Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
of course it sounds better in modern context - he was able to sell it so
religious people, and it sat better with secular people too - he was a liar and
a con artist whether you like it or not
On Sat, 5/3/14, lengli...@cox.net lengli...@cox.net wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR
afterall
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 1:20 AM
Maharishi, in later life, tried to clarify what he
means by devas (Hindu gods and goddesses).
A claim that he was lying because he
attempted to use less confusing/procative terms when dealing
with Westerners (e.g. devas are fundamental
impulses/vibrations of pure consciousness) is
unwarranted.
The
term deva literally translates as shining
one from Sansrkit, and in the context of dhyan and the
Yoga Sutras, where
it says that any attractive object of attention can be used
as an ishtadeva [cherished shining one], to say
that TM mantras are sounds chosen for their attractive
effect during meditation captures the intent of the Yoga
Sutras better in a modern context than saying that mantras
fetch us the grace of personal
gods.
Otherwise, you're insisting that
using the word booyah or some random visual
image as your ishtadeva during meditation is to make
booyah or the random visual image a sacred
deity because that is literally what the Yoga Sutra says if
you insist that deva is a deity in all
contexts.
L
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938 --
#yiv9958394938ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938ygrp-mkp #yiv9958394938hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938ygrp-mkp #yiv9958394938ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938ygrp-mkp .yiv9958394938ad {
padding:0 0;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938ygrp-mkp .yiv9958394938ad p {
margin:0;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938ygrp-mkp .yiv9958394938ad a {
color:#ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9958394938ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9958394938ygrp-lc #yiv9958394938hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9958394938ygrp-lc .yiv9958394938ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938activity span {
font-weight:700;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}
#yiv9958394938 #yiv9958394938activity span
.yiv9958394938underline {
text-decoration:underline;}
#yiv9958394938 .yiv9958394938attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}
#yiv9958394938 .yiv9958394938attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9958394938 .yiv9958394938attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}
#yiv9958394938 .yiv9958394938attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}
#yiv9958394938 .yiv9958394938attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9958394938 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}
#yiv9958394938 .yiv9958394938bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}
#yiv9958394938 .yiv9958394938bold a {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9958394938 dd.yiv9958394938last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}
#yiv9958394938 dd.yiv9958394938last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}
#yiv9958394938 dd.yiv9958394938last p
span.yiv9958394938yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}
#yiv9958394938 div.yiv9958394938attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9958394938 div.yiv9958394938attach-table {
width:400px;}
#yiv9958394938 div.yiv9958394938file-title a, #yiv9958394938
div.yiv9958394938file-title a:active, #yiv9958394938
div.yiv9958394938file-title a:hover, #yiv9958394938
div.yiv9958394938file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9958394938 div.yiv9958394938photo-title a,
#yiv9958394938 div.yiv9958394938photo-title a:active,
#yiv9958394938 div.yiv9958394938photo-title a:hover,
#yiv9958394938 div.yiv9958394938photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9958394938 div#yiv9958394938ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv9958394938ygrp-msg p a span.yiv9958394938yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
Maharishi didn't try or modify anything late in life. He simply saw that the transformation of world consciousness, for which he was more than partly responsible, had become enough mature to be confronted with the obvious. The long period of massaging the scientific world was over. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Maharishi, in later life, tried to clarify what he means by devas (Hindu gods and goddesses). A claim that he was lying because he attempted to use less confusing/procative terms when dealing with Westerners (e.g. devas are fundamental impulses/vibrations of pure consciousness) is unwarranted. The term deva literally translates as shining one from Sansrkit, and in the context of dhyan and the Yoga Sutras, where it says that any attractive object of attention can be used as an ishtadeva [cherished shining one], to say that TM mantras are sounds chosen for their attractive effect during meditation captures the intent of the Yoga Sutras better in a modern context than saying that mantras fetch us the grace of personal gods. Otherwise, you're insisting that using the word booyah or some random visual image as your ishtadeva during meditation is to make booyah or the random visual image a sacred deity because that is literally what the Yoga Sutra says if you insist that deva is a deity in all contexts. L
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 11:33 PM, lengli...@cox.net wrote: Who says I maintain attention on the mantra? When you sit down to meditate, you consciously begin the mantra; when you realize that you're not thinking the mantra, you begin it again. So, there must be /*some*/ maintenance going on, otherwise you would not remember to think the mantra again. Remembering to maintain attention attention on a thought is NOT effortlessly thinking a thought. Remembering to think the mantra is just like any other thought you remember. So, remembering to think the mantra is not 100% effortless. It takes some effort, no matter how slight, to think a specific thought. But, I agree that the TM teaching modality of effortlessness is better than */concentrating/* on a mantra or breathing. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/2/2014 2:01 PM, Michael Jackson wrote: I disagree that TM is mindfullness, and I disagree because of Marshy's intent and belief. Mindfulness is the practice of awareness, a factor on the path to enlightenment. Mindfulness practice is inherited from the */Buddhist tradition/*. Buddhism makes use of mantras, so by your logic mindfullness is not meditation? Go figure. This sounds almost exactly like TM: When practicing mindfulness, for instance by watching the breath, one must remember to maintain attention on the chosen object of awareness, faithfully returning back to refocus on that object whenever the mind wanders away from it. - B. Allen Wallace http://www.mindandlife.org/dialogues/past-conferences/ml18/ --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/3/2014 5:10 AM, Michael Jackson wrote: he was a liar and a con artist whether you like it or not Well, it's settled then. */Rick - don't even bother to shut it down./* The discussion is over and finished. The Kung Fu fighter has spoken. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
In speaking of long term practice, I am not speaking of the 'CC' experience which really is rather early in the spiritual experience arc. The 'CC' experience is attested to by M and I have also heard it referred to in other language from Zen sources, sometimes even called pure consciousness in these sources, which include two verbal sources. At this point the contrast in experience between the inner mind and sensory experience is greatest. It's also easy to describe because of this contrast. I am basically talking about how it is all experienced, for it may be that diverse strategies while producing somewhat different EEG result in rather similar qualities of experience. For example, people who have narrowly escaped death have reported a period of intense silence afterward. That contrast of 'CC' goes away as the experience unified until there is essentially no difference between inner and outer, no division between a 'you' and the world. The 'you' for all practical purposes vanishes. I find it interesting that the latter 95% of the time of my practice up to this point was just TM, and yet it led to the classic Buddhist experience of 'no-self'. The first couple of years involved other things. Just how is pure consciousness a 'self'? It has no qualities except the experience of existence, how can that be a self? I think the language is misleading. 'Self' is a great hook for those with fearful egos though, because that idea of what one is is the most tenacious thing the mind has to offer, it will attempt just about anything to avoid its banishment. If you want Brahman, you have to mark your ego for death, so it is a kind of suicide in a manner of speaking. It is a manner of speaking because this sense of self is really just a bundle of conditioning and memories that has the name 'me' plastered all over it. So in a way we could say spiritual progress depends on cremating the individual self, and even the CC self, burning them alive until as little as possible remains. At a certain point this will probably start to happen automatically, and if the desire to return to more comfortable days arises, you probably won't be able to claw your way back. This is not likely to happen until the CC experience is essentially gone. For some this is reportedly very difficult; others may have a really easy time of it [not the case for me]. It does not seem to be a variable based on technique, it just depends on how much and in what way your mind is conditioned, how comfortable or uncomfortable it will be. This really happens in the doorway into unity. As for effects on health etc., if you are looking for enlightenment, that is not really a big concern; if one is not looking for the truth of existence, then there is not much point in pursuing enlightenment. I like that Scientific American article. It appears that all the research done so far is really the first 50-year volley across the bow of the scientific community, and now that its inadequacies are evident, better research for the sake of research rather than for marketing a particular POV about life may come about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation --- ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Long term TM practice results in radically different EEG patterns than long-term mindfulness or focussed attention or meta practice. Some spiritual schools celebrate the functional disconnect that occurs between the regions of the brain thought to be responsible for sense-of-self and the rest of the brain. TM practice, in the beginning, tends to enhance the functioning of the self-centers of teh brain as shown by alpha1 (slow range of alpha) EEG coherence in the front of the brain, and this coherence soon starts to spread to the rest of teh brain. TM celebrates this increased functional connectivty as experience of pure consciousness, aka Self. Trying to reconcile the completely different EEG patterns on the level of words doesn't work, now that we can see just how different the results of the varous schools of meditation are in certain respects. Now, how this translates into real world applications is its own topic of research. TM has a small, but consistent effect on blood pressure, for example. The most recent AHRQ review of the effects of meditation on anxiety says that mindfulness has a small effect on anxiety but TM doesn't. But see my response to this Scientific American blog post: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-meditation-overrated/ L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : If my understanding about this is correct: With mantra yoga, what is minded is the mantra. With TM, the 'mindfulness' of the mantra as a focus is minimised by the technique which reduces greatly the
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
Who says I always end up thinking the mantra a second time? Sometimes I realize that 20 minutes have gone by lost in thought, and that's the end of my meditation. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/2/2014 11:33 PM, LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... wrote: Who says I maintain attention on the mantra? When you sit down to meditate, you consciously begin the mantra; when you realize that you're not thinking the mantra, you begin it again. So, there must be some maintenance going on, otherwise you would not remember to think the mantra again. Remembering to maintain attention attention on a thought is NOT effortlessly thinking a thought. Remembering to think the mantra is just like any other thought you remember. So, remembering to think the mantra is not 100% effortless. It takes some effort, no matter how slight, to think a specific thought. But, I agree that the TM teaching modality of effortlessness is better than concentrating on a mantra or breathing. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... mailto:punditster@... wrote : On 5/2/2014 2:01 PM, Michael Jackson wrote: I disagree that TM is mindfullness, and I disagree because of Marshy's intent and belief. Mindfulness is the practice of awareness, a factor on the path to enlightenment. Mindfulness practice is inherited from the Buddhist tradition. Buddhism makes use of mantras, so by your logic mindfullness is not meditation? Go figure. This sounds almost exactly like TM: When practicing mindfulness, for instance by watching the breath, one must remember to maintain attention on the chosen object of awareness, faithfully returning back to refocus on that object whenever the mind wanders away from it. - B. Allen Wallace http://www.mindandlife.org/dialogues/past-conferences/ml18/ http://www.mindandlife.org/dialogues/past-conferences/ml18/ This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/3/2014 4:45 PM, lengli...@cox.net wrote: Who says I always end up thinking the mantra a second time? Sometimes I realize that 20 minutes have gone by lost in thought, and that's the end of my meditation. Not being a teacher of TM but just a common /practitioner/, I think you have to remember to begin the mantra at least once during a meditation. Otherwise you'd just be doing a gross, belly flop and making a splash all over the place. This happened to me one time - I sat down to meditate and forgot to start my mantra - then about 20 minutes later I woke up and discovered that I had been merely taking a nap. It wasn't unpleasant and I can't remember what I was doing all that time, but it got me to thinking. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
Notice that phrase a second time. Implicit in that is thinking the mantra at least once. And you don't have to remember to think the mantra at least once. Thinking the mantra can be spontaneous, even from the very start. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/3/2014 4:45 PM, LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... wrote: Who says I always end up thinking the mantra a second time? Sometimes I realize that 20 minutes have gone by lost in thought, and that's the end of my meditation. Not being a teacher of TM but just a common practitioner, I think you have to remember to begin the mantra at least once during a meditation. Otherwise you'd just be doing a gross, belly flop and making a splash all over the place. This happened to me one time - I sat down to meditate and forgot to start my mantra - then about 20 minutes later I woke up and discovered that I had been merely taking a nap. It wasn't unpleasant and I can't remember what I was doing all that time, but it got me to thinking. Go figure. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/3/2014 6:25 PM, lengli...@cox.net wrote: Notice that phrase a second time. Implicit in that is thinking the mantra at least once. And you don't have to remember to think the mantra at least once. Thinking the mantra can be spontaneous, even from the very start. You have to remember to sit down and meditate. For me this is quite a challenge in the first place, since I'm so busy these days posting and dialoging on FFL 24 x 7 about TM and the mechanics of consciousness, levitation and stuff. But, one time when I was waiting in the car for Rita, I thought of my mantra and so I closed my eyes for a minute of two and it was very restful. It probably was just like what happened to the Buddha sitting under a tree that night, except I was on the corner of rush-hour traffic on a sunny afternoon in downtown Dallas. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
I agree that remembering to sit down to meditate can be a challenge, but I have spontaneously slipped into TM many times over the years simply by closing my eyes while sitting. Fortunately, teh way our nervous system is set up, you don't continue in such a spontaneous meditation for long unless you are in a situation where there is no demand on your time in the first place. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/3/2014 6:25 PM, LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... wrote: Notice that phrase a second time. Implicit in that is thinking the mantra at least once. And you don't have to remember to think the mantra at least once. Thinking the mantra can be spontaneous, even from the very start. You have to remember to sit down and meditate. For me this is quite a challenge in the first place, since I'm so busy these days posting and dialoging on FFL 24 x 7 about TM and the mechanics of consciousness, levitation and stuff. But, one time when I was waiting in the car for Rita, I thought of my mantra and so I closed my eyes for a minute of two and it was very restful. It probably was just like what happened to the Buddha sitting under a tree that night, except I was on the corner of rush-hour traffic on a sunny afternoon in downtown Dallas. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
You know, I had never thought of it that way, but the Big M really DID shape
our beliefs not only about the world around us and about ourselves but about TM
itself which was a core aspect of his selling TM and its adjunct programs to
everyone. Thank you for the insight Curtis.
On Fri, 5/2/14, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR
afterall
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 3:39 AM
I believe this is what Sam Harris is advocating,
separating the practices from the beliefs. I do not believe
all meditations lead to the same mental states. TM has never
been taught this way through the organization so I guess we
don't know what innocent TM practice would be like.Even
after dropping the beliefs my TM practice was influenced by
what I had previously believed about it. Shaping our beliefs
about the practice was a huge priority for Maharishi.
I am hoping to enjoy
mindfulness sitting with less concept clutter. Of course I
can only be marginally successful with this goal, but I am
not presently reading a bunch of stuff about it yet. Someday
I'm sure I will, but I would like some more less
filtered experience first. This is pretty much the
reverse of how I approached TM.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
punditster@... wrote :
On
5/1/2014 9:43 PM,
curtisdeltablues@...
wrote:
It's all
the same Unified Field once you get going.
C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that
came
from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify
himself
as a Buddhist.
The concepts and practices of Buddhism,
according to Stephen
Batchelor, are not something to believe in but
something to
do. It is a practice that we can all engage in,
regardless of our background or beliefs, as we live every
day on the
path to spiritual enlightenment.
Basic TM is Buddhist yoga - it may be that MMY should have
left it
at that and retired back in 1955 instead of muddying the
waters, so
to speak. Basic TM should be able to stand on its own.
That's what I
think.
Recommended:
'Buddhism Without Beliefs: A Contemporary Guide to
Awakening'
by Stephen Batchelor
Riverhead Trade, 1998
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection
is active.
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091 --
#yiv2705404091ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091ygrp-mkp #yiv2705404091hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091ygrp-mkp #yiv2705404091ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091ygrp-mkp .yiv2705404091ad {
padding:0 0;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091ygrp-mkp .yiv2705404091ad p {
margin:0;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091ygrp-mkp .yiv2705404091ad a {
color:#ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2705404091ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2705404091ygrp-lc #yiv2705404091hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091ygrp-sponsor
#yiv2705404091ygrp-lc .yiv2705404091ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091activity span {
font-weight:700;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}
#yiv2705404091 #yiv2705404091activity span
.yiv2705404091underline {
text-decoration:underline;}
#yiv2705404091 .yiv2705404091attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}
#yiv2705404091 .yiv2705404091attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv2705404091 .yiv2705404091attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}
#yiv2705404091 .yiv2705404091attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}
#yiv2705404091 .yiv2705404091attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv2705404091 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}
#yiv2705404091 .yiv2705404091bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}
#yiv2705404091 .yiv2705404091bold a {
text-decoration:none;}
#yiv2705404091 dd.yiv2705404091last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}
#yiv2705404091
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
But Curtis, you already have some big filters: one, and imo the most significant one, that it's preferable to come to a new experience as filter free as possible. Shouldn't we challenge this belief too? And two, don't you already have some significant filters about mindfulness simply from reading about it here and elsewhere? Not to mention, from all your experiences and beliefs around TM? And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:39 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: I believe this is what Sam Harris is advocating, separating the practices from the beliefs. I do not believe all meditations lead to the same mental states. TM has never been taught this way through the organization so I guess we don't know what innocent TM practice would be like.Even after dropping the beliefs my TM practice was influenced by what I had previously believed about it. Shaping our beliefs about the practice was a huge priority for Maharishi. I am hoping to enjoy mindfulness sitting with less concept clutter. Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal, but I am not presently reading a bunch of stuff about it yet. Someday I'm sure I will, but I would like some more less filtered experience first. This is pretty much the reverse of how I approached TM. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 9:43 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. The concepts and practices of Buddhism, according to Stephen Batchelor, are not something to believe in but something to do. It is a practice that we can all engage in, regardless of our background or beliefs, as we live every day on the path to spiritual enlightenment. Basic TM is Buddhist yoga - it may be that MMY should have left it at that and retired back in 1955 instead of muddying the waters, so to speak. Basic TM should be able to stand on its own. That's what I think. Recommended: 'Buddhism Without Beliefs: A Contemporary Guide to Awakening' by Stephen Batchelor Riverhead Trade, 1998 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : You know, I had never thought of it that way, but the Big M really DID shape our beliefs not only about the world around us and about ourselves but about TM itself which was a core aspect of his selling TM and its adjunct programs to everyone. Thank you for the insight Curtis. Anyone selling anything that we buy has done this MJ. You yourself have said time over time what a shyster, huckster and shill MMY was.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 6:24 AM, Share Long wrote: And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! We cannot possibly separate our beliefs completely, but what we can do is challenge anyone who tries to control our mind and body through coercion with false dichotomies. Everyone meditates and everyone is transcending, even without a technique. So, after fifteen years of dialog disparaging meditators on this and one other discussion group, it now comes out that Curtis and Barry are the True Believers - they meditate. So, what exactly was their argument against meditating? It's was all about Judy. /*MMY has NOTHING to do with their transcending.*/ It's that simple. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : But Curtis, you already have some big filters: C: Right that is why I said this: Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal S:one, and imo the most significant one, that it's preferable to come to a new experience as filter free as possible. C: I am not assuming that. After this experiment I may conclude that this was the worst way to approach learning mindfulness meditation and use myself as a cautionary tale of how NOT to learn it. But I choose to approach it this way while I can. S: Shouldn't we challenge this belief too? C: It depends on what exactly you are challenging. That I am approaching this process this way is just a fact concerning my preference for my personal practice. I am not making any broad claims that everyone should always do it the way I am approaching this. But this is an opportunity to shift my approach to learning something and since I only have this short window before I inevitably book up on the subject, I am taking it. S: And two, don't you already have some significant filters about mindfulness simply from reading about it here and elsewhere? Not to mention, from all your experiences and beliefs around TM? C: Right. I am not claiming otherwise. TM is my dominant perspective on meditation practice and colors everything I am doing. I am open to Maharishi's perspective that in fact I am so habituated from his practice that I am not actually practicing a mindfulness practice at all. But my experience leads me to believe that I am having a different subjective experience so I am working with what I have. And I am not belief adverse on principle. I plan to build all sorts of beliefs using everything I can to support them for what I consider good reasons if I decide to take this on as an intellectual as well as an experiential process. S:And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! C: I don't believe anyone is claiming this Share. But there is a huge difference in approach from how I learned TM and studied it and how I am approaching this for now. For now I am interested in the procedural aspects of the practice. Obviously I have all sorts of acquired beliefs conscious and unconscious that shape my practice or that even compelled me to take up the practice at all. It is just a matter of emphasis and degree. Compared to other things I am interested in, I have read very little and that suits me for now. I was never very interested in other forms of meditation so I know very little about this practice. That will change so I am choosing to roll this way for now. I am more interested in making subjective distinctions concerning this practice and TM rather than more theoretical ones. Knowing. of course that all my presuppositions will shape everything I conclude. That is a human limitation as well as an opportunity.There is a big difference between believing that I am experiencing my attention on the present moment and believing that I have reached the first bardo of whatever. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:39 PM, curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I believe this is what Sam Harris is advocating, separating the practices from the beliefs. I do not believe all meditations lead to the same mental states. TM has never been taught this way through the organization so I guess we don't know what innocent TM practice would be like.Even after dropping the beliefs my TM practice was influenced by what I had previously believed about it. Shaping our beliefs about the practice was a huge priority for Maharishi. I am hoping to enjoy mindfulness sitting with less concept clutter. Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal, but I am not presently reading a bunch of stuff about it yet. Someday I'm sure I will, but I would like some more less filtered experience first. This is pretty much the reverse of how I approached TM. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 9:43 PM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote: It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. The concepts and practices of Buddhism, according to Stephen Batchelor, are not something to believe in but something to do. It is a practice that we can all engage in, regardless of our background or beliefs, as we live every day on the path to spiritual enlightenment. Basic TM is Buddhist yoga - it may be that MMY should have left it at that and retired back in 1955 instead of muddying the waters, so to speak. Basic TM should be able to stand on its own. That's what I think. Recommended: 'Buddhism Without Beliefs: A
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
Curtis, first of all, and maybe I've said it before, but it is simply a pleasure just to read your writing. For one thing, I can follow it pretty easily! I think my favorite line was when you said, ...all my presuppositions will shape everything I conclude. That is a human limitation as well as an opportunity. What it evoked in me was the experience of living on the edge of discovery, so thank you... On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:46 AM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : But Curtis, you already have some big filters: C: Right that is why I said this: Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal S:one, and imo the most significant one, that it's preferable to come to a new experience as filter free as possible. C: I am not assuming that. After this experiment I may conclude that this was the worst way to approach learning mindfulness meditation and use myself as a cautionary tale of how NOT to learn it. But I choose to approach it this way while I can. S: Shouldn't we challenge this belief too? C: It depends on what exactly you are challenging. That I am approaching this process this way is just a fact concerning my preference for my personal practice. I am not making any broad claims that everyone should always do it the way I am approaching this. But this is an opportunity to shift my approach to learning something and since I only have this short window before I inevitably book up on the subject, I am taking it. S: And two, don't you already have some significant filters about mindfulness simply from reading about it here and elsewhere? Not to mention, from all your experiences and beliefs around TM? C: Right. I am not claiming otherwise. TM is my dominant perspective on meditation practice and colors everything I am doing. I am open to Maharishi's perspective that in fact I am so habituated from his practice that I am not actually practicing a mindfulness practice at all. But my experience leads me to believe that I am having a different subjective experience so I am working with what I have. And I am not belief adverse on principle. I plan to build all sorts of beliefs using everything I can to support them for what I consider good reasons if I decide to take this on as an intellectual as well as an experiential process. S:And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! C: I don't believe anyone is claiming this Share. But there is a huge difference in approach from how I learned TM and studied it and how I am approaching this for now. For now I am interested in the procedural aspects of the practice. Obviously I have all sorts of acquired beliefs conscious and unconscious that shape my practice or that even compelled me to take up the practice at all. It is just a matter of emphasis and degree. Compared to other things I am interested in, I have read very little and that suits me for now. I was never very interested in other forms of meditation so I know very little about this practice. That will change so I am choosing to roll this way for now. I am more interested in making subjective distinctions concerning this practice and TM rather than more theoretical ones. Knowing. of course that all my presuppositions will shape everything I conclude. That is a human limitation as well as an opportunity.There is a big difference between believing that I am experiencing my attention on the present moment and believing that I have reached the first bardo of whatever. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:39 PM, curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I believe this is what Sam Harris is advocating, separating the practices from the beliefs. I do not believe all meditations lead to the same mental states. TM has never been taught this way through the organization so I guess we don't know what innocent TM practice would be like.Even after dropping the beliefs my TM practice was influenced by what I had previously believed about it. Shaping our beliefs about the practice was a huge priority for Maharishi. I am hoping to enjoy mindfulness sitting with less concept clutter. Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal, but I am not presently reading a bunch of stuff about it yet. Someday I'm sure I will, but I would like some more less filtered experience first. This is pretty much the reverse of how I approached TM. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 9:43 PM, curtisdeltablues@... wrote: It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. The concepts and practices of Buddhism, according to Stephen
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Curtis, first of all, and maybe I've said it before, but it is simply a pleasure just to read your writing. For one thing, I can follow it pretty easily! C: Thanks Share, I am enjoying writing here again. Being easy to follow is my highest goal in expression, so double thanks for that. S: I think my favorite line was when you said, ...all my presuppositions will shape everything I conclude. That is a human limitation as well as an opportunity. What it evoked in me was the experience of living on the edge of discovery, so thank you... C: Lifelong learning for everyone! On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:46 AM, curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... wrote: --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : But Curtis, you already have some big filters: C: Right that is why I said this: Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal S:one, and imo the most significant one, that it's preferable to come to a new experience as filter free as possible. C: I am not assuming that. After this experiment I may conclude that this was the worst way to approach learning mindfulness meditation and use myself as a cautionary tale of how NOT to learn it. But I choose to approach it this way while I can. S: Shouldn't we challenge this belief too? C: It depends on what exactly you are challenging. That I am approaching this process this way is just a fact concerning my preference for my personal practice. I am not making any broad claims that everyone should always do it the way I am approaching this. But this is an opportunity to shift my approach to learning something and since I only have this short window before I inevitably book up on the subject, I am taking it. S: And two, don't you already have some significant filters about mindfulness simply from reading about it here and elsewhere? Not to mention, from all your experiences and beliefs around TM? C: Right. I am not claiming otherwise. TM is my dominant perspective on meditation practice and colors everything I am doing. I am open to Maharishi's perspective that in fact I am so habituated from his practice that I am not actually practicing a mindfulness practice at all. But my experience leads me to believe that I am having a different subjective experience so I am working with what I have. And I am not belief adverse on principle. I plan to build all sorts of beliefs using everything I can to support them for what I consider good reasons if I decide to take this on as an intellectual as well as an experiential process. S:And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! C: I don't believe anyone is claiming this Share. But there is a huge difference in approach from how I learned TM and studied it and how I am approaching this for now. For now I am interested in the procedural aspects of the practice. Obviously I have all sorts of acquired beliefs conscious and unconscious that shape my practice or that even compelled me to take up the practice at all. It is just a matter of emphasis and degree. Compared to other things I am interested in, I have read very little and that suits me for now. I was never very interested in other forms of meditation so I know very little about this practice. That will change so I am choosing to roll this way for now. I am more interested in making subjective distinctions concerning this practice and TM rather than more theoretical ones. Knowing. of course that all my presuppositions will shape everything I conclude. That is a human limitation as well as an opportunity.There is a big difference between believing that I am experiencing my attention on the present moment and believing that I have reached the first bardo of whatever. On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:39 PM, curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I believe this is what Sam Harris is advocating, separating the practices from the beliefs. I do not believe all meditations lead to the same mental states. TM has never been taught this way through the organization so I guess we don't know what innocent TM practice would be like.Even after dropping the beliefs my TM practice was influenced by what I had previously believed about it. Shaping our beliefs about the practice was a huge priority for Maharishi. I am hoping to enjoy mindfulness sitting with less concept clutter. Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal, but I am not presently reading a bunch of stuff about it yet. Someday I'm sure I will, but I would like some more less filtered experience first. This is pretty much the reverse of how I approached TM. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 9:43 PM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote:
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/2/2014 6:24 AM, Share Long wrote: And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! We cannot possibly separate our beliefs completely, but what we can do is challenge anyone who tries to control our mind and body through coercion with false dichotomies. Everyone meditates and everyone is transcending, even without a technique. So, after fifteen years of dialog disparaging meditators on this and one other discussion group, it now comes out that Curtis and Barry are the True Believers - they meditate. So, what exactly was their argument against meditating? C: Even in my most enthusiastic presentations on cults when I first left TM I allowed that the practice itself my be beneficial for certain people. I do not believe that TM or any one meditation practice is good for ALL people. My disagreements with Maharishi revolve around his conclusions about what the experiences we have in meditation mean. As far as the practice itself I don't accept the traditional belief structure as authoritative. I am advocating admitting that we don't know all about TM or other forms of meditation but that the field holds some interest for me after having taken an 18 year break from being interested in any meditation practice at all. R: It's was all about Judy. C: Speak for yourself! R: MMY has NOTHING to do with their transcending. It's that simple. C: Not that simple since his framework for understanding my subjective meditation experiences was one that I embraced and then rejected. It continues to shape my perspective today and always will. But your assumptiveness in using the term transcending reveals a lot about your own beliefs around the practice. I would not use that term to describe how I think of my experiences in TM or with mindfulness meditation. the word is too loaded with assumptions to be useful in describing my own experience with them now. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/2/2014 6:24 AM, Share Long wrote: R: MMY has NOTHING to do with their transcending. It's that simple. C: Not that simple since his framework for understanding my subjective meditation experiences was one that I embraced and then rejected. It continues to shape my perspective today and always will. But your assumptiveness in using the term transcending reveals a lot about your own beliefs around the practice. I would not use that term to describe how I think of my experiences in TM or with mindfulness meditation. the word is too loaded with assumptions to be useful in describing my own experience with them now. Richard's claim is nonsensical, since we all pretty much know that he'd never even *heard* the term transcending until he heard if from Maharishi. Now he can't describe meditation without using it.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 8:52 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: What happened here?? Somebody got confused and thought there was such a thing as Buddhism? Everyone on the planet knows that being a Buddhists means the same thing as being non-violent and that Buddhists don't believe in the saving grace of the war-gods. Go figure. Harris: Given the degree to which religion still inspires human conflict, and impedes genuine inquiry, I believe that merely being a self-described “Buddhist” is to be complicit in the world’s violence and ignorance to an unacceptable degree. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
So Richard responds to Curtis treating him as if he were an actual human being by retreating into full retard mode again. Interesting. Tropic Thunder (2008) You never go full Retard! Tropic Thunder (2008) You never go full Retard! View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo From: Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall On 5/2/2014 8:52 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: What happened here?? Somebody got confused and thought there was such a thing as Buddhism? Everyone on the planet knows that being a Buddhists means the same thing as being non-violent and that Buddhists don't believe in the saving grace of the war-gods. Go figure. Harris: Given the degree to which religion still inspires human conflict, and impedes genuine inquiry, I believe that merely being a self-described “Buddhist” is to be complicit in the world’s violence and ignorance to an unacceptable degree. - See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/#sthash.Hbqbm55C.dpuf This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 9:45 AM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: I am open to Maharishi's perspective that in fact I am so habituated from his practice that I am not actually practicing a mindfulness practice at all. But my experience leads me to believe that I am having a different subjective experience so I am working with what I have. This becomes very simple when you realize that */TM IS mindfullness. /*Anything can be an object of meditation - a thought, a sound, a mantra or an image or just being aware of breathing in and out. The idea in both is to transcend thinking and to get beyond discursive reasoning. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/2/2014 9:45 AM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I am open to Maharishi's perspective that in fact I am so habituated from his practice that I am not actually practicing a mindfulness practice at all. But my experience leads me to believe that I am having a different subjective experience so I am working with what I have. This becomes very simple when you realize that TM IS mindfullness. Anything can be an object of meditation - a thought, a sound, a mantra or an image or just being aware of breathing in and out. The idea in both is to transcend thinking and to get beyond discursive reasoning. C: I think we have been around this May pole before Richard. I am inclined to believe that there are valid distinctions both experientially as well as physiologically between different types of meditation. It isn't that your comparison isn't valid, it may be on the level you are focusing on. But it misses distinctions that do matter. We are focusing on different aspects of the same thing. Personally, internally there are some differences that make a difference in how I feel in different kinds of meditation and in activity afterwards. I would not say that I ever transcend thinking, I would say that my relationship to my own thinking shifts. So I don't hold transcending thinking as a goal for either my TM or mindfulness. Getting beyond discursive reasoning seems like a result of most of the the things I do with music or exercise so I guess meditation does that too. But it is not a rare commodity in my life so I wouldn't meditate just for that result. But if your point is that there are a lot of ways to shift attention into a different style of functioning I am with you. It seems like there are and I am curious about how they differ as well as what is the same. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
I disagree that TM is mindfullness, and I disagree because of Marshy's intent
and belief. I am of the opinion that he did indeed subscribe to the traditional
and possibly superstitious belief that the mantras he was handing out were the
names of or sounds associated with various gods and goddesses of the Hindu
religious belief system, AND that the PRACTICE of TM using those mantras was
DESIGNED to draw the favor and energy of those gods to the mind/body of the
meditator. That was his belief, and he had no problems lying to anyone about
the practice to get converts, make money and be held up as a god man himself.
This is the effect of the mantras from the master who gave them out. It was
certainly Marshy's belief that this was the effect and I think it was his
intention that this would be the effect in each meditator. He was by all
accounts a devout Hindu and many have said that he deemed Hinduism to be
superior to all other religions. I think he was laughing up his dhoti sleeve at
all the Jews, Christians, Muslims and everyone else for doing a meditation that
was placating/flattering the Hindu gods/goddesses. Thus it could not be a
practice of mindfulness.
It can of course be argued that unless the meditator knew that's what the
mantras are for and willing participated in them with that understanding and
intent then it doesn't count as a Hindu devotional practice, but I think that's
like eating steak and believing it broccoli.
On Fri, 5/2/14, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR
afterall
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 2, 2014, 6:41 PM
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
punditster@... wrote :
On
5/2/2014 9:45 AM,
curtisdeltablues@...
wrote:
I
am open to Maharishi's perspective that in fact I am so
habituated
from his practice that I am not actually practicing a
mindfulness
practice at all. But my experience leads me to believe that
I am
having a different subjective experience so I am working
with what
I have.
This becomes very simple when you realize that TM IS
mindfullness. Anything can be an object of
meditation
- a thought, a sound, a mantra or an image or just being
aware of
breathing in and out. The idea in both is to transcend
thinking and
to get beyond discursive reasoning.
C: I think we have been around
this May pole before Richard. I am inclined to believe that
there are valid distinctions both experientially as well as
physiologically between different types of meditation. It
isn't that your comparison isn't valid, it may be on
the level you are focusing on. But it misses distinctions
that do matter. We are focusing on different aspects of the
same thing.
Personally,
internally there are some differences that make a difference
in how I feel in different kinds of meditation and in
activity afterwards. I would not say that I ever transcend
thinking, I would say that my relationship to my own
thinking shifts. So I don't hold transcending thinking
as a goal for either my TM or mindfulness.
Getting beyond discursive
reasoning seems like a result of most of the the things I do
with music or exercise so I guess meditation does that too.
But it is not a rare commodity in my life so I wouldn't
meditate just for that result.
But if your point is that there are a lot of
ways to shift attention into a different style of
functioning I am with you. It seems like there are and I am
curious about how they differ as well as what is the same.
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection
is active.
#yiv3495442936 #yiv3495442936 --
#yiv3495442936ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}
#yiv3495442936 #yiv3495442936ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
#yiv3495442936 #yiv3495442936ygrp-mkp #yiv3495442936hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}
#yiv3495442936 #yiv3495442936ygrp-mkp #yiv3495442936ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}
#yiv3495442936 #yiv3495442936ygrp-mkp .yiv3495442936ad {
padding:0 0;}
#yiv3495442936 #yiv3495442936ygrp-mkp .yiv3495442936ad p {
margin:0;}
#yiv3495442936 #yiv3495442936ygrp-mkp .yiv3495442936ad a {
color:#ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv3495442936 #yiv3495442936ygrp-sponsor
#yiv3495442936ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}
#yiv3495442936 #yiv3495442936ygrp-sponsor
#yiv3495442936ygrp-lc #yiv3495442936hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
#yiv3495442936 #yiv3495442936ygrp-sponsor
#yiv3495442936ygrp-lc .yiv3495442936ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
#yiv3495442936 #yiv3495442936actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
With a purely mental practice, it is impossible to separate the practice, from teh way it was taught, so claiming that something else is TM merely because it can be described the same way, is a very big intellectual failure. Samatha practices can be described the same way as TM, but the way they are taught, they are certainly in the mainstream of focused attention practices, and the EEG signature reflects this. TM, on the other hand, is described as mind-wandering, taught in terms of mind-wandering, and the theoretical explanation for how it works is also in terms of mind-wandering. Not surprisingly, the EEG signature of TM is very similar to the EEG signature of mind-wandering, albeit more so. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : But Curtis, you already have some big filters: one, and imo the most significant one, that it's preferable to come to a new experience as filter free as possible. Shouldn't we challenge this belief too? And two, don't you already have some significant filters about mindfulness simply from reading about it here and elsewhere? Not to mention, from all your experiences and beliefs around TM? And Richard, how can we possibly separate belief and practice completely? I don't think we can simply because we don't live our lives with our heads cut off from our bodies! On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:39 PM, curtisdeltablues@... curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I believe this is what Sam Harris is advocating, separating the practices from the beliefs. I do not believe all meditations lead to the same mental states. TM has never been taught this way through the organization so I guess we don't know what innocent TM practice would be like.Even after dropping the beliefs my TM practice was influenced by what I had previously believed about it. Shaping our beliefs about the practice was a huge priority for Maharishi. I am hoping to enjoy mindfulness sitting with less concept clutter. Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal, but I am not presently reading a bunch of stuff about it yet. Someday I'm sure I will, but I would like some more less filtered experience first. This is pretty much the reverse of how I approached TM. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 9:43 PM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote: It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. The concepts and practices of Buddhism, according to Stephen Batchelor, are not something to believe in but something to do. It is a practice that we can all engage in, regardless of our background or beliefs, as we live every day on the path to spiritual enlightenment. Basic TM is Buddhist yoga - it may be that MMY should have left it at that and retired back in 1955 instead of muddying the waters, so to speak. Basic TM should be able to stand on its own. That's what I think. Recommended: 'Buddhism Without Beliefs: A Contemporary Guide to Awakening' by Stephen Batchelor Riverhead Trade, 1998 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
TM isn't a mindfulness practice in any typical sense of the word used by meditation practitioners, and by anyone else, for that matter. ... other than people who just tack it on and say TM is mindfuless without thinking things through (I've done this myself, so I'm pointing more fingers inward than outward, here). L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/2/2014 9:45 AM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I am open to Maharishi's perspective that in fact I am so habituated from his practice that I am not actually practicing a mindfulness practice at all. But my experience leads me to believe that I am having a different subjective experience so I am working with what I have. This becomes very simple when you realize that TM IS mindfullness. Anything can be an object of meditation - a thought, a sound, a mantra or an image or just being aware of breathing in and out. The idea in both is to transcend thinking and to get beyond discursive reasoning. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 1:41 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: Getting beyond discursive reasoning seems like a result of most of the the things I do with music or exercise so I guess meditation does that too. But it is not a rare commodity in my life so I wouldn't meditate just for that result. Music is a meditation - in fact, everything you do is a meditation, if by meditation you mean thinking things over. What is it exactly, that you do when you meditate, other than think? Let's define meditation - I'll go first: 1. Meditation is a practice in which an individual trains the mind or induces a mode of consciousness, either to realize some benefit or as an end in itself. a. The Buddha sits in meditation. b. He meditated to develop well-being. c. She closed her eyes to meditate. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
Maharishi, in later life, tried to clarify what he means by devas (Hindu gods and goddesses). A claim that he was lying because he attempted to use less confusing/procative terms when dealing with Westerners (e.g. devas are fundamental impulses/vibrations of pure consciousness) is unwarranted. The term deva literally translates as shining one from Sansrkit, and in the context of dhyan and the Yoga Sutras, where it says that any attractive object of attention can be used as an ishtadeva [cherished shining one], to say that TM mantras are sounds chosen for their attractive effect during meditation captures the intent of the Yoga Sutras better in a modern context than saying that mantras fetch us the grace of personal gods. Otherwise, you're insisting that using the word booyah or some random visual image as your ishtadeva during meditation is to make booyah or the random visual image a sacred deity because that is literally what the Yoga Sutra says if you insist that deva is a deity in all contexts. L
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 2:01 PM, Michael Jackson wrote: I disagree that TM is mindfullness, and I disagree because of Marshy's intent and belief. Mindfulness is the practice of awareness, a factor on the path to enlightenment. Mindfulness practice is inherited from the */Buddhist tradition/*. Buddhism makes use of mantras, so by your logic mindfullness is not meditation? Go figure. This sounds almost exactly like TM: When practicing mindfulness, for instance by watching the breath, one must remember to maintain attention on the chosen object of awareness, faithfully returning back to refocus on that object whenever the mind wanders away from it. - B. Allen Wallace http://www.mindandlife.org/dialogues/past-conferences/ml18/ --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 6:18 PM, lengli...@cox.net wrote: Samatha practices can be described the same way as TM, but the way they are taught, they are certainly in the mainstream of focused attention practices, and the EEG signature reflects this. According to B. Allan Wallace, mindfullness is mediation - in which sustained voluntary attention (samadhi) is closely related to memory, because in order to deliberately sustain one’s attention upon a chosen object, one must continue to remember to do so from moment to moment, faithfully returning back to refocus on that object whenever the mind wanders away from it. Research at NIH's National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) released the findings of a study where in magnetic resonance images of the brains of 16 participants 2 weeks before and after mindfulness meditation practitioners, has shown that meditation is beneficial in lowering blood pressure, decreasing anxiety, as well as improving numerous other physical and mental health conditions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_for_Complementary_and_Alternative_Medicine --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
If my understanding about this is correct: With mantra yoga, what is minded is the mantra. With TM, the 'mindfulness' of the mantra as a focus is minimised by the technique which reduces greatly the tendency to concentrate or effort. The idea is contact with something or somewhere you are not, that is with something transcendent to what you currently think you are. With mindfulness, what is minded is the current state of experience, but not all mindfulness methods are focused, with some, if you just happen notice these things going on around you, you don't mind, and focus is minimised. Coming back to the breath much in the same way one handles the mantra in TM serves a similar function in these minimalist concentrative mindfulness methods. Mindfulness assumes that the current state of experience is the reality, that it is immanent and pervasive and not transcendent. In other words, the mantra versions of meditation assume you are ignorant of this, while the mindfulness versions of meditation assume you are already the reality of life and nothing need be done. The POV differences in these approaches can have a significant effect on how one thinks about and approaches 'enlightenment'. That so many attempt and fail at all these approaches indicates that no particular method or philosophy is a sterling example of a single superior approach to resolving the issue. My own experience also indicates that as a practice matures, experiences during meditation undergo long term shifts, so that we cannot assume that it is always going to continue to generally work the way it did in the beginning, when usually we are a bit more invested and intrigued by something new in our lives. For me, TM is not, as Buck would say 'transcending meditation'. There is no longer any hint of the idea or experience of something I would call transcendence now. It was a useful concept when I started out, but now it seems like an ancient myth. TM and mindfulness now are pretty much the same to me. There is a convergence. Barry had posted some time ago a report about research that indicates that natural language metaphors covertly influence reasoning, that is, for example, the way we speak of our approach to this thing we call self-realisation', 'enlightenment', 'god-realisation', warps our mind in a certain direction and this can affect our approach, understanding, and practice to these spiritual disciplines that we currently practise, have abandoned, or bitch about. In my own case I found the continued insistence within TM of reaching subtle levels etc., eventually became a major barrier. I almost forgot why I originally started on the spiritual trek which came about from an experience of immanence, not transcendence. If you think there is a 'self' and a 'Self', rather than a 'Void' and 'no self', this can have a profound effect on experience and interpretation, as can a belief in God rather than thinking there is no such thing as God. My own practices, while initially they were intellectually informed by various Western and Eastern traditions, essentially became atheistic over time, but it still worked out fine. But that this worked out for me does not mean applying the same stance would work for someone with a different temperament, with a different initial set of conditioned behaviours and conditioned thinking patterns. So as to whatever practice you are engaged with, whatever tradition etc., if any, what you hear and how it is presented to you can have a significant effect on the practice as your experience evolves, and can be an aid or a barrier to further progress depending. Because traditions are basically cultural and behavioural ruts, I think it is a liability to put all one's eggs in one basket. A healthy degree of scepticism, curiosity - the will to find out - can become very important, in other words, do not expect enlightenment to be handed to you on a golden platter, without some initiative and independent intelligence on your part. So if the Master, the Priest, the Organisation, or whatever, puts the doggy bowl in front of you and you lap it up unthinkingly, you get what you deserve. This also has relevance to the idea of 'not deluding the ignorant'; because the 'ignorant' are deluded anyway, it really does not matter that much what might be said to them. So hiding a particular view about how 'the enlightened' experience life may not be necessary at all, since no matter what you say it will be misunderstood. There should always be a way to express the full range of human experience in a way the both intrigues and captivates people without the need to hide things from them. As a spiritual organisation ages, its priesthood tends to hold back the gems of useful knowledge about development of experience, kind of as a self preservation issue. If reality is all pervasive, the only thing that is, then how in fact could it be hid? ---In
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 10:13 PM, anartax...@yahoo.com wrote: TM and mindfulness now are pretty much the same to me. There is a convergence. Buck made a very astute observation, and it's easy to take it to another level - meditation is meditation. With TM mantra yoga, the mantra is remembered; in mindfullness there is an abiding attention. The difference may just be semantics. When that witness itself, which is ‘I am’, subsides, what remains? With the witness gone, all other things have disappeared too. By the same token, upon the arising of the ‘ I am’, the whole manifestation takes place; these two are not separate, they are one, ‘I am’ is the witness, the entire manifest world is because of this. - Nisargadatta Maharaj --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 8:20 PM, lengli...@cox.net wrote: A claim that he was lying because he attempted to use less confusing/procative terms when dealing with Westerners (e.g. devas are fundamental impulses/vibrations of pure consciousness) is unwarranted. This has already been pointed out to MJ in numerous threads by me and by The Corrector. Why MJ wants to follow in the footsteps of John Knapp and the other Trancenuts is beyond me. Apparently they are not interested in a dialog - all they want to do is bitch and complain about nothing and make stuff up. It's obvious they are prejudiced against Hindus and Indians. That's what I think. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/2/2014 8:06 PM, lengli...@cox.net wrote: TM isn't a mindfulness practice in any typical sense of the word used by meditation practitioners, and by anyone else, for that matter. Mindfullness is meditation by definition, so I'm not sure how anyone can take the meditation out of TM. Maybe we can define TM. It's a program that the mind begins to experience its own finer impressions, finer thoughts, and then finally transcends the finest thought and gets to the level of what they call self-referral pure consciousness, which is the ultimate reality of life, pure intelligence. - MMY, May 12, 2002 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
Who says I maintain attention on the mantra? Remembering to maintain attention attention on a thought is NOT effortlessly thinking a thought. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/2/2014 2:01 PM, Michael Jackson wrote: I disagree that TM is mindfullness, and I disagree because of Marshy's intent and belief. Mindfulness is the practice of awareness, a factor on the path to enlightenment. Mindfulness practice is inherited from the Buddhist tradition. Buddhism makes use of mantras, so by your logic mindfullness is not meditation? Go figure. This sounds almost exactly like TM: When practicing mindfulness, for instance by watching the breath, one must remember to maintain attention on the chosen object of awareness, faithfully returning back to refocus on that object whenever the mind wanders away from it. - B. Allen Wallace http://www.mindandlife.org/dialogues/past-conferences/ml18/ http://www.mindandlife.org/dialogues/past-conferences/ml18/ This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
Long term TM practice results in radically different EEG patterns than long-term mindfulness or focussed attention or meta practice. Some spiritual schools celebrate the functional disconnect that occurs between the regions of the brain thought to be responsible for sense-of-self and the rest of the brain. TM practice, in the beginning, tends to enhance the functioning of the self-centers of teh brain as shown by alpha1 (slow range of alpha) EEG coherence in the front of the brain, and this coherence soon starts to spread to the rest of teh brain. TM celebrates this increased functional connectivty as experience of pure consciousness, aka Self. Trying to reconcile the completely different EEG patterns on the level of words doesn't work, now that we can see just how different the results of the varous schools of meditation are in certain respects. Now, how this translates into real world applications is its own topic of research. TM has a small, but consistent effect on blood pressure, for example. The most recent AHRQ review of the effects of meditation on anxiety says that mindfulness has a small effect on anxiety but TM doesn't. But see my response to this Scientific American blog post: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-meditation-overrated/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-meditation-overrated/ L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : If my understanding about this is correct: With mantra yoga, what is minded is the mantra. With TM, the 'mindfulness' of the mantra as a focus is minimised by the technique which reduces greatly the tendency to concentrate or effort. The idea is contact with something or somewhere you are not, that is with something transcendent to what you currently think you are. With mindfulness, what is minded is the current state of experience, but not all mindfulness methods are focused, with some, if you just happen notice these things going on around you, you don't mind, and focus is minimised. Coming back to the breath much in the same way one handles the mantra in TM serves a similar function in these minimalist concentrative mindfulness methods. Mindfulness assumes that the current state of experience is the reality, that it is immanent and pervasive and not transcendent. In other words, the mantra versions of meditation assume you are ignorant of this, while the mindfulness versions of meditation assume you are already the reality of life and nothing need be done. The POV differences in these approaches can have a significant effect on how one thinks about and approaches 'enlightenment'. That so many attempt and fail at all these approaches indicates that no particular method or philosophy is a sterling example of a single superior approach to resolving the issue. My own experience also indicates that as a practice matures, experiences during meditation undergo long term shifts, so that we cannot assume that it is always going to continue to generally work the way it did in the beginning, when usually we are a bit more invested and intrigued by something new in our lives. For me, TM is not, as Buck would say 'transcending meditation'. There is no longer any hint of the idea or experience of something I would call transcendence now. It was a useful concept when I started out, but now it seems like an ancient myth. TM and mindfulness now are pretty much the same to me. There is a convergence. Barry had posted some time ago a report about research that indicates that natural language metaphors covertly influence reasoning, that is, for example, the way we speak of our approach to this thing we call self-realisation', 'enlightenment', 'god-realisation', warps our mind in a certain direction and this can affect our approach, understanding, and practice to these spiritual disciplines that we currently practise, have abandoned, or bitch about. In my own case I found the continued insistence within TM of reaching subtle levels etc., eventually became a major barrier. I almost forgot why I originally started on the spiritual trek which came about from an experience of immanence, not transcendence. If you think there is a 'self' and a 'Self', rather than a 'Void' and 'no self', this can have a profound effect on experience and interpretation, as can a belief in God rather than thinking there is no such thing as God. My own practices, while initially they were intellectually informed by various Western and Eastern traditions, essentially became atheistic over time, but it still worked out fine. But that this worked out for me does not mean applying the same stance would work for someone with a different temperament, with a different initial set of conditioned behaviours and conditioned thinking patterns. So as to whatever practice you are engaged with, whatever tradition etc., if any, what you hear and how it is
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
On 5/1/2014 9:43 PM, curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. The concepts and practices of Buddhism, according to Stephen Batchelor, are not something to believe in but */something to do/*. It is a practice that we can all engage in, regardless of our background or beliefs, as we live every day on the path to spiritual enlightenment. Basic TM is Buddhist yoga - it may be that MMY should have left it at that and retired back in 1955 instead of muddying the waters, so to speak. Basic TM should be able to stand on its own. That's what I think. Recommended: 'Buddhism Without Beliefs: A Contemporary Guide to Awakening' by Stephen Batchelor Riverhead Trade, 1998 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Harris is a practicing transcending MEDITATOR afterall
I believe this is what Sam Harris is advocating, separating the practices from the beliefs. I do not believe all meditations lead to the same mental states. TM has never been taught this way through the organization so I guess we don't know what innocent TM practice would be like.Even after dropping the beliefs my TM practice was influenced by what I had previously believed about it. Shaping our beliefs about the practice was a huge priority for Maharishi. I am hoping to enjoy mindfulness sitting with less concept clutter. Of course I can only be marginally successful with this goal, but I am not presently reading a bunch of stuff about it yet. Someday I'm sure I will, but I would like some more less filtered experience first. This is pretty much the reverse of how I approached TM. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 5/1/2014 9:43 PM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... wrote: It's all the same Unified Field once you get going. C: Although Sam Harris practices a form of meditation that came from the Buddhist traditions he does not self identify himself as a Buddhist. The concepts and practices of Buddhism, according to Stephen Batchelor, are not something to believe in but something to do. It is a practice that we can all engage in, regardless of our background or beliefs, as we live every day on the path to spiritual enlightenment. Basic TM is Buddhist yoga - it may be that MMY should have left it at that and retired back in 1955 instead of muddying the waters, so to speak. Basic TM should be able to stand on its own. That's what I think. Recommended: 'Buddhism Without Beliefs: A Contemporary Guide to Awakening' by Stephen Batchelor Riverhead Trade, 1998 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
