Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Andre Müller]

BTW: DNS... Why fucking hell doesn't valve games support the SRV entry? A
little change for them and for communities a big deal. But why do I write
this? There were some other people who do this improvement suggestion
~2004...

I give a shit on banning hw ids. This will never work, because you can
change your hw-ids (changing mac address, disable cpu serial number...).
Everyone who want's fuck up the community is doing this.
 With or without banning hw-ids is not necessary.
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Jake Forrester]

I could honestly care less how it's done, so the easiest method seems to
be the best.  It really doesn't seem like it would be hard to implement,
but none of us can see the inner workings of how things are setup at
Valve.  Either way, it would seem a worthwhile endeavor.

On 9/5/2013 6:32 AM, Doctor McKay wrote:
> The idea of assigning a server a Steam ID is an interesting one, but we
> actually already have a system for this, at least in TF2. If a server is
> logged in to Steam, then when you favorite it you could actually favorite
> the server's account ID. Then the favorites list would retrieve the
> server's current address from Steam based on the account ID.
>
> This could also be an additional benefit to registering your server beyond
> just Quickplay participation (which is only relevant if you're not running
> custom maps/mods) and event participation (which is only relevant about two
> weeks out of the year).
>
>
> Dr. McKay
> www.doctormckay.com
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:
>
>> yeah, problem is, brick wall in front of that guy.
>>
>> If I have a bunch of favorited servers, and a server drops off due a IP
>> change, that server wont see me back. For:
>> A: I'm not even aware the server is gone, unless its a special mod that I
>> like.
>> B: As I have enough other favorites, I wont be searching for servers in
>> the internet tab.
>> Majority of servers out there run mandatory Pinion nowadays, so searching
>> for new servers is a pain anyways.
>>
>> And NO, I'm NOT looking for EMPTY servers. So I sort on # of players on
>> it, and look for a map I like.
>>
>> But the most important question is: Would I like to keep the server in my
>> Fav's, regardless of their IP?
>>
>> And the answer is yes, for once they made it to my favs, the server proved
>> to me to not be a bad one (pinion R**e, lag, crap plugins, etc)
>> That is the purpose of my Favorites to me: get back to servers that didn't
>> make me a bad experience. If one such changed, for example add Pinion, and
>> I didn't like it anymore, I leave and remove it from favs...
>>
>> That is the "special" part of having a Favorite server list, those servers
>> earned to be there.
>>
>>
>>


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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 05/09/2013 14:14, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:

yeah, problem is, brick wall in front of that guy.

If I have a bunch of favorited servers, and a server drops off due a IP change, 
that server wont see me back. For:
A: I'm not even aware the server is gone, unless its a special mod that I like.
B: As I have enough other favorites, I wont be searching for servers in the 
internet tab.
Majority of servers out there run mandatory Pinion nowadays, so searching for 
new servers is a pain anyways.

And NO, I'm NOT looking for EMPTY servers. So I sort on # of players on it, and 
look for a map I like.

But the most important question is: Would I like to keep the server in my 
Fav's, regardless of their IP?

And the answer is yes, for once they made it to my favs, the server proved to 
me to not be a bad one (pinion R**e, lag, crap plugins, etc)
That is the purpose of my Favorites to me: get back to servers that didn't make 
me a bad experience. If one such changed, for example add Pinion, and I didn't 
like it anymore, I leave and remove it from favs...

That is the "special" part of having a Favorite server list, those servers 
earned to be there.


Personally I think you should look up what "favourite" means :)

But no matter, if you want a list of 100 servers you don't play on. You 
have that now.


There really is no difficulty keeping track of the handful of servers 
people actually play on.


And it doesn't matter because there really is no difficulty finding a 
server that changes IP

or a new one you've never played on that fits whatever criteria you have.

You wouldn't have 80-100 servers in your favourites list if it was 
difficult to find and join a new server.


It's even easier to find a server that has an unusual map or mod on it.

But this is moot, as I said earlier, DNS doesn't fix this. DNS just 
gives the admin another

avenue to screw the player base.

Your flaw is implying that the favourite list keeps track of all the 
things you

like about a server.

In truth it doesn't. If you played on the world's best server, from your 
point of view,
a day later they could add pinion, get lag, add plugins you don't like 
or run a different set

of maps.

It's still in your faves. Your 80-100 faves is, as you say, servers that
you have no idea what they are, why you added them, whether they are
still good or even if they've disappeared from your faves or not.

Maybe someone else got a server from that vendor, runs a different map and
now it's in your faves.  And you're saying you don't want to lose it? But
you've never played on it.

Of course you say "If a server changed things then I remove it from 
faves" - but, from the respect of keeping
track of "good servers" (whatever your criteria for good is) faves 
doesn't do that.

In fact, it's completely useless for what you claim you use it for.

The only thing it tracks is IP and you are all saying you don't want it 
to do that.


But, when IP changes, so might half of the criteria - ping, lag you 
chose it for.


As I said in another post, if you give a server an Unique ID to identify 
it (instead of

using IP), I absolutely am saying IMO you cannot keep that ID static given
certain changes to the server. Because it's useless if you do and ripe 
for abuse.


But the above is all client concerns, not server concerns.

What arguments did we have from admins pov? A lot of nonsense.
Mostly centered around the idea that if you change the IP address on a 
server it will be empty for 6 months losing a big community
making it impossible for an admin to change hosts or otherwise fix his 
poor performing server - not something you said but which is a crock of 
shit.


Later it was claimed that players will happily stop on a server that's 
lagging or having network problems, which
again, you accept is not something you would do. So, if a server has 
network issues, it's absolutely
going to lose its player base, making the idea there are a significant 
number of server admins
sitting on poor hosts because they cannot change ip address, seem very 
unlikely.


And that was about it - there really were, imo, no coherent reasons for 
why admins
would care about this - presumably because none of you want to mention 
the nefarious

benefits :)

As you seem to accept, when we favourite a server it's not about the IP 
address

being the same, or some unique ID being the same. It's about all the
factors that server had that made you think "I want to play here again"
that might be ping, it might be the other players, the map, whatever 
being the same
or at least very similar.   A unique ID cannot track this no more than 
an ip address can.


As for pinion, that's a red herring, it's obviously a bad thing from 
many points of view.


I'd certainly agree with anyone that suggested Valve should do a lot 
more with TAGs to allow clients
to filter out servers using this kind of thing or to join them if they 
want. (Arguably they could
push a few more of the convars that screw the 

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[ElitePowered .]

What if i told youthey're too busy working on HL3 :D
Anyhow, I assume it would be something they could do in the next source
engine, which is confirmed. This sounds great and all but i think we all
need a reality checksomething this big isn't going to happen. But even
if it did, it would take a while so don't hold your breath.


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Erik-jan Riemers  wrote:

> i think in order of "work" the idea of mckay would be the simplest for
> valve to implement. we can only hope they would give some kind of statement
> if they will introduce this, and when not, why?
>
> I've got pretty much every server registered except 24/7 custom maps but i
> have no problem registering those too if it adds benefit.
>
>
> 2013/9/5 Doctor McKay 
>
> > The idea of assigning a server a Steam ID is an interesting one, but we
> > actually already have a system for this, at least in TF2. If a server is
> > logged in to Steam, then when you favorite it you could actually favorite
> > the server's account ID. Then the favorites list would retrieve the
> > server's current address from Steam based on the account ID.
> >
> > This could also be an additional benefit to registering your server
> beyond
> > just Quickplay participation (which is only relevant if you're not
> running
> > custom maps/mods) and event participation (which is only relevant about
> two
> > weeks out of the year).
> >
> >
> > Dr. McKay
> > www.doctormckay.com
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk  > >wrote:
> >
> > > yeah, problem is, brick wall in front of that guy.
> > >
> > > If I have a bunch of favorited servers, and a server drops off due a IP
> > > change, that server wont see me back. For:
> > > A: I'm not even aware the server is gone, unless its a special mod
> that I
> > > like.
> > > B: As I have enough other favorites, I wont be searching for servers in
> > > the internet tab.
> > > Majority of servers out there run mandatory Pinion nowadays, so
> searching
> > > for new servers is a pain anyways.
> > >
> > > And NO, I'm NOT looking for EMPTY servers. So I sort on # of players on
> > > it, and look for a map I like.
> > >
> > > But the most important question is: Would I like to keep the server in
> my
> > > Fav's, regardless of their IP?
> > >
> > > And the answer is yes, for once they made it to my favs, the server
> > proved
> > > to me to not be a bad one (pinion R**e, lag, crap plugins, etc)
> > > That is the purpose of my Favorites to me: get back to servers that
> > didn't
> > > make me a bad experience. If one such changed, for example add Pinion,
> > and
> > > I didn't like it anymore, I leave and remove it from favs...
> > >
> > > That is the "special" part of having a Favorite server list, those
> > servers
> > > earned to be there.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > From: martin v 
> > > >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> > > hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> > > >Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013, 7:23
> > > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> > > can ban HWID too.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Let's don't let this topic die.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >2013/8/28 dan 
> > > >
> > > >> On 26/08/2013 04:07, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I do not agree on your assumption.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Most players use their favorites, they have a bunch of them in
> there,
> > > for
> > > >>> various mods within the game.
> > > >>> Personally, I have like 80-100 servers in there, I really wouldn't
> > > notice
> > > >>> a server dropping off cos they changed IP.
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> Well you wouldn't really have to notice it would you? Most of the
> time
> > > >> Robert must be crying because
> > > >> you're not on his server you're on one of the other 99 in your
> > > favourites
> > > >> list. So your argument
> > > >> doesn't really solve Robert's problem does it? He wants you to have
> &g

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Erik-jan Riemers]

i think in order of "work" the idea of mckay would be the simplest for
valve to implement. we can only hope they would give some kind of statement
if they will introduce this, and when not, why?

I've got pretty much every server registered except 24/7 custom maps but i
have no problem registering those too if it adds benefit.


2013/9/5 Doctor McKay 

> The idea of assigning a server a Steam ID is an interesting one, but we
> actually already have a system for this, at least in TF2. If a server is
> logged in to Steam, then when you favorite it you could actually favorite
> the server's account ID. Then the favorites list would retrieve the
> server's current address from Steam based on the account ID.
>
> This could also be an additional benefit to registering your server beyond
> just Quickplay participation (which is only relevant if you're not running
> custom maps/mods) and event participation (which is only relevant about two
> weeks out of the year).
>
>
> Dr. McKay
> www.doctormckay.com
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk  >wrote:
>
> > yeah, problem is, brick wall in front of that guy.
> >
> > If I have a bunch of favorited servers, and a server drops off due a IP
> > change, that server wont see me back. For:
> > A: I'm not even aware the server is gone, unless its a special mod that I
> > like.
> > B: As I have enough other favorites, I wont be searching for servers in
> > the internet tab.
> > Majority of servers out there run mandatory Pinion nowadays, so searching
> > for new servers is a pain anyways.
> >
> > And NO, I'm NOT looking for EMPTY servers. So I sort on # of players on
> > it, and look for a map I like.
> >
> > But the most important question is: Would I like to keep the server in my
> > Fav's, regardless of their IP?
> >
> > And the answer is yes, for once they made it to my favs, the server
> proved
> > to me to not be a bad one (pinion R**e, lag, crap plugins, etc)
> > That is the purpose of my Favorites to me: get back to servers that
> didn't
> > make me a bad experience. If one such changed, for example add Pinion,
> and
> > I didn't like it anymore, I leave and remove it from favs...
> >
> > That is the "special" part of having a Favorite server list, those
> servers
> > earned to be there.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > From: martin v 
> > >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> > hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> > >Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013, 7:23
> > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> > can ban HWID too.
> > >
> > >
> > >Let's don't let this topic die.
> > >
> > >
> > >2013/8/28 dan 
> > >
> > >> On 26/08/2013 04:07, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I do not agree on your assumption.
> > >>>
> > >>> Most players use their favorites, they have a bunch of them in there,
> > for
> > >>> various mods within the game.
> > >>> Personally, I have like 80-100 servers in there, I really wouldn't
> > notice
> > >>> a server dropping off cos they changed IP.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Well you wouldn't really have to notice it would you? Most of the time
> > >> Robert must be crying because
> > >> you're not on his server you're on one of the other 99 in your
> > favourites
> > >> list. So your argument
> > >> doesn't really solve Robert's problem does it? He wants you to have
> one
> > >> favourite server - his.
> > >>
> > >> Please, at least use some common sense before replying.
> > >>
> > >> What assumption do you disagree with? I'm saying in order to have 100
> > >> servers in your faves list
> > >> you must have found and joined those servers at one point without them
> > >> being in that list. You cannot argue
> > >> with that, it's a simple fact.
> > >>
> > >> So, if you've only 99 servers (and it's clear you don't know if you
> have
> > >> 80 or 100) panic!
> > >> No don't panic, do exactly what you did to find those 99 servers to
> find
> > >> the missing one.
> > >>
> > >> Or just play on one of the other 99.
> > >>
> > >>

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Doctor McKay]

The idea of assigning a server a Steam ID is an interesting one, but we
actually already have a system for this, at least in TF2. If a server is
logged in to Steam, then when you favorite it you could actually favorite
the server's account ID. Then the favorites list would retrieve the
server's current address from Steam based on the account ID.

This could also be an additional benefit to registering your server beyond
just Quickplay participation (which is only relevant if you're not running
custom maps/mods) and event participation (which is only relevant about two
weeks out of the year).


Dr. McKay
www.doctormckay.com


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:

> yeah, problem is, brick wall in front of that guy.
>
> If I have a bunch of favorited servers, and a server drops off due a IP
> change, that server wont see me back. For:
> A: I'm not even aware the server is gone, unless its a special mod that I
> like.
> B: As I have enough other favorites, I wont be searching for servers in
> the internet tab.
> Majority of servers out there run mandatory Pinion nowadays, so searching
> for new servers is a pain anyways.
>
> And NO, I'm NOT looking for EMPTY servers. So I sort on # of players on
> it, and look for a map I like.
>
> But the most important question is: Would I like to keep the server in my
> Fav's, regardless of their IP?
>
> And the answer is yes, for once they made it to my favs, the server proved
> to me to not be a bad one (pinion R**e, lag, crap plugins, etc)
> That is the purpose of my Favorites to me: get back to servers that didn't
> make me a bad experience. If one such changed, for example add Pinion, and
> I didn't like it anymore, I leave and remove it from favs...
>
> That is the "special" part of having a Favorite server list, those servers
> earned to be there.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: martin v 
> >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013, 7:23
> >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can ban HWID too.
> >
> >
> >Let's don't let this topic die.
> >
> >
> >2013/8/28 dan 
> >
> >> On 26/08/2013 04:07, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:
> >>
> >>> I do not agree on your assumption.
> >>>
> >>> Most players use their favorites, they have a bunch of them in there,
> for
> >>> various mods within the game.
> >>> Personally, I have like 80-100 servers in there, I really wouldn't
> notice
> >>> a server dropping off cos they changed IP.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Well you wouldn't really have to notice it would you? Most of the time
> >> Robert must be crying because
> >> you're not on his server you're on one of the other 99 in your
> favourites
> >> list. So your argument
> >> doesn't really solve Robert's problem does it? He wants you to have one
> >> favourite server - his.
> >>
> >> Please, at least use some common sense before replying.
> >>
> >> What assumption do you disagree with? I'm saying in order to have 100
> >> servers in your faves list
> >> you must have found and joined those servers at one point without them
> >> being in that list. You cannot argue
> >> with that, it's a simple fact.
> >>
> >> So, if you've only 99 servers (and it's clear you don't know if you have
> >> 80 or 100) panic!
> >> No don't panic, do exactly what you did to find those 99 servers to find
> >> the missing one.
> >>
> >> Or just play on one of the other 99.
> >>
> >> It's clear from your point of view there are far more servers than
> you'll
> >> ever have the time to play on
> >> even if you spent 24 hours a day playing tf2. There will always be empty
> >> servers if there
> >> are more servers than people. Valve can't do anything with DNS to change
> >> that.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  As there are enough other servers to play on, I would not need to
> "find"
> >>> that server again in the server browser. I just go to another favorite
> >>> server. Why? See pinion story, most non-favorited has pinion in a very
> >>> intrusive way enabled.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Exactly. There's nothing special about servers. Nothing at all that
> makes
> >> them worth chasing 

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Mart-Jan Reeuwijk]

yeah, problem is, brick wall in front of that guy. 

If I have a bunch of favorited servers, and a server drops off due a IP change, 
that server wont see me back. For: 
A: I'm not even aware the server is gone, unless its a special mod that I like.
B: As I have enough other favorites, I wont be searching for servers in the 
internet tab.
Majority of servers out there run mandatory Pinion nowadays, so searching for 
new servers is a pain anyways. 

And NO, I'm NOT looking for EMPTY servers. So I sort on # of players on it, and 
look for a map I like. 

But the most important question is: Would I like to keep the server in my 
Fav's, regardless of their IP? 

And the answer is yes, for once they made it to my favs, the server proved to 
me to not be a bad one (pinion R**e, lag, crap plugins, etc)
That is the purpose of my Favorites to me: get back to servers that didn't make 
me a bad experience. If one such changed, for example add Pinion, and I didn't 
like it anymore, I leave and remove it from favs... 

That is the "special" part of having a Favorite server list, those servers 
earned to be there.




>
> From: martin v 
>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
> 
>Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013, 7:23
>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban 
>HWID too.
> 
>
>Let's don't let this topic die.
>
>
>2013/8/28 dan 
>
>> On 26/08/2013 04:07, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:
>>
>>> I do not agree on your assumption.
>>>
>>> Most players use their favorites, they have a bunch of them in there, for
>>> various mods within the game.
>>> Personally, I have like 80-100 servers in there, I really wouldn't notice
>>> a server dropping off cos they changed IP.
>>>
>>
>> Well you wouldn't really have to notice it would you? Most of the time
>> Robert must be crying because
>> you're not on his server you're on one of the other 99 in your favourites
>> list. So your argument
>> doesn't really solve Robert's problem does it? He wants you to have one
>> favourite server - his.
>>
>> Please, at least use some common sense before replying.
>>
>> What assumption do you disagree with? I'm saying in order to have 100
>> servers in your faves list
>> you must have found and joined those servers at one point without them
>> being in that list. You cannot argue
>> with that, it's a simple fact.
>>
>> So, if you've only 99 servers (and it's clear you don't know if you have
>> 80 or 100) panic!
>> No don't panic, do exactly what you did to find those 99 servers to find
>> the missing one.
>>
>> Or just play on one of the other 99.
>>
>> It's clear from your point of view there are far more servers than you'll
>> ever have the time to play on
>> even if you spent 24 hours a day playing tf2. There will always be empty
>> servers if there
>> are more servers than people. Valve can't do anything with DNS to change
>> that.
>>
>>
>>
>>  As there are enough other servers to play on, I would not need to "find"
>>> that server again in the server browser. I just go to another favorite
>>> server. Why? See pinion story, most non-favorited has pinion in a very
>>> intrusive way enabled.
>>>
>>
>> Exactly. There's nothing special about servers. Nothing at all that makes
>> them worth chasing rather than playing on a new one
>> or a different one. Nothing that makes much sense adding 100 of them to
>> "favourites". You can find another server to play on as easily as
>> you found a server and added it to faves in the first place.
>>
>>
>>
>>  So, after years having a server in somwhere in my favorites, with a vague
>>> familiarity of the server name, ppl won't go looking for a missing server
>>> that changed IP.
>>>
>>> Now apply above to other players. And add to that that often server
>>> owners cant move IP to a new box. They lose their player base there.
>>>
>>
>> No they don't.  The player base is the same.  Whether people originally
>> joined their server via quickplay or the browser, people will again.
>> If there are players around.
>>
>> The server is easy to find as it was before. The guy like you with 100
>> servers in his faves isn't playing on their server much is he?
>> Not if he's forgotten all about the server, the name and everything. If
>> anyone plays on a server regularly e

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[martin v]

Let's don't let this topic die.


2013/8/28 dan 

> On 26/08/2013 04:07, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:
>
>> I do not agree on your assumption.
>>
>> Most players use their favorites, they have a bunch of them in there, for
>> various mods within the game.
>> Personally, I have like 80-100 servers in there, I really wouldn't notice
>> a server dropping off cos they changed IP.
>>
>
> Well you wouldn't really have to notice it would you? Most of the time
> Robert must be crying because
> you're not on his server you're on one of the other 99 in your favourites
> list. So your argument
> doesn't really solve Robert's problem does it? He wants you to have one
> favourite server - his.
>
> Please, at least use some common sense before replying.
>
> What assumption do you disagree with? I'm saying in order to have 100
> servers in your faves list
> you must have found and joined those servers at one point without them
> being in that list. You cannot argue
> with that, it's a simple fact.
>
> So, if you've only 99 servers (and it's clear you don't know if you have
> 80 or 100) panic!
> No don't panic, do exactly what you did to find those 99 servers to find
> the missing one.
>
> Or just play on one of the other 99.
>
> It's clear from your point of view there are far more servers than you'll
> ever have the time to play on
> even if you spent 24 hours a day playing tf2. There will always be empty
> servers if there
> are more servers than people. Valve can't do anything with DNS to change
> that.
>
>
>
>  As there are enough other servers to play on, I would not need to "find"
>> that server again in the server browser. I just go to another favorite
>> server. Why? See pinion story, most non-favorited has pinion in a very
>> intrusive way enabled.
>>
>
> Exactly. There's nothing special about servers. Nothing at all that makes
> them worth chasing rather than playing on a new one
> or a different one. Nothing that makes much sense adding 100 of them to
> "favourites". You can find another server to play on as easily as
> you found a server and added it to faves in the first place.
>
>
>
>  So, after years having a server in somwhere in my favorites, with a vague
>> familiarity of the server name, ppl won't go looking for a missing server
>> that changed IP.
>>
>> Now apply above to other players. And add to that that often server
>> owners cant move IP to a new box. They lose their player base there.
>>
>
> No they don't.  The player base is the same.  Whether people originally
> joined their server via quickplay or the browser, people will again.
> If there are players around.
>
> The server is easy to find as it was before. The guy like you with 100
> servers in his faves isn't playing on their server much is he?
> Not if he's forgotten all about the server, the name and everything. If
> anyone plays on a server regularly enough to care about finding it
> when it goes awol then they know what server they are on.
>
> If you were really involved in the community of one or two servers and
> really loved playing on them, you'd know the community and you'd
> know the servers.
>
> All you have is lots of faves in your list that you've added but rarely if
> ever play on and so, as you say, you really have no
> idea what servers you've added - but you haven't really been a significant
> part of their player base either - because
> one guy can't be a significant part of the player base of 100 servers.
>
>
> --
> Dan
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 26/08/2013 04:07, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:

I do not agree on your assumption.

Most players use their favorites, they have a bunch of them in there, for 
various mods within the game.
Personally, I have like 80-100 servers in there, I really wouldn't notice a 
server dropping off cos they changed IP.


Well you wouldn't really have to notice it would you? Most of the time 
Robert must be crying because
you're not on his server you're on one of the other 99 in your 
favourites list. So your argument
doesn't really solve Robert's problem does it? He wants you to have one 
favourite server - his.


Please, at least use some common sense before replying.

What assumption do you disagree with? I'm saying in order to have 100 
servers in your faves list
you must have found and joined those servers at one point without them 
being in that list. You cannot argue

with that, it's a simple fact.

So, if you've only 99 servers (and it's clear you don't know if you have 
80 or 100) panic!
No don't panic, do exactly what you did to find those 99 servers to find 
the missing one.


Or just play on one of the other 99.

It's clear from your point of view there are far more servers than 
you'll ever have the time to play on
even if you spent 24 hours a day playing tf2. There will always be empty 
servers if there
are more servers than people. Valve can't do anything with DNS to change 
that.




As there are enough other servers to play on, I would not need to "find" that 
server again in the server browser. I just go to another favorite server. Why? See pinion 
story, most non-favorited has pinion in a very intrusive way enabled.


Exactly. There's nothing special about servers. Nothing at all that 
makes them worth chasing rather than playing on a new one
or a different one. Nothing that makes much sense adding 100 of them to 
"favourites". You can find another server to play on as easily as

you found a server and added it to faves in the first place.



So, after years having a server in somwhere in my favorites, with a vague 
familiarity of the server name, ppl won't go looking for a missing server that 
changed IP.

Now apply above to other players. And add to that that often server owners cant 
move IP to a new box. They lose their player base there.


No they don't.  The player base is the same.  Whether people originally 
joined their server via quickplay or the browser, people will again.

If there are players around.

The server is easy to find as it was before. The guy like you with 100 
servers in his faves isn't playing on their server much is he?
Not if he's forgotten all about the server, the name and everything. If 
anyone plays on a server regularly enough to care about finding it

when it goes awol then they know what server they are on.

If you were really involved in the community of one or two servers and 
really loved playing on them, you'd know the community and you'd

know the servers.

All you have is lots of faves in your list that you've added but rarely 
if ever play on and so, as you say, you really have no
idea what servers you've added - but you haven't really been a 
significant part of their player base either - because

one guy can't be a significant part of the player base of 100 servers.

--
Dan

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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 26/08/2013 04:36, Robert Paulson wrote:

Sure a server will recover, but it will take as long as
half a year and sometimes won't even return to its original size.


Oh please. That's just utter nonsense.

If that were true no one could ever start a new server.

--
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Yun Huang Yong]

When I last had to change server IPs I used this plugin on the old 
server: https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=1440970


Left it running for about 2 weeks on the old server. We did lose a few 
players but the vast majority migrated over, enough that the new server 
continued to be full almost as much as the old one had been.


I shut down the old server after 2 weeks as no one was joining it anymore.

Whilst I agree having SRV support or some other "permanent" addressing 
solution would be great migrating IPs is not really as dire a problem as 
some would make out.


On 28/08/2013 10:17 AM, Jake Forrester wrote:

This, or SRV support are both acceptable solutions.  Then we can finally
drop our current host... as it stands now the IPs are worth more than
re-seeding all our servers when our provider goes down every other day.

100% support on this issue.

On 8/27/2013 9:52 AM, Andrew Simpson wrote:

It seems to me that the more logical thing to do would be to give servers a
permanent SteamID, and then give the client the ability to connect to a
SteamID (as well as directly to an IP, you want to still support offline
LANs), save the SteamID of a server in the favourites, etc. The client
could then retrieve the actual IP/port of a server by querying Steam.

Then you can easily change the server IP and port of a server without any
messing around with DNS records or anything like that, automatically at the
same time you report to the master server.

Steam already does something similar for peer-to-peer games, Steam provides
an API for networking by sending messages to a SteamID, and it sends UDP
packets under the covers.
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Jake Forrester]

This, or SRV support are both acceptable solutions.  Then we can finally
drop our current host... as it stands now the IPs are worth more than
re-seeding all our servers when our provider goes down every other day.

100% support on this issue.

On 8/27/2013 9:52 AM, Andrew Simpson wrote:
> It seems to me that the more logical thing to do would be to give servers a
> permanent SteamID, and then give the client the ability to connect to a
> SteamID (as well as directly to an IP, you want to still support offline
> LANs), save the SteamID of a server in the favourites, etc. The client
> could then retrieve the actual IP/port of a server by querying Steam.
>
> Then you can easily change the server IP and port of a server without any
> messing around with DNS records or anything like that, automatically at the
> same time you report to the master server.
>
> Steam already does something similar for peer-to-peer games, Steam provides
> an API for networking by sending messages to a SteamID, and it sends UDP
> packets under the covers.
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-- 

Jake Forrester
Freelance Web Developer/Designer &
Joomla Enthusiast
e: j...@ranndesigns.com


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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Andrew Simpson]

It seems to me that the more logical thing to do would be to give servers a
permanent SteamID, and then give the client the ability to connect to a
SteamID (as well as directly to an IP, you want to still support offline
LANs), save the SteamID of a server in the favourites, etc. The client
could then retrieve the actual IP/port of a server by querying Steam.

Then you can easily change the server IP and port of a server without any
messing around with DNS records or anything like that, automatically at the
same time you report to the master server.

Steam already does something similar for peer-to-peer games, Steam provides
an API for networking by sending messages to a SteamID, and it sends UDP
packets under the covers.
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[John Runyon]

Better yet, add SRV support for (deity)'s sake, and save it however it's 
written.

Mart-Jan Reeuwijk  wrote:

>That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name like
>
>srv1.community.xxx:27015
>srv1.community.xxx:27020
>srv2.community.xxx:27015
>etc
>instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the 
>server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a new 
>hardware server won't lose their players. 
>
>I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and that 
>those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their servers. 
>
>Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default 
>opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of groups 
>can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who have few 
>groups can opt in and exclude a few groups. 
>
>Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify quite 
>easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all problems 
>with "saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that tab, favorite 
>all they want, and get on. 
>
>
>
>
>>
>> From: ElitePowered . 
>>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
>> 
>>Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
>>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can 
>>ban HWID too.
>> 
>>
>>You can just use subdomains.
>>
>>
>>On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad  wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with the domain suggestion.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>>>
>>> > When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made it so
>>> > players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads. Since they
>>> > require 100% completion there's almost no chance of getting paid from
>>> > quickplay players.
>>> >
>>> > I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving servers by
>>> > domain name.
>>> >
>>> > How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the toilet
>>> > because changing IPs would kill off your population? How many of you need
>>> > DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a new IP would result in
>>> > more player loss than a DDoS?
>>> >
>>> > This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and would
>>> > be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what Valve
>>> should
>>> > be working on next.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk >> > >wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number instead
>>> > of
>>> > > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or w/e
>>> > > changes it, it should not have a big impact on tracability, multiple
>>> > HWID's
>>> > > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
>>> customize
>>> > > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver
>>> > > versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use for
>>> > generating a
>>> > > HWID.
>>> > >
>>> > > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much
>>> benefit
>>> > > from.
>>> > >
>>> > > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for
>>> Valve
>>> > > to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI. (apart
>>> > > from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I rather see the
>>> > > pinion crap end.)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > > From: Scruppy Dawg 
>>> > > >To: Bjorn Wielens ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
>>> server
>>> > > mailing list 
>>> > > >Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 13:50
>>> > > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
>>> > > can ban HWID too.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they co

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Frank]

I would love to see Valve finally step up after all these years and let you
assign an IP#/port directly to a domain and change it with it to carry over
upon a needed change. 

I've had to do an IP# change about several months ago and the server was
widely popular, still is but people are still to this day coming in and
saying "Wow I lost it on my friends list/history and I just thought it died
and I didn't know you guys had a website blah blah blah.." Same thing over
and over again yet they wouldn't have missed a beat had we had this support
years ago.

As for the main discussion on HWID, I don't have that much of an issue to
need this not sure there is a huge need either.


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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

For someone claiming to be so logical there is distinct lack of reasoning.

"I think I played TF2 for at least 2000 hours, possibly 3000 before
quickplay appeared on servers that were nearly always full.How did those
people join the server? Do you think they all had comp sci phds or
something?"

Before Valve shrunk the size of the TF2 Browse button by 1/2 and stuffed it
under Quickplay and MvM, everyone who played TF2 was forced to learn how to
use the browser. Sure a server will recover, but it will take as long as
half a year and sometimes won't even return to its original size. Even if
someone knows how to favorite a server, who wants to dig it out of 10,000
TF2 servers? Personally I wouldn't want to either.

I will try to make this my last reply to you, because your claims can all
be refuted with the same answer: All the assumptions you keep making don't
line up with the evidence everyone here is telling you.



On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 7:36 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 25/08/2013 23:37, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
>> "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
>> aren't lazy (lol?).
>>
>
> I wouldn't go as far as saying they are smart.
> I just think they are no more or less dumb than you.
>
> And specifically I'm not assuming they are smart enough to join a server,
> I've a ton of evidence that shows they must be smart enough to do it.
>
> As I asked, can you find and join a server? If so, what makes you think
> you have some special skill that others do not?
>
> I think I played TF2 for at least 2000 hours, possibly 3000 before
> quickplay appeared
> on servers that were nearly always full.
>
> How did those people join the server? Do you think they all
> had comp sci phds or something?
>
> No. Any buffoon can play a computer game. Just as any buffoon can run a
> server.
>
> As I said, some of those servers I played on right at the beginning are
> still there. They appear
> right at the top of the server browser if I sort by ping, just
> as they did 6 years ago. I can see they are there from their
> description which has remained more or less the same for all
> that time.
>
> The company running them has a presence on the web that if they
> "disappeared" you could go and see why.
>
> There's no need at all for them to appear in the history or favourites
> section
> to find them.
>
> Besides I remain unconvinced that a server which has
> changed host or other significant things like that, should be seen as the
> same server in any case.
>
> Indeed, if you want to go down the route of having some kind of identifier
> for a servers I think Valve
> would be wise to consider when that identifier should change. Seems to me
> that
> a server being on the same IP shouldn't just been seen as the same server
> that someone added to their
> favourites if significant changes to the config or installation have
> occurred.
>
> If you want to blather on about community, you can't
> in the next breath claim that your entire community will disappear
> the moment your server changes ip address.
>
> If you have any semblance of a community attached or related to your
> server,
> you should have plenty of ways of communicating information about changes
> to the server
> to them and they should have plenty of motivation to look for you.
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
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> please visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Mart-Jan Reeuwijk]

I do not agree on your assumption. 

Most players use their favorites, they have a bunch of them in there, for 
various mods within the game. 
Personally, I have like 80-100 servers in there, I really wouldn't notice a 
server dropping off cos they changed IP. As there are enough other servers to 
play on, I would not need to "find" that server again in the server browser. I 
just go to another favorite server. Why? See pinion story, most non-favorited 
has pinion in a very intrusive way enabled.

So, after years having a server in somwhere in my favorites, with a vague 
familiarity of the server name, ppl won't go looking for a missing server that 
changed IP. 

Now apply above to other players. And add to that that often server owners cant 
move IP to a new box. They lose their player base there.





>
> From: dan 
>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
> 
>Sent: Monday, 26 August 2013, 4:36
>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban 
>HWID too.
> 
>
>On 25/08/2013 23:37, Robert Paulson wrote:
>> I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
>> "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
>> aren't lazy (lol?).
>
>I wouldn't go as far as saying they are smart.
>I just think they are no more or less dumb than you.
>
>And specifically I'm not assuming they are smart enough to join a server,
>I've a ton of evidence that shows they must be smart enough to do it.
>
>As I asked, can you find and join a server? If so, what makes you think
>you have some special skill that others do not?
>
>I think I played TF2 for at least 2000 hours, possibly 3000 before 
>quickplay appeared
>on servers that were nearly always full.
>
>How did those people join the server? Do you think they all
>had comp sci phds or something?
>
>No. Any buffoon can play a computer game. Just as any buffoon can run a 
>server.
>
>As I said, some of those servers I played on right at the beginning are 
>still there. They appear
>right at the top of the server browser if I sort by ping, just
>as they did 6 years ago. I can see they are there from their
>description which has remained more or less the same for all
>that time.
>
>The company running them has a presence on the web that if they
>"disappeared" you could go and see why.
>
>There's no need at all for them to appear in the history or favourites 
>section
>to find them.
>
>Besides I remain unconvinced that a server which has
>changed host or other significant things like that, should be seen as 
>the same server in any case.
>
>Indeed, if you want to go down the route of having some kind of 
>identifier for a servers I think Valve
>would be wise to consider when that identifier should change. Seems to 
>me that
>a server being on the same IP shouldn't just been seen as the same 
>server that someone added to their
>favourites if significant changes to the config or installation have 
>occurred.
>
>If you want to blather on about community, you can't
>in the next breath claim that your entire community will disappear
>the moment your server changes ip address.
>
>If you have any semblance of a community attached or related to your server,
>you should have plenty of ways of communicating information about 
>changes to the server
>to them and they should have plenty of motivation to look for you.
>
>-- 
>Dan
>
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>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 25/08/2013 23:37, Robert Paulson wrote:

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
"logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
aren't lazy (lol?).


I wouldn't go as far as saying they are smart.
I just think they are no more or less dumb than you.

And specifically I'm not assuming they are smart enough to join a server,
I've a ton of evidence that shows they must be smart enough to do it.

As I asked, can you find and join a server? If so, what makes you think
you have some special skill that others do not?

I think I played TF2 for at least 2000 hours, possibly 3000 before 
quickplay appeared

on servers that were nearly always full.

How did those people join the server? Do you think they all
had comp sci phds or something?

No. Any buffoon can play a computer game. Just as any buffoon can run a 
server.


As I said, some of those servers I played on right at the beginning are 
still there. They appear

right at the top of the server browser if I sort by ping, just
as they did 6 years ago. I can see they are there from their
description which has remained more or less the same for all
that time.

The company running them has a presence on the web that if they
"disappeared" you could go and see why.

There's no need at all for them to appear in the history or favourites 
section

to find them.

Besides I remain unconvinced that a server which has
changed host or other significant things like that, should be seen as 
the same server in any case.


Indeed, if you want to go down the route of having some kind of 
identifier for a servers I think Valve
would be wise to consider when that identifier should change. Seems to 
me that
a server being on the same IP shouldn't just been seen as the same 
server that someone added to their
favourites if significant changes to the config or installation have 
occurred.


If you want to blather on about community, you can't
in the next breath claim that your entire community will disappear
the moment your server changes ip address.

If you have any semblance of a community attached or related to your server,
you should have plenty of ways of communicating information about 
changes to the server

to them and they should have plenty of motivation to look for you.

--
Dan

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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

You don't have to ask Valve to get someone's hardware ID. It could be found
via a trojan or by brute force.

It would be trivial for a cheater to start tweaking his mac address (likely
one of the hardware ID components) until Steam tells him that it is
associated with an innocent SteamID or until Steamguard pops up, telling
him that he is safe from hardware ID bans.



On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 7:07 PM, Scruppy Dawg  wrote:

> They would never know what your HWID was to begin with. Read the post above
> by Erik-jan Riemers.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Robert Paulson  >wrote:
>
> > I know it is rude to derail a thread, but when Valve's attention could be
> > pointed to more important and attainable goal, I have to say something.
> >
> > Hardware ID will never be public because server has to trust the client
> and
> > thus it is spoofable. Just because it says "Hardware" doesn't mean the ID
> > sent to Steam can't be changed. If this ever becomes a thing, look
> forward
> > to cheaters spoofing your hardware ID and getting you banned.
> >
> > DNS favorites is a much more important and attainable goal.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Erik-jan Riemers 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > If valve stores the hwid, it would be much nicer to just ask "What
> other
> > > steamid's does this user use too?" and valve could reply, not even
> > sending
> > > out the hwid to the middle person.
> > > We could query that as a api service, and would also help with trade
> > > banning and the likes or ban evasion. Sure it might be more traffic,
> but
> > > in the end if the storm calms down, so will that (until they "cheaters"
> > > find something new)
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > > [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> > > Paulson
> > > Sent: maandag 26 augustus 2013 0:38
> > > To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> > can
> > > ban HWID too.
> > >
> > > For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past
> couple
> > > of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like
> > this:
> > >
> > > "Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone
> else
> > > cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any
> > > improvements especially those helping non-Valve servers should be
> ignored
> > > because it helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the
> > same
> > > way I do so no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve
> > > server."
> > >
> > > I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all
> > the
> > > "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart
> and
> > > aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
> > > people keep requesting DNS.
> > >
> > > If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first
> > > place then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP
> > > changed.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
> > >
> > > > past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you
> two.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it
> > > > >> doesn't matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen
> > > > >> this problem affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally
> > > > >> off quickplay such as Azelphur's Surf server.
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > Who cares?
> > > > >
> > > > > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users have never and will
> > > > > never connect to your server)  are really as stupid as you hope
> (and
> > > > > as I said, if you think you know how to do something that a lot of
> > > > > people don't then you've got a rude awake

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Scruppy Dawg]

They would never know what your HWID was to begin with. Read the post above
by Erik-jan Riemers.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Robert Paulson wrote:

> I know it is rude to derail a thread, but when Valve's attention could be
> pointed to more important and attainable goal, I have to say something.
>
> Hardware ID will never be public because server has to trust the client and
> thus it is spoofable. Just because it says "Hardware" doesn't mean the ID
> sent to Steam can't be changed. If this ever becomes a thing, look forward
> to cheaters spoofing your hardware ID and getting you banned.
>
> DNS favorites is a much more important and attainable goal.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Erik-jan Riemers 
> wrote:
>
> > If valve stores the hwid, it would be much nicer to just ask "What other
> > steamid's does this user use too?" and valve could reply, not even
> sending
> > out the hwid to the middle person.
> > We could query that as a api service, and would also help with trade
> > banning and the likes or ban evasion. Sure it might be more traffic, but
> > in the end if the storm calms down, so will that (until they "cheaters"
> > find something new)
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> > Paulson
> > Sent: maandag 26 augustus 2013 0:38
> > To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can
> > ban HWID too.
> >
> > For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past couple
> > of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like
> this:
> >
> > "Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone else
> > cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any
> > improvements especially those helping non-Valve servers should be ignored
> > because it helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the
> same
> > way I do so no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve
> > server."
> >
> > I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all
> the
> > "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
> > aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
> > people keep requesting DNS.
> >
> > If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first
> > place then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP
> > changed.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
> >
> > > past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it
> > > >> doesn't matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen
> > > >> this problem affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally
> > > >> off quickplay such as Azelphur's Surf server.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Who cares?
> > > >
> > > > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users have never and will
> > > > never connect to your server)  are really as stupid as you hope (and
> > > > as I said, if you think you know how to do something that a lot of
> > > > people don't then you've got a rude awakening coming up at some
> > > > point in your life) then clearly they find another server to play
> > > > on.
> > > >
> > > > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where
> > > > your server went?
> > > >
> > > > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can
> > > > run plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because
> > > > they used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your
> > > > users won't have switched it off because they are all, according to
> > > > you, conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> > > >
> > > > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join 

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Scruppy Dawg]

This is pretty much the idea I was going for. I'm glad someone finally
figured out what I may of been not so eloquently saying.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:42 PM, Erik-jan Riemers  wrote:

> If valve stores the hwid, it would be much nicer to just ask "What other
> steamid's does this user use too?" and valve could reply, not even sending
> out the hwid to the middle person.
> We could query that as a api service, and would also help with trade
> banning and the likes or ban evasion. Sure it might be more traffic, but
> in the end if the storm calms down, so will that (until they "cheaters"
> find something new)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> Paulson
> Sent: maandag 26 augustus 2013 0:38
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
> ban HWID too.
>
> For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past couple
> of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like this:
>
> "Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone else
> cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any
> improvements especially those helping non-Valve servers should be ignored
> because it helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the same
> way I do so no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve
> server."
>
> I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
> "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
> aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
> people keep requesting DNS.
>
> If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first
> place then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP
> changed.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
>
> > past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
> >
> > > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> > >
> > >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it
> > >> doesn't matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen
> > >> this problem affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally
> > >> off quickplay such as Azelphur's Surf server.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Who cares?
> > >
> > > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users have never and will
> > > never connect to your server)  are really as stupid as you hope (and
> > > as I said, if you think you know how to do something that a lot of
> > > people don't then you've got a rude awakening coming up at some
> > > point in your life) then clearly they find another server to play
> > > on.
> > >
> > > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where
> > > your server went?
> > >
> > > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can
> > > run plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> > >
> > > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because
> > > they used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your
> > > users won't have switched it off because they are all, according to
> > > you, conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> > >
> > > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask
> > > and we'll talk you through the process, But don't sit there trying
> > > to kid the list that most users are dumb.
> > >
> > > If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that
> > > you
> > are
> > > changing
> > > ip address to the small group of people that use your server
> > > regularly, again, ask away for ideas.
> > > But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> > > server without this feature.
> > >
> > > If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was
> > > nothing particulary special about that server.
> > >
> > > Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that
> > > has
> > any
> > > characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
> > > Except stuff like ping a

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

I know it is rude to derail a thread, but when Valve's attention could be
pointed to more important and attainable goal, I have to say something.

Hardware ID will never be public because server has to trust the client and
thus it is spoofable. Just because it says "Hardware" doesn't mean the ID
sent to Steam can't be changed. If this ever becomes a thing, look forward
to cheaters spoofing your hardware ID and getting you banned.

DNS favorites is a much more important and attainable goal.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Erik-jan Riemers  wrote:

> If valve stores the hwid, it would be much nicer to just ask "What other
> steamid's does this user use too?" and valve could reply, not even sending
> out the hwid to the middle person.
> We could query that as a api service, and would also help with trade
> banning and the likes or ban evasion. Sure it might be more traffic, but
> in the end if the storm calms down, so will that (until they "cheaters"
> find something new)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> Paulson
> Sent: maandag 26 augustus 2013 0:38
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
> ban HWID too.
>
> For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past couple
> of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like this:
>
> "Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone else
> cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any
> improvements especially those helping non-Valve servers should be ignored
> because it helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the same
> way I do so no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve
> server."
>
> I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
> "logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
> aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
> people keep requesting DNS.
>
> If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first
> place then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP
> changed.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
>
> > past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
> >
> > > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> > >
> > >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it
> > >> doesn't matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen
> > >> this problem affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally
> > >> off quickplay such as Azelphur's Surf server.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Who cares?
> > >
> > > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users have never and will
> > > never connect to your server)  are really as stupid as you hope (and
> > > as I said, if you think you know how to do something that a lot of
> > > people don't then you've got a rude awakening coming up at some
> > > point in your life) then clearly they find another server to play
> > > on.
> > >
> > > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where
> > > your server went?
> > >
> > > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can
> > > run plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> > >
> > > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because
> > > they used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your
> > > users won't have switched it off because they are all, according to
> > > you, conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> > >
> > > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask
> > > and we'll talk you through the process, But don't sit there trying
> > > to kid the list that most users are dumb.
> > >
> > > If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that
> > > you
> > are
> > > changing
> > > ip address to the small group of people that use your server
> > > regularly, again, ask away for ideas.
> > > But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> > > server without this feature.
> > >
> &g

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Erik-jan Riemers]

If valve stores the hwid, it would be much nicer to just ask "What other
steamid's does this user use too?" and valve could reply, not even sending
out the hwid to the middle person.
We could query that as a api service, and would also help with trade
banning and the likes or ban evasion. Sure it might be more traffic, but
in the end if the storm calms down, so will that (until they "cheaters"
find something new)

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Paulson
Sent: maandag 26 augustus 2013 0:38
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
ban HWID too.

For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past couple
of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like this:

"Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone else
cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any
improvements especially those helping non-Valve servers should be ignored
because it helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the same
way I do so no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve
server."

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
"logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
people keep requesting DNS.

If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first
place then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP
changed.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:

> past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
>
> > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> >
> >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it
> >> doesn't matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen
> >> this problem affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally
> >> off quickplay such as Azelphur's Surf server.
> >>
> >
> > Who cares?
> >
> > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users have never and will
> > never connect to your server)  are really as stupid as you hope (and
> > as I said, if you think you know how to do something that a lot of
> > people don't then you've got a rude awakening coming up at some
> > point in your life) then clearly they find another server to play
> > on.
> >
> > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where
> > your server went?
> >
> > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can
> > run plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> >
> > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because
> > they used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your
> > users won't have switched it off because they are all, according to
> > you, conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> >
> > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask
> > and we'll talk you through the process, But don't sit there trying
> > to kid the list that most users are dumb.
> >
> > If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that
> > you
> are
> > changing
> > ip address to the small group of people that use your server
> > regularly, again, ask away for ideas.
> > But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> > server without this feature.
> >
> > If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was
> > nothing particulary special about that server.
> >
> > Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that
> > has
> any
> > characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
> > Except stuff like ping and the network connection to it, and whether
> > it's got people on it and whether it's running a map I want to play.
> > You know, all the stuff that the server browser tells you when you
> > search for a server.
> >
> > So, perhaps I join servers from history, perhaps I join from them
> > from
> the
> > main server list. The point
> > is, if one server disappears it doesn't make diddly squat difference
> > to the game. There are plenty of other servers. OTOH, if a new
> > server appears, I'm as likely to play on that as any other.
> >
> > Wh

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

For those of you who don't pay attention to his posts for the past couple
of years, the line of thinking from dan needaxeo goes something like this:

"Once I put up a plain server and no one joined it because everyone else
cheats and they couldn't possibly have a better server. So any improvements
especially those helping non-Valve servers should be ignored because it
helps cheaters trick players. Also every player thinks the same way I do so
no one ever has a reason to join any server over a Valve server."

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but you can make all the
"logical" assumptions you want and assume that most players are smart and
aren't lazy (lol?). It just doesn't line up with reality which is why
people keep requesting DNS.

If there was nothing special about any particular server in the first place
then there wouldn't be a large population drop every time the IP changed.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:

> past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:
>
> > On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
> >
> >> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it doesn't
> >> matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen this problem
> >> affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally off quickplay such
> >> as
> >> Azelphur's Surf server.
> >>
> >
> > Who cares?
> >
> > If "most users" (and let's face it, most users
> > have never and will never connect to your server)  are really
> > as stupid as you hope (and as I said, if you think you know
> > how to do something that a lot of people don't then you've got a rude
> > awakening
> > coming up at some point in your life) then clearly they find another
> > server to play on.
> >
> > What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where your
> > server went?
> >
> > Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can run
> > plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
> >
> > Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because they
> > used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your users
> > won't have switched it off because they are all, according to you,
> > conveniently too stupid to do anything)
> >
> > So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask and
> > we'll talk you through the process,
> > But don't sit there trying to kid the list that most users are dumb.
> >
> > If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that you
> are
> > changing
> > ip address to the small group of people that use your server regularly,
> > again, ask away for ideas.
> > But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> > server without this feature.
> >
> > If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was
> > nothing particulary special about that server.
> >
> > Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that has
> any
> > characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
> > Except stuff like ping and the network connection to it, and whether it's
> > got people on it and whether it's running a map
> > I want to play. You know, all the stuff that the server browser tells you
> > when you search for a server.
> >
> > So, perhaps I join servers from history, perhaps I join from them from
> the
> > main server list. The point
> > is, if one server disappears it doesn't make diddly squat difference to
> > the game. There are plenty of
> > other servers. OTOH, if a new server appears, I'm as likely to play on
> > that as any other.
> >
> > Whereas you are trying to kid us that a server that is getting ddosed or
> > that is on a crap host with lag spikes
> > doesn't matter because your dumb users put up with it? Yet that's the
> > reason you want the feature?
> > Start talking sense.
> >
> > --
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> > __**_
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds_linux<
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
> >
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Eli Witt]

past time to take this off the mailing list, thanks in advance you two.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:18 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it doesn't
>> matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen this problem
>> affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally off quickplay such
>> as
>> Azelphur's Surf server.
>>
>
> Who cares?
>
> If "most users" (and let's face it, most users
> have never and will never connect to your server)  are really
> as stupid as you hope (and as I said, if you think you know
> how to do something that a lot of people don't then you've got a rude
> awakening
> coming up at some point in your life) then clearly they find another
> server to play on.
>
> What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where your
> server went?
>
> Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can run
> plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?
>
> Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because they
> used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your users
> won't have switched it off because they are all, according to you,
> conveniently too stupid to do anything)
>
> So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask and
> we'll talk you through the process,
> But don't sit there trying to kid the list that most users are dumb.
>
> If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that you are
> changing
> ip address to the small group of people that use your server regularly,
> again, ask away for ideas.
> But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken
> server without this feature.
>
> If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was
> nothing particulary special about that server.
>
> Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that has any
> characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
> Except stuff like ping and the network connection to it, and whether it's
> got people on it and whether it's running a map
> I want to play. You know, all the stuff that the server browser tells you
> when you search for a server.
>
> So, perhaps I join servers from history, perhaps I join from them from the
> main server list. The point
> is, if one server disappears it doesn't make diddly squat difference to
> the game. There are plenty of
> other servers. OTOH, if a new server appears, I'm as likely to play on
> that as any other.
>
> Whereas you are trying to kid us that a server that is getting ddosed or
> that is on a crap host with lag spikes
> doesn't matter because your dumb users put up with it? Yet that's the
> reason you want the feature?
> Start talking sense.
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 25/08/2013 21:50, Robert Paulson wrote:

You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it doesn't
matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen this problem
affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally off quickplay such as
Azelphur's Surf server.


Who cares?

If "most users" (and let's face it, most users
have never and will never connect to your server)  are really
as stupid as you hope (and as I said, if you think you know
how to do something that a lot of people don't then you've got a rude 
awakening
coming up at some point in your life) then clearly they find another 
server to play on.


What do you imagine they do? Sit in a pool of tears wondering where your 
server went?


Do you not have a web site or a server? You know a server that can run
plugins and pop up information, on the MOTD and so on?

Perhaps a lot of servers find their users switched off MOTD because they
used it for something no one wants to read.  (Of course your users
won't have switched it off because they are all, according to you, 
conveniently too stupid to do anything)


So, you know, if /you/ can't find or join a server feel free to ask and 
we'll talk you through the process,

But don't sit there trying to kid the list that most users are dumb.

If you're really struggling to think of ways of communicating that you 
are changing
ip address to the small group of people that use your server regularly, 
again, ask away for ideas.
But don't sit there trying to kid us that you cannot fix your broken 
server without this feature.


If a server empties when it changes IP then self-evidently there was 
nothing particulary special about that server.


Personally, I cannot think of a single server on the TF2 list that has 
any characteristic that would make me join it rather than another.
Except stuff like ping and the network connection to it, and whether 
it's got people on it and whether it's running a map
I want to play. You know, all the stuff that the server browser tells 
you when you search for a server.


So, perhaps I join servers from history, perhaps I join from them from 
the main server list. The point
is, if one server disappears it doesn't make diddly squat difference to 
the game. There are plenty of
other servers. OTOH, if a new server appears, I'm as likely to play on 
that as any other.


Whereas you are trying to kid us that a server that is getting ddosed or 
that is on a crap host with lag spikes
doesn't matter because your dumb users put up with it? Yet that's the 
reason you want the feature?

Start talking sense.

--
Dan


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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

Are you just here to troll hlds?

You just showed you can't even read. "The idea that someone only joins a
server from the favourites list?...How did they join the server to
add it to the favourites?" Come back to the mailing list after you've
finished your reading lessons.

You can keep arguing about how "logical" your thinking is but it doesn't
matter because it doesn't line up with reality. I've seen this problem
affect dozens of servers, even those that are totally off quickplay such as
Azelphur's Surf server.



On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 1:35 PM, dan  wrote:

> On 25/08/2013 21:12, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> Any server owner who has experienced this can tell you that most players
>> never figure out an IP change every time even on the most popular servers
>>
>> There are many "logical" explanations for this. Players might only go off
>> their histories list and do not understand the concept of an IP. Or they
>> might only use the favorites popup when you leave a server. Or they would
>> just assume the server shut down and find the task of searching through
>> thousands of servers too daunting.
>>
>
> I'm sure "most players" are at least as intelligent as you, if not more so.
> I see no evidence to explain why you can find a server and they can't
>
> Feel free to explain your vast intellect, but I'm sure us mere mortals
> will find
> your server if we need to, however much you believe otherwise.
>
> The idea that someone only joins a server from the favourites list?
>
> Now, come on. Think about that Einstein. How did they join the server to
> add it to the favourites? If they did that, they can do it again.
>
>
>  Most players will tolerate small imperfections in older servers. Users are
>> far more likely to tolerate occasional ddos and the increasing lag spikes
>>
>
> Well, then there's no need for you to switch host or change IP then, is
> there?
>
> Don't join a debating society.
>
>
> --
> Dan
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 25/08/2013 21:12, Robert Paulson wrote:

Any server owner who has experienced this can tell you that most players
never figure out an IP change every time even on the most popular servers

There are many "logical" explanations for this. Players might only go off
their histories list and do not understand the concept of an IP. Or they
might only use the favorites popup when you leave a server. Or they would
just assume the server shut down and find the task of searching through
thousands of servers too daunting.


I'm sure "most players" are at least as intelligent as you, if not more so.
I see no evidence to explain why you can find a server and they can't

Feel free to explain your vast intellect, but I'm sure us mere mortals 
will find

your server if we need to, however much you believe otherwise.

The idea that someone only joins a server from the favourites list?

Now, come on. Think about that Einstein. How did they join the server to
add it to the favourites? If they did that, they can do it again.


Most players will tolerate small imperfections in older servers. Users are
far more likely to tolerate occasional ddos and the increasing lag spikes


Well, then there's no need for you to switch host or change IP then, is 
there?


Don't join a debating society.

--
Dan

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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

Any server owner who has experienced this can tell you that most players
never figure out an IP change every time even on the most popular servers

There are many "logical" explanations for this. Players might only go off
their histories list and do not understand the concept of an IP. Or they
might only use the favorites popup when you leave a server. Or they would
just assume the server shut down and find the task of searching through
thousands of servers too daunting.

Most players will tolerate small imperfections in older servers. Users are
far more likely to tolerate occasional ddos and the increasing lag spikes
as every update adds CPU usage compared to the hassle of seeding a new IP.
This is an empirical fact that I bet operators here can testify to. Our
oldest servers on slow hardware are always the most populated.

Just because you noticed the same servers having the same name since 2007
doesn't mean most of the players didn't have to wait several months for
their favorite servers to get reseeded after an IP change.

There is no way for DNS favorites to"fuck over the player base" that can't
already be done because the favorites list is not monitored by Valve. It is
supposed to be curated by the player and it is very easy to remove a server
from it.

Banning serial cheaters was already solved by DNS or netblock banning.
People making cheats will simply add methods to randomize their HWID and
make it useless.


On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:21 AM, dan  wrote:

> On 25/08/2013 00:30, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> I would rather ask Valve do it the faster way since they have ignored this
>> request every year it comes up.
>>
>
> Because it's not a problem.
>
> If I play on "Fred's TF2 server" regularly by connecting to it via the
> browser,
> Fred can do what he likes to his IP address.
>
> I notice servers by name / description in the server browser that I played
> on in 2007.
>
> I couldn't tell you if the IP address is the same or not because it
> doesn't matter
> what their IP address is.
>
> Your premise seems to be that most of the people who use your server
> are too dumb to use the browser to find a server they play on regularly
> yet they use the browser. That makes no logical sense.
>
> I'm far more likely to stop playing on a server that is DDOS'd or on a
> crappy host
> simply because these are real problems that affect the gameplay.
>
> I'm pretty sure Valve have thought about it and figured admins would find
> some way to fuck
> over the player base if it were implemented.
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> __**_
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> please visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 25/08/2013 14:31, AnAkIn wrote:

Funny how this has went offtopic.


Well, the topic's more or less answered

1. It seems unlikely hwid is any more permanent than any other 
identifier you can currently ban by.

2. Either way, Valve have seen the feature request.

--
Dan

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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[AnAkIn]

Funny how this has went offtopic.


2013/8/25 dan 

> On 25/08/2013 00:30, Robert Paulson wrote:
>
>> I would rather ask Valve do it the faster way since they have ignored this
>> request every year it comes up.
>>
>
> Because it's not a problem.
>
> If I play on "Fred's TF2 server" regularly by connecting to it via the
> browser,
> Fred can do what he likes to his IP address.
>
> I notice servers by name / description in the server browser that I played
> on in 2007.
>
> I couldn't tell you if the IP address is the same or not because it
> doesn't matter
> what their IP address is.
>
> Your premise seems to be that most of the people who use your server
> are too dumb to use the browser to find a server they play on regularly
> yet they use the browser. That makes no logical sense.
>
> I'm far more likely to stop playing on a server that is DDOS'd or on a
> crappy host
> simply because these are real problems that affect the gameplay.
>
> I'm pretty sure Valve have thought about it and figured admins would find
> some way to fuck
> over the player base if it were implemented.
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
>
>
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> please visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 25/08/2013 00:30, Robert Paulson wrote:

I would rather ask Valve do it the faster way since they have ignored this
request every year it comes up.


Because it's not a problem.

If I play on "Fred's TF2 server" regularly by connecting to it via the 
browser,

Fred can do what he likes to his IP address.

I notice servers by name / description in the server browser that I 
played on in 2007.


I couldn't tell you if the IP address is the same or not because it 
doesn't matter

what their IP address is.

Your premise seems to be that most of the people who use your server
are too dumb to use the browser to find a server they play on regularly
yet they use the browser. That makes no logical sense.

I'm far more likely to stop playing on a server that is DDOS'd or on a 
crappy host

simply because these are real problems that affect the gameplay.

I'm pretty sure Valve have thought about it and figured admins would 
find some way to fuck

over the player base if it were implemented.

--
Dan



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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Zaretti Steve]

There is some trick, like ip fail-over...
 I've got the same IP since 5 years, and changed hardware/server a
douzen of time...

 This said, with the rise of IPv6... I hope dns will be supported.
 IPv6 seems glitchy for basic user... dns will help.

 But this is my opinion.



2013/8/25 ics :
> Having DNS to favorites is being suggested over past 8 years quite few times
> and only thing even near that is TF2's server registration which will tie
> the server reputation to the steam account, so changing ip does not lose the
> reputation your server has gotten (which in it's own way affects quickplay).
>
> -ics
>
> [#OMEGA] - K2 kirjoitti:
>
>> They should just add a server variable containing the dns which server
>> owners can set.
>> Then if people add the server though favourites and such cvar is set, it
>> automatically gets added with the DNS entry instead of the IP. Plus adding
>> servers manually also stores the DNS entry instead of resolved IP Address.
>>
>> This would be a non intrusive change and should work fine.
>>
>> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
>> Von: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Erik-jan
>> Riemers
>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. August 2013 11:34
>> An: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>> Betreff: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
>> ban HWID too.
>>
>> About finding servers easy, use sv_tags. You can search on tags, so in our
>> case they search for "lz" and find all our servers in the browsers easily.
>>
>> Given, I've mentioned the whole dns entry I think 2 or 3 years ago. People
>> suggested multiple solutions, all great but none of them ever made it.
>> Would be easy if you register your server, to add an extra entry called
>> "host" or something which gets stored at valve's place. (I think we can
>> all cope with not storing the port too)
>>
>> We also use subdomains, but that’s hardly used by anyone.  Most people
>> either search on the tag or come random.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mart-Jan
>> Reeuwijk
>> Sent: zondag 25 augustus 2013 1:11
>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
>> ban HWID too.
>>
>> That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name
>> like
>>
>> srv1.community.xxx:27015
>> srv1.community.xxx:27020
>> srv2.community.xxx:27015
>> etc
>> instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the
>> server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a
>> new hardware server won't lose their players.
>>
>> I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and
>> that those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their
>> servers.
>>
>> Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default
>> opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of
>> groups can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who
>> have few groups can opt in and exclude a few groups.
>>
>> Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify
>> quite easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all
>> problems with "saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that
>> tab, favorite all they want, and get on.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> 
>>> From: ElitePowered . 
>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>>> 
>>> Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
>>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
>>
>> can ban HWID too.
>>>
>>>
>>> You can just use subdomains.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[ics]

Having DNS to favorites is being suggested over past 8 years quite few 
times and only thing even near that is TF2's server registration which 
will tie the server reputation to the steam account, so changing ip does 
not lose the reputation your server has gotten (which in it's own way 
affects quickplay).


-ics

[#OMEGA] - K2 kirjoitti:

They should just add a server variable containing the dns which server
owners can set.
Then if people add the server though favourites and such cvar is set, it
automatically gets added with the DNS entry instead of the IP. Plus adding
servers manually also stores the DNS entry instead of resolved IP Address.

This would be a non intrusive change and should work fine.

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Erik-jan
Riemers
Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. August 2013 11:34
An: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Betreff: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
ban HWID too.

About finding servers easy, use sv_tags. You can search on tags, so in our
case they search for "lz" and find all our servers in the browsers easily.

Given, I've mentioned the whole dns entry I think 2 or 3 years ago. People
suggested multiple solutions, all great but none of them ever made it.
Would be easy if you register your server, to add an extra entry called
"host" or something which gets stored at valve's place. (I think we can
all cope with not storing the port too)

We also use subdomains, but that’s hardly used by anyone.  Most people
either search on the tag or come random.

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mart-Jan
Reeuwijk
Sent: zondag 25 augustus 2013 1:11
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
ban HWID too.

That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name
like

srv1.community.xxx:27015
srv1.community.xxx:27020
srv2.community.xxx:27015
etc
instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the
server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a
new hardware server won't lose their players.

I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and
that those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their
servers.

Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default
opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of
groups can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who
have few groups can opt in and exclude a few groups.

Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify
quite easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all
problems with "saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that
tab, favorite all they want, and get on.






From: ElitePowered . 
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list

Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops

can ban HWID too.


You can just use subdomains.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 





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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[[#OMEGA] - K2]

They should just add a server variable containing the dns which server
owners can set. 
Then if people add the server though favourites and such cvar is set, it
automatically gets added with the DNS entry instead of the IP. Plus adding
servers manually also stores the DNS entry instead of resolved IP Address.

This would be a non intrusive change and should work fine.

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Erik-jan
Riemers
Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. August 2013 11:34
An: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Betreff: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
ban HWID too.

About finding servers easy, use sv_tags. You can search on tags, so in our
case they search for "lz" and find all our servers in the browsers easily.

Given, I've mentioned the whole dns entry I think 2 or 3 years ago. People
suggested multiple solutions, all great but none of them ever made it.
Would be easy if you register your server, to add an extra entry called
"host" or something which gets stored at valve's place. (I think we can
all cope with not storing the port too)

We also use subdomains, but that’s hardly used by anyone.  Most people
either search on the tag or come random.

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mart-Jan
Reeuwijk
Sent: zondag 25 augustus 2013 1:11
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
ban HWID too.

That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name
like

srv1.community.xxx:27015
srv1.community.xxx:27020
srv2.community.xxx:27015
etc
instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the
server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a
new hardware server won't lose their players.

I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and
that those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their
servers.

Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default
opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of
groups can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who
have few groups can opt in and exclude a few groups.

Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify
quite easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all
problems with "saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that
tab, favorite all they want, and get on.




>
> From: ElitePowered . 
>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>
>Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
can ban HWID too.
>
>
>You can just use subdomains.
>
>
>On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 
wrote:
>
>> I agree with the domain suggestion.
>>
>>
>> On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>>
>> > When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made
>> > it so players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads.
>> > Since they require 100% completion there's almost no chance of
>> > getting paid from quickplay players.
>> >
>> > I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving
>> > servers by domain name.
>> >
>> > How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the
>> > toilet because changing IPs would kill off your population? How
>> > many of you need DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a
>> > new IP would result in more player loss than a DDoS?
>> >
>> > This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and
>> > would be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what
>> > Valve
>> should
>> > be working on next.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk
>> > > > >wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number
>> > > instead
>> > of
>> > > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker
>> > > or w/e changes it, it should not have a big impact on
>> > > tracability, multiple
>> > HWID's
>> > > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
>> customize
>> > > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting
>> > &

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Erik-jan Riemers]

About finding servers easy, use sv_tags. You can search on tags, so in our
case they search for "lz" and find all our servers in the browsers easily.

Given, I've mentioned the whole dns entry I think 2 or 3 years ago. People
suggested multiple solutions, all great but none of them ever made it.
Would be easy if you register your server, to add an extra entry called
"host" or something which gets stored at valve's place. (I think we can
all cope with not storing the port too)

We also use subdomains, but that’s hardly used by anyone.  Most people
either search on the tag or come random.

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mart-Jan
Reeuwijk
Sent: zondag 25 augustus 2013 1:11
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
ban HWID too.

That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name
like

srv1.community.xxx:27015
srv1.community.xxx:27020
srv2.community.xxx:27015
etc
instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the
server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a
new hardware server won't lose their players.

I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and
that those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their
servers.

Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default
opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of
groups can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who
have few groups can opt in and exclude a few groups.

Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify
quite easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all
problems with "saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that
tab, favorite all they want, and get on.




>
> From: ElitePowered . 
>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>
>Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
can ban HWID too.
>
>
>You can just use subdomains.
>
>
>On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 
wrote:
>
>> I agree with the domain suggestion.
>>
>>
>> On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>>
>> > When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made
>> > it so players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads.
>> > Since they require 100% completion there's almost no chance of
>> > getting paid from quickplay players.
>> >
>> > I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving
>> > servers by domain name.
>> >
>> > How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the
>> > toilet because changing IPs would kill off your population? How
>> > many of you need DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a
>> > new IP would result in more player loss than a DDoS?
>> >
>> > This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and
>> > would be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what
>> > Valve
>> should
>> > be working on next.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk
>> > > > >wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number
>> > > instead
>> > of
>> > > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker
>> > > or w/e changes it, it should not have a big impact on
>> > > tracability, multiple
>> > HWID's
>> > > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
>> customize
>> > > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting
>> > > driver versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use
>> > > for
>> > generating a
>> > > HWID.
>> > >
>> > > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much
>> benefit
>> > > from.
>> > >
>> > > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages
>> > > for
>> Valve
>> > > to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI.
>> > > (apart from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I
>> > > rather see the pinion crap end.)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >___

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

Group IPs would be fine too.

But realistically that is a lot more work for Valve than using domain
names.

- Group IPs needs a new GUI
- Needs to save a lot more data in the cloud.
- Needs to authenticate each server actually belongs to a group.

I would rather ask Valve do it the faster way since they have ignored this
request every year it comes up.

- People don't necessarily want to favorite every server in your group.
- If Steam goes down (which it often does) Group IPs would be down.
Currently favorites do not go down when Steam does and having DNS favorites
would keep this property.
- No need for the master server to authenticate a server actually belongs
to a group.
- Would allow servers without a group to benefit.



On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:

> That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name
> like
>
> srv1.community.xxx:27015
> srv1.community.xxx:27020
> srv2.community.xxx:27015
> etc
> instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the
> server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a
> new hardware server won't lose their players.
>
> I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and
> that those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their
> servers.
>
> Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default
> opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of
> groups can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who have
> few groups can opt in and exclude a few groups.
>
> Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify
> quite easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all
> problems with "saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that
> tab, favorite all they want, and get on.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: ElitePowered . 
> >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
> >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can ban HWID too.
> >
> >
> >You can just use subdomains.
> >
> >
> >On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 
> wrote:
> >
> >> I agree with the domain suggestion.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:
> >>
> >> > When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made it
> so
> >> > players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads. Since
> they
> >> > require 100% completion there's almost no chance of getting paid from
> >> > quickplay players.
> >> >
> >> > I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving
> servers by
> >> > domain name.
> >> >
> >> > How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the
> toilet
> >> > because changing IPs would kill off your population? How many of you
> need
> >> > DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a new IP would result
> in
> >> > more player loss than a DDoS?
> >> >
> >> > This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and
> would
> >> > be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what Valve
> >> should
> >> > be working on next.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk <
> mreeu...@yahoo.com
> >> > >wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number
> instead
> >> > of
> >> > > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or
> w/e
> >> > > changes it, it should not have a big impact on tracability, multiple
> >> > HWID's
> >> > > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
> >> customize
> >> > > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver
> >> > > versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use for
> >> > generating a
> >> > > HWID.
> >> > >
> >> > > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much
> >> benefit
> >> > > from.
> >> > >
> >> > > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for
> >> Valve
> >> > > to implement it, in 

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[ElitePowered .]

It sounds like a neat idea but it's a bit too indepth for our average
players to understand.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 7:10 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:

> That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name
> like
>
> srv1.community.xxx:27015
> srv1.community.xxx:27020
> srv2.community.xxx:27015
> etc
> instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the
> server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a
> new hardware server won't lose their players.
>
> I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and
> that those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their
> servers.
>
> Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default
> opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of
> groups can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who have
> few groups can opt in and exclude a few groups.
>
> Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify
> quite easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all
> problems with "saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that
> tab, favorite all they want, and get on.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: ElitePowered . 
> >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
> >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can ban HWID too.
> >
> >
> >You can just use subdomains.
> >
> >
> >On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 
> wrote:
> >
> >> I agree with the domain suggestion.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:
> >>
> >> > When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made it
> so
> >> > players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads. Since
> they
> >> > require 100% completion there's almost no chance of getting paid from
> >> > quickplay players.
> >> >
> >> > I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving
> servers by
> >> > domain name.
> >> >
> >> > How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the
> toilet
> >> > because changing IPs would kill off your population? How many of you
> need
> >> > DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a new IP would result
> in
> >> > more player loss than a DDoS?
> >> >
> >> > This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and
> would
> >> > be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what Valve
> >> should
> >> > be working on next.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk <
> mreeu...@yahoo.com
> >> > >wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number
> instead
> >> > of
> >> > > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or
> w/e
> >> > > changes it, it should not have a big impact on tracability, multiple
> >> > HWID's
> >> > > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
> >> customize
> >> > > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver
> >> > > versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use for
> >> > generating a
> >> > > HWID.
> >> > >
> >> > > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much
> >> benefit
> >> > > from.
> >> > >
> >> > > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for
> >> Valve
> >> > > to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI.
> (apart
> >> > > from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I rather see
> the
> >> > > pinion crap end.)
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > From: Scruppy Dawg 
> >> > > >To: Bjorn Wielens ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
> >> server
> >> > > mailing list 
> >> > > >Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 13:50
> >> > > >

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Calvin Judy]

You still can't store the dns record for the subdomain in the server 
browser, asshat.


- Original Message - 
From: "ElitePowered ." 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list" 


Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can 
ban HWID too.




That's what a subdomain is sherlock.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 7:05 PM, Calvin Judy  wrote:

I don't think you understand what he means, he wants the server browser 
to
store dns records so players can connect for example 
"server.mydomain.com"


The server browser automatically resolves the dns record, and stores the
ip.


- Original Message - From: "ElitePowered ." <
elitepowe...@gmail.com>

To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list" >
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 7:01 PM

Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops 
can

ban HWID too.


 You can just use subdomains.



On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 
wrote:

 I agree with the domain suggestion.



On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:

> When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made it
> so
> players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads. Since 
> they

> require 100% completion there's almost no chance of getting paid from
> quickplay players.
>
> I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving 
> servers

> by
> domain name.
>
> How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the >
toilet
> because changing IPs would kill off your population? How many of you 
>  >

need
> DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a new IP would result
> in
> more player loss than a DDoS?
>
> This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and >
would
> be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what Valve
should
> be working on next.
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk 
> 
> >wrote:
>
> >
> > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number > >
instead
> of
> > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or 
> >  >

> w/e
> > changes it, it should not have a big impact on tracability, 
> > multiple

> HWID's
> > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
customize
> > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver
> > versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use for
> generating a
> > HWID.
> >
> > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much
benefit
> > from.
> >
> > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for
Valve
> > to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI. > 
> >  >

(apart
> > from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I rather see
> > the
> > pinion crap end.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >_**___
> > > From: Scruppy Dawg 
> > >To: Bjorn Wielens ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
server
> > mailing list 
> > 

>
> > >Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 13:50
> > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server
> > >ops
> > can ban HWID too.
> > >
> > >
> > >As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could 
> > > >

> >make
> > that
> > >available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing 
> > >it.

They
> > >would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when 
> > > >

> >you
> join
> > >a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
> > >
> > >I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID
associated
> > >with it banned.
> > >
> > >SteamID A with HWID  is banned from my servers.
> > >
> > >But later if SteamID B joins with HWID  a check is done on 
> > >auth

and
> > >they are not allowed to join.
> > >
> > >I would have to think most of this logging is already in place and
> > >it
> > would
> > >just be a matter of changing the server and auth method.
> > >
> > >
> > >On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Bjorn Wielens 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> That wouldn't work. unless Valve implements a global ban system
where
> > they
> > >> track HWIDs and such for bans (which they never will do) , the >
> >> HWID
> > would
> > &g

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Mart-Jan Reeuwijk]

That is not what they mean. They mean that the client saves it by DNS name like

srv1.community.xxx:27015
srv1.community.xxx:27020
srv2.community.xxx:27015
etc
instead that that gets resolved to IP, and then saved as a IP:port in the 
server list. They want the clients to save it by URL:port, so moving to a new 
hardware server won't lose their players. 

I rather see that comm's can add servers by IP to their Steam group, and that 
those get into a tab in the steam browser for easy finding their servers. 

Let the client be able to enable or disable this (choose default 
opt-in/opt-out, then per group in or out), so ppl with a huge list of groups 
can opt out default, and include only a few groups, and ppl who have few groups 
can opt in and exclude a few groups. 

Server owners can easily update the list of servers, Valve can verify quite 
easily on their backend if its really a server, and it solves all problems with 
"saving" servers in the favorites, for they can go to that tab, favorite all 
they want, and get on. 




>
> From: ElitePowered . 
>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
> 
>Sent: Sunday, 25 August 2013, 1:01
>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban 
>HWID too.
> 
>
>You can just use subdomains.
>
>
>On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad  wrote:
>
>> I agree with the domain suggestion.
>>
>>
>> On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>>
>> > When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made it so
>> > players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads. Since they
>> > require 100% completion there's almost no chance of getting paid from
>> > quickplay players.
>> >
>> > I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving servers by
>> > domain name.
>> >
>> > How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the toilet
>> > because changing IPs would kill off your population? How many of you need
>> > DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a new IP would result in
>> > more player loss than a DDoS?
>> >
>> > This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and would
>> > be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what Valve
>> should
>> > be working on next.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk > > >wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number instead
>> > of
>> > > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or w/e
>> > > changes it, it should not have a big impact on tracability, multiple
>> > HWID's
>> > > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
>> customize
>> > > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver
>> > > versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use for
>> > generating a
>> > > HWID.
>> > >
>> > > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much
>> benefit
>> > > from.
>> > >
>> > > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for
>> Valve
>> > > to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI. (apart
>> > > from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I rather see the
>> > > pinion crap end.)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > From: Scruppy Dawg 
>> > > >To: Bjorn Wielens ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
>> server
>> > > mailing list 
>> > > >Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 13:50
>> > > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
>> > > can ban HWID too.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could make
>> > > that
>> > > >available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing it.
>> They
>> > > >would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when you
>> > join
>> > > >a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
>> > > >
>> > > >I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID
>> associated
>> > > >with it banned.
>> > > >
>> > &g

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[ElitePowered .]

That's what a subdomain is sherlock.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 7:05 PM, Calvin Judy  wrote:

> I don't think you understand what he means, he wants the server browser to
> store dns records so players can connect for example "server.mydomain.com"
>
> The server browser automatically resolves the dns record, and stores the
> ip.
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "ElitePowered ." <
> elitepowe...@gmail.com>
>
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list"  valvesoftware.com >
> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 7:01 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
> ban HWID too.
>
>
>  You can just use subdomains.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  I agree with the domain suggestion.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>>>
>>> > When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made it
>>> > so
>>> > players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads. Since they
>>> > require 100% completion there's almost no chance of getting paid from
>>> > quickplay players.
>>> >
>>> > I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving servers
>>> > by
>>> > domain name.
>>> >
>>> > How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the >
>>> toilet
>>> > because changing IPs would kill off your population? How many of you >
>>> need
>>> > DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a new IP would result
>>> > in
>>> > more player loss than a DDoS?
>>> >
>>> > This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and >
>>> would
>>> > be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what Valve
>>> should
>>> > be working on next.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk >> > >wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number > >
>>> instead
>>> > of
>>> > > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or >
>>> > w/e
>>> > > changes it, it should not have a big impact on tracability, multiple
>>> > HWID's
>>> > > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
>>> customize
>>> > > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver
>>> > > versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use for
>>> > generating a
>>> > > HWID.
>>> > >
>>> > > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much
>>> benefit
>>> > > from.
>>> > >
>>> > > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for
>>> Valve
>>> > > to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI. > >
>>> (apart
>>> > > from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I rather see
>>> > > the
>>> > > pinion crap end.)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > >_**___
>>> > > > From: Scruppy Dawg 
>>> > > >To: Bjorn Wielens ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
>>> server
>>> > > mailing list 
>>> > > 
>>> >
>>> > > >Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 13:50
>>> > > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server
>>> > > >ops
>>> > > can ban HWID too.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could >
>>> > >make
>>> > > that
>>> > > >available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing it.
>>> They
>>> > > >would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when >
>>> > >you
>>> > join
>>> > > >a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID
>>> associated
>>> > > >with it banne

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Calvin Judy]

I don't think you understand what he means, he wants the server browser to 
store dns records so players can connect for example "server.mydomain.com"


The server browser automatically resolves the dns record, and stores the ip.


- Original Message - 
From: "ElitePowered ." 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list" 


Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can 
ban HWID too.




You can just use subdomains.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad  wrote:


I agree with the domain suggestion.


On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:

> When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made it 
> so

> players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads. Since they
> require 100% completion there's almost no chance of getting paid from
> quickplay players.
>
> I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving servers 
> by

> domain name.
>
> How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the 
> toilet
> because changing IPs would kill off your population? How many of you 
> need
> DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a new IP would result 
> in

> more player loss than a DDoS?
>
> This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and 
> would

> be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what Valve
should
> be working on next.
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk  >wrote:
>
> >
> > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number 
> > instead

> of
> > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or 
> > w/e

> > changes it, it should not have a big impact on tracability, multiple
> HWID's
> > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
customize
> > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver
> > versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use for
> generating a
> > HWID.
> >
> > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much
benefit
> > from.
> >
> > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for
Valve
> > to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI. 
> > (apart
> > from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I rather see 
> > the

> > pinion crap end.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > From: Scruppy Dawg 
> > >To: Bjorn Wielens ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
server
> > mailing list 
> > >Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 13:50
> > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server 
> > >ops

> > can ban HWID too.
> > >
> > >
> > >As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could 
> > >make

> > that
> > >available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing it.
They
> > >would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when 
> > >you

> join
> > >a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
> > >
> > >I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID
associated
> > >with it banned.
> > >
> > >SteamID A with HWID  is banned from my servers.
> > >
> > >But later if SteamID B joins with HWID  a check is done on auth
and
> > >they are not allowed to join.
> > >
> > >I would have to think most of this logging is already in place and 
> > >it

> > would
> > >just be a matter of changing the server and auth method.
> > >
> > >
> > >On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Bjorn Wielens 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> That wouldn't work. unless Valve implements a global ban system
where
> > they
> > >> track HWIDs and such for bans (which they never will do) , the 
> > >> HWID

> > would
> > >> HAVE to be shared to be able to ban by it. You can hardly ban
someone
> > by a
> > >> particular attribute of their account (or indeed check to see if
they
> > are
> > >> banned by said attribute) without actually knowing the attribute 
> > >> in

> the
> > >> first place.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 
> > >>  From: Scruppy Dawg 
> > >> To: Mart-Jan Reeuwijk ; Half-Life dedicated
Linux
> > >> server mailing list 

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[ElitePowered .]

You can just use subdomains.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Nomaan Ahmad  wrote:

> I agree with the domain suggestion.
>
>
> On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:
>
> > When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made it so
> > players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads. Since they
> > require 100% completion there's almost no chance of getting paid from
> > quickplay players.
> >
> > I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving servers by
> > domain name.
> >
> > How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the toilet
> > because changing IPs would kill off your population? How many of you need
> > DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a new IP would result in
> > more player loss than a DDoS?
> >
> > This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and would
> > be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what Valve
> should
> > be working on next.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk  > >wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number instead
> > of
> > > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or w/e
> > > changes it, it should not have a big impact on tracability, multiple
> > HWID's
> > > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to
> customize
> > > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver
> > > versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use for
> > generating a
> > > HWID.
> > >
> > > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much
> benefit
> > > from.
> > >
> > > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for
> Valve
> > > to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI. (apart
> > > from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I rather see the
> > > pinion crap end.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Scruppy Dawg 
> > > >To: Bjorn Wielens ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
> server
> > > mailing list 
> > > >Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 13:50
> > > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> > > can ban HWID too.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could make
> > > that
> > > >available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing it.
> They
> > > >would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when you
> > join
> > > >a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
> > > >
> > > >I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID
> associated
> > > >with it banned.
> > > >
> > > >SteamID A with HWID  is banned from my servers.
> > > >
> > > >But later if SteamID B joins with HWID  a check is done on auth
> and
> > > >they are not allowed to join.
> > > >
> > > >I would have to think most of this logging is already in place and it
> > > would
> > > >just be a matter of changing the server and auth method.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Bjorn Wielens 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> That wouldn't work. unless Valve implements a global ban system
> where
> > > they
> > > >> track HWIDs and such for bans (which they never will do) , the HWID
> > > would
> > > >> HAVE to be shared to be able to ban by it. You can hardly ban
> someone
> > > by a
> > > >> particular attribute of their account (or indeed check to see if
> they
> > > are
> > > >> banned by said attribute) without actually knowing the attribute in
> > the
> > > >> first place.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> 
> > > >>  From: Scruppy Dawg 
> > > >> To: Mart-Jan Reeuwijk ; Half-Life dedicated
> Linux
> > > >> server mailing list 
> > > >> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 3:33:28 AM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so 

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Nomaan Ahmad]

I agree with the domain suggestion.


On 24 August 2013 23:09, Robert Paulson  wrote:

> When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made it so
> players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads. Since they
> require 100% completion there's almost no chance of getting paid from
> quickplay players.
>
> I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving servers by
> domain name.
>
> How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the toilet
> because changing IPs would kill off your population? How many of you need
> DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a new IP would result in
> more player loss than a DDoS?
>
> This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and would
> be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what Valve should
> be working on next.
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk  >wrote:
>
> >
> > That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number instead
> of
> > the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or w/e
> > changes it, it should not have a big impact on tracability, multiple
> HWID's
> > would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to customize
> > MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver
> > versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use for
> generating a
> > HWID.
> >
> > Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much benefit
> > from.
> >
> > Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for Valve
> > to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI. (apart
> > from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I rather see the
> > pinion crap end.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >____________________
> > > From: Scruppy Dawg 
> > >To: Bjorn Wielens ; Half-Life dedicated Linux server
> > mailing list 
> > >Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 13:50
> > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> > can ban HWID too.
> > >
> > >
> > >As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could make
> > that
> > >available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing it. They
> > >would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when you
> join
> > >a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
> > >
> > >I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID associated
> > >with it banned.
> > >
> > >SteamID A with HWID  is banned from my servers.
> > >
> > >But later if SteamID B joins with HWID  a check is done on auth and
> > >they are not allowed to join.
> > >
> > >I would have to think most of this logging is already in place and it
> > would
> > >just be a matter of changing the server and auth method.
> > >
> > >
> > >On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Bjorn Wielens 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> That wouldn't work. unless Valve implements a global ban system where
> > they
> > >> track HWIDs and such for bans (which they never will do) , the HWID
> > would
> > >> HAVE to be shared to be able to ban by it. You can hardly ban someone
> > by a
> > >> particular attribute of their account (or indeed check to see if they
> > are
> > >> banned by said attribute) without actually knowing the attribute in
> the
> > >> first place.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 
> > >>  From: Scruppy Dawg 
> > >> To: Mart-Jan Reeuwijk ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
> > >> server mailing list 
> > >> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 3:33:28 AM
> > >> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> > can
> > >> ban HWID too.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Like I said, the HWID itself wouldn't be shared. When you ban a
> SteamID
> > >> there would be something you would add to the ban command to issue a
> > HWID
> > >> ban on that SteamID as well.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk <
> mreeu...@yahoo.com
> > >> >wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Steamguard generates a random number for the client, which is
> > "linked"

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Robert Paulson]

When is the whining about Pinion going to stop? Valve already made it so
players who join through matchmaking cannot have forced ads. Since they
require 100% completion there's almost no chance of getting paid from
quickplay players.

I'd rather Valve focus on more important issues such as saving servers by
domain name.

How many of you are stuck on old hardware or a host going down the toilet
because changing IPs would kill off your population? How many of you need
DDoS protection but can't because proxying from a new IP would result in
more player loss than a DDoS?

This feature is applicable to every game that uses the browser, and would
be beneficial to both players and server owners. This is what Valve should
be working on next.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:

>
> That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number instead of
> the HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or w/e
> changes it, it should not have a big impact on tracability, multiple HWID's
> would then be linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to customize
> MAC addresses, reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver
> versions etc, or w/e the combination of things is they use for generating a
> HWID.
>
> Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much benefit
> from.
>
> Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for Valve
> to implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI. (apart
> from the whining of us about alts being a problem, for I rather see the
> pinion crap end.)
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: Scruppy Dawg 
> >To: Bjorn Wielens ; Half-Life dedicated Linux server
> mailing list 
> >Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 13:50
> >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can ban HWID too.
> >
> >
> >As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could make
> that
> >available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing it. They
> >would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when you join
> >a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
> >
> >I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID associated
> >with it banned.
> >
> >SteamID A with HWID  is banned from my servers.
> >
> >But later if SteamID B joins with HWID  a check is done on auth and
> >they are not allowed to join.
> >
> >I would have to think most of this logging is already in place and it
> would
> >just be a matter of changing the server and auth method.
> >
> >
> >On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Bjorn Wielens  wrote:
> >
> >> That wouldn't work. unless Valve implements a global ban system where
> they
> >> track HWIDs and such for bans (which they never will do) , the HWID
> would
> >> HAVE to be shared to be able to ban by it. You can hardly ban someone
> by a
> >> particular attribute of their account (or indeed check to see if they
> are
> >> banned by said attribute) without actually knowing the attribute in the
> >> first place.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>  From: Scruppy Dawg 
> >> To: Mart-Jan Reeuwijk ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
> >> server mailing list 
> >> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 3:33:28 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can
> >> ban HWID too.
> >>
> >>
> >> Like I said, the HWID itself wouldn't be shared. When you ban a SteamID
> >> there would be something you would add to the ban command to issue a
> HWID
> >> ban on that SteamID as well.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk  >> >wrote:
> >>
> >> > Steamguard generates a random number for the client, which is
> "linked" to
> >> > the machine afaik with the steam client. You cannot get that one, that
> >> > would be bad.
> >> >
> >> > The HWID, is generated at installation of steam I think, and is
> probably
> >> > passed on to Valve at logon every time. Never really looked at it. But
> >> > sharing that has other security issues I guess.
> >> >
> >> > its a strange thing, for things conflict a lot.
> >> > - Valve can't discuss individual accounts specifics (being a alt
> account
> >> > of somebody would prolly be not good for them in legal)
> >>

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Mart-Jan Reeuwijk]

That would only work if that would be a form of tracking number instead of the 
HWID itself, for HWID's can be influenced, so if the hacker or w/e changes it, 
it should not have a big impact on tracability, multiple HWID's would then be 
linked to a tracking ID, for they can attempt to customize MAC addresses, 
reinstallation with different OS's, adjusting driver versions etc, or w/e the 
combination of things is they use for generating a HWID.

Tbh, its a lot of work for some Valve themselves doesn't see much benefit from. 

Maybe the discussion would have to be focused on the advantages for Valve to 
implement it, in their user experiences and the monetary ROI. (apart from the 
whining of us about alts being a problem, for I rather see the pinion crap end.)




>
> From: Scruppy Dawg 
>To: Bjorn Wielens ; Half-Life dedicated Linux server 
>mailing list  
>Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013, 13:50
>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban 
>HWID too.
> 
>
>As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could make that
>available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing it. They
>would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when you join
>a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
>
>I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID associated
>with it banned.
>
>SteamID A with HWID  is banned from my servers.
>
>But later if SteamID B joins with HWID  a check is done on auth and
>they are not allowed to join.
>
>I would have to think most of this logging is already in place and it would
>just be a matter of changing the server and auth method.
>
>
>On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Bjorn Wielens  wrote:
>
>> That wouldn't work. unless Valve implements a global ban system where they
>> track HWIDs and such for bans (which they never will do) , the HWID would
>> HAVE to be shared to be able to ban by it. You can hardly ban someone by a
>> particular attribute of their account (or indeed check to see if they are
>> banned by said attribute) without actually knowing the attribute in the
>> first place.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____
>>  From: Scruppy Dawg 
>> To: Mart-Jan Reeuwijk ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
>> server mailing list 
>> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 3:33:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
>> ban HWID too.
>>
>>
>> Like I said, the HWID itself wouldn't be shared. When you ban a SteamID
>> there would be something you would add to the ban command to issue a HWID
>> ban on that SteamID as well.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk > >wrote:
>>
>> > Steamguard generates a random number for the client, which is "linked" to
>> > the machine afaik with the steam client. You cannot get that one, that
>> > would be bad.
>> >
>> > The HWID, is generated at installation of steam I think, and is probably
>> > passed on to Valve at logon every time. Never really looked at it. But
>> > sharing that has other security issues I guess.
>> >
>> > its a strange thing, for things conflict a lot.
>> > - Valve can't discuss individual accounts specifics (being a alt account
>> > of somebody would prolly be not good for them in legal)
>> > - sharing such identifying info would benefit the server owners in the
>> > amount of effort needed to keep their servers clean, but that would be
>> > defeated by some those hackers would start to do to prevent such.
>> >
>> > I do not think valve would want to start that arms race. I rather have
>> > them up the par on VAC, as far as I hear, there are now various cheats
>> that
>> > aren't been vac'd by valve after x time. They do move over to new account
>> > for too many servers they got banned on to be able to join much.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > From: Eli Witt 
>> > >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
>> > hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
>> > >Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013, 22:05
>> > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
>> > can ban HWID too.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >It really depends on how the HWID is generated and if they're fuzzy or
>> > not.
>> > >It could literally be as simple as a 1 digit change to a MA

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[John Runyon]

But in order to ban a HWID - other than a global/VAC ban - the server would 
HAVE to know the HWID. Having steam remember every ban on every server on every 
game just isn't feasible. And that's the only way to ban HWID's without giving 
it to the server.

As several people have said several times.
Sent from my Kyocera Rise

Scruppy Dawg  wrote:

>The server wouldn't know the HWID, how many times do I have to say that. It
>would require authentication changes and changes to the server itself, but
>the way my idea would work would never expose that specific information to
>the server.
>
>
>On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:06 PM, John Runyon  wrote:
>
>> Steam does not know who is banned from a specific server and never will.
>> Only the server knows who is banned. If you allow bans on a HWID, the
>> server knows the HWID, and thus so do the 'server ops'.
>>
>> Scruppy Dawg  wrote:
>>
>> >As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could make
>> that
>> >available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing it. They
>> >would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when you join
>> >a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
>> >
>> >I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID associated
>> >with it banned.
>> >
>> >SteamID A with HWID  is banned from my servers.
>> >
>> >But later if SteamID B joins with HWID  a check is done on auth and
>> >they are not allowed to join.
>> >
>> >I would have to think most of this logging is already in place and it
>> would
>> >just be a matter of changing the server and auth method.
>> >
>> >
>> >On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Bjorn Wielens  wrote:
>> >
>> >> That wouldn't work. unless Valve implements a global ban system where
>> they
>> >> track HWIDs and such for bans (which they never will do) , the HWID
>> would
>> >> HAVE to be shared to be able to ban by it. You can hardly ban someone
>> by a
>> >> particular attribute of their account (or indeed check to see if they
>> are
>> >> banned by said attribute) without actually knowing the attribute in the
>> >> first place.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 
>> >>  From: Scruppy Dawg 
>> >> To: Mart-Jan Reeuwijk ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
>> >> server mailing list 
>> >> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 3:33:28 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
>> can
>> >> ban HWID too.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Like I said, the HWID itself wouldn't be shared. When you ban a SteamID
>> >> there would be something you would add to the ban command to issue a
>> HWID
>> >> ban on that SteamID as well.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk > >> >wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Steamguard generates a random number for the client, which is
>> "linked" to
>> >> > the machine afaik with the steam client. You cannot get that one, that
>> >> > would be bad.
>> >> >
>> >> > The HWID, is generated at installation of steam I think, and is
>> probably
>> >> > passed on to Valve at logon every time. Never really looked at it. But
>> >> > sharing that has other security issues I guess.
>> >> >
>> >> > its a strange thing, for things conflict a lot.
>> >> > - Valve can't discuss individual accounts specifics (being a alt
>> account
>> >> > of somebody would prolly be not good for them in legal)
>> >> > - sharing such identifying info would benefit the server owners in the
>> >> > amount of effort needed to keep their servers clean, but that would be
>> >> > defeated by some those hackers would start to do to prevent such.
>> >> >
>> >> > I do not think valve would want to start that arms race. I rather have
>> >> > them up the par on VAC, as far as I hear, there are now various cheats
>> >> that
>> >> > aren't been vac'd by valve after x time. They do move over to new
>> account
>> >> > for too many servers they got banned on to be able to join much.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Scruppy Dawg]

The server wouldn't know the HWID, how many times do I have to say that. It
would require authentication changes and changes to the server itself, but
the way my idea would work would never expose that specific information to
the server.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:06 PM, John Runyon  wrote:

> Steam does not know who is banned from a specific server and never will.
> Only the server knows who is banned. If you allow bans on a HWID, the
> server knows the HWID, and thus so do the 'server ops'.
>
> Scruppy Dawg  wrote:
>
> >As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could make
> that
> >available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing it. They
> >would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when you join
> >a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
> >
> >I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID associated
> >with it banned.
> >
> >SteamID A with HWID  is banned from my servers.
> >
> >But later if SteamID B joins with HWID  a check is done on auth and
> >they are not allowed to join.
> >
> >I would have to think most of this logging is already in place and it
> would
> >just be a matter of changing the server and auth method.
> >
> >
> >On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Bjorn Wielens  wrote:
> >
> >> That wouldn't work. unless Valve implements a global ban system where
> they
> >> track HWIDs and such for bans (which they never will do) , the HWID
> would
> >> HAVE to be shared to be able to ban by it. You can hardly ban someone
> by a
> >> particular attribute of their account (or indeed check to see if they
> are
> >> banned by said attribute) without actually knowing the attribute in the
> >> first place.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ____________
> >>  From: Scruppy Dawg 
> >> To: Mart-Jan Reeuwijk ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
> >> server mailing list 
> >> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 3:33:28 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can
> >> ban HWID too.
> >>
> >>
> >> Like I said, the HWID itself wouldn't be shared. When you ban a SteamID
> >> there would be something you would add to the ban command to issue a
> HWID
> >> ban on that SteamID as well.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk  >> >wrote:
> >>
> >> > Steamguard generates a random number for the client, which is
> "linked" to
> >> > the machine afaik with the steam client. You cannot get that one, that
> >> > would be bad.
> >> >
> >> > The HWID, is generated at installation of steam I think, and is
> probably
> >> > passed on to Valve at logon every time. Never really looked at it. But
> >> > sharing that has other security issues I guess.
> >> >
> >> > its a strange thing, for things conflict a lot.
> >> > - Valve can't discuss individual accounts specifics (being a alt
> account
> >> > of somebody would prolly be not good for them in legal)
> >> > - sharing such identifying info would benefit the server owners in the
> >> > amount of effort needed to keep their servers clean, but that would be
> >> > defeated by some those hackers would start to do to prevent such.
> >> >
> >> > I do not think valve would want to start that arms race. I rather have
> >> > them up the par on VAC, as far as I hear, there are now various cheats
> >> that
> >> > aren't been vac'd by valve after x time. They do move over to new
> account
> >> > for too many servers they got banned on to be able to join much.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > From: Eli Witt 
> >> > >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> >> > hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> >> > >Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013, 22:05
> >> > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server
> ops
> >> > can ban HWID too.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >It really depends on how the HWID is generated and if they're fuzzy
> or
> >> > not.
> >> > >It could literally be as simple as a 1 digit change to a MAC address
> on
> >> a
> >>

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[John Runyon]

Steam does not know who is banned from a specific server and never will. Only 
the server knows who is banned. If you allow bans on a HWID, the server knows 
the HWID, and thus so do the 'server ops'.

Scruppy Dawg  wrote:

>As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could make that
>available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing it. They
>would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when you join
>a server and check that HWID against your banned list.
>
>I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID associated
>with it banned.
>
>SteamID A with HWID  is banned from my servers.
>
>But later if SteamID B joins with HWID  a check is done on auth and
>they are not allowed to join.
>
>I would have to think most of this logging is already in place and it would
>just be a matter of changing the server and auth method.
>
>
>On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Bjorn Wielens  wrote:
>
>> That wouldn't work. unless Valve implements a global ban system where they
>> track HWIDs and such for bans (which they never will do) , the HWID would
>> HAVE to be shared to be able to ban by it. You can hardly ban someone by a
>> particular attribute of their account (or indeed check to see if they are
>> banned by said attribute) without actually knowing the attribute in the
>> first place.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>  From: Scruppy Dawg 
>> To: Mart-Jan Reeuwijk ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
>> server mailing list 
>> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 3:33:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
>> ban HWID too.
>>
>>
>> Like I said, the HWID itself wouldn't be shared. When you ban a SteamID
>> there would be something you would add to the ban command to issue a HWID
>> ban on that SteamID as well.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk > >wrote:
>>
>> > Steamguard generates a random number for the client, which is "linked" to
>> > the machine afaik with the steam client. You cannot get that one, that
>> > would be bad.
>> >
>> > The HWID, is generated at installation of steam I think, and is probably
>> > passed on to Valve at logon every time. Never really looked at it. But
>> > sharing that has other security issues I guess.
>> >
>> > its a strange thing, for things conflict a lot.
>> > - Valve can't discuss individual accounts specifics (being a alt account
>> > of somebody would prolly be not good for them in legal)
>> > - sharing such identifying info would benefit the server owners in the
>> > amount of effort needed to keep their servers clean, but that would be
>> > defeated by some those hackers would start to do to prevent such.
>> >
>> > I do not think valve would want to start that arms race. I rather have
>> > them up the par on VAC, as far as I hear, there are now various cheats
>> that
>> > aren't been vac'd by valve after x time. They do move over to new account
>> > for too many servers they got banned on to be able to join much.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > From: Eli Witt 
>> > >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
>> > hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
>> > >Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013, 22:05
>> > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
>> > can ban HWID too.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >It really depends on how the HWID is generated and if they're fuzzy or
>> > not.
>> > >It could literally be as simple as a 1 digit change to a MAC address on
>> a
>> > >NIC that's not even active, or it could stamp every piece of hardware
>> that
>> > >it can pull unique information from and fuzzy the shit out of it.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:56 AM, dan  wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> On 23/08/2013 01:43, Scruppy Dawg wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form
>> of
>> > >>> HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
>> > >>> operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the
>> associated
>> > >>> HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.
>> > >>>

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Scruppy Dawg]

As long as Valve stores the HWID for each SteamID then they could make that
available as a banning mechanism to server ops without exposing it. They
would just have to add something to the Steam authentication when you join
a server and check that HWID against your banned list.

I would ban a SteamID and add the option that I want the HWID associated
with it banned.

SteamID A with HWID  is banned from my servers.

But later if SteamID B joins with HWID  a check is done on auth and
they are not allowed to join.

I would have to think most of this logging is already in place and it would
just be a matter of changing the server and auth method.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Bjorn Wielens  wrote:

> That wouldn't work. unless Valve implements a global ban system where they
> track HWIDs and such for bans (which they never will do) , the HWID would
> HAVE to be shared to be able to ban by it. You can hardly ban someone by a
> particular attribute of their account (or indeed check to see if they are
> banned by said attribute) without actually knowing the attribute in the
> first place.
>
>
>
>
> 
>  From: Scruppy Dawg 
> To: Mart-Jan Reeuwijk ; Half-Life dedicated Linux
> server mailing list 
> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 3:33:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can
> ban HWID too.
>
>
> Like I said, the HWID itself wouldn't be shared. When you ban a SteamID
> there would be something you would add to the ban command to issue a HWID
> ban on that SteamID as well.
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk  >wrote:
>
> > Steamguard generates a random number for the client, which is "linked" to
> > the machine afaik with the steam client. You cannot get that one, that
> > would be bad.
> >
> > The HWID, is generated at installation of steam I think, and is probably
> > passed on to Valve at logon every time. Never really looked at it. But
> > sharing that has other security issues I guess.
> >
> > its a strange thing, for things conflict a lot.
> > - Valve can't discuss individual accounts specifics (being a alt account
> > of somebody would prolly be not good for them in legal)
> > - sharing such identifying info would benefit the server owners in the
> > amount of effort needed to keep their servers clean, but that would be
> > defeated by some those hackers would start to do to prevent such.
> >
> > I do not think valve would want to start that arms race. I rather have
> > them up the par on VAC, as far as I hear, there are now various cheats
> that
> > aren't been vac'd by valve after x time. They do move over to new account
> > for too many servers they got banned on to be able to join much.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >________________
> > > From: Eli Witt 
> > >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> > hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> > >Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013, 22:05
> > >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> > can ban HWID too.
> > >
> > >
> > >It really depends on how the HWID is generated and if they're fuzzy or
> > not.
> > >It could literally be as simple as a 1 digit change to a MAC address on
> a
> > >NIC that's not even active, or it could stamp every piece of hardware
> that
> > >it can pull unique information from and fuzzy the shit out of it.
> > >
> > >
> > >On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:56 AM, dan  wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 23/08/2013 01:43, Scruppy Dawg wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form
> of
> > >>> HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
> > >>> operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the
> associated
> > >>> HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Is it difficult to change hwid though?
> > >>
> > >> I can't say I've looked at it or care about it, but if something as
> > simple
> > >> as
> > >> changing the mac address alters it, it's not likely to improve
> anything.
> > >>
> > >> It sounds like one of these things that might work for a week or 2 and
> > then
> > >> cheaters would just figure out a way of working around it.
> > >>
> > >> Auto detecting cheating and kicking / banning seem

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Bjorn Wielens]

That wouldn't work. unless Valve implements a global ban system where they 
track HWIDs and such for bans (which they never will do) , the HWID would HAVE 
to be shared to be able to ban by it. You can hardly ban someone by a 
particular attribute of their account (or indeed check to see if they are 
banned by said attribute) without actually knowing the attribute in the first 
place.





 From: Scruppy Dawg 
To: Mart-Jan Reeuwijk ; Half-Life dedicated Linux server 
mailing list  
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 3:33:28 AM
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban 
HWID too.
 

Like I said, the HWID itself wouldn't be shared. When you ban a SteamID
there would be something you would add to the ban command to issue a HWID
ban on that SteamID as well.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:

> Steamguard generates a random number for the client, which is "linked" to
> the machine afaik with the steam client. You cannot get that one, that
> would be bad.
>
> The HWID, is generated at installation of steam I think, and is probably
> passed on to Valve at logon every time. Never really looked at it. But
> sharing that has other security issues I guess.
>
> its a strange thing, for things conflict a lot.
> - Valve can't discuss individual accounts specifics (being a alt account
> of somebody would prolly be not good for them in legal)
> - sharing such identifying info would benefit the server owners in the
> amount of effort needed to keep their servers clean, but that would be
> defeated by some those hackers would start to do to prevent such.
>
> I do not think valve would want to start that arms race. I rather have
> them up the par on VAC, as far as I hear, there are now various cheats that
> aren't been vac'd by valve after x time. They do move over to new account
> for too many servers they got banned on to be able to join much.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: Eli Witt 
> >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> >Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013, 22:05
> >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can ban HWID too.
> >
> >
> >It really depends on how the HWID is generated and if they're fuzzy or
> not.
> >It could literally be as simple as a 1 digit change to a MAC address on a
> >NIC that's not even active, or it could stamp every piece of hardware that
> >it can pull unique information from and fuzzy the shit out of it.
> >
> >
> >On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:56 AM, dan  wrote:
> >
> >> On 23/08/2013 01:43, Scruppy Dawg wrote:
> >>
> >>> Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form of
> >>> HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
> >>> operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the associated
> >>> HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Is it difficult to change hwid though?
> >>
> >> I can't say I've looked at it or care about it, but if something as
> simple
> >> as
> >> changing the mac address alters it, it's not likely to improve anything.
> >>
> >> It sounds like one of these things that might work for a week or 2 and
> then
> >> cheaters would just figure out a way of working around it.
> >>
> >> Auto detecting cheating and kicking / banning seems the best approach.
> >> Doesn't SMAC and the alternatives work well enough to do that?
> >>
> >> I've got to say I don't really notice a significant problem with
> cheaters
> >> in TF2
> >> on the servers I play on.
> >>
> >> I can't imagine why someone would keep creating accounts and going back
> to
> >> the same server
> >> only to be kicked and banned immediately, unless it's reached the point
> >> where
> >> he's just doing it to wind the server owner and admins up.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dan
> >>
> >>
> >> __**_
> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> >> please visit:
> >> https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds_linux<
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
> >>
> >___
> >To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view

Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Scruppy Dawg]

Like I said, the HWID itself wouldn't be shared. When you ban a SteamID
there would be something you would add to the ban command to issue a HWID
ban on that SteamID as well.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Mart-Jan Reeuwijk wrote:

> Steamguard generates a random number for the client, which is "linked" to
> the machine afaik with the steam client. You cannot get that one, that
> would be bad.
>
> The HWID, is generated at installation of steam I think, and is probably
> passed on to Valve at logon every time. Never really looked at it. But
> sharing that has other security issues I guess.
>
> its a strange thing, for things conflict a lot.
> - Valve can't discuss individual accounts specifics (being a alt account
> of somebody would prolly be not good for them in legal)
> - sharing such identifying info would benefit the server owners in the
> amount of effort needed to keep their servers clean, but that would be
> defeated by some those hackers would start to do to prevent such.
>
> I do not think valve would want to start that arms race. I rather have
> them up the par on VAC, as far as I hear, there are now various cheats that
> aren't been vac'd by valve after x time. They do move over to new account
> for too many servers they got banned on to be able to join much.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: Eli Witt 
> >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> >Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013, 22:05
> >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can ban HWID too.
> >
> >
> >It really depends on how the HWID is generated and if they're fuzzy or
> not.
> >It could literally be as simple as a 1 digit change to a MAC address on a
> >NIC that's not even active, or it could stamp every piece of hardware that
> >it can pull unique information from and fuzzy the shit out of it.
> >
> >
> >On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:56 AM, dan  wrote:
> >
> >> On 23/08/2013 01:43, Scruppy Dawg wrote:
> >>
> >>> Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form of
> >>> HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
> >>> operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the associated
> >>> HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Is it difficult to change hwid though?
> >>
> >> I can't say I've looked at it or care about it, but if something as
> simple
> >> as
> >> changing the mac address alters it, it's not likely to improve anything.
> >>
> >> It sounds like one of these things that might work for a week or 2 and
> then
> >> cheaters would just figure out a way of working around it.
> >>
> >> Auto detecting cheating and kicking / banning seems the best approach.
> >> Doesn't SMAC and the alternatives work well enough to do that?
> >>
> >> I've got to say I don't really notice a significant problem with
> cheaters
> >> in TF2
> >> on the servers I play on.
> >>
> >> I can't imagine why someone would keep creating accounts and going back
> to
> >> the same server
> >> only to be kicked and banned immediately, unless it's reached the point
> >> where
> >> he's just doing it to wind the server owner and admins up.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dan
> >>
> >>
> >> __**_
> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> >> please visit:
> >> https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds_linux<
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
> >>
> >___
> >To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> >https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> >
> >
> >
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Mart-Jan Reeuwijk]

Steamguard generates a random number for the client, which is "linked" to the 
machine afaik with the steam client. You cannot get that one, that would be 
bad. 

The HWID, is generated at installation of steam I think, and is probably passed 
on to Valve at logon every time. Never really looked at it. But sharing that 
has other security issues I guess. 

its a strange thing, for things conflict a lot. 
- Valve can't discuss individual accounts specifics (being a alt account of 
somebody would prolly be not good for them in legal)
- sharing such identifying info would benefit the server owners in the amount 
of effort needed to keep their servers clean, but that would be defeated by 
some those hackers would start to do to prevent such.

I do not think valve would want to start that arms race. I rather have them up 
the par on VAC, as far as I hear, there are now various cheats that aren't been 
vac'd by valve after x time. They do move over to new account for too many 
servers they got banned on to be able to join much.




>
> From: Eli Witt 
>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
> 
>Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013, 22:05
>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban 
>HWID too.
> 
>
>It really depends on how the HWID is generated and if they're fuzzy or not.
>It could literally be as simple as a 1 digit change to a MAC address on a
>NIC that's not even active, or it could stamp every piece of hardware that
>it can pull unique information from and fuzzy the shit out of it.
>
>
>On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:56 AM, dan  wrote:
>
>> On 23/08/2013 01:43, Scruppy Dawg wrote:
>>
>>> Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form of
>>> HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
>>> operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the associated
>>> HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.
>>>
>>
>> Is it difficult to change hwid though?
>>
>> I can't say I've looked at it or care about it, but if something as simple
>> as
>> changing the mac address alters it, it's not likely to improve anything.
>>
>> It sounds like one of these things that might work for a week or 2 and then
>> cheaters would just figure out a way of working around it.
>>
>> Auto detecting cheating and kicking / banning seems the best approach.
>> Doesn't SMAC and the alternatives work well enough to do that?
>>
>> I've got to say I don't really notice a significant problem with cheaters
>> in TF2
>> on the servers I play on.
>>
>> I can't imagine why someone would keep creating accounts and going back to
>> the same server
>> only to be kicked and banned immediately, unless it's reached the point
>> where
>> he's just doing it to wind the server owner and admins up.
>>
>> --
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> __**_
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds_linux<https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
>>
>___
>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
>visit:
>https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
>
>
___
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visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Eli Witt]

It really depends on how the HWID is generated and if they're fuzzy or not.
It could literally be as simple as a 1 digit change to a MAC address on a
NIC that's not even active, or it could stamp every piece of hardware that
it can pull unique information from and fuzzy the shit out of it.


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:56 AM, dan  wrote:

> On 23/08/2013 01:43, Scruppy Dawg wrote:
>
>> Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form of
>> HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
>> operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the associated
>> HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.
>>
>
> Is it difficult to change hwid though?
>
> I can't say I've looked at it or care about it, but if something as simple
> as
> changing the mac address alters it, it's not likely to improve anything.
>
> It sounds like one of these things that might work for a week or 2 and then
> cheaters would just figure out a way of working around it.
>
> Auto detecting cheating and kicking / banning seems the best approach.
> Doesn't SMAC and the alternatives work well enough to do that?
>
> I've got to say I don't really notice a significant problem with cheaters
> in TF2
> on the servers I play on.
>
> I can't imagine why someone would keep creating accounts and going back to
> the same server
> only to be kicked and banned immediately, unless it's reached the point
> where
> he's just doing it to wind the server owner and admins up.
>
> --
> Dan
>
>
> __**_
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.**com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**hlds_linux
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Bjorn Wielens]

We've had a handful of these as well. It got to a point where we issued a 'ban 
on sight' order with 'alt account of ' as an acceptable ban reason 
without significant evidence. I think at one point it was even reported to his 
ISP and he got disconnected so he had to explain to mummy and daddy why they 
were issued a cease-and-desist. That takes their steam away pretty quickly... 
in both contexts of that word.
You'd be surprised how determined some people can be (and now that tf2 is F2P 
there isn't even any money required to get a new account). 







 From: Mart-Jan Reeuwijk 
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
 
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 1:32:37 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can  
ban HWID too.
 

lol, that reminds me of a cheater years ago (~4-5 years), that always went 
cheating on a DODS server. Admins banned his account, 2 minutes later he was on 
the server again with another account. Every month he bought about 10-15 
accounts to cheat ONLY on that community's server (no bans or stats anywhere 
else for those accounts). Sometimes it where brand new accounts, other times it 
where old accounts. If IP banned, he moved proxy. Kept on for years... 
Nobody ever found out why he did so, for he must have spend quite some money to 
do this, or w/e. Admins did play a lot on it, so those accounts got banned 
fast, but it was a annoyance for them for they had the proof rule that any ban 
must be proven disregard of rules or must be hacking etc, recording demo's, 
peer review etc.  (that comm is now defunct sadly).

Shame SMAC wasn't there yet.




>
> From: dan 
>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
> 
>Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013, 13:56
>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban 
>HWID too.
> 
>
>On 23/08/2013 01:43, Scruppy Dawg wrote:
>> Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form of
>> HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
>> operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the associated
>> HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.
>
>Is it difficult to change hwid though?
>
>I can't say I've looked at it or care about it, but if something as 
>simple as
>changing the mac address alters it, it's not likely to improve anything.
>
>It sounds like one of these things that might work for a week or 2 and then
>cheaters would just figure out a way of working around it.
>
>Auto detecting cheating and kicking / banning seems the best approach.
>Doesn't SMAC and the alternatives work well enough to do that?
>
>I've got to say I don't really notice a significant problem with 
>cheaters in TF2
>on the servers I play on.
>
>I can't imagine why someone would keep creating accounts and going back 
>to the same server
>only to be kicked and banned immediately, unless it's reached the point 
>where
>he's just doing it to wind the server owner and admins up.
>
>-- 
>Dan
>
>___
>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
>visit:
>https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[AnAkIn]

SMAC doesn't detect everything, and neither does others server side ACs.
Some hacks are even designed to detect that SMAC is running on the server
and disable features that are detected.


2013/8/23 Mart-Jan Reeuwijk 

> lol, that reminds me of a cheater years ago (~4-5 years), that always went
> cheating on a DODS server. Admins banned his account, 2 minutes later he
> was on the server again with another account. Every month he bought about
> 10-15 accounts to cheat ONLY on that community's server (no bans or stats
> anywhere else for those accounts). Sometimes it where brand new accounts,
> other times it where old accounts. If IP banned, he moved proxy. Kept on
> for years...
> Nobody ever found out why he did so, for he must have spend quite some
> money to do this, or w/e. Admins did play a lot on it, so those accounts
> got banned fast, but it was a annoyance for them for they had the proof
> rule that any ban must be proven disregard of rules or must be hacking etc,
> recording demo's, peer review etc.  (that comm is now defunct sadly).
>
> Shame SMAC wasn't there yet.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: dan 
> >To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>
> >Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013, 13:56
> >Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops
> can ban HWID too.
> >
> >
> >On 23/08/2013 01:43, Scruppy Dawg wrote:
> >> Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form of
> >> HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
> >> operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the associated
> >> HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.
> >
> >Is it difficult to change hwid though?
> >
> >I can't say I've looked at it or care about it, but if something as
> >simple as
> >changing the mac address alters it, it's not likely to improve anything.
> >
> >It sounds like one of these things that might work for a week or 2 and
> then
> >cheaters would just figure out a way of working around it.
> >
> >Auto detecting cheating and kicking / banning seems the best approach.
> >Doesn't SMAC and the alternatives work well enough to do that?
> >
> >I've got to say I don't really notice a significant problem with
> >cheaters in TF2
> >on the servers I play on.
> >
> >I can't imagine why someone would keep creating accounts and going back
> >to the same server
> >only to be kicked and banned immediately, unless it's reached the point
> >where
> >he's just doing it to wind the server owner and admins up.
> >
> >--
> >Dan
> >
> >___
> >To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> >https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> >
> >
> >
> ___
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Mart-Jan Reeuwijk]

lol, that reminds me of a cheater years ago (~4-5 years), that always went 
cheating on a DODS server. Admins banned his account, 2 minutes later he was on 
the server again with another account. Every month he bought about 10-15 
accounts to cheat ONLY on that community's server (no bans or stats anywhere 
else for those accounts). Sometimes it where brand new accounts, other times it 
where old accounts. If IP banned, he moved proxy. Kept on for years... 
Nobody ever found out why he did so, for he must have spend quite some money to 
do this, or w/e. Admins did play a lot on it, so those accounts got banned 
fast, but it was a annoyance for them for they had the proof rule that any ban 
must be proven disregard of rules or must be hacking etc, recording demo's, 
peer review etc.  (that comm is now defunct sadly).

Shame SMAC wasn't there yet.




>
> From: dan 
>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
> 
>Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013, 13:56
>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban 
>HWID too.
> 
>
>On 23/08/2013 01:43, Scruppy Dawg wrote:
>> Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form of
>> HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
>> operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the associated
>> HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.
>
>Is it difficult to change hwid though?
>
>I can't say I've looked at it or care about it, but if something as 
>simple as
>changing the mac address alters it, it's not likely to improve anything.
>
>It sounds like one of these things that might work for a week or 2 and then
>cheaters would just figure out a way of working around it.
>
>Auto detecting cheating and kicking / banning seems the best approach.
>Doesn't SMAC and the alternatives work well enough to do that?
>
>I've got to say I don't really notice a significant problem with 
>cheaters in TF2
>on the servers I play on.
>
>I can't imagine why someone would keep creating accounts and going back 
>to the same server
>only to be kicked and banned immediately, unless it's reached the point 
>where
>he's just doing it to wind the server owner and admins up.
>
>-- 
>Dan
>
>___
>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
>visit:
>https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[dan]

On 23/08/2013 01:43, Scruppy Dawg wrote:

Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form of
HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the associated
HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.


Is it difficult to change hwid though?

I can't say I've looked at it or care about it, but if something as 
simple as

changing the mac address alters it, it's not likely to improve anything.

It sounds like one of these things that might work for a week or 2 and then
cheaters would just figure out a way of working around it.

Auto detecting cheating and kicking / banning seems the best approach.
Doesn't SMAC and the alternatives work well enough to do that?

I've got to say I don't really notice a significant problem with 
cheaters in TF2

on the servers I play on.

I can't imagine why someone would keep creating accounts and going back 
to the same server
only to be kicked and banned immediately, unless it's reached the point 
where

he's just doing it to wind the server owner and admins up.

--
Dan

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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[martin v]

This must be the most amazing idea someone made this year!

+100!

Valve please make this happen.


2013/8/23 AnAkIn 

> HWIDS are not stored due to Steam Guard. It only uses a cookie that is
> stored on your computer.
> They do keep HWIDs to keep a list of the accounts you connected to.
> Le 23 août 2013 02:45, "Scruppy Dawg"  a écrit :
>
> > Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form of
> > HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
> > operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the associated
> > HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> >
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> please visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[AnAkIn]

HWIDS are not stored due to Steam Guard. It only uses a cookie that is
stored on your computer.
They do keep HWIDs to keep a list of the accounts you connected to.
Le 23 août 2013 02:45, "Scruppy Dawg"  a écrit :

> Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form of
> HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
> operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the associated
> HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.
> ___
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> please visit:
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[hlds_linux] Add something to the game so that server ops can ban HWID too.

[Scruppy Dawg]

Everyone knows the HWIDs are stored due to Steamguard (Or some form of
HWID, anyway). Couldn't Valve simply add something so that server
operators, when banning a SteamID, can also elect to ban the associated
HWID? The HWID never needs to be exposed to the server admins.
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