subject:"\[FairfieldLife\] Re\: Why does T\/M cost so much to join\? A little help\?"

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
wrote:

> > > For the record, my experience is that the realization
> > > that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
> > > there's no intervening intention to think it.
> > 
> > My own belief is that this is ALWAYS the case, but we may not be 
> > aware of it, at least at first, due to our inexperience with 
> > subtler states of the thinking process.
> 
> That's *exactly* what I think.

To elaborate a bit: I don't think one ever "receives"
a mantra (at least a bija mantra of the kind TM uses).
I think the bija mantras are something like resonant
frequencies of the "sound" of paying attention (or the
"process of observation"), which are always present on
subtle levels of the mind; and that one's attention is
called to one of these frequencies on the gross level
of speech by the teacher when one is initiated.

To put one's attention on the mantra is thus, in effect,
to pay attention *to the paying of attention*.  Or to
put it another way, one is observing the process of
observation itself; the process of observation becomes
the object of observation.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > [I wrote:]
> > >
> > > > > When the discussion started, the issue was (1).  Vaj
> > > > > had claimed that TMATBMMY required effort.  Lawson
> > > > > and I were disputing that claim.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vaj said:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
> > > > > > appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-
> japa/TM:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind 
with
> > > > > > respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
> > > > > > distraction."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global 
> > > > > > conditioned 'familiarity' is with the mantra and "non-
> > > > > > distraction" would refer to the vyuttana or outward,
> > > > > > distracted tendency of the "outward stroke". Since this 
so 
> > > > > > precisely and accurately applies, what else need be said?
> > > 
> > > One gains mindfulness through the practice of TM.
> > > One gains non-forgetfulness through the practice of TM.
> > 
> > Exactly.  In the context of TM, the quote would apply
> > as a DEscription, not a PREscription.
> > 
> > > Experiencing subltle states of the mantra, requires the letting 
> go 
> > > of effort.
> > 
> > However, this should not be understood to mean
> > that we make an effort to let go!
> > 
> > > We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
> > > or slips away. We take it as it comes.
> > > We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize 
we
> > > are off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just 
> the 
> > > intention to "think" the mantra is enough. We never have to 
think 
> > > the mantra 'clearly'.
> > 
> > For the record, my experience is that the realization
> > that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
> > there's no intervening intention to think it.
> 
> My own belief is that this is ALWAYS the case, but we may not be 
> aware of it, at least at first, due to our inexperience with 
> subtler states of the thinking process.

That's *exactly* what I think.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, defenders_of_bhakti 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > > We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
> > > or slips away. We take it as it comes.
> > > We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize 
we
> > > are off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just 
the 
> > > intention to "think" the mantra is enough. We never have to 
think 
> > > the mantra 'clearly'.
> > 
> > For the record, my experience is that the realization
> > that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
> > there's no intervening intention to think it.
> 
> IOW you are NOT DOING it - you realize it's just HAPPENING BY 
ITSELF,
> once you have started. The Mantra comes by itself, it goes by 
itself,
> and it returns by itself,once the awareness of no-mantra came by
> itself. That, I suppose is your experience - spontaneaus meditation,
> just happening by itself.

Yup.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread defenders_of_bhakti

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>

> Philisophical point: is it possible for someone in CC to practice 
> anything OTHER THAN Transcendental Meditation?

Completely depends on your definition of TM: If you define TM from the
result, i.e. transcending, then he is doing it. If you define it from
the POV of spontaneity, that is, all meditation that is completely
spontaneaus is TM, then he is doing it all the time. If you define it
from its technicalites, like using a specific Mantra etc, doing it 20
min twice a day, he's probably not doing it most of the time.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, defenders_of_bhakti 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > > We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
> > > or slips away. We take it as it comes.
> > > We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize 
we
> > > are off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just 
the 
> > > intention to "think" the mantra is enough. We never have to 
think 
> > > the mantra 'clearly'.
> > 
> > For the record, my experience is that the realization
> > that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
> > there's no intervening intention to think it.
> 
> IOW you are NOT DOING it - you realize it's just HAPPENING BY 
ITSELF,
> once you have started. The Mantra comes by itself, it goes by 
itself,
> and it returns by itself,once the awareness of no-mantra came by
> itself. That, I suppose is your experience - spontaneaus meditation,
> just happening by itself.
>

Philisophical point: is it possible for someone in CC to practice 
anything OTHER THAN Transcendental Meditation?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" 
>  wrote:
> 
> [I wrote:]
> >
> > > > When the discussion started, the issue was (1).  Vaj
> > > > had claimed that TMATBMMY required effort.  Lawson
> > > > and I were disputing that claim.
> > > >
> > > > Vaj said:
> > > >
> > > > > I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
> > > > > appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-
japa/TM:
> > > > >
> > > > > "What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
> > > > > respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
> > > > > distraction."
> > > > >
> > > > > In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global 
> > > > > conditioned 'familiarity' is with the mantra and "non-
> > > > > distraction" would refer to the vyuttana or outward,
> > > > > distracted tendency of the "outward stroke". Since this so 
> > > > > precisely and accurately applies, what else need be said?
> > 
> > One gains mindfulness through the practice of TM.
> > One gains non-forgetfulness through the practice of TM.
> 
> Exactly.  In the context of TM, the quote would apply
> as a DEscription, not a PREscription.
> 
> > Experiencing subltle states of the mantra, requires the letting 
go 
> > of effort.
> 
> However, this should not be understood to mean
> that we make an effort to let go!
> 
> > We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
> > or slips away. We take it as it comes.
> > We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize we
> > are off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just 
the 
> > intention to "think" the mantra is enough. We never have to think 
> > the mantra 'clearly'.
> 
> For the record, my experience is that the realization
> that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
> there's no intervening intention to think it.
>

My own belief is that this is ALWAYS the case, but we may not be 
aware of it, at least at first, due to our inexperience with subtler 
states of the thinking process.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread defenders_of_bhakti

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
> > or slips away. We take it as it comes.
> > We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize we
> > are off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just the 
> > intention to "think" the mantra is enough. We never have to think 
> > the mantra 'clearly'.
> 
> For the record, my experience is that the realization
> that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
> there's no intervening intention to think it.

IOW you are NOT DOING it - you realize it's just HAPPENING BY ITSELF,
once you have started. The Mantra comes by itself, it goes by itself,
and it returns by itself,once the awareness of no-mantra came by
itself. That, I suppose is your experience - spontaneaus meditation,
just happening by itself.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[I wrote:]
>
> > > When the discussion started, the issue was (1).  Vaj
> > > had claimed that TMATBMMY required effort.  Lawson
> > > and I were disputing that claim.
> > >
> > > Vaj said:
> > >
> > > > I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
> > > > appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
> > > >
> > > > "What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
> > > > respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
> > > > distraction."
> > > >
> > > > In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global 
> > > > conditioned 'familiarity' is with the mantra and "non-
> > > > distraction" would refer to the vyuttana or outward,
> > > > distracted tendency of the "outward stroke". Since this so 
> > > > precisely and accurately applies, what else need be said?
> 
> One gains mindfulness through the practice of TM.
> One gains non-forgetfulness through the practice of TM.

Exactly.  In the context of TM, the quote would apply
as a DEscription, not a PREscription.

> Experiencing subltle states of the mantra, requires the letting go 
> of effort.

However, this should not be understood to mean
that we make an effort to let go!

> We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
> or slips away. We take it as it comes.
> We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize we
> are off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just the 
> intention to "think" the mantra is enough. We never have to think 
> the mantra 'clearly'.

For the record, my experience is that the realization
that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
there's no intervening intention to think it.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread Robert Gimbel

 
 When the discussion started, the issue was (1).  Vaj
had claimed that TMATBMMY required effort.  Lawson
and I were disputing that claim.

Vaj said:

> I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
> appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
>
> "What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
> respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
> distraction."
>
> In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global conditioned 'familiarity'
> is with the mantra and "non-distraction" would refer to the
> vyuttana or outward, distracted tendency of the "outward stroke".
> Since this so precisely and accurately applies, what else need be
> said?

One gains mindfulness through the practice of TM.
One gains non-forgetfulness through the practice of TM.
Experiencing subltle states of the mantra, requires the letting go of 
effort. We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
or slips away. We take it as it comes.
We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize we are 
off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just the 
intention to "think" the mantra is enough. We never have to think the 
mantra 'clearly'.
The whole practice of TM is to develope mindfulness of the whole 
process, inward stroke and refining of the mantra, outward stroke- 
realizing we're off on a thought and just the intention of coming 
back to the mantra. And the experience of no mantra/no thought- non-
forgetfulness of pure consciousness or the "Light of God", a term 
Maharishi has been using lately, harmonizing with the Christian 
teaching of the "Kingdom of Heaven Within.
Also, the sychrony of brain function, left and right hemispheres, 
becoming in sync, provides the whole brain functioning that produces 
the experience of mindfulness, the experience of non-forgetfullness...
Eckart Tolle mentions some simple techniques in his writings also;
He says just being aware the energy flowing through the body, or just 
being aware of the breath- he says the whole point is to bring the 
attention away from the mind- to just innocently watch the breath- 
how it just goes by itself, or to just feel the energy in the body.
Feeling the body is also an instruction of Maharishi's, when there is 
an overpowering thought, and it's difficult to think the mantra 
effortlessly; and that allowing the attention to be drawn to an area 
of the body which seems to be the source of the tension of release, 
can facilitate the release of the unwinding of the physical area or 
emotion held there...







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 16, 2006, at 10:13 AM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > Note that to start with, Vaj had claimed that "focus"
> > was the "official" movement translation of "dharana."
> > When I asked where this official translation was to be
> > found, he switched to claiming "steadiness" was the
> > term TMers used for "dharana."  When I said this was
> > nonsense, he produces a quote, apparently intending to
> > suggest he is documenting the use of "steadiness" as
> > a translation of "dharana," when it isn't a translation
> > to begin with and doesn't even refer to meditation.
> 
> No, merely commenting on your belief that the word steadiness was
> not used in connection with tm/tmers.

If that's in fact what you were commenting on, you were
commenting on your own hallucination.  I never said or
suggested any such thing.

> He may or may not be referring to dharana in this instance--I 
> don't really care--it certainly fits experientially for those 
> familiar with this state of steadiness and inner focus. However he 
> clearly uses that word in his own translation of the yoga-sutra of 
> Patanjali as a description of dharana.

In connection with the TM-Sidhis, not plain-vanilla
TM, as I already pointed out.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:

> > > > That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)
> > > 
> > > Or yours.
> > 
> > Well, dude...I'm not the one up at 3:44 a.m. ranting
> > on the Internet, feeling obviously threatened just
> > because someone has proposed a different theory about 
> > meditation than the one he believes in...  :-)
> 
> Huh. The fact that Ihave trouble sleeping at night is construed as a 
> sign of what? Cult paranoia? OK, sure.

This discussion is making *me* sleepy, and it's 11:50
in the morning...

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:

> > They don't have to accept ANY dogma about TM, but if they start 
> > assigning greater significance to one set of experiences over 
> > another, then by definition, they are no longer practicing TM.
> 
> ONLY if they act on it.

"Assigning greater significance to one set of
experiences over another" *IS* acting on it.

"Assigning" is an action, dude.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[Lawson wrote:]
> > Nope, but I argue that theory and practice during TM 
> > are inseparable. 
> 
> In other words, in your opinion, belief in the
> theory of how TM works is *essential* for it to
> be practiced properly. Did I get this right?

Barry, *collect yourself*, for pete's sake.  Lawson
went on immediately to say *no* theory was necessary
to practice TM properly:

> > You can practice TM without ANY kind of theory, but 
> > any acceptable theory from a TM technique perspective 
> > needs to explain things in terms of the practice -- 
> > that is, the innocence of the technique.
> 
> But it's just THEORY, man. And, according to the
> very way TM is taught, *not* essential to the
> proper practice of TM.

Right, THAT'S WHAT LAWSON JUST SAID: YOU CAN PRACTICE
TM WITHOUT ANY KIND OF THEORY.

(Just BTW, that you can practice TM without any
kind of theory *is part of the theory*.)

> In every TM lecture they
> emphasize that you don't have to believe in 
> *anything* for TM to work properly. And yet here
> you are stating the opposite...that "proper belief"
> is *essential* to practicing it properly.

Nope, wrongaroonie.  You aren't paying attention,
as usual.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > [...]
> > > > Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.
> > > 
> > > So? You have a *theory* as to what constitutes an 
> > > effective meditation session. that *theory* just 
> > > "happens" to be the same one that was TOLD to you 
> > > by your TM teachers. Vaj has a different theory. 
> > > You tried to imply that this means he "never really 
> > > learned TM."
> > > 
> > > You really *don't* GET this, do you?
> > 
> > I don't think YOU "get" it: when a technique is meant 
> > to be easy, innocent, etc., theories that portray one 
> > set of experiences as being better than another set, 
> > detract from the *innocence* of the technique. 
> 
> ONLY if one ACTS on those theories. Otherwise,
> they're just theories.
> 
> Your position seems to be that a person who
> believes as we do has NO CHOICE but to act
> on them.

It would be virtually impossible not to "act" on
them, i.e., to exert some subtle effort to have
*this* experience rather than *that* experience
during meditation.

In fact, you would have to exert effort *not* to
exert effort.

 And your further theory seems to
> be that a TMer *has* to believe all the dogma
> and theory that was taught to them about TM
> to be "really" practicing TM. They don't.

To practice TM as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,
you have to follow the instructions given by
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, one of which is not to
value one experience over another.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:

> > sure, whatever. But once you start assigning value 
> > judgements to one set of experiences over another, 
> > you're no longer practicing TM.
> 
> Read my lips: I NO LONGER PRACTICE TM.  :-)

Non sequitur/straw man.

*If* one assigns value judgments to one set of 
experiences over another, one is no longer
practicing TM.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:

> > > There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
> > > doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
> > > they didn't hear and understand the same things you
> > > did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
> > > were parroting what they were told to say. It just
> > > means that the other person has chosen not to take
> > > what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
> > > *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
> > > expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
> > > And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
> > > or your own opinions unless you allow it to.
> > 
> > Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value 
> > judgements to one particular experience over another, 
> > you're no longer practicing TM.
> 
> NOT NECESSARILY.

Yes, NECESSARILY.  TM as taught by Maharishi Mahesh
Yogi does not involve assigning value judgments to
one particular experience over another.

 Vaj, as far as I know, DOES NOT 
> PRACTICE TM. Neither do I. What we believe about
> meditation and what makes a meditation session
> effective doesn't affect TM in the slightest.

Non sequitur/straw man, as is the rest of your
rant. Nobody suggested that what you and Vaj believe
affects TM.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:36 AM, sparaig wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Huh, but one can have the "outward stroke" for the full 
> > > > > > 20 minutes of TM practice and still be practicing TM 
> > > > > > absolutely correctly.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Good luck with that!
> > > > 
> > > > So Judy and I have been correct: you really never learned TM, 
> > > > regardless of what classes/courses you took on the subject.
> > > 
> > > So you believe that to have "learned TM" properly,
> > > you have to believe all the *dogma* about TM that
> > > was taught to you?
> > > 
> > > That's what you're saying, in effect. What you've
> > > just said isn't about the mechanics of TM, but
> > > about what you were told in the lectures *about*
> > > TM. It's THEORY. Vaj has a *different* theory,
> > > based on his subsequent experience. I think that
> > > in the biz, that's known as an OPINION.  :-)
> > 
> > Theoretical or not, I was taught that that particular experience 
> > during TM practice was just as valid as any other. Vaj was 
> > implying (and later clarified) that its not a good experience.
> 
> Or possibly not the most effective experience. Yes,
> he did. And that is his OPINION, based on experience
> with TM and with other techniques, and with a wide
> range of teachings. Him believing that does NOT
> imply that he "really never learned TM."
> 
> Do you GET this, man? He could have learned exactly
> as you did, believed it for years, and then *changed
> his mind*, coming to a different conclusion, right?

Two different issues are getting confused here: (1)
what TM as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi involves,
and (2) to what degree TMATBMMY is effective.

When the discussion started, the issue was (1).  Vaj
had claimed that TMATBMMY required effort.  Lawson
and I were disputing that claim.

Vaj said:

> I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
> appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
>
> "What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
> respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
> distraction."
>
> In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global conditioned 'familiarity'
> is with the mantra and "non-distraction" would refer to the
> vyuttana or outward, distracted tendency of the "outward stroke". 
> Since this so precisely and accurately applies, what else need be 
> said?

Vaj *appeared* to be saying here that TMATBMMY required
"mindfulness," in the sense of exerting effort not to
"forget" the mantra, suggesting this so obviously applies
to TMATBMMY that nothing else need be said.

At this point Lawson noted that according to TMATBMMY,
it was perfectly OK to be lost in thought throughout
the TM session--in other words, that "mindfulness"
does *not* apply to TMATBMMY.

Vaj's "Good luck with that" response either (A) meant
that being lost in thought was *not* OK per TMATBMMY,
or (B) that practicing TMATBMMY was not going to 
produce results as good as those from a technique
involving "mindfulness."

(A) would simply be incorrect; (B) would be a non
sequitur, or at best a change of subject, a different
issue entirely from that of whether TMATBMMY involves
effort.

(B) would *also* appear to be an admission on Vaj's
part that his "mindfulness" quote does *not* apply
to TMATBMMY, completely contrary to his earlier assertion
that the quote "precisely and accurately applies."

In saying Vaj never learned TM properly, Lawson was
assuming Vaj meant (A), not (B).

*You*, Barry, are assuming that Lawson understood
Vaj to be saying (B) and are chastising him for
insisting that TM "dogma" is *correct*, when he was
merely pointing out what TM "dogma" IS.

You make this mistake ALL THE TIME.

> > > Are you so weak in your *own* practice that you
> > > have to suggest that anyone who doesn't believe
> > > the same dogma you believe is "doing TM wrong?"
> > 
> > What dogma? The dogma that says that any ole experience 
> > during TM practice is as good as any other?
> 
> YES!!!  That is dogma. You were TAUGHT this. WE, as
> TM teachers, taught it to you. It isn't necessarily
> Truth, with a capital 'T.' It's just what we were
> taught to say. I believed it at the time, when I said
> it. I no longer do. That doesn't mean that I "really
> never learned TM." Do you GET this distinction?

It might well mean you never learned TMATBMMY properly.
It might well mean you believed the "dogma," but
because you weren't *experiencing* effortlessness, not
having quite gotten the knack of it, you later decided
the "dogma" that TM is effortless was wrong.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
> He may or may not be referring to dharana in this instance--I don't  
> really care--it certainly fits experientially for those familiar 
with  
> this state of steadiness and inner focus. However he clearly uses  
> that word in his own translation of the yoga-sutra of Patanjali as a  
> description of dharana. 

Where does he do this?

It is actually helpful if you can trace such  
> movement buzzwords to their original Sanskrit, as it can tell you a  
> lot more, esp. since they are often used in rather nebulous ways.
>

Perhaps it can, but again, where does he use "steadiness of mind" when 
translating dharana?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
> > wrote:
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of 
> the 
> > > > > > > > technique, though of course *I* believe that the 
> innocent 
> > > > > > > > technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.
> > > > > 
> > > > > That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)
> > > > 
> > > > Or yours.
> > > 
> > > Well, dude...I'm not the one up at 3:44 a.m. ranting
> > > on the Internet, feeling obviously threatened just
> > > because someone has proposed a different theory about 
> > > meditation than the one he believes in...  :-)
> > 
> > Huh. The fact that Ihave trouble sleeping at night is 
> > construed as a sign of what? Cult paranoia? OK, sure.
> 
> I've heard that insomnia is often a side effect
> of lack of focus in meditation. 
> 
> Joke, dude.  Joke.
> 
> ;-)
>

Actually, in Tm terms, it might be the other way around: lack of 
proper sleep can lead to dullness in meditation...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:
> > > 
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
> > > > > > Where is this "official movement translation of the
> > > > > > term" to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
> > > > >
> > > > > "Steadiness" is a popular TMer word for dharana.
> > > >
> > > > Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.
> > > 
> > > Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether 
> > > regions!
> > > 
> > > "Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness
> > > thus depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind." -MMY
> > > 
> > > More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!
> > 
> > Is this a translation of a Sanskrit phrase where "steadiness of
> > mind" means dharana?
> 
> It isn't even a translation; it's from MMY's commentary
> on the Gita II:66, as Bob noted.  The term "dharana"
> occurs nowhere in the verse he's commenting on.
> 
> And in this specific sentence, in context, MMY isn't
> referring to meditation but the *fruit* of meditation
> in activity.
> 
> Note that to start with, Vaj had claimed that "focus"
> was the "official" movement translation of "dharana."
> When I asked where this official translation was to be
> found, he switched to claiming "steadiness" was the
> term TMers used for "dharana."  When I said this was
> nonsense, he produces a quote, apparently intending to
> suggest he is documenting the use of "steadiness" as
> a translation of "dharana," when it isn't a translation
> to begin with and doesn't even refer to meditation.
> 
> And he's accusing me of lacking "focus of mind"?
>

Gotcha (now what were we talking about?*)

*ADHD reference goes here.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
> wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
> wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of 
the 
> > > > > > > technique, though of course *I* believe that the 
innocent 
> > > > > > > technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.
> > > > 
> > > > That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)
> > > 
> > > Or yours.
> > 
> > Well, dude...I'm not the one up at 3:44 a.m. ranting
> > on the Internet, feeling obviously threatened just
> > because someone has proposed a different theory about 
> > meditation than the one he believes in...  :-)
> 
> Huh. The fact that Ihave trouble sleeping at night is 
> construed as a sign of what? Cult paranoia? OK, sure.

I've heard that insomnia is often a side effect
of lack of focus in meditation. 

Joke, dude.  Joke.

;-)







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the 
> > > > > > technique, though of course *I* believe that the innocent 
> > > > > > technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.
> > > > 
> > > > Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.
> > > 
> > > That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)
> > 
> > Or yours.
> 
> Well, dude...I'm not the one up at 3:44 a.m. ranting
> on the Internet, feeling obviously threatened just
> because someone has proposed a different theory about 
> meditation than the one he believes in...  :-)
>

Huh. The fact that Ihave trouble sleeping at night is construed as a 
sign of what? Cult paranoia? OK, sure.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread Vaj

On Mar 16, 2006, at 10:13 AM, authfriend wrote:

> Note that to start with, Vaj had claimed that "focus"
> was the "official" movement translation of "dharana."
> When I asked where this official translation was to be
> found, he switched to claiming "steadiness" was the
> term TMers used for "dharana."  When I said this was
> nonsense, he produces a quote, apparently intending to
> suggest he is documenting the use of "steadiness" as
> a translation of "dharana," when it isn't a translation
> to begin with and doesn't even refer to meditation.

No, merely commenting on your belief that the word steadiness was not  
used in connection with tm/tmers.

He may or may not be referring to dharana in this instance--I don't  
really care--it certainly fits experientially for those familiar with  
this state of steadiness and inner focus. However he clearly uses  
that word in his own translation of the yoga-sutra of Patanjali as a  
description of dharana. It is actually helpful if you can trace such  
movement buzzwords to their original Sanskrit, as it can tell you a  
lot more, esp. since they are often used in rather nebulous ways.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> >
> > > > > > In any
> > > > > > style of meditation where you have an object of focus
> > > > >
> > > > > Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.
> > > > 
> > > > In terms of process, it is the point you return to 
> > > > irregardless.  
> > > > Focus here being an english trans. of the Sanskrit "dharana" 
> or  
> > > > "focus of attention" in the "official" movement translation 
of 
> > > > the word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed 
> > > > you would be conversant in their language. Apparently that is 
> > > > not the case.
> > > 
> > > But, what mantra do you return to?
> > 
> > You don't have to be so TM-centric and bigoted, man.
> > Many techniques of meditation don't even *use* a
> > mantra. But you still "come back to" something.
> 
> I'm aware that many techniques don't use a mantra. I was referring 
to 
> the assumption that one knows what one's mantra is in the first 
> placein the sense that most people would think of "knowing." As 
like 
> as not, my "mantra" is often a vague hum that is only identifiable 
> as "my mantra" because its the most convenient label handy for 
> whatever it is.
> 
> > 
> > IMO it isn't the mantra per se that enables
> > TM to work; it's the "coming back to, " the element
> > of focus (even if it's "soft focus," as in TM). The 
> > choice of TM mantras was come to by trial and error, 
> > and changed radically during MMY's early years. You
> > can find them in many books, and chances are that's
> > where Maharishi found them. There is nothing partic-
> > ularly magical about them.
> 
> IMO, its the *process* that enables TM to "work." 
> 
> > 
> > In other words, you responded to Vaj's point with
> > a non-sequitur intended to dismiss it and suggest 
> > that TM is "best." Again. And again, you're better 
> > than that.
> > 
> 
> In other words, you responded to MYpoint with a non-sequitur 
designed 
> to prove that you and Vaj are correct and I am wrong.
> 
> > Just my two centimes...I'm just trying to suggest
> > that there is room for people to believe different
> > things about meditation and how it works. Chances
> > are that *none* of them are correct. Acting as if
> > one is correct and all others are incorrect seems
> > to me a great way to develop a lot of negative
> > karma, not to evolve.
> > 
> 
> Whatever. We were talking about the ole "Transcendental Meditation 
as 
> taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi." Vaj and you both indicate that 
you 
> have not only different beliefs about what makes TM work, but 
> different beliefs about what TM *IS* in the first place. Which goes 
> back to MY point that any "theory" that attempts to explain TM must 
> preserve the anything goes/effortlessness nature of the technique, 
or 
> it morphs into something else.
> 
> > 
> > > Insomuch as TM involves awareness, then you can say its 
> > > mindfulness. Beyond that, depends on the definition of 
> > > mindfulness. 
> > 
> > Correct. Earlier, I used a more limited definition of 
> > mindfulness; but as Vaj and others here seem to be using
> > it, it's a term that applies to the application of
> > selective attention, period. As such, I would have to
> > agree that most forms of meditation, including TM, fall
> > into that category.
> > 
> 
> ONly within the most vague and open-ended definition of "selective 
> attention."
> 
> > > As I pointed 
> > > out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking 
> > > the mantra once and being distracted by internal/external 
> > > phenomena for the next 20 minutes.
> > > 
> > > You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation 
> > > session, or so your "good luck with that" response suggests.
> > 
> > I don't think Vaj ever suggested that sitting lost in 
> > thought wasn't "valid." As I read what he said, he's
> > suggesting that IN HIS OPINION it isn't particularly
> > *effective*. I would agree. That doesn't mean that we
> > didn't understand or "get" the TM dogma that surrounds
> > this issue, merely that we don't buy it.
> 
> Fair enough, but *I* buyit becuase it DOES seem to work quite 
> effectively for little ole ADHD me.
> 
> > 
> > There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
> > doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
> > they didn't hear and understand the same things you
> > did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
> > were parroting what they were told to say. It just
> > means that the other person has chosen not to take
> > what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
> > *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
> > expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
> > And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
> > or your own opinions unless you allow it to.
> 
> Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value judgements to 
> one particular experience over anot

[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >
> > On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:
> > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
> > > > > Where is this "official movement translation of the
> > > > > term" to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
> > > >
> > > > "Steadiness" is a popular TMer word for dharana.
> > >
> > > Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.
> > 
> > Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether 
> > regions!
> > 
> > "Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness
> > thus depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind." -MMY
> > 
> > More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!
> 
> Is this a translation of a Sanskrit phrase where "steadiness of
> mind" means dharana?

It isn't even a translation; it's from MMY's commentary
on the Gita II:66, as Bob noted.  The term "dharana"
occurs nowhere in the verse he's commenting on.

And in this specific sentence, in context, MMY isn't
referring to meditation but the *fruit* of meditation
in activity.

Note that to start with, Vaj had claimed that "focus"
was the "official" movement translation of "dharana."
When I asked where this official translation was to be
found, he switched to claiming "steadiness" was the
term TMers used for "dharana."  When I said this was
nonsense, he produces a quote, apparently intending to
suggest he is documenting the use of "steadiness" as
a translation of "dharana," when it isn't a translation
to begin with and doesn't even refer to meditation.

And he's accusing me of lacking "focus of mind"?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the 
> > > > > technique, though of course *I* believe that the innocent 
> > > > > technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
> > > > 
> > > > I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.
> > > 
> > > Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.
> > 
> > That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)
> 
> Or yours.

Well, dude...I'm not the one up at 3:44 a.m. ranting
on the Internet, feeling obviously threatened just
because someone has proposed a different theory about 
meditation than the one he believes in...  :-)

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
> > wrote:
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  
wrote:
> > > > > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid 
> > > > > > > meditation
> > > > > > > session, or so your "good luck with that" response 
> suggests.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a 
> > > > > > valid  
> > > > > > meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What 
> that 
> > > > > > will  
> > > > > > actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long 
> enough--
> > > > > > which  
> > > > > > actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this 
> > > > > > technique.
> > > > > 
> > > > > For what it's worth, I actually agree with Vaj here.
> > > > > That does *not* mean that I didn't "learn TM properly,"
> > > > > merely that nearly 40 years of meditation practice
> > > > > have suggested other ways of seeing the situation to
> > > > > me that I tend to believe more than the dogma that is
> > > > > taught in the TM organization.
> > > > 
> > > > sure, whatever. But once you start assigning value 
> > > > judgements to one set of experiences over another, 
> > > > you're no longer practicing TM.
> > > 
> > > Read my lips: I NO LONGER PRACTICE TM.  :-)
> > > 
> > > But what you're saying isn't true. When it comes to
> > > driving an automobile, I happen to believe that the
> > > speed limits imposed by the French govenment are
> > > about ten kilometers per hour too slow. I definitely
> > > assign a value judgement to that belief. I value 
> > > driving faster more than I value driving at a rate
> > > I consider too slow for traffic conditions. But that
> > > doesn't prevent me from driving below the posted
> > > speed limit *most of the time* because that behavior
> > > saves me a great deal of money that I would otherwise 
> > > spend on speeding fines.
> > > 
> > > You seem to be saying that the fact that I assign
> > > a value judgement to my belief about what the 
> > > proper speed limit should be and prefer one way
> > > of driving over another, that I have NO CHOICE 
> > > other than to drive faster than that.
> > > 
> > > Your mind may work that way, but mine doesn't...
> > >
> > 
> > But TM helps the mind to stop working so hard. You're addicted to 
> > having the mind work all the time, obviously...
> 
> TM is to transcend thought; Mindfullness occurs in TM when one 
> transcends, and becomes mindful of the self.
>  Mindfulness is there the whole time with continued practice: it's 
> there during both the inward and ourward stroke of meditation; when 
> thinking the mantra, or when noticing you're off on a thought and 
> coming back to the mantra; or noticing that your just quietly 
settled 
> in the mindfull state of transcendental consciousness, of no-
> mantra/no thought.
> The whole point of meditation is to get beyond thought.   
>   
> If one is to become familiar with the infinite, then what does one 
> focus on? 
> What object can the mind focus on to become infinite? 
> The mind focuses on the mantra, and then let's go.
> When one let's go completely then awareness arives at the infinite.
>

That may be what happens (or not) but its not the "point" of TM 
practice.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
> > wrote:
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
> > wrote:
> > > > [...]
> > > > > > Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.
> > > > > 
> > > > > So? You have a *theory* as to what constitutes an 
> > > > > effective meditation session. that *theory* just 
> > > > > "happens" to be the same one that was TOLD to you 
> > > > > by your TM teachers. Vaj has a different theory. 
> > > > > You tried to imply that this means he "never really 
> > > > > learned TM."
> > > > > 
> > > > > You really *don't* GET this, do you?
> > > > 
> > > > I don't think YOU "get" it: when a technique is meant 
> > > > to be easy, innocent, etc., theories that portray one 
> > > > set of experiences as being better than another set, 
> > > > detract from the *innocence* of the technique. 
> > > 
> > > ONLY if one ACTS on those theories. Otherwise,
> > > they're just theories.
> > > 
> > > Your position seems to be that a person who
> > > believes as we do has NO CHOICE but to act
> > > on them. And your further theory seems to
> > > be that a TMer *has* to believe all the dogma
> > > and theory that was taught to them about TM
> > > to be "really" practicing TM. They don't.
> > 
> > They don't have to accept ANY dogma about TM, but if they start 
> > assigning greater significance to one set of experiences over 
> > another, then by definition, they are no longer practicing TM.
> 
> ONLY if they act on it.

How can one fail to act on thoughts when thoughts are the actions we 
are talking about?

> 
> > > > That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the 
> > > > technique, though of course *I* believe that the innocent 
> > > > technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
> > > 
> > > I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.
> > 
> > Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.
> 
> That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)
>

Or yours.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > Which goes back to MY point that any "theory" that 
> > > > attempts to explain TM must preserve the anything 
> > > > goes/effortlessness nature of the technique, or 
> > > > it morphs into something else.
> > > 
> > > No, it doesn't. One could still be practicing TM 
> > > *exactly* as taught and believe what Vaj and I 
> > > believe. You are confusing theory with practice,
> > > and the dogma one believes in with the actuality
> > > of the practice one believes it *about*. I could
> > > believe what I believe and still practice TM 
> > > exactly as it was taught to me; if you can't,
> > > that's your problem, not mine.
> > 
> > So you believe that you can separate yourself into an 
> > innocent practioner who disagrees with the explanation 
> > that any experience is valid during TM practice and a 
> > theoretician who does NOT believe this?
> 
> Absolutely. You can't?
> 
> > So for you, theory, in this context, wouldn't interfere 
> > with practice, even though your theory directly contradicts 
> > the instructions?
> 
> If I felt that the practice as taught was valuable and
> I wanted the benefits of it as taught, I would be able
> to practice it as taught even though I didn't believe
> ONE WORD of the theory behind it.
> 
> I have done exactly this MANY TIMES when attending
> teachings given by different spiritual traditions.
> I may believe NONE of the theory behind the tech-
> niques they teach, but when it comes to practicing
> them in the group as they are taught, I practice
> them *exactly* as taught. Otherwise I am not giving
> them a fair trial.
> 
> This is the process of following the instructions,
> evaluating the results, and THEN deciding whether
> the theory makes sense. You seem to be saying that
> one has to buy the theory FIRST in order to be
> able to follow the instructions.

Nope, but rejecting a practice that requires innocence by claiming 
that innocence isn't necessary is rather odd, IMHO.

> 
> 
> > > And that's just FINE, dude. I have never said any
> > > differently. I'm not trying to SELL you my theory.
> > > It's MINE. It doesn't affect you in any way, unless
> > > you allow it to. 
> > 
> > I don't accept the theory. You DO accept the theory. I 
> > claim that your insistence that one experience during 
> > TM is automatically better than another taints the practice.
> 
> Exactly HOW? Read my lips again: I DON'T PRACTICE TM.
> What's it gonna "taint?" 

The hypotehtical practice thatyou say you can indulge in at any time 
even though you reject the coreof the practice.

> 
> YOU don't agree with my theory. Is it going to "taint*
> your meditation?
> 
> Think this shit through, dude. What you're arguing is
> that belief drives experience.

To a certain extent, that's always the case. Certainly, in the case 
of a practice where one is *instructed* that no set of experiences is 
more important than any other, to insist that one set IS more 
important is counter to the technique itself.

> 
> > > > > There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
> > > > > doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
> > > > > they didn't hear and understand the same things you
> > > > > did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
> > > > > were parroting what they were told to say. It just
> > > > > means that the other person has chosen not to take
> > > > > what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
> > > > > *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
> > > > > expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
> > > > > And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
> > > > > or your own opinions unless you allow it to.
> > > > 
> > > > Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value 
> > > > judgements to one particular experience over another, 
> > > > you're no longer practicing TM.
> > > 
> > > NOT NECESSARILY. Vaj, as far as I know, DOES NOT 
> > > PRACTICE TM. Neither do I. What we believe about
> > > meditation and what makes a meditation session
> > > effective doesn't affect TM in the slightest.
> > 
> > How would you know, not being a TMer any more, by 
> > your own admission?
> 
> Admission?  Are you suggesting I just "confessed"
> to something?  :-)

Er, no.

> 
> I *don't* "know." I have beliefs, based on the full
> range of meditation techniques I have studied. 
> 
> You are still reacting as if I'm trying to SELL you
> something because I believe differently than you do.
> 

Nope, I'm pointing outthe contradictions inyour own stance.

> > > Are you trying to say that your mind is so weak
> > > that if someone *else* suggests a different way
> > > of looking at meditation and how it works, that
> > > is going to affect how *you* meditate?  :-)
> > 
> > If I accept it, sure. Innocence is lost when you 
> > start assigning value judgements. That you don't 
> > see this is quite telling.
> 
> That you do is even more telling, IMO.

So you thin

[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread Robert Gimbel

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
> wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid 
> > > > > > meditation
> > > > > > session, or so your "good luck with that" response 
suggests.
> > > > > 
> > > > > This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a 
> > > > > valid  
> > > > > meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What 
that 
> > > > > will  
> > > > > actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long 
enough--
> > > > > which  
> > > > > actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this 
> > > > > technique.
> > > > 
> > > > For what it's worth, I actually agree with Vaj here.
> > > > That does *not* mean that I didn't "learn TM properly,"
> > > > merely that nearly 40 years of meditation practice
> > > > have suggested other ways of seeing the situation to
> > > > me that I tend to believe more than the dogma that is
> > > > taught in the TM organization.
> > > 
> > > sure, whatever. But once you start assigning value 
> > > judgements to one set of experiences over another, 
> > > you're no longer practicing TM.
> > 
> > Read my lips: I NO LONGER PRACTICE TM.  :-)
> > 
> > But what you're saying isn't true. When it comes to
> > driving an automobile, I happen to believe that the
> > speed limits imposed by the French govenment are
> > about ten kilometers per hour too slow. I definitely
> > assign a value judgement to that belief. I value 
> > driving faster more than I value driving at a rate
> > I consider too slow for traffic conditions. But that
> > doesn't prevent me from driving below the posted
> > speed limit *most of the time* because that behavior
> > saves me a great deal of money that I would otherwise 
> > spend on speeding fines.
> > 
> > You seem to be saying that the fact that I assign
> > a value judgement to my belief about what the 
> > proper speed limit should be and prefer one way
> > of driving over another, that I have NO CHOICE 
> > other than to drive faster than that.
> > 
> > Your mind may work that way, but mine doesn't...
> >
> 
> But TM helps the mind to stop working so hard. You're addicted to 
> having the mind work all the time, obviously...

TM is to transcend thought; Mindfullness occurs in TM when one 
transcends, and becomes mindful of the self.
 Mindfulness is there the whole time with continued practice: it's 
there during both the inward and ourward stroke of meditation; when 
thinking the mantra, or when noticing you're off on a thought and 
coming back to the mantra; or noticing that your just quietly settled 
in the mindfull state of transcendental consciousness, of no-
mantra/no thought.
The whole point of meditation is to get beyond thought.   
  
If one is to become familiar with the infinite, then what does one 
focus on? 
What object can the mind focus on to become infinite? 
The mind focuses on the mantra, and then let's go.
When one let's go completely then awareness arives at the infinite.

 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
> wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
> wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > > > Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.
> > > > 
> > > > So? You have a *theory* as to what constitutes an 
> > > > effective meditation session. that *theory* just 
> > > > "happens" to be the same one that was TOLD to you 
> > > > by your TM teachers. Vaj has a different theory. 
> > > > You tried to imply that this means he "never really 
> > > > learned TM."
> > > > 
> > > > You really *don't* GET this, do you?
> > > 
> > > I don't think YOU "get" it: when a technique is meant 
> > > to be easy, innocent, etc., theories that portray one 
> > > set of experiences as being better than another set, 
> > > detract from the *innocence* of the technique. 
> > 
> > ONLY if one ACTS on those theories. Otherwise,
> > they're just theories.
> > 
> > Your position seems to be that a person who
> > believes as we do has NO CHOICE but to act
> > on them. And your further theory seems to
> > be that a TMer *has* to believe all the dogma
> > and theory that was taught to them about TM
> > to be "really" practicing TM. They don't.
> 
> They don't have to accept ANY dogma about TM, but if they start 
> assigning greater significance to one set of experiences over 
> another, then by definition, they are no longer practicing TM.

ONLY if they act on it.

> > > That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the 
> > > technique, though of course *I* believe that the innocent 
> > > technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
> > 
> > I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.
> 
> Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.

That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

> > > Which goes back to MY point that any "theory" that 
> > > attempts to explain TM must preserve the anything 
> > > goes/effortlessness nature of the technique, or 
> > > it morphs into something else.
> > 
> > No, it doesn't. One could still be practicing TM 
> > *exactly* as taught and believe what Vaj and I 
> > believe. You are confusing theory with practice,
> > and the dogma one believes in with the actuality
> > of the practice one believes it *about*. I could
> > believe what I believe and still practice TM 
> > exactly as it was taught to me; if you can't,
> > that's your problem, not mine.
> 
> So you believe that you can separate yourself into an 
> innocent practioner who disagrees with the explanation 
> that any experience is valid during TM practice and a 
> theoretician who does NOT believe this?

Absolutely. You can't?

> So for you, theory, in this context, wouldn't interfere 
> with practice, even though your theory directly contradicts 
> the instructions?

If I felt that the practice as taught was valuable and
I wanted the benefits of it as taught, I would be able
to practice it as taught even though I didn't believe
ONE WORD of the theory behind it.

I have done exactly this MANY TIMES when attending
teachings given by different spiritual traditions.
I may believe NONE of the theory behind the tech-
niques they teach, but when it comes to practicing
them in the group as they are taught, I practice
them *exactly* as taught. Otherwise I am not giving
them a fair trial.

This is the process of following the instructions,
evaluating the results, and THEN deciding whether
the theory makes sense. You seem to be saying that
one has to buy the theory FIRST in order to be
able to follow the instructions.


> > And that's just FINE, dude. I have never said any
> > differently. I'm not trying to SELL you my theory.
> > It's MINE. It doesn't affect you in any way, unless
> > you allow it to. 
> 
> I don't accept the theory. You DO accept the theory. I 
> claim that your insistence that one experience during 
> TM is automatically better than another taints the practice.

Exactly HOW? Read my lips again: I DON'T PRACTICE TM.
What's it gonna "taint?" 

YOU don't agree with my theory. Is it going to "taint*
your meditation?

Think this shit through, dude. What you're arguing is
that belief drives experience.

> > > > There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
> > > > doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
> > > > they didn't hear and understand the same things you
> > > > did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
> > > > were parroting what they were told to say. It just
> > > > means that the other person has chosen not to take
> > > > what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
> > > > *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
> > > > expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
> > > > And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
> > > > or your own opinions unless you allow it to.
> > > 
> > > Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value 
> > > judgements to one particular experience over another, 
> > > you're no longer practicing TM.
> > 
> > NOT NECESSARILY. Vaj, as far as I know, DOES NOT 
> > PRACTICE TM. Neither do I. What we believe about
> > meditation and what makes a meditation session
> > effective doesn't affect TM in the slightest.
> 
> How would you know, not being a TMer any more, by 
> your own admission?

Admission?  Are you suggesting I just "confessed"
to something?  :-)

I *don't* "know." I have beliefs, based on the full
range of meditation techniques I have studied. 

You are still reacting as if I'm trying to SELL you
something because I believe differently than you do.

> > Are you trying to say that your mind is so weak
> > that if someone *else* suggests a different way
> > of looking at meditation and how it works, that
> > is going to affect how *you* meditate?  :-)
> 
> If I accept it, sure. Innocence is lost when you 
> start assigning value judgements. That you don't 
> see this is quite telling.

That you do is even more telling, IMO.

You are asserting that belief in how TM works
is *essential* to it working properly. Has it
occurred to you that this is directly contrary
to everything you were ever told about TM?

> > It's THEORY, dude, and furthermore a theory pro-
> > posed by two people who do *not* practice TM and
> > probably never will again. We are not trying to
> > SELL you our theory or "convert" you to believing
> > in it. It's just FINE for you to believe what you
> > believe today. You are reacting as if by even
> > mentioning our theories we are putting the 
> > sanctity and purity of *your* meditation in
> > some kind of jeapardy.
> 
> Nope, but I argue that theory and practice during TM 
> are inseparable. 

In other words, in your opinion, belief in the
theory of how TM works is *essential* for it to
be practiced properly. Did I get this right?

> You can practice TM w

[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > [...]
> > > > Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.
> > > 
> > > So? You have a *theory* as to what constitutes an 
> > > effective meditation session. that *theory* just 
> > > "happens" to be the same one that was TOLD to you 
> > > by your TM teachers. Vaj has a different theory. 
> > > You tried to imply that this means he "never really 
> > > learned TM."
> > > 
> > > You really *don't* GET this, do you?
> > 
> > I don't think YOU "get" it: when a technique is meant 
> > to be easy, innocent, etc., theories that portray one 
> > set of experiences as being better than another set, 
> > detract from the *innocence* of the technique. 
> 
> ONLY if one ACTS on those theories. Otherwise,
> they're just theories.
> 
> Your position seems to be that a person who
> believes as we do has NO CHOICE but to act
> on them. And your further theory seems to
> be that a TMer *has* to believe all the dogma
> and theory that was taught to them about TM
> to be "really" practicing TM. They don't.

They don't have to accept ANY dogma about TM, but if they start 
assigning greater significance to one set of experiences over 
another, then by definition, they are no longer practicing TM.

> 
> > That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the 
> > technique, though of course *I* believe that the innocent 
> > technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
> 
> I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.

Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.

> 
> > However, its hard to argue (though you and Vaj seem to) 
> > that one can have a theory of TM divorced from the 
> > innocence of TM.
> 
> We seem to have the ability to believe something 
> is true and not necessarily act upon it. T'would
> seem that you don't believe that this is possible.
>

In the context of TM? If you assign a significance to one experience 
over another, than the theory IS the practice, at least in the TM 
context, since the practice of TM involves innocent acceptance of all 
sets of experiences during meditation practice as equally valid.

If you assign greater validity to one set of experiences over another 
during TM practice, that is no longer innocent in the practice.

In fact, you and Vaj CANNOT practice TM any more, IMHO because you 
quite literally and consciously reject the technique  by insisting 
that you "know better" than what happens naturally when you let it 
happen. You've lost your innocence.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So you believe that you can separate yourself into an innocent 
> practioner who disagrees with the explanation that any experience is 
> valid during TM practice and a theoretician who does NOT believe this?
> 

SHould read:

So you believe that you can separate yourself into an innocent 
practioner who agrees with the explanation that any experience is 
valid during TM practice and a theoretician who does NOT believe this?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid 
> > > > > meditation
> > > > > session, or so your "good luck with that" response suggests.
> > > > 
> > > > This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a 
> > > > valid  
> > > > meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What that 
> > > > will  
> > > > actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long enough--
> > > > which  
> > > > actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this 
> > > > technique.
> > > 
> > > For what it's worth, I actually agree with Vaj here.
> > > That does *not* mean that I didn't "learn TM properly,"
> > > merely that nearly 40 years of meditation practice
> > > have suggested other ways of seeing the situation to
> > > me that I tend to believe more than the dogma that is
> > > taught in the TM organization.
> > 
> > sure, whatever. But once you start assigning value 
> > judgements to one set of experiences over another, 
> > you're no longer practicing TM.
> 
> Read my lips: I NO LONGER PRACTICE TM.  :-)
> 
> But what you're saying isn't true. When it comes to
> driving an automobile, I happen to believe that the
> speed limits imposed by the French govenment are
> about ten kilometers per hour too slow. I definitely
> assign a value judgement to that belief. I value 
> driving faster more than I value driving at a rate
> I consider too slow for traffic conditions. But that
> doesn't prevent me from driving below the posted
> speed limit *most of the time* because that behavior
> saves me a great deal of money that I would otherwise 
> spend on speeding fines.
> 
> You seem to be saying that the fact that I assign
> a value judgement to my belief about what the 
> proper speed limit should be and prefer one way
> of driving over another, that I have NO CHOICE 
> other than to drive faster than that.
> 
> Your mind may work that way, but mine doesn't...
>

But TM helps the mind to stop working so hard. You're addicted to 
having the mind work all the time, obviously...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> [...]
> > > Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.
> > 
> > So? You have a *theory* as to what constitutes an 
> > effective meditation session. that *theory* just 
> > "happens" to be the same one that was TOLD to you 
> > by your TM teachers. Vaj has a different theory. 
> > You tried to imply that this means he "never really 
> > learned TM."
> > 
> > You really *don't* GET this, do you?
> 
> I don't think YOU "get" it: when a technique is meant 
> to be easy, innocent, etc., theories that portray one 
> set of experiences as being better than another set, 
> detract from the *innocence* of the technique. 

ONLY if one ACTS on those theories. Otherwise,
they're just theories.

Your position seems to be that a person who
believes as we do has NO CHOICE but to act
on them. And your further theory seems to
be that a TMer *has* to believe all the dogma
and theory that was taught to them about TM
to be "really" practicing TM. They don't.

> That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the 
> technique, though of course *I* believe that the innocent 
> technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.

I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.

> However, its hard to argue (though you and Vaj seem to) 
> that one can have a theory of TM divorced from the 
> innocence of TM.

We seem to have the ability to believe something 
is true and not necessarily act upon it. T'would
seem that you don't believe that this is possible.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
> > >
> < snip >
> > > Just my two centimes...I'm just trying to suggest
> > > that there is room for people to believe different
> > > things about meditation and how it works. Chances
> > > are that *none* of them are correct. Acting as if
> > > one is correct and all others are incorrect seems
> > > to me a great way to develop a lot of negative
> > > karma, not to evolve.
> > 
> > Whatever. We were talking about the ole "Transcendental 
> > Meditation as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi." Vaj and 
> > you both indicate that you have not only different beliefs 
> > about what makes TM work, but different beliefs about 
> > what TM *IS* in the first place. 
> 
> And? 
> 
> > Which goes back to MY point that any "theory" that 
> > attempts to explain TM must preserve the anything 
> > goes/effortlessness nature of the technique, or 
> > it morphs into something else.
> 
> No, it doesn't. One could still be practicing TM 
> *exactly* as taught and believe what Vaj and I 
> believe. You are confusing theory with practice,
> and the dogma one believes in with the actuality
> of the practice one believes it *about*. I could
> believe what I believe and still practice TM 
> exactly as it was taught to me; if you can't,
> that's your problem, not mine.
> 

So you believe that you can separate yourself into an innocent 
practioner who disagrees with the explanation that any experience is 
valid during TM practice and a theoretician who does NOT believe this?

So for you, theory, in this context, wouldn't interfere with 
practice, even though your theory directly contradicts the 
instructions?



> > > > As I pointed 
> > > > out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking 
> > > > the mantra once and being distracted by internal/external 
> > > > phenomena for the next 20 minutes.
> > > > 
> > > > You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid 
meditation 
> > > > session, or so your "good luck with that" response suggests.
> > > 
> > > I don't think Vaj ever suggested that sitting lost in 
> > > thought wasn't "valid." As I read what he said, he's
> > > suggesting that IN HIS OPINION it isn't particularly
> > > *effective*. I would agree. That doesn't mean that we
> > > didn't understand or "get" the TM dogma that surrounds
> > > this issue, merely that we don't buy it.
> > 
> > Fair enough, but *I* buyit becuase it DOES seem to work quite 
> > effectively for little ole ADHD me.
> 
> And that's just FINE, dude. I have never said any
> differently. I'm not trying to SELL you my theory.
> It's MINE. It doesn't affect you in any way, unless
> you allow it to. 

I don't accept the theory. You DO accept the theory. I claim that 
your insistence that one experience during TM is automatically better 
than another taints the practice.

>  
> > > There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
> > > doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
> > > they didn't hear and understand the same things you
> > > did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
> > > were parroting what they were told to say. It just
> > > means that the other person has chosen not to take
> > > what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
> > > *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
> > > expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
> > > And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
> > > or your own opinions unless you allow it to.
> > 
> > Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value 
> > judgements to one particular experience over another, 
> > you're no longer practicing TM.
> 
> NOT NECESSARILY. Vaj, as far as I know, DOES NOT 
> PRACTICE TM. Neither do I. What we believe about
> meditation and what makes a meditation session
> effective doesn't affect TM in the slightest.
> 

How would you know, not being a TMer any more, by your own admission?

> Are you trying to say that your mind is so weak
> that if someone *else* suggests a different way
> of looking at meditation and how it works, that
> is going to affect how *you* meditate?  :-)
> 

If I accept it, sure. Innocence is lost when you start assigning 
value judgements. That you don't see this is quite telling.

> It's THEORY, dude, and furthermore a theory pro-
> posed by two people who do *not* practice TM and
> probably never will again. We are not trying to
> SELL you our theory or "convert" you to believing
> in it. It's just FINE for you to believe what you
> believe today. You are reacting as if by even
> mentioning our theories we are putting the 
> sanctity and purity of *your* meditation in
> some kind of jeapardy.
> 

Nope, but I argue that theory and practice during TM are inseparable. 
You can practice TM without ANY kindof theory, but any acceptable 
theory from a TM technique perspective needs to expl

[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
> > > 
> > > > You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid 
> > > > meditation
> > > > session, or so your "good luck with that" response suggests.
> > > 
> > > This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a 
> > > valid  
> > > meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What that 
> > > will  
> > > actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long enough--
> > > which  
> > > actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this 
> > > technique.
> > 
> > For what it's worth, I actually agree with Vaj here.
> > That does *not* mean that I didn't "learn TM properly,"
> > merely that nearly 40 years of meditation practice
> > have suggested other ways of seeing the situation to
> > me that I tend to believe more than the dogma that is
> > taught in the TM organization.
> 
> sure, whatever. But once you start assigning value 
> judgements to one set of experiences over another, 
> you're no longer practicing TM.

Read my lips: I NO LONGER PRACTICE TM.  :-)

But what you're saying isn't true. When it comes to
driving an automobile, I happen to believe that the
speed limits imposed by the French govenment are
about ten kilometers per hour too slow. I definitely
assign a value judgement to that belief. I value 
driving faster more than I value driving at a rate
I consider too slow for traffic conditions. But that
doesn't prevent me from driving below the posted
speed limit *most of the time* because that behavior
saves me a great deal of money that I would otherwise 
spend on speeding fines.

You seem to be saying that the fact that I assign
a value judgement to my belief about what the 
proper speed limit should be and prefer one way
of driving over another, that I have NO CHOICE 
other than to drive faster than that.

Your mind may work that way, but mine doesn't...

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> >
< snip >
> > Just my two centimes...I'm just trying to suggest
> > that there is room for people to believe different
> > things about meditation and how it works. Chances
> > are that *none* of them are correct. Acting as if
> > one is correct and all others are incorrect seems
> > to me a great way to develop a lot of negative
> > karma, not to evolve.
> 
> Whatever. We were talking about the ole "Transcendental 
> Meditation as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi." Vaj and 
> you both indicate that you have not only different beliefs 
> about what makes TM work, but different beliefs about 
> what TM *IS* in the first place. 

And? 

> Which goes back to MY point that any "theory" that 
> attempts to explain TM must preserve the anything 
> goes/effortlessness nature of the technique, or 
> it morphs into something else.

No, it doesn't. One could still be practicing TM 
*exactly* as taught and believe what Vaj and I 
believe. You are confusing theory with practice,
and the dogma one believes in with the actuality
of the practice one believes it *about*. I could
believe what I believe and still practice TM 
exactly as it was taught to me; if you can't,
that's your problem, not mine.

> > > As I pointed 
> > > out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking 
> > > the mantra once and being distracted by internal/external 
> > > phenomena for the next 20 minutes.
> > > 
> > > You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation 
> > > session, or so your "good luck with that" response suggests.
> > 
> > I don't think Vaj ever suggested that sitting lost in 
> > thought wasn't "valid." As I read what he said, he's
> > suggesting that IN HIS OPINION it isn't particularly
> > *effective*. I would agree. That doesn't mean that we
> > didn't understand or "get" the TM dogma that surrounds
> > this issue, merely that we don't buy it.
> 
> Fair enough, but *I* buyit becuase it DOES seem to work quite 
> effectively for little ole ADHD me.

And that's just FINE, dude. I have never said any
differently. I'm not trying to SELL you my theory.
It's MINE. It doesn't affect you in any way, unless
you allow it to. 

> > There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
> > doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
> > they didn't hear and understand the same things you
> > did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
> > were parroting what they were told to say. It just
> > means that the other person has chosen not to take
> > what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
> > *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
> > expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
> > And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
> > or your own opinions unless you allow it to.
> 
> Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value 
> judgements to one particular experience over another, 
> you're no longer practicing TM.

NOT NECESSARILY. Vaj, as far as I know, DOES NOT 
PRACTICE TM. Neither do I. What we believe about
meditation and what makes a meditation session
effective doesn't affect TM in the slightest.

Are you trying to say that your mind is so weak
that if someone *else* suggests a different way
of looking at meditation and how it works, that
is going to affect how *you* meditate?  :-)

It's THEORY, dude, and furthermore a theory pro-
posed by two people who do *not* practice TM and
probably never will again. We are not trying to
SELL you our theory or "convert" you to believing
in it. It's just FINE for you to believe what you
believe today. You are reacting as if by even
mentioning our theories we are putting the 
sanctity and purity of *your* meditation in
some kind of jeapardy.

Your position seems to be based on the idea that
different theories of how meditation works might
have "cooties" and somehow "infect" those who
hear them and render them incapable of practicing
their meditation the way they were originally 
taught to. Has anything you've ever heard here
or on a.m.t. ever affected how you choose to 
practice TM? If not, then I rest my case. 
Lighten up.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
[...]
> > Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.
> 
> So? You have a *theory* as to what constitutes an 
> effective meditation session. that *theory* just 
> "happens" to be the same one that was TOLD to you 
> by your TM teachers. Vaj has a different theory. 
> You tried to imply that this means he "never really 
> learned TM."
> 
> You really *don't* GET this, do you?
>

I don't think YOU "get" it: when a technique is meant to be easy, 
innocent, etc., theories that portray one set of experiences as being 
better than another set, detract from the *innocence* of the technique. 
That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the technique, 
though of course *I* believe that the innocent technique IS more 
effective than the non-innocent one.

However, its hard to argue (though you and Vaj seem to) that one can 
have a theory of TM divorced from the innocence of TM.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:36 AM, sparaig wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Huh, but one can have the "outward stroke" for the full 
> > > > > 20 minutes of TM practice and still be practicing TM 
> > > > > absolutely correctly.
> > > > 
> > > > Good luck with that!
> > > 
> > > So Judy and I have been correct: you really never learned TM, 
> > > regardless of what classes/courses you took on the subject.
> > 
> > So you believe that to have "learned TM" properly,
> > you have to believe all the *dogma* about TM that
> > was taught to you?
> > 
> > That's what you're saying, in effect. What you've
> > just said isn't about the mechanics of TM, but
> > about what you were told in the lectures *about*
> > TM. It's THEORY. Vaj has a *different* theory,
> > based on his subsequent experience. I think that
> > in the biz, that's known as an OPINION.  :-)
> 
> Theoretical or not, I was taught that that particular experience 
> during TM practice was just as valid as any other. Vaj was 
> implying (and later clarified) that its not a good experience.

Or possibly not the most effective experience. Yes,
he did. And that is his OPINION, based on experience
with TM and with other techniques, and with a wide
range of teachings. Him believing that does NOT
imply that he "really never learned TM."

Do you GET this, man? He could have learned exactly
as you did, believed it for years, and then *changed
his mind*, coming to a different conclusion, right?

> > Are you so weak in your *own* practice that you
> > have to suggest that anyone who doesn't believe
> > the same dogma you believe is "doing TM wrong?"
> 
> What dogma? The dogma that says that any ole experience 
> during TM practice is as good as any other?

YES!!!  That is dogma. You were TAUGHT this. WE, as
TM teachers, taught it to you. It isn't necessarily
Truth, with a capital 'T.' It's just what we were
taught to say. I believed it at the time, when I said
it. I no longer do. That doesn't mean that I "really
never learned TM." Do you GET this distinction?

> > That IS what you are suggesting. I mean, think
> > this through, dude...if TM is as automatic as
> > you have maintained in the past, and as free from
> > the need to "believe in it," then a person could
> > be practicing it as taught and believe that any 
> > benefits come from tiny green gophers who, as one 
> > thinks the mantra, scurry around the brain eating 
> > up any unruly neurons in the brain. 
> 
> Of course. However, any theory that "explains" TM needs 
> to preserve the essence of TM. 

Why? Vaj isn't a TMer. He can have any theory about 
meditation and how meditation works that he wants. 
You are free to have your own belief in what you 
were TOLD about how TM works; he is free to have
his own belief about how TM works, based on his own
experience and what he may have learned in different
traditions. He is NOT trying to convince you to 
meditate differently. He is merely presenting a 
different way of looking at the mechanics of 
meditation and what, in his opinion, the most
important transformative element of meditation is.

> I don't think yours does, unless you can 
> link it to the anything goes aspect of TM practice.

It's just a THEORY, dude. It doesn't affect TM or
your practice of it in any WAY. And, contrary to
what you tried to imply, it doesn't imply that my
understanding of what TM presents in its dogma, or
Vaj's, is flawed and indicates that we "really never
learned TM."  We *did* learn TM. We believed as you
do for many years. We changed our minds, that's all.

> > Your position is based on an assumption, also
> > one that you were TOLD, that TM "works" by dis-
> > solving stress. Some of us, based on our exper-
> > ience with other techniques and with higher
> > states of consciousness, don't believe that this
> > is true. Therefore, to us, the benefit of any
> > form of meditation, *including* TM, is a direct
> > result of how effectively the practice leads to
> > transcendence. We believe *that* (the amount of
> > time spent in transcendence) is the mechanism
> > that affects change, *not* sitting there lost in
> > thought. This conflicts with the TM dogma, but it
> > may be correct. It's a matter of belief, not fact.
> 
> Sure, but within the TM explanation, its a perfectly 
> valid meditation episode. You're merely objecting to 
> it being valid becuase YOUR theories don't jive with it.

If *you* believe it's valid, FINE!!! I have never 
said that I *don't* think it's valid. I personally
don't think that sitting for 20 minutes lost in
thought is as *effective* a style of meditation as
possible, but that's just what I believe. You are
free to practice TM exactly as it was taught to
you, and believe the dogma that was taught to yo

[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
> > 
> > > You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation
> > > session, or so your "good luck with that" response suggests.
> > 
> > This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a valid  
> > meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What that 
will  
> > actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long enough--
which  
> > actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this technique.
> 
> For what it's worth, I actually agree with Vaj here.
> That does *not* mean that I didn't "learn TM properly,"
> merely that nearly 40 years of meditation practice
> have suggested other ways of seeing the situation to
> me that I tend to believe more than the dogma that is
> taught in the TM organization.
>

sure, whatever. But once you start assigning value judgements to one 
set of experiences over another, you're no longer practicing TM.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > > In any
> > > > > style of meditation where you have an object of focus
> > > >
> > > > Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.
> > > 
> > > In terms of process, it is the point you return to 
> > > irregardless.  
> > > Focus here being an english trans. of the Sanskrit "dharana" 
or  
> > > "focus of attention" in the "official" movement translation of 
> > > the word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed 
> > > you would be conversant in their language. Apparently that is 
> > > not the case.
> > 
> > But, what mantra do you return to?
> 
> You don't have to be so TM-centric and bigoted, man.
> Many techniques of meditation don't even *use* a
> mantra. But you still "come back to" something.

I'm aware that many techniques don't use a mantra. I was referring to 
the assumption that one knows what one's mantra is in the first 
placein the sense that most people would think of "knowing." As like 
as not, my "mantra" is often a vague hum that is only identifiable 
as "my mantra" because its the most convenient label handy for 
whatever it is.

> 
> IMO it isn't the mantra per se that enables
> TM to work; it's the "coming back to, " the element
> of focus (even if it's "soft focus," as in TM). The 
> choice of TM mantras was come to by trial and error, 
> and changed radically during MMY's early years. You
> can find them in many books, and chances are that's
> where Maharishi found them. There is nothing partic-
> ularly magical about them.

IMO, its the *process* that enables TM to "work." 

> 
> In other words, you responded to Vaj's point with
> a non-sequitur intended to dismiss it and suggest 
> that TM is "best." Again. And again, you're better 
> than that.
> 

In other words, you responded to MYpoint with a non-sequitur designed 
to prove that you and Vaj are correct and I am wrong.

> Just my two centimes...I'm just trying to suggest
> that there is room for people to believe different
> things about meditation and how it works. Chances
> are that *none* of them are correct. Acting as if
> one is correct and all others are incorrect seems
> to me a great way to develop a lot of negative
> karma, not to evolve.
> 

Whatever. We were talking about the ole "Transcendental Meditation as 
taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi." Vaj and you both indicate that you 
have not only different beliefs about what makes TM work, but 
different beliefs about what TM *IS* in the first place. Which goes 
back to MY point that any "theory" that attempts to explain TM must 
preserve the anything goes/effortlessness nature of the technique, or 
it morphs into something else.

> 
> > Insomuch as TM involves awareness, then you can say its 
> > mindfulness. Beyond that, depends on the definition of 
> > mindfulness. 
> 
> Correct. Earlier, I used a more limited definition of 
> mindfulness; but as Vaj and others here seem to be using
> it, it's a term that applies to the application of
> selective attention, period. As such, I would have to
> agree that most forms of meditation, including TM, fall
> into that category.
> 

ONly within the most vague and open-ended definition of "selective 
attention."

> > As I pointed 
> > out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking 
> > the mantra once and being distracted by internal/external 
> > phenomena for the next 20 minutes.
> > 
> > You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation 
> > session, or so your "good luck with that" response suggests.
> 
> I don't think Vaj ever suggested that sitting lost in 
> thought wasn't "valid." As I read what he said, he's
> suggesting that IN HIS OPINION it isn't particularly
> *effective*. I would agree. That doesn't mean that we
> didn't understand or "get" the TM dogma that surrounds
> this issue, merely that we don't buy it.

Fair enough, but *I* buyit becuase it DOES seem to work quite 
effectively for little ole ADHD me.

> 
> There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
> doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
> they didn't hear and understand the same things you
> did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
> were parroting what they were told to say. It just
> means that the other person has chosen not to take
> what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
> *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
> expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
> And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
> or your own opinions unless you allow it to.
>

Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value judgements to one 
particular experience over another, you're no longer practicing TM.

My point with Judy as well...







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--

[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:36 AM, sparaig wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Huh, but one can have the "outward stroke" for the full 
> > > > 20 minutes of TM practice and still be practicing TM 
> > > > absolutely correctly.
> > > 
> > > Good luck with that!
> > 
> > So Judy and I have been correct: you really never learned TM, 
> > regardless of what classes/courses you took on the subject.
> 
> So you believe that to have "learned TM" properly,
> you have to believe all the *dogma* about TM that
> was taught to you?
> 
> That's what you're saying, in effect. What you've
> just said isn't about the mechanics of TM, but
> about what you were told in the lectures *about*
> TM. It's THEORY. Vaj has a *different* theory,
> based on his subsequent experience. I think that
> in the biz, that's known as an OPINION.  :-)

Theoretical or not, I was taught that that particular experience 
during TM practice was just as valid as any other. Vaj was implying 
(and later clarified) that its not a good experience.

> 
> Are you so weak in your *own* practice that you
> have to suggest that anyone who doesn't believe
> the same dogma you believe is "doing TM wrong?"

What dogma? The dogma that says that any ole experience during TM 
practice is as good as any other?

> That IS what you are suggesting. I mean, think
> this through, dude...if TM is as automatic as
> you have maintained in the past, and as free from
> the need to "believe in it," then a person could
> be practicing it as taught and believe that any 
> benefits come from tiny green gophers who, as one 
> thinks the mantra, scurry around the brain eating 
> up any unruly neurons in the brain. 

Of course. However, any theory that "explains" TM needs to 
preservethe essence of TM. I don't think yours does, unless you can 
link it to the anything goes aspect of TM practice.

> 
> Your position is based on an assumption, also
> one that you were TOLD, that TM "works" by dis-
> solving stress. Some of us, based on our exper-
> ience with other techniques and with higher
> states of consciousness, don't believe that this
> is true. Therefore, to us, the benefit of any
> form of meditation, *including* TM, is a direct
> result of how effectively the practice leads to
> transcendence. We believe *that* (the amount of
> time spent in transcendence) is the mechanism
> that affects change, *not* sitting there lost in
> thought. This conflicts with the TM dogma, but it
> may be correct. It's a matter of belief, not fact.
> 


Sure, but within the TM explanation, its a perfectly valid meditation 
episode. You're merely objecting to it being valid becuase YOUR 
theories don't jive with it.

> Stop this stuff. You're too intelligent to have
> to stoop to this sort of argument. It's *permis-
> sible* to have different opinions on the theory
> behind TM, *especially* if, as in Vaj's case,
> he has other experiences *besides* TM to base
> his theory on, and is not (as in your case)
> basing them completely on what he was TOLD.


Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.

> 
> As I suggested to t3rinity lately, and as he
> seems to have taken to heart, you'd make a much
> stronger case for your beliefs if you found a
> way to present them positively than if you just
> react in a knee-jerk fashion by trying to "defend"
> them by demonizing the person who believes 
> differently, or who is presenting a different 
> set of beliefs. But when you react by trying to 
> say that the other person's opinion is fatally 
> flawed, and that they "never learned properly," 
> all you reveal is your own dependence on dogma 
> and doing what you were told. You're better 
> than that.
>

Lol. The most blind is often the one who complains about everyone 
else being blind. Have you ever noticed that, I wonder?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
> > > > Where is this "official movement translation of the
> > > > term" to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
> > >
> > > "Steadiness" is a popular TMer word for dharana.
> >
> > Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.
> 
> Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether 
regions!
> 
> "Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness 
thus  
> depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind." -MMY
> 
> More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!
>

Is this a translation of a Sanskrit phrase where "steadiness of mind" 
means dharana?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
> > Where is this "official movement translation of the
> > term" to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
> 
> "Steadiness" is a popular TMer word for dharana.
>

Really? I heard that dharana, dyhana, samadhi was to be translated 
as "maintainance, motion, samadhi," not "steadiness."

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > > Correct it does not describe the technique of manasika-japa/TM 
but
> > > merely defines mindfulness in a broad context of practice.
> > >
> >
> > Insomuch as TM involves awareness, then you can say its 
mindfulness.
> 
> Precisely.
> 
> > Beyond that, depends on the definition of mindfulness.
> 
> I am using Asanga's definition as it is pertinent to the style of  
> meditation we are discussing.

Blink, blink. Which style is that?

> 
> > As I pointed
> > out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking the 
mantra
> > once and being distracted by internal/external phenomena for the 
next
> > 20 minutes.
> >
> > You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation
> > session, or so your "good luck with that" response suggests.
> 
> This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a valid  
> meditation in your version of TM style meditation. 

MY version of "TM-style" meditation? It is what has happened on 
occassion. How is this "MY version?" Perhaps it has never happened 
with anyone else, but I doubt it.

What that will  
> actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long enough--
which  
> actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this technique.
>

LEts see: anything can happen during TM practice, and its a fault of 
the technique...

Do all practitioners of your "style of meditation" indulge in such 
sloppy use of their native languages?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation
> > session, or so your "good luck with that" response suggests.
> 
> This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a valid  
> meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What that will  
> actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long enough--which  
> actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this technique.

For what it's worth, I actually agree with Vaj here.
That does *not* mean that I didn't "learn TM properly,"
merely that nearly 40 years of meditation practice
have suggested other ways of seeing the situation to
me that I tend to believe more than the dogma that is
taught in the TM organization.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread TurquoiseB

> > > > In any
> > > > style of meditation where you have an object of focus
> > >
> > > Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.
> > 
> > In terms of process, it is the point you return to 
> > irregardless.  
> > Focus here being an english trans. of the Sanskrit "dharana" or  
> > "focus of attention" in the "official" movement translation of 
> > the word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed 
> > you would be conversant in their language. Apparently that is 
> > not the case.
> 
> But, what mantra do you return to?

You don't have to be so TM-centric and bigoted, man.
Many techniques of meditation don't even *use* a
mantra. But you still "come back to" something.

IMO it isn't the mantra per se that enables
TM to work; it's the "coming back to, " the element
of focus (even if it's "soft focus," as in TM). The 
choice of TM mantras was come to by trial and error, 
and changed radically during MMY's early years. You
can find them in many books, and chances are that's
where Maharishi found them. There is nothing partic-
ularly magical about them.

In other words, you responded to Vaj's point with
a non-sequitur intended to dismiss it and suggest 
that TM is "best." Again. And again, you're better 
than that.

Just my two centimes...I'm just trying to suggest
that there is room for people to believe different
things about meditation and how it works. Chances
are that *none* of them are correct. Acting as if
one is correct and all others are incorrect seems
to me a great way to develop a lot of negative
karma, not to evolve.


> Insomuch as TM involves awareness, then you can say its 
> mindfulness. Beyond that, depends on the definition of 
> mindfulness. 

Correct. Earlier, I used a more limited definition of 
mindfulness; but as Vaj and others here seem to be using
it, it's a term that applies to the application of
selective attention, period. As such, I would have to
agree that most forms of meditation, including TM, fall
into that category.

> As I pointed 
> out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking 
> the mantra once and being distracted by internal/external 
> phenomena for the next 20 minutes.
> 
> You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation 
> session, or so your "good luck with that" response suggests.

I don't think Vaj ever suggested that sitting lost in 
thought wasn't "valid." As I read what he said, he's
suggesting that IN HIS OPINION it isn't particularly
*effective*. I would agree. That doesn't mean that we
didn't understand or "get" the TM dogma that surrounds
this issue, merely that we don't buy it.

There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
they didn't hear and understand the same things you
did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
were parroting what they were told to say. It just
means that the other person has chosen not to take
what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
*only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
or your own opinions unless you allow it to.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:36 AM, sparaig wrote:
> > 
> > > Huh, but one can have the "outward stroke" for the full 
> > > 20 minutes of TM practice and still be practicing TM 
> > > absolutely correctly.
> > 
> > Good luck with that!
> 
> So Judy and I have been correct: you really never learned TM, 
> regardless of what classes/courses you took on the subject.

So you believe that to have "learned TM" properly,
you have to believe all the *dogma* about TM that
was taught to you?

That's what you're saying, in effect. What you've
just said isn't about the mechanics of TM, but
about what you were told in the lectures *about*
TM. It's THEORY. Vaj has a *different* theory,
based on his subsequent experience. I think that
in the biz, that's known as an OPINION.  :-)

Are you so weak in your *own* practice that you
have to suggest that anyone who doesn't believe
the same dogma you believe is "doing TM wrong?"
That IS what you are suggesting. I mean, think
this through, dude...if TM is as automatic as
you have maintained in the past, and as free from
the need to "believe in it," then a person could
be practicing it as taught and believe that any 
benefits come from tiny green gophers who, as one 
thinks the mantra, scurry around the brain eating 
up any unruly neurons in the brain. 

Your position is based on an assumption, also
one that you were TOLD, that TM "works" by dis-
solving stress. Some of us, based on our exper-
ience with other techniques and with higher
states of consciousness, don't believe that this
is true. Therefore, to us, the benefit of any
form of meditation, *including* TM, is a direct
result of how effectively the practice leads to
transcendence. We believe *that* (the amount of
time spent in transcendence) is the mechanism
that affects change, *not* sitting there lost in
thought. This conflicts with the TM dogma, but it
may be correct. It's a matter of belief, not fact.

Stop this stuff. You're too intelligent to have
to stoop to this sort of argument. It's *permis-
sible* to have different opinions on the theory
behind TM, *especially* if, as in Vaj's case,
he has other experiences *besides* TM to base
his theory on, and is not (as in your case)
basing them completely on what he was TOLD.

As I suggested to t3rinity lately, and as he
seems to have taken to heart, you'd make a much
stronger case for your beliefs if you found a
way to present them positively than if you just
react in a knee-jerk fashion by trying to "defend"
them by demonizing the person who believes 
differently, or who is presenting a different 
set of beliefs. But when you react by trying to 
say that the other person's opinion is fatally 
flawed, and that they "never learned properly," 
all you reveal is your own dependence on dogma 
and doing what you were told. You're better 
than that.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bbrigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >
> > On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:
> > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
> > > > > Where is this "official movement translation of the
> > > > > term" to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
> > > >
> > > > "Steadiness" is a popular TMer word for dharana.
> > >
> > > Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.
> > 
> > Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether
> > regions!
> 
> > "Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness 
> > thus depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind." -MMY
> > 
> > More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!
> 
> ***
> 
> Naturally you have completely misunderstood what MMY said, which 
> has nothing to do with the effort of focusing the mind, but on 
> simply living with a peaceful mind:
> 
> MMY's Gita commentary, Ch II, v. 66
> "If the mind is more steady, it is in a better position to 
> experience greater happiness. As on a calmer surface of water the 
> sun reflects more clearly, so a calmer mind receives a clerer 
> reflection of the omnipresent bliss of the absolute Being. As the 
> mind fathoms finer fields of thinking during meditation, the 
> metabolism is simultaneously reduced. This establishes the nervous 
> system in degrees of ever-increasing peace. Eventually, when the 
> entire nervous system comes to a completely peaceful state, it 
> reflects Being, and this gives rise to bliss-
> consciousnessAbsolute bliss being always there, the experience 
> of happiness thus depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind. If 
> the mind is more collected, more peaceful, it experiences more 
> happiness."

That's what I figured; the quote had nothing to do
with the question at issue--and it wasn't even a
translation in the first place.  Thanks for locating
it.

I don't understand why this forum tolerates scam
artists like Vaj and Barry.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread bbrigante

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
> > > > Where is this "official movement translation of the
> > > > term" to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
> > >
> > > "Steadiness" is a popular TMer word for dharana.
> >
> > Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.
> 
> Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether 
regions!
> 

> "Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness 
thus  
> depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind." -MMY
> 
> More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!
>

***

Naturally you have completely misunderstood what MMY said, which has 
nothing to do with the effort of focusing the mind, but on simply 
living with a peaceful mind:

MMY's Gita commentary, Ch II, v. 66
"If the mind is more steady, it is in a better position to 
experience greater happiness. As on a calmer surface of water the 
sun reflects more clearly, so a calmer mind receives a clerer 
reflection of the omnipresent bliss of the absolute Being. As the 
mind fathoms finer fields of thinking during meditation, the 
metabolism is simultaneously reduced. This establishes the nervous 
system in degrees of ever-increasing peace. Eventually, when the 
entire nervous system comes to a completely peaceful state, it 
reflects Being, and this gives rise to bliss-
consciousnessAbsolute bliss being always there, the experience 
of happiness thus depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind. If 
the mind is more collected, more peaceful, it experiences more 
happiness." 

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > > > >  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > In any style of meditation where you have an object of 
> > > > > > > focus
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.
> > > > >
> > > > > In terms of process, it is the point you return to 
> > > > > irregardless. Focus here being an english trans. of the 
> > > > > Sanskrit "dharana" or "focus of attention" in 
> > > > > the "official" movement translation of the
> > > > > word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed 
> > > > > you would be conversant in their language. Apparently that 
> > > > > is not the case.
> > >
> > > On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
> > > > Where is this "official movement translation of the
> > > > term" to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
> > >
> > > "Steadiness" is a popular TMer word for dharana.
> >
> > Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.
> 
> Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether
> regions!
> 
> "Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness 
> thus depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind." -MMY

Mm-hm.  So now show, please, how this quotation
demonstrates that TM involves "focus" (as we can see
was the original issue now that I've restored the
context Vaj snipped).

> More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!

Ya know, Vaj, of all the folks on this forum, and those
on alt.m.t as well, you are the *least* focused.  It's
not clear whether you're *unable* to sustain a coherent
train of thought in a discussion, or whether your lack
of focus is a deliberate tactic to obscure the fact that
you don't know what you're talking about most of the time.

Your constant context-snipping, I suspect, is the giveaway
that it's deliberate.

And the fact that you won't be able to make a coherent
connection between the quote and your claim is the
giveaway that, as I said, you're blowing it out your
nether regions.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
> >
> > > I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
> > > Where is this "official movement translation of the
> > > term" to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
> >
> > "Steadiness" is a popular TMer word for dharana.
>
> Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.

Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether regions!

"Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness thus  
depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind." -MMY

More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
> > Where is this "official movement translation of the
> > term" to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
> 
> "Steadiness" is a popular TMer word for dharana.

Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:

> I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
> Where is this "official movement translation of the
> term" to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?

"Steadiness" is a popular TMer word for dharana.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:

> > Correct it does not describe the technique of manasika-japa/TM but
> > merely defines mindfulness in a broad context of practice.
> >
>
> Insomuch as TM involves awareness, then you can say its mindfulness.

Precisely.

> Beyond that, depends on the definition of mindfulness.

I am using Asanga's definition as it is pertinent to the style of  
meditation we are discussing.

> As I pointed
> out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking the mantra
> once and being distracted by internal/external phenomena for the next
> 20 minutes.
>
> You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation
> session, or so your "good luck with that" response suggests.

This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a valid  
meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What that will  
actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long enough--which  
actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this technique.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 3:23 PM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> >
> > In any
> > > style of meditation where you have an object of focus
> >
> > Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.
> 
>   In terms of process, it is the point you return to irregardless.  
> Focus here being an english trans. of the Sanskrit "dharana" or  
> "focus of attention" in the "official" movement translation of the  
> word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed you 
> would be conversant in their language. Apparently that is not the 
> case.

I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
Where is this "official movement translation of the
term" to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?

> > --WHATEVER that
> > > object may be, the subtle mechanics will require that you
z maintain
> > > some species of global mindfulness in order to be able to 
meditate.
> > > I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
> > > appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
> > >
> > > "What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
> > > respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
> > > distraction."
> >
> > As I understand this, it *would* apply to TM--except
> > that it's a DEscription of *what happens*, not a PRE-
> > scription for *what to do*.
> 
> Correct it does not describe the technique of manasika-japa/TM but  
> merely defines mindfulness in a broad context of practice.

Non sequitur, not only to my comment, but to your
own introduction to the quotation.

> > > In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global
> > > conditioned 'familiarity' is with the mantra and "non-
> > > distraction" would refer to the vyuttana or outward, distracted
> > > tendency of the "outward stroke". Since this so precisely and 
> > > accurately applies, what else need be said?
> > 
> > As long as you're talking about DEscription, nothing.
> > But it doesn't have anything to do with whether effort
> > is exerted during TM.
> > 
> > As long as the attention is on the mantra, "mindfulness"
> > and "nondistraction" are happening.  When another
> > thought intervenes, that's the outward stroke; the
> > "mindfulness" and "nondistraction" have ceased.
> >
> > That's the effortless cycle I described earlier.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 3:23 PM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> >
> > In any
> > > style of meditation where you have an object of focus
> >
> > Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.
> 
>   In terms of process, it is the point you return to irregardless.  
> Focus here being an english trans. of the Sanskrit "dharana" or  
> "focus of attention" in the "official" movement translation of the  
> word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed you 
would  
> be conversant in their language. Apparently that is not the case.
> 

But, what mantra do you return to?

> >
> > --WHATEVER that
> > > object may be, the subtle mechanics will require that you 
maintain
> > > some species of global mindfulness in order to be able to 
meditate.
> > > I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
> > > appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
> > >
> > > "What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
> > > respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
> > > distraction."
> >
> > As I understand this, it *would* apply to TM--except
> > that it's a DEscription of *what happens*, not a PRE-
> > scription for *what to do*.
> 
> Correct it does not describe the technique of manasika-japa/TM but  
> merely defines mindfulness in a broad context of practice.
>

Insomuch as TM involves awareness, then you can say its mindfulness. 
Beyond that, depends on the definition of mindfulness. As I pointed 
out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking the mantra 
once and being distracted by internal/external phenomena for the next 
20 minutes.

You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation 
session, or so your "good luck with that" response suggests.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

On Mar 15, 2006, at 3:23 PM, authfriend wrote:

>
> In any
> > style of meditation where you have an object of focus
>
> Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.

  In terms of process, it is the point you return to irregardless.  
Focus here being an english trans. of the Sanskrit "dharana" or  
"focus of attention" in the "official" movement translation of the  
word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed you would  
be conversant in their language. Apparently that is not the case.

>
> --WHATEVER that
> > object may be, the subtle mechanics will require that you maintain
> > some species of global mindfulness in order to be able to meditate.
> > I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
> > appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
> >
> > "What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
> > respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
> > distraction."
>
> As I understand this, it *would* apply to TM--except
> that it's a DEscription of *what happens*, not a PRE-
> scription for *what to do*.

Correct it does not describe the technique of manasika-japa/TM but  
merely defines mindfulness in a broad context of practice.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:36 AM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > Huh, but one can have the "outward stroke" for the full 20 minutes 
of
> > TM practice and still be practicing TM absolutely correctly.
> 
> Good luck with that!
>

So Judy and I have been correct: you really never learned TM, 
regardless of what classes/courses you took on the subject.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 10:23 AM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > Vaj, Rick says explicitly in what you quote that effort
> > is inappropriate even at subtle levels.
> >
> > I don't know what he means by either "attentiveness"
> > or "laxity," and I wish he'd expand a bit.  I can't
> > figure out what they would have to do with TM other
> > than following vs. not following instructions.
> 
> It's just nitpicking and semantics to keep splitting hairs over
> words when the meaning is clear to those who practice meditation.

Obviously they aren't clear to me, and I practice
meditation.

The point is, Vaj, words can mean different things to
different people, especially to different people
who practice different types of meditation.  The only
way to come to a common understanding of the terms is
to nitpick and split hairs and analyze the semantics
(and even then you may not succeed).

You like to assume what *you* understand the words to
mean is what everybody else understands and therefore
they apply in the same way to every type of meditation.
But that's just not the case.

 In any  
> style of meditation where you have an object of focus

Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.

--WHATEVER that  
> object may be, the subtle mechanics will require that you maintain  
> some species of global mindfulness in order to be able to meditate. 
> I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how 
> appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
> 
> "What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with 
> respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
> distraction."

As I understand this, it *would* apply to TM--except
that it's a DEscription of *what happens*, not a PRE-
scription for *what to do*.

> In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global 
> conditioned 'familiarity' is with the mantra and "non-distraction" 
> would refer to the vyuttana or outward, distracted tendency of 
> the "outward stroke". Since this so precisely and accurately 
> applies, what else need be said?

As long as you're talking about DEscription, nothing.
But it doesn't have anything to do with whether effort
is exerted during TM.

As long as the attention is on the mantra, "mindfulness"
and "nondistraction" are happening.  When another
thought intervenes, that's the outward stroke; the
"mindfulness" and "nondistraction" have ceased.

That's the effortless cycle I described earlier.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:36 AM, sparaig wrote:

> Huh, but one can have the "outward stroke" for the full 20 minutes of
> TM practice and still be practicing TM absolutely correctly.

Good luck with that!

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 10:23 AM, authfriend wrote:
> 
> > Vaj, Rick says explicitly in what you quote that effort
> > is inappropriate even at subtle levels.
> >
> > I don't know what he means by either "attentiveness"
> > or "laxity," and I wish he'd expand a bit.  I can't
> > figure out what they would have to do with TM other
> > than following vs. not following instructions.
> 
> It's just nitpicking and semantics to keep splitting hairs over 
words  
> when the meaning is clear to those who practice meditation. In any  
> style of meditation where you have an object of focus--WHATEVER 
that  
> object may be, the subtle mechanics will require that you maintain  
> some species of global mindfulness in order to be able to meditate. 
I  
> like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how 
appropriate  
> the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
> 
> "What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with 
respect  
> to a familiar object, having the function of non-distraction."
> 
> In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global 
conditioned 'familiarity'  
> is with the mantra and "non-distraction" would refer to the 
vyuttana  
> or outward, distracted tendency of the "outward stroke". Since 
this  
> so precisely and accurately applies, what else need be said?
>

Huh, but one can have the "outward stroke" for the full 20 minutes of 
TM practice and still be practicing TM absolutely correctly.

WHere's the non-forgetfulness there?






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

On Mar 15, 2006, at 10:23 AM, authfriend wrote:

> Vaj, Rick says explicitly in what you quote that effort
> is inappropriate even at subtle levels.
>
> I don't know what he means by either "attentiveness"
> or "laxity," and I wish he'd expand a bit.  I can't
> figure out what they would have to do with TM other
> than following vs. not following instructions.

It's just nitpicking and semantics to keep splitting hairs over words  
when the meaning is clear to those who practice meditation. In any  
style of meditation where you have an object of focus--WHATEVER that  
object may be, the subtle mechanics will require that you maintain  
some species of global mindfulness in order to be able to meditate. I  
like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how appropriate  
the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:

"What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with respect  
to a familiar object, having the function of non-distraction."

In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global conditioned 'familiarity'  
is with the mantra and "non-distraction" would refer to the vyuttana  
or outward, distracted tendency of the "outward stroke". Since this  
so precisely and accurately applies, what else need be said?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 14, 2006, at 6:05 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > But even someportion of some concentrative technique is 
effortless so
> > what is the difference then? MMY has set up a training procedure 
that
> > helps bring people to a state of "letting" better than 
concentration,
> > but if someone using some slight effort in their practice, that's 
how
> > it is. You can't be dilligent about getting rid of effort! And to 
me,
> > assigning a value-judgement to the effortlessness/non-
effortlessness
> > of their practice, assuming that they follow the instructions, is
> > definitely a value-judgement.
> 
> Here's some more evidence of subtle effort for positive support of
> the practice of TM (from an old post here). It actually involved 
> your post. These are classic elements of mindfulness (Rick uses the 
> word "attentiveness") to prevent laxity, a common, helpful element 
> in numerous forms of meditation:

Vaj, Rick says explicitly in what you quote that effort
is inappropriate even at subtle levels.

I don't know what he means by either "attentiveness"
or "laxity," and I wish he'd expand a bit.  I can't
figure out what they would have to do with TM other
than following vs. not following instructions.

Rick says attentiveness is a remedy for "allowing the
the mind to just mess around," but that doesn't really
clarify.

He also says he thinks cold baths and sitting without
back support were intended to combat "laxity," but both
of these are conditions set prior to practice, not
involving the practice itself.

Two other things:

First, Rick's account is of one of the six-month
courses, and the instructions given may or may not
be applicable for everyday meditation for rank-and-
filers.

Second, the quote from the Vedas, "Be easy to us with
gentle effort," also requires context.  Who is speaking
to whom?  Who is supposed to be easy to whom, and
under what circumstances?  Without that information,
I don't see how one can assert that the fact that the
words "gentle effort" are used in the quote means
MMY was saying one is supposed to use "gentle effort"
during TM practice.

> [FairfieldLife] TM & Laxity, was: For Vaj Re:Pitta-aggravating 
mantras
> Rick Archer
> Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:32:08 -0700
> 
> on 6/25/05 9:49 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>  >>
>  >> It would be interesting to hear others experiences in the area 
of TM
>  >> and laxity.
>  >
>  > Well, aside from the advice given that people who find 
themselves  
> sleeping a
>  > lot during TM
>  > should sleep more BEFORE TM?
>  >
>  > BTW, I go through periods where I sleep a lot during program, 
and  
> periods
>  > where I don't
>  > seem to sleep much. What is your explanation for that other 
than  
> MMY's, that
>  > the
>  > condition of my nervous system is different from time to time?
> 
> On the Santa Barbara ATR (winter 71-72) I told M that I fell 
asleep  
> in most
> of my meditations. He said "Some physical weakness. Try to remove 
the
> cause."
> 
> On my 6 month course (Courcheval, Spring-Fall 1975) M said that he  
> was going
> to try to turn us into yogis in 6 months. Two things he recommended 
were
> cold baths and sitting up without back support in meditation. I 
think  
> both
> of these, especially the latter, were prescriptions to combat 
laxity.  
> (He
> also said we were in a race or a contest to see who could purify the
> fastest, and to help us he had us fasting and trying all sorts of  
> healers
> brought in from around Europe).
> 
> I think the no effort thing is most relevant to grosser levels of
> experience, i.e., new meditators. At subtle levels effort also isn't
> appropriate, but attentiveness is. The advanced technique where 
you  
> focus on
> the heart area is certainly a form of attentiveness. I also find 
that  
> some
> gentle attentiveness vs. allowing the mind to just mess around 
makes  
> a big
> difference in terms of clarity and frequency of transcending.
> 
> At Estes Park, M quoted the Vedas as saying, "Be easy to us with 
gentle
> effort."
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread cardemaister

>
> 
> At Estes Park, M quoted the Vedas as saying, "Be easy to us with 
gentle
> effort."
>

Somehow sounds to me like Rgveda. Compare to the last
line of the first suukta (Agni):

sacasvaa naH svastaye (Abide with us for our well-being.)
(Macdonell)





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 14, 2006, at 6:05 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > But even someportion of some concentrative technique is 
effortless so
> > what is the difference then? MMY has set up a training procedure 
that
> > helps bring people to a state of "letting" better than 
concentration,
> > but if someone using some slight effort in their practice, that's 
how
> > it is. You can't be dilligent about getting rid of effort! And to 
me,
> > assigning a value-judgement to the effortlessness/non-
effortlessness
> > of their practice, assuming that they follow the instructions, is
> > definitely a value-judgement.
> 
> Here's some more evidence of subtle effort for positive support of  
> the practice of TM (from an old post here). It actually involved 
your  
> post. These are classic elements of mindfulness (Rick uses the 
word  
> "attentiveness") to prevent laxity, a common, helpful element in  
> numerous forms of meditation:
> 
> [FairfieldLife] TM & Laxity, was: For Vaj Re:Pitta-aggravating 
mantras
> Rick Archer
> Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:32:08 -0700
> 
> on 6/25/05 9:49 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>  >>
>  >> It would be interesting to hear others experiences in the area 
of TM
>  >> and laxity.
>  >
>  > Well, aside from the advice given that people who find 
themselves  
> sleeping a
>  > lot during TM
>  > should sleep more BEFORE TM?
>  >
>  > BTW, I go through periods where I sleep a lot during program, 
and  
> periods
>  > where I don't
>  > seem to sleep much. What is your explanation for that other 
than  
> MMY's, that
>  > the
>  > condition of my nervous system is different from time to time?
> 
> On the Santa Barbara ATR (winter 71-72) I told M that I fell 
asleep  
> in most
> of my meditations. He said "Some physical weakness. Try to remove 
the
> cause."
> 
> On my 6 month course (Courcheval, Spring-Fall 1975) M said that he  
> was going
> to try to turn us into yogis in 6 months. Two things he recommended 
were
> cold baths and sitting up without back support in meditation. I 
think  
> both
> of these, especially the latter, were prescriptions to combat 
laxity.  
> (He
> also said we were in a race or a contest to see who could purify the
> fastest, and to help us he had us fasting and trying all sorts of  
> healers
> brought in from around Europe).
> 
> I think the no effort thing is most relevant to grosser levels of
> experience, i.e., new meditators. At subtle levels effort also isn't
> appropriate, but attentiveness is. The advanced technique where 
you  
> focus on
> the heart area is certainly a form of attentiveness. 

Not in my mind.

I also find that  
> some
> gentle attentiveness vs. allowing the mind to just mess around 
makes  
> a big
> difference in terms of clarity and frequency of transcending.

BUt is that important?

> 
> At Estes Park, M quoted the Vedas as saying, "Be easy to us with 
gentle
> effort."
>

That's the MAximum effort, WORST-CASE scenario.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread Vaj

On Mar 14, 2006, at 6:05 PM, sparaig wrote:But even someportion of some concentrative technique is effortless so what is the difference then? MMY has set up a training procedure that helps bring people to a state of "letting" better than concentration, but if someone using some slight effort in their practice, that's how it is. You can't be dilligent about getting rid of effort! And to me, assigning a value-judgement to the effortlessness/non-effortlessness of their practice, assuming that they follow the instructions, is definitely a value-judgement.Here's some more evidence of subtle effort for positive support of the practice of TM (from an old post here). It actually involved your post. These are classic elements of mindfulness (Rick uses the word "attentiveness") to prevent laxity, a common, helpful element in numerous forms of meditation:[FairfieldLife] TM & Laxity, was: For Vaj Re:Pitta-aggravating mantrasRick ArcherSat, 25 Jun 2005 09:32:08 -0700on 6/25/05 9:49 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:>> >> It would be interesting to hear others experiences in the area of TM>> and laxity.> > Well, aside from the advice given that people who find themselves sleeping a> lot during TM > should sleep more BEFORE TM?> > BTW, I go through periods where I sleep a lot during program, and periods> where I don't > seem to sleep much. What is your explanation for that other than MMY's, that> the > condition of my nervous system is different from time to time?On the Santa Barbara ATR (winter 71-72) I told M that I fell asleep in mostof my meditations. He said "Some physical weakness. Try to remove thecause."On my 6 month course (Courcheval, Spring-Fall 1975) M said that he was goingto try to turn us into yogis in 6 months. Two things he recommended werecold baths and sitting up without back support in meditation. I think bothof these, especially the latter, were prescriptions to combat laxity. (Healso said we were in a race or a contest to see who could purify thefastest, and to help us he had us fasting and trying all sorts of healersbrought in from around Europe).I think the no effort thing is most relevant to grosser levels ofexperience, i.e., new meditators. At subtle levels effort also isn'tappropriate, but attentiveness is. The advanced technique where you focus onthe heart area is certainly a form of attentiveness. I also find that somegentle attentiveness vs. allowing the mind to just mess around makes a bigdifference in terms of clarity and frequency of transcending.At Estes Park, M quoted the Vedas as saying, "Be easy to us with gentleeffort."

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
> wrote:
> > 
> > > > What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
> > > > percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
> > > > So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
> > > > for a portion of that session.
> > > 
> > > I would say, rather, that as long as you have the understanding
> > > that no effort is *required*, that your practice of TM, no 
matter 
> > > if 100% effortless, or only 97.3% effortless (or whatever), is 
> > > still a valid TM session.
> > 
> > This isn't "rather."  I would agree: as long as *some* 
> > percentage of a session is effortless, it's a "valid"
> > TM session.  By which I mean, any session of which a
> > portion is TM (i.e., effortless) is a TM session.
> 
> But even someportion of some concentrative technique is effortless
> so what is the difference then?

*If* some portion is effortless, then it's de facto TM,
whatever it may be called.  For the differences, you'd
have to determine relative percentages of the sessions
that were effortless vs. with effort, plus compare the
results over time.

> MMY has set up a training procedure that 
> helps bring people to a state of "letting" better than 
> concentration, but if someone using some slight effort in their 
> practice, that's how it is. You can't be dilligent about getting 
> rid of effort!

Right, "diligence" is not what's needed.

I'm not criticizing people who are inadvertently
using effort.  I'm criticizing the view that TM
*requires* effort.

 And to me, assigning a value-judgement to the 
> effortlessness/non-effortlessness of their practice, assuming that 
> they follow the instructions, is definitely a value-judgement.

Well, yes, assigning a value judgment is definitely
assigning a value judgment.  

I'm not assigning a value judgment, however.  That's
a different issue.  All I'm saying is: *This* is TM
(effortless) and *that* is not TM (some effort).

> > > Assigning value judgements to your 
> > > practice isn't the best way to spend your time...
> > 
> > Right.  Were you thinking that this is what I do?
> 
> Sure sounds like.

Wrongo.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
wrote:
> 
> > > What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
> > > percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
> > > So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
> > > for a portion of that session.
> > 
> > I would say, rather, that as long as you have the understanding
> > that no effort is *required*, that your practice of TM, no matter 
> > if 100% effortless, or only 97.3% effortless (or whatever), is 
> > still a valid TM session.
> 
> This isn't "rather."  I would agree: as long as *some* 
> percentage of a session is effortless, it's a "valid"
> TM session.  By which I mean, any session of which a
> portion is TM (i.e., effortless) is a TM session.

But even someportion of some concentrative technique is effortless so 
what is the difference then? MMY has set up a training procedure that 
helps bring people to a state of "letting" better than concentration, 
but if someone using some slight effort in their practice, that's how 
it is. You can't be dilligent about getting rid of effort! And to me, 
assigning a value-judgement to the effortlessness/non-effortlessness 
of their practice, assuming that they follow the instructions, is 
definitely a value-judgement.

> 
> > Assigning value judgements to your 
> > practice isn't the best way to spend your time...
> 
> Right.  Were you thinking that this is what I do?
>

Sure sounds like.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread cardemaister

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister  
> wrote:
> >
> > 0> > I did say in that in the early stages there may be
> > > > some very slight effort until the automatic cycle
> > > > is established.
> > > 
> > > What if that "automatic cycle" is NEVER established? Does this 
> mean 
> > > that someone is doing it "incorrectly?"
> > > 
> > 
> > I guess many people who for instance see different colours when 
> they 
> > hear sounds of different pitches think that everybody has that
> > gift. My TM-instructor said, as I recall it, that some people have
> > "echo-mantra", and for them TM is especially easy to learn, 
because 
> > there certainly is absolutely no effort when they
> > are meditating.
> 
> Just for the record, it was some months after I learned
> to meditate that it began to be completely effortless.
> I'm not sure what "echo-mantra" is, or whether I "have"
> it even now, but I seriously doubt I "had" it when I
> started.
> 
> Also, to clarify something: To this day, I don't
> always have 100 percent effortless meditations all
> the way through a meditation session by any means;
> and as I've described elsewhere, I had a period of
> some months awhile back in which meditation always
> had some subtle effort.
> 
> What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
> percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
> So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
> for a portion of that session.
> 
> > That "automatic cycle" might be a slightly different
> > thing, but I wouldn't say my meditation is like that. As I've told
> > before, I sometimes even pay some attention to the final sound
> > of my mantra, because my mother tongue doesn't have that sound
> > *at the end of words*, excepting a couple of onomatopoetic words.
> 
> Have you consulted a TM teacher about this?
>

No, I haven't, but I'm quite sure during my initiation
my TM instructor emphasized the importance of the
last sound of my mantra, despite the fact that my
wild imagination every now and then tends to play games
with me and distort my memories...





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:

> > What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
> > percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
> > So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
> > for a portion of that session.
> 
> I would say, rather, that as long as you have the understanding
> that no effort is *required*, that your practice of TM, no matter 
> if 100% effortless, or only 97.3% effortless (or whatever), is 
> still a valid TM session.

This isn't "rather."  I would agree: as long as *some* 
percentage of a session is effortless, it's a "valid"
TM session.  By which I mean, any session of which a
portion is TM (i.e., effortless) is a TM session.

> Assigning value judgements to your 
> practice isn't the best way to spend your time...

Right.  Were you thinking that this is what I do?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister  
> wrote:
> >
> > 0> > I did say in that in the early stages there may be
> > > > some very slight effort until the automatic cycle
> > > > is established.
> > > 
> > > What if that "automatic cycle" is NEVER established? Does this 
> mean 
> > > that someone is doing it "incorrectly?"
> > > 
> > 
> > I guess many people who for instance see different colours when 
> they 
> > hear sounds of different pitches think that everybody has that
> > gift. My TM-instructor said, as I recall it, that some people have
> > "echo-mantra", and for them TM is especially easy to learn, 
because 
> > there certainly is absolutely no effort when they
> > are meditating.
> 
> Just for the record, it was some months after I learned
> to meditate that it began to be completely effortless.
> I'm not sure what "echo-mantra" is, or whether I "have"
> it even now, but I seriously doubt I "had" it when I
> started.
> 
> Also, to clarify something: To this day, I don't
> always have 100 percent effortless meditations all
> the way through a meditation session by any means;
> and as I've described elsewhere, I had a period of
> some months awhile back in which meditation always
> had some subtle effort.
> 
> What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
> percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
> So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
> for a portion of that session.

I would say, rather, that as long as you have the understanding that 
no effort is *required*, that your practice of TM, no matter if 100% 
effortless, or only 97.3% effortless (or whatever), is still a valid 
TM session. Assigning value judgements to your practice isn't the 
best way to spend your time...

> 
> > That "automatic cycle" might be a slightly different
> > thing, but I wouldn't say my meditation is like that. As I've told
> > before, I sometimes even pay some attention to the final sound
> > of my mantra, because my mother tongue doesn't have that sound
> > *at the end of words*, excepting a couple of onomatopoetic words.
> 
> Have you consulted a TM teacher about this?
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 13, 2006, at 11:25 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > > > > Yeah, but as I say, effortlessness in the TM sense
> > > > > *can't* be an expectation.  You can only expect
> > > > > *something*, you can't expect *nothing*.  Or to put
> > > > > it another way, any expectation of effortlessness
> > > > > that you might have wouldn't be effortlessness in the
> > > > > TM experiential sense.  An expectation is
> > > > > intellectual; effortlessness isn't.  Apples and
> > > > > oranges.
> > > >
> > > > But you are the one who said that people who don't have YOUR
> > > > experience haven't "gotten" TM. That's an expectation, by
> > > > definition.
> > >
> > > An expectation of what?  And how would it affect one's
> > > practice?
> > >
> >
> > Expectations effect everything we do. If you expect TM to  
include a
> > certain kind of experience than you're practicing that experience.
> 
> It is a form of mindfullnessAs is "remembering" to bring  
> awareness back to the mantra or even once subconsciously 
conditioned  
> "automatic reacquisition" of the mantra impulse--called "patched"  
> placement and "close' placement in previous examples.
>

Sure, but my OWN TM practice often varies quite a bit from the 
previous practice, and even from moment to moment within the same 
period of practice. Even mindfulness doesn't describe my practice at 
times where I can become aware that I'm not thinking the mantra and 
then realize that actually, I probably WAS thinking the mantra while 
other stuff was being thought as well. My realization that "I'm not 
thinking the mantra" often brings to mind something so subtle that 
its only by contrast that I feel even remotely comfortable with 
calling it "my mantra."

At the other end of my experiences, Benson's relaxation response 
seems easy and spontaneous by comparison. And no doubt, I'll 
have/have had some other experiences as well. Etc.Etc.etc.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> 0> > I did say in that in the early stages there may be
> > > some very slight effort until the automatic cycle
> > > is established.
> > 
> > What if that "automatic cycle" is NEVER established? Does this 
mean 
> > that someone is doing it "incorrectly?"
> > 
> 
> I guess many people who for instance see different colours when 
they 
> hear sounds of different pitches think that everybody has that
> gift. My TM-instructor said, as I recall it, that some people have
> "echo-mantra", and for them TM is especially easy to learn, because 
> there certainly is absolutely no effort when they
> are meditating. That "automatic cycle" might be a slightly different
> thing, but I wouldn't say my meditation is like that. As I've told
> before, I sometimes even pay some attention to the final sound
> of my mantra, because my mother tongue doesn't have that sound
> *at the end of words*, excepting a couple of onomatopoetic words.
>

It might be good to get checked...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> 0> > I did say in that in the early stages there may be
> > > some very slight effort until the automatic cycle
> > > is established.
> > 
> > What if that "automatic cycle" is NEVER established? Does this 
mean 
> > that someone is doing it "incorrectly?"
> > 
> 
> I guess many people who for instance see different colours when 
they 
> hear sounds of different pitches think that everybody has that
> gift. My TM-instructor said, as I recall it, that some people have
> "echo-mantra", and for them TM is especially easy to learn, because 
> there certainly is absolutely no effort when they
> are meditating.

Just for the record, it was some months after I learned
to meditate that it began to be completely effortless.
I'm not sure what "echo-mantra" is, or whether I "have"
it even now, but I seriously doubt I "had" it when I
started.

Also, to clarify something: To this day, I don't
always have 100 percent effortless meditations all
the way through a meditation session by any means;
and as I've described elsewhere, I had a period of
some months awhile back in which meditation always
had some subtle effort.

What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
for a portion of that session.

> That "automatic cycle" might be a slightly different
> thing, but I wouldn't say my meditation is like that. As I've told
> before, I sometimes even pay some attention to the final sound
> of my mantra, because my mother tongue doesn't have that sound
> *at the end of words*, excepting a couple of onomatopoetic words.

Have you consulted a TM teacher about this?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread Vaj

On Mar 13, 2006, at 11:25 PM, sparaig wrote:

> > > > Yeah, but as I say, effortlessness in the TM sense
> > > > *can't* be an expectation.  You can only expect
> > > > *something*, you can't expect *nothing*.  Or to put
> > > > it another way, any expectation of effortlessness
> > > > that you might have wouldn't be effortlessness in the
> > > > TM experiential sense.  An expectation is
> > > > intellectual; effortlessness isn't.  Apples and
> > > > oranges.
> > >
> > > But you are the one who said that people who don't have YOUR
> > > experience haven't "gotten" TM. That's an expectation, by
> > > definition.
> >
> > An expectation of what?  And how would it affect one's
> > practice?
> >
>
> Expectations effect everything we do. If you expect TM to  include a
> certain kind of experience than you're practicing that experience.

It is a form of mindfullnessAs is "remembering" to bring  
awareness back to the mantra or even once subconsciously conditioned  
"automatic reacquisition" of the mantra impulse--called "patched"  
placement and "close' placement in previous examples.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-13 Thread cardemaister

0> > I did say in that in the early stages there may be
> > some very slight effort until the automatic cycle
> > is established.
> 
> What if that "automatic cycle" is NEVER established? Does this mean 
> that someone is doing it "incorrectly?"
> 

I guess many people who for instance see different colours when they 
hear sounds of different pitches think that everybody has that
gift. My TM-instructor said, as I recall it, that some people have
"echo-mantra", and for them TM is especially easy to learn, because 
there certainly is absolutely no effort when they
are meditating. That "automatic cycle" might be a slightly different
thing, but I wouldn't say my meditation is like that. As I've told
before, I sometimes even pay some attention to the final sound
of my mantra, because my mother tongue doesn't have that sound
*at the end of words*, excepting a couple of onomatopoetic words.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:

> > I did say in that in the early stages there may be
> > some very slight effort until the automatic cycle
> > is established.
> 
> What if that "automatic cycle" is NEVER established? Does this mean 
> that someone is doing it "incorrectly?"

I think so, yes.  Although I suspect that most people
who continue to experience effort eventually quit.

> > > But you are the one who said that people who don't have YOUR 
> > > experience haven't "gotten" TM. That's an expectation, by 
> > > definition.
> > 
> > An expectation of what?  And how would it affect one's
> > practice?
> 
> Expectations effect everything we do. If you expect TM to  include
> a certain kind of experience than you're practicing that experience.

Again, in this case, an expectation of *what*?  And
how would it affect one's meditation?

In any case, we don't "do" TM--we not-do it.  And you
can't "practice effortlessness" in the TM sense of
"effortless," as I keep pointing out.

You *can* practice effort if you believe effort is
involved, though.  But then you aren't practicing TM.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
>  
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" 
>  
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
> > >  
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > > > True, but not necessarily "sad," if you mean 
they're 
> not
> > > > > > > > > experiencing transcendental consciousness by 
itself.  
> If
> > > > > > > > > the process never becomes automatic, that 
*is* "sad," 
> > but
> > > > > > > > > only in the sense that the person hasn't really got 
> the
> > > > > > > > > knack of TM.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Kill that Buddha, Judy. You're addicted to absolute 
> > > > > > effortlessness.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I was serious Judy.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I know you were.  I was appreciating the comment.
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Perhaps TM is always effortless for you in the 
> > > > > > way that you have described, but you presented it as 
> somehow 
> > > > > > *superior* to someone who doesn't have that experience.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Depends what you mean by "superior."  All I'm saying
> > > > > is that this is what TM *is*.  I don't give myself
> > > > > any credit for having this experience.
> > > > 
> > > > By contrast, you implied superiority: you said anyone who 
didn't
> > > > have that experience hadn't gotten the knack of TM.
> > > 
> > > Certainly not *personal* superiority.  But if you want
> > > to do TM, it's "better" to get the knack of it than
> > > not, right?  That's the only sense of "superiority" I
> > > had in mind.
> > 
> > That's what I meant. Superiority and inferiority of a knack don't 
> > make sense at all in the TM context.
> 
> Right.  There's doing TM, and there's not doing TM.
> I'm saying if it isn't effortless, it's not TM.
> 
> > > > > I just think that claiming that TM inherently involves
> > > > > effort is a self-fulfilling prophecy for those who buy
> > > > > into it.  I'm using my own experience to argue against
> > > > > this claim because it's the only experience about which
> > > > > I can speak with any authority.
> > > > 
> > > > My own take is that MMY struck the balance he intended to 
> strike 
> > > > between expectations of effort and non-effort. If you believe 
> > > > that "real" TM is always effortless, you are lead into one 
> trap. 
> > If 
> > > > you believe that "real" TM always involves at least some 
subtle 
> > > > effort, you're lead into another.
> > > 
> > > You may be right with regard to people who are just
> > > learning; "innocence" is important.
> > 
> > And innocence isn't important for those in the know? for those 
who 
> > have got the "knack?"
> 
> Well, see below.  It's already no longer innocent if
> somebody is insisting TM requires effort.  I don't
> know how you can respond to that innocently.
> 
> > Kill that Buddha, Judy. It's similar to those who tout their own 
> > technique as superior in inducing samadhi for longer periods as 
> > though this means anything.
> 
> Jeez.  No, it isn't.
> 
> I only mention the research on samadhi in 
> > TM because there doesn't seem to be ANY such research on other 
> > techniques not because someone who is experiencing samadhi during 
> TM 
> > more often than someone who isn't has "gotten it" in some waythat 
> the 
> > other person hasn't.
> 
> This doesn't have anything to do with experiencing
> samadhi or not, or whether TM is superior or not.
> It has only to do with what the *method* is.
> 
> Vaj has been characterizing the method incorrectly,
> and based on his mischaracterizations, making
> incorrect claims.  This can be very convincing
> if you don't spot the mischaracterizations.
> 
> > > Where this started was my mention of Vaj's post
> > > some months back in which he analyzed the checking
> > > procedure in such a way as to *prove*--he thought--
> > > that TM *requires* effort.  (Unfortunately he deleted
> > > the post after I asked him if he'd repost it to
> > > alt.m.t, so we can't refer to it now.)
> > > 
> > > In such a context, I think it's important to challenge
> > > that view.
> > > 
> > > MMY strikes a balance by not insisting on either
> > > effortlessness or effort; but when somebody's
> > > pounding the table and insisting that it *does*
> > > require effort, the only way to strike a balance
> > > is to pound the table and insist that it's
> > > effortless.  (And hopefully be able to back it
> > > up.)
> >

[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 13, 2006, at 6:38 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > > Yeah, but as I say, effortlessness in the TM sense
> > > *can't* be an expectation.  You can only expect
> > > *something*, you can't expect *nothing*.  Or to put
> > > it another way, any expectation of effortlessness
> > > that you might have wouldn't be effortlessness in the
> > > TM experiential sense.  An expectation is
> > > intellectual; effortlessness isn't.  Apples and
> > > oranges.
> > >
> >
> > But you are the one who said that people who don't have YOUR
> > experience haven't "gotten" TM. That's an expectation, by 
definition.
> 
> Haven't you heard? It's now called Judith Stein's Transcendental  
> Meditation.
> 
> :-)))
>

As opposed to Vaj's every-other-kind-of-meditation?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
 
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" 
 
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
> >  
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > > True, but not necessarily "sad," if you mean they're 
not
> > > > > > > > experiencing transcendental consciousness by itself.  
If
> > > > > > > > the process never becomes automatic, that *is* "sad," 
> but
> > > > > > > > only in the sense that the person hasn't really got 
the
> > > > > > > > knack of TM.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Kill that Buddha, Judy. You're addicted to absolute 
> > > > > effortlessness.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I was serious Judy.
> > > > 
> > > > I know you were.  I was appreciating the comment.
> > > > 
> > > > > Perhaps TM is always effortless for you in the 
> > > > > way that you have described, but you presented it as 
somehow 
> > > > > *superior* to someone who doesn't have that experience.
> > > > 
> > > > Depends what you mean by "superior."  All I'm saying
> > > > is that this is what TM *is*.  I don't give myself
> > > > any credit for having this experience.
> > > 
> > > By contrast, you implied superiority: you said anyone who didn't
> > > have that experience hadn't gotten the knack of TM.
> > 
> > Certainly not *personal* superiority.  But if you want
> > to do TM, it's "better" to get the knack of it than
> > not, right?  That's the only sense of "superiority" I
> > had in mind.
> 
> That's what I meant. Superiority and inferiority of a knack don't 
> make sense at all in the TM context.

Right.  There's doing TM, and there's not doing TM.
I'm saying if it isn't effortless, it's not TM.

> > > > I just think that claiming that TM inherently involves
> > > > effort is a self-fulfilling prophecy for those who buy
> > > > into it.  I'm using my own experience to argue against
> > > > this claim because it's the only experience about which
> > > > I can speak with any authority.
> > > 
> > > My own take is that MMY struck the balance he intended to 
strike 
> > > between expectations of effort and non-effort. If you believe 
> > > that "real" TM is always effortless, you are lead into one 
trap. 
> If 
> > > you believe that "real" TM always involves at least some subtle 
> > > effort, you're lead into another.
> > 
> > You may be right with regard to people who are just
> > learning; "innocence" is important.
> 
> And innocence isn't important for those in the know? for those who 
> have got the "knack?"

Well, see below.  It's already no longer innocent if
somebody is insisting TM requires effort.  I don't
know how you can respond to that innocently.

> Kill that Buddha, Judy. It's similar to those who tout their own 
> technique as superior in inducing samadhi for longer periods as 
> though this means anything.

Jeez.  No, it isn't.

I only mention the research on samadhi in 
> TM because there doesn't seem to be ANY such research on other 
> techniques not because someone who is experiencing samadhi during 
TM 
> more often than someone who isn't has "gotten it" in some waythat 
the 
> other person hasn't.

This doesn't have anything to do with experiencing
samadhi or not, or whether TM is superior or not.
It has only to do with what the *method* is.

Vaj has been characterizing the method incorrectly,
and based on his mischaracterizations, making
incorrect claims.  This can be very convincing
if you don't spot the mischaracterizations.

> > Where this started was my mention of Vaj's post
> > some months back in which he analyzed the checking
> > procedure in such a way as to *prove*--he thought--
> > that TM *requires* effort.  (Unfortunately he deleted
> > the post after I asked him if he'd repost it to
> > alt.m.t, so we can't refer to it now.)
> > 
> > In such a context, I think it's important to challenge
> > that view.
> > 
> > MMY strikes a balance by not insisting on either
> > effortlessness or effort; but when somebody's
> > pounding the table and insisting that it *does*
> > require effort, the only way to strike a balance
> > is to pound the table and insist that it's
> > effortless.  (And hopefully be able to back it
> > up.)
> 
> More constructive is to cite instances in your own meditative 
> experience where effort was not *required*. Keyword is *required*. 
> Trying to argue whether or not the technique is 100% effotless at 
> all times is futile and actually 100% counterproductive.

What's counterproductive is using effort in TM.

I did say in that in

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-13 Thread Vaj

On Mar 13, 2006, at 6:38 PM, sparaig wrote:

> > Yeah, but as I say, effortlessness in the TM sense
> > *can't* be an expectation.  You can only expect
> > *something*, you can't expect *nothing*.  Or to put
> > it another way, any expectation of effortlessness
> > that you might have wouldn't be effortlessness in the
> > TM experiential sense.  An expectation is
> > intellectual; effortlessness isn't.  Apples and
> > oranges.
> >
>
> But you are the one who said that people who don't have YOUR
> experience haven't "gotten" TM. That's an expectation, by definition.

Haven't you heard? It's now called Judith Stein's Transcendental  
Meditation.

:-)))

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
>  
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > True, but not necessarily "sad," if you mean they're not
> > > > > > > experiencing transcendental consciousness by itself.  If
> > > > > > > the process never becomes automatic, that *is* "sad," 
but
> > > > > > > only in the sense that the person hasn't really got the
> > > > > > > knack of TM.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Kill that Buddha, Judy. You're addicted to absolute 
> > > > effortlessness.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I was serious Judy.
> > > 
> > > I know you were.  I was appreciating the comment.
> > > 
> > > > Perhaps TM is always effortless for you in the 
> > > > way that you have described, but you presented it as somehow 
> > > > *superior* to someone who doesn't have that experience.
> > > 
> > > Depends what you mean by "superior."  All I'm saying
> > > is that this is what TM *is*.  I don't give myself
> > > any credit for having this experience.
> > 
> > By contrast, you implied superiority: you said anyone who didn't
> > have that experience hadn't gotten the knack of TM.
> 
> Certainly not *personal* superiority.  But if you want
> to do TM, it's "better" to get the knack of it than
> not, right?  That's the only sense of "superiority" I
> had in mind.

That's what I meant. Superiority and inferiority of a knack don't 
make sense at all in the TM context.

> 
> > > I just think that claiming that TM inherently involves
> > > effort is a self-fulfilling prophecy for those who buy
> > > into it.  I'm using my own experience to argue against
> > > this claim because it's the only experience about which
> > > I can speak with any authority.
> > 
> > My own take is that MMY struck the balance he intended to strike 
> > between expectations of effort and non-effort. If you believe 
> > that "real" TM is always effortless, you are lead into one trap. 
If 
> > you believe that "real" TM always involves at least some subtle 
> > effort, you're lead into another.
> 
> You may be right with regard to people who are just
> learning; "innocence" is important.

And innocence isn't important for those in the know? for those who 
have got the "knack?"

Kill that Buddha, Judy. It's similar to those who tout their own 
technique as superior in inducing samadhi for longer periods as 
though this means anything.I only mention the research on samadhi in 
TM because there doesn't seem to be ANY such research on other 
techniques not because someone who is experiencing samadhi during TM 
more often than someone who isn't has "gotten it" in some waythat the 
other person hasn't.

> 
> Where this started was my mention of Vaj's post
> some months back in which he analyzed the checking
> procedure in such a way as to *prove*--he thought--
> that TM *requires* effort.  (Unfortunately he deleted
> the post after I asked him if he'd repost it to
> alt.m.t, so we can't refer to it now.)
> 
> In such a context, I think it's important to challenge
> that view.
> 
> MMY strikes a balance by not insisting on either
> effortlessness or effort; but when somebody's
> pounding the table and insisting that it *does*
> require effort, the only way to strike a balance
> is to pound the table and insist that it's
> effortless.  (And hopefully be able to back it
> up.)

More constructive is to cite instances in your own meditative 
experience where effort was not *required*. Keyword is *required*. 
Trying to argue whether or not the technique is 100% effotless at all 
times is futile and actually 100% counterproductive.

> 
> > > > That's a subtle expectation, right there.
> > > 
> > > Ooh, I dunno, not during meditation itself, it 
> > > isn't.  Effortlessness in the TM sense *can't* be
> > > an expectation, it can only be an experience (or,
> > > as you often point out about transcendence, the
> > > *absence* of experience: there's no "there" there).
> > 
> > Meditation isn't a light-switch, in my experience. You don't 
start 
> > meditating and somehow leave all expecations behind (unless you 
do 
> > the big-T transcend immediately for the full 20 minutes). Your 
> > expectations about TM outside TM practice certainly influence 
what 
> > goes on *during* TM practice.
> 
> Yeah, but as I say, effortlessness in the TM sense
> *can't* be an expectation.  You can only expect
> *something*, you can't expect *nothing*.  Or to put
> it another way, any expectation of effortlessness
> that you might have wouldn't be effortlessness in the
> TM experientia

[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 

> > > wrote:
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > > True, but not necessarily "sad," if you mean they're not
> > > > > > experiencing transcendental consciousness by itself.  If
> > > > > > the process never becomes automatic, that *is* "sad," but
> > > > > > only in the sense that the person hasn't really got the
> > > > > > knack of TM.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Kill that Buddha, Judy. You're addicted to absolute 
> > > effortlessness.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I was serious Judy.
> > 
> > I know you were.  I was appreciating the comment.
> > 
> > > Perhaps TM is always effortless for you in the 
> > > way that you have described, but you presented it as somehow 
> > > *superior* to someone who doesn't have that experience.
> > 
> > Depends what you mean by "superior."  All I'm saying
> > is that this is what TM *is*.  I don't give myself
> > any credit for having this experience.
> 
> By contrast, you implied superiority: you said anyone who didn't
> have that experience hadn't gotten the knack of TM.

Certainly not *personal* superiority.  But if you want
to do TM, it's "better" to get the knack of it than
not, right?  That's the only sense of "superiority" I
had in mind.

> > I just think that claiming that TM inherently involves
> > effort is a self-fulfilling prophecy for those who buy
> > into it.  I'm using my own experience to argue against
> > this claim because it's the only experience about which
> > I can speak with any authority.
> 
> My own take is that MMY struck the balance he intended to strike 
> between expectations of effort and non-effort. If you believe 
> that "real" TM is always effortless, you are lead into one trap. If 
> you believe that "real" TM always involves at least some subtle 
> effort, you're lead into another.

You may be right with regard to people who are just
learning; "innocence" is important.

Where this started was my mention of Vaj's post
some months back in which he analyzed the checking
procedure in such a way as to *prove*--he thought--
that TM *requires* effort.  (Unfortunately he deleted
the post after I asked him if he'd repost it to
alt.m.t, so we can't refer to it now.)

In such a context, I think it's important to challenge
that view.

MMY strikes a balance by not insisting on either
effortlessness or effort; but when somebody's
pounding the table and insisting that it *does*
require effort, the only way to strike a balance
is to pound the table and insist that it's
effortless.  (And hopefully be able to back it
up.)

> > > That's a subtle expectation, right there.
> > 
> > Ooh, I dunno, not during meditation itself, it 
> > isn't.  Effortlessness in the TM sense *can't* be
> > an expectation, it can only be an experience (or,
> > as you often point out about transcendence, the
> > *absence* of experience: there's no "there" there).
> 
> Meditation isn't a light-switch, in my experience. You don't start 
> meditating and somehow leave all expecations behind (unless you do 
> the big-T transcend immediately for the full 20 minutes). Your 
> expectations about TM outside TM practice certainly influence what 
> goes on *during* TM practice.

Yeah, but as I say, effortlessness in the TM sense
*can't* be an expectation.  You can only expect
*something*, you can't expect *nothing*.  Or to put
it another way, any expectation of effortlessness
that you might have wouldn't be effortlessness in the
TM experiential sense.  An expectation is
intellectual; effortlessness isn't.  Apples and
oranges.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
> > wrote:
> > > > [...]
> > > > > True, but not necessarily "sad," if you mean they're not
> > > > > experiencing transcendental consciousness by itself.  If
> > > > > the process never becomes automatic, that *is* "sad," but
> > > > > only in the sense that the person hasn't really got the
> > > > > knack of TM.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Kill that Buddha, Judy. You're addicted to absolute 
> > effortlessness.
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > I was serious Judy.
> 
> I know you were.  I was appreciating the comment.
> 
> > Perhaps TM is always effortless for you in the 
> > way that you have described, but you presented it as somehow 
> > *superior* to someone who doesn't have that experience.
> 
> Depends what you mean by "superior."  All I'm saying
> is that this is what TM *is*.  I don't give myself
> any credit for having this experience.

By contrast, you implied superiority: you said anyone who didn't have 
that experience hadn't gotten the knack of TM.

> 
> I just think that claiming that TM inherently involves
> effort is a self-fulfilling prophecy for those who buy
> into it.  I'm using my own experience to argue against
> this claim because it's the only experience about which
> I can speak with any authority.

My own take is that MMY struck the balance he intended to strike 
between expectations of effort and non-effort. If you believe 
that "real" TM is always effortless, you are lead into one trap. If 
you believe that "real" TM always involves at least some subtle 
effort, you're lead into another. 

> 
> > That's a subtle expectation, right there.
> 
> Ooh, I dunno, not during meditation itself, it 
> isn't.  Effortlessness in the TM sense *can't* be
> an expectation, it can only be an experience (or,
> as you often point out about transcendence, the
> *absence* of experience: there's no "there" there).
>

Meditation isn't a light-switch, in my experience. You don't start 
meditating and somehow leave all expecations behind (unless you do 
the big-T transcend immediately for the full 20 minutes). Your 
expectations about TM outside TM practice certainly influence what 
goes on *during* TM practice.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
> wrote:
> >
> > At one point, clergypersons were required...
> 
> Just as a suggestion, doncha think 'clergy'
> avoids the gender issue just fine, and without 
> sounding so politically correct and silly?

Yup.  I think what I was doing was emphasizing
that I was talking about *people* rather than
some abstract class.  But you're right, "clergy"
would have done just as well.

> > ...to take the
> > SCI course before they could apply to learn the TM
> > technique, so it wasn't "applied" transcending, but
> > rather transcending in the abstract.
> > 
> > At any rate, I don't think anyone has ever claimed that
> > SCI was simple in the same sense the TM technique is
> > simple.  "Succinct," maybe, although I'm not sure I'd
> > agree with you on that.  More succinct than other
> > intellectual presentations, perhaps.
> >
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-13 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> At one point, clergypersons were required...

Just as a suggestion, doncha think 'clergy'
avoids the gender issue just fine, and without 
sounding so politically correct and silly?

> ...to take the
> SCI course before they could apply to learn the TM
> technique, so it wasn't "applied" transcending, but
> rather transcending in the abstract.
> 
> At any rate, I don't think anyone has ever claimed that
> SCI was simple in the same sense the TM technique is
> simple.  "Succinct," maybe, although I'm not sure I'd
> agree with you on that.  More succinct than other
> intellectual presentations, perhaps.
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > 
> > > On Mar 13, 2006, at 2:41 AM, sparaig wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Of course, we TBers wanna know WHY you're insisting on adding 
> > > > layers of complexity to simplicity...
> > > 
> > > Yeah SCI was real succinct.
> > 
> > SCI isn't about the *technique* per se.
> 
> Well, part of it DID go into the mechanics of transcending, IIRC.

Yeah, but not about "how" to transcend, at least not
that I remember.

At one point, clergypersons were required to take the
SCI course before they could apply to learn the TM
technique, so it wasn't "applied" transcending, but
rather transcending in the abstract.

At any rate, I don't think anyone has ever claimed that
SCI was simple in the same sense the TM technique is
simple.  "Succinct," maybe, although I'm not sure I'd
agree with you on that.  More succinct than other
intellectual presentations, perhaps.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?