[Flightgear-devel] MD-11 is slow (was FlightGear startup time)

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

On May 24, 2005 07:45 am, Melchior FRANZ wrote:
 for (3): use as few textures as possible; You can:
          - edit material.xml and let it share textures (only one wood
 texture) or start fgfs in the desert :-)
          - use aircraft with few and small textures (hint: avoid the MD-11
 :-) - scale down textures
          But all that makes the scenery uglier and is probably not what you
 want. The gain is probably not worth it, anyway.

Sorry about that. =(

I will do an update soon, which will include:
* down sizing the textures
* eliminating the LOD's
* directories and files restructuring
* landing gear animations
* a more complete cockpit model.
* possibility of a better 3D model for the aircraft

But first, I will need to finish these monstrous scripts for the A380.

Your help in speeding up this process will be most welcome though. =)



Ampere

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Animations

[Durk Talsma]

Okay, these animations all work nicely now. 

 The attachment contains what I have done so far.  Control surfaces that are
 working are the ailerons, flaps and spoilers.  Control surfaces that aren't
 working are the elevators and I can use some help with them.  I have put
 off doing the rudders until the textures are done.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Animations

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

Do the elevators and the trim works for you?

Regards,
Ampere

On May 24, 2004 02:34 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:
 Okay, these animations all work nicely now.

  The attachment contains what I have done so far.  Control surfaces that
  are working are the ailerons, flaps and spoilers.  Control surfaces that
  aren't working are the elevators and I can use some help with them.  I
  have put off doing the rudders until the textures are done.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Animations

[Durk Talsma]

Hmm, actually, it's kinda funny. I was originally only confirming your 
observation that ailerons, flaps and spoilers were animating correcty on a 
different system. But your question triggered my curiosity, and I decided to 
explore the 3ds file a litte bit. I found that the objects named Elevator01H 
through Elevator06H didn't exist in the 3ds file I downloaded. So I changed 
the object name in the md11.xml file to remove the trailing 'H' and now 
elevator animation also works on my side. :-) So, you might want to check the 
names of the elevator objects in your model file. Remember, since I don't 
have 3d studio on my computer, the only way to examine these files is by 
dumping them to a console and make use to the standard unix tools (grep, cat, 
less) to make sense out of them. :-)

Well, I hope this gives you a hint at the problem. 

B.t.w. by trimming, do you refer to the JSBSim ground trimming procedure? 
That's fixed on my system now, and should traverse its way into flightgear 
soon. 

Cheers,
Durk

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameElevator01/object-name
 object-nameElevator02/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/elevator-pos-norm/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m57.70729/x-m
  y-m-8.7/y-m
  z-m1.96712/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x-2.24377/x
  y4.65299/y
  z-0.63319/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameElevator05/object-name
 object-nameElevator06/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/elevator-pos-norm/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m55.46352/x-m
  y-m4.12478/y-m
  z-m1.33393/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x2.24377/x
  y4.65299/y
  z0.63319/z
 /axis
/animation



On Monday 24 May 2004 21:58, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 Do the elevators and the trim works for you?

 Regards,
 Ampere

 On May 24, 2004 02:34 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:
  Okay, these animations all work nicely now.
 
   The attachment contains what I have done so far.  Control surfaces that
   are working are the ailerons, flaps and spoilers.  Control surfaces
   that aren't working are the elevators and I can use some help with
   them.  I have put off doing the rudders until the textures are done.
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Animations

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

On May 24, 2004 04:54 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:
 Hmm, actually, it's kinda funny. I was originally only confirming your
 observation that ailerons, flaps and spoilers were animating correcty on a
 different system. But your question triggered my curiosity, and I decided
 to explore the 3ds file a litte bit. I found that the objects named
 Elevator01H through Elevator06H didn't exist in the 3ds file I downloaded.
 So I changed the object name in the md11.xml file to remove the trailing
 'H' and now elevator animation also works on my side. :-) So, you might
 want to check the names of the elevator objects in your model file.
 Remember, since I don't have 3d studio on my computer, the only way to
 examine these files is by dumping them to a console and make use to the
 standard unix tools (grep, cat, less) to make sense out of them. :-)

 Well, I hope this gives you a hint at the problem.

Strange.  I thought they are named Elevator01H, Elevator02H, etc.  I will have 
a check again.  Thanks.

 B.t.w. by trimming, do you refer to the JSBSim ground trimming procedure?
 That's fixed on my system now, and should traverse its way into flightgear
 soon.
The trimming I used in the last E-mail was referring to the elevator trimming.

By the way, how come the spoilers-position-norm and speedbrake-position-norm 
properties aren't used?  What is the difference between the two anyway?

Regards,
Ampere

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Animations

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

I did a check in 3D Studio and it shows that the name of these objects does 
indeed end with an 'H'.  I re-exported the model again but these particular 
control surfaces still don't move if I refer to them as whateverH in the XML 
file.  So this prompt me to check the actual 3ds file rather than the max 
file (max file is the actual file that I work with -- a source, so to speak).  
One look at the object list and I know why we have this missing H problem -- 
3ds only allows a name of ten characters, and Elevator01H has eleven 
characters.

Sorry for the inconvience.

Regards,
Ampere

On May 24, 2004 09:05 pm, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 On May 24, 2004 04:54 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:
  Hmm, actually, it's kinda funny. I was originally only confirming your
  observation that ailerons, flaps and spoilers were animating correcty on
  a different system. But your question triggered my curiosity, and I
  decided to explore the 3ds file a litte bit. I found that the objects
  named Elevator01H through Elevator06H didn't exist in the 3ds file I
  downloaded. So I changed the object name in the md11.xml file to remove
  the trailing 'H' and now elevator animation also works on my side. :-)
  So, you might want to check the names of the elevator objects in your
  model file. Remember, since I don't have 3d studio on my computer, the
  only way to examine these files is by dumping them to a console and make
  use to the standard unix tools (grep, cat, less) to make sense out of
  them. :-)
 
  Well, I hope this gives you a hint at the problem.

 Strange.  I thought they are named Elevator01H, Elevator02H, etc.  I will
 have a check again.  Thanks.

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[Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Animations

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

Sorry for taking so long.  I have been messing around with the model to make 
it more accurate.  I have removed some parts for now, so don't be surprise if 
you find the engines are missing.

The attachment contains what I have done so far.  Control surfaces that are 
working are the ailerons, flaps and spoilers.  Control surfaces that aren't 
working are the elevators and I can use some help with them.  I have put off 
doing the rudders until the textures are done.

Download the latest model from http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/MD-11.3ds 
before testing out the animations.

Regards,
Ampere
?xml version=1.0?

PropertyList

 pathMD-11.3ds/path
 offsets
   z-m0/z-m
   x-m-25/x-m
   pitch-deg-0.5/pitch-deg
 /offsets
!-- Primary flight controls --
animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameAileron01H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/left-aileron-pos-norm/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m42.26176/x-m
  y-m-22.81146/y-m
  z-m-0.27968/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x-2.44019/x
  y4.48862/y
  z-0.22936/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameAileron02H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/left-aileron-pos-norm/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m35.10918/x-m
  y-m-9.47449/y-m
  z-m-0.83642/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x-0.3033/x
  y2.08499/y
  z-0.42945/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameAileron03H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/right-aileron-pos-norm/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m34.80588/x-m
  y-m7.3895/y-m
  z-m-1.26586/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x0.3033/x
  y2.08499/y
  z0.42945/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameAileron04H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/right-aileron-pos-norm/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m39.82157/x-m
  y-m18.32285/y-m
  z-m-0.50904/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x2.44019/x
  y4.48862/y
  z0.22936/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameElevator01H/object-name
 object-nameElevator02H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/elevator-pos-norm/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m57.70729/x-m
  y-m-8.7/y-m
  z-m1.96712/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x-2.24377/x
  y4.65299/y
  z-0.63319/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameElevator05H/object-name
 object-nameElevator06H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/elevator-pos-norm/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m55.46352/x-m
  y-m4.12478/y-m
  z-m1.33393/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x2.24377/x
  y4.65299/y
  z0.63319/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameStabilizer01H/object-name
 object-nameElevator02H/object-name
 propertycontrols/flight/elevator-trim/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m57.70729/x-m
  y-m-8.7/y-m
  z-m1.96712/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x-2.24377/x
  y4.65299/y
  z-0.63319/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameStabilizer03H/object-name
 object-nameElevator02H/object-name
 propertycontrols/flight/elevator-trim/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m55.46352/x-m
  y-m4.12478/y-m
  z-m1.33393/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x2.24377/x
  y4.65299/y
  z0.63319/z
 /axis
/animation

!-- Rudder - to be implemented after texturing --

!-- Secondary flight controls --

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameUFlap01H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/flap-pos-norm/property
 factor15/factor
 center
  x-m38.58112/x-m
  y-m-16.22452/y-m
  z-m-1.68404/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x-1.98872/x
  y3.84307/y
  z-0.41423/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameLFlap01H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/flap-pos-norm/property
 factor45/factor
 center
  x-m38.58112/x-m
  y-m-16.22452/y-m
  z-m-1.68404/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x-1.98872/x
  y3.84307/y
  z-0.41423/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameUFlap02H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/flap-pos-norm/property
 factor15/factor
 center
  x-m34.22152/x-m
  y-m-6.50735/y-m
  z-m-2.74041/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x-0.63055/x
  y4.3795/y
  z-0.87413/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameLFlap02H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/flap-pos-norm/property
 factor45/factor
 center
  x-m34.22152/x-m
  y-m-6.50735/y-m
  z-m-2.74041/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x-0.63055/x
  y4.3795/y
  z-0.87413/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameUFlap03H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/flap-pos-norm/property
 factor15/factor
 center
  x-m33.5.9096/x-m
  y-m2.12785/y-m
  z-m-3.61455/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x0.63055/x
  y4.3795/y
  z0.87413/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameLFlap03H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/flap-pos-norm/property
 factor45/factor
 center
  x-m33.5.9096/x-m
  y-m2.12785/y-m
  z-m-3.61455/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x0.63055/x
  y4.3795/y
  z0.87413/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameUFlap04H/object-name
 propertysurface-positions/flap-pos-norm/property
 factor15/factor
 center
  x-m36.5924/x-m
  y-m12.38145/y-m
  z-m-2.09828/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x1.98872/x
  y3.84307/y
  z0.41423/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 

Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 cockpit

[Manuel Bessler]

Hi Innis,

On Mon, 17 May 2004 10:13:25 +0800
Innis Cunningham wrote:

 When doing my B717, I used qcad to measure things from these
 drawings. Like engine placement, pilot viewpoint and also got me
 started with the 3D model (which isn't finished yet, so if someone
 wants to finish the 3D model... raise your hand :-)
 The jsbsim aero file should be quite flyable.
 
 so... any takers for the 3D model ? Its in Blender format.

 You can send it to me but I doubt I would get to it for a
 month or so till I am finished what I am currently working on.
 If you send it could you send it in AC3D(prefered) or DXF.

Its available here:
http://cockpit.varxec.de/fgfs/fgfs_717-200_71.blend.gz   
(just the blenderfile, gzipped)

http://cockpit.varxec.de/fgfs/fgfs_717-200.tar.bz2
(fdm, engine config, and 3d model in .ac format)

Note that I haven't touched the model since September... so the JSBSim
configs will have to be converted to the new format. The directory
layout may also have to be changed. 

I currently don't have a recent flightgear checkout (my computer needs
updating in the hardware area as well to allow me to enjoy flightgear
again), so I can't do much right now.

Most of my free time is currently going into PHCC, my home cockpit
interface project for flightgear: http://cockpit.varxec.de/PHCC.html
(If you are more interested in this project, join the sim-hardware list:
http://m18s17.vlinux.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sim-hardware )


Innis and Ampere,
thanks for taking a look at my model...

Manuel

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 cockpit

[Manuel Bessler]

On Sat, May 15, 2004 at 07:09:21PM -0400, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 I have been doing some hunting lately; namely, looking for information 
 regarding the MD-11's flightdeck: dimensions, layout, technical diagrams, 
 etc.  I have tried many search keywords on the Internet, my local library, as 
 well as my university's library.  So far, I have no luck.

Have you checked this page:
http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/aircompat/3d_view.html

It contains .dxf drawings of the different Boeings (and MD/DCs)

When doing my B717, I used qcad to measure things from these drawings.
Like engine placement, pilot viewpoint and also got me started with 
the 3D model (which isn't finished yet, so if someone wants to finish
the 3D model... raise your hand :-)
The jsbsim aero file should be quite flyable. 

so... any takers for the 3D model ? Its in Blender format.


Regards,
Manuel

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 cockpit

[Innis Cunningham]

Hi Manuel
Manuel Bessler Writes
When doing my B717, I used qcad to measure things from these drawings.
Like engine placement, pilot viewpoint and also got me started with
the 3D model (which isn't finished yet, so if someone wants to finish
the 3D model... raise your hand :-)
The jsbsim aero file should be quite flyable.
so... any takers for the 3D model ? Its in Blender format.
You can send it to me but I doubt I would get to it for a
month or so till I am finished what I am currently working on.
If you send it could you send it in AC3D(prefered) or DXF.

Regards,
Manuel
Cheers
Innis
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 cockpit

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

 Have you checked this page:
 http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/aircompat/3d_view.html

 It contains .dxf drawings of the different Boeings (and MD/DCs)

A GOLD MINE!

I searched high and low and I have never found stuff like that... and it is so 
close too!  I visit the Boeing's website practically everyday!

With the DXF files, I can do some shape merging in 3D Studio and get a 100% 
accurate model!

 When doing my B717, I used qcad to measure things from these drawings.
 Like engine placement, pilot viewpoint and also got me started with
 the 3D model (which isn't finished yet, so if someone wants to finish
 the 3D model... raise your hand :-)
 The jsbsim aero file should be quite flyable.

 so... any takers for the 3D model ? Its in Blender format.

I wouldn't mind taking a look at it, although I will have to finish the MD-11 
first.  That may take a while.

Thanks,
Ampere

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[Flightgear-devel] MD-11 cockpit

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

I have been doing some hunting lately; namely, looking for information 
regarding the MD-11's flightdeck: dimensions, layout, technical diagrams, 
etc.  I have tried many search keywords on the Internet, my local library, as 
well as my university's library.  So far, I have no luck.

I was wondering if anyone knows where I can find the above information.

Regards,
Ampere

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 cockpit

[Chris Metzler]

On Sat, 15 May 2004 19:09:21 -0400
Ampere K. Hardraade [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I have been doing some hunting lately; namely, looking for information 
 regarding the MD-11's flightdeck: dimensions, layout, technical
 diagrams, etc.  I have tried many search keywords on the Internet, my
 local library, as well as my university's library.  So far, I have no
 luck.
 
 I was wondering if anyone knows where I can find the above information.

I can't help you with dimensions or technical diagrams or stuff like that.
But since you included layout, and said you've had no luck, did you try
a Google Images search?  I know that images of the panel are not as
useful as detailed layout info; but hey, better than nothing.  Through a
Google Images search, I got some panel images that way; to whit,

http://agrosz.com/md11/gallery/cockpit1large.jpg
http://agrosz.com/md11/gallery/cockpit2large.jpg
http://agrosz.com/md11/gallery/cockpit3large.jpg
http://agrosz.com/md11/gallery/cockpit4large.jpg

Also, going here:

http://airliners.net/search/

and doing a search on McDonnell Douglass MD-11 as the Aircraft Type,
and Flight Decks (Cockpits) as the Category, got me 127 different MD-11
cockpit photos, including close-ups of various parts of the hardware.

Here's an (unfortunately fairly small) diagram of the captain's
panel:

http://www.si-properties.com/sat98/images/news_16-10-98_cockpit.jpg

Here are some other photos that maybe useful:

tttp://www.thaiops.com/images/tcas1.jpg
http://www.thaiops.com/images/tcas2.jpg
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/media/photo_database/A98H0003/md_11/md11_5.asp
http://www.lindauer-fly.ch/ck_swiss_md11.htm

These people, for $25, seem to sell a poster that reproduces the
cockpit instrumentation layout in detail:

http://www.avsoft.net/md%2011%20stuff.htm

I hope some of this is helpful.

-c


-- 
Chris Metzler   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(remove snip-me. to email)

As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I
have become civilized. - Chief Luther Standing Bear


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

Sorry for the delay.  Some control surfaces don't look right since the 
beginning, so I had to redo them.  Figuring out what to do took me one day; 
actually doing it and doing measurments took a day; doing the script took 
another.

The script is in the lower half section of this E-mail.  Download the latest 
version of the mesh at http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/MD-11.3ds first.

It will be a good idea for you guys to send me whatever you have so far.  It 
will be easier for me to refine the animations this way.

Regards,
Ampere

UFlap01, LFlap01
pass through:
[38.988666,16.250,-2.16]
[36.902069,12.0,-2.42]
displacement in vector:
[-2.086597,-4.25,-0.26]

UFlap02, LFlap02
pass through:
[34.325,6.50,-3.12]
[33.433798,2.276997,-4.039153]
displacement in vector:
[-0.891202,-4.223003,-0.919153]

UFlap03, LFlap03
pass through:
[33.433798,2.276997,-4.039153]
[34.325,-6.50,-3.12]
displacement in vector:
[0.891202,4.223003,0.919153]

UFlap04, LFlap04
pass through:
[36.902069,-12.0,-2.42]
[38.988666,-16.250,-2.16]
displacement in vector:
[2.086597,4.25,0.26]

Spoiler01, Spoiler02, Spoiler03, Spoiler04
pass through:
[39.43583,17.90,-0.648207]
[35.511719,9.873492,-0.898592]
diplacement in vector:
[-3.924111,-8.026508,-0.250385]

Spoiler05
passes through:
[34.294122,7.233,-1.149238]
[33.402924,3.01,-1.903888]
displacement in vector:
[-0.891198,-4.223,-0.75465]

Spoiler06
passes through:
[-33.402924,-3.01,-1.903888]
[-34.294122,-7.233,-1.149238]
displacement in vector:
[0.891198,4.223,0.75465]

Spoiler07, Spoiler08, Spoiler09, Spoiler10
pass through:
[35.511719,-9.873492,-0.898592]
[39.43583,-17.90,-0.648207]
diplacement in vector:
[3.924111,8.026508,0.250385]

Elevator01, Elevator02
pass through:
[57.523126,8.8182,2.120778]
[53.016528,0,0.81]
displacement in vector:
[-4.506598,-8.8182,-1.310778]

Elevator03, Elevator04
pass through:
[53.016528,0,0.81]
[57.523126,-8.8182,2.120778]
displacement in vector:
[4.506598,8.8182,1.310778]

Aileron01
passes through:
[42.583707,23.00,-0.628797]
[39.943802,18.10,-0.793894]
displacement in vector:
[-2.639905,-4.9,-0.165097]

Aileron02
passes through:
[35.295001,9.10,-1.094963]
[34.9.00995,7.233,-1.455891]
displacement in vector:
[-0.395001,-1.867,-0.360928]

Aileron03
passes through:
[34.9.00995,-7.233,-1.455891]
[35.295001,-9.10,-1.094963]
displacement in vector:
[0.395001,1.867,0.360928]

Aileron04
passes through:
[-39.943802,-18.10,-0.793894]
[-42.583707,-23.00,-0.628797]
displacement in vector:
[2.639905,4.9,0.165097]

Fan01
passes through:
[26.981256,8.20,-2.89]
displacement in vector:
[1,0,0]

Fan02
passes through:
[61.6,0,3.680]
[55.3745,0,4.066549]
displacement in vector:
[-6.2255,0,0.386549]

Fan03
passes through:
[26.981256,-8.20,-2.89]
displacement in vector:
[1,0,0]

Slat01
passes through:
[41.135202,24.254921,-3.827834]
[29.322235,8.45,-4.019306]
displacement in vector:
[-11.812967,-15.804921,-0.191472]

Slat 02
passes through:
[28.937213,79.50,-4.026289]
displacement in vector:
[0,1,0]

Slat 03
passes through:
[28.937213,-79.50,-4.026289]
displacement in vector:
[0,1,0]

Slat04
passes through:
[41.135202,-24.254921,-3.827834]
[29.322235,-8.45,-4.019306]
displacement in vector:
[11.812967,15.804921,0.191472]

URudder, LRudder
pass through:
[54.3,0,6.25]
[58.3,0,12.24]
displacement in vector:
[4,0,5.99]



*


!-- Primary flight controls --

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameAileron01H/object-name
 propertycontrols/flight/aileron/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m42.584/x-m
  y-m23.0/y-m
  z-m-0.629/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x-2.640/x
  y-4.90/y
  z-0.165/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameAileron02H/object-name
 propertycontrols/flight/aileron/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m35.295/x-m
  y-m9.10/y-m
  z-m-1.095/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x-0.395/x
  y-1.867/y
  z-0.361/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameAileron03H/object-name
 propertycontrols/flight/aileron/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m-34.901/x-m
  y-m-7.233/y-m
  z-m-1.456/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x0.395/x
  y1.867/y
  z0.361/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameAileron04H/object-name
 propertycontrols/flight/aileron/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m-39.944/x-m
  y-m-18.10/y-m
  z-m-0.794/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x2.640/x
  y4.90/y
  z0.165/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameElevator01H/object-name
 object-nameElevator02H/object-name
 propertycontrols/flight/elevator/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m57.523/x-m
  y-m8.818/y-m
  z-m2.121/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x-4.507/x
  y-8.818/y
  z-1.311/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameElevator03H/object-name
 object-nameElevator04H/object-name
 propertycontrols/flight/elevator/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m53.017/x-m
  y-m0.0/y-m
  z-m0.81/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x4.507/x
  y8.818/y
  z1.311/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameURudderH/object-name
 

Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Durk Talsma]

Hi Ampere,

I just tried your animation file. All I had to change were the lines that read  
property/controls/rudder/property to
property/controls/flight/rudder/property
and then I saw a nicely animated rudder appearing. 


 Weird how the X-axis runs lengthwise in FlightGear, while the Y-axis runs
 sideway.

IIRC, this is a know problem  of the plib 3ds model read function. We could 
have rotated the 3ds model by 90 degs in FlightGear's md11.xml file, so that 
the model would still have used the X-axis is front to back convention. 

Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Innis Cunningham]

Hi Ampere
If I gave the impression that I wanted to do some or all
of the animations that was not my intention.
I just ran a bit of animation code to see if FG had any
problems reading 3DS scripts and it did not.
I put the code below into the animation file and it
seems to work fine if that is any help to you.
As you seem to have it well under control I will leave it
in your capable hands.
Cheers
Innis
Ampere K. Hardraade writes
Okay, let try something simple first.
URudder and LRudder pass through the following coordinates:
[54.3,0,6.25] [58.3,0,12.24]
Displacement of the two points in vector is:
[4,0,5.99]
I believe the XML will be this:
animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameURudder/object-name
 property/controls/rudder/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m54.30/x-m
  y-m0.0/y-m
  z-m6.25/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x4.0/x
  y0.0/y
  z5.99/z
 /axis
/animation
animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameLRudder/object-name
 property/controls/rudder/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m54.30/x-m
  y-m0.0/y-m
  z-m6.25/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x4.0/x
  y0.0/y
  z5.99/z
 /axis
/animation
Weird how the X-axis runs lengthwise in FlightGear, while the Y-axis runs
sideway.
Regards,
Ampere

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Durk Talsma]

On Tuesday 11 May 2004 08:31, Innis Cunningham wrote:
 Well Ampere the good news is that FG is quite happy
 to animate using the 3DS file.

Another piece of good news is that the ground trimming problems have been 
solved by Mathias Frolich. His proposed solution is currently under 
investigation by Tony Peden and will hopefully traverse it's way from JSBSim 
cvs to FlightGear cvs wthin the next few days/weeks.

Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Gerhard Wesp]

On Tue, May 11, 2004 at 07:04:03PM -0400, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 Weird how the X-axis runs lengthwise in FlightGear, while the Y-axis runs 
 sideway.

No, that's not weird, that's standard in aeronautical engineering!
(with the z-axis pointing down, btw.)

Cheers,
-Gerhard
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Erik Hofman]

Durk Talsma wrote:
Hi Ampere,

I just tried your animation file. All I had to change were the lines
that read property/controls/rudder/property to 
property/controls/flight/rudder/property and then I saw a nicely
animated rudder appearing.
Just a heads up for every body again, Don't add the leading slash to the
animation property (property/controls/flight/rudder/property) but
use relative paths instead (propertycontrols/flight/rudder/property)
This allows the AIModel code to animate the model based on the property 
system for the particular AIModel rather than for the main aircraft 
(controlled by the user).

Since the AIModel code will probably be used for ATC models and by the 
multiplayer code in the future this will give a much nicer view.

For one thing that would mean that if the users extends the gear, all 
the AIModel will continue with gear up, instead of lowering the gear at 
the same time!

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Mathias Fröhlich]

On Mittwoch, 12. Mai 2004 09:56, Erik Hofman wrote:
 Just a heads up for every body again, Don't add the leading slash to the
 animation property (property/controls/flight/rudder/property) but
 use relative paths instead (propertycontrols/flight/rudder/property)

 This allows the AIModel code to animate the model based on the property
 system for the particular AIModel rather than for the main aircraft
 (controlled by the user).

 Since the AIModel code will probably be used for ATC models and by the
 multiplayer code in the future this will give a much nicer view.

 For one thing that would mean that if the users extends the gear, all
 the AIModel will continue with gear up, instead of lowering the gear at
 the same time!
May be this 'do not use a leading slach' should also show up in that model 
animation HOWTO?

Greetings

Mathias

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Erik Hofman]

Mathias Fröhlich wrote:
On Mittwoch, 12. Mai 2004 09:56, Erik Hofman wrote:

Just a heads up for every body again, Don't add the leading slash to the
animation property (property/controls/flight/rudder/property) but
use relative paths instead (propertycontrols/flight/rudder/property)
This allows the AIModel code to animate the model based on the property
system for the particular AIModel rather than for the main aircraft
(controlled by the user).
Since the AIModel code will probably be used for ATC models and by the
multiplayer code in the future this will give a much nicer view.
For one thing that would mean that if the users extends the gear, all
the AIModel will continue with gear up, instead of lowering the gear at
the same time!
May be this 'do not use a leading slach' should also show up in that model 
animation HOWTO?
Yes, that would be a good idea.

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Andy Ross]

Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 Weird how the X-axis runs lengthwise in FlightGear, while the Y-axis
 runs sideway.

What convention would you have chosen? :)

Coordinate systems are like cuisines.  There's no accounting for
taste, and you can't fix things by mixing them together.

Andy

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RE: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Giles Robertson]

How often do people need to specify the state of gear etc globally? I can't, offhand, 
think of a point at which you want all the aircraft in the world how drop the gear. 
Considering this, is the typo easy enough to make that we ought to change the 
behaviour? - or is this mucking up the established system too much?

Or perhaps, /property/value should reference to the aircraft currently under user 
control, which would extend compatibility if we ever implement a 'switch which 
aircraft you are flying in mid-air' feature.

Giles Robertson

 -Original Message-
 From: Andy Ross [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 12 May 2004 14:21
 To: FlightGear developers discussions
 Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News
 
 Mathias Fröhlich wrote:
  May be this 'do not use a leading slach' should also show up in that
  model animation HOWTO?
 
 Or even generate a runtime warning during parsing.  This is a really
 easy typo to make.
 
 Andy
 
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Andy Ross]

Mathias Fröhlich wrote:
 May be this 'do not use a leading slach' should also show up in that
 model animation HOWTO?

Or even generate a runtime warning during parsing.  This is a really
easy typo to make.

Andy


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Durk Talsma]

On Wednesday 12 May 2004 16:20, Andy Ross wrote:
 Mathias Fröhlich wrote:
  May be this 'do not use a leading slach' should also show up in that
  model animation HOWTO?

 Or even generate a runtime warning during parsing.  This is a really
 easy typo to make.


I guess both are excellent ideas. I consulted David Culp's 737 config file to 
find out why the MD11 animation didn't work initially, and I didn't even spot 
the difference in leading slash between his configuration file and the 
animation section I had just I copied from Ampere's email until Erik's 
message. 

Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Erik Hofman]

Giles Robertson wrote:
How often do people need to specify the state of gear etc globally? I can't, offhand, think of a point at which you want all the aircraft in the world how drop the gear. Considering this, is the typo easy enough to make that we ought to change the behaviour? - or is this mucking up the established system too much?

Or perhaps, /property/value should reference to the aircraft currently under user control, which would extend compatibility if we ever implement a 'switch which aircraft you are flying in mid-air' feature.
The problem is that this is only required for certain parts of the 
property tree (animation and maybe sound related), but other parts of 
the property tree should be accessible globally (time, sun positions, etc).

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Tony Peden]

On Tue, 2004-05-11 at 23:16, Durk Talsma wrote:
 On Tuesday 11 May 2004 08:31, Innis Cunningham wrote:
  Well Ampere the good news is that FG is quite happy
  to animate using the 3DS file.
 
 Another piece of good news is that the ground trimming problems have been 
 solved by Mathias Frolich. His proposed solution is currently under 
 investigation by Tony Peden and will hopefully traverse it's way from JSBSim 
 cvs to FlightGear cvs wthin the next few days/weeks.

It's in JSBSim CVS now, just needs to get into FG.

 
 Cheers,
 Durk
 
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

There is no need to reposition the pivots, and I would like to avoid doing 
that if possible.

http://flightgear.org/Docs/fgfs-model-howto.html

Search for the phrase For the point through which the axis passes, you use 
the /center/x-m, /center/y-m, and /center/z-m properties to specify a 
position in meters, using the aircraft's coordinate system. 

The section shows how one can specify a point and a vector as an axis for a 
specific control surface.  I will post the information regarding the axis 
later on.

Regards,
Ampere

On May 11, 2004 02:31 am, Innis Cunningham wrote:
 Well Ampere the good news is that FG is quite happy
 to animate using the 3DS file.
 I just did a quick check using the elevator code out
 of the 737 and what was animated moved just the
 pivot point was all wrong but the surfaces moved
 ok.So what you need to do is work out the pivot
 system in 3DS and there should be no problem.

 Cheers
 Innis

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

Okay, let try something simple first.
URudder and LRudder pass through the following coordinates:
[54.3,0,6.25] [58.3,0,12.24]

Displacement of the two points in vector is:
[4,0,5.99]

I believe the XML will be this:
animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameURudder/object-name
 property/controls/rudder/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m54.30/x-m
  y-m0.0/y-m
  z-m6.25/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x4.0/x
  y0.0/y
  z5.99/z
 /axis
/animation

animation
 typerotate/type
 object-nameLRudder/object-name
 property/controls/rudder/property
 factor18/factor
 center
  x-m54.30/x-m
  y-m0.0/y-m
  z-m6.25/z-m
 /center
 axis
  x4.0/x
  y0.0/y
  z5.99/z
 /axis
/animation

Weird how the X-axis runs lengthwise in FlightGear, while the Y-axis runs 
sideway.

Regards,
Ampere


On May 11, 2004 06:11 pm, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 There is no need to reposition the pivots, and I would like to avoid doing
 that if possible.

 http://flightgear.org/Docs/fgfs-model-howto.html

 Search for the phrase For the point through which the axis passes, you use
 the /center/x-m, /center/y-m, and /center/z-m properties to specify a
 position in meters, using the aircraft's coordinate system. 

 The section shows how one can specify a point and a vector as an axis for a
 specific control surface.  I will post the information regarding the axis
 later on.

 Regards,
 Ampere

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Innis Cunningham]

Hi Guys

Ampere K. Hardraade writes

I went in to attach everything, then detach everything again so now all 
the
object's pivot align at [0,0,-5.96].  It would seem that the code that 
reads
3ds files takes the position of the objects relative to their pivot instead
of the object's true location.  Hence you see things like flaps and engines
get dislocated.  It would also seem that the code doesn't support the
mirror function.  So instead of being able to just flip one side to the
other and call it a day, I have attach everything together, and detach
everything again.
As far as I know with AC3D the objects pivot point is what FG acts on if
there is some kind of offset then maybe it won't work.
Have you tried animating your own copy Ampere.I will have a look at my copy
and see if I can get anything to work.
 
 So, the two things I don't know yet are:
 1). Can we animate a 3ds model?
I am about to find out
 2). If we need to convert to ac3d format, is there a way to retain the
 original names given to each surface or do we need to manually reinsert
 them?
Probably not.Not only do you lose the names but also the grouping.So I would
think you would need to rename and regroup everything.But I could be wrong
Cheers
Innis
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[Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Innis Cunningham]

Well Ampere the good news is that FG is quite happy
to animate using the 3DS file.
I just did a quick check using the elevator code out
of the 737 and what was animated moved just the
pivot point was all wrong but the surfaces moved
ok.So what you need to do is work out the pivot
system in 3DS and there should be no problem.
Cheers
Innis
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11 Good News

[Lee Elliott]

On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:31, Innis Cunningham wrote:
 Well Ampere the good news is that FG is quite happy
 to animate using the 3DS file.
 I just did a quick check using the elevator code out
 of the 737 and what was animated moved just the
 pivot point was all wrong but the surfaces moved
 ok.So what you need to do is work out the pivot
 system in 3DS and there should be no problem.

 Cheers
 Innis

I can confirm that .3DS models can be animated in FG, in fact I mentioned it 
in this thread just over a week ago.  Mind you, the .3DS models I originally 
did were created in Realsoft3D and then exported in .3DS format, and that 
might be why I never had any of the displacement/mirroring/pivot problems.

The object names I specified in RS3D were preserved when I exported the models 
in .3DS format and were no trouble to animate once I'd figured out the 
correct axis.

The a-10 models currently in cvs are animated and still in .3DS format - 
having a look at them might help.

LeeE

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

Hi Ampere,

I'm not sure what exactly you changed between your last two mails, but in both 
cases the MD11 model looks pretty good now. I take it that you have not 
modelled the landing gears yet?

About the control surfaces. I'm not exactly sure what the best approach will 
be. I'm pretty much a novice when it comes to aircraft modelling, so I have 
to find out a lot by trial and error. 

I know that some of the other aircraft use ac3d models, which contain named  
surfaces that can be animated by binding these names to internal properties. 
I tried converting your 3ds model to ac3d format. After the conversion I only 
saw name NoName tags, which probably indicates that the names of each 
surface is lost in the conversion, because I did see some names pop up in 
your binary 3ds file. 

So, the two things I don't know yet are:
1). Can we animate a 3ds model?
2). If we need to convert to ac3d format, is there a way to retain the  
original names given to each surface or do we need to manually reinsert them?

Is there somebody on the list who can enlighten us? I tries searching for 
documentation on the FlightGear web pages and at seedwiki.com, but to no 
avail.

Cheers,
Durk

On Saturday 08 May 2004 22:13, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 I have re-exported the model again.  It should be *bug free* now.

 When do you like to have the axis information for the control surfaces?

 Regards,
 Ampere



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

 I'm not sure what exactly you changed between your last two mails, but in
 both cases the MD11 model looks pretty good now. 
I went in to attach everything, then detach everything again so now all the 
object's pivot align at [0,0,-5.96].  It would seem that the code that reads 
3ds files takes the position of the objects relative to their pivot instead 
of the object's true location.  Hence you see things like flaps and engines 
get dislocated.  It would also seem that the code doesn't support the 
mirror function.  So instead of being able to just flip one side to the 
other and call it a day, I have attach everything together, and detach 
everything again.

 I take it that you have 
 not modelled the landing gears yet?
No, not yet.

 About the control surfaces. I'm not exactly sure what the best approach
 will be. I'm pretty much a novice when it comes to aircraft modelling, so I
 have to find out a lot by trial and error.

 I know that some of the other aircraft use ac3d models, which contain named
 surfaces that can be animated by binding these names to internal
 properties. I tried converting your 3ds model to ac3d format. After the
 conversion I only saw name NoName tags, which probably indicates that the
 names of each surface is lost in the conversion, because I did see some
 names pop up in your binary 3ds file.

 So, the two things I don't know yet are:
 1). Can we animate a 3ds model?
 2). If we need to convert to ac3d format, is there a way to retain the
 original names given to each surface or do we need to manually reinsert
 them?
I don't know the answer to these questions myself, as I am also a novice when 
it comes to modding FlightGear.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Innis Cunningham]

Hi Ampere

Ampere K. Hardraade writes

 Did you
 intend converting it to texture it??.
I can apply the textures in 3D Studio.  To be honest, I don't have much
experience on doing textures.  However, I don't think I will have much
problems creating the textures since the logo for various airlines can be
found on Google. =P
Probably better with something like Airliners.net.
Speaking of textures, what format does FlightGear support?  Must the 
textures
size be on the power of 2 (2x2, 4X4, 16X16, 32X32...) or can it be of 
random
size?
I used to be power of 2 but I can't remember if plib has been moded to 
handle other
sizes.
Thanks in Advance,
Ampere


Cheers
Innis
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Curtis L. Olson]

Frederic Bouvier wrote:

[texture dimensions]

They can be rectangular but each dimension must be a power of 2. 16x16,
16x32
or even 1x128 are ok.
 

Note that this is part of the opengl spec, and not a particular 
limitation of plib.  Some scene graph libs will silently resize textures 
to be powers of two, but that's often not what you want if you are 
trying to control image quality.

Curt.

--
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

It really got fixed this time: http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/MD-11.3ds

Sorry for the inconvinence.

Regards,
Ampere

On May 7, 2004 09:13 pm, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 Try it now: http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/MD-11.3ds

 Regards
 Ampere

 On May 7, 2004 07:23 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:
  Cool! This is a huge improvement already:
 
  http://members.chello.nl/d.talsma/md11-model-2.jpg
 
  I'm still seeing a bit of a displacement to the right on some parts. Most
  notably the wing flaps and some parts of the tail engine.
 
  Cheers,
  Durk
 
  On Friday 07 May 2004 23:29, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
   It is fixed: http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/MD-11.3ds
  
   Regards,
   Ampere
  
   On May 7, 2004 01:26 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:
Cool! Drop us a note, when you think you fixed it, and I'm sure Innis
and I are eager to compete for the next round of screenshots. :-)
   
Cheers,
Durk
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

Yes, looks really nice now. I'll try and see if I can get the view offset 
right tonight.

Cheers,
Durk

On Saturday 08 May 2004 20:38, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 It really got fixed this time: http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/MD-11.3ds

 Sorry for the inconvinence.

 Regards,
 Ampere



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

I have re-exported the model again.  It should be *bug free* now.

When do you like to have the axis information for the control surfaces?

Regards,
Ampere

On May 8, 2004 03:20 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:
 Yes, looks really nice now. I'll try and see if I can get the view offset
 right tonight.

 Cheers,
 Durk

 On Saturday 08 May 2004 20:38, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
  It really got fixed this time: http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/MD-11.3ds
 
  Sorry for the inconvinence.
 
  Regards,
  Ampere

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Innis Cunningham]

Hi Ampere
See JPG for how the MD11 appeared in FG9.2 and 9.4.
Maybe someone on the list has a simple answer.I don't
think it is anything at my end.
Cheers
Innis
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

On Friday 07 May 2004 07:56, Innis Cunningham wrote:
 Hi Ampere
 See JPG for how the MD11 appeared in FG9.2 and 9.4.
 Maybe someone on the list has a simple answer.I don't
 think it is anything at my end.


Innis,

You just beat me by about 30 seconds posting a screenshot. :-)

Anyways, here's mine...
http://members.ams.chello.nl/d.talsma/md11-model.jpg

It's my impression that some transformation paramters are not properly 
recognized in FlightGear/plib, or perhaps done in the wrong order.

Cheers,
Durk



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RE: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Richard Bytheway]

 From: Durk Talsma
 Sent: 07 May 2004 7:20 am
 To: FlightGear developers discussions
 Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11
 
 
 On Friday 07 May 2004 07:56, Innis Cunningham wrote:
  Hi Ampere
  See JPG for how the MD11 appeared in FG9.2 and 9.4.
  Maybe someone on the list has a simple answer.I don't
  think it is anything at my end.
 
 
 Innis,
 
 You just beat me by about 30 seconds posting a screenshot. :-)
 
 Anyways, here's mine...
 http://members.ams.chello.nl/d.talsma/md11-model.jpg
 
 It's my impression that some transformation paramters are not 
 properly 
 recognized in FlightGear/plib, or perhaps done in the wrong order.
 
 Cheers,
 Durk
 

No, I think you two just crashed it :-)

Richard

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Chris Horler]

 No, I think you two just crashed it :-)
pipped at the post...

Is this the plane where the three hydraulics systems pass adjacent to each 
other next to the tail engine?

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Erik Hofman]

Innis Cunningham wrote:
Hi Ampere
See JPG for how the MD11 appeared in FG9.2 and 9.4.
Maybe someone on the list has a simple answer.I don't
think it is anything at my end.
I got exactly the same when importing it in AC3D ...

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[David Megginson]

Innis Cunningham wrote:

See JPG for how the MD11 appeared in FG9.2 and 9.4.
Maybe someone on the list has a simple answer.I don't
think it is anything at my end.
Plib's 3DS loader tends to mess up the geometry -- I remember that from 
experiments a year or two ago.  I think that our only fully-functioning 
loaders (including textures) are AC3D and the MSFS one.

All the best,

David

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[David Megginson]

Chris Horler wrote:

Is this the plane where the three hydraulics systems pass adjacent to each 
other next to the tail engine?
It was its predecessor, the DC-10, that had the crash because of that; I'm 
not sure what changes they made in the MD-11.

It is the plane that was involved in the Swissair crash a few years ago, due 
to an electrical fire.

All the best,

David

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

Yeah, isn't it cool how an Aussie and a Dutchman manage to crash crash this 
bird on opposite sides of the planet simultaneously, and manage to scatter 
the debris around in _exactly_ the same pattern?? :-)

Cheers,
Durk

On Friday 07 May 2004 09:07, Richard Bytheway wrote:
  From: Durk Talsma
  Sent: 07 May 2004 7:20 am
  To: FlightGear developers discussions
  Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11
 
  On Friday 07 May 2004 07:56, Innis Cunningham wrote:
   Hi Ampere
   See JPG for how the MD11 appeared in FG9.2 and 9.4.
   Maybe someone on the list has a simple answer.I don't
   think it is anything at my end.
 
  Innis,
 
  You just beat me by about 30 seconds posting a screenshot. :-)
 
  Anyways, here's mine...
  http://members.ams.chello.nl/d.talsma/md11-model.jpg
 
  It's my impression that some transformation paramters are not
  properly
  recognized in FlightGear/plib, or perhaps done in the wrong order.
 
  Cheers,
  Durk

 No, I think you two just crashed it :-)

 Richard

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

hmm everything is coming out of left handed... I think I know what might 
be the problem.  I think I may know a way to fix it.

Regards,
Ampere

On May 7, 2004 03:14 am, Innis Cunningham wrote:
 Hi Durk
 I have converted it to AC3D to allow me to move it around.
 It appears that for what ever reason everything is coming
 out left handed,eg the wings horizontal and vertical stab
 are all showing as left hand pieces.My guess is it is something
 Ampere has or has not set at his end.Because I am sure I
 have seen 3DS models in FG before with no problems.

 Cheers
 Innis

 Durk Talsma writes

 On Friday 07 May 2004 07:56, Innis Cunningham wrote:
   Hi Ampere
   See JPG for how the MD11 appeared in FG9.2 and 9.4.
   Maybe someone on the list has a simple answer.I don't
   think it is anything at my end.
 
 Innis,
 
 You just beat me by about 30 seconds posting a screenshot. :-)
 
 Anyways, here's mine...
 http://members.ams.chello.nl/d.talsma/md11-model.jpg
 
 It's my impression that some transformation paramters are not properly
 recognized in FlightGear/plib, or perhaps done in the wrong order.
 
 Cheers,
 Durk
 
 
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

Cool! Drop us a note, when you think you fixed it, and I'm sure Innis and I 
are eager to compete for the next round of screenshots. :-)

Cheers,
Durk

On Friday 07 May 2004 18:58, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 hmm everything is coming out of left handed... I think I know what
 might be the problem.  I think I may know a way to fix it.

 Regards,
 Ampere

 On May 7, 2004 03:14 am, Innis Cunningham wrote:
  Hi Durk
  I have converted it to AC3D to allow me to move it around.
  It appears that for what ever reason everything is coming
  out left handed,eg the wings horizontal and vertical stab
  are all showing as left hand pieces.My guess is it is something
  Ampere has or has not set at his end.Because I am sure I
  have seen 3DS models in FG before with no problems.
 
  Cheers
  Innis
 
  Durk Talsma writes
 
  On Friday 07 May 2004 07:56, Innis Cunningham wrote:
Hi Ampere
See JPG for how the MD11 appeared in FG9.2 and 9.4.
Maybe someone on the list has a simple answer.I don't
think it is anything at my end.
  
  Innis,
  
  You just beat me by about 30 seconds posting a screenshot. :-)
  
  Anyways, here's mine...
  http://members.ams.chello.nl/d.talsma/md11-model.jpg
  
  It's my impression that some transformation paramters are not properly
  recognized in FlightGear/plib, or perhaps done in the wrong order.
  
  Cheers,
  Durk
  
  
  
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Jon S Berndt]

On Fri, 7 May 2004 19:26:22 +0200
 Durk Talsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Cool! Drop us a note, when you think you fixed it, and I'm sure Innis 
and I are eager to compete for the next round of screenshots. :-)

Cheers,
Durk
Someone sent me an MD-11 FDM for JSBSim a couple of weeks ago.  I 
don't have that witrh me at the moment, and I also don't remember who 
sent it. Who was that, and where does that stand? Do you still need 
some more help?

Jon

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

Hi Jon,

That was me. The problem was that upon initialization the aircraft tumbles 
over and settles on the runway with a bang. Innis Cunningham discovered that 
we could solve the problem in part by moving the main gears and CoG forward 
to 850 units or less. We have a version in cvs now which still shows the 
problem.  I made the original version using aeromatic. 

Please let me know whether I need to resend you the files. I can't do it today 
anymore though.

Cheers,
Durk

On Friday 07 May 2004 19:28, Jon S Berndt wrote:
 On Fri, 7 May 2004 19:26:22 +0200

   Durk Talsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Cool! Drop us a note, when you think you fixed it, and I'm sure Innis
 and I are eager to compete for the next round of screenshots. :-)
 
 Cheers,
 Durk

 Someone sent me an MD-11 FDM for JSBSim a couple of weeks ago.  I
 don't have that witrh me at the moment, and I also don't remember who
 sent it. Who was that, and where does that stand? Do you still need
 some more help?

 Jon

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Jon S Berndt]

On Fri, 7 May 2004 20:03:22 +0200
 Durk Talsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Jon,

That was me. The problem was that upon initialization the aircraft 
tumbles 
over and settles on the runway with a bang. Innis Cunningham 
discovered that 
we could solve the problem in part by moving the main gears and CoG 
forward 
to 850 units or less. We have a version in cvs now which still shows 
the 
problem.  I made the original version using aeromatic. 

Please let me know whether I need to resend you the files. I can't do 
it today 
anymore though.
Yes, I suppose I can get it from the base package CVS, but it would be 
easier if you had a moment if you could send me the latest aircraft 
and engine files (unless the engine has not changed).

Jon

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 7 May 2004 18:45:56 +0200, Durk wrote in message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Yeah, isn't it cool how an Aussie and a Dutchman manage to crash crash
 this bird on opposite sides of the planet simultaneously, and manage
 to scatter the debris around in _exactly_ the same pattern?? :-)

..wave rider midair?  ;-)

-- 
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...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

It is fixed: http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/MD-11.3ds

Regards,
Ampere

On May 7, 2004 01:26 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:
 Cool! Drop us a note, when you think you fixed it, and I'm sure Innis and I
 are eager to compete for the next round of screenshots. :-)

 Cheers,
 Durk
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

Cool! This is a huge improvement already:

http://members.chello.nl/d.talsma/md11-model-2.jpg

I'm still seeing a bit of a displacement to the right on some parts. Most 
notably the wing flaps and some parts of the tail engine. 

Cheers,
Durk

On Friday 07 May 2004 23:29, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 It is fixed: http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/MD-11.3ds

 Regards,
 Ampere

 On May 7, 2004 01:26 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:
  Cool! Drop us a note, when you think you fixed it, and I'm sure Innis and
  I are eager to compete for the next round of screenshots. :-)
 
  Cheers,
  Durk
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Innis Cunningham]

Hi Guys
Yep beat me this time but then I have to sleep.LOL
Great model Ampere.
I hope you can texture it from 3DS because when I
converted it to AC3D the file went from 120K to 1.2 meg
and wound not reduce in size.I dont know if this has to do
with any LOD structures you may have created.Did you
intend converting it to texture it??.
Cheers
Innis
Durk Talsma writes
Cool! This is a huge improvement already:

http://members.chello.nl/d.talsma/md11-model-2.jpg

I'm still seeing a bit of a displacement to the right on some parts. Most
notably the wing flaps and some parts of the tail engine.
Cheers,
Durk
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

 I hope you can texture it from 3DS because when I
 converted it to AC3D the file went from 120K to 1.2 meg
 and wound not reduce in size.I dont know if this has to do
 with any LOD structures you may have created.
I think 3DS uses binary to store the data while AC3D uses ascii.  That may 
explain why the file is huge after conversion.

 Did you 
 intend converting it to texture it??.
I can apply the textures in 3D Studio.  To be honest, I don't have much 
experience on doing textures.  However, I don't think I will have much 
problems creating the textures since the logo for various airlines can be 
found on Google. =P

Speaking of textures, what format does FlightGear support?  Must the textures 
size be on the power of 2 (2x2, 4X4, 16X16, 32X32...) or can it be of random 
size?

Thanks in Advance,
Ampere

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Erik Hofman]

Lee Elliott wrote:
Hello Ampere,

I think the only practical way you could have several different 
liveries/colour schemes would be to include individual models, each one 
textured differently.
I think there is a way ...

1. Create separate Model directories for each livery.
2. Copy the animation configuration file to each directory.
3. Use the full path to the aircraft geometry file
   i.e. Aircraft/MD-11/Models/md11.ac
4. Put different textures in the different Model directories.
I think this should work.

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Erik Hofman]

Ampere,

Looking a the pictures it looks to me like you are still using two sided 
polygons (that's why the ailerons and such are a lot brighter than the 
rest, you've got the normals inverted).

To render a model really fast in FlightGear it would be best to use only 
one sided polygons (although is rare circumstances I myself do use two 
sided polygons, but I always keep it at a minimum).

Here is an update:
Current polycount ~4400:
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050601.jpg
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050602.jpg
2 Ailerons, 4 flaps, and 5 spoilers:
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050603.jpg
40 blades for each fan:
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050604.jpg
Ouch, I would set a *very* close LOD range to this (30 meters or so) and 
then switch to a textures disk ..

The exterior is basically done.  All there left to do are the winglets, then I 
will upload it to my server.  You can probably get it by tomorrow night.

The cockpit, landing gear wells and the textures will take a while to do; plus 
the fact that this is my first time doing model for FlightGear, it will 
probably be a good idea to put this model in game for now so we can sort out 
any problems that may arise.  We can worry about eye candy later.
Well, so far it looks really nice.

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Jim Wilson]

Erik Hofman said:

 Lee Elliott wrote:
  Hello Ampere,
  
  I think the only practical way you could have several different 
  liveries/colour schemes would be to include individual models, each one 
  textured differently.
 
 I think there is a way ...
 
 1. Create separate Model directories for each livery.
 2. Copy the animation configuration file to each directory.
 3. Use the full path to the aircraft geometry file
 i.e. Aircraft/MD-11/Models/md11.ac
 4. Put different textures in the different Model directories.
 
 I think this should work.
 

It should, or if it doesn't, it would probably be just a minor adjustment to
the loader in plib.

Best,

Jim


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

I've uploaded the 3ds file to the server.  Here it is: 
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/MD-11.3ds

I am crossing my fingers now.  I hope it can be imported into the game without 
any problem.

Regards,
Ampere

On May 6, 2004 01:56 am, Durk Talsma wrote:
 On Thursday 06 May 2004 06:58, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
  The cockpit, landing gear wells and the textures will take a while to do;
  plus the fact that this is my first time doing model for FlightGear, it
  will probably be a good idea to put this model in game for now so we can
  sort out any problems that may arise.  We can worry about eye candy
  later.
 
  Regards,
  Ampere

 Sounds good, it's quite normal actually for features, be it 3D models or
 program code to be added and improved upon incrementally. I'll probably
 throw in the 737 2D cockpit, until we have a dedicated MD11 (3D) cockpit.

 Cheers,
 Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

 Ampere,

 Looking a the pictures it looks to me like you are still using two sided
 polygons (that's why the ailerons and such are a lot brighter than the
 rest, you've got the normals inverted).

 To render a model really fast in FlightGear it would be best to use only
 one sided polygons (although is rare circumstances I myself do use two
 sided polygons, but I always keep it at a minimum).

The reason for the contrast between the wing and the control surfaces is that 
the RGB value for the control surfaces is 255,255,255, while the RGB value 
for the wings is 100,100,100.  I created those control surfaces poly-by-poly, 
so I am positive that they are not double-sided polygons.

 Ouch, I would set a *very* close LOD range to this (30 meters or so) and
 then switch to a textures disk ..

LOL... =P

If the camera is far enough for a lower LOD to be used, I wouldn't use any 
textures -- the texture can't be seen anyway so there is no point for it.


 Well, so far it looks really nice.

Thank you.  I just hope it will get imported into the game without any 
problem.  *Cross my fingers*

Regards,
Ampere

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

On Saturday 01 May 2004 07:09, Jim Wilson wrote:
 Ampere K. Hardraade said:
  Hi,
 
  Sorry for the late reply.  I've just finished my exams earlier this week.
  Here is what I have so far:
  http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050100.jpg
  http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050101.jpg
  http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050102.jpg
 
  Does FlightGear support 3DS format?

 Nice looking model!  It does, because plib includes support for the 3DS
 format.  I'm not sure what limitations there are as far as configuring
 animation is concerned.  If there are issues there you can always use the
 converter included with FlightGear (see /util/3dconvert) to create ac3d
 files from the 3DS.

Yes, I second that. Looks really nice!. Do you already have a texture/livery 
in mind? If not, what about KLM for this one? After all, they're one of the 
major passenger MD-11 operators. :-)

So, is it possible to animate 3DS models from within flightgear, or do we need 
to convert the model to AC3D for that?

B.t.w., Ampere, feel free to sent me a copy of the model when you think you 
have something ready, than I'll try and integrate the model with the MD11 FDM 
configuration files.


Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

For the textures, I was wondering whether it will be possible to have a set of 
textures for every airline.  For example, if the player wants to fly KLM, the 
command line can be --aircraft=MD-11-KLM; if the player wants to fly Swiss, 
then the command line can be --aircraft=MD-11-Swiss.  Can this be done?

I also have some questions regarding how FlightGear handles models.
1.  How should the model be positioned in the 3D program: should the center of 
gravity locate at [0,0,0], or should the very left side of the aircraft be 
[0,y,z], the bow be [x,0,z], and the landing gear rest of [x,y,0]?
2.  Currently, I am using 1 unit = 10 centimeters as the scale in the 3D 
program that I am using.  What should the actual value be?  1 unit = 1 meter?  
3.  How does the LOD system in FlightGear works?  Is it capable of assigning 
different parts of the aircraft with different LOD?  Meaning, can the LOD of 
the engines change while that of the fuselage remains the same?
4.  Must the under carriages be included or does FlightGear allow parts 
sharing between models?
5.  Must there be textures?  If I want to leave some parts blank, will that 
create any problem?

I also have some questions regarding the MD-11 itself:
1.  What is the size of the cockpit?
2.  What are the sizes of the undercarriage doors?
3.  In what way do the under carriages extend and retract?

Thanks in advance,
Ampere


On May 5, 2004 08:05 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:
 On Saturday 01 May 2004 07:09, Jim Wilson wrote:
  Ampere K. Hardraade said:
   Hi,
  
   Sorry for the late reply.  I've just finished my exams earlier this
   week. Here is what I have so far:
   http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050100.jpg
   http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050101.jpg
   http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050102.jpg
  
   Does FlightGear support 3DS format?
 
  Nice looking model!  It does, because plib includes support for the 3DS
  format.  I'm not sure what limitations there are as far as configuring
  animation is concerned.  If there are issues there you can always use the
  converter included with FlightGear (see /util/3dconvert) to create ac3d
  files from the 3DS.

 Yes, I second that. Looks really nice!. Do you already have a
 texture/livery in mind? If not, what about KLM for this one? After all,
 they're one of the major passenger MD-11 operators. :-)

 So, is it possible to animate 3DS models from within flightgear, or do we
 need to convert the model to AC3D for that?

 B.t.w., Ampere, feel free to sent me a copy of the model when you think you
 have something ready, than I'll try and integrate the model with the MD11
 FDM configuration files.


 Cheers,
 Durk

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Lee Elliott]

Hello Ampere,

I think the only practical way you could have several different 
liveries/colour schemes would be to include individual models, each one 
textured differently.

If FlightGear had a 'pre-hook' whereby some code could be run before FG 
started, then that could be used to copy the specific textures you wanted  
over the 'default' texture for the model.  But it doesn't, afaik, so you 
can't.

1.  The FG 'standard' is to locate the tip of the nose, excluding any probes, 
at the 0,0,0 origin.  This will mean that you will have to offset some of the 
camera views so they aim at the approx cg location for the apparent motion to 
look right.

2.  1 unit = 1 metre is probably the best thing to do, and works with .AC 
format models.  However, the first few models I did were in untextured .3DS 
format and iirc, I had to scale them down by 100x and rotate the model by 90 
deg about the length axis - i.e. the side view became a top view.

3.  Can't help you here - not tried using it yet.

4.  If another model had the U/C as a separate file, rather like the 3d 
instruments, you probably could share parts.  I'm assuming you're thinking 
about this to reduce the overhead of having to include an individual model 
for each colour scheme, as opposed to using the U/C from a completely 
different a/c.

Actually, this approach could work quite well, especially if there isn't a lot 
of art work on the wings - you could break the wings down too and call them 
in for each different colour scheme, so you would just need different 
fuselages and marked wing sections for each model.

5.  You don't need to use textures - depending on the model format, you should 
be able to colour specific polygons.  You get better anti-aliasing with 
textures though.

I can't help you with any MD-11 details - you'll have to research that 
yourself.  If they're in use somewhere near, go and watch them.  If not, 
you'll have to look at lots of photos and videos (from the web), and figure 
it out yourself.

LeeE


On Thursday 06 May 2004 02:32, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 For the textures, I was wondering whether it will be possible to have a set
 of textures for every airline.  For example, if the player wants to fly
 KLM, the command line can be --aircraft=MD-11-KLM; if the player wants to
 fly Swiss, then the command line can be --aircraft=MD-11-Swiss.  Can this
 be done?

 I also have some questions regarding how FlightGear handles models.
 1.  How should the model be positioned in the 3D program: should the center
 of gravity locate at [0,0,0], or should the very left side of the aircraft
 be [0,y,z], the bow be [x,0,z], and the landing gear rest of [x,y,0]? 2. 
 Currently, I am using 1 unit = 10 centimeters as the scale in the 3D
 program that I am using.  What should the actual value be?  1 unit = 1
 meter? 3.  How does the LOD system in FlightGear works?  Is it capable of
 assigning different parts of the aircraft with different LOD?  Meaning, can
 the LOD of the engines change while that of the fuselage remains the same?
 4.  Must the under carriages be included or does FlightGear allow parts
 sharing between models?
 5.  Must there be textures?  If I want to leave some parts blank, will that
 create any problem?

 I also have some questions regarding the MD-11 itself:
 1.  What is the size of the cockpit?
 2.  What are the sizes of the undercarriage doors?
 3.  In what way do the under carriages extend and retract?

 Thanks in advance,
 Ampere

 On May 5, 2004 08:05 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:
  On Saturday 01 May 2004 07:09, Jim Wilson wrote:
   Ampere K. Hardraade said:
Hi,
   
Sorry for the late reply.  I've just finished my exams earlier this
week. Here is what I have so far:
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050100.jpg
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050101.jpg
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050102.jpg
   
Does FlightGear support 3DS format?
  
   Nice looking model!  It does, because plib includes support for the 3DS
   format.  I'm not sure what limitations there are as far as configuring
   animation is concerned.  If there are issues there you can always use
   the converter included with FlightGear (see /util/3dconvert) to create
   ac3d files from the 3DS.
 
  Yes, I second that. Looks really nice!. Do you already have a
  texture/livery in mind? If not, what about KLM for this one? After all,
  they're one of the major passenger MD-11 operators. :-)
 
  So, is it possible to animate 3DS models from within flightgear, or do we
  need to convert the model to AC3D for that?
 
  B.t.w., Ampere, feel free to sent me a copy of the model when you think
  you have something ready, than I'll try and integrate the model with the
  MD11 FDM configuration files.
 
 
  Cheers,
  Durk

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Jim Wilson]

Ampere K. Hardraade said:

 For the textures, I was wondering whether it will be possible to have a set of 
 textures for every airline.  For example, if the player wants to fly KLM, the 
 command line can be --aircraft=MD-11-KLM; if the player wants to fly Swiss, 
 then the command line can be --aircraft=MD-11-Swiss.  Can this be done?

It could, but not easily or at least not easily enough that someone has
exceeded the interested enough to code it threshold.  It won't be on my list.

 I also have some questions regarding how FlightGear handles models.
 1.  How should the model be positioned in the 3D program: should the center of 
 gravity locate at [0,0,0], or should the very left side of the aircraft be 
 [0,y,z], the bow be [x,0,z], and the landing gear rest of [x,y,0]?

Probably you'll want to position the 3D model at an identifiable nose location
at 0,0,0 with most aircraft.  The FDM configs can be built around that assumption.

 2.  Currently, I am using 1 unit = 10 centimeters as the scale in the 3D 
 program that I am using.  What should the actual value be?  1 unit = 1 meter?  

Yes.

 3.  How does the LOD system in FlightGear works?  Is it capable of assigning 
 different parts of the aircraft with different LOD?  Meaning, can the LOD of 
 the engines change while that of the fuselage remains the same?

Use range animation type. See the 3D Aircraft Model Mini-HOWTO document at:
http://cvs.flightgear.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/docs/Model/fgfs-model-howto.html?rev=1.8cvsroot=FlightGear-0.9

 4.  Must the under carriages be included or does FlightGear allow parts 
 sharing between models?

You can combine model files and animate them seperately or as a group.  See
the p51-d,  pa28-161, j3cub, 747 3D instrument models as examples.

 5.  Must there be textures?  If I want to leave some parts blank, will that 
 create any problem?

Not at all.

Best,

Jim


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

Here is an update:
Current polycount ~4400:
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050601.jpg
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050602.jpg

2 Ailerons, 4 flaps, and 5 spoilers:
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050603.jpg

40 blades for each fan:
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050604.jpg

The exterior is basically done.  All there left to do are the winglets, then I 
will upload it to my server.  You can probably get it by tomorrow night.

The cockpit, landing gear wells and the textures will take a while to do; plus 
the fact that this is my first time doing model for FlightGear, it will 
probably be a good idea to put this model in game for now so we can sort out 
any problems that may arise.  We can worry about eye candy later.

Regards,
Ampere

 On May 5, 2004 08:05 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:

  Yes, I second that. Looks really nice!. Do you already have a
  texture/livery in mind? If not, what about KLM for this one? After all,
  they're one of the major passenger MD-11 operators. :-)
 
  So, is it possible to animate 3DS models from within flightgear, or do we
  need to convert the model to AC3D for that?
 
  B.t.w., Ampere, feel free to sent me a copy of the model when you think
  you have something ready, than I'll try and integrate the model with the
  MD11 FDM configuration files.
 
 
  Cheers,
  Durk

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

On Thursday 06 May 2004 06:58, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:

 The cockpit, landing gear wells and the textures will take a while to do;
 plus the fact that this is my first time doing model for FlightGear, it
 will probably be a good idea to put this model in game for now so we can
 sort out any problems that may arise.  We can worry about eye candy later.

 Regards,
 Ampere


Sounds good, it's quite normal actually for features, be it 3D models or 
program code to be added and improved upon incrementally. I'll probably throw 
in the 737 2D cockpit, until we have a dedicated MD11 (3D) cockpit. 

Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

On Thursday 06 May 2004 04:43, Jim Wilson wrote:
 Ampere K. Hardraade said:
  For the textures, I was wondering whether it will be possible to have a
  set of textures for every airline.  For example, if the player wants to
  fly KLM, the command line can be --aircraft=MD-11-KLM; if the player
  wants to fly Swiss, then the command line can be --aircraft=MD-11-Swiss. 
  Can this be done?

 It could, but not easily or at least not easily enough that someone has
 exceeded the interested enough to code it threshold.  It won't be on my
 list.

As far as I can tell, the only possible way to do this right now would be to 
duplicate the entire set of .xml aircraft configuration files. It's probably 
not as much work as it seems, because the only parts that need to be changed 
are the texture files, and the references to the texture files. Currently the 
interested enough to code it level probably isn't high enough (including 
for myself), but I can see a need for multiple livery support coming in the 
forseeable future. David Luff, David Culp, Erik Hofman, and me have been 
discussing some issues related to AI traffic offlist. Yesterday I managed to 
impliment a first rough prototype top level flightplan manager, which listst 
the current status of any aircraft listed in the database, as either enroute 
between  and , or parked at airport . I'm using data from 
projectai (http://www.projectai.com) to test the algorithms, but we could 
also throw in our own data. I'm still a long way away from a fully 
implimented AI manager, but it was quite satsisfying to see that I got this 
part already working within a day of coding. 

I'll try and write some more about AI traffic, in a dedicated thread,

Cheers,
Durk



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Erik Hofman]

Jim Wilson wrote:
Ampere K. Hardraade said:

Does FlightGear support 3DS format?


Nice looking model!  It does, because plib includes support for the 3DS
format.  I'm not sure what limitations there are as far as configuring
animation is concerned.  If there are issues there you can always use the
converter included with FlightGear (see /util/3dconvert) to create ac3d files
from the 3DS.
Actually it moved to /utils/Modeller/threedconvert
(don't ask ...)
Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Lee Elliott]

On Saturday 01 May 2004 06:09, Jim Wilson wrote:
 Ampere K. Hardraade said:
  Hi,
 
  Sorry for the late reply.  I've just finished my exams earlier this week.
  Here is what I have so far:
  http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050100.jpg
  http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050101.jpg
  http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050102.jpg
 
  Does FlightGear support 3DS format?

 Nice looking model!  It does, because plib includes support for the 3DS
 format.  I'm not sure what limitations there are as far as configuring
 animation is concerned.  If there are issues there you can always use the
 converter included with FlightGear (see /util/3dconvert) to create ac3d
 files from the 3DS.

 Best,

 Jim

I never hit any problems with animating .3ds models but I couldn't find a way 
to texture them.  However, I wasn't using 3D Studio or Max to make them and I 
could only export the geometry so it's possible that textured .3ds models 
made using 3D Studio or Max will be fine.

IIRC, plib does not have full support for all the formats it handles but I 
don't know what the specific limitations are - perhaps there may be something 
in the plib docs that clarify this.

LeeE

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

Hi,

Sorry for the late reply.  I've just finished my exams earlier this week.  
Here is what I have so far:
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050100.jpg
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050101.jpg
http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050102.jpg

Does FlightGear support 3DS format?

Regards,
Ampere

On April 26, 2004 02:51 pm, Durk Talsma wrote:
 On Sunday 25 April 2004 18:46, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
  Hi,
 
  If you guys want a MD-11 specifically for FlightGear, I think I may be
  able to make one.  I have 3D Max Studio but I'm not sure whether
  FlightGear supports 3DS files.
 
  Regards,
  Ampere

 Oh yes! A nice MD-11 3D model would be absolutely welcome. Let me (us) know
 if you have any questions.

 Thanks,
 Durk



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Jim Wilson]

Ampere K. Hardraade said:

 Hi,
 
 Sorry for the late reply.  I've just finished my exams earlier this week.  
 Here is what I have so far:
 http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050100.jpg
 http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050101.jpg
 http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs233144/2004050102.jpg
 
 Does FlightGear support 3DS format?

Nice looking model!  It does, because plib includes support for the 3DS
format.  I'm not sure what limitations there are as far as configuring
animation is concerned.  If there are issues there you can always use the
converter included with FlightGear (see /util/3dconvert) to create ac3d files
from the 3DS.

Best,

Jim


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

Hi Innis,

I just sent my MD11 files to Erik, so hopefully they show up in  CVS one of 
these days. I haven't done any _systematic_ testing yet, so I can't confirm 
whether or not the 850 units value is the absolute cut-off or not, but moving 
both CoG and Main gear forward to less than 850 unit solved the 
initialization problem for me. :-)

Now, does moving the CoG forward impact anything at all? I can imagine that it 
doesn't when we move everthing else forward too, by the same number of units, 
but I'm still unfamiliar enough to be completely wrong here. Moving just the 
CoG and the main gears didn't really seem to impact the feel of the flight 
model though. 

Just out of curiousity: Did you also use aeromatic to generate your MD-11 
config file, or did you build it manually. I saw similar, but slightly 
different values in your config file, compared to the ones I got from 
aeromatic. 

Speaking of a 3D model, yeah, it would be cool to stitch in a FS98 model until 
we have a decent native GPL'ed model. I've never done this though, so some 
useful tips would be more than welcome. :-)

Cheers,
Durk

On Sunday 25 April 2004 13:05, Innis Cunningham wrote:
 Hi Durk
 I don't know if you have actually got the A/C to sit on the ground
 correctly yet.But I have got both the 747 and MD11 to sit correctly
 by making sure the CG figure is no further back than 850 X units and the
 MLG figures also no further back than 850 X units any further back and the
 model does not sit correctly.
 See below for extracts from both my config files


 I don't know if you are interested but I grabed a MD11 from
 FS 98  from Simviation just so at least the model looked like a
 MD11.
 If you are not familiar with using FS98 models give me a yell.




 Durk Talsma writes

 On Saturday 24 April 2004 14:50, Erik Hofman wrote:
   Innis Cunningham wrote:
Also the further back you put the CofG the higher off the ground the
 
 A/C
 
seems to start.
  
   This almost sounds like and axis mismatch. Is the gear located in the
   structural frame or in the body frame?
 
 It actually reminds me that during one of my tweaks I noticed that I found
 the
 aircraft to flip-over sideways, while I was only moving either gears or
  CoG forward or backward. I didn't give it much thougth then, and
  therefore don't
 remember the exact parameters that made this happen. But, would it be
 possible than that specifically in the JSB trimming routine somehow.
 
 I feel it's still a bit premature, but if anybody wants to play with the
 MD11
 files, I could offer them for cvs inclusion. Who should I send them to?
 Curt?
 Erik?
 
 Cheers,
 Durk

 Cheers
 Innis

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

On Sunday 25 April 2004 18:46, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:
 Hi,

 If you guys want a MD-11 specifically for FlightGear, I think I may be able
 to make one.  I have 3D Max Studio but I'm not sure whether FlightGear
 supports 3DS files.

 Regards,
 Ampere

Oh yes! A nice MD-11 3D model would be absolutely welcome. Let me (us) know if 
you have any questions.

Thanks,
Durk



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

On Saturday 24 April 2004 14:50, Erik Hofman wrote:
 Innis Cunningham wrote:
  Also the further back you put the CofG the higher off the ground the A/C
  seems to start.

 This almost sounds like and axis mismatch. Is the gear located in the
 structural frame or in the body frame?


It actually reminds me that during one of my tweaks I noticed that I found the 
aircraft to flip-over sideways, while I was only moving either gears or CoG 
forward or backward. I didn't give it much thougth then, and therefore don't 
remember the exact parameters that made this happen. But, would it be 
possible than that specifically in the JSB trimming routine somehow.

I feel it's still a bit premature, but if anybody wants to play with the MD11 
files, I could offer them for cvs inclusion. Who should I send them to? Curt? 
Erik?

Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Erik Hofman]

Durk Talsma wrote:
I feel it's still a bit premature, but if anybody wants to play with the MD11 
files, I could offer them for cvs inclusion. Who should I send them to? Curt? 
Erik?
I think Curtis is buried under audio bits.
You can sent it to me.
Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Innis Cunningham]

Hi Durk
I don't know if you have actually got the A/C to sit on the ground
correctly yet.But I have got both the 747 and MD11 to sit correctly
by making sure the CG figure is no further back than 850 X units and the
MLG figures also no further back than 850 X units any further back and the
model does not sit correctly.
See below for extracts from both my config files
747
AC_EMPTYWT   398500
  AC_CGLOC 850.3  0.0  -69.6
  AC_AERORP850.3  0.0  30.0
  AC_EYEPTLOC  194.8 -32.0 100.0
  AC_VRP   850.3 0 -50
/METRICS
UNDERCARRIAGE
 AC_GEAR NOSE_LG   361.7  0.0 -180.9 262546.0 87515.3  0.5  0.8  0.02 
STEERABLE NONE  5.0 RETRACT
 AC_GEAR LEFT_MLG  870.5 -228.3 -180.9 875153.5 175030.7  0.5  0.8  0.02 
FIXED LEFT  0 RETRACT
 AC_GEAR RIGHT_MLG 870.5 228.3 -180.9 875153.5 175030.7  0.5  0.8  0.02 
FIXED RIGHT 0 RETRACT
/UNDERCARRIAGE

MD11
AC_EMPTYWT   378363
  AC_CGLOC 800.5  0.0 -60.2
  AC_AERORP800.5  0.0  0.0
  AC_EYEPTLOC  168.7 -30.0 75.0
  AC_VRP   0 0 0
/METRICS
UNDERCARRIAGE
 AC_GEAR NOSE_LG   313.3  0.0 -170.2 189181.7 63060.6  0.5  0.8  0.02 
STEERABLE NONE  5.0 RETRACT
 AC_GEAR LEFT_MLG  850.5 -183.1 -170.2 630605.7 126121.1  0.5  0.8  0.02 
FIXED LEFT  0 RETRACT
 AC_GEAR RIGHT_MLG 850.5 183.1 -170.2 630605.7 126121.1  0.5  0.8  0.02 
FIXED RIGHT 0 RETRACT
/UNDERCARRIAGE
Why this happens I don't know I will send an email to David Culp and
see if he has any ideas.
I don't know if you are interested but I grabed a MD11 from
FS 98  from Simviation just so at least the model looked like a
MD11.
If you are not familiar with using FS98 models give me a yell.



Durk Talsma writes
On Saturday 24 April 2004 14:50, Erik Hofman wrote:
 Innis Cunningham wrote:
  Also the further back you put the CofG the higher off the ground the 
A/C
  seems to start.

 This almost sounds like and axis mismatch. Is the gear located in the
 structural frame or in the body frame?


It actually reminds me that during one of my tweaks I noticed that I found 
the
aircraft to flip-over sideways, while I was only moving either gears or CoG
forward or backward. I didn't give it much thougth then, and therefore 
don't
remember the exact parameters that made this happen. But, would it be
possible than that specifically in the JSB trimming routine somehow.

I feel it's still a bit premature, but if anybody wants to play with the 
MD11
files, I could offer them for cvs inclusion. Who should I send them to? 
Curt?
Erik?

Cheers,
Durk
Cheers
Innis
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

Hi,

If you guys want a MD-11 specifically for FlightGear, I think I may be able to 
make one.  I have 3D Max Studio but I'm not sure whether FlightGear supports 
3DS files.

Regards,
Ampere

On April 25, 2004 07:05 am, Innis Cunningham wrote:
 Hi Durk
 I don't know if you have actually got the A/C to sit on the ground
 correctly yet.But I have got both the 747 and MD11 to sit correctly
 by making sure the CG figure is no further back than 850 X units and the
 MLG figures also no further back than 850 X units any further back and the
 model does not sit correctly.
 See below for extracts from both my config files

 747
 AC_EMPTYWT   398500
AC_CGLOC 850.3  0.0  -69.6
AC_AERORP850.3  0.0  30.0
AC_EYEPTLOC  194.8 -32.0 100.0
AC_VRP   850.3 0 -50
 /METRICS
 UNDERCARRIAGE
   AC_GEAR NOSE_LG   361.7  0.0 -180.9 262546.0 87515.3  0.5  0.8  0.02
 STEERABLE NONE  5.0 RETRACT
   AC_GEAR LEFT_MLG  870.5 -228.3 -180.9 875153.5 175030.7  0.5  0.8  0.02
 FIXED LEFT  0 RETRACT
   AC_GEAR RIGHT_MLG 870.5 228.3 -180.9 875153.5 175030.7  0.5  0.8  0.02
 FIXED RIGHT 0 RETRACT
 /UNDERCARRIAGE

 MD11
 AC_EMPTYWT   378363
AC_CGLOC 800.5  0.0 -60.2
AC_AERORP800.5  0.0  0.0
AC_EYEPTLOC  168.7 -30.0 75.0
AC_VRP   0 0 0
 /METRICS
 UNDERCARRIAGE
   AC_GEAR NOSE_LG   313.3  0.0 -170.2 189181.7 63060.6  0.5  0.8  0.02
 STEERABLE NONE  5.0 RETRACT
   AC_GEAR LEFT_MLG  850.5 -183.1 -170.2 630605.7 126121.1  0.5  0.8  0.02
 FIXED LEFT  0 RETRACT
   AC_GEAR RIGHT_MLG 850.5 183.1 -170.2 630605.7 126121.1  0.5  0.8  0.02
 FIXED RIGHT 0 RETRACT
 /UNDERCARRIAGE
 Why this happens I don't know I will send an email to David Culp and
 see if he has any ideas.
 I don't know if you are interested but I grabed a MD11 from
 FS 98  from Simviation just so at least the model looked like a
 MD11.
 If you are not familiar with using FS98 models give me a yell.




 Durk Talsma writes

 On Saturday 24 April 2004 14:50, Erik Hofman wrote:
   Innis Cunningham wrote:
Also the further back you put the CofG the higher off the ground the
 
 A/C
 
seems to start.
  
   This almost sounds like and axis mismatch. Is the gear located in the
   structural frame or in the body frame?
 
 It actually reminds me that during one of my tweaks I noticed that I found
 the
 aircraft to flip-over sideways, while I was only moving either gears or
  CoG forward or backward. I didn't give it much thougth then, and
  therefore don't
 remember the exact parameters that made this happen. But, would it be
 possible than that specifically in the JSB trimming routine somehow.
 
 I feel it's still a bit premature, but if anybody wants to play with the
 MD11
 files, I could offer them for cvs inclusion. Who should I send them to?
 Curt?
 Erik?
 
 Cheers,
 Durk

 Cheers
 Innis

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Innis Cunningham]

Hi Guys
I had a play with this last night by using the 737 FDM on the
747 and hacking it around to see what would happen and everything
worked ok till the CofG got over 850 X units(what do the units represent 
inches
feet ??), or the MLG was moved back past 850 X units.I also noticed if the 
CofG
was moved anymore than 10 units further back than the MLG position I got a
page fault on windows 98 and the program crashed.
Some of the other things that happened was by moving the CofG forward of the 
MLG
position by a large amount the A/C would start on its back under the runway.
Also the further back you put the CofG the higher off the ground the A/C 
seems
to start.
I dont know if any of this helps or makes sense but there it is.
I will email David Culp about Aeromatic and see if I can understand it more

Cheers
Innis
Durk Talsma writes
 Can you email me your config file and engine file?  I can try running
 it in the standalone JSBSim and make some quick plots and see what I
 can see.

 Are you initializing on the runway? At altitude?

I'm initializing on the runway. Below sea level actually, but that 
shouldn't
make a difference, because the other JSBsim aircraft (the ones I've tested)
initialize just fine on the same runway.

I'll send you the config files (both original aeromatic output and tweaked
versions) by private email in a few moments.
Thanks,
Durk
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Innis Cunningham]

Hi Erik

Erik Hofman writes
Innis Cunningham wrote:

Also the further back you put the CofG the higher off the ground the A/C 
seems to start.
This almost sounds like and axis mismatch. Is the gear located in the 
structural frame or in the body frame?
I am not sure what you mean.The gear is placed were Aeromatic thinks
it should go based on the size of the A/C and that it is a tricycle 
undercarrage.
But after more testing tonight I find if you keep the CG and MLG items in 
jbsim
below 850 X units the A/C inializes normally. Move either of the  items past 
870 X
units and the A/C won't inialize correctly.
Why ?. I don't know.
The only thing now is the 747 seems to fly 8-10deg right wing low I guess 
with
all the hacking I have done something is not in the right spot.
Erik

Cheers
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Erik Hofman]

Durk Talsma wrote:
On Thursday 22 April 2004 21:34, Jon S Berndt wrote:
On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:49:25 +0200
 Durk Talsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, that's right. It happened in  that order :-) When I first tried
loading the MD11, it appeared to initialize a few hundred feet above the
ground, and
Hmm.  I think this would be the first thing to address.  I don't know
why the aircraft would start up above the ground like that ...
Yeah, that's what I thought as well. my guess is that this is somehow related 
to the initial trimming procedure. 
I think you're right. I noticed that just after start (or reset) the AOA 
is quite high (probably 90 degrees) until you start to move. I noticed 
this after adding the propeller sound due to angle of attack.

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

On Friday 23 April 2004 04:47, David Culp wrote:

 When a JSBSim airplane begins in a bizarre position, or is tumbling, that
 means that it failed the ground trimming routine.  I've found that
 aeromatic has a hard time generating large airplanes that will trim
 properly.  I've only been able to fix it by going over the config file and
 tweaking the values for MOI's, CG, AC, gear, and engines until I get
 something that will trim.  Very time consuming.

 It's going to take a long time to figure out where aeromatic is failing, as
 the values look plausible.

Hmm, I just played a bit with the main gears' position, moving them backward 
by just a bit, and right now, I have the situation where upon initialization, 
the aircraft tumbles over once and than settles with a bang on the runway. Do 
you have any recommentations about what strategy to follow?

Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Jon S Berndt]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:03:15 +0200
 Durk Talsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hmm, I just played a bit with the main gears' position, moving them 
backward 
by just a bit, and right now, I have the situation where upon 
initialization, 
the aircraft tumbles over once and than settles with a bang on the 
runway. Do 
you have any recommentations about what strategy to follow?
Can you email me your config file and engine file?  I can try running 
it in the standalone JSBSim and make some quick plots and see what I 
can see.

Are you initializing on the runway? At altitude?

Jon

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

 Can you email me your config file and engine file?  I can try running
 it in the standalone JSBSim and make some quick plots and see what I
 can see.

 Are you initializing on the runway? At altitude?

I'm initializing on the runway. Below sea level actually, but that shouldn't 
make a difference, because the other JSBsim aircraft (the ones I've tested) 
initialize just fine on the same runway.

I'll send you the config files (both original aeromatic output and tweaked 
versions) by private email in a few moments. 

Thanks,
Durk


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[Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

After visiting Jon Berndt's revamped  JSBsim website and getting hooked on 
heavies after my recent 747 tests, I decided to punch some MD-11 performance 
data, which I picked up from http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/ into 
aeromatic and --kinda to my surprise, being an aeronotical nono-- got 
something that's actually flyable. I even managed one landing and take-off 
yesterday. 

Well, that's right. It happened in  that order :-) When I first tried loading 
the MD11, it appeared to initialize a few hundred feet above the ground, and 
then started tumbling down. The only way I could start the MD-11 was by using 
the --altitude=1 option and then wait until it gained enough airspeed to 
recover from the stall.I looked through a few aircraft.xml and 
aircraft-set.xml files to see if there's something I did obviously wrong, but 
couldn't find anything apparent. Any thoughts, suggestions? 

I just started this excersise as a fun project, but now, I'm kinda hooked, 
would like to develop this little beast a bit further, and eventually 
contribute it back to the project.

Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Jon S Berndt]

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:49:25 +0200
 Durk Talsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, that's right. It happened in  that order :-) When I first tried 
loading the MD11, it appeared to initialize a few hundred feet above the 
ground, and 
Hmm.  I think this would be the first thing to address.  I don't know 
why the aircraft would start up above the ground like that ...

Jon

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[Durk Talsma]

On Thursday 22 April 2004 21:34, Jon S Berndt wrote:
 On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:49:25 +0200

   Durk Talsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Well, that's right. It happened in  that order :-) When I first tried
 loading the MD11, it appeared to initialize a few hundred feet above the
 ground, and

 Hmm.  I think this would be the first thing to address.  I don't know
 why the aircraft would start up above the ground like that ...

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. my guess is that this is somehow related 
to the initial trimming procedure. I've attached the output from flightgear. 
If you're interested, I can send you the output from aeromatic, and my 
aircraft-set.xml file.
--
This aircraft model is an ALPHA release!!!

This aircraft model may not even properly load, and probably will not fly as 
expected.

Use this model for development purposes ONLY!!!

  Trim Results:
  Altitude AGL:  15.00  wdot: -2.28e+01 Tolerance: 1e-03
   Pitch Angle:  -1.55  qdot: -5.92e+00 Tolerance: 1e-04

  Trim Statistics:
Total Iterations: 61
Sub-iterations:
wdot:   0 average:  0.00  successful:   0  stability:  2.00
qdot:   0 average:  0.00  successful:   0  stability:  2.00
Run Count: 736
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~
-

Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] MD-11

[David Culp]

  When I first tried
  loading the MD11, it appeared to initialize a few hundred feet above the
  ground, and

When a JSBSim airplane begins in a bizarre position, or is tumbling, that 
means that it failed the ground trimming routine.  I've found that aeromatic 
has a hard time generating large airplanes that will trim properly.  I've 
only been able to fix it by going over the config file and tweaking the 
values for MOI's, CG, AC, gear, and engines until I get something that will 
trim.  Very time consuming.

It's going to take a long time to figure out where aeromatic is failing, as 
the values look plausible.


Dave
-- 

David Culp
davidculp2[at]comcast.net


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