shoelaces
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~gasmith/knots/knots.html The old saying goes that: All I need to know I learned in kindergarten. Well, I certainly wish that somebody had told me about the proper way to tie my shoes back then! There is recent experimental evidence (but don't bother looking into any scientific journals for it) which suggests there is in fact a right and a wrong way to tie your shoes. The difference is subtle; the effect is not. Tie your shoes the right way and they will rarely come undone. Tie them the wrong way, and you will be frequently tripping over your shoelaces. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
David Hobby wrote: This is an action that I take only with GREAT reluctance. However, neither Julia nor I is willing to endure harassment of this kind. I imagine that you have collect a lot of interesting material for your study of internet communities and how they deal with a crisis. Or maybe not - probably the listmembers that would support Jeroen are silent, because this is not a conflict between common listmembers, but between a listmember and the list Overlord. Hey, you forgot the emoticons! : ( No, I didn't. I guess that I support Nick's action, anyway I gave up and killfiled Jeroen for keeps weeks ago. We keep kicking around ideas on easy ways to collectively deal with individuals who don't respect etiquette. But until we do come up with one that works, the listowner and overlord has to step in. I begin to understand why Jeroen was singled-out to be the victim-of-the-day. Some reasons are obvious: he *was* a listowner, so our meme of challenge authority took control. Others are subtle. And his behaviour in the past days, with mailbombing, lawsuits, and forged headers, make him a very tasty target! Who's better to be harassed as someone who screams and shouts? I guess by now everybody will be very pleased, seeing how he is reacting. I was right! He's not a member of a civilization! Let's ban him forever! Alberto Monteiro PS: I am _also_ a meme-stereotype. If everybody is against Jeroen, then I must stand to be the Defender of the Lost Cause :-) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
rain
Suppose you wanted to calculate the time it would take an even consistent rainfall over the entire surface of the earth to raise the sea level above the level of Mt. Everest (+5 miles or so), what would you need to know about rainfall, volume of the earth, topography of the earth, etc. to make a good first order approximation? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Admin: Server access blocked
Alberto Monteiro wrote: I begin to understand why Jeroen was singled-out to be the victim-of-the-day. Was he? Admittedly I have only been re-subbed here for a few months, I have not had much time to devote to Brin-L mail but I seem to have missed the singling-out. And his behaviour in the past days, with mailbombing, lawsuits, and forged headers, make him a very tasty target! Who's better to be harassed as someone who screams and shouts? Who is supposed to be harassing him? I guess by now everybody will be very pleased, seeing how he is reacting. I was right! He's not a member of a civilization! Let's ban him forever! But isn't that assuming that the rest of us are incapable of disapproving of the deeds without hating the doer? :) PS: I am _also_ a meme-stereotype. If everybody is against Jeroen, then I must stand to be the Defender of the Lost Cause :-) But isn't that assuming that his cause is lost? :) Ritu GCU A Veritable Graveyard Of Cats ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
My mother's aunt couldn't keep the house cool when my mom was living with her (and didn't listen to my mom's advice on handling it). She went away for a week, and the temperatures were higher that week than they'd been all summer, but when she got home, my mother had it cooler in the house than it had been in a couple of months. I think after that, my mom was put in charge of keeping the house cool until she moved out. :) Julia As I had said, I know what to do, but sometimes knowing and doing doesn't get the job done. The above is a perfect example. My brother stays here when he's working in the area, he has all kinds of advice for keeping the house cool. But who doesn't close their blinds in the morning, and leaves the windows wide open all day (even now in the winter)? There were plenty of days I'd have the house doing okay, cool enough, then there'd be a slip up or a few extra hot days and the whole system would fail. My niece was also staying here this summer, but she had no clue that if a door was closed there was a reason, blinds need to be pulled shut, how ACs work. (I had a broken AC in a closet downstairs, and a working one underneath a window. She didn't want the working AC put in at first because once it went in, it stayed in with a special bracket, no air movement in that window. It finally got too hot for her but instead of asking me to lift the AC into the window, she just turned it on where it sat on the floor; then carried the broken one upstairs and put it on top of the other one and wondered why she wasn't cool! This girl is in college?)(I was saving the broken AC for a friend taking HVAC classes, they work on old ACs otherwise I was throwing it out). Kevin T. 10.25 - 20.5 cm of snow today! I still have to go to work, as far as I know ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rain
For a first order approximation you would throw away topography as irrelevant (after all, it starts at only 30% and gets smaller as you add water) and you would treat the Earth as a proper sphere using distance from the center of the sphere to mean sea level as diameter. Assume a constant rainfall, not adujsted for the increasing size of the sphere as the ocean gets deeper. Say, 1 inch per hour, that's a nice hard rain so 2 feet a day. It'll take a while to reach 5 miles. However, if you say wanted to know if it would fit into, say 40 days and 40 nights, you would just assume that it rained 5 miles/40 days, that is 1mile/8days, or 1/8 mile per day. It would, indeed, require a miracle. However, the miracle needed to produce such a global deluge would pale beside the erosive effects of so much precipitation. Where *DID* all that topsoil come from? On Thursday 05 December 2002 04:01 am, The Fool wrote: Suppose you wanted to calculate the time it would take an even consistent rainfall over the entire surface of the earth to raise the sea level above the level of Mt. Everest (+5 miles or so), what would you need to know about rainfall, volume of the earth, topography of the earth, etc. to make a good first order approximation? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rain
From: Trent Shipley [EMAIL PROTECTED] For a first order approximation you would throw away topography as irrelevant (after all, it starts at only 30% and gets smaller as you add water) and you would treat the Earth as a proper sphere using distance from the center of the sphere to mean sea level as diameter. Assume a constant rainfall, not adujsted for the increasing size of the sphere as the ocean gets deeper. Say, 1 inch per hour, that's a nice hard rain so 2 feet a day. It'll take a while to reach 5 miles. However, if you say wanted to know if it would fit into, say 40 days and 40 nights, you would just assume that it rained 5 miles/40 days, that is 1mile/8days, or 1/8 mile per day. It would, indeed, require a miracle. However, the miracle needed to produce such a global deluge would pale beside the erosive effects of so much precipitation. Where *DID* all that topsoil come from? It would also boil the ocean from the friction of traveling through the atmosphere. I am not a believer in miracles. Suppose you wanted a precise scientifically exact approximation? On Thursday 05 December 2002 04:01 am, The Fool wrote: Suppose you wanted to calculate the time it would take an even consistent rainfall over the entire surface of the earth to raise the sea level above the level of Mt. Everest (+5 miles or so), what would you need to know about rainfall, volume of the earth, topography of the earth, etc. to make a good first order approximation? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Ritu Ko wrote: I begin to understand why Jeroen was singled-out to be the victim-of-the-day. Was he? Yes. And his behaviour in the past days, with mailbombing, lawsuits, and forged headers, make him a very tasty target! Who's better to be harassed as someone who screams and shouts? Who is supposed to be harassing him? If _every_ message he wrote was replied with mild offenses, this is a harassing. I guess by now everybody will be very pleased, seeing how he is reacting. I was right! He's not a member of a civilization! Let's ban him forever! But isn't that assuming that the rest of us are incapable of disapproving of the deeds without hating the doer? :) Yes. Which makes Me the only Saint in the list :-P PS: I am _also_ a meme-stereotype. If everybody is against Jeroen, then I must stand to be the Defender of the Lost Cause :-) But isn't that assuming that his cause is lost? :) Of course it is a lost. It will escalate forever. Probably it will end up in splitting the list in two - the best scenario, the other scenarios are worse. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Erik Reuter wrote: And his behaviour in the past days, with mailbombing, lawsuits, and forged headers, make him a very tasty target! Who's better to be harassed as someone who screams and shouts? Actually, it is the reverse. What better person to shout at then one who harasses? (I wonder if you have confused harass with tease? Jeroen has never been harassed by anyone on Brin-L that I know of) Maybe I confused the terms. Is there any precise definition? IMHO, harass should mean that the subject of the action feels so. I guess by now everybody will be very pleased, seeing how he is reacting. I was right! He's not a member of a civilization! Let's ban him forever! No, I think that most people would be happy for the ban to be temporary, if only Jeroen would apologize or even show a little remorse for his past misbehavior. What do you think are the chances of that? Less than 10%. Which is why I think this will escalate to Jeroen's final ban - another symptom that the list is dying. PS: I am _also_ a meme-stereotype. If everybody is against Jeroen, then I must stand to be the Defender of the Lost Cause :-) Time to ban Alberto! Try it!!! I will fight back!!! I will mailbomb all of you!!! Of course, threats aren't literal. When you say that to me, it's obvious a joke. When Jeroen said that to JDG [IIRC], everybody took it as serious. When Nick says it to Jeroen, he's serious. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 10:50:19AM -0200, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Maybe I confused the terms. Is there any precise definition? Probably not as precise as you want. But I think the usual use of harass implies repeated, unwanted action or attention (in some manner) and with intent to harm. Tease doesn't necessarily imply any of those qualities (although it COULD occasionally, they are not implied). -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Ritu Ko wrote: But isn't that assuming that his cause is lost? :) Of course it is a lost. It will escalate forever. Probably it will end up in splitting the list in two - the best scenario, the other scenarios are worse. It would end up *splitting* the list in two and that is the *best* case scenario!?!?! Yes. People have been leaving the list with angry goodbye, f--- you all messages along the years. Maybe these two points of view are unable to live together happily forever. Well, I have no idea what I have stumbled onto so I'll just sit down and keep quiet. :) Worst case scenario will be things getting out of the Cyberspace, like Digimon 3. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Alberto Monteiro wrote: Which is why I think this will escalate to Jeroen's final ban - another symptom that the list is dying. The symptom that the list is dying is that yet again we are involved in endlessly discussing one particular person and his actions and other's reactions. Enough of the self-flagellation already. Regards, Ray. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: harassing is evil, why it must be eradicated
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 11:05:45AM -0200, Alberto Monteiro wrote: So, I think I used the right term. As soon as we noticed how Jeroen reacts to things that **would** be teasing to other people - by feeling harmed - the teasing became a harassing No, even if I allow you the intent to harm (which is debatable), it lacks the other 2 qualities I mentioned. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Ray Ludenia wrote: Which is why I think this will escalate to Jeroen's final ban - another symptom that the list is dying. The symptom that the list is dying is that yet again we are involved in endlessly discussing one particular person and his actions and other's reactions. Enough of the self-flagellation already. I hate those kind of discussion. Why did I drag myself to become the solo defender of Jeroen? I guess I know: because it will make me the Only Defender of Free Speech :-P Things would be different if I were the list-tyrant. I would ban everybody who sent messages using the horrible imperial units Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Alberto Monteiro wrote: Things would be different if I were the list-tyrant. I would ban everybody who sent messages using the horrible imperial units So you admit that not all imperial units are horrible? Never thought I'd see the day! Ray. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
wolfling language is evil, why it must be eradicated
Ray Ludenia wrote: Things would be different if I were the list-tyrant. I would ban everybody who sent messages using the horrible imperial units So you admit that not all imperial units are horrible? Never thought I'd see the day! Who made you think that? I don't know English grammar, but in Portuguese an adjective can be explanatory or restrictive. _imperial_ is restrictive, I want to reduce the set of units to those that are imperial. _horrible_ is explanatory, because every imperial unit is horrible. Damn the ambiguities of the wolfling languages :-( Probably Gal2 has such distinctions Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: So how much is the participation on a mailing list worth?
Dan Minette wrote: - Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 11:36 PM Subject: Re: So how much is the participation on a mailing list worth? Jim Sharkey wrote: Apparently, it's worth $1,000,000. I had no idea you could sue for being banned from a free Internet mailing list. You learn something new every day. Did I miss something? Julia You didn't get the email threatening you and Nick with a $1,000,000 lawsuit and any damage to your career that he can arrange? Nope. That one didn't make it here for some reason. As I don't really have a career at this point besides being a wife and mother, I don't know what he could do. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Alberto said: Worst case scenario will be things getting out of the Cyberspace, like Digimon 3. My worst case scenario involves giant asteroids, gamma ray bursts, all-out nuclear exchanges, plague, famine, brain-eating zombie infestations, leaves on the line, and Steps reforming. Rich GCU And The Universal Adoption Of Imperial Units ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Admin: Server access blocked
Rich wrote: My worst case scenario involves giant asteroids, gamma ray bursts, all-out nuclear exchanges, plague, famine, brain-eating zombie infestations, leaves on the line, and Steps reforming. Rich GCU And The Universal Adoption Of Imperial Units And the wombats? Ritu GCU You Can't Forget The Wombats! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Toilets! Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the good side
At 08:18 PM 12/3/02 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Toilets are useful things that all of us come in contact with several times a day, and when they malfunction, it's a problem. (Notice that a significant portion of the toilet talk is about ones that aren't working optimally, at the very least?) Why is that any different from anyone discussing their computer problems? (At least we haven't had anything resembling an OS war on the toilet front!) How about regular versus low-flow? (Which is frequently NO-flow . . . providing a counterexample to Adam's Second Law of Plumbing, in that it just sits there and ferments rather than going down the pipe . . . ) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Toilets! Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the goodside
At 10:11 PM 12/3/02 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: Julia wrote: (At least we haven't had anything resembling an OS war on the toilet front!) That's probably because you're one of those lamers that uses the low-volume toilets, that you have to flush 3 times to get everything out of the bowl. Me? I go out and find Old Skool toilets, that have at least a 5 gal capacity. Not that I need it, but just in case Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Making new strides in reaching the lowest common denominator Ah, but have you tried a high-end Japanese-manufactured low-volume toilet? Neither my end nor my pocketbook are high enough to try them . . Those work very nicely, and use less water. Best of both worlds. :) Julia just waiting now for Ronn's inevitable comment I've been busy: finals getting started and all (talk about feeling like you're getting hit with a load of crâp . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the good side
At 07:10 PM 12/3/02 -0600, Dan Minette wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 7:00 PM Subject: Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the good side I learned the 3 rules of plumbing some years ago, and I'll share them with you now. (1) Hot water goes on the left (2) Shit goes downhill (3) Payday's on Friday That's really all you need to know. Well, that, and (4) Make triple sure you've turned off the water before touching the pipes. One think that I learned from my dad: make quadruple sure the high voltage is off before you work on it. :-) I once screamed at a nice woman because I was working on a high current high voltage switching system, and had turned it all off nicely. She turned it back on behind my back while I was working. That was before the days of lock out Was it on this list awhile back (at least back while we were on the Cornell server) that we had the discussion about always being careful to discharge the flyback capacitor before doing any work on a TV set or computer monitor (and at least one person¹ confessed to have learned that lesson the hard way . . . )? _ ¹Not me. I learned how to do it when I was tasked with writing a computer maintenance manual many years ago, and so far have never forgotten to do so before sticking my finger in that little hole on the side of the CRT (or anywhere else inside the set for that matter) . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
unsubscribe jeroen-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Alberto Monteiro wrote: PS: I am _also_ a meme-stereotype. If everybody is against Jeroen, then I must stand to be the Defender of the Lost Cause :-) Does that mean you don't actually disagree with Nick's decision, but are only protesting pro forma in your role as Official Contrarian? Or are you protesting? You seem to be lamenting the lack of support for Jeroen's case, but I don't see you arguing on his behalf in any specific way, except maybe for debating the concept of harrassment. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???
At 09:53 AM 12/4/02 -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: Russell Chapman wrote: How dirty can a ceiling get?? That depends on how often you use candles, oil lamps, oil simmerpots, potpourri, and other things that put extra stuff in the air. And how often you do experiments that involve making a working volcano model on the living room coffee table... :-) It wasn't a volcano, but the results of one experiment that . . . ahem . . . produced excess amounts of unwanted gaseous byproducts which were sufficient to remove the top from the container and create a fountain of chemical mix which removed the paint from the areas of the ceiling it touched. Results: (1) Yes, I figured out what went wrong. (Fortunately, the eruption occurred after I had set the container down and stepped away from the table.) (2) My father got to repaint the kitchen (at about the same time, a boilover from another experiment had sprayed black corrosive stuff on one wall, so the whole thing needed repainting). (3) My father also got to help me put shelves, etc., in the utility room to use that area, rather than the kitchen, as laboratory space, with the additional caveat that experiments involving the use of heat were to be conducted out of doors on the patio. (Concrete, however, is not the best surface over which to handle expensive lab glassware purchases with one's allowance. And then there were days when the wind seemed to take the fumes directly into the neighbor's open bedroom window . . . ) (4) Eventually I decided to become a professional astronomer rather than a chemist. --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Will Smith to star in 'I, Robot'
At 04:35 PM 12/4/02 -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/Movies/12/04/film.smith.reut/index.html or http://makeashorterlink.com/?E299429A2 NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Fox has booked Will Smith to star in sci-fier I, Robot, an adaptation of the 1940s Isaac Asimov short-story collection that set the groundwork for robot films ranging from The Terminator to A.I., Variety reports. [snip] The movie is a futuristic thriller in which a detective investigates a crime that might have been perpetrated by a robot, even though that seems an impossibility given those three prevailing rules [the three laws of robotics]. The big idea here is that if the robots have found a way to violate the laws, there is nothing to stop them from taking over, because the human race is so dependent on robots and automation, said 20th Century Fox film president Hutch Parker. Reggie Bautista VFP I was hoping for a Susan Calvin movie Perhaps Will Smith in drag? --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: meeces
At 08:58 PM 12/4/02 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 05:53:53PM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of The Fool ... http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/12/04/coolsc.coolsc.mousegenome/ When it comes to DNA, it turns out there's not that much difference between mice and men. Mice and humans each have about 30,000 genes, yet only 300 are unique to either organism. Both even have genes for a tail, even though it's not switched on in humans. Uh, could it be? Now *that* would be a prank! I wouldn't mind having a *prehensile* tail. A useless drooping one wouldn't be so useful, though. How about a tail like that of a cat, useful for (1) balancing oneself while jumping or changing direction quickly and (2) nonverbal expression of emotional states? Would Have To Redesign Chairs Though Maru --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rain
At 05:01 AM 12/5/02 -0600, The Fool wrote: Suppose you wanted to calculate the time it would take an even consistent rainfall over the entire surface of the earth to raise the sea level above the level of Mt. Everest (+5 miles or so), what would you need to know about rainfall, volume of the earth, topography of the earth, etc. to make a good first order approximation? You need an additional 3.7 times the total volume of all the water on Earth, or a sphere of water about 1300 miles in diameter. What you do with the excess when you have finished cleansing the Earth is left as an exercise for the student. Been There Done That Maru --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Admin: Server access blocked
Rich wrote: unsubscribe jeroen-l Me too. Ritu GCU Please ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Admin: Server access blocked
Rich wrote: unsubscribe jeroen-l Me too. Ritu GCU Please ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
- Original Message - From: Ritu Ko [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:37 AM Subject: RE: Admin: Server access blocked Rich wrote: unsubscribe jeroen-l Me too. Two comments on this: 1) Why doesn't Jerone start up his own version of BRIN-L (caps on purpose) and see how many people would subscribe. If it is more than [EMAIL PROTECTED], then he has made his point. 2) You could start a good discussion with that 100k exposition on the morality of pacifism that you've been owning me. evil grin. Actually, I'm even looking forward to a small exposition from someone of your viewpoint, wisdom and intellect. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Admin: Server access blocked
unsubscribe jeroen-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: PS: I am _also_ a meme-stereotype. If everybody is against Jeroen, then I must stand to be the Defender of the Lost Cause :-) Does that mean you don't actually disagree with Nick's decision, but are only protesting pro forma in your role as Official Contrarian? You are a very evil person... Or are you protesting? You seem to be lamenting the lack of support for Jeroen's case, but I don't see you arguing on his behalf in any specific way, except maybe for debating the concept of harrassment. serious My point is that it's not fair to ban Jeroen without the consent about the list rules. We didn't agree to what would be the list rules, and which was the minimum set of restraint that listmembers should show before being suspended And even 40 messages per day can't be considered mailbombing. I guess even I - who spend too much time watching TV - have occasionally written 40 messages in one day. /serious Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: meeces
In talking about humans with prehensile tails, Marvin wrote: To hell with fashion. Porn! Kinda brings a whole new meaning to getting some tail... Reggie Bautista Ducking very quickly Maru _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: meeces
- Original Message - From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:58 AM Subject: RE: meeces In talking about humans with prehensile tails, Marvin wrote: To hell with fashion. Porn! Kinda brings a whole new meaning to getting some tail... I'm amazed at how influential Marvin is. Rick Perry has already introduced legislation to the Texas 'ledge outlawing anything to do with consenting adults and tails. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Techno Dance Itch
Trent Shipley wrote: Yeah. Well that's not quite _it_. The crucial feature is being able to *group* the receiver appliances into groups. Russell Chapman replied: I *think* that's what these systems do. Some hear only the backing track (ie the filler stuff not being played by anyone on stage), some hear the music in total, and some only hear the stage manager's instructions, but who hears what can be switched from the backstage console. I imagine that your dance floor proposal could be done much cheaper than these things, and would require less expertise to operate. Perhaps IR could be utilised, with ceiling mounted transmitters. IR receiving headphones are very cheap in department stores. Having done a little recording studio and live audio work... Yes, it's certainly possible to have multiple separate monitor mixes (mixes for the headphones or earphones or monitor speakers used by each performer). If there are only one or two separate monitor mixes, the person doing the main audience mix might also handle the monitor mix. Sometimes there are separate mixes for each person, and usually that means three or four different mixing boards, often located backstage, each manned by a different mixer. I was backstage at a Neville Brothers concert (part of a big weekend-long outdoor festival here in KC a few years ago), and I saw no less than 5 backstage monitor mixers and two people manning the main audience mixing board, and two or three other people setting up mixing boards to be used for monitors for the next group. That's the most mixing boards I've ever seen in the same place outside of a music store. But Trent, for what you're talking about, it's as simple as having low-power transmitters on different radio frequencies and headphones that can be tuned to those frequencies. Schools have been doing something similar (only in a wired version) for a number of years with keyboard labs. Each student sits at an electronic keyboard with headphones on, and the teacher is able to listen to each individual student. In some systems, the teacher can group two to four students who are working on duets or trios or who are each playing a separate part of a four-part chorale so that all students in a given group hear the keyboards of all the other students in that same group, but no one else hears them and they hear no one else. Many of these systems also have microphones built into the headsets so the teacher and student can communicate to each other without either one having to get up from their desk. I think I've seen the mixers and headsets sold separately from the keyboards. My wife and I are going to a music education conference in late January where they might have some things like that set up in the vendor area. I'll see if there are any wireless systems currently available and sold without keyboards and let you know. You might want to send me a reminder email around January 20 or 21. I think the conference is that following weekend. Reggie Bautista _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Alberto wrote: I begin to understand why Jeroen was singled-out to be the victim-of-the-day. Some reasons are obvious: he *was* a listowner, so our meme of challenge authority took control. Others are subtle. And his behaviour in the past days, with mailbombing, lawsuits, and forged headers, make him a very tasty target! Who's better to be harassed as someone who screams and shouts? So you don't think there should be consequences for his actions? Or do you think the consequences should be something other than being temporarily banned from posting to the list? I guess by now everybody will be very pleased, seeing how he is reacting. I was right! He's not a member of a civilization! Let's ban him forever! I think I've only seen one post suggesting the ban be long-term, and none suggesting it be permanent. And I for one, and probably several others, certainly wish it had not come to this. Very pleased does not describe my feelings on this, and I doubt very seriously it describes the feelings of anyone else. I *like* Jeroen. On some issues, I even *agree* with him. PS: I am _also_ a meme-stereotype. If everybody is against Jeroen, then I must stand to be the Defender of the Lost Cause :-) I always saw you as more of the Trickster type. Challenging the general feeling of the group would certainly fit with that. Sometimes I think the Tricksters are the most important part of a society, challenging the status-quo and making us examine things that we sometimes feel uncomfortable examining. So keep up the good work! :-) Reggie Bautista _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rain
On Thursday 05 December 2002 04:01 am, The Fool wrote: Suppose you wanted to calculate the time it would take an even consistent rainfall over the entire surface of the earth to raise the sea level above the level of Mt. Everest (+5 miles or so), what would you need to know about rainfall, volume of the earth, topography of the earth, etc. to make a good first order approximation? Trent Shipley replied: For a first order approximation you would throw away topography as irrelevant (after all, it starts at only 30% and gets smaller as you add water) and you would treat the Earth as a proper sphere using distance from the center of the sphere to mean sea level as diameter. Assume a constant rainfall, not adujsted for the increasing size of the sphere as the ocean gets deeper. Say, 1 inch per hour, that's a nice hard rain so 2 feet a day. It'll take a while to reach 5 miles. However, if you say wanted to know if it would fit into, say 40 days and 40 nights, you would just assume that it rained 5 miles/40 days, that is 1mile/8days, or 1/8 mile per day. It would, indeed, require a miracle. However, the miracle needed to produce such a global deluge would pale beside the erosive effects of so much precipitation. Where *DID* all that topsoil come from? Or perhaps one can assume that flood stories actually refer to widescale local or regional flooding, but not global. Under those circumstances, what would be required for a first-order approximation, other than the land area affected? Reggie Bautista _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Richard Baker wrote: My worst case scenario involves giant asteroids, gamma ray bursts, all-out nuclear exchanges, plague, famine, brain-eating zombie infestations, leaves on the line, and Steps reforming. Have you been hacking into my home pc and reading my new novel? :-) Reggie Bautista GSV Not that there's an old one _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Alberto wrote: serious My point is that it's not fair to ban Jeroen without the consent about the list rules. We didn't agree to what would be the list rules, and which was the minimum set of restraint that listmembers should show before being suspended And even 40 messages per day can't be considered mailbombing. I guess even I - who spend too much time watching TV - have occasionally written 40 messages in one day. /serious But what about attempts to hack the server? Or putting [EMAIL PROTECTED] as his reply-to address so anyone wanting to reply to him actually ends up posting on-list (this can easily be seen as forcing others to unwittingly violate nettiquette by posting private email on-list)? Those aren't reasons enough for a temporary posting ban? Reggie Bautista _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Open question to the list
Nick wrote: I'm always open to suggestions on how to make the difficult trade-off between list governance and free-ranging discussion, self-determination as a group, etc. First, let me state on-list as I did privately in an email to Nick and Julia that I support their decision. In response to what Nick says above, I'd like to pose an open question to the list. I'm interested in responses that apply to governance in general, and also specifically to our current situation re: Jeroen. This question also applies to story that was recently posted (or rather the link to the story was posted) concerning the difference between the European political worldview and the American political worldview. Does a truly democratic society need police, or is there some other, better way to handle disruptive behavior and those who behave disruptively? Reggie Bautista _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Admin: Server access blocked
Dan Minette wrote: 2) You could start a good discussion with that 100k exposition on the morality of pacifism that you've been owning me. evil grin. chuckle And which one would that be? All I can see in my drafts folder is an unfinished 11k mail on a war that looks nigh inevitable. :) And since it took me long years to break myself of the habit of expounding unasked, you'll have to ask me those questions that you keep refering to. g I'll try to finish it by the next weekend. I am going to be out of town until mid next week. Actually, I'm even looking forward to a small exposition from someone of your viewpoint, wisdom and intellect. Thank you. I hope you won't be *too* disappointed. :) But I really thought those were my reasons for looking forward to this debate. Ritu PS - Apologies for all those repeated messages guys. My Outlook seems to be acing up. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Reggie Bautista wrote: And his behaviour in the past days, with mailbombing, lawsuits, and forged headers, make him a very tasty target! Who's better to be harassed as someone who screams and shouts? So you don't think there should be consequences for his actions? Yes - cause and effect. But the punishment should be comparable to the offense. Or do you think the consequences should be something other than being temporarily banned from posting to the list? Why was he suspended in the first place? AFAIK, it was for some reason that *did* have a precedent before, from other people. I always saw you as more of the Trickster type. Challenging the general feeling of the group would certainly fit with that. Sometimes I think the Tricksters are the most important part of a society, challenging the status-quo and making us examine things that we sometimes feel uncomfortable examining. So keep up the good work! :-) Being the Trickster I can be heard when I say things that, coming from other people, would be considered offenses :-) Alberto Uthacalthing ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
Reggie wrote: I'd like to pose an open question to the list. I'm interested in responses that apply to governance in general, and also specifically to our current situation re: Jeroen. *snip* Does a truly democratic society need police, or is there some other, better way to handle disruptive behavior and those who behave disruptively? I've been thinking about this, espcially in light of some of the complints leveled against Nick and Julia. Nick, I think, has de facto authority over the list, due to the fact that he is providing the hosting, and it's on his equipment, with software he owns. Julia has, in my opinion, shown herself to be levelheaded, impartial and hard to intimidate, so I pretty automatically assumed she'd be in some type of listowner/admin position. How should we handle administrative authority on the list? We've got a lot of options, some less palatable than others. It's obvious that, in light of both recent events ond other events in the past, that there is occasionally a need to move to actively work to rein in a listmember that is acting inappropriately. I'm wondering if we need to set up a three or five person committee (perhaps with rotating membership) to deal with stuff like this. Either elected or volunteer membership would do, but I'd nominate Alberto for sure. I dunno - it's the bare bones of an idea, and I'm not sure how the damn thing would work, but it's worth discussing, I think. Or maybe not. Just throwing out an idea. Adam __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Ritu Ko wrote: PS - Apologies for all those repeated messages guys. My Outlook seems to be acing up. No problem. The server will block any repeated message. Or not? O:-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
SCOUTED: Nigerian Scam and Cthulhu
This week, User Friendly (a great on-line comic strip) has had Cthulhu responding to the Nigerian 419 Scam. It's pretty funny. The first strip is at http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20021202 and just click next cartoon for all of the subsequent ones. Reggie Bautista Let's hope Nyarlathotep doesn't change my spelling of Cthulhu again... _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
- Original Message - From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 10:46 AM Subject: Re: Admin: Server access blocked Reggie Bautista wrote: And his behaviour in the past days, with mailbombing, lawsuits, and forged headers, make him a very tasty target! Who's better to be harassed as someone who screams and shouts? So you don't think there should be consequences for his actions? Yes - cause and effect. But the punishment should be comparable to the offense. Or do you think the consequences should be something other than being temporarily banned from posting to the list? Why was he suspended in the first place? AFAIK, it was for some reason that *did* have a precedent before, from other people. Who else has repeatedly posted offline email in its entireity? Who else has repeatedly reacted to someone failing to respond to email by personally insulting said person? Who else has repeatedly called for the permanant ouster of another list member because they either didn't respond to posts or responded offlist? And, that was just the short period leading up to moderation. If you really want to make a case for person X behaving no differently than persons A-W, yet being singled out, then I think you really have an uphill battle. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Aceing up?
Dan Minette wrote: PS - Apologies for all those repeated messages guys. My Outlook seems to be acing up. If it were just acing up, we'd only get one message. I'd argue that it was treying up. :-) :P Ritu GCU Acting Up ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Dan Minette wrote: Why was he suspended in the first place? AFAIK, it was for some reason that *did* have a precedent before, from other people. Who else has repeatedly posted offline email in its entireity? Jeroen. And wtf does the list have to worry about something that's done offlist? Who else has repeatedly reacted to someone failing to respond to email by personally insulting said person? Jeroen. So, it's in the list rules that offending someone else is forbidden? Who else has repeatedly called for the permanant ouster of another list member because they either didn't respond to posts or responded offlist? Jeroen. So, the rule is: if X requests that Y should be banned, then X must be banned? And, that was just the short period leading up to moderation. If you really want to make a case for person X behaving no differently than persons A-W, yet being singled out, then I think you really have an uphill battle. Jeroen's behavious was no different than any other listmember, except for magnitude or intensity. If there's no law against drinking alchool, then there's no law against getting drunk Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Alberto wrote: If there's no law against drinking alchool, then there's no law against getting drunk This is a flawed analogy. In the U.S. at least, there's no law against drinking alcohol, and no law against getting drunk, but there are laws against driving while drunk and many jurisdictions have laws against public drunkenness. In other words, you can be drunk, but you can't be drunk in certain places or while doing certain things. Reggie Bautista _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Alberto wrote: Jeroen's behavious was no different than any other listmember, except for magnitude or intensity. If there's no law against drinking alchool, then there's no law against getting drunk That's true, but, at least in the US, there are laws against being drunk disorderly in public, and against driving while drunk. There are laws against creating a public nuisance, as well. Look at it this way: You're at a bar having a few drinks. You get drunk, which is perfectly legal (and in some degree expected), but then you get abusive, calling the waitress names when she refuses to serve you any more drinks. When the bar manager comes to talk to you about it, you insult him and threaten to sue him. The bar owner then has you escorted outside the premises by the thick-necked man named Bruiser. Once outside, you continue to scream abuse at the owner, staff and patrons of the bar, going so far as to try to jimmy open the window of the men's toilet to slip in that way. Are you arguing that you've done nothing wrong, and should be allowed back into the bar to continue drinking? This is stretching the analogy, of course, since Jeroen is not (as far as we know) under the influence of alcohol. He seems to be in full control of his actions, so he doesn't have the minimal defense of being under the influence of alcohol. I don't support a permanent ban, either, but I do support efforts to minimize the disruption of abusive behavior onlist. Adam C. Lipscomb __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [azipa] Techno Dance Itch
Battery powered, multi-channel FM transmitters (Radio Shack, ~$20) Battery powered portable FM sport radio (yellow) in compact headset style, or wristband belt clip. (Radio Shack, ~$20). Going low tech because high tech is overkill: Priceless. - billn On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Trent Shipley wrote: Last week, being then employed and interested in social activity and exercise, I took a free dance lesson from an acquaintance. The main thing I learned was that music is a scarce and precious commodity in a dance studio. You can only put one, or at most two, sets of music over the loud speaker systems. Personal systems are *too* personal. A couple cannot coordinate walkmen or even mp3 players. WANTED: a wireless audio system for very local broadcasting -- to be used in dance studios and dance departments. (Ideally, somebody already makes this. If not, have Motorola give me a call.) TARGET MARKETS: Dance studios and dance departments or schools. Gymnastics coaches. Figure skaters and coaches. Personal or small-group trainers who teach rythm aerobics. Other markets for mini-cast audio. COMPONENTS: Information Appliances (2): Personal headset unit with compact receiver and powersource. Compact remote control unit. Base unit (3 sub-components) To be housed on PC, eventual migration to central info-appliance possible. Wireless LAN. Broadcaster software. == RECIEVER UNIT (RU): Low bulk, low weight. Useable by serious amatuer and professional dancers, gymnists, aerobicizers, and otherwise friendly to atheletes and interpretive artists who need access to audio mini-cast to a small group. Note that when I discussed this with my dancer friend she immediately thought it would be good for personal use. Thus, a version of the reciever appliance will be able to store audio in non-volitile memory. It will include the basic command functions listed below. (That is, in addition to participating as a reciever in a LAN mini-cast, some models of reciever unit *must* act exactly like current Mp3 players.) Reciver units shall have unique serial numbers (eg. MAC addresses) that can be aliased by the broadcaster software. SNs will be used to assign reciever appliances to broadcast groups. *THE* reason for the mini-cast system is to provide synchronized music to small groups in areas with high audio congestion. Therefore, users must be able to configure RUs into mini-cast reception groups. All recivers in a mini-cast group will get the same audio broadcast. Therefore, system implementers will be *very* cautious about using cached data when as RU is a member of a reception group that contains any other RUs as members. An RU cannot be restricted by line-of-sight. COMPACT REMOTE CONTROL UNIT (CRCU): Used by coaches and instructors, the remote control units will provide basic music control functions such as select song, make bookmark, goto bookmark, pause, stop, fast forward, reverse, and--never to be forgotten--play. The designer will *NOT* put excess function into the CRCU. Each button shall have one, and *ONLY* one function. The RU and CRCU may be integrated into a single assembly. It is marginally desirable that a palm-top augmented with appropriate software and hardware be able te emulate a CRCU. A CRCU cannot be restricted by line-of-sight. BASE UNIT (XMITer): Early versions of the base unit will be implemented from an Intel or Apple computer using mircrowave or RF wireless LAN (eg wireless ethernet). Line-of-sight technologies are inappropriate for this application. The wireless LAN must have sufficient bandwidth to support seamless, high quality broadcast of at least 5 simultaneous audio programs. The ability to add wireless LANs on slightly different frequencies, thereby expanding the system, is moderately desirable. Software will be included to manage the system (the App). The Application Administrator will be able to control storage and access to copywritten material, user access, where data is stored, and so on. Approprate interfaces will be provided to the App Admin. A critical job for the App Admin will be naming RU and CRCU appliances. *NOTE* that the App Admin is likely to be one or several small business owners with limited legal or computer expertise. Power users (coaches, instructors, and so on) will be designated by the app admin. They will need to manage their own music, access studio owned music, assemble programming for a given class, and so on. Most importantly, power users will need to define a group of RUs that will receive a mini-cast. They will also need to designate the CRCU that will control the mini-cast. The only domain expert consulted thus far seemed very interested in a personal RU with storage capablity. While the intital prototype may require aliasing a fixed set of RUs and CRCUs, the system will be designed to add and drop RU and CRCU
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
I wrote: If I make a really big mistake and cause a customer to loose several thousand dollars worth of business, I could get seriously reprimanded or possibly even fired. That should be lose, of course. Darn that Nyarlathotep. This, by the way, would count as a really small mistake. :-) Magnitude and intensity make all the difference in the world. And spelling does, two. ;-) Reggie Bautista _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
- Original Message - From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 11:08 AM Subject: Re: Admin: Server access blocked Dan Minette wrote: Why was he suspended in the first place? AFAIK, it was for some reason that *did* have a precedent before, from other people. Who else has repeatedly posted offline email in its entireity? Jeroen. And wtf does the list have to worry about something that's done offlist? Because the offline email was posted on list. Who else has repeatedly reacted to someone failing to respond to email by personally insulting said person? Jeroen. So, it's in the list rules that offending someone else is forbidden? No, it is possible to offend someone simply by giving a reasonable argument that rebutts something they say. The list ettiquette rules 1) Say no personal attacks on list 2) Say take exchanges that are getting personal and heated offlist. When JDG and Jeroen's discussions were turning into flame wars the requests were 1) Stop it 2) Take it offline JDG tried to do both recently, but found his efforts thwarted. It seems reasonable for JDG to request that something be done about this. It was clear, to me, that some form of moderation would be used to minimize flame wars. Further, even in forums where flame wars predominate, people do not post off list messages or keep on flaming someone who doesn't reply. Who else has repeatedly called for the permanant ouster of another list member because they either didn't respond to posts or responded offlist? Jeroen. So, the rule is: if X requests that Y should be banned, then X must be banned? No. The banning has nothing to do with that. The banning has to do with actions taken after moderation was started. Personally, if Jerone actually did try to hack Nick's computers, then a ban until he demonstrates that he has changed enough so that the probability of another hack is miniscular is most reasonable. If he actually did something less, like cut and paste respond to, then a simple promise to not send repeated messages to be moderated over and over again, costing Nick and Julia a lot of time, sounds OK to me. Jeroen's behavious was no different than any other listmember, except for magnitude or intensity. If there's no law against drinking alchool, then there's no law against getting drunk Can you come up with a cite where another member has suggested that someone kill themselves? Has anyone else put up a wall of shame? Has anyone else deliberately posted private email? Even if you were right, the magnitude and intensity argument has been well refuted, IMHO, by other posters. But, let me give one more example. Simply because someone has not been arrested for going 30.1 kph in a 30 kph school zone doesn't mean that someone should not be arrested and taken to jail for going 150 kph in a 30 kph school zone. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
on 5/12/02 4:14 pm, Reggie Bautista at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does a truly democratic society need police, or is there some other, better way to handle disruptive behavior and those who behave disruptively? Slap drone them. -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Admin: Server access blocked
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Alberto Monteiro ... serious My point is that it's not fair to ban Jeroen without the consent about the list rules. We didn't agree to what would be the list rules, and which was the minimum set of restraint that listmembers should show before being suspended Personal attacks are not okay and the policy on that is quite clear. In this case (as we would aim to do with all), we let a lot of them go by before taking action. Please recall that I posted a long list of them. Jeroen isn't banned from the list. He's moderated. I've shut off access to my company's server from his ISP because of attempted hacking, which Jeroen pretty much admitted to. Without access to my server, Jeroen can't post to the list, but that's a result of his hacking, not his behavior on the list. We'll shut off access to *anybody* who tries to break into my company's network; that decision is irrelevant to the list. And even 40 messages per day can't be considered mailbombing. I guess even I - who spend too much time watching TV - have occasionally written 40 messages in one day. /serious It wasn't just 40 messages. It was 40 duplicates. And it was the third or fourth time he'd sent them. That was just the largest burst. As I said, I've been patient, not immediately responding to anything except when I discovered Jeroen's IP address in our security logs. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [azipa] Techno Dance Itch
Bill Nash wrote: Battery powered, multi-channel FM transmitters (Radio Shack, ~$20) Battery powered portable FM sport radio (yellow) in compact headset style, or wristband belt clip. (Radio Shack, ~$20). Going low tech because high tech is overkill: Priceless. DOH! Why didn't I think of this! I've done sound designs for a community theater group called Wyandotte Players, and they use a Radio Shack short-range FM transmitter and small radios for hearing assistance for those in the audience who don't hear very well. The advantage of the other system I posted about is the talkback channel, but if you don't need that... Reggie Bautista _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Toilets! Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, the goodside
In a message dated 12/5/2002 9:16:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Subj: Re: Toilets! Re: DIY bathroom troubles, Re: Fwd: Religion, thegood side Date: 12/5/2002 9:16:40 AM Eastern Standard Time From: Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent from the Internet (Details) At 08:18 PM 12/3/02 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Toilets are useful things that all of us come in contact with several times a day, and when they malfunction, it's a problem. (Notice that a significant portion of the toilet talk is about ones that aren't working optimally, at the very least?) Why is that any different from anyone discussing their computer problems? (At least we haven't had anything resembling an OS war on the toilet front!) How about regular versus low-flow? (Which is frequently NO-flow . . . The alien kidnaps high school students story that our good Dr. Brin is working on has the entire hish school transported. All of the toilets become NO-flow. There. I got the string back on to Brin-esque thoughts. William Taylor Phoenix Library computer. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
[ir]rational answer question
Logic question: if an answer to a question relies on changing a principal axiom of the Universe, is the answer then irrational (or otherwise invalid)? -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
analogies are evil, why they must be eradicated
Reggie Bautista wrote: If there's no law against drinking alchool, then there's no law against getting drunk This is a flawed analogy. Every analogy is flawed Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: analogies are evil, why they must be eradicated
- Original Message - From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 12:35 PM Subject: analogies are evil, why they must be eradicated Every analogy is flawed All generalities are false. :-) Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: I'm wondering if we need to set up a three or five person committee (perhaps with rotating membership) to deal with stuff like this. Either elected or volunteer membership would do, but I'd nominate Alberto for sure. Takeover Plan Part Three - complete evil laughter Alberto Buyur ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Alberto Monteiro wrote: Dan Minette wrote: Why was he suspended in the first place? AFAIK, it was for some reason that *did* have a precedent before, from other people. Who else has repeatedly posted offline email in its entireity? Jeroen. And wtf does the list have to worry about something that's done offlist? Well, if he'd kept the off-list discussion off-list, it probably wouldn't have gotten to the point where anyone would even *consider* moderation in the first place. Who else has repeatedly reacted to someone failing to respond to email by personally insulting said person? Jeroen. So, it's in the list rules that offending someone else is forbidden? No, insulting someone repeatedly is frowned upon. The repeated is crucial to the whole thing. If someone wants to get their panties in a wad because of some of the stuff I posted about NFP bothers them, that's their problem, but if I repeatedly call someone stupid because I don't agree with their position, then I deserve some sort of time-out until I can show a little more respect for people I disagree with. Who else has repeatedly called for the permanant ouster of another list member because they either didn't respond to posts or responded offlist? Jeroen. So, the rule is: if X requests that Y should be banned, then X must be banned? No, but harping on the subject for a number of weeks and singling out a particular individual for this treatment is pretty rude, especially when a number of people have requested it not be done any more. And, that was just the short period leading up to moderation. If you really want to make a case for person X behaving no differently than persons A-W, yet being singled out, then I think you really have an uphill battle. Jeroen's behavious was no different than any other listmember, except for magnitude or intensity. If there's no law against drinking alchool, then there's no law against getting drunk There's no law against drinking alcohol, but there are laws regarding what you may and may not do beyond a certain point of intoxication. If you want to get so drunk you fall down, that's fine, just don't get behind the wheel of a car shortly before passing out from the alcohol. If A post an insult to B maybe twice a year, that can be tolerated. A posting an insult to B five times a day and making more aggressive demands than mere insult will not be tolerated here. And if it had *only* been the insulting, I would have protested the original request at moderation. It was the more aggressive behavior that lost Jeroen a potential ally among the admins. (And if it had only been the insults, I bet John would not have made as strong a case to the admins.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Open question to the list
-Original Message- From: Reggie Bautista [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 08:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Open question to the list Nick wrote: I'm always open to suggestions on how to make the difficult trade-off between list governance and free-ranging discussion, self-determination as a group, etc. First, let me state on-list as I did privately in an email to Nick and Julia that I support their decision. Ditto. I unsubbed a while back to get away from the noise, and finally decided that after 4-ish years on the list, I missed it more than Jeroen bothered me, so I was willing to give it another shot. In response to what Nick says above, I'd like to pose an open question to the list. I'm interested in responses that apply to governance in general, and also specifically to our current situation re: Jeroen. Its always a tricky thing, isn't it? I mean, its not something you generally have to worry about until someone steps over the line in a fashion like Jeroen has. Anger, dispute, a flame or two, that's all understandable, even important to an intellectually challenging and passionate community, but how does one deal with someone who's thrashing threatens to capsize all else? I don't have a good answer for your question Nick, despite having gone through this exact situation on 3 of my seattle-gaming lists with a certain person who had a similar approach as Jeroen IRT the community as a whole. I ended up unsubbing the person rather than banning them; 6 months later, they resubbed, participated nicely, then exploded into an angerball, forcing me to unsub them again. its been ~6 months since then, and I expect them to resub any day and the cycle to begin anew. Does a truly democratic society need police, or is there some other, better way to handle disruptive behavior and those who behave disruptively? Police have important social roles as well as law-enforcement. I was pleasently surprised this morning to see a motorcycle cop helping a man to change a tire on I-5 (instead of the usual pepper-spray and tear-gas Seattle PD response..) -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Ouch! (was RE: Open question to the list)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Miller, Jeffrey ... Police have important social roles as well as law-enforcement. I was pleasently surprised this morning to see a motorcycle cop helping a man to change a tire on I-5 (instead of the usual pepper-spray and tear-gas Seattle PD response..) They do that to you just for getting a flat tire!? Remind me not to drive in Seattle any more. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Admin: Server access blocked Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:52:47 -0600 - Original Message - From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 11:08 AM Subject: Re: Admin: Server access blocked Dan Minette wrote: Why was he suspended in the first place? AFAIK, it was for some reason that *did* have a precedent before, from other people. Who else has repeatedly posted offline email in its entireity? Jeroen. And wtf does the list have to worry about something that's done offlist? Because the offline email was posted on list. They were also posted on brin-l.com, which was the list's website. They were also sent to multiple listmembers offlist because they couldn't be posted here. Who else has repeatedly reacted to someone failing to respond to email by personally insulting said person? Jeroen. snip Who else has repeatedly called for the permanant ouster of another list member because they either didn't respond to posts or responded offlist? Jeroen. So, the rule is: if X requests that Y should be banned, then X must be banned? No. The banning has nothing to do with that. The banning has to do with actions taken after moderation was started. Personally, if Jerone actually did try to hack Nick's computers, then a ban until he demonstrates that he has changed enough so that the probability of another hack is miniscular is most reasonable. If he actually did something less, like cut and paste respond to, then a simple promise to not send repeated messages to be moderated over and over again, costing Nick and Julia a lot of time, sounds OK to me. Also, his chello.nl address has been blocked, but that's because an attack was registered from that isp on the mccmedia server, not as a result of the original reasons he was being moderated (if I understand things correctly). Unless I'm mistaken, Jeroen still has the ability to post to brin-l from his work address at mindef.nl, or any other address he chooses to subscribe from. I believe he would also be moderated if he posts from another address? Jeroen's behavious was no different than any other listmember, except for magnitude or intensity. If there's no law against drinking alchool, then there's no law against getting drunk Can you come up with a cite where another member has suggested that someone kill themselves? Has anyone else put up a wall of shame? Has anyone else deliberately posted private email? Jeroen only threatened to put up a Brin-L wall of shame. AFAIK, he never did, unless I missed something. Offlist e-mail also isn't the only private thing Jeroen has posted to the list within the past few months. He also posted the entire Brin-L subscriber list, with names and e-mails. This is not something any Brinneller could have done. No other Brinneller could have posted threats to John, Juilia and Nick on Brin-L.com. Yes, they could have posted threats on their own websites, but not the official list site. Jon _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Admin: Server access blocked
-Original Message- From: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 11:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Admin: Server access blocked From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Admin: Server access blocked Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:52:47 -0600 - Original Message - From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 11:08 AM Subject: Re: Admin: Server access blocked Dan Minette wrote: Why was he suspended in the first place? AFAIK, it was for some reason that *did* have a precedent before, from other people. Who else has repeatedly posted offline email in its entireity? Jeroen. And wtf does the list have to worry about something that's done offlist? Because the offline email was posted on list. They were also posted on brin-l.com, which was the list's website. They were also sent to multiple listmembers offlist because they couldn't be posted here. Yes, and receiving 40 copies of the same darn email flooded my yahoo account, shutting it down, and caused me to lose an eBay auction. Hey.. *perks up* maybe I can sue! ;) -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Admin: Server access blocked
-Original Message- From: Erik Reuter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 11:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Admin: Server access blocked On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 11:42:31AM -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: That should be lose, of course. Darn that Nyarlathotep. Darn that WHAT? I can't find it in my dictionary. Maybe I'm missing a play on words? Cthulhu mythos god-alien-monster ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Erik wondered: On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 11:42:31AM -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: That should be lose, of course. Darn that Nyarlathotep. Darn that WHAT? I can't find it in my dictionary. Maybe I'm missing a play on words? http://www.deliverance.mcmail.com/lovecraft/nyarlathotep.htm or http://makeashorterlink.com/?B2A932CA2 Nyarlathotep is one of the dark Old Ones of H. P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos. Very bad juju, baas. You no wanna mess wit' him. Adam THE HORROR! THE HORROR __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 11:42:31AM -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: That should be lose, of course. Darn that Nyarlathotep. Erik Reuter wrote: Darn that WHAT? I can't find it in my dictionary. Maybe I'm missing a play on words? Nyarlathotep was the name of a chaotic god-like character from H.P. Lovecraft's weird tales. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: Please accept my apologies for this - I have started sending at least 5 replies to Jeroen for every spam I get, and he has apparently, through a simple (and childish) trick, ensured they come to the list as a whole. I don't think it was intended as a trick. And I feel that you at least could take into consideration that Jeroen cannot at the moment defend himself on-list. Then again if it really was a trick he pulled on you, just have the decency to don't blame Jeroen for being clever at your expense. You'd have done better hitting yourself over the head a few times for falling for it and because you didn't check the reply to field before sending a little mailbomb of your own making. grin So just for the record I also think that you, Adam are at least as childish as Jeroen in replying multiple times to something without adding any actual content. Jeroen in his off-list mail (even if it is unsolicited by you and/or others) can at least be granted the benifit of the doubt for trying to make a point he feels very strongly about and that he at present and probably in any forseable future isn't allowed to make on this list. Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Scouted: Punch reviving on the net
http://media.guardian.co.uk/newmedia/story/0,7496,853847,00.html Punch, the 161-year-old satirical magazine that closed down earlier this year, is being reborn on the Web. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Scouted: The new Two Towers Trailer
Is available online at: http://www.apple.com/trailers/newline/the_two_towers-teaser/ It's even available for download, although you need apple Quicktime to play it. :-) Jon VFP We Live For The One, We Die For The wait, wrong universe. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
You are a very evil person...
I try, thank you.
[blinks innocently]
My point is that it's not fair to ban Jeroen without
the consent about the list rules. We didn't agree to
what would be the list rules, and which was the minimum
set of restraint that listmembers should show before
being suspended
That's a good point. However,
{set pontificate=Yes}
In all my years on Brin-L, despite numerous attempts, I've never seen the
list produce even a means for producing a decision by consensus, much less
a decision itself. Not for lack of suggestions or technical skill, I
suspect, but because not enough people are willing to be bothered or
willing to trust another to be in charge of a formal system. If that is
indeed the case, then it's unrealistic to expect Brin-L to behave like a
participatory democracy in which people vote on rules and the application
of rules.
Rather, in the terms of my own evil analogy, we are like a free social
club hosted in someone's home (Nick's server now, Cornell's server by way
of Eileen and Hector in days of yore). We can come and go any time we
please. The only restriction on listmember behavior, de facto, is what
the host and fellow listmembers, by way of the host, are willing to
tolerate. The only restriction on host (listowner) behavior is what the
guests are willing to tolerate. Thus the organizational principle of
Brin-L is not discussion and formal consent but is the bare fact of
participation itself.
If moderating or banning someone is against our collective sense of
fairness in the given social context, then we may scream in protest or we
may vote with our feet by unsubscribing; but to expect parliamentary
procedure is unrealistic, and because we know this, we should be prepared
to accept that the only justice available is poetic, so to speak -- a
matter of social cause and effect. If Nick and Julia are jerks, for
example, then poetic justice will take the form of everybody leaving and
starting a new list elsewhere.
The advantage to such a system is that it suits the lack of effort we
appear to be willing to put into collective self-governance. The
disadvantage is that it is prone to the explicit or tacit tyranny of the
majority where unpopular behavior or opinions are concerned. The question
on the conscience of every listmember ought to be, then, at what point
does unpopular-but-protected become uncivil-and-punishable?
I wish it were otherwise - being socially inept myself, I hate anything
that smells cliquish - but I see no reason to expect things ever actually
to be otherwise, and I'm a sufficiently evil hypocrite to be content with
the current system as long as it works sufficiently to my own perceived
benefit.
Therefore: there is not, has never been, and will never be a court of
consensus or appeal except for our own selves. If one believes an
injustice is being committed, one must say so, leave, or decide it's not
worth the trouble to interfere.
{set pontificate=No}
And even 40 messages per day can't be considered
mailbombing. I guess even I - who spend too much
time watching TV - have occasionally written 40
messages in one day.
That's true. Mailbombing, as I understand it, is flooding a server with
so much mail it crashes. For just being an annoying git, the term
mailbomb is hyperbole.
Marvin Long
Austin, Texas
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA)
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Ouch! (was RE: Open question to the list)
-Original Message- From: Nick Arnett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 11:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Ouch! (was RE: Open question to the list) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Miller, Jeffrey ... Police have important social roles as well as law-enforcement. I was pleasently surprised this morning to see a motorcycle cop helping a man to change a tire on I-5 (instead of the usual pepper-spray and tear-gas Seattle PD response..) They do that to you just for getting a flat tire!? Remind me not to drive in Seattle any more. Well, the trick is whether or not they /tell/ you they're a cop first. That's the tricky part. -j- (there was a case here recently where an off-duty sherrif in plain clothes drew a gun on a pair of men sitting in their truck who were not visibily breaking the law (other than being black in a white suburb.) The officer fired several times into the truck, killing one man and wounding the other, at which time he THEN informed them he was a police officer..) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Tails as the newest 'fashion fad'?, Re: meeces
Erik Reuter wrote: I wouldn't mind having a *prehensile* tail. A useless drooping one wouldn't be so useful, though. It could be the newest fashion statement however. Comparing ta ... oops ... ah well. Let's not go there. blush Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Admin: Server access blocked
From: J. van Baardwijk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] But what about attempts to hack the server? That is something that happened *only* because Arnett willingly violated list policy again, so he has no right to take any action against me anyway. Isn't that a bit like saying that since the bank messed up my checking account, no one should get mad that I tried to break in to the vault? And I certainly shouldn't be punished or jailed... - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: Please accept my apologies for this - I have started sending at least 5 replies to Jeroen for every spam I get, and he has apparently, through a simple (and childish) trick, ensured they come to the list as a whole. Speaking of childish, isn't doing more than tit-for-tat (i.e., rejecting each one back to him just once) childish? :) Wouldn't it be a lot more effective to set up some sort of system that just bounces everything he sends you back to him, so you never have to worry about it after setting it up? Wouldn't it be great if there were an easily-obtained software solution that could do this for you? [Cue Fool with a recommendation of such a product.] Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: analogies are evil, why they must be eradicated
In a message dated 12/5/2002 11:36:54 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Every analogy is flawed All generalities are false. :-) All generals who flaunt their falsies are anal. [Gee.] William Taylor - Logic server blocked. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
I wrote: That should be lose, of course. Darn that Nyarlathotep. Erik replied: Darn that WHAT? I can't find it in my dictionary. Maybe I'm missing a play on words? Nyarlathotep is one of the elder gods, along with Cthulhu and others, in the stories of H. P. Lovecraft. In a message within the past week, I mis-spelled Cthulhu which was pointed out to me by Alberto. I replied by stating that I had spelled Cthulhu correctly but somehow it had gotten changed after I sent it, and then I insinuated that it was Nyarlathotep's fault. So I figured with another mis-spelling, I could blame it on Nyarlathotep again. :-) Reggie Bautista _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
--- Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Recipient list suppressed Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 6:09 PM Subject: Re: Admin: Server access blocked rest of 10K message deleted I just got TEN of these in a row - what is going on? I realize that I still have 150+ messages to check, but I see that quite a few have this same thread/subject. :( Preparing To Delete Unread Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin: Server access blocked
Debbi said: I just got TEN of these in a row - what is going on? Some might view it as a mailing list equivalent of the French Revolution. Others may well consider it escalating childishness. Rich GCU Who Will Be Our Napoleon? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
For your entertainment, Re: Assumptions
Russell Chapman wrote: Russell Chapman wrote: Sonja GCU smileys are our friends And that's the best news I've heard all day... I'd hate to miss out on your next plumbing adventure. I'm waiting to hear that having sorted out the water supply, the drains are all broken, or the floor has collapsed, or any of those misadventures that seem to befall us when we get too adventurous... Aaaagh - and then I forgot smilies D'oh! Please rest assured that while I do wish to hear your entertaining tales about the renovations, I most definitely do not wish any misadventures on you or your house at all... Ok, since the discussion is verging toward toilets anyway I might as well sent my .. ehum.. adventures of the day since they center on installing the toilet as well. After taking two days to get back on track after .. eh ... let's call it euphemistically .. discovering the exact position of the water conduit in our wall while installing the tub, I finally managed to install the tub properly... for the time being that is. So it is where it is supposed to be, resting on the feet it is supposed to rest on, with a improvised one for the sitting part (that so 'kindly' wasn't supplied by the bath manufacturer I might add). I is astonishingly enough actually level and useable, although with a bit of caution as to splashing water around since it hasn't it's waterresistant finish, .. yet insert applause, please Luckily the tub went where the shower area was, so no further plumbing required. I used the old connection for the showerdrain to plug the drain from the bath into. Not as straight forward but after some rethinking the original idea I have good hopes that it will work to our satisfaction ones I've found the right piece for making the connection watertight. So that brings us on to the toilet. It has to be installed into more or less the space where the old toilet was, only now it is a hanging toilet that is placed under an angle toward the corner instead of flat onto nearly the middle of the wall. In order to keep the original wastepipe in place we had to 'lego' different waste pipe angles, straight parts and different waste pipe sorts together. The considerations that lead to the final somewhat wild looking but totally valid construction were 1) We have a big waste pipe so restriction in applying reasonable angles aren't going to be an issue very much. 2) We'd like to keep the original waste pipe in place, just in case we'd have to move and they are demanding restoring the old situation. 3) We don't want to glue the PVC pipes together because we might change our minds altogether and get the shower back NOT A CHANCE IN HELL after all this. I hope eh... So lucky for us there is this very nice new stuff on the market with very nice rubber fittings that make it possible for any laymen to puzzle a suitable and airtight PVC pipeform together without having to glue the stuff. I loved doing that... I mean that was the sentiment afterwardsI think eh... Then the horror really began. The wooden carrier frame for the (toward the corner) angled hanging toiled we intended to make was a bit of a challenge. We had to carve out a few pieces, the waste pipe was in the way so we had to reconsider a few things and when we finally managed to put something together it actually looks pretty darn nice and is even very sturdy. or ... it ... is ... gonne ... eh be when it is going to be finally finished ... I hope... grin So on to the rest what rest?... We worked hard and that is all we did? Jeez doesn't sound like an awfull lot when you look at it Ah well I have good hopes that tomorrow I'll be able to finish placing the toilet into it's final position, I might even get to connect it up to the original water supply. Sounds easy enough I'll let you know what happened. Oh, and just to show you I'm not totally stupid this little anectdote My father inlaw was unpacking his really big drill to make a hole in the floor to fix the second floorsupport of the hanging toilet to. I made him wait. Almost had to get physical but finally he relented. I think he felt he was humoring me because he understood that I just didn't want a repeat performance from last Sunday. I really feel that one punctured water pipe per job is more than enough. So I got out my little gadget for finding those nasty little metal surprises where you want to drill and after callibration put it where the hole was supposed to go. Can you guess? .. BIEIEIEIEP and yes, no hole, we found another way to safely support the whole structure. YAY. Darn I'm good. very broad self rightious grin Oh oh, who do I hear coming over the roof riding on his horse I believe it is 'Sinter Klaas'. I really should get to bed now, or Tom will find no surprise in his shoe tomorrow. And I don't want that on my conscience, now do I. Sonja ;o) GCU, 'nuf damage for one day
Stag Film Serenade
From our local independent movie theater, this ad is too good not to share... -- Forwarded message -- Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:35:55 -0600 Subject: Alamo Drafthouse Showtimes and events 12/06/02 [snip] SWINGING STAG NIGHT! vintage 70's stag films - live sound effects! DISCO DOLLS IN HOT SKIN presented in STAG-O-VISION! SUNDAY, DEC 8, 7:00 9:45 We at the Alamo Drafthouse Cinema are proud to unveil our latest concept in movie entertainment: STAG-O-VISION!Vintage XXX stag films from the 1970's with the original audio completely muted. In its place, our precision sound-effects crew will be recreating ALL of the sounds from the movie, redubbing all of the outrageous dialog, and delivering all the requisite gritty wah-wah guitar licks 100% LIVE IN THE THEATER! And if that weren't enough, our very first feature of this series is also in 3-D! That's right, 3-D!, and the third- dimension has never been so amply filled as with Disco Dolls in Hot Skin, featuring stag legends Serena and John Holmes. Billed as the real Boogie Nights, Disco Dolls in Hot Skin played to packed houses the last time it was in town, and that was without the live foley effects! We recommend advance purchase tickets for this one, its going to be a barn-burner! http://www.drafthouse.com/frames.asp?l=downtownb=online_tix/show_details.as p?show_id=535 [snip] Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Admin: Server access blocked
Speaking of childish, isn't doing more than tit-for-tat (i.e., rejecting each one back to him just once) childish? :) Wouldn't it be a lot more effective to set up some sort of system that just bounces everything he sends you back to him, so you never have to worry about it after setting it up? Wouldn't it be great if there were an easily-obtained software solution that could do this for you? [Cue Fool with a recommendation of such a product.] Mailwasher www.mailwasher.net ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Punch reviving on the net
In a message dated 12/5/2002 1:50:28 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Punch, the 161-year-old satirical magazine that closed down earlier this year, is being reborn on the Web. Ah, memories. I used to have 20 bound volumes of it. One being a Volume Twenty with 3/4 of the original spine. For $200 I once sold the Shanghai China Punch-like volume. Thousands of miles from home, and the British still had to have a British humor magazine. William Taylor - Will it have that cartoon caption contest? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: For your entertainment, Re: Assumptions
Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: 2) We'd like to keep the original waste pipe in place, just in case we'd have to move and they are demanding restoring the old situation. Um - are you leasing/renting this place? I'd always assumed from the sheer amount of hard work (not mentioning expense) that you've put into it that you had bought the house. Glad it's coming together at last! Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: For your entertainment, Re: Assumptions
Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: So lucky for us there is this very nice new stuff on the market with very nice rubber fittings that make it possible for any laymen to puzzle a suitable and airtight PVC pipeform together without having to glue the stuff. I loved doing that... I mean that was the sentiment afterwardsI think eh... Oh, man, when I think about the effort put into installing the water conditioner here, and how much of the trouble could have been avoided with that It was almost heartbreaking, watching the guy sent out to install the thing having problems with it in the August heat for so long. (It would have been nice to have been able to flush the toilets during the 2 hour period that was supposed to only be 30-45 minutes, as well.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fred Haber, RIP
My wife just called to tell me that one of our favorite people from church, Fred Haber, died this afternoon. None of you probably know who he is, and I'm not sure if you'll find his name in any histories of the space program, but Fred was the launch control officer at Vandenberg and other places for about three decades of the space program. He was the guy who decided if a rocket got to go or not. I often forgot about Fred's background in the space program. He has been retired for a while, so my memories of him are mostly his leadership of our Saturday morning men's breakfast fellowship, heading our buildings and grounds group and making the Men of Monday happen -- some guys whose wives were quilting at the church on Monday decided that they'd come along, bring their tools and fix stuff. He was a quiet guy who did what needed to be done. I had asked him a week ago Saturday if he was worried about the bypass surgery that he had on Tuesday. Nope, he said. He'd gotten to know his doctor very well and trusted him completely. A friend had undergone the same surgery a year ago, same doctor, same hospital, with no problems. And he said his wife, Audrey, wasn't worried, either. The surgery went well, but somehow his heart gave out this afternoon. I'm sad. We lost a couple of our other favorite people from church in the last week. It's been a difficult time for that community. I know that although most everyone on the list is interested in the space program to one extent or another, Fred's death is a small one. But hey, writing this helps me. Nick -- Nick Arnett Phone/fax: (408) 904-7198 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
List On The Brink?
Okay, what the hell is going on? For various reasons, I haven't been reading Brin-L much lately, but today I came back and scanned through the messages, only to find that Jeroen has become some kind of Typhoid Mary who has to be censored from the list for its own protection, or something. It isn't very clear. What did he do to get himself totally banned? If you don't want to discuss this matter on-list any further I understand, but if that's so could someone please tell me what's going on in a private Email? Because frankly, I'm confused, or to be more accurate, stunned, as to how this situation came about. Jeroen is a long time list member. Yes, his continual campaign to avenge any and all slights to his honour is annoying, but even at his off-list, spamming worst I still find him *orders of magnitude* less annoying than some trolls of the recent past. (Hiya, Wilbur07. Nice to see you're still here.) From the peanut gallery, it looks like Jeroen's recent activities (IE: threatening lawsuits, forging return addresses, and what not) are semi-hysterical responses to his posts being moderated in the first place, and that's what I don't understand. Yes, his conduct has been pretty lousy lately, but why did the list-owners, moderators, or whatever they're called, drive him to do it in the first place? Why have you been pushing his buttons? What's happened to this place? Kevin Street ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Adam: Sandler access blocked
In a message dated 12/5/2002 3:44:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Who Will Be Our Napoleon? And who will be the Beef Wellington? William Taylor - Oh for the younger Woody ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: List On The Brink?
This should explain: http://www.mccmedia.com/pipermail/brin-l/Week-of-Mon-20021118/004507.html But there are reasons to be hopeful that things will soon be back to more-or-less normal. Nick -- Nick Arnett Phone/fax: (408) 904-7198 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Kevin Street Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 4:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: List On The Brink? Okay, what the hell is going on? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
bread
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3144 Eating too much refined bread and cereal, rather than chocolate and greasy foods, may be the culprit behind the pimples that plague many a youngster. That is the theory of a team led by Loren Cordain, an evolutionary biologist at Colorado State University in Fort Collins. Highly processed breads and cereals are easily digested. The resulting flood of sugars makes the body produce high levels of insulin and insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1). This in turn leads to an excess of male hormones. These encourage pores in the skin to ooze large amounts of sebum, the greasy goop that acne-promoting bacteria love. IGF-1 also encourages skin cells called keratinocytes to multiply, a hallmark of acne, the team say in a paper that will appear in the December issue of Archives of Dermatology. An Australian team will soon test the theory by putting 60 teenage boys with acne on a low-carbohydrate diet for three months to see if it makes a difference. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: bread
The Fool wrote: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3144 Eating too much refined bread and cereal, rather than chocolate and greasy foods, may be the culprit behind the pimples that plague many a youngster. Very intersting. So after the connection between diet and pimples has been debunked, it may turn out to have been close to the mark after all! Reggie Bautista _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: bread
The Fool wrote: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3144 Eating too much refined bread and cereal, rather than chocolate and greasy foods, may be the culprit behind the pimples that plague many a youngster. If it turns out that I spurned chocolate and chips (fries for you USAns) throughout all those years for nothing I'm going to be seriously pissed off. I mean those were the years when I was sufficiently active that putting on weight was never an issue - I only avoided them to avoid pimples... Now I don't have to worry about pimples, but a sedentary job and insufficient physical activity in my limited spare time mean I still can't eat them as I'd like to... Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: List On The Brink?
Kevin Street wrote: Okay, what the hell is going on? For various reasons, I haven't been reading Brin-L much lately, but today I came back and scanned through the messages, only to find that Jeroen has become some kind of Typhoid Mary who has to be censored from the list for its own protection, or something. It isn't very clear. I've been following it closely, and I'm not too clear on it myself... __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stag Film Serenade
On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 05:05:27PM -0600, Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: requisite gritty wah-wah guitar licks 100% LIVE IN THE THEATER! And if that weren't enough, our very first feature of this series is also in 3-D! That's right, 3-D!, and the third- dimension has never been so amply filled as with Disco Dolls in Hot Skin, featuring stag legends Serena and John How can you take a film originally shot in 2D and show it in 3D? For 3D, you need a parallax view of some sort, two cameras or a special camera. Marvin, you'll have to go and report back. You have your assignment... -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fwd: FC: Canada's high court says 5-4 that engineered mouse not patentable (was Re: meeces)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:27:03 -0500 To: Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Jason Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Harvard can't patent mice in Canada Declan, After nearly 18 years of appeals up through the courts, the Supreme Court of Canada today decided, in a 5-4 split, that a higher life form is not patentable because it is not a manufacture or composition of matter within the meaning of invention in the Patent Act. Harvard had been trying to claim patent protection on the process by which so-called 'oncomice' are produced and the end product of the process. The minority, in dissent, argued that the human modfication of every single cell in the body of an animal which does not in this altered form exist in nature is an inventive composition of matter within the meaning of the Patent Act. They also observed that the oncomouse had now been patented in Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, the United Kingdom and the United States. A similar patent has been issued in Japan. New Zealand has issued a patent for a transgenic mouse that has been genetically modified to be susceptible to HIV infection. Indeed, we were not told of any country with a patent system comparable to Canada's (or otherwise) in which a patent on the oncomouse had been applied for and been refused. However, the majority argued that although the Patent Act is designed to advance research and development and encourage broader economic activity, it simply does not follow from the objective of promoting ingenuity that all inventions must be patentable and the fact that the Patent Act in its current state is ill-equipped to deal appropriately with higher life forms as patentable subject matter is an indication that Parliament never intended the definition of invention to extend to this type of subject matter. The court's finding can be summed thusly: regardless of whether the Court thinks the oncomouse is deserving of patent protection, the language of the Act does not permit it and the significant values implicated by such a finding dissuades the Court from reading in that intent. It is up to Parliament to situate the line between lower life forms (which are patentable) and higher life forms, including humans, with regards to patentability. Here's the decision: Harvard College v. Canada 2002 SCC 76, paras. 169-170, online: LexUM http://www.shorl.com/gupukutyhabry. Story on CBC http://cbc.ca/stories/2002/12/05/scc_mouse021205 Best, Jason -- --- http://www.lexinformatica.org http://www.privaterra.org http://www.epic.org PGP KeyID 0x46E11518 - POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ - Like Politech? Make a donation here: http://www.politechbot.com/donate/ Recent CNET News.com articles: http://news.search.com/search?q=declan - --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: nuts
--- Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Kneem wrote] http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s734326.htm Nuts lower diabetes risk, not fattening Thursday, 28 November 2002 Nuts can dramatically reduce your risks of developing type 2 diabetes Eating nuts substantially lowers the risk of developing type 2 diabetes and does not lead to weight gain, a large-scale American study of women has found - a result that is likely to also apply to men. And an article I posted for our office health news: http://my.webmd.com/printing/article/1671.53518 ...Compared with men who were not big nut eaters, those who ate nuts at least twice a week were about half as likely to fall victim to sudden heart death. And the nut eaters were 30% less likely to die from heart disease, according to researcher Christine M. Albert, MD, MPH, of Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, and colleagues... ...Lichtenstein says it's most likely the omega 3 fatty acids found in nuts that provide protection against the heart rhythm problems that can lead to sudden death. Researchers say walnuts contain especially high amounts of these fatty acids compared with other types of nuts. Nuts are also rich in magnesium, potassium, and vitamin E, all of which have the ability to protect the heart, according to the researchers. In addition, nuts contain substances known as flavonoids, which have recently been shown to reduce the risk of heart-related deaths. Flavanoids are also found in green and black tea. Chock-Full Of Goodness Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why the metric system is wrong
--- J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The metric system wrong? That is heresy, heresy I tell ya! GRIN http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/books/12/02/alder.measure/index.html There is a message of hope near the end of the article, though: Eventually, he says, Americans will fully adjust. The metric system was meant to be global, and the meter created by the surveyors has become the worldwide standard. Still, the last sentences are (in compliance with your header): Yes, the actual length of the meter -- compared with what was intended -- is a mistake. But it's a mistake that has transformed the world, as the book's subtitle has it. That is why, Alder says, Delambre and Mechain's meter -- created 'for all people, for all time' -- was in fact an error for all people, for all time. Vindication for the rod, the fathom, the hand! mMMWA-hahaha! ;D Debbi 5 feet, 4 inches Maru (Darby being 14 hands, 3 inches @ the withers) __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
