Re: -Re: Education
Well the quote was just a highlight. But if you want the real in-depth thought process behind this... The most respected minds in the health / psychology community regarding Autism (Simon Baron-Cohen in particular) are citing similarities between Einstein and people with Asperger Syndrome (which wasn't added to the books in the US until the mid 90's despite the fact that early research started in the mid 40's). Challenges with communication are one of the most salient features of Asperger Syndrome and other Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). In fact, they are a diagnostic requirement. So it's unlikely imo that they would be including Einstein in their research as an example of someone who may have had the condition unless they were finding significant examples of communication difficulty in their research. The fact that his lectures were notoriously confusing is just a convenient highlight for the BBC article on the subject. I don't think I'm reading too much into the quote, no. But if you read any biography of Einstein, you'll find that he had no trouble communicating with lots of people. So perhaps he's not as good a candidate for their research as they'd like; the BBC article you posted indicates that this diagnosis is far from universally accepted. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327752 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
-Original Message- From: s. isaac dealey [mailto:i...@turnkey.to] Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 1:30 AM To: cf-talk Subject: -Re: Education Totally off topic but... Is Simon Baron-Cohen related to Sasha Baron-Cohen (AKA Borat)? It would be a very interesting dichotomy if they were.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2988647.stm Highlight: He was also a notoriously confusing lecturer. Does not say to me pretty good at communicating with people, but of course, you can interpret it how you like. I think that you're reading way too much into a single pullquote. Perhaps his lectures simply covered notoriously confusing topics? Well the quote was just a highlight. But if you want the real in-depth thought process behind this... The most respected minds in the health / psychology community regarding Autism (Simon Baron-Cohen in particular) are citing similarities between Einstein and people with Asperger Syndrome (which wasn't added to the books in the US until the mid 90's despite the fact that early research started in the mid 40's). Challenges with communication are one of the most salient features of Asperger Syndrome and other Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). In fact, they are a diagnostic requirement. So it's unlikely imo that they would be including Einstein in their research as an example of someone who may have had the condition unless they were finding significant examples of communication difficulty in their research. The fact that his lectures were notoriously confusing is just a convenient highlight for the BBC article on the subject. I don't think I'm reading too much into the quote, no. Here's the video of Nobel Laureatte (economics) Vernon Smith who has Asperger Syndrome. I suspect this is rather similar to what the researchers are finding in their study of Einstein. http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/7030737#7030737 -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327758 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
I couldnn't agree more. Sure a CS undergrad or Masters won't make you proficient in any language but it should give a good grounding in basic constructs and generalized best practices that would be applicable in many programming languages. I do think this is one area where many cf developers could use a little extra experience. I have learned a great deal from my masters program. It has focused on good basics in systems analysis and design etc and I still have a year left to go. I am also looking forward to the database design and network design courses. But I'm getting frustrated when I try and come back to other cf programmers at work (I have been doing cf for 10 years now myself). They have no idea what I mean when I try and discuss functional decomposition or object cohesion and coupling, or the differences between relational databases and object oriented ones for example. I know its expensive and time consuming but I still feel a good number of developers would do better if they could step back from the language and get a handle on some sound good programming concepts. Elizabeth Alger HITSS contract -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:09 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education Just looking at ColdFusion alone, we've had a new major version every year for the past 4 years. Which means that if you had a 4 year college course that included CF prepared in 2006, it would be outdated by 3 major versions by this year when the students graduated. I expect a similar kind of phenomena with other languages that have been traditionally (or recently) included in Comp-Sci courses like Java or C++. Or for any of the .NET technologies that Microsoft promote. Personally I lean more in the direction of thinking that a comp-sci degree isn't very useful in software engineering, but that a cognitive science degree would help an awful lot. Again, computer science is not programming. A good CS curriculum isn't about specific technologies, it's about foundational knowledge - how computers work, algorithms, etc, etc. In my experience, not enough CF programmers understand that stuff as well as they should. I'm in that category myself - I've been reading CS books for the last decade or so, trying to catch up to that basic level of foundational knowledge. While a typical CS program will teach one or more programming languages, the languages themselves are tangential to the actual content of the course, and could easily be replaced by other languages. It doesn't really matter how current the actual language is, for that purpose. And as far as CF goes, while CF has lots of new bells and whistles every couple of years, the introductory CF course authored by Adobe changes very little, and is pretty similar to what it was when CF 3 came out. The advanced course changes quite a bit, on the other hand. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327779 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
On Sat, 2009-10-24 at 15:17 -0500, s. isaac dealey wrote: In my case in particular, my skills are fairly slanted toward the technical, meaning that my people skills are rusty. LOLI think that's just a programmer trait ;-) My staff once compared me to the new toilet paper my partner bought.abrasive yet effective ;-) It's funny because it's true! Cheers - Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: br...@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com Notice: This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327673 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
On Sat, 2009-10-24 at 15:17 -0500, s. isaac dealey wrote: In my case in particular, my skills are fairly slanted toward the technical, meaning that my people skills are rusty. LOLI think that's just a programmer trait ;-) My staff once compared me to the new toilet paper my partner bought.abrasive yet effective ;-) It's funny because it's true! One of the things that tends to frustrate me about job placement ads is that they always seem to want you to be some combination of Einstein's level of technical expertise and Obama's speaking finesse. ;) Forget that Obama isn't an especially technical individual and that Einstein wasn't the most effective communicator. Much less the everpresent knowledge gap between a manager's understanding of the task at hand and the engineer's understanding of the same task, meaning that even if the manager were the world's most renowned orator, it would be impossible for him to communicate effectively about a subject matter in which he's just not well versed. /rant -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327680 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Billy Cox wrote: I'm a musician as well. scary!! Rick Faircloth wrote: I think you're right, Mark. Music, especially theory, is very logical and an lot like programming...just a different medium. *raises up guitar, and keyboard and rests them on the desk by his keyboard* *officially creepy now* Allen ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327681 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Bryan Stevenson wrote: Speaking as a non-musician. Poppycock, you picked up my guitar when I brought it in the office and played it. Actually I think I really am onejust never had the time to keep playing ;-) I believe that that while you can phrase computer science as a science, there is much more art than science to it. There is artistry in seeing all of the parts and guiding them into the whole. It really makes sense that musicians and programmer/analysts tend to go hand in hand. Allen ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327684 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Just looking at ColdFusion alone, we've had a new major version every year for the past 4 years. Which means that if you had a 4 year college course that included CF prepared in 2006, it would be outdated by 3 major versions by this year when the students graduated. I expect a similar kind of phenomena with other languages that have been traditionally (or recently) included in Comp-Sci courses like Java or C++. Or for any of the .NET technologies that Microsoft promote. Personally I lean more in the direction of thinking that a comp-sci degree isn't very useful in software engineering, but that a cognitive science degree would help an awful lot. Again, computer science is not programming. A good CS curriculum isn't about specific technologies, it's about foundational knowledge - how computers work, algorithms, etc, etc. In my experience, not enough CF programmers understand that stuff as well as they should. I'm in that category myself - I've been reading CS books for the last decade or so, trying to catch up to that basic level of foundational knowledge. While a typical CS program will teach one or more programming languages, the languages themselves are tangential to the actual content of the course, and could easily be replaced by other languages. It doesn't really matter how current the actual language is, for that purpose. And as far as CF goes, while CF has lots of new bells and whistles every couple of years, the introductory CF course authored by Adobe changes very little, and is pretty similar to what it was when CF 3 came out. The advanced course changes quite a bit, on the other hand. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327691 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I'd say you're pretty accurate in your guess. I don't have it and don't want it either. For me it's as much a matter of principle as anything. I got where I am today by figuring it out on my own (as I think most CFers have) and to me that's worth WAY more than somebody who sat in a classroom and had it fed to them. No one has sat in a classroom and had it fed to them in college. That's not really what college, and CS specifically, are about. I had an interview last week and left feeling like a complete idiot because I didn't have the vocabulary they were apparently looking for. Whether or not you have a CS degree, or want one, it's important to understand the terms of art used within your trade. I don't care how good a programmer you are, if you can't communicate with other programmers using the terms of art that are mutually understood by programmers, you won't be able to do anything except work on projects by yourself. This is true in most trades that are more sophisticated than unskilled labor. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more informati ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327693 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Education
One of the things that tends to frustrate me about job placement ads is that they always seem to want you to be some combination of Einstein's level of technical expertise and Obama's speaking finesse. ;) Forget that Obama isn't an especially technical individual and that Einstein wasn't the most effective communicator. This is a bit off-topic, but Einstein was actually pretty good at communicating with people. And when it comes to programming, communication between programmers, PMs and clients is VERY IMPORTANT. I've seen more projects fail because of bad communication than anything else. Frank Lloyd Wright, the famed architect, was a bit eccentric, but he was onto something when he insisted that his students learn social skills. He saw them as essential to being a successful architect. Without those skills, it didn't matter how good you were at the act of designing structures - you wouldn't be hired in the first place, or you wouldn't be able to convey your vision to your client, or you wouldn't be able to convince your client that your design shouldn't be changed at the client's whim, etc, etc. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327694 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I've seen allot of jobs require lately BA/BS and not accept experience in it's place. Experience is very difficult to quantify. Many hiring programs require some sort of easily quantifiable information as the first filter. In most places, you need the degree to get in the door, then you need experience to actually get the job. What in your estimation is the percent of coldfusion people who have these and do you have one yourself? My estimate would basically be the exact opposite of yours. That said, I don't have a degree myself. For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. Has your experience been different? Yes. The vast majority of CF developers I've met have a BA or BS, although most aren't in CS. As a CF instructor since 1997 or so, I've trained many CF developers, and most had a degree in something. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327695 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
In any case, there's nothing that was in my degree back in the early 1970s that's relevant to today's world. But i have been building web sites the internet first went commercial. I built my first web site using Frontpage 1 - that taught me as much about building web sites as almost anything since. In fact i have doubts about whether a degree course could possibly keep up with the changes in technology. At best a degree course would only be able to teach general principles, because the technology would have moved on by the time any graduates actually came into the work force with teh knowledge they gained at university. Computer science isn't about technology. If you got a CS degree in the 70s, almost everything you learned would still be relevant today. Basic programming hasn't actually changed that much in the last thirty years, believe it or not. We're still using the same algorithms, etc. Smalltalk, the archetypal OO language, was around in the 70s. SQL has been around even longer. Lots of details have changed, and there are lots of new languages all the time. But CS isn't about those details. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more inform ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327696 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I believe that that while you can phrase computer science as a science, there is much more art than science to it. There is artistry in seeing all of the parts and guiding them into the whole. It really makes sense that musicians and programmer/analysts tend to go hand in hand. Well, no. Computer science is not programming, nor is it art. It's science. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more informatio ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327700 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Mark Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com wrote: Rick, That is so funny I have a BA in Theology, a BA in Music and I'm just shy of a master in Sociology - and here I am working in computer development :) It's not surprising how many folks have Music as a part of their skill set who are also programmers. There's a natural synergy there I think. -Mark 1 year in Architectural Design 1 year in mechanical drafting 2 cfunited conferences 1 company coldfusion 2 or 3 day training session on-site. no degree, but I'd say a few of those courses have helped me over what I gained in High School. The rest was learning from books which worked very well. Tack on cfunited and you learn more about coldfusion than you would in any Computer Science Curriculum I've seen. I'm a DJ as well but don't see how a lot of music theory helps me, so I'm glad I didn't go that route. If the Internet was kickin it in 92' I might have gone that route starting out. A few years in call center management, where I started writing SQL got me more interested in programming, down hill ever since. Well, down hill if you call working for myself thing, out of my house... I do miss Corporate life at times. Keeping your snowboard in your office with those pow wow sessions before work were a plus at Stratton Mtn Resort, I absolutely don't miss the meetings though. My resume is great on experience but I didn't even get a call when I applied for a Skidmore College position a couple years back. That was odd but then again, I don't have a degree. Casey ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327705 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
One of the things that tends to frustrate me about job placement ads is that they always seem to want you to be some combination of Einstein's level of technical expertise and Obama's speaking finesse. ;) Forget that Obama isn't an especially technical individual and that Einstein wasn't the most effective communicator. This is a bit off-topic, but Einstein was actually pretty good at communicating with people. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2988647.stm Highlight: He was also a notoriously confusing lecturer. Does not say to me pretty good at communicating with people, but of course, you can interpret it how you like. -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327729 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2988647.stm Highlight: He was also a notoriously confusing lecturer. Does not say to me pretty good at communicating with people, but of course, you can interpret it how you like. I think that you're reading way too much into a single pullquote. Perhaps his lectures simply covered notoriously confusing topics? And if ten percent of these quotes attributed to Einstein are actually his, he's almost certainly a better communicator than either of us: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/albert_einstein.html Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327734 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
-Re: Education
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2988647.stm Highlight: He was also a notoriously confusing lecturer. Does not say to me pretty good at communicating with people, but of course, you can interpret it how you like. I think that you're reading way too much into a single pullquote. Perhaps his lectures simply covered notoriously confusing topics? Well the quote was just a highlight. But if you want the real in-depth thought process behind this... The most respected minds in the health / psychology community regarding Autism (Simon Baron-Cohen in particular) are citing similarities between Einstein and people with Asperger Syndrome (which wasn't added to the books in the US until the mid 90's despite the fact that early research started in the mid 40's). Challenges with communication are one of the most salient features of Asperger Syndrome and other Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). In fact, they are a diagnostic requirement. So it's unlikely imo that they would be including Einstein in their research as an example of someone who may have had the condition unless they were finding significant examples of communication difficulty in their research. The fact that his lectures were notoriously confusing is just a convenient highlight for the BBC article on the subject. I don't think I'm reading too much into the quote, no. Here's the video of Nobel Laureatte (economics) Vernon Smith who has Asperger Syndrome. I suspect this is rather similar to what the researchers are finding in their study of Einstein. http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/7030737#7030737 -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327742 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
It's not surprising how many folks have Music as a part of their skill set who are also programmers. There's a natural synergy there I think. Music and mathematics are processed by adjacent regions of right parietal cerebral cortex, and programming of course uses the basic skill set of mathematics so it's not surprising. Many quantitative scientists are also good musicians. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327658 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
This question is very timely for me. I have a BA in Journalism but have been largely self taught when it comes to IT. However as I now begin my final year of a Masters in Information Systems I am learning a lot that is very useful. I do think some formal training would be good for many developers. Sure lots of people can make a system work. But it takes a little more thought to create a well designed one that is easy for others to maintain. And as several of my text books have pointed out almost 75% of an application's/system's sdlc (software development life cycle) is in the maintenance phase (this includes not only bug fixes but enhancements and adjustments for new environments). Elizabeth Alger Software Developer HITSS contract -Original Message- From: Phillip Vector [mailto:vec...@mostdeadlygame.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 9:58 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Education Just curious.. I've seen allot of jobs require lately BA/BS and not accept experience in it's place. What in your estimation is the percent of coldfusion people who have these and do you have one yourself? For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. Has your experience been different? ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327661 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Education
Well, Asperger's doesn't predispose one to people skills. I also see solutions in my head and generally take care of it before I get to writing anything down; it's part of the alternative way of thinking that allows Aspies to see patterns easily etc. Sure, my people skills suck too, but that's something than can be learnt; I'll take the benefits over being cool at parties any day. mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ 2009/10/25 s. isaac dealey i...@turnkey.to: In my case in particular, my skills are fairly slanted toward the technical, meaning that my people skills are rusty. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327662 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
Sounds logical! Music composition and programming can become overwhelmingly ethereal at times. Trying to keep my mind wrapped around an idea and all its components, can just about lead to a blown mental fuse at times! :o) That's when it's time to take some notes, go for a 25-mile bike ride, let that problem settle in my brain and begin to solve itself, then come back later and say, Oh, I hadn't thought of that before!... Rick -Original Message- From: s. isaac dealey [mailto:i...@turnkey.to] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 8:14 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education Rick Faircloth: I think you're right, Mark. Music, especially theory, is very logical and an lot like programming...just a different medium. If you get into orchestral composition, it's quite OO. ;o) I have a completely untested hunch that the language centers of the brain have more growth in musicians and programmers than in the general public. It seems like sheet music / music theory and coding / programming theory both are fundamentally about the interpretation of symbols, so it seems like language development would be the logical neurological link between them. Friend of mine is a hardware / networking guy, but doesn't do any programming because he says he just can't retain it. He also happens to have a tin-ear. ;) I think part of the difference there may also be the ability to visualize the model. In hardware / networking there are actual physical objects that connect together in a particular, specific way, but with programming (as with language), that's not the case. Like lines of code, words can be fit together in rather arbitrary and novel ways. So instead of having a solid mental model of a large system, what you have is lots of smaller mental models of an individual units in that system (a word or a component). Instead of having solid, well-known relationships between the units, their relationships are ambiguous and constantly open to interpretation or redefinition. Jazz anyone? ;) -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327639 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
It's ok to go away in your mind sometimes, Bryan, as long as you come back... :o) -Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:br...@electricedgesystems.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 8:26 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education Speaking as a non-musician. Actually I think I really am onejust never had the time to keep playing ;-) I love music and in life and work all I see are patterns and how things fit or could fitwhich to me sounds a lot like what Isaac said here: Like lines of code, words can be fit together in rather arbitrary and novel ways. So instead of having a solid mental model of a large system, what you have is lots of smaller mental models of an individual units in that system (a word or a component). Instead of having solid, well-known relationships between the units, their relationships are ambiguous and constantly open to interpretation or redefinition. It's just like in A Beautiful Mind where Nash saw the patterns in encrypted documents etc. (not that I am in any way in the same league...but you get my drift). I just see it all in my head and mess with it there before writing the code. Kinda drives people nuts when I go away in my head for a bit and come back with a solution to a problem ;-) Happy Friday! Cheers - Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: br...@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com Notice: This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327640 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
Now that's about the most unusual instrument I've seen! I just don't see how he does the fastest runs in the piece! Hilarious! -Original Message- From: Gerald Guido [mailto:gerald.gu...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 9:09 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education Well Ike, there are only 12 notes (words) in western music. Hell of a language where almost all the meaning is in the timber, cadence and inflection. Odd how something that is essentially a mathematical construct with a vocabulary of 12 words can convey nearly an infinite shades of meaning. But none the less some interpretations of even the most beautiful compositions known to humanity can still make giggle uncontrollably http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12rioESy2fgfeature=related G! On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 8:13 PM, s. isaac dealey i...@turnkey.to wrote: Rick Faircloth: I think you're right, Mark. Music, especially theory, is very logical and an lot like programming...just a different medium. If you get into orchestral composition, it's quite OO. ;o) I have a completely untested hunch that the language centers of the brain have more growth in musicians and programmers than in the general public. It seems like sheet music / music theory and coding / programming theory both are fundamentally about the interpretation of symbols, so it seems like language development would be the logical neurological link between them. Friend of mine is a hardware / networking guy, but doesn't do any programming because he says he just can't retain it. He also happens to have a tin-ear. ;) I think part of the difference there may also be the ability to visualize the model. In hardware / networking there are actual physical objects that connect together in a particular, specific way, but with programming (as with language), that's not the case. Like lines of code, words can be fit together in rather arbitrary and novel ways. So instead of having a solid mental model of a large system, what you have is lots of smaller mental models of an individual units in that system (a word or a component). Instead of having solid, well-known relationships between the units, their relationships are ambiguous and constantly open to interpretation or redefinition. Jazz anyone? ;) -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327641 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Jazz anyone? ;) So, what's free-form jazz? Is that kind of like when you just make up code and hope it compiles? What people call cowboy coding? ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboy_coding Oh funny, check the advantages section: Developers maintain a freeform working environment that may encourage experimentation, learning, and free distribution of results. -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327642 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Bryan Stevenson: It's just like in A Beautiful Mind where Nash saw the patterns in encrypted documents etc. (not that I am in any way in the same league...but you get my drift). I just see it all in my head and mess with it there before writing the code. Kinda drives people nuts when I go away in my head for a bit and come back with a solution to a problem ;-) I was trying to find some way of responding to this that wouldn't seem conceited... and couldn't really come up with anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it. I thought everyone did this? Certainly not to the extent of A Beatiful Mind or the card-counting in Rain Man, but I have a difficult time imagining any other way of working. Although I've never noticed that other people reacted at all to my doing it either. Or maybe I don't really do it to the extent that you do, but on my own projects I tend to spend a good deal of time creating a mental model of how to accomplish my goals before I start writing any code. On CacheBox I knew how I wanted to implement the Agent / Service design a while before I started writing any code, how it would hot-swap different storage engines and gracefully downgrade from requested parameters to meet available resources, and I had a model of the query-of-query techniques I wanted to try (although they changed once I tested them). -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327643 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Phillip Vector vec...@mostdeadlygame.com wrote: I've seen allot of jobs require lately BA/BS and not accept experience in it's place. I think you will find that alot of these jobs requiring a BA/BS are in a more corporate environment where HR reps who know very little about technology are doing the initial resume sifting. A HUGE percentage of companies on Monster.com or other similar websites are going to be these big corporate entities, or recruiters - so if you are looking there, you'll probably see alot more of this requirement. You'll also find this in some other smaller companies, but typically a smaller company will make an exception if you truly are highly skilled at what you do and don't have a BA/BS. Lastly, I think that there is sometimes a distinction between just any ole 4 year degree, and one which focuses on technology. What in your estimation is the percent of coldfusion people who have these and do you have one yourself? None of us have a real way to measure this, and I would say that feedback from this list is probably skewed too since people who are self taught are more likely to seek out this list (since it's a mechanism for self teaching). For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. I thinks 5% is wildly low. I have no idea what the statistics are, but I am very confident it's far higher than 5%. -Cameron ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327644 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
On Sat, 2009-10-24 at 11:52 -0400, Rick Faircloth wrote: It's ok to go away in your mind sometimes, Bryan, as long as you come back... :o) hehe...well usually it's a quick tripnice break in the day really ;-) - Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: br...@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com Notice: This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327645 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
On Sat, 2009-10-24 at 11:29 -0500, s. isaac dealey wrote: I was trying to find some way of responding to this that wouldn't seem conceited... and couldn't really come up with anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it. I thought everyone did this? It's OK to have skill that makes you good at what you doit's when ya throw in others faces that makes it sound conceited...all clear here ;-) I get you though...it strikes me as odd when others can't see the patterns I do. For me I think it's due to my memory...it even scares me sometimesremembering line numbers or code above/below the code you are remembering 5 years after writing it is just creepy. Well if this application development thing doesn't work out I can always be a circus freak ;-) Cheers - Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: br...@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com Notice: This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327646 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I just love that the video labels him a manualist ... awesome. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327647 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I get you though...it strikes me as odd when others can't see the patterns I do. For me I think it's due to my memory...it even scares me sometimesremembering line numbers or code above/below the code you are remembering 5 years after writing it is just creepy. Now that's some memory! Mine isn't that good. I have a darned good memory for technical details, but it's typically selective. So I remember the formula for the volume of a cone, which I've never used, but I misremember the release schedule for versions of ColdFusion. ;) In my case in particular, my skills are fairly slanted toward the technical, meaning that my people skills are rusty. Just means I have to work harder at them, but at least now I know why and I've been able to find some books that I think are really helping me to shore up my challenge areas. Just finished reading Words that Work, Crucial Conversations, Influencer, Carol Dweck's Mindset and a few others this year. And boy let me tell you, there are things in there I wish I'd known when I presentated at cf.Objective a few years ago. :) Well if this application development thing doesn't work out I can always be a circus freak ;-) Maybe we missed our calling. ;) -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327648 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
I can remember coding I did from more than 10 years ago, but I can't remember to pick up milk when I go to the grocery store for diapers (or vice versa!). I suppose that' what 40 will do to you! BTW - to chime in on the whole education thread - I have a BA degree in Religion which, as you can tell, perfectly qualifies me to be a ColdFusion developer. :) On top of that, I didn't earn my BA until I was 35 years old (of course, I started it when I was 28 - yeah, I know, 7 years...but hey, at least I finished it!). I have never been held back from my career because of a lack of a degree, let alone a technology degree, however, since I now have aspirations for management, I am working on a MS degree in CIS as it will help to get my resume in front of the right people for a management position in other companies. Although I would rather move up in my company, I just don't know what the prospects for that will be like in 3-5 years when I'm ready to move into management, so until then, I'll finish up this MS degree and then work on my MBA. Once I have MBA and MS in CIS, then I feel with my 20 years of IT experience that I will be perfectly qualified to jump into a management position. Dave -Original Message- From: s. isaac dealey [mailto:i...@turnkey.to] Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 3:18 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education I get you though...it strikes me as odd when others can't see the patterns I do. For me I think it's due to my memory...it even scares me sometimesremembering line numbers or code above/below the code you are remembering 5 years after writing it is just creepy. Now that's some memory! Mine isn't that good. I have a darned good memory for technical details, but it's typically selective. So I remember the formula for the volume of a cone, which I've never used, but I misremember the release schedule for versions of ColdFusion. ;) In my case in particular, my skills are fairly slanted toward the technical, meaning that my people skills are rusty. Just means I have to work harder at them, but at least now I know why and I've been able to find some books that I think are really helping me to shore up my challenge areas. Just finished reading Words that Work, Crucial Conversations, Influencer, Carol Dweck's Mindset and a few others this year. And boy let me tell you, there are things in there I wish I'd known when I presentated at cf.Objective a few years ago. :) Well if this application development thing doesn't work out I can always be a circus freak ;-) Maybe we missed our calling. ;) -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327649 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Since I have only used Coldfusion in academic institutions, it is pretty much 100% in my experience. But, this is probably not indicative of a true cross-section :) On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Phillip Vector vec...@mostdeadlygame.comwrote: Just curious.. I've seen allot of jobs require lately BA/BS and not accept experience in it's place. What in your estimation is the percent of coldfusion people who have these and do you have one yourself? For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. Has your experience been different? ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327574 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
This may be more of a cf-community rather then cf-talk discussion. But I do have two college degrees. Of course they are a Bachelor of Liberal Arts - University Studies and an Associate of Occupational Studies - Culinary Arts. But they are college degrees! :-). I suspect this is what you will find more of. Plenty of people in IT with college degrees. Just a surprising number of them in anything but Computer Science or anything similar. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327575 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I've seen allot of jobs require lately BA/BS and not accept experience in it's place. What in your estimation is the percent of coldfusion people who have these and do you have one yourself? For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. Has your experience been different? I'd say you're pretty accurate in your guess. I don't have it and don't want it either. For me it's as much a matter of principle as anything. I got where I am today by figuring it out on my own (as I think most CFers have) and to me that's worth WAY more than somebody who sat in a classroom and had it fed to them. I had an interview last week and left feeling like a complete idiot because I didn't have the vocabulary they were apparently looking for. Rob ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327576 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
1st Class Honours in Musical Theatre here... Of around 8-9 devs in our team over the last 18 months we had one developer with a comp science degree. He was worse than an appalling programmer, though I suspect that is not typical. Dominic 2009/10/23 Phillip Vector vec...@mostdeadlygame.com Just curious.. I've seen allot of jobs require lately BA/BS and not accept experience in it's place. What in your estimation is the percent of coldfusion people who have these and do you have one yourself? For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. Has your experience been different? ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327578 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I have my BA in Geography, with a Minor in Computing - course that focused on Physics and Math, not coding :) And I have a Post-Secondary diploma as a GIS- Cartographic Specialist - where I got more programming experience than my Minor Rob On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Dominic Watson watson.domi...@googlemail.com wrote: 1st Class Honours in Musical Theatre here... Of around 8-9 devs in our team over the last 18 months we had one developer with a comp science degree. He was worse than an appalling programmer, though I suspect that is not typical. Dominic 2009/10/23 Phillip Vector vec...@mostdeadlygame.com Just curious.. I've seen allot of jobs require lately BA/BS and not accept experience in it's place. What in your estimation is the percent of coldfusion people who have these and do you have one yourself? For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. Has your experience been different? ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327579 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Just curious.. I've seen allot of jobs require lately BA/BS and not accept experience in it's place. What in your estimation is the percent of coldfusion people who have these and do you have one yourself? For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. Has your experience been different? ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327580 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I have a university degree too, but when I got my degree, they didnt have personal computers. The only computers around were what soon became known as mainframe computers.I graduated in 1974. I have a business degree, and the principles of marketing haven't changed in all that time- the strategies and tactics have, but the principles remain the same In any case, there's nothing that was in my degree back in the early 1970s that's relevant to today's world. But i have been building web sites the internet first went commercial. I built my first web site using Frontpage 1 - that taught me as much about building web sites as almost anything since. In fact i have doubts about whether a degree course could possibly keep up with the changes in technology. At best a degree course would only be able to teach general principles, because the technology would have moved on by the time any graduates actually came into the work force with teh knowledge they gained at university. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 1:54 AM, Rob Parkhill robert.parkh...@gmail.com wrote: I have my BA in Geography, with a Minor in Computing - course that focused on Physics and Math, not coding :) And I have a Post-Secondary diploma as a GIS- Cartographic Specialist - where I got more programming experience than my Minor Rob On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Dominic Watson watson.domi...@googlemail.com wrote: 1st Class Honours in Musical Theatre here... Of around 8-9 devs in our team over the last 18 months we had one developer with a comp science degree. He was worse than an appalling programmer, though I suspect that is not typical. Dominic ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327581 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I'm self taught too... I actually have an Art degree qood question and post. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327582 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
BSC here, in math/physics, and MSC in computer technologies. Actually, CF may be the 20th language I learned and used. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327583 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. Most of the IT people that I know and/or have worked with have degrees. But then again I live in a town with two large universities and a couple of junior colleges. There are like 35,000-40,000 students in town so BA/BS's are a dime a dozen. However, most of of the IT ppl I have worked with don't have CS or MIS degrees. The most talented developer I have *ever* worked with got his BS in nutrition. While I put a high premium on autodidacticism, there is some thing to be said having a college degree. Namely, that during the period of life when one is most prone to screwing up, they managed to commit to some thing and follow through with it. ;) Though life does throw curve balls that doesn't allow one the opportunity to go to/ finish college. In that respect I was fortunate. My $0.02 and worth every penny. G! On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Phillip Vector vec...@mostdeadlygame.comwrote: Just curious.. I've seen allot of jobs require lately BA/BS and not accept experience in it's place. What in your estimation is the percent of coldfusion people who have these and do you have one yourself? For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. Has your experience been different? ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327584 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I've got a BA and an MA, but neither one is in CS or MIS ... Classics (Ancient Greek and Latin). The 'requirement' of CS / MIS schooling tends to come from HR, rather than IT hiring managers. Not always true, but often. Completely agree that the degree is immaterial vs the demonstrated ability to learn and to program solid software. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327587 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
BS in Criminal Justice and MS in Information Systems. As far as ColdFusion programming...LOL I am more of an administrator versus a programmer now. Have not really programmed with CF since CF4. -Original Message- From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:schneeg...@internetique.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 8:16 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education BSC here, in math/physics, and MSC in computer technologies. Actually, CF may be the 20th language I learned and used. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327588 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Guess I'm a little outnumbered - I have no degree. But then I'm an old fa*t who's been around and worked in everything over the years from law to construction before being wowed by the amazing combination of art and science that is the internet. Our Web Manager has a degree in nutritional science. Go figure. But we complement each other in the experience/qualification equation. But what you're seeing is more a sign of the current times rather than related to any given discipline. With so many people unfortunately out of work these days, employers (who are hiring) can afford to be more exacting and particular with their requirements of job applicants. I've seen these requirements undulate over the years. -- Mark Atkinson AOCS Web | www.aocs.org 217-693-4839 Phillip Vector wrote: Just curious.. I've seen allot of jobs require lately BA/BS and not accept experience in it's place. What in your estimation is the percent of coldfusion people who have these and do you have one yourself? For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. Has your experience been different? ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327590 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
Nope you're not I have a bunch of hours in a CIS program, but no degree, and as much as I want to, probably no time to get one.. But I've been using CF since V.3.1. I've found that an organization that values a piece of paper over practical experience isn't usually a place that I'd want to work anyways. -Original Message- From: Mark Atkinson [mailto:ma...@aocs.org] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:07 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education Guess I'm a little outnumbered - I have no degree. But then I'm an old fa*t who's been around and worked in everything over the years from law to construction before being wowed by the amazing combination of art and science that is the internet. Our Web Manager has a degree in nutritional science. Go figure. But we complement each other in the experience/qualification equation. But what you're seeing is more a sign of the current times rather than related to any given discipline. With so many people unfortunately out of work these days, employers (who are hiring) can afford to be more exacting and particular with their requirements of job applicants. I've seen these requirements undulate over the years. -- Mark Atkinson AOCS Web | www.aocs.org 217-693-4839 Phillip Vector wrote: Just curious.. I've seen allot of jobs require lately BA/BS and not accept experience in it's place. What in your estimation is the percent of coldfusion people who have these and do you have one yourself? For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. Has your experience been different? ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327593 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I have a BS is Mathematics with minors in Biology and Physics. My course work definitely helped me as it taught me about thinking algorithmically and problem solving. I do work with some folks with actual CS degrees and their background does come in useful on occasion. For instance, we had to write a flexible, generic file parser that used a custom DSL to define the data we wanted to extract out of each file type. This apparently involves a State Machine and a Map Reduce algorithm. Not something I know about because I was not a CS student but apparently quite useful for this sort of thing. Most of your standard websites, CMS projects, etc aren't likely to need a grounding in CS but there are certainly problems that come up that greatly benefit from it. Judah ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327594 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
This may be more of a cf-community rather then cf-talk discussion. Actually there's a cf-jobs-talk list specifically for these kinds of threads... It doesn't get much traffic. Personally I'm not particular about where the thread shows up. Mike may move this one shortly. http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-jobs-talk -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327595 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Of around 8-9 devs in our team over the last 18 months we had one developer with a comp science degree. He was worse than an appalling programmer, though I suspect that is not typical. I took a short-term project for the state of TX a couple years ago. The project manager at the time told me that they'd hired someone before me who had a bachelors in CS and had to let him go because he didn't seem able to navigate their codebase on his own without a lot of direct instruction that they just didn't have the time to provide. And his results came too slow for their project timeline and were frequently not what they needed. They said he seemed compelled to turn everything into OO instead of addressing the functional requirements of the project. I have no degree, but got lots of praise for my work, so... not that it's necessarily indicative, but I at least had a corroborating experience. Our project manager (who also coded there) had his degree in nuclear physics. -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327597 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
In fact i have doubts about whether a degree course could possibly keep up with the changes in technology. At best a degree course would only be able to teach general principles, because the technology would have moved on by the time any graduates actually came into the work force with teh knowledge they gained at university. Just looking at ColdFusion alone, we've had a new major version every year for the past 4 years. Which means that if you had a 4 year college course that included CF prepared in 2006, it would be outdated by 3 major versions by this year when the students graduated. I expect a similar kind of phenomena with other languages that have been traditionally (or recently) included in Comp-Sci courses like Java or C++. Or for any of the .NET technologies that Microsoft promote. Personally I lean more in the direction of thinking that a comp-sci degree isn't very useful in software engineering, but that a cognitive science degree would help an awful lot. The technologies we use are changing rapidly -- the brains we use to interpret those technologies are not. I got my hands on a college cog-sci textbook recently and am about half-way through it currently. I'm finding the information about memory and information processing fairly useful in making decisions about human interaction with my projects. -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327599 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Education
To buck the overall trend, Computer Systems Technology at Camosun College. I have seen professionals in our field ranging from Computer Science trained, to those with Doctorates in Paleontology. Its funny how most of the instructors (something like 75%) did not have degrees in either computer science or education. From a practical standpoint, experience does count the most. I think, though, that a lot of companies use 'must have a a degree' as a brainless filter to try and weed out a large number of applicants. Its an attitude that has always been there. I personally believe that experience over education is what should really be considered when staffing. That, and communication skills. I've seen computer science people with Masters degrees who were terrible programmers, I've seen people with no computer science background being terrific programmers, and everything in between. I wouldn't even want to apply for a company that _requires_ a degree over experience, because if they are looking at the wrong criteria right off the bat, can you imagine what their attitudes towards doing business are like? Allen Souliere Phillip Vector wrote: Just curious.. I've seen allot of jobs require lately BA/BS and not accept experience in it's place. What in your estimation is the percent of coldfusion people who have these and do you have one yourself? For me, I don't have any college experience and I would guess that about 5% of the coldfusion community actually have a BA/BS. Has your experience been different? ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327600 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Heh...nuclear physics...ColdFusioncoincidence? I think not! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion Thanks, Eric Cobb http://www.cfgears.com s. isaac dealey wrote: Of around 8-9 devs in our team over the last 18 months we had one developer with a comp science degree. He was worse than an appalling programmer, though I suspect that is not typical. I took a short-term project for the state of TX a couple years ago. The project manager at the time told me that they'd hired someone before me who had a bachelors in CS and had to let him go because he didn't seem able to navigate their codebase on his own without a lot of direct instruction that they just didn't have the time to provide. And his results came too slow for their project timeline and were frequently not what they needed. They said he seemed compelled to turn everything into OO instead of addressing the functional requirements of the project. I have no degree, but got lots of praise for my work, so... not that it's necessarily indicative, but I at least had a corroborating experience. Our project manager (who also coded there) had his degree in nuclear physics. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327601 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
BS and an MA in religion, but I was self-taught on computers since I was a kid. (good Friday thread, btw) Dominic Watson wrote: 1st Class Honours in Musical Theatre here... Of around 8-9 devs in our team over the last 18 months we had one developer with a comp science degree. He was worse than an appalling programmer, though I suspect that is not typical. Dominic 2009/10/23 Phillip Vector vec...@mostdeadlygame.com ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327602 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I have something similar, except its in Psychology. Mind you in order for me to get through graduate psych (MA and PhD - not finished yet), I had to learn to code. That said the psychology degrees were quite helpful, especially those courses dealing with cognition and perception. I've got a BA and an MA, but neither one is in CS or MIS ... Classics (Ancient Greek and Latin). The 'requirement' of CS / MIS schooling tends to come from HR, rather than IT hiring managers. Not always true, but often. Completely agree that the degree is immaterial vs the demonstrated ability to learn and to program solid software. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327603 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
AA and have taken 3 classes in programming: CFMX at Bardo, SQL at NSCC and AS2 at Evolve. I took Basic and Logo in elementary school and learned to write HTML/CSS on my own. I'm currently enrolled for Java certification at UW. I wish I could have started with a base language but most of my development education has been determined by demand. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327604 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
s. isaac dealey wrote: Just looking at ColdFusion alone, we've had a new major version every year for the past 4 years. CF 9 - 2009 CF 8 - 2008 CF 7 - 2007 CF 6 - 2006. I think you memory of the ColdFusion version's is a little compressed since I clearly remember the buzz of ColdFusion 6 back in 2000-2001. I believe that ColdFusion development cycle is two to three years per version. How is that for a side track of a side track topic. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327605 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Ian Skinner wrote: CF 9 - 2009 CF 8 - 2008 CF 7 - 2007 CF 6 - 2006. I believe that ColdFusion development cycle is two to three years per version. According to Wikipedia yes every two or three years. 2002-May : Macromedia ColdFusion MX version 6.0 2005 : Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 2007-July-30 : Adobe ColdFusion 8 2009-October-05 : Adobe ColdFusion 9 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327606 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
I have 5 degrees: - Associate of Arts (1980) - Bachelor of Music (1983) - Master of Theology (1992) and the most applicable ones for programming and business: - Masters from the School of Hard Knocks - Doctorate of PraKnApp (Practical Knowledge and Application) from the CF-Talk School of Higher Education...although, I would hardly truly qualify for a doctorate in the course material here...I just know enough to make a living as a free-lancer (what else is there a need for? :o) Rick -Original Message- From: Ian Skinner [mailto:h...@ilsweb.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:31 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education Ian Skinner wrote: CF 9 - 2009 CF 8 - 2008 CF 7 - 2007 CF 6 - 2006. I believe that ColdFusion development cycle is two to three years per version. According to Wikipedia yes every two or three years. 2002-May : Macromedia ColdFusion MX version 6.0 2005 : Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 2007-July-30 : Adobe ColdFusion 8 2009-October-05 : Adobe ColdFusion 9 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327607 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
Rick, That is so funny I have a BA in Theology, a BA in Music and I'm just shy of a master in Sociology - and here I am working in computer development :) It's not surprising how many folks have Music as a part of their skill set who are also programmers. There's a natural synergy there I think. -Mark Mark A. Kruger, CFG, MCSE (402) 408-3733 ext 105 www.cfwebtools.com www.coldfusionmuse.com www.necfug.com -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:r...@whitestonemedia.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:10 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: Education I have 5 degrees: - Associate of Arts (1980) - Bachelor of Music (1983) - Master of Theology (1992) and the most applicable ones for programming and business: - Masters from the School of Hard Knocks - Doctorate of PraKnApp (Practical Knowledge and Application) from the CF-Talk School of Higher Education...although, I would hardly truly qualify for a doctorate in the course material here...I just know enough to make a living as a free-lancer (what else is there a need for? :o) Rick -Original Message- From: Ian Skinner [mailto:h...@ilsweb.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:31 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education Ian Skinner wrote: CF 9 - 2009 CF 8 - 2008 CF 7 - 2007 CF 6 - 2006. I believe that ColdFusion development cycle is two to three years per version. According to Wikipedia yes every two or three years. 2002-May : Macromedia ColdFusion MX version 6.0 2005 : Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 2007-July-30 : Adobe ColdFusion 8 2009-October-05 : Adobe ColdFusion 9 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327608 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
It's not surprising how many folks have Music as a part of their skill set who are also programmers. There's a natural synergy there I think. BA Psychology (and 13 year CF'er) guy chiming in here: I'd agree. There've been studies done that prove that math geniuses often have brains that are physiologically similar to music geniuses. Math/logic/music/code all spring from the same brain bits. At least anecdotally, I'd say that the other part of the brain with a strong connection to code is the part responsible for language and communication. As someone who's had to do a fair amount of interviewing over the years, I can't wait until we can use F-MRI* to look for strong activity in these parts of the brain. Of course, neither of these bits necessarily come with some other important stuff...notably: people-skills, business acumen, and work-ethic. * Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Mark Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com wrote: Rick, That is so funny I have a BA in Theology, a BA in Music and I'm just shy of a master in Sociology - and here I am working in computer development :) It's not surprising how many folks have Music as a part of their skill set who are also programmers. There's a natural synergy there I think. -Mark Mark A. Kruger, CFG, MCSE (402) 408-3733 ext 105 www.cfwebtools.com www.coldfusionmuse.com www.necfug.com -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:r...@whitestonemedia.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:10 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: Education I have 5 degrees: - Associate of Arts (1980) - Bachelor of Music (1983) - Master of Theology (1992) and the most applicable ones for programming and business: - Masters from the School of Hard Knocks - Doctorate of PraKnApp (Practical Knowledge and Application) from the CF-Talk School of Higher Education...although, I would hardly truly qualify for a doctorate in the course material here...I just know enough to make a living as a free-lancer (what else is there a need for? :o) Rick -Original Message- From: Ian Skinner [mailto:h...@ilsweb.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:31 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education Ian Skinner wrote: CF 9 - 2009 CF 8 - 2008 CF 7 - 2007 CF 6 - 2006. I believe that ColdFusion development cycle is two to three years per version. According to Wikipedia yes every two or three years. 2002-May : Macromedia ColdFusion MX version 6.0 2005 : Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 2007-July-30 : Adobe ColdFusion 8 2009-October-05 : Adobe ColdFusion 9 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327609 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
I think you're right, Mark. Music, especially theory, is very logical and an lot like programming...just a different medium. If you get into orchestral composition, it's quite OO. ;o) Rick -Original Message- From: Mark Kruger [mailto:mkru...@cfwebtools.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 4:19 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: Education Rick, That is so funny I have a BA in Theology, a BA in Music and I'm just shy of a master in Sociology - and here I am working in computer development :) It's not surprising how many folks have Music as a part of their skill set who are also programmers. There's a natural synergy there I think. -Mark Mark A. Kruger, CFG, MCSE (402) 408-3733 ext 105 www.cfwebtools.com www.coldfusionmuse.com www.necfug.com -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:r...@whitestonemedia.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:10 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: Education I have 5 degrees: - Associate of Arts (1980) - Bachelor of Music (1983) - Master of Theology (1992) and the most applicable ones for programming and business: - Masters from the School of Hard Knocks - Doctorate of PraKnApp (Practical Knowledge and Application) from the CF-Talk School of Higher Education...although, I would hardly truly qualify for a doctorate in the course material here...I just know enough to make a living as a free-lancer (what else is there a need for? :o) Rick -Original Message- From: Ian Skinner [mailto:h...@ilsweb.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:31 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education Ian Skinner wrote: CF 9 - 2009 CF 8 - 2008 CF 7 - 2007 CF 6 - 2006. I believe that ColdFusion development cycle is two to three years per version. According to Wikipedia yes every two or three years. 2002-May : Macromedia ColdFusion MX version 6.0 2005 : Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 2007-July-30 : Adobe ColdFusion 8 2009-October-05 : Adobe ColdFusion 9 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327610 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
It's not surprising how many folks have Music as a part of their skill set who are also programmers. There's a natural synergy there I think. I have always been fascinated with the the similarities between musicians and computer ppl and/or programmers. The similarities are uncanny at times. The work ethic (or lack of such), the continuous/constant striving for excellence and glorification of chops, lots of off the beaten path types, a lot of off the wall/hook personalities (aka weirdos), lots of libertarians, insane amounts of creativity and drive, strong personalities and opinions, the unspoken orthodoxy, and of course the egos. Oh God the egos. G! On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Mark Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com wrote: Rick, That is so funny I have a BA in Theology, a BA in Music and I'm just shy of a master in Sociology - and here I am working in computer development :) It's not surprising how many folks have Music as a part of their skill set who are also programmers. There's a natural synergy there I think. -Mark Mark A. Kruger, CFG, MCSE (402) 408-3733 ext 105 www.cfwebtools.com www.coldfusionmuse.com www.necfug.com -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:r...@whitestonemedia.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:10 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: Education I have 5 degrees: - Associate of Arts (1980) - Bachelor of Music (1983) - Master of Theology (1992) and the most applicable ones for programming and business: - Masters from the School of Hard Knocks - Doctorate of PraKnApp (Practical Knowledge and Application) from the CF-Talk School of Higher Education...although, I would hardly truly qualify for a doctorate in the course material here...I just know enough to make a living as a free-lancer (what else is there a need for? :o) Rick -Original Message- From: Ian Skinner [mailto:h...@ilsweb.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:31 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education Ian Skinner wrote: CF 9 - 2009 CF 8 - 2008 CF 7 - 2007 CF 6 - 2006. I believe that ColdFusion development cycle is two to three years per version. According to Wikipedia yes every two or three years. 2002-May : Macromedia ColdFusion MX version 6.0 2005 : Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 2007-July-30 : Adobe ColdFusion 8 2009-October-05 : Adobe ColdFusion 9 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327611 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Music, especially theory, is very logical and an lot like programming...just a different medium. If you get into orchestral composition, it's quite OO. ;o) Interesting observation. I did not get music theory until I took physics. Gobs of math under the hood. 5ths, 3rds, 4ths 7ths... are all fractions of a sine wave. Fascinating really. G! On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.comwrote: I think you're right, Mark. Music, especially theory, is very logical and an lot like programming...just a different medium. If you get into orchestral composition, it's quite OO. ;o) Rick -Original Message- From: Mark Kruger [mailto:mkru...@cfwebtools.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 4:19 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: Education Rick, That is so funny I have a BA in Theology, a BA in Music and I'm just shy of a master in Sociology - and here I am working in computer development :) It's not surprising how many folks have Music as a part of their skill set who are also programmers. There's a natural synergy there I think. -Mark Mark A. Kruger, CFG, MCSE (402) 408-3733 ext 105 www.cfwebtools.com www.coldfusionmuse.com www.necfug.com -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:r...@whitestonemedia.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:10 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: Education I have 5 degrees: - Associate of Arts (1980) - Bachelor of Music (1983) - Master of Theology (1992) and the most applicable ones for programming and business: - Masters from the School of Hard Knocks - Doctorate of PraKnApp (Practical Knowledge and Application) from the CF-Talk School of Higher Education...although, I would hardly truly qualify for a doctorate in the course material here...I just know enough to make a living as a free-lancer (what else is there a need for? :o) Rick -Original Message- From: Ian Skinner [mailto:h...@ilsweb.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:31 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education Ian Skinner wrote: CF 9 - 2009 CF 8 - 2008 CF 7 - 2007 CF 6 - 2006. I believe that ColdFusion development cycle is two to three years per version. According to Wikipedia yes every two or three years. 2002-May : Macromedia ColdFusion MX version 6.0 2005 : Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 2007-July-30 : Adobe ColdFusion 8 2009-October-05 : Adobe ColdFusion 9 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327613 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
I'm a musician as well. scary!! Rick Faircloth wrote: I think you're right, Mark. Music, especially theory, is very logical and an lot like programming...just a different medium. If you get into orchestral composition, it's quite OO. ;o) Rick -Original Message- From: Mark Kruger [mailto:mkru...@cfwebtools.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 4:19 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: Education Rick, That is so funny I have a BA in Theology, a BA in Music and I'm just shy of a master in Sociology - and here I am working in computer development :) It's not surprising how many folks have Music as a part of their skill set who are also programmers. There's a natural synergy there I think. -Mark Mark A. Kruger, CFG, MCSE (402) 408-3733 ext 105 www.cfwebtools.com www.coldfusionmuse.com www.necfug.com -Original Message- From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:r...@whitestonemedia.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:10 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: Education I have 5 degrees: - Associate of Arts (1980) - Bachelor of Music (1983) - Master of Theology (1992) and the most applicable ones for programming and business: - Masters from the School of Hard Knocks - Doctorate of PraKnApp (Practical Knowledge and Application) from the CF-Talk School of Higher Education...although, I would hardly truly qualify for a doctorate in the course material here...I just know enough to make a living as a free-lancer (what else is there a need for? :o) Rick -Original Message- From: Ian Skinner [mailto:h...@ilsweb.com] Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 3:31 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Education Ian Skinner wrote: CF 9 - 2009 CF 8 - 2008 CF 7 - 2007 CF 6 - 2006. I believe that ColdFusion development cycle is two to three years per version. According to Wikipedia yes every two or three years. 2002-May : Macromedia ColdFusion MX version 6.0 2005 : Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 2007-July-30 : Adobe ColdFusion 8 2009-October-05 : Adobe ColdFusion 9 ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327617 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
*Raises hand* Band geek all the way. One time at band camp... Original Message Subject: RE: Education From: Mark Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com Date: Fri, October 23, 2009 3:19 pm To: cf-talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Rick, That is so funny I have a BA in Theology, a BA in Music and I'm just shy of a master in Sociology - and here I am working in computer development :) It's not surprising how many folks have Music as a part of their skill set who are also programmers. There's a natural synergy there I think. -Mark ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327619 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Education
...this story doesn't involve a flute I hope. b...@bradwood.com wrote: *Raises hand* Band geek all the way. One time at band camp... Original Message Subject: RE: Education From: Mark Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com Date: Fri, October 23, 2009 3:19 pm To: cf-talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Rick, That is so funny I have a BA in Theology, a BA in Music and I'm just shy of a master in Sociology - and here I am working in computer development :) It's not surprising how many folks have Music as a part of their skill set who are also programmers. There's a natural synergy there I think. -Mark ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327620 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Education
Rick Faircloth: I think you're right, Mark. Music, especially theory, is very logical and an lot like programming...just a different medium. If you get into orchestral composition, it's quite OO. ;o) I have a completely untested hunch that the language centers of the brain have more growth in musicians and programmers than in the general public. It seems like sheet music / music theory and coding / programming theory both are fundamentally about the interpretation of symbols, so it seems like language development would be the logical neurological link between them. Friend of mine is a hardware / networking guy, but doesn't do any programming because he says he just can't retain it. He also happens to have a tin-ear. ;) I think part of the difference there may also be the ability to visualize the model. In hardware / networking there are actual physical objects that connect together in a particular, specific way, but with programming (as with language), that's not the case. Like lines of code, words can be fit together in rather arbitrary and novel ways. So instead of having a solid mental model of a large system, what you have is lots of smaller mental models of an individual units in that system (a word or a component). Instead of having solid, well-known relationships between the units, their relationships are ambiguous and constantly open to interpretation or redefinition. Jazz anyone? ;) -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327622 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Education
John M. Bliss: At least anecdotally, I'd say that the other part of the brain with a strong connection to code is the part responsible for language and communication. D'oh! Should have replied to this one instead. ;) -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327623 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
-Re: Education
Eric Cobb: Heh...nuclear physics...ColdFusioncoincidence? I think not! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion Yeah, he mentioned that one day when we were talking about his background. He said he'd kind of stumbled into the job, was working in an office somewhere and a guy came in and said what do you know about ColdFusion and of course his first response was uh... I've heard about it. But of course, he was thinking about a source of energy. ;) -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327624 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Education
Speaking as a non-musician. Actually I think I really am onejust never had the time to keep playing ;-) I love music and in life and work all I see are patterns and how things fit or could fitwhich to me sounds a lot like what Isaac said here: Like lines of code, words can be fit together in rather arbitrary and novel ways. So instead of having a solid mental model of a large system, what you have is lots of smaller mental models of an individual units in that system (a word or a component). Instead of having solid, well-known relationships between the units, their relationships are ambiguous and constantly open to interpretation or redefinition. It's just like in A Beautiful Mind where Nash saw the patterns in encrypted documents etc. (not that I am in any way in the same league...but you get my drift). I just see it all in my head and mess with it there before writing the code. Kinda drives people nuts when I go away in my head for a bit and come back with a solution to a problem ;-) Happy Friday! Cheers - Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: br...@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com Notice: This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327625 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
That said the psychology degrees were quite helpful, especially those courses dealing with cognition and perception. I really wish I'd paid more attention to your comments on the lists a few years ago. ;) -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327626 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Ian Skinner: I think you memory of the ColdFusion version's is a little compressed since I clearly remember the buzz of ColdFusion 6 back in 2000-2001. That doesn't surprise me... :) I didn't go check, I was just throwing off the top of my head. But I could still easily see someone being 2 major versions behind when they graduate if they just had a 4-year degree plan. p.s. Isn't there a documented bias in which people compress history, remembering things as having happened for a shorter period of time than they actually did? It seems like I remember reading about it, but now I can't find it in Wikipedia's list of biases. ;) -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327627 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Education
Well Ike, there are only 12 notes (words) in western music. Hell of a language where almost all the meaning is in the timber, cadence and inflection. Odd how something that is essentially a mathematical construct with a vocabulary of 12 words can convey nearly an infinite shades of meaning. But none the less some interpretations of even the most beautiful compositions known to humanity can still make giggle uncontrollably http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12rioESy2fgfeature=related G! On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 8:13 PM, s. isaac dealey i...@turnkey.to wrote: Rick Faircloth: I think you're right, Mark. Music, especially theory, is very logical and an lot like programming...just a different medium. If you get into orchestral composition, it's quite OO. ;o) I have a completely untested hunch that the language centers of the brain have more growth in musicians and programmers than in the general public. It seems like sheet music / music theory and coding / programming theory both are fundamentally about the interpretation of symbols, so it seems like language development would be the logical neurological link between them. Friend of mine is a hardware / networking guy, but doesn't do any programming because he says he just can't retain it. He also happens to have a tin-ear. ;) I think part of the difference there may also be the ability to visualize the model. In hardware / networking there are actual physical objects that connect together in a particular, specific way, but with programming (as with language), that's not the case. Like lines of code, words can be fit together in rather arbitrary and novel ways. So instead of having a solid mental model of a large system, what you have is lots of smaller mental models of an individual units in that system (a word or a component). Instead of having solid, well-known relationships between the units, their relationships are ambiguous and constantly open to interpretation or redefinition. Jazz anyone? ;) -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327628 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Education
On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: Well Ike, there are only 12 notes (words) in western music. Hell of a language where almost all the meaning is in the timber, cadence and inflection. Odd how something that is essentially a mathematical construct with a vocabulary of 12 words can convey nearly an infinite shades of meaning. The words, however, modulated by pitch become something else and when combined into repeating and overlapping combinations...well...it can be pretty sublime. Heck, Western music is positively verbose compared to DNA. Consider the ammino acids, the base pairs, that make up RNA and DNA and then consider what can be made of those. Recombination and repetition can produce surprising beauty and complexity. Indeed, it is almost always the only thing that does. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327631 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Well Ike, there are only 12 notes (words) in western music. Hell of a language where almost all the meaning is in the timber, cadence and inflection. There is that. Although I was thinking more particularly about sheet music and things like timing, how 4/4 makes the meaning of the placement of the notes in the rest of the stanza different than 2/2 -- you'll have to forgive me if I'm butchering the lingo, it's been years since I've played a piano. ;) But spoken language is similar in that context can often dramatically change the interpretation of the individual words. And we do the same thing again in programming -- polymorphism springs to mind. shape.draw() circle.draw() square.draw() -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327633 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
Judah McAuley: Recombination and repetition can produce surprising beauty and complexity. Indeed, it is almost always the only thing that does. I'm suddenly reminded of an unrelated Margaret Mead quote. :) -- s. isaac dealey :: AutLabs Creating meaningful employment for people with Autism http://www.autlabs.com ph: 817.385.0301 http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327634 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: While I put a high premium on autodidacticism, there is some thing to be said having a college degree. Namely, that during the period of life when one is most prone to screwing up, they managed to commit to some thing and follow through with it. ;) I think this is the major (only?) value of requiring a college degree for a job, especially if you're looking for someone junior. When I am hiring, if someone has 5+ years of experience, I don't care about their degree (or lack of). Less than 5 years, I want a degree to show they can focus and learn something (anything). Me? I have a BSc with 1st Class Honors in Mathematics and Computer Science and three years research into functional language design and implementation techniques (I didn't write up because my supervisor and I went in different directions on the research about halfway through). My first few jobs all leveraged my academic skills very heavily (compiler / virtual machine writing in one form or another - some years before Java appeared and made the JVM popular). But I know I'm not typical, even in the broader IT world... :( The CF community probably has the broadest set of backgrounds of any programming group I've encountered, outside of the COBOL community (strangely... or not... they're both languages designed to allow business-focused people to Get Stuff Done). -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN Railo Technologies US -- http://getrailo.com/ An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327635 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Education
Well Ike, there are only 12 notes (words) in western music. Actually there are 12 divisions to the octave in almost all music. Different cultures tend to use various modes to define their scale. (Lydian, Dorian, Mixolydian, etc) And then a broad range of simple triads or more complex chords can be built on that. Jazz anyone? ;) So, what's free-form jazz? Is that kind of like when you just make up code and hope it compiles? ~Brad ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327636 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Education
So, what's free-form jazz? Is that kind of like when you just make up code and hope it compiles? Pretty much. ;) 'cept for Coltrane and Miles. G! -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com Wait. We can't stop here. This is bat country. -- HST ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:327637 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
