Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> when i took up the practice of law, I was advised: 'if you have no  
> facts and a weak case, abuse your opponent'.

Really? I, on the other hand, was taught to rely on the logical analysis of
facts and evidence.

> I think we'll stop here.

Yeah, ok.

PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 10-May-07, at 5:25 PM, PJ wrote:

> You, on the other hand, keep doing the internet equivalent of
>
> 
> La La La - I can't hear you - La La La
> 

when i took up the practice of law, I was advised: 'if you have no  
facts and a weak case, abuse your opponent'. I think we'll stop here.


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/




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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Anant Narayanan]

PJ wrote:
> Maybe the proprietary OSX UI layer would count, since it wraps a BSD based
> system. But I'm not sure it really matters, since it is just a wrapper, so
> you could do the same to a GPL based system. I'll only really worry about
> usurping if Apple becomes dominant, rather than the 2nd tier OS it is at 
> present.

I still don't understand why it hurts when a commercial entity uses some
BSD code to gain "dominance". BSD-code is *written* with exactly that
intent, because the BSD-camp believes code should be open to everyone
irrespective of what their intentions are.

GPL has a different agenda, and a quite noble one at that; but the point
is that the GPL-camp should stop berating the BSD-side as if it were
against the concept of free software.

--
Anant

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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> facts please. 
[snip]
> again, show one
[snip]
> again - facts please

I don't think this is leading anywhere useful.

I and others have already spoonfed you with enough facts along with the
reasoning behind them.

You, on the other hand, keep doing the internet equivalent of


La La La - I can't hear you - La La La


PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

Sandip Bhattacharya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I have a feeling that Kenneth is just asking for some facts behind your
> theory of how BSD code is being abused by M$ and its ilk. Too many
> people throw the "BSD networking stack" as an example whenever this
> discussion comes up, but are at a loss when asked for examples beyond that.

Maybe they're stunned by the view that it's not such a big deal.

Grabbing the BSD stack and using it to make windows work with the internet
just before the web started in the early 90s is a pretty big deal. Denying that
this helped MS jump in and dominate as PCs came in everywhere is illogical.
MS was big in 1992 or thereabouts, but not as dominant as it is now.

Sure, MS could have written their own stack, but why bother when BSD code
can quite legitimately be used and save some time and effort?

> When you were asked about Apache and Mozilla projects, instead of
> admitting exceptions to this theory,

You are insinuating a falsehood.

I said there was a risk of usurption. "Risk" does not mean "certainty". The
word "risk" implies exceptions will be there.

If you drive recklessly, there is a risk you will crash. There is not
a certainty you will crash.

On top of that, I explained the factors behind why apache wasn't hijacked
in thorough detail.

> you turned to "luck" as an abstract
>  non-verifiable factor. How about some concrete examples of the
> "failure" of BSD licenses?

I don't know what you mean by luck as being non-verifiable.

Luck is verifiable in hindsight in many cases, otherwise historians wouldn't
be able to write books. This is because luck is pretty much random factors
operating in favour of an outcome. But, since it is pretty much random, you
can't know the likelihood of a favourable event too much in *advance* of
the event. That's why it's called "luck", and not "foreknowledge".

BSD licencing relies on partially on luck to avoid usurping.

PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

> You are being deliberately dense here, which makes rational discussion hard.
> 
> For:
> 
> FTP
> 
> read:
> 
> The implementation of the FTP protocol in the software named ftp.exe on win98 
> for
> example.
> 
>> and how did that affect the FTP protocol?
> 
> It did not (AFAIK) and I did not claim it did. I gave it as an example of
> abusing code to help MS achieve dominance.
> 
> On the other hand, the kerberos example was an attempt to create an MS
> kerberos as the common proprietary standard.

You are mixing up two issues here to make the discussion go off-track. I
don't know whether this is deliberate or you don't see it.

1. None of us have doubts of whether MS "embraces and extends". So we
don't need examples to prove MS is 3vil.

2. We are only discussing if BSD's licence particularly has helped MS or
any other closed source software in abusing the Freedom of the BSD
community, in a way that GPL would have prevented it.

If you are harping on (2), then let us have enough examples commensurate
to the fact that this licence has been around for the last 18 years or
stop trashing their licence as being detrimental to the community. 1 or
two examples over 18 years is not good enough to make a general
statement. For that matter, there have been a lot of GPL violations over
this time too - reported (and I am sure accordingly, many more unreported).

- Sandip


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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


> FTP is software? I always thought it was a protocol
> 

Sigh. Frederick, I know you're smarter than this.

You are being deliberately dense here, which makes rational discussion hard.

For:

FTP

read:

The implementation of the FTP protocol in the software named ftp.exe on win98 
for
example.

> and how did that affect the FTP protocol?

It did not (AFAIK) and I did not claim it did. I gave it as an example of
abusing code to help MS achieve dominance.

On the other hand, the kerberos example was an attempt to create an MS
kerberos as the common proprietary standard.


PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

> > On Wednesday 09 May 2007 18:15, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:

> >> I have a feeling that Kenneth is just asking for some facts behind
> >> your theory of how BSD code is being abused by M$ and its ilk. Too
> >> many people throw the "BSD networking stack" as an example whenever
> >> this discussion comes up, but are at a loss when asked for examples
> >> beyond that.

> On 09-May-07, at 7:15 PM, Raj Mathur wrote:
> > Kerberos?

Kenneth Gonsalves writes:

> tell us more

If you are not just trolling, try this link:

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=kerberos+microsoft+embrace+extend+extinguish

PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[lawgon]

Quoting PJ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Raj Mathur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > 
> > On Wednesday 09 May 2007 18:15, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > > I have a feeling that Kenneth is just asking for some facts behind
> > > your theory of how BSD code is being abused by M$ and its ilk. Too
> > > many people throw the "BSD networking stack" as an example whenever
> > > this discussion comes up, but are at a loss when asked for examples
> > > beyond that.
> > 
> > Kerberos?
> > 
> 
> FTP?

FTP is software? I always thought it was a protocol

> 
> Not that the MS ftp client was ever used for anything serious, but it was
> unattributed BSD code in the older windows.

and how did that affect the FTP protocol?



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[lawgon]

Quoting PJ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > so, in short, your statement that many important BSD projects are in  
> > danger is not based on any factual knowledge or research.
> 
> I've told you a principle that has been shown to hold true (viz. danger of
> BSD
> projects being usurped for all projects that are not held in the lead by
> talent or luck).

facts please. 
> 
> Historically, this principle has held (important BSD code usurping has been
> observed and has helped MS).

again, show one
> 
> The illogic in your statement is therefore devastating and impeccable.

again - facts please



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[lawgon]

Quoting Sandip Bhattacharya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Raj Mathur wrote:
> > On Wednesday 09 May 2007 18:15, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
> >> [snip]
> >> I have a feeling that Kenneth is just asking for some facts behind
> >> your theory of how BSD code is being abused by M$ and its ilk. Too
> >> many people throw the "BSD networking stack" as an example whenever
> >> this discussion comes up, but are at a loss when asked for examples
> >> beyond that.
> > 
> > Kerberos?
> > 
> 
> This is again an old name just like the BSD stack theory.
> 
> Besides, I am not sure what happened here. Did Microsoft use BSD
> kerberos code? Or did they "embrace and extend" a known protocol and
> then made it incompatible with other implementations? If it is the
> latter, then it is not exactly a BSD license misuse, right? Even if I am
> wrong here, I would urge you provide you the name of some tangible
> independent project which has been abused.

i have gone through the kerberos web  page - software looks alive and well to
me. No developer seems to have committed suicide or gone bankrupt. The software
appears to be widely used and in active development. So what is the problem?

kg




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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

Raj Mathur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> 
> On Wednesday 09 May 2007 18:15, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
> > [snip]
> > I have a feeling that Kenneth is just asking for some facts behind
> > your theory of how BSD code is being abused by M$ and its ilk. Too
> > many people throw the "BSD networking stack" as an example whenever
> > this discussion comes up, but are at a loss when asked for examples
> > beyond that.
> 
> Kerberos?
> 

FTP?

Not that the MS ftp client was ever used for anything serious, but it was
unattributed BSD code in the older windows.

Maybe the proprietary OSX UI layer would count, since it wraps a BSD based
system. But I'm not sure it really matters, since it is just a wrapper, so
you could do the same to a GPL based system. I'll only really worry about
usurping if Apple becomes dominant, rather than the 2nd tier OS it is at 
present.

PJ


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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> so, in short, your statement that many important BSD projects are in  
> danger is not based on any factual knowledge or research.

I've told you a principle that has been shown to hold true (viz. danger of BSD
projects being usurped for all projects that are not held in the lead by
talent or luck).

Historically, this principle has held (important BSD code usurping has been
observed and has helped MS).

The illogic in your statement is therefore devastating and impeccable.

PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

Raj Mathur wrote:
> On Wednesday 09 May 2007 18:15, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
>> [snip]
>> I have a feeling that Kenneth is just asking for some facts behind
>> your theory of how BSD code is being abused by M$ and its ilk. Too
>> many people throw the "BSD networking stack" as an example whenever
>> this discussion comes up, but are at a loss when asked for examples
>> beyond that.
> 
> Kerberos?
> 

This is again an old name just like the BSD stack theory.

Besides, I am not sure what happened here. Did Microsoft use BSD
kerberos code? Or did they "embrace and extend" a known protocol and
then made it incompatible with other implementations? If it is the
latter, then it is not exactly a BSD license misuse, right? Even if I am
wrong here, I would urge you provide you the name of some tangible
independent project which has been abused.

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 09-May-07, at 7:15 PM, Raj Mathur wrote:

> On Wednesday 09 May 2007 18:15, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
>> [snip]
>> I have a feeling that Kenneth is just asking for some facts behind
>> your theory of how BSD code is being abused by M$ and its ilk. Too
>> many people throw the "BSD networking stack" as an example whenever
>> this discussion comes up, but are at a loss when asked for examples
>> beyond that.
>
> Kerberos?

tell us more


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/




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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Raj Mathur]

On Wednesday 09 May 2007 18:15, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
> [snip]
> I have a feeling that Kenneth is just asking for some facts behind
> your theory of how BSD code is being abused by M$ and its ilk. Too
> many people throw the "BSD networking stack" as an example whenever
> this discussion comes up, but are at a loss when asked for examples
> beyond that.

Kerberos?

-- 
Raj Mathur           [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://kandalaya.org/
       GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
                      It is the mind that moves

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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 09-May-07, at 5:34 PM, PJ wrote:

>> name some. or name at least one or two (stick to those without lucky
>> and talented developers because we have already established that bsd
>> +luck+talent != danger)
>
> Sure.
>
> I just need a list of names of projects that are important && that
> will be unlucky && that will not have very talented developers  
> sustaining
> development of the project as it grows.
>
> I lack clairvoyant powers myself and I don't have a research team  
> on tap for
> assessing how good a project is.

so, in short, your statement that many important BSD projects are in  
danger is not based on any factual knowledge or research.


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/




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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

PJ wrote:
> Kenneth Gonsalves writes:
> 
>> name some. or name at least one or two (stick to those without lucky  
>> and talented developers because we have already established that bsd 
>> +luck+talent != danger)
> 
> 
> 2. Use your clairvoyance to figure out which project is going to be unlucky 
> and
> which is going to be unable to keep talent interested in sustaining 
> development
> if the software is usurped.
> 
> They're the projects at risk of losing dominance to MS, which can usurp the 
> code
> and throw lots of people to Embrace->Extend->Extinguish the original.

I have a feeling that Kenneth is just asking for some facts behind your
theory of how BSD code is being abused by M$ and its ilk. Too many
people throw the "BSD networking stack" as an example whenever this
discussion comes up, but are at a loss when asked for examples beyond that.

When you were asked about Apache and Mozilla projects, instead of
admitting exceptions to this theory, you turned to "luck" as an abstract
 non-verifiable factor. How about some concrete examples of the
"failure" of BSD licenses?

BTW, there are a lot of Apache foundation projects apart from the web
server. There is a huge java set of libraries on which a significant
part of the Java development in the world is based. Oh yes, there is
openssl too, in case, you have forgotten.

Both GPL and BSD style licences more or less were introduced around the
same time - 1989. [1] [2]

If BSD style licences are doomed to failure, how come this licence, even
though not as popular as GPL (actually I believe its lack of popularity
is partly because of FUD by GPL evangelists), is thriving 18 years later?

The whole purpose behind the Apache Java projects is to provide a free
set of libraries for the developer community regardless of which camp
they are from - open source or closed source. So what you are saying is
that all these developers are completely out of their mind and are
wasting their precious hours of life working "for others financial benefit"?

For a change, get out for a minute from shade of GPL (over?)evangelism
and appreciate other movements who have a different approach to the same
ultimate aim for both the BSD and GPL licences - a world where software
is [fF]ree. Even if you don't agree to their approach, atleast admit
that they have a different POV to the solution. Don't vilify them. They
are on your side.

- Sandip

[1] http://www.crackmonkey.org/~nick/mail/bsd-license-history-in-a-nutsac

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Public_Licence#Version_1


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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

On 09-May-07, at 1:49 PM, PJ wrote:
> > Other less-established but important projects under any BSD style  
> > licence are
> > still at risk.

Kenneth Gonsalves writes:

> name some. or name at least one or two (stick to those without lucky  
> and talented developers because we have already established that bsd 
> +luck+talent != danger)

Sure.

I just need a list of names of projects that are important && that
will be unlucky && that will not have very talented developers sustaining
development of the project as it grows.

I lack clairvoyant powers myself and I don't have a research team on tap for
assessing how good a project is.

But I can give you an algorithm you can use to help you along:

1. Go to sourceforge or freshmeat and get your research team to list the BSD
licenced projects that sound cool and haven't hit mainstream MS windows usage
yet.

2. Use your clairvoyance to figure out which project is going to be unlucky and
which is going to be unable to keep talent interested in sustaining development
if the software is usurped.

They're the projects at risk of losing dominance to MS, which can usurp the code
and throw lots of people to Embrace->Extend->Extinguish the original.

PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 09-May-07, at 1:49 PM, PJ wrote:

> Other less-established but important projects under any BSD style  
> licence are
> still at risk.

name some. or name at least one or two (stick to those without lucky  
and talented developers because we have already established that bsd 
+luck+talent != danger)


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/




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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

> On 09-May-07, at 10:38 AM, PJ wrote:
> 
> > BSD style licencing is better than most, but such licences have had a
> > role in helping MS Windows to its current position (which is why Bill
> > Gates favours them).

Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> and which is why apache is running rings around IIS

Your remark is illogical. IIS hasn't hijacked apache code to try to get
itself dominance. My argument was that MS windows has hijacked BSD licenced
code to help itself achieve dominance.

Your remark does raise the issue of why apache dominates IIS for webserving.

In this specific case:

The apache core developers are incredibly talented, and apache gained market
share earlier on. IIS joined battle later but hasn't really gone beyond
the initial inroads in market share due to apache's initial first mover
advantage and apache's technical superiority.

Another thing that helped apache avoid getting taken over was the Apache
licence itself (in pre version 2 licences) requiring that the origin of
the code be accredited - which is something MS wouldn't have cared for in
say, MS Apache, based on apache. Especially after it had poured so much
effort into IIS. The adverse publicity resulting from such credit would not
have been good for MS's image.

About such rebranding: The Apache 2 licence has made it easier now to
close off and sell your own apache, but the fact that Apache is so strongly
established means that any such closing off isn't really likely to be
worthwhile. So I don't see any danger of code usurpation for Apache for the
forseeable future.

Other less-established but important projects under any BSD style licence are
still at risk. They're relying at least partially on luck to prevent themselves
from hijacking.

YMMV
PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 09-May-07, at 10:38 AM, PJ wrote:

> BSD style licencing is better than most, but such licences have had a
> role in helping MS Windows to its current position (which is why Bill
> Gates favours them).

and which is why apache is running rings around IIS - please mix in a  
few facts also into your fantasies


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/




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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

> Kenneth Gonsalves writes:
> > in short, people who use BSD licenses are talented and lucky - I  
> > could live with that

PJ writes:
> Not relying on luck in the first place would seem wiser.

I would also suggest that the hall-of-shame type of sites; spam; 
viruses and evil botnets are a consequence of what you get when luck 
runs out. When luck runs out, then FOSS is unable to dominate despite 
its technical superiority, because the reality is that a convicted 
monopolist is using and abusing his market share to prevent competition 
and delivering his own shoddy product instead.

BSD style licencing is better than most, but such licences have had a 
role in helping MS Windows to its current position (which is why Bill 
Gates favours them).  As a result of proprietary, closed source 
dominance, the net is now blessed with unending spam, viruses, evil 
botnets and sites that only work for Internet Explorer. So something 
even better than such BSD style licences seems wiser for overall IT 
development in the future.

Otherwise we are condemned to repeat history.

PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> in short, people who use BSD licenses are talented and lucky - I  
> could live with that

Not relying on luck in the first place would seem wiser.

PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 07-May-07, at 10:13 PM, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

>> All you guys are fucking imbeciles.
>
> My goodness.  Such a perfect example of looking into a mirror.

more like a microsoft marketing slogan - eye-catching, grammaticaly  
correct but contributes nothing to the discussion


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/




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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 07-May-07, at 9:55 PM, PJ wrote:

>> Incidently how come things like apache
>> and postgresql are surviving inspite of bsd style licenses - not  
>> to speak about
>> perl, php, python etc etc. Or are the authors of all these morons  
>> who dont
>> understand what is freedom?
>
> The authors of these were talented enough to establish enough of a  
> market share
> fast enough to be relatively immune to the embrace/extend/ 
> extinguish technique. I
> believe they were also somewhat lucky to avoid getting hijacked by  
> Microsoft.

in short, people who use BSD licenses are talented and lucky - I  
could live with that


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/




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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Mon, 07 May 2007 15:31:24 +0530, Pankaj kaushal
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:  

> All you guys are fucking imbeciles.

My goodness.  Such a perfect example of looking into a mirror.

manoj
-- 
It's bad enough that life is a rat-race, but why do the rats always have
to win?
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


> as far as I am concerned, both gpl and bsd style licenses have their place. I
> would reserve gpl for really innovative code (and there is very little of 
> that)
> and keep bsd style licenses for the rest.

I understand your reasoning though your conclusion is fallacious since it
doesn't look at the longer term.

> Incidently how come things like apache
> and postgresql are surviving inspite of bsd style licenses - not to speak 
> about
> perl, php, python etc etc. Or are the authors of all these morons who dont
> understand what is freedom?

The authors of these were talented enough to establish enough of a market share
fast enough to be relatively immune to the embrace/extend/extinguish technique. 
I
believe they were also somewhat lucky to avoid getting hijacked by Microsoft.

Activeperl and its ilk were a danger earlier on to perl. Microsoft java and
microsoft Jscript had their chance too to destroy bits of software freedom.
I think luck played a hand there too in avoiding hijack.

It is said that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance - but a bit of luck
certainly helps too, even though it is wiser not to count on it.

PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Pankaj kaushal]

All you guys are fucking imbeciles.

P.
-- 
Wir wollen dass ihr uns alles glaubt.

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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Raj Mathur]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Monday 07 May 2007 11:27, Anant Narayanan wrote:
> [snip]
> When someone makes minor changes to BSD-licensed code it is unlikely
> that they are going to make millions of dollars out of it. If they
> are, chances are that they've made significant changes to the code.

Once again, not meaning to get into a GPL-vs-BSD war here, but...

If I take the whole IP stack from BSD and copy it as is into a desktop 
OS (for the sake of argument, say Winduhs), would you call that a 
significant change?  All the algorithms, all the flows, all the bugs...  
Sorry, your argument doesn't hold: it's possible to take major chunks 
of code and incorporate them into your application with minor or no 
changes.

Regards,

- -- Raju
- -- 
Raj Mathur           [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://kandalaya.org/
       GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
                      It is the mind that moves
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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Raj Mathur]

On Monday 07 May 2007 11:36, Anant Narayanan wrote:
> [snip]
> Anything is excess is bad, and in a world where "good" is a relative
> term, it is not tough to interpret FSF's actions as monopolistic.
> Basically you could say that the FSF is the Microsoft of the other
> side :)

I fail to see the similarity between someone working to own all your 
software and someone working towards enabling YOU to own all your 
software.

-- 
Raj Mathur           [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://kandalaya.org/
       GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Anant Narayanan]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> as far as I am concerned, both gpl and bsd style licenses have their place. I
> would reserve gpl for really innovative code (and there is very little of 
> that)
> and keep bsd style licenses for the rest. Incidently how come things like 
> apache
> and postgresql are surviving inspite of bsd style licenses - not to speak 
> about
> perl, php, python etc etc. Or are the authors of all these morons who dont
> understand what is freedom?

I agree. I am not asking everyone to switch to BSD-style licenses; but
rather refrain from eliminating a BSD-style license as an option.
BSD-style licenses are required to keep "balance" in the software world.

Anything is excess is bad, and in a world where "good" is a relative
term, it is not tough to interpret FSF's actions as monopolistic.
Basically you could say that the FSF is the Microsoft of the other side :)

--
Anant

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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Anant Narayanan]

PJ wrote:
> The GPL compatible licences are designed to preserve freedom for the users.
> The BSD style licences have helped Microsoft take away freedom from the users.

I disagree. Something licensed under the BSD license always remains free
and the source code open to all. It is only when changes are made to it
that this "freedom" vanishes.

When someone makes minor changes to BSD-licensed code it is unlikely
that they are going to make millions of dollars out of it. If they are,
chances are that they've made significant changes to the code.

The point is, true freedom means the developer decides how he wants the
code licensed. Once a developer switches to GPL, he goes down a one-way
path (thereby ending his freedom) while BSD-style licenses give you
enough flexibility to rethink your decisions.

--
Anant

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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[lawgon]

Quoting Anant Narayanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> >> Well, in software,
> >> there are several known examples where Microsoft has taken BSD code,
> altered
> >> it, and tried to lock users in to their way of doing things so that they
> can
> >> exploit them forever after. To an extent they have succeeded more than
> failed.
> > 
> > This is the reason why GPL is important.
> 
> GPL has redefined the word "freedom". True freedom means that anyone can
> do whatever they want with code. Hence the BSD style licenses are truly
> "free". GPL-like freedom, on the other hand is "forced freedom". Forced
> freedom, IMHO, is as good as no freedom at all.

as far as I am concerned, both gpl and bsd style licenses have their place. I
would reserve gpl for really innovative code (and there is very little of that)
and keep bsd style licenses for the rest. Incidently how come things like apache
and postgresql are surviving inspite of bsd style licenses - not to speak about
perl, php, python etc etc. Or are the authors of all these morons who dont
understand what is freedom?
> 
> --
> Anant
> 
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> 



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[lawgon]

Quoting PJ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


> > I would not agree that Freedel has been on a reasonable footing.
> > Edition 2 was a bit of a flop.
> 
> Why do you say that?

i wasnt there, but was told that especially on the second day attendance was
extremely thin. If I was misinformed, my apologies

regards
kg



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

Anant Narayanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


> 
> GPL has redefined the word "freedom". True freedom means that anyone can
> do whatever they want with code. Hence the BSD style licenses are truly
> "free". GPL-like freedom, on the other hand is "forced freedom". Forced
> freedom, IMHO, is as good as no freedom at all.


The GPL compatible licences are designed to preserve freedom for the users.
The BSD style licences have helped Microsoft take away freedom from the users.

Restrictions and rules are generally a bad idea, but if they prevent
worse things happening, then I am convinced that they are justified.

The freedom without rules that you advocate doesn't actually work in
real life.

In real life, Somalia, without a government for about a decade, has had
pockets of thriving free enterprise in a morass of mercenary madness. It
is an excellent indication of the fundamental driving nature behind the
struggle for software freedom.

PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

> On 5/5/07, PJ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
> > The GPL [...] has a restriction that is designed to prevent
> > non-sharing of code.

Shakthi Kannan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> How?

I am unsure if that was a rhetorical question.

> GPL has four freedoms:
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

The answer to your question lies in the explicitly stated preconditions of
freedoms 2 and 4.

For clarity for others reading this, the restriction goes something like 
(in readable english):

"Go ahead and tweak this code, sell it, do whatever you like with it. The only
restriction is, that if you distribute this code as a binary, you must provide
the source."

That is the restriction that underpins GPL. Its intention is clearly to
preserve freedom for the user. It has certainly succeeded in that.

The BSD style licences are not designed to preserve freedom for the users, and
have helped usurpers like Microsoft to step in and take away user freedoms.

PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Viksit Gaur]

Thanks for the responses all. Lots of threads, lots of
people, I'm going to mix and match responses here.
Mine begin inline, with a ==

PJ:
.. I am unsure of your objection. Logically, being
freed doesn't mean that you
are forever free. You still run the risk of being
enslaved again...

== We haven't been freed. Yet. I'm not going into what
happens after! Really, with all the effort there is
about FOSS, it might have reduced costs and helped you
with better alternatives and given you choices in what
you want to use, but really, it hasn't really freed
people completely. You've still got your shackles on -
albeit different ones - whether it be unable to find
drivers for your graphics card, or setting up a
bluetooth device to "just work". Nope, we've got a
long way to go before we can talk about having been
freed. And perhaps the conference can embody this.

The point does arise - is this Freed as in Gratis or
Freed as in Libre? I think that the logo for the event
should make that clear in no uncertain terms. Free as
in speech or beer? (See tagline comment later on)

PJ:
Anyway, attend the meetings if you have an interest in
the reasoning behind
ilugd decisions - it's open to all GNU/Linux users, we
welcome inputs, and all
proposals can be questioned/modified etc...  

== As much as I'd like to, I find it impossible to do
so, given the size of a couple of sizeable water
bodies which impede my journey.. Perhaps the other
thread which Gora started will help out in this case.

PJ:
3. we wanted to move on from the very localised
regionalism of Delhi embodied by
the "del" part of "freedel". But still acknowledge our
regional bias loosely. So
we could hold freed in Nepal, freed in Bangalore,
freed in Thailand etc. Don't
forget, we have "Bangalore chapter" of ILUGD ;-)

== Fair enough. And no, I don't forget - I was one of
the *cough* 'founding members' :)

6. The concept of freedom is bigger than that of
Linux, or even GNU/Linux to
most of us. So we might push the creative commons
concepts too (at least the
"free" CC licences that have resulted in sites like
http://www.wikipedia.com for
knowledge, http://www.jamendo.com for music etc).

== Hmm. So the focus is going to be towards everything
free, not just software. At some point, that will want
to encompass rights, DRM, and other EFF/ACLU promoted
causes. Do we want to tackle that beast? I would shy
away. So again, Gratis vs Libre et al.


Kenneth:
this is not a good idea. The Indian foss community is
very allergic  
to anything that aspires to All India Status. First
establish freedel  
in Delhi - that has not been done yet, then worry
about going all  
india. One thing we have learnt in the last 10 years
is that the  
strength of the Indian foss community is in the
regional bases. We  
must strengthen those.

== I think that most conferences which are organized
today _are_ in fact through the participation of
people from all over the country - foss.in or freedel.
So yes, I agree that removing del from the name makes
some sense. As for regional bases, now that we know
(from apparently a 10 year experience) that they're
strong, its time to perhaps combine them together and
strengthen the national ethic?

PJ:
I don't know if the (constitutional type) of rules of
ILUGD say that
ILUGD should be about Linux rather than GNU/Linux.

== Erk, lets not go down this road. There are months
of threads on the list which talk about this. 

I'm interested in the free as in freedom part of what
ILUGD is about. The
impression I get is that ILUGD tends to be heavily
focussed on the free as
in freedom part.

== Each to his own, surely?

So there is indeed a religious bias in ILUGD against
*BSD/windOSS/macOSS.

== Interesting to see how you would draw that
conclusion based on your your impressions! Bias? Not
in so many words, imho. A certain itch perhaps.

>> But still acknowledge our regional  
>> bias loosely.

== Now, what exactly does that mean?

PJ:
Me and some others regard the extra freedom of the BSD
style licences as being
analogous to the granting freedom to a plantation
holder to own slaves, or
perhaps granting freedom to the religious authorities
to burn non-believers at
the stake in an auto da fé.

Just because a freedom is there, doesn't mean you
should seize it. Some
things are immoral, even if you are free to do them.
So those immoral things
should be specifically restricted.

== Erm. As analogies go, that has to be one of the
most superfluous I've ever seen. If someone releases a
license like that, they are doing 
so with full knowledge of what it implies. If you
think its immoral, just don't use it! That option's
still yours isn't it? And there are worse things out
there than BSD licenses you know. Software patents
perhaps. DRM. Rattlesnakes. 

..a non-free platform initially. But once you have
truly free alternatives
available, it is wrong to promote non-free works..

== Who defines the concept of universal "Wrong" here?

[Skipping Off Off OFF Topic GPL vs BSD debat

Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Sudev Barar]

On 06/05/07, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, 06 May 2007 02:05:40 +0530, Sandip Bhattacharya said:
> > Anant Narayanan wrote:
>  Well, in software, there are several known examples where Microsoft

eeer no [OT] or {WayOT] tag there??

Important stuff this and refreshing that all on list will get insights
here but this is getting way off topic.

Back to topic with lot of inter spread comments :
Minutes are results of hours of deliberations (likely mangled
mis-quote that!!) so it is difficult for Gora (who is doing an
admirable job)  to put is "essence" of discussion. Terse or otherwise,
the intention for community respect is very much there in decision
making and most of us ( and I hope that means me as well) try to keep
the intentions of community development and involvement in our
thoughts while voting one way or other.

But then community has to participate more (comment  : just like
voters in a democracy are supposed to but hardly do and only bemoan)
to be heard and by those "managing" (by devoting their volunteer
time). Even on this list right now there are only a handful (okay
granted two handful) of people discussing while majority are only
reading (or just deleting??? ye gawd!!)
So as I said yesterday there are many words ( #dict freed ) that can
try to capture essence of what all we want (the problem here is we may
want different variants of same thing) but my suggestion *and not
dictate) would be to go with Freed as long as most (see comment on
democracy) of us feel that this does represent most (see comment on
democracy) of the views.

{Turning around and reading what I have belched out thus far and
getting no sense ;-(thus deciding to stop right here}
-- 
Regards,
Sudev Barar

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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Sun, 06 May 2007 02:05:40 +0530, Sandip Bhattacharya said: 

> Anant Narayanan wrote:
 Well, in software, there are several known examples where Microsoft
 has taken BSD code, altered it, and tried to lock users in to their
 way of doing things so that they can exploit them forever after. To
 an extent they have succeeded more than failed.
>>> This is the reason why GPL is important.
>> 
>> GPL has redefined the word "freedom". True freedom means that anyone
>> can do whatever they want with code. Hence the BSD style licenses are
>> truly "free". GPL-like freedom, on the other hand is "forced
>> freedom". Forced freedom, IMHO, is as good as no freedom at all.

> While it is true that FSF has "tainted" the original meaning of the
> english word "Free" and made it more like "free with strings
> attached", one should not confuse the intent here.

Free speech also has strings attached.  Shouting fire in a
 crowded theater as a prank. Libel. Slander. All kinds of strings are
 attached to free speech in societies that profess to embrace it --
 all in the interest of the kinds of behaviour the society would like to
 encourage, and limitations placed on the kinds of speech that can hurt
 others.

If you think free software is a "tainted" meaning of the word
 free, then free speech is similarly  tainted.

manoj
-- 
I love you more than anything in this world.  I don't expect that will
last. Elvis Costello
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

Anant Narayanan wrote:
>>> Well, in software,
>>> there are several known examples where Microsoft has taken BSD code, altered
>>> it, and tried to lock users in to their way of doing things so that they can
>>> exploit them forever after. To an extent they have succeeded more than 
>>> failed.
>> This is the reason why GPL is important.
> 
> GPL has redefined the word "freedom". True freedom means that anyone can
> do whatever they want with code. Hence the BSD style licenses are truly
> "free". GPL-like freedom, on the other hand is "forced freedom". Forced
> freedom, IMHO, is as good as no freedom at all.

While it is true that FSF has "tainted" the original meaning of the
english word "Free" and made it more like "free with strings attached",
one should not confuse the intent here.

There are two parties here - the developers and the users. What you
mention as "Forced freedom" is forced only on developers. The license is
not there in the first place  to help developers - it is to help/protect
*users*. When a developer offers a truly original software under GPL, he
is merely ensuring that the users benefit from it in every manner in
perpetuity. That is his intention - if you do not share that
intention, you don't get to use it. There is absolutely no
space for the developer to complain. This is just the same way the
commercial world operates - remember the M$ rider to its new libraries
which states that their libraries should not be used to make "viral"
software like GPL'ed software? Think of GPL restrictions as just a
clause of a commercial vendor which is incompatible to the needs of your
company.

I believe that the biggest reason behind this misunderstanding is that
developers from the commercial space carry their mindset from that
market to the FOSS world. FOSS libraries are here to help the
community - not developers who don't share the egalitarian POV of this
community.

- Sandip



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Anant Narayanan]

>> Well, in software,
>> there are several known examples where Microsoft has taken BSD code, altered
>> it, and tried to lock users in to their way of doing things so that they can
>> exploit them forever after. To an extent they have succeeded more than 
>> failed.
> 
> This is the reason why GPL is important.

GPL has redefined the word "freedom". True freedom means that anyone can
do whatever they want with code. Hence the BSD style licenses are truly
"free". GPL-like freedom, on the other hand is "forced freedom". Forced
freedom, IMHO, is as good as no freedom at all.

--
Anant

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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Shakthi Kannan]

Hi,

Not sure if this is going off-topic. Anyways, my thoughts below:

On 5/5/07, PJ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Me and some others regard the extra freedom of the BSD style licences as being
> analogous to the granting freedom to a plantation holder to own slaves,

Isn't that cruel?

> The GPL, for those who are wondering about this analogy, and in particular
> how it applies to software, has a restriction that is designed to prevent
> non-sharing of code.

How? GPL has four freedoms:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

> In contrast, the BSD allows a company
> to take the code, alter it and sell it as its own without accrediting the
> original developer, and without sharing the modified code.

... for their selfish, greedy needs without any consideration or
respect for the users.

> Well, in software,
> there are several known examples where Microsoft has taken BSD code, altered
> it, and tried to lock users in to their way of doing things so that they can
> exploit them forever after. To an extent they have succeeded more than failed.

This is the reason why GPL is important.

SK

-- 
Shakthi Kannan
http://www.shakthimaan.com

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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

I wrote:
> > > I'm interested in the free as in freedom part of what ILUGD is  
> > about. The
> > impression I get is that ILUGD tends to be heavily focussed on the  
> > free as
> > in freedom part.

Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> in which case you have to focus on FOSS - regardless of platform,  
> rather than linux or the more narrow GNU/Linux

No. FOSS has ambiguity in the implied freedom, in particular
it doesn't differentiate between GNU and BSD styles of freedom.

I wrote:
> > So there is indeed a religious bias in ILUGD against *BSD/windOSS/ 
> > macOSS.

Kenneth wrote:
> you have a bias against things like freebsd, openbsd and pcbsd too?  

Yes. They're a sect that are better than proprietary. But they have some
flawed doctrines.

> afaik they are more free than your GNU/Linux.

Sure, but the fact that you seem to regard them as better as a result of
this greater freedom is the flaw. The question comes down to a bias of:
Is such a self-destructive freedom morally justifiable?

Like I said, it is a religious bias.

Me and some others regard the extra freedom of the BSD style licences as being
analogous to the granting freedom to a plantation holder to own slaves, or
perhaps granting freedom to the religious authorities to burn non-believers at
the stake in an auto da fé.

Just because a freedom is there, doesn't mean you should seize it. Some
things are immoral, even if you are free to do them. So those immoral things
should be specifically restricted.

The GPL, for those who are wondering about this analogy, and in particular
how it applies to software, has a restriction that is designed to prevent
apropriation and non-sharing of code. In contrast, the BSD allows a company
to take the code, alter it and sell it as its own without accrediting the
original developer, and without sharing the modified code. Which is something
that Theo de Raadt, a leading BSD developer has somewhat ironically bemoaned.

Where is the danger in this in free culture and works? Well, in software,
there are several known examples where Microsoft has taken BSD code, altered
it, and tried to lock users in to their way of doing things so that they can
exploit them forever after. To an extent they have succeeded more than failed.
In music, the song "Happy Birthday" was appropriated by Warner Brothers under
dubious circumstances and is still under copyright. George Michael's "Last
Christmas" was almost certainly a lift of Barry Manilow's "Can't Smile
Without You" and he got into trouble for that. It's a whole lot more than
all this, but the tenet I hold is that freedom of expression requires
protection from locking in/fencing in.

> the One True Way is FOSS - regardless of platform

I wish it was that simple.

> I would not agree that Freedel has been on a reasonable footing.
> Edition 2 was a bit of a flop.

Why do you say that?
 
> In that case GNU/Linux is even narrower than linux and if you are  
> excluding BSDs and FOSS for other platforms, and i suppose in the  
> cultural world anything written, composed, drawn with proprietary  
> software even if released under CC - I dont think you going to go  
> very far.

Depending on; creating; and using free-as-in-beer and proprietary works
to move to true freedom is not wrong. GNU software itself was built on
a non-free platform initially. But once you have truly free alternatives
available, it is wrong to promote non-free works.

> We cant afford to  
> have various groups setting up conferences and planning to hold the  
> same conference in different parts of the country. It is not going to  
> happen - and will be disruptive.

Freed doesn't have the same agenda as Foss.in or Linux Asia, though
there will be some overlap. And rather than disruption, I'd regard
it as competition. Competition is good as far as I am concerned -
it is a selection pressure to improve things.

PJ


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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 05-May-07, at 3:25 PM, PJ wrote:

> Good point Kenneth.
>
> I don't know if the (constitutional type) of rules of ILUGD say that
> ILUGD should be about Linux rather than GNU/Linux.
>
> I choose to use the label GNU/Linux (if I can remember to) because  
> for me
> the concept of freedom embodied by GNU is more important than the  
> Linux part.
> I'm interested in the free as in freedom part of what ILUGD is  
> about. The
> impression I get is that ILUGD tends to be heavily focussed on the  
> free as
> in freedom part.

in which case you have to focus on FOSS - regardless of platform,  
rather than linux or the more narrow GNU/Linux

>
> So there is indeed a religious bias in ILUGD against *BSD/windOSS/ 
> macOSS.

you have a bias against things like freebsd, openbsd and pcbsd too?  
afaik they are more free than your GNU/Linux.

>
> But all kinds of people are welcome to join and change that bias.  
> Just as
> the current crew will try and maintain that bias by converting you  
> to the
> One True Way ;-)

the One True Way is FOSS - regardless of platform
>
>> First establish freedel
>> in Delhi - that has not been done yet, then worry about going all
>> india.
>
> I disagree. Freedel has been on a reasonable footing so far and has  
> not
> been particularly Delhi centric in the talks that were given, though
> they were held in Delhi during that phase.

I would not agree that Freedel has been on a reasonable footing.  
Edition 2 was a bit of a flop. Right now, three conferences could be  
said to be established - foss.in, calicut foss meet and the pune one.  
It would be nice to have a fourth in the north. And none of the three  
mentioned have any regional content - they just happen to be in  
different regions.

>
> Also, the people behind Freed don't want to focus exclusively on  
> linux per se.
> Freed is about the concepts of freedom behind GNU/Linux, free  
> software and
> free culture - concepts that are bigger than just Delhi (and  
> linux). This is
> reflected in the name change.

In that case GNU/Linux is even narrower than linux and if you are  
excluding BSDs and FOSS for other platforms, and i suppose in the  
cultural world anything written, composed, drawn with proprietary  
software even if released under CC - I dont think you going to go  
very far.

>
>> One thing we have learnt in the last 10 years is that the
>> strength of the Indian foss community is in the regional bases. We
>> must strengthen those.
>
> Yes, the strength of the linux community is anchored in local groups.
> But there is a strength in the sharing of ideas behind GNU/linux over
> larger regions.
>
> It's the same for freedom.
>
> You apply the ideas locally - but the principles behind them are  
> global.

I agree - so apply them locally in that region. We cant afford to  
have various groups setting up conferences and planning to hold the  
same conference in different parts of the country. It is not going to  
happen - and will be disruptive.


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/




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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

Sandip Bhattacharya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Note that I am not saying that it is obligatory for anybody present to answer
these queries.
> I am only saying that we are not rebuffed with a canned "you should have been
at the meeting"
> answer.
> 

You're quite right. A canned response like that is wrong. Sometimes someone
can step forward (like I did) and elaborately answer such queries if they
have the time. But sometimes people don't have the time, as I am sure you
understand.

Gora's opened a thread on trying to improve this situation.

PJ


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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On 05-May-07, at 11:31 AM, PJ wrote:
> 
> > Anyway, attend the meetings if you have an interest in the  
> > reasoning behind
> > ilugd decisions - it's open to all GNU/Linux users, we welcome  
> > inputs, and all
> > proposals can be questioned/modified etc.
> 
> what about those who object to the name GNU/Linux? are they not  
> welcome? And the *bsd people? And those who write OSS on windoze? And  
> mac users who write OSS?

Good point Kenneth.

I don't know if the (constitutional type) of rules of ILUGD say that
ILUGD should be about Linux rather than GNU/Linux.

I choose to use the label GNU/Linux (if I can remember to) because for me
the concept of freedom embodied by GNU is more important than the Linux part.
I'm interested in the free as in freedom part of what ILUGD is about. The
impression I get is that ILUGD tends to be heavily focussed on the free as
in freedom part.

So there is indeed a religious bias in ILUGD against *BSD/windOSS/macOSS.

But all kinds of people are welcome to join and change that bias. Just as
the current crew will try and maintain that bias by converting you to the
One True Way ;-)

> > 3. we wanted to move on from the very localised regionalism of  
> > Delhi embodied by
> > the "del" part of "freedel". But still acknowledge our regional  
> > bias loosely. So
> > we could hold freed in Nepal, freed in Bangalore, freed in Thailand  
> > etc. Don't
> > forget, we have "Bangalore chapter" of ILUGD 
> 
> this is not a good idea. The Indian foss community is very allergic  
> to anything that aspires to All India Status.

"anything" is too broad a word, but an excellent point.

The community is rightly allergic about a local linux group trying to get all
India status because a local group can hardly be representative of non-local
groups.

But freed is aimed to be about freedom in the long term. It is not aimed at
being the "linux event organized by ILUGD," although its roots are
acknowledged as being prominently there for now.

Which brings me to this point:

> First establish freedel  
> in Delhi - that has not been done yet, then worry about going all  
> india.

I disagree. Freedel has been on a reasonable footing so far and has not
been particularly Delhi centric in the talks that were given, though
they were held in Delhi during that phase.

Also, the people behind Freed don't want to focus exclusively on linux per se.
Freed is about the concepts of freedom behind GNU/Linux, free software and
free culture - concepts that are bigger than just Delhi (and linux). This is
reflected in the name change.

> One thing we have learnt in the last 10 years is that the  
> strength of the Indian foss community is in the regional bases. We  
> must strengthen those.

Yes, the strength of the linux community is anchored in local groups.
But there is a strength in the sharing of ideas behind GNU/linux over
larger regions.

It's the same for freedom.

You apply the ideas locally - but the principles behind them are global.

YMMV
PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

Sudev Barar wrote:
> Yep, one of the LUGD-Bang guys. Howdy.

Hey, Sudev. How are ya? ;)

> FREED : My take is that it can be one or the other. Domain
> availability was one not so smal consideration. 

One thing that escapes me. Do we absolutely need to have a separate
domain for the event? A separate domain has its advantages, but having
a domain like http://freed.linux-delhi.org is not so bad either.

Regardless of whether we want non-delhi participation, Freed is only
going to be organized by ILUGD, right? Or is it planned to be rotated among
other cities, like people keep talking about foss.in? If the former, then what
is so wrong about mentioning the Delhi roots?

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

> Of course you have every right to discuss any decision on the mailing list,
> and even dispute it for that matter. However, I hope you realise that it is
> difficult to cater to every demand on this list. For example, it took me
> nearly two hours to prepare the minutes that you describe as too terse, and

Sigh. You misunderstand my point. Meeting minutes are generally terse, and 
not more elaborate than what you have been making them. I really appreciate 
your efforts
in this regard since, historically in ILUGD, reporting comprehensive minutes 
of meetings have often been overlooked.

My point is not that we have more elaborate minutes. It is more that sometimes 
when we
would need more information on a particular point of the meeting, it is ok for
us to ask about it on the list. Also, if we would like to discuss a particular 
point
of the meeting, it is ok for us to discuss it on list.

Note that I am not saying that it is obligatory for anybody present to answer 
these queries.
I am only saying that we are not rebuffed with a canned "you should have been 
at the meeting"
answer.

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Sudev Barar]

On 05/05/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Anyway, attend the meetings if you have an interest in the reasoning
> >> behind
> >> ilugd decisions - it's open to all GNU/Linux users, we welcome inputs,
> >> and all
> >> proposals can be questioned/modified etc.
> >
> > I would attend it if it is possible. I realize I don't have the right to
> > dispute

Yep, one of the LUGD-Bang guys. Howdy.

> > decisions if I had not been there when it was being discussed and made.
> > But I hope
> > that *discussing* (I know a very thin line separates it from disputing)
> > decisions
> > is not too unfair, is it? Meeting minute

As Gora said. All discussions and observations welcome.

[SNIP]
> this kind of involvement from people on a mailing list, the one possibility
> being setting up video-conferencing.

Oh...I think I will have to mind my profile at the meetings now ;-)
Who is the sponsorer for vid-conf?

FREED : My take is that it can be one or the other. Domain
availability was one not so smal consideration. Liberty. freedom,
choice etc. ( and countless derrivatives) all could be candidates. IAC
now that this has been done by a small group of people (including me)
let ILUGD members all push i the same direction.

And AFAIK FreeDel did not do too badly and if it has to grow into
bigger avataar as Freed all  hands on the deck please.
-- 
Regards,
Sudev Barar

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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[gora]

> Viksit Gaur wrote:
>> Hullo,
>>
>> I'm trying to figure out what this name embodies.
>>
>> "Freed" elicits, atleast in me, notions of a bunch of
>> previously subjugated people now unshackled by
>> something.  Not necessarily with respect to FOSS. It
>> could be a revolt, a coup de etat or whatever. Freed
>> 2007 would make a great libertarian conference, going
>> by names alone.
>
> I am interpreting this name in exactly the same way. If we(viksit and me)
> are right,
> and that was the intention by the society, then the name is dangerously
> deceptive.
> We haven't achieved software freedom yet, and in any  case, we
> should always emphasize that fighting for freedom is a lifelong process -
> as they say "Fighting to get freedom is not enough, we have to keep
> fighting
> forever to preserve it".

In my opinion, both of you have looked only at the name, and not the
associated tagline: Freedom in technology and software. At the same
time, I strongly disagree that the event is about freedom in software
alone, though that is certainly the current focus. The name implies
that we are interested in the concept of freedom in related areas too,
such as in collaborative sharing, in music, video, etc., and do not
wish to restrict ourselves just to a software ghetto. It also lends
itself to puns, and is catchy while being concise. I am not sure how
you guys derive the idea that the name says that what we are
talking about is a one-time thing, nor how it implies that we have
already achieved software freedom.
  PJ has already done a great job of explaining the reasoning behind
the choice of name, so I will refrain from following up on that.

Regards,
Gora


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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[gora]

>
>> Anyway, attend the meetings if you have an interest in the reasoning
>> behind
>> ilugd decisions - it's open to all GNU/Linux users, we welcome inputs,
>> and all
>> proposals can be questioned/modified etc.
>
> I would attend it if it is possible. I realize I don't have the right to
> dispute
> decisions if I had not been there when it was being discussed and made.
> But I hope
> that *discussing* (I know a very thin line separates it from disputing)
> decisions
> is not too unfair, is it? Meeting minutes are sometimes too terse for
> non-Delhi
> residents to understand why a decision was taken.

Of course you have every right to discuss any decision on the mailing list,
and even dispute it for that matter. However, I hope you realise that it is
difficult to cater to every demand on this list. For example, it took me
nearly two hours to prepare the minutes that you describe as too terse, and
I am certainly not agreeable to investing more time than that. The
discussions leading to the name, and other plans for the event, took more
than three meetings, and something of the order of 15-20 hours from
everyone who chose to participate. I do not see how we could possibly get
this kind of involvement from people on a mailing list, the one possibility
being setting up video-conferencing.

Regards,
Gora


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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

> Anyway, attend the meetings if you have an interest in the reasoning behind
> ilugd decisions - it's open to all GNU/Linux users, we welcome inputs, and all
> proposals can be questioned/modified etc.

I would attend it if it is possible. I realize I don't have the right to dispute
decisions if I had not been there when it was being discussed and made. But I 
hope
that *discussing* (I know a very thin line separates it from disputing) 
decisions 
is not too unfair, is it? Meeting minutes are sometimes too terse for non-Delhi 
residents to understand why a decision was taken. 

- Sandip

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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 05-May-07, at 11:31 AM, PJ wrote:

> Anyway, attend the meetings if you have an interest in the  
> reasoning behind
> ilugd decisions - it's open to all GNU/Linux users, we welcome  
> inputs, and all
> proposals can be questioned/modified etc.

what about those who object to the name GNU/Linux? are they not  
welcome? And the *bsd people? And those who write OSS on windoze? And  
mac users who write OSS?
>
> 3. we wanted to move on from the very localised regionalism of  
> Delhi embodied by
> the "del" part of "freedel". But still acknowledge our regional  
> bias loosely. So
> we could hold freed in Nepal, freed in Bangalore, freed in Thailand  
> etc. Don't
> forget, we have "Bangalore chapter" of ILUGD ;-)

this is not a good idea. The Indian foss community is very allergic  
to anything that aspires to All India Status. First establish freedel  
in Delhi - that has not been done yet, then worry about going all  
india. One thing we have learnt in the last 10 years is that the  
strength of the Indian foss community is in the regional bases. We  
must strengthen those.


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/




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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[PJ]

> 
> Viksit Gaur wrote:
> > 
> > "Freed" elicits, atleast in me, notions of a bunch of
> > previously subjugated people now unshackled by
> > something.  Not necessarily with respect to FOSS. It
> > could be a revolt, a coup de etat or whatever. Freed
> > 2007 would make a great libertarian conference, going
> > by names alone. 

Sandip Bhattacharya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I am interpreting this name in exactly the same way. If we(viksit and me) are
right,
> and that was the intention by the society, then the name is dangerously
deceptive. 
> We haven't achieved software freedom yet, and in any  case, we 
> should always emphasize that fighting for freedom is a lifelong process -
> as they say "Fighting to get freedom is not enough, we have to keep fighting
> forever to preserve it".
> 
> - Sandip

I am unsure of your objection. Logically, being freed doesn't mean that you
are forever free. You still run the risk of being enslaved again.

If your objection is that people take freedom for granted and won't keep
working  to safeguard it, well, that's certainly something we wish to spread
awareness about too. But is there a catchy name that embodies that concept
better than "freed"?

Maybe something like:

 sheeple-stay-free

Nah, I don't think has the same ring about it.

Anyway, attend the meetings if you have an interest in the reasoning behind
ilugd decisions - it's open to all GNU/Linux users, we welcome inputs, and all
proposals can be questioned/modified etc.

The reasoning behind using freed in particular was:

1. to promote the concept of people using GNU/Linux being freed from the chains
of proprietary lock-in. This was the main concept. Certainly some of the ideas
cross over into the ideas behind libertarianism/revolt, but it wasn't
intentional.

2. the domain freed.in was available.

3. we wanted to move on from the very localised regionalism of Delhi embodied by
the "del" part of "freedel". But still acknowledge our regional bias loosely. So
we could hold freed in Nepal, freed in Bangalore, freed in Thailand etc. Don't
forget, we have "Bangalore chapter" of ILUGD ;-)

4. we could keep the same logo as before (the FD style logo) - though this was a
relatively minor consideration

5. It was short (1 syllable!) and sweet.

6. The concept of freedom is bigger than that of Linux, or even GNU/Linux to
most of us. So we might push the creative commons concepts too (at least the
"free" CC licences that have resulted in sites like http://www.wikipedia.com for
knowledge, http://www.jamendo.com for music etc).

YMMV
PJ



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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Mahesh T. Pai]

Viksit Gaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> "Freed" elicits, atleast in me, notions of a bunch of

How come nobody thought that this is a type for `Fred'?

 

-- 
 Mahesh T. Pai <<>> http://paivakil.blogspot.com/
Learn from the mistakes of others.
You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.


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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Saurabh Nanda]

>
> we should always emphasize that fighting for freedom is a lifelong process
> -
> as they say "Fighting to get freedom is not enough, we have to keep
> fighting
> forever to preserve it".


that's why the name "Free-d" -- as in daemon (aka ftpd, telnetd, sshd). So
it keeps waking up in intervals, fights for freedom, and goes to sleep :)

Sorry. Couldn't stop myself :P

Saurabh.
-- 
http://nandz.blogspot.com
http://foodieforlife.blogspot.com
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Re: [ilugd] Freed 2007 - Thoughts on the name?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

Viksit Gaur wrote:
> Hullo,
> 
> I'm trying to figure out what this name embodies.
> 
> "Freed" elicits, atleast in me, notions of a bunch of
> previously subjugated people now unshackled by
> something.  Not necessarily with respect to FOSS. It
> could be a revolt, a coup de etat or whatever. Freed
> 2007 would make a great libertarian conference, going
> by names alone. 

I am interpreting this name in exactly the same way. If we(viksit and me) are 
right,
and that was the intention by the society, then the name is dangerously 
deceptive. 
We haven't achieved software freedom yet, and in any  case, we 
should always emphasize that fighting for freedom is a lifelong process -
as they say "Fighting to get freedom is not enough, we have to keep fighting
forever to preserve it".

- Sandip

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