Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
At 07:54 AM 7/11/2008, you wrote: However, I did notice a strange occurrence on the oscolloscope, with the SEC-1223Â keydown continuous, there was just a voltage drop. But with the W-30AM, there was oscillation between the dropped voltage and the full voltage on continuous keydown. Will this oscillation cause my problems? I see it as TVI/RFI and am awaiting my XYL to return from work to get her assistance in more testing. Kind Rgds, Gwyn - G4FKH Oscillations are not good at all. You need a better power supply or a lot of work on cleaning that one up. I keep mentioning that to test the power supply you need a dynamic test not a steady state test because how the power supply reacts to change can be many times worse than the wiring drop, but it seems that the people testing are bent on doing static test which are rather useless in the long run. Forget DVM's they are too slow to see what is going on you need an oscilloscope. You can take a horse to water but . Cecil K5NWA www.softrockradio.org www.qrpradio.com Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Cecil, One thing at a time. The static test with a DVM was quick enough to prove that one should not be using the internal DC measurement as an accurate indication of anything truly vital, other than to say that there is a voltage present from the power supply. The O-Scope test is a little more involved, thus is being saved for this weekend. I will be using a digital storage scope so that I may capture a bit of data. This horse only drinks on the weekends ;) Thank you, Mike W5CUL k5nwa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 07:54 AM 7/11/2008, you wrote: However, I did notice a strange occurrence on the oscolloscope, with the SEC-1223Â keydown continuous, there was just a voltage drop. But with the W-30AM, there was oscillation between the dropped voltage and the full voltage on continuous keydown. Will this oscillation cause my problems? I see it as TVI/RFI and am awaiting my XYL to return from work to get her assistance in more testing. Kind Rgds, Gwyn - G4FKH Oscillations are not good at all. You need a better power supply or a lot of work on cleaning that one up. I keep mentioning that to test the power supply you need a dynamic test not a steady state test because how the power supply reacts to change can be many times worse than the wiring drop, but it seems that the people testing are bent on doing static test which are rather useless in the long run. Forget DVM's they are too slow to see what is going on you need an oscilloscope. You can take a horse to water but . Cecil K5NWA www.softrockradio.org www.qrpradio.com Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
On Jul 11, 2008, at 6:44 AM, k5nwa wrote: At 07:54 AM 7/11/2008, you wrote: However, I did notice a strange occurrence on the oscolloscope, with the SEC-1223Â keydown continuous, there was just a voltage drop. But with the W-30AM, there was oscillation between the dropped voltage and the full voltage on continuous keydown. Will this oscillation cause my problems? I see it as TVI/RFI and am awaiting my XYL to return from work to get her assistance in more testing. Kind Rgds, Gwyn - G4FKH Oscillations are not good at all. You need a better power supply or a lot of work on cleaning that one up. I keep mentioning that to test the power supply you need a dynamic test not a steady state test because how the power supply reacts to change can be many times worse than the wiring drop, but it seems that the people testing are bent on doing static test which are rather useless in the long run. Forget DVM's they are too slow to see what is going on you need an oscilloscope. You can take a horse to water but . It is all part of the testing process. Remember, the power feed system has it own *impedance*. That means resistance AND reactance. The static test is measuring the *resistance* of the power supply and power wiring. Certainly one can tackle those problems first, mostly just use fatter wire. Certainly the measurements at the output of the power supply suggest that the supply is very stiff and doesn't change much from no-load to full-load. But we aren't measuring the reactive portion. The biggest problem is inductance in the wire. First step to combat that is the bring the wires as close as possible in parallel (or twist them) in order to cancel their mutual inductance. That will help stiffen things up to a dynamic signal. The other thing that will help is to put a lot of energy storage (capacitance) right at the load (radio) in order to cancel out the inductive component of the wire. So yeah Cecil, a scope will let us see what is going on right at the radio. OTOH, I am sure that Flex could tell us if there is sufficient bypass inside the radio itself thus solving the problem. -- 73 de Brian, WB6RQN Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
The finals have two 470 uF caps in paralles (940 uF) right at the PA RF chokes and another 470 uF at the driver for a total of 1410 uF on the 13.8V bus. That does not count a string of 0.1 uF caps in parallel. Gerald Gerald Youngblood, K5SDR President FlexRadio Systems 13091 Pond Springs Rd. #250 Austin, TX 78729 Phone: 512-535-4713 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 2:40 PM To: k5nwa Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! On Jul 11, 2008, at 6:44 AM, k5nwa wrote: At 07:54 AM 7/11/2008, you wrote: However, I did notice a strange occurrence on the oscolloscope, with the SEC-1223Â keydown continuous, there was just a voltage drop. But with the W-30AM, there was oscillation between the dropped voltage and the full voltage on continuous keydown. Will this oscillation cause my problems? I see it as TVI/RFI and am awaiting my XYL to return from work to get her assistance in more testing. Kind Rgds, Gwyn - G4FKH Oscillations are not good at all. You need a better power supply or a lot of work on cleaning that one up. I keep mentioning that to test the power supply you need a dynamic test not a steady state test because how the power supply reacts to change can be many times worse than the wiring drop, but it seems that the people testing are bent on doing static test which are rather useless in the long run. Forget DVM's they are too slow to see what is going on you need an oscilloscope. You can take a horse to water but . It is all part of the testing process. Remember, the power feed system has it own *impedance*. That means resistance AND reactance. The static test is measuring the *resistance* of the power supply and power wiring. Certainly one can tackle those problems first, mostly just use fatter wire. Certainly the measurements at the output of the power supply suggest that the supply is very stiff and doesn't change much from no-load to full-load. But we aren't measuring the reactive portion. The biggest problem is inductance in the wire. First step to combat that is the bring the wires as close as possible in parallel (or twist them) in order to cancel their mutual inductance. That will help stiffen things up to a dynamic signal. The other thing that will help is to put a lot of energy storage (capacitance) right at the load (radio) in order to cancel out the inductive component of the wire. So yeah Cecil, a scope will let us see what is going on right at the radio. OTOH, I am sure that Flex could tell us if there is sufficient bypass inside the radio itself thus solving the problem. -- 73 de Brian, WB6RQN Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
At 02:07 PM 7/11/2008, Gerald Youngblood wrote: The finals have two 470 uF caps in paralles (940 uF) right at the PA RF chokes and another 470 uF at the driver for a total of 1410 uF on the 13.8V bus. That does not count a string of 0.1 uF caps in parallel. Gerald 1000 uF isn't all that much in an application drawing amps, where the load peaks are on the order of milliseconds. So.. assuming that at full power, voice peaks, you're drawing about 15 Amps, the cap voltage drop will be about 15/(2*470E-6) - 16V/ millisecond (assuming no replacement energy from the bus). The bus has a fairly low impedance, though, so it's not that bad. Figure the wires have a resistance of about 0.02 ohms, or 0.3V drop with the 15A load, so when you go from zero to full power, the bus voltage drops that much. When the load goes on, the capacitor will supply energy for the first few 10s of microseconds, then it's basically all done. Think of the filter capacitor as being the C in an RC time constant with the R being the load resistance (about 1 ohm, here). I suspect you need a MUCH stiffer power supply, if you're operating at a level where the voltage on the amplifier makes a difference. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Hello, I am one who usually sits back and watch things unfold and hope to learn from this reflector without making to many statements. Also I personally understand your concerns about any issues with the Flex5000. But I must say, if you are holding out because of a few issues that not everyone is having, you are also missing out on a terrific radio that I am very much enjoying and I am not having any of these issues. Keep in mind, I am sure Flex wants to stay in business and be able to continue this great cutting edge technology. In my opinion and I am just an average Joe if you will, and I am very please with the 5000 and with their great support. I have several HF rigs that are in the same price range and a bit higher, and I never have a desire to turn them on! I have had the Flex5000 from the first wave of radios and I have no thoughts of regrets. Enjoy! Ken K3YI PS: Buy the Radio! - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 6:33:09 AM Subject: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! How much importance should be given to this topic you ask? I respect the fact that any audio topic these days can be very subjective and carries many different opinions. But before you cast this topic off to the unimportant bin consider this thought. I know several people who are holding off buying a 5k until this problem goes away. I might be one of them. So it must be important to those not willing to purchase.and I would think equally important to those that want to sell them. **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
You all keep talking like there is a problem with the radio. I DON'T THINK SO. I've talked to a lot of them and they all sound in verying degrees of good. Some people have taken the time to use sound boards to feed the radio and $$$ mics and other use what ever they have straight in the front. Now if you take the Eq. and crank up the lows you can sound Muddy, crank the High and sound like a Tinwood. In my humble opinion, most of these people with problems have RF getting into there radio. My OFD on 40m introduces a little on my signal, but the Carolina with a vertical radiator and Isolator doesn't. Now if I add a Kilowatt, you can through the OFD away. When people have problems like what I'm hearing, the first question I have is? what antenna and what power level. Now I can go back and become just a reflector reader and Flex 5000A operator, Available any time to test. Just email me WA2TTI Jerry ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Oh, I forgot to add that I started using Flex in the early days with Serial number 25 and the first version of software on the SDR1000. In ICOM terms I'm now running a PRO MCXXVIII, and all I've purchased is ONE NEW RADIO that keeps getting better. Jerry ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Hi I noted that all guys who use flex5000 have the same problems of TX audio distortion , I did not hear a sample which worked correctly. Perhaps RFI, perhaps ALC ? I use SDR1K home made and I do not have these problems. I hope that the poor OM's who bought one flex5000 to have precisely a better modulation will not be frustrated. I wanted to purchase of Flex5000, Now I hesitate seriously... Regards. Chris F6AXN -Message d'origine- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] De la part de Jerry Harley Envoyé : jeudi 10 juillet 2008 13:59 À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc : flexradio@flex-radio.biz Objet : Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! You all keep talking like there is a problem with the radio. I DON'T THINK SO. I've talked to a lot of them and they all sound in verying degrees of good. Some people have taken the time to use sound boards to feed the radio and $$$ mics and other use what ever they have straight in the front. Now if you take the Eq. and crank up the lows you can sound Muddy, crank the High and sound like a Tinwood. In my humble opinion, most of these people with problems have RF getting into there radio. My OFD on 40m introduces a little on my signal, but the Carolina with a vertical radiator and Isolator doesn't. Now if I add a Kilowatt, you can through the OFD away. When people have problems like what I'm hearing, the first question I have is? what antenna and what power level. Now I can go back and become just a reflector reader and Flex 5000A operator, Available any time to test. Just email me WA2TTI Jerry ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Maybe it's only the earlier F5K's that are having problems. In any case, I echo Ken's comments. I continually get rave reviews on the quality of the F5K's audio. I don't doubt for a moment that Jeff, K6JCA and others are experiencing audio quality problems. Obviously, I can only speak from the comments I've received when using my 5K. The only audio problem I've encountered is when running digital voice using FDMDV. That problem is centered on the internal crappy computer sound card I'm using, which I'm still working to resolve. (I've yet to discover a good internal sound card. Maybe the new ASUS) Just hate to spend $200+ just to find that it doesn't work any better. In any case, comparing the F5K to my Orion II; the F5K (in every way) outperforms the OII. Don't misunderstand. The OII is a very fine transceiver and performs well but not as well as the F5K. I realize this is a subjective comment. The only area where I think the OII is slightly better is with the custom AGC performance. The bottom line to all this is; buy the F5K. You are missing the proverbial boat if you don't! One of the best thing about it is, it just keeps getting better!! Kirk, K6KAR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Danser Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 6:52 AM To: Flex Radio Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Hello, I am one who usually sits back and watch things unfold and hope to learn from this reflector without making to many statements. Also I personally understand your concerns about any issues with the Flex5000. But I must say, if you are holding out because of a few issues that not everyone is having, you are also missing out on a terrific radio that I am very much enjoying and I am not having any of these issues. Keep in mind, I am sure Flex wants to stay in business and be able to continue this great cutting edge technology. In my opinion and I am just an average Joe if you will, and I am very please with the 5000 and with their great support. I have several HF rigs that are in the same price range and a bit higher, and I never have a desire to turn them on! I have had the Flex5000 from the first wave of radios and I have no thoughts of regrets. Enjoy! Ken K3YI PS: Buy the Radio! - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 6:33:09 AM Subject: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! How much importance should be given to this topic you ask? I respect the fact that any audio topic these days can be very subjective and carries many different opinions. But before you cast this topic off to the unimportant bin consider this thought. I know several people who are holding off buying a 5k until this problem goes away. I might be one of them. So it must be important to those not willing to purchase.and I would think equally important to those that want to sell them. **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112) ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Hi, Chris. Only the earlier F5K's that are having problems. Have no doubt and buy F5k. Good radio indeed. P.S. Here RFI is mentionned as the main problem. But I have heard distortion and with QRP... -- Sergey RW3PS Hi I noted that all guys who use flex5000 have the same problems of TX audio distortion , I did not hear a sample which worked correctly. Perhaps RFI, perhaps ALC ? I use SDR1K home made and I do not have these problems. I hope that the poor OM's who bought one flex5000 to have precisely a better modulation will not be frustrated. I wanted to purchase of Flex5000, Now I hesitate seriously... Regards. Chris F6AXN ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Mike, In all FlexRadio models, AM is really an amplitude modulated 11 KHz carrier that is transmitted in SSB mode on exactly the same hardware signal chain as the SSB signals. In other words, AM is a SSB signal on both the 1000 and 5000. AM and SSB are both transmitted the same way from the digital to analog converter through the PA stages to the antenna. There is no hardware difference. Gerald Gerald Youngblood, K5SDR President FlexRadio Systems 13091 Pond Springs Rd. #250 Austin, TX 78729 Phone: 512-535-4713 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 11:30 PM To: Maarten Cc: FlexRadio Reflector Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Maarten, the abnormality is always there in all bandwidths in the ssb mode. The audio in the AM mode can best be described as superb. I think most of us have a desire to have the Flex line of radios to be the best that are out there in all parameters. Well, the ssb audio has a problem. There are many inside and outside the Flex company that have been and are in various forms of denial. You may be comfortable with that. However, as you can see from this reflector, there are many that hear the problem and would like to see a cure. Mike, K6ZSR Maarten wrote: What does a comment I can pick out a Flex 5000 audio at least 4 out of 5 times mean. I know people that can distinguish the difference in sound between a Porsche vs a Ferari. For most people both cars sound just like any other car. Lets get real. I doubt anyone can pick out a Flex1000/5000 (or any other rig)when the signal is less than S5. How about when there is QSB or QRM. Do we really want the limited resources of the Flex developers spent on some audio artifact that most of us can not hear or do not care about if we hear it on someones signal. I can come up with a list of 10 more important issues that I would like to see improvements on. 73 Maarten N1DZ BTW is this abnormality in the audio also audible when you use a normal SSB bandwidth. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:18 PM To: FlexRadio Reflector Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! I can pick out a Flex 5000 audio at least 4 out of 5 times. I proved that when K6JCA ran a test. I would have caught the 5th one but conditions deteriorated and it was difficult to hear the signal in its totality. There is something definitely wrong going on with the rig as concerns the audio. I can best describe it as a tearing sound on the high audio frequencies. This is not RF getting into the audio. It is definitely there and it is definitely not a local area thing. John, W5GI has very nice full audio, no one can deny that - But John like all other 5000 users, has that trademark audio tearing. Is this some digital artifact creeping into the audio chain? - I don't know. It is there and it isn't going away. I love my 5000 and I have sold my FTdx9000a because I kept going back to the 5000 as my main rig, even with the abnormality in the audio. I hope that there will be a fix to the problem and I only wish I knew of someway to help other than to describe what I and many many others hear on the signal. de Mike, K6ZSR Jimmy Jones wrote: Thank you Someone else can hear. I was beginning to wonder. On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 12:18 -0700, K6JEK wrote: It not just Jeff. I'm one of the guys who've been listening to the various audio tests. We first noticed something funny in someone else's 5000 before Jeff even got his. We ran experiment after experiment. This guy finally returned his for a refund. Then another fellow (not in the local rag chew group) broke in with his 5000 to say he's just waiting for someone to figure this out. His 5000 had the same problem. We've been listening and recording with a variety of equipment ranging from 1000's to direct conversion home brews. It is subtle. It might be rare. But it is not unique to JCA I think Jeff's nailed it. The audio up through the driver stage is perfect. It gets funky in the final. Why and what to do about it is another matter. Jon On Jul 7, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Jeff Anderson wrote: I agree, it's peculiar. But again - if it's a leveler issue (i.e. software) I'd expect to hear it at the PA driver, too. But I don't (but perhaps others do? Ref: 1st half of 6 July test). By the way, I just checked, and the Leveler has been OFF (box not checked) for all of my tests. The only TX effect I have enabled is TX EQ, which is set to the same EQ values for all of my tests. What I wonder is this: can distortion at RF (rather than at AF) have this same soft compression effect, after the RF is demodulated? - Jeff Frank Brickle wrote
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Quoting Gerald Youngblood [EMAIL PROTECTED], on Thu 10 Jul 2008 06:50:23 AM PDT: Mike, In all FlexRadio models, AM is really an amplitude modulated 11 KHz carrier that is transmitted in SSB mode on exactly the same hardware signal chain as the SSB signals. In other words, AM is a SSB signal on both the 1000 and 5000. AM and SSB are both transmitted the same way from the digital to analog converter through the PA stages to the antenna. There is no hardware difference. Gerald Maarten, the abnormality is always there in all bandwidths in the ssb mode. The audio in the AM mode can best be described as superb. I think most of us have a desire to have the Flex line of radios to be the best that are out there in all parameters. Well, the ssb audio has a problem. There are many inside and outside the Flex company that have been and are in various forms of denial. You may be comfortable with that. However, as you can see from this reflector, there are many that hear the problem and would like to see a cure. Mike, K6ZSR Same transmit chain, BUT, very different detection method between SSB and AM. I'm sure there are Tx anomalies that could occur that would be readily detectable with SSB but not with an envelope detector. An interesting case is where the two sidebands are fading independently. Another case is where there are instantaneous changes in the carrier frequency. With SSB receiver, you'd hear it, with AM detection, you wouldn't. Not that either of these represents what's actually going on. The interesting question is whether, when listening to an AM signal, using a SSB receiver, what it sounds like. (and assuming the SSB receiver has good enough selectivity to suppress the carrier and opposite sideband) ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
This is absolutely not true I have #19 from the first production run and I do NOT have the audio distortion issue. -Tim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sergey Abramov Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:30 AM To: Reflector Flex-Radio Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Hi, Chris. Only the earlier F5K's that are having problems. Have no doubt and buy F5k. Good radio indeed. P.S. Here RFI is mentionned as the main problem. But I have heard distortion and with QRP... -- Sergey RW3PS Hi I noted that all guys who use flex5000 have the same problems of TX audio distortion , I did not hear a sample which worked correctly. Perhaps RFI, perhaps ALC ? I use SDR1K home made and I do not have these problems. I hope that the poor OM's who bought one flex5000 to have precisely a better modulation will not be frustrated. I wanted to purchase of Flex5000, Now I hesitate seriously... Regards. Chris F6AXN ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
At 05:33 AM 7/10/2008, you wrote: How much importance should be given to this topic you ask? I respect the fact that any audio topic these days can be very subjective and carries many different opinions. But before you cast this topic off to the unimportant bin consider this thought. I know several people who are holding off buying a 5k until this problem goes away. I might be one of them. So it must be important to those not willing to purchase.and I would think equally important to those that want to sell them. It has been mentioned before but I did not noticed any comments on test afterwards. Have people having these problems looked at their power voltage with an oscilloscope (not a slow meter) while talking away at full power? If the power supply sags on peaks for whatever the reason your sound quality will suffer with an AB class amplifier whose current demand goes all over the place. I had a similar problem with a Kenwood and it went away when I bought a much bigger power supply (Linear 35A for a 100W radio) and connected it to the radio with short twisted 4 gauge wires. My original power supply had 5 extra amps capacity over stated requirements, but you could see it sag with voice peaks, the new one doesn't budge at all. Cecil K5NWA www.softrockradio.org www.qrpradio.com Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
If you listen to AM in SAM mode you will be effectively listening in DSB mode. Gerald Gerald Youngblood, K5SDR President FlexRadio Systems 13091 Pond Springs Rd. #250 Austin, TX 78729 Phone: 512-535-4713 -Original Message- From: Jim Lux [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Maarten'; 'FlexRadio Reflector' Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Quoting Gerald Youngblood [EMAIL PROTECTED], on Thu 10 Jul 2008 06:50:23 AM PDT: Mike, In all FlexRadio models, AM is really an amplitude modulated 11 KHz carrier that is transmitted in SSB mode on exactly the same hardware signal chain as the SSB signals. In other words, AM is a SSB signal on both the 1000 and 5000. AM and SSB are both transmitted the same way from the digital to analog converter through the PA stages to the antenna. There is no hardware difference. Gerald Maarten, the abnormality is always there in all bandwidths in the ssb mode. The audio in the AM mode can best be described as superb. I think most of us have a desire to have the Flex line of radios to be the best that are out there in all parameters. Well, the ssb audio has a problem. There are many inside and outside the Flex company that have been and are in various forms of denial. You may be comfortable with that. However, as you can see from this reflector, there are many that hear the problem and would like to see a cure. Mike, K6ZSR Same transmit chain, BUT, very different detection method between SSB and AM. I'm sure there are Tx anomalies that could occur that would be readily detectable with SSB but not with an envelope detector. An interesting case is where the two sidebands are fading independently. Another case is where there are instantaneous changes in the carrier frequency. With SSB receiver, you'd hear it, with AM detection, you wouldn't. Not that either of these represents what's actually going on. The interesting question is whether, when listening to an AM signal, using a SSB receiver, what it sounds like. (and assuming the SSB receiver has good enough selectivity to suppress the carrier and opposite sideband) ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
At 08:50 AM 7/10/2008, you wrote: Mike, In all FlexRadio models, AM is really an amplitude modulated 11 KHz carrier that is transmitted in SSB mode on exactly the same hardware signal chain as the SSB signals. In other words, AM is a SSB signal on both the 1000 and 5000. AM and SSB are both transmitted the same way from the digital to analog converter through the PA stages to the antenna. There is no hardware difference. Gerald Gerald Youngblood, K5SDR President FlexRadio Systems I'm of the thought that there is an external cause, mainly the power into the radio. Although the signals are generated through similar methods and using the same hardware the effect on current drain is not the same. AM with it's steady carrier power always on limits the variation on the power demands, SSB on the other hand it can vary the current drain from the bias point all the way to Full power current from millisecond to millisecond. Maybe I missed it but I have not heard of complains on AM mode with this issue which again makes me think of excessive voltage variations due to varying load on the Power source. Hopefully someone will measure their voltage at the connection to their radio while running full power on voice SSB. While you are at it, put a big Ferrite choke and bypass caps on it to keep RF out. Cecil K5NWA www.softrockradio.org www.qrpradio.com Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Ditto from me, I have serial number 3. Bob K5KDN -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tim Ellison Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:24 AM To: Sergey Abramov; Reflector Flex-Radio Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! This is absolutely not true I have #19 from the first production run and I do NOT have the audio distortion issue. -Tim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sergey Abramov Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:30 AM To: Reflector Flex-Radio Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Hi, Chris. Only the earlier F5K's that are having problems. Have no doubt and buy F5k. Good radio indeed. P.S. Here RFI is mentionned as the main problem. But I have heard distortion and with QRP... -- Sergey RW3PS Hi I noted that all guys who use flex5000 have the same problems of TX audio distortion , I did not hear a sample which worked correctly. Perhaps RFI, perhaps ALC ? I use SDR1K home made and I do not have these problems. I hope that the poor OM's who bought one flex5000 to have precisely a better modulation will not be frustrated. I wanted to purchase of Flex5000, Now I hesitate seriously... Regards. Chris F6AXN ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Dear Flexers, I will reiterate my statement from yesterday. There have been NO hardware changes to the PA since serial number one. Very early radios shipped in the August 2007 time frame went out with lower bias settings on the drivers and PA. This was changed by Setptember 2007. We worked with many of those customers to update the bias settings in the field. If you have a radio from this time frame, you may want to contact our technical support to get assistance in calibrating to the corrected bias settings. Regards, Gerald Gerald Youngblood, K5SDR President FlexRadio Systems 13091 Pond Springs Rd. #250 Austin, TX 78729 Phone: 512-535-4713 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gwyn Williams Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:16 AM To: Flex Reflector Subject: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Dear All, I would like to put my tuppence worth in. Firstly, I would like to say that I thoroughly enjoy using the F5K, it is a wonderful experience. However, there is a serious problem with at least some of the units. If it is only the earlier F5Ks as suggested by RW3PS, then that is good news, because it means that the old ones can be fixed, and should be. It should be possible to backtrack development to the appropriate time and see what changes were made at that time. Philosophically, it is counter productive for those enjoying good audio quality output to berate those who do not. The unfortunate owner is only attempting to get their unit up to specification. My own F5K has gone back to the selling agent for repair to this audio problem, Im hoping it comes back at 100% efficiency and has a clean output. To finish I would seriously suggest that anyone considering purchasing, hold off until all the older units have been sold and a resolution to this audio problem has been found and detailed. Best 73s, Gwyn G4FKH ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Could it be that the older HRFIO board has something to do with this ? Not sure when the changeover between the 27 34 boards. Possible rf issues with the older board ? Just guessing. 73's , Bruce KL7JDR Bruce W. Mills P.O. Box 1500 31490 Echo Lake Road Soldotna , Alaska 99669 (907)262-4373 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
I saw a similar discussion on the Kenwood site last year. The problem was traced to corrosion on the in-line fuse holder between the power supply and the rig. If there are any problems on this wire like a tired fuse, corroded fuse holder, under-sized wire, or bad soldering; the voltage in the rig will sag on voice peaks, even though the voltage may show rock steady coming out of the power supply. Sorry to mention the obvious, but it might be a good reminder. 73, Doug VE3EFC. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
At 07:38 AM 7/10/2008, Gerald Youngblood wrote: If you listen to AM in SAM mode you will be effectively listening in DSB mode. Gerald The interesting question is whether, when listening to an AM signal, using a SSB receiver, what it sounds like. (and assuming the SSB receiver has good enough selectivity to suppress the carrier and opposite sideband) What I was thinking of was more a diagnostic technique.. Use an SSB receiver to listen to first one, then the other sideband of an AM signal, to see if it manifests the same (installation location specific) anomaly. Another idea to cast to the winds.. Power supplies... When the problem didn't follow the radio to a new location, was there a different power system? Or, did the power supply go with it? (K5NWA has commented along these lines, too..) Jim, W6RMK ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
At 08:52 AM 7/10/2008, Doug McCormack wrote: I saw a similar discussion on the Kenwood site last year. The problem was traced to corrosion on the in-line fuse holder between the power supply and the rig. If there are any problems on this wire like a tired fuse, corroded fuse holder, under-sized wire, or bad soldering; the voltage in the rig will sag on voice peaks, even though the voltage may show rock steady coming out of the power supply. And there was a similar issue with frequency stability on the SDR1K, where under load, the power supply sagged a bit, causing the temperature of the thermistor on the crystal to change a bit, etc. Jim ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Doug, I agree that it probably is power supply related. In most of the comments, everyone has overlooked the fact that Jeff's radio was sent back to Flex and thoroughly checked out, and the problem was not found. However, nobody, including Flex, disputes the fact that there is a problem when the rig is operated at Jeff's QTH. This means that the problem is specific to Jeff's installation. It cannot be bias adjustment, design flaw, or anything else within the radio itself. The power supply associated wiring is the only factor that is different between the 2 locations. The 1st thing I would do is put an oscilloscope on the DC power input at the radio, not at the output of the power supply. But then, I suspect that he has tried that already. 73, Ray, K9DUR ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
This is absolutely not true I agree this not truth. I have simply said their own experience with this. I have #19 from the first production run and I do NOT have the audio distortion issue. This three transceivers have a distortion and at present. #0651-x #3207-x #4707-x This three transceivers do NOT have the audio distortion issue. #0808-x #1108-x #0811-x All this transceivers charged current version Firmware and were tested in my shack at equal terms. I must speak else, obviously people not capable equally to value sound. One of my hobby in HamRadio this ESSB and I very attentive for clean sound. Allow also some people can not hear this because of its nature. I me repeat, I have simply said their own experience with this and do not know reason of this. 73! --- Sergey RW3PS ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
One other thing to do is use the SHIFT+CTRL+I to bring up the Information dialog box and see what voltage is being shown during transmit. This is not as accurate, but I will give you an indication of what might be happening. I needed to adjust the output voltage on my Astron RS-35M up by about 0.5 volts and I still see a sage from 13.8 to 13.4 during transmit. BTW, I have an early FLEX-5000 and I don't hear the reported distortion listening with a 2nd receiver. -Tim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ray, K9DUR Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:25 PM To: 'Doug McCormack'; flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Doug, I agree that it probably is power supply related. In most of the comments, everyone has overlooked the fact that Jeff's radio was sent back to Flex and thoroughly checked out, and the problem was not found. However, nobody, including Flex, disputes the fact that there is a problem when the rig is operated at Jeff's QTH. This means that the problem is specific to Jeff's installation. It cannot be bias adjustment, design flaw, or anything else within the radio itself. The power supply associated wiring is the only factor that is different between the 2 locations. The 1st thing I would do is put an oscilloscope on the DC power input at the radio, not at the output of the power supply. But then, I suspect that he has tried that already. 73, Ray, K9DUR ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Some time ago I looked at power supply variation (using a scope), and I didn't see anything abnormal when comparing my 1K to my 5K (there was some small variation under load) , both of which run off of the same supply (Astron RM-35). Of course, this doesn't let the supply out of the woods, but it moved it lower down my list of possible suspects. Tim's method is also a good way to check supply sag when under load, but it's also important to define what the test condition is. Tim, was this using the TUN signal? And if so, at what power? Thanks, - Jeff Tim Ellison wrote: One other thing to do is use the SHIFT+CTRL+I to bring up the Information dialog box and see what voltage is being shown during transmit. This is not as accurate, but I will give you an indication of what might be happening. I needed to adjust the output voltage on my Astron RS-35M up by about 0.5 volts and I still see a sage from 13.8 to 13.4 during transmit. BTW, I have an early FLEX-5000 and I don't hear the reported distortion listening with a 2nd receiver. -Tim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ray, K9DUR Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:25 PM To: 'Doug McCormack'; flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Doug, I agree that it probably is power supply related. In most of the comments, everyone has overlooked the fact that Jeff's radio was sent back to Flex and thoroughly checked out, and the problem was not found. However, nobody, including Flex, disputes the fact that there is a problem when the rig is operated at Jeff's QTH. This means that the problem is specific to Jeff's installation. It cannot be bias adjustment, design flaw, or anything else within the radio itself. The power supply associated wiring is the only factor that is different between the 2 locations. The 1st thing I would do is put an oscilloscope on the DC power input at the radio, not at the output of the power supply. But then, I suspect that he has tried that already. 73, Ray, K9DUR ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
It was usually during digital mode transmissions (50 watts, psk) and some phone transmissions too (100 watts). -Tim -Original Message- From: Jeff Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:00 PM To: Tim Ellison Cc: Ray, K9DUR; 'Doug McCormack'; flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Some time ago I looked at power supply variation (using a scope), and I didn't see anything abnormal when comparing my 1K to my 5K (there was some small variation under load) , both of which run off of the same supply (Astron RM-35). Of course, this doesn't let the supply out of the woods, but it moved it lower down my list of possible suspects. Tim's method is also a good way to check supply sag when under load, but it's also important to define what the test condition is. Tim, was this using the TUN signal? And if so, at what power? Thanks, - Jeff Tim Ellison wrote: One other thing to do is use the SHIFT+CTRL+I to bring up the Information dialog box and see what voltage is being shown during transmit. This is not as accurate, but I will give you an indication of what might be happening. I needed to adjust the output voltage on my Astron RS-35M up by about 0.5 volts and I still see a sage from 13.8 to 13.4 during transmit. BTW, I have an early FLEX-5000 and I don't hear the reported distortion listening with a 2nd receiver. -Tim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ray, K9DUR Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:25 PM To: 'Doug McCormack'; flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Doug, I agree that it probably is power supply related. In most of the comments, everyone has overlooked the fact that Jeff's radio was sent back to Flex and thoroughly checked out, and the problem was not found. However, nobody, including Flex, disputes the fact that there is a problem when the rig is operated at Jeff's QTH. This means that the problem is specific to Jeff's installation. It cannot be bias adjustment, design flaw, or anything else within the radio itself. The power supply associated wiring is the only factor that is different between the 2 locations. The 1st thing I would do is put an oscilloscope on the DC power input at the radio, not at the output of the power supply. But then, I suspect that he has tried that already. 73, Ray, K9DUR ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
I can pick out a Flex 5000 audio at least 4 out of 5 times. I proved that when K6JCA ran a test. I would have caught the 5th one but conditions deteriorated and it was difficult to hear the signal in its totality. There is something definitely wrong going on with the rig as concerns the audio. I can best describe it as a tearing sound on the high audio frequencies. This is not RF getting into the audio. It is definitely there and it is definitely not a local area thing. John, W5GI has very nice full audio, no one can deny that - But John like all other 5000 users, has that trademark audio tearing. Is this some digital artifact creeping into the audio chain? - I don't know. It is there and it isn't going away. I love my 5000 and I have sold my FTdx9000a because I kept going back to the 5000 as my main rig, even with the abnormality in the audio. I hope that there will be a fix to the problem and I only wish I knew of someway to help other than to describe what I and many many others hear on the signal. de Mike, K6ZSR Jimmy Jones wrote: Thank you Someone else can hear. I was beginning to wonder. On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 12:18 -0700, K6JEK wrote: It not just Jeff. I'm one of the guys who've been listening to the various audio tests. We first noticed something funny in someone else's 5000 before Jeff even got his. We ran experiment after experiment. This guy finally returned his for a refund. Then another fellow (not in the local rag chew group) broke in with his 5000 to say he's just waiting for someone to figure this out. His 5000 had the same problem. We've been listening and recording with a variety of equipment ranging from 1000's to direct conversion home brews. It is subtle. It might be rare. But it is not unique to JCA I think Jeff's nailed it. The audio up through the driver stage is perfect. It gets funky in the final. Why and what to do about it is another matter. Jon On Jul 7, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Jeff Anderson wrote: I agree, it's peculiar. But again - if it's a leveler issue (i.e. software) I'd expect to hear it at the PA driver, too. But I don't (but perhaps others do? Ref: 1st half of 6 July test). By the way, I just checked, and the Leveler has been OFF (box not checked) for all of my tests. The only TX effect I have enabled is TX EQ, which is set to the same EQ values for all of my tests. What I wonder is this: can distortion at RF (rather than at AF) have this same soft compression effect, after the RF is demodulated? - Jeff Frank Brickle wrote: On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Jeff Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank, I agree, I'm sure the distortion is not in the ADC/DAC components (nor software, nor input stages) either, because I don't hear it at the 5K PA's *driver stage* output, which is well after the output DAC (ref: 1st half of 6 July recording). The problem only pops up at the output of the *final* stage. What's peculiar about the compression is that it's soft, not clipped. You have to wonder about the leveler settings. 73 Frank AB2KT -- Sapristi nabolis! -- Count Jim Moriarty ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http:// www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
On Jul 9, 2008, at 6:18 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can pick out a Flex 5000 audio at least 4 out of 5 times. I proved that when K6JCA ran a test. I would have caught the 5th one but conditions deteriorated and it was difficult to hear the signal in its totality. There is something definitely wrong going on with the rig as concerns the audio. I can best describe it as a tearing sound on the high audio frequencies. This is not RF getting into the audio. It is definitely there and it is definitely not a local area thing. John, W5GI has very nice full audio, no one can deny that - But John like all other 5000 users, has that trademark audio tearing. Is this some digital artifact creeping into the audio chain? - I don't know. It is there and it isn't going away. I love my 5000 and I have sold my FTdx9000a because I kept going back to the 5000 as my main rig, even with the abnormality in the audio. I hope that there will be a fix to the problem and I only wish I knew of someway to help other than to describe what I and many many others hear on the signal. Aliasing? -- 73 de Brian, WB6RQN Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
What does a comment I can pick out a Flex 5000 audio at least 4 out of 5 times mean. I know people that can distinguish the difference in sound between a Porsche vs a Ferari. For most people both cars sound just like any other car. Lets get real. I doubt anyone can pick out a Flex1000/5000 (or any other rig)when the signal is less than S5. How about when there is QSB or QRM. Do we really want the limited resources of the Flex developers spent on some audio artifact that most of us can not hear or do not care about if we hear it on someones signal. I can come up with a list of 10 more important issues that I would like to see improvements on. 73 Maarten N1DZ BTW is this abnormality in the audio also audible when you use a normal SSB bandwidth. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:18 PM To: FlexRadio Reflector Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! I can pick out a Flex 5000 audio at least 4 out of 5 times. I proved that when K6JCA ran a test. I would have caught the 5th one but conditions deteriorated and it was difficult to hear the signal in its totality. There is something definitely wrong going on with the rig as concerns the audio. I can best describe it as a tearing sound on the high audio frequencies. This is not RF getting into the audio. It is definitely there and it is definitely not a local area thing. John, W5GI has very nice full audio, no one can deny that - But John like all other 5000 users, has that trademark audio tearing. Is this some digital artifact creeping into the audio chain? - I don't know. It is there and it isn't going away. I love my 5000 and I have sold my FTdx9000a because I kept going back to the 5000 as my main rig, even with the abnormality in the audio. I hope that there will be a fix to the problem and I only wish I knew of someway to help other than to describe what I and many many others hear on the signal. de Mike, K6ZSR Jimmy Jones wrote: Thank you Someone else can hear. I was beginning to wonder. On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 12:18 -0700, K6JEK wrote: It not just Jeff. I'm one of the guys who've been listening to the various audio tests. We first noticed something funny in someone else's 5000 before Jeff even got his. We ran experiment after experiment. This guy finally returned his for a refund. Then another fellow (not in the local rag chew group) broke in with his 5000 to say he's just waiting for someone to figure this out. His 5000 had the same problem. We've been listening and recording with a variety of equipment ranging from 1000's to direct conversion home brews. It is subtle. It might be rare. But it is not unique to JCA I think Jeff's nailed it. The audio up through the driver stage is perfect. It gets funky in the final. Why and what to do about it is another matter. Jon On Jul 7, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Jeff Anderson wrote: I agree, it's peculiar. But again - if it's a leveler issue (i.e. software) I'd expect to hear it at the PA driver, too. But I don't (but perhaps others do? Ref: 1st half of 6 July test). By the way, I just checked, and the Leveler has been OFF (box not checked) for all of my tests. The only TX effect I have enabled is TX EQ, which is set to the same EQ values for all of my tests. What I wonder is this: can distortion at RF (rather than at AF) have this same soft compression effect, after the RF is demodulated? - Jeff Frank Brickle wrote: On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Jeff Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank, I agree, I'm sure the distortion is not in the ADC/DAC components (nor software, nor input stages) either, because I don't hear it at the 5K PA's *driver stage* output, which is well after the output DAC (ref: 1st half of 6 July recording). The problem only pops up at the output of the *final* stage. What's peculiar about the compression is that it's soft, not clipped. You have to wonder about the leveler settings. 73 Frank AB2KT -- Sapristi nabolis! -- Count Jim Moriarty ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http:// www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Maarten, the abnormality is always there in all bandwidths in the ssb mode. The audio in the AM mode can best be described as superb. I think most of us have a desire to have the Flex line of radios to be the best that are out there in all parameters. Well, the ssb audio has a problem. There are many inside and outside the Flex company that have been and are in various forms of denial. You may be comfortable with that. However, as you can see from this reflector, there are many that hear the problem and would like to see a cure. Mike, K6ZSR Maarten wrote: What does a comment I can pick out a Flex 5000 audio at least 4 out of 5 times mean. I know people that can distinguish the difference in sound between a Porsche vs a Ferari. For most people both cars sound just like any other car. Lets get real. I doubt anyone can pick out a Flex1000/5000 (or any other rig)when the signal is less than S5. How about when there is QSB or QRM. Do we really want the limited resources of the Flex developers spent on some audio artifact that most of us can not hear or do not care about if we hear it on someones signal. I can come up with a list of 10 more important issues that I would like to see improvements on. 73 Maarten N1DZ BTW is this abnormality in the audio also audible when you use a normal SSB bandwidth. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:18 PM To: FlexRadio Reflector Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! I can pick out a Flex 5000 audio at least 4 out of 5 times. I proved that when K6JCA ran a test. I would have caught the 5th one but conditions deteriorated and it was difficult to hear the signal in its totality. There is something definitely wrong going on with the rig as concerns the audio. I can best describe it as a tearing sound on the high audio frequencies. This is not RF getting into the audio. It is definitely there and it is definitely not a local area thing. John, W5GI has very nice full audio, no one can deny that - But John like all other 5000 users, has that trademark audio tearing. Is this some digital artifact creeping into the audio chain? - I don't know. It is there and it isn't going away. I love my 5000 and I have sold my FTdx9000a because I kept going back to the 5000 as my main rig, even with the abnormality in the audio. I hope that there will be a fix to the problem and I only wish I knew of someway to help other than to describe what I and many many others hear on the signal. de Mike, K6ZSR Jimmy Jones wrote: Thank you Someone else can hear. I was beginning to wonder. On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 12:18 -0700, K6JEK wrote: It not just Jeff. I'm one of the guys who've been listening to the various audio tests. We first noticed something funny in someone else's 5000 before Jeff even got his. We ran experiment after experiment. This guy finally returned his for a refund. Then another fellow (not in the local rag chew group) broke in with his 5000 to say he's just waiting for someone to figure this out. His 5000 had the same problem. We've been listening and recording with a variety of equipment ranging from 1000's to direct conversion home brews. It is subtle. It might be rare. But it is not unique to JCA I think Jeff's nailed it. The audio up through the driver stage is perfect. It gets funky in the final. Why and what to do about it is another matter. Jon On Jul 7, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Jeff Anderson wrote: I agree, it's peculiar. But again - if it's a leveler issue (i.e. software) I'd expect to hear it at the PA driver, too. But I don't (but perhaps others do? Ref: 1st half of 6 July test). By the way, I just checked, and the Leveler has been OFF (box not checked) for all of my tests. The only TX effect I have enabled is TX EQ, which is set to the same EQ values for all of my tests. What I wonder is this: can distortion at RF (rather than at AF) have this same soft compression effect, after the RF is demodulated? - Jeff Frank Brickle wrote: On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Jeff Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank, I agree, I'm sure the distortion is not in the ADC/DAC components (nor software, nor input stages) either, because I don't hear it at the 5K PA's *driver stage* output, which is well after the output DAC (ref: 1st half of 6 July recording). The problem only pops up at the output of the *final* stage. What's peculiar about the compression is that it's soft, not clipped. You have to wonder about the leveler settings. 73 Frank AB2KT -- Sapristi nabolis! -- Count Jim Moriarty ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Hi All, I have bought several transceivers Flex5000 for russian ham from the first running and at present. And I want to say, all transceiver made before April of the month had and have problems SSB TX Audio. New Flex5000 made after April, without problems, have clean and clear sound TX. My suggestions, much more likely reason is in PA or Driver. These distortion possible to hear on other receiver only, but not through MONI, sound in MONI always clear and clean. Possible FlexRadio have done some changes to hardware in new transceiver, they are deprived from this defect. Flex5000 first running continue to work with distortion hitherto. -- Sergey RW3PS ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
It not just Jeff. I'm one of the guys who've been listening to the various audio tests. We first noticed something funny in someone else's 5000 before Jeff even got his. We ran experiment after experiment. This guy finally returned his for a refund. Then another fellow (not in the local rag chew group) broke in with his 5000 to say he's just waiting for someone to figure this out. His 5000 had the same problem. We've been listening and recording with a variety of equipment ranging from 1000's to direct conversion home brews. It is subtle. It might be rare. But it is not unique to JCA I think Jeff's nailed it. The audio up through the driver stage is perfect. It gets funky in the final. Why and what to do about it is another matter. Jon On Jul 7, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Jeff Anderson wrote: I agree, it's peculiar. But again - if it's a leveler issue (i.e. software) I'd expect to hear it at the PA driver, too. But I don't (but perhaps others do? Ref: 1st half of 6 July test). By the way, I just checked, and the Leveler has been OFF (box not checked) for all of my tests. The only TX effect I have enabled is TX EQ, which is set to the same EQ values for all of my tests. What I wonder is this: can distortion at RF (rather than at AF) have this same soft compression effect, after the RF is demodulated? - Jeff Frank Brickle wrote: On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Jeff Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank, I agree, I'm sure the distortion is not in the ADC/DAC components (nor software, nor input stages) either, because I don't hear it at the 5K PA's *driver stage* output, which is well after the output DAC (ref: 1st half of 6 July recording). The problem only pops up at the output of the *final* stage. What's peculiar about the compression is that it's soft, not clipped. You have to wonder about the leveler settings. 73 Frank AB2KT -- Sapristi nabolis! -- Count Jim Moriarty ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http:// www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
On Jul 8, 2008, at 12:18 PM, K6JEK wrote: It not just Jeff. I'm one of the guys who've been listening to the various audio tests. We first noticed something funny in someone else's 5000 before Jeff even got his. We ran experiment after experiment. This guy finally returned his for a refund. Then another fellow (not in the local rag chew group) broke in with his 5000 to say he's just waiting for someone to figure this out. His 5000 had the same problem. We've been listening and recording with a variety of equipment ranging from 1000's to direct conversion home brews. It is subtle. It might be rare. But it is not unique to JCA I think Jeff's nailed it. The audio up through the driver stage is perfect. It gets funky in the final. Why and what to do about it is another matter. Has anyone run single-tone and two-tone tests and looked at the distortion products? (THD and IMD). If you can hear it you can probably measure it. The spectrum will tell you something about what might be causing it. Oh, has anyone looked at the gain of the PA? If the PA uses feedback to linearize it, there may be a problem with the feedback loop and the PA may be running open-loop. -- 73 de Brian, WB6RQN Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Thank you Someone else can hear. I was beginning to wonder. On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 12:18 -0700, K6JEK wrote: It not just Jeff. I'm one of the guys who've been listening to the various audio tests. We first noticed something funny in someone else's 5000 before Jeff even got his. We ran experiment after experiment. This guy finally returned his for a refund. Then another fellow (not in the local rag chew group) broke in with his 5000 to say he's just waiting for someone to figure this out. His 5000 had the same problem. We've been listening and recording with a variety of equipment ranging from 1000's to direct conversion home brews. It is subtle. It might be rare. But it is not unique to JCA I think Jeff's nailed it. The audio up through the driver stage is perfect. It gets funky in the final. Why and what to do about it is another matter. Jon On Jul 7, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Jeff Anderson wrote: I agree, it's peculiar. But again - if it's a leveler issue (i.e. software) I'd expect to hear it at the PA driver, too. But I don't (but perhaps others do? Ref: 1st half of 6 July test). By the way, I just checked, and the Leveler has been OFF (box not checked) for all of my tests. The only TX effect I have enabled is TX EQ, which is set to the same EQ values for all of my tests. What I wonder is this: can distortion at RF (rather than at AF) have this same soft compression effect, after the RF is demodulated? - Jeff Frank Brickle wrote: On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Jeff Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank, I agree, I'm sure the distortion is not in the ADC/DAC components (nor software, nor input stages) either, because I don't hear it at the 5K PA's *driver stage* output, which is well after the output DAC (ref: 1st half of 6 July recording). The problem only pops up at the output of the *final* stage. What's peculiar about the compression is that it's soft, not clipped. You have to wonder about the leveler settings. 73 Frank AB2KT -- Sapristi nabolis! -- Count Jim Moriarty ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http:// www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Hi Brian, I've run THD (on the analog signals) and IMD (on the RF signals). What I hear correlates strongly with IMD levels at lower powers (where much of our voice energy is) when compared between 5K driver, 5K final, and a 1k. Correlation does not mean causality, but...no one has yet come up with a better idea. Other notes... I recalibrated the bias and power (default bias seems to be 1.0A for the drivers and 2.0A for the finals). I can't tell if there's a change in distortion or not, but IMD did not change appreciably (a dB or so). Will listen again tomorrow - my ears are tired. Also, I tried 10-band EQ settings from Dale. No joy. Does anyone who is familiar with the 5K circuitry (and understands PA design - this isn't my field) have any ideas for improving the linearity of the PA final stage? (Apart from adjusting bias, that is.) This would be a great experiment to try. - Jeff Brian Lloyd wrote: On Jul 8, 2008, at 12:18 PM, K6JEK wrote: It not just Jeff. I'm one of the guys who've been listening to the various audio tests. We first noticed something funny in someone else's 5000 before Jeff even got his. We ran experiment after experiment. This guy finally returned his for a refund. Then another fellow (not in the local rag chew group) broke in with his 5000 to say he's just waiting for someone to figure this out. His 5000 had the same problem. We've been listening and recording with a variety of equipment ranging from 1000's to direct conversion home brews. It is subtle. It might be rare. But it is not unique to JCA I think Jeff's nailed it. The audio up through the driver stage is perfect. It gets funky in the final. Why and what to do about it is another matter. Has anyone run single-tone and two-tone tests and looked at the distortion products? (THD and IMD). If you can hear it you can probably measure it. The spectrum will tell you something about what might be causing it. Oh, has anyone looked at the gain of the PA? If the PA uses feedback to linearize it, there may be a problem with the feedback loop and the PA may be running open-loop. -- 73 de Brian, WB6RQN Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Hi Jeff, I do not have a 5000, but it sounds as if you can set the bias on the PA transistors with software. If that is the case, have you checked that the quiescent current is really what it is supposed to be for the transistors that are in the PA. If you have more distortion at lower drive levels, it sounds as if it could be cross over distortion which would show up more with less drive. That is corrected by biasing each transistor further into class A from class B as you probably already know. Since the problem seems to occur only on 5000's that were made before a certain date, maybe it is in the bias measuring circuitry. 73 Tom W0IVJ Jeff Anderson wrote: Hi Brian, I've run THD (on the analog signals) and IMD (on the RF signals). What I hear correlates strongly with IMD levels at lower powers (where much of our voice energy is) when compared between 5K driver, 5K final, and a 1k. Correlation does not mean causality, but...no one has yet come up with a better idea. Other notes... I recalibrated the bias and power (default bias seems to be 1.0A for the drivers and 2.0A for the finals). I can't tell if there's a change in distortion or not, but IMD did not change appreciably (a dB or so). Will listen again tomorrow - my ears are tired. Also, I tried 10-band EQ settings from Dale. No joy. Does anyone who is familiar with the 5K circuitry (and understands PA design - this isn't my field) have any ideas for improving the linearity of the PA final stage? (Apart from adjusting bias, that is.) This would be a great experiment to try. - Jeff Brian Lloyd wrote: On Jul 8, 2008, at 12:18 PM, K6JEK wrote: It not just Jeff. I'm one of the guys who've been listening to the various audio tests. We first noticed something funny in someone else's 5000 before Jeff even got his. We ran experiment after experiment. This guy finally returned his for a refund. Then another fellow (not in the local rag chew group) broke in with his 5000 to say he's just waiting for someone to figure this out. His 5000 had the same problem. We've been listening and recording with a variety of equipment ranging from 1000's to direct conversion home brews. It is subtle. It might be rare. But it is not unique to JCA I think Jeff's nailed it. The audio up through the driver stage is perfect. It gets funky in the final. Why and what to do about it is another matter. Has anyone run single-tone and two-tone tests and looked at the distortion products? (THD and IMD). If you can hear it you can probably measure it. The spectrum will tell you something about what might be causing it. Oh, has anyone looked at the gain of the PA? If the PA uses feedback to linearize it, there may be a problem with the feedback loop and the PA may be running open-loop. -- 73 de Brian, WB6RQN Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Jeff -- Is there any chance you have saved the original recordings as WAVEs, including the source files? If so, can you post them as 48kHz flac-compressed? The mp3 encoding and then re-expansion to 44.1kHz rather than 48 introduce an array of spectral distortions all on their own. 73 and thanks Frank AB2KT On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Jeff Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some friends of mine and I often meet on 80 meters to operate in wideband audio mode (4k to 5k audio) on SSB. (Yes, I know that this isn't recommended operating practice,but we do it early in the evening before the band becomes occupied, so (hopefully) we aren't bothering anyone, and it sure does sound good.) Anyway, there have been a few complaints about my audio. I've been fighting this problem since January, and I've tried a number of things to improve the audio, but nothing has helped. Neither Gerald nor John at Flex have had any luck replicating my problem - it seems I'm the only one experiencing it. Anyway - I'm at wit's end trying to figure out what the heck is going on, and so I thought I'd try the massive brain power on the reflector to see if anyone here might have any ideas. I'm open to all suggestions! To get an idea of what I'm experiencing, you can go to my Blog. The URL is: http://k6jca.blogspot.com/ There are three different audio tests. If you could, please take a listen. Is there distortion, or am I imagining things? If you do hear distortion, any ideas of what to do? Suggestions, advice, and comments are welcome! And by the way, if any of you run a Heil PR-40 directly into your Flex, what settings for TX EQ do you use? Thanks! - Jeff, k6jca ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ -- Sapristi nabolis! -- Count Jim Moriarty ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
I was tuning the low end of 75 the other night and came to the conclusion we replaced a empty CW band with an empty SSB band. I think any activity is warranted. 73 W9OY ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Hi Frank, Thanks for the reply! I can probably post any sort of format, but you may have to help me out a bit - I don't know what flac-compression is. The original Flex WAV files (recorded at 96 ksps) are on the order of 10 MB each. To get them down to a reasonable size and to record two files side-by-side (because it makes comparisons much easier), I played both back (using the Playback feature of the Flex WAVE tab) through the Edirol FA66 on one of my SDR-1000's. I connected the FA66's analog output to the analog input of my Delta-44 on the computer I use with my other SDR-1000 (via a patch cable), and I recorded them using the free version of Audacity. The record sample rate was set to 44.1 KHz. I then used Audacity to edit out some of the silence time between the two recordings, and I converted the file to an MP3 using their recommended mp3 plug-in. Audacity can also export as a WAV file (although I've never tried this), and I can change its sample rate to 48K. Would something like this be acceptable? (And is flac-compression an option for WAV file generation?) Or I could post the original Flex WAV files - zipping them up will reduce their size somewhat, but they'll still be HUGE. The advantage, though, is that there won't be any distortion introduced by this process, and anyone can listen to them (as long as they have a Flex radio) in their full, 96 ksps glory. By the way - I should mention that the mp3 files that I posted sound surprisingly similar to the original files (to me at least - I can't tell any difference), but I'd be happy to try something else. Thanks again, and 73! - Jeff, k6jca P.S. I'll be away from the computer for awhile. Will hope to respond later this evening... Frank Brickle wrote: Jeff -- Is there any chance you have saved the original recordings as WAVEs, including the source files? If so, can you post them as 48kHz flac-compressed? The mp3 encoding and then re-expansion to 44.1kHz rather than 48 introduce an array of spectral distortions all on their own. 73 and thanks Frank AB2KT On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Jeff Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some friends of mine and I often meet on 80 meters to operate in wideband audio mode (4k to 5k audio) on SSB. (Yes, I know that this isn't recommended operating practice,but we do it early in the evening before the band becomes occupied, so (hopefully) we aren't bothering anyone, and it sure does sound good.) Anyway, there have been a few complaints about my audio. I've been fighting this problem since January, and I've tried a number of things to improve the audio, but nothing has helped. Neither Gerald nor John at Flex have had any luck replicating my problem - it seems I'm the only one experiencing it. Anyway - I'm at wit's end trying to figure out what the heck is going on, and so I thought I'd try the massive brain power on the reflector to see if anyone here might have any ideas. I'm open to all suggestions! To get an idea of what I'm experiencing, you can go to my Blog. The URL is: http://k6jca.blogspot.com/ There are three different audio tests. If you could, please take a listen. Is there distortion, or am I imagining things? If you do hear distortion, any ideas of what to do? Suggestions, advice, and comments are welcome! And by the way, if any of you run a Heil PR-40 directly into your Flex, what settings for TX EQ do you use? Thanks! - Jeff, k6jca ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz mailto:FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ -- Sapristi nabolis! -- Count Jim Moriarty ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Hi Jeff, I've heard another flex 5000 user sound like that. It has almost a digital processed type sound. A group of Flexers in my area use W2IHY Boxes for better sound, especially with the PR40 although personally I don't feel that hardware should be required to make a software radio sound better. Edwin MarzanAB2VW _ The i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
I am using the SDR1000 remotely. Made both cw and voice qsos. The delay is less than 1 second and the audio sounds slightly distorted with an occasional drop out. Pc anywhere and skype. Using VAC to handle the connections. 73 Maarten n1dz -Original Message- From: Jeff Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subj: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Date: Mon Jul 7, 2008 1:32 pm Size: 3K To: Frank Brickle [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Reflector Flex-Radio flexRadio@flex-radio.biz Hi Frank, Thanks for the reply! I can probably post any sort of format, but you may have to help me out a bit - I don't know what flac-compression is. The original Flex WAV files (recorded at 96 ksps) are on the order of 10 MB each. To get them down to a reasonable size and to record two files side-by-side (because it makes comparisons much easier), I played both back (using the Playback feature of the Flex WAVE tab) through the Edirol FA66 on one of my SDR-1000's. I connected the FA66's analog output to the analog input of my Delta-44 on the computer I use with my other SDR-1000 (via a patch cable), and I recorded them using the free version of Audacity. The record sample rate was set to 44.1 KHz. I then used Audacity to edit out some of the silence time between the two recordings, and I converted the file to an MP3 using their recommended mp3 plug-in. Audacity can also export as a WAV file (although I've never tried this), and I can change its sample rate to 48K. Would something like this be acceptable? (And is flac-compression an option for WAV file generation?) Or I could post the original Flex WAV files - zipping them up will reduce their size somewhat, but they'll still be HUGE. The advantage, though, is that there won't be any distortion introduced by this process, and anyone can listen to them (as long as they have a Flex radio) in their full, 96 ksps glory. By the way - I should mention that the mp3 files that I posted sound surprisingly similar to the original files (to me at least - I can't tell any difference), but I'd be happy to try something else. Thanks again, and 73! - Jeff, k6jca P.S. I'll be away from the computer for awhile. Will hope to respond later this evening... Frank Brickle wrote: Jeff -- Is there any chance you have saved the original recordings as WAVEs, including the source files? If so, can you post them as 48kHz flac-compressed? The mp3 encoding and then re-expansion to 44.1kHz rather than 48 introduce an array of spectral distortions all on their own. 73 and thanks Frank AB2KT On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Jeff Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some friends of mine and I often meet on 80 meters to operate in wideband audio mode (4k to 5k audio) on SSB. (Yes, I know that this isn't recommended operating practice,but we do it early in the evening before the band becomes occupied, so (hopefully) we aren't bothering anyone, and it sure does sound good.) Anyway, there have been a few complaints about my audio. I've been fighting this problem since January, and I've tried a number of things to improve the audio, but nothing has helped. Neither Gerald nor John at Flex have had any luck replicating my problem - it seems I'm the only one experiencing it. Anyway - I'm at wit's end trying to figure out what the heck is going on, and so I thought I'd try the massive brain power on the reflector to see if anyone here might have any ideas. I'm open to all suggestions! To get an idea of what I'm experiencing, you can go to my Blog. The URL is: http://k6jca.blogspot.com/ There are three different audio tests. If you could, please take a listen. Is there distortion, or am I imagining things? If you do hear distortion, any ideas of what to do? Suggestions, advice, and comments are welcome! And by the way, if any of you run a Heil PR-40 directly into your Flex, what settings for TX EQ do you use? --- message truncated --- ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
At 12:27 PM 7/7/2008, you wrote: I was tuning the low end of 75 the other night and came to the conclusion we replaced a empty CW band with an empty SSB band. I think any activity is warranted. 73 W9OY I have always wondered when I read articles talking about crowded conditions on 75M, my experience from the central part of the country is that while there are usually quite a few QSO's and nets going on for the most part the band is mostly empty space. Cecil K5NWA www.softrockradio.org www.qrpradio.com Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Are you talking about the distortion that's inherent in the 5000 ? I've heard that it's a problem with the DAC in the soundcard. I don't believe the 5000 will be an audio aficionados radio in it's present state. The 1000 doesn't seem to have this problem (at least not with the firebox or fa66) I've seen guys with 1000's run computer mics and make them sound like a million bucks. You can't do that with the 5000. On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 08:42 -0700, Jeff Anderson wrote: Some friends of mine and I often meet on 80 meters to operate in wideband audio mode (4k to 5k audio) on SSB. (Yes, I know that this isn't recommended operating practice,but we do it early in the evening before the band becomes occupied, so (hopefully) we aren't bothering anyone, and it sure does sound good.) Anyway, there have been a few complaints about my audio. I've been fighting this problem since January, and I've tried a number of things to improve the audio, but nothing has helped. Neither Gerald nor John at Flex have had any luck replicating my problem - it seems I'm the only one experiencing it. Anyway - I'm at wit's end trying to figure out what the heck is going on, and so I thought I'd try the massive brain power on the reflector to see if anyone here might have any ideas. I'm open to all suggestions! To get an idea of what I'm experiencing, you can go to my Blog. The URL is: http://k6jca.blogspot.com/ There are three different audio tests. If you could, please take a listen. Is there distortion, or am I imagining things? If you do hear distortion, any ideas of what to do? Suggestions, advice, and comments are welcome! And by the way, if any of you run a Heil PR-40 directly into your Flex, what settings for TX EQ do you use? Thanks! - Jeff, k6jca ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
http://flac.sourceforge.net/ ARRL SDR Working Group Chair, AMSAT VP Engineering. Member: ARRL, AMSAT, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. Trample the slow Hurdle the dead -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Anderson Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 1:31 PM To: Frank Brickle Cc: Reflector Flex-Radio Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Hi Frank, Thanks for the reply! I can probably post any sort of format, but you may have to help me out a bit - I don't know what flac-compression is. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
I completely disagree. I have both radios, and the TX from both sounds superb using the Behringer UB-802 as a mic preamp only (no EQ) into the Line In on the 5K, and the Heil PR-40, with the EQ handled by PowerSDR. A few seconds listening to John, W5GI on his FLEX-5000 might convince you... 73, Dale WA8SRA Jimmy Jones wrote: Are you talking about the distortion that's inherent in the 5000 ? I've heard that it's a problem with the DAC in the soundcard. I don't believe the 5000 will be an audio aficionados radio in it's present state. The 1000 doesn't seem to have this problem (at least not with the firebox or fa66) I've seen guys with 1000's run computer mics and make them sound like a million bucks. You can't do that with the 5000. On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 08:42 -0700, Jeff Anderson wrote: Some friends of mine and I often meet on 80 meters to operate in wideband audio mode (4k to 5k audio) on SSB. (Yes, I know that this isn't recommended operating practice,but we do it early in the evening before the band becomes occupied, so (hopefully) we aren't bothering anyone, and it sure does sound good.) Anyway, there have been a few complaints about my audio. I've been fighting this problem since January, and I've tried a number of things to improve the audio, but nothing has helped. Neither Gerald nor John at Flex have had any luck replicating my problem - it seems I'm the only one experiencing it. Anyway - I'm at wit's end trying to figure out what the heck is going on, and so I thought I'd try the massive brain power on the reflector to see if anyone here might have any ideas. I'm open to all suggestions! To get an idea of what I'm experiencing, you can go to my Blog. The URL is: http://k6jca.blogspot.com/ There are three different audio tests. If you could, please take a listen. Is there distortion, or am I imagining things? If you do hear distortion, any ideas of what to do? Suggestions, advice, and comments are welcome! And by the way, if any of you run a Heil PR-40 directly into your Flex, what settings for TX EQ do you use? Thanks! - Jeff, k6jca ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Jimmy, I've used both the Delta-44 and the FA-66 with the 1000. As for the 5K, I can only judge by the ones I've heard on the air and my own, and whether I use a PR-40 or an HC5 cartridge, it sounds very good, with no trace of audible distortion. I listened to Jeff's recording and I agree that the second half of the recording sounds quite bad. I'm only saying that I have not heard that on the air, and certainly haven't heard it from my 5K. For that reason, I wouldn't expect that the problem is due to any inherent shortcoming in the DAC, or all FLEX-5000's would sound that way, and they do not. Regarding the monitoring setup, I've used the Icom 746PRO set to it's 3.6K 'Sharp' bandwidth, while monitoring the audio from the rear panel (cleaner and wider bandwidth than the headphone jack) with several pairs of headphones, including (at various times) the following models: Beyerdynamic DT-880 Beyerdynamic DT-990 Grado Labs SR125 Grado Labs SR325 The monitored audio has been very clean with all of them, with no change in character regardless of whether I run 1 watt or 100 watts. I'd be happy to set up a sked sometime to run some comparative tests. 73, Dale WA8SRA Jimmy Jones wrote: It's certainly your right to disagree Dale but I've heard the same comments from two of the best ears that I know. If they say it's distorted you can bet the house on it that it is. I'm talking about guys that tell me when I'm a 1/2 cycle off frequency and nitpick like that. I hear this same distortion in the 5000 too and my ears are terrible. I don't see it as a show stopper but it isn't flex perfect like it should be. I've seen several guys struggle to get the 5000 sounding decent (and they did eventually) The SDR 1000 on the other hand is no struggle at all to get sounding good and it doesn't have that weird distortion like the 5000. The guys that I've talked to on the 5000 that sounded good were running very ,very expensive mics. The guys running Heil mics had typical communications sounding audio and you could no doubt hear the distortion. The 1000 doesn't really care. Most any mic sounds good on the 1000. You didn't say what sound card you were running with your 1000 Dale? On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 16:03 -0400, Dale Boresz wrote: I completely disagree. I have both radios, and the TX from both sounds superb using the Behringer UB-802 as a mic preamp only (no EQ) into the Line In on the 5K, and the Heil PR-40, with the EQ handled by PowerSDR. A few seconds listening to John, W5GI on his FLEX-5000 might convince you... 73, Dale WA8SRA Jimmy Jones wrote: Are you talking about the distortion that's inherent in the 5000 ? I've heard that it's a problem with the DAC in the soundcard. I don't believe the 5000 will be an audio aficionados radio in it's present state. The 1000 doesn't seem to have this problem (at least not with the firebox or fa66) I've seen guys with 1000's run computer mics and make them sound like a million bucks. You can't do that with the 5000. On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 08:42 -0700, Jeff Anderson wrote: Some friends of mine and I often meet on 80 meters to operate in wideband audio mode (4k to 5k audio) on SSB. (Yes, I know that this isn't recommended operating practice,but we do it early in the evening before the band becomes occupied, so (hopefully) we aren't bothering anyone, and it sure does sound good.) Anyway, there have been a few complaints about my audio. I've been fighting this problem since January, and I've tried a number of things to improve the audio, but nothing has helped. Neither Gerald nor John at Flex have had any luck replicating my problem - it seems I'm the only one experiencing it. Anyway - I'm at wit's end trying to figure out what the heck is going on, and so I thought I'd try the massive brain power on the reflector to see if anyone here might have any ideas. I'm open to all suggestions! To get an idea of what I'm experiencing, you can go to my Blog. The URL is: http://k6jca.blogspot.com/ There are three different audio tests. If you could, please take a listen. Is there distortion, or am I imagining things? If you do hear distortion, any ideas of what to do? Suggestions, advice, and comments are welcome! And by the way, if any of you run a Heil PR-40 directly into your Flex, what settings for TX EQ do you use? Thanks! - Jeff, k6jca ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz mailto:FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Jeff, a couple questions. What version of the code are you running? Have you tried different versions to see if it affects the sound? If you back off the mike gain does it still sound grainy? Are you feeding the 5000 output into a dummy load for your recording? Have you tried it on a different band to see if it's RF? The third recording sounds slightly better then the first two when you back away from the mic. My 1KSDR had this problem until I added an EQplus in front of it. Working with Julius (W2IHY), I knew this was RF but I couldn't get rid of it. Maybe I didn't have the correct ferrite beads or bypassing. But adding the EQplus fixed it for me. I also use a PR40 and my shack is directly under my W5GI antenna. As a side note, if you are ever looking for software to measure THD, I use the following from www.ymec.com. They have a 30 trial that you could measure THD with. Since this is amateur equipment and not commercial grade I have not done this with my radio gear but I might be a fun test. Jerry, WB0UZW -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Anderson Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 10:43 AM To: Reflector Flex-Radio Subject: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please! Some friends of mine and I often meet on 80 meters to operate in wideband audio mode (4k to 5k audio) on SSB. (Yes, I know that this isn't recommended operating practice,but we do it early in the evening before the band becomes occupied, so (hopefully) we aren't bothering anyone, and it sure does sound good.) Anyway, there have been a few complaints about my audio. I've been fighting this problem since January, and I've tried a number of things to improve the audio, but nothing has helped. Neither Gerald nor John at Flex have had any luck replicating my problem - it seems I'm the only one experiencing it. Anyway - I'm at wit's end trying to figure out what the heck is going on, and so I thought I'd try the massive brain power on the reflector to see if anyone here might have any ideas. I'm open to all suggestions! To get an idea of what I'm experiencing, you can go to my Blog. The URL is: http://k6jca.blogspot.com/ There are three different audio tests. If you could, please take a listen. Is there distortion, or am I imagining things? If you do hear distortion, any ideas of what to do? Suggestions, advice, and comments are welcome! And by the way, if any of you run a Heil PR-40 directly into your Flex, what settings for TX EQ do you use? Thanks! - Jeff, k6jca ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Thanks to everyone for their replies and suggestions. To answer some of the questions I've received... 1. I've run IMD tests on both the 1K and the 5K and at various powers (3 dB steps). 2. The problem seems to be independent of code version. 3. All tests are made into a dummy load. 4. The PR-40 is connected directly to the Balanced Line In of the 5K. 5. I don't run the compandor or compressor. And I keep the mic signal below 0 dB. 6. I don't believe it's a problem with mic gain, or rf feedback into the mic, or something else in the input stages. I believe that my third recording (the July 6 recording) bears out this conclusion. If I listen to the signal at the TX Driver output, it sounds fine to me - if there was any sort of problem with the mic (gain or rf feedback, etc.) you'd hear it here, too, because we're well past the mic input circuits. But I don't hear any noticable distortion at this stage. It's only after the *next* stage in the TX chain, at the PA output, that I hear the distortion - that is, the second half of the third recording (this audible distortion correlates well with the differences between driver stage IMD and final stage IMD). Why do I have a problem and others (such as Dale) don't? Is there something wrong with the way I'm testing this? Is there something in my voice timbre that's not in other voices and that exacerbates this problem? Is it something else? I've no idea. Dale sent a screenshot of his eq settings. I'll give these a try tomorrow... Keep those suggestions coming! Thanks again for your help, and 73, - Jeff, k6jca ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 6:46 PM, Jeff Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 5. I don't run the compandor or compressor. And I keep the mic signal below 0 dB. Regardless, there's about 6dB of compression on the distorted versions, in all three runs. It's impossible to miss if you look at spectrograms of corresponding high-amplitude vowel segments in each half. That is *not* present on a typical F5K, and you can be sure it has nothing to do with the D/A/D components. 73 Frank AB2KT -- Sapristi nabolis! -- Count Jim Moriarty ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
Jeff, FWIW, I was never able to make the balanced input work with my PR-40. I always ended up with extra grunge in the audio. When I use the standard microphone input on the front panel it worked much better, but the arrangement that produces the best audio for me is to use the Line In jack on the rear panel in conjunction with a mic preamp. I like the idea of driving the radio with a larger amplitude low source impedance than with a higher impedance very small signal (like the direct output of the microphone). Dale Jeff Anderson wrote: Thanks to everyone for their replies and suggestions. To answer some of the questions I've received... 1. I've run IMD tests on both the 1K and the 5K and at various powers (3 dB steps). 2. The problem seems to be independent of code version. 3. All tests are made into a dummy load. 4. The PR-40 is connected directly to the Balanced Line In of the 5K. 5. I don't run the compandor or compressor. And I keep the mic signal below 0 dB. 6. I don't believe it's a problem with mic gain, or rf feedback into the mic, or something else in the input stages. I believe that my third recording (the July 6 recording) bears out this conclusion. If I listen to the signal at the TX Driver output, it sounds fine to me - if there was any sort of problem with the mic (gain or rf feedback, etc.) you'd hear it here, too, because we're well past the mic input circuits. But I don't hear any noticable distortion at this stage. It's only after the *next* stage in the TX chain, at the PA output, that I hear the distortion - that is, the second half of the third recording (this audible distortion correlates well with the differences between driver stage IMD and final stage IMD). Why do I have a problem and others (such as Dale) don't? Is there something wrong with the way I'm testing this? Is there something in my voice timbre that's not in other voices and that exacerbates this problem? Is it something else? I've no idea. Dale sent a screenshot of his eq settings. I'll give these a try tomorrow... Keep those suggestions coming! Thanks again for your help, and 73, - Jeff, k6jca ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
To answer some recent questions... Frank, I agree, I'm sure the distortion is not in the ADC/DAC components (nor software, nor input stages) either, because I don't hear it at the 5K PA's *driver stage* output, which is well after the output DAC (ref: 1st half of 6 July recording). The problem only pops up at the output of the *final* stage. And this is why (per Dale's comment) I don't think it's a problem with the balanced line input. If this input was causing the audio to sound grundgy, then I'd expect to hear it at the PA Driver stage, too (1st half of 6 July recording). But I don't. (But maybe I'm missing something really obvious, or doing something wrong. Suggestions?). Per Jim - this 5K (my second one) is right out of the box, and I didn't recal PA bias (I shouldn't have to, right?). By the way, I had this exact same problem with my first 5K, too, and I could not fix the problem despite numerous bias recalibrations as well as experiments with various bias settings, so I'm skeptical that recalibrating bias will have any appreciable effect. Still, it wouldn't hurt to give it a try. I'll try to get to this tomorrow. Thanks again! - Jeff ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Jeff Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank, I agree, I'm sure the distortion is not in the ADC/DAC components (nor software, nor input stages) either, because I don't hear it at the 5K PA's *driver stage* output, which is well after the output DAC (ref: 1st half of 6 July recording). The problem only pops up at the output of the *final* stage. What's peculiar about the compression is that it's soft, not clipped. You have to wonder about the leveler settings. 73 Frank AB2KT -- Sapristi nabolis! -- Count Jim Moriarty ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] TX Audio Quality Help, please!
I agree, it's peculiar. But again - if it's a leveler issue (i.e. software) I'd expect to hear it at the PA driver, too. But I don't (but perhaps others do? Ref: 1st half of 6 July test). By the way, I just checked, and the Leveler has been OFF (box not checked) for all of my tests. The only TX effect I have enabled is TX EQ, which is set to the same EQ values for all of my tests. What I wonder is this: can distortion at RF (rather than at AF) have this same soft compression effect, after the RF is demodulated? - Jeff Frank Brickle wrote: On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Jeff Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank, I agree, I'm sure the distortion is not in the ADC/DAC components (nor software, nor input stages) either, because I don't hear it at the 5K PA's *driver stage* output, which is well after the output DAC (ref: 1st half of 6 July recording). The problem only pops up at the output of the *final* stage. What's peculiar about the compression is that it's soft, not clipped. You have to wonder about the leveler settings. 73 Frank AB2KT -- Sapristi nabolis! -- Count Jim Moriarty ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
