Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- Sno0wl wrote: > Congratulations, Hawk! > > You have made it to my Filter-Delete list. Good. > I have absolutely no idea what you are doing here. You also apparently have no idea what YOU are doing here. > I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say to people on this list that has > any value.. I wouldn't think that you would. > And until something convinces me otherwise, I want to save the bandwith. Good. > IMO, Kris is making a mistake trying to "argue" with you. I'm sorry to see that. You > are clearly a no-win kinda guy. I hadn't noticed... > Enjoy your Mercedes. Have a nice day. I will... or maybe the Cadillac... Gee If I were to get rid of the Cadillac, would it materialize in some African's front yard? Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why Can't Cameras Show Senators?
-Caveat Lector- Brian Redman wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Why can't C-Span's camera show the Senators? When Sen. Tom Harkin > made his objection to the senators being called "jurors," the > camera was allowed to show us Harkin. But ordinarily the camera > is not allowed to show us views of the assembled senators. The > reasoning behind the disallowal of camera's viewing of senators > can't be based on the senators being "jurors" (as Harkin made > clear.) What is the judicial logic that disallows camera views > of the assembled senators? They don't want you to see them: dozing, cutting out paper dolls, scratching themselves, etc. As the adage goes, "One shouldn't watch laws or sausage when they're being made." Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Republican vs Democrat
-Caveat Lector- Jim Norman wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > If fact there is no difference between the parties. It's as if they are all the > same, exactly as you stated. How is it we can find no honorable men to run for an > office and when we do find a good man, we can't get him elected because the local > party boss won't put him on the ballot, or the electorate fails to recognize the > integrity in the candidate, or the election is plain stolen because of voter > fraud? It seems like a dark, deep hole. > Good article, > Jim Norman It is relatively simple When you rob Peter and give the money to Paul, you can generally count on Paul's vote. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > My, my getting testy aren't we. > > In a message dated 1/14/99 11:58:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > >> -Caveat Lector- > >> > >> Gee, hypocrite hawk, how come we are not still doing this today? Taking > slaves in warfare? I mean the Bible says we can; sez H. Hawk. > > > >We, who? I'm not, for one reason, because I'm not fighting any wars at this > >time... Maybe later. > = > Well, let us see, hawk didn't answer this question. Just some 'cute' words. > = I told you why "we" are not taking slaves in warfare.. One reason is because I am not engaged in any applicable warfare in which slaves might be taken.. Another reason is, as I have said many times, I do not want any slaves. If by "we" you mean the United States, I cannot answer for the govm't... I could only presume that they would rather kill people than take slaves. It doesn't mean that they necessarily have an aversion to slavery... and in fact (to keep this topical), I venture there are plans (conspiracies) in the pot right now to enslave people. > >> So a slave has his personal sovereignty? I would submit that his personal > >> sovereignty has been stolen. You just continue to show yourself to be an > >> ignorant hypocrite. > > > >And you continue to show yourself the equivalent of a gradeschool fool... I > think whatever you are doing, you are needed somewhere as the village idiot. > = > Again, hawk has not answered any question or dealt with the issue at hand but > has resorted to name calling and more 'cute' answers. I submit again, does a > slave have personal sovereignty? > = I do not know the definition of words or phrases you concoct. If by "personal" you mean "as an individual" and "sovereignty" you mean absolute control over his affairs, then my answer is "No, a slave does not have personal sovereignty." In fact, neither do non-slaves. > >> Did Jesus have long hair? > > > >I don't know... > = > Hawk can you please tell me what rules are valid in the Old Testament and > which aren't? > = Which "rules" are you asking about? I don't know how you are using the word, "valid." If you mean do the "laws" of Leviticus have jurisdiction over Christians, the answer is "no." If, for instance, you mean "The 10 Commandments," the answer is "None of them." and I base that on, among other passages, Romans 7. There are many passages (particularly entire book of Galatians, and much of Ephesians) that teach specifically, "If you wish to apply any portion of the law upon yourself as an obligation, then you must apply all of it. It is a package deal." However for you, as a Celtic Bhuddist, whatever in the hell that is, it ALL applies to you, according to my understanding of New Testament doctrine on this matter. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Hwody, > Well now, calling someone a hypocrite is not name-calling, It is stating a > fact. It may indeed be a fact that I am a hypocrite And some people may have a real interest in knowing that "fact." However, up to this point, you have not produced a single shred of evidence to support that "fact." I'm waiting... > Many times my remarks have been followed by MHO, which stands for my humble > opinion. Can you point us to the post in which you modified your accusation that I am a hypocrite with the use of "MHO?" If it happened "many times" -- as you say -- there is no need to exhibit all of them, just one or two will do. > In my reading of the bible and understanding of Jesus the Nazerite AKA The > Christ, Hawk is a classic hypocrite. There is much written proof that Hawk is > a hypocrite How about posting some of that "written proof?" Hell, if you cannot find any "proof," how about just some "credible evidence?" > and truly don't feel that he has anything in mind but disruption of this list. What is one expected to do, when called a liar and a hypocrite, unless it is to ask for the evidence to be presented? How is asking for evidence of your lible and slander misconstrued as "disruption of this list?" > But ya have to understand, we been disrupted by eruditer hypocrites than hawk. If your list has ever been disrupted by a hypocrite, he was a more "eruditer hypocrite" than I... seeing as how I haven't been shown any evidence of my presumed hypocrisy. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I thought this issue was satisfactorily addressed, why is it that you are > having a hard time with it? Calling someone a hypocrite when they are one is > not name calling it is merely telling it like it is. The issue has not been addressed AT ALL, much less "satisfactorily." Calling someone a hypocrite WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE is nothing by juvenile name-calling and hasn't a damn thing to do with 'telling it like it is.' However, I'm glad you jumped in here Teo10 or whatever... YOU point out the inconsistency between what I say and what I do... Ball's in your court... jump on it.. > Discussion of the Bible WHEN IT IS USED TO PROSELYTIZE, OR ARGUE BELIEFS, AND OR > FAITH IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THIS LIST. Then maybe you should remind your pal Kris of this rule... I certainly have not violated it.. If so, show me where I used the bible to proseliytize... nor have I urged anyone to believe it.. What I said was that calling something a "sin" requires a bit more than mere personal opinion, and that the Southern people in the mid 1800's looked to the bible as their source for determining right and wrong.. If that isn't a fact, then YOU produce evidence to the contrary.. This is beginning to sound like a broken record... > Using the Bible in arguing CONSPIRACY THEORY is acceptable, or to try and > support ideas that are related to conspiracy theory. Have you reminded Kris of this rule? Where is this rule posted? Did you make it up just now? > You want to argue religious conspiracy, like how Paul, formerly known as Saul, > becomes the chief proponent of "Christianity" and an Apostle when he never met > the Lord, and worked so much evil against the nascent church, that is okay. > You want to argue how Paul's writing contradict those of Jesus on a number of > points, or perhaps how he seemed to have many friends in Rome and may not have > suffered as he would have everyone believe, that is okay too. Arguments that > point out Paul's reliance upon the Mystery religions, such as Mithras and > Attis worship for the main forms of religious expression in "Christianity" > would also be acceptable. Stupid, but anything goes... > These are only examples of course, and many others would also have equal > validity as things that might require the Bible to support the position. No > proselytizing is allowed, so questions of faith and belief are not acceptable. blah, blah, blah give me a break! > The reason that Kris is going into the Bible himself is that he is trying to > illustrate the hypocrisy of Hawk in his statements regarding slavery. And, I might add, he's doing a piss poor job... He hasn't found a singe passage or verse ... and neither will you... Prove me wrong. hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Carlene, you need to realize something. RoadsEnd, otherwise known as Kris > Milligan IS THE LIST OWNER and chief moderator/editor, therefore he can do > anything he wants. Additionally do you think he is going to sit idly by while > people make ridiculous statements in support of slavery using the Bible for > justification? You, Sir, are an ignorant son-of-a-bitch... I issue the same challenge to you that I issued to dumb-ass... You show me ONE statement I made "in support of slavery." Then, while you're at it, show me ONE biblical passage that condemns slavery. You cannot do it, and yet you add your stupid remarks to those of Kris... I keep asking him, and now I challenge you... Show me just one biblical passage that says slavery is immoral... AND show me just one place where I have supported slavery or said I was advocate slavery. > Kris is merely calling the kettle black and asking him to answer his legitimate > questions. Damn! You're stupid! What Kris has been doing, and what you are applauding is dumb-ass Kris's continually calling me a hypocrite and a liar, but never ONCE producing evidence of a lie or any inconsistency with what I say and what I practice. On the other hand, I have patiently answere EVERY question the dumb-ass has asked... Take up the challenge... show me otherwise. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- Alamaine Ratliff wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > My real point about the Abraham passages is: They seem to be inconsistent > (in both cases "Abraham's descendants"). I understand what the Nazarene > was getting at by way of explanation to the descendants of Abraham. They > seemed a little unsure. > > The first passage (Matt) deals with public displays of churchiness ... > 'slavery' to what others' (peers') opinions of any one's abilities to > demonstrate 'holiness' for said 'peers'. This may be seen in the current > context of being a 'slave' to fashion or keeping up with the Jones' -- in > any event worrying about those things for which the reward(s) are derived > from mere mortals rather than from the divine. I, for one, am more > impressed (coincidient with the passage) with those who maintain an inner > sense (innocence?) about their faith rather than those trying to hammer > THEIR interpretation of same into everyone else. One size does not fit all. However, there is only ONE correct interpretation of any written passage... and that is what the writer had in mind when he wrote it... The trick is to determine what that was... and this is best done by following rules of hermaneutics (a field of study of which you admit you have no experience). > I think the whole issue (slavery) can be summed up by pointing out that > what happened in the South or in the Middle East during their respective > times must be taken in context of THE TIMES. Used to be littering (to use > an example from a different extreme) was okay. Times changed. Used to be > going out in the woods and cutting a winter's worth of firewood was okay. > Times changed. However, when speaking with those for whom these kinds of > things may have been okay, their impressions are based on the context of > THEIR times. Fast forward back to today. > > When we look at the past with a 1999 lens, there are all sorts of things > that look average. Or better. Or worse. "The good ol' days." Beyond the > truths contained in ANY religious treatise/test/whathaveyou, the benefits > of having lived in a more idyllic time, I view such things as products of > their times and must therefore look at who was doing what with whom for > what reason and so forth. Because the Europeans may have had compelling > reasons for adopting a Middle Eastern faith system, those reasons should be > examined and thereby applied to what their perceptions were, rightness or > wrongness of their actions -- what they, themselves did -- are something I > can't do a thing about. A modern day person's acceptance of said faith > system should be much different than a person of antiquity's (tradition vs > inquisition, e.g.). Similarly, what passed for human bondage in one > Southern state may have been different in another, or from locus of > commerce to locus of commerce. What ensued as far as resolution of the > problem itself would, in like fashion, be equally unacceptable in today's > world. Can anyone conceive of being asked to go to war to solve a social > issue in the U.S. -- today? Is Kathy Lee mustering troops to go free the > sweat shop denizens? Does anyone recall the times the police and the Guard > and others have been called out to put down if not prevent uprisings -- in > our time? I can and Neil Young made a mint off a song therefrom. I can see it happening in "our times," and I think I will see it happening, perhaps within the next six months... In fact, I saw it happening after a fashion in the aftermath of the great Rodney King incident (that great American philosopher and motorist) in Los Angeles. However, I will admit you were "on a roll" above, and exhiting some evidence of actual thought processes. I congratulate you on rising above mere name-calling. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Gee, You are pretty crafty with your answers there. Gosh , I just don't know > but like I say you are a hypocrite coward still in the pocket of a corrupt > government and military. Oh, now I'm a hypocrite AND a coward... sure... And still in the pocket of a currpt government -- no, but my earnings are surely in their pockets... as for the military, I haven't been associated with them for more years than you've been conscious... but then, that isn't saying much. > Ignorant also. Yes... I am ignorant of many things... But, on the other hand, you are stupid. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Gee, hypocrite hawk, how come we are not still doing this today? Taking slaves > in warfare? I mean the Bible says we can; sez H. Hawk. We, who? I'm not, for one reason, because I'm not fighting any wars at this time... Maybe later. > So a slave has his personal sovereignty? I would submit that his personal > sovereignty has been stolen. You just continue to show yourself to be an > ignorant hypocrite. And you continue to show yourself the equivalent of a gradeschool fool... I think whatever you are doing, you are needed somewhere as the village idiot. > Did Jesus have long hair? I don't know... Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Short memory, hawk? I am sometimes afflicted with short memory... What are specifically addressing? > hawk sez: > > I was in the USAF for almost seven years as a professional military officer > and aviator. During three of those years, I was involved in what later became > known as the "Delta Force," but which then was "Blue Triangle" and a couple of > other secretive names. As such, I engaged in numerous "informal" wars, > insurrections, and general mayhem for the govm't of the U.S. -- often not even > allowed to wear the uniform (we called these "T-shirt and blue-jean missions). > I was also in VietNam quite a bit, before the conflict became a "war." In all > of those missions, we were directly involved on the "wrong" side, or were > sticking our noses into other peoples' affairs, generally helping some > dictatorial govm't obtain or maintain its harsh control over the populace. > Then, for three more years, I was directly involved in intelligence gathering > operations. For three years, every morning, I saw "raw intelligence" -- > information that had not been "laundered" for public consumption. Not one time > -- and I mean not even ONCE -- did the truth about what was going on reach the > average American. We were lied to on a continual basis, and are being lied to > at the present time. I was trained in the process of developing "cover > stories" about things that happened, . . . > > Then dufus asked: > > >> Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops? Cat > got >> your tongue? > Hawk said: >I don't think I saw any query about intel secret ops. OK... I still don't know what questions or query you asked about "intel secret ops." As for my response that I didn't know what you were talking about, not one time, in all my USAF career was what I did called "intel secret ops." Its a phrase you made up, so far as I know. You seem to "make up" quite a lot of stuff. Now, just what was it you wanted to know concerning what YOU call "intel secret ops"? Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> In a message dated 1/14/99 9:03:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >Do not steal
>
> How about stealing a humans' sovereignity>
That's a "made up" crime and a "made up" sin... something you came up with on your
own, apparently... The bible quite clearly, in many passages, indicates that
capturing a person from another country is one of the means of obtaining
slaves and it does not condemn the act as evil or sinful.
The origin of the term "slave" is traced to the German sklave, meaning a captive
of the Slavonic race who had been forced into servitude (compare Slav)
Procuring of slaves: There are eight previously-listed methods, and now (9)
Capture in war.-- Thousands of men, women and children were taken in war as
captives and reduced, sometimes, to most menial slavery. Such slavery, however,
was more humane than wholesale butchery according to the customs of earlier times
. The two principal sources of slave supply were poverty in peace
and plunder in war.
Read particularly Numbers 31:25 - 29.
.Num 31:25-30
25 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers' {households} of the
congregation, take a count of the booty that was captured, both of man and of
animal;
27 and divide the booty between the warriors who went out to battle and all the
congregation.
28 "And levy a tax for the LORD from the men of war who went out to battle, one in
five hundred of the persons and of the cattle and of the donkeys and of the sheep;
29 take it from their half and give it to Eleazar the priest, as an offering to
the LORD.
30 "And from the sons of Israel's half, you shall take one drawn out of every
fifty of the persons, of the cattle, of the donkeys and of the sheep, from all the
animals, and give them to the Levites who keep charge of the tabernacle of the
LORD."
(NAS)
Hawk
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
Archives Available at:
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http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> >do not commit murder
>
> Well, I've got a busy day, but a quick question.
>
> do yoy belive in capital punishment?,
Yes I do. In case you are unaware, the Bible (as does the law of most states)
distinguishes murder from capital punishment, justifiable homocide, inadvertant
homocide, etc. as well as between various kinds of "murder," such as 1st Degree,
2nd Degree, etc.
> What about murdering during wartime?
Again, the Bible has many many passages on how nations and individuals should
conduct themselves in war. My understanding is that combatants are expected to do
each other in... but, when an enemy surrenders himself, or is overwhelmed and at
your mercy, you should "show mercy"... I have a bit of a problem with the way the
USA conducts itself... For instance, I see no difference, except for the
magnitude, in Lt Calley killing 120 civilians with a rifle, and a govm't decision
to fire-bomb Dresden, or Tokyo, or to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
By the way, I looked up the bible passage that supports the position that slavery
is not evil, but never-the-less, if a person can be free, it is a preferable
status.
1 Cor 7:19-21
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but {what matters is}
the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let each man remain in that condition in which he was called.
21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also
to become free, rather do that.
(NAS)
Now, my position has been clearly stated a number of times, that slavery is not
declared "evil" or "sinful" in the Bible.. I have also stated that I would NOT
want to be a slave... I think verse 21, above, supports that position. Thus,
adhering to that position does not qualify me for the vaunted title of "Hypocrite"
...
any more questions?
Hawk
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Howdy Hypocrite, Good morning... Having a nice day? > Whatsa matter, ain't got time to reply to my queries? I haven't seen any Is it something you sent today? > So, pray tell, what are the "proper hermaneutical procedures"? Are they > consistent? "Hermaneutics" is the art or science of "interpretation" primarily of written documents, and is usually applied to biblical interpretation. However, the "rules" are common in literature and historical/archealogical fields, and are not restricted to bible study. Check this site: http://www.greatnorthern.net/~ken/herm.html There are books on the subject, and quite a few "hits" can be found using the "Hotbot" search engine. Here are some general principles: Hermaneutics- Rules for Correct Biblical interpretation 1. TAKE THE WORDS IN THEIR USUAL AND ORDINARY SENSE. A. as the people to whom they were written would have understood B. NOT necessarily literal C. CAREFULLY note the response of the hearers ( do they understand or not ) [ only go as far as you need to in the rules ] 2. TAKE THE WORDS IN THE SENSE THAT THE PHRASE INDICATES (short context) How is the phrase using this word? [in the Original language] ( verb, noun, etc.) - "faith" could mean 'the act of believing' or 'the elements of believe'(as in statement of faith) or 'the whole religion itself' (as in the Christian faith). ex.- an (anarthrous noun); nn (noun); repro (relative pronoun) 3. TAKE THE WORDS IN CONTEXT ( long context ) this is sometimes referred to as ' reading around the text' ( several verses before and after the target text ) 4. CONSIDER THE OBJECT OR DESIGN OF THE PASSAGE A. General purpose of the writer ( stated or un-stated ) B. Specific purpose of the writer ( stated or un-stated ) 5. CONSULT PARALLEL PASSAGES (P.P.) - direct quotes (of this or others) A. is it a parallel? B. is it an inexact parallel? 6. RECOGNIZE PARALLEL EXCLUSIONS A. note any absence of your target text in any other related passages B. note any absence of your target text in any parallel passages > Hypocrite Hawk sez: > > "But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for > the Hebrews to be held in bondage." > > So let, us review, unless Hypocrite Hawk, can determine through "proper > hermaneutical procedures" if the Bible says an action is 'evil' or 'wrong'. The above is somewhat muddled, but presumably, anyone following the principles of hermaneutics should be able to arrive at a reasonably accurate understanding of written documents... Otherwise, why do automobiles come with "Owner's Manuals?" On the other hand, it could be that the document's author was unable to clearly state what he was trying to say, or that his ideas were inconsistent, and in such cases, it is more difficult, or sometimes impossible to determine the meaning -- For instance, "How to program your VCR" written by some Korean guy who is unfamiliar with English... In which case, you would probably have to resort to the original language (the reason for having study tools such as "Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words.") > Do you have a list of "evil" or "wrong", oh, old, wise one? Certainly... however I would not call it an "exhaustive list." Some examples are: Do not steal, do not commit murder, do not commit adultary, etc. > I am not offended by Biblical texts, but by hypocrites that abuse them. I feel the same way about it. I do not approve of hypocrisy. > Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops? Cat got > your tongue? I don't think I saw any query about intel secret ops. But even if I had, I don't know anything at all about the subject of intel secret ops, and don't even know what it means. > What a . . . chauvanistic goober. Well, maybe so... I may be one of those, since I don't even know what it is. I think I am chauvanistic about some issues As for being a goober, I think that is slang (or African) for "peanut," and I am fairly certain that I am not of that species. However, I do know what a hypocrite is, and I do not think I am one of those. I have asked you numerous times to provide evidence of my hypocrisy, and you have steadfastly refused to do so. I have decided that you have no such evidence, based on your reluctance or inability to produce it. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and &
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
-Caveat Lector-
Alamaine Ratliff wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> Okay, I'll bite. Biblical documentation (courtesy NIV) at
>
> Matt 6 (esp 6:5) {long, I won't reproduce -- especially because of the
> written word}
Don't see any connection to slavery.
> John 8:31ff: "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold
> to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth,
> and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's
> descendants and have never been slaves on anyone. How can you say we shall
> be set free?"
Apparently these fellows had never been slaves, and said so.. They also apparently
"missed the point," that Jesus wasn't talking about literal/physical slavery..
which you also seem to have missed.
> Acts 7:6ff: "G*d spoke to him {Abraham} in this way: 'Your descendants
> will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and
> mistreated four hundred years. But I will punish the nation they serve as
> slaves,' G*d said, 'and afterward they will come out of that country and
> worship me in this place.' Then he gave Abraham the convenant of
> circumcision. And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him
> eight days after his birth. Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and
> Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs."
>
> I stumbled onto the above after looking through my Strong's Exhaustive
> Concordance of the Bible. There's not a bunch on "slave" or "slavery" but
> more on "bondage" which translates back to "slavery" in the NIV. The
> Matthew part was what I originally intended to offer but the rest just came
> along.
But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for the
Hebrews to be held in bondage. It merely said that they WOULD be, and that Egypt
WOULD be punished, which it was... But the punishment was not because the Hebrews
were slaves there, rather because Pharoah did not release them when God told him
to... It was his (1) unreasonable harshness to the Hebrew slaves, and (2) his
refusal to let them go when directed -- Read it in context and this becomes
clear. There was a time (read the part about Joseph) when God BLESSED Egypt
because of Pharaoh's relationship (master over slave) with Joseph.
> I really lean more toward Celtic Buddhism so these forays into Xtian
> theological texts is rather illuminating.
That's good... Since some of these folks are offended by biblical texts, I would
be very glad to discuss the above passages, or any others, with you... Could be my
"take" on them is 100% wrong... but maybe I am not wrong at all. You be the
judge, after having an opportunity to study the passages using proper
hermaneutical procedures. In looking through your concordance, don't look for
"slave" but rather "servant" which IS a slave unless it says "hired" servant.
Hawk
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] New World Order
-Caveat Lector- > -Caveat Lector- > > > Subject: New World Order > From: "Muad'ib" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Tue, Jan 12, 1999 8:12 PM > Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I am researching for some time now the New World Order that presidents all > over the world have talked about all this past century , i am interested to > share views with people that possess information about it , i am not > interested in theorys , that i can find for myself , i am interested in > factual information about this subject in order to form enough evidence on > the structure that supports the future implementation of this World > Government and if possible expose it. The idea of a "New World Order" has been around for quite a while... In fact, R.L. Dabney wrote of it in 1865, in his book "The Life and Campaigns of Lt. Gen. T.J. Jackson" following is an exerpt from that book: Excerpt from R.L. Dabney's The Life and Campaigns of Lt. Gen. T.J. Jackson Page 158 History will some day place the position of these Confederate States, in this high argument, in the clearest light of her glory. The cause they undertook to defend was that of regulated, Constitutional liberty, and of fidelity to law and covenants, against the licentious violence of physical power. The assumptions they resisted were precisely those of that radical democracy, which deluged Europe with blood at the close of the eighteenth century, and which shook its thrones again in the convulsions of 1848; the agrarianism which, under the name of equality, would subject all the rights of individuals to the will of the many, and acknowledge no law nor ethics, save the lust of that mob which happens to be the larger. This power, which the old States of Europe expended such rivers of treasure and blood to curb, at the beginning of the century, had transferred its immediate designs across the Atlantic, was consolidating itself anew in the Northern States of America, with a wealth, an organization, an audacity, an extent, to which it never aspired in the lands of its birth, and was preparing to make the United States, after crushing all law there under its brute will, the fulcrum whence they should extend their lever to upheave every legitimate throne in the Old world:'Tither, by emigration, flowed the radicalism, discontent, crime, and poverty of Europe, until the people of the Northern States became, like the rabble of Imperial Rome, the colluvies gentium. The miseries and Vices of their early homes had alike taught them to mistake license for liberty, and they were incapable of comprehending, much more of loving. the enlightened structure of English or Virginian freedom. The first step in their vast designs was to overwhelm the conservative States of the South. This done, they boasted that they would proceed, first, to engross the whole of the American Continent, and then to emancipate Ireland, to turn Great Britain into a democracy, to enthrone Red Republicanism in France, and to give the crowns of Germany to the Pantheistic humanitarians of that race, who deify self as the supreme end and selfish desire, as the authoritative expression of the Divine Will. This, in truth, was the monster whose terrific pathway among the nations, the Confederate States undertook to obstruct, in behalf not only of their own children, but all the children of men. To fight this battle, eleven millions, of whom four millions were the poor Africans, lately feeble savages, prepared to meet twenty millions. The gigantic adversary was not impeded by distance, but lay everywhere alongside his proposed victim, ready to grasp him with his long arms. He held prepared a veteran army of twenty thousand men, a navy, and vast arsenals and armories ; while the Confederate States had everything to create. He had the administration of all the departments of a government; he had revenues, a treasury recruited perpetually with the gold of the modern Ophir, and huge accumulations of financial wealth: they had none. In his favor was a great commercial marine, second to none in the world, and manufactories teeming with productive labor fostered by the previous oppression and taxation of the South; while she had agricultural communities, possessing only the rudiments of commerce and of the arts. And to sustain these elements of Northern power, there was the well-known pertinacity of the Yankee character, infuriated now by a sectional hatred all the more incredible because unprovoked, and by a fanaticism set on fire of hell. ^ Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with ma
Re: [CTRL] William: Larry Flynt on C-SPAN tonight.
-Caveat Lector- E Mael wrote: > let's have a brawl on the floors of congress. maybe we could get the > National Championship Wrestling Federation to referree the the event. we > could put the whole thing on pay per view an charge fitty-nine bucks just > to see um. we could get russia to provide the vodka and the drug cartels > could provide the cocaine and the national pageantry association could > provide the broads. alan king could produce it. > > think of the possibilities I was beginning to think you were simply a thoroughbred idiot... But now I might have to change my mind... You've come up with really good idea! When I was in VietNam, there was a little dittie going around... something like, "Lets take all the VietNamese that we KNOW are on our side, put them on ships in the Gulf of Tonkin, and kill everyone else... Then sink the ships." Is something like that, regarding some other folks, sort of what you have in mind? hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fwd: The Price We Pay: The 10 Worst Corporations of 1998
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Subject: The Price We Pay: The 10 Worst Corporations of 1998 > Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:47:30 -0500 > From: Robert Weissman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Multiple recipients of list CORP-FOCUS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > What did we learn in 1998? Speaking of the clammoring for "documentation" and "citations" and "URL's" for everything contrary to what the brain-dead liberals believe where is the documentation for all of this? Hawk > > > Microsoft Chairman and CEO Bill Gates' net wealth -- $51 billion -- is > greater than the combined net worth of the poorest 40 percent of Americans > (106 million people). > > Hundreds of hospitals are "dumping" patients who can't afford to pay. > > The feds are criminally prosecuting big tobacco companies for smuggling > cigarettes into Canada. (Never mind addicting young kids to smoke and thus > condemning them to a certain, albeit, slow, death -- can't criminally > prosecute them for that.) > > There's a bull market in stock fraud. > > Prescription drugs may cause 100,000 deaths a year. > > Two Fox-TV reporters in Florida are fired for trying to report on adverse > health effects associated with genetically engineered foods. > > The U.S. Department of Agriculture proposes that genetically engineered > foods be labelled "organic." > > Coal companies continue to cheat on air quality tests as hundreds of coal > miners continue to die each year from black lung disease. > > The North American Securities Administrators Association estimates that > Americans lose about $1 million a hour to securities fraud. > > Robert Reich says that megamergers threaten democracy. Corporate crime > explodes, but the academic study of corporate crime vanishes. > > Three hundred trade unionists around the world were killed in 1997 for > defending their rights. > > Corporate firms lobbying to cripple the Superfund law outnumber > environmental groups seeking to defend it by 30 to one. > > Down on Nike? Chinese political prisoners allegedly make Adidas products. > > Blue Cross Blue Shield Illinois is a corporate criminal. Chemical > companies are testing pesticides on human beings. > > Senator Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, questions whether the Pentagon's > financial controls have suffered a "complete and utter breakdown." > > Environmental crimes prosecution are down sharply under Clinton/Gore. > Bush/Quayle had a better record. > > Bell Atlantic buys Maurice Sendak's Where the Wild Things Are > illustrations to sell telephone products. > > Companies that have workers die on the job continue to be met with fines. > Criminal prosecutions still rare. > > This is the price we pay for living in Corporate America. Wealth > disparity, megamergers and the resulting consolidation of corporate power, > commercialism run amok, rampant corporate crime, death without justice, > pollution, cancer and an unrelenting attack on democracy. > > The 1998 market run-up might make plugged-in America feel good about > itself, but big business is eating out the democratic foundation of the > country, and when the empty shell crumbles, what kind of chaos might we > anticipate? > > If you have justice on your mind, herewith for the tenth consecutive year > is Multinational Monitor's effort to pinpoint those responsible. It is, > admittedly, a short list -- the Ten Worst Corporations of 1998. But it is > a representative list, and as the damage becomes more apparent, as the > outrage at, and contempt for, our fearless leaders grows, surely the list, > too, will grow. > > The Ten Worst Corporations of 1998 are: > > * Chevron, for continuing to do business with a brutal dictatorship in > Nigeria and for alleged complicity in the killing of civilian protesters. > > * Coca-Cola, for hooking America's kids on sugar and soda water. Today, > teenage boys and girls drink twice as much soda pop as milk, whereas 20 > years ago they drank nearly twice as much milk as soda. > > * General Motors, for becoming an integral part of the Nazi war machine, > and then years later, when documented proof emerges, denying it. > > * Loral and its chief executive Bernard Schwartz, for dumping $2.2 million > into Clinton/Gore and Democratic Party coffers. The Clinton administration > responded by approving a human rights waiver to clear the way for > technology transfers to China. > > * Mobil, for supporting the Indonesian military in crushing an indigenous > uprising in Aceh province and allegedly allowing the military
Re: [CTRL] Greatest Generation of Collectivist Fools!
-Caveat Lector- Lloyd Miller wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Just listening to Tom Brokaw on MSNBC re: his book, The Greatest Generation. > > What crap! The World War II generation: traumatized and buffaloed by the > depression in Roosevelt's fascist New Deal and then tricked by the simple > minded Pearl Harbor strategem into the useless slaughter of WWII quickly > forgetting the "Merchants of Death" lessons of WWI! Dispatching Nazi and > Japanese totalitarianism and paving the way for Soviet and Red Chinese > totalitarianism. > > A worthless, spineless herd of pathetic ruling class pawns, for sure! Hey I like what you say tell us more! Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > In a message dated 1/11/99 6:03:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > > Explanation: The poorest 40 percent of Americans did not contribute as > much to the lifestyle and productivity of American individuals as did Bill > Gates. > > Unlike the poorest 40%, everyone who bought goods from Microsoft did so as a > voluntary decision, whereas many of the poorest 40% were recipients of funds > extorted by threat of violence from the other 60%. > > Hawk, you seem to live in a dark pit. On the contrary, my dear man, I live in the bright sunshine of Texas! I even ocassionally venture outside the borders of this magnificent republic. > Your response is so appalling that i first passed it by because in the face of > such unreality, there doesn't seem to be much to say. Why, Son, that's because there really ISN'T much to say against it, which is all you have any interest in... So, I suppose you're going to bless us with more blather > But i will say this. See? I knew it! > Suppose that you are perfectly right. I am. > Gates wealth relative to the 40% is solely due to his superior productivity so > that God Almighty and all decent right thinking citizens see the justice. I might have something to do with saving some back for a "rainy day," hiding some from the greedy and voracious govm't tax collectors, prospering due to the adage, "Help enough people get what they want, and you can have anything you want," and other factors that such as thrift and generosity.. I suspect there is more to it than "pure productivity." > Suppose Gates were to increase his productivity even more in ratio to his > fellows so that his wealth now exceeds 80% of the population. Would such a > wealth distribution be wise even for Mr. Gates? Why not? The fact that he has more doesn't mean that I have less If I didn't have two automobiles, would one suddenly appear in front of some African's hut? As a matter of fact, my own wealth has been INCREASING during the period of time that Bre'r Gates' has been increasing... Ain't that sort of wierd in your contorted economic theory? If there is some causal relationship, I hope Gates does continue to increase his wealth. You haven't come to realize that "wet streets don't cause rain." > If so, do you suppose that there might be some point at which society becomes so > unstable that the game is over? Don't wish too hard for it... You seem to always get around to some veiled "people's revolution" BS... You're a lot like NUREV, both of you rave on with your Walter Middy delusions of revolutionary grandeur, but I suspect that neither of you would have any idea of what to do if you were suddenly plopped into the middle of revolution... like my Mercedes suddenly materializing in front of the African's hut. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Iraqiana: 01-12
-Caveat Lector- Alamaine Ratliff wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Saddam and company need to get focussed ... Their primary focus is probably dodging missiles that we have no business lobbing in their direction... Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Republican Hate Rhetoric Turns Deadly
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > In a message dated 1/12/99 9:27:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > > MJ: > > While the conclusion may or may NOT be true [cause], what exactly > > makes the muder of an individual within a 'protected' group WORSE > > than the murder of some other individual? > > Yes, murder is murder and the US murder statistics stand out like a malignant > cancer. The extreme right wing hate mongers have so many reason and excuses > for violence that it is astounding. There is primarily ONE reason for the burden of violence we experience... When a crime is committed, it is not followed SWIFTLY by CERTAIN (and appropriate) punishment. Over 95% of FELONIES in the U.S. are "unsolved," whereas in Japan, over 95% of felonies result in jail time. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > An apologist for slavery and . . . You may think what you want, but do you > realize your rationalzations are inhumane. No I don't... As a matter of fact, if you could read (and understand what you read), I have repeatedly said that I do not advocate the enslavement of anyone. I do not personally approve of slavery. Seems you would finally get that through your head. > Your contention that owning people, because of interpretations of scripture, is > a valid human endeavour is ill-founded. A "valid endeaver?" Of course its a "valid endeavor." Murder is a "valid endeavor," if it accomplishes the perpetrator's goal. That doesn't make it a "desirable" activity in which to engage one's self. > Slavery is wrong, is known by the fact of the actions of slavery, not by any > vaunted scribblings. Is it "wrong" because YOU say its wrong? Or because an amendment to the Constitution says its wrong? What makes an action "wrong?" Your bemuddled "logic" -- if such it could be called -- is "X (and action) is wrong because the action of X is wrong." I fear you'll have to improve before your "argument" is convincing to anyone who can string a group of words together and form a logical statement. > Lord, have mercy, the sufferrings from arrogannce saited by piety. Funny... I was just thinking the same thing... > A side-kick , someone to kick around. No... Someone to "kick around with." A "pard," a "buddy." Or if you prefer the definition from the American Heritage Dictionary: side·kick (sºdk¹k) n. Slang. A close companion or comrade. Hardly, "someone to kick around." Your own arrogance and accusatory manner is amazing! > Embarrased? Shucks, wonder what your side-kick had to endure. Probably embarassment... Frustration... Anger... Resentment.. At least that's what I would have felt.. However, I was no more at fault in that situation than YOU were (assuming you were even alive at the time, and considering the rather juvenile nature of your posts, I have my doubts). > The social rules were racist. Of course they were Do you think anyone is denying that? Would you say that there are NO racist tendencies in yourself? Or that racism is to this day as rampant or more than ever before? Or that minorities are not themselves racists? > Valid in the eyes of Jesus aka The Christ? Why should it matter? You put no stock in the Bible anyway, and I have been accused of "religious pandering." But then, I have noted a "slight" double standard from you in other issues too. If you wish to 'ban' the use of the bible in determining whether something is "right" or "wrong," then don't use it in YOUR arguments. If you do want to use it, you're in a heap o' trouble, boy and I look forward to the debate. > Like I said, I was raised in the South, home of gentlemen/women and racism > fostered by an illegal social and political system. Again... You seem to confuse "what you believe" with what is actually true. I think, if you are speaking of some time prior to the 1960's, racism (or discrimination based on race) was LEGAL. If not, cite your references. Documentation is important. > The seperate facilities has stopped, why? Because it was wrong. No... because it was declared illegal, and some pretty hefty fines and penalties might be slapped on those who insisted on continuing the practice. > Ladies couldn't even vote untill this century. I'm not so sure its a good idea now... But that's another topic altogether. > Slavery comes in many forms. We shall overcome. Oh Are YOU a slave? If so, I guess you DO have a unique perspective from which to speak.. Pardon me... I didn't realize I was talking to one with personal experience in that "peculiar institution." > You write me personally and complain about this post and this person and what > are the rules. I did that rather than "clutter up" the list... I thought it was a considerate thing to do. If you'd rather, I can point out the obvious infractions of others (regarding the so-called "rules") in the clear. > Yeah, there are rules and rule makers and rulers and yardsticks and junk-yard > dogs. I agree I have personally witnessed actual critters such as you mention... However, I don't see the connection with the discussion at hand. Its like saying "Yeah, there is earth, wind, fire, and water." Not a particularly enlightened argument. > I ain'y yo mamma and if ya want a cop call 911. Is that somewhere in the rules? Maybe I have a truncated list... > Actions begat reactions and so
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
eliminate "unknown risks." > * Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, for pleading guilty to felony crimes for dumping > oil in the Atlantic Ocean and then lying to the Coast Guard about it. Application: Stop taking cruises... Who'd trust anyone who likes to dump thousands of dollars worth of oil into the ocean? > * Wal-Mart, for crushing small town America, for paying low, low wages (a huge > percentage of Wal-Mart workers are eligible for food stamps), for using Asian > child labor and for homogenizing the population; and last, but not least, Application: Don't buy from Wal-Mart, although I haven't heard of any small town in America having been crushed by a Wal-Mart store... Seems like everyone but the over-priced and under-stocked "mom and pop" store owners are exceedingly glad to have the opportunity to buy reasonably priced items from a wide selection. It was the customers who abandoned mom and pop, and not Wal-Mart, who forced them to go out of business. > As the millennium approaches, keep your eyes open for nasty corporate > predators in your neck of the woods. Keep a list. Check it twice. Then > send along your nominations for the Ten Worst Corporations of 1999. Here are mine (although not corporations) The Department of State: For sticking their noses into every other countries' business, and making me pay for it. The Department of Justice: For making everything that isn't mandatory, illegal. The Federal Aviation Agency (or whatever its called now): For having more employees than there ARE licensed pilots in the U.S. The FBI/DEA: For maintaining the high profit returns on drugs, thus inducing all kinds of folks into the business. The Department of Agriculture: For paying people NOT to grow crops. The Department of Labor: For making it increasingly difficult to hire anyone at a price that might produce a profit on their work. Heck, you get the general idea.. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation
h Raymond (my co-worker). My family was in the theatre business, and at that time blacks were required to sit in the balcony... there were reasons for that, too, which I will tell you about by private email if you desire... Just don't want to get into a ruckus on the list. I'm glad things are no longer that way, and I am certain that the CR laws pushed the changes ahead. But, when laws grant privaleges to persons on the basis of their race, they are wrong... You seem to agree with that, IF the laws discriminate AGAINST minorities. Well, sir, I am consistent enough to believe that they are indeed wrong, even if the discriminate IN FAVOR OF minorities. My stance is more easily supported... Racial discrimination enforced by the law is wrong. Let's don't muddy the waters by saying, "except blah blah blah." Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector-
"L. Shipton" wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> Now as far as Slaves and Blacks we have had this here before too. Look up
> the history of the KKK. Started at a University and continued as a way to
> keep businesses from bringing in Blacks as strike breakers. If you find
> more please list the book or URL.
Are you saying that the KKK "started at a university?" You have blasted me for
failure to document statements... I'd really like to see your documentation that
the KKK started at a university. Same for your contention that it "continued as a
way to keep businesses from bringing in blacks as strike breakers."
Here, for you enlightenment and entertainment, is where and when the KKK was
organized:
On December 24, 1865, at Pulaski, Tennessee, in a small brick building housing the
law offices of Judge Thomas Jones, six young veterans of the Confederate Army
met. The last I heard, the office is still there, and marked with a plaque.
While discussing "old army times," one of them said, "Lets start a club of some
kind," and they talked about what it would be called, what activities they would
do, and so forth. They didn't conclude anything that night, but had an
organizational meeting a few days later.. Attending were Capt. John Kennedy ("B"
not "F"), Frank McCord, Calvin Jones, John Lester, Richard Reed, and James Crow.
This information has been available for many years, and I've seen it in several
books, including the biography, "Nathan Bedford Forrest" by Jack Hurst.
Now, I am becoming a bit short of tolerance for people who accuse me of things
which are not true, while their condemnation should rightfully fall upon their own
shoulders... In the future, either document what you say, or stop insisting that
others do what you fail to do yourself.
Hawk
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- "L. Shipton" wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Now as far as Slaves and Blacks we have had this here before too. [snip] Hawk > does have a interesting mind set but his posts have shown him to be a lazy > researcher, What is this opinion based on? I dare say that I have a library of books on the subject, as well as reams of files, equal to or better than 95% of the people who have criticized me. > would be curious how he would summarized some of these books or URLs. But for > him to just talk about his history professor, Speaking of lazy research! I have not said a single word about my history professor.. What is this, that people such as you say that I have gone "on and on" about things I never even mentioned one time? > the propaganda he learned in school I have not based anything I have said on anything I "learned in school," propaganda or otherwise. I've been out of school for 40 years, and don't recall anything specifically being taught about these topics, other than the generalization that the Civil War was fought to free the slaves, and I certainly haven't said anything of the sort like that. > and to now give us a book or something so that we can critic that propaganda as > well is boring. It might be boring to a lazy researcher such as one who challenges evidence without refuting it (that's you). In response to a charge that what I was saying was nothing more than personal opinion and racist myth, I provided the names of two books that contain a great deal of documentation such as court cases, the law, U.S. census data, etc etc ... Your response is... "he gave us a book or something.." What did you expect as documentation, other than a document (or something)? > Now think of this list as a English paper that you have to turn in and that > (at least some of) your posts are required to have citations, documentation, > or URLs that allow us to make our own opinions. Or maybe "a book or something" One of which was written by a Pulitzer Prize-winning economist, no less. > We are either bored, curious, nosy, making a living writing - but all of us > believe that we have brains that allow us to study ourselves. Maybe you should study something besides yourself... Might find something interesting. > This list is "Food For Thought" research so again Substancenot soapboxing! . Ahem... may I have the soapbox for just a moment? I do not find attacks such as "you are an idiot" and "you are lying" and "you are merely repeating your history professor" as "research and substance." Then again, we disagree on other issues too. > Do not treat me as if I can not read or research or as if you are afraid that I > might find out something different. I believe you just (above) accused me of that very same thing... Can we chalk that up to poor memory, or is it more likely a "double standard"?? > So put up (some citations or something sometimes) or PLEASE shut up and this > goes to some others (that have been using this as a forum for their PRIVATE > opinions from PRIVATE research as well) as well. Is this your way of saying "Goodbye?" Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Slave Documentation
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > There are two rather interesting photographs related to the CSA prison camp > in Tyler, Texas (Camp Ford). One shows a group of prisoners photographed upon > their departure from prison.. They were all dressed rather nattily, with frock > coats, ties, "plantation" hats, etc. In fact, they "could have been dressed > for the > ball. > > " > > Shame on you, Hawk. Have you never heard of Potemkin Village? Why "shame on me"? The photos are available for anyone to see. And, no, I have not heard of Potemkin Village, at least I have no recollection of it. Does it have some bearing on prisoners at Camp Ford, Texas? > I think that the distance between us on how the slaves lived and were treated > is due to two things. > > The living conditions and psychological environment of the slaves varied > enormously between regions and plantations. No doubt there was quite a lot of variation.. The same is true of family life, churches, local politics, etc. That is why "history by anecdote" is limited in its usefulness to determine "general patterns." > I place greater credence in the slaves themselves as to what their lives were > like. "Greater credence" compared with what? You have to remember that the "Slave Narratives" were recorded in the mid-1930's (or thereabouts). That was about 70 years after the Civil War ended. Any "first-hand" recollections of life as a slave would have been based on child-hood experiences, influenced by "family tradition" passed down by older slaves. When I was a lad, we had several families of "colored folks" who lived and worked on my grandfather's farm. The patriarc of that group was "Uncle" John Hardin. He had been a slave, and we sometimes talked about it because of my interest in "old times" or history -- even as a youth. His personal recollections were that life was pleasant -- but then, most of his days were filled with playing and games. He recalled "rumors of war" and how fearful everyone was when soldiers approached the vicinity (Union or Confederate), and he recalled being excluded from the family council (because he was too young) that was held to decide what the ex-slaves were going to do "now that we're free." He and the other children sneaked under the house and listened to the debate/conversation. They all decided to "stay at home," and their descendants are still in that community. As for placing greater credence on narratives of slaves compared with other sources, we must remember that one of the conditions of slavery was greatly reduced (or maybe even the absence of) self-management or personal liberty. Hardly anyone likes that condition... If we were to conduct "Teen-age Narratives" of almost any era, we would probably find that they considered their lives somewhat more "terrible" than the facts would justify... hence the moaning and groaning about restrictions on their activities, choice of clothing, entertainment, etc. We'd have to consider A LOT of other evidence along with their personal feelings. That does not imply that SOME teenagers have had horrible experiences... it just doesn't support the idea that all have... Again, history by individual anecdote is limited in the whole scope of things. > During the 1950s and 1960s when the South was being weaned from Jim > Crow, it was common for Southern apologists to say things like "Some of my > best friends..." or "We all got along fine here until those outsiders began > stirring things up." One doesn't have to be a "southern apologist" to say those things... It happens to be true. Surely you aren't saying that "some of the best friends" of white people were Negroes? And, as for "getting along fine," it is quite true that there was a lot less turmoil before the 60's... You should NOT infer that I approve of "Jim Crow" laws. I don't. I do not think there should be any laws requiring or prohiting personal relationships based on race. However, I do advocate that people should not be prohibited from being racist "by law." It doesn't work anyway... Racism has not decreased as a result of "civil rights" laws. > [My wife attended a YWCA in the South during this time. When she and a friend > arrived by car to the motel of a small town on their trip, they were frightened > by the paranoia of the folks in the motel lobby. Many questions aimed at > determining whether the travelers were there "to stir up trouble."] And with good reason to be concerned, in my opinion. > The apologists for slavery in t
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: > >> Still voicing OPINION without FACTS, are we? > > > >Read the words, June... I believe them to be factual Documents from the era >indicate > >that such was the situation, or that those who were living at the time believed it >to be > >so > > Documents which you fail to give titles for, let alone quote... This will give you something to start on: "Time On the Cross" by Fogel and Engerman. "A Defense of Virginia and the South" by Dabney. When you finish those, contact me and I'll send you some more. > >> As a matter of FACT, Unitarianism is NOT prevalant here in the > >> Northeast...Unitarianism isn't even Christianity... > > > >I have no idea what is prevalant in the northeast now... > > The same religions that have ALWAYS been prevalent... Probably so... That doesn't alter the fact that Unitarianism has had an influence on them. > >If I were to say that the opinions of Marx influenced the northeast, or > >that Napoleon's tactics influenced the Confederacy, it would not be the > >same as saying the North was Communist and the South was French. OK? > > Which means you admit that your statement is meaninless drivel... Which means that you cannot decifer between fact and fiction...and appear to be incapable of following a line of connected thoughts... I think I'm wasting my time. > >You may be aware of any number of facts of which I am unaware... > > Then why do you continue to post your PERSONAL OPINION and PREJUDICES as if they were > FACTS? Hey, lady? The fact that you may know your mother's name (or maybe even your father's name), and I have not been exposed to that information, has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not what I say is "fact" or "opinion" unless I am commenting on your ancestors. > Jerry praises you for your 'documentation', but yet I've never seen you > provide one iota of documentation...and in fact your private opinions > posted as 'fact' have been roundly refuted by actual facts time and time > again... Well, I just gave you some... And which "private opinions" are you speaking of that have been roundly refuted by actual facts... Don't bother with "all of them," just give me a few. > >If so, say what's on your mind. > > I already have, but I'll repeat it: You are an idiot who posts his personal opinion >and > prejudices as if they were a matter of fact, Well, you're a super nice lady who is just way too sharp for me to pull that off on you, I suppose... But the challenge is still open... You provide one such "personal opinion or prejudice" that has been refuted by fact. When you do, I will confess that you are correct. > without providing a shred of documentation; and when you're obvious fallacies are > pointed out by documented facts, (by the way, it should be "your") I haven't seen the documented facts which point out my fallacies... Again, just summarize two or three for me. > you turn around and start calling those who provide FACTS to counter your prejudices >any > variety of names. Oh? I don't think that is true, although memory may have failed me. Who, or when, specifically, did I call anyone who provided a fact to counter a prejudice any kind of name?? Maybe I owe them an apology... provide the info. > >But if you continue with your beligerant posts, I am going to start > >responding in kind... > > If DOCUMENTED FACTS are considered 'beligerant' by you, so be it... What DOCUMENTED FACT have you provided, that contradicted what I have said? > >and I guarantee you, I am meaner than you are, > > Don't bet on it... Don't have to. > >So how 'bout you just lighten up a little bit, and be respectful... > > Again, if pointing out that you are posting personal opinion and > prejudice as if they were 'facts' is considered 'disrespectful', Well, I sort of think that calling someone a liar, without proof of their lying, or calling someone an "idiot" without documentation of that charge, might be considered disrepectful... It is where I live, anyway. Maybe its different in your neck of the woods. > so be it...I will NOT cease to point out your obvious errors... I don't know of the first one you've pointed out yet. > I personally feel your agenda is to disrupt this list in any manner that > you can, and that you're just looking for an excuse to start up again. You keep challenging me... I assure you that I don't personally care to have di
Re: [CTRL] Slavery (was: Stampeding Bison)
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: > >You might consider that this gal is pulling your leg... > > Of course, such a story HAS to be a lie, doesn't it? No it doesn't but then, maybe it is.. or maybe its exaggerated... But, it could be the truth... What I said was "consider" ... > There is no reason for me to suspect she was lying about this, as she was > NOT the type to 'pull one's leg' over anything, let alone a subject of > this magnitude... However, you do suspect that anyone who reports a different experience is lying, unless I misread your intent. > Her husband, also from the South, related similar experiences... > > As have blacks of an older generation than their's...you see, I HAVE > talked to more than one black person who grew up in the South... That's good... perhaps in another 40 years or so, you will have talked to almost as many as I have, considering I've lived in the South most of my life. > >I'm not saying that she necessarily is lying, > > Sure you are...at least be honest about THAT... Well, I guess your accusation is a bit more than "implied." You, Sir, have no basis upon which to accuse me of lying about anything. If you know I any lie that I have told, produce it, or retract your accusation... > >but I have lived in the South my entire life and have never met anyone associated > >with the KKK. > > I suppose you would like us to believe that the KKK doesn't even exist If you want to believe something that isn't true, you certainly can. I don't believe I encouraged you to do so. You seem to have a little difficulty separating fact from fancy... You are a very imaginitive fellow, it appears. > I suppose all those lynched blacks hung themselves Not very likely... at least no more likely than the ones lynched in New York City and other places outside the South. I've often wondered, and you may be able to inform me, just how many blacks have been lynched? Do you have a state-by-state breakdown on those numbers? Is it something that was quite common in the South, but somehow it just escaped my notice? > >Have you bothered to check the Klan-watch reports of KKK activity... There are more > KKK members in Ohio and Indiana than there are in the entire South, according to the > avowed enemies of the KKK. The northern and mid-western states have FAR MORE KKK > members than the Southern states. > > That's not the point...the point of my statement was that these college- > educated blacks -- who got their education at BLACK colleges, since they > weren't 'allowed' to attend the white state colleges -- How old are these people? I am 61 years old, and attended a state college with black student, in the South. > could not find employment in their field in the South, due to their skin color... so they say There may be another side to that story... I am a mangement consultant with over 500 client companies, most of which are in the south, and I specialize in employment law... From my experience, capable and qualified black applicants are on every manager's "wish list." > they had to come North to gain employment in the field they'd gotten their > degree in... Yeah, OK... I'm glad they obtained gainful employment somewhere. > >> I'm sure blacks were given equal opportunity to plant & clear fields -- > >> for someone else. How many blacks OWNED this property they worked on...? > > > >I'd be interested in knowing those figures too... How many were there, June? > > That is what I'm asking Do your own research. I thought, on the basis of your question, that you had some evidence that blacks were not allowed to own farms, or something. I assure you that any black person with the money to buy a farm would not have a lot of trouble finding a willing seller of such properties. > >How many blacks do you figure owned the northern factories they worked in? > > They at least had the opportunity to be shift supervisors and managers... > or college professors in integrated colleges, managers of integrated > businesses Same here the North is not unique in that. > >> How many blacks were allowed to take over important office and factory > >> jobs, supervisory and managerial positions, when the 'able bodied men' > >> (black men WEREN'T 'able bodied'?) were away at war? > > > >"Allowed to take over" ??? Are those jobs just "allotted" to folks, or do they > >normally have to qualify for them? > > I was using the wording the previous poster had used, in stating that > blacks were 'allow
Re: [CTRL] The natural condition of slavery, was ??
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: > I see what you mean. Perhaps, and i may have been one of those, we should > have used the term "evil." Same difference... In order to say that ANYTHING is "evil" or "sinful" or even "wrong," there has to be some basis for the statement... If something is said to be "wrong," I want to know what the declaration is based on... ie Do you mean its "against the law," or "unconstitutional," or "against our rules," or "not according to Hoyle," or "because my grandmother said so." Just because I don't approve of something, that doesn't make it wrong... > Incidentally, if you will allow me to return to a previous response, you had > some doubt that it was a common thing for massah or the overseer to force > himself on the slave women. You quoted some stats on mulatto children. I > live in an area that resembles a sort of Noah's Ark of mankind and one can > generally tell the Africans from the African-Americans simply by how much > blacker the Africans are. This doesn't prove rape, only the commonplace > nature of sexual intercourse between massah and his slaves. Yep... quite easy to determine "about how much" inter-racial fornication is going on... but no evidence as to what was given in exchange ... love, trust, money, companionship, lack of fear.. > Further insight is gained by considering the relationship between supervisor and > worker in the sweatshops of Southeast Asia which are mostly staffed by young > women/girls You don't learn a thing from that... It would be like saying, "I know what goes on in the offices of Barnes and Noble, because I have seen movies of Nazi concentration camps." You'd have to know something of the restrictions observed by the influence of the society, the church, the family, the community... There are lots of "influences" that have an impact on how people behave. As a management consultant I have clients who are jerks, and I wouldn't advise anyone to work for them... others are saps, and let their employees take undue advantage of them... Your example is too broad to be useful... Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Welcome back, Hawk. Many of us missed hearing your arguments however we > disagreed because your supporting evidence offered something to get one's > teeth into. Thanks for the welcome. > I'm not sure what to say regarding your remarks concerning the scriptures > since, apparently, some are grievously offended by any mention of spiritual or > moral matters - at least they are offended when scriptures are referenced as > opposed to, say, Urantia channeled baloney. I will only point out that we are > directed away from legalism and toward general principles so i am puzzled by > your statement that the principles cannot be applied in the specific. It > seems to me that they could then never be applied. That's an interesting question.. It seems to me that there are any number of "general summaries" or guidelines that "usually" apply... While I am not in agreement with the over-all thesis of "situation ethics," I do that that general principles may be over-ruled by specific guidelines. Let's say that it is a general rule that a soldier should obey his superior. However, there may be specific rules that speak to more carefully defined situations. If a superior officer tells Pvt. Peabody, "Strip that woman's clothing from her body and rape her," then Pvt. Peabody should be responsible enough to say that rape of a civilian by a soldier is prohibited by a specific rule. If the "general rule" is to obey the superior officer, and he superior officer says, toss a grenade into that building... BUT, the soldier knows that non-combatant women or children are hiding in there for safety, Pvt Peabody would be justified in refusing the order, which (under other circumstances) might be perfectly litigitimate. Thus, when a multitude of very specific guidelines are stated in which slave holders and slaves are instructed in the proper manner of conducting themselves in their relationship, and never once even an added footnote that "slavery is, after all, evil," then we cannot apply a general rule of treating people in a manner that we would like to be treated as covering that issue. In 1st John, for instance, there is a statement that "Christians don't sin." However, in the next few sentences, John talks about all kinds of sin that Christians are known to have committed (and are likely to again). It is somewhat along the lines of a father saying, "Son, you are a Smith... and we Smith's don't act that way," when the conversation was initiated precisely because a Smith was acting that way. Another passage comes to mind: "Answer NOT a fool according to his folly, lest you become like him," and in the very next verse, written by the same author, he goes on to say, "ANSWER a food according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own conceit." So, the actor's action may depend on the intended or anticipated result. To make this somewhat topical... Most of us would say that lying is a bad sociological action... and most of us would tell our children that one should not lie. However, in some circumstances lying might be the proper thing to do... after all, what is camoflage, if it isn't an attempt to deceive someone (usually someone bent on killing you)? > You speak of the slave mentality and i know that it lives in many people. > However, IMO the root of it is in oppression. When folks get so frustrated > and despair of being allowed to do, they sometimes sort of give up and go > along with the notion that if something good is going to happen, it must come > from massah (the corporation, government, church, et al). Of course this is > not confined to actual ex-slaves. Right.. having once been a private in the Army, I understand the concept. If one's dedication to self-discipline, hard work, dedication, and honesty aren't likely to be rewarded, it certainly dampens the enthusiasm for such ideals. I have visited several formerly Communist nations... The quality of workmanship is deplorable! Why go to any extra effort, if those efforts won't make any beneficial effect in one's life? I might say the same thing seems to raise its head concerning a large number of government employees. > You ask about what state had the removal of thumbs as punishment for learning > to read. The plantations were in the bush. I don't agree with that as a general statement. There was a highly structured society in the Confederate States. Plantations were not isolated societies. > The law was massah and vice versa. When you read the narratives of the > ex-slaves your eyes are opened. In some sense, you are exactly right... The "law" was generally whatever the master said... But not in any appreciable degree th
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: > >> > >> How was the religion of the South different from that of the North? > > > >The north, and particularly the northeast, was under the strong influence of > >Unitarianism, whereas the South was primarily Calvinistic > > Still voicing OPINION without FACTS, are we? Read the words, June... I believe them to be factual Documents from the era indicate that such was the situation, or that those who were living at the time believed it to be so > As a matter of FACT, Unitarianism is NOT prevalant here in the > Northeast...Unitarianism isn't even Christianity... I have no idea what is prevalant in the northeast now... And I never said that Unitarianism was Christianity... I said that religion in the north was "heavily influenced" by Unitarian thought... If I were to say that the opinions of Marx influenced the northeast, or that Napoleon's tactics influenced the Confederacy, it would not be the same as saying the North was Communist and the South was French. OK? Now, June... I'm attempting to be courteous and respectful in my posts... You seem to be itching for a fight of some kind. I will warn you that if it comes to that, it won't be my first rodeo... You may be aware of any number of facts of which I am unaware... If so, say what's on your mind. But if you continue with your beligerant posts, I am going to start responding in kind... and I guarantee you, I am meaner than you are, and will cease being nice. So how 'bout you just lighten up a little bit, and be respectful... if that is impossible, at least be courteous. It isn't a lot to ask, and things will turn out a lot better for both of us if you will. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Carlene M. Wojahn wrote: > >or even that of 135 years ago, you got to remember the differences in the cultures > between the north and the south, and that culture includes their religion. > > How was the religion of the South different from that of the North? The north, and particularly the northeast, was under the strong influence of Unitarianism, whereas the South was primarily Calvinistic That's the short answer, but the two philosophies are diametrically opposite to each other. > What Roadsend explained is that when people start to use any religious > treatise to support their views, one no longer has 'discussion' but > prosyletizing...since one's religious beliefs all boil down to belief and > faith, not facts. Anyone who expresses "strong opinions" based on what they've learned (rather than pure emotionalism) is expressing a thought based on their "religion," even if it is atheism. In the discourse leading up to the present discussion, someone opined that slavery was a "sin." However, when someone (such as I did) pointed out the *historical fact* that the Southern people did not consider it a "sin" based on their understanding of what is "sinful" as outlined in the Bible, that is NOT prosylitizing, but offering a historical basis for various actions... These *facts* -- like all "facts" -- are evididence to support a thesis, and not advocacy for any religion. Now, I am loathe to get into a "religious debate" on this list, but the bible is set forth primarily as a document (or documents) that claim to relate historical facts and offer some evidence of their claims. Thus, when one reads the Washington Post or the New York times, although the reported "history" may be hours old rather than hundreds of years, the reader who accepts what is said, is doing so "by faith." Those who reject tabloid news are rejecting it because they do not think the evidence supports the "news." Without first-hand knowledge, both views are taken "by faith." So if it is reported that, for instance, that U.S. warplanes bombed Iraq, the reader's expressions of belief or disbelief do not consititute a "religious debate." > I could argue for the establishment of some law based on what Buddha > taught...but if other's do not follow Buddhism, my argument is meaningless, and if I > insist on quoting tenets of Buddhism, I'm then on a soapbox, prosyletizing my > PERSONAL beliefs/faith/superstition, and not DISCUSSING FACTS. However, if you say that the VietNamese Buddist monks (during the 1960's) were involved in a revolution against the Catholic French, and their self-inceneration was a sign of their Buddist beliefs justified suicide as a tactic of revolution, you would not be "on a soapbox, prosyletizing PERSONAL belief" but discussing facts -- as you understood them, not having had the personal opportunity to discuss their purpose nor intent to cook themselves in public -- which would at least imply some stronger motive than a simple adult temper-tantrum. > Now, I COULD discuss aspects of life in a Buddhist country, and compare > how their political system and quality of life compare to, say, a Moslem or > 'Christian' country...that would be discussing FACTS...but if the discussion > degenerates into an argument about which religion is 'correct', then it's OT for this > list... But of course, that is precisely what has taken place in the past few days. At least I haven't advocated that anyone "get saved" by accepting whatever religion that I adhere to... Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Slavery (was: Stampeding Bison)
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Jim Norman wrote: > >I was raised in the old South in Claxton, Georgia 1941-1949 and I can > >tell you from personal experience that the old South I experienced > >respected everyone. There was no racial tension as today. Black people > >wanted to be with their kind and whites wanted the same. > > Bull. That's what you WANT to believe, to justify your racism. Oh... So am I to gather from this that YOU know more of what HE experienced than he does? My experience is pretty close to his, although I wouldn't say there was "no" racial tension. It just wasn't a very big issue with blacks or whites. You can call me a racist if you wish, but before you do, you should check the racial mixture of my family. > Try talking to the BLACKS who lived in the South at that time (as I > have), and see if they were oh so content as you would like to believe... Try? I talked every day with BLACKS who were living in the South -- along with me -- at that time... You might want to consider that personal, first-hand, on-the-scene experience counts for something maybe even more than "having A black friend" -- you have ONE black friend? Only one who grew up in the South... On the other hand, I have MANY black friends who grew up in the South WITH ME. > I have a black friend who grew up down south, having to watch the local > KKK'rs walk by her house -- in full regalia -- going to and from their > meetings...and being made to smile and wave to them...I can tell you, SHE > and her family were NOT content, but knew what they had to do to keep > from being lynched and their house burned down... You might consider that this gal is pulling your leg... and you've fallen for it, hook-line-and-sinker. I'm not saying that she necessarily is lying, but I have lived in the South my entire life and have never met anyone associated with the KKK. I have never met a black person who has encountered anyone I have seen KKK "rallies" on TV, and it is almost comical... There are about six KKK-ers, 600 policemen, 500 "news" reporters, and 50 or 60 hecklers booing the KKK guys. Regarding the anecdotal "evidence" of your black frined... Most of us have heard of black author (cannot think of her last name) who wrote "I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings," and her horrifying tales of KKK rampages in her home town, even directed at her poor terrified family... Well, my wife grew up during the time period of the book, living about 500 yards from those "terrified black folks"... Who, by the way, were middle-class store owners (what passed for a convenience store in those days)... My wife and her sisters went almost daily to that place of business, which was next to the home of the "terrified blacks." > There's a reason they moved up North...because the South didn't provide > them the opportunities in employment the North did, because of their > race... Have you bothered to check the Klan-watch reports of KKK activity... There are more KKK members in Ohio and Indiana than there are in the entire South, according to the avowed enemies of the KKK. The northern and mid-western states have FAR MORE KKK members than the Southern states. Lest you jump to conclusions, I hasten to add that I know that racism exists and has existed in the South (as well as the North), and that I am opposed to what I know of the KKK as it exists in our modern day. But I think black comedian/philosopher Dick Gregory was pretty close to right when he said, "In the South, they don't care how *close* we get, as long as we don't get too rich. In the North, they don't care how rich we get, as long as we don't get too close." > >We worked >together Black and White to plant and clear the crops since most of > the >able bodied men were still at war. > > I'm sure blacks were given equal opportunity to plant & clear fields -- > for someone else. How many blacks OWNED this property they worked on...? I'd be interested in knowing those figures too... How many were there, June? How many blacks do you figure owned the northern factories they worked in? How many owned the Hotels they worked in? Who was keeping them from buying those factories, farms, and hotels? > How many blacks were allowed to take over important office and factory > jobs, supervisory and managerial positions, when the 'able bodied men' > (black men WEREN'T 'able bodied'?) were away at war? "Allowed to take over" ??? Are those jobs just "allotted" to folks, or do they normally have to qualify for them? Oh, that's a rhetorical question... Of course nowadays, they ARE allotted... its called "Affirmative
Re: [CTRL] Iraq inspectors seem guilty of spying
-Caveat Lector- Hilary Thomas wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Alamaine, > > I couldn't remember if it were horizontal drilling or tapping into the > pipeline. In either case, Saddam did make the effort to go through proper > channels. We can only second guess why Bush brushed him off, why he went to > the US (perhaps knowing he wouldn't get assistance??? or it may have been a > genuine request for help). I can't recall if he approached the UN or not. How about the idea that it was nothing more than the same "trick" that was used to encourage Hitler to take more territory, or that South Korea was not "in our sphere of influence," only to use their aggression as an excuse to get into another war??? Why do such a thing, you ask? Well, could be that the NWO folks want to establish "credible" precidents for sending NATO (the only official military force for the NWO at this time) forces to "teach someone a lesson." As I recall, our Secretary of State met with Saddam when he asked for help in a squabble with Kuwait (which was an artificial state previously carved out of Iraq), and told Saddam, "You go ahead and take care of it... We won't interfere." Seems Saddam wasn't politically astute enough to know that when the USA politicians tell you something, you should assume the opposite is true. Thus, he took action, and there was a "ready made excuse" to set a precedent... Remember Bush saying the war was to "Strengthen the New World Order" or that "out of this, a New World Order will emerge"??? Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Rejected posting to CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
-Caveat Lector- > > nurev wrote: > > > This may have come as a shock to you, but there were many people around who knew >what the imperialist > government was doing. And why. It seems that you haven't yet >learned why the > government does what it does and why it must do it all secretly. I'll give you a >hint, it's not because they are democratically > > controlled by us. > > Thank God for that. > > > How many innocent people did you kill even knowing the false pretenses you were >fighting under? > > That would be hard to say... > > > Why should you not be considered a war criminal? This is not a rhetorical question. > > You are free to consider me whatever suits your fancy... > > > Why am I not surprised that you justify slavery on the basis of this superstitious > > nonsense? Your slaver ancestors used it for the same purpose. > > I am not surprised that you feel that way... While my "slaver ancestors" did indeed >believe they were justified, they are all dead. Now they have been "replaced" by >people who STILL advocate > slavery... namely folks such as you... You seem to think it is perfectly fine for me >to be forced to work for the benefit of others. I doubt you are smart enough to see >the connection however. > > > Gee that's too bad. War is heck. I'll bet the slaves just hated to leave your > > wonderful family. > > As a matter of fact, most of them didn't leave... They chose to stay with my >wonderful family... > > > > But slavery was an evil institution. > > > > > I don't know dude...you sound like one confused puppy to me. > > Rational thought is something you are not familiar with... > > > There's no end to the evils perpetrated by people like you in the name of >religion. It's in the NT that Paul tells slaves to obey their masters. The OT is >much more libertarian. Biblical > Israel was not a slave based economy as was Greece and Rome and their cultural >offshoots Christian Europe and Christian America. > > snip> > > You obviously haven't had much exposure to biblical teaching... Since you don't know >what you're talking about, there isn't much point in discussing it with you. > > > Slavery was not eliminated by the war... it merely changed its appearance. > > > > Do you mean to wage slavery? > > No, I mean being forced to give govm't fools over half of what I earn. > > > Whether you wish to or not is irrelevant. You can't because we ( the society in > > which you live ) won't let you own slaves. You'll just have to live with it and > > whine about it. Poor guy. > > I don't recall whining about it... As a matter of fact, if you could read and >understand simple English, you would have noted that I said that I do not wish to own >a slave. > > > Well Hawk, you've convinced me. When I grow up I want to be just like you. > > It would be a considerable improvement... > > Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Fwd: Rejected posting to CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM]
think that the only way people obtain > wealth is by chicanery or extortion... I presume that is your normal way of doing > business, or you would not think that way. I risk making the same mistake that > you have made by surmising that your pay comes primarily from some government > source rather than honest market-place give and take. > > You, and those who think (I use the word loosely) like you do seem to feel that > its OK for you and your pals to take whatever I own (my "stuff") and use it for > your own purposes. I wonder then, if you think it would be "just peachy" if me > and some of my pals showed up at your place, and by threat of violence took > whatever we wanted that you have. If you are truely "democratic" all that would > be necessary is that we "outnumber" you. > > Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Fwd: Rejected posting to CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM]
-Caveat Lector- Hawk wrote: > > > "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > > > > But slavery was an evil institution. > > > > > > That is merely your opinion, and it does not comport with the Bible. You are >welcome to it, and you are > > certainly not alone in that opinion. But I base my criteria on "stronger stuff" >than personal opinion. By > > the way, at one time I would have agreed with you. I was "compelled" to study >slavery in order to support > > my position that it was evil, but my study resulted in forcing me to reject my >initial beliefs concerning > > it. As you may have gathered, I am VERY libertarian in my political philosophy. >As a libertarian, I would > > have to reject slavery, either an an owner or a slave. But as a Christian, I >cannot condemn it. > > > > > > > In his long post there is much which I am in total agreement with. However, the >above is not my view. I > > believe that Hawk would be correct if he were only to use the old testiment as >reference. However, I believe > > that Jesus set a higher standard when he said that we should do unto others as we >would have them do unto > > us. I don't believe the ownership of slaves is compatable with that admonishment. > > You are, of course, welcome to draw any conclusions you wish from a text that says >nothing whatsoever about > the institution of slavery. There are a number of New Testament passages that speak >DIRECTLY to the issue, > and not a single one of them even remotely criticizes the institution of slavery... >In fact, the opposite is > true. Slaves are told to "be good slaves, industrious, honest" etc. Masters are >told to supervise/manage > their slaves without resorting to intimidation and brutality. Oenesimus, a run-away >slave, was told to > return to to his master, and Paul told the master, Philemon, that he would >personally recompense him for > whatever Oenesimus might have stolen or cost him in lost productivity. If slavery >were immoral, and the > biblical writers spoke of the institution many times, they were strangely remiss for >not criticizing Christian > slave-holders. > > > (Though I can understand the problem of those who (like Jefferson) inherited >slaves and did not understand > > what to do about the situation). I don't, however, believe that Jesus would have >called upon his disciples > > to take up the sword against their owners. > > You may speculate all you wish about what Jesus might have said. But an honest >study of the issue of slavery > will not lead to the conclusion that it is immoral. > > Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] [Fwd: Rejected posting to CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM]
The distribution of your message dated Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:54:59 -0600 with subject "Re: Yeah, yeah" has been rejected because you have exceeded the daily per-user message limit for the CTRL list. Other than the list owner, no one is allowed to post more than 7 messages per day. Please resend your message at a later time if you still want it to be posted to the list. Rejected message (129 lines) - Received: from mail2.ballistic.com (mail2.ballistic.com [208.211.146.6]) by listserv.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25052 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:56:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ballistic.com (tpm2-162.ballistic.com [208.211.146.162]) by mail2.ballistic.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07223 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:55:13 -0600 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:54:59 -0600 From: Hawk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Conspiracy Theory Research List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [CTRL] Yeah, yeah References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > > >> >Glad to hear it. Who did you have to step on to do so well for yourself? > >> > >> Or sleep with? ;-) > > > >That one's cute, too.. I married a poor girl... She's rich now, though. > > Avoids answering the question of who you stepped on or slept with to become so > successful in business to become rich white trash... My, my... You are so bereft of manners... I will answer your stupid question directly... I "stepped on" no one, and I have not "slept with" anyone other than my wife... It is amazing to me that people such as you cannot comprehend success without chicanery... I suppose that it reflects your normal behavior. > >> One good thing about being poor...you don't lose sleep at night > >>worrying someone will take your 'stuff'... ;-) > > > >OH? Poor people like to have their "stuff" stolen??? > > No, we don't have 'stuff' to BE stolen! ;-) Bullshit. > (or at least, not anything anyone else would waste their time on)... > > >> You also notice Squawk is so very willing to steal someone ELSE'S > >> resources, while worrying about preserving his own toys... > > > >That is simply a lie... I have never stolen anyone ELSE'S resources... > > But you argue that it is your RIGHT to take as much oil from the ground to feed > your gas-guzzler... No... As a matter of fact, I haven't taken ANY oil from the ground.. Some people who owned oil in the ground extracted it and sold it to some people who made gasoline with it, and they sold it to me... Simple things are very confusing to you, aren't they? Your hypocrisy is amazing. as though you don't enjoy the benefits of plentiful and relatively inexpensive petroleum products... > Just WHERE do you think that oil resides? Unless you're Jethro with your own > 'bubbling crude', that oil you want to extract to your heart's content belongs > to other people... I think it "resides" in the ground... As a matter of fact some of it belongs to me. And I'd like to sell more of it... In the meanwhile, I haven't taken any oil from anyone who didn't have desire to sell it... It is only people such as you who think they have the right to take by force what other people own. > You argue that all the minerals in the Earth should be exploited for your > own use -- do you live on top of a mine? Nope... wish I did, though. > If not, then you are arguing for taking the resources which belong to others, > and wasting them for your own frivolous needs... That's bullshit, too. I don't "take resources" from anyone... That's what facsists and socialists (such as you) do. I purchase what I use from willing sellers What I do with them after that is none of your business... Furthermore, you haven't a clue as to whether I use them for necessities or frivolous purposes. > >> For someone so focused on what a people PRODUCE, I wonder just what > >> SQUAWK produces...other than a lot of hot air... > > > >I make a better-than-average living providing information... > > Then you admit that you in fact do NOT 'produce' a thing... Mostly I help my clients keep a larger portion of what they produce. Their greatest threat to success is folks like you who feel that they have a right to what my clients own. > >I am a consultant. > > A paid producer of hot air... Whatever The people who pay me do s
[CTRL] [Fwd: Rejected posting to CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM]
The distribution of your message dated Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:29:21 -0600 with subject "Re: Stampeding Bison" has been rejected because you have exceeded the daily per-user message limit for the CTRL list. Other than the list owner, no one is allowed to post more than 7 messages per day. Please resend your message at a later time if you still want it to be posted to the list. Rejected message (60 lines) -- Received: from mail2.ballistic.com (mail2.ballistic.com [208.211.146.6]) by listserv.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20170 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:30:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ballistic.com (tpm2-162.ballistic.com [208.211.146.162]) by mail2.ballistic.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05325 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:29:34 -0600 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:29:21 -0600 From: Hawk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Conspiracy Theory Research List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Hawk wrote: > > > > > But slavery was an evil institution. > > > > That is merely your opinion, and it does not comport with the Bible. You are >welcome to it, and you are > certainly not alone in that opinion. But I base my criteria on "stronger stuff" >than personal opinion. By > the way, at one time I would have agreed with you. I was "compelled" to study >slavery in order to support > my position that it was evil, but my study resulted in forcing me to reject my >initial beliefs concerning > it. As you may have gathered, I am VERY libertarian in my political philosophy. As >a libertarian, I would > have to reject slavery, either an an owner or a slave. But as a Christian, I >cannot condemn it. > > > > In his long post there is much which I am in total agreement with. However, the >above is not my view. I > believe that Hawk would be correct if he were only to use the old testiment as >reference. However, I believe > that Jesus set a higher standard when he said that we should do unto others as we >would have them do unto > us. I don't believe the ownership of slaves is compatable with that admonishment. You are, of course, welcome to draw any conclusions you wish from a text that says nothing whatsoever about the institution of slavery. There are a number of New Testament passages that speak DIRECTLY to the issue, and not a single one of them even remotely criticizes the institution of slavery... In fact, the opposite is true. Slaves are told to "be good slaves, industrious, honest" etc. Masters are told to supervise/manage their slaves without resorting to intimidation and brutality. Oenesimus, a run-away slave, was told to return to to his master, and Paul told the master, Philemon, that he would personally recompense him for whatever Oenesimus might have stolen or cost him in lost productivity. If slavery were immoral, and the biblical writers spoke of the institution many times, they were strangely remiss for not criticizing Christian slave-holders. > (Though I can understand the problem of those who (like Jefferson) inherited slaves >and did not understand > what to do about the situation). I don't, however, believe that Jesus would have >called upon his disciples > to take up the sword against their owners. You may speculate all you wish about what Jesus might have said. But an honest study of the issue of slavery will not lead to the conclusion that it is immoral. Hawk
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Agent Smiley wrote: > Granted, such forced charity serves few, in the long run. However, don't you > think the government is 'up to' things that require addressing more than > forced equity? There is no such thing as "forced charity." It is either charity, or its forced... Socialism is to altruism, what slavery is to servanthood. > > One has the right to the opportunity. Such opportunities are killed when a > government works in collusion to create certain negative images of a people or > subculture. Such opportunities are killed when the government uses our tax > dollars to import cocaine, sell it to street gangs to fund a political and > military agenda that, again, serves THEM(AND provides yet another opportunity > to propagate the image of certain peoples as negative). Hey, I'm glad you identified the govm't as the primary destroyer of opportunities. Good going... > >There is a powerful craving in most of us to see ourselves as instruments > in the hands of others and thus free ourselves from the responsibility for acts > which are prompted by our own questionable inclinations and impulses. It may be a powerful craving in you... not me... If you are correct, and you may be, that would explain why there are more "have nots" than there are "haves." > >Both the strong and the weak grasp at this alibi. The latter hide their > malevolence under the virtue of obedience: they acted dishonorably because > >they had to obey orders. The strong, too, claim absolution by proclaiming > themselves the chosen instrument of a higher power -- God, history, fate, nation > or humanity. -- Eric Hoffer Is this Eric Hoffer the Marxist Eric Hoffer? Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Settlers
-Caveat Lector- Agent Smiley wrote: > You DO seem to think the natives were so incapable of 'conceptual thought that > they could not have possibly inspired anyone. I'm capable of framing that thought into words, IF that is what I was trying to say, which it wasn't. The whole idea that started this was mentioning that, in the 1500's, Indians in North America were -- for the most part -- living in tents and thatch huts, while the Northern European culture was building magnificent structures, paved roads, and so forth... > I'll bet you're a big fan of the 'Bell Curve.' Haven't read it... You're wrong again. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Indians
-Caveat Lector- Agent Smiley wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Wealth is not produced but is harnessed from what belongs to everyone. Not so... Wealth is produced by the manipulation of things that are (usually) unsuable in their raw condition, and making something that is beneficial or desirable of it. Of course wealth can be earned by providing services in which nothing is "manufactured" -- such as entertainment, poetry, etc. as long as someone is willing to purchase it from you. "Harnessing" is a strange concept... I suppose (for instance) automobiles are running around loose in nature, belonging to everyone in general and no one in particular, so someone has to corral them up and "harness" them? Strange concepts you have... > Of course, if you have the appropriate firepower, you can claim it is yours and > even force people to agree. That's the nature of communism, socialism, facsism and other forms of coerced altruism... I believe it is your preferrence. There are generally only three methods of obtaining wealth: (1)Produce it -- choice, (2)Plunder it -- your choice, or (3) Patronage -- somebody gives it to you... Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Indians
-Caveat Lector- Agent Smiley wrote: > --- > So what of the fact that they avoided excess? Are you championing waste? If what I am "wasting" belongs to me, I champion my right to do so. What you do with your stuff, or what the Indians did with theirs is none of my concern. > Excess is useful if you wish to have leverage AGAINST someone, else it is > given away. Again, you do whatever you wish with your stuff... Give it away, let it deteriorate, sell it, or shove it... I couldn't care less. > What has this to do with whether or not they were capable of such? Nothing... I responded to it in reference to "What the Europeans found in terms of Indians and their life-style in North America..." I might have been as sarcastic as you (which is an indication of poor character) by asking what the Incas had to do with the original discussion. > You sound like Clinton's press secretary - changing subjects in hopes of > preying on the slow minded. There are few of those here. Apparently you are too slow-minded to make a connection with an obvious illustration... I'll try to make things easier for you to understand in the future. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
generally had skills in agriculture, house-keeping, animal husbandry, and so forth, but many also had "trade skills" ... Some became sharecroppers, others became employees, and some became entrepreneurs. > The federal government just wanted the problem to go away White Americans were > more interested in getting on with their own lives...putting an end to the enmity > against the former rebels... If that is so, "Reconstruction" was a pitiful way to accomplish their goal. One of the prime results of Reconstruction was a deeper animosity between the races than had been evident before or during the war. > What to do with the recently freed slaves was not particularly high on the > political agenda Well, you might also consider that the White Confederate was "not particularly high" on the political agenda" either... They could not even vote, unlike the recently freed Negro, who could and did. > Some of us argue that the government should play a positive role in > helping people...others argue that ANY kind of aid is unconstitutional, > etc... And much of our list discussions on these topics are carried into > abstract terms... First of all, the Govm't CANNOT give anything to anyone that it didn't TAKE FORCIBLY from someone else. The BEST thing the govm't can do to "help people" is to stay out of the way, provide protection against foreign invasion, and run a system of courts that treats everyone the same. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Howard: Baseless accusations
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: > Howard: > > Yes, I believe, based on what I have read and have heard from Libertarian > pundits, that Libertarians subscribe to the same basic philosophies as > Republicans with respect to government. You need to go back to the books, my ill-read friend. > The only possible exception, again, according to my experience and research, is > that Libertarians are more closely aligned with anarchy than fascism. You're closer to the truth in this statement. > Yes, I have labored through Mein Kamph, and I also realize that there is only an > ideological difference at best between Hitler's "form of government" and that > proposed, in-practice, by Republicans and Libertarians. This is especially true > in regard to the need for political scapegoats (e.g., the homeless or welfare > recipients) and scapegoating (e.g., stereotyping). Hardly... Libertarians have no need for scapegoats... It just isn't our responsibility that some people don't have homes and jobs. And apparently it isn't yours, either... Since your form of compassion is to fund your feelings toward "the poor" with someone else's money. > As for threats, I openly invite you to cite just one example of a case where I > directly threatened anybody. I don't think you have the cajunas to directly threaten anyone...not that I advise it. > Were anybody to be guilty of any type of implied threat, it would be exemplified > by Hawk's invitation for me, personally, to engage him in a battle over the > protection of his almighty "stuff." Not so, fella... I didn't invite anyone to engage me in battle over my stuff... My preference is for you to leave my stuff alone.. and me too. I do mention again, that individuals trying to take my "stuff" will have a lot poorer chance of success without the govm't backing them up. There is not threat to you from me, as long as you don't initiate any violence toward me. Keep your greedy paws off my "stuff" and you don't worry about me threatening you. > A quick review of the facts and threads in this regard would be advisable before > you accuse anyone of inciting terrorism! Kinda back-peddling there ain't you? You have made several "veiled threats" about what "the poor" are going to do to us when they "come for our stuff." > Nonetheless, I am aware of the logical and historically supported result of > life in a society where there is such callous disregard for those of either > end of an economic continuum. The result has heretofore been--and will be > again--revolution. This is not a threat, sir, it is a fact. And my opinion of that is, Sir, "Let the games begin!" Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Settlers
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > Just goes to show that white trash is still white trash, irregardless of > their tax bracket... I suppose so... your remarks "go to show" that people who are unable to discuss things intelligently resort to name-calling... And for your information, your opinion of me is of no importance... I don't care what you think of me, not in the very least... If there was any indication that your beliefs were worthy of consideration, your opinion would be examined... but as it is... > 'Semi-poverty' according to whose standard? Mine. > Even the agrarian Indians for the most part enjoyed a much higher standard of living > than most Europeans By who's standard? > and the Inca, Maya, and Toltecs obviously enjoyed substantial wealth... They were not part of the discussion... They lived in Central America, I believe. > Well, if the eastern mound-builders don't fit your arbitrary bill, what > about the cities and the intricate canal networks the Maya and Inca > created... I think its pretty snazzy My hat's off to them. They were better engineers that the ones we were talking about... who's engineering skills seemed limited to making dirt piles. > what about the extensive irrigation system of the HoHoKums in Arizona? I am unaware of the HoHoKums, but if they built canals and irrigation systems, I give them credit for doing it Good for them. > Actually, they probably wouldn't have...there had been nothing like it > before, and the Iroquois system was the only thing they had to go by... If you say so... I'm not in the mood to speculate with you. However, I will point out that those fellows (the FF's) were capable of "Conceptual Thought," and I find it difficult to believe that they were so limited in "Perceptual Thought" that a "confederation" was inconceivable until they saw one. > The initial immigrants in the 1600s either came here to plunder, with > plans to return to England in a few years with a vast bank account...or > they were religious fanatics looking to build their own version/vision of > 'heaven on earth' in a new land... You learned that in school... right? Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Indians
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > Now you're changing your tune...your initial objection was that all > Indians just got by with foraging and gathering, I made the mistake of generalizing.. Hell, I'm sure SOME Indian, somewhere, was probably a real estate agent. > and didn't farm...when that fallacy was pointed out, you now decide that > 'manufacturing' is to be the new standard... Look.. My point was not to criticize the Indians... The point was that they were at best poor entrepreneurs nor producers of excess "whatever they produced" in order to amass any capital. I should have prefaced my remarks with "In general," or "To a large extent," etc etc... It was my mistake. > The Inca, Mayans, and Toltecs seem to have been able to 'manufacture' > some pretty sophisticated objects... I don't think the "founding fathers" of the USA had much contact with them, and did not intend that they be included in the discussion. > >Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy? > > Again, it's a MATTER OF RECORD. Whatever If you want to believe that our system of government was derived from the Iroquois, go ahead... It probably is a harmless enough thing to believe... about the same as the "fact" that Africans invented the airplane and telegraph. > I never said any such thing...I said the INDIANS were farmers and > fishers... No... You were speaking of the Europeans... > the Europeans who first came here in the 1600s were for the most part pretty > middleclass, more merchants than farmers... Middleclass has nothing to do with farming ability.. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Indians
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > << > They were also stupid enough not to realize the value of personal ownership > of wealth, and the productive power of capitalism... After all, that's why they > were > living in tents and barely subsisting... "Hunters and gatherers" don't have any > capital to carry them over in hard times (such as a bad hunting season). > "Tribal mentality" is the same as "slave mentality," which isn't known to > result in creation of wealth and prosperity. >> > > The Native Americans should have been ashamed of themselves not to realize the > commercial value of property. Not necessarily... If they chose to live a bare subsistence lifestyle, why should I care, or why they care what I care? > Of coure they were doing beautifully before the colonists started killing them, True... unless you consider them killing each other off, capturing each other for slaves, and looting each other's meager belongings as something less than desireable. > but they just should have understood that grabbing the most of everything is the > mark of true civilization. Maybe they were smarter than that, but dumb enough not to understand that producing wealth is preferable to plundering and scavaging. > Maybe they already understood the words I saw on an announcement board outside a > local church. "When we die, we leave what we have and take what we are." Yep... They were a bunch of sweethearts all right. Kind and gentle... noble savages all. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Yeah, yeah
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > And, I strongly suspect, a 'little too close' relationship between first > cousins, perhaps even brother and sister, in the ancestral gene pool... > ;-) Brilliant argument... Your intelligence shines in that one. > >Glad to hear it. Who did you have to step on to do so well for yourself? > > Or sleep with? ;-) That one's cute, too.. I married a poor girl... She's rich now, though. > >Poor, poor Squawk! So very worried that someone is after his "stuff." > > One good thing about being poor...you don't lose sleep at night worrying > someone will take your 'stuff'... ;-) OH? Poor people like to have their "stuff" stolen??? Maybe that's why they're poor.. Interesting... hadn't thought of that. > You also notice Squawk is so very willing to steal someone ELSE'S > resources, while worrying about preserving his own toys... That is simply a lie... I have never stolen anyone ELSE'S resources... It's mine that have been stolen.. are, to be more accurate, "Extorted." > For someone so focused on what a people PRODUCE, I wonder just what > SQUAWK produces...other than a lot of hot air... I make a better-than-average living providing information... I am a consultant. Lots of people pay quite handsomly to hear what I think... You are a fortunate recipient of my wisdom at no charge... See how generous I am? Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Stuff
-Caveat Lector- Agent Smiley wrote:-- > Translated: the cops in my area come running for SOME reason, therefore > everyone has some political voice. How far from reason can you get? > -- I never said that everyone, or even "anyone" had a "political voice." Speaking of being far from reason! Pay attention to the words, son. > - > An avoidance of the issue in favor of McCarthyism - an attempt at character > assassination, the default of a faulty metaprogram. > - Just trying to figure out how someone could get so stupid Surely you didn't think up this stuff all by yourself.. > > -- > No one said that, did they? Shall we ignore our own problems in favor of > addressing the problems of others? > -- Yes, please do... Your attempts at a solution are pathetic... Leave well enough alone if that's the best you can do. > --- > There seems to be very little for which you ARE responsible. > -- That's precisely right... Now you're showing some embryonic form of intelligence. I am responsible for me... That's enough. > > How about freedom? Has that ceased to be a choice? > -- > If you value your freedom at any happenstance expense of others, don't be > surprised when they come a knockin'. > -- I rather look forward to it. > > Like many right-wingers, you love a fight more than is good for you, or us. > --- I am not a "right-winger." And I'm not the one advocating a fight... That's your thing. > Don't leave anyone out of your "victim" diatribe. > --- > If there are no victims, then there are no perpetrators, right? So why be > concerned with conspiracies at all? > -- There are potential perps... Keeps life interesting. > --- > The chips WILL fall where they will and your lack of caring will work its way > into the equation when someone gives you some of the same medicine. When the > chips fall, who will consider your immense kindness? > --- I hope no one does... I'm not looking for praise. > -- > You have just reinforced the image of your ilk as being arrogant and > conescending. I would have a tough time TRYING to give myself this bad an > image. You've done a decent job without trying... Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Trick mirrors
-Caveat Lector- Agent Smiley wrote: > > Should we be talking down to you? Impossible from your position... Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > The last American soldiers to fight for "freedom" were > > Confederate soldiers. > > You're just confused. The Confederate soldiers were fighting for slavery. You are not confused, however... merely ignorant... If you choose to remain ignorant, you will be stupid... I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you were educated (or indoctrinated) in the govm't school system.. But if you are out of school now, you should begin your real education and do some independent study and research. > Some understood this and other, like yourself, didn't. The South was > prostrate before evil. Here's what YOU don't understand... The South wanted out of the Union because of people who had similar notions as you expressed. I understand that, because if there were some practical way for me to avoid living in a close association with folks who believe -- notice I didn't say "think" -- as you do, I would go for it too. > Say it with me, "Thank you, God, for Lincoln and thank you for the civil rights > movement of the 1950s and 1960s and thank you, Jesus, that at the price of much > blood, freedom has won the day for the slaves and for the South." You need to have your medication changed You are hallucinating. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Squawk's dissertation on ignorance!!
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: > Even so, given your provincial attitudes, I'll bet there's a home-on-wheels > somewhere in your history. How much is the bet? > How cute: an urban assault vehicle, right? Great Caesar's ghost, you're > becoming your own stereotype! Yep idolized by millions. > Glad to hear it. Who did you have to step on to do so well for yourself? No one at all... I provided things for people who were grateful to receive them, and for which the compensated me. Of course, that's a foreign concept to you. > Man, please! You wouldn't know a rational argument if it crawled up your > rectum and died! That's true... My arguments originate in my brain. You wouldn't be familiar with that. > No, but in typical right-wing fashion, you sure as hell implied it! I didn't imply anything of the sort... You infered what you wanted to believe. > As for the statement you just made about "semi-poverty," do you have even the > slightest clue what life was like for native Americans BEFORE we came over > here and stole the land out from under them? My God, talk about > ignorance!! I have a little bit of a clue, although it is not something I have devoted a lot of time to. I do know this... The Indians didn't own the land, and most of them didn't even have the concept of "ownership" regarding real estate. Its difficult to steal something from someone who doesn't own it. I will admit that the fellows got a raw deal from the govm't... but who doesn't? > Poor, poor Squawk! So very worried that someone is after his "stuff." Keep > crapping on people you don't know, much less understand, and your fears may > well be warranted. I've never crapped on anyone... whether I knew them or not. And although I do resent having my resources extorted from me, I am not all that worried about it. Some people give money to the Mafia as a condition of doing business... others, such as I, give money to the govm't... Neither the govm't nor the Mafia deserve it, and both use the threat of violence to take it... but I figure is more-or-less a condition of doing business. As for the silly threats about what the "pore folks is gonna do to me," I am not in the least intimidated. There's an old military adage: "If I'm in range, THEY are in range." > Kind of hard to say: our "founding fathers" were so much into taking what wasn't > theirs that such a noble concept was not likely to come to fruition in the minds > of bully thieves all by itself. So they had to be taught by the savages they were stealing from? OK... I got it. > Hardly quaint, unless you consider the slaughter of native Americans and > the enslavement of a race of people as being quaint. I hadn't thought to call the native Americans "resources," although many of them considered each other as "resources," and did a commendable job of killing and enslaving each other. Some of the New Englanders tried to make slaves out of some of the Indians, but the Indians kept running off, and proved to be sullen servants... So then the New Englanders decided that slavery was bad... UNTIL, they found that they could exchange rum for Negroes in Africa, and slavery suddenly became "not so bad." But then, you've probably heard that story. > Perhaps we should have "borrowed" the Indian philosophy of frugal use of > resourses as well. Why is that? If it is depleted, find a substitute. I am not concerned about "frugal use of resources." If I own resources, and can sell them, I want to sell to anyone who'll buy them... Its called "doing business." > Then, maybe, we could have had both a clean environment AND a materialistic > technology at the same time. I'm in favor of a clean environment... Excessive development of resources usually isn't the root cause of an unclean environment. Sometimes, but not always. And besides, if you don't own the resources, what business is it of yours whether or not the owner squanders them? > Oh, I wish I had read this jewel first. You would have been a far more enjoyable > target of humiliation. Keep thinking that way, Squawk, and for the pursuit of a > "better life, you'll be living in your own filth! Funny... your theory hasn't seemed to be right yet. Seems as though its the people who expect others to pay their way that usually reside in filth. My neighborhood's pretty clean... We have Mexicans who do the work... (Thought you'd like that.) Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'con
Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: > You don't seem to understand much about human nature. Slavery was not just an > economic issue. It was a way of life and cheap self esteem. It was the dark > pleasure of having absolute power over others. Slavery had deeply corrupted the > South. To think that the results of slavery were typically benign or even > neutral is > fantasy. It is also naive to think that the slave masters would ever have > voluntarily given up their corrupt power. Don't just focus on the shallow > economics oriented histories, consider and read about the social/psychological > realities. As one who has devoted the major portion of his life studying "human nature" and "morals" and "political/social" philosophies.. I have to say this... The above falls properly into the realm of "psycho-babble." Those who fall for it could blame it on the mis-education system, but if they've been out of school for more than two or three years, they should have learned better. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Michael: Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: > This would be fine, but how would the government "know" whom to protect > inasmuch as there is a significant portion of our population with no > political voice. You actually believe this stuff you say? I don't have a "political voice," but the cops seem to respond when I've called them. > Therefore this governmental attribute you hold so dear becomes a defense > mechanism for the elite. Let me ask... Are you a student or graduate of Patrice LaMumba University in Moscow? > Hence the present chasm, in this nation, between the have's and the have-not's. And in other nations, there is no such chasm, right? Am I catching on? > A) How do the mentally impaired fall under your rubric of "reaping the > net result of the choices they make"? How do those families--specifically > children-- displaced by economic down-turns fall under the rubric of "net > result of choice"? Maybe they fall under the "rubric" of "chance." We all have risks in our lives, and sometimes things happen to us that we didn't choose... The application is the same, however... Your bad luck is not my responsibility. > B) It is fair by nature of the fact that the aforementioned gripers reap > a disproportionately large benefit from life in this society. Oh? And I suppose wise men (and women, just to be politically correct) will have meetings and decide what a "proportional benefit" would be? As a matter of fact, I think they already do... something called a graduated income tax. > "Social Darwinism" is hardly an emotive and hardly a term that I coined. > It refers to a general belief in the social equivalent of survival of the > fittest. Such a doctrine is fine in feudal systems, but once a social > system has been formed for the mutual benefit of all (civilization), such > doctrines become antiquated--or would if not revived by those of rightist bent. > Choose one: feudal system or civilization (representative democracy or > otherwise) and be willing to pay the price for your decision. How about freedom? Has that ceased to be a choice? > In this/my case, you are partially correct. I was to blame for not having > adequately prepared myself financially (at nineteen, such concepts were > sort of abstract :-)). My employer took it from there by downsizing me > during the initial stages of Reagan's "trickle-down" economy. Probl'y the smartest business decision he ever made... > Forgive me, Michael (actually this serves as partial re-inforcement of my > point about the compassionlessness and naivete'of the right), but, again, > at nineteen, I was oblivious of the need to prepare for the malevolent > economics of an equally malevolent president. and don't forget your malevolent boss... and his malevolent board of directors.. and perhaps the malevolent bankers who advised him to keep his expenses less than his income... Don't leave anyone out of your "victim" diatribe. > This is the key deficiency in the understanding of those of rightist > affiliation: a great many people fall prey to circumstances beyond their > control, and well outside the realm of choice. One can stretch the > philosophy of "blame the victim" only so far before the argument becomes > rediculous. What if we don't "blame anybody," and just let the chips fall where they may? My bad luck doesn't constitute a claim on your bank account. > I am fearful of being run over by a system in which I have no representation. I > guess it's a matter of choosing who and by what means should I be run over. That's the only smart thing you've said Good Boy! Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Squawk re-writes American history!!
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: > Life must be beautiful in your trailer-park world. Do you have some fascination with exposing your ignorance? Just for the record, I live in a neighborhood of homes that range in price from $250,000 and up... My home is valued right a half a million. I drive a $34,000 pick-up, and my wife drives a Mercedes. I earned the money for this myself, and with the half the govm't let me keep, I purchased whatever I own. I don't say these things to brag, as worldly riches are uncertain and fleeting... Only mention them to expose how ignorant you are, and point out that one should not put much stock in your opinions. > And your point is what? Do you suggest that an agrarian economy in > balance with it's environment is, somehow, primitive by comparison to the > destructive and metastatic (that means cancerous for you right-wingers > out there) production/technology-centered system of Europeans? Never said anything about "better" or "worse," and only mentioned that the Indians were minimal producers of anything, and lived in a constant state of semi-poverty. That may be "better" in the eyes of some people. I don't care, as long as they don't steal my stuff. > >Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy? > Give me >a break! > > You'll get no break from me, oh proud-to-be-ignorant one. The fact that > we "borrowed" the structure of our Constitution from the Iroquois > Republic (confederacy of a loose sort) is a matter of historical record. Neat! I'm sure that the Founding Fathers would never have come up with the idea of a loose confederacy without the Iroqois Sure... > >I thought you just said that the Europeans who came here had been farmers and > >fishers Did they forget how to do these things after the arrived over here? > > Initially, they were aristocrats in search of resources to plunder. So they came over here, leaving their palatial homes in Europe, to live in crude huts and exploit the Indians of their goods Right? Or were they looking for opportunity to build something better than they had (socially, materially, and economically) in the "old country?" I think its quaint how you use the term "plunder resources." What on earth should we do with them but manipulate them into useful things? Do you suggest the minerals and land are there to worship? Personally, I think oil is more useful in my automobile than it is 6,000 feet beneath the surface of the earth... So I'm all for plundering oil and anything else that can make my life better. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Nurev: Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: > > But Nurev, this is entirely too pessimistic. One person's failed society > is another's new beginning. A little barbequed pig is a good thing, now > and then :-) You know, I didn't think this kind of pathetic musing took place outside of Academia Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William... I am having to post this directly to you because I quickly use up my alloted 7 posts per day. William Hugh Tunstall wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Hawk, > Thank you for serving our country. As a veteran, you put your life on the line for >the country and > that is to be respected. That's why I don't quite understand your political >position. The fact that I "put my life on the line" is precisely what started me on the road to my political position. I was in the USAF for almost seven years as a professional military officer and aviator. During three of those years, I was involved in what later became known as the "Delta Force," but which then was "Blue Triangle" and a couple of other secretive names. As such, I engaged in numerous "informal" wars, insurrections, and general mayhem for the govm't of the U.S. -- often not even allowed to wear the uniform (we called these "T-shirt and blue-jean missions). I was also in VietNam quite a bit, before the conflict became a "war." In all of those missions, we were directly involved on the "wrong" side, or were sticking our noses into other peoples' affairs, generally helping some dictatorial govm't obtain or maintain its harsh control over the populace. Then, for three more years, I was directly involved in intelligence gathering operations. For three years, every morning, I saw "raw intelligence" -- information that had not been "laundered" for public consumption. Not one time -- and I mean not even ONCE -- did the truth about what was going on reach the average American. We were lied to on a continual basis, and are being lied to at the present time. I was trained in the process of developing "cover stories" about things that happened, and I can spot the various techniques because they are still in use today. In short, I distrust our govm't precisely because I know it to be a lying and manipulative government that has been and still is involved in an active effort to deny or reduce the freedom of everyone here and abroad. So, you see, neither I nor anyone else "in the service of this country" is responsible for the freedom that I do enjoy, and cerainly not for the freedom of people in other countries. > I'm descended from people who owned slaves. If you want to look in the historical >records of the > state of North Carolina, you will find that twenty-two members of my family fought >FOR the > Confederacy. They were not "bad" people...they thought they were fighting for their >friends and > neighbors...defending their "southern way of life," a way of life that involved the >enslavement of > human beings... I agree with you about what they were fighting for. > My grandfather, born in 1886, would tell me stories about how much our family loved >their slaves..how > well they treated them, etc. My grandfather wasn't deliberately lying... sure, my >family loved the > slaves. They were valuable property. That is not the only reason the loved their slaves. Surely you don't deny that close personal bonds were often deverloped between slaves and the family that owned them... It is well documented. > And they treated them humanely (if one can argue that owning a human being is a > humane idea). I do not say that "owning a human being is a humane idea" -- but neither is it an inhumane act. Anyone who understands the bible (which I allow as the only reliable source of determining "good" and "evil"), should quickly pick up on the idea that God does not consider the institution of slavery as evil. And if God doesn't consider it evil, then I certainly am not going to condemn HIM for His position on it. It is clear from the Bible that involuntary servitude is not preferable in many cases, but it is not condemned. It is the abuse of the relationship that is condemned. > They didn't separate family members... I still have visions of my grandfather, old >H.B., sitting in > his chair, puffing on his cigar, telling me about how much the family lived their >"." My > grandfather was a product of his generation. Who isn't? > And,for your information, the family had stories of the damned Yankees who > came into North Carolina, seizing the food and valuables of everyone. In > order to save their smoked hams, the family placed discolored flour on the > cuts of meat, hoping that the Yankees would think them poisoned. I was > raised on Civil War stories and states rights arguments. Same here... Some of my ancestors lived in S. Carolina. They were a large and prosperous family, and when the Union army came through, they burned 30 of the Willis plantations to the gro
Re: [CTRL] Squawk: Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Hawk: > > >Oh! how I wish you would be the leader of the pack! Come on, > compassionate one. > > Be still, Hawk. Wouldn't want you to blow a gasket. Better have lots of > bullets, pal. There are more of "them" than you. That's ok... let it begin... Hawk... "the calm one" DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > The preponderance of 'Indian mounds' throughout the eastern U.S. would > tend to belie your contention that the Native Americans were incapable of > producing anything... I never contended such a thing > Not all tribes were foragers and gatherers...many farmed...how do you > think the Pilgrims learned to grow corn, and fertilize it with fish? Fairy tale Do you think Europeans didn't know how to farm until Indians taught them? > The tribes of the northeast lived in established communities, dependent > on farming and fishing, with occasional hunting and occasional > 'gathering'...just like the European settlers... But with a big difference... No manufacturing that amounted to much more than handcrafts. > These same tribes had a pretty involved monetary system utilizing wampum, > and the Iroquois Confederacy became the foundation on which our own > Constitution was written...hardly 'nonproductive' people... Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy? Give me a break! > >Why, then, was North America, with is vast potential wealth, inhabited > >by starving people... > > The answer is, it wasn't...the Europeans did NOT find starving Indians > when they got here, in fact it was the European immigrants who starved, > and the native populations had to show the Europeans how to grow food, > what to hunt, fish, gather, etc., so that the Europeans could survive... I thought you just said that the Europeans who came here had been farmers and fishers Did they forget how to do these things after the arrived over here? Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Re: "sending kids off to war." Your caustic comment notwithstanding, you > nor I wouldn't be enjoying the freedoms we do have, if it wasn't for the > sacrifice of others... Perhaps, they were "stupid" to fight for this > country. I don't think so. They, and I was one of "them", did not do anything that promoted freedom in this country. We killed folks IN THEIR COUNTRY. I've been in five wars (OK, some were small wars, but it was wholesale killing non-the-less) in "my country's" uniform. And in NOT A SINGLE CASE was this country's "freedom" threatened. The last American soldiers to fight for "freedom" were Confederate soldiers. Since then, Amercian soldiers truly have fought gallantly... but they were not fighting for American freedom. WWII was fought "to make the world safe for communism." The outcome -- bottom line -- of that conflict was two-thirds of the world's population falling under communism. > Re: "paying bills." People have been paying YOUR bill for a long time. > They paid at Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Omaha, and a helluva lot of other places.. That's my point. I didn't have any bills to pay in Tarawa, Iwo Jima, etc > so you OWE something to this country... I don't owe anything to anyone for going half way around the world to kill people who were not a threat to me. Why is that so difficult a concept to understand? > A lot of Americans have paid the price so that you can have your miserable > little life. My "miserable little life?" Pardner, I myself have "paid the price" It is absurd for anyone to say that Americans sent to kill people in their own country "paid the price" so I could have ANY kind of life. > You should be proud to be a citizen...greatful to have the money to pay. So the next time some mugger pokes a gun in my face he should tell me, "You should be proud to be an American, and grateful that you have money for me to take." After all, he's taking my money so he can maintain his lifestyle of robbing and killing other people... > Or maybe it's time for you to move to the Cayman Islands or some taxhaven with >others of your > ilk. My ilk? Maybe its time for "others of my ilk" to sack up people "of your ilk" and ship THEM somewhere so we can live our lives without deadbeats robbing us of the fruit of our labor. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > All except you, Hawk; just keep your eyes closed. It may not hurt as much > when the grand disillusionment comes. :-) > > Edward ><> > >> Right now, it seems, cops and "citizens" are ahead. Keep an eye on the > >> race, compassionless ones. Oh! how I wish you would be the leader of the pack! Come on, compassionate one. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > All except you, Hawk; just keep your eyes closed. It may not hurt as much > when the grand disillusionment comes. :-) > > Edward ><> Come ahead... Lead the way... Happy Trails... Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Criminalizing Homelessness
-Caveat Lector- Edward Britton wrote: > Right now, it seems, cops and "citizens" are ahead. Keep an eye on the > race, compassionless ones. Barf Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > [snip] Until recently, the most knowledgable students estimated that there were > somewhere between 15 and 20 million Indians in the hemisphere when Columbus > arrived, agreeing also that probably only some 850,000 lived within the present > boundaries of the contiguous states of the United States, [snip] > > Suffice it to say that North America held far fewer Indians at Columbus' > entrance than people now believe and Josephy is a very fine reference, although > he is a generalist, not a high brow scholar. Few ever quibble with his general > materials, they are well researched. Think about this for a few minutes before going off the handle... In my opinion, the land mass that is now the contiguous United States had fewer than 1,000,000 inhabitants in the late 1400's and early 1500's. The indiginous people had been here for a long time... Ever wonder why there were so few? I think it was due to OVER-POPULATION. You see, what we call "over-population" is not a factor of "number of people per square mile," but is really a factor of "under-productivity per person." The Indians simply were not producers... They were foragers and gatherers, spending most of their energy getting something to eat and providing shelter for themselves. Thus, they were plagued with the same kind of problems we think of when considering so-called "overpopulated" countries. I is usually shocking when people first learn which countries are the most populated in terms of "people per square mile." When asked, most people respond, "China" or "India" or some other such place where masses of people are barely "getting by." In fact, the most populous country in terms of people per square mile is England. Next in line for numbers two and three are Scandinavian countries. Singapore is not even in the first three. Hong Kong is very crowded, also... But these countries all have a VERY HIGH standard of living... Hong Kong and Singapore do not even have any "natural resources" to speak of... Africa has vast regions where people per square mile is a meaningless idea (divide zero by any number and round off to the next highest number, and its still zero). The reason is that productivity per person is high in the most crowded nations. And Africa, though sparsely populated, much as was North America, is populated as such by very poor people barely scraping by. Why, then, was North America, with is vast potential wealth, inhabited by starving people... as is Africa today? I believe it is because of what I called a "tribal mentality" which is a form of socialism to the extreme. It is a socio-economic system that stymies individual responsibility and productivity.. When the northern Europeans came over here, many of them came precisely for "freedom" to run their own affairs, which is the economic system known as capitalism... and "capitalism" is the engine, the driving force, of productivity and wealth ... It is the force that is responsible for creating and sustaining the most wealthy nation of people the world has ever known... It is not responsible for the fact that not *everyone* is wealthy... because there can be no such convergence as "Freedom" AND "Equality." Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Two Cows (humor)
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > > > > CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. > > > > > This single line for capitalism which makes it sound like a right smart system > while the alternatives are described with multiple sentences and none too > flatteringly is not well balanced. Is there a "balance" between Truth and Error? What would it be, "Sorta right?" > I don't know what the right add-on should be but as it is, it doesn't account > for the ruthless quality of capitalism which leaves 41 million Americans below > the poverty line. Capitalism doesn't "leave" anyone below the poverty line. You pays your money and you makes your choice. I've been below the poverty line, and capitalism is what made it possible for me to rise above it... It sure as hell wasn't welfare! > It is also silent about the harsher tone of American capitalism that developed > after the fall of the Soviet Union. For the sake of the Russian people and the > American people, we need Gorbachev back. You're serious? For your information, Gorbechev IS back... He is lounging in palatial splendor in the Presidio -- courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer -- just outside of San Francisco... While your pathetic masses are wallowing in poverty. Great guy, Gorbechev.. ex-honcho of the Gulag. Give me a break! Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: > > >Maybe I should have said "Domesticated Indian elephants." You're back to talking > about "wild" elephants that "belong to the people." > > And just WHERE do you think those 'domesticated Indian elephants' get > PARKED? Most elephants do not get parked... > Do you really think that privately owned Indian elephants in the increasingly > urbanized southeast Asia get put into garages, complete with automatic dooropeners, > every night? Nope... hadn't thought that at all. Why would you suppose such an absurd thing? > I stand by my statement...the DOMESTICATED Indian elephant is also in > trouble, due to the loss of its natural habitat. The domesticated elephant does not live in "natrual habitat." Presumably he gets parked in garages with automatic door openers... right? I have a horse, for instance, that does not live in "natural habitat." She's far healthier and has a chance of living to be 25 or so years, unlike the horses still striving for survial in "natural habitat." > your contention was that AFRICAN elephants should be privately owned like some Indian > elephants are...ignoring the FACT that African elephants are basically untrainable. Training has nothing whatsoever to do with it. If people owned African elephants, and there resources were dependent on the elephant's welfare, they would take care of them and the elephants would be better off. > You also ignore the fact of the USES the Indian elephant was put to, and > therefore fail to recognize WHY the Indian elephant, privately owned tho > many of them may be, is becoming increasingly rare... If there is no use for them, why the expense and effort to keep them alive? > It would make as much sense to argue that Saudis and Kuwaitis should go > back to using camels instead of driving cars... Frankly, my dear, I don't care what Saudis and Kuwaitis use... it is none of my business. > I would not presume to second-guess God's mind in WHY elephants...or any > other species...was put on Earth...neither would I presume to state that > eliminating any species would have little, or no, effect on the greater > whole... Then you shouldn't presume that preserving the species is worth the effort either. > But my guess is that God will treat each one of us by the way we treated > the lesser species in our care/dominion... Guess to your heart's content... so long as you don't force me to pay for it. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > >> and history. For your information, the typical Negro slave received back, > > over the period of his life, about 90% of the wealth he produced... He had a > longer life expectency than white Europeans of the time, and was better off > in practically every measurable aspect of economic life and physical health > than was any "peasant class" worker in the world ( specifically factory > workers in the industrial north and Europe). > > You must be living in a dream world, have you been shooting something into > your arm? Nope... and I live in the real world... And from your post, I seem to have a better comprehension of it than the likes of you. > If you learned very little in school, it is not too late. Oh, I "learned" a lot in school... Apparently the same thing you learned. Fortunately, I was able to "un-learn" the bullshit that was presented. Unfortunately, you don't seem to have learned anything except the propoganda... It MAY be too late. > I suggest you read Bullwhip Days to unburden yourself of the scales that cover > your eyes. "Bullwhip" huh? Sounds charming. Since we are suggesting things to each other, while there is one suggestion that I am tempted to make, I will, instead, encourage you to read "Time On the Cross" by PulitzerPrize-winning author William Fogel. You might learn something. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] THE NEA'S GRAB-BAG OF ISSUES
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > What's wrong with adopting a national energy policy? > > I think it's a sane thing to do, especially since the end of the world's oil > supply is looming on the millennial horizon. What a crock! The world is awash with oil! Seems like some folks once said the same thing about the demise of the world's whale-oil supply. Central controls isn't the answer... FREEDOM to get rich by taking big chances is the answer, just as it was then. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [prj] Y2K--Why Not Buy New Software?
-Caveat Lector- I Wanna Be Me Again wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > The scope and seriousness of losing our power, communications and banking systems >simultaneously will immediately shatter the > functioning of everything, including federal and state government. It is my >understanding that the coming Y2k disaster has the > potential to be brutally destructive and a direct threat to individual survival. IF this happens as you predict, it may be the ONLY "window of opportunity" for those who love freedom to cast off their shackles. As long as all govm't computers and lines of command are functional, "freedom lovers" have basically one option -- begging their masters to go easy on them... IF, however, the hands of the masters are full just trying to juggle their multiple problems, it might give a sliver of hope for freedom. In other words, "they" may have bigger fish to fry Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] nurev: Drudge Report//agreement
-Caveat Lector- Sno0wl wrote: > I'm assuming nothing. I just think that stories like this should not be printed > unless the facts are in and they ARE true. Let's examine your position here Did Druge say that Slick was the father of the boy? No, not to my knowledge. Did he say that a certain woman claimed that he impregnated her? Yes. Did she make that claim? Yes. Did she support her claim with some kind of evidence? Yes (lie detector test). So, based on these things, the story as printed WAS factual. What the readers infered may or may not be. That remains to be seen. > That someone thinks they might be true, does not make such stories newsworthy. There are reports every day where someone claims to have been robbed, or beaten, or tricked, or whatever. The news report should be "So and so CLAIMED that thus and so happened to them." Should we wait until after the trial to report the incident? > And in the process, much personal damage is done all round. If one sleeps with the dogs, he should expect to have fleas. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] THE NEA'S GRAB-BAG OF ISSUES]
-Caveat Lector- Robert Tatman wrote: > > THE NEA'S GRAB-BAG OF ISSUES > > > Here is a brief profile of its interests: snip > > Sounds good to me... Honestly, I'd vote for any candidate who ran on these > points as a platform! If that makes me a Socialist or Communist or something, > so be it... Well, Sir, you sure did identify yourself properly Each of the proposals is increased "people control" by a central government. You'd have loved Russia under Stalin. > but these points make a *hell* of a lot more sense than the crap > spewed forth by the Republicrats and Demipublicans. Actually, its the same "crap." > And if the NEA has the funds to pay to elect people who will actually do something >*for* the citizens of this country instead of *to* us, then more power to them... They cannot do something FOR "us" without first doing something TO "us." Just keep that in mind when you're begging them to do it "to others" in favor of your crowd.. There's always a different crowd begging them to do something "to you" for their benefit Its really pretty simple. It boils down to "There ain't no free lunch." Somebody has to pay for all the "goodies" other people get. Whenever ANYONE gets "something for nothing," someone else got "Nothing for something." Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel menan...
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > In reality, it was the Southern soldiers who were fighting for the > > principle of self-government. > > Is there anything so jaw dropping inexplicable than the few who attempt to > make the South out as a victim of the North over the Civil War? It may be as you describe, if you are as ignorant as your statement suggests. > There are "shrines" to Jefferson Davis and Stonewall Jackson. Take a tour of > the South and your ear will be bent by a guide babbling about how cruel the > Yankees were at Vicksburg. Are you suggesting that the citizens and soldiers Vicksburg was not treated rather cruelly? They were at war, and it makes sense that their attackers would blow things up and kill people... Vicksburg isn't, however, a good example to illustrate cruelty. There are far better ones. > Listening to them, one would never guess that the South was run by a gang of > slavers who do not at all correspond to those portrayed in Gone With the Wind as > kindly masters taking loving care of some child like people. You learned this in public school, no doubt. I will challenge you to share your evidence, and will in like manner share mine... Your choice of words indicates that you prefer emotionalism to objective discussion, however.. For instance, the elected government of the South was no more a "gang of slavers" than was the north a "gang of slave traders." > Of course, things are complicated and there were many decent Christian > Southerners who smuggled slaves, spied on Southern military units, and > sabotaged when possible. You mean the traitors? > There were right-wing Northerners who spoke and acted for the South. There were > slave holding prosperous free blacks in the South. There were a few slave > holders who did treat their slaves with some shred of fairness considering the > relationship. A few? I believe the documentation of the era supports that such was the norm. Unless, of course, your study of history is mainly pulp such as "Uncle Tom's Cabin." > The real point is that every son of the South who involves himself in > discussions about the Civil War should get down on his knees and thank God that > the Union won the war thereby freeing both slave and "free" Southerner. Absurd... The war was never intended to free the slave, but to enslave the master... and its objective was accomplished. And I, for one, will not "thank God" for having my country over-run by the imperial United States, and making my state a mere administrative extension of an over-bearing and increasingly intolerable Central Govm't... Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > I'm all for your right to own an elephant, Hawk. > Go for it. > > However, I think your argument that private owners make better > caretakers because they are interested in protecting their investment > might be a little weak. I don't think its weak at all... Most people don't take care of "other peoples' stuff" as well as they care for their own... I'll bet you use more generous portions of toilet paper in a motel than you do when you're directly paying for it. Ever heard the old saying, "I'll beat you like a government mule"??? The basis for that little phrase is that people just don't take care of government stuff as well as they do their own. There are a zillion examples to support it. > It resembles the arguments used by white slaveowners during the Abolitionist >debates... "We > love our slaves...after all, they're investments.. We have to take care of them or >they lose > their value.." It was, I might add, a valid argument. I've done a bit of research in that aspect of economics and history. For your information, the typical Negro slave received back, over the period of his life, about 90% of the wealth he produced... He had a longer life expectency than white Europeans of the time, and was better off in practically every measurable aspect of economic life and physical health than was any "peasant class" worker in the world (specifically factory workers in the industrial north and Europe). Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
;s why they were living in tents, and why they now live in hovels. The point is, they created no wealth, and having no one the tax, they were destitute. > Re: "God made animals for us" comments. They're made for the plate? An > interesting argument. I would only point out that we might consider some > healthier, "kinder and gentler" (borrowing a phrase) ways of taking care > of our protein needs. Just a thought. But of course we could follow PJ > O'Rourke's advice and eat the rich. You eat whatever you wish... I don't care what you eat... or who, for that matter. Just don't expect me to pay your bills. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > >They are run over with elephants... elephants are thriving and > >multiplying. > > Bullshit. The Indian elephant's in trouble due to loss of it's natural > habitat... Maybe I should have said "Domesticated Indian elephants." You're back to talking about "wild" elephants that "belong to the people." > >There is no danger of their becoming extinct. > > Again, bullshit. An elephant is extremely expensive, to buy, to train > (takes years), and to house and feed adequately...therefore most areas of > the east where the elephant was once used have replaced the elephant with > gasoline-driven vehicles to do the same work, as the gas vehicles are > ultimately cheaper... Proves my point As long as there was a "use" for elephants, and people were allowed to own them for their personal use, there was no danger of them becoming extinct. As for the rest of the world, I must say that not having ever seen a "do-do bird" doesn't seem to have had a detrimental effect on me... And since I can no longer buy elephant-hide boots, and never had a desire to own any ivory, the extinction of elephants would not effect me much either. I don't think they were "put here" for entertainment purposes (i.e. vacation trips to Africa, or even to the zoo, to "see the elephants.") Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men andhelpless victi
-Caveat Lector- "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > What is your explanation for the seeming ability of a capitalist society to > sustain so many more people on the same land mass? I don't know what he's gonna say, but I'll give you my answer: It is because the Indians were "takers" and "destroyers," while the white European settlers were producers. Very few "natural resources" are "wealth." They only become "wealth" when they are fabricated or manipulated into something more useful than gazing at them. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men andhelpless victi
-Caveat Lector- E Mael wrote: > but i think that j. would agree that his one life is not as valuable as millions > of lives lost to capitalism, greed and self-interest. the gop is right up there. > > for those of you restless spirits who would disagree; this is not a poll > of your opinion of my opinion, so keep yours to yourselves, as this is > only in response to the question. Thank you, but I choose to express my opinion, regardless of your approval or disapproval. To your list that includes "capitalism," you might also add, "communism, socialism, facism, witchcraft, imperialism, sickness, disease, famine, and pestilence." Compared to any of those, "capitalism" pales in significance. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Hawk wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > William Hugh Tunstall wrote: > > > Re: American Indian hunting practices. Native Americans were smart enough > > to realize that it wasn't a good idea to exhaust the resources of the environment. > > Hawk said: They were also stupid enough not to realize the value of personal >ownership > of wealth, and the productive power of capitalism... Then I thought of something else... Let's compare the American Bison with the elephant. In Africa, elephants are owned by "the people," which everyone with any sense should know by now, means "the government." There is no private ownership of elephants. Vast resources are spent (read, "taxpayer money") to protect the elephant for extinction due to poachers, disease, and general mis-management of the herds. On the other hand, in Burma, Thailand, and other countries, "people" -- without "the" in front of it -- meaning "individuals" -- own the elephants. The elephants are used as beasts of burden in private enterprise. They are run over with elephants... elephants are thriving and multiplying. There is no danger of their becoming extinct. The reason is this: When elephants belong to individuals, and represent "wealth" to that person, he takes care of them, nurtures them, and promotes their well-being AT NO COST TO "SOCIETY." He pays all this out of his own pocket, for his own welfare and to produce his own wealth. It is the same with almost any "natural resource." When the govm't owns it, there is a burden on the taxpayer, and the resource is almost certain to be mis-managed, costly, and in danger of depletion. When individuals own resources, they foot the bill for preservation and management of the resource. While an individual may needlessly and foolishly exploit or squander his little portion of the resource, it is unlikely that all owners of similar resources would be so foolish. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Thank you for the excellent post. Here in North Dakota, the agricultural > community is hurting thanks to a number of stupid government policies... > NAFTA and the Republican "Freedom to Farm" bill... The wheat growers are > particularly angry at Canadian dumping of wheat on this side of the > border... The wheat consumers -- such as I -- are particularly angry at the US Govm't for subsidizing farmers and paying them NOT to grow wheat... However, I hasten point out that I disbelieve you when you say that Canadians are "dumping" wheat in the United States... Why would they do that? Seems like they would sell it to Americans. And if Amercians are buying Canadian wheat rather than American wheat, doesn't it make you wonder why? Could it be that they are selling it at a price MOST Americans would rather pay? Why should I subsidize a North Dakota farmer who's trying to rip me off by charging higher prices than the Canadians? > Out in the western half of the state ( posse comitatus-militia country), the beef > industry still holds sway The cattle industry plays hell with the > environment... There's an interesting idea Who's "environment?" Chances are it is land owned by the United States government, and leased to the cattle rancher. If the govm't would sell all the land it owns, it could wipe out the national debt. Did you know that the U.S. govm't owns MORE LAND west of the Mississippi than there IS LAND east of that mighty river? Why should the govm't own all that land in the first place? > As the family farms go under, many of the farm people find themselves targeted by > white supremacist groups If they are "going under," what are they being targeted for? Family farms are "going under" primarily because of govm't programs that encourage stupid economics, which has little to do with white supremacist groups, which don't know any economics. > Re: American Indian hunting practices. Native Americans were smart enough > to realize that it wasn't a good idea to exhaust the resources of the environment. They were also stupid enough not to realize the value of personal ownership of wealth, and the productive power of capitalism... After all, that's why they were living in tents and barely subsisting... "Hunters and gatherers" don't have any capital to carry them over in hard times (such as a bad hunting season). "Tribal mentality" is the same as "slave mentality," which isn't known to result in creation of wealth and prosperity. > The buffalo was the Native American equivalent to a supermarket... every part of the > animal was used by the plains people.. Waste not...want not... I think most of them "wanted" most of the time... Because they were non-producers, they suffered the same fate as so-called "over-populated" countries... ie being destitute most of the time. > We need to move towards a more humane and environmentally sound policy like > getting our protein needs from soy beans and grain... If God didn't want us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat. > Plus, think about the needless destruction to our water supplies... There's about the same amount of water in the world as there has been for several centuries. All we can do with it is try to move it from place to place, and even then, it isn't usually very cooperative. > (and think about the people who have to slaughter the animals for a living, just so > you can have your supply of burgers) WoW! What a brilliant statement! In case you haven't learned this, those people aren't slaughtering animals "so I can have hamburgers." They don't give a damn if I EVER have a hamburger... They don't even know me... In my opinion, they are slaughtering animals so THEY can have what THEY want -- most of which costs money, which they earn by slaughtering animals. > Try a veggie burger..they're great! No thanks... I need to keep my cholesterol count high... the govm't says it should be low, and they lie about everything. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let
Re: [CTRL] Read this post. It is about senseless and cruel men andhelplessvictims
-Caveat Lector- ArijJan Verboon wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Ladies and gentleman > > I am wtriting a thesis paper on Milton and need an illustration. What is in > your opinion the most despicable business transaction that ever took place In my opinion, the most despicable business transaction was the betrayal of Jesus, by Judas, for thirty pieces of silver. > and what is in your opinion the most despicable con that ever took place? The most despicable con was that perpertrated by Abraham Lincoln and his cadre'. Consider this: In the Gettysburg Address, "Honest" Abe made the absurd claim that the Union soldiers who died in the Battle of Gettysburg gave their lives to protect the concept of a nation "of the people, by the people, and for the people." In reality, it was the Southern soldiers who were fighting for the principle of self-government. "You can fool ALL of the people SOME of the time... and SOME of the people ALL of the time..." and in this case, that's proven sufficient to pull off the master con. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Tobacco capitalists' global offensive.
t... Now I see you were just joking all along. > If you don't like it leave. You are not going to get your way because it's impossible > to run a large society on such idotic ideology. There you go again "If you don't do as I say, you must leave." But, my egotistical and lunatic friend... There is another option... > You may need to start your own. That's right! You guessed it. Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] United States.... A Communist Nation?
-Caveat Lector- Jim Kinney wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > I agree that there are serious problems with the American system. I > agree.. the entire 'rich get richer / poor get poorer' problem that our > nation has fallen into is a horrible state of affairs, Why so? In order to alleviate that "state of affairs," one has to use coercive power to guarantee equal results regardless of mirit, chance, or any other factor. You simply cannot have BOTH "Freedom" and "Equality." And every attempt to may things "even just a bit more equal" requires relinquishing "just a bit more freedom." If we have freedom, then there will inevitably be inequality. If we have equality, then there will inevitably be loss of freedom. Any attempt to violate that principle results in less freedom AND less equality, because the attempt itself is a violation of Natural Law. > Calling our system 'Socialist' or 'Communist' because of an imbalance of > political power is as mistaken as calling the departed U.S.S.R. 'Capitalist' > because there were definitely people who made more than others for an equal > amount of work. But, Sir, "an imbalance of power" is not anything close to a definition of "socialism" or "communism." Nor is the fact that some people are more accomplished at producing wealth than others a definition of "capitalism." An "imbalance of power" could just as well be a monarchy, and "unequal results for equal effort" could describe a slave galley as well as it could General Motors... neither or which advocate nor practice capitalism. > Socialism and Communism, in their idealized forms, do not include that large > disparity of wealth. And, since no such critter has ever been seen, the "idealized forms" of those philosophies are in the same category as the "Tooth Fairy" -- pure fantasy. > The U.S.S.R. did not have a 'true' (read: idealized) form of Communism and > more than the U.S.A. has a 'true' form of Democracy. Where did you get the idea that the United States was designed to be a "true form of democracy"? A "true form of democracy" is perhaps the most despotic and horrendous form of government one could conceive of... In other words, "If my gang is bigger than your gang, we can do whatever-in-the-hell we want to with you and yours." > [snip] We aren't communists or socialists, just deeply screwed up believers in > democracy who have let things go wrong. Speak for yourself, please... At least for my part (and I suppose several others on this list) I am NOT a "believer in democracy." Look it up... "Democracy" means "mob rule." Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Taliban War on Women petition
-Caveat Lector- Kenn Thomas wrote: > I submit this in the hope that it does not suggest to anyone support for the US > bombing of Afghanistan. [major snip] > * > STATEMENT: > > In signing this, we agree that the current treatment of > women inAfghanistan is completely UNACCEPTABLE and deserves > support and action by the people of the United States and > the U.S. Government and that the current situation overseas will not > be tolerated. Women's Rights is not a small issue anywhere and > it is UNACCEPTABLE for women in 1998 to be treated as sub-human > and so much as property. Equality and human decency is a RIGHT not > a freedom, whether one lives in Afghanistan or the United States.* This is absurd Any "people of the United States" who are so outraged at what is going on in Afghanistan have my permission to go over there, take up arms, encourage riots, start a revolt, or do whatever-in-the-hell they want to do I resent the idea that they presume the right or power to force my participation in their "holy war." How in heaven's name do you propose to "support and take action" against the govm't of Afghanistan without taxpayer expense (meaning, you make me pay for your project)? What do we go after next? Discriminatory credit practices in Poland? Harsh prison treatment in China? Black lawlessness in South Africa? Good grief! Don't we have a substantial number of "causes" right here in this country, without poking our collective noses in every other country in the world? Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] hello (again)
-Caveat Lector- MARK wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > HAWK, sometimes you are a really good source of information. BUT LEAVE > OFF WHAT YOU DONT KNOW I believe I asked a question Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Tobacco capitalists' global offensive.
-Caveat Lector- Joshua wrote: > Freedom is not scary to me. Libertarians are scary to me. They seem to be > somewhat adolescent. Like you for example. The above statement is scarily > absurd in its lack of reality perception. YOU MUST BE A LIAR to state that > crack, heroin, alcohol, and tobacco have no affects on people other than the > users. I won't even dignify your idiotic statement with obvious examples of its > absurdity. Hey... May I say something? In case you don't grasp the concept... If you or anyone else shoves pine cones up his well, into his ears, lets say, and it causes severe irritation to you, BUT you want to do it, why the hell should I care? Should we outlaw pine cones? Of course not. But if your severe irritation causes you to throw rocks at passing cars, then eventually you will suffer even more for that anti-social behaviour, because you force the consequences of YOUR irrational behaviour on OTHERS. Your come-uppence, however, should be based on the throwing of rocks at other people, and NOT foster attempts to outlaw pine cones. > > What exactly do you find so troubling? Do you not believe an individual > > is 'intelligent' enough to determine his own vices? > > Some are, but most are not. And, we are to suppose, YOU are? Or rather, YOU and a group of others who agree with you? > I fear stupidity and and the legitimization of greed. Ah You do not fear the outlawing of greed? Thus, if anyone does anything for a selfish reason, he should be convicted of a crime? If so, practically every free exchange of goods and services for money would make criminals out of all the participants in the deal. > Not freedom and liberty. I fear ideological theories that have no basis in > reality. Then why do you embrace them so? > I have actually lived in the type of society you theorize about. I have seen > people damage themselves irreparably and even die because those who they lived > with weren't sure that they should step in and save them from themselves. Dear God! Please deliver us from such as would "save us from ourselves!" > It was tragic and unnecessary. Life is more important than freedom. That's what > you clowns can't seem to understand. That is PRECISELY the most wimpish and absurd thing you could say. It is such a theory that makes people volunteer for slavery rather than accept responsibility for their own actions Please, Sir, find a kind master for yourself and leave the rest of us alone. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] United States of Urantia? I don't think so.
-Caveat Lector- Andrew Hennessey wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Kinda wrote for the purposes of my assimilation . > > > >The Thought Adjusters are actual spirit fragments of the Universal Father. > >They come to every child with a normal mind when they are about 6 years old. Excuse me Is this a "game list" of some kind? I thought it was for serious discussion of political/economic conspiracy theories Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] hello (again)
-Caveat Lector- MARK wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > Listen PAL!, I wanted to keep this quiet, but you will not let go, your > psuedo friendship has caused nothing but grief. I wonder if this immature BS couldn't be handled on private email? Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Poll Conspiracy - Public Opinion Conspiracy - VotingC...
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: > I have to admit to being more than a tad suspicious of anything which the > Libertarians or conservatives find appealing. The Libertarians sound > appealing [snip] much of what was said at their convention in 1996 and it became > plain that the party leaders are mostly interested in avoiding taxes. They > either > believe that it is possible to have a society worth living in without expenses > or their top priority is "let George pay for it" where George is you or me. I believe you have Libertarianism mixed up with anarchy and the current system, socialism. Libertarians only want "George" to pay for what "George" uses, without any help from the rest of us. > At this point i am not sufficiently familiar with the issue of going back to > count the ballot the old fashioned way. Doubtlessly, there are certain > efficiencies in automated vote counts for both time and money. Yes, its the same kind of "efficiencies" that regulate what percentage slot machines return to the suckers that play them... Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
