Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[John Paul Ashenfelter]

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:30:37 -0500, Robert Bailey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I second that one, I have never had a problem finding any errors in any
> FB code I have written. Usually the error or the debug is more then
> enough.
> 
> As for maintenance, it depends on if you inherited the site after some
> @*^$ got finished applying his new knowledge from "ColdFusion for
> Dummies" and figured they should write the app in FB because they heard
> about it on some website, heh.

While there were certainly problems with CF4 For Dummies, CFMX for
Dummies was *much* better and included a chapter on Fusebox... of
course I'm biased since I'm coauthor on both books. Still doesn't
excuse how awful the first one was (not my fault -- my chapters were
decent...)

Not that I'm defensive :) There are still plenty of sites I've
inherited that I *wish* someone had read ColdFusion for Dummies before
writing it. Or programming for dummies. Or HTML for dummies. Or SQL
for Dummies.

Maybe the problem is that they're inherently dummies :)
 
> Then the problems come in :)
> 
> We can go on about that one
> 
> 
> Robert Bailey
> Internal Systems
> Software Engineer
> 813-230-9967 \\ mobile
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.recruitmax.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Michael T. Tangorre [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:24 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: RE: Plum vs Adalon?
> 
> > From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > What bugs me with FB is that it takes hours just to figure
> > out in WHICH %$/"? template is the piece of code you need to
> > modify. So if maintenance easiness was the concern, they
> > totally missed the point.
> 
> This surprises me as maintenance in FB is much easier as far as I am
> concerned. If you have proper error/exception handling in place as well
> as a
> properly structured FB app, finding out where an issue is takes about 2
> seconds.
> 
> 

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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Michael T. Tangorre]

> From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Don't you feel like an  ass ? ;-)

It is better to keep quiet and be considered a fool than to speak out and
prove that.





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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Claude Schneegans]

 >>Went back to my simple, basic architecture and felt much better.

Don't you feel like an  ass ? ;-)

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Re: [OT, Python Quote] Plum vs Fusebox4.1/Mach-II (was "RE: Plum vs Adalon?")

[Scott Barnes]

To be blunt and i've been on Plum since i think adam invited me ages
past, I really dig the concept and cannot fault it for what its
achieved.

I do however hold back in reservation as simply put: I don't have the
time or energy to inherit something ontop of a language that  has its
own set of problems and issues. I've been thinking a lot as of late on
what i expect out of a framework or "extension" if you will via the
WEB/COLDFUSION and in the end I just want something light thats agile
enough for me to bolt on anything when it comes to the innerds.

Mach-II is much much more agile then plum in regards to ease of use
and comparing the two is like apples and plums (hehe couldn't resist).

PLUM in many ways is like a Developers CMS / IDE for automated mundane
tasks that we do day in day out and lets face it, get sick of rolling.
When given a project i tend to want to get straight into the hard
part, but like my Guidance Counselor in high school once said "do the
easy tasks first, then come back and do the hard ones last as if you
run out of time, you have gotten more work done in the end" didn't
understand at the time but daily in CFMX i find myself having to put
in stupid time to get to the point of writing the "hard stuff" and by
this time (I'm sure others would agree) you're basically over the
concept.

PLUM by appearances (i'm only 1 project in so i reserve the right to
change my un-informed opinion) seems to fast track you through the
crappy tasks and focus on the guts of it all.

I am still hanging out for the day when i can put together an XML
based concept that automates my view/presenter/partial model allowing
me time and energy to focus on the integration part(s) server-side. As
thats where the money is needed the most.

FLEX offers that in some way, and PLUM seems to hint and being in many
ways a similiar alternative (sure technologies are different).

So yeah Mach-II is different in so many ways and i wouldn't bother
trying to compare the two.

(PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS AN IGNORANT OPINION, I'VE USED IT ON AND OFF BUT
I CAN HONESTLY SAY, I HAVE MORE WORK AHEAD OF ME IN ITS USE hehehe).
-- 
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Roger B.]

> i dunno, go to myspace.com and do a few searches, that fusebox app rarely 
> runs right (or could be the developers) if at all.

Dave: The fact that their app contains an extra switch/case or three
over a non-FB app is unlikely to have any material impact on their
uptime or performance. Assuming they have problems (I just browsed
around and everything seemed snappy), they're far more likely to be
just like everyone else's problems... DB bottlenecks, unexpected
subscriber growth, intentional or accidental DoS, etc.

--
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free blog hosting for MX people
http://mxblogspace.journurl.com/

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Will Tomlinson]

Damn, I made the mistake of reading this one from the bottom up! 
I messed with FB a little, and it messed my mind up. Went back to my simple, 
basic architecture and felt much better. 

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Aaron Rouse]

depending on what you like, you can point your fingers in any
direction that pleases you :)


On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:53:22 -0500, dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> i dunno, go to myspace.com and do a few searches, that fusebox app rarely 
> runs right (or could be the developers) if at all.
> 
> 
> From: "Damien McKenna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:45 PM
> To: CF-Talk 
> Subject: RE: Plum vs Adalon?
> 
> Any web application will be slow on a 486 ;-)
> 
> Honestly speaking, in today's world of 2ghz machines being considered
> *low* end I don't think that speed should be the concern it was back
> when servers were 200MHz. We run lots of Fusebox 3 apps on our server
> (dual 1ghz xeon) and the only time they're slow is when they query the
> slow COBOL system.
> 
> --
> Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
> #include
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:26 PM
> > To: CF-Talk
> > Subject: Re: Plum vs Adalon?
> >
> > now when i think of fusebox i think of myspace.com and thats
> > gotta be the worse performing cfm app i have ever seen.
> 
> 

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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[dave]

i dunno, go to myspace.com and do a few searches, that fusebox app rarely runs 
right (or could be the developers) if at all.


From: "Damien McKenna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:45 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: RE: Plum vs Adalon? 

Any web application will be slow on a 486 ;-)

Honestly speaking, in today's world of 2ghz machines being considered
*low* end I don't think that speed should be the concern it was back
when servers were 200MHz. We run lots of Fusebox 3 apps on our server
(dual 1ghz xeon) and the only time they're slow is when they query the
slow COBOL system.

-- 
Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
#include 

> -Original Message-
> From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:26 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Plum vs Adalon?
> 
> now when i think of fusebox i think of myspace.com and thats 
> gotta be the worse performing cfm app i have ever seen.



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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Damien McKenna]

Any web application will be slow on a 486 ;-)

Honestly speaking, in today's world of 2ghz machines being considered
*low* end I don't think that speed should be the concern it was back
when servers were 200MHz.  We run lots of Fusebox 3 apps on our server
(dual 1ghz xeon) and the only time they're slow is when they query the
slow COBOL system.

-- 
Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
#include 
 

> -Original Message-
> From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:26 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Plum vs Adalon?
> 
> now when i think of fusebox i think of myspace.com and thats 
> gotta be the worse performing cfm app i have ever seen.

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[OT, Python Quote] Plum vs Fusebox4.1/Mach-II (was "RE: Plum vs Adalon?")

[Joe Rinehart]

"We are all individuals."

"I'm not!"


On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:59:35 +0800, James Holmes
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Follow the gourd!"
> 
> "No, Follow the sandal!"
> 
> 

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[dave]

dang hes sure had a bugger up his bum lately!
 he lashed out at me too, course couldnt back it up, so..

 ::grabs popcorn to watch this one ::


From: Claude Schneegans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:01 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: Plum vs Adalon? 

>>I think you are just being an ass

Sorry, but if you need insults to make your point, I won't follow you in 
that direction. 

-- 
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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Michael T. Tangorre]

> From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sorry, but if you need insults to make your point, I won't 
> follow you in 
> that direction. 

Ok Claude, no problem. Good luck.



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RE: Plum vs Fusebox4.1/Mach-II (was "RE: Plum vs Adalon?")

[James Holmes]

"Follow the gourd!"

"No, Follow the sandal!"

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Claude Schneegans]

 >>I think you are just being an ass

Sorry, but if you need insults to make your point, I won't follow you in 
that direction. 

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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Michael T. Tangorre]

> From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
> I just said I was upgrading a FB application. So at least I 
> have an example.
> Does it take years to understand and know the principles of FB?
> Then how can it help?

Well it would seem that after 9 years of coding, when you encountered
something you obviously knew little about, you would spend some time trying
to understand it before making the kinds of statements you've been making.
It is apparent you have not taken any significant time to learn anything
about Fusebox. Personally, I think you are just being an ass because you
realize that Fusebox "could" be beneficial but you aren't up to speed on it
so you are putting up this transparent defense by dissing it all afternoon.
I am not defending it anymore so you can justify your inability to take 30
minutes out of your seemingly busy day to maybe head over to fusebox.org and
enlighten yourself! I have taken enough time to know that for me, it is
beneficial.

Enjoy!





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Re: Plum vs Fusebox4.1/Mach-II (was "RE: Plum vs Adalon?")

[Sean Corfield]

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:23:26 -0500, Joe Rinehart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Because my opinion doesn't match
> yours is no reason to call me ignorant or uninformed.

I have to say that Adam's habit of jumping on anyone who dares to
criticize Plum is getting a bit tiring. I made some comments about it
and he jumped straight down my throat (and later he apologized).

Adam, I think you need to chill a bit dude. Plum is not for everyone.
Fusebox is not for everyone. Mach II is not for everyone. Don't get
upset when some people say they don't like what Plum does or doesn't
do for them.
-- 
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Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/
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Re: Plum vs Fusebox4.1/Mach-II (was "RE: Plum vs Adalon?")

[Sean Corfield]

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:53:51 -0500, Adam Churvis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The best way for everyone to assess this is to download and install Plum,
> then thorooughly read the Plum documentation.

Assuming you are running a Windows machine with .NET installed...
-- 
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Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/
Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme
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"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Claude Schneegans]

>>9 years, none of which touch on FB... so how can you justify making comments
about the Framework?

I just said I was upgrading a FB application. So at least I have an example.
Does it take years to understand and know the principles of FB?
Then how can it help?


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Re: Plum vs Fusebox4.1/Mach-II (was "RE: Plum vs Adalon?")

[Scott Stroz]

I also tried Plum during the beta phase. 
I didn't like it...then again, I don't like lobster either. (and in
both cases, I don't get all the hype)



On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:23:26 -0500, Joe Rinehart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You're missing 90% of Plum, Joe.
> 
> Adam, you're very much underestimating what I've done with Plum.  I
> wouldn't talk about it if I hadn't looked at it in great detail.  I've
> probably looked at the docs more extensively than most of your users,
> examined the custom tag library, used tools like the component and
> storedproc generator, read the Plum methodology (I think FLiP has you
> beat), and I can even tell you what "Help" node is simply labelled
> "Psych!".  I took a great interest in Plum in its Beta stages because
> it similar to something I was thinking of releasing.
> 
> This post asked for a comparison between Plum and other frameworks /
> tools.  I wouldn't add my opinion if I didn't feel I was informed
> enough to have one.  I'm probably in a better place to compare FB and
> Plum than most users of either.  Because my opinion doesn't match
> yours is no reason to call me ignorant or uninformed.
> 
> --
> For Tabs, Trees, and more, use the jComponents:
> http://clearsoftware.net/client/jComponents.cfm
> 
> 

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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Calvin Ward]

I particularly enjoyed the use of the word 'uninitiated'.

I'm familiar with Fusebox, where's my robe since I'm an initiate?!?

At any rate, after having used Fusebox 3 for the last 6 months on a number
of already developed apps, I can say that there are good ways and bad ways
to build a Fusebox application, but nor am I sold on Fusebox as a solution I
would specifically choose.

However, I would choose Fusebox over no framework/methodology.

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Spike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:33 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Plum vs Adalon?

> 
> 
> The question is not being in favor or not. The question is that the
approach claims
> it will make the application easier to follow, and I find the application
much harder to follow.
> Ok, "it is because the FB application was not properly structured", but
isn't FB supposed
> to precisely make the application easier to structure ?
> Ok, "the FB progammer was dumb"? But isn't FB supposed to make the task
easier for programers?
> I don't know what failed, only what I can say from the result is that, in
that particular case, 
> it is a failure. 
> 

I don't know that Fusebox necessarily makes any claims about making the 
application easier for the uninitiated to follow. From the fusebox.org site:

"the system addresses development problems such as unmanageable 
complexity, wasteful redundancy of effort, time-consuming code 
maintenance, and slow development speed. "

I'm not a fusebox zealot, but I think it does achieve those goals when 
used properly. Like any tool, in the hands of someone who doesn't know 
what they're doing it can just add an extra layer of indirection making 
it harder to follow the code. The same is true of any structured 
approach, not just Fusebox.

Spike

--

Stephen Milligan
Code poet for hire
http://www.spike.org.uk

Do you cfeclipse? http://cfeclipse.tigris.org



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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Michael T. Tangorre]

> From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> The question is not being in favor or not. The question is 
> that the approach claims it will make the application easier 
> to follow, and I find the application much harder to follow.
> Ok, "it is because the FB application was not properly 
> structured", but isn't FB supposed to precisely make the 
> application easier to structure ?
> Ok, "the FB progammer was dumb"? But isn't FB supposed to 
> make the task easier for programers?
> I don't know what failed, only what I can say from the result 
> is that, in that particular case, it is a failure. 

Seems like it was a poorly architected FB application.

> Not only I'm open, I have read the books, of course, and even 
> back in 95 the whole CF documentation
> when it was only a MS Word document for version 1.1 or 1.2 if 
> I remember well. 

The fusebox books? If so you would know that FB doesn't do anything for the
programmer automatically. The programmer has to take the conepts and
implement them, which is where I think the application you experienced fell
short; the programmer did not do a good job setting things up and organizing
the app... (following the framework).

> No, but I do have about 9 years experience with CF, and I can 
> definitely 
> appreciate if an approach makes things easier for me with CF or not.
> The only things I sometimes still find not really easy with 
> CF are absolutely not covered
> by FB anyway.

9 years, none of which touch on FB... so how can you justify making comments
about the Framework? No comments you make will hold weight because you are
comparing your experience against your assumptions of the framework...
doesn't make sense.




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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Spike]

> 
> 
> The question is not being in favor or not. The question is that the approach 
> claims
> it will make the application easier to follow, and I find the application 
> much harder to follow.
> Ok, "it is because the FB application was not properly structured", but isn't 
> FB supposed
> to precisely make the application easier to structure ?
> Ok, "the FB progammer was dumb"? But isn't FB supposed to make the task 
> easier for programers?
> I don't know what failed, only what I can say from the result is that, in 
> that particular case, 
> it is a failure. 
> 

I don't know that Fusebox necessarily makes any claims about making the 
application easier for the uninitiated to follow. From the fusebox.org site:

"the system addresses development problems such as unmanageable 
complexity, wasteful redundancy of effort, time-consuming code 
maintenance, and slow development speed. "

I'm not a fusebox zealot, but I think it does achieve those goals when 
used properly. Like any tool, in the hands of someone who doesn't know 
what they're doing it can just add an extra layer of indirection making 
it harder to follow the code. The same is true of any structured 
approach, not just Fusebox.

Spike

--

Stephen Milligan
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http://www.spike.org.uk

Do you cfeclipse? http://cfeclipse.tigris.org

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Claude Schneegans]

 >>Fusebox is a tool, like a hammer. Any tool is only

>>worth the hands of its holder.  With a hammer, it's just as easy to
>>accidently destroy your thumb as it is to hammer in a nail.

C'mon, fuses, circuits, now hammers,... enough with metaphors, periphases and 
parabolas ;-)
If FB is like a hammer, the nail should be knocked in more easily and more 
correctly, 
than with no hammer, no?

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[dave]

now when i think of fusebox i think of myspace.com and thats gotta be the worse 
performing cfm app i have ever seen.


From: Joe Rinehart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:01 PM
To: CF-Talk 
Subject: Re: Plum vs Adalon? 

> > - when you look at the source code, find what's wrong, it
> > takes hours to figure out which actual template the code comes from.

Fusedocs exist for a reason.

> That could stem from one of two things: a poorly structured FB application
> or an uninformed developer in regards to FB.

Right on, Mike. Fusebox is a tool, like a hammer. Any tool is only
worth the hands of its holder. With a hammer, it's just as easy to
accidently destroy your thumb as it is to hammer in a nail.

Using a tool like Fusebox, Mach-II, or even (ok, I'll say it) Plum at
least makes maintenance easier by giving developers a common starting
point. The flipside of that is that you have to know how to use the
tool.

It'd be a weirdly built world if we all used our own hammers built our own way.

-Joe

-- 
For Tabs, Trees, and more, use the jComponents:
http://clearsoftware.net/client/jComponents.cfm



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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Claude Schneegans]

 >>You can't discredit an  application or the ability to easily follow 
it just bacause you are not in

>>favor of the approach.

The question is not being in favor or not. The question is that the approach 
claims
it will make the application easier to follow, and I find the application much 
harder to follow.
Ok, "it is because the FB application was not properly structured", but isn't 
FB supposed
to precisely make the application easier to structure ?
Ok, "the FB progammer was dumb"? But isn't FB supposed to make the task easier 
for programers?
I don't know what failed, only what I can say from the result is that, in that 
particular case, 
it is a failure. 


 >>I would say that if you are not open to learning above and beyond the 
first

>>5 chapters of the CF WACK then you are in the wrong field. 

Not only I'm open, I have read the books, of course, and even back in 95 the 
whole CF documentation
when it was only a MS Word document for version 1.1 or 1.2 if I remember well. 


 >>I am not sure you are in position to even make such a claim 
considering your

>>have very little experience with Fusebox. 

No, but I do have about 9 years experience with CF, and I can definitely 
appreciate if an approach makes things easier for me with CF or not.
The only things I sometimes still find not really easy with CF are absolutely 
not covered
by FB anyway.


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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Joe Rinehart]

> > - when you look at the source code, find what's wrong, it
> > takes hours to figure out which actual template the code comes from.

Fusedocs exist for a reason.

> That could stem from one of two things: a poorly structured FB application
> or an uninformed developer in regards to FB.

Right on, Mike.  Fusebox is a tool, like a hammer.  Any tool is only
worth the hands of its holder.  With a hammer, it's just as easy to
accidently destroy your thumb as it is to hammer in a nail.

Using a tool like Fusebox, Mach-II, or even (ok, I'll say it) Plum at
least makes maintenance easier by giving developers a common starting
point.  The flipside of that is that you have to know how to use the
tool.

It'd be a weirdly built world if we all used our own hammers built our own way.

-Joe

-- 
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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Michael T. Tangorre]

> From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

> - too many files are included,

Are you looking at FB4? The only included files there come from the circuit
files or the parsed fuseactions which you do not directly access anyway
so not sure how this is a valid point.

> - templates names are almost never explicit, but in variables defined 5 or
6 includes back,

Interesting... 

qry_selectRegisteredUsers.cfm
act_sendNewsletter.cfm
dsp_confirmation.cfm

What is so hard about the above names?

> - when you look at the source code, find what's wrong, it 
> takes hours to figure out which actual template the code comes from.

That could stem from one of two things: a poorly structured FB application
or an uninformed developer in regards to FB.




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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Michael T. Tangorre]

> From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> This may very well be true, and this is exactly the trouble.
> A good CF application, I'd say ANY application written in ANY 
> language, should be easily followed by any one who is good 
> enough in the language.

I don't think you will find anyone who disagrees with that! However, keep in
mind that there are many ways to achieve the same end result in programming
so even though you might have a decent command of the language, you may run
into times when you don't follow the approach because you would have chosen
a different one yourself. For instance, I use Fusebox with application A and
you come along and say you don't know what the hell is going on that
does not mean either of us is any less of a programmer, it simply means we
do not agree on the approach taken even though there is nothing wrong with
the approach that was taken! You follow me? You can't discredit an
application or the ability to easily follow it just bacause you are not in
favor of the approach.

> If he needs to learn some dialect above the language, plus a 
> religion about the language, then it makes everything 
> complicated for nothing and maintenance more difficult.

I would say that if you are not open to learning above and beyond the first
5 chapters of the CF WACK then you are in the wrong field. There will ALWAYS
be better ways to do things and shorter, faster, more efficient means to
reach the end. Not everyone is going to code like you nor can you expect
that. Either expand your knowledge and deal with the fact that the ability
to do things differently exists or refrain from making such ridiculous
claims such "complicated for nothing" and "maintenance more difficult". I
have worked on many applications, not necessarily Fusebox related whereby
they were solid and easily maintained and expanded and some not so. Same
goes for FB apps.
 
> The second point is that I'm not convinced that it makes 
> things easier even for those familiar with the framework, 
> even if they all claim it does. 

I am not sure you are in position to even make such a claim considering your
have very little experience with Fusebox. I would also venture to say that
the people who do use Fusebox would disagree with you about the framework
NOT making things easier. It sure does make things easier and more organized
or people wouldn't use it!




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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Aaron Rouse]

I understand your second point, whether it is valid or not is probably
in the eye of the beholders.

As far as Plum from what I gathered in the descriptions, it actually
would be a well loved tool around here.  Not necessarily by me, but by
some of the people in this group.

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:19:04 -0500, Claude Schneegans
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The second point is that I'm not convinced that it makes things easier even 
> for those
> familiar with the framework, even if they all claim it does.
>

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Claude Schneegans]

 >>just wondering if this is a case where if someone was then they could 
follow it easily.

This may very well be true, and this is exactly the trouble.
A good CF application, I'd say ANY application written in ANY language,
should be easily followed by any one who is good enough in the language.
If he needs to learn some dialect above the language, plus a religion about the 
language,
then it makes everything complicated for nothing and maintenance more difficult.

The second point is that I'm not convinced that it makes things easier even for 
those
familiar with the framework, even if they all claim it does. 

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Claude Schneegans]

 >>If the FB app is structured properly and you can read

It is not the fact that the app is structured properly or not; As a matter of 
fact, 
I think it is.
The problem is with the concept of the structure itself: it is sometimes 10 
times more complicated
than the whole application itself.
- too many files are included,
- templates names are almost never explicit, but in variables defined 5 or 6 
includes back,
- when you look at the source code, find what's wrong, it takes hours to figure 
out which actual template
the code comes from.

>>down through a circuit file, it should be a matter of adding a couple fuses
and away you go.

The problem is that I'm no electrician, just a programmer ;-)


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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Charlie Griefer]

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:13:51 -0500, Joe Rinehart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
> This is a complete aside, but shouldn't the "owner" of generated code
> be the developer using it?  As it is, every generated page comes out
> "This code is Copyright (c) 2004 by Productivity Enhancement, Inc."
> I'm not sure if you meant to do this, but the legal implications of
> this are enough to bar me from commercial use.

Ah HA!  That's why they're giving PLUM away for free...it's a covert
attempt to take ownership of ALL content on the Internet.

sly those churvis boys are :)

(sorry...just trying to lighten the convo up a bit)

-- 
Charlie Griefer


Marta was watching the football game with me when she said, 
"You know, most of these sports are based on the idea of one group 
protecting its territory from invasion by another group." 
"Yeah," I said, trying not to laugh. Girls are funny.

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Adam Churvis]

> >As it is, every generated page comes out
> >"This code is Copyright (c) 2004 by Productivity Enhancement, Inc."
>
> Surely this cannot be true!

Oversight on our part.  The copyright should just appear in the pre-fabbed
framework code.  I don't think we have to get the Hague involved on this one
;)

> >From my observation and in regards to past threads on Plum, it seems
> like they still cannot accurately say who they are targeting with this
> product. It surely isnt targeted at developers.

It's targeted to any developer who wants to use it.  Why are you so
concerned with our targeting a market?

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Adam Churvis]

> This is a complete aside, but shouldn't the "owner" of generated code
> be the developer using it?  As it is, every generated page comes out
> "This code is Copyright (c) 2004 by Productivity Enhancement, Inc."
> I'm not sure if you meant to do this, but the legal implications of
> this are enough to bar me from commercial use.

The terms of use are detailed in the EULA; the copyright really ought to be
just in the building blocks, so we'll remove it from the generated code and
just keep it in the pre-fabbed framework code in V1.1.

Thanks for pointing this out, Joe.

Also, you and I should talk sometime on the phone regarding how Plum uses
the DatabaseBlocks CFC and how it might use an alternate method in the
future.  I'm not totally fixed on using the generalized DatabaseBlocks
methods as the only method to interact with the database.  I'm at
770-446-8866 if you have some time and you want to chat.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Spike]

I would agree with everything Joe says here.

Plum certainly has it's place in the market. How big that place is I 
don't know, but I'm sure a lot of people will find it useful to them.

Having written a few frameworks myself and used quite a few others I 
know what works for me and a fundamental requirement is that ease of 
maintenance should be a primary consideration for all aspects of the 
application. That's why I share Joe's concerns about the commingling of 
display and business logic. If any application logic has to be repeated 
in multiple places maintenance becomes more difficult, but often the 
only way to avoid that is to build abstraction into the core of the 
application. Unfortunately Plum doesn't really allow for much in the way 
of abstraction and actively gets in the way in a lot of cases.

The downside of all that abstraction is that it takes more time and 
effort to get the thing built in the first place, and documenting the 
application becomes more important. If you get it right though, it 
*always* seems to pay for itself in the long run.

The market reality is that a lot of people could care less about 
abstraction of logic and building for maintenance. They have app 
requirements and they need the app done quickly. Often, even if they do 
have the time to build the app, they often don't have the experience to 
know what will work and what won't. Without having your fingers burnt by 
experience a few times it is very difficult to know beforehand whether 
an approach is a good one or not.

This, of course is only opinion based on *my* experience, not fact. If 
you disagree you no doubt have your own reasons and I'm certainly not 
going to tell you you're wrong. Unless you're working for me of course ;)

Spike


Joe Rinehart wrote:
> Adam,
> 
> I'm not trying to attack Plum.  If I was, I'd say something silly and
> offensive.  My observations come after using Plum, trying it out, and
> taking some of its guts apart.
> 
> 
>>The way it works,
>>what it contains, how applications are organized, and how Plum applications
>>are written.
> 
> 
> The way it works simply isn't what I'd find ideal.  There's so
> seperation of logic - a page is responsible for both is view and its
> business logic, making that an "atomic capsule."  If Plum generated
> data access and possibly business object CFCs for the tables it
> represented, and its tags instead used those, I could then at least
> reuse the business logic and data access portions elsewhere without
> having to reinvent the wheel.
> 
> This is a step backwards from the point of frameworks like Fusebox and
> Mach-II, and is exactly why Plum can be compared to neither.  Plum
> generates code that maintains a status quo of spaghetti code,
> requiring custom business logic to be spread throughout the
> presentation layer.
> 
> 
>>Please, before you go spreading FUD due to a lack of understanding, please
>>either seriously learn about the product
> 
> 
> I'm not spreading unfounded FUD - I've looked at your product in fair
> depth.  I'm not going to delve into a technical discussion of its
> mechanics, but I've examined them in detail.
> 
> I've been using Plum since the first public beta.  I haven't done
> anything terribly complicated with it, but I've built some basic CRUD
> and master/detail applications with verity searching, and played with
> content management, which is what I imagine most Plum users would find
> to be about their extend of its use.
> 
> 
>>Try not to prejudice others who haven't even looked yet.
> 
> 
> Anyone who puts a product into the open marketplace must expect find
> opinions contrary their own marketing.   As some say, "any publicity
> is good publicity."
> 
> As I said earlier, "I can see Plum being useful for basic, CRUD
> applications."  And I can.  It's mind-numbingly easy to create simple
> or master/detail CRUD app.  However, what I think is missing is a
> plug-in point where I can add business logic to my business units
> without having to continually reinvent the wheel.  I really think Plum
> could be quite powerful if it looked into using CFC-based
> representations of the tables it acted upon.
> 
> This is a complete aside, but shouldn't the "owner" of generated code
> be the developer using it?  As it is, every generated page comes out
> "This code is Copyright (c) 2004 by Productivity Enhancement, Inc." 
> I'm not sure if you meant to do this, but the legal implications of
> this are enough to bar me from commercial use.
> 
> With respect,
> 
> Joe
> 
> 

-- 
--

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Do you cfeclipse? http://cfeclipse.tigris.org

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Adrocknaphobia]

>As it is, every generated page comes out
>"This code is Copyright (c) 2004 by Productivity Enhancement, Inc."

Surely this cannot be true!

>From my observation and in regards to past threads on Plum, it seems
like they still cannot accurately say who they are targeting with this
product. It surely isnt targeted at developers.

-Adam


On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:13:51 -0500, Joe Rinehart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Adam,
> 
> I'm not trying to attack Plum.  If I was, I'd say something silly and
> offensive.  My observations come after using Plum, trying it out, and
> taking some of its guts apart.
> 
> > The way it works,
> > what it contains, how applications are organized, and how Plum applications
> > are written.
> 
> The way it works simply isn't what I'd find ideal.  There's so
> seperation of logic - a page is responsible for both is view and its
> business logic, making that an "atomic capsule."  If Plum generated
> data access and possibly business object CFCs for the tables it
> represented, and its tags instead used those, I could then at least
> reuse the business logic and data access portions elsewhere without
> having to reinvent the wheel.
> 
> This is a step backwards from the point of frameworks like Fusebox and
> Mach-II, and is exactly why Plum can be compared to neither.  Plum
> generates code that maintains a status quo of spaghetti code,
> requiring custom business logic to be spread throughout the
> presentation layer.
> 
> > Please, before you go spreading FUD due to a lack of understanding, please
> > either seriously learn about the product
> 
> I'm not spreading unfounded FUD - I've looked at your product in fair
> depth.  I'm not going to delve into a technical discussion of its
> mechanics, but I've examined them in detail.
> 
> I've been using Plum since the first public beta.  I haven't done
> anything terribly complicated with it, but I've built some basic CRUD
> and master/detail applications with verity searching, and played with
> content management, which is what I imagine most Plum users would find
> to be about their extend of its use.
> 
> > Try not to prejudice others who haven't even looked yet.
> 
> Anyone who puts a product into the open marketplace must expect find
> opinions contrary their own marketing.   As some say, "any publicity
> is good publicity."
> 
> As I said earlier, "I can see Plum being useful for basic, CRUD
> applications."  And I can.  It's mind-numbingly easy to create simple
> or master/detail CRUD app.  However, what I think is missing is a
> plug-in point where I can add business logic to my business units
> without having to continually reinvent the wheel.  I really think Plum
> could be quite powerful if it looked into using CFC-based
> representations of the tables it acted upon.
> 
> This is a complete aside, but shouldn't the "owner" of generated code
> be the developer using it?  As it is, every generated page comes out
> "This code is Copyright (c) 2004 by Productivity Enhancement, Inc."
> I'm not sure if you meant to do this, but the legal implications of
> this are enough to bar me from commercial use.
> 
> With respect,
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> --
> For Tabs, Trees, and more, use the jComponents:
> http://clearsoftware.net/client/jComponents.cfm
> 
> 

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Re: Plum vs Fusebox4.1/Mach-II (was "RE: Plum vs Adalon?")

[Joe Rinehart]

> You're missing 90% of Plum, Joe.

Adam, you're very much underestimating what I've done with Plum.  I
wouldn't talk about it if I hadn't looked at it in great detail.  I've
probably looked at the docs more extensively than most of your users,
examined the custom tag library, used tools like the component and
storedproc generator, read the Plum methodology (I think FLiP has you
beat), and I can even tell you what "Help" node is simply labelled
"Psych!".  I took a great interest in Plum in its Beta stages because
it similar to something I was thinking of releasing.

This post asked for a comparison between Plum and other frameworks /
tools.  I wouldn't add my opinion if I didn't feel I was informed
enough to have one.  I'm probably in a better place to compare FB and
Plum than most users of either.  Because my opinion doesn't match
yours is no reason to call me ignorant or uninformed.



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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Joe Rinehart]

> Plum does too much in the way of generating application code 
> and too little in the way of providing powerful APIs that can be extended...

Ok, so Spike can say in one sentence what takes me a couple of
paragraphs to try to hint at.

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Joe Rinehart]

Adam,

I'm not trying to attack Plum.  If I was, I'd say something silly and
offensive.  My observations come after using Plum, trying it out, and
taking some of its guts apart.

> The way it works,
> what it contains, how applications are organized, and how Plum applications
> are written.

The way it works simply isn't what I'd find ideal.  There's so
seperation of logic - a page is responsible for both is view and its
business logic, making that an "atomic capsule."  If Plum generated
data access and possibly business object CFCs for the tables it
represented, and its tags instead used those, I could then at least
reuse the business logic and data access portions elsewhere without
having to reinvent the wheel.

This is a step backwards from the point of frameworks like Fusebox and
Mach-II, and is exactly why Plum can be compared to neither.  Plum
generates code that maintains a status quo of spaghetti code,
requiring custom business logic to be spread throughout the
presentation layer.

> Please, before you go spreading FUD due to a lack of understanding, please
> either seriously learn about the product

I'm not spreading unfounded FUD - I've looked at your product in fair
depth.  I'm not going to delve into a technical discussion of its
mechanics, but I've examined them in detail.

I've been using Plum since the first public beta.  I haven't done
anything terribly complicated with it, but I've built some basic CRUD
and master/detail applications with verity searching, and played with
content management, which is what I imagine most Plum users would find
to be about their extend of its use.

> Try not to prejudice others who haven't even looked yet.

Anyone who puts a product into the open marketplace must expect find
opinions contrary their own marketing.   As some say, "any publicity
is good publicity."

As I said earlier, "I can see Plum being useful for basic, CRUD
applications."  And I can.  It's mind-numbingly easy to create simple
or master/detail CRUD app.  However, what I think is missing is a
plug-in point where I can add business logic to my business units
without having to continually reinvent the wheel.  I really think Plum
could be quite powerful if it looked into using CFC-based
representations of the tables it acted upon.

This is a complete aside, but shouldn't the "owner" of generated code
be the developer using it?  As it is, every generated page comes out
"This code is Copyright (c) 2004 by Productivity Enhancement, Inc." 
I'm not sure if you meant to do this, but the legal implications of
this are enough to bar me from commercial use.

With respect,

Joe


-- 
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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Spike]

 >
 > You can't use Plum in conjunction with Fusebox or any other
 > framework,as there would be no need.  There is nothing that
 > another framework could add to what Plum already has.
 >

That statement nicely sums up a couple of resons why I will probably 
never use Plum. In its current form at least.

If I can't used it in conjunction with Fusebox or any other framework it 
  must be putting some pretty severe restrictions on the freedom I have 
to make decisions about how to structure my application.

Assuming that another framework couldn't add to what Plum does is pretty 
arrogant and not a little bit short sighted.

As a simple example, how well does Plum cover the things provided by a 
framework for simplifying the use of Event gateways?

I have downloaded and looked at Plum a couple of times. I didn't care 
for the structure of the applications it generated and I didn't like the 
code it generated either.

That's not to say it isn't a great tool. It's just not something that I 
can see providing *me* with anything other than frustration.

The specific things I don't like:

* I dislike code generation wizards. They assume too much and are 
practically impossible to build in a way that doesn't do that.
* I dislike anything that auto-generates code unless I have control over 
the templates for that code generation.
* I distrust anything that presumes what the directory structure for my 
application should be without knowing anything about the application itself.
* Once I have created the application structure using Plum I am 
effectively on my own when it comes to editing it.
* If I want to customize the auto-generation code for something like a 
form I need to modify some of the core Plum files. What happens if I 
upgrade Plum to a new version, or if I make a change that has an 
unexpected consequence elsewhere in the Plum framework?
* There is little in the way of data encapsulation. Shared scope 
variables are used widely throughout the core files rather than being 
passed in as attributes to custom tags, so if I create a variable in one 
of the shared scopes I can easily introduce a bug which affects the 
framework.
* In the few times that I have played with Plum I have always got the 
uneasy feeling that it would be easy for a client to introduce a 
requirement after the initial project release that would require the 
modfication of some of the Plum core files. Without understanding 
exactly what the entire framework does internally that exercise could be 
very prone to introducing bugs.

Essentially my unease boils down to the feeling that Plum does too much 
in the way of generating application code and too little in the way of 
providing powerful APIs that can be extended and used by a developer 
without ever needing to know how the internals work.


Spike

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Aaron Rouse]

Are you strongly familar with FB apps?  I am not at all, just
wondering if this is a case where if someone was then they could
follow it easily.


On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:50:35 -0500, Claude Schneegans
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> It is my case indeed, but not because the programmer was dummy, just because 
> doing it the FB way IMHO makes it 10 time more complicated just for nothing.
>

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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Michael T. Tangorre]

> From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> If the issue causes an error message, may be.
> But for just an upgrade or an enhancement, is is 10 times 
> more complicated than it should.

Again, I disagree. If the FB app is structured properly and you can read
down through a circuit file, it should be a matter of adding a couple fuses
and away you go. Toss in an Adalon diagram to pinpoint areas of concern and
it is even faster. Do you even use FB?




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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Claude Schneegans]

 >>I have never had a problem finding any errors in any

>>FB code I have written. 

I always had problems find errors in my code, since I make no error ;-)

>>As for maintenance, it depends on if you inherited the site

It is my case indeed, but not because the programmer was dummy, just because 
doing it the FB way IMHO makes it 10 time more complicated just for nothing.

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Claude Schneegans]

 >>finding out where an issue is takes about 2 seconds.

If the issue causes an error message, may be.
But for just an upgrade or an enhancement, is is 10 times more 
complicated than it should.

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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Robert Bailey]

I second that one, I have never had a problem finding any errors in any
FB code I have written. Usually the error or the debug is more then
enough.

As for maintenance, it depends on if you inherited the site after some
@*^$ got finished applying his new knowledge from "ColdFusion for
Dummies" and figured they should write the app in FB because they heard
about it on some website, heh.

Then the problems come in :)

We can go on about that one


Robert Bailey
Internal Systems
Software Engineer
813-230-9967 \\ mobile
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.recruitmax.com
 

-Original Message-
From: Michael T. Tangorre [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:24 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Plum vs Adalon?

> From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> What bugs me with FB is that it takes hours just to figure 
> out in WHICH %$/"? template is the piece of code you need to 
> modify. So if maintenance easiness was the concern, they 
> totally missed the point.

This surprises me as maintenance in FB is much easier as far as I am
concerned. If you have proper error/exception handling in place as well
as a
properly structured FB app, finding out where an issue is takes about 2
seconds.






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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Michael T. Tangorre]

> From: Claude Schneegans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> What bugs me with FB is that it takes hours just to figure 
> out in WHICH %$/"? template is the piece of code you need to 
> modify. So if maintenance easiness was the concern, they 
> totally missed the point.

This surprises me as maintenance in FB is much easier as far as I am
concerned. If you have proper error/exception handling in place as well as a
properly structured FB app, finding out where an issue is takes about 2
seconds.




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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Robert Bailey]

It really does not take that much to "get" plum. I downloaded it
yesterday and I installed it here on my local machine, and I had no
problems and it was pretty easy to get running, adding new modules,
etc. I am actually going to recommend it to a non profit group I do
some work for on the side. It is good for what it is worth, but you are
not going to understand that unless you download it and install it, and
take the time to try to understand what it does. 

Now I am sure (100 percent positive) that I do not know all that it can
do, and I will take a look at the docs more in the next week or two, but
getting it up and running and understanding the basics is fairly easy. 

Good job on that Adam. It looks great!



Robert Bailey
Internal Systems
Software Engineer
813-230-9967 \\ mobile
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.recruitmax.com
 

-Original Message-
From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:16 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Plum vs Adalon?

I can imagine that it would be tough for folks to commit to reading 400
pages of documentation to 'get' Plum :P

-Original Message-
From: Michael T. Tangorre [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:04 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Plum vs Adalon?

> But do take the time to really look through Plum's 
> documentation to see all that it *can* do for you.
> 
> If you don't have the time to download and install Plum, you 
> can view Plum's documentation online:
> 
> http://www.productivityenhancement.com/support/plumhelp/plumhelp.htm

One nice thing about Adalon and other tools is that there is an
abundance of
tutorial/videos online so people can view the "what can x do for you"
without installing it, etc... do you guys have anything like that coming
out? I bet that would be helpful in at least getting people to look.. I
know
a lot of us don't like to weed through documentation :-)

Mike








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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Aaron Rouse]

Yeap, I for one already have a ton of other things on my "todo" reading list.

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:15:36 -0500, Calvin Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can imagine that it would be tough for folks to commit to reading 400
> pages of documentation to 'get' Plum :P
>

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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Calvin Ward]

I can imagine that it would be tough for folks to commit to reading 400
pages of documentation to 'get' Plum :P

-Original Message-
From: Michael T. Tangorre [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:04 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Plum vs Adalon?

> But do take the time to really look through Plum's 
> documentation to see all that it *can* do for you.
> 
> If you don't have the time to download and install Plum, you 
> can view Plum's documentation online:
> 
> http://www.productivityenhancement.com/support/plumhelp/plumhelp.htm

One nice thing about Adalon and other tools is that there is an abundance of
tutorial/videos online so people can view the "what can x do for you"
without installing it, etc... do you guys have anything like that coming
out? I bet that would be helpful in at least getting people to look.. I know
a lot of us don't like to weed through documentation :-)

Mike






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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Claude Schneegans]

 >>As far as I'm concerned, Fusebox is a much

>>more comprehensive framework that Plum, in that Fusebox provides a
>>structure for your application.

May be,... but what if the structure is completely uncomprehensive?

What bugs me with FB is that it takes hours just to figure out in WHICH %$/"? 
template is the piece of code you need to modify. So if maintenance easiness 
was the concern, they totally missed the point.

-- 
___
REUSE CODE! Use custom tags;
See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm
(Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Thanks.


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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Adam Churvis]

> One nice thing about Adalon and other tools is that there is an abundance
of
> tutorial/videos online so people can view the "what can x do for you"
> without installing it, etc... do you guys have anything like that coming
> out? I bet that would be helpful in at least getting people to look.. I
know
> a lot of us don't like to weed through documentation :-)

We have this:

http://www.productivityenhancement.com/plum/WhatPlumCanDo.cfm

but there aren't many detail pages finished yet (just the New Plum Project
Wizard demo, in fact).  I'll be adding as time goes on.

I created a downloadable PDF of just the fifty Plum tutorials (which is also
in the Plum help documentation), so you can read through that to get an idea
of the basics (these are just the basics, though).

But there really is no substitute for thoroughly reading the docs and
working with Plum:

http://www.productivityenhancement.com/support/plumhelp/plumhelp.htm

I know it's a lot, but think about the answer to "What can developing in C#
for ASP.NET do for me?"  You'd probably get the same manner of response.

And as always I'm looking for suggestions from you, Joe, and anyone else who
has advice.  We really *do* appreciate it.  I just hope I don't come off too
defensive about it all, but I supposed folks understand and don't hold it
against us.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
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- Original Message - 
From: "Michael T. Tangorre" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:04 PM
Subject: RE: Plum vs Adalon?


> > But do take the time to really look through Plum's
> > documentation to see all that it *can* do for you.
> >
> > If you don't have the time to download and install Plum, you
> > can view Plum's documentation online:
> >
> > http://www.productivityenhancement.com/support/plumhelp/plumhelp.htm
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> 

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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Michael T. Tangorre]

> But do take the time to really look through Plum's 
> documentation to see all that it *can* do for you.
> 
> If you don't have the time to download and install Plum, you 
> can view Plum's documentation online:
> 
> http://www.productivityenhancement.com/support/plumhelp/plumhelp.htm

One nice thing about Adalon and other tools is that there is an abundance of
tutorial/videos online so people can view the "what can x do for you"
without installing it, etc... do you guys have anything like that coming
out? I bet that would be helpful in at least getting people to look.. I know
a lot of us don't like to weed through documentation :-)

Mike




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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Adam Churvis]

Joe, you're completely missing *everything* about Plum, the way it works,
what it contains, how applications are organized, and how Plum applications
are written.

Please, before you go spreading FUD due to a lack of understanding, please
either seriously learn about the product or at least try not to prejudice
others who haven't even looked yet.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
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- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Rinehart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Talk" 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Plum vs Adalon?


> > > Plum uses Fusebox too?..
> >
> > Plum has a much more comprehensive framework than Fusebox does.
>
> This is like comparing apples and oranges.  Fusebox is a framework for
> organizing your application into logical segments, especially if you
> use it in an MVC manner.  As far as I'm concerned, Fusebox is a much
> more comprehensive framework that Plum, in that Fusebox provides a
> structure for your application.  Plum, on the otherhand, seems to
> create an XML file used to generate a bunch of code that makes use of
> the Plum tag library.  There's not much seperating between view and
> logic, which I think is kind of dangerous.  Of course, please correct
> me if I'm wrong.
>
> I can see Plum being useful for basic, CRUD applications, but for
> heavy lifting and business logic, I have a fear it'd encourage
> spaghetti code and the general "let's stick it all in the top of .cfm
> page" mentality that's caused a lot of headaches.
>
>
> -- 
> For Tabs, Trees, and more, use the jComponents:
> http://clearsoftware.net/client/jComponents.cfm
>
> 

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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Adam Churvis]

> What is your (or your users') experience regarding migrating existing
> Fusebox (v3) projects to Plum?  I've got several fairly expansive
> Fusebox3 applications that I've been considering re-doing anyway; I was
> thinking of using Fusebox 4 but Plum is intriguing.

We don't suggest that people try to convert their existing apps over to Plum
from any system they're currently using.

If you need something that Plum has that your current system doesn't
provide, and if that something is really important to you, then you may want
to look at Plum, get on the Plum Discussion List, and grok away.

But do take the time to really look through Plum's documentation to see all
that it *can* do for you.

If you don't have the time to download and install Plum, you can view Plum's
documentation online:

http://www.productivityenhancement.com/support/plumhelp/plumhelp.htm

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
* Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000




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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Joe Rinehart]

> > Plum uses Fusebox too?..
> 
> Plum has a much more comprehensive framework than Fusebox does.

This is like comparing apples and oranges.  Fusebox is a framework for
organizing your application into logical segments, especially if you
use it in an MVC manner.  As far as I'm concerned, Fusebox is a much
more comprehensive framework that Plum, in that Fusebox provides a
structure for your application.  Plum, on the otherhand, seems to
create an XML file used to generate a bunch of code that makes use of
the Plum tag library.  There's not much seperating between view and
logic, which I think is kind of dangerous.  Of course, please correct
me if I'm wrong.

I can see Plum being useful for basic, CRUD applications, but for
heavy lifting and business logic, I have a fear it'd encourage
spaghetti code and the general "let's stick it all in the top of .cfm
page" mentality that's caused a lot of headaches.


-- 
For Tabs, Trees, and more, use the jComponents:
http://clearsoftware.net/client/jComponents.cfm

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Re: Plum vs Fusebox4.1/Mach-II (was "RE: Plum vs Adalon?")

[Adam Churvis]

> How does the Plum framework compare to Fusebox 4.1 or Mach-II in terms
> of functionality and extensibility of the core framework (excluding all
> the extra modules, I'm thinking of the core)?

Plum does quite a bit more in its core framework than either Fusebox or
Mach-ii.

The best way for everyone to assess this is to download and install Plum,
then thorooughly read the Plum documentation.

There's a lot there, but that's what will answer your questions.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
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Re: Plum vs Fusebox4.1/Mach-II (was "RE: Plum vs Adalon?")

[Adam Churvis]

> >From what I've seen Plum is basically a code generator.  There's not
> much of a framework to it.  I diddled with it for a little while, and
> the 'framework' is more a set of custom tags that make it easier to
> build forms, do validation, master/detail pages, etc.  Maybe I'm
> missing something, but that's what I got out of it.

You're missing 90% of Plum, Joe.

Plum is a *very* extensive product, and has about 400 pages of documentation
that accompany it.  The custom tag library is but a small part of Plum.  The
Plum Framework does quite a lot, I assure you.

Read the documentation in detail (if you have the time) and you'll see what
I mean.  Code generation and custom tags are just a small part of Plum.

There is a lot to Plum, yes, but there is also a lot to the .NET Framework
and J2EE, and you'd need to learn what each of these can really do in order
to make accurate assessments about them.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Joe Rinehart]

> If my memory serves me correctly, Adalon is a design tool that generates an
> empty set of Fusebox files that have no real functionality -- you handcraft
> all that yourself, if I'm not mistaken.

Adalon does much more than generate Fusebox stubs.  In fact, that's
just the Fusebox plug-in for Adalon.

Adalon itself is an environment for tracking / defining software
requirements, visual modelling of the application (visual modelling of
an application != visual editing of a database).

>From what I understand, a plug-in can then be used to generate stub
code, software documentation, and project documentation.  It so
happens that the currently most used plug-in generates Fusebox stubs.


-- 
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Re: Plum vs Fusebox4.1/Mach-II (was "RE: Plum vs Adalon?")

[Joe Rinehart]

I may be off in some details, but it really doesn't.

>From what I've seen Plum is basically a code generator.  There's not
much of a framework to it.  I diddled with it for a little while, and
the 'framework' is more a set of custom tags that make it easier to
build forms, do validation, master/detail pages, etc.  Maybe I'm
missing something, but that's what I got out of it.

-Joe



On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:42:53 -0500, Damien McKenna
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Michael T. Tangorre [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > what are the selling points for Plum that would pull someone like
> myself
> > from Fusebox over to Plum or maybe not even over to but rather in
> addition
> > to?
> 
> I guess another way of asking this would be:
> 
> How does the Plum framework compare to Fusebox 4.1 or Mach-II in terms
> of functionality and extensibility of the core framework (excluding all
> the extra modules, I'm thinking of the core)?
> 
> --
> Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
> #include 
> 
> 

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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Calvin Ward]

I have to say, that's a pretty impressive feature list. 

While an odd question, I have to ask, what are the biggest challenges facing
someone adopting Plum?

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Adam Churvis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:21 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: Plum vs Adalon?

> > From: Adam Churvis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Plum has a much more comprehensive framework than Fusebox does.
>
> Maybe so but the following for Fusebox is increasing daily... what are the
> selling points for Plum that would pull someone like myself from Fusebox
> over to Plum or maybe not even over to but rather in addition to?

We're not trying to win over one single Fusebox developer.  We're not
interested in Fusebox's following, its size, or its direction, but we wish
them all the very best.

There is no valid comparison between Fusebox and Plum, as they are two
entirely different things altogether.  Fusebox is, at its most basic level,
a way to organize and call code; Plum is... well, this:

http://www.productivityenhancement.com/plum/WhatPlumCanDo.cfm

You can't use Plum in conjunction with Fusebox or any other framework, as
there would be no need.  There is nothing that another framework could add
to what Plum already has.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
* Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000




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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Damien McKenna]

> -Original Message-
> From: Adam Churvis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> Plum is the most comprehensive ColdFusion development tool and source
code
> generator ever built, hands down.  To tell you everything  that Plum
does
> would take up too much space for this email, so we prepared this:

What is your (or your users') experience regarding migrating existing
Fusebox (v3) projects to Plum?  I've got several fairly expansive
Fusebox3 applications that I've been considering re-doing anyway; I was
thinking of using Fusebox 4 but Plum is intriguing.

-- 
Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
#include 

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Plum vs Fusebox4.1/Mach-II (was "RE: Plum vs Adalon?")

[Damien McKenna]

> -Original Message-
> From: Michael T. Tangorre [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> what are the selling points for Plum that would pull someone like
myself 
> from Fusebox over to Plum or maybe not even over to but rather in
addition
> to?

I guess another way of asking this would be:

How does the Plum framework compare to Fusebox 4.1 or Mach-II in terms
of functionality and extensibility of the core framework (excluding all
the extra modules, I'm thinking of the core)?

-- 
Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Adam Churvis]

> > From: Adam Churvis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Plum has a much more comprehensive framework than Fusebox does.
>
> Maybe so but the following for Fusebox is increasing daily... what are the
> selling points for Plum that would pull someone like myself from Fusebox
> over to Plum or maybe not even over to but rather in addition to?

We're not trying to win over one single Fusebox developer.  We're not
interested in Fusebox's following, its size, or its direction, but we wish
them all the very best.

There is no valid comparison between Fusebox and Plum, as they are two
entirely different things altogether.  Fusebox is, at its most basic level,
a way to organize and call code; Plum is... well, this:

http://www.productivityenhancement.com/plum/WhatPlumCanDo.cfm

You can't use Plum in conjunction with Fusebox or any other framework, as
there would be no need.  There is nothing that another framework could add
to what Plum already has.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[John Beynon]

PLUM is a framework in it's self whilst Adalon is simply a tool for generating 
a fusebox application by generating stub files etc and writing the circuit 
files for you.

>From my understanding PLUM went a whole heap further than just writing stub 
>files for you,

they're completely different animals!

john.


>Has anyone done a comparison between Plum and Adalon?  I'd be interested
>to see how they compared.
> 
>-- 
>Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/
>  - 407-804-1014
>#include 

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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Michael T. Tangorre]

> From: Adam Churvis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Plum has a much more comprehensive framework than Fusebox does.

Maybe so but the following for Fusebox is increasing daily... what are the
selling points for Plum that would pull someone like myself from Fusebox
over to Plum or maybe not even over to but rather in addition to?






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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Adam Churvis]

> Has anyone done a comparison between Plum and Adalon?  I'd be interested
> to see how they compared.

Adalon is a great tool that I think everyone should check out to see if it
fits their needs.  However, Plum and Adalon are two very different tools.

If my memory serves me correctly, Adalon is a design tool that generates an
empty set of Fusebox files that have no real functionality -- you handcraft
all that yourself, if I'm not mistaken.

Plum is the most comprehensive ColdFusion development tool and source code
generator ever built, hands down.  To tell you everything that Plum does
would take up too much space for this email, so we prepared this:

http://www.productivityenhancement.com/plum/WhatPlumCanDo.cfm

Plum is free of charge, too, so you can download and use it regardless of
budget.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
* Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000


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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Adam Churvis]

> Plum uses Fusebox too?..

Plum has a much more comprehensive framework than Fusebox does.

> I tried to run Plum on my machine and i miss a dll called mscoree.dll
> someone can send me this dll?.

You don't have the .NET Framework V1.1 installed.

If you ever have a problem with Plum, use our support page.  The
Troubleshooter there would have told you in a matter of seconds that this
was your problem and given you a link to download the .NET Framework.

If our Troubleshooter doesn't have the answer for you, it issues you a
Trouble Ticket that we can both track and use to resolve your issue.

We hope you like Plum! :)

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.ProductivityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
* Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000


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Re: Plum vs Adalon?

[Howie Hamlin]

You need to install the .NET framework

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=316091

HTH,

-- 
Howie Hamlin - inFusion Project Manager
On-Line Data Solutions, Inc. - www.CoolFusion.com
inFusion Mail Server (iMS) - The Award-winning, Intelligent Mail Server
PrismAV - Virus scanning for ColdFusion applications
>>> Find out how iMS Stacks up to the competition: 
>>> http://www.coolfusion.com/imssecomparison.cfm


--- On Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:00 AM, David Manriquez scribed: ---
>
> Mmmm...
> 
> Plum uses Fusebox too?..
> 
> I tried to run Plum on my machine and i miss a dll called mscoree.dll
> someone can send me this dll?.
> 
> 

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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)]

You need to download the .NET Framework for Plum to run.



-Original Message-
From: David Manriquez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 17 February 2005 15:01
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Plum vs Adalon?

Mmmm...

Plum uses Fusebox too?..

I tried to run Plum on my machine and i miss a dll called mscoree.dll
someone can send me this dll?.

 

> -Mensaje original-
> De: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Enviado el: Jueves, 17 de Febrero de 2005 11:49
> Para: CF-Talk
> Asunto: Plum vs Adalon?
> 
> Has anyone done a comparison between Plum and Adalon?  I'd be 
> interested to see how they compared.
>  
> --
> Damien McKenna - Web Developer - 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ 
> <http://www.thelimucompany.com/>  - 407-804-1014 #include 
>  
> 
> 
> 



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RE: Plum vs Adalon?

[David Manriquez]

Mmmm...

Plum uses Fusebox too?..

I tried to run Plum on my machine and i miss a dll called mscoree.dll
someone can send me this dll?.

 

> -Mensaje original-
> De: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Enviado el: Jueves, 17 de Febrero de 2005 11:49
> Para: CF-Talk
> Asunto: Plum vs Adalon?
> 
> Has anyone done a comparison between Plum and Adalon?  I'd be 
> interested to see how they compared.
>  
> --
> Damien McKenna - Web Developer - 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ 
>   - 407-804-1014 #include 
>  
> 
> 
> 

~|
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