Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
zilch ""Joe Carr"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33901&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
hopefully nothing. ""Joe Carr"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33902&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I'd be surprised if you could find a CCIE with no work experience. Even if you could, they wouldn't be worth that much, IMHO. Assuming I pass in April, I'll have just over three years experience and a CCIE certification. What does that mean? Well, it means that if I leave my current job to look for work elsewhere, I'll be going up against CCIEs with 5-7+ years experience plus degrees. Someone with only three years experience still isn't going to be the most marketable person around. If you somehow managed to get CCIE and have no work experience at all, I wouldn't expect a starting salary higher than a CCNA. John >>> "Joe Carr" 1/31/02 11:26:39 AM >>> what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33906&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I would hate to see a CCIE with no work experience, but the last guy who announced his passing the CCIE lab in this group a few weeks ago, not only had no experience in the real world with routers or Cisco stuff, he claimed that he got his CCNA to CCIE in 9 months!!! I was shocked, and unless he's lying, there's at least one out there who has his CCIE, and never saw a router in production. Not only that, he didn't have to troubleshoot in his lab ( no longer a requirement), so who knows if he ever troubleshot a router/network issue, WAN. LAN, etc, (which is huge part of job), who knows if he ever provisioned a network, or even knows the product line! I agree that I wouldn't expect a salary of over $40-50K. I'm not sure if I'd even hire one with no experience. ""John Neiberger"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > I'd be surprised if you could find a CCIE with no work experience. Even > if you could, they wouldn't be worth that much, IMHO. Assuming I pass > in April, I'll have just over three years experience and a CCIE > certification. What does that mean? > > Well, it means that if I leave my current job to look for work > elsewhere, I'll be going up against CCIEs with 5-7+ years experience > plus degrees. Someone with only three years experience still isn't > going to be the most marketable person around. > > If you somehow managed to get CCIE and have no work experience at all, > I wouldn't expect a starting salary higher than a CCNA. > > John > > >>> "Joe Carr" 1/31/02 11:26:39 AM >>> > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work > experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33910&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
LOL. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Joe Carr Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33914&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
Man that's an insult. A CCIE with no experience. I guess I will go back to building race cars. -Original Message- From: Joe Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33918&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
Am I not the only one that is insulted by this question?? ""Joe Carr"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33927&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I would offer them a CCIE engraved toilet bowl because they would be full of...i wont finish that sentence Paul :) just joking -Original Message- From: Steve Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] Man that's an insult. A CCIE with no experience. I guess I will go back to building race cars. -Original Message- From: Joe Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33930&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
Is there such a thing? The only reason I was able to pass the test was lots of work experience. Dave Joe Carr wrote: > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. -- David Madland Sr. Network Engineer CCIE# 2016 Qwest Communications Int. Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 612-664-3367 "Emotion should reflect reason not guide it" Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33931&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I would say $50-60K. I am currently studying for the CCIE written and I have no "on the job" experience. The only experience I have is in the classroom, but I passed my tests on the first try. I would expect someone to hire a CCIE with no experience, but at a reduced salary compared to others with experience. WES Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33939&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
A CCIE With no work experience I think most employers would shy away from that! A CCNP, or CCNA possible, but CCIE... Im not sure. That would be like a Brain surgeon with no work experience... WHat would you pay him to operate on your brain Makes you think eh??? I think your best bet is to get a job as a CCNP or CCNA, get a year or two experience (Minimum) then worry about CCIE. Maybe work some other certs in there too, like Unix or maybe Microsoft or something to round you out a bit more and make some opportunities in the market for yourself... Or firewalls, and or something like tripwire etc... My point is, If you have a CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, and 50 other certifications behind your name, and no work experience, poeple are going to know you are a good test taker, but you will still be starting off at the bottom. With a salary range of maybe 30-50k But that CCIE is not going to make it 100k no matter what your cousins brother or whatever told you. All the certifications are for is to take someone who has the experience, and skills, and gives them something they can use as proof of their expertise. It is not for an entry level person to get so they can get a higher start pay... All that does is cheapen the cert. Look at the MCSE. Back when I took my MCSE, that cert gave me credibility. I walked out of every interview with an offer. I could make my own choices. I took my MCSE after several years of workwith Net systems including Novell, IBM OS/2, and Microsoft. It was more of a proof of my skill set. Not a proof I can read Brain Dumps, and hope I will do ok if someone gives me the chance... Now days you mention MCSE, and what goes through your mind??? Thats right Worthless. Now why is that? Its because people with no skills heard of someone who became an MCSE, and started making 70k or whatever... Then that person decided, Hey, I can do that And found Transcenders etc... Became an M CSE, but cant even copy files to a floppy This happened on a large scale, and soon employers were hiring worthless MCSEs, and were getting frustrated... Now, in the IT industry, it has become a low level Cert... TO me that ticks me off. Ive been an MCSE since 96, and mine is prrof of the pudding not a piece of paper... Now, Cisco is becoming the same way. Look at how many people are becoming CCNP...CCNA...etc... How many of those people could configure a medium level network lab without the directions How many could trouble shoot their way out of a paper bag If people dont try to really learn the systems, all certifications will be no better than a 3rd grade diploma! sorry for my soap box, just really feel people take these things the wrong way If people dont wake up, then all of this is for nothing... I would not be happy spending a couple thousand dollars to get a 3rd grade diploma - Original Message - From: "Joe Carr" To: Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:26 PM Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33922&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I agree! There is no substitute for experience! Daniel Ladrach CCNA, CCNP WorldCom Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33925&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
On one hand, you wouldn't really want to hire people without any experience, unless you need a young cheap helpdesk person you can train from scratch. On the other hand, if someone can pass a CCIE LAB without any experience, that person has proved excellent skills in understanding the material, and you would know that you could train that person to do anything in a short time. If you have a person that can pass anything with the same difficulty level as a CCIE LAB, without having any experience, you know that the person has a very high flair for that material, and after a few years he/she will have some experience added, and will be great to have as an employee. As for the question about pay - I have no idea... sorry. Just my 0010 cents. Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNP, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Joe Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33946&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
No you're not, but what if we rephrase the original question into something slightly more realistic: What about pay for a freshly certified CCIE with no experience doing CCIE level work? It seems like most of the jobs posted for IE's out there are for more of a supervisory and/or design role. When I first started studying for the CCNA, IE's didn't work for less than 6 figures, even the freshly certified ones. That's clearly not the case now... I'm just wondering how bad it is these days. -Original Message- From: Scott M. Trieste [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] Am I not the only one that is insulted by this question?? ""Joe Carr"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33952&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
And so sounds the death knell for good salaries for CCIE's with actual work experience... oy... - Original Message - From: "Wes Updike" To: Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:10 PM Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > I would say $50-60K. I am currently studying for the CCIE written and I > have no "on the job" experience. The only experience I have is in the > classroom, but I passed my tests on the first try. I would expect someone > to hire a CCIE with no experience, but at a reduced salary compared to > others with experience. > > WES Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33954&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
IIRC, two or three years ago there was a young boy on the list (14-16??) who had already received his CCNP and was heading for the CCIE. If he succeeded, he probably got it without any work experience, but never heard. If you believe the premise of the TV show "The Pretender" there are those among us who can be anything they want with a minimum of effort. Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco ATC/Regional Networking Academy MADMAN wrote: > Is there such a thing? The only reason I was able to pass the test was > lots of work experience. > > Dave > > Joe Carr wrote: > > > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. > -- > David Madland > Sr. Network Engineer > CCIE# 2016 > Qwest Communications Int. Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 612-664-3367 > > "Emotion should reflect reason not guide it" Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33956&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I am just working my way up until a company hires me, so I can get experience. There are not many jobs in OK. Wes Updike, CCNP, CCDA, MCSE NDCHEALTH 918-481-2818 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Brant Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:03 PM To: Wes Updike; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] And so sounds the death knell for good salaries for CCIE's with actual work experience... oy... - Original Message - From: "Wes Updike" To: Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:10 PM Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > I would say $50-60K. I am currently studying for the CCIE written and I > have no "on the job" experience. The only experience I have is in the > classroom, but I passed my tests on the first try. I would expect someone > to hire a CCIE with no experience, but at a reduced salary compared to > others with experience. > > WES Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33953&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
No, not at all. Here's my take on this. First off: No company in their right minds will take a 'CCIE with no work experience' and pay him/her top dollar or anything even near the perimeter of top dollar. Why might you ask? Due to the impracticality of such an undertaking. There is a possibility that a VAR might do so only to further garnish their relationship with the Vendor, but I still feel that it is unlikely. Secondly, what in your humble/honest opinion do you perceive a CCIE with no work experience is worth? Be honest, be truthful. This may be a difficult concept to face but reality tells me after being in this biz my entire adult life that a person with this certification and no practical experience is an entry level person who shows promise and got lucky. My two cents, Regards, Will -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Scott M. Trieste Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] Am I not the only one that is insulted by this question?? ""Joe Carr"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33959&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
They are one and the same when dealing with $. - Original Message - From: "Joe Carr" To: "Scott M. Trieste" Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:10 PM Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > I did not mean no experience I said no WORK experience > - Original Message - > From: "Scott M. Trieste" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:34 PM > Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > Am I not the only one that is insulted by this question?? > > > > ""Joe Carr"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33966&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I agree with everything said so far...what needs to change is the way Microsoft, and now Cisco and most training providers and study guide publishers advertise the IT industry as a way of making the 'big bucks' - the only people making the big bucks are these guys. People looking for a career change read the hype about how much money can be made becoming an MCSE, CCNA etc so they take courses, study guides, practice exams - with no experience - get the cert then all of a sudden the industry is flooded. I'd like to see something like what Compaq does with the ASE - you can only get the cert if you are working for a Compaq partnerthis would really cut down on the amount of paper certified people. A little heavy handed but i think for the best in the long term - at least protects the integrity of the certification industry and the industry in general. ""Guy"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > A CCIE With no work experience > > I think most employers would shy away from that! A CCNP, or CCNA possible, > but CCIE... Im not sure. That would be like a Brain surgeon with no work > experience... WHat would you pay him to operate on your brain > > Makes you think eh??? I think your best bet is to get a job as a CCNP or > CCNA, get a year or two experience (Minimum) then worry about CCIE. Maybe > work some other certs in there too, like Unix or maybe Microsoft or > something to round you out a bit more and make some opportunities in the > market for yourself... Or firewalls, and or something like tripwire etc... > > My point is, If you have a CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, and 50 other certifications > behind your name, and no work experience, poeple are going to know you are a > good test taker, but you will still be starting off at the bottom. With a > salary range of maybe 30-50k But that CCIE is not going to make it 100k no > matter what your cousins brother or whatever told you. All the > certifications are for is to take someone who has the experience, and > skills, and gives them something they can use as proof of their expertise. > > It is not for an entry level person to get so they can get a higher start > pay... All that does is cheapen the cert. > > Look at the MCSE. Back when I took my MCSE, that cert gave me credibility. I > walked out of every interview with an offer. I could make my own choices. I > took my MCSE after several years of workwith Net systems including Novell, > IBM OS/2, and Microsoft. It was more of a proof of my skill set. Not a proof > I can read Brain Dumps, and hope I will do ok if someone gives me the > chance... > > Now days you mention MCSE, and what goes through your mind??? Thats right > Worthless. > > Now why is that? > > Its because people with no skills heard of someone who became an MCSE, and > started making 70k or whatever... Then that person decided, Hey, I can > do that And found Transcenders etc... Became an M CSE, but cant even > copy files to a floppy > > This happened on a large scale, and soon employers were hiring worthless > MCSEs, and were getting frustrated... > > Now, in the IT industry, it has become a low level Cert... TO me that ticks > me off. Ive been an MCSE since 96, and mine is prrof of the pudding not > a piece of paper... > > Now, Cisco is becoming the same way. Look at how many people are becoming > CCNP...CCNA...etc... How many of those people could configure a medium level > network lab without the directions > > How many could trouble shoot their way out of a paper bag > > If people dont try to really learn the systems, all certifications will be > no better than a 3rd grade diploma! > > sorry for my soap box, just really feel people take these things the wrong > way If people dont wake up, then all of this is for nothing... > > I would not be happy spending a couple thousand dollars to get a 3rd grade > diploma > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Joe Carr" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:26 PM > Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33957&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
>A CCIE With no work experience > >I think most employers would shy away from that! A CCNP, or CCNA possible, >but CCIE... Im not sure. That would be like a Brain surgeon with no work >experience... WHat would you pay him to operate on your brain Different model, but worth looking at. Requirements for board eligibility, more or less: 4 years undergraduate 4 years medical school 1-6 years of surgical residency (depends if there's a surgical internship) 5? years of neurosurgery fellowship. When does it change from education to work experience? > >Makes you think eh??? I think your best bet is to get a job as a CCNP or >CCNA, get a year or two experience (Minimum) then worry about CCIE. Maybe >work some other certs in there too, like Unix or maybe Microsoft or >something to round you out a bit more and make some opportunities in the >market for yourself... Or firewalls, and or something like tripwire etc... > >My point is, If you have a CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, and 50 other certifications >behind your name, and no work experience, poeple are going to know you are a >good test taker, but you will still be starting off at the bottom. With a >salary range of maybe 30-50k But that CCIE is not going to make it 100k no >matter what your cousins brother or whatever told you. All the >certifications are for is to take someone who has the experience, and >skills, and gives them something they can use as proof of their expertise. > >It is not for an entry level person to get so they can get a higher start >pay... All that does is cheapen the cert. > >Look at the MCSE. Back when I took my MCSE, that cert gave me credibility. I >walked out of every interview with an offer. I could make my own choices. I >took my MCSE after several years of workwith Net systems including Novell, >IBM OS/2, and Microsoft. It was more of a proof of my skill set. Not a proof >I can read Brain Dumps, and hope I will do ok if someone gives me the >chance... > >Now days you mention MCSE, and what goes through your mind??? Thats right >Worthless. > >Now why is that? > >Its because people with no skills heard of someone who became an MCSE, and >started making 70k or whatever... Then that person decided, Hey, I can >do that And found Transcenders etc... Became an M CSE, but cant even >copy files to a floppy > >This happened on a large scale, and soon employers were hiring worthless >MCSEs, and were getting frustrated... > >Now, in the IT industry, it has become a low level Cert... TO me that ticks >me off. Ive been an MCSE since 96, and mine is prrof of the pudding not >a piece of paper... > >Now, Cisco is becoming the same way. Look at how many people are becoming >CCNP...CCNA...etc... How many of those people could configure a medium level >network lab without the directions > >How many could trouble shoot their way out of a paper bag > >If people dont try to really learn the systems, all certifications will be >no better than a 3rd grade diploma! > >sorry for my soap box, just really feel people take these things the wrong >way If people dont wake up, then all of this is for nothing... > >I would not be happy spending a couple thousand dollars to get a 3rd grade >diploma > > > >- Original Message - >From: "Joe Carr" >To: >Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:26 PM >Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > >> what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33967&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
To go through those certs that quickly is very impressive! If you pass the lab, I still think you will get a lot of funny looks when you say you have no work experience, yet you are a CCIE. As long as you're prepared for that, it's up to you to sell yourself. It will be tough but I think if you can show that you really know your stuff, you should be able to find a pretty good job. However, I wouldn't count on a huge salary right at the begging simply because of the certifications. Good luck! John >>> "Joe Carr" 1/31/02 12:33:02 PM >>> I'm going for my CCIE now and I have completed the CCNA,CCDA,CCNP,CCIE written all within the last five months. I currently work for an ISP in tech support (help desk) and I do not not have NOC experience. I have a very impressive lab and plan to boe done with the CCIE lab in about four months. am just wondering what I should expect out there, I just turrend 21 so I still pritty young yet but I have gotten all of these certs plus an MCDBA and A+ in less then a year. Joe Carr A+, MCDBA, CCNA, CCDA, CCNP - Original Message - From: "John Neiberger" To: ; Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:47 PM Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > I'd be surprised if you could find a CCIE with no work experience. Even > if you could, they wouldn't be worth that much, IMHO. Assuming I pass > in April, I'll have just over three years experience and a CCIE > certification. What does that mean? > > Well, it means that if I leave my current job to look for work > elsewhere, I'll be going up against CCIEs with 5-7+ years experience > plus degrees. Someone with only three years experience still isn't > going to be the most marketable person around. > > If you somehow managed to get CCIE and have no work experience at all, > I wouldn't expect a starting salary higher than a CCNA. > > John > > >>> "Joe Carr" 1/31/02 11:26:39 AM >>> > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work > experience. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33979&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
Contract companies generally find this a "good" situation. I've seen on many occasions where an experienced CCIE will start a contract, then he or she (the versed CCIE) will become part-time and a much much less experienced (usually new CCIE or a former instructor) will enter into the picture. It's a win for the new guy because he or she is getting the much needed experience (@ a nervous pace I might add), it's a win for the contract company that is paying the CCIE peanuts and billing big CCIE dollars for their employee, but unfortunately the customer generally loses. I have seen entire government (hard to get fired) contracts canceled after 12 months of shenanigans such as these. My .02 Phil -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of William Gragido Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] No, not at all. Here's my take on this. First off: No company in their right minds will take a 'CCIE with no work experience' and pay him/her top dollar or anything even near the perimeter of top dollar. Why might you ask? Due to the impracticality of such an undertaking. There is a possibility that a VAR might do so only to further garnish their relationship with the Vendor, but I still feel that it is unlikely. Secondly, what in your humble/honest opinion do you perceive a CCIE with no work experience is worth? Be honest, be truthful. This may be a difficult concept to face but reality tells me after being in this biz my entire adult life that a person with this certification and no practical experience is an entry level person who shows promise and got lucky. My two cents, Regards, Will -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Scott M. Trieste Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] Am I not the only one that is insulted by this question?? ""Joe Carr"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33980&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
gosh to be quite honest, I could not imagine a CCIE without any
experience... Has this happened? Are these people still around?
I'd like to hear from anyone that has accomplished CCIE with NO practical
experience... I'd like to know how they are doing and what advances they
have seen.
-Patrick
>>> "Wes Updike" 01/31/02 03:10PM >>>
I would say $50-60K. I am currently studying for the CCIE written and I
have no "on the job" experience. The only experience I have is in the
classroom, but I passed my tests on the first try. I would expect someone
to hire a CCIE with no experience, but at a reduced salary compared to
others with experience.
WES
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Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I agree that the IT industry is being way overmarketed. I hear an ad running almost every morning for a training company here in Denver. They claim that the average starting salary for newly certified people with no experience is $60k. I'm not sure, but I think they're on crack. :-) John >>> "Oliver Nadalin" 1/31/02 3:09:33 PM >>> I agree with everything said so far...what needs to change is the way Microsoft, and now Cisco and most training providers and study guide publishers advertise the IT industry as a way of making the 'big bucks' - the only people making the big bucks are these guys. People looking for a career change read the hype about how much money can be made becoming an MCSE, CCNA etc so they take courses, study guides, practice exams - with no experience - get the cert then all of a sudden the industry is flooded. I'd like to see something like what Compaq does with the ASE - you can only get the cert if you are working for a Compaq partnerthis would really cut down on the amount of paper certified people. A little heavy handed but i think for the best in the long term - at least protects the integrity of the certification industry and the industry in general. ""Guy"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > A CCIE With no work experience > > I think most employers would shy away from that! A CCNP, or CCNA possible, > but CCIE... Im not sure. That would be like a Brain surgeon with no work > experience... WHat would you pay him to operate on your brain > > Makes you think eh??? I think your best bet is to get a job as a CCNP or > CCNA, get a year or two experience (Minimum) then worry about CCIE. Maybe > work some other certs in there too, like Unix or maybe Microsoft or > something to round you out a bit more and make some opportunities in the > market for yourself... Or firewalls, and or something like tripwire etc... > > My point is, If you have a CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, and 50 other certifications > behind your name, and no work experience, poeple are going to know you are a > good test taker, but you will still be starting off at the bottom. With a > salary range of maybe 30-50k But that CCIE is not going to make it 100k no > matter what your cousins brother or whatever told you. All the > certifications are for is to take someone who has the experience, and > skills, and gives them something they can use as proof of their expertise. > > It is not for an entry level person to get so they can get a higher start > pay... All that does is cheapen the cert. > > Look at the MCSE. Back when I took my MCSE, that cert gave me credibility. I > walked out of every interview with an offer. I could make my own choices. I > took my MCSE after several years of workwith Net systems including Novell, > IBM OS/2, and Microsoft. It was more of a proof of my skill set. Not a proof > I can read Brain Dumps, and hope I will do ok if someone gives me the > chance... > > Now days you mention MCSE, and what goes through your mind??? Thats right > Worthless. > > Now why is that? > > Its because people with no skills heard of someone who became an MCSE, and > started making 70k or whatever... Then that person decided, Hey, I can > do that And found Transcenders etc... Became an M CSE, but cant even > copy files to a floppy > > This happened on a large scale, and soon employers were hiring worthless > MCSEs, and were getting frustrated... > > Now, in the IT industry, it has become a low level Cert... TO me that ticks > me off. Ive been an MCSE since 96, and mine is prrof of the pudding not > a piece of paper... > > Now, Cisco is becoming the same way. Look at how many people are becoming > CCNP...CCNA...etc... How many of those people could configure a medium level > network lab without the directions > > How many could trouble shoot their way out of a paper bag > > If people dont try to really learn the systems, all certifications will be > no better than a 3rd grade diploma! > > sorry for my soap box, just really feel people take these things the wrong > way If people dont wake up, then all of this is for nothing... > > I would not be happy spending a couple thousand dollars to get a 3rd grade > diploma > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Joe Carr" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:26 PM > Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33982&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
how about doing what, for whom, where, and not to mention, most importantly who? or is the general consensus that the value an employee delivers to an employer is directly proportional to the highest level of vendor specific certification achieved? At 01:26 PM 1/31/2002 -0500, Joe Carr wrote: >what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33995&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I totally disagree with you. If a company has a large internetwork with many advanced configurations and connections, it would be nice for them to have at least one CCIE onboard. But, if that company was not a Cisco Partner, which they wouldn't be if they were a Car Maker Company, a Shipping Company, a Newspaper Company, etc, they could only get CCIE help by either (1) hire one that is already certified from a Cisco Partner, or (2) pay a Cisco Partner for contract work. They would not be able to take their network guy who had been dealing with their Cisco equipment for years, and pay for his CCIE studies, exams and labs. Another 0010 cents, Ole ~~~ Ole Drews Jensen Systems Network Manager CCNP, MCSE, MCP+I RWR Enterprises, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~ http://www.RouterChief.com ~~~ NEED A JOB ??? http://www.oledrews.com/job ~~~ -Original Message- From: Oliver Nadalin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] I agree with everything said so far...what needs to change is the way Microsoft, and now Cisco and most training providers and study guide publishers advertise the IT industry as a way of making the 'big bucks' - the only people making the big bucks are these guys. People looking for a career change read the hype about how much money can be made becoming an MCSE, CCNA etc so they take courses, study guides, practice exams - with no experience - get the cert then all of a sudden the industry is flooded. I'd like to see something like what Compaq does with the ASE - you can only get the cert if you are working for a Compaq partnerthis would really cut down on the amount of paper certified people. A little heavy handed but i think for the best in the long term - at least protects the integrity of the certification industry and the industry in general. ""Guy"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > A CCIE With no work experience > > I think most employers would shy away from that! A CCNP, or CCNA possible, > but CCIE... Im not sure. That would be like a Brain surgeon with no work > experience... WHat would you pay him to operate on your brain > > Makes you think eh??? I think your best bet is to get a job as a CCNP or > CCNA, get a year or two experience (Minimum) then worry about CCIE. Maybe > work some other certs in there too, like Unix or maybe Microsoft or > something to round you out a bit more and make some opportunities in the > market for yourself... Or firewalls, and or something like tripwire etc... > > My point is, If you have a CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, and 50 other certifications > behind your name, and no work experience, poeple are going to know you are a > good test taker, but you will still be starting off at the bottom. With a > salary range of maybe 30-50k But that CCIE is not going to make it 100k no > matter what your cousins brother or whatever told you. All the > certifications are for is to take someone who has the experience, and > skills, and gives them something they can use as proof of their expertise. > > It is not for an entry level person to get so they can get a higher start > pay... All that does is cheapen the cert. > > Look at the MCSE. Back when I took my MCSE, that cert gave me credibility. I > walked out of every interview with an offer. I could make my own choices. I > took my MCSE after several years of workwith Net systems including Novell, > IBM OS/2, and Microsoft. It was more of a proof of my skill set. Not a proof > I can read Brain Dumps, and hope I will do ok if someone gives me the > chance... > > Now days you mention MCSE, and what goes through your mind??? Thats right > Worthless. > > Now why is that? > > Its because people with no skills heard of someone who became an MCSE, and > started making 70k or whatever... Then that person decided, Hey, I can > do that And found Transcenders etc... Became an M CSE, but cant even > copy files to a floppy > > This happened on a large scale, and soon employers were hiring worthless > MCSEs, and were getting frustrated... > > Now, in the IT industry, it has become a low level Cert... TO me that ticks > me off. Ive been an MCSE since 96, and mine is prrof of the pudding not > a piece of paper... > > Now, Cisco is becoming the same way. Look at how many people are becoming > CCNP...CCNA...etc... How many of those people could configure a medium level > network lab without the directions > > How many could trouble shoot their way out of a paper bag > > If people dont try to really learn the systems, all certificat
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
exactamundo!
>>> Guy 01/31/02 03:34PM >>>
A CCIE With no work experience
I think most employers would shy away from that! A CCNP, or CCNA possible,
but CCIE... Im not sure. That would be like a Brain surgeon with no work
experience... WHat would you pay him to operate on your brain
Makes you think eh??? I think your best bet is to get a job as a CCNP or
CCNA, get a year or two experience (Minimum) then worry about CCIE. Maybe
work some other certs in there too, like Unix or maybe Microsoft or
something to round you out a bit more and make some opportunities in the
market for yourself... Or firewalls, and or something like tripwire etc...
My point is, If you have a CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, and 50 other certifications
behind your name, and no work experience, poeple are going to know you are a
good test taker, but you will still be starting off at the bottom. With a
salary range of maybe 30-50k But that CCIE is not going to make it 100k no
matter what your cousins brother or whatever told you. All the
certifications are for is to take someone who has the experience, and
skills, and gives them something they can use as proof of their expertise.
It is not for an entry level person to get so they can get a higher start
pay... All that does is cheapen the cert.
Look at the MCSE. Back when I took my MCSE, that cert gave me credibility. I
walked out of every interview with an offer. I could make my own choices. I
took my MCSE after several years of workwith Net systems including Novell,
IBM OS/2, and Microsoft. It was more of a proof of my skill set. Not a proof
I can read Brain Dumps, and hope I will do ok if someone gives me the
chance...
Now days you mention MCSE, and what goes through your mind??? Thats right
Worthless.
Now why is that?
Its because people with no skills heard of someone who became an MCSE, and
started making 70k or whatever... Then that person decided, Hey, I can
do that And found Transcenders etc... Became an M CSE, but cant even
copy files to a floppy
This happened on a large scale, and soon employers were hiring worthless
MCSEs, and were getting frustrated...
Now, in the IT industry, it has become a low level Cert... TO me that ticks
me off. Ive been an MCSE since 96, and mine is prrof of the pudding not
a piece of paper...
Now, Cisco is becoming the same way. Look at how many people are becoming
CCNP...CCNA...etc... How many of those people could configure a medium level
network lab without the directions
How many could trouble shoot their way out of a paper bag
If people dont try to really learn the systems, all certifications will be
no better than a 3rd grade diploma!
sorry for my soap box, just really feel people take these things the wrong
way If people dont wake up, then all of this is for nothing...
I would not be happy spending a couple thousand dollars to get a 3rd grade
diploma
- Original Message -
From: "Joe Carr"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:26 PM
Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
> what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience.
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Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
Well, more power to you!!! As far as what you should expect An entry level NOC position If you go in with the attitude that you should be at a Senior Level because of the IE, then you will be one of the ones crying about how theres no jobs available... Which ever way you go, I doubt your CCIE will have any more leverage than your CCNP will... Something that might be a good move for you is a latteral move within your ISP. in the AS support or something But it sounds like you are the person the average user calls when they cant get the little E thing on their desktop to do anything If thats your position, get out and move... If you support the companies about their T1, then your in a good starting place... Best of luck, everyone has to start, but Im afraid the CCIE at this stage may hurt you... Heres what I mean You are qualified for entry level... Your Certifications say you are over qualified Your work experience says your under qualified for your certs... What does an employer do? If they have delt with a CCIE before, they probobly wont consider you because they dont have the confidence in you to control their multi million dollar network On the otherside... Your certifications would get you overlooked for the positions you would excel at quickly and allow you to get the experience, because they dont think you would accept any offer for a lower position... So your resume gets dumped Some important things to consider. I would not consider your resume if it had all of that, and all within one year... My first instinct would be BRAIN DUMPS... CHEET SHEETS TRANSCENDERS, and I would throw your resume away Now someone with CCNA, maybe CCNP, but not too much, would get my attention for a good paying entry to mid level position CCIE is upper level position Cant put you in charge of my team of engineers with experience levels ranging from 2-10 years when you have 0-1 No one would folllow you. It would not be a good team anymore These are things beyond the technical aspect that management must face. Just think about it.. Im not trying to keep you from succeding, just trying to keep you from hurting yourself... Its like the small company that saves up their money for a Super Bowl Ad... They get 3 million responses and their 2 man company cant handle it WHat happens to them? They run themselves out of business... too much too fast... - Original Message - From: "John Neiberger" To: Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:31 PM Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > To go through those certs that quickly is very impressive! If you pass > the lab, I still think you will get a lot of funny looks when you say > you have no work experience, yet you are a CCIE. As long as you're > prepared for that, it's up to you to sell yourself. It will be tough > but I think if you can show that you really know your stuff, you should > be able to find a pretty good job. > > However, I wouldn't count on a huge salary right at the begging simply > because of the certifications. > > Good luck! > John > > >>> "Joe Carr" 1/31/02 12:33:02 PM >>> > I'm going for my CCIE now and I have completed the CCNA,CCDA,CCNP,CCIE > written all within the last five months. I currently work for an ISP in > tech > support (help desk) and I do not not have NOC experience. I have a > very > impressive lab and plan to boe done with the CCIE lab in about four > months. > am just wondering what I should expect out there, I just turrend 21 so > I > still pritty young yet but I have gotten all of these certs plus an > MCDBA > and A+ in less then a year. > > Joe Carr > A+, MCDBA, CCNA, CCDA, CCNP > - Original Message - > From: "John Neiberger" > To: ; > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:47 PM > Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > I'd be surprised if you could find a CCIE with no work experience. > Even > > if you could, they wouldn't be worth that much, IMHO. Assuming I > pass > > in April, I'll have just over three years experience and a CCIE > > certification. What does that mean? > > > > Well, it means that if I leave my current job to look for work > > elsewhere, I'll be going up against CCIEs with 5-7+ years experience > > plus degrees. Someone with only three years experience still isn't > > going to be the most marketable person around. > > > > If you somehow managed to get CCIE and have no work experience at > all, > > I wouldn't expect a starting salary higher than a CCNA. > > > > John > > > > >>> "Joe Carr" 1/31/02 11:26:39 AM >>> > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work > > experience. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=33990&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
nope - don't like this. That makes me a slave to a company. If you haven't guessed I'm a contractor. If I couldn't get the cert then I would lose most of my business. I don't want to work for someone else (unless I go into semi-retirement). I paid for all my training and my exams. The cert belongs to me. If the company paid the training/exams then I owe them either repayment or a guaranteed term of work. But when/if I leave after fulfilling the requirement - the cert goes with me. Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: "Oliver Nadalin" To: Sent: Thursday, 31 January, 2002 17:09 Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > I agree with everything said so far...what needs to change is the way > Microsoft, and now Cisco and most training providers and study guide > publishers advertise the IT industry as a way of making the 'big bucks' - > the only people making the big bucks are these guys. People looking for a > career change read the hype about how much money can be made becoming an > MCSE, CCNA etc so they take courses, study guides, practice exams - with no > experience - get the cert then all of a sudden the industry is flooded. > > I'd like to see something like what Compaq does with the ASE - you can only > get the cert if you are working for a Compaq partnerthis would really > cut down on the amount of paper certified people. A little heavy handed but > i think for the best in the long term - at least protects the integrity of > the certification industry and the industry in general. > > > ""Guy"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > A CCIE With no work experience > > > > I think most employers would shy away from that! A CCNP, or CCNA possible, > > but CCIE... Im not sure. That would be like a Brain surgeon with no work > > experience... WHat would you pay him to operate on your brain > > > > Makes you think eh??? I think your best bet is to get a job as a CCNP or > > CCNA, get a year or two experience (Minimum) then worry about CCIE. Maybe > > work some other certs in there too, like Unix or maybe Microsoft or > > something to round you out a bit more and make some opportunities in the > > market for yourself... Or firewalls, and or something like tripwire etc... > > > > My point is, If you have a CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, and 50 other certifications > > behind your name, and no work experience, poeple are going to know you are > a > > good test taker, but you will still be starting off at the bottom. With a > > salary range of maybe 30-50k But that CCIE is not going to make it 100k no > > matter what your cousins brother or whatever told you. All the > > certifications are for is to take someone who has the experience, and > > skills, and gives them something they can use as proof of their expertise. > > > > It is not for an entry level person to get so they can get a higher start > > pay... All that does is cheapen the cert. > > > > Look at the MCSE. Back when I took my MCSE, that cert gave me credibility. > I > > walked out of every interview with an offer. I could make my own choices. > I > > took my MCSE after several years of workwith Net systems including Novell, > > IBM OS/2, and Microsoft. It was more of a proof of my skill set. Not a > proof > > I can read Brain Dumps, and hope I will do ok if someone gives me the > > chance... > > > > Now days you mention MCSE, and what goes through your mind??? Thats right > > Worthless. > > > > Now why is that? > > > > Its because people with no skills heard of someone who became an MCSE, and > > started making 70k or whatever... Then that person decided, Hey, I can > > do that And found Transcenders etc... Became an M CSE, but cant even > > copy files to a floppy > > > > This happened on a large scale, and soon employers were hiring worthless > > MCSEs, and were getting frustrated... > > > > Now, in the IT industry, it has become a low level Cert... TO me that > ticks > > me off. Ive been an MCSE since 96, and mine is prrof of the pudding > not > > a piece of paper... > > > > Now, Cisco is becoming the same way. Look at how many people are becoming > > CCNP...CCNA...etc... How many of those people could configure a medium > level > > network lab without the directions > > > > How many could trouble shoot their way out of a paper bag > > > > If people dont try to really learn the systems, all certifications will be > > no better than a 3rd grade diploma! > > > > sorry for my soap box,
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
Thank you, Kevin. Larry Puckette Network Analyst CCNA,MCP,LANCP Temple Inland [EMAIL PROTECTED] 512/434-1838 -Original Message- From: Kevin Wigle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] nope - don't like this. That makes me a slave to a company. If you haven't guessed I'm a contractor. If I couldn't get the cert then I would lose most of my business. I don't want to work for someone else (unless I go into semi-retirement). I paid for all my training and my exams. The cert belongs to me. If the company paid the training/exams then I owe them either repayment or a guaranteed term of work. But when/if I leave after fulfilling the requirement - the cert goes with me. Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: "Oliver Nadalin" To: Sent: Thursday, 31 January, 2002 17:09 Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > I agree with everything said so far...what needs to change is the way > Microsoft, and now Cisco and most training providers and study guide > publishers advertise the IT industry as a way of making the 'big bucks' - > the only people making the big bucks are these guys. People looking for a > career change read the hype about how much money can be made becoming an > MCSE, CCNA etc so they take courses, study guides, practice exams - with no > experience - get the cert then all of a sudden the industry is flooded. > > I'd like to see something like what Compaq does with the ASE - you can only > get the cert if you are working for a Compaq partnerthis would really > cut down on the amount of paper certified people. A little heavy handed but > i think for the best in the long term - at least protects the integrity of > the certification industry and the industry in general. > > > ""Guy"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > A CCIE With no work experience > > > > I think most employers would shy away from that! A CCNP, or CCNA possible, > > but CCIE... Im not sure. That would be like a Brain surgeon with no work > > experience... WHat would you pay him to operate on your brain > > > > Makes you think eh??? I think your best bet is to get a job as a CCNP or > > CCNA, get a year or two experience (Minimum) then worry about CCIE. Maybe > > work some other certs in there too, like Unix or maybe Microsoft or > > something to round you out a bit more and make some opportunities in the > > market for yourself... Or firewalls, and or something like tripwire etc... > > > > My point is, If you have a CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, and 50 other certifications > > behind your name, and no work experience, poeple are going to know you are > a > > good test taker, but you will still be starting off at the bottom. With a > > salary range of maybe 30-50k But that CCIE is not going to make it 100k no > > matter what your cousins brother or whatever told you. All the > > certifications are for is to take someone who has the experience, and > > skills, and gives them something they can use as proof of their expertise. > > > > It is not for an entry level person to get so they can get a higher start > > pay... All that does is cheapen the cert. > > > > Look at the MCSE. Back when I took my MCSE, that cert gave me credibility. > I > > walked out of every interview with an offer. I could make my own choices. > I > > took my MCSE after several years of workwith Net systems including Novell, > > IBM OS/2, and Microsoft. It was more of a proof of my skill set. Not a > proof > > I can read Brain Dumps, and hope I will do ok if someone gives me the > > chance... > > > > Now days you mention MCSE, and what goes through your mind??? Thats right > > Worthless. > > > > Now why is that? > > > > Its because people with no skills heard of someone who became an MCSE, and > > started making 70k or whatever... Then that person decided, Hey, I can > > do that And found Transcenders etc... Became an M CSE, but cant even > > copy files to a floppy > > > > This happened on a large scale, and soon employers were hiring worthless > > MCSEs, and were getting frustrated... > > > > Now, in the IT industry, it has become a low level Cert... TO me that > ticks > > me off. Ive been an MCSE since 96, and mine is prrof of the pudding > not > > a piece of paper... > > > > Now, Cisco is becoming the same way. Look at how many people are becoming > > CCNP...CCNA...etc... How many of those people could configure a medium > level > >
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I go both ways on this issue. There are companies that are "giving away" training to attract cheap call center helpdesk labor and turning out MCSE,A+,Net+,CCNA's with only minial helpdesk experience, and setting the expectation that they will step above the 50k mark in their next job. (One was advertised in the richmond newspaper last week) I think this is setting a false expectation to the person getting the certification and devaluing the people who have it now. On the other hand, someone mentioned the TV show "Pretender", where a special type of person can step into seeveral roles with minimal real experience by "absorbing" everything around them. I am one of those types of people. To Explain what I mean, here is a short list of the jobs I could step into today. Auto Mechanic Diesel Mechanic Tire Service (Heavy Equipment) Hydraulic Service General Machine Shop work Line Cook at a 3 star restaraunt Pc Repair Printer/Plotter Repair Network Administrator Network Engineer/Designer Pre-Sales Network Consultant Cabinetmaking Helpdesk Citrix Administrator In Addition to that, I'm a student pilot and a recreational Scuba diver. -Original Message- From: John Neiberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 5:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] I agree that the IT industry is being way overmarketed. I hear an ad running almost every morning for a training company here in Denver. They claim that the average starting salary for newly certified people with no experience is $60k. I'm not sure, but I think they're on crack. :-) John >>> "Oliver Nadalin" 1/31/02 3:09:33 PM >>> I agree with everything said so far...what needs to change is the way Microsoft, and now Cisco and most training providers and study guide publishers advertise the IT industry as a way of making the 'big bucks' - the only people making the big bucks are these guys. People looking for a career change read the hype about how much money can be made becoming an MCSE, CCNA etc so they take courses, study guides, practice exams - with no experience - get the cert then all of a sudden the industry is flooded. I'd like to see something like what Compaq does with the ASE - you can only get the cert if you are working for a Compaq partnerthis would really cut down on the amount of paper certified people. A little heavy handed but i think for the best in the long term - at least protects the integrity of the certification industry and the industry in general. ""Guy"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > A CCIE With no work experience > > I think most employers would shy away from that! A CCNP, or CCNA possible, > but CCIE... Im not sure. That would be like a Brain surgeon with no work > experience... WHat would you pay him to operate on your brain > > Makes you think eh??? I think your best bet is to get a job as a CCNP or > CCNA, get a year or two experience (Minimum) then worry about CCIE. Maybe > work some other certs in there too, like Unix or maybe Microsoft or > something to round you out a bit more and make some opportunities in the > market for yourself... Or firewalls, and or something like tripwire etc... > > My point is, If you have a CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, and 50 other certifications > behind your name, and no work experience, poeple are going to know you are a > good test taker, but you will still be starting off at the bottom. With a > salary range of maybe 30-50k But that CCIE is not going to make it 100k no > matter what your cousins brother or whatever told you. All the > certifications are for is to take someone who has the experience, and > skills, and gives them something they can use as proof of their expertise. > > It is not for an entry level person to get so they can get a higher start > pay... All that does is cheapen the cert. > > Look at the MCSE. Back when I took my MCSE, that cert gave me credibility. I > walked out of every interview with an offer. I could make my own choices. I > took my MCSE after several years of workwith Net systems including Novell, > IBM OS/2, and Microsoft. It was more of a proof of my skill set. Not a proof > I can read Brain Dumps, and hope I will do ok if someone gives me the > chance... > > Now days you mention MCSE, and what goes through your mind??? Thats right > Worthless. > > Now why is that? > > Its because people with no skills heard of someone who became an MCSE, and > started making 70k or whatever... Then that person decided, Hey, I can > do that And found Transcenders etc... Became an M CSE, but cant even > copy files to a floppy > > This happened on a large scale, and soon employers were hiring worthless > M
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
No kidding... those ads are a "truth in advertising" suit waiting to happen. -Original Message- From: John Neiberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 5:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] I agree that the IT industry is being way overmarketed. I hear an ad running almost every morning for a training company here in Denver. They claim that the average starting salary for newly certified people with no experience is $60k. I'm not sure, but I think they're on crack. :-) John >>> "Oliver Nadalin" 1/31/02 3:09:33 PM >>> I agree with everything said so far...what needs to change is the way Microsoft, and now Cisco and most training providers and study guide publishers advertise the IT industry as a way of making the 'big bucks' - the only people making the big bucks are these guys. People looking for a career change read the hype about how much money can be made becoming an MCSE, CCNA etc so they take courses, study guides, practice exams - with no experience - get the cert then all of a sudden the industry is flooded. I'd like to see something like what Compaq does with the ASE - you can only get the cert if you are working for a Compaq partnerthis would really cut down on the amount of paper certified people. A little heavy handed but i think for the best in the long term - at least protects the integrity of the certification industry and the industry in general. ""Guy"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > A CCIE With no work experience > > I think most employers would shy away from that! A CCNP, or CCNA possible, > but CCIE... Im not sure. That would be like a Brain surgeon with no work > experience... WHat would you pay him to operate on your brain > > Makes you think eh??? I think your best bet is to get a job as a CCNP or > CCNA, get a year or two experience (Minimum) then worry about CCIE. Maybe > work some other certs in there too, like Unix or maybe Microsoft or > something to round you out a bit more and make some opportunities in the > market for yourself... Or firewalls, and or something like tripwire etc... > > My point is, If you have a CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, and 50 other certifications > behind your name, and no work experience, poeple are going to know you are a > good test taker, but you will still be starting off at the bottom. With a > salary range of maybe 30-50k But that CCIE is not going to make it 100k no > matter what your cousins brother or whatever told you. All the > certifications are for is to take someone who has the experience, and > skills, and gives them something they can use as proof of their expertise. > > It is not for an entry level person to get so they can get a higher start > pay... All that does is cheapen the cert. > > Look at the MCSE. Back when I took my MCSE, that cert gave me credibility. I > walked out of every interview with an offer. I could make my own choices. I > took my MCSE after several years of workwith Net systems including Novell, > IBM OS/2, and Microsoft. It was more of a proof of my skill set. Not a proof > I can read Brain Dumps, and hope I will do ok if someone gives me the > chance... > > Now days you mention MCSE, and what goes through your mind??? Thats right > Worthless. > > Now why is that? > > Its because people with no skills heard of someone who became an MCSE, and > started making 70k or whatever... Then that person decided, Hey, I can > do that And found Transcenders etc... Became an M CSE, but cant even > copy files to a floppy > > This happened on a large scale, and soon employers were hiring worthless > MCSEs, and were getting frustrated... > > Now, in the IT industry, it has become a low level Cert... TO me that ticks > me off. Ive been an MCSE since 96, and mine is prrof of the pudding not > a piece of paper... > > Now, Cisco is becoming the same way. Look at how many people are becoming > CCNP...CCNA...etc... How many of those people could configure a medium level > network lab without the directions > > How many could trouble shoot their way out of a paper bag > > If people dont try to really learn the systems, all certifications will be > no better than a 3rd grade diploma! > > sorry for my soap box, just really feel people take these things the wrong > way If people dont wake up, then all of this is for nothing... > > I would not be happy spending a couple thousand dollars to get a 3rd grade > diploma > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Joe Carr" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:26 PM > Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > what wo
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
Sorry - Can't agree with that. Do you think that being a Cisco partner means you don't have Paper Certs? I work for a gold partner. We have paper certs all over the place. Probably more than others, because our company needs the certs for the partner status. People are pushed in to taking the exams quicker than they would like to. I can read to pass an exam, but I would prefer to study the subjects more closely. I believe Cisco specifies a certain amount of investment in training, lab equipment etc. but how is it regulated? Badly I think. Gaz ""Oliver Nadalin"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > I agree with everything said so far...what needs to change is the way > Microsoft, and now Cisco and most training providers and study guide > publishers advertise the IT industry as a way of making the 'big bucks' - > the only people making the big bucks are these guys. People looking for a > career change read the hype about how much money can be made becoming an > MCSE, CCNA etc so they take courses, study guides, practice exams - with no > experience - get the cert then all of a sudden the industry is flooded. > > I'd like to see something like what Compaq does with the ASE - you can only > get the cert if you are working for a Compaq partnerthis would really > cut down on the amount of paper certified people. A little heavy handed but > i think for the best in the long term - at least protects the integrity of > the certification industry and the industry in general. > > > ""Guy"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > A CCIE With no work experience > > > > I think most employers would shy away from that! A CCNP, or CCNA possible, > > but CCIE... Im not sure. That would be like a Brain surgeon with no work > > experience... WHat would you pay him to operate on your brain > > > > Makes you think eh??? I think your best bet is to get a job as a CCNP or > > CCNA, get a year or two experience (Minimum) then worry about CCIE. Maybe > > work some other certs in there too, like Unix or maybe Microsoft or > > something to round you out a bit more and make some opportunities in the > > market for yourself... Or firewalls, and or something like tripwire etc... > > > > My point is, If you have a CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, and 50 other certifications > > behind your name, and no work experience, poeple are going to know you are > a > > good test taker, but you will still be starting off at the bottom. With a > > salary range of maybe 30-50k But that CCIE is not going to make it 100k no > > matter what your cousins brother or whatever told you. All the > > certifications are for is to take someone who has the experience, and > > skills, and gives them something they can use as proof of their expertise. > > > > It is not for an entry level person to get so they can get a higher start > > pay... All that does is cheapen the cert. > > > > Look at the MCSE. Back when I took my MCSE, that cert gave me credibility. > I > > walked out of every interview with an offer. I could make my own choices. > I > > took my MCSE after several years of workwith Net systems including Novell, > > IBM OS/2, and Microsoft. It was more of a proof of my skill set. Not a > proof > > I can read Brain Dumps, and hope I will do ok if someone gives me the > > chance... > > > > Now days you mention MCSE, and what goes through your mind??? Thats right > > Worthless. > > > > Now why is that? > > > > Its because people with no skills heard of someone who became an MCSE, and > > started making 70k or whatever... Then that person decided, Hey, I can > > do that And found Transcenders etc... Became an M CSE, but cant even > > copy files to a floppy > > > > This happened on a large scale, and soon employers were hiring worthless > > MCSEs, and were getting frustrated... > > > > Now, in the IT industry, it has become a low level Cert... TO me that > ticks > > me off. Ive been an MCSE since 96, and mine is prrof of the pudding > not > > a piece of paper... > > > > Now, Cisco is becoming the same way. Look at how many people are becoming > > CCNP...CCNA...etc... How many of those people could configure a medium > level > > network lab without the directions > > > > How many could trouble shoot their way out of a paper bag > > > > If people dont try to really learn the systems, all certifications will be > > no better than a 3rd grade diploma! > > > > sorry for my soap box, just really feel people take these things the wrong > > way If people dont wake up, then all of this is for nothing... > > > > I would not be happy spending a couple thousand dollars to get a 3rd grade > > diploma > > > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Joe Carr" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:26 PM > > Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > > > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://ww
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
Change the original posters question to include: How about a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, CCDP, CCIE with 16 years of Telecom experience. (DS0,DS1, DS3, OC-3 to OC-192, DWDM) Telco switch etc. (test, turn-up, trouble-shooting)and only physical experience with IT? ""Guy"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Well, more power to you!!! > > As far as what you should expect > > An entry level NOC position If you go in with the attitude that you > should be at a Senior Level because of the IE, then you will be one of the > ones crying about how theres no jobs available... Which ever way you go, I > doubt your CCIE will have any more leverage than your CCNP will... Something > that might be a good move for you is a latteral move within your ISP. in the > AS support or something But it sounds like you are the person the > average user calls when they cant get the little E thing on their desktop to > do anything If thats your position, get out and move... If you support > the companies about their T1, then your in a good starting place... > > Best of luck, everyone has to start, but Im afraid the CCIE at this stage > may hurt you... > > Heres what I mean You are qualified for entry level... Your > Certifications say you are over qualified Your work experience says your > under qualified for your certs... > > What does an employer do? If they have delt with a CCIE before, they > probobly wont consider you because they dont have the confidence in you to > control their multi million dollar network > > On the otherside... Your certifications would get you overlooked for the > positions you would excel at quickly and allow you to get the experience, > because they dont think you would accept any offer for a lower position... > > So your resume gets dumped > > Some important things to consider. > > I would not consider your resume if it had all of that, and all within one > year... My first instinct would be BRAIN DUMPS... CHEET SHEETS > TRANSCENDERS, and I would throw your resume away > > Now someone with CCNA, maybe CCNP, but not too much, would get my attention > for a good paying entry to mid level position > > CCIE is upper level position Cant put you in charge of my team of > engineers with experience levels ranging from 2-10 years when you have > 0-1 No one would folllow you. It would not be a good team anymore > These are things beyond the technical aspect that management must face. > > Just think about it.. Im not trying to keep you from succeding, just trying > to keep you from hurting yourself... > > Its like the small company that saves up their money for a Super Bowl Ad... > They get 3 million responses and their 2 man company cant handle it WHat > happens to them? > > They run themselves out of business... too much too fast... > > - Original Message - > From: "John Neiberger" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:31 PM > Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > To go through those certs that quickly is very impressive! If you pass > > the lab, I still think you will get a lot of funny looks when you say > > you have no work experience, yet you are a CCIE. As long as you're > > prepared for that, it's up to you to sell yourself. It will be tough > > but I think if you can show that you really know your stuff, you should > > be able to find a pretty good job. > > > > However, I wouldn't count on a huge salary right at the begging simply > > because of the certifications. > > > > Good luck! > > John > > > > >>> "Joe Carr" 1/31/02 12:33:02 PM >>> > > I'm going for my CCIE now and I have completed the CCNA,CCDA,CCNP,CCIE > > written all within the last five months. I currently work for an ISP in > > tech > > support (help desk) and I do not not have NOC experience. I have a > > very > > impressive lab and plan to boe done with the CCIE lab in about four > > months. > > am just wondering what I should expect out there, I just turrend 21 so > > I > > still pritty young yet but I have gotten all of these certs plus an > > MCDBA > > and A+ in less then a year. > > > > Joe Carr > > A+, MCDBA, CCNA, CCDA, CCNP > > - Original Message - > > From: "John Neiberger" > > To: ; > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:47 PM > > Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > > > > I'd be surprised if you could find a CCIE with no work experience. > > Even > > > if you could, they
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I disagree. There is not a Cisco test, nor any technical test for that matter that a person can't pass with a whole lot of studying and some lab time. Yes the CCIE lab is extremely difficult. But to say it's impossible to pass without 'real world' experience is just wrong. Regards, -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:09 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] Is there such "D CCIE with no experience" I highly doubt that ladies and gents, The whole point of a CCIE Lab is to prove the experience you have gained in the field and how you go about building and troubleshooting a network. Friends of mine that are good engineers with extensive experience failed the exam first time. The amount of time you get in the lab exam gives you no time to refer back to the documentation cd or to even think to hard!, you have to know exactly what to do and how to do it and you have to do as fast as you possibly can. Anyone that has attempted the lab knows how draining it is both physically and especially mentally. It is not easy! For those of us attempting the lab and for those that have already achieved there numbers we know we cannot do it without hands on and a good troubleshooting base. Good Luck -Original Message- From: Steve Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] Man that's an insult. A CCIE with no experience. I guess I will go back to building race cars. -Original Message- From: Joe Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=34322&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
He should be getting ready for retirement so that the youngs ones should take over. - Original Message - From: Jeff Buehler To: Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 2:22 PM Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > Change the original posters question to include: > > How about a CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, CCDP, CCIE with 16 years of Telecom > experience. (DS0,DS1, DS3, OC-3 to OC-192, DWDM) Telco switch etc. > (test, turn-up, trouble-shooting)and only physical experience with IT? > > > > > ""Guy"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > Well, more power to you!!! > > > > As far as what you should expect > > > > An entry level NOC position If you go in with the attitude that you > > should be at a Senior Level because of the IE, then you will be one of the > > ones crying about how theres no jobs available... Which ever way you go, I > > doubt your CCIE will have any more leverage than your CCNP will... > Something > > that might be a good move for you is a latteral move within your ISP. in > the > > AS support or something But it sounds like you are the person the > > average user calls when they cant get the little E thing on their desktop > to > > do anything If thats your position, get out and move... If you support > > the companies about their T1, then your in a good starting place... > > > > Best of luck, everyone has to start, but Im afraid the CCIE at this stage > > may hurt you... > > > > Heres what I mean You are qualified for entry level... Your > > Certifications say you are over qualified Your work experience says > your > > under qualified for your certs... > > > > What does an employer do? If they have delt with a CCIE before, they > > probobly wont consider you because they dont have the confidence in you to > > control their multi million dollar network > > > > On the otherside... Your certifications would get you overlooked for the > > positions you would excel at quickly and allow you to get the experience, > > because they dont think you would accept any offer for a lower position... > > > > So your resume gets dumped > > > > Some important things to consider. > > > > I would not consider your resume if it had all of that, and all within one > > year... My first instinct would be BRAIN DUMPS... CHEET SHEETS > > TRANSCENDERS, and I would throw your resume away > > > > Now someone with CCNA, maybe CCNP, but not too much, would get my > attention > > for a good paying entry to mid level position > > > > CCIE is upper level position Cant put you in charge of my team of > > engineers with experience levels ranging from 2-10 years when you have > > 0-1 No one would folllow you. It would not be a good team anymore > > These are things beyond the technical aspect that management must face. > > > > Just think about it.. Im not trying to keep you from succeding, just > trying > > to keep you from hurting yourself... > > > > Its like the small company that saves up their money for a Super Bowl > Ad... > > They get 3 million responses and their 2 man company cant handle it > WHat > > happens to them? > > > > They run themselves out of business... too much too fast... > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "John Neiberger" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:31 PM > > Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > > > > To go through those certs that quickly is very impressive! If you pass > > > the lab, I still think you will get a lot of funny looks when you say > > > you have no work experience, yet you are a CCIE. As long as you're > > > prepared for that, it's up to you to sell yourself. It will be tough > > > but I think if you can show that you really know your stuff, you should > > > be able to find a pretty good job. > > > > > > However, I wouldn't count on a huge salary right at the begging simply > > > because of the certifications. > > > > > > Good luck! > > > John > > > > > > >>> "Joe Carr" 1/31/02 12:33:02 PM >>> > > > I'm going for my CCIE now and I have completed the CCNA,CCDA,CCNP,CCIE > > > written all within the last five months. I currently work for an ISP in > > > tech > > > support (help desk) and I do not not have NOC experience. I have a > > > very > > > impressive lab an
Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
Marshal, I totally agree, I dont think it's impossible for a candidate to pass without real-world hands-on experience. IMHO the program is actually quite a bit harder now, than it was a couple years ago. The program DID start as a way to test for hands-on experience, but the program has gone a different direction in the past couple years. There's such a wide/diverse and focused consulting/implementation field, I think it would be extremely difficult to focus on testing "hands-on." There would have to be 30+ different CCIE specialization programs (with a much larger variety of hardware/software differences used for each specialization as well). It would be an administrative nightmare for Cisco to administer such a program. -Brad Ellis CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security) Network Learning Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] used Cisco gear: www.optsys.net CCIE Labs, racks, and classes: http://www.ccbootcamp.com/quicklinks.html ""Marshal Schoener"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > I disagree. > There is not a Cisco test, nor any technical test for that matter that a > person can't pass with a whole lot of studying and some lab time. > > Yes the CCIE lab is extremely difficult. But to say it's impossible to pass > without 'real world' experience is just wrong. > >Regards, > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:09 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > Is there such > "D CCIE with no experience" > I highly doubt that ladies and gents, The whole point of a CCIE Lab is to > prove the experience you have gained in the field and how you go about > building and troubleshooting a network. > Friends of mine that are good engineers with extensive experience failed > the exam first time. > The amount of time you get in the lab exam gives you no time to refer back > to the documentation cd or to even think to hard!, you have to know exactly > what to do and how to do it and you have to do as fast as you possibly > can. > Anyone that has attempted the lab knows how draining it is both physically > and especially mentally. It is not easy! > For those of us attempting the lab and for those that have already achieved > there numbers we know we cannot do it without hands on and a good > troubleshooting base. > Good Luck > > -Original Message- > From: Steve Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:22 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > Man that's an insult. A CCIE with no experience. I guess I will go back > to building race cars. > > -Original Message- > From: Joe Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:27 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=34325&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I have to jump in here. The original post said he had an impressive lab. If he uses the lab and works through scenarios, isn't this what the rest of you are calling experience. He doesn't get paid to do it, but he probably would end up with more experience than some of the people that we all work with collecting a pay check. IMHO Dean Whitley p.s. Joe, from the sounds of your post and initiative to achieve all those certs, I think a company would be foolish to not hire someone like you. -Original Message- From: Brad Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] Marshal, I totally agree, I dont think it's impossible for a candidate to pass without real-world hands-on experience. IMHO the program is actually quite a bit harder now, than it was a couple years ago. The program DID start as a way to test for hands-on experience, but the program has gone a different direction in the past couple years. There's such a wide/diverse and focused consulting/implementation field, I think it would be extremely difficult to focus on testing "hands-on." There would have to be 30+ different CCIE specialization programs (with a much larger variety of hardware/software differences used for each specialization as well). It would be an administrative nightmare for Cisco to administer such a program. -Brad Ellis CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security) Network Learning Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] used Cisco gear: www.optsys.net CCIE Labs, racks, and classes: http://www.ccbootcamp.com/quicklinks.html ""Marshal Schoener"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > I disagree. > There is not a Cisco test, nor any technical test for that matter that a > person can't pass with a whole lot of studying and some lab time. > > Yes the CCIE lab is extremely difficult. But to say it's impossible to pass > without 'real world' experience is just wrong. > >Regards, > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:09 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > Is there such > "D CCIE with no experience" > I highly doubt that ladies and gents, The whole point of a CCIE Lab is to > prove the experience you have gained in the field and how you go about > building and troubleshooting a network. > Friends of mine that are good engineers with extensive experience failed > the exam first time. > The amount of time you get in the lab exam gives you no time to refer back > to the documentation cd or to even think to hard!, you have to know exactly > what to do and how to do it and you have to do as fast as you possibly > can. > Anyone that has attempted the lab knows how draining it is both physically > and especially mentally. It is not easy! > For those of us attempting the lab and for those that have already achieved > there numbers we know we cannot do it without hands on and a good > troubleshooting base. > Good Luck > > -Original Message- > From: Steve Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:22 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > Man that's an insult. A CCIE with no experience. I guess I will go back > to building race cars. > > -Original Message- > From: Joe Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:27 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=34348&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
Lets do the math on this: A+ Cert= 2 tests MCDBA= 5 tests CCNA= 1 test CCDA= 1 test CCNP= 4 test CCIE Written= 1 test Total in LESS than a year= 13 tests! WOW! Yes that is impressive but I'm wondering how much can someone remember of each test if they have taken that many in such a short period of time? If it is possible, while being able to retain most of it, that is great! What saddens me most is that a lot of people in the industry do stuff or try to obtain certifications with the main goal of money. Most people I talk to say they are going into the field because they can make more money are want to obtain a cert for money. What happened to wanting to excel in your field because you like what you do or because you want to be the best you can be. Yes the field is saturated but only the people that have a love for what they do and want to excel for personal knowledge will rise to the top. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 9:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] I have to jump in here. The original post said he had an impressive lab. If he uses the lab and works through scenarios, isn't this what the rest of you are calling experience. He doesn't get paid to do it, but he probably would end up with more experience than some of the people that we all work with collecting a pay check. IMHO Dean Whitley p.s. Joe, from the sounds of your post and initiative to achieve all those certs, I think a company would be foolish to not hire someone like you. -Original Message- From: Brad Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] Marshal, I totally agree, I dont think it's impossible for a candidate to pass without real-world hands-on experience. IMHO the program is actually quite a bit harder now, than it was a couple years ago. The program DID start as a way to test for hands-on experience, but the program has gone a different direction in the past couple years. There's such a wide/diverse and focused consulting/implementation field, I think it would be extremely difficult to focus on testing "hands-on." There would have to be 30+ different CCIE specialization programs (with a much larger variety of hardware/software differences used for each specialization as well). It would be an administrative nightmare for Cisco to administer such a program. -Brad Ellis CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security) Network Learning Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] used Cisco gear: www.optsys.net CCIE Labs, racks, and classes: http://www.ccbootcamp.com/quicklinks.html ""Marshal Schoener"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > I disagree. > There is not a Cisco test, nor any technical test for that matter that a > person can't pass with a whole lot of studying and some lab time. > > Yes the CCIE lab is extremely difficult. But to say it's impossible to pass > without 'real world' experience is just wrong. > >Regards, > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:09 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > Is there such > "D CCIE with no experience" > I highly doubt that ladies and gents, The whole point of a CCIE Lab is to > prove the experience you have gained in the field and how you go about > building and troubleshooting a network. > Friends of mine that are good engineers with extensive experience failed > the exam first time. > The amount of time you get in the lab exam gives you no time to refer back > to the documentation cd or to even think to hard!, you have to know exactly > what to do and how to do it and you have to do as fast as you possibly > can. > Anyone that has attempted the lab knows how draining it is both physically > and especially mentally. It is not easy! > For those of us attempting the lab and for those that have already achieved > there numbers we know we cannot do it without hands on and a good > troubleshooting base. > Good Luck > > -Original Message- > From: Steve Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:22 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > Man that's an insult. A CCIE with no experience. I guess I will go back > to building race cars. > > -Original Message- > From: Joe Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:27 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=34355&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Long....RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
After receiving an email from Joe, I would agree that he sounds like a very intelligent person with tremendous initiative. I'd like to differentiate between lab experience and OTJ experience. Learning to configure OSPF, EIGRP, and BGP at home is one thing. Going to a customer site who has 200 nodes, half of which were acquired from another company and are running OSPF while half are running EIGRP and all areas need to be able to communicate with each other and also have multiple redundant and area-diverse connections to different internet providers using BGP...that is experience. :-) Then, after a decision has been made to use a single IGP, make a choice between EIGRP and OSPF, or even IS-IS. Justify your reasoning and then determine a migration plan that minimizes customer downtime and guarantees that all areas have internet access at all times even if their local provider goes down. Help the customer to coordinate with ARIN and service providers to get the necessary address space and an assigned autonomous system number. When a given area has multiple connections to the same ISP, attempt to influence routing in the ISP so that it takes the closest entrance into your network for that user. Attempt to influence routing within each ISP so that you increase the chances that optimal routing will occur. Make certain that you only advertise the necessary prefixes while filtering all others. Configure routing within each area to take the closet exit possible, within reason. Provision and order the necessary circuits after getting quotes from several providers. Make a determination when and if point to point links could/should be used and where frame relay or ATM would be most suitable. Make sure that you have plenty of room for growth and enough bandwidth to support video conferencing over IP for certain sections of this network. Determine which type of traffic shaping, queueing, and/or rate limiting might be necessary and where it would be most useful. Upgrade routers and switches as necessary, making sure that you won't run into processor limitations during high traffic loads and you have enough WIC and NM slots available to support the connections you require. Make sure you select an IOS that supports those modules and software features you'll needwhile minimizing the number of bugs that might affect you. Determine a backup plan for each area and include ISDN backup links, making sure the backup links can pass both IP, IPX, and some DLSw+ but do not pass streaming video and other non-essential traffic. Create a network infrastructure disaster recovery plan for each area and document your procedures. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, and *that's* what I mean by experience. Certainly, your experience doesn't need to be this comprehensive and detailed, I'm simply exaggerating to make a point. There is a *huge* difference between learning to configure this stuff at home and actually implementing it in the real world. Granted, this would be a huge task but it's one that a CCIE along with a group of engineers would be expected to be able to handle. A CCIE--even a highly intelligent and motivated one--with no experience would have difficulty with this. John >>> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" 2/4/02 10:23:37 AM >>> I have to jump in here. The original post said he had an impressive lab. If he uses the lab and works through scenarios, isn't this what the rest of you are calling experience. He doesn't get paid to do it, but he probably would end up with more experience than some of the people that we all work with collecting a pay check. IMHO Dean Whitley p.s. Joe, from the sounds of your post and initiative to achieve all those certs, I think a company would be foolish to not hire someone like you. -Original Message- From: Brad Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] Marshal, I totally agree, I dont think it's impossible for a candidate to pass without real-world hands-on experience. IMHO the program is actually quite a bit harder now, than it was a couple years ago. The program DID start as a way to test for hands-on experience, but the program has gone a different direction in the past couple years. There's such a wide/diverse and focused consulting/implementation field, I think it would be extremely difficult to focus on testing "hands-on." There would have to be 30+ different CCIE specialization programs (with a much larger variety of hardware/software differences used for each specialization as well). It would be an administrative nightmare for Cisco to administer such a program. -Brad Ellis CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security) Network Learning Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] used Cisco gear: www.optsys.net CCIE Labs, racks, and classes: http://www.ccbootcamp.com/quicklinks.h
RE: Long....RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
To add onto it...experience helps you support such networks and high profile web sites and enterprise networks in real time, where downtime is counted in minutes and sometimes in seconds. It is impossible to do clear ip bgp * and get your bgp routes which one may do all the time while preparing in a home lab. In my personal opinion, today it is possible to pass ccie lab by simply studying in home lab with all the help from books, lab workbooks, bootcamps, home lab and group studies out there, which is very good thing. I am sure, it was not the case in 1998 when Paul B. (taking him as a example only) passed his test. I think cisco should remove some of the old technologies from the lab and add some of these cool real world scenarios to a reasobale extent that John mentioned below. May be have candidates log to syslog and ask them that they can not type clear ip bgp more than twice in the whole lab. That will make candidates think from real world angle. That is just an example, many such things come to mind. Impressive article John, you described ccie's day in real world very well. -Keyur Shah- CCIE# 4799 (Security; Routing and Switching) css1,scsa,scna,mct,mcse,cni,mcne Hello Computers "Say Hello to Your Future!" http://www.hellocomputers.com Toll-Free: 1.877.794.3556 "Now offering CCIE Security Lab Workbook and remote bootcamp, http://www.hellocomputers.com/hellosuccess.html"; -Original Message- From: John Neiberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 10:25 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Long....RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] After receiving an email from Joe, I would agree that he sounds like a very intelligent person with tremendous initiative. I'd like to differentiate between lab experience and OTJ experience. Learning to configure OSPF, EIGRP, and BGP at home is one thing. Going to a customer site who has 200 nodes, half of which were acquired from another company and are running OSPF while half are running EIGRP and all areas need to be able to communicate with each other and also have multiple redundant and area-diverse connections to different internet providers using BGP...that is experience. :-) Then, after a decision has been made to use a single IGP, make a choice between EIGRP and OSPF, or even IS-IS. Justify your reasoning and then determine a migration plan that minimizes customer downtime and guarantees that all areas have internet access at all times even if their local provider goes down. Help the customer to coordinate with ARIN and service providers to get the necessary address space and an assigned autonomous system number. When a given area has multiple connections to the same ISP, attempt to influence routing in the ISP so that it takes the closest entrance into your network for that user. Attempt to influence routing within each ISP so that you increase the chances that optimal routing will occur. Make certain that you only advertise the necessary prefixes while filtering all others. Configure routing within each area to take the closet exit possible, within reason. Provision and order the necessary circuits after getting quotes from several providers. Make a determination when and if point to point links could/should be used and where frame relay or ATM would be most suitable. Make sure that you have plenty of room for growth and enough bandwidth to support video conferencing over IP for certain sections of this network. Determine which type of traffic shaping, queueing, and/or rate limiting might be necessary and where it would be most useful. Upgrade routers and switches as necessary, making sure that you won't run into processor limitations during high traffic loads and you have enough WIC and NM slots available to support the connections you require. Make sure you select an IOS that supports those modules and software features you'll needwhile minimizing the number of bugs that might affect you. Determine a backup plan for each area and include ISDN backup links, making sure the backup links can pass both IP, IPX, and some DLSw+ but do not pass streaming video and other non-essential traffic. Create a network infrastructure disaster recovery plan for each area and document your procedures. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, and *that's* what I mean by experience. Certainly, your experience doesn't need to be this comprehensive and detailed, I'm simply exaggerating to make a point. There is a *huge* difference between learning to configure this stuff at home and actually implementing it in the real world. Granted, this would be a huge task but it's one that a CCIE along with a group of engineers would be expected to be able to handle. A CCIE--even a highly intelligent and motivated one--with no experience would have difficulty with this. John >>> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" 2/4/02 10:23:37 AM >>> I have to
Re: Long....RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
ne that a CCIE along with > a group of engineers would be expected to be able to handle. A > CCIE--even a highly intelligent and motivated one--with no experience > would have difficulty with this. > > John > > >>> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" 2/4/02 10:23:37 AM >>> > I have to jump in here. The original post said he had an impressive > lab. > If he uses the lab and works through scenarios, isn't this what the > rest of > you are calling experience. He doesn't get paid to do it, but he > probably > would end up with more experience than some of the people that we all > work > with collecting a pay check. > > IMHO > Dean Whitley > > p.s. > > Joe, from the sounds of your post and initiative to achieve all those > certs, > I think a company would be foolish to not hire someone like you. > > > -Original Message- > From: Brad Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:10 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > Marshal, > > I totally agree, I dont think it's impossible for a candidate to pass > without real-world hands-on experience. IMHO the program is actually > quite > a bit harder now, than it was a couple years ago. The program DID start > as a > way to test for hands-on experience, but the program has gone a > different > direction in the past couple years. > > There's such a wide/diverse and focused consulting/implementation > field, I > think it would be extremely difficult to focus on testing "hands-on." > There > would have to be 30+ different CCIE specialization programs (with a > much > larger variety of hardware/software differences used for each > specialization > as well). It would be an administrative nightmare for Cisco to > administer > such a program. > > -Brad Ellis > CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security) > Network Learning Inc > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > used Cisco gear: www.optsys.net > CCIE Labs, racks, and classes: > http://www.ccbootcamp.com/quicklinks.html > > ""Marshal Schoener"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > I disagree. > > There is not a Cisco test, nor any technical test for that matter > that a > > person can't pass with a whole lot of studying and some lab time. > > > > Yes the CCIE lab is extremely difficult. But to say it's impossible > to > pass > > without 'real world' experience is just wrong. > > > >Regards, > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:09 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > > > Is there such > > "D CCIE with no experience" > > I highly doubt that ladies and gents, The whole point of a CCIE Lab > is to > > prove the experience you have gained in the field and how you go > about > > building and troubleshooting a network. > > Friends of mine that are good engineers with extensive experience > failed > > the exam first time. > > The amount of time you get in the lab exam gives you no time to refer > back > > to the documentation cd or to even think to hard!, you have to know > exactly > > what to do and how to do it and you have to do as fast as you > possibly > > can. > > Anyone that has attempted the lab knows how draining it is both > physically > > and especially mentally. It is not easy! > > For those of us attempting the lab and for those that have already > achieved > > there numbers we know we cannot do it without hands on and a good > > troubleshooting base. > > Good Luck > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Steve Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:22 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > > > Man that's an insult. A CCIE with no experience. I guess I will go > back > > to building race cars. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Joe Carr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:27 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > > > > what would be the average starting pay for CCIE with no work > experience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=34359&t=33899 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Long....RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
If I may ask, why exactly is it a good thing that people can pass the lab with just books, lab gear, and groupstudy, without ever having touched a production network in his life? This kind of thing is precisely the enabler of all these lab-rat CCIE's that are starting to seriously water down the prestige of the program. ""Keyur Shah"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > To add onto it...experience helps you support such networks and high profile > web sites and enterprise networks in real time, where downtime is counted in > minutes and sometimes in seconds. It is impossible to do clear ip bgp * and > get your bgp routes which one may do all the time while preparing in a home > lab. > > In my personal opinion, today it is possible to pass ccie lab by simply > studying in home lab with all the help from books, lab workbooks, bootcamps, > home lab and group studies out there, which is very good thing. I am sure, > it was not the case in 1998 when Paul B. (taking him as a example only) > passed his test. I think cisco should remove some of the old technologies > from the lab and add some of these cool real world scenarios to a reasobale > extent that John mentioned below. May be have candidates log to syslog and > ask them that they can not type clear ip bgp more than twice in the whole > lab. That will make candidates think from real world angle. That is just an > example, many such things come to mind. > > Impressive article John, you described ccie's day in real world very well. > > -Keyur Shah- > CCIE# 4799 (Security; Routing and Switching) > css1,scsa,scna,mct,mcse,cni,mcne > Hello Computers > "Say Hello to Your Future!" > http://www.hellocomputers.com > Toll-Free: 1.877.794.3556 > "Now offering CCIE Security Lab Workbook and remote bootcamp, > http://www.hellocomputers.com/hellosuccess.html"; > > -Original Message----- > From: John Neiberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 10:25 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: LongRE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > After receiving an email from Joe, I would agree that he sounds like a very > intelligent person with tremendous initiative. I'd like to differentiate > between lab experience and OTJ experience. > > Learning to configure OSPF, EIGRP, and BGP at home is one thing. > > Going to a customer site who has 200 nodes, half of which were acquired from > another company and are running OSPF while half are running EIGRP and all > areas need to be able to communicate with each other and also have multiple > redundant and area-diverse connections to different internet providers using > BGP...that is experience. :-) > > Then, after a decision has been made to use a single IGP, make a choice > between EIGRP and OSPF, or even IS-IS. Justify your reasoning and then > determine a migration plan that minimizes customer downtime and guarantees > that all areas have internet access at all times even if their local > provider goes down. > > Help the customer to coordinate with ARIN and service providers to get the > necessary address space and an assigned autonomous system number. > > When a given area has multiple connections to the same ISP, attempt to > influence routing in the ISP so that it takes the closest entrance into your > network for that user. Attempt to influence routing within each ISP so that > you increase the chances that optimal routing will occur. > Make certain that you only advertise the necessary prefixes while filtering > all others. Configure routing within each area to take the closet exit > possible, within reason. > > Provision and order the necessary circuits after getting quotes from several > providers. Make a determination when and if point to point links > could/should be used and where frame relay or ATM would be most suitable. > Make sure that you have plenty of room for growth and enough bandwidth to > support video conferencing over IP for certain sections of this network. > Determine which type of traffic shaping, queueing, and/or rate limiting > might be necessary and where it would be most useful. > > Upgrade routers and switches as necessary, making sure that you won't run > into processor limitations during high traffic loads and you have enough WIC > and NM slots available to support the connections you require. Make sure > you select an IOS that supports those modules and software features you'll > needwhile minimizing the number of bugs that might affect you. > > Determine a backup plan for each area and include ISDN backup links, making > sure the backup links can pass both IP, IPX, and some DLSw+ but do not pass > streaming vi
RE: Long....RE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899]
I did not mean to say without touching production network. -keyur shah- -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 5:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: LongRE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] If I may ask, why exactly is it a good thing that people can pass the lab with just books, lab gear, and groupstudy, without ever having touched a production network in his life? This kind of thing is precisely the enabler of all these lab-rat CCIE's that are starting to seriously water down the prestige of the program. ""Keyur Shah"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > To add onto it...experience helps you support such networks and high profile > web sites and enterprise networks in real time, where downtime is > counted in > minutes and sometimes in seconds. It is impossible to do clear ip bgp > * and > get your bgp routes which one may do all the time while preparing in a home > lab. > > In my personal opinion, today it is possible to pass ccie lab by > simply studying in home lab with all the help from books, lab > workbooks, bootcamps, > home lab and group studies out there, which is very good thing. I am > sure, it was not the case in 1998 when Paul B. (taking him as a > example only) passed his test. I think cisco should remove some of the > old technologies from the lab and add some of these cool real world > scenarios to a reasobale > extent that John mentioned below. May be have candidates log to syslog > and ask them that they can not type clear ip bgp more than twice in > the whole lab. That will make candidates think from real world angle. > That is just an > example, many such things come to mind. > > Impressive article John, you described ccie's day in real world very > well. > > -Keyur Shah- > CCIE# 4799 (Security; Routing and Switching) > css1,scsa,scna,mct,mcse,cni,mcne Hello Computers > "Say Hello to Your Future!" > http://www.hellocomputers.com > Toll-Free: 1.877.794.3556 > "Now offering CCIE Security Lab Workbook and remote bootcamp, > http://www.hellocomputers.com/hellosuccess.html"; > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Neiberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 10:25 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: LongRE: CCIE starting pay [7:33899] > > > After receiving an email from Joe, I would agree that he sounds like a very > intelligent person with tremendous initiative. I'd like to > differentiate between lab experience and OTJ experience. > > Learning to configure OSPF, EIGRP, and BGP at home is one thing. > > Going to a customer site who has 200 nodes, half of which were > acquired from > another company and are running OSPF while half are running EIGRP and > all areas need to be able to communicate with each other and also have multiple > redundant and area-diverse connections to different internet providers using > BGP...that is experience. :-) > > Then, after a decision has been made to use a single IGP, make a > choice between EIGRP and OSPF, or even IS-IS. Justify your reasoning > and then determine a migration plan that minimizes customer downtime > and guarantees that all areas have internet access at all times even > if their local provider goes down. > > Help the customer to coordinate with ARIN and service providers to get > the necessary address space and an assigned autonomous system number. > > When a given area has multiple connections to the same ISP, attempt to > influence routing in the ISP so that it takes the closest entrance > into your > network for that user. Attempt to influence routing within each ISP > so that > you increase the chances that optimal routing will occur. Make certain > that you only advertise the necessary prefixes while filtering > all others. Configure routing within each area to take the closet > exit possible, within reason. > > Provision and order the necessary circuits after getting quotes from several > providers. Make a determination when and if point to point links > could/should be used and where frame relay or ATM would be most > suitable. Make sure that you have plenty of room for growth and enough > bandwidth to support video conferencing over IP for certain sections > of this network. Determine which type of traffic shaping, queueing, > and/or rate limiting might be necessary and where it would be most > useful. > > Upgrade routers and switches as necessary, making sure that you won't > run into processor limitations during high traffic loads and you have > enough WIC > and NM slots available to support the connections you require. Make &g
