A little take on Rolling Stone's parlour game, for the Globe and Mail
in Toronto.
* * *
THE ESSENTIAL RECORDINGS OF THE '90s
by Greil Marcus et al
Rolling Stone, May 13
Reviewed by Carl Wilson
... In which Rolling Stone rushes to judgmen
>Do you know any black people who listen to the >Beasties? Do other rap
acts give them shout-outs on >record? They are making white music for
white
>people. Nothing wrong with that, but it ain't hip-hop.
As a matter of fact, in the latest edition of Rolling Stone, a rap
artist by the name of
Jerry said:
>I think perhaps, Cobain's voice spoiled the overall
>sound for me and that's why I gave the record such short shrift.
There's nothing wrong with not liking a recording because you don't like the
vocals...maybe that statement needs to be repeated If the voice or the
vocal stylings
The local hip-hop promoter is a buddy of mine. He has lectured me over
chronic many times about the difference between rap and hip-hop. As far as
I can remember hip-hop is a cultural movement (analogous to rock and roll
in the fifties) while rap is simply a form of music. The primary elements
o
> << I do think Neal has a pretty valid point about how powerful the
> Beasties' influence has been in breaking various elements of hip-hop
culture
> into the white middle-class, their whole Grand Royal label-'zine-clothing
> mini-empire is pretty good testament to that. But I'd
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 22-Apr-99 Re: Artist of the
Decade/si.. by JP [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Before y'all kill me on anecdotal evidence charges, realize that I'm trying
> to illustrate that the only people listening to Nirvana are critics and
> white folks bet
In a message dated 4/22/99 7:19:35 PM EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< I do think Neal has a pretty valid point about how powerful the
Beasties' influence has been in breaking various elements of hip-hop culture
into the white middle-class, their whole Grand Royal label-'zine-clothin
and just to really blow everyone's mind, please note that last month
Steve Earle earned his "GOLD" status for Guitar Town!! That came out in 1986
and has only sold 500,000 copies. What the heck is goin' on
Kate (happy to have contributed to the 500k)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> I wro
I have been thinking about this for a long time...it makes me crazy, but I
am gonna have to go with Jeff Tweedy on this one. 1/2 of the genius
behind Uncle Tupelo, prolific songwriter throughout the decade, I cant
think of a song I dont like...even the hokey ones are at the very least
clever and
JP wrote;
>The lineups for those silly concerts are filled with white altern-acts
>because those people are the Beasties social peers. If the band hung out
>with The Roots or Mystikal, don't you think that's who'd be playing the
>show?
Not to take issue with JP's main point about the Bea
I wrote:
> If we're talking about the decade, I don't know that Nirvana's sold more
> albums than Gill; the RIAA database is down right now, but I'll
> report back.
And though the database is still down (wake up over there!), on taking
another look at the best-sellers list, I see that Nirvana cl
Lance wrote:
>I guess one of the inherent problems with discussing the Beasties as rap
>artists is the amount of essentialism that must be chopped away before you
>can discuss the music they create.
Indeed, which is why I wish they qualified as AOTDs to more than a
small s
I love "Paul's Boutique" - in fact I might call it one of the more important
albums of the last quarter century, but artist of the decade? No way! Since
Paul's Boutique, it's really only been select moments of brilliance in my
opinion. In fact, I couldn't find a damn thing to like about the latest
>Do you know any black people who listen to the Beasties? Do other rap acts
>give them shout-outs on record? They are making white music for white
>people. Nothing wrong with that, but it ain't hip-hop.
>JP
Says Leyla Turkkan, former publicist for the Beasties: All the really
hardcore hip-hop
<< Do you know the difference between rap and hip-hop? >>
I don't. Enlighten me.
>>The Beasties have made a couple of great records. But they have more in
>>common with Pearl Jam than with any rap artist. You can make rap music and
>>still have no idea what hip-hop is. The Tibetan concerts are alterna fests
>>because that's the Beasties audience. They have zero influence
>The Beasties have made a couple of great records. But they have more in
>common with Pearl Jam than with any rap artist. You can make rap music and
>still have no idea what hip-hop is. The Tibetan concerts are alterna fests
>because that's the Beasties audience. They have zero influence o
Now that's an erudite summation. But I still can't get my head around
Cobain as artist of the decade. His creative achievement, though jarring
and influential, doesn't compare to that of the other serious contenders.
Besides, the eight year old who runs my house, his seventeen year old
babysitte
>As well, Nirvana combined quality and commercial success at an
>incomparable level for the decade - if The Key had sold like a Garth
>Brooks album, Jon W's assertion would hold up better, methinks.
If we're talking about the decade, I don't know that Nirvana's sold more
albums than Gill; the RIA
At 05:00 PM 4/22/99 -0400, Carl wrote:
>HOWEVER: Your question about whether
> Aretha rather than Joni was the key gender-revolutionary in sixties
> pop was already creeping into my head as I wrote that last post. I'd
> certainly *prefer* to say it was Aretha - but I wonder if
At 03:46 PM 4/22/99 -0500, JP wrote:
>Achtung Baby! is a deathly serious record. It's also their most literate
>and musical.
You know, in some ways this is probably right. I'd nominate either Achtung
or Joshua Tree as their best over all albums. But, as far as artist of the
90s goes, Achtung i
In a message dated 4/22/99 3:54:58 PM EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Oh yeah, Ray Davies claimed to have invented heavy metal, so... >>
nope. link wray did.
The discussion here breaks down along the atomization of markets since
the mid80s, so it makes sense to say that Gill, Dre, Malkmus (Pavement
does make sense as the key 90s indie band, though only because they
democratized Sonic Youth's late-80s innovations) and the Beasties
>>Unfortunately, I think we're gonna have to include Garth here.
>>
I don't
>think you get considered artist of the decade for your marketing skill
>alone.
As much as I don't like him, from a marketing vantage you just don't
sell that much of *anything* unless you've struck a chord or gul
>> In my dream Michael jackson grew up, maturing into a soulman a la Marvin
>> Gaye. No surgery, no wierdness.
>
>Er, ah, "a la Marvin Gaye" and "no weirdness" don't belong in the same
>paragraph.
>
Good point. but Marvin was more "troubled" than "weird". Still, I hope
you got my drift.
>JPRiedie writes: Achtung Baby. 1991>
>
>If anything, I think U2 has gotten less "mature" during the 90s. Like REM,
>they seem bent on making fun of themselves to less than hilarious effect.
>In the 80s, sure they were pretentious, but at least they were sincere. The
>period from "War" through
> In my dream Michael jackson grew up, maturing into a soulman a la Marvin
> Gaye. No surgery, no wierdness.
Er, ah, "a la Marvin Gaye" and "no weirdness" don't belong in the same
paragraph.
Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
JPRiedie writes:
If anything, I think U2 has gotten less "mature" during the 90s. Like REM,
they seem bent on making fun of themselves to less than hilarious effect.
In the 80s, sure they were pretentious, but at least they were sincere. The
period from "War" through "Rattle & Hum" remains the
At 03:08 PM 4/22/99 -0500, JP wrote in defense of Dre:
>With NWA he took rap music from party music to street poetry
>with a documentarian stance. Unlike Public Enemy he got his message across
>without being pedantic. This legitimized "gangsta" rap to the critical
>establishment AND opened the
>On the rap tip, The Sugar Hill Gang pretty much invented it, so
>
>
>Also, for the 90's The Beasties deserve a shout out...
>
>-JF
The Beasties have made a couple of great records. But they have more in
common with Pearl Jam than with any rap artist. You can make rap music and
still have n
On the rap tip, The Sugar Hill Gang pretty much invented it, so
Also, for the 90's The Beasties deserve a shout out...
-JF
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>Unfortunately, I think we're gonna have to include Garth here. Hie's
>touched alot of lives and his sales alone prove that. I think he's
>sold more records/discs than The Beatles or some unfathomable figure.
>
Let's see if those records are selling thirty years from now. I don't
think you get c
Unfortunately, I think we're gonna have to include Garth here. Hie's
touched alot of lives and his sales alone prove that. I think he's
sold more records/discs than The Beatles or some unfathomable figure.
As for most influential artist of all time you gotta include the
"gloved one"
In term
U2
>
>Their best and most influential work was all in the 80s, not the 90s.
>
Don't be silly. Their most mature and compelling work is Achtung Baby. 1991
Seriously -
It's Dr. Dre. With NWA he took rap music from party music to street poetry
with a documentarian stance. Unlike Public Enemy he got his message across
without being pedantic. This legitimized "gangsta" rap to the critical
establishment AND opened the door for hip-hop's dominance of
At 05:16 AM 4/22/99 -0500, JP dared us all to explain the artist of the
decade should NOT be one of the following:
>Perry Farrell (who commercialized the most interesting aspects of Nirvana's
>"revolution")
You mean, LEAST interesting, right?
>Dr. Dre
Well, I nominated him myself, so I ain't
Now, what about Spooner?
-michele
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 1999 12:27 PM
To: passenger side
Subject: RE: Artist of the Decade?
Jerry Curry writes:
Absolutely. Decent first album with a classic song in "Carr
<< I think perhaps, Cobain's voice spoiled the overall
sound for me and that's why I gave the record such short shrift. >>
Wow, I tend Cobain's voice *makes* the record. Someone once called him the
"human Marshall stack." I couldn't have put it any better. One of the best
rock voices to ever
Jerry Curry wrote:
> Always like Mr. Vig. Remember Fire Town anyone?
This should bring The Krueg out of hiding. Seems I remember
some stories about Tom snorting coke with Butch and Fire Town or
some such.
Dave
***
Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~
Jerry Curry writes:
Absolutely. Decent first album with a classic song in "Carry the Torch" and
a second album ("The Good Life") that's solid all the way through. Hey
maybe if the next Garbage album flops, we can look forward to a Fire Town
reunion!
--Slonedog
On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, David Cantwell wrote:
>
> Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. As someone who also appreciates big production, let
> this fellow traveler just reassure you that Nevermind, despite the culty
> punk expectations it carries, was...PRODUCED OUT THE ASS Anyone
David et al.
Thanks for th
At 10:28 PM 4/21/99 -0700, Jerry wrote:
>I found Nirvana to be way to raw and underproduced for my liking
Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. As someone who also appreciates big production, let
this fellow traveler just reassure you that Nevermind, despite the culty
punk expectations it carries, was...PRODUCED
Kurt Cobain by a country mile. There are very few things Rolling Stone gets
right but this is one of them.
--
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: "passenger side" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Artist of the Decade?
>Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999, 6:48 PM
>
>In
> You thought Vince Gill, right?
And still do.
Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:24:00 PDT Greg Harness
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I thought your candidate had already won and been declared AOTD months ago.
> This new little thread is nothing more than a post-mortem on a de facto
> decision, right? AOTD will retain his title.
Umm, I musta missed
Pushing aside the arbitrary (and silly) nature of this shellgame, tell me
why it shouldn't be:
Perry Farrell (who commercialized the most interesting aspects of Nirvana's
"revolution")
Dr. Dre (who made rap safe for white people; God bless Eminem)
U2 (who legitimized dance music for young subur
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jeff Weiss wrote:
> At 09:33 PM 4/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >BTW, I also happen to think Cobain was a pretty fabulous craftsman.
> >Jerry, wasn't he poppy enough for you?
> >
> Kurt never worked with Jeff Lynne and Jerry's bitter.
Holy Moley, I'm picturing the possibilities
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Carl Abraham Zimring wrote:
> BTW, I also happen to think Cobain was a pretty fabulous craftsman.
> Jerry, wasn't he poppy enough for you?
Naw Carl,
You'll have to visit with my evil pop counterpart, Bill silvers. He likes
his pop crunchy, I like it lush and overdubbed al
At 12:10 AM 4/22/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> Where's Weisberger to ask about criteria?
>
>Hey, I made my nomination during the Escovedo go-round, and I haven't seen
>any reason to rethink it - in fact, I've seen lots of reasons to confirm it.
>
>Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>h
>The artist of the decade is, of course, The Beastie Boys.
>Later...
>CK
I agree, and not just because I'm finishing up a paper on the Boys at this
very moment . As far as I'm concerned, the decade of the 1990's really
began with the release of Paul's Boutique, and nothing released since then
ha
> I thought your candidate had already won and been declared AOTD
> months ago.
I hope so, but I figure it's not official until it's on the cover of No
Depression.
Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
Jon Weisberger wrote:
> Hey, I made my nomination during the Escovedo go-round, and I haven't
seen
> any reason to rethink it - in fact, I've seen lots of reasons to confirm
it.
I thought your candidate had already won and been declared AOTD months ago.
This new little thread is nothing more tha
Hey there,
Slonedog...
><< What does everybody think of Rolling Stone's typically head up
>their ass selection of Kurt Cobain as Artist of the Decade? Try most
pathetic
>loser of the decade. The guy had nothing interesting to say musically or
>lyrically and then he blew his brains out. Any al
> Where's Weisberger to ask about criteria?
Hey, I made my nomination during the Escovedo go-round, and I haven't seen
any reason to rethink it - in fact, I've seen lots of reasons to confirm it.
Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
Where's Weisberger to ask about criteria?
If we don't care how long in the 90s an artist was actively recording in a
national arena (ie Cobain was active from 1990-1993), then I'd suggest
Gillian Welch for AOTD. If we are looking at ten years of performance, I
give you one name - Emmylou.
~Gre
At 09:33 PM 4/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>BTW, I also happen to think Cobain was a pretty fabulous craftsman.
>Jerry, wasn't he poppy enough for you?
>
Kurt never worked with Jeff Lynne and Jerry's bitter.
Jeff
Miles of Music mail order
http://www.milesofmusic.com
FREE printed Catalog: (818) 883-
Dittos to all the Cobain support. But, though I'd need to think much harder
about it, my gut reaction tells me the artist of the decade might just have
to be...Dr. Dre. --david cantwell
BTW, I also happen to think Cobain was a pretty fabulous craftsman.
Jerry, wasn't he poppy enough for you?
Carl Z.
NPIMH: "More Than a Feeling"...no wait, that's "Smells Like Teen Spirit"
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 21-Apr-99 Re: Artist of the
Decade? by Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> However, I think I would agree that he's the artist
> of the 1990's. He was extremely influential and
> basically defined alterna-rock and honed the
> entir
Wow...I disliked Curt Cobain's music and I
disliked Nirvana as well. _In Utero_ particulary grated on me.
However, I think I would agree that he's the artist
of the 1990's. He was extremely influential and
basically defined alterna-rock and honed the
entire grunge sound. Hell, on the ba
<< What does everybody think of Rolling Stone's typically head up their ass
selection of Kurt Cobain as Artist of the Decade? Try most pathetic loser
of the decade. The guy had nothing interesting to say musically or lyrically
and then he blew his brains out. Any alternative selections we P-2ers
In a message dated 4/21/99 3:00:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< What does everybody think of Rolling Stone's typically head up their ass
selection of Kurt Cobain as Artist of the Decade? Try most pathetic loser
of the decade. The guy had nothing interesting to say mu
Tarhut Jeff:
>Steve Malkmus.
Ooh, good one. I'm torn between Malkmus or Jay Farrar.
Steve Kirsch
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
np: Damnations TX
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Here, here, Don!
-Original Message-
From: Don Yates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: passenger side <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: Artist of the Decade?
>
>
>On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> What does ever
Steve Malkmus.
I see a thread developing here.
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What does everybody think of Rolling Stone's typically head up their ass
> selection of Kurt Cobain as Artist of the Decade?
Well, I'd take him over Alejandro Escovedo, that's for sure.--don
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