[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[kre...@juno.com]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:08:18 -0600 Timm Murray 
writes:
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> 
> On Tuesday 08 January 2002 17:45, you wrote:
> > Said krepta at juno.com on Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:13:43PM -0700,
> >
> > > I propose that all further posts from MJR be ignored.  All in 
> favor say
> > > "YAY!". :)
> >
> > New to the list?
> >
> > Let me be the first to welcome you.
> 
> That's the funny thing.  I know Krepta has been around here for at 
> least a 
> year.

Yeah, but my memory is very irratic.  I was responding to MJR rather
rudely, calling him names and stuff, then I suddenly remembered who he
was and edited out all the rude comments and name calling and just wrote
a message designed to cool things down a bit.  I probably didn't succeed,
but, I did at least remember MJR. :)

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Timm Murray]

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On Tuesday 08 January 2002 17:45, you wrote:
> Said krepta at juno.com on Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:13:43PM -0700,
>
> > I propose that all further posts from MJR be ignored.  All in favor say
> > "YAY!". :)
>
> New to the list?
>
> Let me be the first to welcome you.

That's the funny thing.  I know Krepta has been around here for at least a 
year.

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Timm Murray]

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On Tuesday 08 January 2002 17:13, you wrote:
> I propose that all further posts from MJR be ignored.  All in favor say
> "YAY!". :)

Nay, only communists would want to ignore MJR.


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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Jason Smith]

Said krepta at juno.com on Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:13:43PM -0700,
> I propose that all further posts from MJR be ignored.  All in favor say
> "YAY!". :)

New to the list?

Let me be the first to welcome you.

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[kre...@juno.com]

I propose that all further posts from MJR be ignored.  All in favor say
"YAY!". :)

I think MJR just really LOVES flamewars, will say just about anything to
get one started, then sit back and enjoy. :)  HEEHE!

On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:22:43 -0800 ian at hawk.freenetproject.org (Ian
Clarke) writes:
> On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 09:38:59PM -0600, Mark J Roberts wrote:
> > Timm Murray:
> > > I was about to reply to this, and then realized that MJR was the 
> author, in 
> > > response to Bemann.  Never mind :)
> > 
> > Oh, come on. Wouldn't you enjoy a nice, refreshing flamewar?
> 
> The funny thing is that I have met people who advocate the views 
> you
> expressed in your troll.
> 
> Ian.
> 
> -- 
> Ian Clarke
> ian at freenetproject.org
> Founder & Coordinator, The Freenet Project
> http://freenetproject.org/
> Chief Technology Officer, Uprizer Inc.   
> http://www.uprizer.com/
> 

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[kre...@juno.com]

On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 20:37:12 -0600 Mark J Roberts  writes:
> Travis Bemann:
> > government is amoral and has no ethics
> 
> Why, then, does our government punish criminals and not innocent
> people? Why does it fight murderous totalitarian communism, and not
> wage war on democracy and our free market?

Uh, hello, it does too punish the innocent and let the guilty go free. 
The justice system is by no means perfect.  No form of government can be
perfect as long as it is run by Humans.  Nothing created by Humans can be
perfect.  What about what they did to Microsoft, just because they
bundled a FREE BROWSER with their OS?!  I'd say that is wageing war on
the free market and the democracy, at least a little.

> 
> Despite whatever paranoid, drug-induced ramblings the admitted
> communist and pedophile (he "earned" his doctorate with sexual
> favors) Noam Chomsky exudes from the ivory tower, the simple and
> obvious fact is that our government rocks.

I must disagree with you.  Our government barely functions.  The
difficulties in the public education systems in various states in this
country are proof of this.  And there are a lot of other problems in
various government agencies and organizations.

I am not saying that Our government is not the best model of government
in the world, I think it is, but, I also think it is full of holes and
bad people doing bad things and stupid people doing stupid things.  I
will never be content with the status quo, I will never bow down and
comply with the popular opinions.  I will remain an analytical, and
probably cynical, person.

Just a few days ago I went to a Department of Economic Security office in
which the employees treated people like absolute CRAP. They were
incredibly rude and inconciderate.  There were only Chairs in the room,
nothing to write on, and there were no pencils or pens with which to fill
out any forms, and the forms were not clearly seperated and marked so
that people would understand which forms needed to be filled out for
which things they needed to do.  The lady at the counter told me to grab
a form, not what kind of form, just a form.  There were like 10 different
kinds.  So I got one.  Then I had to try again and again to get a
freaking clipboard and pen.  I finaly got them and filled out the form,
what I could understand anyway.  When I got up there to give her the form
she told me it was the wrong form, and then asked me what my zip code
was.  I told her and she said I was in the wrong office and told me the
cross streets to the office I was supposed to go to.  I asked her 5 times
for the address and she ignored me, Like I wasn't even there.  Finaly she
gave me a sheet of paper with the address on it and I left that crap
hole.

So don't tell ME the government, either Federal, State, or City, ROCKS,
because it DOES NOT

> 
> > the optimum state of government is eternal war externally and
> > totalitarianism internally
> 
> I know you leftists are pining for eternal war and totalitarianism,
> it's not a big secret - you support Soviet imperialism and Osama 
> Bin
> Laden, remember? (In fact, your raving pinko leader Chomsky 
> recently
> traveled to Pakistan to incite anti-American hatred and support for
> the totalitarian Taliban theocracy.)

Totalitarianism is not what this guy supports.  And niether do I.  I
personaly agree with him that government is inherently imperfect and
vulnerable to corruption.  Which only means that we, the people, must be
forever vigilant in detecting and eliminating corruption as much as we
can.  We must never become complacent and just let the government machine
do whatever it wants out of some misplaced sense of duty or some
indoctrinated sense that the government is always right!!!

> 
> > this is concealed by the propaganda organs of capitalism
> 
> Yes, that's right, surely anyone who does not support mass murder
> and famine and communism has been duped by the capitalist 
> propaganda
> organs. I must agree it's quite effective.

Ok, now here I might agree a little.  I don't think that capitalism is a
propaganda organ, but you must admit that our government has used
propaganda in the past, and will probably use it in the future.

> 
> > non-ruling class life is purely expendable - any views that 
> appear
> > otherwise are really just propaganda
> 
> So you've said, you smug communist butcher.

I don't understand.  It is true that the wealthy and powerful people, no
matter what country they live in, will try to maintain their power and
wealth by whatever means they can, which usualy means corrupting whatever
kind of government exists as much as they can.  That is all this guys is
saying, I think.  It happened in the communist states too.  The people
who were in power were only interested in keeping that power, or
expanding it.

> 
> > The law means fucking nothing.  Period.
> 
> Of course communists such as yourself have no respect for the law.
> Take your Marxist legal theory and your Gulag and move to 

[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Jack Sidebottom]

Hi,To take your argument one step further - towards the end of the second
world war America helped a lot of "nazis" to leave Germany
so they could work on America's nuclear programme. The OSS (forerunner of
the CIA) helped a lot of SS to get jobs in and around the American continent
in return for certain"information".
Even in those days the OSS were involved with "goings on" concerning the
Vatican, P2, and others towards a "united" Europe including members of the
nazi party which directly affect the way Europe looks today. America has
always turned a blind eye to "Human Rights" as long as it was in their
interests they don't mind a world war as long as it is NOT in their back
garden. I think America's policy was best summed up by Ronald Reagan - "all
nuclear war should be confined to Europe as much as possible".  One last
thing If any of you get a chance Start with todays head of the CIA and work
backwards in time and see how many of his predecessors were members of the
Knights of Malta and why? I think you will be surprised with the answer.
Thanks Jack.

---Original Message---

From: chat@freenetproject.org
Date: 08 January 2002 02:57:30
To: chat at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 11:06:18PM -0600, Mark J Roberts wrote:
> Glenn McGrath:
> > Dmitry Skylarov
> 
> Comrade Skylarov is a known communist and former KGB officer.

Whether he was a Communist or not is irrelevent in this case.

> > Your government murders its prisoners (capital punishment), your
> > government dictates to the world via your foreign policy, how is the US
> > government not murdering totalirians ?
> 
> Are you jealous that here in America we have the resolve to take a
> firm stand against criminals, Nazis, and Communists? That our brave
> police officers risk their lives every day, apprehending rapists,
> murderers, and pirates? That wherever there is conflict and
> injustice and strife, you can find American soldiers selflessly
> fighting to better this world?

LOL. History strongly contradicts this. Didn't many major
capitalists in the US back the Nazis up to World War II, thinking that
the Nazis would be useful against the Communists/Stalinists, and then
sided with Stalin once they realized that Hitler got out of control
and decided to conquer all of Europe (and as a result threatened Great
Britain within the network of petty rivalries between capitalists,
which had strong capitalist economic ties with the United States).
And what about all the bloody dictators backed by the United States,
such as Ngo Dinh Diem, Pinochet, the military dictators in Guatamala
and Argentina, Shah Reza Khan, etc.?

> Do these things make you feel inferior? They should.
> 
> > Did your govenment not declare way on afghanistan.
> 
> Please, take 30 seconds to proofread your posts. The discipline
> required may perhaps be too great for a communist - if at first you
> don't succeed, try, try, try again. Thanks.

How ironic that you're criticizing some of us (and not even using the
correct ad hominem attacks) while your own posts are extremely
LOGICALLY incoherent.

> Anyway, yes, our great military took a stand against the theocratic,
> terrorist Taliban, and drove those turbaned tyrants out. Our noble
> relief agencies worked tirelessly in that hostile and war-torn land
> to feed the starving masses. And now our experienced diplomats are
> carefully crafting a free and prosperous state upon the wreckage of
> oppression and misery.

Didn't the US government PAY the Taliban not long before a shitload of
money just to declare that growing opium poppies is a sin against
Allah?

> You, being a communist, certainly oppose such actions, but you sure
> didn't have to tell me that.

Is EVERYONE who disagrees with your views a "Communist" in your mind?

> > Over 1 million IRAQI children died becasue of lack of food and medical
> > equipment, does 1 million count as mass famine?
> 
> Yes, it certainly does. That monster Saddam is allowed to starve
> those kids because communists like you take to the streets in
> violent protests whenever anyone tries to fix a problem like this.

It's far, far more than food, and you should have enough of a clue to
realize that, but then from the rest of what you've just posted,
that's unlikely. Ever heard of WATER SANITATION? The US bombed the
water treatment plants on Iraq, and through the embargo has made it
impossible for Iraq to get materials to repair the plants and
chemicals and other supplies to keep the ones that weren't hit
running. A LARGE quantity of the deaths due to the US in Iraq are
from water-borne disease, as a result.

> There are all sorts of disturbing things about communists, but by
> far the most disturbing is their boundless sadism.

Sorry to t

[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Reed Hedges]

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On Monday, January 7, 2002, at 02:55 PM, Kevin Atkinson wrote:

>>
>> I think music is an important area in which to spread the world and
>> finght the battles-- as well as the other arts (visual, literary,
>> cinematic...) independent musicians, young artists...
>
> Could you elaborate some?
>


The authors and the artists; the publishers in the new medium;
These are groups of people who have the most at stake.

Rather, these are the roles in which popular control (or non-control) of
the net is crucial-- and we all visit those roles from time to time (or 
ought to,
if you don't).

The net is a place where independent music, original writing and art,
and free software projects thrive, because of the ability for the users 
to publish--
it is made out of the contributions of the users, not some elite content 
industry
(as in television, and in some ways film and print).  This is the whole 
point
of the net, IMO.

Anyway, it is from this perspective that the 'paradigm shift' is 
*experienced*,
not observed.  This makes it real, important and urgent.

Yeah, the Lessig interview has some really good stuff in it... it 
touches on
so many of the crucial aspects of net use, and policy that we should
really be concerned about.  I just finished reading the new edition of
Vernor Vinge's "True Names", which along with the original piece of
that name and author, includes a whole bunch of essays, about crypto,
VR, AI, etc.  (including RMS's "Right to Read"  mentioned earlier).
I'd recommend it, just because of the topics that are touched on are
important, though I would have enjoyed a bit more depth, or (especially)
more specific references to other writing to look into.  But pretty
good stuff in general-- and quite possibly a a good book to loan to a
"layman" friend who might be interested in privacy, crypto, etc.

rh

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http://zerohour.net/~reed

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Travis Bemann]

On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 02:45:36PM +, Timm Murray wrote:
> Travis, I thought you were starting to learn to avoid Mark's trolls.

It was just too tempting to resist.  Everyone likes a good flamewar,
anyways. :)

-- 
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.

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[freenet-chat] the coming storm

[Jack Sidebottom]

Hi,I have been reading all your mail regarding "coming storm" with interest.
If one knows the history of America  one comes to the conclusion that it is
a Country which could be best described as totalitarian. Being British i am
used to total freedom in my way of life my government does not tell me i
cannot visit a certain country because it is classified as "rogue". As far
as i know we have never had a McCarthy type incident in Britain where
hundreds of lifes were ruined because we "might" be communist or "unamerican
. As for the gulf war if it was not for the oil America  could not care less
about the gulf states they were and are only looking after there own
interests (oil supply) As for American politics take the example of George W
Bush, When he was elected?! President one of the first things he did was
tell the F.B.I. to "lay off"  certain Arabs coming out of Saudi Arabia - 
they were given blank American passports,For what reason? and sent on their
way. Bush and Bush senior prior to 9/11 were both involved with the Bin
Laden family in specific types of companys which, After 9/11 the Bin Ladens
sold their shares in these companys and the order to "lay off" certain Arabs
coming out of Saudi Arabia was rescinded. you will not see a lot about this
in the press. I suppose what i am trying to say is if you want to be
completely free  Be British.
Thanks Jack.
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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Greg Wooledge]

Josh (josh at mercuryfs.net) wrote:

> I think our legal system is quite
> efficient when the innocent/guilty ratio is the viewpoint. In other words,
> most of the people locked up have broken the law.

That doesn't mean they've done anything wrong, though.  What percentage
of laws (US or otherwise) are just?

-- 
Greg Wooledge  |   "Truth belongs to everybody."
greg at wooledge.org  |- The Red Hot Chili Peppers
http://wooledge.org/~greg/ |
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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[g'o'tz ohnesorge]

Mark J Roberts wrote:

> communist and pedophile (he "earned" his doctorate with sexual
> favors) Noam Chomsky exudes from the ivory tower, the simple and
> obvious fact is that our government rocks.

The government of the Netherlands has shown more brains in resisting a
silly war on drugs .. but anyway:
How can you earn a doctorate with sexual favours, and be a pedophile at
the same time? Are teachers in US universities typically children?




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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Glenn McGrath]

> > Your government has 25% of the worlds prison population.
> 
> Probably because our cops and prosecutors are better than yours.
Separately,> we lock up far to many non violent drug offenders. Add that
together and we> have too many prisoners. But 25% of the world's
population has to be a wrong> number. China's prison population is
probably larger than our entire> country. If not them, then China and
India together are defiantly. It's not> that we have lost of criminals,
because all countries have lots of 'em, it's> that ours are behind bars.
> 


http://www.uncjin.org/country/country.html at the bottom there is a link
to a UK government report in PDF format, 8 million prisioners in the
world, 1.7 million in the US.

So i stand corrected, 21.25% of the worlds population is in US prisions
by the UK governments study.

Land of the ?


Glenn

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Mark J Roberts]

g'o'tz ohnesorge:
> How can you earn a doctorate with sexual favours, and be a
> pedophile at the same time?

The depravity of communism knows no limits. For every morally
reprehensible thing we know about those godless communists, we're
ignorant of a dozen.

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Mark J Roberts]

Travis Bemann:
> And did you forget all the stuff he did with linguistics...  Talk
> about ad hominem - those two words adequately describe at least this
> whole paragraph of yours.

You insolent pinko. How dare you libel me with your baseless
communist accusations of intellectual dishonesty.

> LOL.  Anyways, I meant "optimum" as in optimum from the position of a
> politician, not as in being good in any respect.  The natural state of
> government, of the state, is essentially fascism, and you should have
> noticed this if you paid any real attention to history.  And you
> didn't noticed that I said what I did as a criticism of government,
> not as supporting it...

I'm glad to hear that at least one communist has stopped spouting
that tired old workers' utopia line and admitted just what sort of
world he's fighting for - a world of evil and fascism and suffering.

> LOL.  You can't tell the difference between an anarchist and a
> Bolshevik or Stalinist, it seems...  Despite history showing that
> they're quite different in not just theory but practice.

They are all communists. They are all alike.

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Glenn McGrath]

haha, at least now i know you wernt being serious, i shouldnt have been
suckered in by your troll.

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Kevin Atkinson]

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Reed Hedges wrote:

> I'm not sure you can.
>
> What I mean is, I'm not sure you can instantaneously enlighten someone
> by a convincing argument-- unless they're interested in the topic
> already.  But, if you can get people interested in the net as a new
> world of freedom and collaboration, something that they can be a part
> of, rather than simply consume, then they will get behind the fight
> against control/repression/censorship/etc.

Yes, I agree but how?

>
> People need to find themselves as a *part* of your paradigm shift, not
> just being told about it-- and the people who have something to say
> and want to publish it need to realize the freedoms of the net, and
> the threats against it.

But how do you make people want to be a *part* of the paradigm shift.  How
do you make the non-hacker interested in the true potential of the net?

>
> I think music is an important area in which to spread the world and
> finght the battles-- as well as the other arts (visual, literary,
> cinematic...) independent musicians, young artists...

Could you elaborate some?


>
>
> Kevin Atkinson  wrote:
> > So, my point of posting this is to hopefully open up some discussion on
> > what is really going to happen and to address the key problem that has
> > really gotten me down lately:
> >
> >   How the hell do you get the average person to understand the full
> >   magnitude of what the Internet means?  And how do you explain how
> >   the DMCA is just downright wrong, and how if the various media
> >   originations (such as the RIAA, the MPAA) had there way we would be
> >   living in a world exactly as Richard Stallman explains.  Or even
> >   how to get them to understand that the picture Richard Stallman is
> >   painting is just wrong in more ways than once.
> >
> > I have never been so serious about anything in my life and would
> > really like some input here.  I have felt certain ways against other
> > issues in the past but all of them are extremely minor compared to
> > this.
>
> reed
>
> - --
>
> Reed Hedges
> reed at zerohour.net
> http://zerohour.net/~reed
>
> Virtual Object System -- Internet Virtual Reality:
> http://www.interreality.org
>
> The owls are not what they seem.
>
>
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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Timm Murray]

Travis, I thought you were starting to learn to avoid Mark's trolls.

> On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 08:37:12PM -0600, Mark J Roberts wrote:
> > Travis Bemann:
> > > government is amoral and has no ethics
> > 
> > Why, then, does our government punish criminals and not innocent
> > people? Why does it fight murderous totalitarian communism, and not
> > wage war on democracy and our free market?
> > 
> > Despite whatever paranoid, drug-induced ramblings the admitted
> > communist and pedophile (he "earned" his doctorate with sexual
> > favors) Noam Chomsky exudes from the ivory tower, the simple and
> > obvious fact is that our government rocks.
> 
> And did you forget all the stuff he did with linguistics...  Talk
> about ad hominem - those two words adequately describe at least this
> whole paragraph of yours.
> 
> > > the optimum state of government is eternal war externally and
> > > totalitarianism internally
> > 
> > I know you leftists are pining for eternal war and totalitarianism,
> > it's not a big secret - you support Soviet imperialism and Osama Bin
> > Laden, remember? (In fact, your raving pinko leader Chomsky recently
> > traveled to Pakistan to incite anti-American hatred and support for
> > the totalitarian Taliban theocracy.)
> 
> LOL.  Anyways, I meant "optimum" as in optimum from the position of a
> politician, not as in being good in any respect.  The natural state of
> government, of the state, is essentially fascism, and you should have
> noticed this if you paid any real attention to history.  And you
> didn't noticed that I said what I did as a criticism of government,
> not as supporting it...
> 
> > > this is concealed by the propaganda organs of capitalism
> > 
> > Yes, that's right, surely anyone who does not support mass murder
> > and famine and communism has been duped by the capitalist propaganda
> > organs. I must agree it's quite effective.
> > 
> > > non-ruling class life is purely expendable - any views that appear
> > > otherwise are really just propaganda
> > 
> > So you've said, you smug communist butcher.
> 
> LOL.  You can't tell the difference between an anarchist and a
> Bolshevik or Stalinist, it seems...  Despite history showing that
> they're quite different in not just theory but practice.
> 
> > > The law means fucking nothing.  Period.
> > 
> > Of course communists such as yourself have no respect for the law.
> > Take your Marxist legal theory and your Gulag and move to North
> > Korea where they'll be appreciated. Please, go.
> 
> Yeah.  I'm really going to go leave AND become a Stalinist because you
> say so.  Yeah right.  You don't even attempt to argue rationally, but
> instead just use ad hominem attacks...
> 
> -- 
> Yes, I know my enemies.
> They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
> Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
> hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
> All of which are American dreams.
> 
>   - Rage Against The Machine


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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Glenn McGrath]

> For some reason  I usually side with republicans when it comes to
foreign> policy. Hmmm...

The really sad thing about this whole WTO/Afghanistan issue is that the
US still hasnt learn from its mistakes.

If the US is going to throw their weight around internatioanlly (like
they have for the last 50 years) then they have to prepared to take a
few hits as well.

Violence breeds violence, the war against terrorism wont stop
violence/terrorism, only understanding will, and the doesnt appear to be
willing to consider why they were even a target.

If there was more equality in the world there would be less violence,
but having equality outside the US might cost AMERCIAN jobs, that just
would not do... much better to just have a war ever 5 years or so.



Glenn 

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[Aaron Guy Davies]

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Jack Sidebottom wrote:

> Hi,I have been reading all your mail regarding "coming storm" with interest.
> If one knows the history of America  one comes to the conclusion that it is
> a Country which could be best described as totalitarian. Being British i am
> used to total freedom in my way of life my government does not tell me i
> cannot visit a certain country because it is classified as "rogue". As far
> as i know we have never had a McCarthy type incident in Britain where
> hundreds of lifes were ruined because we "might" be communist or "unamerican
> . As for the gulf war if it was not for the oil America  could not care less
> about the gulf states they were and are only looking after there own
> interests (oil supply) As for American politics take the example of George W
> Bush, When he was elected?! President one of the first things he did was
> tell the F.B.I. to "lay off"  certain Arabs coming out of Saudi Arabia - 
> they were given blank American passports,For what reason? and sent on their
> way. Bush and Bush senior prior to 9/11 were both involved with the Bin
> Laden family in specific types of companys which, After 9/11 the Bin Ladens
> sold their shares in these companys and the order to "lay off" certain Arabs
> coming out of Saudi Arabia was rescinded. you will not see a lot about this
> in the press. I suppose what i am trying to say is if you want to be
> completely free  Be British.
> Thanks Jack.

You've got to be shitting us. Britain's closer to fascism than anyone but,
hell, I dunno, Singapore! Do *we* have an Official Secrets Act that
legalizes government coverups? Do *we* have a completely disarmed
population that can't even fight burglers effectively? Do *we* have CCTV
cameras on every fucking streetcorner? Your country is a depressing
example of what can happen when good people who have no philosophical
grounding are duped by a bunch of power-hungry politicians. A hundred
years ago, you'd be right--Britain really was free, and arguably freer
than America. Today, you're nothing more than an object lesson for people
who want to avoid totalitarianism. Unfortunately, you're far past the
point of no return--it's going to take a civil war to turn England into a
decent country again. I'm just glad *I* don't live there.
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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Glenn McGrath]

On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 20:37:12 -0600
"Mark J Roberts"  wrote:

> Travis Bemann:
> > government is amoral and has no ethics
> 
> Why, then, does our government punish criminals and not innocent
> people? Why does it fight murderous totalitarian communism, and not
> wage war on democracy and our free market?
>

Dmitry Skylarov

Your government murders its prisoners (capital punishment), your
government dictates to the world via your foreign policy, how is the US
government not murdering totalirians ?


> Despite whatever paranoid, drug-induced ramblings the admitted
> communist and pedophile (he "earned" his doctorate with sexual
> favors) Noam Chomsky exudes from the ivory tower, the simple and
> obvious fact is that our government rocks.
> 
Unless you can proove your personal comments about Noam Chomsky then try
sticking to what you do know, it doesnt advance your argument at all.
Your government has 25% of the worlds prison population. Your government
has done many things it should be ashamed of.

> > the optimum state of government is eternal war externally and
> > totalitarianism internally
> 
> I know you leftists are pining for eternal war and totalitarianism,
> it's not a big secret - you support Soviet imperialism and Osama Bin
> Laden, remember? (In fact, your raving pinko leader Chomsky recently
> traveled to Pakistan to incite anti-American hatred and support for
> the totalitarian Taliban theocracy.)
> 

Do you think war is the tool any one type of government ?
Did your govenment not declare way on afghanistan.

> Yes, that's right, surely anyone who does not support mass murder
> and famine and communism has been duped by the capitalist propaganda
> organs. I must agree it's quite effective.
> 
Over 1 million IRAQI children died becasue of lack of food and medical
equipment, does 1 million count as mass famine ? Do you know many more
innocent aghans have died than were killed in the WTC.

> So you've said, you smug communist butcher.
> 
Is there any logic in this statment ?

> Of course communists such as yourself have no respect for the law.
> Take your Marxist legal theory and your Gulag and move to North
> Korea where they'll be appreciated. Please, go.
> 

Are you afraid of what you dont understand, because you certainly havent
shown any insight in ANY of your comments, and you seem to be just
trying to send mindless insults rather than rational counter arguments.

How old are you ?



Glenn

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Reed Hedges]

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On Sunday, January 6, 2002, at 11:31 PM, Josh wrote:

> * I don't suppose it occurred to you that, if there WAS a UFO at Area 
> 51,
> * it obviously wasn't kept secret.
>
> Show me the proof that there is one.
>
> This world needs a cheap renewable power source, like a fusion reactor 
> that
> can power a starship at warp 9. If that technology was sitting at area 
> 51
> for the last 50 years, we would have put it to use.


*You* might have put it to use; I certainly would. But would a 
compacent, Oil-funded beaurocracy
do it?

 >Common
> sense tells me all I need to know.

Common sense is irelevant to groups greater than 3 or 4 individuals, 
max. Usually less than that. :)

Are there any bootleg X-Files videos on Freenet? :D

rh

- --

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reed at zerohour.net
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Virtual Object System -- Internet Virtual Reality:
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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Reed Hedges]

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> remember that government is amoral and has no
> ethics, practically by definition.

Please give a definition of government.


> to the people in government and the
> ruling class in general, all non-ruling class life is purely expendable

To the government, anyone who pays taxes or votes is not expendable.


rh

- --

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Virtual Object System -- Internet Virtual Reality:
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The owls are not what they seem.


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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Glenn McGrath]

On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:47:55 -0800
"Josh"  wrote:

> How can a democratic government be immoral? Perhaps you only focus on
the> things our government does wrong, which I admit is a lot, but
perhaps you> should consider that all governments do things wrong, and
only in America do> we have the press exposing it left and right.

You seem to be implying that the press in countries outside the US
wouldnt report on a government scandal, i dont know how you could
rationally form that opinion.


Glenn

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[Timm Murray]

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On Monday 07 January 2002 11:21, you wrote:
> Hi,I have been reading all your mail regarding "coming storm" with
> interest. If one knows the history of America  one comes to the conclusion
> that it is a Country which could be best described as totalitarian. Being
> British i am used to total freedom in my way of life my government does not
> tell me i cannot visit a certain country because it is classified as
> "rogue". As far as i know we have never had a McCarthy type incident in
> Britain


The reason a whole bunch of people left Britan for this side of the Atlantic 
was to get away from McCarthy-type activities (Quakers, Puritans, etc.)

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Reed Hedges]

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On Saturday, January 5, 2002, at 11:41 PM, krepta at juno.com wrote:
 >  I'm even beginning to wonder whether or
> not certain individuals in our government KNEW of this attack before it
> occured and were just waiting to grab at the chance to take away our
> freedoms.  But then, I'm probably just being paranoid.  Don't mind 
> me. :)

It's okay... there's more of us than you think :)

But that is a VERY important point-- that we are destroying freedom in 
the name
of freedom.

The hackers' solution:  start coding faster.


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Virtual Object System -- Internet Virtual Reality:
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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Reed Hedges]

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I'm not sure you can.

What I mean is, I'm not sure you can instantaneously enlighten someone 
by a convincing
argument-- unless they're interested in the topic already.  But, if you 
can get people
interested in the net as a new world of freedom and collaboration, 
something that
they can be a part of, rather than simply consume, then they will get 
behind the fight
against control/repression/censorship/etc.

People need to find themselves as a *part* of your paradigm shift, not 
just being told
about it-- and the people who have something to say and want to publish 
it need to realize
the freedoms of the net, and the threats against it.

I think music is an important area in which to spread the world and 
finght the battles--
as well as the other arts (visual, literary, cinematic...) independent 
musicians, young artists...


Kevin Atkinson  wrote:
> So, my point of posting this is to hopefully open up some discussion on
> what is really going to happen and to address the key problem that has
> really gotten me down lately:
>
>   How the hell do you get the average person to understand the full
>   magnitude of what the Internet means?  And how do you explain how
>   the DMCA is just downright wrong, and how if the various media
>   originations (such as the RIAA, the MPAA) had there way we would be
>   living in a world exactly as Richard Stallman explains.  Or even
>   how to get them to understand that the picture Richard Stallman is
>   painting is just wrong in more ways than once.
>
> I have never been so serious about anything in my life and would
> really like some input here.  I have felt certain ways against other
> issues in the past but all of them are extremely minor compared to
> this.

reed

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Mr. Smith]

I think you have a part in the next lord of the rings
installment.

--- Mark J Roberts  wrote:


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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Tavin Cole]

On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 10:34:51PM -0800, Josh wrote:
> > So your proof that there is no government cover-up of UFOs is:
> > 1.  if there were, there would be a lot of leaked information,
> > since the government can't keep secrets
> 
> Correct! There is no solid proof, and that's an established fact. I'm not
> going to go into a classic skeptics dialogue here, but you guys lack solid
> proof. It's as simple as that.

Who are "you guys?"

> > 2.  all the leaked information that is out there is wrong because
>   > that is what the magic 8 ball told you
> 
> But it's an alien 8 ball, and that's why I believe in it. You don't see the
> parallels here's do you? The fact is, you want to believe that UFOs have
> arrived, when NASA and other's have taken the time to dismiss people like
> you again and again.

Stop telling me what I want to believe.  The only beliefs I have
expounded on this thread are about the correct application of
scientific method and logical reasoning.  You're telling me NASA is
against that?

> > 3.  therefore there really isn't any leaked information
> 
> Correct, because so far there is nothing that has been agreed upon by the
> world that proves that a UFO crashed and that we are covering it up. Instead
> we have a bunch of kooks who keep flaming the fire's of ignorance and
> engulfing the next generation of kids, who usually grow out of it and they
> come to understand the government and how people are. We gossip too much,
> we're social creatures. Secrets and conspiracies rarely stay secret unless
> each of the parties are strongly motivated to so.
> 
> There is a big difference between believing that a UFO crashed in America,
> and we covered it up, than to argue if they could exist and may someday
> contact us. Those are two completely different issues. I'm saying that the
> first issue is next to impossible.

Either:
a) 100% of the information available about UFOs is false,
   and there has never been any cover-up
b) some of the available information is in fact true and there has been
   some cover-up

I submit that you are unqualified to decree which is the case.  One
would have to spend years studying this to begin to know.  You cannot
assume that something has been proven true or false on the basis of
popular opinion.

> > I respectfully acquiesce to your rigorous and superior school of
> > dialectic.
> 
> So you've got a magic 8 ball too then!  The x-files have gotten to you my
> friend.

I don't watch the X-files.

-- 

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Tavin Cole]

On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 09:54:09PM -0800, Josh wrote:
> But if they wanted to invade us, it would have been many ships, right? ...
> Unless it was the Romulans, then perhaps the fleet was cloaked.. No?
> 
> >> I'm curious, do you believe in ghosts / the supernatural / psychics?
> (not
> >> an insult, it's a question)
> 
> >I'm curious, are you actually reading what I'm writing?
> 
> I am, but I don't need to review those web sites, because my magic 8 ball
> tells me that "it is not true". :-0

So your proof that there is no government cover-up of UFOs is:
1.  if there were, there would be a lot of leaked information,
since the government can't keep secrets
2.  all the leaked information that is out there is wrong because
that is what the magic 8 ball told you
3.  therefore there really isn't any leaked information

I respectfully acquiesce to your rigorous and superior school of
dialectic.

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Tavin Cole]

On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 09:08:57PM -0800, Josh wrote:
> > if there's one thing we've learned from Star Trek, it's that all
> > alien species think more or less like us
> 
> If they have the technology to get here, then we can assume they understand
> basic biology. Common sense, no?

You can assume they understand biology.  You can't assume they care
about preserving the life of another species.  Our species generally
doesn't, when the species is considered inferior.

> If you buy the UFO stories, with their obvious lack of proof, then I
> consider you to be young and impressionable. I got a bridge I'd like to sell
> ya, it's got a great view!
> 
> I'm curious, do you believe in ghosts / the supernatural / psychics?  (not
> an insult, it's a question)

I'm curious, are you actually reading what I'm writing?

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Tavin Cole]

On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 08:31:40PM -0800, Josh wrote:
> * I don't suppose it occurred to you that, if there WAS a UFO at Area 51,
> * it obviously wasn't kept secret.
> 
> Show me the proof that there is one.
> 
> This world needs a cheap renewable power source, like a fusion reactor that
> can power a starship at warp 9. If that technology was sitting at area 51
> for the last 50 years, we would have put it to use. But instead we're still
> flying aircraft powered by fossil fuels. No way could any group of
> scientists be exposed to such technology, and all of them take the secret to
> their graves. Perhaps for 5-10 years, but for this long? No way. Common
> sense tells me all I need to know.

I'm not making a claim either way about UFOs.  I'm just saying your
argument makes no sense -- there are volumes and volumes of (possibly false)
information that has been leaked about UFOs by people who worked for the US
government.  See http://disclosureproject.org/.  Or consider some of the
Art Bell radio programs (http://artbell.com).  The fact is we are
drowning in leaked "information" about UFOs.

> Besides, if a ship could make it all the way here, would it crash? And if it
> WAS going to crash, would they risk biological contamination that could wipe
> out all life on earth? No way, they would have self destructed or burned up
> in the atmosphere on purpose. (ok, that's speculation).
> 
> All it could take is 1 drip of snot from an alien's nose to introduce a
> bacteria that nothing on earth has had a chance to evolve against, and bye
> bye most animal life on earth. For this very reason NASA is in charge of
> whatever experiment that is going to drill a hole in Antarctica's ice that
> will reveal an ocean that's been sealed off for millions of years. They are
> taking biological contamination very seriously. It would have to be the same
> type of scenario with a space craft. The same logic would have to apply.

Yes, if there's one thing we've learned from Star Trek, it's that all
alien species think more or less like us (as well as look like us, and
speak the same language).

-- 

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Timm Murray]

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On Sunday 06 January 2002 21:27, you wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 20:37:12 -0600
>
> "Mark J Roberts"  wrote:
> > Travis Bemann:
> > > government is amoral and has no ethics
> >
> > Why, then, does our government punish criminals and not innocent
> > people? Why does it fight murderous totalitarian communism, and not
> > wage war on democracy and our free market?
>
> Dmitry Skylarov
>
> Your government murders its prisoners (capital punishment), your


*sigh*.  That's two people MJR suckered.

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Mark J Roberts]

Glenn McGrath:
> Dmitry Skylarov

Comrade Skylarov is a known communist and former KGB officer.

> Your government murders its prisoners (capital punishment), your
> government dictates to the world via your foreign policy, how is the US
> government not murdering totalirians ?

Are you jealous that here in America we have the resolve to take a
firm stand against criminals, Nazis, and Communists? That our brave
police officers risk their lives every day, apprehending rapists,
murderers, and pirates? That wherever there is conflict and
injustice and strife, you can find American soldiers selflessly
fighting to better this world?

Do these things make you feel inferior? They should.

> Did your govenment not declare way on afghanistan.

Please, take 30 seconds to proofread your posts. The discipline
required may perhaps be too great for a communist - if at first you
don't succeed, try, try, try again. Thanks.

Anyway, yes, our great military took a stand against the theocratic,
terrorist Taliban, and drove those turbaned tyrants out. Our noble
relief agencies worked tirelessly in that hostile and war-torn land
to feed the starving masses. And now our experienced diplomats are
carefully crafting a free and prosperous state upon the wreckage of
oppression and misery.

You, being a communist, certainly oppose such actions, but you sure
didn't have to tell me that.

> Over 1 million IRAQI children died becasue of lack of food and medical
> equipment, does 1 million count as mass famine?

Yes, it certainly does. That monster Saddam is allowed to starve
those kids because communists like you take to the streets in
violent protests whenever anyone tries to fix a problem like this.

There are all sorts of disturbing things about communists, but by
far the most disturbing is their boundless sadism.

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Josh]

> So your proof that there is no government cover-up of UFOs is:
>   1.  if there were, there would be a lot of leaked information,
>   since the government can't keep secrets

Correct! There is no solid proof, and that's an established fact. I'm not
going to go into a classic skeptics dialogue here, but you guys lack solid
proof. It's as simple as that.

> 2.  all the leaked information that is out there is wrong because
> that is what the magic 8 ball told you

But it's an alien 8 ball, and that's why I believe in it. You don't see the
parallels here's do you? The fact is, you want to believe that UFOs have
arrived, when NASA and other's have taken the time to dismiss people like
you again and again.

> 3.  therefore there really isn't any leaked information

Correct, because so far there is nothing that has been agreed upon by the
world that proves that a UFO crashed and that we are covering it up. Instead
we have a bunch of kooks who keep flaming the fire's of ignorance and
engulfing the next generation of kids, who usually grow out of it and they
come to understand the government and how people are. We gossip too much,
we're social creatures. Secrets and conspiracies rarely stay secret unless
each of the parties are strongly motivated to so.

There is a big difference between believing that a UFO crashed in America,
and we covered it up, than to argue if they could exist and may someday
contact us. Those are two completely different issues. I'm saying that the
first issue is next to impossible.

> I respectfully acquiesce to your rigorous and superior school of
> dialectic.

So you've got a magic 8 ball too then!  The x-files have gotten to you my
friend.



 -Original Message-
From:   chat-admin at freenetproject.org [mailto:chat-ad...@freenetproject.org]
On Behalf Of Tavin Cole
Sent:   Sunday, January 06, 2002 10:09 PM
To: chat at freenetproject.org
Subject:    Re: [freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 09:54:09PM -0800, Josh wrote:
> But if they wanted to invade us, it would have been many ships, right? ...
> Unless it was the Romulans, then perhaps the fleet was cloaked.. No?
>
> >> I'm curious, do you believe in ghosts / the supernatural / psychics?
> (not
> >> an insult, it's a question)
>
> >I'm curious, are you actually reading what I'm writing?
>
> I am, but I don't need to review those web sites, because my magic 8 ball
> tells me that "it is not true". :-0

So your proof that there is no government cover-up of UFOs is:
1.  if there were, there would be a lot of leaked information,
since the government can't keep secrets
2.  all the leaked information that is out there is wrong because
that is what the magic 8 ball told you
3.  therefore there really isn't any leaked information

I respectfully acquiesce to your rigorous and superior school of
dialectic.

--

:: tavin cole (tcole at espnow.com) ::


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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Timm Murray]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sunday 06 January 2002 22:03, you wrote:
> Ok, one more post
>
> What's pathetic is that America let the cesspool in Afghanistan grow and
> multiply into what it is/was.

Being that it was America who trained the lot in the first place, I can't say 
I'm sorry.  American did a lot of really dumb things in their cold war 
against "commuisim".  And the war on drugs.  And the war against Nazis.  And 
the war against Germany before that.  And the Spanish-American war (a US 
navel ship blew up in a Spanish harbor.  It was blamed on the Spanish, the 
media at the time blew it out of proportion, America went to war, got a lot 
of territory and became a dominant world power.  These days, we're almost 
certain the incident that began the war was an accident with the ship's 
boilers).  And the civil war.  I haven't heard much about the war of 1812 or 
the Revolutionary war, but I'm sure it's just because I haven't looked hard 
enough :)

In any case, these examples force me to wonder what horrors the American 
government will commit in their war on terrorisim.

> We should have sent in the troops after the
> embassy bombings, and especially after the USS Cole was bombed. The fact
> that it took an attack in NY and 2000+ lives for us to wake up to this
> threat is pathetic. There we're those in the CIA who openly warned us over
> 6 months ago that bin laden will likely strike America, and what happened?
> Not a damn thing. All clinet did was send submarines to deal with him.
> Jesus Christ, submarines to a land locked nation? Tomahawks fly slow.
> Clinton should have had the balls to send in the troops sooner. The
> Russians were even warning us about bin laden, and recommending military
> action. And we ignored all the evidence. That's absolutely pathetic.
> Clinton was more interested in doing what the poll's told him to do, than
> what was right. I'd rather of had Dan Quale, or some other looser, than
> Clinton. As commander in chief he had a job to prevent this crap, we had
> many warnings, and look what happened.
>
> Clinton should have declared saddam Hussein as being in violation of the
> cease fire agreement and sent in the troops to finish the job. Instead
> we're going to wait until he has nukes and uses them, before we do it
> right. Not a single (true) arab leader will miss him.
>
> We should stop buying oil from the saudi's and start buying it from Russia.
> The saudi's are a monarchy, corrupt as shit, and are just a few steps above
> the taliban in many ways. And we protect and support them. Something's
> wrong here.
>
> For some reason  I usually side with republicans when it comes to foreign
> policy. Hmmm...
>
>  -Original Message-
> From: chat-admin at freenetproject.org [mailto:chat-admin at 
> freenetproject.org]
> On Behalf Of Mark J Roberts
> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:20 PM
> To:   chat at freenetproject.org
> Subject:  Re: [freenet-chat] The Coming Storm
>
> Ian Clarke:
> > I took the accusation from a representative of the Church of
> > Scientology that *I* was a pedophile as quite a compliment in this
> > light
>
> Oh, I agree entirely, those half-wit commies inevitably resort to
> such petty childish name-calling. They also seem quite fond of
> brainwashing and mass murder, two things Commie Chomsky just loves.
>
> > when one side or the other resort to insults it suggests that
> > childishness is the best argument they have to offer.
>
> Those leftists sure are stupid, aren't they.
>
> > Actually, until recently the CIA was Osama's biggest supporter,
> > and didn't you notice?  The USSR is no-more.
>
> The State Department is obviously suffering from communist
> infiltration. If Real Americans were running the show, we'd have
> annexed Afghanistan and reigned in those mujahedeen before they
> made any trouble.
>
> Only a communist like Chomsky would neglect Afghanistan and thus
> unleash terrorism upon the greatest country in the world, the USA,
> while giggling and smirking as the Afghan people starve under
> Taliban rule. But, you know, communists love that.
>
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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Timm Murray]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On Sunday 06 January 2002 21:47, you wrote:
<>
> I seriously doubt that congress and the president consider you and I to be
> expendable.

And that's when they reinstitue the draft . . . 

- -- 
He's like a function--he returns a value, in the form of his opinion.  
It's up to you to cast it into void or not.
--Phil Lapsley
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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Josh]

But if they wanted to invade us, it would have been many ships, right? ...
Unless it was the Romulans, then perhaps the fleet was cloaked.. No?

>> I'm curious, do you believe in ghosts / the supernatural / psychics?
(not
>> an insult, it's a question)

>I'm curious, are you actually reading what I'm writing?

I am, but I don't need to review those web sites, because my magic 8 ball
tells me that "it is not true". :-0


 -Original Message-
From:   chat-admin at freenetproject.org [mailto:chat-ad...@freenetproject.org]
On Behalf Of Tavin Cole
Sent:   Sunday, January 06, 2002 9:45 PM
To: chat at freenetproject.org
Subject:    Re: [freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 09:08:57PM -0800, Josh wrote:
> > if there's one thing we've learned from Star Trek, it's that all
> > alien species think more or less like us
>
> If they have the technology to get here, then we can assume they
understand
> basic biology. Common sense, no?

You can assume they understand biology.  You can't assume they care
about preserving the life of another species.  Our species generally
doesn't, when the species is considered inferior.

> If you buy the UFO stories, with their obvious lack of proof, then I
> consider you to be young and impressionable. I got a bridge I'd like to
sell
> ya, it's got a great view!
>
> I'm curious, do you believe in ghosts / the supernatural / psychics?  (not
> an insult, it's a question)

I'm curious, are you actually reading what I'm writing?

--

:: tavin cole (tcole at espnow.com) ::


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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Travis Bemann]

On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 03:05:06PM -0500, Kevin Atkinson wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Jan 2002, Timm Murray wrote:
> 
> > I am certain that the FBI and other similar groups have been waiting for
> > something like this for years so they can get in all their wiretapping laws
> > and such.  While elected areas of the government may be prone to stupidity,
> > the unelected areas (such as the FBI/NSA/CIA/whatever) are often extremely
> > intelligent.  I remember being told that you have to have a masters degree 
> > to
> > get in to the US Marshels, and I believe that extends to the FBI as well.
> > The NSA employs an awful lot of expert mathmatitions for creating and
> > breaking crypto, so they're no fools.  These are the groups we should be 
> > most
> > worried about.
> >
> > Further, what else would make an unpopular president suddenly skyrocket to
> > 90%+ approval ratings?
> >
> > I don't know if they really knew about the attacks beforehand, but the
> > hypothisis fits the available facts.
> 
> Have some faith in our government.  The government would never plan something
> like this.  If they did now about it ahead of time it was probably lack of
> communication that caused the word not to get out in time.

Why?  First thing, remember that government is amoral and has no
ethics, practically by definition.  Second thing, the optimum state of
government is eternal war externally and totalitarianism internally;
of course, this is concealed by the propaganda organs of capitalism
and the state in most "modern" states (as contrasting to old Nazi and
Soviet style totalitarianism, which did not have nearly as advanced
and sophisticated propaganda as the United States today, contrary to
popular belief).  Third thing, to the people in government and the
ruling class in general, all non-ruling class life is purely
expendable - any views that appear otherwise are really just
propaganda - for it is in their interests to have such views.  One
should not have faith in the government, for one's interests and the
interests of the ruling class are fundamentally opposed to each other,
and are irreconcilable.  To have faith in the government is to ignore
history and to ignore human nature, and is the result of naivete,
ignorance, stupidity, and indoctrination.

> Also, the wiretap laws really don't bother me. Why? Because, they
> probably have been doing it anyway, but in secret.  The phone and
> unencrypted Internet communications are widely known to be insecure methods
> of communication.  What would of unset me was that if it was also coupled
> with making strong encryption illegal or if they reenacted the export laws
> on encryption, fortunately they did not do this.

The law means fucking nothing.  Period.  It is really just a curtain
designed to blind people from the reality that the power and the will
of the state is really all that matters, and to indoctrinate people
into pure obedience, to cow people into submission without even having
to do anything.  Thus, one should not view a cop as a "law enforcement
agent" but as a government paramilitary soldier.  Following or even
acknowledging the law only makes the system stronger and one weaker,
by psychologically tying one into a pattern of rote obedience and
submission, and giving the system an air of "legitimacy."  Of course,
"legitimacy" is purely a psychological tool, for in reality it means
nothing.

-- 
Yes, I know my enemies.
They're the teachers who tell me to fight me.
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance,
hypocrisy, brutality, the elite.
All of which are American dreams.

  - Rage Against The Machine
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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Mark J Roberts]

Ian Clarke:
> I took the accusation from a representative of the Church of
> Scientology that *I* was a pedophile as quite a compliment in this
> light

Oh, I agree entirely, those half-wit commies inevitably resort to
such petty childish name-calling. They also seem quite fond of
brainwashing and mass murder, two things Commie Chomsky just loves.

> when one side or the other resort to insults it suggests that
> childishness is the best argument they have to offer.

Those leftists sure are stupid, aren't they.

> Actually, until recently the CIA was Osama's biggest supporter,
> and didn't you notice?  The USSR is no-more.

The State Department is obviously suffering from communist
infiltration. If Real Americans were running the show, we'd have
annexed Afghanistan and reigned in those mujahedeen before they
made any trouble.

Only a communist like Chomsky would neglect Afghanistan and thus
unleash terrorism upon the greatest country in the world, the USA,
while giggling and smirking as the Afghan people starve under
Taliban rule. But, you know, communists love that.

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Josh]

of
them are hash smoking backstabbing sand niggers who have yet to get off
their asses and build a real country. Without their oil, they would be
nothing. They would be starving Ethiopians .  And for what it's worth, I'm
not a jew. In fact, I know a lot of assholes that are jews, but when it
comes to stereotypes I'd rather be surrounded by jews than arabs.  The world
actually feel's pity for Arafat and his cause. It makes me want to puke.
Arafat invented airplane hijackings. He got where he is because of the
promise that Bush Sr. made in exchange for the gulf war (which he shouldn't
of had to of made). But by and large, Arafat has blown his historic
opportunity, because he's a piece of shit.



 -Original Message-
From:   chat-admin at freenetproject.org [mailto:chat-ad...@freenetproject.org]
On Behalf Of Glenn McGrath
Sent:   Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:28 PM
To:     chat at freenetproject.org
Subject:Re: [freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 20:37:12 -0600
"Mark J Roberts"  wrote:

> Travis Bemann:
> > government is amoral and has no ethics
>
> Why, then, does our government punish criminals and not innocent
> people? Why does it fight murderous totalitarian communism, and not
> wage war on democracy and our free market?
>

Dmitry Skylarov

Your government murders its prisoners (capital punishment), your
government dictates to the world via your foreign policy, how is the US
government not murdering totalirians ?


> Despite whatever paranoid, drug-induced ramblings the admitted
> communist and pedophile (he "earned" his doctorate with sexual
> favors) Noam Chomsky exudes from the ivory tower, the simple and
> obvious fact is that our government rocks.
>
Unless you can proove your personal comments about Noam Chomsky then try
sticking to what you do know, it doesnt advance your argument at all.
Your government has 25% of the worlds prison population. Your government
has done many things it should be ashamed of.

> > the optimum state of government is eternal war externally and
> > totalitarianism internally
>
> I know you leftists are pining for eternal war and totalitarianism,
> it's not a big secret - you support Soviet imperialism and Osama Bin
> Laden, remember? (In fact, your raving pinko leader Chomsky recently
> traveled to Pakistan to incite anti-American hatred and support for
> the totalitarian Taliban theocracy.)
>

Do you think war is the tool any one type of government ?
Did your govenment not declare way on afghanistan.

> Yes, that's right, surely anyone who does not support mass murder
> and famine and communism has been duped by the capitalist propaganda
> organs. I must agree it's quite effective.
>
Over 1 million IRAQI children died becasue of lack of food and medical
equipment, does 1 million count as mass famine ? Do you know many more
innocent aghans have died than were killed in the WTC.

> So you've said, you smug communist butcher.
>
Is there any logic in this statment ?

> Of course communists such as yourself have no respect for the law.
> Take your Marxist legal theory and your Gulag and move to North
> Korea where they'll be appreciated. Please, go.
>

Are you afraid of what you dont understand, because you certainly havent
shown any insight in ANY of your comments, and you seem to be just
trying to send mindless insults rather than rational counter arguments.

How old are you ?



Glenn

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Josh]

> if there's one thing we've learned from Star Trek, it's that all
> alien species think more or less like us

If they have the technology to get here, then we can assume they understand
basic biology. Common sense, no?

If you buy the UFO stories, with their obvious lack of proof, then I
consider you to be young and impressionable. I got a bridge I'd like to sell
ya, it's got a great view!

I'm curious, do you believe in ghosts / the supernatural / psychics?  (not
an insult, it's a question)

 -Original Message-
From:   chat-admin at freenetproject.org [mailto:chat-ad...@freenetproject.org]
On Behalf Of Tavin Cole
Sent:   Sunday, January 06, 2002 8:57 PM
To: chat at freenetproject.org
Subject:    Re: [freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 08:31:40PM -0800, Josh wrote:
> * I don't suppose it occurred to you that, if there WAS a UFO at Area 51,
> * it obviously wasn't kept secret.
>
> Show me the proof that there is one.
>
> This world needs a cheap renewable power source, like a fusion reactor
that
> can power a starship at warp 9. If that technology was sitting at area 51
> for the last 50 years, we would have put it to use. But instead we're
still
> flying aircraft powered by fossil fuels. No way could any group of
> scientists be exposed to such technology, and all of them take the secret
to
> their graves. Perhaps for 5-10 years, but for this long? No way. Common
> sense tells me all I need to know.

I'm not making a claim either way about UFOs.  I'm just saying your
argument makes no sense -- there are volumes and volumes of (possibly false)
information that has been leaked about UFOs by people who worked for the US
government.  See http://disclosureproject.org/.  Or consider some of the
Art Bell radio programs (http://artbell.com).  The fact is we are
drowning in leaked "information" about UFOs.

> Besides, if a ship could make it all the way here, would it crash? And if
it
> WAS going to crash, would they risk biological contamination that could
wipe
> out all life on earth? No way, they would have self destructed or burned
up
> in the atmosphere on purpose. (ok, that's speculation).
>
> All it could take is 1 drip of snot from an alien's nose to introduce a
> bacteria that nothing on earth has had a chance to evolve against, and bye
> bye most animal life on earth. For this very reason NASA is in charge of
> whatever experiment that is going to drill a hole in Antarctica's ice that
> will reveal an ocean that's been sealed off for millions of years. They
are
> taking biological contamination very seriously. It would have to be the
same
> type of scenario with a space craft. The same logic would have to apply.

Yes, if there's one thing we've learned from Star Trek, it's that all
alien species think more or less like us (as well as look like us, and
speak the same language).

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Mark J Roberts]

Travis Bemann:
> government is amoral and has no ethics

Why, then, does our government punish criminals and not innocent
people? Why does it fight murderous totalitarian communism, and not
wage war on democracy and our free market?

Despite whatever paranoid, drug-induced ramblings the admitted
communist and pedophile (he "earned" his doctorate with sexual
favors) Noam Chomsky exudes from the ivory tower, the simple and
obvious fact is that our government rocks.

> the optimum state of government is eternal war externally and
> totalitarianism internally

I know you leftists are pining for eternal war and totalitarianism,
it's not a big secret - you support Soviet imperialism and Osama Bin
Laden, remember? (In fact, your raving pinko leader Chomsky recently
traveled to Pakistan to incite anti-American hatred and support for
the totalitarian Taliban theocracy.)

> this is concealed by the propaganda organs of capitalism

Yes, that's right, surely anyone who does not support mass murder
and famine and communism has been duped by the capitalist propaganda
organs. I must agree it's quite effective.

> non-ruling class life is purely expendable - any views that appear
> otherwise are really just propaganda

So you've said, you smug communist butcher.

> The law means fucking nothing.  Period.

Of course communists such as yourself have no respect for the law.
Take your Marxist legal theory and your Gulag and move to North
Korea where they'll be appreciated. Please, go.

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Josh]

* I don't suppose it occurred to you that, if there WAS a UFO at Area 51,
* it obviously wasn't kept secret.

Show me the proof that there is one.

This world needs a cheap renewable power source, like a fusion reactor that
can power a starship at warp 9. If that technology was sitting at area 51
for the last 50 years, we would have put it to use. But instead we're still
flying aircraft powered by fossil fuels. No way could any group of
scientists be exposed to such technology, and all of them take the secret to
their graves. Perhaps for 5-10 years, but for this long? No way. Common
sense tells me all I need to know.

Besides, if a ship could make it all the way here, would it crash? And if it
WAS going to crash, would they risk biological contamination that could wipe
out all life on earth? No way, they would have self destructed or burned up
in the atmosphere on purpose. (ok, that's speculation).

All it could take is 1 drip of snot from an alien's nose to introduce a
bacteria that nothing on earth has had a chance to evolve against, and bye
bye most animal life on earth. For this very reason NASA is in charge of
whatever experiment that is going to drill a hole in Antarctica's ice that
will reveal an ocean that's been sealed off for millions of years. They are
taking biological contamination very seriously. It would have to be the same
type of scenario with a space craft. The same logic would have to apply.

 -Original Message-
From:   chat-admin at freenetproject.org [mailto:chat-ad...@freenetproject.org]
On Behalf Of Tavin Cole
Sent:   Sunday, January 06, 2002 8:14 PM
To: chat at freenetproject.org
Subject:Re: [freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

On Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 09:07:37PM -0800, Josh wrote:
> The government can't hide conspiracies. They are horrible at keeping
> secrets. That's why I never bought into the idea there's a UFO at area 51,
> simply because the government couldn't keep a secret for that long. They
are
> too incompetent.

I don't suppose it occurred to you that, if there WAS a UFO at Area 51,
it obviously wasn't kept secret.

--

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Josh]

It's not that they wouldn't, it's that they don't do as good of a job of
finding out the truth as America's press does, probably because they are
more civilized / less vicious.

Any press in an average democracy (except Russia) will jump on an
opportunity to get a good story, but only in america do we have so many
leaks that next to nothing can be kept secret. I felt sorry for bush when
his first draft of the rules for military tribunals were leaked, because now
the first draft becomes the public's final draft, and anything he does to
change it can look quite bad. Understand, I'm not a proponent of secrecy,
but I consider it a fact that there are so many leaks that not much can be
kept a secret. But in a weird way I also think this works in our favor in
the long run. But in the short run I bet it's frustrating for government
employees (bush included).

 -Original Message-
From:   chat-admin at freenetproject.org [mailto:chat-ad...@freenetproject.org]
On Behalf Of Glenn McGrath
Sent:   Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:04 PM
To: chat at freenetproject.org
Subject:Re: [freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:47:55 -0800
"Josh"  wrote:

> How can a democratic government be immoral? Perhaps you only focus on
the> things our government does wrong, which I admit is a lot, but
perhaps you> should consider that all governments do things wrong, and
only in America do> we have the press exposing it left and right.

You seem to be implying that the press in countries outside the US
wouldnt report on a government scandal, i dont know how you could
rationally form that opinion.


Glenn

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Josh]

Ok, one more post

What's pathetic is that America let the cesspool in Afghanistan grow and
multiply into what it is/was. We should have sent in the troops after the
embassy bombings, and especially after the USS Cole was bombed. The fact
that it took an attack in NY and 2000+ lives for us to wake up to this
threat is pathetic. There we're those in the CIA who openly warned us over 6
months ago that bin laden will likely strike America, and what happened? Not
a damn thing. All clinet did was send submarines to deal with him. Jesus
Christ, submarines to a land locked nation? Tomahawks fly slow. Clinton
should have had the balls to send in the troops sooner. The Russians were
even warning us about bin laden, and recommending military action. And we
ignored all the evidence. That's absolutely pathetic. Clinton was more
interested in doing what the poll's told him to do, than what was right. I'd
rather of had Dan Quale, or some other looser, than Clinton. As commander in
chief he had a job to prevent this crap, we had many warnings, and look what
happened.

Clinton should have declared saddam Hussein as being in violation of the
cease fire agreement and sent in the troops to finish the job. Instead we're
going to wait until he has nukes and uses them, before we do it right. Not a
single (true) arab leader will miss him.

We should stop buying oil from the saudi's and start buying it from Russia.
The saudi's are a monarchy, corrupt as shit, and are just a few steps above
the taliban in many ways. And we protect and support them. Something's wrong
here.

For some reason  I usually side with republicans when it comes to foreign
policy. Hmmm...

 -Original Message-
From:   chat-admin at freenetproject.org [mailto:chat-ad...@freenetproject.org]
On Behalf Of Mark J Roberts
Sent:   Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:20 PM
To: chat at freenetproject.org
Subject:Re: [freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

Ian Clarke:
> I took the accusation from a representative of the Church of
> Scientology that *I* was a pedophile as quite a compliment in this
> light

Oh, I agree entirely, those half-wit commies inevitably resort to
such petty childish name-calling. They also seem quite fond of
brainwashing and mass murder, two things Commie Chomsky just loves.

> when one side or the other resort to insults it suggests that
> childishness is the best argument they have to offer.

Those leftists sure are stupid, aren't they.

> Actually, until recently the CIA was Osama's biggest supporter,
> and didn't you notice?  The USSR is no-more.

The State Department is obviously suffering from communist
infiltration. If Real Americans were running the show, we'd have
annexed Afghanistan and reigned in those mujahedeen before they
made any trouble.

Only a communist like Chomsky would neglect Afghanistan and thus
unleash terrorism upon the greatest country in the world, the USA,
while giggling and smirking as the Afghan people starve under
Taliban rule. But, you know, communists love that.

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Kevin Atkinson]

On Sun, 6 Jan 2002, Timm Murray wrote:

> I am certain that the FBI and other similar groups have been waiting for
> something like this for years so they can get in all their wiretapping laws
> and such.  While elected areas of the government may be prone to stupidity,
> the unelected areas (such as the FBI/NSA/CIA/whatever) are often extremely
> intelligent.  I remember being told that you have to have a masters degree to
> get in to the US Marshels, and I believe that extends to the FBI as well.
> The NSA employs an awful lot of expert mathmatitions for creating and
> breaking crypto, so they're no fools.  These are the groups we should be most
> worried about.
>
> Further, what else would make an unpopular president suddenly skyrocket to
> 90%+ approval ratings?
>
> I don't know if they really knew about the attacks beforehand, but the
> hypothisis fits the available facts.

Have some faith in our government.  The government would never plan something
like this.  If they did now about it ahead of time it was probably lack of
communication that caused the word not to get out in time.

Also, the wiretap laws really don't bother me. Why? Because, they
probably have been doing it anyway, but in secret.  The phone and
unencrypted Internet communications are widely known to be insecure methods
of communication.  What would of unset me was that if it was also coupled
with making strong encryption illegal or if they reenacted the export laws
on encryption, fortunately they did not do this.



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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Timm Murray]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Saturday 05 January 2002 23:07, you wrote:
> >  I'm even beginning to wonder whether or
> > not certain individuals in our government
> > KNEW of this attack before it
> > occured and were just waiting to grab at the
> > chance to take away our freedoms.
>
> Do you really think our government would allow people to be killed, just so
> they can pass legislation?

I am certain that the FBI and other similar groups have been waiting for 
something like this for years so they can get in all their wiretapping laws 
and such.  While elected areas of the government may be prone to stupidity, 
the unelected areas (such as the FBI/NSA/CIA/whatever) are often extremely 
intelligent.  I remember being told that you have to have a masters degree to 
get in to the US Marshels, and I believe that extends to the FBI as well.  
The NSA employs an awful lot of expert mathmatitions for creating and 
breaking crypto, so they're no fools.  These are the groups we should be most 
worried about.

Further, what else would make an unpopular president suddenly skyrocket to 
90%+ approval ratings?

I don't know if they really knew about the attacks beforehand, but the 
hypothisis fits the available facts.

>
> The government can't hide conspiracies. They are horrible at keeping
> secrets. That's why I never bought into the idea there's a UFO at area 51,
> simply because the government couldn't keep a secret for that long. They
> are too incompetent.

Perhaps not a UFO, but there most certianly is an Area 51 as a place to test 
experimental aircraft.  The military finally admitted to it's existance a few 
years ago, and then shut it down and moved to a new base (apprently in Utah), 
which they are now denying the existance of :)

<>
> I think the real issue here is why didn't we prevent this? Why was a plane
> able to actually crash into the pentagon? Don't they have an air defense?
> Why didn't they see it coming and evacuate the building? I see it as a perl
> harbor situation where our people were sitting on their ass (remember,
> radar told them we had incoming planes).

Not only radar, but crypto.  It was almost certain that FDR knew of the 
coming attack far in advance but did nothing (because he wanted a disaster 
that would unite the American people in a war).  Very much like today's 
situation.

- -- 
panic: can't find /
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iEYEARECAAYFAjw4o7IACgkQqpueKcacfLTPcQCdHZkLey6gIHP9gR5fLKk2gzSK
buEAoJF2Ex7K8m2n5G8qe+cy6WvFuL1G
=jkVD
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Kevin Atkinson]

When I first read the slashdot article "Lawrence Lessig Answers Your
Questions" (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/12/21/155221) I
cried, which is really saying something as I do not cry often.  And
since them I have been having a wide variety of fixed emotions.  But I
think it settled down to being scared.  Part of my fear can best be
described by the following article "The Coming Storm" by Bruce Bell
(http://eon.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/articles/comingstorm.html).
The other part of my fear is the fact that very few people understand
what the existence of the Internet really means, and even fewer people
see the upcoming battle.  I know I didn't fully grasp what is going on
until I read the Lawrence Lessig responses.  We have a fundamental
paradigm shift on our hands and hardly any one sees it.  Hardly anyone
sees that in with the existence of the Internet it is going to
imposable to control the flow of information, period.  The only way
to stop this flow of information is to ban people all together from
the Internet.  Any sort of censorship and copy protection is going to
be defeated, plain and simple.  What is even scarier is that if
Richard Stallman article "The Right to Read"
(http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html) was worded slightly
differently I have a felling many people will not see the problem
with the picture he is painting.  However, what really is upsetting me
lately is that I have absolutely know idea how to get the typical
person to understand the magnitude of what is going on.  I truly
fell that the upcoming issues over the free flow of information are
major, very major.  Even bigger than the terrorist attack on the U.S.
However, hardly any one is even aware of it, and I don't know how to
make them aware.

So, my point of posting this is to hopefully open up some discussion on
what is really going to happen and to address the key problem that has
really gotten me down lately:

  How the hell do you get the average person to understand the full
  magnitude of what the Internet means?  And how do you explain how
  the DMCA is just downright wrong, and how if the various media
  originations (such as the RIAA, the MPAA) had there way we would be
  living in a world exactly as Richard Stallman explains.  Or even
  how to get them to understand that the picture Richard Stallman is
  painting is just wrong in more ways than once.

I have never been so serious about anything in my life and would
really like some input here.  I have felt certain ways against other
issues in the past but all of them are extremely minor compared to
this.

Also, if you know of better ways places to post this please let me
know.

Yours,
Kevin.



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[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[kre...@juno.com]

On Sat, 5 Jan 2002 23:11:12 -0500 (EST) Kevin Atkinson
 writes:
> When I first read the slashdot article "Lawrence Lessig Answers Your
> Questions" (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/12/21/155221) I

I have no net connection, at least not till pay day, so I can't see this
or any other internet article unless someone sends them directly to me or
posts them on this list.

I don't cry very often either, but when I do, it is usualy because
something has made my mind unstable.  I suffer from depression, and I am
emmotionaly handicaped.  Pressure doesn't sit too well with me, my
emotions go crazy.

> cried, which is really saying something as I do not cry often.  And
> since them I have been having a wide variety of fixed emotions.  But 
> I
> think it settled down to being scared.  Part of my fear can best be
> described by the following article "The Coming Storm" by Bruce Bell
> (http://eon.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/articles/comingstorm.html).
> The other part of my fear is the fact that very few people 
> understand
> what the existence of the Internet really means, and even fewer 
> people
> see the upcoming battle.  I know I didn't fully grasp what is going 

Very few people understand anything about computers or the internet,
hence the danger for children on computers.  We need to educate people
about computers, the internet, and the good and the bad that exist in the
Cyber-World.  We also need to educate people on the dangers of censorship
and the degredation and destruction of our fundamental freedoms here in
the US, and elsewhere in the so-called Free world.

> on
> until I read the Lawrence Lessig responses.  We have a fundamental
> paradigm shift on our hands and hardly any one sees it.  Hardly 
> anyone
> sees that in with the existence of the Internet it is going to
> imposable to control the flow of information, period.  The only way
> to stop this flow of information is to ban people all together from
> the Internet.  Any sort of censorship and copy protection is going 
> to
> be defeated, plain and simple.  What is even scarier is that if

Not only WILL they be defeated, they SHOULD be defeated.  Censorship of
any kind has always been the greatest weapon of tyrants and dictators and
corrupt governments.  We MUST NOT ALLOW ANY government or organization of
of the power of Censorship.  As for Copy Protection, it is so wrong it is
rediculous.  If they had had their way we would not have VCR or any other
Audio/Video recording technology.  Imagine haveing to miss your favorite
TV shows or movies because you were not allowed by law to record them?

They think that copying is automaticaly an illegal practice, but it
isn't.  We should have the right to create copies of our own things for
our own personal use.  What we do with those copies cannot be decided by
the Music or Software industries.

> Richard Stallman article "The Right to Read"
> (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html) was worded 
> slightly
> differently I have a felling many people will not see the problem
> with the picture he is painting.  However, what really is upsetting 
> me
> lately is that I have absolutely know idea how to get the typical
> person to understand the magnitude of what is going on.  I truly
> fell that the upcoming issues over the free flow of information are
> major, very major.  Even bigger than the terrorist attack on the 
> U.S.
> However, hardly any one is even aware of it, and I don't know how 
> to
> make them aware.

I agree.  I think that the terrorists are actualy winning, because our
reaction to these attacks has been to destroy the very freedoms we are
supposedly fighting to protect.  I'm even beginning to wonder whether or
not certain individuals in our government KNEW of this attack before it
occured and were just waiting to grab at the chance to take away our
freedoms.  But then, I'm probably just being paranoid.  Don't mind me. :)

> 
> So, my point of posting this is to hopefully open up some discussion 
> on
> what is really going to happen and to address the key problem that 
> has
> really gotten me down lately:
> 
>   How the hell do you get the average person to understand the full
>   magnitude of what the Internet means?  And how do you explain how
>   the DMCA is just downright wrong, and how if the various media
>   originations (such as the RIAA, the MPAA) had there way we would 
> be
>   living in a world exactly as Richard Stallman explains.  Or even
>   how to get them to understand that the picture Richard Stallman 
> is
>   painting is just wrong in more ways than once.

I wish I could help, I'm just as clueless.  I'm not very good at
convincing the average person to agree with me.  I'm just not that good
at understanding others.

> 
> I have never been so serious about anything in my life and would
> really like some input here.  I have felt certain ways against 
> other
> issues in the past but all of them are extremely minor compared to
> this.
> 
> Also, if you 

[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Josh]

>  I'm even beginning to wonder whether or
> not certain individuals in our government
> KNEW of this attack before it
> occured and were just waiting to grab at the
> chance to take away our freedoms.

Do you really think our government would allow people to be killed, just so
they can pass legislation?

The government can't hide conspiracies. They are horrible at keeping
secrets. That's why I never bought into the idea there's a UFO at area 51,
simply because the government couldn't keep a secret for that long. They are
too incompetent.

I think that people often assume conspiracy when in fact there is
incompetence. This comes from being inside many bureaucracies, including
some government agencies. To summarize: They have their thumbs up their ass.
They are so incompetent they couldn't orchestrate a conspiracy even if they
were ordered to do so, let alone do their normal jobs. As a general rule, if
you're a looser you want to work for the government because they will hire
you and not fire you. Whereas a normal corporation won't hire you in the
first place, or if they do they will soon figure out that you're incompetent
and will fire you.

Seriously, I worry that this government is too stupid and does nothing, far
more often than I worry about them doing other things.

I think the real issue here is why didn't we prevent this? Why was a plane
able to actually crash into the pentagon? Don't they have an air defense?
Why didn't they see it coming and evacuate the building? I see it as a perl
harbor situation where our people were sitting on their ass (remember, radar
told them we had incoming planes).

I didn't think much of John Ashcroft, but when he denied the feds the
ability to use the handgun purchase database (whatever its called) for the
war on terrorism, I decided that he's not that bad of a guy. But my opinion
might change.

 -Original Message-
From:   chat-admin at freenetproject.org [mailto:chat-ad...@freenetproject.org]
On Behalf Of krepta at juno.com
Sent:   Saturday, January 05, 2002 8:42 PM
To: chat at freenetproject.org
Subject:    Re: [freenet-chat] The Coming Storm


On Sat, 5 Jan 2002 23:11:12 -0500 (EST) Kevin Atkinson
 writes:
> When I first read the slashdot article "Lawrence Lessig Answers Your
> Questions" (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/12/21/155221) I

I have no net connection, at least not till pay day, so I can't see this
or any other internet article unless someone sends them directly to me or
posts them on this list.

I don't cry very often either, but when I do, it is usualy because
something has made my mind unstable.  I suffer from depression, and I am
emmotionaly handicaped.  Pressure doesn't sit too well with me, my
emotions go crazy.

> cried, which is really saying something as I do not cry often.  And
> since them I have been having a wide variety of fixed emotions.  But
> I
> think it settled down to being scared.  Part of my fear can best be
> described by the following article "The Coming Storm" by Bruce Bell
> (http://eon.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/articles/comingstorm.html).
> The other part of my fear is the fact that very few people
> understand
> what the existence of the Internet really means, and even fewer
> people
> see the upcoming battle.  I know I didn't fully grasp what is going

Very few people understand anything about computers or the internet,
hence the danger for children on computers.  We need to educate people
about computers, the internet, and the good and the bad that exist in the
Cyber-World.  We also need to educate people on the dangers of censorship
and the degredation and destruction of our fundamental freedoms here in
the US, and elsewhere in the so-called Free world.

> on
> until I read the Lawrence Lessig responses.  We have a fundamental
> paradigm shift on our hands and hardly any one sees it.  Hardly
> anyone
> sees that in with the existence of the Internet it is going to
> imposable to control the flow of information, period.  The only way
> to stop this flow of information is to ban people all together from
> the Internet.  Any sort of censorship and copy protection is going
> to
> be defeated, plain and simple.  What is even scarier is that if

Not only WILL they be defeated, they SHOULD be defeated.  Censorship of
any kind has always been the greatest weapon of tyrants and dictators and
corrupt governments.  We MUST NOT ALLOW ANY government or organization of
of the power of Censorship.  As for Copy Protection, it is so wrong it is
rediculous.  If they had had their way we would not have VCR or any other
Audio/Video recording technology.  Imagine haveing to miss your favorite
TV shows or movies because you were not allowed by law to record them?

They think that copying is automaticaly an illegal practice, but it
isn't.  We should have the right to create copies of our own things for
our own perso

[freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

[Josh]

>  How the hell do you get the average person
> to understand the full magnitude of what the Internet means?

The problem is that the internet means different things to different people.
Just like a highway means different things to different people. Some see a
highway as a way ruin a perfectly good small town. Others see it as an
opportunity to expand that town. For you it means a change in freedom of
speech issues, but for others it means different things. It all depends on
what your priorities are. When the printing press was invented, I bet people
had similar philosophies as you do, except that democracy (aka the real
meaning of new world order - don't answer to the kings) was probably #1 on
their list, with freedom of speech being next. I think the printing press
will go down in history as having a far greater impact on the world than the
internet.

To answer your question, I think you have 2 things here: your means and your
ends. Your ends are political, and your means are technical (the internet).
So you have to explain to people what your end goal is first (freedom of
speech), then explain how the internet helps you accomplish it. I bet that
will give you more success in getting your message thru.

For me, the internet meant more billable hours, which lead to the ability to
buy my own home, because the demand for my skills skyrocketed. It meant that
I could take my girlfriend to Europe for a nice vacation. It also meant an
easier way to buy and sell things (ebay), and a better alternative to BBS's
when needing tech support to get my job done. It meant that more
non-computer folks use email.

After installing, maintaining, and upgrading internet infrastructure 40
hours a week, I never got into the online scene (until I quit that job)
because I didn't want to mess with computers after already doing so all day.
So for me, NOT enjoying the internet like many other technical people did
meant that computers had become a profession, and no longer a hobby. It was
a weird feeling when I recognized that.

Now that I'm working on my own project full time, computers are finally a
hobby again But I'm not getting enough work done on my project... ahhh,
so much to read!  (http://citeseer.nj.nec.com)


 -Original Message-
From:   chat-admin at freenetproject.org [mailto:chat-ad...@freenetproject.org]
On Behalf Of Kevin Atkinson
Sent:   Saturday, January 05, 2002 8:11 PM
To: chat at freenetproject.org
Subject:    [freenet-chat] The Coming Storm

When I first read the slashdot article "Lawrence Lessig Answers Your
Questions" (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/12/21/155221) I
cried, which is really saying something as I do not cry often.  And
since them I have been having a wide variety of fixed emotions.  But I
think it settled down to being scared.  Part of my fear can best be
described by the following article "The Coming Storm" by Bruce Bell
(http://eon.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/articles/comingstorm.html).
The other part of my fear is the fact that very few people understand
what the existence of the Internet really means, and even fewer people
see the upcoming battle.  I know I didn't fully grasp what is going on
until I read the Lawrence Lessig responses.  We have a fundamental
paradigm shift on our hands and hardly any one sees it.  Hardly anyone
sees that in with the existence of the Internet it is going to
imposable to control the flow of information, period.  The only way
to stop this flow of information is to ban people all together from
the Internet.  Any sort of censorship and copy protection is going to
be defeated, plain and simple.  What is even scarier is that if
Richard Stallman article "The Right to Read"
(http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html) was worded slightly
differently I have a felling many people will not see the problem
with the picture he is painting.  However, what really is upsetting me
lately is that I have absolutely know idea how to get the typical
person to understand the magnitude of what is going on.  I truly
fell that the upcoming issues over the free flow of information are
major, very major.  Even bigger than the terrorist attack on the U.S.
However, hardly any one is even aware of it, and I don't know how to
make them aware.

So, my point of posting this is to hopefully open up some discussion on
what is really going to happen and to address the key problem that has
really gotten me down lately:

  How the hell do you get the average person to understand the full
  magnitude of what the Internet means?  And how do you explain how
  the DMCA is just downright wrong, and how if the various media
  originations (such as the RIAA, the MPAA) had there way we would be
  living in a world exactly as Richard Stallman explains.  Or even
  how to get them to understand that the picture Richard Stallman is
  painting is just wrong in more ways than once.

I have never been so serious about anything in my life and w