Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Jim Brown]

On 3/9/2012 5:48 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> OCF antennas, under miscellaneous names, have been working fine, just fine,
> just about as long as radio.

"Working fine" depends on your definition of "the big picture," and your 
ability to diagnose problems. The problem with OCF antennas is COMMON 
MODE FEEDLINE CURRENT, which causes the feedline to receive noise, make 
the shack hot with RF, and radiate RF to the TV and stereoand computer 
in our living room (and our neighbor's living room).   Fifty years ago, 
there was relatively little man made noise to be picked up on the 
feedline of our antennas, the equipment in our living room did not have 
Pin One Problems that turned all of the wiring into receiving and 
transmitting antennas, and the equipment in our neighbors' living room 
was not full of noise generators (other than their TV set's horizontal 
flyback system).

Equally important, we had not LEARNED about common mode current on 
feedlines, and its contribution to these problems.  We lived in blissful 
ignorance.  We called CQ, we got responses, we had fun, but we also had 
TVI!  And when the electronics world changed, introducing Pin One 
Problems, digital equipment, and switching power supplies to create 
noise, COMMON MODE CURRENT on feedlines started biting us in the behind, 
WHETHER WE KNEW IT OR NOT.

  As Guy and I have both noted, we can get away with unbalanced antennas 
if we choke them to death, but we're going to fry chokes if we run power 
unless we use MULTIPLE chokes.  And "choking them to death" means 
multiple turns around ferrite cores (multiple cores and multiple chokes 
for high power).

A FAR better solution, if we can do it, is resonant antennas for each 
band, well choked.  If you're limited on space that can be done with fan 
dipoles or traps or loading coils.  And there is NO MAGIC to parallel 
wire feedline -- there can be just as much common mode current on 
parallel wire line as on coax if the antenna itself is unbalanced.  
Balance is determined by the entire circuit -- the antenna, the 
feedline, and the transmitter (including the tuner), not ONLY the 
feedline. That's why I object to  the words "balanced feedline" -- they 
are are pure fiction.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] RTTY and Alternating BW.25 and BW .50

[Mike K2MK]

Hi Tom,

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that I was changing to VFO B. I meant
that the LOWER display showed the VFO A bandwidth and then the LOWER display
reverted back to showing the VFO B frequency. I was just indicating that the
VFO A bandwidth remained constant and did not flip flop from one bandwidth
to another. 

My money is still on software involvement. Did you experiment without your
software running?

73,
Mike K2MK



KQ5S wrote
> 
> It is not changing when going to VFO B.  I stay on VFO A and am
> getting the alternating BW .25 and BW.50 where the VFO B readout is.
> 
> Tom
> KQ5S
> 
> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:59 PM, Mike K2MK  wrote:
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> My lower readout is stable, reporting the bandwidth as it was set and not
>> modifying it then changing to VFO B frequency. I would suspect that your
>> PC
>> software program is asserting a command. Try it without your software
>> running or with your RS232 disconnected.
>>
>> 73,
>> Mike K2MK
>>
>>
>> KQ5S wrote
>>>
>>> I should have said I am using FSK D.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>> KQ5S
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 12:39 AM, Tom  wrote:
 While in RTTY (Data A) I have hte DUAL PB turned on.  I am seeing
 where VFO B is an alternating BW .25 and BW .50 and then the VFO B
 frequency.   As BW changes from .25 to .50 the  twin band width
 indicators change accordingly.

 Is this normal?

 Tom
 KQ5S
> 


--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/RTTY-and-Alternating-BW-25-and-BW-50-tp7360063p7360908.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Kevin]

I have very fond memories of my Carolina Windom 80 strung between two 
50' Sycamore trees.
I won my section of the 1999 Nov Sweepstakes and the 2000 ARRL Int.DX 
contest with that antenna an MFJ 949E tuner and 100W from my 
hand-me-down TS-520.

Not bad for an antenna that "can't work".

-- 
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H

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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Gary Gregory]

*Kevin,

I worked the world in 1999 on an IC-706MKIIG, an SS750 Henry amplifier and
a Gary Stookey built GS3 screwdriver antenna mounted on my Kenworth 18
wheeler in the US..but they don't work either eh?

Oh well...I Can Only Monitor must mean something after all..TIC

73

Gary

The nice man in the white coat coat is calling me...again
*
On 10 March 2012 22:14, Kevin  wrote:

> I have very fond memories of my Carolina Windom 80 strung between two
> 50' Sycamore trees.
> I won my section of the 1999 Nov Sweepstakes and the 2000 ARRL Int.DX
> contest with that antenna an MFJ 949E tuner and 100W from my
> hand-me-down TS-520.
>
> Not bad for an antenna that "can't work".
>
> --
> R. Kevin Stover
> AC0H
>
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>



-- 
Gary
VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
Elecraft Equipment
K3 #679, KPA-500 #018
Living the dream!!!
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[John Oppenheimer]

This thread has a count of 15. I thought I would squeeze one more in
before the end of thread is called.

Last year I performed some simple OCF Dipole investigations. My quest is
to make a 15/20 trapped OCF dipole to place in an asymmetrical location
in my attic. My rather incomplete notes can be found here:
http://www.kn5l.net/ocfda/OCFDA.pdf

My general finding for a OCF Dipole antenna are:

EZNEC models, with accurate AGL parameters (including the Vee shape),
are highly predictive within my ability to measure antenna parameters,
Autek Model VA1 and KAT2 SWR meter.

Best I can tell, a dual core 4:1 Balun does shunt coax shield currents.
My observation is based on the EZNEC modeling versus actual measurements
and noting that changing the feed-line length did not alter the measured
antenna parameters.

The off center ratio is highly dependent on antenna height for a
relatively low antenna. So much so, that a single set of values will
probably not be suitable for an application. If one wants to put up an
optimal OCF Dipole, then you may want to use a modeling program or be
prepared to perform a bunch of at location measurement and cuts to find
the optimal values.

A OCF Dipole does seem to work. I worked T32C using my K2/10 and the 15
meter OCF Dipole investigation antenna in my back yard.

John, KN5L
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[Elecraft] Power SDR Software

[Mike]

Gimmick, or feature request?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t17ipMS8gAk
>
73, Mike NF4L
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Re: [Elecraft] RTTY and Alternating BW.25 and BW .50

[Tom]

Thanks Mike,  You were right on.  My K3 is new and I was doing a lot
of playing around with it and somehow managed to get things out of
whack.  I shut everything down and rebooted and all is well.

Tom
KQ5S

On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Mike K2MK  wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>
> Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that I was changing to VFO B. I meant
> that the LOWER display showed the VFO A bandwidth and then the LOWER display
> reverted back to showing the VFO B frequency. I was just indicating that the
> VFO A bandwidth remained constant and did not flip flop from one bandwidth
> to another.
>
> My money is still on software involvement. Did you experiment without your
> software running?
>
> 73,
> Mike K2MK
>
>
>
> KQ5S wrote
>>
>> It is not changing when going to VFO B.  I stay on VFO A and am
>> getting the alternating BW .25 and BW.50 where the VFO B readout is.
>>
>> Tom
>> KQ5S
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:59 PM, Mike K2MK  wrote:
>>> Hi Tom,
>>>
>>> My lower readout is stable, reporting the bandwidth as it was set and not
>>> modifying it then changing to VFO B frequency. I would suspect that your
>>> PC
>>> software program is asserting a command. Try it without your software
>>> running or with your RS232 disconnected.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Mike K2MK
>>>
>>>
>>> KQ5S wrote

 I should have said I am using FSK D.

 Tom
 KQ5S

 On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 12:39 AM, Tom  wrote:
> While in RTTY (Data A) I have hte DUAL PB turned on.  I am seeing
> where VFO B is an alternating BW .25 and BW .50 and then the VFO B
> frequency.   As BW changes from .25 to .50 the  twin band width
> indicators change accordingly.
>
> Is this normal?
>
> Tom
> KQ5S
>>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/RTTY-and-Alternating-BW-25-and-BW-50-tp7360063p7360908.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Rick Stealey]

There seems to have been no answer as to how to accurately measure the loss in 
a tuner.  
Here is a solution but requires two tuners or at least one calibrated one that 
could be
used to measure others.
Take first tuner and tune it into the mismatch, say 600 ohms.  Use an antenna 
analyzer.
Then remove the load, and connect another tuner to the output of the first 
(back-
to-back - antenna port on first to antenna port on second tuner.)  Then put a 
50 ohm 
load on the second tuner where the transceiver would be connected, and tune the 
second 
tuner to a match.  It will have the same settings as the first tuner, complete 
symmetry.
Then measure the power in the 50 ohm load  to get the loss.

Since both tuners are matching the same load, and the system is symmetrical the
loss contribution by each tuner is half.  Repeat for other types of loads, and 
now
you have a calibrated tuner to use with any tuner you want to test.

Rick  K2XT
  
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Re: [Elecraft] K2/100 Construction Photos - a link

[Alan D. Wilcox]

Thanks, Don.
You can't go wrong with the K3: they're excellent radios.
As always, it all depends on what you want to do with it.
Cheers,
Alan

Alan D. Wilcox, W3DVX (K2-5373, K3-40)
570-321-1516
http://WilcoxEngineering.com
http://WilcoxPublishing.com
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/28062?ref=awilcox
Williamsport, PA 17701

On 3/8/12 12:23 PM, Don Baucom wrote:
> Great work!
> I just finished #7261 . Im trying to decide whether to get a K3 next or
> build a K2/SSB/100w
>
> 73
> Don
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Mike]

That's the most expensive latte I've ever seen. :-P

73, Mike NF4L

On 3/9/2012 11:49 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
> So let me say one thing I know about antennas:
>
> PUT SOMETHING UP AND GET ON THE AIR.
>
> You can get perfect up, and you can get OK up. You an argue about what
> works better and what works worse. But when the bands are open, you
> might be able to work DX with a cantenna under your desk. (I've heard
> stories.)
>
> I used an untuned dipole with a LDG tuner to work my first (and only)
> DXCC back in the last sunspot cycle.
>
> So what I'm saying is put something up FIRST and then start the arguing,
> I mean, discussion.
>
> (But then again there are all sorts of aspects to the hobby and if you're
> here to argue you can if you want.)
>


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[Elecraft] K3 - G5RV vs ZS6BKW antenna

[Rich - K1HTV]

Dick,
   Instead of the G5RV antenna, consider using a modified version of it, the
ZS6BKW, with your K3. The ZS6BKW antenna has better impedance characteristics on
more bands than the G5RV. The K3's ATU matches the antenna on all of the bands
that it is designed to work on, 80, 40, 20, 17, 12 and 10 meters.  It will also
work on 6 Meters, but its lowest SWR is at 51 MHz, not very helpful.  The ZS6BKW
antenna has a slightly shorter flat top and slightly longer section of ladder
line than the G5RV. I've installed two ZS6BKW antennas with a 45 degree
difference in orientation and can switch between either of them. On 20 Meters,
the results is that the 4 major nulls of one antenna can be covered by switching
to the 4 major lobes of the other antenna.  

So, how do they work? Well, in the past 3 years since retiring from VOA and
moving to a new VA QTH, I have worked 275 countries with 100 Watts. I recently
added a borrowed 3 element tribander for most of the last 15 countries worked.
Over 260 countries were worked using  ZS6BKW antennas. With the K3 and its ATU
the ZS6BKW will work well on 80, 40, 20, 17, 12 and 10 Meters. On 160, 30 and
15M, the ZS6BKW does not work well at all, even though the ATU can produce a
match for the K3 on some of those bands.

A ZS6BKW construction note, for one of the antennas I used a common mode RF
choke made up of the 20 turns of the 50 Ohm RG58U coax feed line wound around a
6 inch diameter plastic COSTCO nut container. The second ZS6BKW antenna uses a
choke made of the same type coax but wound on a pair of toroids, as described by
Jim, K9YC on his website. In each case, the choke is installed where the ladder
lead meets the coax and NOT at the shack end of the coax. If you are interested
in the ZS6BKW antenna, check out the articles below. 

http://www.ab4oj.com/dl/sprat_zs6bkw.pdf

http://www.w5ddl.org/files/Zs6bkw_vs_G5rv_20100221b.pdf 

73,
Rich - K1HTV
www.k1htv.us

= = =
 
-Original Message-
From: raro...@comcast.net [mailto:raro...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 2:38 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] G5RV antenna experience on K3

Hi there-- 

Am considering putting up a g5rv antenna and was wondering what experiences K3
users have with this antenna. Is an external tuner necessary? Is internal KAT3
up to the task of taming this wire? 

Any hints will be helpful
--
73 de Dick, ka1oz
Elecraft K3/100
GAP Titan-DX Antenna 

PS...Tried sending via my gmail account, but haven't seen it posted.  I
appologize for any wasted bandwidth.


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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Rick Dettinger]

Probably the most elegant solution is to actually change the physical  
length of the element(s).  Mike, KK5F, does that with jumpers on his  
portable dipole, and SteppIR does it by spooling up the un-wanted  
portion of the element.  There was a design in QST that used air  
pressure to operate relays that accomplished the same thing.  Maybe,  
this could also be done with relays powered by the signal.

73,
Rick  K7MW


>
> A FAR better solution, if we can do it, is resonant antennas for each
> band, well choked.  If you're limited on space that can be done with  
> fan
> dipoles or traps or loading coils.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - G5RV vs ZS6BKW antenna

[Dick Roth]

Thanks for the info, Rich.  It's amazing what one can start with a
question to the folk on this Reflector!  Hams are truly a helpful lot.
With all the input that has been streaming in, I now have a lot to chew
on.

Thanks loads!!
-- 
73 de Dick, ka1oz
Elecraft K3/100
GAP Titan-DX Antenna



On Sat, 2012-03-10 at 09:01 -0500, Rich - K1HTV wrote:
> Dick,
>Instead of the G5RV antenna, consider using a modified version of it, the
> ZS6BKW, with your K3. The ZS6BKW antenna has better impedance characteristics 
> on
> more bands than the G5RV. The K3's ATU matches the antenna on all of the bands
> that it is designed to work on, 80, 40, 20, 17, 12 and 10 meters.  It will 
> also
> work on 6 Meters, but its lowest SWR is at 51 MHz, not very helpful.  The 
> ZS6BKW
> antenna has a slightly shorter flat top and slightly longer section of ladder
> line than the G5RV. I've installed two ZS6BKW antennas with a 45 degree
> difference in orientation and can switch between either of them. On 20 Meters,
> the results is that the 4 major nulls of one antenna can be covered by 
> switching
> to the 4 major lobes of the other antenna.  
> 
> So, how do they work? Well, in the past 3 years since retiring from VOA and
> moving to a new VA QTH, I have worked 275 countries with 100 Watts. I recently
> added a borrowed 3 element tribander for most of the last 15 countries worked.
> Over 260 countries were worked using  ZS6BKW antennas. With the K3 and its ATU
> the ZS6BKW will work well on 80, 40, 20, 17, 12 and 10 Meters. On 160, 30 and
> 15M, the ZS6BKW does not work well at all, even though the ATU can produce a
> match for the K3 on some of those bands.
> 
> A ZS6BKW construction note, for one of the antennas I used a common mode RF
> choke made up of the 20 turns of the 50 Ohm RG58U coax feed line wound around 
> a
> 6 inch diameter plastic COSTCO nut container. The second ZS6BKW antenna uses a
> choke made of the same type coax but wound on a pair of toroids, as described 
> by
> Jim, K9YC on his website. In each case, the choke is installed where the 
> ladder
> lead meets the coax and NOT at the shack end of the coax. If you are 
> interested
> in the ZS6BKW antenna, check out the articles below. 
> 
> http://www.ab4oj.com/dl/sprat_zs6bkw.pdf
> 
> http://www.w5ddl.org/files/Zs6bkw_vs_G5rv_20100221b.pdf 
> 
> 73,
> Rich - K1HTV
> www.k1htv.us
> 
> = = =
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: raro...@comcast.net [mailto:raro...@comcast.net] 
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 2:38 AM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: [Elecraft] G5RV antenna experience on K3
> 
> Hi there-- 
> 
> Am considering putting up a g5rv antenna and was wondering what experiences K3
> users have with this antenna. Is an external tuner necessary? Is internal KAT3
> up to the task of taming this wire? 
> 
> Any hints will be helpful
> --
> 73 de Dick, ka1oz
> Elecraft K3/100
> GAP Titan-DX Antenna 
> 
> PS...Tried sending via my gmail account, but haven't seen it posted.  I
> appologize for any wasted bandwidth.
> 
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] Power SDR Software

[Bruce Beford]

Not sure I understand your question, Mike. TNF (Tracking Notch Filters) are
a new feature incorporated into the latest versions of FlexRadio's PowerSDR.
It is not a gimmick, but a way of notching out local interference that
appears routinely or constantly on the same frequencies at you particular
location.

What's your question?

73,
Bruce, N1RX

> Gimmick, or feature request?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t17ipMS8gAk
>
> 73, Mike NF4L



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[Elecraft] K2 Keying niggle

[jacob chambers]

Cheers;

I have noticed that when keying my K2 with the crystal filter cinched (200 
hz-400) and my audio filter ON in either mode 1 or 2 (the K2 analog CW filter) 
in certain situations I get an annoying pop or "pssst" sound when sending. I 
have serial no. 2676 QRP K2 that has had the keying mod performed. I normally 
use 5 watts with a .12 ms transmit/receive delay. i I built the audio filter to 
spec and it all tested fine. Any ideas on what I could do to mitigate this 
minor annoyance? 

73;
Jacob K4JQV 

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Re: [Elecraft] Good Low Cost Audio to USB Interfaces For Digital Modes

[Ed Muns]

I also have some iMic units which work well on RTTY and while they have
stereo Line In, but they do not have duplex audio that Iain is looking for.


Ed - W0YK
 

> On 3/8/2012 10:26 PM, wb6r...@mac.com wrote:
> > Hi Jim - I've been using a Griffin iMic for years. Reliable. 
> > Inexpensive. FYI.

Jim, K9YC, wrote: 
> Just looked at it.  Looks good, and it might be the same as 
> this one, which W0YK swears by.  He takes them to P40X for 
> his record-breaking RTTY contest efforts. $29.  I just 
> learned about it when I posted the same notes to the NCCC 
> reflector and he responded.
> 
> http://www.byterunner.com/byterunner/product_name=UA580/user-i
> d=/password=/exchange=/exact_match=exact
> 
> Here's Ed response on the NCCC reflector yesterday, including 
> Iain's question to me.
> 
> =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =
> 
> I've been using a no-name USB soundcard with my traveling 
> contest PCs for a couple years now with good results.  I 
> discovered recently that it is also marketed by ByteRunner as 
> their model number is UA580.  It does allow full duplex and 
> has stereo Line Input so it works well for SO2V RTTY too.
> Available from several online vendors besides ByteRunner, and 
> under $30.
> 
> Ed - W0YK
> 
> 
> 
> Iain, N6ML, wrote:
> 
> > I'm curious if either of these support "duplex" operation ...
> > i.e. can you connect a mic to the input, connect the output to the 
> > line-in on the K3, and use them for "live audio" as well as 
> recorded 
> > messages for software DVK? Some (all?) of the cheap USB audio 
> > interfaces I've tried didn't seem to be able to do that - 
> they could 
> > record, and playback, but not loop-through...
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Tim]

Hi All,

What you really need to do is to put the whole tuner inside a calorimeter 
and measure the rate of temperature change to determine the the dissipated 
wattage.

Tim
gm4lmh
 

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Re: [Elecraft] Power SDR Software

[Mike]

Well, I wanted to know if TNF is a gimmick, and if not would it be a reasonable 
(all 
feature requests are reasonable, right?) request to incorporate into the K3.

73, Mike NF4L

On 3/10/2012 10:44 AM, Bruce Beford wrote:
> Not sure I understand your question, Mike. TNF (Tracking Notch Filters) are
> a new feature incorporated into the latest versions of FlexRadio's PowerSDR.
> It is not a gimmick, but a way of notching out local interference that
> appears routinely or constantly on the same frequencies at you particular
> location.
>
> What's your question?
>
> 73,
> Bruce, N1RX
>
>> Gimmick, or feature request?
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t17ipMS8gAk
>>
>> 73, Mike NF4L
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Power SDR Software

[Bruce Beford]

OK, now I understand. I didn't make the connection to the K3.
It's not a gimmick, and I doubt it could be incorporated into the K3
firmware.
73,
Bruce, N1RX


> Well, I wanted to know if TNF is a gimmick, and if not would it be a 
> reasonable (all feature requests are reasonable, right?) request to 
> incorporate into the K3.

> 73, Mike NF4L



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Re: [Elecraft] OT: G5RV's antenna

[Kim Bottles]

I am with Ken on this one. 

I use a 130 foot classic Zepp with 600 ohm ladder line to a balun and then a 
short coax line to the K-3 with internal tuner. It tunes very nicely on all HF 
bands 160 to 10. (Yes, even 160.)

Kim - K7IM

-Original Message-
From: Ken G Kopp [mailto:kengk...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 6:54 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: G5RV's antenna

I have Varney's (G5RV) original article.  The antenna was designed for -only- 
20M .  Since then it's taken on the proverbial "life of it's own" and become 
somewhat of a "cult" antenna, as is the case with the "Carolina Windom".

Why would one start with a perfectly good balanced-line fed Zepp, cobble a 
piece of "special-length" coax onto the end of that balanced line so that the 
antenna becomes something else, and then have to use an antenna tuner to make 
the thing work?

Since the antenna requires a tuner, why not connect the balanced line to a 
balanced tuner ... or one with a balun ... and enjoy all the virtues of a 
classic Zepp?

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP
elecraftcov...@gmail.com

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[Elecraft] K3/KPA500

[Michael Raskin]

I have my K3 connected to my KPA500 with the KPA500-K3 Aux cable.  Is there a 
Config Menu setting that will allow the KPA500 to turn on when I turn on the K3?

Mike, W4UM
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: G5RV's antenna

[Kim Bottles]

OK, I amend my post to say 130 foot doublet.

Kim - K7IM

-Original Message-
From: Ron D'Eau Claire [mailto:r...@cobi.biz] 
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 8:09 PM
To: 'Ken G Kopp'; d...@w3fpr.com
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: G5RV's antenna

The feeder was exactly 1/4 wavelength long so it transformed the very high 
impedance at the end of the radiator to a very low impedance at the rig in the 
Zeppelin, minimizing "RF in the Shack" issues. 

Since the radiator was 1/2 wavelength long, very little current flowed from the 
feeder into the radiator. It was a voltage "loop". That meant that, although 
the other side of the feeder was terminated in an insulator, the currents along 
the feed line were well balanced. Most radiomen of the time considered that the 
leakage current into the insulator closely matched the current into the 
radiator so the balance was very good indeed. 

The next step, coming back to Don's comment, was to connect two Zepps back to 
back for some additional gain. Extending the radiators beyond 1/2 wavelength 
enhanced this effect and, since it was now a center fed antenna, feedline 
imbalance was no longer a danger, hence the popularity of the "extended double 
Zepp".

I am always careful to call my center fed wires a "doublet" to avoid confusion 
but many Hams today incorrectly call any wire fed at the center with open wire 
line a "Zepp". 

Feeding a traditional Zepp only minimizes feed line radiation when the radiator 
is exactly 1/2 wavelength. (The feeder can be any length if you can deal with 
the feed point impedance at the rig end.) However, many Hams have reported 
excellent results with Zepps with not-1/2-wave long radiators. In those cases 
the feed line is also part of the radiating antenna. That can be good when the 
feeder is in the clear and less so if it's not. The same is true of most off 
center fed antennas.

73,  

Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ken G Kopp
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 7:34 PM
To: d...@w3fpr.com
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: G5RV's antenna

Yes Don, I knew when I used the term "classic Zepp" that I was taking a bit of 
liberty with the term.  The original Zepp was indeed end-fed from the cabin of 
a Zepplin.  I've often wondered how long the feeder actually was.
They may have been closer to a simple end-fed wire.

I'd also noted the concept repeated in the J-pole.

We "old ops" have certain advantages ...

73!  Ken

On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> Ken,
>
> I will agree with all until I got to the end of your post - "classic zepp"
> The original (and classic)  Zepp antenna was a 1/2 wave wire fed 
> through a 1/4 wave transmission line connected to the end that was 
> trailed behind lighter-than-air aircraft (Zepplin).  If you look at 
> the J-pole, and turn it horizontally, you will see exactly the same 
> thing - a 1/4 wave transmission line with one side connected to a 1/2
wavelength radiator.
>
> I am not sure how the "Zepp" term became associated with any kind of 
> center fed dipoles, but it has in ham circles, and I find it confusing
> - there is the Center Fed Zepp (2 halfwaves in phase) antenna, and 
> then there is the Extended Center Fed Zepp (5/8 wavelength each side 
> of center), and then there is the "classic Zepp" that is the antenna 
> designed for trailing the aircraft.  So we must be careful to explain 
> which kind of Zepp antenna we are referring to when we write "Zepp"
> There is a lot of difference.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR


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Re: [Elecraft] Good Low Cost Audio to USB Interfaces For Digital Modes

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

I understand that these are duplex cards:
   http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829128010
   http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829270009
   http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829180006

as is this one:
   http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829126101
   http://www.byterunner.com/byterunner/product_name=UA580

Two different designs ... packaged by several vendors.   I know several
users of each card; both have been used with the original microKEYER
as well as MK2R (the version without built-in soundcard) at well known
stations.

This is a new product - again apparently the same device with different
vendors - that claims full duplex playback and recording capability:
   http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829131001
   http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829111005

One needs do only a little research ...

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 3/10/2012 11:32 AM, Ed Muns wrote:
> I also have some iMic units which work well on RTTY and while they have
> stereo Line In, but they do not have duplex audio that Iain is looking for.
>
>
> Ed - W0YK
>
>
>> On 3/8/2012 10:26 PM, wb6r...@mac.com wrote:
>>> Hi Jim - I've been using a Griffin iMic for years. Reliable.
>>> Inexpensive. FYI.
>
> Jim, K9YC, wrote:
>> Just looked at it.  Looks good, and it might be the same as
>> this one, which W0YK swears by.  He takes them to P40X for
>> his record-breaking RTTY contest efforts. $29.  I just
>> learned about it when I posted the same notes to the NCCC
>> reflector and he responded.
>>
>> http://www.byterunner.com/byterunner/product_name=UA580/user-i
>> d=/password=/exchange=/exact_match=exact
>>
>> Here's Ed response on the NCCC reflector yesterday, including
>> Iain's question to me.
>>
>> =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =
>>
>> I've been using a no-name USB soundcard with my traveling
>> contest PCs for a couple years now with good results.  I
>> discovered recently that it is also marketed by ByteRunner as
>> their model number is UA580.  It does allow full duplex and
>> has stereo Line Input so it works well for SO2V RTTY too.
>> Available from several online vendors besides ByteRunner, and
>> under $30.
>>
>> Ed - W0YK
>>
>>
>>
>> Iain, N6ML, wrote:
>>
>>> I'm curious if either of these support "duplex" operation ...
>>> i.e. can you connect a mic to the input, connect the output to the
>>> line-in on the K3, and use them for "live audio" as well as
>> recorded
>>> messages for software DVK? Some (all?) of the cheap USB audio
>>> interfaces I've tried didn't seem to be able to do that -
>> they could
>>> record, and playback, but not loop-through...
>>
>> __
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>
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Re: [Elecraft] K2 Keying niggle

[Don Wilhelm]

Jacob,

Try setting 8R Hold ON.  It sounds like it is set to NOR right now and 
with your extended T-R delay, you are hearing the receiver unmute before 
the delay time is finished.
See the K2 manual page 89.

73,
Don W3FPR


On 3/10/2012 11:20 AM, jacob chambers wrote:
> Cheers;
>
> I have noticed that when keying my K2 with the crystal filter cinched (200 
> hz-400) and my audio filter ON in either mode 1 or 2 (the K2 analog CW 
> filter) in certain situations I get an annoying pop or "pssst" sound when 
> sending. I have serial no. 2676 QRP K2 that has had the keying mod performed. 
> I normally use 5 watts with a .12 ms transmit/receive delay. i I built the 
> audio filter to spec and it all tested fine. Any ideas on what I could do to 
> mitigate this minor annoyance?
>
> 73;
> Jacob K4JQV
>
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[Elecraft] [K3] K3 Fuses

[Mike Rodgers]

Might I suggest if you are going to use fuses, invest in the oversize car 
stereo type. Some are gold plated,available in cartridge and blade type. 
I believe the blade type are available at wal mart. A bigger contact area 
should have less resistance. Remember if you fuse the negative that will double 
resistance and usually only called for in mobile use. 
I would also suspect the power poles and wish they weren't used but many love 
em. 

73
Mike R

Sent from my spy ring

Amateur/Ham Radio KE5GBC
HF & Echolink mobile
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Re: [Elecraft] Power SDR Software

[Larry Phipps]

TNF as implemented in the current PowerSDR will not be available in NaP3 
or PowerSDR/IF because it uses proprietary hardware and driver software. 
Therefore, it won't be available for KX3 or LP-PAN users.

The relevant documentation is explicitly spelled out in the open source 
documents from Flex as I recall. There is nothing to stop a developer 
from creating his own solution to provide that functionality, but I 
doubt that would happen.

73,
Larry N8LP



On 3/10/2012 12:00 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 11:53:51 -0500
> From: Mike
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Power SDR Software
> To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Message-ID:<4f5b871f.70...@nf4l.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Well, I wanted to know if TNF is a gimmick, and if not would it be a 
> reasonable (all
> feature requests are reasonable, right?) request to incorporate into the K3.
>
> 73, Mike NF4L
>
> On 3/10/2012 10:44 AM, Bruce Beford wrote:
>> >  Not sure I understand your question, Mike. TNF (Tracking Notch Filters) 
>> > are
>> >  a new feature incorporated into the latest versions of FlexRadio's 
>> > PowerSDR.
>> >  It is not a gimmick, but a way of notching out local interference that
>> >  appears routinely or constantly on the same frequencies at you particular
>> >  location.
>> >
>> >  What's your question?
>> >
>> >  73,
>> >  Bruce, N1RX
>> >
>>> >>  Gimmick, or feature request?
>>> >>
>>> >>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t17ipMS8gAk
>>> >>
>>> >>  73, Mike NF4L

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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Rick Bates]

I'd put it this way:  Some folks just want to get on the air and operate.
Others take greater joy in knowing they can get the most out of what is
available.  There's room for a variety of operators.

EVERY station is a collection of compromises.  There is no perfect station
or even a perfect portion.  Antennas are part of that compromise, since
available space, height and ground conditions, (no) tree etc. can vary
greatly within a very short distance.  

The only 'perfect' antenna is the isotropic, which is hard to build.  :o)
An example of compromise is the commonly used portable "rubber duck" (AKA
the semi-radiating dummy load).  One can be more/less efficient, but it
works and nothing is perfect.

Keeping that in mind, most do the best they can with what they have.  Both
ends of the operator spectrum (soggy noodle antenna -> every Pico watt out)
make folks happy, so who's to complain?  Some like QRP, some QRO, DX or not,
ragchew or not, some are more technically minded and so on.

While I tend to think it's wise to know WHY you're doing something and
understanding what compromises you're accepting, I understand those that
just want to get on the air and have fun.  If you can afford heating the
room (or hardware) with reasonable safety and you're having fun, have at it.

Rick WA6NHC


-Original Message-
From: David Gilbert

Ham radio being a knowledge-based hobby, some people prefer to 
understand what they're doing.  Apparently others don't seem to care.

Dave   AB7E

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - G5RV vs ZS6BKW antenna

[bodel...@juno.com]

I have also been using the ZS6BKW  with the K3 for several years at my 2nd home 
in the mountains of So Cal. A few Ops in the local radio club (BBARC) are using 
the "BKW" with great results.
It is very easy to construct and works great when the ladder line is trimmed 
properly.
At first I was trying to tune the antenna as you would a standard dipole via 
trimming the radiator conductors. Once I figured out that it is tuned via the 
feed line and got it right,  I was very impressed. It outperforms my 500' plus 
loop on many occasions. Can't wait to try it out on my new KX3 in a couple of 
weeks (I hope :) 
Mike WB6CLZ


-- Original Message --
From: "Rich - K1HTV" 
To: , "'Elecraft Reflector'" 
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 - G5RV vs ZS6BKW antenna
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 09:01:10 -0500

Dick,
  Instead of the G5RV antenna, consider using a modified version of it, the
ZS6BKW, with your K3. The ZS6BKW antenna has better impedance characteristics on
more bands than the G5RV. The K3's ATU matches the antenna on all of the bands
that it is designed to work on, 80, 40, 20, 17, 12 and 10 meters.  It will also
work on 6 Meters, but its lowest SWR is at 51 MHz, not very helpful.  The ZS6BKW
antenna has a slightly shorter flat top and slightly longer section of ladder
line than the G5RV. I've installed two ZS6BKW antennas with a 45 degree
difference in orientation and can switch between either of them. On 20 Meters,
the results is that the 4 major nulls of one antenna can be covered by switching
to the 4 major lobes of the other antenna.  

So, how do they work? Well, in the past 3 years since retiring from VOA and
moving to a new VA QTH, I have worked 275 countries with 100 Watts. I recently
added a borrowed 3 element tribander for most of the last 15 countries worked.
Over 260 countries were worked using  ZS6BKW antennas. With the K3 and its ATU
the ZS6BKW will work well on 80, 40, 20, 17, 12 and 10 Meters. On 160, 30 and
15M, the ZS6BKW does not work well at all, even though the ATU can produce a
match for the K3 on some of those bands.

A ZS6BKW construction note, for one of the antennas I used a common mode RF
choke made up of the 20 turns of the 50 Ohm RG58U coax feed line wound around a
6 inch diameter plastic COSTCO nut container. The second ZS6BKW antenna uses a
choke made of the same type coax but wound on a pair of toroids, as described by
Jim, K9YC on his website. In each case, the choke is installed where the ladder
lead meets the coax and NOT at the shack end of the coax. If you are interested
in the ZS6BKW antenna, check out the articles below. 

http://www.ab4oj.com/dl/sprat_zs6bkw.pdf

http://www.w5ddl.org/files/Zs6bkw_vs_G5rv_20100221b.pdf 

73,
Rich - K1HTV
www.k1htv.us

= = =

-Original Message-
From: raro...@comcast.net [mailto:raro...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 2:38 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] G5RV antenna experience on K3

Hi there-- 

Am considering putting up a g5rv antenna and was wondering what experiences K3
users have with this antenna. Is an external tuner necessary? Is internal KAT3
up to the task of taming this wire? 

Any hints will be helpful
--
73 de Dick, ka1oz
Elecraft K3/100
GAP Titan-DX Antenna 

PS...Tried sending via my gmail account, but haven't seen it posted.  I
appologize for any wasted bandwidth.


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53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4f5b9b0c9ed011d2057dst03vuc
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Well, I don't think you can blame OCF for TVI/RFI.  You can blame radiating
RF for TVI/RFI.  Some of the best improvements in RF antennary were
accompanied by increases in TVI/RFI, and that would include cleaning all
that common mode current off the feedline so it only radiated off the
driven element down toward the horizon like it should be.  BTDT.  Back in
the day of 21 mc TV IF's, just sneezing on fifteen meters would cause TVI.

If one only uses antennas that you don't have to think about, what fun
would that be?  Part of the draw of ham radio is making metal stuff work
like an antenna, in spite of itself.

73, Guy

PS, who doesn't know what "mc" is?

On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 3:27 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 3/9/2012 5:48 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> > OCF antennas, under miscellaneous names, have been working fine, just
> fine,
> > just about as long as radio.
>
> "Working fine" depends on your definition of "the big picture," and your
> ability to diagnose problems. The problem with OCF antennas is COMMON
> MODE FEEDLINE CURRENT, which causes the feedline to receive noise, make
> the shack hot with RF, and radiate RF to the TV and stereoand computer
> in our living room (and our neighbor's living room).   Fifty years ago,
> there was relatively little man made noise to be picked up on the
> feedline of our antennas, the equipment in our living room did not have
> Pin One Problems that turned all of the wiring into receiving and
> transmitting antennas, and the equipment in our neighbors' living room
> was not full of noise generators (other than their TV set's horizontal
> flyback system).
>
> Equally important, we had not LEARNED about common mode current on
> feedlines, and its contribution to these problems.  We lived in blissful
> ignorance.  We called CQ, we got responses, we had fun, but we also had
> TVI!  And when the electronics world changed, introducing Pin One
> Problems, digital equipment, and switching power supplies to create
> noise, COMMON MODE CURRENT on feedlines started biting us in the behind,
> WHETHER WE KNEW IT OR NOT.
>
>  As Guy and I have both noted, we can get away with unbalanced antennas
> if we choke them to death, but we're going to fry chokes if we run power
> unless we use MULTIPLE chokes.  And "choking them to death" means
> multiple turns around ferrite cores (multiple cores and multiple chokes
> for high power).
>
> A FAR better solution, if we can do it, is resonant antennas for each
> band, well choked.  If you're limited on space that can be done with fan
> dipoles or traps or loading coils.  And there is NO MAGIC to parallel
> wire feedline -- there can be just as much common mode current on
> parallel wire line as on coax if the antenna itself is unbalanced.
> Balance is determined by the entire circuit -- the antenna, the
> feedline, and the transmitter (including the tuner), not ONLY the
> feedline. That's why I object to  the words "balanced feedline" -- they
> are are pure fiction.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
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[Elecraft] K2: KDSP2 - Should I or Shouldn't I?

[Jon Perelstein]

The area I live in has gotten much noisier (QRN) over the past few years
and it's killing me.  I know that there are stations I want out there -- I
can kinda sorta hear them but I can't hear them over the noise well enough
to have a QSO.  As much as possible I've checked everything in the house
and the local telephone poles and one of my neighbors was even kind enough
to replace the circulator motor in his Koi pond, but the noise level is
still pretty bad.  I mostly operate digital modes on 80-10 (PSK, RTTY,
Olivia, etc.) with a fair amount of CW and the occasion sideband QSO.

My K2 does not have the KDSP2 (or the KAF2) and the noise level drives me
nuts.  My FT-897 does have DSP, and the problem isn't as bad as on the K2,
but the effectiveness of the 897's DSP seems limited, especially on digital
modes.

Is it worth building a KDSP2 or not?  Those of you who have one what do you
think of it.  I've listened to the sample on the KDSP2 page (
http://www.elecraft.com/KDSP2/kdsp2.htm) and it sounds impressive, but what
are people finding in real life?Recommendations?  Thumbs up or thumbs
down?

Thanks and 73s
Jon
WB2RYV
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[Elecraft] error message

[Dennis Watkins]

At turn on I get "ERR DVR".  Any push button makes it go away and the 
only problem is the DVR isn't working , nor is it "installed".  The DVR 
was factory installed and worked for about 6 mo.  I have installed the 
op system from the k3 web site twice with no "Fix".  I'm out of things 
to try, any suggestions from the reflector bunch??

Dennis  W7JX
K3 # 3901
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

I was investigating tuner losses a few years ago and ran into many of these
same questions. 

A physicist buddy pointed out to me that the normal approach to measure loss
in something like a tuner is to put it in a well-insulated chamber and
measure the rise in temperature over time while transmitting. From there on
can calculate the energy required to cause the temperature rise which can be
used to calculate the number of watts of RF that never make it through the
box. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-

There seems to have been no answer as to how to accurately measure the loss
in a tuner.  
Here is a solution but requires two tuners or at least one calibrated one
that could be used to measure others.
Take first tuner and tune it into the mismatch, say 600 ohms.  Use an
antenna analyzer.
Then remove the load, and connect another tuner to the output of the first
(back- to-back - antenna port on first to antenna port on second tuner.)
Then put a 50 ohm load on the second tuner where the transceiver would be
connected, and tune the second tuner to a match.  It will have the same
settings as the first tuner, complete symmetry.
Then measure the power in the 50 ohm load  to get the loss.

Since both tuners are matching the same load, and the system is symmetrical
the loss contribution by each tuner is half.  Repeat for other types of
loads, and now you have a calibrated tuner to use with any tuner you want to
test.

Rick  K2XT

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[Elecraft] Power Cord Build Results

[Lee Buller]

I built a new power cord to the K3 using automotive fuses20 amp.  I only 
used a 5 foot piece of power cord...#12 gauge.  I also changed the power supply 
out for the heck of it with a Astron SS-30.  Voltage is 14.2 volts to 13.3 
volts 
on key down.  That is just .9 volt drop.  That is a far cry from the 2.8 volt 
drop I was getting with the old power cord.

I am not sure if I like the automotive fusesthe seem to be loose in the 
socket of the holder.  They are in there, but they are easy to put in and put 
out.

I did go to O'Rielly's and AutoZone looking for the fuses and holders.  I did 
not like the quality of the holders.  I ended up going to Radio Shack and 
buying 
them there for about a dollar cheaper each.  I was surprised that RS was 
cheaper!  Go figure?

Feels good to slop solder again.

Lee
K0WA



 In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you 
don't 
have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find 
any 
Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common 
Sense divine?

Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my mind. 
-  John W. (Kansas)

Never interfere with anything that isn't bothering you.
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Re: [Elecraft] K2: KDSP2 - Should I or Shouldn't I?

[Kevin]

I've got one in mine and love it.
The demo's are pretty close to reality here.


On 03/10/2012 12:30 PM, Jon Perelstein wrote:
> The area I live in has gotten much noisier (QRN) over the past few years
> and it's killing me.  I know that there are stations I want out there -- I
> can kinda sorta hear them but I can't hear them over the noise well enough
> to have a QSO.  As much as possible I've checked everything in the house
> and the local telephone poles and one of my neighbors was even kind enough
> to replace the circulator motor in his Koi pond, but the noise level is
> still pretty bad.  I mostly operate digital modes on 80-10 (PSK, RTTY,
> Olivia, etc.) with a fair amount of CW and the occasion sideband QSO.
>
> My K2 does not have the KDSP2 (or the KAF2) and the noise level drives me
> nuts.  My FT-897 does have DSP, and the problem isn't as bad as on the K2,
> but the effectiveness of the 897's DSP seems limited, especially on digital
> modes.
>
> Is it worth building a KDSP2 or not?  Those of you who have one what do you
> think of it.  I've listened to the sample on the KDSP2 page (
> http://www.elecraft.com/KDSP2/kdsp2.htm) and it sounds impressive, but what
> are people finding in real life?Recommendations?  Thumbs up or thumbs
> down?
>
> Thanks and 73s
> Jon
> WB2RYV
>
>


-- 
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H

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[Elecraft] TNFs

[Richard Allen]

They would be very hard to implement in an traditional radio like the k3.  

Maybe something for the kx3, however. 

Richard W5SXD
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Re: [Elecraft] K2: KDSP2 - Should I or Shouldn't I?

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Any attempt to compare my experience with yours depends on the noise, which
is as variable one place to the next as snowflakes.

But my K2 has the noise blanker in it, in addition to the DSP and all my K2
wars with noise would have used the NB if it helped at the time, and I do
not have a researcher's data catalogue on it to separate it out.

Nevertheless, I found the DSP to be a great help to the K2, particularly in
the selectivity department, and I thought adding the DSP and and the A/B
mods to be transformational.

73, Guy.

On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Jon Perelstein wrote:

> The area I live in has gotten much noisier (QRN) over the past few years
> and it's killing me.  I know that there are stations I want out there -- I
> can kinda sorta hear them but I can't hear them over the noise well enough
> to have a QSO.  As much as possible I've checked everything in the house
> and the local telephone poles and one of my neighbors was even kind enough
> to replace the circulator motor in his Koi pond, but the noise level is
> still pretty bad.  I mostly operate digital modes on 80-10 (PSK, RTTY,
> Olivia, etc.) with a fair amount of CW and the occasion sideband QSO.
>
> My K2 does not have the KDSP2 (or the KAF2) and the noise level drives me
> nuts.  My FT-897 does have DSP, and the problem isn't as bad as on the K2,
> but the effectiveness of the 897's DSP seems limited, especially on digital
> modes.
>
> Is it worth building a KDSP2 or not?  Those of you who have one what do you
> think of it.  I've listened to the sample on the KDSP2 page (
> http://www.elecraft.com/KDSP2/kdsp2.htm) and it sounds impressive, but
> what
> are people finding in real life?Recommendations?  Thumbs up or thumbs
> down?
>
> Thanks and 73s
> Jon
> WB2RYV
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Re: [Elecraft] K2: KDSP2 - Should I or Shouldn't I?

[Don Wilhelm]

Jon,

The KDSP2 will reduce the noise - the nr is quite effective.
However, if you operate digital modes, I don't think you should be using 
noise reduction with digital modes, it will reduce your copy.  Many 
digital modes can decode at or below the noise level anyway, and th 
enormal recommendation is to turn nr off when receiving digital.
So consider the cost vs. the amount of time you spend on CW or SSB to 
determine how cost effective it will be for you.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/10/2012 1:30 PM, Jon Perelstein wrote:
> The area I live in has gotten much noisier (QRN) over the past few years
> and it's killing me.  I know that there are stations I want out there -- I
> can kinda sorta hear them but I can't hear them over the noise well enough
> to have a QSO.  As much as possible I've checked everything in the house
> and the local telephone poles and one of my neighbors was even kind enough
> to replace the circulator motor in his Koi pond, but the noise level is
> still pretty bad.  I mostly operate digital modes on 80-10 (PSK, RTTY,
> Olivia, etc.) with a fair amount of CW and the occasion sideband QSO.
>
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[Elecraft] Voltage reading on K2 display low

[Eddy]

Checking the clock time on my K2 (about 10 years old now) I noticed the power 
supply voltage as displayed is 2 volts lower (E 11.8) than the actual power 
supply voltage which is set at 13.4 .

When I built my K2 many years ago I don't remember this being off by so much, 
so is this an indication of a problem inside the K2? It makes full power and 
every function seems to operate normally

thanks for any advice you can offer.

73/ed ~ k6sdw
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[Elecraft] Remoterig and N1MM

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Hello,

 

It´s possible to use the logging program, for example N1MM, to send CW and
SSB messages from the local station or I must use the paddles and MIC
connected to the local remoterig?

 

Thanks,

Jorge

CX6VM/CW5W

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Re: [Elecraft] K3/KPA500

[Jack Brindle]

No.

Jack B, W6FB


On Mar 10, 2012, at 9:16 AM, Michael Raskin wrote:

> I have my K3 connected to my KPA500 with the KPA500-K3 Aux cable.  Is there a 
> Config Menu setting that will allow the KPA500 to turn on when I turn on the 
> K3?
> 
> Mike, W4UM
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Erik Basilier]

As has been clearly demonstrated in this thread, there are multiple methods
of measurement. The one that gets my vote for elegance is the one with two
tuners back-to-back. With respect to the method that measures temperature
rise, taking into account the mass of the tuner, one also needs to take into
account the specific heat capacity of the tuner. One kilo of material x
doesn't heat up at the same rate as one kilo of material y when the same
heating power is applied. The tuner will of course be a mix of materials, so
one would have to measure the rate at which the tuner heats up when heat is
applied through a know heating source rather than TX power. If it is done
that way, one needs to know neither the mass nor the specific heat capacity,
since what one is measuring is essentially the mass times the specific heat
capacity.

73, Erik K7TV

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:47 AM
To: 'Rick Stealey'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

I was investigating tuner losses a few years ago and ran into many of these
same questions. 

A physicist buddy pointed out to me that the normal approach to measure loss
in something like a tuner is to put it in a well-insulated chamber and
measure the rise in temperature over time while transmitting. From there on
can calculate the energy required to cause the temperature rise which can be
used to calculate the number of watts of RF that never make it through the
box. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-

There seems to have been no answer as to how to accurately measure the loss
in a tuner.  
Here is a solution but requires two tuners or at least one calibrated one
that could be used to measure others.
Take first tuner and tune it into the mismatch, say 600 ohms.  Use an
antenna analyzer.
Then remove the load, and connect another tuner to the output of the first
(back- to-back - antenna port on first to antenna port on second tuner.)
Then put a 50 ohm load on the second tuner where the transceiver would be
connected, and tune the second tuner to a match.  It will have the same
settings as the first tuner, complete symmetry.
Then measure the power in the 50 ohm load  to get the loss.

Since both tuners are matching the same load, and the system is symmetrical
the loss contribution by each tuner is half.  Repeat for other types of
loads, and now you have a calibrated tuner to use with any tuner you want to
test.

Rick  K2XT

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Re: [Elecraft] Voltage reading on K2 display low

[Mike K8CN]

Ed,

A 2 V drop sounds excessive - the internal series protective diode in the
positive 12 V supply line does reduce the voltage sensed by the K2's
internal voltmeter, but not by more than 0.5V under normal conditions.

Are you reading the voltage on the K2 display in TX or RX mode?

What is the indicated current draw on the K2 display in each mode?

73,
Mike, K8CN

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View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Voltage-reading-on-K2-display-low-tp7361749p7361804.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] Voltage reading on K2 display low

[Don Wilhelm]

Eddy,

I suggest you investigate with your DMM.
You could have a significant voltage drop at the power cable - if there 
are DC distribution boxes in the path they may be a problem, your 
connectors along the path may not be tight.

What you can do is investigate whether the internal voltmeter is telling 
you the same voltage that is being fed to it.  You have a switch on your 
control board that should be in the "INT" position - that is with the 
switch handle slid completely over to the left with the front of the K2 
facing you.  Measure the voltage between ground and the center pin of 
that switch and compare that reading with the voltage shown on the K2 
display.
If there is a significant difference (less than 5% difference is NOT 
significant), you can try slightly adjusting the values of R9 or R10 
depending on whether the reading is high or low.

The K2 display will always read lower than the power supply voltage 
because there is a small drop across D10 and also F1.  If you install 
the A to B mods, D10 is changed to a liode with a lower voltage drop.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/10/2012 2:49 PM, Eddy wrote:
> Checking the clock time on my K2 (about 10 years old now) I noticed the power 
> supply voltage as displayed is 2 volts lower (E 11.8) than the actual power 
> supply voltage which is set at 13.4 .
>
> When I built my K2 many years ago I don't remember this being off by so much, 
> so is this an indication of a problem inside the K2? It makes full power and 
> every function seems to operate normally
>
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[David Gilbert]

I haven't dug it up , but QST April 1995 pp. 30-34 and QST May 1995 pp. 
33-37 describes how the QST lab does it.

Dave   AB7E



On 3/10/2012 6:17 AM, Rick Stealey wrote:
> There seems to have been no answer as to how to accurately measure the loss 
> in a tuner.
>
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Vic K2VCO]

I've recently been experimenting with tuners. I have a "275 watt" Johnson 
Matchbox (which 
is actually good for more than a kW on CW in most cases) and a huge T network 
that I just 
built with a massive edge-wound rotary inductor and capacitors with air gaps of 
about 3/8" 
(near 10mm). The T network has a DX Engineering "5 kW" rated 1:1 balun on the 
output.

The antenna is an 88-foot dipole fed with 500 ohm open-wire line and some 
450-ohm ladder line.

I can switch between these tuners instantly. On 40 meter received signals I can 
detect 
absolutely no difference in signal strength. The T network is adjusted for the 
least 
possible inductance that gives a 1:1 SWR, and the output capacitor is at 
maximum (300 pf 
air plus 300 pf ceramic padder)..

There is also no difference in noise level. If one of the tuners provided 
better balance, 
one would expect that there would be less noise pickup on the feedline. But I 
don't see this.

One anomalous result: there is a weak unstable carrier that I can hear on the 
Matchbox but 
not on the T network. I have verified that this is not a birdie, but an actual 
signal. It 
could be attributed to feedline pickup -- but wouldn't you expect the matchbox 
to be 
better in this regard? I'm investigating further.

On 3/10/2012 12:31 PM, Erik Basilier wrote:
> As has been clearly demonstrated in this thread, there are multiple methods
> of measurement. The one that gets my vote for elegance is the one with two
> tuners back-to-back. With respect to the method that measures temperature
> rise, taking into account the mass of the tuner, one also needs to take into
> account the specific heat capacity of the tuner. One kilo of material x
> doesn't heat up at the same rate as one kilo of material y when the same
> heating power is applied. The tuner will of course be a mix of materials, so
> one would have to measure the rate at which the tuner heats up when heat is
> applied through a know heating source rather than TX power. If it is done
> that way, one needs to know neither the mass nor the specific heat capacity,
> since what one is measuring is essentially the mass times the specific heat
> capacity.
>
> 73, Erik K7TV
l

-- 
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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Re: [Elecraft] Power SDR Software

[Fred Jensen]

On 3/10/2012 4:58 AM, Mike wrote:
> Gimmick, or feature request?
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t17ipMS8gAk

I couldn't tell much difference, but then I'm about 95% deaf.  Would 
have helped a lot if he'd stopped talking :-)

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

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Re: [Elecraft] Power Cord Questions

[Fred Jensen]

On 3/9/2012 7:29 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> I will differ with Fred - the fuse should be mounted close to the power
> supply.

I thought that's what I said ... if I didn't, I was wrong ... as close 
to the power supply as possible.  Many present era power supplies have 
over-current protection built in, and in those cases, I wouldn't use an 
external fuse at all, just more places for voltage drops.

If you're on a battery [even if float charged], you really must fuse as 
close to the battery as possible, high capacity batteries can deliver an 
incredible amount of energy very very quickly.  If you're in a vehicle, 
both + and - leads should be fused.  The + lead for the obvious, the - 
lead in case the negative battery connection becomes faulty.  In that 
case, the starting current would find its way back to the battery 
through the radio neg lead.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Vic K2VCO]

I just did the following experiment: I coupled a grid-dip oscillator to my feed 
line far 
from the tuners and switching relays.  I put it a few inches from the feedline 
equidistant 
from the conductors. I found that the T network plus DXE balun reduced the 
signal pickup 
by about 15 dB over the Matchbox!

That means that both radiation and noise pickup on the feedline are much less 
with the T 
than with the Matchbox. At the same time I verified that there was no 
detectable 
difference between the strength of received signals coming from the antenna.

This is amazing! It means that the T network and balun is significantly better 
than the 
Matchbox in this important respect.  So much for mythology.

On 3/10/2012 1:11 PM, Vic K2VCO wrote:
> I've recently been experimenting with tuners. I have a "275 watt" Johnson 
> Matchbox 
> (which is actually good for more than a kW on CW in most cases) and a huge T 
> network 
> that I just built with a massive edge-wound rotary inductor and capacitors 
> with air gaps 
> of about 3/8" (near 10mm). The T network has a DX Engineering "5 kW" rated 
> 1:1 balun on 
> the output.
>
> The antenna is an 88-foot dipole fed with 500 ohm open-wire line and some 
> 450-ohm ladder 
> line.
>
> I can switch between these tuners instantly. On 40 meter received signals I 
> can detect 
> absolutely no difference in signal strength. The T network is adjusted for 
> the least 
> possible inductance that gives a 1:1 SWR, and the output capacitor is at 
> maximum (300 pf 
> air plus 300 pf ceramic padder)..
>
> There is also no difference in noise level. If one of the tuners provided 
> better 
> balance, one would expect that there would be less noise pickup on the 
> feedline. But I 
> don't see this.
>
> One anomalous result: there is a weak unstable carrier that I can hear on the 
> Matchbox 
> but not on the T network. I have verified that this is not a birdie, but an 
> actual 
> signal. It could be attributed to feedline pickup -- but wouldn't you expect 
> the 
> matchbox to be better in this regard? I'm investigating further.
>
> -- 
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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Re: [Elecraft] Remoterig and N1MM

[Mitch Wolfson DJØQN]

Hi Jorge,

What you do is pull CAT over the internet using the COM2 port of the 
RemoteRig.

If *not *using K3 Twin (i.e. software control only through the control 
RRC), then this works just by using that software.

If you are using the K3 Twin, you need to change COM1 to mode-6 on the 
control RRC, then you also have CAT duplicated over COM1. You then 
connect your control software to the RRC COM1 and can use that for 
anything as if the rig is local.

73,
Mitch DJ0QN

On 10.03.2012 20:52, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:
> Hello,
>
>
>
> It´s possible to use the logging program, for example N1MM, to send CW and
> SSB messages from the local station or I must use the paddles and MIC
> connected to the local remoterig?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jorge
>
> CX6VM/CW5W
>
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> -- 
> Mitch Wolfson
> DJØQN / K7DX
> Georg-Kerschensteiner-Str. 42, 81829 Muenchen, Germany
> Skype: mitchwo - Home:+49 89 32152700 - Mobile:+49 172 8374436
> Echolink: 3001 - IRLP: 5378
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[Elecraft] For Sale: K2 / 100 S/N:6959

[NQ3RP]

Hi everyone-  Well the time has come to sell my station.  I'm living in an RV
and the wife says it goes. Some I'm going to do 2M/440 until we are off the
road in 5-7 years.  I have a K2/100 with the SSB, I/O, the Elecraft
microphone.  Also included are an Astron 25A power supply with Anderson
Power plugs.  The antenna is a KJ7U 6-160 screwdriver antenna with the whip. 
I've used this radio on QRO, QRP and PSK31 to make hundreds of contacts. 
But alas, I can't work mobile while driving the RV.  My loss - your gain. 
I'm asking $1750 (plus shipping) for the whole station set up.   I'm at - 
motorcyle_jack (at) yahoo.com

--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/For-Sale-K2-100-S-N-6959-tp7361918p7361918.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Ian Kahn - Ham]

Dave,  I wish to disagree with you on this point.  Yes, this is a 
knowledge-based hobby.  However, I learned enough to pass my exams and 
got a wire in the trees so I could get on the air.  I've spent my time 
since then learning.  You have the rest of your life to study and 
learn.  We have no clue how long this sunspot cycle and good propagation 
conditions will last.

Just my two cents' worth.  I'll shut up now.

--Ian

Ian Kahn, KM4IK
Roswell, GA
km4ik@gmail.com
K3 #281, P3 #688


On 3/10/2012 2:18 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
> Ham radio being a knowledge-based hobby, some people prefer to
> understand what they're doing.  Apparently others don't seem to care.
>
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
>
> On 3/9/2012 9:49 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>> So let me say one thing I know about antennas:
>>
>> PUT SOMETHING UP AND GET ON THE AIR.
>>
>> You can get perfect up, and you can get OK up. You an argue about what
>> works better and what works worse. But when the bands are open, you
>> might be able to work DX with a cantenna under your desk. (I've heard
>> stories.)
>>
>> I used an untuned dipole with a LDG tuner to work my first (and only)
>> DXCC back in the last sunspot cycle.
>>
>> So what I'm saying is put something up FIRST and then start the arguing,
>> I mean, discussion.
>>
>> (But then again there are all sorts of aspects to the hobby and if you're
>> here to argue you can if you want.)
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] Power SDR Software

[Mike]

Thanks, Larry.

Mike NF4L

On 3/10/2012 12:50 PM, Larry Phipps wrote:
> TNF as implemented in the current PowerSDR will not be available in NaP3
> or PowerSDR/IF because it uses proprietary hardware and driver software.
> Therefore, it won't be available for KX3 or LP-PAN users.
>
> The relevant documentation is explicitly spelled out in the open source
> documents from Flex as I recall. There is nothing to stop a developer
> from creating his own solution to provide that functionality, but I
> doubt that would happen.
>
> 73,
> Larry N8LP
>
>
>
> On 3/10/2012 12:00 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
>> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 11:53:51 -0500
>> From: Mike
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Power SDR Software
>> To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Message-ID:<4f5b871f.70...@nf4l.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Well, I wanted to know if TNF is a gimmick, and if not would it be a 
>> reasonable (all
>> feature requests are reasonable, right?) request to incorporate into the K3.
>>
>> 73, Mike NF4L
>>
>> On 3/10/2012 10:44 AM, Bruce Beford wrote:
   Not sure I understand your question, Mike. TNF (Tracking Notch Filters) 
 are
   a new feature incorporated into the latest versions of FlexRadio's 
 PowerSDR.
   It is not a gimmick, but a way of notching out local interference that
   appears routinely or constantly on the same frequencies at you particular
   location.

   What's your question?

   73,
   Bruce, N1RX

>>   Gimmick, or feature request?
>>
>>   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t17ipMS8gAk
>>
>>   73, Mike NF4L
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[Elecraft] P3 firmware question

[Gary]

Who is the P3 firmware developer? Is he/she a member of this reflector?

Thanks,
Gary

N6LRV

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Re: [Elecraft] P3 firmware question

[Don Wilhelm]

Gary,

That would be Alan Bloom N1AL, he does monitor this reflector, but he is 
an Elecraft employee who likely works a 40 hour week from Monday through 
Friday.  Give him a weekend of rest and relaxation.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/10/2012 6:41 PM, Gary wrote:
> Who is the P3 firmware developer? Is he/she a member of this reflector?
>
> Thanks,
> Gary
>
> N6LRV
>
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Don Wilhelm]

Vic,

Be aware that loss in the tuner can reduce the signal pickup - I would 
not be so quick to pass judgement that the Matchbox is less efficient 
than the T-network tuner - I know the link coupled tuner (properly used) 
is more efficient.

You may want to double check your test conditions and instrumentation.

73,
Don W3FPR.

On 3/10/2012 4:38 PM, Vic K2VCO wrote:
> I just did the following experiment: I coupled a grid-dip oscillator to my 
> feed line far
> from the tuners and switching relays.  I put it a few inches from the 
> feedline equidistant
> from the conductors. I found that the T network plus DXE balun reduced the 
> signal pickup
> by about 15 dB over the Matchbox!
>
> That means that both radiation and noise pickup on the feedline are much less 
> with the T
> than with the Matchbox. At the same time I verified that there was no 
> detectable
> difference between the strength of received signals coming from the antenna.
>
> This is amazing! It means that the T network and balun is significantly 
> better than the
> Matchbox in this important respect.  So much for mythology.
>
> On 3/10/2012 1:11 PM, Vic K2VCO wrote:
>> I've recently been experimenting with tuners. I have a "275 watt" Johnson 
>> Matchbox
>> (which is actually good for more than a kW on CW in most cases) and a huge T 
>> network
>> that I just built with a massive edge-wound rotary inductor and capacitors 
>> with air gaps
>> of about 3/8" (near 10mm). The T network has a DX Engineering "5 kW" rated 
>> 1:1 balun on
>> the output.
>>
>> The antenna is an 88-foot dipole fed with 500 ohm open-wire line and some 
>> 450-ohm ladder
>> line.
>>
>> I can switch between these tuners instantly. On 40 meter received signals I 
>> can detect
>> absolutely no difference in signal strength. The T network is adjusted for 
>> the least
>> possible inductance that gives a 1:1 SWR, and the output capacitor is at 
>> maximum (300 pf
>> air plus 300 pf ceramic padder)..
>>
>> There is also no difference in noise level. If one of the tuners provided 
>> better
>> balance, one would expect that there would be less noise pickup on the 
>> feedline. But I
>> don't see this.
>>
>> One anomalous result: there is a weak unstable carrier that I can hear on 
>> the Matchbox
>> but not on the T network. I have verified that this is not a birdie, but an 
>> actual
>> signal. It could be attributed to feedline pickup -- but wouldn't you expect 
>> the
>> matchbox to be better in this regard? I'm investigating further.
>>
>> -- 
>> Vic, K2VCO
>> Fresno CA
>> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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[Elecraft] Elecraft SSB net announcement

[Phillip Shepard]

The weekly Elecraft SSB net will meet tomorrow (3/11/12) at 1800Z on 14.3035
MHz +/- QRM. Hopefully the propagation will be better by then.  I will be
net control from western Oregon, and we'll try relays to pull in the
stations that I can't hear.

See you there.

73,

Phil, NS7P

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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Fred Townsend]

Ron, Rick, Erik: There are many reasons why temperature measurements are a
poor way of evaluating a tuner. There is a method of power measure based on
temperature rise. It's called a bolometer.  It only works well if the mass
involved is small. Wiki bolometers if you want the details.

I think there is an even more important reason not to use this approach.
Let's consider the case where the transmitter has a very strong second
harmonic say -10db. If the tuner is doing its job, tuning, not just
matching, the 2nd harmonic will be tuned or filtered out. 10% of the energy
will be lost. What becomes of that energy? In an ideal world that energy
would be reflected into a dummy load, like when you use a circulator. Since
most tuners don't have circulators, part of the energy will be dissipated in
the tuner and part will be reflected back to the transmitter. That energy
that is dissipated in the tuner is a measure of how well, not how poorly,
the tuner is working. BTW in this case measuring SWR at the transmitter will
also suggest the tuner is not doing its job well when it is. 

Now we know good rigs don't have strong harmonics but I think I have
illustrated why measuring heat is not a good measure of performance.

73, Fred, AE6QL

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Erik Basilier
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 12:31 PM
To: 'Ron D'Eau Claire'; 'Rick Stealey'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

As has been clearly demonstrated in this thread, there are multiple methods
of measurement. The one that gets my vote for elegance is the one with two
tuners back-to-back. With respect to the method that measures temperature
rise, taking into account the mass of the tuner, one also needs to take into
account the specific heat capacity of the tuner. One kilo of material x
doesn't heat up at the same rate as one kilo of material y when the same
heating power is applied. The tuner will of course be a mix of materials, so
one would have to measure the rate at which the tuner heats up when heat is
applied through a know heating source rather than TX power. If it is done
that way, one needs to know neither the mass nor the specific heat capacity,
since what one is measuring is essentially the mass times the specific heat
capacity.

73, Erik K7TV

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:47 AM
To: 'Rick Stealey'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

I was investigating tuner losses a few years ago and ran into many of these
same questions. 

A physicist buddy pointed out to me that the normal approach to measure loss
in something like a tuner is to put it in a well-insulated chamber and
measure the rise in temperature over time while transmitting. From there on
can calculate the energy required to cause the temperature rise which can be
used to calculate the number of watts of RF that never make it through the
box. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-

There seems to have been no answer as to how to accurately measure the loss
in a tuner.  
Here is a solution but requires two tuners or at least one calibrated one
that could be used to measure others.
Take first tuner and tune it into the mismatch, say 600 ohms.  Use an
antenna analyzer.
Then remove the load, and connect another tuner to the output of the first
(back- to-back - antenna port on first to antenna port on second tuner.)
Then put a 50 ohm load on the second tuner where the transceiver would be
connected, and tune the second tuner to a match.  It will have the same
settings as the first tuner, complete symmetry.
Then measure the power in the 50 ohm load  to get the loss.

Since both tuners are matching the same load, and the system is symmetrical
the loss contribution by each tuner is half.  Repeat for other types of
loads, and now you have a calibrated tuner to use with any tuner you want to
test.

Rick  K2XT

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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Vic K2VCO]

This is why I checked that real signals received through the antenna were not 
attenuated 
to a detectable degree. I could not tell the difference between the tuners with 
weak 
signals from distant stations.

Reasons that the T network may be as efficient as the Matchbox for this test:

1) In this case the T output capacitor is maximum, which makes it an L network.
2) No switches in the path.
3) Very high-Q inductor in the T network.

On 3/10/2012 4:06 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Vic,
>
> Be aware that loss in the tuner can reduce the signal pickup - I would not be 
> so quick to
> pass judgement that the Matchbox is less efficient than the T-network tuner - 
> I know the
> link coupled tuner (properly used) is more efficient.
>
> You may want to double check your test conditions and instrumentation.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR.
>
> On 3/10/2012 4:38 PM, Vic K2VCO wrote:
>> I just did the following experiment: I coupled a grid-dip oscillator to my 
>> feed line far
>> from the tuners and switching relays. I put it a few inches from the 
>> feedline equidistant
>> from the conductors. I found that the T network plus DXE balun reduced the 
>> signal pickup
>> by about 15 dB over the Matchbox!
>>
>> That means that both radiation and noise pickup on the feedline are much 
>> less with the T
>> than with the Matchbox. At the same time I verified that there was no 
>> detectable
>> difference between the strength of received signals coming from the antenna.
>>
>> This is amazing! It means that the T network and balun is significantly 
>> better than the
>> Matchbox in this important respect. So much for mythology.
>>
>> On 3/10/2012 1:11 PM, Vic K2VCO wrote:
>>> I've recently been experimenting with tuners. I have a "275 watt" Johnson 
>>> Matchbox
>>> (which is actually good for more than a kW on CW in most cases) and a huge 
>>> T network
>>> that I just built with a massive edge-wound rotary inductor and capacitors 
>>> with air gaps
>>> of about 3/8" (near 10mm). The T network has a DX Engineering "5 kW" rated 
>>> 1:1 balun on
>>> the output.
>>>
>>> The antenna is an 88-foot dipole fed with 500 ohm open-wire line and some 
>>> 450-ohm ladder
>>> line.
>>>
>>> I can switch between these tuners instantly. On 40 meter received signals I 
>>> can detect
>>> absolutely no difference in signal strength. The T network is adjusted for 
>>> the least
>>> possible inductance that gives a 1:1 SWR, and the output capacitor is at 
>>> maximum (300 pf
>>> air plus 300 pf ceramic padder)..
>>>
>>> There is also no difference in noise level. If one of the tuners provided 
>>> better
>>> balance, one would expect that there would be less noise pickup on the 
>>> feedline. But I
>>> don't see this.
>>>
>>> One anomalous result: there is a weak unstable carrier that I can hear on 
>>> the Matchbox
>>> but not on the T network. I have verified that this is not a birdie, but an 
>>> actual
>>> signal. It could be attributed to feedline pickup -- but wouldn't you 
>>> expect the
>>> matchbox to be better in this regard? I'm investigating further.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Vic, K2VCO
>>> Fresno CA
>>> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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-- 
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

I went to MIT. I can analyze the crap out of this if I feel like it.

Or I can work DX and ragchew.

Like I said, you use the hobby for what you want and I'm a proponent of
the proverb that says, "Perfect is the enemy of the good."

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, David Gilbert wrote:

>
> Ham radio being a knowledge-based hobby, some people prefer to
> understand what they're doing.  Apparently others don't seem to care.
>
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
>
> On 3/9/2012 9:49 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>> So let me say one thing I know about antennas:
>>
>> PUT SOMETHING UP AND GET ON THE AIR.
>>
>> You can get perfect up, and you can get OK up. You an argue about what
>> works better and what works worse. But when the bands are open, you
>> might be able to work DX with a cantenna under your desk. (I've heard
>> stories.)
>>
>> I used an untuned dipole with a LDG tuner to work my first (and only)
>> DXCC back in the last sunspot cycle.
>>
>> So what I'm saying is put something up FIRST and then start the arguing,
>> I mean, discussion.
>>
>> (But then again there are all sorts of aspects to the hobby and if you're
>> here to argue you can if you want.)
>>
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-- 
Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, Jim Brown wrote:

> And there is NO MAGIC to parallel wire feedline

I think the advantage (not magic) is that you get less loss in ladder
line than you do through the dielectric of coax.

-- 
Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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Re: [Elecraft] K2: KDSP2 - Should I or Shouldn't I?

[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

I bought one used a few years ago and never installed it until I dug my
radio out of a box and put an antennna back up. I played with them in
the past and thought they made things sound funny.

However, I also got a new heat pump that puts all sorts of funny noises
on 15M. I switched on the DSP and it shoved the funny noises into the
noise floor which is higher, but much easier to listen to than the goofy
motor noises.

But I think someone else pointed out that you don't want to use it for
digital modes.

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, Jon Perelstein wrote:

> The area I live in has gotten much noisier (QRN) over the past few years
> and it's killing me.  I know that there are stations I want out there -- I
> can kinda sorta hear them but I can't hear them over the noise well enough
> to have a QSO.  As much as possible I've checked everything in the house
> and the local telephone poles and one of my neighbors was even kind enough
> to replace the circulator motor in his Koi pond, but the noise level is
> still pretty bad.  I mostly operate digital modes on 80-10 (PSK, RTTY,
> Olivia, etc.) with a fair amount of CW and the occasion sideband QSO.
>
> My K2 does not have the KDSP2 (or the KAF2) and the noise level drives me
> nuts.  My FT-897 does have DSP, and the problem isn't as bad as on the K2,
> but the effectiveness of the 897's DSP seems limited, especially on digital
> modes.
>
> Is it worth building a KDSP2 or not?  Those of you who have one what do you
> think of it.  I've listened to the sample on the KDSP2 page (
> http://www.elecraft.com/KDSP2/kdsp2.htm) and it sounds impressive, but what
> are people finding in real life?Recommendations?  Thumbs up or thumbs
> down?
>
> Thanks and 73s
> Jon
> WB2RYV
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-- 
Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Bob Nielsen]

Bolometers work at pretty low (milliwatt) power levels and you would need to 
use an attenuator, which could add some error to the measurement.  Hewlett 
Packard made the HP434A Calorimetric Power Meter, which could measure up to 10 
watts by matching the temperature in a load with that caused by DC power (which 
can be accurately measured).  I often used one in the early 1960s (this was at 
work--they were a bit pricey for ham use).

Bob, N7XY

On Mar 10, 2012, at 4:56 PM, Fred Townsend wrote:

> Ron, Rick, Erik: There are many reasons why temperature measurements are a
> poor way of evaluating a tuner. There is a method of power measure based on
> temperature rise. It's called a bolometer.  It only works well if the mass
> involved is small. Wiki bolometers if you want the details.
> 
> I think there is an even more important reason not to use this approach.
> Let's consider the case where the transmitter has a very strong second
> harmonic say -10db. If the tuner is doing its job, tuning, not just
> matching, the 2nd harmonic will be tuned or filtered out. 10% of the energy
> will be lost. What becomes of that energy? In an ideal world that energy
> would be reflected into a dummy load, like when you use a circulator. Since
> most tuners don't have circulators, part of the energy will be dissipated in
> the tuner and part will be reflected back to the transmitter. That energy
> that is dissipated in the tuner is a measure of how well, not how poorly,
> the tuner is working. BTW in this case measuring SWR at the transmitter will
> also suggest the tuner is not doing its job well when it is. 
> 
> Now we know good rigs don't have strong harmonics but I think I have
> illustrated why measuring heat is not a good measure of performance.
> 
> 73, Fred, AE6QL
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Erik Basilier
> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 12:31 PM
> To: 'Ron D'Eau Claire'; 'Rick Stealey'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner
> 
> As has been clearly demonstrated in this thread, there are multiple methods
> of measurement. The one that gets my vote for elegance is the one with two
> tuners back-to-back. With respect to the method that measures temperature
> rise, taking into account the mass of the tuner, one also needs to take into
> account the specific heat capacity of the tuner. One kilo of material x
> doesn't heat up at the same rate as one kilo of material y when the same
> heating power is applied. The tuner will of course be a mix of materials, so
> one would have to measure the rate at which the tuner heats up when heat is
> applied through a know heating source rather than TX power. If it is done
> that way, one needs to know neither the mass nor the specific heat capacity,
> since what one is measuring is essentially the mass times the specific heat
> capacity.
> 
> 73, Erik K7TV
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:47 AM
> To: 'Rick Stealey'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner
> 
> I was investigating tuner losses a few years ago and ran into many of these
> same questions. 
> 
> A physicist buddy pointed out to me that the normal approach to measure loss
> in something like a tuner is to put it in a well-insulated chamber and
> measure the rise in temperature over time while transmitting. From there on
> can calculate the energy required to cause the temperature rise which can be
> used to calculate the number of watts of RF that never make it through the
> box. 
> 
> 73, Ron AC7AC
> 
> -Original Message-
> 
> There seems to have been no answer as to how to accurately measure the loss
> in a tuner.  
> Here is a solution but requires two tuners or at least one calibrated one
> that could be used to measure others.
> Take first tuner and tune it into the mismatch, say 600 ohms.  Use an
> antenna analyzer.
> Then remove the load, and connect another tuner to the output of the first
> (back- to-back - antenna port on first to antenna port on second tuner.)
> Then put a 50 ohm load on the second tuner where the transceiver would be
> connected, and tune the second tuner to a match.  It will have the same
> settings as the first tuner, complete symmetry.
> Then measure the power in the 50 ohm load  to get the loss.
> 
> Since both tuners are matching the same load, and the system is symmetrical
> the loss contribution by each tuner is half.  Repeat for other types of
> loads, and now you have a calibrated tuner to use with any tuner you want to
> test.
> 
> Rick  K2XT
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas (OT)

[Bob Nielsen]

That reminds me of a couple of sayings:

Good enough is perfect.

There comes a time in any project when you need to shoot the engineers and 
start production.

Bob N7XY

On Mar 10, 2012, at 5:10 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:

> I went to MIT. I can analyze the crap out of this if I feel like it.
> 
> Or I can work DX and ragchew.
> 
> Like I said, you use the hobby for what you want and I'm a proponent of
> the proverb that says, "Perfect is the enemy of the good."
> 
> On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, David Gilbert wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Ham radio being a knowledge-based hobby, some people prefer to
>> understand what they're doing.  Apparently others don't seem to care.
>> 
>> Dave   AB7E
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/9/2012 9:49 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>>> So let me say one thing I know about antennas:
>>> 
>>> PUT SOMETHING UP AND GET ON THE AIR.
>>> 
>>> You can get perfect up, and you can get OK up. You an argue about what
>>> works better and what works worse. But when the bands are open, you
>>> might be able to work DX with a cantenna under your desk. (I've heard
>>> stories.)
>>> 
>>> I used an untuned dipole with a LDG tuner to work my first (and only)
>>> DXCC back in the last sunspot cycle.
>>> 
>>> So what I'm saying is put something up FIRST and then start the arguing,
>>> I mean, discussion.
>>> 
>>> (But then again there are all sorts of aspects to the hobby and if you're
>>> here to argue you can if you want.)
>>> 
>> __
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com
> BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
> __
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_
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Don Wilhelm]

And I went to CIT (Case Institute of Technology) - way back when -  
which was back in the '60s a rival for MIT in the forefront of 
engineering cutting edge technology.  After suffering through "Geunter's 
Green Book"  which was an attempt of an author promoting and refining 
his book advancing his math theories surrounding set theory, I think I 
got a decent math foundation.  That was back in 1959, so conditions have 
changed and the focus has morphed to a software related analysis, I 
remain well entrenched in the hardware approach.   While I can believe 
the software solution, I cannot  devise a hardware parallel, and that is 
my problem.  I have become a "user" of software solutions which include 
SDR.

73.
Don W3FPR

On 3/10/2012 8:10 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
> I went to MIT. I can analyze the crap out of this if I feel like it.
>
> Or I can work DX and ragchew.
>
> Like I said, you use the hobby for what you want and I'm a proponent of
> the proverb that says, "Perfect is the enemy of the good."
>
> On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, David Gilbert wrote:
>
>> Ham radio being a knowledge-based hobby, some people prefer to
>> understand what they're doing.  Apparently others don't seem to care.
>>
>> Dave   AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/9/2012 9:49 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>>> So let me say one thing I know about antennas:
>>>
>>> PUT SOMETHING UP AND GET ON THE AIR.
>>>
>>> You can get perfect up, and you can get OK up. You an argue about what
>>> works better and what works worse. But when the bands are open, you
>>> might be able to work DX with a cantenna under your desk. (I've heard
>>> stories.)
>>>
>>> I used an untuned dipole with a LDG tuner to work my first (and only)
>>> DXCC back in the last sunspot cycle.
>>>
>>> So what I'm saying is put something up FIRST and then start the arguing,
>>> I mean, discussion.
>>>
>>> (But then again there are all sorts of aspects to the hobby and if you're
>>> here to argue you can if you want.)
>>>
>> __
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>>
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Erik Basilier]

So, the Calorimetric HP meter uses the same principle as my suggested
measurement, with the only difference being that HP performs the reference
measurement simultaneously with the target measurement rather than
sequentially.

Erik K7TV

>Hewlett Packard made the HP434A Calorimetric Power Meter, which could
measure up to 10 watts by matching the temperature in a >load with that
caused by DC power (which can be accurately measured).  I often used one in
the early 1960s (this was at work-->they were a bit pricey for ham use).
>
>Bob, N7XY


...
> The tuner 
> will of course be a mix of materials, so one would have to measure the 
> rate at which the tuner heats up when heat is applied through a know 
> heating source rather than TX power. If it is done that way, one needs 
> to know neither the mass nor the specific heat capacity, since what 
> one is measuring is essentially the mass times the specific heat capacity.
> 
> 73, Erik K7TV
> 


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Re: [Elecraft] K2: KDSP2 - Should I or Shouldn't I?

[Bob Nielsen]

The nice thing about the KDSP2 is that you can tailor the settings to do 
different things when required.  I have had good luck reducing atmospheric and 
similar wideband noise, effectively lowering the noise floor (sometimes to the 
point where, in the lack of a received signal,  you can hardly tell if the 
radio is on.  I also have the KNB2, which acts on different noise types than 
the KDSP2.

Bob, N7XY

On Mar 10, 2012, at 5:23 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:

> I bought one used a few years ago and never installed it until I dug my
> radio out of a box and put an antennna back up. I played with them in
> the past and thought they made things sound funny.
> 
> However, I also got a new heat pump that puts all sorts of funny noises
> on 15M. I switched on the DSP and it shoved the funny noises into the
> noise floor which is higher, but much easier to listen to than the goofy
> motor noises.
> 
> But I think someone else pointed out that you don't want to use it for
> digital modes.
> 
> On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, Jon Perelstein wrote:
> 
>> The area I live in has gotten much noisier (QRN) over the past few years
>> and it's killing me.  I know that there are stations I want out there -- I
>> can kinda sorta hear them but I can't hear them over the noise well enough
>> to have a QSO.  As much as possible I've checked everything in the house
>> and the local telephone poles and one of my neighbors was even kind enough
>> to replace the circulator motor in his Koi pond, but the noise level is
>> still pretty bad.  I mostly operate digital modes on 80-10 (PSK, RTTY,
>> Olivia, etc.) with a fair amount of CW and the occasion sideband QSO.
>> 
>> My K2 does not have the KDSP2 (or the KAF2) and the noise level drives me
>> nuts.  My FT-897 does have DSP, and the problem isn't as bad as on the K2,
>> but the effectiveness of the 897's DSP seems limited, especially on digital
>> modes.
>> 
>> Is it worth building a KDSP2 or not?  Those of you who have one what do you
>> think of it.  I've listened to the sample on the KDSP2 page (
>> http://www.elecraft.com/KDSP2/kdsp2.htm) and it sounds impressive, but what
>> are people finding in real life?Recommendations?  Thumbs up or thumbs
>> down?
>> 
>> Thanks and 73s
>> Jon
>> WB2RYV
>> __
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>> 
> 
> -- 
> Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com
> BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Fred Jensen]

OK folks, I am really truly sorry I started this 
tuner-efficiency-by-measuring-its-heat thread.  I apologize.  It was 
sort of an e-nerd joke and I really miscalculated the laugh-factor in 
it, it seems there was none, an unfortunate failing for me ... but too 
common.  Boltzmann's Constant is in my HP48GX calculator, not that I 
actually know or care what to do with it at this point in my life.

It would be hugely difficult to get any sort of accuracy in a 
measurement of the heat lost in a tuner to find its efficiency, I never 
meant it to be real or even close to reality.

Again, I'm sorry to have been joking around on a serious list.  Won't do 
it again.  Please, everyone, use what works, have fun, enjoy the hobby 
with the great E-gear.  My KPA500 is heating the room far more than my 
MFJ989C.  If you can make QSO's, it works.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

On 3/10/2012 4:56 PM, Fred Townsend wrote:
> Ron, Rick, Erik: There are many reasons why temperature measurements are a
> poor way of evaluating a tuner. There is a method of power measure based on
> temperature rise. It's called a bolometer.  It only works well if the mass
> involved is small. Wiki bolometers if you want the details.


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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Bill K9YEQ]

Great humor, Hisashi  Isn't it just so?  So many years, so much
experience, but the operations matter so much more.  With my KX3 I am
hauling out all my old self-made antennas, including a super flex multiband
dipole in a 35 mm camera film can.  Love to play.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Hisashi T Fujinaka
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 7:10 PM
To: David Gilbert
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

I went to MIT. I can analyze the crap out of this if I feel like it.

Or I can work DX and ragchew.

Like I said, you use the hobby for what you want and I'm a proponent of the
proverb that says, "Perfect is the enemy of the good."

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, David Gilbert wrote:

>
> Ham radio being a knowledge-based hobby, some people prefer to 
> understand what they're doing.  Apparently others don't seem to care.
>
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
>
> On 3/9/2012 9:49 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>> So let me say one thing I know about antennas:
>>
>> PUT SOMETHING UP AND GET ON THE AIR.
>>
>> You can get perfect up, and you can get OK up. You an argue about 
>> what works better and what works worse. But when the bands are open, 
>> you might be able to work DX with a cantenna under your desk. (I've 
>> heard
>> stories.)
>>
>> I used an untuned dipole with a LDG tuner to work my first (and only) 
>> DXCC back in the last sunspot cycle.
>>
>> So what I'm saying is put something up FIRST and then start the 
>> arguing, I mean, discussion.
>>
>> (But then again there are all sorts of aspects to the hobby and if 
>> you're here to argue you can if you want.)
>>
> __
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>
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> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Bill K9YEQ]

Don, 

This explains much about your excellent approach to issues.  I started in EE
and changed to Economics in the 60's.  I love electronics but the theories
and dedication to such intricacies bored me to death.  I love to play with
radios, learn what I actually need and leave the rest to those who do best
at the theory and studies.  Building stuff is my love, including PC's with
the software.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 7:40 PM
To: Hisashi T Fujinaka
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

And I went to CIT (Case Institute of Technology) - way back when - which was
back in the '60s a rival for MIT in the forefront of engineering cutting
edge technology.  After suffering through "Geunter's Green Book"  which was
an attempt of an author promoting and refining his book advancing his math
theories surrounding set theory, I think I got a decent math foundation.
That was back in 1959, so conditions have changed and the focus has morphed
to a software related analysis, I 
remain well entrenched in the hardware approach.   While I can believe 
the software solution, I cannot  devise a hardware parallel, and that is my
problem.  I have become a "user" of software solutions which include SDR.

73.
Don W3FPR

On 3/10/2012 8:10 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
> I went to MIT. I can analyze the crap out of this if I feel like it.
>
> Or I can work DX and ragchew.
>
> Like I said, you use the hobby for what you want and I'm a proponent 
> of the proverb that says, "Perfect is the enemy of the good."
>
> On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, David Gilbert wrote:
>
>> Ham radio being a knowledge-based hobby, some people prefer to 
>> understand what they're doing.  Apparently others don't seem to care.
>>
>> Dave   AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/9/2012 9:49 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>>> So let me say one thing I know about antennas:
>>>
>>> PUT SOMETHING UP AND GET ON THE AIR.
>>>
>>> You can get perfect up, and you can get OK up. You an argue about 
>>> what works better and what works worse. But when the bands are open, 
>>> you might be able to work DX with a cantenna under your desk. (I've 
>>> heard
>>> stories.)
>>>
>>> I used an untuned dipole with a LDG tuner to work my first (and 
>>> only) DXCC back in the last sunspot cycle.
>>>
>>> So what I'm saying is put something up FIRST and then start the 
>>> arguing, I mean, discussion.
>>>
>>> (But then again there are all sorts of aspects to the hobby and if 
>>> you're here to argue you can if you want.)
>>>
>> __
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Bill K9YEQ]

Fred,

I would not apologize. I have enjoyed the thread which is about dead anyway.


73,
Bill
K9YEQ


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Fred Jensen
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:17 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

OK folks, I am really truly sorry I started this
tuner-efficiency-by-measuring-its-heat thread.  I apologize.  It was sort of
an e-nerd joke and I really miscalculated the laugh-factor in it, it seems
there was none, an unfortunate failing for me ... but too common.
Boltzmann's Constant is in my HP48GX calculator, not that I actually know or
care what to do with it at this point in my life.

It would be hugely difficult to get any sort of accuracy in a measurement of
the heat lost in a tuner to find its efficiency, I never meant it to be real
or even close to reality.

Again, I'm sorry to have been joking around on a serious list.  Won't do it
again.  Please, everyone, use what works, have fun, enjoy the hobby with the
great E-gear.  My KPA500 is heating the room far more than my MFJ989C.  If
you can make QSO's, it works.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

On 3/10/2012 4:56 PM, Fred Townsend wrote:
> Ron, Rick, Erik: There are many reasons why temperature measurements 
> are a poor way of evaluating a tuner. There is a method of power 
> measure based on temperature rise. It's called a bolometer.  It only 
> works well if the mass involved is small. Wiki bolometers if you want the
details.


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Re: [Elecraft] Power Cord Questions

[Dale Putnam]

The standard, for vehicles, is to connect to the provided binding post, then 
run absolutely no more than 18 inches unfused. This allows the fuse to be 
placed for access. It also allows for shorted wires. 

--...   ...--
Dale - WC7S in Wy
 
  
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Jim Brown]

On 3/10/2012 5:14 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
> I think the advantage (not magic) is that you get less loss in ladder
> line than you do through the dielectric of coax.

FALSE!  For all practical purposes, there is NO dielectric loss in coax 
below about 500 MHz, where it just BEGINS to show up. Virtually all the 
loss in any dry transmission line at HF and VHF is due to simple Ohm's 
Law in the copper (including the increase in resistance due to skin 
effect). It's all I squared R loss.

The advantage of open wire line is solely the result of their higher 
IMPEDANCE, which means that for a given power level, the CURRENT is much 
less.  For the same reason, 75 ohm coax has a bit less loss than 50 ohm 
coax for the same conductor size.  So-called WINDOW line loses this 
advantage when it gets wet, because then it DOES have dielectric loss.

BTW -- when you're analyzing these things, you must consider the heat 
produced in a common mode choke when the antenna has a lot of imbalance. 
An off-center fed antenna has a LOT of imbalance.

73, Jim Brown K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 3/10/2012 5:14 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>> I think the advantage (not magic) is that you get less loss in ladder
>> line than you do through the dielectric of coax.
>
> FALSE!  For all practical purposes, there is NO dielectric loss in coax
> below about 500 MHz, where it just BEGINS to show up. Virtually all the
> loss in any dry transmission line at HF and VHF is due to simple Ohm's
> Law in the copper (including the increase in resistance due to skin
> effect). It's all I squared R loss.
>
> The advantage of open wire line is solely the result of their higher
> IMPEDANCE, which means that for a given power level, the CURRENT is much
> less.  For the same reason, 75 ohm coax has a bit less loss than 50 ohm
> coax for the same conductor size.  So-called WINDOW line loses this
> advantage when it gets wet, because then it DOES have dielectric loss.
>
> BTW -- when you're analyzing these things, you must consider the heat
> produced in a common mode choke when the antenna has a lot of imbalance.
> An off-center fed antenna has a LOT of imbalance.

I think you're wrong here. The high SWRs generated along the feedline
are extremely high voltages (with low currents) and there is significant
loss in the dielectric of the coax. The reason that ladder line is
better is because of the air in the dielectric. The best is the old
school ladder line with the ceramic insulators. There is very little I
squared R loss because there is very low current.

That's why people see better performance with ladder line and think it's
magic.

-- 
Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Fred Townsend]

As one Fred to another it was funny in the heat of the battle so to speak.
It fooled me and perhaps the case hardened too. Well done.
73
Fred, AE6QL

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Fred Jensen
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:17 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

OK folks, I am really truly sorry I started this
tuner-efficiency-by-measuring-its-heat thread.  I apologize.  It was sort of
an e-nerd joke and I really miscalculated the laugh-factor in it, it seems
there was none, an unfortunate failing for me ... but too common.
Boltzmann's Constant is in my HP48GX calculator, not that I actually know or
care what to do with it at this point in my life.

It would be hugely difficult to get any sort of accuracy in a measurement of
the heat lost in a tuner to find its efficiency, I never meant it to be real
or even close to reality.

Again, I'm sorry to have been joking around on a serious list.  Won't do it
again.  Please, everyone, use what works, have fun, enjoy the hobby with the
great E-gear.  My KPA500 is heating the room far more than my MFJ989C.  If
you can make QSO's, it works.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

On 3/10/2012 4:56 PM, Fred Townsend wrote:
> Ron, Rick, Erik: There are many reasons why temperature measurements 
> are a poor way of evaluating a tuner. There is a method of power 
> measure based on temperature rise. It's called a bolometer.  It only 
> works well if the mass involved is small. Wiki bolometers if you want the
details.


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Re: [Elecraft] Emergency Help

[Mark Stennett]

*snicker*

On 03/10/2012 09:42 PM, stephen pearce wrote:
> Hello
>
> I hope my message reaches you well. Kindly observe utmost confidentiality
> with what I'm about to tell you. I don't want some of my other friends to
> know about this. I had an urgent trip to Spain for a business Seminar but
> I'm in a fix right now; I was mugged&  robbed on my way to the hotel. I
> lost my money, bank cards&  mobile phone in the course of the incident. But
> I'm so happy I wasn't harm or hurt. Anyway, I’ve immediately called my bank
> to stop my cards. Will you be able to lend me some cash (about €2500euros).
> I will also appreciate any amount you can afford to lend me. I'll refund
> you as soon as I get back home next weekend.
>
> Regards

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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Gary Ferdinand]

>I think you're wrong here. The high SWRs generated along the feedline
>are extremely high voltages (with low currents) and there is significant
>loss in the dielectric of the coax. The reason that ladder line is
>better is because of the air in the dielectric. The best is the old
>school ladder line with the ceramic insulators. There is very little I
>squared R loss because there is very low current.
>
>That's why people see better performance with ladder line and think it's
>magic.
>

I think in today's parlance many use the term ladder line to mean any flavor
of non-coax, 2 conductor feedline.  I distinguish between ladder line
(insulated twin lead with holes) and open wire line (OWL) no insulating
material other than the occasional spacer.  Ceramic, plastic, etc.  The OWL
does not suffer from the dreaded detuning in the rain nearly to the extent
of ladder line.

73, Gary W2CS


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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Jim Brown]

On 3/10/2012 8:40 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
> I think you're wrong here. 

The math is VERY well known. There's are a couple of excellent technical 
papers about  this in one of the ARRL Antenna Compendiums.  Another 
place to see this is on the Times data sheets for their LMR cables. Look 
below the graph of loss vs frequency, where there is an equation for 
loss as a function of frequency. The first term is resistive loss and 
increases as the square root of frequency, the second is dielectric 
loss, and increases linearly with frequency.  Put the equation in a 
spreadsheet and plot the curve. The square root term is skin effect.

73, Jim Brown K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Jim Brown]

On 3/10/2012 9:05 PM, Gary Ferdinand wrote:
> The OWL does not suffer from the dreaded detuning in the rain nearly to the 
> extent of ladder line.

Right.  And while there is some change in the impedance, the primary 
effect is dielectric loss due to moisture on the "solid" portions of the 
window "frame."

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Emergency Help

[Buddy Brannan]

On Mar 10, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Mark Stennett  wrote:

> *snicker*

*Crackle*

But what I really wanna know is, did the thugs that robbed him also steal his 
K2?
> 
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY



On Mar 10, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Mark Stennett  wrote:

> *snicker*
> 
> On 03/10/2012 09:42 PM, stephen pearce wrote:
>> Hello
>> 
>> I hope my message reaches you well. Kindly observe utmost confidentiality
>> with what I'm about to tell you. I don't want some of my other friends to
>> know about this. I had an urgent trip to Spain for a business Seminar but
>> I'm in a fix right now; I was mugged&  robbed on my way to the hotel. I
>> lost my money, bank cards&  mobile phone in the course of the incident. But
>> I'm so happy I wasn't harm or hurt. Anyway, I’ve immediately called my bank
>> to stop my cards. Will you be able to lend me some cash (about €2500euros).
>> I will also appreciate any amount you can afford to lend me. I'll refund
>> you as soon as I get back home next weekend.
>> 
>> Regards
> 
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 3/10/2012 8:40 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>> I think you're wrong here.
>
> The math is VERY well known. There's are a couple of excellent technical
> papers about  this in one of the ARRL Antenna Compendiums.  Another
> place to see this is on the Times data sheets for their LMR cables. Look
> below the graph of loss vs frequency, where there is an equation for
> loss as a function of frequency. The first term is resistive loss and
> increases as the square root of frequency, the second is dielectric
> loss, and increases linearly with frequency.  Put the equation in a
> spreadsheet and plot the curve. The square root term is skin effect.

Misapplied math is the worst of all. It's not the frequency you need to
worry about, it's the high voltage breakdown.

-- 
Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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Re: [Elecraft] Emergency Help [END of thread]

[Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft]

We have placed the original poster's address in moderate mode.  Apparently his 
email address or pc has been hijacked.

End of this thread. No need to comment further on-list.

73,
Eric
Elecraft list moderator
www.elecraft.com
_..._



On Mar 10, 2012, at 9:25 PM, Buddy Brannan  wrote:

> 
> On Mar 10, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Mark Stennett  wrote:
> 
>> *snicker*
> 
> *Crackle*
> 
> But what I really wanna know is, did the thugs that robbed him also steal his 
> K2?
>> 
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 10, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Mark Stennett  wrote:
> 
>> *snicker*
>> 
>> On 03/10/2012 09:42 PM, stephen pearce wrote:
>>> Hello
>>> 
>>> I hope my message reaches you well. Kindly observe utmost confidentiality
>>> with what I'm about to tell you. I don't want some of my other friends to
>>> know about this. I had an urgent trip to Spain for a business Seminar but
>>> I'm in a fix right now; I was mugged&  robbed on my way to the hotel. I
>>> lost my money, bank cards&  mobile phone in the course of the incident. But
>>> I'm so happy I wasn't harm or hurt. Anyway, I’ve immediately called my bank
>>> to stop my cards. Will you be able to lend me some cash (about €2500euros).
>>> I will also appreciate any amount you can afford to lend me. I'll refund
>>> you as soon as I get back home next weekend.
>>> 
>>> Regards
>> 
>> __
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> 
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

I have a 425 foot run of "window line", specifically Wireman #554 down to
my 160 antenna base.  The "detuning" that is referred to is really a change
in the dielectric:  from PE to PE+water.  That changes the loss (change =
.5 dB at 1.830), but more particularly the velocity factor, which changes
the electrical length and MOVES nodes and nulls.  Here are the particulars
from the line loss calculator in VK1OD's excellent collection of
calculators at http://vk1od.net/calc/tl/tllc.php .

Transmission Line Wireman 554
Code W554
Data source Wireman / N7WS
Frequency 1.830 MHz
Length 425.000 ft
Results
Zo 360.01-j1.74 Ω
Velocity Factor, VF -2 0.928, 1.161
Length 306.76 °, 0.852 λ, 129.540 m
Line Loss (matched) 0.251 dB


Transmission Line Wireman 554 wet
Code W554w
Data source N7WS
Frequency 1.830 MHz
Length 425.000 ft
Results
Zo 344.94+j3.02 Ω
Velocity Factor, VF -2 0.887, 1.271
Length 320.94 °, 0.892 λ, 129.540 m
Line Loss (matched) 0.780 dB

73, Guy.


On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 12:16 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 3/10/2012 9:05 PM, Gary Ferdinand wrote:
> > The OWL does not suffer from the dreaded detuning in the rain nearly to
> the extent of ladder line.
>
> Right.  And while there is some change in the impedance, the primary
> effect is dielectric loss due to moisture on the "solid" portions of the
> window "frame."
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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[Elecraft] Elecraft CW Net Announcement

[kevinr]

Good Evening,
 The sun has been quite active this week.  I have been following the 
news since Paul Harden first sent a message to QRP-L.  Here are two 
links to follow the action:
http://spaceweather.com/
http://iswa.gsfc.nasa.gov/downloads/20120310_202000_anim.tim-den.gif

Today the solar storm has abated but tomorrow we are due for another 
storm.  They are not sure of the severity of it but it may effect 
tomorrow's nets.  We will be able to test propagation just as we always 
do.  I am hoping for good luck with increased signal strength for you all.

Note the time change due to Daylight Savings taking effect.  Only 
the zulu times have changed while the local times remain the same.  This 
allows some continuity for us all.

I have rebuilt and raised my antenna but I am getting ready for 
another snow storm.  Once again it will be mixed with rain and be quite 
heavy.  Hopefully I won't have to repair my antenna again this week.

Please join us tomorrow afternoon and evening.

1) Hail signs  (first letter or two of the suffix of your call)
2) NCS help  (as well as QSP/QNP  help)

Monday z (Sunday 3 PM PDT) 14050 kHz
Monday 0200z (Sunday 5 PM PDT)  7045 kHz

   Stay well,
  Kevin.  KD5ONS
-



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[Elecraft] K3 intermittent low power output

[Dave Johnson]

My K3/100 has developed an intermittent transmit fault. The power
drops to a very low, but not zero, level at any power setting using
either the LP or HP PA.

The symptoms/set up are as follows:

Mode CW
Using the KPA500 with it (not sure that is relevant)
ATU not in circuit
Power is low as displayed on the K3 and on the KPA500

In addition, and not related to the above fault (at least it doesn't
seem to coincide with the low power output), the CMP & ALC metering
display sometimes shows when the meter is set for SWR & Power.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Dave, G4AON
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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas-Now way off Topic

[Pete Michaelis - N8TR]

Don,

When I started work at NASA's Lewis Research Center in the early 60's
we often went to seminars at Case.  Local legend had it that in one of
Dr Green's classes he presented a research problem that he himself
was working on and told the class that anyone solving it would be
awarded a master's degree along with his BS.  Donald E Knuth
(author of the famous "The Art of  Computer Programming" series of books)
was in the class and solved the problem ( and got his BS & MS in 1960).
Did that happen while you were there?  I know that this is way off topic but I
have always been curious if that actually occurred.

73 Pete - N8TR

At 08:40 PM 3/10/2012, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>And I went to CIT (Case Institute of Technology) - way back when -
>which was back in the '60s a rival for MIT in the forefront of
>engineering cutting edge technology.  After suffering through "Geunter's
>Green Book"  which was an attempt of an author promoting and refining
>his book advancing his math theories surrounding set theory, I think I
>got a decent math foundation.
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Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner

[Bob K6UJ]

Very interesting discussions about tuners/loss I didn't understand most of what 
was discussed anyway, hihi.

I have a little tuner history if anyone is interested.
In a letter from Don Wallace W6AM, years ago,  he told me he swore by the 
Johnson Viking Kilowatt tuner.  He had one connected between 
each of his Collins 75A4 receivers and his rhombics.  Not for matching, he had 
the rhombics dialed in very well, he said the big KW Johnson Matchbox 
was a good preselector, said he could peak up a weak signal in the noise enough 
to get improved copy.  He said only the big
Johnson KW tuner with the big coils  would work as a preselector, the smaller 
Johnson Matchbox didn't work as a preselector.  
With our radios today I doubt if the big Johnson would help any.   


Bob
K6UJ



On Mar 10, 2012, at 8:50 PM, Fred Townsend wrote:

> As one Fred to another it was funny in the heat of the battle so to speak.
> It fooled me and perhaps the case hardened too. Well done.
> 73
> Fred, AE6QL
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Fred Jensen
> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:17 PM
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] high-power tuner
> 
> OK folks, I am really truly sorry I started this
> tuner-efficiency-by-measuring-its-heat thread.  I apologize.  It was sort of
> an e-nerd joke and I really miscalculated the laugh-factor in it, it seems
> there was none, an unfortunate failing for me ... but too common.
> Boltzmann's Constant is in my HP48GX calculator, not that I actually know or
> care what to do with it at this point in my life.
> 
> It would be hugely difficult to get any sort of accuracy in a measurement of
> the heat lost in a tuner to find its efficiency, I never meant it to be real
> or even close to reality.
> 
> Again, I'm sorry to have been joking around on a serious list.  Won't do it
> again.  Please, everyone, use what works, have fun, enjoy the hobby with the
> great E-gear.  My KPA500 is heating the room far more than my MFJ989C.  If
> you can make QSO's, it works.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
> - www.cqp.org
> 
> On 3/10/2012 4:56 PM, Fred Townsend wrote:
>> Ron, Rick, Erik: There are many reasons why temperature measurements 
>> are a poor way of evaluating a tuner. There is a method of power 
>> measure based on temperature rise. It's called a bolometer.  It only 
>> works well if the mass involved is small. Wiki bolometers if you want the
> details.
> 
> 
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[Elecraft] Can anyone give me pointers to Sherwood reports?

[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

I'm fantasizing about a new radio and I do know how much I like my K2. A
K3 would be the obvious progression. But a friend told me how much he
liked the Icom 7600 and wow are there some nice bells and whistles on
it.

I want to know tech specs. I trust that I could email Elecraft and get
much better support than any other big rig manufacturer, but have you
seen how pretty the Icom is? :) My biggest complaint about the Elecraft
is the UI and I think the Icom might have a better one (though I only
stared and drooled for a minute or so).

-- 
Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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Re: [Elecraft] Can anyone give me pointers to Sherwood reports?

[Jim Brown]

On 3/10/2012 11:09 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
> But a friend told me how much he liked the Icom 7600 and wow are there some 
> nice bells and whistles on it.

I used one on Field Day a year and a half ago. Yes, it was pretty, but 
it put out enough trash to bother other stations in our group. One of my 
neighbors has a 7600. He's quite active, drives an amp with it, and 
makes quite a mess of phase noise and IMD when he transmits.  I've heard 
a similar report from a member of our club who was on a big DX trip that 
had them because ICOM gave them a lot of radios for free. The K3 is MUCH 
cleaner, and the RX has much better strong signal handling.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Can anyone give me pointers to Sherwood reports?

[Scott Manthe]

Here's a link the the Sherwood specs. The IC-7600 is a decent radio, but 
you can get nicely appointed K3 and you'll have a better radio in all 
respects, excepting the fish-finder.

http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

Notice that the IC-7600 has the 25th ranked receiver in that table. The 
Icom's menu system is easier to navigate, but I just got my K3 three 
days ago, I got it up and running with just a cursory reading of the 
manual. And while the K3 is complex there is a benefit in that you can 
configure it to fit almost any operating style or situation.

The K3 is the best performing rig I've ever owned and while I guess it'd 
be nice if it looked a little more like an FT2000/5000, there is a great 
deal to be said for the styling of the K3 and the relatively small size 
and light weight.

Good luck making the choice that's right for you!

73,
Scott, N9AA



On 3/11/12 3:09 AM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
> I'm fantasizing about a new radio and I do know how much I like my K2. A
> K3 would be the obvious progression. But a friend told me how much he
> liked the Icom 7600 and wow are there some nice bells and whistles on
> it.
>
> I want to know tech specs. I trust that I could email Elecraft and get
> much better support than any other big rig manufacturer, but have you
> seen how pretty the Icom is? :) My biggest complaint about the Elecraft
> is the UI and I think the Icom might have a better one (though I only
> stared and drooled for a minute or so).
>

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Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas

[David Gilbert]

That's not the point.  There are those who enjoy ham radio for what they 
learn from it, and from optimizing their stations.  There are others who 
simply enjoy operating and don't really care much what is behind it.  
Either are perfectly valid (this is a hobby, after all), but you're the 
one who seems to think that the latter has some level of esteem that the 
former does not.  It doesn't.  Some people like to build high 
performance cars but never drive them ... others couldn't care less 
what's under the hood and just want to race.  Nobody is telling you to 
put your mic down and rigorously analyze your antennas ...  don't tell 
the rest of us to quit trying to learn from each other on this forum so 
we can spend more time telling somebody what our weather is like.

Dave  AB7E




On 3/10/2012 6:10 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
> I went to MIT. I can analyze the crap out of this if I feel like it.
>
> Or I can work DX and ragchew.
>
> Like I said, you use the hobby for what you want and I'm a proponent of
> the proverb that says, "Perfect is the enemy of the good."
>
> On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, David Gilbert wrote:
>
>>
>> Ham radio being a knowledge-based hobby, some people prefer to
>> understand what they're doing.  Apparently others don't seem to care.
>>
>> Dave   AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/9/2012 9:49 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>>> So let me say one thing I know about antennas:
>>>
>>> PUT SOMETHING UP AND GET ON THE AIR.
>>>
>>> You can get perfect up, and you can get OK up. You an argue about what
>>> works better and what works worse. But when the bands are open, you
>>> might be able to work DX with a cantenna under your desk. (I've heard
>>> stories.)
>>>
>>> I used an untuned dipole with a LDG tuner to work my first (and only)
>>> DXCC back in the last sunspot cycle.
>>>
>>> So what I'm saying is put something up FIRST and then start the 
>>> arguing,
>>> I mean, discussion.
>>>
>>> (But then again there are all sorts of aspects to the hobby and if 
>>> you're
>>> here to argue you can if you want.)
>>>
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