling custom code to control vertices directly is much more involved 
and there are open questions like how it would be distributed across 
the different participants etc. but i think/hope it will be possible 
with NG at some point (we have discussed direct bone control more but 
the issues are quite similar, just that with vertices you have even 
more data and i think the distribution might work by having the same 
script running in each client and some higher level data would be 
synched, if possible with the usage in case)

> -p

~Toni


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[realXtend] Re: vertex animation

[Toni Alatalo]

On May 13, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Paul Fishwick wrote:
>> do procedural animation, and not play back a pre-made vertex 
>> animation?
> I am looking now at both: what is possible procedurally or w/ 
> playback. Are
> either, or both, possible given the current python API in rex ?

afaik there is no support for it in the protocol nor in the viewer 
natively, i guess you would have seen it if there was.

>> both are in principle possible - playing back pre-made pretty
>> straightforward and i guess in the roadmap if it's not implemented 
>> yet.
> Would we need to dive into the realxtend C++ code or is the python API,
> as it currently stands, appropriate? I suppose that is the essence of 
> my

it (obviously) needs client side support, and to my knowledge there is 
not (much of) a client side api in 0.4 at all. i think Tuomo did embed 
py there, or did you? the client side scripting commands that i've seen 
i've assumed to be just custom packets that you can send using the 
server side rexscript (.net/ironpython) api, for which the 
implementation on the client side is hard coded (in c++? or is embedded 
py used there?) certainly adding new network packets etc. to 0.4 viewer 
requires c++ work, touching the networking there etc.

so my guess is that if it's not implemented already, it needs c++ work 
(in 0.4).

> If we can use the existing realxtend python API to do this, we'll
> probably try that. However, if we have to go into the C++ code,
> maybe NG would be a more logical step over the long term.

like said my guess is that (at least) NG will have this support at some 
point anyway, but as it's not in anyones concrete plans yet AFAIK, it 
would be great if you could have a go with it.

it would probably be possible to make the py API in NG so that you 
could do that in py there. i'm planning to expose ogre things in the 
api there anyway, perhaps even reusing the python-ogre work, but 
haven't looked into that much yet (so far have just exposed the entity 
position, which is ogre data in the internals). the possibily of doing 
this kind of things with py modules came up also in the talks about 
direct bone control (even though both this and that may well be such 
core feats that can make sense in the c++ components with other basic 
things). anyhow handling own custom data in plugins is a requirement 
for the NG arch.


> We'd be OK with just using pre-defined animations for now, along the
> lines of what was done in the OGRE facial animation demo

ok. as far as i can see there are 3 areas where you could work:

1. if you have some specific need for vertex anims that should work 
together with some other functionality, you could just do that 
functionality first in some standalone (py)ogre app. obviously if you 
specifically want to have them in the rex distributed env, normal 
playback as they are and that's it, this option doesn't take you 
anywhere.

2. add it in c++ to 0.4 (add a new network package for it , make the 
handler for it using the ogre api within the viewer, and add the 
support to the server too). should be relatively easy, as on one hand 
playing back skeletal anims is similar ogre-api wise (even though for 
networking that might reuse the sl char anim playback command packet), 
and on the other hand e.g. the command to start a flash anim would be 
an example of adding a new command (AFAIK those are made using some 
kind of 'generic message' that's in the protocol). so for both parts 
there would be example code to look.

3. add it to NG. should be easier here, in either c++, or later when 
the API dev has made it there (and concrete usage needs are an 
important prioritizer in my dev there) in py too. whether this makes 
sense for you of course depends on your schedule and functionality 
needs, whether NG will meet them otherwise. right now it AFAIK doesn't 
even have avatar nor any animation data yet, the guys have recently 
implemented textures and meshes etc (and basic object (/& prim) data 
earlier). when someone gets to add skel anims, you'll again have an 
example how to do it, but don't know whether that'll be in the plans 
for the next sprint or 0.1 even.

> -p

~Toni


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[realXtend] Re: How to test Modrex

[Toni Alatalo]

Mark Malewski kirjoitti:
> ModRex is still under heavy development at the moment, and it's still 
> in very early ALPHA stages.  Keyword is ALPHA.

well in fact we are now switching to use modrex in our own development, 
i.e. starting to do the ng viewer development against it. modrex should 
be basically ready to use now, and as you can use it with a more mature 
opensim than the one from where 0.4 was forked from, it may even already 
be more stable etc. that said, it's right we are just in the process of 
taking it to use for the different dev teams, so not that mature yet. 
that migration was progressing just yesterday and today, so very recent 
progress.

but getting into beta i would say, perhaps, and testing is encouraged.

that said, 0.4 works hassle free so if you're interest is in using, and 
not helping in the dev and testing, better indeed to stick with that.

> Mark

~Toni

> On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Edwige Lelievre - ENER lab 
> mailto:edwige.lelie...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm trying to test Modrex, but whatever I try, it's not working at
> all !
>
> I'm on windows xp, with admin rights.
> I run local server (0.4 version) with rex viewer (0.4 too) on my
> computer without any issue.
>
> This is what I tried :
>
> 1/ I downloaded modrex-opensim-prealpha2009-04-27.zip
> I unzipped that. I placed a new OpenSim.ini at the root of the folder.
> I launched Authentication.exe and AvatarStorage.exe from my 0.4
> rexserver, then I launched OpenSim.exe
> I try to connect with Realxtend viewer with testu...@127.0.0.1
>  and
> password test
> The error I get is : login failed requested method
> [login_to_simulator] not found
>
> 2/ I used the same modrex file as in 1/
> But I use auth_0.5rc1.zip to get Authentication.exe and
> storage_0.5rc1.zip to get AvatarStorage.exe and launch them both, then
> I launched OpenSim.exe
> I try to connect with Realxtend viewer with testu...@127.0.0.1
>  and
> password test
> The error I get is : unable to connect to authentification server
>
>
> 3/ I used the opensim_modrex.zip file from Hispagrid (http://
> www.cybertechnews.org/?p=1290 )
> I launched Authentication.exe and AvatarStorage.exe then OpenSim.exe
> in the bin folder
> I try to connect with Realxtend viewer with testu...@127.0.0.1
>  and
> password test
> The error I get is :
> You have been loggued out of realxtend : You have been disconnected
> from the region you were in.Please try to connect after a short while,
> or connect to another location
> And after clicking on "ok" and waiting for a while :
> Unable to connect. Login packet never received by login server
>
> Any help will be much appreciated ! :)
>
> Edwige
>
>
>
>
> >


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[realXtend] Re: Streaming audio

[Toni Alatalo]

Gustavo Alberto Navarro Bilbao kirjoitti:
> Perhaps this post from Jani can help you: 
> http://maxping.org/technology/platforms/realxtend/mp3-player-for-realxtend.aspx

There was a misleading comment there so I replied, just for info here if 
someone already read it and saw that comment but not my reply.
Rex has extended the Linden protocol from the start and continues to do 
so, we are basically not limited by it, and this mediaurl thing is a 
working example of the fact (like is mesh support etc).

> Albert

~Toni

> 2009/5/27 Boris mailto:hr.bo...@gmail.com>>
>
>
> Hi all!
>
> streaming is assigned to terrain like in second life. Is it possible
> to give to objects the ability of boradcasting streaming audio ? in
> order to have spacialised sounds longer than 10 seconds, and with very
> optimized download...
>
> thank you
>
> Boris
>
> >


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[realXtend] MS camera & voice UI

[Toni Alatalo]

Hi,

am quite looking forward to trying these kinds of UIs out, dunno if Rex  
could be a partner for this particular tech .. to make a xbox build of  
the viewer supporting this, perhaps :o . i think this is resulting from  
MS recently buying one machine vision based game UI company, don't  
recall the name of that. of course similar open source solutions would  
be great .. don't know how far CV or perhaps that Animata 2d  
puppeteering thing that mentioned earlier could get us now. of course  
EyeToy has been this for long, but seemed that the company MS bought  
had pushed the precision and sophistication of the camera based pose /  
gesture recognition further.

---  
http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/consoles/microsoft-natal-will- 
replace-controller-604259 ---

Microsoft has made a bold play by announcing a 'controller free' Xbox  
experience called 'Project Natal' using full body motion capture and  
voice recognition offering a jaw-dropping concpet of the future.

Natal, which will work with all current Xbox 360s, is a revolutionary  
3D motion sensor that incorporates voice recognition, ending what  
Microsoft termed 'the barrier of the controller.'

Steven Spielberg was on stage to support the project – which was not  
given a launch date.

--- end ---

~Toni


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[realXtend] Re: MS camera & voice UI

[Toni Alatalo]

There's also a video at (at least)  
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8077369.stm

That was in fact a bit disappointing, from a controller perspective, as  
it didn't demonstrate much at all whether it works for doing something  
at least a little bit exact, or identifying variations in larger  
movements -- the company that MS bought boasted about being able to  
recognize golf swings, but this video features nothing such. The only  
situation with game like controlling is a 2d setting where making  
ripples to water, which is in fact essentially identical to almost the  
first thing our company did early on in 2003, as an installation to the  
local science center using an open source linux only machine vision toy  
called EffectTV (nowadays it's there as a Gephex plugin, which works on  
windows and mac too .. has things like making a fire or ripple effect  
where the camera sees movement, pretty simple).

It does feature nice character animation, and I guess a combination of  
clever AI and narrative scripting. And manages to recognize at least  
the gestures it is perhaps expecting based on the script .. hard to  
tell from such a preview demo video, as always.

~Toni

On Jun 2, 2009, at 9:39 AM, Gustavo Alberto Navarro Bilbao wrote:

> The correct link is:  
> http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/consoles/microsoft-natal-will- 
> replace-controller-604259
>  
> Interesante, muy interesante.
>  
> ///////
>
> 2009/6/2 Toni Alatalo 
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> am quite looking forward to trying these kinds of UIs out, dunno if  
>> Rex
>> could be a partner for this particular tech .. to make a xbox build of
>>  the viewer supporting this, perhaps :o . i think this is resulting  
>> from
>> MS recently buying one machine vision based game UI company, don't
>> recall the name of that. of course similar open source solutions would
>>  be great .. don't know how far CV or perhaps that Animata 2d
>> puppeteering thing that mentioned earlier could get us now. of course
>> EyeToy has been this for long, but seemed that the company MS bought
>> had pushed the precision and sophistication of the camera based pose /
>>  gesture recognition further.
>>
>> ---
>> http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/consoles/microsoft-natal-will-
>> replace-controller-604259 ---
>>
>> Microsoft has made a bold play by announcing a 'controller free' Xbox
>> experience called 'Project Natal' using full body motion capture and
>> voice recognition offering a jaw-dropping concpet of the future.
>>
>> Natal, which will work with all current Xbox 360s, is a revolutionary
>> 3D motion sensor that incorporates voice recognition, ending what
>> Microsoft termed 'the barrier of the controller.'
>>
>> Steven Spielberg was on stage to support the project – which was not
>>  given a launch date.
>>
>> --- end ---
>>
>> ~Toni
>>
>>  >>


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[realXtend] Re: MS camera & voice UI

[Toni Alatalo]

Toni Alatalo kirjoitti:
> There's also a video at (at least)  
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8077369.stm
> That was in fact a bit disappointing, from a controller perspective, as
>   

ok well this video has direct control, seems what i was initially 
expecting based on earlier info :)
http://www.viddler.com/explore/Joystiq/videos/1118/46.654

~Toni

> it didn't demonstrate much at all whether it works for doing something  
> at least a little bit exact, or identifying variations in larger  
> movements -- the company that MS bought boasted about being able to  
> recognize golf swings, but this video features nothing such. The only  
> situation with game like controlling is a 2d setting where making  
> ripples to water, which is in fact essentially identical to almost the  
> first thing our company did early on in 2003, as an installation to the  
> local science center using an open source linux only machine vision toy  
> called EffectTV (nowadays it's there as a Gephex plugin, which works on  
> windows and mac too .. has things like making a fire or ripple effect  
> where the camera sees movement, pretty simple).
>
> It does feature nice character animation, and I guess a combination of  
> clever AI and narrative scripting. And manages to recognize at least  
> the gestures it is perhaps expecting based on the script .. hard to  
> tell from such a preview demo video, as always.
>
> ~Toni
>
> On Jun 2, 2009, at 9:39 AM, Gustavo Alberto Navarro Bilbao wrote:
>
>   
>> The correct link is:  
>> http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/consoles/microsoft-natal-will- 
>> replace-controller-604259
>>  
>> Interesante, muy interesante.
>>  
>> ///
>>
>> 2009/6/2 Toni Alatalo 
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> am quite looking forward to trying these kinds of UIs out, dunno if  
>>> Rex
>>> could be a partner for this particular tech .. to make a xbox build of
>>>  the viewer supporting this, perhaps :o . i think this is resulting  
>>> from
>>> MS recently buying one machine vision based game UI company, don't
>>> recall the name of that. of course similar open source solutions would
>>>  be great .. don't know how far CV or perhaps that Animata 2d
>>> puppeteering thing that mentioned earlier could get us now. of course
>>> EyeToy has been this for long, but seemed that the company MS bought
>>> had pushed the precision and sophistication of the camera based pose /
>>>  gesture recognition further.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/consoles/microsoft-natal-will-
>>> replace-controller-604259 ---
>>>
>>> Microsoft has made a bold play by announcing a 'controller free' Xbox
>>> experience called 'Project Natal' using full body motion capture and
>>> voice recognition offering a jaw-dropping concpet of the future.
>>>
>>> Natal, which will work with all current Xbox 360s, is a revolutionary
>>> 3D motion sensor that incorporates voice recognition, ending what
>>> Microsoft termed 'the barrier of the controller.'
>>>
>>> Steven Spielberg was on stage to support the project – which was not
>>>  given a launch date.
>>>
>>> --- end ---
>>>
>>> ~Toni
>>>
>>>  >>
>>>   
>
>
> >   


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[realXtend] Re: building macviewer

[Toni Alatalo]

On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Lc wrote:

>   •   First, the Mac doesn't use any package managment tools by 
> default 
> and cmake relays on pkgtools to find all the

ports does seem to have pkgconfig though, is building it for me right 
now .. so perhaps we can still use that for cmake to find the libs on 
mac too.

>   •   Cmake are only splited in two OS defintions : Windows and 
> Non-windows. A rewritting is needed to take in account the Mac builds.

yah, perhaps partly sharing the non-windows part depending how far 
pkgconfig etc are similar on mac, linux and possible other unixes that 
there'll be.

> Any Mac experts are welcome to help solving thoses issues.

i'll be working on this somewhat and have previous experience on 
building on mac (ported soya3d long ago), but help is much appreciated 
'cause have a full plate otherwise too.

thanks for infos!

> Sacha

~Toni


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[realXtend] Re: building macviewer

[Toni Alatalo]

Ryan McDougall kirjoitti:
>> ports does seem to have pkgconfig though, is building it for me right
>> 
> If you'll be working on the mac Toni, it might make sense to add a mac
> binary package to the viewer-deps project.
>   

yes, although for the ones that the package manager (bsd ports being the 
candidate now) installs succesfully for us, probably doesn't make sense 
- similarily to Linux distributions where I guess there won't be deps 
binary packs but developers use the package managers for that. perhaps 
we can make a 'dependency package' though? i mean the thing that iirc 
exists on at least Debian that just lists the dependencies so you can 
install them with one command (something like 'aptitude install 
unnamedviewer-deps')

~Toni


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[realXtend] Re: Noobie has A ton of questions

[Toni Alatalo]

>> Im not a coder by trade Im an animator, But I have made a project in
>> Realm Crafter and want to port it to realXtend. Are there any
>> tutorials on how to add a gameframework or a combat system to
>> realXtend? Also is their a good web page on coding bots?
>> 

The documentation for the bot system is at 
http://docs.realxtend.org/index.php/Setting_up_bots - with a link to 
info about programming then in 
http://docs.realxtend.org/index.php/Content_Scripting_Python_Bots

This is using the rexscript system which is a module for opensim where 
the programming kind of resembles making an opensim region module, but 
using a framework (largely written in Python) for making server side 
logic of games, a description of the overall system is 
http://docs.realxtend.org/index.php/Content_Scripting_Python_Introduction

What kind of a combat system would you need? There is some in SL which 
may have in 0.4 with the heritage there, but I don't know the SL combat 
systems well at all (did think that things like 
http://slgames.wordpress.com/2007/01/31/samurai-island/ sounded like fun 
when heard about it).

For the client side and the overall system to support different kinds of 
combat things, the current usable versions up to 0.4 are perhaps 
restricted so that not everything is possible in sane ways. With the 
next generation viewer we hope to get an extensible system where you can 
implement custom GUIs more flexibly and even custom networking to enable 
making basically any kind of combat systems or whatever custom 
application you need. But that work is still to come. The server side (i 
mean scripting, and content format etc). is remaining the same anyway, 
so you can start with that and the current viewer right away and not 
worry about loosing work if get to switch to the ng viewer to get 
additional features later.

~Toni

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[realXtend] Re: Browser based Realxtend?

[Toni Alatalo]

Ryan McDougall kirjoitti:
>> Is it possible to view Realxtend through a normal webpage without
>> downloading and installing anything?
>> 
>
> This is not possible for any 3D application, as web browsers do not
> yet come with 3D rendering capabilities. However this is changing, as
>   

That said, people have been able to get that experience: run a hardware 
accelerated 3d scene in / from a web browser 'without installing', for 
several years now using Java. As Flash for the past years (idiotically?) 
missed 3d support, that has left the otherwise quite dead Java applet 
and later Web Start technologies with exactly this niche: enable game 
etc. makers use opengl in 3d things that run for the user without 
installing. *Supposing* the user had Java itself installed, like of 
course the Flash plugin is also required to run (2d) Flash games and 
apps. That has not been self evident with e.g. Vista shipping without 
Flash (and I suppose Java too) preinstalled.

For example the free-to-play RuneScape MMO is a 3d Java applet, just 
tested it now and it is running fine on my old mac that's sitting next 
to this compu here :)

There is a quite nice open source 3d engine, quite similar to Ogre which 
Rex uses, written in Java: http://www.jmonkeyengine.com/ . I think it 
would be quite straightforward to write a basic Rex&/Opensim compatible 
viewer using that, in case someone is interested. I've been considering 
JMe as an option for making 3d games for the web that should be easy to 
players to start. Instead of the old embedded-within-browser applet 
technology, Java things nowadays usually use Java Web Start which is 
just a way to launch a normal application from the browser - so when the 
app is running the browser is not in-between, it can do normal full 
screen etc. My son plays a networked football game called power football 
quite often, it's also a jws opengl thing, and running it has worked 
well on several computers.

Microsoft Silverlight and I guess those Windows Presentation Framework 
(WPF) things that are used in the MS tech based browser viewer Xenki are 
a new competitor to both Java and Flash (and Adobe AIR etc) there, 
interesting to see how that will go.

> both Firefox and Chrome will at some point include JavaScript 3D
> rendering APIs:
>   

Yah this will be very interesting, IIRC Adam was already testing to make 
some O3D ClientView to OpenSim.

> install within the browser. I have personally found in-browser 3D
> viewers to be no more simple to install than a separate program.
> It'd be nice for realXtend to do this, but I don't think it's
> currently a very high priority. That said, it is open source, so there
>   

Yah. Some apps work so that they are both a standalone app *and* a 
browser plugin at the same time, I mean the same installer installs them 
so that they can run as both. Quicktime on Windows and Adobe PDF reading 
etc. come to mind as examples.

~Toni


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[realXtend] Re: Browser based Realxtend?

[Toni Alatalo]

Jeroen van Veen kirjoitti:
> Did anyone mention o3d yet? => http://code.google.com/apis/o3d/
>   
yes :)
.. as seen below, Ryan was referring to o3d and canvas3d in his earlier 
reply,
and i commented on that too. am quite sure some opensim&/rex viewer that 
at least can show a static view of a place will emerge at some point..

~Toni

> On Monday 15 June 2009 06:21:52 Toni Alatalo wrote:
>   
>> Ryan McDougall kirjoitti:
>> 
>>> both Firefox and Chrome will at some point include JavaScript 3D
>>> rendering APIs:
>>>   
>> Yah this will be very interesting, IIRC Adam was already testing to make
>> some O3D ClientView to OpenSim.
>> 


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[realXtend] Re: co-browse - click on links

[Toni Alatalo]

On Jun 16, 2009, at 10:38 PM, Jani Pirkola wrote:

>
>> 1) is it possible to make this an interactive webpage (e.g. click on
>>  links, fill forms etc)
> 1) not with 0.4 version of the viewer - maybe with coming versions?

yes, webkit integration (now from qt) is being worked on so that 
webpages would work normally - even so that they could be also used to 
make the 2d ui overlays for the viewer perhaps. like in the awesomium 
demo, but not with that exact implementation now.


> Jani

~Toni


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[realXtend] Re: RealXtend server 0.5

[Toni Alatalo]

On Jun 30, 2009, at 9:30 PM, Paul Fishwick wrote:

>> 1. Taiga is build on top of evolving OpenSim trunk. We basically 
>> locked down the SVN and the Taiga-0.0.1 build is made with OpenSim 
>> r9952 and that is I believe from yesterday. We did this so that 
>> OpenSim commits won't break Taiga-0.0.1
> That's logical - they have "releases" and maybe those are good points 
> for lockdown.

Yes, Mikko P. here follows opensim dev closely so we are pretty well 
aware of the tags there and stability of the different revisions.

>> 2. You can login to OSGrid with Naali. We tested it out in house 
>> yesterday. But you can only see one region because Naali (nor Taiga) 
>> don't have multiple region support yet because it is early 
>> development phase.
> Is this related to bugs 189 and 193  in ModReX? I was wondering how 
> that was going. Multi-region
> seems problematic where NAT is used (i.e., router).

For the part about the viewer (Naali), it's totally unrelated to the 
modrex. With the viewer it's simply that multiple regions are not 
implemented yet. I know how Openviewer and Idealist do it, don't know 
yet how it'll be done in Naali and when. Would bet this year unless 
there is some reason I'm not aware of why multiple regions wouldn't be 
relevant.

It is kind of interesting though how MXP does it - there are no 
multiple regions for the viewer, just the single 'bubble' that is the 
sphere of perception for that viewer, and how the world is divided is 
up to servers only. Simpler for the viewer, and more flexible on the 
servers - regions can be of any size, if there even are separate 
regions, and they can be partitioned in any way as needed etc.


> -paul

~Toni

>
>> Brgrds,
>> Jonne Nauha
>> realXtend/Adminotech
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: realxtend@googlegroups.com [mailto:realxt...@googlegroups.com] 
>> On Behalf Of Paul Fishwick
>> Sent: 30. kesäkuuta 2009 18:27
>> To: realxtend@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: [realXtend] Re: RealXtend server 0.5
>>
>>
>> The project looks like it is evolving nicely. Some questions:
>>
>>  1. Is Taiga built on top of the evolving OpenSim trunk? In other
>> words--is the intention for it to be
>>  fully compatible with OpenSim ?
>>
>>  2. Related to #1: If someone from OSGrid wanted to try out Naali as 
>> an
>> alternative viewer, can
>>  they do this without using Taiga ?
>>
>> I ask this since in this page:
>> http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Main_Page#Project_Corus,
>> there are "Working Groups" and many of the areas would appear to 
>> overlap
>> with the goals
>> of the OpenSim project - so presumably, there is coordination?
>>
>> Thank  you.
>>
>> -paul
>>
>>
>> Antti Ilomäki wrote:
>>
>>> You can download the Naali viewer here:
>>> http://dev.realxtend.org/gf/project/viewer/frs/ but please do keep i
>>> nmind that it is a very early build and not really intended for
>>> day-to-day use. It renders a scene already, but not much more at this
>>> point. There's a lot of interesting stuff coming up later this year,
>>> though, and this is a good opportunity for developers to get involved
>>> and start working on the code. This is open source and we would like
>>> to see what you can come up with!
>>>
>>>
>>> 2009/6/30 Gustavo Alberto Navarro Bilbao
>>> >> >
>>>
>>> Just ready to download and test it:
>>> http://www.realxtend.org/page.php?pg=downloads
>>>
>>> Ejem, ¿and the NG viewer in some weeks perhaps ? ;-D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Paul Fishwick, PhD
> Professor and Director, Digital Arts and Sciences Programs
> University of Florida
> Computer & Information Science and Eng. Dept.
> Bldg. CSE, Room 301
> P.O. Box 116120
> Gainesville, FL 32611
> Email: fishw...@cise.ufl.edu
> Phone: (352) 392-1414
> Fax: (352) 392-1220
> Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>
>
> 

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[realXtend] Re: APPLICATION EXCEPTION DETECTED

[Toni Alatalo]

On Jul 1, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Gustavo Alberto Navarro Bilbao wrote:

> Exception: System.UriFormatException: URI no válido: el esquema del  
> URI no es válido.
>    en System.Uri.CreateThis(String uri, Boolean dontEscape, UriKind  
> uriKind)
>    en System.Uri..ctor(String uriString)
>    en  
> OpenSim.Framework.Communications.Services.HGInventoryService.Init(Inven 
> toryServiceBase invService, String thisurl, IHttpServer httpserver)

Does HGInventory there refer to HyperGrid? Are you using HG? If yes,  
could you try without it?

Modrex should work with hypergrid, it was tested earlier this spring,  
but I don't know how much that has been tested more reccently.

Some URI (web address) being invalid sound like an easy fix, hopefully  
just catching that exception and aborting that operation .. which seems  
to be inside opensim proper (not modrex), so probably something to  
communicate with opensim devs.

Mikko P. would be the best for this job, but he might be on holiday  
already. If no one else can, I might have a chance to look at this  
early next week or so.

> Albert.

~Toni


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[realXtend] Blender as an Opensim client for scene editing

[Toni Alatalo]

Hi,

this is a very early minimal experiment so nothing usable yet, but 
perhaps an interesting idea for users and I'm interested in getting 
feedback on the idea. Blender as a client using LibOMV, a two way live 
connection between Blender and Opensim .. you can move a prim in a 
viewer and it moves in Blender(*), or move an object in Blender and it 
moves immediately on the sim so the same movement is visible for other 
viewers too.

A screenshot and more info, and the blend with the setup and source, at 
http://playsign.fi/engine/BlenderOMV . Was planning to take a video, but 
fraps captures only a single window and didn't have time anymore to test 
other tools, so just a still now which is a bit boring.

Had thought for a long time whether this would work, so was happy to be 
able to test it a bit today :) .. dunno if anything actually useful 
could be made like this, perhaps, at least for basic scene editing 
(placing objects with nicer tools). We'll be probably thinking about 
this and other ways to integrate with Blender, perhaps on the viewer 
side, when work on Realxtend continues in August (in July the team is on 
holiday).

~Toni

(*) On Blender side the change shows only after you activate the window 
triggering a redraw, a well known limitation of old Blender for network 
synching. This will be fixed with the upcoming 2.5 version with the 
rewritten internal event system, later this year. From Blender to 
Opensim the sync is immediate, shows at the same time in Hippo as you 
move the mouse in Blender.


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[realXtend] Re: [Opensim-users] Blender as an Opensim client for scene editing

[Toni Alatalo]

Sean Dague kirjoitti:
> similar thing with a Gimp or Photoshop plugin, which would let artists
> use their texturing tools directly on in world surfaces.
>   

Verse did this with Gimp, quite promising. Typically the problem with 
adding networking to an application that was not written with it in mind 
is that things you are interested in, like when a part of an image 
changes, are not exposed from the application core. The Verse guys even 
forked gimp first to be able to do it. Later the plugin we used was for 
stock gimp, not fork, and it had to periodically scan the image and 
compare whether something in it had changed .. worked ok. Verse is quite 
clever in how it can transfer parts of textures as tiles for live 
updates (like it can move individual vertices of a mesh etc).

But also just being able to directly download/upload a whole image from 
your image app over e.g. libomv would be useful, and perhaps simple to 
do, so a good idea indeed.

>   -Sean
>   

~Toni

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[realXtend] Re: Caelum done and hydrax?

[Toni Alatalo]

¨On Jul 7, 2009, at 10:42 PM, MasterJ wrote:
> Ok it's good to see Caelum added to the naali viewer :) what you think
> about to add the hydrax project too?( it's concerning the water part)
> already done?

it was worked on in may/june, i think some code of it may be in even, 
but i head some talk that it would not be really suitable for large 
waters like the default ocean

.. that said i think we're heading for a model where there is no 
default content at least in the sense of hard coded, it's easy to 
imagine spaces without sea or land even.

dunno if hydrax would be easily useful for smaller waters or something, 
haven't used it myself previously (we did do one thing using code from 
the ogre interactive water demo  though, but that's another story)

~Toni


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[realXtend] Re: How many concurrent clients does realXtend support?

[Toni Alatalo]

On Jul 28, 2009, at 7:27 PM, bulma wrote:

Hi,

the guys who did that work last year are still on holiday (for July), 
so I'll respond instead.

> I have just see this 
> (http://www.youtube.com/v/AKg6zf9oPHM&hl=en&fs=1) wonderful 
> video and read that with
> realXtend 0.4 optimization is possible to have over 300 bots on LAN 
> servers. It means that is also possible to have over
> 300 clients connected?

No, it does not mean that.

The big difference is that those bots run on the server. In that sense 
they are similar to other objects that live on the server, like having 
hundreds of prims that move, and not similar to connected clients at 
all.

For server-side bots, like for prims etc., there is no connection per 
object to the server from somewhere else, the server doesn't have to 
send updates of what happens in the world to those, as they just access 
the server memory for what they need to know about the world.

The achievement in that video was optimizing the avatar update sending 
in the networking so that a connected client can get information about 
movements and animations of hundreds of characters. But not about 
enabling hundreds of clients which the server could handle. It's useful 
work making a rich environment with many bots, like a swarm of fishes 
or birds, or people walking streets or cars driving roads.

To allow more participants, I think there is much room in Opensim still 
for optimizations of how updates are sent to clients, to push up the 
current limit of 20 (or a bit more?) that they say works well now. 
Luckily we are not alone in doing that, but it seems that e.g. the 
folks at IBM and Intel are also pretty constantly profiling the code to 
find and fix bottlenecks etc.

> I'm curious to know what are the characteristics of the server that
> was made for this test.

AFAIK a normal powerful modern desktop pc, IIRC it was said in the 
article on realxtend.org in which the work was published.

> Cheers, bulma

~Toni


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[realXtend] Re: Fallo login with NAALI

[Toni Alatalo]

On Jul 29, 2009, at 10:24 PM, Gustavo Alberto Navarro Bilbao wrote:

> Thanks but login failed again ;-D
> With RX 4,1 we can log in the service without problems, but with NAALI 
> is impossible

i don't see anything wrong in the syntax in your latest screenshot, i 
guess you are sure that the ports etc. are all right.

what does the console output? (the dos window). it usually gives 
helpful info of login probs, like whether it can not connect or gets a 
reply that the auth fails (bacause of wrong credentials) etc.

> Albert

~Toni

>
>
>
> 2009/7/29 Ali Kämäräinen 
>> Hi. Instead of "h...@yourip" trt using just "hggd" as your username.
>>
>> -Ali
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>  >
> 

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[realXtend] Re: Fallo login with NAALI

[Toni Alatalo]

On Jul 29, 2009, at 11:43 PM, Gustavo Alberto Navarro Bilbao wrote:

> Well, very curious.

indeed.

> I was using the 9500 port to not to interfere with with our OSGRID 
> sim, running in the same server, and coordenates to the sim 6000/6000.
> Now I shutdown our osgrid sim, changed the port to 9000, the 
> coordeantes to 1000/1000 and now NAALI starts ok

we tested logging into osgrid from Naali iirc not very many days before 
release, and it worked ok. osgrid login is in port 8002 and iirc the 
syntax is server:port in the dialog (e.g. osgrid.org:8002) so that's 
how the parser should work .. with osgrid it's of course with opensim 
auth and not rexauth so a different dialog, but i guess the address 
parsing code is the same anyway.

you could test if osgrid works for you. Naali currently understands 
only a single region, and has no means to determine to which one you 
enter (we should add that to the login dialog and the procedure), but 
otherwise osgrid should work ok. i've had probs later (after release, 
with the release version) testing it in other places though, don't know 
yet why (was now thinking that perhaps a prob in using a non-default 
port, but don't believe that anything broke that during the last days 
before release)

btw Melanie told me a couple of weeks ago on irc that the blocker that 
there was in opensim core for gridmode to work with modrex is perhaps 
gone - grid/interregion/something stuff is refactored out of 
clientstack to a separate thing which should help. Charles Krinke has 
encouraged modrex users to add rex sims to osgrid which would be just 
awesome i find, hopefully we get to do that soonish now that the 
holiday month is ending..

> Thanks and more news from the NAALI's experiments place soon ;-)

Thanks for the patience to do pre-alpha / sub ver 0.1 testing :)

> Albert

~Toni

> 2009/7/29 Toni Alatalo 
>>
>>  On Jul 29, 2009, at 10:24 PM, Gustavo Alberto Navarro Bilbao wrote:
>>
>>  > Thanks but login failed again ;-D
>>  > With RX 4,1 we can log in the service without problems, but with 
>> NAALI
>>  > is impossible
>>
>> i don't see anything wrong in the syntax in your latest screenshot, i
>>  guess you are sure that the ports etc. are all right.
>>
>>  what does the console output? (the dos window). it usually gives
>>  helpful info of login probs, like whether it can not connect or gets 
>> a
>>  reply that the auth fails (bacause of wrong credentials) etc.
>>
>>  > Albert
>>
>>  ~Toni
>>
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > 2009/7/29 Ali Kämäräinen 
>>  >> Hi. Instead of "h...@yourip" trt using just "hggd" as your 
>> username.
>>  >>
>>  >> -Ali
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >  >
>> > 
>>
>>
>
>
>  >
> 


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[realXtend] Re: How many concurrent clients does realXtend support?

[Toni Alatalo]

Anu Mishra kirjoitti:
> Does this limitation of 20 client avatars apply across all regions in 
> realxtend OR is this 20 per region?

Per region. The UDP connection from the clients are to the region 
server, and it sends the updates of the movements of the other avatars 
etc. to everyone, and runs the physics etc. AFAIK there is no limit for 
how much a grid can handle, given you can cope with the assets, 
inventories etc. A trick that's IIRC used also on the Linden servers 
when organizing events is to have a central place in the intersection of 
four regions, so that if people are evenly around it the load is shared 
for 4 servers. I don't know how stable region crossings are now in 
Opensim nowadays, perhaps enough for that tech to work.

It's not a limitation that has been programmed as some sort of a limit, 
but empirical observations how the server current performs, e.g. where 
e.g. IBM now says that (their version shipped in that sametime3d thing) 
Opensim runs in a stable fashion. I think it's also tested weekly in the 
Opensim office hours at Wright Plaza, at least if there are enough 
participants to make it crash eventually :)

> I noticed that QWAQ (croquet based) also has limitation of 40 clients. 
> Is there a limitation on
> second life as well - given that IBM hosts events/conferences in SL 
> (their registration closes
> after some time that does indicate a limitation)?

There has to be some limit in SL, with the architecture where a single 
server handles everything in one place and communicats with all the 
clients there, but I don't know what it would be currently. And I guess 
any architecture will have *some* limit, but I hope with a clever one it 
will be 1000-1 (but am not surprised if was way too optimistic 
there.. it also boils down to how the space is partitioned and what it 
means to share space etc, systems like Bigworld or MXP are much more 
dynamic about it than the rigid SL arch).

For example in MXP AFAIK the clients don't know about regions at all, 
they just have a single 'bubble' which means their sphere of perception, 
and the server tells the clients the info they need. IIRC it was also so 
that the size of the bubble can be scaled as needed. Perhaps it might 
work e.g. so that when you are in an event with 1 avatars, you are 
not all the time communicating with 1 individuals anyway, but 
perhaps only see the ones within 3 meters from you (and that is perhaps 
20 :) and some performers on stage (ok so 5 more, let's say we can cope 
with 25) .. the huge crowd is shown to you perhaps using some mass 
system like sometimes used for large vegetations in games, or perhaps 
even image/video plates, like matte paintings in 3d making (those 
'paintings' are often nowadays 3d renders too, but rendered separately 
to be the background, to not have to render the whole scene every frame 
for the movie. here the same idea but to save load on the server). There 
is no fixed region size, the servers can partition the spaces how they 
want, and nothing of that shows in the network protocol nor in the 
client code, so it perhaps can be optimized in clever ways for dense 
mass events vs. sparse large worlds etc.

~Toni



> On 7/29/09, *Toni Alatalo*  <mailto:ant...@kyperjokki.fi>> wrote:
>
>
> On Jul 28, 2009, at 7:27 PM, bulma wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> the guys who did that work last year are still on holiday (for July),
> so I'll respond instead.
>
> > I have just see this
> > (http://www.youtube.com/v/AKg6zf9oPHM&hl=en&fs=1
> <http://www.youtube.com/v/AKg6zf9oPHM&hl=en&fs=1>) wonderful
> > video and read that with
> > realXtend 0.4 optimization is possible to have over 300 bots on LAN
> > servers. It means that is also possible to have over
> > 300 clients connected?
>
> No, it does not mean that.
>
> The big difference is that those bots run on the server. In that sense
> they are similar to other objects that live on the server, like having
> hundreds of prims that move, and not similar to connected clients at
> all.
>
> For server-side bots, like for prims etc., there is no connection per
> object to the server from somewhere else, the server doesn't have to
> send updates of what happens in the world to those, as they just
> access
> the server memory for what they need to know about the world.
>
> The achievement in that video was optimizing the avatar update sending
> in the networking so that a connected client can get information about
> movements and animations of hundreds of characters. But not about
> enabling hundreds of clients which the server could handle. It's
> useful
> work making a rich environment w

[realXtend] Re: setting up bots to speak

[Toni Alatalo]

Anu kirjoitti:
> Is it possible to setup a bot that can speak a pre-defined speech ?
>   

Yes, at least with the normal scripting system (for objects), just using 
llSay. I've done it in tutorial.py which is perhaps still in rexserver 
svn (it was made for a tutorial guide, a moving glowing sphere, a 
rexscripted prim).

I don't know the avatar-like-bots bot system with the xml config files 
etc., but would guess that you can with them too.

~Toni


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[realXtend] Re: setting up bots to speak

[Toni Alatalo]

Anu kirjoitti:
> i will try this tonight and post back
>   

ok. after posting i started wondering that perhaps you meant voice 
speech? llSay is just for text chat, and that certainly works easily. 
with voice i don't think it's done, might be interesting but probably 
requires some plumbing under the hoods first.

~Toni


> On Aug 3, 1:22 pm, Toni Alatalo  wrote:
>   
>> Anu kirjoitti:
>>
>> 
>>> Is it possible to setup a bot that can speak a pre-defined speech ?
>>>   
>> Yes, at least with the normal scripting system (for objects), just using
>> llSay. I've done it in tutorial.py which is perhaps still in rexserver
>> svn (it was made for a tutorial guide, a moving glowing sphere, a
>> rexscripted prim).
>>
>> I don't know the avatar-like-bots bot system with the xml config files
>> etc., but would guess that you can with them too.
>>
>> ~Toni
>> 
> >   


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[realXtend] Re: finding or making avatars parts and clothing

[Toni Alatalo]

AnthonyReisman kirjoitti:
> With objects I was able to use items on Sketchup to experiment with,
> but I'm not sure where to start for avatar bodies, shapes, clothing,

First about making a full avatar body: Avatars in Rex are Ogre meshes, 
same as the other objects. For animating it needs to have a skeleton, 
which can be also AFAIK of any kind - but if you make your own, then you 
also need to make your own animations. To reuse the default anims on the 
default skel, you can reuse that skel or make a compatible (for anim 
data) one. The default one you can deform in the avatar generator IIRC.

AFAIK attached objects (and clothes?) are Ogre meshes too.

Have you tried the Avatar generator and attachment tool (or how was it 
called) applications and seen the docs for them?

~Toni

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[realXtend] Re: Configuring Modrex with latest opensim

[Toni Alatalo]

Jonne Nauha kirjoitti:
> Latest OpenSim and modrex seems to build fine. Running is another thing in 
> your case than mine, because I'm running OS+modrex with gridserver and 
> modcablebeach and cablebeach servers. I'm using Taiga trunk that has head 
> revision of OpenSim and modrex.
>   

So have you pulled current Opensim head to there from GIT, where it 
moved during the holidays here? Just want that we are sure about this, 
don't know anything of the Taiga code activities done now in August so 
far. The old opensim svn has an old rev., there's a svn mirror of the 
git master somewhere though.

Or are you referring to same latest Opensim release or tag?

> Jonne Nauha
> realXtend
>   

~Toni,
from the same non-place.

> -Original Message-
> From: realxtend@googlegroups.com [mailto:realxt...@googlegroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of gfxguru
> Sent: 14. elokuuta 2009 16:59
> To: realXtend
> Subject: [realXtend] Configuring Modrex with latest opensim
>
>
> I'm wondering if anyone has had any success in getting modrex up with
> the latest opensim, or at least build 10115? If anyone has any links
> or resources in compiling and configuring modrex/rexserver please let
> me/us know.
> Thanks
>
>
>
> >   


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[realXtend] Re: Viewer debianisation patch

[Toni Alatalo]

Mika Boström kirjoitti:
>   In order to ease testing and distribution in future, we needed to
> create debian packages for the viewer.
>   

Thanks! (again, we've talked on irc too)

> funky problems later on, of which the python module should be the most
> obvious one. I'd like to use the system python where available instead
> of an embedded interpreter but maybe that's just me...
>   

What do you mean exactly? At least when I built the py module on ubuntu, 
it built fine against the system python.

But in the running application it has to run embedded inside the viewer 
process, otherwise it cannot access the memory nor call functions within 
the viewer that are the API for Python written plugins. It's still the 
same Python interpreter code though that your system has, just 
instanciated within Naali. It should be able to use any python modules 
that your system has etc.

Naali is not (currently) a set of Python libraries, which you could use 
from a non-embedded interpreter. But that question is AFAIK not related 
to building or packaging, but to how the app itself is architected.

> Running the viewer on hardware with Intel video seems to fail. In a
> virtual machine, binary segfaults immediately after initialising GLX. On
> my x86-64 host the error occurs later, when a shader program fails. Most
> likely a hardware and/or driver issue.
>   

On win32 it runs on Intel cards, so perhaps a driver thing?

Running on weaker gfx cards could be supported better by having some way 
of configuring which shaders are run.

>   The simplest way to provide these packages should be a debian
> repository, with the missing packages and (daily?) snapshot builds.
>   

That would be great indeed.

~Toni

> [begin packaging instructions]
>
> *
> *** RealXtend packaging for Ubuntu Karmic ***
> *
>
> Acquiring the required build-dependencies:
>
> - Poco 1.3.5: (not yet available in debian or ubuntu)
> - install these packages:
> dpatch
> unixodbc-dev
> libmysqlclient-dev
> - go to http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/main/p/poco
> - get these two files:
> poco_1.3.5.orig.tar.gz
> poco_1.3.5-1.diff.gz
> - build the sources:
> % gunzip poco_1.3.5-1.diff.gz
> % tar zxf poco_1.3.5.orig.tar.gz
> % cd poco-1.3.5-all && patch -p1 < ../poco_1.3.5-1.diff
> % dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -us -uc
> - install the non-debug packages:
> % cd ..
> % ls libpoco*.deb | grep -v dbg_ | sudo xargs dpkg -i
> - DO NOT DELETE PACKAGE FILES
>
>
> - Caelum 0.5.0: (not packaged for debian at all)
> - install these packages
> scons
> libogre-dev
> - go to http://sourceforge.net/projects/caelum/files/
> - get the Caelum-0.5.0.zip source package
> - unpack caelum sources:
> % unzip Caelum-0.5.0.zip
> - apply debianisation patch:
> % cd Caelum-0.5.0 && patch -p1 < ../caelum-debianisation.diff
> - build the sources:
> % dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -us -uc
> - install the packages:
> % cd ..
> % sudo dpkg -i libogre-caelum*.deb
> - DO NOT DELETE PACKAGE FILES
>
>
> RealXtend viewer:
> - make a fresh export   (only if plan is to upload packages+sources)
> - apply debianisation patch
> - build:
> % dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -us -uc -tc
> - install the resulting packages
>
> [end]
>
>   


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[realXtend] Re: 3Di Viewer "Rei" goes open source (BSD licensed in-browser viewer)

[Toni Alatalo]

Ryan McDougall kirjoitti:

just chiming in to elaborate on of the reasons why Naali and Idealist 
are not the same:

> The reason why realXtend couldn't proceed with Idealist, although the
> idea was seriously considered is the following:
> 2. language and rendering engine: more than half of realXtend are
> professional C++ programmers with years of experience with Ogre3D;
> tossing that out for C# and Irrlicht is not a trivial matter
>   

Also the idea with Naali was to quickly get something that is compatible 
with the existing server on a protocol level. At the same time the 
server implementation refactoring from a fork to an opensim module was 
completed, but the protocol and asset formats etc. stayed the same, so 
both the old rexviewer and Naali work with both the old rexserver and 
current opensim+modrex. And we got there relatively quickly: after 
programming started in March, in May we could see Rex scenes at least 
partially how they ought to be.

So with that idea it certainly seems that it made sense to continue 
using Ogre, and not switch the gfx engine at the same time.

Like someone already said in this crazily exploded discussion on the 
various lists, it is also good to have options. The Idealist techs: 
.net, c#, Irrlicht, .net gui libs etc have certain characteristics that 
fit certain usage environments, developers and libraries. Naali techs: 
c++ native code, Ogre, qt for ui and increasingly for other things, and 
cpython for non-native extensions (and javascript as qtscript) are a 
different family.

I do agree that there is and has been too much fragmentation, given how 
little resources most of these projects have (like lookingglass seems 
quite nice but is one guy, Idealist 2-3 occasionally?). It certainly 
would be nice if there was at least one complete enough open modular 
viewer that would be actually usable for stuff. It was interesting to 
hear on irc one day that some (teacher?) found Idealist already complete 
enough so that he could use that with his students - wanted something 
simpler and more restricted than full slviewer. But in some places the 
differing also makes sense, due to different platforms like described above.

At least we can learn from each other, like thanks to pyov and Idealist 
(which I think inherited it from pyov) we know one way to do multiregion 
support, which we don't have in Naali at all yet (and I don't know how 
it should / will be done, given that the whole SL way with regions is 
perhaps not a good idea).

In any case there will be several viewers, with different graphics 
engines etc. -- even if some of the open, modular, bsd-like things would 
merge, at least also the slviewer and others based on that will be 
there. So like said the questions about format standards and such 
interoperability are topical. For standardization it is good that there 
is a lot of different kinds of innovation first in many places, so that 
people get to know what actually needs to be standardized (mr. 
Tannenbaums networking book has a nice diagram about this) - some of 
that is already known now (mesh and scene data I think, animations to a 
lesser extent), but not everything I believe.

But I sure also hope that we keep sharing design ideas, perhaps code 
too, and who knows perhaps have some parts where have merged subprojects 
from different efforts.

~Toni

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[realXtend] Re: avatar service down?

[Toni Alatalo]

Antti Ilomäki kirjoitti:
> The service is down. We're trying to find out what the problem is, but 
> if you wish to visit the Expo meanwhile, you can probably use their 
> avatar service.

Yes, that works - I am logged in the with Naali now :)

.. on a laptop with old Intel integrated card, which hasn't even gotten 
driver updates in years, so those shaders don't work etc. But was fun to 
see autumn leaves flying smoothly, and the snowing was quite nice too -- 
I didn't even remember particles have already been implemented. I have 
an ugly screenshot if someone want to see, will be interesting to see 
how it looks in current Naali with some decent gfx card.

In the 0.42 viewer that this is currently meant for the overall feel 
seemed quite nice, fun use of an ice shader and all .. different from 
earlier Rex things, great to see I find -- congrats to Ludo for the cool 
project!

~Toni

> 2009/9/30 Jani Pirkola mailto:jpirk...@gmail.com>>
>
> Hi,
>
> is it just me and my home network setup or is the realXtend's
> avatar service down? I have been trying for two days to get to see
> the virtual expo...
>
> Jani
>
>
>
>
> >


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[realXtend] Re: avatar service down?

[Toni Alatalo]

Toni Alatalo kirjoitti:
> driver updates in years, so those shaders don't work etc. But was fun to 
> see autumn leaves flying smoothly, and the snowing was quite nice too -- 
> I didn't even remember particles have already been implemented. I have 
> an ugly screenshot if someone want to see, will be interesting to see 
> how it looks in current Naali with some decent gfx card.
>   

Ah seems based on reading the console output that the shader programs 
themselves are of course missing totally when running Naali, they are 
bundled to client and loaded from the net I think .. I guess those and 
other things made for 0.42 like the spherical world support can/will be 
ported over to Naali also at some point.

> ~Toni
>   

same.

>> 2009/9/30 Jani Pirkola mailto:jpirk...@gmail.com>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> is it just me and my home network setup or is the realXtend's
>> avatar service down? I have been trying for two days to get to see
>> the virtual expo...
>>
>> Jani
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>
>
> >   


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[realXtend] Re: avatar service down?

[Toni Alatalo]

Toni Alatalo kirjoitti:
> Ah seems based on reading the console output that the shader programs 
> themselves are of course missing totally when running Naali, they are 
> bundled to client and loaded from the net I think .. I guess those and 
>   

*not* loaded, that meant to be, sorry.

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[realXtend] Re: trying to build Naali

[Toni Alatalo]

Paul Fishwick kirjoitti:
> Well, if possible, I'd like to use your precompiled dependency package 
> without having to build it. Does this precompiled package (w/ the DLLs that I 
> need to copy)
> exist somewhere? It is not under:
>   

We just moved that precompiled zip to be a binary dir in the 
dependencies svn, lib/windows/lib has deps for bulding and 
lib/windows/bin the runtime dlls iirc.

> http://dev.realxtend.org/gf/project/viewerdeps/frs/
>   

So they've been updated in the svn of that project, also the binaries 
for windows, to match what current trunk head needs. On linux the 
distributions have almost all of the deps, and most of the deps sources 
are in that svn in trunk/

> -p
>   

~Toni

> Ryan McDougall wrote:
>   
>> There is a bit of a mis-match in documentation there. The wiki
>> documents the 0.0.1 release IIRC. There should be a version in the
>> doc/ folder in SVN that documents HEAD.
>>
>> We've basically removed the viewer deps tarball/zip in favour of the
>> viewerdeps SVN, which appears to be what you've got, so don't worry
>> about it.
>>
>> If you're using VC++ express, often you'll need the MS Windows
>> platform SDK to compile most anything with express; however since I
>> don't think we call any windows APIs directly (instead we go through
>> Qt), you may not need that. Also, there are some licensing
>> restrictions what you can do with a binary compiled by express.
>>
>> I'm not sure one "configures" the modules per se, only that if you
>> don't need a module, commenting it out from the build will make sure
>> it's not linked. At this point I think you can just use the cmake file
>> you get from a clean checkout.
>>
>> Please let us know if you have any other problems.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Paul Fishwick  wrote:
>>   
>> 
>>> Jonne
>>>  I thought I'd try to build Naali from source to see where it is in
>>> development. The
>>> plan would be to use Naali to access an existing Opensim server. Using
>>> this guideline:
>>>
>>>  http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Building_Naali_in_Windows
>>>
>>>  Installing CMake was not an issue, but I do not follow these
>>> instructions.
>>>  From Gforge, I used the access info: svn co
>>> http://dev.realxtend.org/svn/viewerdeps
>>> to C:\viewerdeps.  Where is "viewer-dependencies-VS2008" ? Also, can
>>> Visual C++ Express edition be used (in the same spirit as one can use
>>> Visual C# Express edition to compile opensim)? Thanks
>>>
>>>  I also have some questions on "Building the Viewer" but have yet to get
>>> to that
>>> stage, such as:
>>>
>>>  What does "Open up  and configure the set of modules by commenting
>>> out the
>>>  unnecessary ones.."  mean ? Anyway, I suppose I'll cross that bridge
>>> when I come
>>>  to it.
>>>
>>> -p
>>>
>>> ..
>>>
>>>
>>> Jonne Nauha wrote:
>>> 
>>>   
 Here is a wiki page where I tried to cover the most server and auth
 types and how to login to/with them.
 http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Getting_Started_with_Naali#Login_to_worlds

 - Jonne

   
 
>>> --
>>> Paul Fishwick, PhD
>>> Professor and Director, Digital Arts and Sciences Programs
>>> University of Florida
>>> Computer & Information Science and Eng. Dept.
>>> Bldg. CSE, Room 301
>>> P.O. Box 116120
>>> Gainesville, FL 32611
>>> Email: fishw...@cise.ufl.edu
>>> Phone: (352) 392-1414
>>> Fax: (352) 392-1220
>>> Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>   
>>   
>> 
>
>
>   


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[realXtend] Re: trying to build Naali

[Toni Alatalo]

Paul Fishwick kirjoitti:
> 2. In your instructions, the next step is to copy the DLLs to a new folder
> yet to be created: C:\viewerTrunk\viewer\bin, and then to continue to
>   

no, that directory already exists in your svn checkout - in the Naali 
trunk. that's where, when building with visual studio, it copies the exe 
and under there you have runtime stuff like configurations and the data 
of the default avatar etc.

> #4 (Building the Viewer). Then there is a reference in section #4 to
> a file "viewerTrunk\viewer\CmakeLists.txt. Where is this file? I do not 
> recall seeing instructions in:
> http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Building_Naali_in_Windows
> for downloading additional files into "viewertrunk". Have I missed a step?
>   

no you haven't - that file is already in the root of trunk in svn, so 
should be in the root of your working copy too.

you don't need to touch it for the defaults, but that's where you can 
configure which modules you want to build.

> -p
>   

~Toni

> Jonne Nauha wrote:
>   
>> Small correction runtime dll:s that you copy to /bin are 
>> in "/bin/windows/dist/bin". Small renaming of folders recently :) Its 
>> still a little confusing, but thats how it is for now.
>>
>> - Jonne
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Toni Alatalo > <mailto:ant...@kyperjokki.fi>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Paul Fishwick kirjoitti:
>> > Well, if possible, I'd like to use your precompiled dependency
>> package
>> > without having to build it. Does this precompiled package (w/
>> the DLLs that I need to copy)
>> > exist somewhere? It is not under:
>> >
>>
>> We just moved that precompiled zip to be a binary dir in the
>> dependencies svn, lib/windows/lib has deps for bulding and
>> lib/windows/bin the runtime dlls iirc.
>>
>> > http://dev.realxtend.org/gf/project/viewerdeps/frs/
>> >
>>
>> So they've been updated in the svn of that project, also the binaries
>> for windows, to match what current trunk head needs. On linux the
>> distributions have almost all of the deps, and most of the deps
>> sources
>> are in that svn in trunk/
>>
>> > -p
>> >
>>
>> ~Toni
>>
>> > Ryan McDougall wrote:
>> >
>> >> There is a bit of a mis-match in documentation there. The wiki
>> >> documents the 0.0.1 release IIRC. There should be a version in the
>> >> doc/ folder in SVN that documents HEAD.
>> >>
>> >> We've basically removed the viewer deps tarball/zip in favour
>> of the
>> >> viewerdeps SVN, which appears to be what you've got, so don't worry
>> >> about it.
>> >>
>> >> If you're using VC++ express, often you'll need the MS Windows
>> >> platform SDK to compile most anything with express; however since I
>> >> don't think we call any windows APIs directly (instead we go
>> through
>> >> Qt), you may not need that. Also, there are some licensing
>> >> restrictions what you can do with a binary compiled by express.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not sure one "configures" the modules per se, only that if you
>> >> don't need a module, commenting it out from the build will make
>> sure
>> >> it's not linked. At this point I think you can just use the
>> cmake file
>> >> you get from a clean checkout.
>> >>
>> >> Please let us know if you have any other problems.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Paul Fishwick
>> mailto:fishw...@cise.ufl.edu>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Jonne
>> >>>  I thought I'd try to build Naali from source to see where it
>> is in
>> >>> development. The
>> >>> plan would be to use Naali to access an existing Opensim
>> server. Using
>> >>> this guideline:
>> >>>
>> >>>  http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Building_Naali_in_Windows
>> >>>
>> >>>  Installing CMake was not an issue, but I do not follow these
>> >>> instructions.
>> >>>  From Gforge, I used the access info: svn co
>> 

[realXtend] Re: trying to build Naali

[Toni Alatalo]

n:
>>>> 
>>> That file is in SVN:
>>>
>>> http://dev.realxtend.org/gf/project/viewer/scmsvn/?action=browse&path=%2Ftrunk%2FCMakeLists.txt&view=markup
>>>
>>> But to just build the viewer, you don't even need to know that, just
>>> run cmake_vs2008.bat
>>>
>>>   
>>>> http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Building_Naali_in_Windows
>>>>
>>>> for downloading additional files into "viewertrunk". Have I missed a
>>>> step?
>>>>
>>>> -p
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> If you're downloading SVN trunk, you need to use the instructions
>>> here:
>>> http://dev.realxtend.org/gf/project/viewer/scmsvn/?action=browse&path=%2Ftrunk%2Fdoc%2Fbuild-windows.txt&view=markup
>>>
>>> If you're downloading from SVN tag, you can use the wiki instructions.
>>> I guess this wasn't made very clear: wiki tracks releases, svn tracks
>>> svn HEAD.
>>>
>>> #1 solve the build dependencies, that's in viewerdeps/bin/windows/*
>>> #2 build the viewer using cmake_vs3008.bat
>>> #3 solve the runtime dependencies, that's in
>>> viewerdeps/bin/windows/dist/bin -> trunk/viewer/bin
>>> #4 run trunk/viewer/bin
>>>
>>> In linux it's all quite a bit easier, you do
>>>
>>> #1 sudo yum/apt-get 
>>> #2 cmake . && make
>>> #3 ./bin/viewer
>>>
>>> but the linux build so far has less testing.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>   
>>>> Jonne Nauha wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Small correction runtime dll:s that you copy to /bin are
>>>>> in "/bin/windows/dist/bin". Small renaming of folders recently :) Its
>>>>> still a little confusing, but thats how it is for now.
>>>>>   
>>> ps. The fix would be to put the build dependencies into
>>> "bin/windows/build/*. I take it you've signed up to do that? :P
>>>
>>>   
>>>>> - Jonne
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Toni Alatalo >>>> <mailto:ant...@kyperjokki.fi>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Fishwick kirjoitti:
>>>>> > Well, if possible, I'd like to use your precompiled dependency
>>>>> package
>>>>> > without having to build it. Does this precompiled package (w/
>>>>> the DLLs that I need to copy)
>>>>> > exist somewhere? It is not under:
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> We just moved that precompiled zip to be a binary dir in the
>>>>> dependencies svn, lib/windows/lib has deps for bulding and
>>>>> lib/windows/bin the runtime dlls iirc.
>>>>>
>>>>> > http://dev.realxtend.org/gf/project/viewerdeps/frs/
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> So they've been updated in the svn of that project, also the
>>>>> binaries
>>>>> for windows, to match what current trunk head needs. On linux the
>>>>> distributions have almost all of the deps, and most of the deps
>>>>> sources
>>>>> are in that svn in trunk/
>>>>>
>>>>> > -p
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> ~Toni
>>>>>
>>>>> > Ryan McDougall wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> There is a bit of a mis-match in documentation there. The wiki
>>>>> >> documents the 0.0.1 release IIRC. There should be a version in
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> doc/ folder in SVN that documents HEAD.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> We've basically removed the viewer deps tarball/zip in favour
>>>>> of the
>>>>> >> viewerdeps SVN, which appears to be what you've got, so don't
>>>>> worry
>>>>> >> about it.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> If you're using VC++ express, often you'll need the MS Windows
>>>>> >> platform SDK to compile most anything with express; however
>>>>> since I
>>>>> >> don't think we call any windows APIs directly (instead we go
>>>>

[realXtend] Re: Python scripting issue with Modrex

[Toni Alatalo]

Edwige Lelievre - ENER lab kirjoitti:
> I'm trying Modrex right now (server 0.5 and viewer 0.42) and I have a
> really strange scripting issue : when I add any python script in my
> local server, python doesn't work anymore (for any script, even python
>   

Do you see any error which would indicate what is going on? It's hard to 
imagine it would be broken somehow when the bundled ones work, loading 
them is no different to the new ones you add.

> Edwige Lelièvre of ENER research group
>   

~Toni

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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http://www.realxtend.org
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[realXtend] Re: Realxtend will use the MXP protocol in the future?

[Toni Alatalo]

Kripken kirjoitti:
> The bottom line in my definitions is this: In a 'continuous' 
> architecture, all the regions behave in one way - be it SL, or Quake, 
> or something else. That is still quite flexible, just as you said 
> (users can change their avatars, etc.). But in a 'non-continuous' 
> architecture, one region can behave like SL, another like Quake, and 
> another otherwise, while at the same time all are accessible with a 
> single client. That was a requirement for us during our planning 
> stage, and it is what led to our current architecture and implementation.

And based on what has been said here, seems to me MXP was made for that 
too. The talk about it just relaying messages between participants: 
isn't it exactly so that applications, worlds, whatevers, can have their 
own code and use their own packet types there? And MXP just basically 
says 'you can use google protocol buffers for that' ? Which itself has 
seemed good to us, for making e.g. games, which typically need custom 
packets (like 'bomb exploded', and sometimes e.g. spherical movement code).

> To compare to the web: MXP is a parallel for HTTP, while the 
> Syntensity API is a parallel for JavaScript (the core language + the 
> standard web browser stuff). To continue the analogy, having just MXP 
> is like a web browser without JavaScript - it can only show HTML ('one 
> type' of virtual world, in the analogy). That is why I said that the 
> language + API was more interesting to me: The

I've been for quite a while now trying to stay on track of what we could 
perhaps do in client APIs, with regards to perhaps standardization or 
some kind of interoperability.

And in the development of the Naali API, the idea is exactly that it 
should allow the kind of things that DOM enables for html+javascript, 
but for virtual worlds - whatever that means. For some apps it may be 
that the equivalent of the DOM document is the vw scene, but largely I 
think also basic UI things like raycasting and perhaps getting touch 
events on the client side etc., like mouse stuff etc is of course 
important in browser apps like google maps.

It is interesting that even the Linden viewer has something a little bit 
in this direction .. in letting scripts override arrowkeys (e.g. driving 
game retro arcade coin machines), kind of client api stuff,

but of course things like different space types, coordinate systems or 
something are a bit different question. Like said I've been thinking 
that a scene object is easily useful for many things, the first useful 
thing in Naali API was that ob&rot&scale are exposed for all entities. 
It's now used in the editing gui plugin, but the hope in developing that 
tool and the api for it has been that it would also give tools for 
writing own custom behaviours in games or other apps. We have some games 
of our own from where have drawn requirements, those are in the wiki if 
someone is curious (when it comes back on-line..)

> language + API is what allows a 'non-continuous' architecture to run 
> both SL-like and Quake-like worlds with the same client, which is what 
> I am interested in.

So what is required from that API..? :p

> - kripken

a bit to Arkowitz too:
 
>
> Many fine efforts will continue to go nowhere as long as devs are
> forging ahead without a proper and deep discussion of architecture.
> Issues and principles such as we are getting to in this conversation,
> in a roundabout way, should be discussed prior to running down the
> primrose path with code.
>

Basically the situation with Realxtend is that the 'next generation' 
roadmap started with the idea that we needed a new viewer codebase as 
some kind of a plugin system, an extensible modular framework. But also 
to soon quite straightforwardly implement the existing / legacy protocol 
for which there already was the working servers, ready made demo worlds 
etc., and features those need to the viewer.

That has now been largely done. Should become actually usable by early 
next year or so, a working replacement for some things at least.

But the whole idea is to go beyond, start getting the new features -- 
the ones for which we needed the new architecture. And this 'html + 
javascript' analogy related idea of having a generic platform that can 
run many apps, with different UIs and behaviours etc., is one we've been 
pursuing. It just now is in the 'next year when basics are done enough' 
department. But we do keep research periods and parallel research tasks 
etc going on, might be a good time to look at e.g. Syntensity things 
(also reading the sirikata protocol spec is still waiting in my todo) 
after a few weeks or so when 0.0.2 is out the door.

One thing Jonne and Ryan were doing a couple of weeks ago was this 
protocol module refactor, separating login stuff related to auth to a 
WorldSession and then the realtime 3d coords etc stuff to WorldStream, 
as a step towards adding(/switching) protocols (to mxp or sirikat

[realXtend] Re: Realxtend will use the MXP protocol in the future?

[Toni Alatalo]

Kripken wrote:
> be just a subset of MXP, without e.g. the position/movement updates 
> and so forth.  And my main point is that a *fixed* protocol using 
> Google Protocol Buffers etc. on top of MXP, isn't enough; the protocol 
> needs to be able to change in each area you connect to.

I thought that exactly is the idea: use google protobufs for your own 
stuff, application specific custom network packets. Like we've done with 
e.g. raknet when making games.

> Of course, the API/DOM must allow stuff like you mentioned above, 
> including input handling, entity/object control, visual effects, 
> sound, etc. etc. That stuff is an area where I do not think much 
> innovation is needed, it is fairly straightforward.

Agreed. Just something we need to do in a sane enough way in Naali too. 
Am looking forward to seeing more how it is in other places.

> My argument here has been that such an API/DOM needs to also allow 
> each region to have its own custom network protocol. I don't see any 
> other way that would allow a single client to connect to different 
> kinds of worlds, SL/Quake/ etc. So that is what Syntensity uses, and I 
> don't think we have found any fundamental problems with the approach 
> so far.

I think that is the way too.

Games usually work by having own packets for the things that happen in 
that game / world.

> Btw, to repeat myself from the past, I would be very happy to work 
> with realXtend on this. The less duplicated effort the better.

Right-o. Like said I think we must study Syntesity more at this end once 
get the chance. Is also always interesting to hear more about what you'd 
expect from us.

> - kripken

~Toni


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[realXtend] Re: Python scripting issue with Modrex

[Toni Alatalo]

Edwige Lelievre - ENER lab wrote:
> I import rxactor in my scripts, is that the issue ? It worked fine on
>   

Apparently you don't use rxactor anywhere in your code, so the import is 
there in vain.

Python works so that nothing pollutes your namespace: when you say 
'import rxactor', the *only* thing it does to your namespace is that 
there is now in object called 'rxactor' you can use (and it's a module 
that has been loaded in the memory, the code in it executed).

By doing a search for 'rxactor' in this email it seemed that nothing was 
using that module for anything, there is nothing saying 
rxactor.SomeThing(), so there is no way anything in the code here would 
be using it.

~Toni


> 0.4 server and these are scripts from rex wiki.
>
> This is a script I tested (but I tested at least 5 differents scripts)
> and there is a problem with server 0.5. I tested with 3 different
> computers on windows xp and vista.
>
> ---
> # script that turns on post processing effect for everyone that enters
> the world
>
>
> import rxactor
> import rxavatar
> import rxworldinfo
> import sys
> import math
> import clr
>
> asm = clr.LoadAssemblyByName('OpenSim.Region.ScriptEngine.Common')
> Vector3 = asm.OpenSim.Region.ScriptEngine.Common.LSL_Types.Vector3
>
> class PostPro(rxworldinfo.WorldInfo):
> def GetScriptClassName():
> return "edwigePostprocess.PostPro"
>
> def EventCreated(self):
> super(self.__class__,self).EventCreated()
> self.MyWorld.MyEventManager.onAddPresence +=
> self.handleOnAddPresence
>
> def EventDestroyed(self):
> self.MyWorld.MyEventManager.onAddPresence -=
> self.handleOnAddPresence
> super(Truc,self).EventDestroyed()
>
> def handleOnAddPresence(self,vAvatar):
> vAvatar.rexSetPostProcess(3,True)
> #change the number here to change the post processing effect
> #see Postprocess.compositor in the viewer media\materials
> \scripts\
>
> -
>
> If the import rxactor is the issue, can I remove it without any change
> in the script behavior ?
>
> Thanks !
>
> Edwige
>
> On Oct 29, 1:49 pm, Mikko Pallari  wrote:
>   
>> From the screen shot I can see that something is going wrong in the server
>> with the script added.
>>
>> For some reason it cant find the rxactor in some script. Did you use "import
>> rxactor" in script which you added?
>>
>> -Mikko
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Edwige Lelievre - ENER lab <
>>
>> edwige.lelie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Thank you both for your answers.
>>>   
>>> James, I already know that, and the fact that my scripts work fine
>>> with the 0.4 server makes me think this is not the problem (or
>>> something change in the syntax with server 0.5 ?)
>>>   
>>> Toni, this is a screenshot comparing the opensim.exe window with an
>>> empty server, and with a script added to the server :
>>> http://www.armaghia.fr/phd/python_modrex.jpg
>>>   
>>> It looks like python initialization is a problem, but I don't know
>>> why...
>>>   
>>> Edwige
>>>   
>>> On 27 oct, 06:51, James_Ross  wrote:
>>>   
 Your problem is either one of two issues.
 
 1) in the way that the server handles python scripts. The reason why
 your python stops functioning is because the __init__ file is loaded
 during server start-up. If you edit the __init__ file to add a new
 python script to the server, you must restart the server. If you edit
 a script and it has an error, it will tell you the error in the server
 console window when you try to run the script.
 
 2) When you added your files, you made a mistake in the __init__ file
 or in the files you added. Be very careful of spacing, it has caused
 scripts that I thought would work fine, not function at all.
 
 Possible Solution:
 
 Without your server running, make a copy of one of the files already
 in the Samples folder. I suggest testobject.py as it will produce an
 easy to see result. Rename this file to testMe.py.
 Add the import command to your __init__.py file. These files are case-
 sensitive. Start your server. If you made a mistake you will see an
 error message in the server console window. Attempt to use your
 script.
 
 Example of what to class to point the object to if you used the
 testobject.py file.
 
testMe.Test
 
 Click on the object and see if it works.
 
 Hope this helps,
 James
 
 On Oct 25, 12:31 pm, Edwige Lelievre - ENER lab
 
  wrote:
 
> Hi everyone,
>   
> I'm trying Modrex right now (server 0.5 and viewer 0.42) and I have a
> really strange scripting issue : when I add any python script in my
> local server, python doesn't work any

[realXtend] Re: Realxtend will use the MXP protocol in the future?

[Toni Alatalo]

Kripken wrote:
> If you made a game where every level/room/area could have a completely 
> different Protocol Buffers definition set (that the client only learns 
> when connecting to there, dynamically), then that is basically what I 
> am talking about, + an API on top of that to make it easy to construct 
> such definition sets in a modular way as well as implement them.

Sounds like a plan.

Basically what has seemed that is required to do what we've thought of too.

> - kripken

~Toni


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http://www.realxtend.org
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[realXtend] Re: Linux support: Status and Intentions

[Toni Alatalo]

Ryan McDougall kirjoitti:
> builds, but no one volunteered for Linux. We briefly wrung our hands
> over it, especially the part about breaking code freeze over it, then
> agreed that this was a minor release and Linux users often prefer to
>   

Actually we did break one code freeze to apply a patch to make the new 
stuff in communications module to compile on linux/posix also, so that 
the 0.0.2 tag compiles I think fully on Linux. But yes, as it was just a 
snapshot release anyway and we continue to improve things in trunk, and 
are AFAIK not introducing new dependencies now soon, so will be better 
for linux (and mac) builders to just use trunk.

As you are able to run otherwise ok but get the threading crash in 
texture decoding, might be an interesting experiment to disable texture 
decoding to see how much and how reliably other things work. And perhaps 
make a small standalone test app with just the texture decoding if the 
prob is not easy to find otherwise .. of course that might not have the 
threading issue you're having in the full app though.

One thing we discussed with Erno, who was fixing the windows specific 
stuff in communications to build on posix & gcc too, was that it would 
be good to set a build-bot on some server to ensure that things compile 
an all/both (msvc&gcc) platforms after every commit. Is kind of standard 
practice and I think good to have, 'cause mistakes are easy to make both 
ways (Blender often gets commits that break visual studio compiling, 
also doesn't have a buildbot yet, so ppl complain on irc or mailing 
list). Erno was interested in setting this up as a part of his work for 
rex,. We've been also planning to do the future stuff with the py api in 
a test driven fashion (the namespace refactor from hackish c++ rexviewer 
-> pythonic naali in c++ & py) and it would be good to have a server 
setup for running the tests after commits too, against a test server 
setup to verify that also the networking works.

Regarding Cg, it may be that the current Naali uses some shader written 
in cg by default (perhaps the water?), but even if that's the case it 
doesn't mean that it would be a somehow integral part of the 
application. From an engine perspective, shaders are just content (like 
an image), and what content you use is more a configuration than a 
programming issue. With Ogre it usually works so that in code you apply 
materials, and the material definitions refer to texture images and 
shader programs that are used, and those are easily changed. The use of 
shaders needs to be configurable to support low end hardware too ('cause 
reportedly (Lasse said) Ogre doesn't do a good job detecting itself what 
is supported).

About a Mac build, I've once ported (or more like just built, with small 
things added) a 3d game engine called Soya3d to Mac and also Petri in 
our team knows something about Mac app development. We just haven't had 
time to address that at all now, and have quite a lot to do in the 
coming weeks and months too so may well not get to address it soon. So 
if there's anyone out there who can give a shot, please do so, and try 
to help. In my experience things are quite normal there from a Posix 
perspective, normal gcc, normal versions of libs like libfreetype and 
openjpeg and friends, available both via the version of bsdports called 
darwinports and the port of debian called fink. And there's a prebuilt 
SDK for Ogre. I suppose qt is somehow readily available too. Sachamange 
was installing Naali deps and trying to get started with running cmake 
in may/june, perhaps he can tell how far got.

~Toni

> Cheers,
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 3:23 PM, Kripken  wrote:
>   
>> Oh, ok, I think I see the misunderstanding now. What happened from my
>> perspective was this:
>>
>> 1. I saw there was a 0.0.2 release, so I looked for Linux binaries. Couldn't
>> find any, so I asked on IRC what the status of Linux support is.
>> 2. Responses implied there were some problems. One response was 'something
>> with Cg perhaps'.
>> 3. So I posted on the mailing list to ask what the status of Linux is, and
>> also whether Cg is used or not.
>>
>> Sorry if I wasn't being clear earlier.
>>
>> - kripken
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Ryan McDougall  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Kripken  wrote:
>>>   
 On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Ryan McDougall 
 wrote:
 
> What's almost as helpful as a patch is a bug report. Were you able to
> file
> one?
>
>   
 I can file a generic "Would be nice to have reX run on Linux" bug, would
 that be appropriate?
 
>>> Heh, not really. :)
>>>
>>> It's hard for me to see what lead you to believe Cg was causing your
>>> problems, as I've never had that issue, so clearly something is new
>>> there. We have done nothing with Cg, so I'm at a loss to explain why
>>> it's become an issue for you.
>>>
>>>   
>>> Nearest I can tell y

[realXtend] Re: question on Naali -> Standalone OpenSim

[Toni Alatalo]

Paul Fishwick kirjoitti:
> Test User   (first and last separated by a space)
> the-password
> http://..the domain name:9000
>   

I've usually entered the opensim server login without the trailing 
http://, e.g. just osgrid.org:8002 - might not be your prob though if 
you do get traffic to the server.

> 14:45:11 - [LOGIN]: Authenticating Test User$
> 14:45:11 - [LOGIN END]: XMLRPC User Test User failed password authentication
>   

Don't know what else that could be than a somehow wrong password, 
haven't heard of version probs or anything like that in authentications :/

~Toni

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http://www.realxtend.org
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Re: [realXtend] no textures in Naali -> OpenSim

[Toni Alatalo]

Paul Fishwick kirjoitti:
>> now and you wont have to do that on the next release. Is it a content 
>> heavy server? 
>> 
> I have only one client to the server (the Naali 0.0.2 client and opensim
> server are running on the same machine), and the machine is fast (8
>   

I've seen textures ok in Naali from both ScienceSim and OSGrid Wright 
Plaza (which is a very heavy place) earlier, never had probs in June and 
August etc.

> The version of opensim is as of last night; however, I had the same
> problems (no textures downloaded)  a few weeks ago when I tried it
> on that release.
>   

First I heard of this prob was when Lasse was saying that current 
opensim trunk doesn't serve textures for Naali, last week.

My bet is that it's due to the optimizations done to OpenSim networking 
recently (has it been 6 weeks or so now with that craze?), as that work 
has been tested with LL based viewers only. Hopefully now too tricky to 
hunt down.

> -p
>   

~Toni

>> Best regards,
>> Jonne Nauha
>> realXtend developer
>>
>> http://www.realxtend.org/
>> http://www.evocativi.com/
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Paul Fishwick > > wrote:
>>
>> Ryan
>>  I am using Windows 7 (64 bit) and run-as-administrator otherwise,
>> Naali
>> will not start up.
>> _p
>>
>> Ryan McDougall wrote:
>> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Paul Fishwick
>> mailto:fishw...@cise.ufl.edu>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Has anyone gotten a regular opensim world to load up in the
>> Naali 0.0.2
>> >> viewer?
>> >> When I load a world that has many textures, none of them show.
>> I see the
>> >> geometry
>> >> but it is all flat-shaded with a grey color, except for Jack (the
>> >> avatar) which is correctly
>> >> colored.
>> >> -p
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > Paul,
>> >
>> > What Operating System are you using?
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul Fishwick, PhD
>> Professor
>> University of Florida
>> CISE Department, CSE 301
>> Gainesville, FL 32611
>> Email: fishw...@cise.ufl.edu 
>> Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>> 
>>
>> --
>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> http://www.realxtend.org
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> http://www.realxtend.org 
>> 
>
>
>   

-- 
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Re: [realXtend] Setting up taiga on Linux ubuntu server.

[Toni Alatalo]

sal kirjoitti:
> Some friends pointed me to the very interesting taiga server which
> should be able to use a completely new and effective model for
> authentication.
>   

Yes, openid seems to be working nicely - and the good thing is that it 
is not totally new, but a normal kind of standard thing that is already 
used on the web :) .. but yes quite new in the OpenSim land.

Taiga gets it from the Cable Beach system / project.

> However it is quite unclear the procedure (and IF) for making it
> working under Linux (Ubuntu for instance).
>   

One guy in our team was looking into that earlier this week. I don't 
recall exactly to which point he got, he's getting a copy of this so can 
perhaps info more. We'll be testing server side stuff tomorrow with him 
so perhaps can take a look again. We are also using Ubuntu.

> We started to install it from modrex source and partially succeeded in
> doing this, but got some problems so this is why I'm asking if there
> is a well established and clean way for installing it without much
> hassle :)
>   

ModRex I think people are using on linux and it's just a normal OpenSim 
module. Cable Beach and the other things in Taiga like the openid 
provider it ships with are all c# and I guess work on mono.

> This might be quite interesting: I wanted to build up a grid in Italy
> to show how opensim can be used professionally by teachers educators
> and others to develop high quality meshing architecture showrooms and
> live 3D worlds (maybe to put in parallel to already established
> Cyberlandia grid).
>   

If you want vanilla opensim with openid authentication (cable beach 
stuff), it might be possible to use the ScienceSim OpenSim distribution, 
'cause they use Cable Beach as well (it comes from them) and I think 
package it there in some kind of releases for sim hosters to use.

Taiga is basically the same(?) but also with ModRex and additional thing 
like webdav inventory.

> Salahzar Stenvaag
>   

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] samplemediaurl.py script error

[Toni Alatalo]

Mikko Pallari kirjoitti:
> it seems that there is a bug in that script. In class MediaUrlPrim in 
> function EventCreated when using method rexSetTextureMediaURL it 
> requires also a second argument. This argument is the refresh rate.

I think this has changed at some point - iirc when I originally wrote 
that method it only took the URL. Refreshrate is of course very useful 
but seems like something that would be nice as an optional argument with 
a default value (defaulting to no refresh for static pages). Having 
optional args with default values in py is nice, e.g.: def 
setTextureMediaURL(url, refresh=False).

> Mikko

~Toni

> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 5:21 PM, pedro  > wrote:
>
> Hi all
>
> when i use the samplemediaurl.py script from the tutorial pages in
> taiga 0.0.2 with viewer 0.42
> i get the following error in the opensim console
>
> Region (MyTestRegion02) # HandleEvent_TouchStart exceptions.TypeError
> rexSetTextureMediaURL() takes
> exactly 3 arguments (2 given) 
>
> the script i used was:
>
> import rxactor
> import rxavatar
> import sys
> import clr
>
> asm = clr.LoadAssemblyByName('OpenSim.Region.ScriptEngine.Shared')
> Vector3 = asm.OpenSim.Region.ScriptEngine.Shared.LSL_Types.Vector3
>
> class MediaUrlPrim(rxactor.Actor):
>def GetScriptClassName():
>return "samplemediaurl.MediaUrlPrim"
>
>def EventCreated(self):
>super(self.__class__,self).EventCreated()
>print "samplemediaurl.MediaUrl"
>self.rexSetTextureMediaURL(self.rexGetPrimFreeData())
>
>def SetNewMediaUrl(self,newurl):
>self.rexSetTextureMediaURL(newurl)
>
>
> class MediaUrlChanger(rxactor.Actor):
>def GetScriptClassName():
>return "samplemediaurl.MediaUrlChanger"
>
>def EventCreated(self):
>super(self.__class__,self).EventCreated()
>print "samplemediaurl.MediaUrlChanger"
>self.MyMediaUrlPrim = None
>self.MyMediaUrl = ""
>self.RefreshData()
>
>def EventTouch(self,vAvatar):
>self.RefreshData()
>
>if(self.MyMediaUrlPrim != None):
>self.MyMediaUrlPrim.SetNewMediaUrl(self.MyMediaUrl)
>else:
>print "Target prim for mediaurl change not found"
>
>
>def RefreshData(self):
>myfreedata = self.rexGetPrimFreeData()
>paramlistlines = myfreedata.splitlines()
>
>templocalid = self.GetPrimLocalIdFromUUID(paramlistlines[0])
>self.MyMediaUrlPrim = self.MyWorld.GetActorByLocalID(str
> (templocalid))
>self.MyMediaUrl = paramlistlines[1]
>
> Another thing i noticed - the UUID of the MediaUrlPrim changes every
> time i log in again
> but even changing that entry in the Data tab i get the same error
> message as above
>
> Next Question that came up - is there a limit for the parameters in
> the Data tab ?
>
> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org
>
>
> -- 
> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
> http://www.realxtend.org 

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] samplemediaurl.py script error

[Toni Alatalo]

Toni Alatalo kirjoitti:
> optional args with default values in py is nice, e.g.: def 
> setTextureMediaURL(url, refresh=False).
>   

eh, the impl of that in modrex is in c# though, so i guess allowing both 
ways to call would be with an overload.

> ~Toni
>   

same.

>> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 5:21 PM, pedro > <mailto:psteinlech...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> when i use the samplemediaurl.py script from the tutorial pages in
>> taiga 0.0.2 with viewer 0.42
>> i get the following error in the opensim console
>>
>> Region (MyTestRegion02) # HandleEvent_TouchStart exceptions.TypeError
>> rexSetTextureMediaURL() takes
>> exactly 3 arguments (2 given) 
>>
>> the script i used was:
>>
>> import rxactor
>> import rxavatar
>> import sys
>> import clr
>>
>> asm = clr.LoadAssemblyByName('OpenSim.Region.ScriptEngine.Shared')
>> Vector3 = asm.OpenSim.Region.ScriptEngine.Shared.LSL_Types.Vector3
>>
>> class MediaUrlPrim(rxactor.Actor):
>>def GetScriptClassName():
>>return "samplemediaurl.MediaUrlPrim"
>>
>>def EventCreated(self):
>>super(self.__class__,self).EventCreated()
>>print "samplemediaurl.MediaUrl"
>>self.rexSetTextureMediaURL(self.rexGetPrimFreeData())
>>
>>def SetNewMediaUrl(self,newurl):
>>self.rexSetTextureMediaURL(newurl)
>>
>>
>> class MediaUrlChanger(rxactor.Actor):
>>def GetScriptClassName():
>>return "samplemediaurl.MediaUrlChanger"
>>
>>def EventCreated(self):
>>super(self.__class__,self).EventCreated()
>>print "samplemediaurl.MediaUrlChanger"
>>self.MyMediaUrlPrim = None
>>self.MyMediaUrl = ""
>>self.RefreshData()
>>
>>def EventTouch(self,vAvatar):
>>self.RefreshData()
>>
>>if(self.MyMediaUrlPrim != None):
>>self.MyMediaUrlPrim.SetNewMediaUrl(self.MyMediaUrl)
>>else:
>>print "Target prim for mediaurl change not found"
>>
>>
>>def RefreshData(self):
>>myfreedata = self.rexGetPrimFreeData()
>>paramlistlines = myfreedata.splitlines()
>>
>>templocalid = self.GetPrimLocalIdFromUUID(paramlistlines[0])
>>self.MyMediaUrlPrim = self.MyWorld.GetActorByLocalID(str
>> (templocalid))
>>self.MyMediaUrl = paramlistlines[1]
>>
>> Another thing i noticed - the UUID of the MediaUrlPrim changes every
>> time i log in again
>> but even changing that entry in the Data tab i get the same error
>> message as above
>>
>> Next Question that came up - is there a limit for the parameters in
>> the Data tab ?
>>
>> --
>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> http://www.realxtend.org
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> http://www.realxtend.org 
>> 
>
>   

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

[realXtend] Re: [realXtend-dev] Moving naali svn

[Toni Alatalo]

Mikko Pallari kirjoitti:
> As was discussed earlier, we are moving our viewer svn from 
> dev.realxtend.org  to google code project. 
> New location of the source will be at 
> http://code.google.com/p/realxtend-naali/

Not all of the discussions have been on the mailing lists so to clarify 
a bit: we're not happy with the hosting that have (and pay for) for 
dev.realxtend.org, which should be working now till 25th but that is to 
be cut off then, so we need to have the code somewhere else. We are 
happy to use any normal reliable public place like open source projects 
usually (given the latency and thruput to our remote location here at 
the edge of the known world from there is ok too).

However, we haven't decided yet what to use for version control and 
ticket/milestones etc. We demoed what have done this year yesterday, and 
were lucky to be able to work without interruptions to complete features 
and fix bugs using the old server till that. But we haven't had time to 
evaluate hosting options and version control systems.

There is some time for research and to organize future work etc. in 
early January when work continues at full steam, then we'll decide what 
to use for code hosting and related services. Current candidates and 
arguments for/against them include:

* google code, using svn or hg
 + simplicity (of the layout)

* github
 + git support :) .. i've no clue what it is even otherwise, have just 
pulled from there sometimes.

* assembla
 + has it all: svn, hg(?), git
 + own stuff for all kinds of project stuff (and a nice rest api that 
would help in rex integration, i.e. to have worlds show project state etc)
 + trac
 - possibly bloated ui, we don't know yet whether there is a way to 
config it to something simple and nice (perhaps it is when use use trac?)

* anything else that works and is good, no one here really cares that 
much as long as it serves. from seeing how the ipython project uses 
launchpad and bzr that has seemed good too.

Opinions, recommendations and hints are welcome - I'll probably take 
some time to test things (like git and hg - perhaps make a patch to 
opensim using git, and a patch to circuits (the component system in 
Naali for py plugins) using mercurial which it uses) in early Jan .. am 
afraid that will be overwhelmed with other things too so hopefully 
someone else has better changes to focus on these things then.

Oh thanks a bunch Mikko for taking care that our code is at least 
somewhere! (and release bundles)

> Mikko Pallari

running around for xmas things,
~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Showroom for imported 3D meshes in Realxtend

[Toni Alatalo]

Laurent Rathle kirjoitti:
> I've seen the it is possible to import directly meshes from 3D programs like 
> Blender in Realxtend or Modrex grids. Are they places (grids) where I can see 
> the result of such an importation ? Some documentation ? Is it only with 
> Realxtend or is this working with the modrex module for Opensim ?
>   

One way to see that in action is to download the latest production 
server release (0.5) from www.realxtend.org with the Beneath the waves 
demo included, and run that as a local standalone to see meshes.

Otherwise at least the Virtualexpo.fi world is public and always open, 
http://www.realxtend.org/page.php?pg=news&s=20090929 


To upload your own meshes, you need to export them to the Ogre mesh 
format and then use the file upload command in the viewer File menu to 
upload the .mesh file. Then it ends up in your inventory, and you can 
use the object editing gui to assign it to an pre-existing object in the 
scene (for example you can create a new cube prim and then make it use 
that mesh for geom instead). For full scenes we now also support the 
.scene format some use with Ogre, there are exporters for that for 
Blender, Max and Maya etc. too, 
http://realxtend.blogspot.com/2009/12/tutorial-to-import-scene-from-blender.html

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Showroom for imported 3D meshes in Realxtend

[Toni Alatalo]

Laurent Rathle kirjoitti:
> documentation ? Is it only with Realxtend or is this working with the modrex 
> module for Opensim ?
>   

Oh and forgot to mention: modrex for Opensim *is* what the Realxtend 
server now is (since 0.5 release in June 2009), there is no other 
Realxtend server otherwise. So yes it works with normal Opensim, but you 
(obviously) need a viewer with mesh support.

> Thank you
>   

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] ModRex and OS

[Toni Alatalo]

Merrie Schonbach kirjoitti:

Is ModRex made up of the newer Naali and Taiga?


ModRex is an Opensim module that gives you the basic ReX features: Ogre 
mesh, material, particle etc support, rexscripting etc.


Taiga is a set of interoperating servers, one of which is 
Opensim+ModRex, and then also the Cable Beach things for openid 
authentication etc. So no, what you say is not true, but the opposite 
is: ModRex is a part of Taiga, but you can also use ModRex without the 
other things in Taiga (and just use e.g. opensim authentication and 
inventory)


Naali is the new viewer. Currently both the old rexviewer (fork of 
slviewer) and the new Naali work against Opensim+Modrex, but new 
features in Taiga like openid auth and webdav inv. are implemented in 
Naali only.


Hopefully this clarified the situation - we should update e.g. this wiki 
page to be more clear about this, 
http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Main_Page


cheers,
~Toni
-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: Need help on connecting to my RealXTend server.

[Toni Alatalo]

akaydin kirjoitti:

Do you know how I can contact Mikko Pallari? Perhaps an e-mail adress
or something like that? He seems to know a lot about this issue.
  


He reads this list too.


Also I could not find the source code of the application at:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/realxtendserver/
  


It is there, you need to go to the dev section, 
http://sourceforge.net/projects/realxtendserver/develop .. that has the 
svn url and also a link to the web browsing view to the source, e.g. 
http://realxtendserver.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/realxtendserver/authentication/trunk/



I have already checked-out source code of the latest version of
OpenSim and Modrex Modules however these dont include the source code
for the authentication server...
  


Yep it is a separate app, not part of modrex.


Ateş Akaydın
  


~Toni


On 7 Ocak, 09:35, Ryan McDougall  wrote:
  

The source can be found here:http://sourceforge.net/projects/realxtendserver/

I seem to recall a discussion about this issue before. Perhaps you can
look at the mailing list archives for an answer. Unfortunately, 0.5
isn't being actively worked on any more, as we are focusing on Naali
and 
Taiga:http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Main_Page#Developer_Preview_Releases

Cheers,

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 6:28 PM, akaydin  wrote:


Ryan thanks a lot for your answer.
  
Unfortunately testu...@192.168.0.2 does not work from outside network.

Nothing happens if I use internal ip here(192.168.0.2) however if I
use WAN IP then I can connect to the authentication server(from what I
see on authentication server console) but login operation fails. And
if I can connect to the authentication server(althought login
operation fails) then I believe that should mean that the WAN ip
resolves correctly and redirected through my NAT.
  
I may be wrong but it seems like" testuser@" is also sent as a

complete string in some part of an xml message to the authentication
server. I believe only the left part before "@" sign - that is
"testuser" - and user password should be enough to authenticate a user
(considering that ip adress is already resolved).
  
It seems to me that Authentication server simply checks if

"testuser@" matches with a string that it forms from local
ip... like "testu...@192.168.0.2" and boom! these two dont match
so login fails...
  
Internal ip stays the same for all pcs connected to a particular LAN.

So no problems occur if I try to connect from a seperate pc which is
in the same LAN with my server since username and host strings will
always match. (actually this is what I have been doing till now).
  
These are all my assumptions though. I may be wrong but I believe

something like this is the primary reason of this problem.
  
Can I download authentication server's source code from somewhere?

perhaps I can try to fix this in source code... I have checked modrex
site but couldn't find an svn link particularly for authentication and
avatar storage servers.
  
Perhaps you are right though. I only have basic knowledge of

networking so there may be a way of configuring the network so that
this problem is fixed.
  
Is there a tutorial on how to do such a network configuration? Or is

there anyone who successfully deployed a RealXTend server which
operates on net standalone? Preferably someone who did it with DSL
connection(and in my case also dynamic ip :D)
  
I would be happy to hear from you all...
  
And Ryan Thanks again for your answer,
  
Regards,
  
Ates Akaydin
  
On 6 Ocak, 16:44, Ryan McDougall  wrote:
  

Once again, this is before my time, and I've never once worked on the
authentication servers, but afaik, this was a fundamental choice to
mimick the way e-mail works. You can't just send an email to "joe", it
has to be "joe" at "example.com", where example.com is a computer that
knows a certain joe among many. It works because there is an entry in
the DNS server that says the mail server that's authoritative for
example.com, and mail clients do a DNS query to find the IP. A number
of people here have set up reX for the public (such as
world.evocativi.com), so it *is* possible -- but you may need DNS
and/or public IPs...

So basically, I think this an internal network configuration issue,

and kinda beyond what we're capable of helping you with. Network
configuration is not easy, and present a barrier to adoption of VW
servers (actually any non-trivial home server). Does
"testu...@192.168.0.2" work from outside the network?

If anyone knows better than me, feel free to correct me. Better a

half-assed answer than none.

Cheers,

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 10:16 AM, akaydin  wrote:


Is there a way to configure authentication server such that it
neglects IP attached to user name during authentication process. And
authenticate solely on username and password instead. Nothing else?
  
On 6 Ocak, 10:12, akaydin  wrote:
  

Hi aga

Re: [realXtend] Python Scripting w/o Server Access?

[Toni Alatalo]

Andress Renall kirjoitti:

Has there been a web based interface or other means to allow a user to
upload their python scripts without having access to the server?
  


I am not aware of such a thing, haven't heard of anyone having the need 
earlier.



For example Im being hosted and will not have access to the server, so
the questions we were asking are: How will we upload our phython
scripts? What about live debugging, how is that handled?
  


What do you mean with live debugging, getting the console output I guess?

As I guess you know from looking at it in a local server installation, 
the current rexscript system works so that they are just files on the 
server disk - kind of like region modules installed in that opensim. 
They can do anything on that computer, so editing them is to be trusted 
only for users who the admin trusts to do anything there (again 
similarily to other opensim region modules you would install).


In fact I think you could even write a web server that provides a web ui 
to manage the installed rexscripts on that opensim server as a 
rexscript. Quite simple I guess, at least just basic tools to 
download/upload and perhaps edit the files there. And a button for the 
restart command, which you can probably call from a rexscript too 'cause 
afaik you can call any opensim code there.


Another option would be adding this to some of the existing web admin 
interfaces to opensim, dunno if any of those have anything for 
installing region modules or uploading OAR files or some other remote 
file management stuff already.


The console output for debugging I'm not sure about, perhaps opensim 
already writes to a log which you could show via the web too?



We are putting in a RealXtend region into OS Grid.
  


Yay!

If you want to write such a management thing, we are happy to help and 
might well want to use it too :)


~Toni
-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Linux build issues on Naali

[Toni Alatalo]

Kazzy Lumiere kirjoitti:

BTW: we have separate realxtend-dev both as a mailing list and on irc 
for development talk, I'm ccing this to the -dev list 'cause iirc the 
guy who has set the linux buildbot that builds the comms module too is 
not on the users list. I think it would be a good idea to continue this 
talk on the -dev side, to not bother the users who couldn't care less 
about stuff like compiling :)



I attempted to build Naali on Arch with GCC 4.4. Everything seems to
go fine for a while, until I hit the communications module containing
TelepathyIM.
  


Like said on irc now (we are on different timezones it seems), it's an 
optional module so you can first try without (comment it out in the 
cmake file for optional modules).


That said, our Naali Linux build slave builds with the comms module (and 
all other trunk defaults) enabled and succeeds, 
http://playsign.fi:8010/buildslaves/linuxbuildslave



http://pastie.org/777253
Is there some step that I missed? It appears all the headers are
there. Do I need to build a very specific version of telepathy/
telepathy-dbus/telepathy-glib/etc?
  


Erno who set up the linux buildslave can probably tell you later today 
what he used. I only remember it was not trivial to know what versions 
to use, and quite possibly he is using what we have in the dependencies 
source svn (naali-deps on google code).


BTW did you already use Qt 4.6? I guess not .. we basically switched to 
that yesterday, but the trunk doesn't depend on it yet. Tomorrow it 
probably will, 'cause the input refactor that switches away from OIS to 
Qt as the default input system for mouse & keys for the whole app - 
fixing actually a Linux issue where OIS and Qt input handling didn't 
co-operate - is merged from a branch (which has actually been devved on 
Linux mostly) .. it now seems that how we use qt works in 4.6 on win as 
well (apart from an issue on win7) so we can merge. So this new input 
stuff, hopefully in trunk starting today (in a few hours), depends on 4.6.


Thanks for the interest!

~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Change of Plans ModRex

[Toni Alatalo]

Andress Renall kirjoitti:

My host (SimHost) is looking into setting up a web based 'admin'
section so we can upload our Python scripts without being in the
server console which I do not have access to. Just thought I would
keep the list up to date as this is an important issue.
  


Thanks for the update. If you want to open source the thing, I think we 
want something like that to be a part of the reX toolset, and like said 
earlier am looking forward to using that myself :)


If you get that done otherwise, it would be good for it to include a 
button for the 'python reset' console command, which you can use to 
refresh the codes being executed without restarting the whole sim. 
Perhaps even some web based py editing gui to allow doing quick changes 
directly on the server :o


Do ask when there are any questions about this.

cheers,
~Toni

-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] 3D Model Material Mapping

[Toni Alatalo]

Merrie Schonbach kirjoitti:
Once you import your model into the world how do you get your 
materials to map correctly on your model?
My textures are coming in but all over the place on the model, not in 
the proper place.


I suppose you are having them correctly in whatever app you modelled 
them? Do you have material indices / submeshes / whatever they are 
called in your app there, so that the model uses several materials? I 
suppose so 'cause you talk about several textures.


I think you should use the material assignment gui to put the right 
material to the right slot in the model. Step 12 in this tutorial, 
http://peterquirk.wordpress.com/2008/12/22/tutorial-using-the-streamlined-tool-chain-for-importing-sketchup-models-into-realxtend-04/ 
- has an image of what I'm talking about, this one: 
http://peterquirk.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/material-panel.png


Coincidentally we were adding a ui for that same thing to the new Naali 
viewer today :)



Does that involve having to use that exterial viewer?


No the mesh tool is not required to set materials to right places.


Thanks!


Let's thank Peter for that nice tutorial!
Hopefully things work out for you now.

~Toni
-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Naali 0.1 released

[Toni Alatalo]

Paul Fishwick kirjoitti:

the package was downloaded, then I run the viewer.exe as administrator,
the package crashes with "viewer.exe has stopped working". It does


It seemed that it installs over a pre-existing installation directory so 
that also the old libraries are preserved - if you could try installing 
to another directory or removing the old install before installing this, 
it might help.



-p


~Toni


Antti Ilomäki wrote:
As the version number suggests it's not a finished product, but the 
programmers have been busy and managed to produce some pretty 
impressive stuff. This version a complete replacement for the 
previous generation technology, but from now on we will be offering 
Naali as an alternative for the more adventurous users. Judging by 
the recent pace in development, it won't be long until the earlier 
viewer versions can be completely replaced by the new and shiny stuff.


http://realxtend.blogspot.com/2010/01/naali-01-released.html





-- 
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org

Re: [realXtend] Re: Naali 0.1 released

[Toni Alatalo]

pedro kirjoitti:

I found Naali-0.1_alpha2.exe and Naali-0.1_alpha3.exe
and tried to use them - but coudnt get further then the loginscreen
which was somehow like locked. I couldnt enter anything in the boxes,
  


Did you install them to a clean directory? I think there is a problem 
that if you install them on top of alpha1 or older releases like 0.0.1 
or 0.0.2 it doesn't remove the old modules that were there, and the 
previous ways which we used for input might be interfering (at least if 
you have installs from alpha1 and alpha2-3 mixed). I think this is why 
alpha3 now suggest a dir named naali0.1.alpha3.


I installed and run alpha3 on a winxp now and it works. There is a known 
bug that when doing web login it may freeze if your box has also the qt 
sdk installed (loads some wrong dll from somewhere, we haven't found out 
yet what exactly happens), but the opensim and rex auths and the tabs to 
choose the login type etc. should always work.


~Toni


On Jan 22, 4:28 pm, pedro  wrote:
  

That sounds awsome - looking forward to give it a try as soon as it
gets out :-)

On Jan 19, 8:31 am, Ryan McDougall  wrote:



I hit send to soon...
  
This will be the first of 0.x series of releases. The 0.0.x series we

were a little cautious of outside usage and testing because we knew
just how rough the code was, and didn't want people slagging us too
soon. However starting with 0.1 at the end of this month, we're hoping
that people really start using Naali and Taiga, and begin giving
feedback and constructive criticism; and even become involved in the
community as developers, documenters, and testers, and this is where
the rebooted realXtend really takes off.
  
Cheers,
  
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 9:26 AM, Ryan McDougall  wrote:
  

I would also like to point out this is 0.1 *alpha* release, or a 0.1
"release candidate". This release was required for internal reasons.

We are hoping to have a proper 0.1 release at the end of January,

hopefully with an updated Taiga 0.1.

Cheers,

2010/1/18 Antti Ilomäki :


As the version number suggests it's not a finished product, but the
programmers have been busy and managed to produce some pretty impressive
stuff. This version a complete replacement for the previous generation
technology, but from now on we will be offering Naali as an alternative for
the more adventurous users. Judging by the recent pace in development, it
won't be long until the earlier viewer versions can be completely replaced
by the new and shiny stuff.
  
http://realxtend.blogspot.com/2010/01/naali-01-released.html
  
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Re: [realXtend] Realxtend/taiga server grid mode perspective for large projects?

[Toni Alatalo]

Antti Ilomäki kirjoitti:
I wonder if you noticed Lasse's post on the realXtend-dev list? He has 
been researching grid mode and has a fairly good idea on what it would 
take to have grid mode working. Mikko Pallari also knows a lot about 
the server side.


Note though that the post there was about client side work for the new 
viewer, Naali - whereas here I understood the question was more about 
server side.


At least in this experiment modrex worked in grid mode enough so that a 
rex region could be added to OSGrid, 
http://www.cybertechnews.org/?p=2147 . Note that many of the issues 
discussed in that article are about grids where you have vanilla opensim 
and rex mixed, those probs afaik don't exist when using a rex only grid.


That said, we haven't used grid mode much at all with the dev companies 
here, haven't had the need really yet (teleporting from a server to 
another doesn't seem that bad often, though certainly the seamless 
crossings in grids are nice and something we want eventually too).


~Toni


2010/2/1 Denis Tarasov mailto:dtaras...@gmail.com>>

Dear All,

We have an idea of developing university-based 3D educational/science
portal using realxtend technology. We have done extensive testing on
standalone configuration and found that  current feature set and
stability is more or less adequate for our purposes.

However we afraid that this solution would not scale up to many users
in the future. Is it true that nor realxtend 0.5 nor taiga server set
is not capable of running in grid mode? If yes, is there any
perspectives for getting this feature working?

Could we help developing grid mode and other essential features? We
can't provide any funds for the moment, but we have large server
facility that we can provide for developers for testing purposes, we
can run stress-tests with many users connecting simultaneously.

Best regards,
Denis Tarasov
Joint Supercomputer Center, Kazan Branch,
Russian Federation

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Re: [realXtend] Problems logging with Naali

[Toni Alatalo]

Gustavo Alberto Navarro Bilbao kirjoitti:
Strange,but I haven't any problem to get a fast conexion to our Taiga 
service, using RX 4.2, but trying to use Naali 1.0, "connection to 
region stop at the 99%" and rest frozen.


Please, note that it is 0.1 and not 1.0 :)

And thanks a lot for testing, everyone, we need this to make it work 
everywhere. And apologies for you getting stuck there, it is a stupid 
lack in the UI that there is no cancel button for failed logins - we'll 
add that soon (the login ui is now revised anyway).


Could you please submit the Naali log from such a failed login attempt? 
And perhaps observe what is happening in the Taiga server consoles (I 
think the worldserver for auth and the opensim for getting to the actual 
region are relevant here). The Naali log on windows goes to the user's 
home directory in My Documents\realXtend. If you can't find it, you can 
also press f1 in Naali itself to see the console output and perhaps 
copy-paste from there.


A good place to submit logs and crashdumps is the issue tracker at 
http://code.google.com/p/realxtend-naali/issues/list



I can acces to the demo worlds, without problem.


Sounds like would be just some port config prob or something, but is 
strange 'cause the login and protocol with both rexviewer and naali is 
basically the same.



Alberto


~Toni


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Re: [realXtend] Re: Naali 0.1 released

[Toni Alatalo]

pedro kirjoitti:

the mouseovers on the bottom images work before i click, then it freezes
graphics card is an nvidia quadro FX1600
i also got a crash dump if it would be of use to anyone
  


Are you using 0.1 rc1 or rc2? (rc standing for release candidate - no 
new features but testing & bugfixing)


This sounds like the bug that quite many were having with rc1, but which 
as far as we know was fixed in rc2.


If this happens to you with rc2, it would be very much appreciated to 
get that crash dump - i guess submitting to there works: 
http://code.google.com/p/realxtend-naali/issues/list .. we should 
somehow add a label for exact versions there.


~Toni


On Feb 6, 7:48 am, pedro  wrote:
  

I just downloaded RC2, but it still has the same behaviour, meaning
that the login screen completly freezes on startup and i cant enter
any account
infos nor change login options.

Are there maybe any firewall or antivirus settings that could be
blocking ?

Im using Win XP Pro SP3 (32bit version) and latest fixes, Windows
firewall and Norton Antivirus

Any hints are greatly appreciated as i am curious to test out naali

On Jan 30, 5:51 pm, Ali Kämäräinen 
wrote:



The log message says: "The real fix to QWebView lockup: Direct3d consistent
floating point mode." I have no idea how Lasse came up with that. You'll
have to ask him.
  
Grey skies,

Ali
  


  


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