[LUTE] Re: Archlute strings

[Daniel Winheld]

-- Cheaper option, and actually a bit better in sound than Sofracob 
plain gut: (Sofracob) fret gut (you'd be surprised how many pro's do 
this anyway).

  Thanks! That's the kind of thinking I was looking for- I've already 
cheated with fret gut for courses where it should be "illegal" when 
caught short for a gut string at an inconvenient moment's notice. I 
may even have some fret gut to play with already- but I'm also hoping 
to hear if anyone can recommend, say, Savarez copper wound vs. Nylgut 
overspun  for excess brightness or vice versa- or whether any of the 
synthetic monofilaments work tolerably, although I don't think I 
could stomach the appearance of 6 or 7 of those bleached skull dead 
white nylguts spanning almost 100 cm. in their typical ghostly array.

Another not option are the new Type C loads- just got this email from 
Curtis Daily:

"The new Type C are available and are supposed to be very good, but 
they are also incredibly expensive. I recently priced out 6 lute 
basses for someone at $319.75. I won't be stocking them at those kind 
of prices and will only be getting them when someone orders them."

   -- David - has a 61/106cm archlute with single basses

I see we are in the same ballpark. Is yours based on a particular 
historical model? Mine was just a salvage operation, (done as a 
favor),  on an old, small 10 course.

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[LUTE] Archlute strings

[Daniel Winheld]

Hello all,

I have a small archlute (or a liuto attiorbato that's six eggs short 
of a dozen) - 64cm. lower, 97cm upper, 6 or 7 single diapasons. I 
have taken care of courses 1 - 5 to my provisional satisfaction and 
now want to improve on the La Bella diapasons, if that can be done 
without spending well over $300 on Dan Larson's gut diapasons. This 
is not one of my gut-kosher instruments; anything that sounds better 
than the most harsh overspuns, whether a better brand/style of 
overspun, or some other relatively inexpensive synthetic.

I'd like to know what others are doing, and what you might recommend- 
all suggestions welcomed, and thanks for same.

Bass string #8-E/Eb has the dual option of being outboard or inboard. 
As good a transition as reasonably possible from 5th to (probably) 
overspun 6th, and from lower to upper pegboxes is of concern.  Right 
now it's nylon 1 & 2, KF 3, 4, & 5, and La Bella overspun for all the 
rest. G nom. pitch, A-415, tension 2.5 kg/string.

Quick & oversimplified extended peg box lute definitions (works great 
for 'splainin'  it all to non-lute folk):
Theorbo- bass lute on a stick
Archlute- Tenor lute on a stick
Liuto Attiorbato- Alto lute on a short stick.

I'm surprised no one knows the true historical reasons for the long 
neck on arch lutes-

To keep that 2nd pegbox completely out of reach of the operator. Lord 
knows he's doing enough damage already.



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[LUTE] Re: very low pitch

[Daniel Winheld]

Nice coincidence here. Back on the list in "active" mode (despite the 
emailbox cholesterol clogging effect) because of archlute stringing 
issues. What's not a problem is going to low tension, because G 
nominal pitch with A=415 works beautifully on a 64cm. scale. I have 
used Toyohiko Satoh's most recent lute tension level as a rough guide 
(mostly 2.2 - 2.4 average) mine is 2.5 for the 8 courses on the 
fingerboard, except 1st and 2nd- 3.5 and 3.0. Works great for me; I 
can actually play historic thumb-out half way between the rose and 
the bridge and there's plenty of "give" to the touch and the sound is 
clear- not muddy as it would be thumb under directly over the rose, 
but also not harsh and brittle as forcing the touch at that spot with 
too high a tension. The whole instrument "breathes" and sounds 
better, more relaxed. No loss of volume, to my ears at least.

Dan
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[LUTE] Re: airs with lute in d minor tuning

[Daniel Winheld]

That is weird- maybe. There was a period of transition; it wasn't 
like everyone went to bed one night, woke the next morning to find 
all the lutes re-strung & retuned to d-minor but with all other 
musical/social customs, mores, conventions unchanged. Off the top of 
my head I can't recall how many different transitional tunings were 
used and how long it took for the d-minor, which at first (I think) 
was just one of the bunch, to become dominant. I believe Thomas Mace 
ca. 1676 was still mostly using the Flat French and related tunings; 
I think he was aware of the d-minor as a new tuning. Then there were 
little distractions such as the 30 Years War taking folk's minds and 
activity choices away from such cultural diversions as music making, 
composing, and especially publishing; and sending them in other 
directions. How much of this impacted the French musicians I don't 
know.

It would be interesting to know more; any historians/musicologists 
care to connect the dots & fill in the blanks definitively for us? 
-Dan


>I should have been more clear that I was interested more to know why 
>publication of lute songs in France
>suddenly cease when the d minor tuning emerges.
>
>It's curious don't you think?  All those volumes by Ballard and then 
>nothing, in spite of the fact that there is some publishing of lute 
>tablature in the 'accord nouveau'
>
>Damian

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[LUTE] Re: string organization

[Daniel Winheld]

>How long is a piece of string?
  HOW LONG IS THAT PIECE OF FRET GUT YOU JUST CLIPPED OFF AND HAS 
FALLEN INTO THE CARPET?
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[LUTE] Re: string organization

[Daniel Winheld]

>How do people here organize their new and used strings?

Did you say "organize"? HAHAHA! I have two main boxes, one going back 
to the late 1970's- one has ancient 1st generation mostly used 
Pyramids, La Bellas, nylon mono of all brands & gauges, and another 
box (originally for a holiday gift of peanut brittle) cheerfully 
referred to as the "Gutpile" which is totally crammed with you know 
what. Peruffo, Larson, Wills, Pirastro, old surgical, and some 
octaves that Jacob Herringman left here in 1999 all living together. 
Some old bags with mixed guitar steel-strings & bass viola da gamba 
strings, a bag of just Nylgut, KF, & KFG. A catalogue of shame. At 
least the Archery bow strings have their own separate bags.  These 
are all on a top shelf of the downstairs coat closet.-Dan

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[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge

[Daniel Winheld]

And if I might add further to the Collective Confusion we have the 
words of Ernst Gottlieb Baron:

"As to the question of where to strike the strings of the lute so 
that the tone will be powerful enough, it will serve to know that 
this must be in the center of the space between the rose and the 
bridge, for there the contact will have the greatest effect. The 
further toward the fingerboard the strings are struck with the right 
hand, the softer and weaker will be the tone- it will lose power, so 
to speak. However the player can certainly also move back and forth, 
once he has the necessary skill, when he wishes to change [the tone] 
and express something. Those in the beginning stages will not be able 
to do this, for such variation demands considerable assurance."

"Study of the Lute" 1727, English translation by Douglas Alton Smith, 
1976, Instrumenta Antiqua Publications.

Interestingly, the frontispiece illustration of Baron shows him with 
his little finger down in a location that must be on or next to (but 
to the inside of) the bridge, which is obscured by his big sloppy 
stylish shirt cuff- but the span of his hand puts his thumb and index 
finger about where he says they should be- "...in the center of the 
space between the rose and the bridge..."

Dan








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[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge

[Daniel Winheld]

Two other possibilities; either the player- whatever the total number 
of digits on his right hand- did not rest his little finger at all 
(anomalous but perfectly possible) or he/she maintained uncommonly 
clean hands and only lightly touched down intermittently with the 
little finger. Even with thumb under, that's how I've been playing 
for over 30 years with little or no visible evidence left on the face 
of the lutes. I personally know at least one professional player who 
also plays this way. Perhaps not the most likely case, but perfectly 
possible.Dan


>I actually managed to get to the museum this afternoon. I could not see
>anything approaching a finger mark anywhere between rose and bridge, or even
>behind the bridge. Which could lead us to two conclusions - either the
>instrument wasn't played much, or the little finger rested on the bridge. As
>the bridge is not original, who can say. The curator could find nothing
>either. I do not think the marks around the rose are from playing the
>instrument.
>
>Any little-fingerless players known from the 17th century?
>
>Rob
>
>www.rmguitar.info

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[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge

[Daniel Winheld]

Ah yes- illusory VERBAL descriptions. "Grasshopper, point finger at 
moon- but keep eye on ball..."
No apologies needed- we still sell plastic records at Amoeba Music. I 
may even have one of Schaeffer playing Bittner stashed away somewhere 
if I'm not mistaken.  Dan


>The contradiction is in the illusory verbal description of "in out"
>"under over" &c. The iconographic and plastic records (had to use the
>word plastic, sorry) show that it is not a two dimensional issue.
>It's like a finger pointing at the moon
>
>dt

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[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge

[Daniel Winheld]

Hello Rob- I think it sounds great. In fact, the first recording- 
even though you were obviously less technically comfortable, seems a 
touch clearer. I play my Baroque lutes and (when I owned one) my 10 
course thumb out exclusively, but not as far down to the bridge. That 
may change with the next attempt at all gut stringing, from which I 
have gone back and forth over the decades that I have owned my 13 
course lute. Dan
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[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge

[Daniel Winheld]

The apparent limitations of two-dimensional media were neatly 
finessed back in the 14th century by artists who made an interesting 
little discovery that we like to call "perspective"; by means of 
carefully chosen amounts & placement of light and shade, 
foreshortening, selective focus, etc. they reached levels that of 
visual deception- trompe l'oeil- that in extreme examples caused 
viewers to walk into walls, attempt to climb non-existent stairs, 
perceive limitless vistas on ceilings, and other novel effects.

The famous portrait of Charles Mouton is one of the best examples of 
this monumental triumph of Western art. The degree of bend in his 
wrist is quite obvious, and to a player of any experience quite 
reproducible to within a few degrees. I use that picture, among 
others, for teaching purposes in regard to the correctly noted 
infinite variety of hand positions- (as well as the infinite degrees 
of arm & wrist bend, lute body placement). Yes, we really are free to 
play; and the contradictory two-dimensional record is still a great 
help.

However, strictly thumb-to-finger relations actually do break down to 
a binary situation. Close the hand and that thumb is either in or 
out- and as long as our species has opposable thumbs that's how it's 
going to be.

Dan


>The inherent contradiction in the use of a two dimensional
>description for a three dimensional action is amply supported by
>contemporaneous iconography.
>
>What iconography shows is a wide variety of hand positions; to
>consider that these break into two parts is
>like the old joke, there are two kinds of people in the world: Those
>who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't.
>Once the two part illusion is gone, we are free to play.
>
>dt
>

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[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge

[Daniel Winheld]

OK Ed- lead the way for us here! Can you get the string specs- 
diameters, amount of twist, tension, pitch to string length- the 
works- from Toyohiko Satoh? It would be really cool if my poor old 
Baroque lute- a Bob Lundberg original that has been so abused for 
almost 30 years- could live its last days in a state of blessedly 
relaxed string tension. I've already been playing it thumb out, way 
out, although not Classical Guitar out (a class B Felony in the State 
of California) all these past decades, but not as near the bridge as 
our old friend the photogenic Monsieur Mouton, let alone where the 
pinkie could be placed on or behind the bridge.Dan
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[LUTE] Slightly OT But Happy New Year anyway

[Daniel Winheld]

No lutes; but not as OT 
as metal contraptions, two headed lutenists, and a host of other 
wondrous things that have pulled our Collective Attention- ADD style- 
from our chosen obsession. And it does involve recorded sights and 
sounds; and is from an Earlier Period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLqo77gQrxg

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[LUTE] Re: metal contraption/RH on the bridge?

[Daniel Winheld]

>  > and an engraving by Jan Lievens of a two-headed
>>  lute player; and this certainly is an official portrait of Jacques
>>  Gaultier.
>
>More likely Zaphod Beeblebrox.

TOUCHE
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[LUTE] Re: Funny string story

[Daniel Winheld]

"Did you hear the one where the string walks into a bar?"

Of course. The one about the old ragged piece of fret gut. He's 
turned into quite the alcoholic since leaving the music business. 
Staggers into the bar and demands a double shot of rye and a beer- 
bartender shakes his head and says, "Frayed knot".


>Oh, no.  Is it repeatable?
>
>ed
>
>
>
>At 02:16 AM 12/31/2007 +0900, Ed Durbrow wrote:
>>That is hilarious.
>  >
>>
>>On Dec 16, 2007, at 8:17 AM, Edward Martin wrote:
>>
>>>I thought I would share a laugh with everyone.  I sent a special
>>>kind of a
>>>lute string to a friend overseas today.  When bringing it to the post
>>>office, I was quite surprised.
>>>
>>>The person at the postal window had a difficult time finding the
>>>proper
>>>code, so I sincerely hope it gets there.  I clearly marked on the
>>>customs
>>>note that it is a "musical string".  She looked inside the envelope
>>>at it
>>>in its package, and asked where the string was.  I thought she
>>>could not
>>>see it, so I showed her again, the string.  She then asked, "How
>>>does it
>>>make music?  How do you turn it on?"  It is a hilarious that some
>>>are so
>>>accustomed to electronic gadgetry, that they do not understand what a
>>>musical string is.
>>>
>>ed

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[LUTE] Re: Where is Santa Claus?

[Daniel Winheld]

Five of his elves were a "sleeper cell"; they loaded two dozen of 
those nasty Pakistani lutes into the sleigh, and they were all strung 
up with PORK GUT STRINGS! Fortunately, an alert Turkish airport Oud 
inspector caught them.  Happy New Year in These Distract'd Times 
-Dan


>I'm afraid he was in Benazir's car when.
>RT
>
>
>
>Where is Santa Claus? The Father Christmas?
>
>I have not seen him this year. Where could he be?  Well, anyhow, he has a
>long beard. Perhaps he then is in Guantanamo!
>
>Better New Year!
>
>Arto
>
>
>
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-- 
Rachel Winheld
820 Colusa Avenue
Berkeley, CA 94707

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel 510.526.0242 
Cell 510.915.4276

[LUTE] Re: Sad News(was Breaking point of gut)

[Daniel Winheld]

Sad music- "Tombeau sur la mort de ma chanterelle d'mon coeur, arrive 
le 26 de Decembre, 2007"  -to be played only on the lower 10 courses 
of a French Baroque lute. In e-flat minor, of course.


>I just opened my lute case to discover that my top string, which had 
>lasted 31 days, had broken. Since I wrote the List about it last 
>night and it broke today, I'm thinking there must be a causal 
>connection between the two events. Unfortunately, I don't have 
>anymore 42's on hand and shall have to put on a 44 until I can get 
>some.
>
>Stephen Arndt

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[LUTE] Re: Breaking point of gut

[Daniel Winheld]

Very interesting thread. Leads me to believe that 
variable batches of gut may be causing more 
disagreement/varying experiences than other 
factors, especially once the nut business is 
addressed. My Renaissance 7-course, at 62 cm, 
should be a no-brainer (no gut-strainer?) for a 
"g", w/"a" at 415. After breaking four guts 
(three .44, one .42) I think it must be because 
they came from the same batch. After smoothing 
and polishing the nut didn't work, I laid down 
from one three layers of cellophane tape 
overlapping the nut groove- it doesn't get 
slicker or smoother than that- strings were still 
breaking. Back to nylon. Any consensus at this 
time as to whether any of our gut sources make 
the most reliably tough first courses? I would 
love to get this lute all in gut.


Thanks,  Dan



Anthony,

I had a Savarez KF on it originally and then a 
Nylgut and don't know enough to speculate as to 
whether they roughen the edges of the groove or 
not. I only know that I broke several gut 
strings in a row when I first tried gut and 
never had one make it an entire week before I 
sanded the groove. And, yes, I do use graphite 
in the groove as well. Perhaps the longevity is 
just a quirk of this particular string and will 
not repeat itself with other strings when this 
one finally breaks. It is too early to tell. One 
string supplier did tell me, however, that he 
has heard of strings breaking at the nut on 
other lutes by my builder. Had I known that 
information, I would have sanded out the grooves 
the day I received the lute. You might want to 
do the same.


By the way, if gut doesn't work on your first 
course, I have to say that on this particular 
instrument Nylgut is virtually indistinguishable 
from gut (though such was not the case on my 
10-course by a different builder). If the first 
string is too bright, I cut a sliver of masking 
tape as thin as I can (about the width of the 
string itself) and fold it over the string a 
centimeter or two in front of the bridge, and it 
seems to reduce the brightness.


I have this instrument strung all in gut now 
except for the basses and am waiting for gut 
basses to ship in the first week of the new 
year. In the meantime, I have used the same 
masking tape trick on the wound basses, though I 
use a piece about a quarter of an inch wide, and 
I think it helps there too, reducing the 
brightness and the sustain.


Good luck with your new lute. I hope it is everything you wish for.

Stephen


- Original Message - From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stephen Arndt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:05 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Breaking point of gut


Stephen
That is remarkable with a 70 cm string length and at 415Hz. I
thought it would need to be at 392Hz, and then only to last about a
week.
Do you think the sy-trings gradually roughen the edges of the groove,
or was there a problem from the beginning? Do you use graphite to
help allow the string to slip?
Thanks for the information, it makes me more optimistic for my future
lute.
Regards
Anthony

Le 26 déc. 07 à 18:38, Stephen Arndt a écrit :


Anthony,

Although I probably should have used a finer 
grade, I just used the finest grade I happened 
to have on hand, which was 600. I'm not  sure 
how to answer the question about how much I 
sanded since I  didn't count the strokes, but 
they were probably no more than  twenty-five. I 
simply folded a small piece of sandpaper in 
half,  put the crease in the groove, and then 
moved it repeatedly in the  direction of the 
pegs.


The string was a normal Aquila high twist 
string, nothing special.  Maybe I just got 
lucky, but I shall be interested to see how 
many  more days it lasts and whether the next 
string lasts just as long.  I forgot to mention 
that the string was a 42.


Stephen

- Original Message - From: "Anthony Hind"  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stephen Arndt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;  
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:15 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Breaking point of gut


Stephen
Very interesting information, but could you give more detail. What
grade did you use? How much did you sand?
Were these the special Aquilla strings that are supposed to be as
strong as nylon? I don't know whether these are back on sale again  yet.

Regards
Anthony
Le 26 déc. 07 à 09:02, Stephen Arndt a écrit :


I thought it might interest the list to know that I have just   completed a
month (31 days) with an Aquila gut string on the first course of a baroque
lute tuned at 415 with a 70 cm. vibrating length. The tone is  still quite
good, and the string is showing no signs of 
fraying. Before I   sanded out the

groove in the nut, gut strings lasted anywhere from a few seconds   to a few
days on the that course.

Stephen Arndt

- Original Message - From: "Richard 
Corran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Lute Net" 
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:33 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Breaking point of gut

While I am not trying to set the 

[LUTE] Re: Piccinini Questions

[Daniel Winheld]

And speaking from experience- I have an ancient Bob Lundberg original 
13 course bass rider Baroque lute. Wanting to play Piccinini 
specifically and explore the archlute/Italian Baroque lute generally, 
I re-strung & tuned the Lundberg. Very, very clumsy and ineffective 
for that repertoire. Struggled with it for a number of years, not 
having the resources to secure a proper arch thing; and this was 
about 15 - 20 years ago, and I didn't know quite what to get anyway. 
I still have the Lundberg- back in it's proper disposition, and play 
only d-minor lute music. I leave Bach alone, for now, on any 
instrument- and take my hat off to those who play the lute suites 
well on any fretted thing- from d-minor lute to theorbo.


>That's because Bach didn't have the same hands-on exactness for
>idiosyncratic playability that Piccinini & Weiss had with lutes. He
>hit an approximate range, texture, and either figured a real lute
>player could work it out, or he really composed (at least some of it)
>for his Lautenwork (sp?) and anyway he recycled so much of his music
>around from one format to another that the idea of specificity is
>moot. Hell, just yell "SUIT NO. SIX" into the 'cellist's bar during
>happy hour and watch the fur fly.
>
>>After so much concern given to matching the exact instrument and
>>configuration favored by a composer (namely Piccinini), I'm a little
>>surprised by the recommendation of any lute-like thingy, especially an
>>archlute, for playing Bach.
>>
>>Best,
>  >Eugene


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[LUTE] Re: Piccinini Questions

[Daniel Winheld]

That's because Bach didn't have the same hands-on exactness for 
idiosyncratic playability that Piccinini & Weiss had with lutes. He 
hit an approximate range, texture, and either figured a real lute 
player could work it out, or he really composed (at least some of it) 
for his Lautenwork (sp?) and anyway he recycled so much of his music 
around from one format to another that the idea of specificity is 
moot. Hell, just yell "SUIT NO. SIX" into the 'cellist's bar during 
happy hour and watch the fur fly.

>After so much concern given to matching the exact instrument and
>configuration favored by a composer (namely Piccinini), I'm a little
>surprised by the recommendation of any lute-like thingy, especially an
>archlute, for playing Bach.
>
>Best,
>Eugene

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[LUTE] More Re: Rx for slipping peg?

[Daniel Winheld]

More thoughts on this peg business, involving the nature of wood and 
how we use, abuse, and finesse it. Wood, as an organic living 
substance is not completely uniform in all dimensions- it has grain, 
cell structure, and (in temperate & northern climates) growth rings. 
A peg that was round at the time of its manufacture may become less 
than round over many seasons of changing humidity & temperature 
(which of course affects the effects of humidity). Therefore, the 
treatment advocated by dt & my viol repairman will actually re-round 
a peg that may have gone out a little. One thing the repair guy did 
(that I now don't see in David's post-  I must have read it in)- was 
aggressively turning the pegs a lot after cleaning & re-seating them 
in the holes. For this to work, I would assume that the pegs must 
have been round to begin with, and that they not be made of a wood 
that is harder than the wood of the pegbox. The pegs on my bass viol 
did indeed feel oval- not quite round- and I assumed I was coming to 
the violin shop to get a new set of pegs, but now they do in fact 
feel round- for now, anyway. Wood cells are resilient critters, and 
are malleable. Unbacked wooden longbows can be protected from 
exploding at full draw by burnishing the backs with a hard object 
like a bottle or hard metal burnishing tool as the last step in the 
building process; the wood cells become compacted and resist forces 
that would tend to rupture them- similarly the cells in the pegs are 
undergoing the same forces of correction & protection, and excess 
goop only masks and prolongs the problem.

David, can you tell us what woods have the right amount of oilyness? 
Like enlightenment, the oil must come from within, and I would expect 
many tropical hardwoods can work- rosewood, cocobolo, etc. Most 
builders know what they're doing, so maybe a list of woods NOT to 
make pegs out of may be more useful. I must confess that the idea of 
pig frapping gives me a nasty turn. Merry Christmas anyway. - Dan

>Yep, Santa has sometimes slipped a square peg or two in my stocking.
>No amount of hole reaming will help out a square peg. It's true that
>excess goop will indeed make some problem peg/hole relationships
>worse, and direct interventional therapy of the sort dt advises is
>the best way to go. A pro at a local violin store did exactly that
>with my bass viol-
>"I take the pegs half out, sand off the stuff, put them back. If the
>pegs really fit well, voila."
>- in my case, of course, "Voila da gamba!" Afterwards, though, he did
>put on a trace amount of Hill's brown voodoo paste, and indeed the
>tube says it should be used very sparingly. Too tight a peg can be
>dangerous, too- I once shredded a peg on my Baroque lute- a small,
>delicate one on the bass rider.
>
>Dan
>
>
>>I have a slightly different way...
>>
>>My feeling is:
>>1.No Chalk
>>2. No goop
>>
>>I have my pegs made from naturally oily wood. So they don't need
>>anything. The oil comes from within.
>>When I get a lute. and it has peg junk on it, goop, chalk, whatever,
>>I take the pegs half out, sand off the stuff, put them back.
>>If the pegs really fit well, voila. However, the wood should not be
>>bone dry, don't sand below the finish, and no need to take it all
>>off, a small trace
>>will help with the seating on a new instrument.
>>
>>I have two observations, which may be useful, maybe not.
>>1. The goop makes the strings go slowly --glacially--out of tune. I
>>don't like to tune more than once a week.
>>2. The climate here in California is mild. Could be in other climates
>>you need goop. Lots of goop even.
>>
>>I really haven't had a problem with the pegs in 30 years unless there
>>is too much goop.. But they are a bit harder to turn (so they don't
>>slip and go out of tune an itsy bitsy bit at a time),
>>so I use a pig turner. Opps, peg turner.
>>
>>Since no one else seems to do it this way, proceed with caution.
>>Mace gives the word for pegs slipping as "frapping", so I would
>>assume this is a fairly old problem
>  >
>>If the peg does not match the hole precisely, they will never work
>>right--a reamer will usually do the trick, but only the maker should
>>adjust it.
>>Sadly, some lutes come straight from Santa's sleigh with ill-fitting pegs.
>>
>  >dt


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[LUTE] Re: Rx for slipping peg?

[Daniel Winheld]

Yep, Santa has sometimes slipped a square peg or two in my stocking. 
No amount of hole reaming will help out a square peg. It's true that 
excess goop will indeed make some problem peg/hole relationships 
worse, and direct interventional therapy of the sort dt advises is 
the best way to go. A pro at a local violin store did exactly that 
with my bass viol-
"I take the pegs half out, sand off the stuff, put them back. If the 
pegs really fit well, voila."
- in my case, of course, "Voila da gamba!" Afterwards, though, he did 
put on a trace amount of Hill's brown voodoo paste, and indeed the 
tube says it should be used very sparingly. Too tight a peg can be 
dangerous, too- I once shredded a peg on my Baroque lute- a small, 
delicate one on the bass rider.

Dan


>I have a slightly different way...
>
>My feeling is:
>1.No Chalk
>2. No goop
>
>I have my pegs made from naturally oily wood. So they don't need
>anything. The oil comes from within.
>When I get a lute. and it has peg junk on it, goop, chalk, whatever,
>I take the pegs half out, sand off the stuff, put them back.
>If the pegs really fit well, voila. However, the wood should not be
>bone dry, don't sand below the finish, and no need to take it all
>off, a small trace
>will help with the seating on a new instrument.
>
>I have two observations, which may be useful, maybe not.
>1. The goop makes the strings go slowly --glacially--out of tune. I
>don't like to tune more than once a week.
>2. The climate here in California is mild. Could be in other climates
>you need goop. Lots of goop even.
>
>I really haven't had a problem with the pegs in 30 years unless there
>is too much goop.. But they are a bit harder to turn (so they don't
>slip and go out of tune an itsy bitsy bit at a time),
>so I use a pig turner. Opps, peg turner.
>
>Since no one else seems to do it this way, proceed with caution.
>Mace gives the word for pegs slipping as "frapping", so I would
>assume this is a fairly old problem
>
>If the peg does not match the hole precisely, they will never work
>right--a reamer will usually do the trick, but only the maker should 
>adjust it.
>Sadly, some lutes come straight from Santa's sleigh with ill-fitting pegs.
>
>dt
>

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[LUTE] Re: Piccinini Questions

[Daniel Winheld]

Priceless; archlute advice for the ages- from one who has paid his dues.
"More holes; less poles!

-But I still will not touch Sting's CD with a ten foot theorbo (yes 
I've heard it). The late Lorraine Hunt is another matter entirely.
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[LUTE] Re: Piccinini Questions

[Daniel Winheld]

I got mine from S.P.E.S. (Studio Per Edizione Scelte) Firenze. It's a 
great facsimile, but I got it many years ago so don't know current 
availability. Never having owned any long necked arch thing I don't 
remember off hand if the Chitarrone/theorbo requires just first or 
first & second down the octave. That's what is important to know, not 
what you call it. The lute/archlute/liuto attiorbato or just plain 
liuto (as it ended up being designated) is basically a lute in viel 
ton with only 13 courses, the 13 being a designated "accidentals" 
course, nominally in E-flat, the 8th being E natural. However, 
Toccata XXI requires that the 13th course be a low octave "G".

A lot of it is pretty fierce stuff, but it all depends on what your 
idea/level of "amateur" is. I say go for it. It's much too good not 
to be explored, and and as you rightfully note, his music should be 
much better known. Good luck with it!

Dan

>Greetings,
>
>I've been listening to Nigel North's album of Piccinini, and I have a few
>questions:
>
>(First, a comment): Piccinini needs to be much better known. His music is
>remarkable.
>
>1. There's a facsimile available on the django website, but is there an
>edition?
>2. Piccinini's work appears to be for lute and chitarrone. I assume that's
>the same thing as saying for archlute and theorbo?
>3. Is it all virtuoso work, or can a dedicated amateur, armed with his
>archlute, attempt it? (I need to know before contemplating the purchase of
>an archlute!)
>
>Regards,
>
>Jim Abraham

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[LUTE] Re: Italian lute tab

[Daniel Winheld]

Oops- I meant, i is the 17th semitone.


>Hi Elly- just had a look at this; it's a g-flat (11th fret on a "g"
>lute) Molinaro used a "u" for 11, X for 10, and 13 with a curved line
>underneath linking the 1 and 3 to make it very clear that he does,
>indeed, want an a-flat at the 13th semitone (13 fret if you're
>lucky). Last note in that measure is also g-flat, "4" on the 2nd
>course. Context usually makes things obvious, but chromatic fantasias
>can give one pause. That 8-9-13th fret grab is tough stretch. Various
>designations were used for semitones above the 9th fret in Italian
>tab, usually X for 10, XI for 11, XII for 12, etc. but other systems
>occur. My favorite is the Toccata Prima from Piccinini's 2nd book,
>put out by his son Leonardo Maria in 1639. Check out the first
>measure of the bottom line. He goes right up to the 19th semitone
>(last fret on most normal classical guitars) using lower case
>letters, "d" for 12, f-14, h-16, i-18, and l-19.
>
>Best holiday wishes to you too,  Dan
>
>>Dear All,
>>
>>I'm working on a transcription/realisation for keyboard of Simone
>>Molinaro's famous /Fantasia XII/ (the chromatic piece). I've just come
>>across what appears to be a 'u' on the highest sounding string ... I
>>can't seem to find anything to suggest what it might mean ... can
>>anyone help me please ?
>>
>> Best wishes for the holiday season,
>>
>> Elly
>
>--
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
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Cell 510.915.4276

[LUTE] Re: Italian lute tab

[Daniel Winheld]

Hi Elly- just had a look at this; it's a g-flat (11th fret on a "g" 
lute) Molinaro used a "u" for 11, X for 10, and 13 with a curved line 
underneath linking the 1 and 3 to make it very clear that he does, 
indeed, want an a-flat at the 13th semitone (13 fret if you're 
lucky). Last note in that measure is also g-flat, "4" on the 2nd 
course. Context usually makes things obvious, but chromatic fantasias 
can give one pause. That 8-9-13th fret grab is tough stretch. Various 
designations were used for semitones above the 9th fret in Italian 
tab, usually X for 10, XI for 11, XII for 12, etc. but other systems 
occur. My favorite is the Toccata Prima from Piccinini's 2nd book, 
put out by his son Leonardo Maria in 1639. Check out the first 
measure of the bottom line. He goes right up to the 19th semitone 
(last fret on most normal classical guitars) using lower case 
letters, "d" for 12, f-14, h-16, i-18, and l-19.

Best holiday wishes to you too,  Dan

>Dear All,
>
>I'm working on a transcription/realisation for keyboard of Simone 
>Molinaro's famous /Fantasia XII/ (the chromatic piece). I've just come 
>across what appears to be a 'u' on the highest sounding string ... I 
>can't seem to find anything to suggest what it might mean ... can 
>anyone help me please ?
>
>Best wishes for the holiday season,
>
>Elly

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[LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen!

[Daniel Winheld]

"Singers are the best, because normally they don't know anything of 
the rhythm and pulse; you normally will be the boss with the 
singers..."

My experience has been that when playing with someone who has the 
lead role and has to breathe, you are most definitely NOT the boss- 
merely an at-will employee who can and will be terminated any time. 
Even with the Soprano I Live With, and +30 years-old marriage 
contract. The rhythm and pulse thing is sometimes a defense, however.



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[LUTE] Re: tuner

[Daniel Winheld]

As an infidel & heretic myself with a tin ear I salute and welcome 
you and thanks very much for a heads up on this tuner. Between my 
Baroque lute of a mere 24 strings and my wife's harpsichord any good 
tuner will not be bored or underemployed here.  Before the batteries 
wear out on the Violab we now have I will be checking out this one. 
-Dan

>As a newcomer to this list I don't know if it is heretical to 
>mention electronic tuners, or if they're even needed on instruments 
>with so few strings.  However, in the off chance that someone may 
>find it helpful, here is something that I posted to the harplist 
>about a new tuner.  With up to 47 strings to keep tuned these things 
>are nearly a necessity for a harpist:

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[LUTE] Re: Wikiality

[Daniel Winheld]

>Without a neck?
>
>He couldn't be a violinist either, - he'd never get it under his chin!
>
Where do you think treble viol players come from? Wickedpedia- a 
never ending resource!


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[LUTE] Re: Wikiality

[Daniel Winheld]

>
>Andrew,
>It is hard to read between the tears.
>ray

Read further:

Lutenist: The lutenist is simply an instrument plucker without a 
neck. He considers himself a much more dignified plucker than the 
guitarist, although he is similar in construction to the guitarist 
with the exclusion of his neck. He plays in stringular singularity 
instead of strumpetting.


>On Dec 18, 2007 11:21 AM, Andrew Gibbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>>  A helpful description of the lute found on the Wikipedia Renaissance
>>  music page:
>>
>>  Lute: The lute is simply any plucked instrument without a neck. In
>>  the medieval ages it had 4 or 5 Strings and was considered a much
>>  more dignified instrument that the guitar. It is similar in its
>>  construction to that of the guitar with the exclusion of its neck,
>>  and how it is played, as it is played in string singularity instead
>>  of strummed.
>>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_music
>>
>>  I'm inclined to leave it as a nice bit of misinformation.
>>
>>  Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  To get on or off this list see list information at
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>>


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[LUTE] Re: Personal Awesomeness Index

[Daniel Winheld]

The Parnassus of Awesomeness- going beyond the merely personal- would 
then have to be Thomas Mace's "Lute Diphone" - a 12 course 
double-head head lute mated to an English Theorbo; an idea that he 
put into "Musicke's Monument" to help with his growing deafness.
Happy Christmas to you too.  Dan

>I think it should be the other way round the Lute should be plus 125,
>everything else minus. ...N.
>
>Consider also that a 10-course lute has more strings than a double-neck
>guitar.
>
>Happy Christmas
>Ron (UK)
>
>But only one!
>G.

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[LUTE] Re: Funny string story

[Daniel Winheld]

Is it a Baroque or a Renaissance string?
  Is it a thumb under or a thumb out string?
Does it warble?
Does it sing?
We need no lute,
It's the whole damn thing!

>The person at the postal window had a difficult time finding the proper
>code, so I sincerely hope it gets there.  I clearly marked on the customs
>note that it is a "musical string".  She looked inside the envelope at it
>in its package, and asked where the string was.  I thought she could not
>see it, so I showed her again, the string.  She then asked, "How does it
>make music?  How do you turn it on?"  It is a hilarious that some are so
>accustomed to electronic gadgetry, that they do not understand what a
>musical string is.
>
>ed
>
>
>
>
>
>

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[LUTE] Re: standing position for playing

[Daniel Winheld]

Sorry Martin, I can only recall that I did read it in a friend's copy 
many years ago. Although I don't have an eidetic memory (I have the 
other kind) it did strike me very strongly. I hope someone else on 
the list can jump in, verify my recollection and pin down the quote.

The most spectacular non-seated performance by a real musician on a 
plucked, fretted instrument was a performance I once witnessed at the 
old Yoshi's restaurant & Jazz club in Oakland, CA. An elderly blues 
virtuoso (forget his name- idiotic memory working as normal)
had a wireless solid body electric. After some normal hopping around, 
he exited the front door of the club, walked around the parking lot, 
came in through the back door from the kitchen, still playing in 
synch with the rest of the band, and proceeded to do front and back 
rolls- somersaults- guitar in hands and playing all the while. 
Breathtakingly agile, coordinated, and musical too; reminded me of 
martial arts training (much younger) where we did front rolls holding 
wooden staffs and feeling good if we could roll and come up staff in 
hand without dropping it or impaling ourselves.

Didn't some of the French players run a string from a peg at the base 
of the lute to the peg near the neck/body joint where one might also 
anchor the 10th fret, if tied, to hook onto a coat button for 
standing play?


>Dear Dan,
>
>Can you give us a page reference?  I don't remember this bit.
>
>But it really strikes a chord with me - if I play the (6c) lute 
>standing, and improvising, I find myself wandering round the room! 
>I wonder why?
>
>Mark Wheeler does some nifty sprinting from one side of the stage to 
>the other, but I guess he's just trying to present a moving target 
>(sorry Mark, couldn't resist...).
>>
>>Thomas Mace, Musicke's Monument. He extolls the wonderful 
>>advantages of playing not just while standing, but walking around. 
>>Says it frees the mind for improvising. And why limit lute playing 
>>to just standing, walking, or even running? I hope Roman doesn't 
>>mind my posting this from his website:

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[LUTE] Re: standing position for playing

[Daniel Winheld]

Sorry- try this:

http://polyhymnion.org/torban/torban3b.html
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[LUTE] Re: baroque lute pitch

[Daniel Winheld]

>If you take g' at a'=440 as a reasonable pitch for a 60cm string 
>length - and I find a good gut string is fine at that pitch - then 
>the equivalent for f' is about 67cm and for e' about 71cm.  So I 
>have no problem tuning a baroque lute to f' at a'=415, as long as 
>the string length is less than about 71cm.  In fact the lute I have 
>just finished for Rob MacKillop is only 69cm, so a bit more into the 
>comfort zone.

That accords exactly with my experience. I had a very fine bass lute 
for solo playing by Barber/Harris-  at 72 cm SL, the 1st course "e" 
with [EMAIL PROTECTED] was also the best pitch for instrument response, 
regardless of string material.

Dan
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[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings

[Daniel Winheld]

Go for a lesson with Nigel North. The first thing that happened when 
he didn't like my sound was to grab my right hand, check the finger 
tips, and start sanding! He comes equipped, no doubt expecting more 
of us to be blue collar lutenists than blue blood. Thank God he 
doesn't travel with a power sander. I haven't had nails since about 
1970, but despite my best efforts a few days fo work have occurred, 
perhaps by mistake.
Dan

>Calluses? Sandpaper? Mimic nails? Is that a common experience? I must say,
>Gary, that I've been playing without nails for almost 20 years, and my
>finger tips are very soft and smooth. Sandpaper?! Must be my blue blood -
>never done a day's work in my life.
>
>HRH Rob
>
>
>I play guitar (modern and baroque) without nails. It's true that some
>techniques such as tremolo become much more diffcult without nails, but my
>tremolo was never my strong suit anyway. I just got tired of constantly
>messing with nails, trying to get them shaped right, etc. Since I started
>playing lute, I kissed the nails goodbye. So far I've not regretted it. The
>fingers develop calluses, which have to be sandpapered (#600 wet and dry)
>smooth, but mimic the attack of nails on the guitar.
>
>Gary
>

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[LUTE] Re: Old lutes...

[Daniel Winheld]

Some historic builders had their own problems- if 
I remember my secondary sources correctly, the 
Thirty Years War wiped out the lute building 
center of Füssen and all lute building traditions 
associated with it; consequently some of the 
German 18th century lute building standards were 
just not up to par ("inauthentically" 
weighted/shaped) for some time, hence E.G. Baron 
preferring certain foreign made instruments. 
Perhaps a less foggy mind could weigh in and help 
me out here.   Dan



Good point, and it would depend on the period of course.
Anthony


Or could it be that the old makers themselves each had
a spot on the heavy/light continuum depending on
region, taste, musical style, etc.?  I would suspect
there would be a lot of variation in minor details of
lute construction the non-standardized past.
Chris


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[LUTE] LUTE Swanneck & Weiss?

[Daniel Winheld]

One thing I haven't seen anyone address re the swanneck- fingered 
accidentals on courses 9 - 11. How are you folks dealing with these 
situations? Up an octave, or eliminate those pieces from your 
repertoire?  Dan
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[LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan

[Daniel Winheld]

Absolute, bottom line for me- in Weiss's music the 9th-E/Eflat course 
is just fingered too damn many times to be put on an extension. The 
10th and even the 11th also get their share of accidentals- there is 
at least one fugue that for me loses it all at a very important spot 
if the fingered 11th-C# is taken up to the higher octave. That said, 
I would still love to spend some quality time getting to know such an 
instrument; to hear for myself what the sound balance and quality 
would be like.  Indoor swinging is of course an issue but after 
shooting my 72" longbow indoors (target bag in the coat closet) all 
these years I'm better prepared for it now than I was 30 odd years 
ago when I took out a ceiling fixture with a theorbo at some lute 
function or other.

For transport, I know one player who routinely used get his triple 
peg box Jauch (sp?) thing into the overhead where a bent back pegbox 
wouldn't have made it. That was before 9-11, however.
-Dan
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[LUTE] Re: In A Garden So Green

[Daniel Winheld]

Very nice, indeed. You've still got it. My front lawn should be half as green.
Piazzola has its place; but not on the theorbo. Paper plates work 
just fine. I like mine with anchovy and eggplant.

The def is still higher than my perceptual ability at this hour of the morning


>In a Garden So Green on You tube

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[LUTE] Re: Specialization (was: 8-course?)

[Daniel Winheld]

In this somewhat nihilistically arcane vein I recall Dmitri 
Shostakovich's instructions on playing his 15th string quartet: "I 
want you to play it so that flies drop dead in midair, and that by 
the end of the first movement the entire audience has gotten up and 
left the building."  -as best as I can recall, from an English 
translation.   -Dan

>This is with Bach, a recognized name with works of
>true substance.  But even a concert of all-Weiss
>masterworks would be a hard sell to all but hardcore
>lute players.  (A somewhat well-known viola da gamba
>player I know claims Weiss is "weird and
>incomprehensible."  What the...???)  These will also
>be works of great substance, but if you get folks to
>come, you'll have a lot of empty seats after
>intermission.
>
>Unfortunately, rabid is the word.  While this type of
>music has always had relatively few fans, Babbitt
>simply gave voice to the agenda of an academic cadre
>that sucessfully elevated atonal serialism into a
>position of undisputed hegemony in university
>composition programs throughout the world during the
>50's and 60's and that limped along as a real force
>well into the 1990's.  (Without contradicting myself,
>I can say that there were some great masterpieces
>composed in this style.)  It didn't matter how many
>people liked or hated the music - what mattered was
>how "RIGHT" those in positions of authority within
>academe _thought_ they were.
>
>During this time period, if you wanted to be taken
>seriously as a composer, there was almost NO OTHER WAY
>than to write music like this.  Forget about the fact
>that the only people in the audiences are a couple of
>other composition professors and students. Those
>philistines in the Outside World don't appreciate the
>Serious Importance of the Esoteric Issues we have
>agreed to address in our sonic constructs, anyway...
>and why... why, the poor unwashed fools probably
>wouldn't be able to tell the Massive Difference in
>tone between a 7-course and an 8-course lute even
>after having it repeatedly explained to them in
>painstaking detail!
>
>The future of early music isn't quite this bleak, but
>I have been disturbed to a couple of EM concerts in
>which the audience was made up almost entirely of
>musicology students...
>
>
>Chris
>
>
> 
>
>Be a better pen pal.
>Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. 
>http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
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[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?

[Daniel Winheld]

This "slow you down" aspect is one that I am finally able to address 
personally after over 35 years of lute playing. I finally got my 
first 7 course lute last year; an Andreas Holst, 62 cm. SL. All my 
previous R lutes- 57 to 72 cm- had all been 8 course. (I'm not 
counting the 10 course and Baroque lutes for this discussion). The 
"slowing down" thing is a tactile/mental manifestation rather than a 
technical feasibility thing. I could always (and frequently did) play 
anything and everything much too fast on any of my 8 courses- what I 
feel on the 7 course is an incredible ease and freedom- things flow 
very naturally; whatever the tempo. Everything in the repertoire that 
I can fit on this lute just falls under the fingers almost without 
conscious thought or effort- some pieces now go slower because 
there's less to "fight" against.  I wish I had gotten this instrument 
30 years ago. And it's not that it's a "fabulous" instrument, it's 
just very good; but everything about the neck width, thickness, and 
general proportions works in an ergonomic way that I have never 
experienced on an 8 course lute- only on my 6 course- which with the 
8ve basses is restricted to the earlier stuff.  Just my subjective 
experience here.

  We do know that Dowland at least had a one-night stand with an 8 
course; Sir John Langton's Pavan and the King of Denmark's galliard 
in the Varietie are genuine 8 course pieces.

Another issue is the 10 tied frets on a 9 course lute. (Anyone ever 
see/build one of those?) Again, read Dowland's comments in the 
"Varietie".   -Dan


>I'm not sure just how an eight course instrument is going to slow 
>you down? Is it not a matter of not playing the strings you do not 
>use or need at the time?  In theory, if not fact, it is possible to 
>play many Lute pieces on a six course instrument and never play the 
>sixth or even the fifth course for that matter and this does not 
>seem to be an issue.
>
>So if you or anyone else could explain to me how an eight course 
>instrument can slow you down I would be most appreciative.  It seems 
>to me that a six course instrument would have the same effect in its 
>limiting access to a large and significant portion  of the 
>literature.  This might not slow you down physically but musically 
>is another question.
>>
>>The only thing I would add, purely subjective, is that as a
>>performer, a question:
>>Will the 8 course slow you down in the long run?

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[LUTE] Re: New cittern painting! NOW Caravaggio

[Daniel Winheld]

David, I know- it took hours of work with a floor sander for Mel to 
get all your years of topsoil off the lute (7 course, of course!) I 
have that you once owned. It was beyond green. My turn to come with 
something that anagrams nicely on it.

>I treat mine with dirt. It turns green after a while. I don't blame it.
>Although I wouldn't want the lute stuck in my throat.
>
>dt
>

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[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?

[Daniel Winheld]

One of the first lute books I got when I was a wee grasshopper at 
this lute business (young classical guitarist, late 60's) was a 
printout of a microfilm of the English version of Adrien LeRoy's 
book. All the old pass'e mezzi and other dances, for 6 courses. 
Clearly visible in old handwriting were extra bass notes for a 9 
course lute at key spots; cadences and places where an  8ve jump 
could be smoothed out. While of course we should continue to research 
and discover all we can, so our instruments and performances are more 
informed, it wouldn't hurt to relax a bit. Some of us came to the 
lute from the guitar with a very well developed LH technique and were 
just dying to finally have an instrument on which we could, indeed, 
get going right away on the Forlorn Hope fantasy among many others 
after years of mutilating important bass lines. And for equal string 
tensions and less re-tuning, nothing beat the old "Double Seven" 
course lute.Dan

> Clearly, the answer is that Dowland adapted the
>music to the instrument at hand.  There's no shame in
>us doing the same.
>
>Chris

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[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?

[Daniel Winheld]

Right on, Ed! The lute that I call a "double 7" (It's NOT an 8 course!).

>A great majority of the music for which I use that instrument  is 
>for 7 course, but it is so very convenient to have both a low F 
>_and_ D, so I do not have to re-tune the 7th course.  I also 
>sometimes put octaves on both the 4th and 5th course, so I can play 
>Continental 6 course music.  In gut, it sound absolutely no 
>different from other 6 course lutes in gut.
>
>ed
I know that lute. Works for everything, you lucky bastard.



The slippery slope  Vincenzo Galilei was warning us about when I 
posted " on the way to 14 course Hell"
>>Stewart McCoy wrote:  Dear All,
>>Unlike many of the contributors to this thread, I don't have a 
>>problem with 8-course lutes. They suit Terzi and Molinaro, of 
>>course, but you can use them to play earlier music like Capirola, 
>>and to some extent later music where nine or ten courses are 
>>required. If you want to buy many instruments, by all means buy a 
>>6-course for Milano, a 7-course for (some) Dowland, an 8-course for 
>>Terzi, a 9-course for Francisque, a 10-course for Vallet, and then 
>>splash out on an 11-course for Mouton, a 12-course for Wilson, and 
>>a 13-course for Weiss. Why stop there? Why not spend a few more 
>>thousand quid on various sorts of theorbo and archlute, and throw 
>>in a mandora or two?

On the other hand, why not indeed? Part of being human is our love of 
too many toys- look at old Ray Fugger- and he only had 6 course 
instruments! I well remember the days when I just lusted for a single 
lute- it had to be 8 course for all the usual reasons as well as 60 
cm to get as far away from "guitar" as possible. Now some of us have 
piles of lutes, and even include 70 cm 6 course lutes in "E"; what 
goes around comes around- sort of.
I am right now babysitting a friend's collection while he is out of 
town- 2 six courses, an 8, 10, 11, 13, four acoustic and on electric 
guitar. No 7's or 9's- what's wrong with that guy? Cheap? But there 
are also several archcritters, of course.

We're not that bad if we compare ourselves to Jerry Seinfeld and his 
car collection, among other obsessive compulsives. Don't ask about my 
archery stash, or my friend's watch & clock pile.



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[LUTE] Re: Is 8c really the standard?

[Daniel Winheld]

Just a passing fancy on the way to 14 course Hell.
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[LUTE] Re: Frets

[Daniel Winheld]

Happy hour down at Schroedinger's-
Killer martinis.

>I source all my quantagut from Schroedinger's Gut Hut.
>It's the real thing. I think. Or at least it might have been.
>You should google the address; I can't recall what state it will be in.
>
>dt
>

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[LUTE] Re: Frets

[Daniel Winheld]

>" I'm holding out for quantum frets, that change temperament when you
>look at them."
>dt


You need a special mechanic for that type of fret- and spectacles of 
tempered glass. Now we know why the blind lutenist Giacomo Gorzanis 
favored ET.

I used to change temperament whenever my first wife looked at me a 
certain way.  Dan


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[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues

[Daniel Winheld]

Not me- keep the gimps; and if the Korg keeps giving you trouble tell 
it you're taking it out for coffee again...

>Any ideas about this. Yes I know you are going to tell me to swap my 
>gimped for wirewounds!!!
>and that the Korg is telling me that the string has gone false
>
>One big problem with the Zen-on is that batteries don't last, and of 
>course it is equal temperament.
>Regards
>Anthony

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[LUTE] Re: Tuning blues

[Daniel Winheld]

>In case someone doesn't know it, there's an enjoyable paper by Ross 
>Duffin online:
>"Why I hate Valotti (or is it Young?)":
>http://music.cwru.edu/duffin/
>Regards, Stephan

How nice to be validated! Thank you so much for the above reference- 
great article. When I was actively messing around with different 
tempering solutions on the lute, I ended up with 6th comma meantone 
almost by default after running through a number of others- but did 
not include V-Y ones.  Dan


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[LUTE] Re: Tuning Blues

[Daniel Winheld]

Hi Rebecca- love to help, but we need to know the string length. I 
don't know the extreme limit for a D [EMAIL PROTECTED], but when I had a 
short scale bass for solo work, I could get up to E @A=440 on 72 cm. 
w/nylon before the instrument's response pooped out. I usually kept 
it at 415 to 420 for optimum response, but never tested the breaking 
limit with gut. Others on the list will help, but you must let 
everyone know the string length, and what diameter, type, and 
manufacturer of the gut treble strings you've been using. Also of 
course check the nut with a magnifying glass under a good light to 
check for anything- pinching in the groove or any sharp edges, 
corners, etc. that could sabotage your strings. Best of luck,  Dan


>November 19th, 2007 Dear Lutenists:   I have been having trouble 
>tuning in my new 6c. Bass Renaissance Lute, I have a new tuner that 
>reads in A=440 (I believe this is for guitar) and a selection of 
>variations including A=415.  The Lute is tuned D, G, C, F, A, D in 
>double strings.  I have blown two treble D gut strings, (which makes 
>me feel quite badly), what is the correct tuning? with thanks, 
>Rebecca BanksTea at Tympani Lane Recordswww.tympanilanerecords.com


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[LUTE] Re: capo on third fret guitar

[Daniel Winheld]

And why wouldn't it work without the capo? Ed Martin has addressed 
the lute size (and the ever elusive but false "G"eeness obsession of 
20 -21st century lutenists)  succinctly and  completely. I would only 
add that one reason for the use of tabulature is precisely BECAUSE 
the "G" pitch was but one of many legitimate pitches for lutes and 
vihuelas, and learning all the transpositions necessary from one 
arbitrarily selected default pitch was unworkable for most players. 
As a professional player years ago, I did learn to read double-staff 
notated music for lutes in G. As a previously trained classical 
guitarist it wasn't hard to read staff notated A lute- just pretend 
to play a guitar with a 7th, high "a" string. Having bass viol 
experience made reading "D" bass lute from staff workable. But the 
pain in the butt factor is obvious- that's why a system that 
essentially uses a blueprint of what goes on on the fingerboard is so 
all inclusive and wonderful, at least for solo music reading pleasure 
and learning. The important thing, of course, is that you are 
playing. Just don't restrict your options for chimerical reasons.

>I don't know.. I put a capo on the 3rd fret of my guitar and got the
>relative tuning of a Ren. Lute.. it seems to work with the tabs Im
>reading.
>--
>   Joshua E. Horn
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[LUTE] Re: Renaissance consonance and dissonance

[Daniel Winheld]

>... I recommend first people learn hexachord theory and play bicinia from
>Josquin, Lassus & Isaac.

I assume the Morley can be found reprinted and for sale at any of the 
usual sources; but is there a good anthology of Bicinia? Funny thing, 
I was just thinking of them recently as I wanted to get them for 
myself and students exactly for that and other reasons.  Thanks, 
Dan


>Perhaps there is a good historical book other than Morley, but Morley
>is what I used. Read the whole thing.
>
>Bicinia have all you need, really.
>
>dt

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[LUTE] Re: vivaldi

[Daniel Winheld]

>On Nov 13, 2007, at 6:47 AM, Nigel Solomon wrote:
>
>>  Everything about it screams guitar to me: the sound, the nails, the 
>>  general approach. Yes, a guitar that looks a bit like a lute!
>
>To me, everything about it screams liuto attiorbato, like a good many 
>historical instruments in museums with fingerboard lengths under 60 
>cm and extension strings of 75-85 cm, played with nails the way
>historical Italian players would likely have played it.

And early German and British 'cellists bowed underhand, while 
overhand bowing was being developed by Italians as a new virtuoso 
technique. We drive ourselves crazy trying to define, categorize, and 
pigeon hole the past to complete our present understanding and arrive 
at a comfortably defined musical territory or neighborhood to play 
in. As for "guitars that look like lutes" check this out- (scroll ALL 
the way down...) Nothing new under the sun, is there?

http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat11.htm

The theorboed guitar - the Chitarrone Francese ?
Although this archlute-like instrument is also included in the 
continuo instruments section of the website, we have listed it here 
also because it appears to represent an overlooked approach to 
playing figured bass. The instrument depicted in this very 
accurately-draughted painting has five courses on the fingerboard 
(with the top string clearly single) and nine diapasons - compared to 
what would be expected on a similarly-sized archlute: six double 
fingerboard courses and eight diapasons.
There is a reasonable likelihood that it was, in fact, used by 
guitarists who strung and tuned the fingerboard courses like a 
guitar, and who would be used to reading from the bass clef, so that 
they could realise a figured bass part and play continuo on a 
theorboed guitar, rather than learn the completely different archlute 
tuning. The player's left hand almost exactly corresponds to chord 
'L' in the alfabetto system (L corresponds to a difficult fingering 
for a C minor chord) Sanz uses engravings of hands to illustrate the 
chord positions in his 1697 book.



>BTW, Giardino Armonico is playing here at A=392 (their D is the C on 
>my wife's piano), so Luca's A would be G at A=440.  The CD recording 
>of the same concerto that Pianca and Giardino released in 1992 was at
>A=415.

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[LUTE] Re: Double Meantone ... 'not in his practice'

[Daniel Winheld]

   "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But 
in practice, there is."
- Yogi Berra

Sorry all, couldn't resist.

>   Not quite Lord Copper: the whole point is that he doesn't actually 
>'do it in practice' as you put it.  He ignores (or is ignorant of) 
>the different dispositions of diatonic and chromatic semitones on 
>each of the strings and thus, indeed, doesn't 'do it in practice'.
>
>
>And indeed, Galilei sounds remarkably like Martyn, complaining that
>David van Ooijen's fretting is theoretically impossible even though
>David actually does it in practice.
>
>But the point here is not that Galilei thinks "frets that are spaced
>by unusual inequality of intervals" and dismissed tastini as
>wrongheaded. The point is that even in staking out his debating
>position, Galilei surprisingly concedes that the lutenists who
>disagree with him include "universally known, skillful men." He's
>aware that he's talking about a practice that's common, or respected,
>or both.

Also, according to laws of physics, biology, and aerodynamics, 
bumblebees can't fly.
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[LUTE] Re: is it true?

[Daniel Winheld]

I don't mean to be unduly negative here, but that remark hit an old 
sore spot-  I started out on a classical guitar back in the 1960's 
and people used to tell me-  "Put a capo on your guitar- NOW you have 
a lute!" Sorry, but I sure as hell did not. And then it took years 
just to get a bad lute, then more years to get a half decent one and 
more years learning to undo guitar technique and play it half way 
competently.  -Dan


"The music will sound much more lute-like at that pitch." This 
statement is misleading. Why would a Terz guitar (guitars scaled to 
"G", built in the early 19th century and also sometimes seen in 
Mariachi bands) or a capoed E instrument sound more "lute-" like than 
my old E bass lute? Even a "G" lute at historic pitch levels (another 
can of worms to be sure) will really be f# at its highest pitch, and 
possibly as low as E if you credit A=370 as a legitimate historic 
pitch. At G, (A=440) you actually have an A lute at an historic 
pitch- nothing wrong with that, of course. Just don't pretend that a 
particular pitch has anything whatsoever to do with defining an 
instrument or its timbre. The only reason to capo a guitar would be 
to accommodate left hand fingerings if a particular performer needs 
it (hopefully while waiting for his 58cm lute to be built) but it 
seems that all dedicated guitarists who like to include Renaissance 
lute music in their repertoires have no trouble with the stretches. 
-Dan

>Adding one tiny thing to Charles' instructions:  since the tuning of 
>a guitar is a third lower than the 6 course lute in g, you can place 
>a capo at the 3rd fret to raise the guitar to the same pitch as the 
>lute.  The music will sound much more lute-like at that pitch.
>
>Jim Parker

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[LUTE] Re: is it true?

[Daniel Winheld]

"The music will sound much more lute-like at that pitch." This 
statement is misleading. Why would a Terz guitar (guitars scaled to 
"G", built in the early 19th century and also sometimes seen in 
Mariachi bands) or a capoed E instrument sound more "lute-" like than 
my old E bass lute? Even a "G" lute at historic pitch levels (another 
can of worms to be sure) will really be f# at its highest pitch, and 
possibly as low as E if you credit A=370 as a legitimate historic 
pitch. At G, (A=440) you actually have an A lute at an historic 
pitch- nothing wrong with that, of course. Just don't pretend that a 
particular pitch has anything whatsoever to do with defining an 
instrument or its timbre. The only reason to capo a guitar would be 
to accommodate left hand fingerings if a particular performer needs 
it (hopefully while waiting for his 58cm lute to be built) but it 
seems that all dedicated guitarists who like to include Renaissance 
lute music in their repertoires have no trouble with the stretches. 
-Dan

>Adding one tiny thing to Charles' instructions:  since the tuning of 
>a guitar is a third lower than the 6 course lute in g, you can place 
>a capo at the 3rd fret to raise the guitar to the same pitch as the 
>lute.  The music will sound much more lute-like at that pitch.
>
>Jim Parker

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[LUTE] Re: Neck section thumb over

[Daniel Winheld]

Too late! Capirola's 2¢ has been accumulating 
with compound interest for about 500 years


"just read Capirola!   'Alla volte el si puo 
accomodarsi su la corde contrabassa su ogni

tasto' (Sometimes one can use it to play the contrabass string on any
fret). Silvestro Ganassi also writes of this practise."

From dt's earlier post...



Dear All:
 I'm sorry, but I must say I'm completely 
unconvinced by the iconography "showing" the use 
of the thumb to stop the fifth or sixth course. 
If anyone were to look at a photo of me playing 
cittern or five-course plectrum lute, they would 
see much the same thing. If one is playing 
single-line with a plectrum on an instrument 
with a narrow neck, that is the most comfortable 
position for me, and I suspect many others. And 
much of the iconography appears to be from an 
early date.
 Much more convincing are examples of tablature, 
such as the Francesco item that Arthur brought 
up, that would be very difficult or impossible 
using standard fingering but feasible using the 
thumb on the sixth course.

 Just my two cents
Cheers,
Jim


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[LUTE] Re: Neck section thumb over

[Daniel Winheld]

Suggestive of a "social" reason to change? I think that would be well 
after the fact of wider necks for easier polyphonic & chordal playing 
as well as extra courses. Perhaps similar to RH thumb style changes 
in that the thumb-out playing was already well established for 
technical and sound quality reasons and only then "... And finally 
your old-fashioned playing style is just plain ugly, degoutant, and 
your mother wears combat boots" type of thing.

I have felt that there is not enough attention paid to the variety of 
of 6 course lutes one specialist could need- but of course these days 
so many of us are trying to telescope all 300 years of multiple lute 
traditions & functions in one career and one lifetime, unthinkable 
historically.

>Many lutists are also ex-classical guitarists, and the thumb-over is 
>almost considered as vulgar and popular in the worse sense, rather 
>than somehow being seen as folk musicians having carried on older 
>techniques, that were not in the least scorned in the past. Denys 
>rather thinks that thumb-over is a "natural " way of playing if 
>barring does not become essential.
>Barring might become essential in chordal music, but not at all 
>natural in a polyphonous music.

I have seen guitarists who slide their left hands around very fast 
and adroitly going from "thumb over" to bar chord positions mid 
piece. Obviously not classical guitarists. When I worked at a guitar 
repair shop, many customers let me know that neck width was a very 
important consideration for that style of playing.   -Dan

>The Hungarian psycholinguist, Ivan Fonagy, developed a theory of the 
>Semiotics of secondary speech features, in which he claimed that any 
>vocal gesture that is not an essential functional part of a language 
>tends take on a symbolic interpretation. Thus lip-rounding, in a 
>language that does not use lip-rounding significantly, is often 
>interpreted as mouthing the shape of a kiss (a problem for English 
>speakers, particularly men,  when learning the French front rounded 
>vowels), while the very wide-open back vowels of Standard British 
>English (as in "car") are often shunned by French women students, 
>who have always learnt to speak with the most closed vowels possible 
>(widely opening the mouth even to laugh, can be considered 
>unacceptable in some cultures, where women may even cover their 
>mouth "politely" while laughing).
>Fonagy suggested that rolling the Rs in a language that no longer 
>has the rolled R, could be associated with rudely poking out the 
>tongue, or as an expression of rustic virility, while replacing the 
>R with W, or dropping it completely, a sign of extreme effectedness 
>(Les "Incoyables" (Fr. Incroyables) of the French Directoire, 
>c.1800).
>
>Thus wiggling your thumb at the audience over the top of your lute 
>neck for a musician for whom this is not part of his lute culture, 
>could also take on some similar gestural role, that somehow is just 
>rather difficult to come to terms with.
>
>Finally, for this sort of left hand technique to be resurrected we 
>would need players to specialize in 5c and 6c music to the exception 
>of anything else.
>Regards
>Anthony

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[LUTE] Re: Lute spotting

[Daniel Winheld]

Surprisingly good sound and playing level- visually pure Monty 
Python. Doesn't get better than that. -Dan


>  From the Guardian (UK) 13 October:
>
>..if you want a good laugh at the expense of the early-music 
>movement, there is on YouTube an excellent early film of Arnold 
>Dolmetsch playing the clavichord while Mabel Dolmetsch dances in an 
>"early" style...
>
>The YouTube clip this refers to actually shows Arnold Dolmetsch
>playing a lute...
>
>Andrew


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[LUTE] Re: Double Meantone

[Daniel Winheld]

>"... please excuse my ignorance."

  I don't know about any excusing, but ignorance is not an issue here 
except my own. I just came up from the lab, where I did a feasibility 
study for fingering purposes only. 7 string, steel-string guitar; 
dropped the 4th & 5th as per "G" tuning (which of course it is, with 
A=370) and 7th at D where always is anyway. The "envelope" has the 
same limits, just a "Who moved my cheese?" feeling in regard to the 
major 3rd interval. Surprisingly congenial fingerings for most of the 
chords, a few need more barring fingerings- it can be worked out. 
Scales no problem- just catch the where the 3rd is at the 5th to 6th 
string crossing. While obviously developed for continuo/ensemble 
work, I tried a few Dowland solos for giggles. "Earl of Essex" 
galliard wasn't bad. The big G major fantasia works very well. Then 
problems with Lachrymae and some other minor key pieces, but most 
things might be workable. Surprising thing is how well it sounded on 
an instrument with fixed metal frets- seemed to be a subtle 
improvement in the chord tunings, richer thirds- and more of them on 
open strings. Equal temp. on the steel string guitar never did sound 
quite right anyway, and some of the sound just now was a relief.

Looking forward to the updates and examples.Dan

>I have worked on it on and off for about a year, this is the short version.
>A more complete version will follow with musical examples that you 
>can listen to with the lute alone, and then the lute, organ and viol 
>playing together.

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[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings

[Daniel Winheld]

>>>interchangeable fingerboards for different temperaments- and there is
>>>an Iranian guitarist (forget her name) who has jusdiciously placed
>>>tastini on her guitar for Persian microtonal work.
>
>Lily Afshar?
   YES.

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[LUTE] Re: Neck section in a 6 course lute

[Daniel Winheld]

Some of the old Martin OOO and Washburn parlor guitars also had the 
V-neck. I absolutely hated it.  Only on sweaters and undershirts for 
me.-Dan



>I prefer a thick neck and even a V neck on a 6 course.
>If the V (rounded V) is done properly, it fits right into the hand,
>and you can hang your thumb over the top a bit, just as it sometimes
>appears in iconography (and is dismissed as artistic rendering). This
>also permits the thumb to play the bass notes, which is fun although
>I have no historical source for it.
>
>For 6 course thick neck, or V neck I prefer narrow spacing, but for a
>6 course with UWS (ulta wide spacing) I prefer very slightly off
>round, especiall under frets 1-3.
>   UWS is better for some pieces.
>
>The V neck is a very odd feeling for bar chords, so make sure you
>really like it.
>dt
>

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[LUTE] Re: Neck section in a 6 course lute

[Daniel Winheld]

Interesting- my experience has been the exact opposite. My hybrid 6 
course (Arnault de Zwolle body mated to a typical late 15th/early 
16th century 8 fret 6 course fingerboard) originally had a very thin 
neck; extremely uncomfortable (hand cramped up) but only after about 
20 minutes or so of playing. Mel Wong re-necked the thing a couple of 
years ago; much thicker neck -don't know if it conforms exactly to 
historic specs- but now it's a joy to play, and my technique is based 
on the lowered wrist/classical guitar form.   Dan


>Dear Collective Wisdom,
>I need some advice on the neck section of an Italian 6 course lute.
>Last week I met in Milano a lutemaker who made a copy of the well-known
>Magno dieffopruchar lute held in the J & A Beare Collection in 
>London. I was
>together with a well known Italian lutenist who, at first, refused even to
>try  the  instrument,  as  the "parabola"-section neck of the lute was
>incredibly deep.
>After what has been a very instructive (and funny) discussion we all tried
>the instrument with different results: I am a tall guy and therefore the
>neck measure has not been a major issue for me, while my teacher complained
>that the measure prevented him from playing easily.
>I have to admit that I had never played on such a "thick" neck, but the
>lutemaker insisted that the measurements taken on the original instrument
>matched perfectly her neck.
>I have after checked many lute pictures, including the Holbein 
>"Ambassadors"
>portrait and spent some time on the very informative page in 
>Barber & Harris
>website ([1]http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat01.htm): I 
>tend to think
>she's right. The original 6 course lute neck was very "thick" (or deep, if
>you prefer).
>The trouble is that all 7 course (or more) lute I have played are REALLY
>much more confortable to play, especially because thir necks are thinner.
>Is any of the lutemakers on this list able to provide me some measures to
>think about? Any advice?
>By the way: that lute sounded great, with a  well-balanced, clear tone and
>an excellent projection.
>Thank you in advance,
>Luca

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[LUTE] Re: was historical lute stringings--double first course

[Daniel Winheld]

>  >I played for some time an instrument with doubled first course, the
>>spacing was very important and the sound was not good above an F.

Exactly my experience- Barber-Harris vihuela, 64.5 cm sl, doubles 
worked at f, no higher- (instrument as a whole craps out down at e, 
sounds best somewhere close to f#); kept them on as long as I could 
but my touch was not reliable enough to keep the sound clean over the 
long haul. On the plus side, very homogeneous sound- no chantarelle 
as prima donna of the strings- polyphonic works had a beautiful, even 
quality. I can imagine the double first would  be good in continuo 
and accompaniment situations.  -Dan



>An important concern is the long trills, they rattle a bit with the
>thin strings.
>
>
>I only really prefer it on bass lute, theorbo & baroque mandolin.
>dt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>--
>>
>>
>>
>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel 510.526.0242 
Cell 510.915.4276

[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings /Re: marker at 7th fret

[Daniel Winheld]

Top of the afternoon to you too, Ed-

Not against markers, just don't like the appearance. On my 72 cm. 8 
course, (that's a LONG highway for these old fingers) Barber put a 
very discreet little white dot at the seventh, on the neck near the 
neck/fingerboard junction, worked very well anytime I was stupid 
enough to look down at unspeakable activities happening on the 
fingerboard.

I thought metal frets were avoided because they would eat up gut strings?

  -Dan

>Howdy, Dan!
>
>I do use markers, as I play many different sized instruments.  I 
>recall working with a lutenist about 8 years, ago, practicing duets. 
>This particular lutenist plays many different kinds of lutes, and in 
>one piece, he was not hitting the right note up on the 8th or 9th 
>fret.  I suggested a marker on the 7th, & he initially resisted, but 
>then decided to consent in trying it.  After using a drop of "white 
>out" on the 7th fret, he played the correct note every time.  He was 
>a convert at that time.
>
>Paul O'Dette also uses markers, and for good reason - it makes him a 
>more accurate player.  If one had only 1 instrument, then it would 
>be less of a need to mark the 7th fret.  However, with many 
>different styles and length lutes, it really is helpful  to use a 
>marker, in my opinion.
>
>I am curious to see, hear, or play the newly loaded strings; 
>however, I am satisfied with copper or solver gimped, as they are 
>true & accurate.
>
>Dan Larson stopped loading strings years ago, for the same reasons 
>that Mimmo did.  It was too time consuming & expensive.  Many 
>strings would break, many were false.  It was also too time 
>consuming for him to be replacing false loaded strings.  So, he 
>stopped production, and went with a gut bass that sounds great & the 
>quality control is vastly improved - the gimped string.
>
>ed

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[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings /Re: marker at 7th fret

[Daniel Winheld]

Uh-oh boys 'n girls- we're mixing our threads here. I've never felt 
strongly about the marker marks except that they've always bothered 
me aesthetically- but on rare occasions helped me out when playing 
strictly from memory; which (classical) guitarists have always done 
far more than any of us lute critters. (How do you get the guitarist 
to shut up? -Give him sheet music)

I still want answers about the new, improved loaded basses that are 
UNDOUBTEDLY coming our way any minute now...

.. And isn't it interesting that by the mid 17th century, seventy 
some years after the Great String Improvement the French lutenists 
had dropped the 1st course down to "f", singled out the 2nd, and 
re-established 8ves at the 6th.  Of course Dowland could have been 
voicing a musically elite and minority opinion in regard to the 
unison 6th.

Not sure what the norm was for 8ves in Italy- but still set up for 
mostly doubled firsts on liuti attorbiati, no?

Dan

>For what it's worth...
>
>Perhaps the difference is that we lutenists daren't take our eyes 
>off the tablature, and so we have to find our way about the neck of 
>our instrument by touch, not sight. Having said that, I think I 
>might just stick something close tothe 7th fret...
>
>Alan
>- Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 6:15 PM
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
>
>>  > "I think Mimmo Peruffo may not reply because he may not want
>>>to appear to be advertising his wares on this list. It is a
>>>difficult situation for string makers and lute makers whenever they
>>>communicate, it could be considered that indirectly they are trying
>>>to sell their wares."
>>
>>Couple of thoughts- I'm sure that Mimmo, our most advanced, dedicated
>>commercial stringmaker, wouldn't merely be sharing his latest
>>conclusions and historical/scientific research results just for the
>>hell of it- something's got to be up; and he knows how badly some of
>>us want the next inevitable step to fall (waiting patiently for the
>>other shoe to drop?) in regard to the loaded gut bass strings. They
>>were so close! -But as pointed out, too many problems and headaches
>>involved.
>>
>>I still have a pair of perfectly matched, in tune, loaded guts for
>>the only satisfactory unison pairing of this string type I've
>>encountered for the 6th course of my 7 course Andreas Holst lute. At
>>the 2005 LSA event in Cleveland Cathy Liddell was still wearing a
>>very carefully maintained set of loaded gut bass fundamentals 6 - 11
>>on her Baroque lute.
>>
>>Come on, Mimmo! You've got our attention, big time- unload the loaded
>>guts on us- please!   Dan
>>
>>P.S.-  How many of us have had success- long term, that is, playing
>>cleanly and maintaining in tune the doubled first course, any string
>>material or on any instrument?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>
>>
>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 
>>01/11/2007 06:01
>>
>
>
>--
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel 510.526.0242 
Cell 510.915.4276

[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings

[Daniel Winheld]

>   "I think Mimmo Peruffo may not reply because he may not want 
>to appear to be advertising his wares on this list. It is a 
>difficult situation for string makers and lute makers whenever they 
>communicate, it could be considered that indirectly they are trying 
>to sell their wares."

Couple of thoughts- I'm sure that Mimmo, our most advanced, dedicated 
commercial stringmaker, wouldn't merely be sharing his latest 
conclusions and historical/scientific research results just for the 
hell of it- something's got to be up; and he knows how badly some of 
us want the next inevitable step to fall (waiting patiently for the 
other shoe to drop?) in regard to the loaded gut bass strings. They 
were so close! -But as pointed out, too many problems and headaches 
involved.

I still have a pair of perfectly matched, in tune, loaded guts for 
the only satisfactory unison pairing of this string type I've 
encountered for the 6th course of my 7 course Andreas Holst lute. At 
the 2005 LSA event in Cleveland Cathy Liddell was still wearing a 
very carefully maintained set of loaded gut bass fundamentals 6 - 11 
on her Baroque lute.

Come on, Mimmo! You've got our attention, big time- unload the loaded 
guts on us- please!   Dan

P.S.-  How many of us have had success- long term, that is, playing 
cleanly and maintaining in tune the doubled first course, any string 
material or on any instrument?





















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[LUTE] Re: was gut now nut

[Daniel Winheld]

Alright, this thread has finally bitten me- Where 
can I get TUSQ? My 7-course badly needs a new nut 
anyway. Are blanks available?

Thanks,   Dan W.

"Compared to standard materials, you'll hear 
crystal clear bell-like high end, big open lows, 
and a noticeable increase in overall sustain.TUSQ 
nuts are designed to transfer the right 
frequencies more efficiently from the string to 
the guitar body, and have been proven to increase 
a guitar's harmonic sustain. Acoustic guitars 
come alive with delicate highs and big open lows! 
TUSQ is far superior in sound and appearance to 
synthetics such as Micarta and Corian. The high 
levels of heat and pressure used in making TUSQ 
results in its exotic ivory-like appearance"

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[LUTE] Re: String Question

[Daniel Winheld]

Craig, I think your friend would be much better off to simply trade 
for a very cheap, 6-string guitar set up for nylon and just dive 
right into the Renaissance lute repertoire as is. As was pointed out 
somewhere, the Barley lute book came out in 1597 for a 6 course lute. 
As a beginner it will be a long time before he needs a 7th (or more) 
course or the 3 or so pieces that require split fingering of the 3rd. 
If he must keep the 12 and can do nothing else, he could simply tie a 
knot near the end of the string then burn the end below it to keep it 
from pulling apart when it comes up against the bridge pin when 
tuning. Another alternative is to simply use very much lighter steel 
strings, but unison out the third course; perhaps the 4th and even 
the 5th as well depending on what he wants to hear. Now he will have 
a "stealth" Orpharion- a reasonable option. I actually found (by 
accident) a 7 string (singles) guitar a number of years ago that I 
use precisely for the change of timbre, and have found the right 
stringing/pitch levels that allow me to switch from orpharion to 
bandora tuning in less time than it takes to retune my Baroque lute 
from say, B-flat to A.

>Dear Collected Wisdom,
>
>A fellow I know wants to start learning the lute. However he can't 
>afford a lute at this time. Instead he has a 12-string guitar that 
>he wants to do a non-invasive conversion to. That is he wants to 
>restring it with nylon strings instead of the steel ones that are 
>standard on such guitars. The problem is that steel strings have a 
>nut or ball on the end that is held in the bridge by a peg. He has 
>found that D'Addario has a ball ended nylon string 
>(http://www.classicax.com/daddario/folk.htm#anchor443559) but this 
>page is rather confusing as to whether he can get a full set or even 
>if they are completely nylon but, as seems to be implied, metal 
>wound over nylon. Has anyone had any experience with these string in 
>particular or any other strings that might suit this beginner 
>without his having to replace the bridge on his guitar to allow for 
>tied on strings?
>
>Thank you for your time.
>
>Regards,
>Craig
>
>
>_
>Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy
>with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com
>
>
>
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[LUTE] Re: Looking for new tuner + computers

[Daniel Winheld]

>Re: proverbial 40 years tuning--
>Shouldn't take more than a minute to tune a lute :)
>
>
>dt
The years fly by so fast.
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[LUTE] Re: longbows lutes and Law suits

[Daniel Winheld]

>But was your lute amplified? No mi Lud.
>Did it have carbon strings?, No mi Lud

Getting into the P.D.Q. BACH, "Concerto for bagpipes and lute" 
territory here? One relishes the thought of those law students being 
serenaded by a regiment of Scotland's finest. For true sonic assault, 
(eschewing  harquebuses, longbows and other purely military tools- 
this is a music board, after all) nothing beat the old Winchester 
organ.

"The 10th century organ at Winchester was audible at three, offensive 
at two, and lethal at one mile's distance. Indeed the inventor of the 
repeating rifle was proud to name it after its formidable 
predecessor."

What must have been happening to windows and the local populace in 
the vicinity of this instrument has been described by Mersenne, and 
as related and commented upon by learned David Tayler-

"The description of verre cassee by Mersenne, characterized by extreme
shaking, is clearly not what we mean by vibrato  in the modern sense.
The term itself, broken glass, implies a more extreme ornament."

-who discerns that it is third-hand information; no doubt we have now 
pinpointed the source.

>Ah, I see it was a mute, not a lute
>
>Case closed in favour of the Mutists
>Best regards
>Anthony
>LLB and JD failed

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[LUTE] Re: Lute Methods

[Daniel Winheld]

Some confusion may be due to the works of Allan Alexander, who has 
composed or arranged and published easy beginner's pieces for 
Renaissance lute. For what it' worth here is his website: 
http://home.earthlink.net/~guitarandlute/ dw


>I believe the Alexander Method is one of muscle-relaxation and posture
>coupled with attention to what your body wants to do and doesn't want
>to do, so you develop your technique in a way that reduces strain and
>increases endurance and control.
>
>That said, my friends have had Alexander sessions, and most of them
>swear by it, but none of them play lute. So I don't think there's an
>Alexander Method (like a method book) but rather lute teachers who
>incorporate the Alexander Method into their teaching.
>
>There is a web site, http://www.alexandertechnique.com/, which should
>be more illuminating.
>
>ray
>
>On 10/13/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  Hello All-
>>  Here are a couple of questions from a neophyte. Someone, a day or two ago,
>>  mentioned "the Alexander Method" of lute playing.
>>  What is this and what are the other methods? Where can one find written
>>  instruction in thes methods if one doesn't have an instructor.
>>  Cheers,
>  > Charlie

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[LUTE] Re: longbows & lutes

[Daniel Winheld]

Hi honey I'm home time for some answers-

>Yep. Archery-derived lutestring hooking would produce deliciously funky sound.

"Hooking" of lute strings would have to be learned independently of 
archery. At one's very first archery lesson it becomes manifest that 
the shot cannot come off unless the distal joints of the drawing 
fingers relax- instantaneously and completely. This cannot happen 
with fingers that are stiffened, frozen into some kind of hooked 
shape- from any cause whatsoever. The least interference in the 
snapping forward of the string and the shot is ruined completely. It 
has to come from relaxing the drawing hand; one cannot deliberately 
throw the hand open by contracting the extensor muscles on the 
outside of the forearm because that is not fast enough. Loose, 
healthy joints are a must, perhaps more so than for the lute. This is 
a point that cannot be argued by one who is not knowledgeable about 
archery technique. It is as true for a 20# bow as for a 200# bow. Of 
course it is possible to learn to shoot improperly and injure and 
stiffen the joints or damage the nerves- but then one's archery would 
be as badly ruined as one's lute playing.

I would be more than happy to get together with anyone for a little 
show 'n tell- I'll shoot any number of shots from any of my bows; 
right handed, left handed, three-finger draw and Asiatic thumb 
release. Then we'll see if I can still play the lute.

>>NB, I have no interest in firearms.   DW
>Too bad. The arquebus was supremely effective against archers.
>RT

What?!! Archery has become obsolete for military use??? You're 
kidding!! When the hell did that happen? I must have been asleep. 
Gosh, you're right about that one. I will rekindle my interest in 
firearms. Next thing you know they might even use electricity to 
power guitars! -Nah, that's crazy talk.

>>>I'd say that archery is a totally useless waste of time for a 
>>>luteplayer, considering that the flowering of lute occurs after the
advent, and hegemony, of the firearm.

So if the lute had flowered during the late 13th through early 15th 
century- before the advent & hegemony of the firearm- then it WOULD 
be a useful waste of time for lute players? How about early Medieval 
lute specialists? Are they OK?
In any case, I find playing lutes of all kinds and shooting bows of 
all kinds to be wonderful, fulfilling, and delightful wastes of time- 
and so far it has never bothered my fuzzy little head that in the 
distant past they had non-simultaneous flowering episodes.

OK, I am done with this. And I do hope that Lou Aull may continue his 
lute playing without any interference from the legal profession- 
whether it includes lawyer-lutenists or not.  DW

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[LUTE] Re: longbows & lutes

[Daniel Winheld]

A shame that Henry and Liz were not privy to your wisdom. The great 
target scores of English SPORTING archery, set by A. Horace Ford in 
the 1850's -unmatched until the 20th century- were accomplished after 
the "advent, flowering, and hegemony" of the lute. Are you saying 
that  Howard Posner, Ben Cohen, et al were part of the Emory 
University gang that prevented that lute concert? Obviously the only 
focus of my little rant was the specific group of lawyers involved; 
and the possession of a sense of humor is necessary for a basic 
comprehension of said rant. I'm sure archery would, indeed, be a 
waste of time for you, and please feel free to join the NRA so that 
you can learn proper gun safety and remain logical. Don't mess with 
Shakespeare, either, as his work also requires a sense of humor.

I must get to work now, and can explain the real concerns of finger 
joint management vis a vis lute and archery technique later. That is 
a topic meriting serious discussion to those truly interested. And I 
will go one on one with anybody when it comes to joint flexibility. 
NB, I have no interest in firearms.   DW


>>Obviously a situation calling for using the mighty Yew tree in its
>>military form. Shakespeare, of course, understood the need for
>>preparing the venue before a concert could proceed-  "First, we kill
>>all the lawyers..."
This thoughtless exhortation would include among intended victims 
Howard Posner, Ben Cohen, a nephew of mine, and some other worthy 
individuals.
>
>
>
>
>>As the only archer amongst all the lute players (so far as I know- as
>>well as the only lutenist amongst the archers) I can't recommend the
>>study of archery too strongly- what a great balance of culturally &
>>physically complementary disciplines. Both Henry VIII and
>>Elizabeth I were archers as well as lute players, after all.
>>
>>dw
>I'd say that archery is a totally useless waste of time for a 
>luteplayer, considering that the flowering of lute occurs after the 
>advent, and hegemony, of the firearm.
>Joining NRA would be infinitely more logical.
RT
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[LUTE] Re: longbows & lutes

[Daniel Winheld]

Obviously a situation calling for using the mighty Yew tree in its 
military form. Shakespeare, of course, understood the need for 
preparing the venue before a concert could proceed-  "First, we kill 
all the lawyers..." and the longbow, even more than other bows, is a 
silent weapon well suited for sniper work while at the same time 
maintaining proper decorum in the library and its adjacent hallways. 
The low whistle of the grey goose wing should be the last sound to 
annoy the tender ears of these litigious Lilliputians.

As the only archer amongst all the lute players (so far as I know- as 
well as the only lutenist amongst the archers) I can't recommend the 
study of archery too strongly- what a great balance of culturally & 
physically complementary disciplines. Both Henry VIII and Elizabeth I 
were archers as well as lute players, after all.

dw

>While preparing for a concert on ren lute years ago at Emory University, in
>the Law School building, I stepped out into the hallway to practice a few
>quiet licks while the consort practiced another piece I didn't play in. This
>was at 8pm. The hallway was cavernous and made a nice echo. Within a minute,
>a crowd of angry law students with a security officer appeared and began to
>verbally assault me. Yes and even threatened to sue for damages. How dare I
>pluck a lute in a law shool with future lawyers in the torture of studying!
>I told them I would stop, but the shouting peresisted on into the lecture
>hall where the concert was to be. The concert was cancelled by the Law
>School faculty and I got letters. The library was a floor down through two
>sets of fire doors. And you though you had tough critics. "I didn't know the
>lute was loaded"
>
>Lou Aull
>
>--
>
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