[EVDL] EVLN: BYD: Put the brains in the factory, not the car
Chinese EV giant BYD says self-driving tech is more valuable for factories than cars Published Tue, Apr 18 202310:07 PM EDT Evelyn Cheng "Fully autonomous driving is 'basically impossible' and the technology would be better applied to manufacturing, according to Chinese battery and electric car company BYD. "'There may be many industries and businesses that invest a lot of money on this [tech], and after investing for many years it will prove it leads nowhere,' Li Yunfei, a spokesperson for BYD, said in Mandarin, translated by CNBC." "As long as the company can buy [factory] automated tech for the same price [as the cost of labor], its value is far greater than being used in a car, Li said. He pointed out how a machine doesn't need to eat or sleep. "It's not yet clear, however, how much investment and tech research is still needed to create robots that can perform the intricate welding and other final assembly tasks." Full story: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/19/chinese-ev-giant-byd-self-driving-tech- better-for-factories-than-cars.html or https://v.gd/9W8TzB David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The future is here, and everything needs to be destroyed. -- Allegheny Shredders = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: "The end of the internal combustion engine" via China
On 30 Apr 2023 at 22:12, Tom Hudson via EV wrote: > The legacy ICE manufacturers are true dinosaurs and will be a textbook > example of how companies with no vision will be extinct. Yep. They seem to be repeating the same nearly-fatal errors that they made with efficient ICEVs in the 1960s and 1970s. Their short-sightedness let Japanese automakers gain a solid foothold in the US. The big three have never been the same. As with high-MPG ICEVs back then, the principal - and profitable - markets for EVs had long been Asia (then Japan, now China) and Western Europe. Then OPEC turned off the oil taps, and auto dealers' lots clogged up with row after row of dusty 13 mpg behemoths that no one wanted. Who could have foreseen it? :-\ The US automakers may again be caught flat-footed by affordable imported EVs, as they were by Datsun 1200 and Toyota Corolla ICEVs back then. But US politics are moving in different directions now, so it's possible that we'll see more anti-EV state and federal government action to protect the old-guard automakers. Already some US states punish and discourage EV owners with high taxes and fees. Canny automakers, old and new, are already directing their EV production to Western Europe and China. The US will get the big, old, fully-amortized, obsolete, inefficient ICEVs that the automakers can't sell elsewhere. If Tesla is smart, they'll move all their manufacturing, if not their management, to cheap-labor Asian and European nations such as China and Hungary. That will further reduce their costs and put them closer to their future main markets. On 1 May 2023 at 4:42, Steves via EV wrote: > I also do not like the personality of Musk, but I do admire the > trajectory of Tesla. I guess need to separate the two entities in my > mind. It may be the only way forward for EVs or even the sedan. It's probably too radical a step for most EV list folks, but one way to get more EV choice and future progress is to give up on the US and move to Europe. :-) David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made. -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Swedish electrified road
Seems to me that we already have a system like this in Europe. It works pretty well. It's called "railroads." But what do I know? - Sweden is building the world's first permanent electrified road for EVs to charge while driving By Roselyne Min o Updated: 09/05/2023 As the EU passed a landmark law last month to require all new cars sold to have zero CO2 emissions from 2035, European countries are rushing to prepare the infrastructure needed for fossil fuel-free mobility. And Sweden is now turning a highway into a permanent electrified road - the first of its kind in the world. On an electric road, cars and trucks can recharge while driving. Experts say dynamic charging allows them to travel longer distances with smaller batteries, and to avoid waiting at charging stations. Full story: https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/05/09/sweden-is-building-the-worlds-first- permanent-electrified-road-for-evs-to-charge-while-dri or https://v.gd/WAG9YW David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = A pioneer wanted to cut a tree down that didn't cost him any- thing, but he never did plant one. He wanted to plow up land that should have been left to grass. He thought it was nature he was living off of, but it was really future generations he was living off of. -- Will Rogers = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging
On 17 May 2023 at 6:52, Josh Landess via EV wrote: > > "...I don't know that you have noticed, but there is quite a bit of > > Tesla negativism" here on EVDL. I fail to understand it. ..." > > I wouldn't say that there's "quite a bit of Tesla negativism" here. Maybe it seems that way to the folks who are devoted Tesla fans and loyalists. There are a few of us who have reservations about Tesla's cars, Tesla, and/or its CEO. There are also a few who seem to have unswerving loyalty to the cars, the company, and the CEO. I think that the two sides probably just about balance out. > As for myself, I have mixed views. They do not balance out to exactly > "equal", but I try to give credit ... I guess I have a summary view on > certain things. I haven't taken a survey and I don't plan to, but my impression is that most people here also fall somewhere in the middle. > In the particular case of the issue under discussion (incentives for > giving up vehicles equipped with the free supercharging), I do think > there is possibly (but not definitely) an element of sleaze to Tesla's > throttling some packs to charge at such slow rates that the owner is > incentivized to get rid of the vehicle. I expect that the diehard Tesla lovers will find a way to justify just about anything that others might call sleaze. Meanwhile, the Tesla skeptics willl say that it confirms what they always suspected. Let's face it - questionable or sleazy business practice is par for the libertarian-capitalist course. Nothing is more important than "shareholder value," ya know. In that way Tesla is pretty much like everybody else. Maybe it's just me, but that seems kind of disappointing from a company that used to talk up how they were going to save the world from ... whatever. Oh, also, "Don't be evil." So it goes. Thanks to Tesla for advancing the state of the art in EVs, and for showing other automakers, drivers, and *governments* what's possible. But NO thanks to Tesla for breaking laws - for example VOC limits - and labor standards. I read that they were also hit with more than 800 environmental lawsuits in Germany. It's amazing what Tesla get away with, usually with, at most, just a little slap on the wrist. NO thanks to Tesla for the way they've often treated their factory workers, expecially women and minorities. Lawsuits there too. And NO thanks to Tesla for control-freaking their cars. As Phil and Sharkey suggest, If they can take away features without asking you, you don't really own your Tesla. Tesla is far from the only game in town for EVs. USians have many more choices now than 10 years ago, and the selection is even wider in Europe. So I think it's a good thing having a Tesla-preference balance here on the list, and talking about it. That way you're well informed when you decide where you're going to spend your hard earned EV bucks. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Fertility is hereditary. If your parents didn't have any children, neither will you. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging
On 17 May 2023 at 22:49, paul dove via EV wrote: > So, what is your alternative. A leaf? They were the only ones that made > a usable vehicle. Why not a Leaf? Early ones had problems in hot climates, and I'm aware of some warranty coverage gripes. Despite that, quite a few people, including members of this list, have owned them and have gotten good service from them. The Nissan Leaf's French cousin, Renault Zoe, was and is an even better EV than the Leaf, with a more durable battery. Renault was also sensible in exclusively leasing the Zoe's battery for the first 8 years. That made the car more affordable, and negated owners' concern about eventual battery replacement. > Now if they had a bunch of competitors this would be reasonable criticism but > nobody else was doing anything. Sorry, it isn't clear to me what this refers to. What criticism do you think is unreasonable? In any case the EV competition situation is much changed from 2012. Today there are many good EVs on offer, especially in Europe and China. There will be still more in the years ahead, now that the EU has banned most sales of new private ICEVs from 2035. If you play nice over there in the US, maybe the EU and Asian EV makers will even export a few of their EVs for you. :-) David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Why Toyota Isn't Rushing to Sell You an Electric
On 19 May 2023 at 0:00, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > They seem to want to go bankrupt. Toyota is like Fiat (at least used to be) - wedded to the ICE. At top management level, they seem to despise the very idea of true EVs. I'm obvously not an insider, but I suspect that Toyota developed their original hybrid design not as a way to prepare for an EV future, but as a way to fend off EVs and support ICEVs. Stellantis is in the EU, where sales of new private ICEVs have been banned by law from 2035. If they want to continue to compete, Stellantis have little choice but to develop and sell EVs. Toyata is in (duh) Japan, and they have an enormous level of influence in the Japanese government. That's probably why Japan's 2035 ICEV "ban" - wait for it - prohibits the sale of "liquid fuel only" vehicles. In other words, as Europe and China aim for true EVs, Japan is casting their lot with Toyota-approved hybrids. I think that in the long run, Toyota (and Honda, and Suzuki, and Mazda, and, well, Japan overall) will regret clinging so tightly to hybrids. China is likely to do to Japan's auto industry in the 2030s what Japan did to the US's in the 1980s. It will darn well serve them right. I don't think that Toyota will actually declare bankruptcy as a result, but they're likely to become a smaller, less prosperous company. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. -- Carl Sagan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Why Toyota Isn't Rushing to Sell You an Electric
On 19 May 2023 at 23:32, Michael Ross via EV wrote: > THere are so many other sources of un-supply that are needed for EVs. > Basically the supply chains are going to be hosed for a good minimum of > 10 years. This is like any other product supply situation. If big business decides that there's money to be made in EVs, they'll solve any supply problems that arise. We may not think that their solutions are ethical and/or sustainable, but they'll find them. If they decide that there's not enough money in EVs, they'll use the alleged supply problems as excuses to not bother. Activist governments can put their thumbs on the scale, pro-EV or anti-EV. Most western EU nations are pushing for EVs, or at least are neutral. Chinese politics notwithstanding, China's government is also promoting EVs. Right now the US government, and some of the states', are slightly pro-EV. I don't expect the federal position to last beyond the next few years, however. . David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Human history more and more becomes a race between education and catastrophe. -- H G Wells = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla wants to buy out your free supercharging
On 22 May 2023 at 21:30, Josh Landess via EV wrote: > Tesla had replaced it > under warranty with a 90 (they don't make 70 any more) that they had > locked to 70. This is one of the things that infuriates me about Tesla. The idea of making a capable product, then artificially and deliberately limiting it with your hand out for more money, seems somehow immoral to me. I wouldn't buy a BMW with their infamous seat warmer subscription, either. I think such corporations deserve a few "moneylenders in the temple" slaps. I hate crippleware software, too. I'm a FLOSS kinda guy. In fact for decades I've wished for an "open source" EV, and/or one offered by a nonprofit company. > Bottom line, I'd be ok to say yes now to upgrading (at about $22k): > - if I could get a refreshed straight answer from Tesla as to how much > it costs (surprisingly difficult) and what I get for the money > - if there was not an occasional concern about trustworthiness of the > automaker (but I suppose this goes for others too) > - if the CEO was not taking so many morally questionable positions. Wow! You must really like your Tesla. For $22,000 you can almost buy an entire other-make brand new EV with zero miles on it. Heck, if you wre in the EU you could get one for less than $22k, but it wouldn't have the range you're used to. And I'd just about bet that $22k would get you a pretty nice lightly-used much newer EV of a different brand. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = It's the desire to be barbaric that makes governments call their enemies barbarians. -- Bertolt Brecht = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] Which sex buys more EVs?
It's not really a surprise, and it tracks with anecdotes I've heard. It's preliminary and possibly sketchy research, but it suggests that men are markedly more likely than women to buy and continue using EVs. https://jalopnik.com/theres-a-massive-gender-gap-when-it-comes-to-buying-and- 1847862805 alternate link: https://v.gd/NoUnbF David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = These are horrible times to be a science-fiction writer. All the dystopian scenarios you can dream up become real before you've even finished the first draft. -- Anonymous = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 13
On 23 May 2023 at 18:35, Lee Hart via EV wrote: > I live in a rural area ... The nearest Superchargers are in > Minneapolis/St.Paul, which is over 70 miles away ... But there are > plenty of free 120v outlets, and a couple of free 240v J1772 charging > stations. Those, and charging at home have met 100% of our needs. > > Since we don't drive very far, our Leaf and my own EV conversions have > been fine for us. Yep. It depends on your travel needs, and what kind of public transportation your area provides. In our case, we also have to consider the size of our garage and the width of the alley leading to it I couldn't tell you for sure where the nearest Supercharger is, though I've seen one about 40km away on Chargemap that I'm pretty sure is a Tesla operation. We have plenty of non-Tesla public charging points, some of them free; but for us, it seldom matters much. When we travel long distances, we usually drive the EV to a major regional train station (45km or 65km), and take the (electric) train from there. So even the cheapest Tesla 3 (42k euros) would be overkill, with way more range than we need. Besides, it's too big. It wouldn't fit. But that's us. Your situation is probably entirely different. Isn't it great that today we have a variety of EVs to choose from? And more are on the way in the next few years. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = When profits rise it's growth; when wages rise it's inflation. -- anonymous = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Chinese EVs are headed for the US
Say goodbye to the US car market as we know it: Cheap Chinese EVs are coming Nora Naughton and Tim Levin Industry watchers say it's only a matter of time before Chinese automakers bring their impressive - and importantly, inexpensive - electric cars to the US. China's EV industry has exploded in recent years. In 2022, US EV sales hit a new high of 800,000, while Chinese buyers snapped up some 5 million electric passenger vehicles. After years unchallenged, Tesla is about to lose its crown as the world's largest EV maker to a Chinese company, BYD. In the 1970s, Japanese car companies like Toyota and Honda swooped in with affordable and fuel-efficient vehicles that knocked US carmakers on their heels ...History may repeat itself. Chinese EV manufacturers can gain a foothold in the US by coming in at a budget price point, analysts said. More: https://www.businessinsider.com/cheap-chinese-electric-cars-will-upend-the- us-vehicle-market-2023-5 shortcut URL: https://v.gd/Wtm66K David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I learned "sesquipedalian" from Mark Twain, who used it as an adjective to describe a long word. Sesquipedalian is a sesqui- pedalian word. In a world where phonetically is not spelled the way it sounds, and Gary Oldman was a young man when Henny Youngman was an old man, it was nice to have a word that actually described itself. -- found on the internet = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Tesla's reputation takes a hit
Yikes. - Tesla plummets 50 spots in a survey of the US's most reputable brands. It's now No. 62 - 30 places below Ford. Tesla's place on the Axios Harris Poll 100 reputation rankings dropped 50 places this year. While Tesla scored high for trajectory and vision, it earned fair scores for trust and character. The company is ranked below other vehicle manufacturers such as Toyota, Honda, BMW, and Ford. The automaker's dip comes as competitor Ford Motor jumped nine spots to land at No. 32 ... Auto company reputation rankings in Top 100 6. Toyota 13. Honda 16. Subaru 24. BMW 32. Ford 34. General Motors 56. Volkswagen 62. Tesla 67. Chrysler (Stellantis) Full story: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-plummets-50-spots-survey-musk-most- reputable-brands-ford-2023-5 shortcut URL: https://v.gd/tkkf1B David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views. This can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering. -- Doctor Who, "The Face of Evil" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla's reputation takes a hit
On 25 May 2023 at 0:47, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> Tesla Model Y is the highest-scoring car tested by Euro NCAP since 2020
Interesting. Congrats to Tesla!
Even more interesting to me is the upcoming Smart #1, which landed a few
NCAP places lower but is significantly more agile at 11" shorter, 8"
narrower, and 400 lb lighter. Its range is 440km from a 62kwh battery.
Even that EV is still bigger than I prefer, though.
Of course everyone has different vehicle needs, but I really like the size
of the Dacia Spring. It's 11" (!) narrower, 40" (!!) shorter, and almost
2300lb (!!!) lighter than a Tesla Y. And it costs about 24,000 euros ()
less. In fact you can buy TWO Springs for the price of one Model Y. ("Take
two, they're small.")
I'm keen to see what happens with the 2025 (or so) VW ID1. I swore off VWs
almost 30 years ago, but if the ID1 lives up to its promise, I might change
my mind.
David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my
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trebuchets I have ever seen.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Chinese EVs are headed for the US
On 25 May 2023 at 7:39, Danny Ames via EV wrote: > Tesla today is the worlds only Exxon Chevron BP Petroleum Mobil oil for > EV car recharging. Except that you can fill up any ICEV at any BP or Chevron or Mobil or Exxon station, if you can stomach trading with those disreputable companies. :-( I guess Tesla is talking about opening their existing US stations to other EVs, but I don't know the status of that move. Here in France I could only charge our non-Tesla EV at 16 (12%) of Tesla's stations. As I see it, Tesla stations are still effectively for Teslas only. So in my view, Tesla charging isn't at all like Exxon, Chevron, Mobil, or BP. It's more like what we would have had in the US if our lawmakers a century ago had had less wisdom, and had let the automobile manufacturers build filling stations exclusively for their cars. Tesla also seems quite US-focused. I don't think that this is their best strategy because IMO US EVs have a hazy future, but who am I to say? EVs have a bright outlook in the EU, but Tesla were relative latecomers here. Until the M3 arrived, Tesla sales in most of the EU were negligible, and Tesla hasn't exactly been hyperactive in building charging stations here. Today France has over 82,000 public EV charging stations operated by various enterprises. Just now I checked the supercharger list for France on Tesla's website. They listed 129 stations. That amounts to only 0.16%. In sum, I don't agree that Tesla charging is anything at all like an international petroleum corporation's filling stations. - As a sidebar, here are the top 5 EVs for 2022 sales in France, along with their battery capacities and current prices (before deducting the government's up-to-5000-euro eco bonus). Make-Model Sales-2022 Battery Price-2023 Peugeot E208 19,220 (52kwh, 36,000 euros) Dacia Spring 18,326 (25kwh, 22,000 euros) Tesla 3 16,754 (60 kwh, 42,00 euros) Renault Megane E-tech 15,580 (62 kwh, 42,000 euros) Fiat 500E 15,163 (24kwh, 30,000 euros; 42 kwh, 34,000 euros) David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Too many people make it their business to make their business things that are none of their business. -- Lolapin = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 14
On 25 May 2023 at 9:51, Tim Economu via EV wrote: > it's for the road trips, and the Tesla network makes that possible, > unlike every other charging network out there. It's impossible to make a road trip in a non-Tesla EV? Really? We unwashed masses still have to use a mobile phone to find a charging point when we're on the road. I suppose that it's less convenient than having the car's navigation system offer it, but I certainly wouldn't call it impossible. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = First Law of Bicycling: No matter which way you ride, it's uphill and against the wind. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Chinese EVs are headed for the US
On 25 May 2023 at 13:29, Lee Hart via EV wrote: > [The affordable EV] part of the market is being ignored; and is > precisely the one that I suspect the Chinese will come to dominate. Thanks to Lawrence for reminding me to look at the NCAP safety rankings. I noticed that of the top 20 cars, six are of Chinese origin. Interesting. On 25 May 2023 at 19:29, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > Now that [Tesla] have their manufacturing process well > established, they very well may be able to make a low cost car, > competitive with the Chinese (and presumably better quality). I'm not a betting person, but if I were, I'd bet that if Tesla ever does build a low cost EV, they'll build it in China. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I am being persecuted You are being attacked He is getting his just desserts -- Found on the net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 16
On 26 May 2023 at 14:40, Tim Economu via EV wrote: > It's not impossible, those are your words. Hmmm. I thought that they were your words. You said. "... the network is not for daily charging for me, it's for the road trips, and the Tesla network makes that possible, unlike every other charging network out there." > Why do you think Ford just signed up for the Tesla charging system? I'm not a Ford exec, so I'm not the person to ask, but I'd guess that it was because it gives their EVs access to more charging points, and they can use that as an advertising point. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. A man who could afford fifty dollar boots had a pair that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap [ten dollar] boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. -- Terry Pratchett, "Men at Arms: The Play" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 14
On 28 May 2023 at 22:11, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: > I drive exclusively electric since several years and have used public > charging exactly 1 time ... All my other charging has been at work or > home, occasionally at a friend's home. Just to say that when truly > adopting the electric driving model, you also leave the "gas station" > model. Outside of the US, much of the world agrees with you. City cars are a thing there. Case in point: the #2 selling EV in France for 2022 has a 225km range and *optional* 30kW DC charging. It also costs 30-50% less than even a small long-range EV. However Teslas, and now most other EVs, try - with varying degress of success - to replace ICEVs for all purposes. That means big, heavy, expensive batteries, which in turn means big, heavy, expensive vehicles, and expensive high-power charging to support using them for long trips. Those big EVs are priced for people with big incomes. In all fairness, so are a lot of ICEVs. Most automakers are telling folks of more limited means to get lost. That makes room for manufacturers who are willing to build nimble, affordable, low- to medium-range EVs. I don't think that'll be Toyota, Nissan, Honda, or even Tesla - it looks like Tesla's "cybertruck" will arrive well before a small Tesla does. Most likely BYD and Geely will do to the Japanese automakers what they did to GM and Ford 40+ years ago. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = When we look at Auschwitz we see the end of the process. The Holocaust did not start with gas chambers. The hatred gradually developed from words, stereotypes and prejudice, through legal exclusion, dehumanisation and escalating violence. -- The Auschwitz Museum = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] charging infrastructure [EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 14]
On 4 Jun 2023 at 18:15, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > Recently I was in France and, talking to my cousins and other people, > they complain of [poorly maintained charging infrastructure]. It may > be slightly better there than US but it's still a large hindrance for > EV acceptance. I can't speak to their reliability since I haven't yet needed them, but there are high power charging points along the major motorways now. Their number grows every month. Sorry to hear about your cousins, and hoping for improvement - but with a good rail network in France, I'm not convinced that public fast charging and really long EV range are as critical as in the US. Actually I think that the US, and Europe to a lesser extent, are on the wrong track with EVs. Not everyone wants to, or can, spend $45-70k for a big, long-range EV that he'll mostly just drive to the grocery or train station. We need small city EVs with modest range and low prices. Around 300-400km of range in an A- or B-segment family hatchback at $20-25k would be perfect for many Europeans. I think that such an EV would even sell decently as a second or third vehicle in the US, where 2-, 3-, and 4-car households are common. But it looks as if those EVs won't come from the major automakers. They're hooked on their big profits from big ICEVs, and are trying to duplicate that with EVs. (I keep hearing that Tesla will introduce a small, economical EV Real Soon Now. I'll believe it when I see it.) BYD, Geely, and others from China and other countries, are likely to step in and fill the small-EV need. The long term effect on the mainstream automakers won't be positive. It'll serve them right. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = My therapist told me that a great way to let go of your anger is to write letters to people you hate and then burn them. I did that, and I feel much better, but I'm wondering - what do I do with the letters? -- Anonymous = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Game over the Tesla NACS wins the day
Interesting. For me, strictly academically so, since neither GM nor Ford now offers an EV that I'd even consider buying. Regrettable too that we can't have a worldwide charging standard, and one not dictated by a particular automaker. That second condition may be just the foul aftertaste left by Magne Charge, rammed through by GM. CCS Type 2 is the EU standard. Even Teslas use it here. Works for me. :-) In China it's GB/T. I think that Japan is still "plugging away" with Chademo. Not that it matters that much, since Japan is even more of an EV laggard than the US, thanks to Toyota's anti-EV influence. Though I read recently that Toyota's new chairman may be less opposed to EVs. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Believe it or not, there are physical structures called stores designed for in-person shopping. Most have signs outside, adver- tising what they sell. Grocery stores sell food; clothing stores sell clothing. Home Depot sells homes and depots, Trader Joe's sells sloppy joes, and Target sells everything but what you wanted. -- Janet Periat = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Game over the Tesla NACS wins the day
On 9 Jun 2023 at 8:04, Tom Keenan via EV wrote: > I´m curious how Tesla will do billing for non-Tesla vehicles. Will the > vehicle be identified by the charging station (as Teslas are at > superchargers?) or will it be via app? Dumb question, maybe, but assuming that the terminal is open to all EVs, why do they need to identify vehicles at all? If the user presents a valid credit card, or maybe an RFID card if you must, then let him charge. Credit cards work just fine for gasoline filling stations. What am I missing here? > I also wonder if Tesla will disallow some vehicles (or certain models) > from charging on the supercharger network if something were to occur, > such as... a dispute with the other manufacturer? Yeah, this. Musk scares me. I can totally see him doing something like this, even if it means losing revenue. He seems to get weirder and more unpredictable by the day. Watching him flush ~$30 billion in value while making Twitter into his own personal playground was quite eye--opening. I really wonder if he's starting to lose it, maybe partly from overwork. There'll be adapters to CCS-charge those new NACS Fords and GMs - right? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Those who would repeat the past must control the teaching of history. -- Frank Herbert, "Dune" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Let's fix Electrify America's Charging Stations
On 10 Jun 2023 at 8:57, Mark E. Hanson via EV wrote: > better traveling cross country with a 200KW 15 minute charge rate > vs the Bolt 50KW 1 hour charge rate with iffy Electrify America fast > chargers, more so in the south Georgia-Florida than in northern pre-EV > states like Va, Md, PA, NJ (been my experience). I don't know about the US, but I've heard that in France the newest motorway CCS charging stops are knocking out 350kW for the EVs that can absorb it. I guess some drivers need that much power to juice up those bloaty amp-hog SUV EVs that the automakers everywhere are pushing now. PS - Shame that the US has such a hopeless rail system and no will to fix it. It'd be even BETTER traveling across the country on the train, if you had a decent high speed rail system. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If you made a column of things you're pretty sure you know, and then made another column of how you know those things, most of that column is like: "Some guy told me." It's just clickbait and hearsay. Goes into the head, locks onto a feeling, you're like: "That sounds good. I'm gonna tell other people that." And that's how brand marketing works, and also fascism, we're finding. -- Marc Maron = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] Peanut EV (Citroen Ami)
I was chatting with a gentleman here Thursday night, and he told me that he's rather taken with the cacahuète. He's thinking about getting one to supplement his big, awkward Peugeot diesel van. Say what? Say "Cacahuète." Someone round here has a Citroën Ami city EV. I see it parked at the grocery store now and then, but haven't had a chance to talk to the owner. I don't think it came from the factory this way, but it has banners saying "cacahuète" (peanut) across the top of the windshield and backlight. The Ami is a 21st century Citicar. It's much more evolved and has more creature comforts, but it's otherwise so similar that you'd think that the Ami's designer had driven a C-car. Length: Ami, 241cm; Citicar, 244cm Width: Ami, 139cm; Citicar, 140cm Height: Ami, 152cm; Citicar, 152cm Weight: Ami, 485kg, Citicar, 590kg Drive: Ami, 8hp; Citicar (late), 6hp Battery: Ami, 5.5kWh, Citicar (late), 5.4kWh Voltage: Ami, 48v; Citicar (late), 48v Range: Ami, 75km ; Citicar (late, claimed) 65km Top speed: Ami, 45 km/h; Citicar, 60 km/h Price: Ami, 6,000 eur ($6,600); Citicar, $17,150-19,500 (1975/1980, adjusted for inflation) In France Ami falls into the category of license-free vehicles, so 14 year olds and people who've lost their licenses for drunk driving are allowed to drive them. Too bad it's not offered in the US. It would be a fine replacement for the golf cars that some folks drive round US retirement communities. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Many [Americans] are superstitious ... 42% believe in ghosts, 65% believe in karma ... and 22% contend that climate change is a hoax and that no action need be taken to combat it, which means that even more Americans may come to believe in karma in the future. -- Colette Brooks = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Game over the Tesla NACS wins the day
On 10 Jun 2023 at 20:12, Bill Dube via EV wrote: > They want to gather data. It has serious value. And I don't want to give it to them. I'm paying them to charge. I don't owe them anything else. The gas pump nozzle tells the petroleum company nothing about me and my ICEV (or would if I still had an ICEV). That's what I'd prefer for my EV. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = This raises a number of questions, such as "what's actually wrong with people?," and "is this legal in Spain?" -- Found on the net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Vroom, vroom oops
I'm speechless, and you know that doesn't happen often. https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/15/23762020/electric-ev-manual-transmission- fake-noise-toyota-lexus or https://v.gd/yzYmkI David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = First they came for the journalists. We don't know what happened after that. -- Unknown = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] White House welcomes Tesla to take advantage of federal dollars for chargers
On 20 Jun 2023 at 14:34, Jay Summet via EV wrote: > My understanding is that the J1772 plug/standard and CSS standards are > the "official" standards for the United States, developed by SAE with > wide-spread industry participation Unfortunately only US and Japanese reps were at the table, nobody from Europe or China. So it goes. More recent EV list folks may not remember the collective sigh of relief here when J1772 became official. GM had rammed through its inductive "Magne Charge" paddle system in the 1990s as J1773, generating - shall we say - concern from a fair number of list subscribers and non-GM EV business people. We can thank CARB for insisting on a hard contact system in the early 2000s. The first implementation was the Avcon connector. It was used on the rather interesting and ill-fated Honda EV Plus, and a few other early EVs. The standard was revised to the current round style around 2009. A version of this was used for a while in Europe, designated Type 1. Some older public charging stations there still have Type 1 connections but it is being phased out. The current CCS2 standard supports up to 350kW DC (hello Ionity). David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Some people ask, "Why?" Others ask, "Why not?" Then later they say, "Oh." -- Found on the Net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] White House welcomes Tesla to take advantage of federal dollars for chargers
On 21 Jun 2023 at 10:37, Lee Hart via EV wrote: > There won't be a "true" standard until someone gains monopoly control > and drives out everyone else. GM tried that with Magne Charge inductive 30 years ago. Tesla seems to be angling for it now, at least in the US. > there is no enforcement mechanism. That's often the case in the US. Let the sacred "free market" sort it out! However, standards can be "adopted" and granted the force of law. This has long been the case with the NEC, which is almost always incorporated by reference in local US building codes. As for J1772, I'm pretty sure that CARB required compliance on all EVs sold in California. This would have been from the mid-2000s. In any case the requirement was in place in time for the Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf to go on sale. I guess that even Tesla complied, though it was through an adapter, so perhaps grudgingly. :-\ > The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose > from. (anonymous) :-) To give credit where due, I think that Andrew S Tanenbaum originated that gem. At any rate, the Unix Fortune database attributed it to him by the mid 1980s. It's from Computer Networks. You'll find it on page 702 of the fifth edition, in a discussion of audio compression. What he actually wrote was "Is that clear now? The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. And if you do not like any of them, just wait a year or two." In the same volume we also find, attributed to Paul Mockapetris: Q: What do you get when you cross a mobster with an international standard? A: Someone who makes you an offer you can't understand. One last word on standards: https://xkcd.com/927/ David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The metaverse as envisioned by the tech giants is not some promising new frontier for humanity. It's just another place to spend money on things. --Keza MacDonald = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 128, Issue 17
On 21 Jun 2023 at 11:37, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > The car can also log data from the supercharger and cache it for later > upload when the car gets back into cell range. This is what I find unsettling about Teslas. Actually all cars do something similar now but it could be said that Tesla was a leader in making vehicles that set fire to your privacy. Back when the Model S was new the New York Time (I think it was) published a hit piece on it. Using the car's spy computer, Musk revealed that the tester / writer had driven in circles in a parking lot to deliberately drain the battery. A lot of folks on this list were jubilant. I found it seriously unsettling that a Tesla would log that much information about where the driver was, when, how he drove, and much more. More recently it emerged that Tesla employees were passing round images taken by Tesla cameras: https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sensitive-images- recorded-by-customer-cars-2023-04-06/ or https://v.gd/l23Ra9 You can't call that anything but voyeurism. Your car knows a LOT about you, and it rats you out to the company that made it. This has been used to prosecute people. The case that sticks in my mind (though it's not an EV) took place a few years ago in the UK. A person was convicted of murder on the evidence from his car's computer. He had parked the car in the area where a body was found. The car had logged - and told the server - that he'd also opened and closed the boot (trunk). Now you might say "Well, sure. He was a bad guy. He should have been busted." And that might be true, though the car log is purely circumstantial evidence. But there are many less legitimate things that people with authority can do with such data. I don't know about you, but I don't trust them to not abuse it. Maybe you're also thinking, "They can look at everything I do; I don't care. My life is boring. I have nothing to hide." Edward Snowden once said, "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different from saying that you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." Sorry for the somewhat off topic rant. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I see a set of solutions but I don't know what problems they exist to solve other than "How can we use these to absorb all this spare money that's washing around?" -- Brian Eno on Cryptocurrency and NFTs = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 128, Issue 17
On 21 Jun 2023 at 14:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > the experience at a Tesla supercharger with Magic dock ... "Most are $0.49/kWh ... Idle fees, which are charged if the car is left alone at the charger after being fully charged, are $1.00/minute." The Kia EV6, tested in the article, is similar in size to their Sportage. Tesla has said for years that they're promoting EV use as a public good. Are they? Current US average gasoline price $3.58/gallon At 28mpg (Kia Sportage ICEV), fuel cost per mile = $0.128 At 43mpg (Kia Sportage Hybrid), fuel cost per mile = $0.083 At 29kWh / 100mi (Kia EV6), electricity cost per mile = $0.142 Hmmm. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Research (noun): Searching the internet until you find a source that agrees with what you already believed. -- Anonymous = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tires
On 21 Jun 2023 at 18:05, Lee Hart via EV wrote: > I'm finding it difficult to find any 13" tires You might try here: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/sizes/results.jsp?diameter=13 I see Vredestein 145/13s and Kumho 155/13s. No clue about their rolling resistance. Don't bother with the homepage. It's been dumbed down and thinks that it knows better than you what you need. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Imagine if workers hired consultants and "compensation committees," consisting of their peers at other companies, to recommend how much they should be paid. The result would be -- well, we know what it would be, because that's what CEOs do. -- Matthew Stewart = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 128, Issue 17
On 21 Jun 2023 at 21:11, Jay Summet via EV wrote: > Ignoring the hybrid fuel cost red hearing (as the hybrid won't get > 43mgh on the freeway, Sportage Hybrid: EPA rating: 42 city, 44 highway, 43 combined. I used the EPA ratings for the EV6, too. I don't see or smell any herrings here, either red or blue. > 0.12c per mile vs 0.14c per mile is so close that most American's > won't care about the difference. Again, it's not 12 (actually almost 13) cents vs 14 cents, it's 8 cents vs 14 cents. That's a much larger difference. > it's not polluting at the tailpipe Believe it or not, this isn't a high priority for the average vehicle owner. I wish it were, but it just isn't. Look, our Kia buyer has already paid 75% more for the EV6 than he would have for a similar Sportage hybrid ($51,400 vs $28,815). So now he should also pay 75% more for his fuel on a road trip?: Really? > still seems like a reasonable price for the public good. Some folks will pay more for the sake of the public good. That's altruism. I like it. But a lot won't. Those latter people need a little nudge to do the right thing. Basically, you have to bribe them. I don't see any such nudges coming from Tesla, that's for sure. Not at those kind of charging costs. Obviously Musk has seen the other kind of green and decided that he likes that kind better. Nothing wrong with him making a profit, but I'd like to see him cut with the "we're saving the world with EVs" hypocrisy already. Google at least had the decency to bury "don't be evil" when they went over to the dark side. How about Tesla? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I distrust people who know well what God wants them to do, because I notice that it always coincides with their own desires. -- Susan B Anthony = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 128, Issue 17
On 22 Jun 2023 at 13:27, EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote: > Since the EVListLackey ?? didn't figure home charging, where a vast > number of EV owners charge, I thought I try and see what the cost is > with my Eleco here in Tucson TEP ... So my cost per mile was $0.06 Sorry I didn't look at the cost to home charge that Kia EV6. It would depend on the utility of course. Your per-mile cost analysis was interesting. Maybe others can chime in with their costs. BTW, if you don't mine my asking, what Tesla model are you driving? I computed our costs for the Renault Zoe: Public charging on Ionity network (fairly expensive): Ionity DC (<= 350kW), 0.69 euro / kWh : 0.10 euro / km (US$0.175 / mile) Ionity AC (<= 22kW), 0.39 euro / kWh : 0.057 euro / km (US$0.10 / mile) Home AC (<= 7.2kW), 0.2142 euro / kWh : 0.03 euro / km (US$0.054 / mile) For comparison, a Renault Clio hybrid, a similar car that uses 4.3l/100km, would cost 0.085 euro/km with fuel at 1.98 euro/litre. Maybe others here would like to post their per-mile (or per-km) costs. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The Flat Earth Society has members all around the globe. -- Twitter user Flat Earth Society = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 128, Issue 17
On 23 Jun 2023 at 12:46, Rod Hower via EV wrote: > I have a 2014 Chevy Volt that runs 98% of the time on electric only.I drive > 21 miles to work and charge at the Kent Central Parking deck using > ChargePoint with a rate of 0.1 kWhr and I typically use 7 kWhr driving to > work in the spring, summer and fall, so $0.7 per day.At home I charge on 240V > and the cost is $0.13, so $0.91.Averaging 20 work days and ignoring the > weekend driving it comes out to $32.2 per month for 840 miles. About > $0.038/mile. Very interesting that the Chargepoint electricity (10 cents / kWh) is actually cheaper than your home electricity (13 cents / kWh). Bravo for Kent and Chargepoint. If I understand you right, and did the math right, it's 3.3 cents ($0.033) per mile charging at work on Chargepoint, and 4.3 cents ($0.043) per mile charging at home. That seems pretty reasonable. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn up the intelligence. There's a knob called "brightness," but it doesn't work. -- Gallagher = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 128, Issue 17
On 23 Jun 2023 at 10:18, Jay Summet via EV wrote: > The cost is subsidized by my local city, a local employer, etc... So it > would be perfectly feasable to "drive for free" if I was willing to > drive a few miles and wait to charge. That's what Margaret did when we first got the Zoe. We didn't have an EVSE yet because we had to have the prehistoric electrical panel replaced and the service upgraded first. The granny cord that came with the car worked, but it was slw. Normally she'd walk or bike the 2km to the grocery, but when the car got below 40% she drove there and charged for free while she bought groceries. With a 22kW AC charge on a 52kWh battery, all she had to do was spend 45m to an hour shopping and the car would be at 80% or better. I think she could probably spend that much time just picking through the short-date cut-price section. :-) David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Finnegans Wake is the best example of modernism disappearing up its own fundament. -- JG Ballard = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference
On 24 Jun 2023 at 10:15, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > I thought by replying maybe it was going back to the entire group. Sorry. It's supposed to. The reply-to in message headers is the list address, ev@lists.evdl.org. AFAIK Yahoo has always respected the reply-to, but they've made some changes (ostensibly for security) in recent years, so who knows. If in doubt select "reply to all" (if available) and that should do it. > The one cell tower that I use to test modifications is about one mile > from my house and it does not affect the car until i am basically on the > street right next to it, say 100 feet from the tower base. I forgot to > also mention I have a friend who is a pilot for the airlines a I'm not and engineer, but it seems to me that if the disruption always happens hear that specific tower location, but not reliably near any other mobile phone towers, it could be the mobile radiation - but it could also be something else in the area blasting out RF hash. If it occurs at many or most towers then that seems more definitive. Then you have to figure out what in your installation is acting as an antenna and how to make it stop doing so. When did the problem start? A possibly ignorance-prompted thought: you might try leaving your mobile phone at home while driving and see if that makes any difference. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = It will always be one of the best jokes of democracy that it gives its deadly enemies the means to destroy it. -- Joseph Goebbels = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.
I'm not an expert or engineer, but I suspect that we're about at the stage where it would be possible to build an EV capable of a few dozen miles of daily travel, using solely sunlight from its own PV. It might even be a bit more civilized and comfortable than the solar challenge racers. In fact, a few such prototypes have been built. The question is, could you afford it? High efficiency PV is *expensive* and is apt to be for quite a while yet. And if you were a multi-millionaire or billionaire and could afford it, would you want a radically different-looking and different-acting vehicle that didn't have a boulevard ride and neck-snapping acceleration? Would you be willing to accept the other limitations? You couldn't park it in the garage - a likely show stopper for a car that would cost well into 6 or even 7 figures - or in the shade. You couldn't spend much time driving in the rain, or on cloudy days, or on city streets shaded by tall buildings. Again - I don't think it's impossible, just not very practical, and certainly not practical for normal middle-class folks. I think that instead of wasting our research time and resources on developing bragging-rights toys for the rich and famous, we should concentrate on promoting things that significant numbers of normal people CAN do, such as 1. Getting them to adopt EVs 2. Helping them put PV on their own homes That means we need to stop letting legislators pass anti-EV laws, such as EV/hybrid license surtaxes. We need them to instead pass laws providing EV incentives, and forcing the utilities to quit making grid-tie PV unaffordable. Unfortunately so far voters don't seem to give much thought to those matters when they go to the polls. That probably includes some folks right on this list. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people, "I offer you a good time," Hitler has said to them, "I offer you struggle, danger and death." As a result, a whole nation flings itself at his feet. -- George Orwell = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.
On 9 Jul 2023 at 20:14, Alan Arrison via EV wrote: > There is a reason nobody is using wheel motors on highway capable vehicles. It does seem that many EV developers veer onto that road. If memory serves, that was the original proposal for the Mitsubishi Imiev. Eventually they abandon the idea after wasting significant time and money. Do you suppose that they think "Aha! I'll use wheel motors!" because wheel motors work well for e-bikes? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = To fascists, satire is more dangerous than bullets. They're always humorless, so they have no defense against laughter and derision. -- Anonymous = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] Be nice to your listserver
No, that's not me. I mean the software that makes the list run. Please don't put extra addresses in the TO and/or CC fields! Please address posts only to ev@lists.evdl.org Please don't CC other people or other lists. If you do, the listserver will hold your message for me to check. I won't tell it to release your message if it contains private (non-EV list) email addresses. I don't think that those non-list folks would appreciate having their addresses revealed to over 600 strangers. I know I wouldn't. Otherwise, I'll tell the listserver to go for it, but your message will be delayed. So, again, please address your posts ONLY to e...@lists.evdl org Thank you. Now back to your regularly scheduled EV discussion. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Blow up your TV, throw away your paper Move to the country, build you a home Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches Try'n' find Jesus on your own. -- John Prine, "Spanish Pipedream" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] E-Bike for sale CHEAP - NE Ohio
I'm offeriung my Ezee Quando folding E-bike for sale. My price is only $50. That's less than 10% what I paid for it used in 2010. Yes, it works! I'm just pricing it cheaply to move it out quickly. Here's a product description: https://www.urbanscooters.com/products/ezee-quando-electric-folding-bike This is an older bike, from 2006. It's very well made, much better built than the no-name E-bikes from Ebay and Amazon. It's in decent overall shape, though a bit dusty. It was originally factory-fitted with a 10ah NiMH battery, now long since degraded. I removed the NiMH D-size cells from the case intending to replace them with new, but instead found an Ezee lithium battery for it. The sale will include the lithium battery and a charger, and the empty NiMH battery shell and an NiMH charger. IT MUST BE PICKED UP HERE BY 19 JULY. I can't ship it - sorry. The biks is located in Ohio, between Akron and Canton. When folded, it will fit in the back of any car, so you don't even need a truck to pick it up. For info please contact me off list. My private email address is here: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. -- Carl Sagan, "Pale Blue Dot" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] E-Bike for sale CHEAP - NE Ohio
The bike is claimed. Thanks all. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The Flat Earth Society has members all around the globe. -- Twitter user Flat Earth Society = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] C-Car striping kit available
I have a new old stock factory OEM Citicar / Comuta-Car striping kit. It's free to the first person who asks for it - just pay the shipping (not much as it's quite light). The stripes are black. I bought it from Jim Tervort's Sebring Auto-Cycle in the late 1980s when I thought that I was going to repaint my C-car No warranty! The adhesive may be all dried out by now, or it might still be fine. Your risk. Even if it is dried out, you might be able to use it as templates for a local sign shop or similar operation to make a new set for you. Again, free to a good home; just pay shipping. If interested, don't just sit there, as I have only a few more days to ship stuff out. For more info please contact me off list. My private email address is here: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Endless loop: See loop, endless. Loop, endless: See endless loop. -- Stan Kelly-Bootle, "The Devil's DP Dictionary" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Guess-o-meter or fake-o-meter
Tesla owners: How does your range track with the car's predictions? - >From Reuters: "Tesla employees had been instructed to thwart any customers complaining about poor driving range from bringing their vehicles in for service. Last summer, the company quietly created a "Diversion Team" in Las Vegas to cancel as many range-related appointments as possible ... "Inside the Nevada team´s office, some employees celebrated canceling service appointments by putting their phones on mute and striking a metal xylophone, triggering applause from coworkers who sometimes stood on desks. The team often closed hundreds of cases a week and staffers were tracked on their average number of diverted appointments per day. "Managers told the employees that they were saving Tesla about $1,000 for every canceled appointment, the people said... "The directive to present the optimistic range estimates came from Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk, this person said. 'Elon wanted to show good range numbers when fully charged,' the person said, adding: 'When you buy a car off the lot seeing 350-mile, 400-mile range, it makes you feel good.'" https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/ David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I LIKE paying taxes. With them, I buy civilization. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Aptera Accelerator Program
On 16 Aug 2023 at 5:10, David Heacock via EV wrote: > From my last post I guess I can not copy and paste an address so I will type > it here to see what happens. Hi David. Thanks for the note. Sorry to say, the problem isn't pasting or typing a URL, it's mostly Yahoo's careless programmers and their malformed multipart text / html messages. I suspect that they've never even looked at the plain text MIME section that their code generates. For malware prevention, the EV list filters out html, leaving only the plain text part of your message. The plain text part that remains *should* have the pasted URLs too, but in this case, it doesn't. So we have to fetch the html part from here: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev- evdl.org/attachments/20230815/d94e5fcb/attachment.htm It looks like the relevant URLs might be https://aptera.us/accelerate/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSO6Q6ftovY I hope this helps. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I tried to reach Nirvana, but all I ever got were reruns of The Mickey Mouse Club. -- Jim Ignitowsky, "Taxi" (on taking psychedelic drugs) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing
On 28 Aug 2023 at 10:40, EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote: > How automakers' disappointment in Electrify America drove them into > Tesla's arms I've read - probably here - that one of the sources of the charging points' reliability problems is the state of the mobile phone network. BTW, it's unnerving that, from what I've read, self-driving cars also rely on the mobile phone network. Wouldn't it be nice if charging points would accept cash? There'd be no need for them to phone home for ID card verification or for credit card approval. Just shovel in some cash and charge, like parking at a parking meter. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = First Law of Bicycling: No matter which way you ride, it's uphill and against the wind. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing
On 30 Aug 2023 at 18:28, Lee Hart via EV wrote: > Exactly! So why is this never mentioned in any public discussion of EVs > by the various reviewers, talking heads, and pundits? Every single > article or news program I've seen or heard ignores home charging, and > instead stresses the "need" for a vast public charging infrastructure. I suspect that many alleged journalists have no real experience with EVs, and simply can't let go of the filling station model. Of course making EVs look inconvenient is just fine with Big Oil and some automakers. That said, public charging IS critical in some places. Europe is all in for EVs, and they recognize that - especially in the large cities - many people don't have off-street parking. Nevertheless, from 2012 tol 2019, Renault specifically said that they expected most of their Zoe buyers to charge at home. They therefore didn't bother to offer DC fast charging until 2020. I live in a small rural French town and the situation here is different from, say, Paris or Nice. While many houses don't have garages or off street parking, often the houses are so close to the street that you can just pass a charging cable out your front window. Our former neighbor charged his Zoe that way. Most houses in the ritzier neighborhoods on the edge of town have garages. Still further out in the hamlets, houses have more land, and therefore have off-street parking, even if not always in a barn or garage. So quite a few people can and do charge at home. For those who can't, there's paid public charging in the center of town, and the supermarket offers free 22kw AC charging while you shop. The charging situation seems to work for a fair number of people, because even in this small town (population < 4000), I see a lot more EVs than I ever did when I lived in Ohio. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = There are only nine meals between mankind and anarchy. -- Alfred Henry Lewis = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Level 2 on road charging complications
On 1 Sep 2023 at 11:45, Mark Hanson via EV wrote: > Seems nowadays with credit card readers this messy charging process > could be a *whole* lot simpler. Yeah, you'd think. What a hassle you went through there, and for zilch. Yet nearly every filling station takes credit cards, and they just plain work. The most fuss you get from them is "key in your zip code." What's so different about EV charging? It's almost like the US charging chains are trying to get people to give up on EVs. We don't often use public charging here unless it's free. With 370-400km range, who really needs it? On the few occasions when we've paid, the Chargemap website has led us to a working charging point, and their RFID card has gotten the charge started without any trouble. Maybe we're just lucky. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Dime que temes y te dir+¬ quien eres. (Tell me what you fear, and I'll tell you who you are.) -- Spanish proverb = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] Chinese EVs stalking Europe
I've just read that so far this year at least 2 of the 3 strongest-selling EVs in the UK are from China. The UK top 3 are the Tesla Model Y, the MG4, and the Polestar 2. I say that at least 2 of them are Chinese, but IIRC some of the EU / UK Teslas come from Tesla's Shanghai factory, so maybe all 3 of the UK top sellers are Chinese-made. The 3rd place Polestar 2 is about the same size as the Tesla Y, has a larger (69kwh) battery, a range 85km greater, acceleration slower, at a price about the same as the Y. To me the more interesting EV on the list is the second place MG4. MG hasn't been an English brand since 2005, when MG Rover crashed and the Chinese automaker SAIC bought the wreckage. Their UK factory is long since shut down. You might call the MG4 a crossover, but it looks to me more like a traditional wagon or estate, or just a stretched hatchback. This is not a bad thing. The MG's battery is slightly larger than the base Tesla Y's (64kwh vs Tesla's 60kwh), and the range is nearly identical. A 77kwh battery is optional. The MG is smaller and lighter, a plus for Europe's narrow streets and small garages. Acceleration is more modest but still adequate (0- 100km/h in 7.9 sec). The main MG sales driver is probably the low price. In the UK the Tesla Y costs half again as much! It'll be interesting to see whether MG's sales continue to grow. I've also just read that the EU's most affordable EV, the diminutive Dacia Spring - made in China for Renault - will NOT be dropped in 2024 as I'd expected. Rather it will be revised and upgraded. I drove a Spring for a while recently, and found it to be quite acceptable basic EV transportation. Chinese automakers are pushing quickly into Europe, and the traditional European automakers and autoworkers' unions are deeply concerned about it. I can see a near future in which some of the EU automakers drop their smaller, lower cost EVs in favor of high-profit larger ones, leaving the low end of the market to the Chinese. That depends however on China's behavior as a world citizen. Following through on their recent aggressive military saber-rattling could change things significantly. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Give a CEO a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach him to fish, and he'll trash the environment. -- Anonymous = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing
I like what Aptera is trying to do. Tackling the question of range by boosting vehicle efficiency rather than cramming in a monster-capacity- battery is admirable - and rational. The problem is that auto buyers aren't very rational, especially in the US. 1. The Aptera looks ... funny. It's small. It seems fragile. It has only 3 wheels. That could work (somewhat) in Europe - look at the mild successes of the Renault Twizy and the Citroen Ami. BUT, it would have to be cheap like they were/are, and it's not. 2. It's limited. It can't carry much cargo or many people. This again raises the value-for-money question. It might have around 80 miles less range, but in parts of Europe a similar price gets you a Dacia Spring EV that can haul 4 people in relative comfort, and a week or two of groceries. 3. As Michael and Lee said, Aptera seems to be over-promising. EV manufacturers and converters made the same error in the 1970s and 1980s. The person who bought an "up to 40 miles of range" 1976 Citicar expecting it to take him to a job 18 miles away and back probably gave up and sold the car. Today's Aptera buyers who don't get their 40 miles on sunshine are more likely to file a class action suit. Do you think Aptera would survive one? Sidebar: Renault was careful not to make that mistake with their Zoe. In their literature, they stated the Zoe's real-world range in different kinds of weather and uses, along with the required regulatory-standard range figures. Again, I like Aptera's fundamental principles. We can use that kind of thinking, and that kind of EV. But in my view, the PV is a gimmick that just pushes the price up. I also have my doubts about the wheel motors. I wish Aptera the best and hope it takes flight, but I wouldn't invest in them. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = When we look at Auschwitz we see the end of the process. The Holocaust did not start with gas chambers. The hatred gradually developed from words, stereotypes and prejudice, through legal exclusion, dehumanisation and escalating violence. -- The Auschwitz Museum = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing
As I said before, raising efficiency rather than jamming in a monster battery is a Good Thing. If we can believe the claims for Aptera, in that respect it's on the right track. I want to see the EPA/WLTP numbers, but I can sort of believe that it could manage 100 wh/mi. The humble 1992 Solectria Force, a well-designed Geo Metro conversion, managed 150 wh/mi, though not on the highway. On 8 Sep 2023 at 0:28, David Heacock via EV wrote: > it is classified as an autocycle which has features such as three > wheels, a steering wheel and the driver is enclosed. Maybe it's just quibbling, but I saw a photo (rendering?) of the interior and I wouldn't call that weird D-shaped thing a steering wheel. Nor would I want to use it. Maybe others would be fine with it. > I would feel much safer driving an Aptera, especially because of the > way the frame and body are made. Maybe you'd *feel* safer, but would you really be? I'm not an engineer, but everything I've read says that it's a challenge to design a stable 3-wheel vehicle. http://www.evdl.org/docs/ev_expo_80_8039_3-wheel_stability.pdf The Corbin Sparrow had some fairly serious stability problems, especially if the battery mass was changed or moved. What has Aptera done for improved stability? > A number of comments have mentioned the limited amount of space inside > the vehicle but there are references to the Aptera having 60% more > storage space than a Honda Accord and 20% more than a Toyota Prius. Now hold on. Are they comparing space behind the seats? To make this fair, they should fold down the back seats in the Accord and Prius so they're also 2-seat cars. I don't know how they'd fare that way, but I can tell you that Aptera's specs claim 32.5 cu ft of cargo space - 920 liters. If we make our Renault Zoe into a 2-seater, we have 1,225 liters of cargo space - about 1/3 more. And that's in a smaller exterior than the Aptera's. The Aptera is 455cm long and 223cm wide. That strikes me as an awfully big footprint for a 2- seat car. It's wider than a Tesla Model 3, which is classified as a large car in Europe. Thus there are places an Aptera can't go. For example, it's 3cm too wide to fit through the alley leading to my garage. > I think the more reasonable consideration would not be the storage > space, but the fact that it is a two seater. I agree. That makes it a specialty vehicle and limits its sales potential. Ask Honda why they dropped the CRX, and why they turned the Insight into a bland 5-seat family car. > when you consider a lot of people commute to work alone this might > make a great second vehicle And not so good for taking the kids out for ice cream or picking up a couple of friends at the airport. I'm thinking 3rd or 4th vehicle, not second, but that's me. > A lot of discussion about how practical solar is for the Aptera ... Most of it here has had to do with PV efficiency and square area. Thing is, without tracking, it will only hit peak power at noon, and only in the summer. Winter will cut the energy harvest. So will a cloudy place like Seattle. Tall city buildings will shade it. You can't put it in the garage and still solar-charge it. What will it cost to replace the PV if it's in a wreck? Someone mentioned vandalism, and I don't think you can dismiss that as the coal-rolling crowd cranks up the violence. Both of these lead to higher insurance costs. What I'm driving at: I can't think of a case where it doesn't make more sense to put PV on your roof instead of on your car. > As far as a market for this vehicle, Aptera thinks there may be a > market of 600,000 vehicles per year Sorry, that's an investor pitch, not a realistic sales estimate. A Mazda Miata is also a 2-seater. Its base price is pretty close - about $28,000. Last year Mazda moved 10,547. In its best year, 1990, Mazda sold just under 36,000 Miatas. So, 600,000 Apteras per year? I don't think so. Maybe 6,000 if they're lucky. > From my perspective new EV startups have often failed not because of > lack of demand but because of lack of supply and the money to make the > vehicles. I'd be interested in hearing where you saw that. I've been watching the EV world since 1967, and the many failures I've seen have involved lack of demand. There just weren't a lot of buyers lining up for a EV that did less than an equivalent ICEV, but cost more. Sure the EV is cleaner, but very few people care. Don't forget the competition. The Aptera price is actually pretty good, if they can stick to it, but at least in Europe, there are several more conventional EVs in a similar price class. They may have less range, but they're more flexible. Cheap and cheerful Chinese EVs are another looming threat. So is Tesla's long-promised $25k EV, if it ever actually materializes. I think Aptera has a good basic idea. It probably does more with it than others have in the past.
[EVDL] Four wheels for the price of two
You can spend upwards of $7-8k for a top of the line 2-wheel E-bike. Or, for about the same outlay, you can have a 4-wheel EV, if you live in Europe. >From Citroen, the folks who brought France the famous post-WW2 2CV: https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2021-citroen-ami-first-drive-review/ The Ami is the C-car (Citicar/Comuta-Car) drastically updated for the 21st century, but at a much more appealing price. The 1978 Comuta-Car cost $5k. That's about $24,500 in 2023 dollars. The Ami costs 1/3 as much and is a better EV. Now that's progress. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn up the intelligence. There's a knob called "brightness," but it doesn't work. -- Gallagher = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed
I managed to find the article. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/09/1600-miles-on-a-single-charge-student- built-ev-sets-new-world-record/ shortcut: https://v.gd/X9prd1 Top speed 42 km/h Weight 170kg For comparison, in 1987 the GM Sunraycer won the World Solar Challenge - all energy from the sun - with an average speed of 41.6mph. Top speed 109 km/h Weight 177 kg These - and many others over the decades - are literal academic exercises. Maybe an obscenely wealthy person could commission one like them as a toy. Most of us couldn't, and probably wouldn't want to anyway. Cool as they are, they're not really very safe or practical for public roads. Wouldn't it be great if the automakers hired some of these students and put them to work applying some of their efficiency optimizations to production EVs? Dream on, I guess David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Any time you see a group with the word liberty, freedom, or truth in its name, you can be sure that it stands for the exact opposite. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed
On 15 Sep 2023 at 9:40, George E Swartz via EV wrote: > I think Bob Aronson's Mars electric car with 2000 pounds of lead acid > batteries did 144 miles under ideal conditions in the late 1960's The Mars II's advertised range was 120 miles with a 30kwh battery weighing about 1900lb. Bob Rice, a longtime member of this list until his death in 2011, worked for Aronson. He reported that he routinely managed 95 miles at 50-55mph with a Mars II. http://evdl.org/pages/renault_evs.html David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views. This can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering. -- Doctor Who, "The Face of Evil" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed (Alan Arrison)
On 16 Sep 2023 at 21:36, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > 100 miles on 1kWh? What are you smoking? > > I'm pretty sure even an electric bicycle can't do that. Depends on the bike, I guess, but even our cheap "Makadam" brand department store E-bike will do a real-world 40km on a factory-rated 313wh battery - about 79 miles per kwh. That's with pedaling though. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = "My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying "My mother, drunk or sober." -- G K Chesterton = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: 3000lb of metal, parked
Erine Erickson loves her Tesla Model 3. But these days, the EV stays parked in her garage. "It´s, you know, 3,000 pounds of metal in a parking spot downstairs," she said ... ... When replacing Erickson´s battery, Tesla says they discovered that Carfax listed her car as having a salvaged title due to being totaled in a collision ... Carfax´s information was wrong because an insurance company provided incorrect information ... [W]ith Carfax correcting Erickson´s car from a salvage title to a clean title, Tesla hadn´t restored the supercharging feature and they hadn´t helped Erickson at all. "I wouldn´t characterize it as customer service," she said. "I mean, there´s not a way to email them. There´s a way to communicate on the app but they don´t respond." So, On Your Side reached out to Tesla and explained the issue. ... Tesla ... reactivated the feature "I´ve sent over 30 emails, every single day I´ve been dealing with this and rarely getting a response - it was when you all got involved that something finally happened," she said. We´re glad we got Tesla to fix the issue but Tesla did not make it easy. Elon Musk did away with the company´s PR department. Full story: https://www.azfamily.com/2023/09/15/tesla-blocks-scottsdale-woman-charging- her-car/ Shortcut URL: https://v.gd/Rp53yy David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. -- Edward R Murrow = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 3000lb of metal, parked
On 17 Sep 2023 at 14:06, paul dove via EV wrote: > Stories like this are so unbelievable. > I have never communicated with Tesla via email. > Any issue with my vehicle was handled via the phone app. > They always respond in a timely manner Are you seriously suggesting that the Tesla owner in the news report is a liar? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = There'll be one corporation, selling one little box. It'll do what you want, and tell you what you want, And cost whatever you've got. -- Greg Brown, "Where is Maria," 1996 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 3000lb of metal, parked
The owner had no problems getting warranty repair for a battery problem. Her trouble started because 1. Tesla ran a Carmax report on the car 2. They discovered an erroneous accident report 3. Without verifying the report, they disabled the car's supercharger access 4. Tesla's service people didn't tell the owner, who didn't discover it was disabled until she needed to use a supercharger 5. They ignored her requests to reinstate the supercharging even when she proved that her car hadn't been wrecked 6. The media had to get involved before Tesla would pay attention This raises some questions. 1. Why did Tesla service run a Carfax report in the first place? 2. Why didn't they verify the accident information before making such a massive change in the car's usability? 3. Why didn't they tell the owner that they'd disabled supercharging? 4. Is it really necessary to automatically disable supercharging on a salvaged car anyway? 5. If Tesla can arbitrarily confiscate features that you paid for, do you really own your Tesla? - PS - The Mozilla Foundation recently issued a report on vehicle data privacy, ranking the generally awful privacy of several automakers. https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official- cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/ https://v.gd/7gdOQG Tesla placed dead last. (Nissan was only slightly ahead of them.) https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/tesla/ With its digital stalking and its insistence on control, Tesla looks a lot like an abusive spouse. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I will never be seen taking to the streets to defend my poetry. The carpenter doesn't fight for his trusses. No one can fight morally for his nose or his feet, his teeth, or his hair. -- Pablo Neruda = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Right to Repair Tesla vs Aptera
On 20 Sep 2023 at 13:37, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > In my opinion, EVs, and cars in general, have way too many features. Opionion here also, but I agree 100%. While our Zoe was being repaired from a rear-end accident, I rented a Dacia Spring, Europe's cheapest EV (around 22k Euro before subsidies). It was a bit underpowered and noisy, not very comfortable, and had about half the range, but in some ways I liked it better than the Zoe. One of the reasons was its relative lack of pointless gimmicks. It had no beeps, boops, and musical chords; a real physical key to unlock and start it; no annoying automatic locking; and glory be, a real mechanical handbrake lever between the front seats - I despise the now ubiquitous electric-servo parking brakes. > All I really want is the necessary gages on the dash, radio, clock, > and HVAC. The rest can be done on the phone. Here, I'm not so much in agreement. I don't want my entire life, or even my driving, anchored to a mobile phone, especially with the dismal privacy values that go with phones. Give me knobs and/or levers to control the HVAC, headlights, wipers, cruise, the usual. Put as much as possible on the steering wheel or column to minimize the time I have to look away from the road. Touch screens, be they part of the car or on a mobile phone, are way too distracting. A lot can happen in the longer time it sometimes takes to use a touch screen in a car. > Don't need entertainment systems and all the other "useful" > features. Mixed views here. I kind of like being able to play audio from a USB stick, and there are a couple of radio stations around here that I kind of like. Don't need or want a built-in satnav though. I have Garmin for that, and it doesn't share my data. > Ok, I'll include window and door lock controls and other obvious and > dedicated systems. Again, I much prefer real mechanical switches - or at least simulations of them - for these. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = We have lived our lives by the assumption that what was good for us would be good for the world. We must change our lives so that it will be possible to live by the contrary assumption, that what is good for the world will be good for us. -- Wendell Berry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Right to Repair Tesla vs Aptera
On 21 Sep 2023 at 3:13, David Heacock via EV wrote: > being an Ambassador for Aptera I was wondering if anyone would object > to sharing this information with Aptera and other Ambassadors? I expect that if someone who's posted doesn't want to be quoted, he'll let you know, and you'll respect those wishes. That said, the list is archived here: http://evdl.org/archive/ The archive is open for readinhg. That's the fundamental nature of the internet. BTW, "ambassador" is an interesting term in this context. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I LIKE paying taxes. With them, I buy civilization. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Battery prices fall 80%; tipping point to the end of ICE cars is VERY close
On 21 Sep 2023 at 15:15, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > According to the Electric Viking prices of batteries will bring EV cost > to that of ICE, thus bring it's end. I don't know who "Electric Viking" is, but I can see the decline of ICEVs on the horizon in Europe. Here new passenger ICEV sales are supposed to end in 2035. That may yet change since Germany's lawmakers, bless their hearts, are fighting to dilute that requirement on behalf of their petrol-poisoned, big-bucks, knuckle-dragging automakers. But I think that eventually most ICEVs will be phased out. However, I don't see it ever happening in the US. The nation's political future doesn't bode well for it. And the oily propaganda has been quite successful. I read recently that in a survey 41% of the US respondents declared that they would never buy an EV for any reason. It's not a matter of cost. Many of these folks will gladly pay $60k and more for vehicles based on an obsolete design - pickup trucks haven't fundamentally changed since Ford added independent front suspension in 1965. Forty-one percent is an intriguing number in the US. Listing other things that around 41% of the US population favor will be left as an exercise for the reader. :-\ David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Our jobs are not supposed to bring us enlightenment. They are supposed to bring us money and stolen office supplies. If we are going to perform any ritual at work, let it be to invite a demon into the sacred circle to smite our enemy, Liz in Human Resources. - Jessa Crispin = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt EV "Final Recall Remedy"
On 25 Sep 2023 at 10:31, Mark E. Hanson via EV wrote: > I've been ignoring their various urgent "important safety racall" > notices I've been getting periodically as a ploy to *reduce* my range. Maybe you should consider yourself lucky. If your Bolt was as "advanced" as a Tesla, you wouldn't have to take it to the dealer for its downgrade. Most likely you wouldn't get a choice at all. They'd downgrade you by mobile phone connection. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. -- Alan Kay = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Made it on Wham Baam Teslacam
On 29 Sep 2023 at 18:27, Mark Laity-Snyder via EV wrote: > Why would anyone decide to go vigilante justice and break MORE laws trying to > get someone who might have done something even slightly questionable to > realize their mistake? Because we have politicians and authority figures encouraging such behavior day after day. Tolerance, consideration, civility, and neighborly behavior are out. Those are for wusses. Blind rage, vigilante violence, and "second amendment solutions" are in. And if you don't yet know what to be furious about, or who you're supposed to hate, why, they'll tell you. Books, teachers, libraries, librarians. EV owners, EV charging points, EVs. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Listen to the mustn'ts, child; listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me: Anything can happen, child. Anything can be. -- Shel Silverstein = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Bolt road trip
On 7 Oct 2023 at 4:16, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > The rental agency expects the car to be returned with 80% charge. That > was the real challenge. Rental operations can't seem to shake the fuel-tank mindset. When I rented a Dacia Spring from LeClerc, a chain "superstore" here, they expected me to return it "almost full." Fortunately we have an EVSE here and a trip from my house to there used only about 2% charge. > The Bolt fails miserably, as I think most people know, at level 3 > charging. It took about 1h20 to charge from about 25% to 85%. That is > substantially slower than most other contemporary EVs. I didn't know that, but then I'm not "most people." :-) What are the details? Why is it slow? Our Zoe is somewhat limited in the fast charging department with a max of only 50kW for CCS. Renault's official reasoning for that is that "most owners charge at home." Fifty kW means about 45 minutes for 20-80%. Faster would be nice, but we so seldom charge on trips that it hardly matters. And 45m is about right for a snack and coffee/tea at a highway stop. On the other hand, at 22kW, the Zoe's level 2 charging is faster than almost everyone else's here, if 3-phase AC is available. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Blow up your TV, throw away your paper Move to the country, build you a home Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches Try'n' find Jesus on your own. -- John Prine, "Spanish Pipedream" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] Expensive batteries
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-owners-bill-battery-damaged-ev- scotland-weather-2023-10 or https://v.gd/yIsSe4 Ouch. That price, $21k, seems a tad pricey. Regrettably the article is sorely lacking in detail. It doesn't even specify the Tesla model or the battery capacity. I could certainly be wrong but my guess is that Tesla sold the owner a new battery. Presumably there were no refurbs to be had. I can't find the source now but I recall reading - maybe in a web forum - that most EV manufacturers, at least in Europe, maintain a stock of refurb batteries for warranty service. They don't fit new ones because the warranty usually promises only to keep the capacity above some threshold, typically around 70% of original; also because the manufacturers are skinflints. One solution for the EV owner is leasing the battery, if not the car. When we bought our Zoe in 2020, Renault was still offering the car with a leased battery. They no longer are, AFAIK. In the end, we took the purchased battery option, but we debated going for the lease. Renault promised that if we leased, we'd never have less than 70% capacity. Also, the monthly cost would have been fairly low for our low KM/year usage. But there are non-lease alternatives. I haven't looked into this, but maybe someone else has: is manufacturer, dealer, or third-party EV battery insurance (extended warranty) available? It seems like it might be a viable business. Something like pay $A per month and the insurer guarantees that you'll have a battery of B% capacity for C years; or pay $X per month and if your battery falls below Y% capacity within Z years you'll get a new one. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If economists wished to study the horse, they wouldn't go and look at horses. They'd sit in their studies and say to themselves, "What would I do if I were a horse?" -- Ely Devons = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Expensive batteries
Here's a bit more detail on the original incident. https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-couple-fume- handed-17k-27906242?_ga=2.246347724.933278429.1697443215- 401898413.1697443216 Yikes, try this link: https://v.gd/QCDfhZ A "goodwill repair" is when a manufacturer covers repair of something that fails out of warranty, to make the customer happy and retain his future loyalty. I've read that Tesla has something like 10 times the goodwill repair costs of other car manufacturers. This was part of a recent allegation that they were recording warranty repairs as goodwill, which would reduce Tesla's apparent warranty costs. Anyway, if that's true, I'll bet they could have handed this owner a new goodwill battery for free, or for something more affordable like $5k, and never even have noticed it in the bottom line. That probably would have prevented, or at least ameliorated, the negative PR that this will generate for them. Oh well. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Research (noun): Searching the internet until you find a source that agrees with what you already believed. -- Anonymous = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/10/striking-uaw-workers-win-key-battery- plant-concession-from-general-motors/ or https://v.gd/j0sNGM "In a report published on Friday, Heatmap found that once battery-cell production is taken into account, EVs may well require more workers [hours] than vehicles with internal combustion engines ...The conventional [ICEV] powertrains took 4 to 11 worker hours, while the EV powertrains took 15 to 24 ... '" It seems that the autoworkers' unions are concerned about job losses building EVs - which might indeed happen. The argument this article makes is that IF you build cells and batteries in the US with union autoworkers, there will be MORE labor hours in the EVs than in the ICEVs. Don't get me wrong; I'm good with autoworkers keeping their jobs. It's just that this runs counter to what I've read about EVs for over 50 years. EVs are massively simpler than ICEVs, with fewer precision moving parts. Does battery production cancel all that out? Are cell and battery manufacturing not automated? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = When I was born, I was black. When I grow up, I'm black. When I'm ill, I'm black. When I die, I'm black. But you - when you're born, you're pink. When you grow up, you're white. When you're ill, you're green. When you go out in the sun, you go red. When you're cold, you go blue. When you die, you're purple. And you have the nerve to call me colored? -- Malcolm X = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?
On 17 Oct 2023 at 0:27, Michael Ross via EV wrote: > I am not buying these figures on unknown say so. Sounds like BS. Just > whose EVs and whose batteries? Which models? Here's the original article, with some discussion of methodology. https://heatmap.news/electric-vehicles/evs-trump-uaw-jobs-evidence > Anna Stefanopoulou, a professor of mechanical engineering at the > University of Michigan, has been investigating three manufacturing > sites that used to produce conventional cars and are now producing > EVs: A Tesla factory in California that used to be a jointly-owned > facility between GM and Toyota that produced Pontiacs and Corollas; a > Rivian plant in Illinois that previously produced Mitsubishis; and the > Orion Assembly plant in Michigan, where GM transitioned from producing > Chevy Sonics and Buick Veranos to electric Chevy Bolts ... Each one is > producing fewer vehicles per worker than they were before, meaning > it´s taking more people per vehicle to produce electric cars. The > California site, which has been producing EVs for the longest out of > the three, showed the most dramatic change. At its peak, the GM/Toyota > plant produced 80 vehicles per person per year. The Tesla plant > averages 30. > > Stefanopoulou ... predicts that after a decade or so, as processes > become more streamlined, the commonly-held belief that EV assembly > requires less labor will turn out to be correct. However, she also said > that if she were to consider battery cell production, as Cotterman did, > EV production on the whole could require more people. That's just the central point and there are qualifications. I suggest that you read the entire piece at the above link. The Tesla vs GM/Toyota vehicle productivity hit really surprises me. I thought that Tesla had gone all in for automation. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Things I once thought were funny are scary now. I often feel like a resident of Pompeii who has been asked for some humorous comments on lava. -- Tom Lehrer = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?
On 17 Oct 2023 at 15:57, paul dove via EV wrote: > We have some news of the efficiency of Tesla -vs- VW in terms of how many > workers can make how many cars in Germany, according to a Reuters.com article. > Let's see what the number say: I could be wrong, but unless you've started referring to yourself as the royal we, this looks like copy and paste, rather than your own words. What's the source, please? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If all our bicycles turn into cars, that's a horrible figure. It would scare the world. -- Zhai Guangming, China National Petroleum Corporation = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] nissan leaf fob key
I see several cheap generic Nissan key fobs on Ebay, most in the $15-25 range. They claim to work for Leaves. No idea whether that's so, but at that price it doesn't hurt much to take a chance. Some are shipped from China, but others say they ship from US stock. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If the environment were a bank, it would have been saved already. -- Bernie Sanders = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla-Y KWH Efficiency
On 26 Oct 2023 at 19:57, Lee Hart via EV wrote: > One of Solectria's tricks was to meticulously adjust their EVs for zero > toe-in. You could easily push a Solectria Force with one hand. Solectria's founder James Worden seemed a bit fanatical about efficiency. He could have sold his cars for less money had he retained the Geo Metro transaxle. But for most of the production he used lighter, lower friction, single-speed Solectria/Brusa developed transaxles because they were more efficient. As Lee suggests, there were lots of other efficiency tweaks at play, including carefully designed inverters and solid regen. They made for a watt-hour-sipping EV. In suburban driving at 40mph average speed, early Forces typically used about 140-160 wh/mile at the battery. Interesting too that Brusa's Axel Krause put similar drive components into his Mini-Evergreen (search for "Commincation" Mini Evergreen EV) and got 130- 135 wh/mile in similar driving. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = A successful tool is one that was used to do something undreamed of by its author. -- SC Johnson = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Towing
On 26 Oct 2023 at 20:29, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote: > cultural factors, founded in belief rather than fact. Many people think > a big truck is needed to pull a small 5x8 utility trailer. Yeah. .Americans are suckers for the ads and hearsay telling them that they need a 3-ton truck to drive 5 miles to work, so that doesn't surprise me. Here in rural France I see a lot of utility trailers, almost always hitched to small, light cars, though so far I haven't noticed any behind EVs. That's how they move stuff without having to own and drive a gas-guzzling monster that literally won't fit through some of these narrow medieval alleyways. My neighbor is a landscaper. I often see his trailer loaded with brush on the way to the recycling center. He pulls it with a 1999 Citroen Saxo supermini. Never a problem, he says. You should see the hitches used in Europe. They're different. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tow_ball_50mm.png David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Hope inspires and comforts, but it's fear and rage that get voters to the polls. -- Found on the net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] 'Facts' about EV's debunked
On 28 Oct 2023 at 18:10, Michael Ross via EV wrote: > Europe and North America not comparable where fossil fuels are concerned. > EU has none and we have an unlimited supply. I'm not an expert on this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't say Europe has none. From what I've read, Norway may not pump as much as the US, but it's still a significant petroleum and natural gas producer. A few other EU countries, and the UK, contribute smaller amounts. Nor do I think that it's quite fair to say that the US has an unlimited fossil fuel supply. No nation does. The US acts like it does, though. The sincerity is a bit suspect, but Western Europe at least makes concerned noises about reducing carbon emissions. They're trying. New passenger ICEVs are banned from 2035. Already I see more EVs in this tiny rural French town than I ever saw in the medium size Ohio cities around where I lived. Right now the US is tentatively making carbon-control noises, but their past and their likely future direction is for them to pump it and burn it until it's gone (and we are). David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Blockchain is an elaborate workaround for a very specific problem: verifying irreversible transfers of value without a centralized authority. In other words, it's a computationally burdensome way to hate the government. -- Sarah Jeong = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] 'Facts' about EV's debunked
On 28 Oct 2023 at 23:17, Michael Ross via EV wrote: > There isn't enough copper (and so on) to electrify what uses petrol now, > not in my lifetime. The greatest suppliers we prefer not to use - Russia in > particular. There is copper in South America, but mines don't come on line > overnight, more like over a decade. Not to lump you in with them, but this is the kind of rhetoric that the anti- EV / anti-progress crowd repeats endlessly. Not enough copper,.not enough lithium, not enough , as if those were the only materials we could possibly use to build EVs. In the early days of the ICEV, experts predicted that there we could never refine enough gasoline to fuel a world full of cars. Horses forever! Then chemists invented catalytic cracking. Near the start of WW2, the US lost its source of natural rubber for tires. The rubber industry developed synthetic rubber and we forged ahead. Science today isn't any less resourceful than it was then. IF we have the will, and IF we don't let the wailing foot- and knuckle-draggers hold us back, we'll find a way. It may not happen in the US this time. They have too many short-term "but my profit margin!" lobbying libertarian billionaires. Why invest their billions in a sustainable future when they can throw them away promoting regressive, reactionary politics and scientific retreat? I see other nations taking real action, however haltingly, toward a more sustainable future. If they keep their eyes on the road ahead instead of on the rear view mirror, they have a good chance of solving the problems, EV and otherwise, and reducing the world's carbon hit. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The metaverse as envisioned by the tech giants is not some promising new frontier for humanity. It's just another place to spend money on things. --Keza MacDonald = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] 'Facts' about EV's debunked
On 30 Oct 2023 at 7:33, Ron via EV wrote > We can't fix or prevent any major problem as long as we're a bunch of selfish > assholes. It doesn't help that we've had nearly half a century of public figures dismissing the idea of a common good with such platitudes as "there's no such thing as society, only men and women," "greed is good," and "it's your money." Driving a modest EV instead of a ICEV is a start on behaving as if society (that is, other people) matters. So is riding an [E-]bike or public transit, or walking. So is living in a walkable community, so you don't even need a vehicle. So are making your own renewable energy, choosing used rather than new, buying locally-grown food. These are all pretty easy choices. By no means are they the total solution, but they help. At one time, those choices at least got you a "good for you" from folks, even if they often silently added "but I don't have the time." These days, in the US at least, you're as apt to get called "woke" - as if that ungrammatical label were a bad thing. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I believe I have created one of the smallest working miniature trebuchets I have ever seen. -- Alex Presle= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers
On 31 Oct 2023 at 13:06, EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote: > Looks like the gassers are going to start sharing their territory with us > Evers. I'd rather see them make money on EV charging than continue to fight EVs - though they may well do both. Colocating EV charging with filling stations has been going on here for some time. I think it makes sense but would be interested in hearing arguments to the contrary. In early March 2020 - just before the lockdown - I stopped at a couple of autoroute aires (service plazas) on my way up to Paris in a rented ICEV. Both aires had EVs charging across the tarmac from the fuel pumps. Also, since 2021, Total, a major oil and gas vendor, has been going in for EV charging in a pretty substantial way. They're adding fast DC charging to their autoroute filling stations, and to some others in cities and rural areas. The number is now approaching 200 in France alone. The first charging points installed were 175kW. I think I recall reading that the most recent ones are 350kW. We haven't needed any of these yet but will probably be glad they're available when we do - though it's reputed to be some of the nation's most expensive public EV charging. For example, a km worth of their charging in a Zoe EV costs about what a km worth of petrol does in a similar ICEV Clio. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made. -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]
On 1 Nov 2023 at 0:56, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > Instead, chargers need to be located where people can usefully spend > some time. That may be at the grocery, a shopping center, a park, > highway rest areas, a walkable neighborhood, a tourist destination, for > example. Then you can painlessly wait as long as needed for your charge. Absolutely. Running with just one example, most travelers will welcome a periodic pit stop with food and/or drink. The autoroute aires here usually have surprisingly decent restaurants - hey, it's France; good food is darn near a legal right. A standard French lunch, properly enjoyed, will take abouit 2 hours. That's plenty of time to charge our Renault Zoe's 52kWh battery from 20% to over 80% at a 22kW AC charging point. I'm not entirely sure that that's coincidence. :-) In the 1960s, longtime EV list correspondent Bob Rice worked for Bob Aronson's Electric Fuel Propulsion. Bob wrote here about EFP's Electric Car Expressway, with 30kW AC charging at 5 cooperative Holiday Inns along I-94 between Detroit and Chicago. Every motel had a restaurant. Bob said that when he drove the route in EFP's Mars II EVs, he never arrived hungry or thirsty. :-) David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists, and then believe what they read. -- Karl Kraus = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] California solicits applications for $40 million in NEVI EV charging grants
On 3 Nov 2023 at 10:56, EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote: > in a few years ... gas guzzlers are going to be parked for $20/day > because Calif only has EV charging stations, no gas stations. That's a pretty optimistic (?) scenario in a nation where surveys report that 40% of the population say that they'll never buy an EV under any circumstances. Events can sometimes change minds, though. US ICEV fuel demand has proven pretty resilient when it comes to price. What really galls drivers, especially rich ones, is serious refueling inconvenience - like long waits in long lines for limited fuel amounts. Fifty years ago, in October of 1973, a coalition of mideast states attacked Israel on Yom Kippur. The US took Israel's side, resupplying their military. OPEC's response was an embargo on oil shipments to the US and several other Western nations. If you were alive then, you know what happened next. If you weren't, your favorite search engine is your friend. As someone once said, "all we learn from history is history repeats." David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with every Microsoft product. -- Ferenc Mantfeld = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success.
On 4 Nov 2023 at 11:51, EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote: > > Part of the problem is that our "leaders" are actually followers. > > Entirely true and as it should be, after all we elect our leaders and > they are supposed to follow the will of the people. You (and I) wish. Nope; they follow the money. "To understand the Republican party, or the Democratic party, for that matter, it is most efficient to look directly at the clients -- or as political scientist Thomas Ferguson would call them, the 'major investors.' On that level, the ideological contradictions are unimportant. Political parties do function as mediating institutions, just not for voters." -- William Greider, "Who Will Tell the People" This isn't to say that voting has no effect on anything. It's just that it has little to no effect on public policies that interest the ultra-wealthy. The applicability of this principle to EVs will be left as an exercise for the reader. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Celebrity: a person known for his well-knownness. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success.
On 5 Nov 2023 at 8:49, Thos True via EV wrote: > I find it difficult to believe that we are once again being drawn into > the argument that the grid cannot support the demand for EV's ... Most > vehicles use around the same amount of electricity per charge as > running a dryer for a couple of cycles (how many people think twice > about doing that?). I'm not an engineer, but I suspect that the main concern isn't so much the total energy used as the peak load. Imagine a motorway charging site with just 6 kiosks good for 350kW each. At some point all 6 would be going flat out, for a demand of 2.1 mW. Seems kind of brisk, especially since it's likely to hit during the day, when electrical demand is already high. OTOH I don't see a major problem with home charging. It's relatively modest power, on average around 7kW at my meter, though folks here who have 3-phase power can nudge 22kW with home charging. It's also usually at night, when powerplants have excess capacity anyway. In fact back in the 1970s some US utilities said they welcomed [the idea of] EVs as a way to make some money from those night-idling generators. But as I said, I'm no engineer. I didn't watch the clip in the OP - sorry, I don't have the patience - but there is not now nor has there ever been any shortage of FUD around EVs. Whether you're an investor/owner filthy rich from greasy oil, or a media exec looking for clickbait, it's (alas) not that tough to find a pseudo- expert who will find - or make up - the right data to give you the anti-EV news release that you crave. I'm thinking here of an infamous NY Times EV hit piece from 1995. It was based on a Carnegie-Mellon study which claimed that because of lead in batteries EVs would be an Environmental Disaster Beyond Anyone's Worst Nightmares (tm). If you're an EV list old-timer, you may remember this one. The study was promptly debunked, but the damage was done. Nobody paid attention to the facts. The C-M lead study gave EV boosters headaches for years. Even today this rubbish paper still gets cited now and then. And it *was* rubbish. It was based on bogus data, including some that the "researchers" literally made up (their "best estimates"). If you want the whole sordid tale, look here: http://evdl.org/pages/carnegie_lead.html There are and will be more like it. They can't seem to help themselves. It's the agenda. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders. -- Hal Abelson = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OFF TOPIC Re: EV's not a green success.
On 6 Nov 2023 at 19:00, 63urban via EV wrote: > Has anyone actually looked at the approach Toyota is taking with > hydrogen. I don't know that Toyota is all that credible on EVs, or anything related. It seems as if they're always talking about the EVs that they'll offer in 5 years. They just aren't a significant EV presence. Last year in Europe they sold fewer than 6,000 EVs. That's 98.3% fewer than the EU EV leader, Volkswagen Group (over 349,000 EVs sold). > They have taken their proven hybrid platform and introduced a hydrogen > component that takes on-board water and produces the hydrogen at a rate > required to fuel an ice.So the only infrastructure required is water. That kind of sounds like a Toyota news release or advertisement. In fact it reminds me about as much of the investor-trolling backyard "free energy" true believers. >From your description, it almost seems as if Toyota is saying they can buld a miracle car that runs on water. It reminds me of David Mamet's radio play "The Water Engine." That was pure fantasy, and I suspect that this is too. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but I couldn't find any information on this alleged breakthrough. Can you cite a credible source? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = These are horrible times to be a science-fiction writer. All the dystopian scenarios you can dream up become real before you've even finished the first draft. -- Anonymous = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OFF TOPIC Re: EV's not a green success.
On 7 Nov 2023 at 18:00, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: > I stumbled > across this while researching the Mirai on Wikipedia > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai . A quick quick scan of > the Wikipedia page doesn't turn up a description matching of "makes > it's own fuel", so perhaps I encountered that on some other page > while doing the reading. Are you sure? I've read through the Wikipedia entry 3 times, and I find nothing of the sort in it. I also didn't see anything relevant to this discussion on Toyota's Mirai webpage, but I don't enable javascript for just anyone, so I may have missed something there. I coiuld certainly be wrong, but so far I think that it's just a rumor and/or a misinterpretation of something else. I've read about Toyota's recent use of the Mirai FC design to generate hydrogen for a furnace in one of their manufacturing plants, so maybe someone saw that and thought it was about the car. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I saw a sign on a guy's garage that said "Don't even think about parking here." So you know what I did? I sat right there and I thought about it. I yelled up at his window, "Hey buddy, I'm thinking about it. Go ahead, call the cops. I'll just tell them I was thinking about something else." -- Paula Poundstone = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OFF TOPIC Re: EV's not a green success.
On 8 Nov 2023 at 8:50, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > Anyone can make a Wikipedia edit. It was probably removed quickly because > most everyone realizes you can't make a car run with just water. You can't? Oh, darn. Well, how about attaching a generator to your EV's wheel then? Keep the batteries charged so the car runs forever. Or put a windmill on the hood. Yeah, that'll work. It's a commentary on the pitiful state of high school science education. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The phrase "May you live in interesting times" is the lowest in a trilogy of Chinese curses that continues "May you come to the attention of those in authority," and finishes with "May the gods give you everything you ask for." I have no idea about its authenticity. -- Terry Pratchett = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Smoke on the Water
Or, Little Red Rented Rowboat. Warning: a Tesla X is NOT an Amphicar. https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-x-rolls-itself-into-a-fiery-watery-end- 1850998617 Or https://v.gd/wTqxOR "The driver of the Model X had just backed a pair of jet skis into the water ... the car 'lost traction' ... the driver received a warning to get out of the car, however the power doors wouldn´t allow her to exit the vehicle. Luckily, the driver´s husband came to the rescue before the Model X could simultaneously sink into the saltwater and go up in smoke. No one was injured in the incident ... The fire was allowed to burn underwater until it extinguished itself." Bystander video clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuFelNI2c08 I understand the physics, but it's still a bit mind-bending to watch flames rolling out of the ocean. It's worth noting that this phenomenon isn't limited to Teslas. Any EV could have the same kind of accident, though I don't know how many other EVs are approved for towing and apt to be towing boats. Be careful when launching your boat. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = All we learn from history is history repeats. -- Andrew Ratshin = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Cybertruck buyer's remorse not allowed?
I've been saying for years that if you buy a Tesla, you don't really own it. It seems that goes double for the Cybertruck. https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-sue-cybertruck-buyers-they-resell-in- first-year-2023-11 shortcut URL: https://v.gd/QA68vz I'm sure there must be a good reason for this - right? Would or will YOU agree to it? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = To fascists, satire is more dangerous than bullets. They're always humorless, so they have no defense against laughter and derision. -- Anonymous = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Cybertruck buyer's remorse not allowed?
"We were just kidding!" -- Someone at Tesla, apparently https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/15/tesla_reverses_course_on_cybertruck/ Shortcut: https://v.gd/lbK4lJ David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Those who would repeat the past must control the teaching of history. -- Frank Herbert, "Dune" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Affordable small European EVs on the way
I know of at least 3 EU automakers who are planning EVs in the EUR 20k range for 2025-2026. Alas, these will probably never arrive in the US. 1. Citroen New E-C3, a reworkikng of their long-popular C3 supermini. In addition to the EV version they plan to offer mild hybrid and old fashioned ICEV models. The New E-C3 is supposed to go on sale in early 2025. Stellantis say it will cost EUR 23,300 with a 44kWh LiFePO4 battery and a 320km range, and EUR 19,900 with a smaller battery and 200km range. We'll see whether those prices hold up. 2. VW has been promising a 2025 EUR 20k EV for a while now. The ID2 was supposed to be IT, but it looks like they'll swing wide on the price, more like EUR 25k. They say they're still trying for the EUR 20k mark but it will be a different car. Maybe an ID1? 3. On Wednesday (15 November 2023) Renault showed off a prototype of their EUR 20k entry, wearing the Renault Twingo badge. Twingo has long been Renault's smallest and cheapest ICEV. It had styling echoes of the 1st generation (1992) Twingo rather than the current model. This is now a thing with Renault EVs. They also have in the wings Renault 4 and Renault 5 EVs, reminiscent f even older Renault ICEVs. Renault's current CEO is Luca de Meo, the guy who gave us the rehashed Fiat 500 when he ran that company. Are you surprised? The new Twingo will be an A-segment city car, probably built in Slovenia. I assume that it will replace the Chinese-made Dacia Spring, currently Europe's cheapest EV. No info on battery or range, but they promise energy efficiency of 10kWh / 100km (160 Wh/mile).. Renault are trying to get it on the market in late 2025 or early 2026 "'Twingo is the European kei car," [de Meo] said. 'It doesn't make sense to use a 2.5-ton car to move a single person in the city ... We have to go back to smaller cars.'" Full story: https://europe.autonews.com/cars-concepts/renault-preps-twingo-electric-city- car-2026-launch https://v.gd/S3Q4iI In other news, earlier this month Renault spun off their EV division as a new subsidiary, Ampere. IMO this might not have been the best name for it as it's reminiscent of the Opel Ampera, the EU version of the Chevrolet Volt, but who am I to say? They have pretty lofty goals for reducing costs. https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/renault-targets-11-billion-revenue- ampere-ev-unit https://v.gd/mvzGbf David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Affordable small European EVs on the way
On 15 Nov 2023 at 21:35, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: > I suppose we are waiting for a "Smart" size car from VW Interesting that you mention Smart. The Citroen New E-C3 is built on the Indian version of a Smart platform. https://electrek.co/2023/10/17/stellantis-unveils-affordable-electric- citroen-c3-25k/ https://v.gd/PZodnE At EUR 23,300 the 320km range E-C3 will go an sale in late 2024, well ahead of anything comparable that VW has in the pipeline. > for example if [VW] bring an electrified version of the Up! That car is > barely more than 11 ft long (3m 60cm) They already have. Volkswagen introduced the E-Up in 2014. They ended production last month, along with the entire Up range including ICEV. The word is that there won't be another ICEV A-segment VW. The Up replacement is supposed to be EV only, either the ID2 or ID1, depending on who you read. IMO, most likely the ID2 will end up being the new Polo. But it won't arrive until 2025 or 2026. I don't understand VW's strategy of ending E-Up production 2 years or more before its replacement is in place. Maybe they think that A-segment EV buyers will just camp outside VW dealers and wait for them to build them. IMO, more likely VW will follow Ford in losing yourg, limited-budget customers to the Chinese automakers and maybe to Citroen and Renault (Dacia Spring @ EUR 22k). If those customers like what they find, they're not too likely to return to Volkswagen - and Ford - as they age and gain more resources. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = We don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks. -- Bill Watterson, "Calvin and Hobbes" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Tesla slipping?
Not just a Model X slipping into the sea at a Florida boat launch recently (look it up if you haven't read about it), but in worldwide sales. Even though BYD sells only buses in the US, it's just about caught up with Tesla worldwide. BYD is gaining on Tesla probably because Tesla only offers large, relatively expensive EVs. BYD has a wider model range, including the sharp-looking A- segment Seagull - not available in Europe, but selling for about US$10k in China. Full story: https://www.businessinsider.com/china-byd-tesla-electric-car-ev-race-2023-11 Though I have yet to see (or at least notice) anything Chinese here other than a growing number of Dacia Springs, Chinese EV sales are reportedly growing rapidly elsewhere in the EU. In September the EU started looking into exactly how much the Chinese government is subsidizing those EVs. If they find significant "dumping," they can tack on tariffs to make up the price difference. Meanwhile, Stellantis and Renault have come out swinging with big, ambitious plans to cut their EU EV manufacturing costs and introduce more price- competitive EVs. They're aiming for well under EUR25k, and possibly under EUR20k (around US$22k). The B-segment Citroen EC3, with 320km range, is expected to go for EUR23,300 next year. A reduced range version in 2025 might be as cheap as EUR19,900. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The problem with the future is that it keeps turning into the present. -- Bill Watterson, "Calvin and Hobbes" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Tesla Slipping
On 20 Nov 2023 at 10:14, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > Seems this was tried in France for awhile, and I think it's now all but > gone. (Cheap EV with Battery Lease) Correct. . From 2012 to 2019 Renault sold all their Zoes with leased batteries, except in Norway. That made the car's purchase price roughly comparable to a similarly fitted ICEV Clio. Actually they started EV battery leasing in early 2011 with the now- forgotten Fluence ZE. I don't recall the battery lease costs any more. It was based on the number of km you expected to drive per month, with the option to shift to a different scheme if your driving habits changed. My impression was that for low usage the cost was quite reasonable. Renault wrote into the contract that if the battery capacity dropped below 70% they would fix or replace it, no charge. That eliminated buyer worries about battery life and diminishing capacity, a significant factor when the car was introduced in 2012. It seems to have been successful because until competition ramped up the last few years, the Zoe was usually the best selling EV in Europe. I prefer to own my EV and its battery, but a battery lease can have significant benefits for many people. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = How many spells could a spell Czech check, if a spell Czech could spell cheque? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Bolt Lithium Battery Chemistry for 100% charging?
It seems to me that most BMS algorithms don't allow either full charge or full discharge. They reserve capacity for longer life, and to use as the battery degrades. Our Zoe has a ~56kWh battery with 52kWh usable, so about 4% is reserved. Our garage is freeze and heat-wave resistant, usually 14-22 deg C year round (thick stone walls), so that's good for the battery. I still don't like to let it sit at 100% (~97% actual) for longer than necessary. Normally we just charge to full the night before we take a longish trip. If the car gets down to 20-25% in shorter trips, I charge to between 80 and 90%. The car has no option for such, so I manually stop the charge around 2h before the guessometer thinks it will be full. As I understand it, equalization only happens at 100% indicated. We do that at least once a month, so I'm not too concerned. (Other opinions?) Zoe has going since 2012 and there are lots of examples of older ones retaining 90-98% of factory capacity at well over 100,000km, with no special treatment. I suppose that with the Bolt you don't have quite as long a history to look at. Recently I read of a 2017 Zoe used in taxi service that was at 96% capacity at over 350,000km. Taxis don't sit at 100% for any length of time so I'm sure that helped. That would have been with LG E63 LiPo cells. Our 2020 cells are LiNCM, LG E78, 192 of them, 78ah each. I don't know what difference the chemistry will make, if any.. This scheme might not work for you since you seem to put lots more miles on your EVs than we do, but I suspect that it's possible to overthink these matters. And hey, you'll soon have a nice new battery, no? Congrats on getting your stealer to cooperate. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = You shouldn't have to choose what you want, because we will be able to get enough data to know what you want better than you do. -- viral media company founder Emerson Spartz = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] consumer reports EV reliability
I just ran across this related article . It's apparently from June. https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-new-vehicle-quality-decline-from- technology-study-says-2023-6 Alternate URL: https://v.gd/5qIIM1 The implication seems to be that electrical and mechanical complexity is considered to be responsible for the reliability declines, and current EVs presumably tend to have more "high tech" complexity than ICEVs. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it. -- Dame Edith Sitwell = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Automakers hear China behind them
... and if you've been thinking that you don't really need the long range and humongous size of recent EVs, you might be getting your way soon - at least if you live in Europe. - Fear of cheap Chinese EVs spurs automaker dash for affordable cars By Nick Carey and Paul Lienert December 8, 20236:14 AM UTC Full article: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/fear-cheap-chinese-evs- spurs-automaker-dash-affordable-cars-2023-12-08/ or https://v.gd/OABp6n Excerpts: LONDON/DETROIT, Dec 8 (Reuters) - The rise of inexpensive Chinese electric vehicles has upped the pressure on legacy automakers who have turned to suppliers, from battery materials makers to chipmakers, to squeeze out costs and develop affordable EVs quicker than previously planned. [...] Renault (RENA.PA) said last month it plans 40% cost reductions for its EVs to reach price parity with fossil-fuel models. Stellantis (STLAM.MI) is building a European plant with China's CATL (300750.SZ) to make cheaper LFP batteries and recently unveiled the Citroen electric e-C3 SUV, which starts at 23,300 euros ($24,540). Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) and Tesla (TSLA.O) are developing 25,000-euro EVs. Vincent Pluvinage, CEO of Palo Alto, California-based OneD Battery Sciences, said that on his recent visits with European automaker customers, every meeting started with the same refrain: "'Reducing costs is now more important than anything else.'" [...] GM said it has saved billions partly by developing a more inexpensive battery pack with LFP batteries for its revamped Bolt EV, which will launch in 2025, two years earlier than planned. Ford (F.N) said it will cut costs partly through a 50% increase in "in- sourcing" of parts like batteries and inverters. [...] "What we hear from carmakers today is, 'We don't need longer range, we want lower costs,'" Biton said. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Yogi Berra said, "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." I've collected a lot of silverware that way. -- Mark Stanley, "Freefall" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: mini cooper range [Automakers hear China behind them]
On 9 Dec 2023 at 14:42, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > I suppose for city driving, it will get more range, but I can't imagine > 100 miles of city driving in one day Sure, but you can certainly do that in rural driving on 45-50mph 2-lane roads. A lot of our driving is like that. We usually get close to, sometimes even exceed, the car's advertised WLTP range. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Most members of congress don't see their constituents as peers. They see them as fans. These politicans aren't public servants, they're public embarrassments. -- Brian Karem = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Drive electric for $59 a month
... but only if you live in France. "The new Citroen e-C3, one of the cheapest electric sub-compact models in Europe, has just slid into even sweeter territory for low-income customers in France. Thanks to the government-backed "social leasing" initiative, aimed at giving low-income families a taste of electric mobility, the e-C3 can be had for as little as EUR54 ($59) per month, locking in a three-year contract without the need of a down payment. *** "Additionally, a selection of used cars newer than 42 months old will be available for lease as more affordable alternatives. "The only EV from a non-Stellantis brand confirmed to participate in the program is the upcoming Renault Twingo E-Tech. Given the promised sub-EUR20k ($22k) price tag, it´s likely that the new Twingo will be one of the most affordable options in the program. Additionally, the upcoming Renault 5 E- Tech and the VW ID.2 could also join the pack when they arrive in 2024 and 2025 respectively. *** "To qualify for social leasing, you must be a resident of France, have an annual income of up to EUR15,400 ($16,815), travel more than 8,000 km (4,971 miles) per year, and live at least 15 km (9 miles) away from your workplace." FULL STORY: https://www.carscoops.com/2023/12/how-france-is-bringing-evs-to-low-income- homes-with-monthly-leases-from-e54/ or https://v.gd/xnil5D David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = An app is just a webpage wrapped in enough "intellectual property" to make it a crime to defend yourself against corporate predation. -- Cory Doctorow = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Elon Musk: "We should not demonise oil and gas"
Oil and gas should not be demonised in the medium-term, Elon Musk, the founder of electric car maker Tesla (TSLA.O), said on Saturday, but he also said it was important to reduce carbon emissions to preserve the planet. Musk, speaking at a right-wing political gathering organised by Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni's Brothers of Italy party, said: "Climate change alarm is exaggerated in the short term," adding that the environmental movement may have gone too far, causing people to lose faith in the future. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/oil-gas-should-not-be-demonized-elon- musk-says-2023-12-16/ or https://v.gd/n5ctOQ David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Elon Musk has lost his wife, his kids, his spaceship, and 40 billion dollars. It's like some kind of country music that doesn't even exist yet. -- John Carlsen = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: More bad PR for Tesla
Tesla is getting some rough PR lately. Obviously, there's the "every vehicle" recall that isn't, but is really a remote reprogramming. Then this article landed yesterday: "Tesla drivers are the most accident-prone, according to a LendingTree analysis of 30 car brands. It found that Tesla drivers are involved in more accidents than drivers of any other brand. Tesla drivers had 23.54 accidents per 1,000 drivers. Ram (22.76) and Subaru (20.90) were the only other brands with more than 20 accidents per 1,000 drivers for every brand." Full article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevebanker/2023/12/18/tesla-has-the-highest- accident-rate-of-any-auto-brand/ or https://v.gd/y2FFnb Forbes is pretty careful to not speculate on why. But you can bet that many people outside the Musk-o-verse will say "it's because of Autopilot," while Musket-heads will be more apt to say "not enough owners using Autopilot." Eh, I'm staying out of it. What I wonder about, and WILL mention, is something that the original source sort of takes a whack at and glances off of. Teslas tend to be powerful vehicles. I don't know whether I can say too much about this since I don't own one and have never driven one, but I do know that while ludicrous (Tesla's own word) acceleration can sometimes get you out of trouble fast, it can also get you INTO trouble really fast. Especially if you're young and hormone-addled, and/or drunk or high, and/or just not that skilled a driver. Somehow I strongly doubt that any Tesla software update is going to change that part of the vehicles' behavior. Also, off topic - Ram, yeah, I can see that - but Subaru??? Really? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = In America, anybody can be president. That's one of the risks you take. -- Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: More bad PR for Tesla
On 19 Dec 2023 at 13:13, John Lussmyer via EV wrote: > Did they adjust for miles driven? This seems to be based on insurance claims and/or accident reports, so probably not. On 19 Dec 2023 at 13:23, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: > Of course Tesla vehicles are used *many* more miles (in long daily > commutes) than other vehicles, especially with gas so high in cost. Well ... maybe not. This article https://electrek.co/2023/12/19/tesla-drivers-have-highest-accident-rate- despite-autopilot-claim-lying/ or https://v.gd/HvpsjX says that Tesla owners drive fewer miles per year than the US average - about 10k vs 12k. I agree that it would be interesting to correct for miles driven. But there are other factors to consider and adjust for. How about age? Some of the vehicles with the lowest accident rates are makes which tend to have older owners - Lincoln, Buick, Cadillac, Mercury. Well then, how old? Older people are normally more cautious and stable drivers, but after a certain point their reaction time goes down and their vision dims. Also, older folks normally drive less. And Tesla drivers are younger than those in other makes (link below). So it's complicated. What about sex? Tesla owners lean WAY toward the male side (again, link below). What about owner attitudes? There are stereotypes about BMW owners, for example. There's a Tesla sterotype too, and it's demographically supportable: https://www.themanual.com/auto/study-reveals-tesla-owner-demographics/ What if it turned out (I'm not saying that this is true, just spitballing here) that Tesla owners were more likely than others to have something in common with Elon Musk? By this I mean emotionally stunted, impulsive, angry, thoughless, antisocial. Those aren't qualities that make a safe driver. So again, it's complicated. There have to be reasons that Tesla drivers have more accidents than Toyota drivers. How many of them are the car, and how many the driver? I don't know. You? Regardless of the causes, it's an interesting statistic, not the least for what those kinds of numbers can do to your insurance rates. It's also not the kind of PR that Tesla needs right now. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Work-arounds to Linux systemd problems are so widely in use that when systemd developers try to fix the problems, they break Linux systems by breaking the work-arounds. Some systemd bugs are being used as features by enough distros and users that fixing bugs can cause widespread breakage. Systemd can't be fixed. -- Andy Prough = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Yet more bad PR for Tesla
I just hate seeing thiese dire Tesla news stories piling up. I'm not an engineer or regulator so I can't say anything about their validity. I haven't read any similar reports here on the list. But for sure the negative publicity alone is doing Tesla no good. - >From Reuters again: Tesla blamed drivers for failures of parts it long knew were defective Wheels falling off cars at speed. Suspensions collapsing on brand-new vehicles. Axles breaking under acceleration. Tens of thousands of customers told Tesla about a host of part failures on low-mileage cars. The automaker sought to blame drivers for vehicle `abuse,´ but Tesla documents show it had tracked the chronic `flaws´ and `failures´ for years. * Individual suspension or steering issues with Teslas have been discussed online and in news accounts for years. But the documents, which have not been previously reported, offer the most comprehensive view to date into the scope of the problems and how Tesla handled what its engineers have internally called part "flaws" and "failures." The records and interviews reveal for the first time that the automaker has long known far more about the frequency and extent of the defects than it has disclosed to consumers and safety regulators. * Tesla has blamed frequent failures of several parts on Tesla owners, alleging they abused the cars ... [and] charged customers with out-of- warranty cars to replace parts that Tesla engineers internally called flawed or that they knew had high failure rates. * The records reveal persistent problems with ... upper and lower control arms, and fore and aft links ... half shafts - the left and right drive axles - and steering racks ... * Between 2016 and 2020, Tesla resolved about 400 complaints involving aft- link failures in China ... Tesla redesigned the part four times because the initial revisions did not fully fix the problem, the automaker´s records show. * Tesla delayed a recall for four more years, until Chinese regulators pushed for one ... the automaker never recalled the part in the United States and Europe despite reports of frequent failures globally. Tesla told U.S. regulators the failures were caused by "driver abuse." The company also instructed service centers, in a February 2019 "talking points" memo, to use the same explanation with customers experiencing aft-link failures. They were told to blame "vehicle misuse," such as "hitting a curb or other excessive strong impact." * Tesla owners have filed about 260 complaints with NHTSA over suspension and steering problems this year, compared to about 750 for General Motors and 230 for Toyota. That makes Tesla´s complaint rate far higher when considering the number of GM and Toyota vehicles on the road. GM has a 21% share of U.S. cars in operation; Toyota, 15%. Tesla´s share: less than 1%, according to data analytics firm Experian. * "All I can tell you," the Tesla manager said, "is we´re not a 100-year-old company like GM and Ford. We haven´t worked all the bugs out yet." - Those are just a few highlights (or lowlights if you will). Read the full story: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering- suspension/ or https://v.gd/XaWQzF Keeping in mind that Tesla also trades in the more strongly regulated EU, I sure don't want to see Tesla buried under liability and/or legislative penalties. They could end up sold to Stellantis or GM, or even BYD or Geely.. I'm concerned that that's where they're headed. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I found one day in school a boy of medium size ill-treating a smaller boy. I expostulated, but he replied: "The bigs hit me, so I hit the babies; that's fair." In these words he epitomized the history of the human race. -- Bertrand Russell, "Education and the Social Order" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Yet more bad PR for Tesla
On 20 Dec 2023 at 19:31, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote: > Problems with these control arms have been known to Tesla for years, > but they didnTMt redesign them for years. We were charged $197.02 to > replace a component that was known to be faulty. So much for the > makers of Tesla having the safest cars on the road. You have to wonder what they were thinking, or if they were thinking at all. I'd hate to imagine that they made a crassly commercial boardroom decision like Ford did with the Pinto. Remember that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mqu-gRqt3g Ford decided that it was cheaper to pay off the relatives of people who died in rear-ended Pintos than it would be to redesign the car's gas tank. I can't even imagine that kind of inhumanity, but we're talking about Elon Musk here, so who knows? On 20 Dec 2023 at 21:14, EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote: > So in just in a year Toyota has had recalls for 3,651,000 cars. > Globally, Toyota sold around 10.48 million vehicles between January > and December 2022, so their 2023 number should be similar. That means > that about 34% of their vehicles had recalls... I think that to be really fair, you'd have to look at the total number of Toyota recalls vs the total number of Toyote vehicles currently on the road, and the total number of Tesla recalls vs the total number of Tesla vehicles on the road. I'm kind of busy and don't have time to run those numbers right now. Maybe someone else will have the time to run the stats, or maybe I can do it later. Another factor to consider is how Toyota handled them, vs Tesla. Someone please correct my memory if need be, but IIRC Toyota did fight the stuck- Prius-accelerator recall, then eventually knuckled under and made some minor changes in the car. OTOH when the same cars (and maybe other Toyotas) had problems with the brake actuator, they extended the warranty on that part and fixed most of them for free, even on old cars. That seems to contrast with Tesla blaming drivers for suspension failures, and charging them for the repairs. I'll tell ya right now, if Renault did that to me here, I'd never buy another Renault. So safety aside, it's good business for Tesla to stand behind their cars Now mind you, it's possible that Tesla actually did fix many of the suspension and driveline failures for free, but we only hear about the ones that they didn't. Japan has a strong culture of shame for failures. I've not seen any indication that Elon Musk ever feels any shame for ANYTHING. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals, and lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation. -- Johnny Hart = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Would you crack your Tesla's Autopilot?
The article calls it an "attack," but that's wrong. It's a hardware crack that requires physical access to the car, probably a fair bit of disassembly, and decent technical skills. This crack would probably void the warranty. It might earn the owner Elon's wrath and punishment, maybe to the extent of having the car factory-bricked. So I doubt that many Tesla owners will try it. Still, it's not that hard to imagine that some would - some because they want to master the machine; some for the social media views and profit; some just because they can. If you're a Tesla owner, would you? Will you? Why or why not? And given the fact that physical access is necessary, does this say anything significant about Tesla's data security? - Berlin researchers hacked Tesla autopilot to unlock "Elon mode" Updated on: December 29, 2023 12:38 PM Three IT security researchers from Technische Universitaet Berlin (TU Berlin) glitched Tesla's driving assistant into activating a powerful "Elon mode" and were able to access the company's secrets, [German news magazine Der] Spiegel reported. Allegedly, all Tesla models are vulnerable to this attack. With tools that cost around 600 euros, TU Berlin students Christian Werling, Niclas Kühnapfel, and Hans-Niklas Jacob induced a short two-second voltage drop by 560 millivolts and rooted the ARM64-based circuit board of Tesla's autopilot. The voltage glitch enabled researchers to extract arbitrary code and user data from the system, including cryptographic keys and important system parts, allowing them to reconstruct how it works ... The "Elon mode" ... allows Tesla vehicles to self-drive without any driver input or monitoring ... [The modification] could also enable premium features for free ... [and] requires physical access to the circuit board, removing and reinstalling it without damage, and soldering skills. Full story: https://cybernews.com/tech/berlin-researchers-hacked-tesla-autopilot/ Original Der Spiegel article https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/gadgets/tesla-berliner-hacker-knacken-den- autopilot-a-792d7095-e7ce-4ead-96af-11feec00761a Unfortunately the Speigel article is paywalled. Here's another open-access story based on that article. https://24hoursworlds.com/automobile/611051/ David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Curdled milk, made after a Bulgarian recipe and called "yaghurt," is now a Parisian fad and is believed to be a remedy against growing old. A correspondent who has tried it says he would prefer to die young. -- The Elk Falls Journal, 1905 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] EVLN: Europe in BYD's sights
And not just selling them here, but building them here. (Interesting that the phrase "in BYD's sights" popped into my head for this post, but I digress.) The lead (IMO) is buried at the end of this CNN story: "BYD sent a big delegation to a car show in Germany last September. A spokesman said then that the company was aiming to double the number of dealer partners in Europe in 2023 and was targeting overseas sales of 250,000, up from about 56,000 in 2022. "Last month, it announced it would build an EV factory in Hungary, which would be its first passenger car plant in Europe. It already has a bus factory in Komárom, Hungary." The main drift of the story is that BYD outsold Tesla in the last quarter of 2023, but I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned here before that they were on track to do so. Full story: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/02/cars/china-byd-ev-sales-increase-tesla- intl-hnk/index.html or https://cntp.me/9QpI366 David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Only time will tell if we stand the test of time. -- Eddie van Halen, "Why Can't This be Love" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
