Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Mr Buckner, This is exactly what I was after -- a _constructive_ rebuttal based on fact, not hearsay, emotion or experience. As I have tried to make clear, there is never _one_ view of things, particularly in the social sciences (such as this). You obviously believe differently to myself, and you have been able to articulate your views clearly. For that I applaud you. In contrast to what some may think, it was never my intention to force my view upon others, but rather to convince people to be more open-minded about such matters. I have reread the portions of my posts which you have quoted, and I have taken note of some of your observations so that I may learn from them. While you make some very valid points (supported by some good evidence), I cannot agree with most of your argument. Nevertheless, I respect your view, for it is clear that you have carefully thought it over. Regards, Sridhar. On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:33:02 -0700, Rich Buckner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mr. Dhanapalan: I have read most if not all of your posts on this topic, and disagree with the vast bulk of what you say. The post to which I am responding, however, reflects such a far too short-sighted view of history that the temptation to respond is irresistible. On Wednesday 12 September 2001 06:38 am, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: [snip] Umm... Have you actually read or seen what's _really_ going on? By this, I mean from _credible_ sources like good historians and theorists (e.g. Wade, Johnson, Vogel, etc.), not the mass-media, which is notorious for its oversimplification of facts. It appears that YOU are the victim of mis-representations and hearsay. How can you expect to be truly objective when you _live_ in the country? This is simply impossible, because of factors like emotional attachments, habits and teachings (e.g. from schools and the media). The same would go for any nation that one is attached to. I don't expect to be able to be objective about my country, because I like it. No one is truly objective. Everyone has biases that affect their thoughts and reasoning. Is a non-resident of the US who hates the US necessarily more unbiased than a US resident who loves his country? No, not necessarily. Your posts reflect your biases. This post no doubt reflects mine. The fact that I have biases (or that the poster to whom you were replying above has biases) does not inevitably mean that the point of view I express is wrong, that the point of view the previous poster expressed is wrong, or that your point of view is incorrect. [snip] Not so. Your approach is very un-scientific indeed. [snip] Any analysis of historic trends, causes, and effects is by its very nature un-scientific because any such analysis ultimately amounts to an expression of the analyst's opinion. Your posts are full of subjective, qualitative views about whether the US is good or bad, how much harm it has caused, and the like. Those opinions, with which I disagree with strongly, may be honestly held, but they remain un-scientific opinions. [snip] Your inflexibility and lack of receptibility to different ideas and viewpoints is worrisome. If you read academic political papers over the years, you will notice how attitudes and views change with time, as situations change and new evidence and theories come to light. The world is ever-changing, not static. You need to try to evolve with this or risk falling behind and being cast aside as an old relic. Many older people I meet tend to be Cold Warriors, that is those who are stuck in the old Cold War mentality that communism is all evil and that the USA is the bastion of world democracy and hence is all good. Could you be one of those Cold Warriors, Jose? Here's a wake-up call: nothing is perfect. Since the end of the Cold War, people have been noticing the widening cracks in the armour of the Anglo-American neoliberal system, which for so long had remained stable due to the constant communist threat. You seem to imply that one can read academic political papers and that those papers somehow establish the right answer about whether the US is good or bad, and that events predating the Cold War are now irrelevant to a qualitative evaluation of the US. I think you are clearly wrong on both points. First, academic political papers reflect nothing more than the opinions of their authors. As a colleague of mine likes to say opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one. I daresay that, if I wanted to spend the time, I could find academic papers that would support almost any view, even views that are later shown to be demonstrably wrong. After all, the head of the US Patent Office in the early 1900s expressed the view that everything that could be invented had by that time already been invented, and Bill Gates thought that 64k (not 64m) of memory ought to be enough for anyone.
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:07:49 -0400, Jose M. Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: God are you full of yourself... Sounds more like the other way around. I substantiated my arguments with fact and reason. If you doubt any of it, try looking it up in something _reputable_. You, on the other hand, appear to be incapable of articulating yourself in such a situation, possibly blinded by your emotions and by what you call experience. I appreciate _constructive_ crriticism, for it is a good way to learn. However, your brand of criticism is nothing but constructive, as you offer no reasons as to why you disagree. It is simply a troll. I'm quite sure that this will, as is normal for most people, lead to a very thoughtful and even tempered adult. For the moment though it really sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black. I try to consider things from different viewpoints, in order to gauge a better understanding of them. Your xenophobia when it comes to different ideas is distressing. There is nothing I could do to change your mind on those points you have wrong, that you are citing from here-say. Nor do I want or need to, as experience is a MUCH better teacher. I do not wish to necessarily change people's minds, but merely to open them up a little to consider new viewpoints. Once considered, an informed decision can hopefully be made, and the view can be either accepted (either in full or in part) or discarded altogether. You seem to be incapable of doing so. Experience teaches you ONE viewpoint, grounded in ONE community and ONE culture. You cannot expect to understand the world with this kind of knowledge. Do _you_ understand the the Taliban (assuming they did it) act the way they do? Your experience cannot explain Islamic fundamentalism at all. I have read in proper academic articles and journals, U-huh, this confirms my original statement. This was merely an example, and your ignorant response only serves to confirm my original obversations about you. Proper academics are always careful to reference their work thoroughly, in order to provide evidence supporting their views. You do no such thing. You don't even offer a view other than the equivalent of you're a moron. How can you expect anyone to believe you when you don't state why you think this way? How old are YOU, anyway? You're starting to sound like an old broken vinyl record to me. Come back when you actually have something constructive to say instead of trolls. -JMS -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:17:37 -0700 (PDT), Jesse C. Chang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jose M. Sanchez wrote: God are you full of yourself... Like civileme said previously (I think it was him), both sides have a kernel of truth in them. He (Sridhar) is not entirely off-base. What Americans percieve as an act of evil might very well be considered a blow against evil by many Muslims, much like the Crusades were by the Christians of the Middle Ages. It's pretty ridiculous the way people can justify the atrocities they commit as being in the name of their God (I'm not saying that is definitely the case here, but it is a possiblity). Exactly. It depends on how you see things. For example, the motives (and hence the root of the problem) of the Taliban (or whoever did it) _cannot_ be understood with standard Western neoliberal thinking. They are _not_ Western, and they are certainly _not_ neoliberal. However, I have to agree that his attitude leaves something to be desired. But it's something that every teenager goes through. I know I've been there, thinking I am somehow more knowledgeable than most everyone else just because I learned something new. In a few years, real world experience will give him a wake-up call, and he'll realize that, as he becomes older and wiser, just how much he doesn't know. Perhaps this _is_ just something that every teenager goes through. I have never really disputed that, and I never will. However, I _did_ provide evidence in support, and I believe it is quite ridiculous when someone posts the equivalent of you're a moron, without saying why. I never expected everyone to agree with me. I merely intended to offer an alternate viewpoint from the standard one put forward by much of the media and by many governments worldwide. If one disagrees after actually _considering_ it with an open mind, then fine. But if somebody says I'm older than you, I have more experience, you're wrong without giving a real reason, I only get the impression that this person has no independent thought whatsoever, and that they are reacting simply based on emotion, not on independent thought or reason. And I mean beyond just saying, I don't claim to know everything, which is absolutely meaningless, especially when immediately followed by, but I know more than most people. Most people don't specialise in government and international relations. Most people don't read books, articles and journals on these topics very often, if at all. Therefore, it is difficult for most people to gain a real grasp of the situation. _This_ is the simple point I was trying to make. Would you argue with a doctor over medical treatments? No, because doctors generally know much more than the average person in the field of medicine, due to training. Jesse -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Thursday 13 September 2001 12:39 am, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: Mr Buckner, This is exactly what I was after -- a _constructive_ rebuttal based on fact, not hearsay, emotion or experience. As I have tried to make clear, there is never _one_ view of things, particularly in the social sciences (such as this). You obviously believe differently to myself, and you have been able to articulate your views clearly. For that I applaud you. In contrast to what some may think, it was never my intention to force my view upon others, but rather to convince people to be more open-minded about such matters. I have reread the portions of my posts which you have quoted, and I have taken note of some of your observations so that I may learn from them. While you make some very valid points (supported by some good evidence), I cannot agree with most of your argument. Nevertheless, I respect your view, for it is clear that you have carefully thought it over. Regards, Sridhar. Sridhar (if I may call you that, and I would like to in light of your response), Thank you for your response. In my view, and, from your post I believe in your view as well, there is no right answer on the issues we have discussed. I am very glad that you are willing to consider the points I have tried to make, and have no problem at all if you decide to reject them after consideration. What I really wanted, and want, is to open a dialogue with each of us considering the other's point of view, recognizing that reasonable minds may differ. I hope that, as events go forward, you will keep in mind the points I have tried to make and continue to evaluate and re-evaluate their merits. Just to provide you with some context, I was actually shocked at the depth of feeling that recent events and your posts have evoked in me since I have spent most of my life complaining about my government's policies. I was one of the hippies in the streets in the late 1960's protesting my government's stance in Viet Nam. I was one of the happiest people alive when Nixon was impeached. In short, I am a very unlikely person to post to a newsgroup a defense of my country's policies and actions. Watching the film of the attack on 9/11, and reading your posts, however, have caused me to think very hard on the US and how I feel about my country. Doing so reminded me that I truly do love my country. I doubt that any country, other than perhaps the USSR, has ever lived under the constant threat of nuclear annihilation, something I have not thought about for a very long time. When I was six, seven, and eight years old (the late 1950s and very early 1960s), we used to have drills in school about what to do in the event of a nuclear attack (obviously from Russia since, at the time, no one else had nuclear weapons). During those drills, we were to get under our desks at school. Today, we all know that the idea that we would survive a nuclear attack if we got under our school desks, but we would not if we failed to do so, is ridiculous. In fact, the whole idea is so silly that it led to parody charts setting out all the steps we followed during our drills and adding one more step: in the event of nuclear attack, we should follow the steps we practiced in school and, after doing so, we should bend over real far and kiss our a$$s goodbye. That thought -- that we could be annihilated by the USSR -- always colored US policy before the end of the Cold War. It also, undeniably, led to some bad choices about who to support in certain other countries. I still do not believe those choices were made in bad faith or out of unreasonable selfishness. I think those choices were made out of fear and self-preservation. In any event, I am delighted by your post. From a different post, I see that you are young. Being young is the best thing so long as you keep an open mind, evaluate new facts as you receive them, and constantly reevaluate your views based on information as you receive it. Please don't formulate opinions now and believe that you must defend them as a matter of personal honor. You are obviously an intelligent person; use that intelligence to constantly acquire new facts, to evaluate those facts objectively, and to modifiy your views, if appropriate, based on new information. Please understand that the people of the United States. like the people of every country I have visited, are, individually, well-meaning. That is why indiscriminate terrorist attacks are so bad. I am glad we had this dialog. I truly would be interested in citations to reading material that you believe supports the viewpoints you have expressed as I think consideration of other viewpoints, even if you regard them as wrong, is always a useful intellectual exercise. To be honest, if I disagree with those materials, I would enjoy the exercise of reviewing them and deciding in my own mind why they are wrong. Please feel free
RE: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Yes. This is exactly the point. -JMS |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jesse C. Chang |Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:18 PM |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK | | |Jose M. Sanchez wrote: | | God are you full of yourself... | |Like civileme said previously (I think it was him), both sides |have a kernel of truth in them. He (Sridhar) is not entirely |off-base. What Americans percieve as an act of evil might |very well be considered a blow against evil by many Muslims, |much like the Crusades were by the Christians of the Middle |Ages. It's pretty ridiculous the way people can justify the |atrocities they commit as being in the name of their God (I'm |not saying that is definitely the case here, but it is a possiblity). | |However, I have to agree that his attitude leaves something to |be desired. But it's something that every teenager goes |through. I know I've been there, thinking I am somehow more |knowledgeable than most everyone else just because I learned |something new. In a few years, real world experience will |give him a wake-up call, and he'll realize that, as he becomes |older and wiser, just how much he doesn't know. And I mean |beyond just saying, I don't claim to know everything, which |is absolutely meaningless, especially when immediately |followed by, but I know more than most people. | | |Jesse | |-- | !! Jesse C. Chang [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [___] | `|' I have the simplest tastes. I am always | /|\ satisfied with the best. -- Oscar Wilde | | Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Sridhar... I have no desire to debate you as it is pointless a counterproductive waste of time. Others are going to love to engage you in this and already you've received rebuttals which encompass both my sentiments and feelings. Rich did a pretty good job. This however makes you no less or more than what you are... Full of yourself. Time is a teacher that no one is able to resist. -JMS |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Sridhar |Dhanapalan |Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:40 AM |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK | | |On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:07:49 -0400, Jose M. Sanchez |[EMAIL PROTECTED] |wrote: | | God are you full of yourself... | Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Sridhar You are itching for something to rebut, for something to refute. This does nothing to make your statements or facts correct, appropriate or thoughtful nor help matters at all. Let someone else give stroke your ego. I don't care to. You simply don't get it. -JMS Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:24:06 -0400, Jose M. Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sridhar... I have no desire to debate you as it is pointless a counterproductive waste of time. Your above statement is true. It is impossible to argue with someone who is stuck in their ways and unwilling to even _consider_ alternate viewpoints. I only wished for people to _consider_ different ideas, not to necessarily accept them. Your stubbornness makes you appear to be incapable of doing even this. Others are going to love to engage you in this and already you've received rebuttals which encompass both my sentiments and feelings. Rich did a pretty good job. He most certainly did, and I have lauded him for it. So why must _you_ be so incapable of being as civilised and articulate as he? This however makes you no less or more than what you are... Full of yourself. I provided a reason for my views. In return, you have called me names, without providing _any_ reason whatsoever, as if you were three years old. I would say that _you_ are full of yourself. Once again, I invite you to actually _prove_ me wrong. Time is a teacher that no one is able to resist. I never discounted the role of experience; I merely indicated that there are other factors which must be considered which experience alone cannot address. Tell me, what experience do _you_ have of Afghanistan or the Taleban? I have mentioned this before, and you have conveniently sidestepped this (along with all my other arguments) as if you were some sort of spin doctor. -JMS I shall try to leave things there (I tried before, but you persisted). I do not wish for Deno to take me off this list for continuing an off-topic thread. |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Sridhar |Dhanapalan |Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:40 AM |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK | | |On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:07:49 -0400, Jose M. Sanchez |[EMAIL PROTECTED] |wrote: | | God are you full of yourself... -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:08:48 -0500, Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 07:15 pm, Franki escribió: There were alot of IT companies based in those towers, and some banks, this could effect the world ecomomy... especially if the US goes into a rescesion because of it... they were on the brink already... rgds frank My Thoughts had nothin to do with money, any denomination. The world runs on people and their thoughts, not just their produce materially. So I say again. Attacks by misguided cowardly punk assholes affects the whole world, specially those that deserve it least. Even this world's most unfortunate children took a big hit today. Those in the USA, and specially those suported worldwide by http://www.christianchildrensfund.org/ I doubt the zealot cowardly asshole mass murders who acted today were thinkin about anybody but themselves, and what they want. They left many chilren dead, or without parents ... or support. As much as I feel for today's victims, the children of the world are in greater need. Please help if you can God bless Okay, I'm going to have to speak my mind here. My apologies if I offend anyone. The basics of life are food, clothing and shelter. I see no reason proselytising to these poor, vulnerable and impressionable CHILDREN. All these groups do is destroy the language and culture of these people, and they have little choice in accepting this if they want to live. It is just cultural imperialism in disguise. If you REALLY want to help the underprivileged, consider supporting organisations like PLAN (http://www.plan-international.org/) and Amnesty International (http://www.amnesty.org/). Your support will go towards actually _helping_ these people, not indoctrination, whether it be religious or political. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:03:37 +0800, Franki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the terrorists deserver american style justice... NOBODY deserves american style justice. Do you support capital punishment? The USA is the only advanced democracy that does, and it has ignored United Nations pressure to change that. Do you support homophobic laws? The last time I checked, twenty of fifty US states have laws prohibiting homosexual behaviour. Do you support companies like Nike and Microsoft, who exploit people worldwide for their own financial gain? Do you support laws that benefit large capitalist corporations at the expense of the average citizen, like the DMCA? Civileme has mentioned in a number of posts that he is afraid to go back to his own country (the US) for fear of him being persecuted under DMCA-style laws (CMIIW, Civileme). Things aint that simple. There is always another viewpoint, and we must try to view things the way 'they' would see it, in order to understand them and determine their motives. If your family and community was impoverished and subject to a brutal authoritarian regime, all thanks to US Foreign Policy, wouldn't _you_ want revenge? I am doing a major in Government and International Relations as part of my university degree (along with Information Systems). The most important thing to learn is that you cannot impose Western liberal views upon those who haven't had a Western liberal upbringing. For example, if these guys are Arab, then you have to think like an Arab in order to understand them. Thinking like an Australian or an American doesn't help one bit. Before I get labelled as being callous, let me add that I do _not_ condone such behaviour, and my heart goes out to the victims' families. It is important, however, to remain calm and level-headed in such a crisis. This is, understandably, _very_ difficult to do if you know someone who is involved. We should try to look objectively at the events, and not just get swept away by all the media coverage. Why give then an anesthetic before killing them (by putting them to sleep) they didnt' give their victims any choice in the matter... They deserve alot more then peaceful sleep, they deserve public torture... to serve as a warning... It won't happen, but its what they deserver,, and because it won't happen, it will one day happen again... Geeze, I am such a bastard about this Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Lanman Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2001 12:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Matt Greer Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK Matt; My comments regarding possible retribution were directed ONLY at those responsible. Didn't mean to give you the wrong impression. And I believe that - given the chance- President Bush will take extreme pleasure in bringing those responsible over to our side of the pond (if at all possible, assuming that they're not already here), to face justice American style. The American people will expect it. Kind of a slap in the face to those murderers. Knowing this, they may choose to take themselves out instead. But whether they're Palestinians or Martians, the Americans deserve justice. They already paid the bill. Ask any New Yorker! Sleep time! Goodnight all. Lanman On Thursday 13 September 2001 12:17 am, Matt Greer wrote: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 23:07, you wrote: By the way, I'm not comparing this to college football. I'm sorry, but I was/am a bit frustrated at people's reactions to the Palestineans sp?. What they're doing is dispicable, but that doesn't mean we should want their deaths. I think these terrorists should be feeling the same way right about now. I don't think they thought this attack through well enough to ponder the response that will surely follow. Either they didn't really think of the consequences or they don't care. A war could be exactly what they wanted. Who knows. Watching the tower crumble to the ground sends chills down my spine everytime I see it. I don't think hardly anyone would have thought a plane crashing into the upper portion of a skyscraper could cause it to implode. A news channel tonight had an engineer on and even he was surprised. Matt -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
At 06:14 PM 9/12/01 +1000, you wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:03:37 +0800, Franki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the terrorists deserver american style justice... NOBODY deserves american style justice. I disagree. People hate us because we are successful. (microsoft comes to mind) I think that when the individuals responsible are determined that if they are in a country such as Afghanistan that would harbor and protect them then they the whole of Afghanistan Deserves whatever happens to them. Todays occurences are exactly why the USA has to be involved in every happening throughout the world. If you claim that the US is the only country who selectively chooses what they are involved in then you are blind to the workings of the world. I am doing a major in Government and International Relations as part of my university degree (along with Information Systems). The most important thing to learn is that you cannot impose Western liberal views upon those who haven't had a Western liberal upbringing. For example, if these guys are Arab, then you have to think like an Arab in order to understand them. Thinking like an Australian or an American doesn't help one bit. So if we are to think like Arabs then we should react like arabs? Go in and destroy the whole country and everyone in it regardless of what and why? The funny thing is that although we have what esentially undeniable evidence that it is an arab faction responsible it has not yet been proven for certain but everyone has already in their minds nailed Bin Laden, et al. Before I get labelled as being callous, let me add that I do _not_ condone such behaviour, and my heart goes out to the victims' families. It is important, however, to remain calm and level-headed in such a crisis. This is, understandably, _very_ difficult to do if you know someone who is involved. We should try to look objectively at the events, and not just get swept away by all the media coverage. Be callous, you should be. 10,000+ people killed in an hour!!! (not fact but conceivable) These people had no concern for anything or anyone. Few if any of the victims of this really have anything to do with the way the US supposedly polices the world. My thoughts are that the US needs to obliterate a few countries to get the point across that we will not tolerate this type behavior against ourselves or our allies. (assuming we actually have any) John W Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
its a way of swearing i supposed.. :P -- nathan From: Lanman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:46:36 -0400 Netstacking rights ?? Huh? Never heard that one before. On Wednesday 12 September 2001 12:36 am, you wrote: netstacking rights. i will defend my mother country, and the usa if i could lend a hand. -- nathan From: Lanman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:36:45 -0400 Hey Nathan, Don't forget that us Moose's are pretty pissed too! Eh? On Wednesday 12 September 2001 12:20 am, you wrote: this is only a start people, there is more to come... but yes these bastards made the wronb bear angry and they will pay, be sure of that i know we should not toss our morals aside but for the safety of democracy... we might have to -- nathan From: Lanman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:07:50 -0400 No Contest there! I agree! But I don't think the US Government thinks for one second that a terrorist gang pulled this one off by themselves. It was too co-ordinated, too organized. There was some serious money, and intel behind this. Don't be surprised to find out that some radical government was behind it. Either that, or I better cut WAY back on those Tom Clancy novels! By the way, I'm not comparing this to college football. Your Government WILL make the right decision, Matt. But, unless they come down hard on these jerks, it could happen again (God Forbid!). I happen to like Americans, and I wouldn't wish this on them or any other country either. But the best way to prevent repetition is to Drop The Hammer the first time. Obviously I mean dropping it only on those actually responsible. The US people have never been happy about Collateral Damage - of that I'm sure, and this time will be no different. But if I remember my history right (correct me if I'm wrong), one of the Japanese admirals commanding the attack on Pearl Harbor said it better than most. Something like - I believe we have awakened a sleeping monster . They had just finished their attack, and he was already thinking about changing his diapers! I think these terrorists should be feeling the same way right about now. I don't think they thought this attack through well enough to ponder the response that will surely follow. Lanman On Wednesday 12 September 2001 11:45 pm, you wrote: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 22:42, you wrote: Someone's in for a world of hurt! Right about now, Mass Religious Suicide is going to start looking pretty good to those idiots. You can bet that the U.S. is about to give them a major Wedgie. Then guess who'll be dancing and celebrating on the rooftops?? This isn't a college football rivalry. I hope our government makes the right decisions and minimizes the impact as much as possible as they bring the people who did this to justice. War on an entire nation is not the right response to the actions of a small, extreme group. Matt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Content-Type: text/plain; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Content-Type: text/plain; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Well you've just proven for all the list to see that you are victim to mis-representations and hearsay, otherwise you would not how dramatically untrue your facts are... Sridhar you are the very voice of in-experience. I have no desire to waste my time trying to convince or enlighten you, as to many of your fallacies (which are intermixed with grains of truth to make then seem correct, as things often are). Suffice it to say that you REALLY need to get out more buddy... In about 20 years I'd love to chat with you about this again and review how your views have changed with maturity. -JMS |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Sridhar |Dhanapalan |Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:07 AM |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK | | |On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 02:12:40 -0700, John W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | At 06:14 PM 9/12/01 +1000, you wrote: | On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:03:37 +0800, Franki |[EMAIL PROTECTED] | wrote: | I don't think the terrorists deserver american style justice... | | NOBODY deserves american style justice. | | I disagree. People hate us because we are successful. (microsoft | comes to | mind) | |Why did I expect this sort of response? This is so typically |American, the kind of thing that you are infused with in |American schools and from watching too many American movies. |No, I am not making this up, nor am I trying to be |deliberately anti-American. I have many American friends who |would agree with me. The USA is not the bastion of democracy |that it once was. Today it is the bastion of capitalism, which |was in turn the child of democracy. Why does the USA have the |highest crime rates, the lowest literacy rates, among the |lowest life expectancy rates, and the largest income gap |between rich and poor (with many going hungry) in the |industrialised world? Is this what you call successful? |Would you define success by how much you can screw over the |world's poor in order to fill your own pockets? I certainly don't. | |There is far greater justice and equality across the |Atlantic, in Western Europe. There is even greater equality in |some Asian nations, like Japan. | | I think that when the individuals responsible are determined that if | they | are in a country such as Afghanistan that would harbor and |protect them | then they the whole of Afghanistan Deserves whatever |happens to them. | Todays occurences are exactly why the USA has to be involved |in every | happening throughout the world. If you claim that the US is the only | country who selectively chooses what they are involved in |then you are | blind to the workings of the world. | | | I am doing a major in Government and International |Relations as part | of my university degree (along with Information Systems). The most | important thing to learn is that you cannot impose Western liberal | views upon those who haven't had | a Western liberal upbringing. For example, if these guys |are Arab, then | you have | to think like an Arab in order to understand them. Thinking like an |Australian | or an American doesn't help one bit. | | So if we are to think like Arabs then we should react like arabs? | Go in | and destroy the whole country and everyone in it |regardless of what and | why? The funny thing is that although we have what | esentially undeniable evidence that it is an arab faction |responsible it | has not yet been proven for certain but everyone has |already in their | minds nailed Bin Laden, et al. | | | | Before I get labelled as being callous, let me add that I do _not_ | condone | such | behaviour, and my heart goes out to the victims' families. |It is important, | however, to remain calm and level-headed in such a crisis. This is, | understandably, _very_ difficult to do if you know someone |who is involved. |We | should try to look objectively at the events, and not just |get swept | away | by all | the media coverage. | | | Be callous, you should be. 10,000+ people killed in an |hour!!! (not | fact | but conceivable) These people had no concern for anything or |anyone. Few if | any of the victims of this really have anything to do with |the way the US | supposedly polices the world. My thoughts are that the US needs to | obliterate a few countries to get the point across that we will not | tolerate this type behavior against ourselves or our allies. |(assuming we | actually have any) | |This is yet another stereotype that I had expected. Why are |Americans, on the whole, so belligerent? Serving a military |career appears to be the best way to get into government in |the USA. With presidents like Eisenhower (who was a |general) and Bush (Snr, who held a high position in the CIA), |it is no surprise that US foreign policy has been so |confrontational during the past fifty years. What scares me |most
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
The On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 04:40, you wrote: Why is it that terrorists always attack you Americans; you do know that Canada has yet to be attacked by terrorists... Truly, you are the Typical Ugly Canadian, spouting how we're much better liked around the world than our neighbours in the States. Kid, if you had ever travelled around you would know that many people from many countries-- do not draw any difference between Canadians and Americans. For the matter of never being terrorized, I beg to differ. We lost some 400-500 souls when two bombs were planted on different CP Air planes some twenty years ago. To come out with any message suggesting yesterdays events were 'just desserts' is to demonstrate not only a lack of compassion but just a lack of basic human-ness. It puts you closer to the people that flew those planes than to me. Richie de Almeida Brampton, CANADA Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 08:48:57 -0400, Jose M. Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well you've just proven for all the list to see that you are victim to mis-representations and hearsay, otherwise you would not how dramatically untrue your facts are... Umm... Have you actually read or seen what's _really_ going on? By this, I mean from _credible_ sources like good historians and theorists (e.g. Wade, Johnson, Vogel, etc.), not the mass-media, which is notorious for its oversimplification of facts. It appears that YOU are the victim of mis-representations and hearsay. How can you expect to be truly objective when you _live_ in the country? This is simply impossible, because of factors like emotional attachments, habits and teachings (e.g. from schools and the media). The same would go for any nation that one is attached to. I don't expect to be able to be objective about my country, because I like it. Sridhar you are the very voice of in-experience. Not so. Your approach is very un-scientific indeed. If you wrote an academic report using your line of argument, it would probably be thrown out. I have no desire to waste my time trying to convince or enlighten you, as to many of your fallacies (which are intermixed with grains of truth to make then seem correct, as things often are). What fallacies? You obviously didn't read my post very thoroughly, or you are grossly misinformed, if you think there are fallacies. I substantiated my arguments with reason and fact. My comments about what is typically American were deliberately satirical. Perhaps you misinterpreted that, since sitire doesn't transfer well in writing. Suffice it to say that you REALLY need to get out more buddy... In about 20 years I'd love to chat with you about this again and review how your views have changed with maturity. Your inflexibility and lack of receptibility to different ideas and viewpoints is worrisome. If you read academic political papers over the years, you will notice how attitudes and views change with time, as situations change and new evidence and theories come to light. The world is ever-changing, not static. You need to try to evolve with this or risk falling behind and being cast aside as an old relic. Many older people I meet tend to be Cold Warriors, that is those who are stuck in the old Cold War mentality that communism is all evil and that the USA is the bastion of world democracy and hence is all good. Could you be one of those Cold Warriors, Jose? Here's a wake-up call: nothing is perfect. Since the end of the Cold War, people have been noticing the widening cracks in the armour of the Anglo-American neoliberal system, which for so long had remained stable due to the constant communist threat. Just over a decade ago, the US governmental and economic system was under heavy attack from academics and economists. Conversely, the Japanese model was hailed as the way of the future. Fast-forward to today, and many people would argue the opposite. Times change, and so should you. Can you teach an old dog new tricks? -JMS |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Sridhar |Dhanapalan |Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:07 AM |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK | | |On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 02:12:40 -0700, John W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | At 06:14 PM 9/12/01 +1000, you wrote: | On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:03:37 +0800, Franki |[EMAIL PROTECTED] | wrote: | I don't think the terrorists deserver american style justice... | | NOBODY deserves american style justice. | | I disagree. People hate us because we are successful. (microsoft | comes to | mind) | |Why did I expect this sort of response? This is so typically |American, the kind of thing that you are infused with in |American schools and from watching too many American movies. |No, I am not making this up, nor am I trying to be |deliberately anti-American. I have many American friends who |would agree with me. The USA is not the bastion of democracy |that it once was. Today it is the bastion of capitalism, which |was in turn the child of democracy. Why does the USA have the |highest crime rates, the lowest literacy rates, among the |lowest life expectancy rates, and the largest income gap |between rich and poor (with many going hungry) in the |industrialised world? Is this what you call successful? |Would you define success by how much you can screw over the |world's poor in order to fill your own pockets? I certainly don't. | |There is far greater justice and equality across the |Atlantic, in Western Europe. There is even greater equality in |some Asian nations, like Japan. | | I think that when the individuals responsible are determined that if | they | are in a country such as Afghanistan that would harbor and |protect them | then they the whole of Afghanistan Deserves
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:16:14 +0200, civileme [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 12 September 2001 15:38, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 08:48:57 -0400, Jose M. Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sridhar, my friend, Please please please don't expect rational argument or openness to different POV from people in shock. You do have some very valid, solid, points. And they have changed not one iota from the time of the Third IndoChina War, wherein we learned that to American Oil Companies, on ocean of offshore oil was really worth an ocean of blood. I quote American because the ownership is multinational though they effectuate their will through the American government. The appearance has changed, since it is no longer in vogue to keep the world safe from communism, but the driving forces are more determinist than leader-based. I am annoyed by greed in all its manifestations, as you appear to be, whether it is the predatory tactics of a very rich corporation, or the actions of a government that purports to be the scion of democracy and freedom. I am annoyed that technological advances are suppressed in the name of profit, and I know your point of view well. I think mine may well enclose yours, though it is more philosophical than governmental. It is often useful to believe that each point of view has an element of the truth, and to play a mental game to combine them so that they are reconciled, no matter how improbable the outcome. Often this is closer to the truth, as was taught in the old legend of three blind men examining an elephant. Anyway, don't expect much respoonse on the newbie list to your point of view. People in shock tend to stand and defend their positions. Best Wishes, Civileme Civileme, You are absolutely right. I guess I really struck a nerve here when all I was trying to do was to place this into a world context in order to make people realise that the causes for this are not anywhere near as simple as the media and the US government likes to make it seem. As I said before, I had no intention of diminishing the plight of the victims or their families. They have my deepest sympathy. Anyway, I shall wrap it up there. Thanks, Sridhar. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Well spoken, but humans by nature are violent and savage animals unfortunately. On Wednesday 12 September 2001 06:06 am, so spoke Sridhar Dhanapalan: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
God are you full of yourself... I'm quite sure that this will, as is normal for most people, lead to a very thoughtful and even tempered adult. For the moment though it really sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black. There is nothing I could do to change your mind on those points you have wrong, that you are citing from here-say. Nor do I want or need to, as experience is a MUCH better teacher. I have read in proper academic articles and journals, U-huh, this confirms my original statement. -JMS Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Wednesday 12 September 2001 00:20, you had thoughts to the concept of: this is only a start people, there is more to come... but yes these bastards made the wronb bear angry and they will pay, be sure of that i know we should not toss our morals aside but for the safety of democracy... we might have to Nope, the moral high ground MUST be where a battle is fought from, other wise the winner of the military battle will have lost what the war was over. we do not have to fight for God, or Democracy, we DO have to fight for the right to live. lets be honest tho, we in the USA do NOT have democracy, heck it does not even qualify as a republic democracy, our President was appointed by the court. His Father was head of the CIA during VietNam (ever see Air America with Mel Gibson?, research Southern Air, (still in existance and flying C130 to So. America from Miami) Flying Tigers (merged with Fed-Ex to create fed-ex air), Evergreen air, and see where they got thier money to buy the planes and insurance) and might well be one of the people the world court would like to try for crimes against humanity, maybe even one of the reasons the US will not sign the treaty. If we ever do get democracy again, I might calm down. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Nope I won't let you wrap it up, just because It bugs me to hear anyone say we have an elected president in the USA. Heck, let us not forget he was appointed, not elected, and let's not ever forget it was his father that ran the CIA during the Vietnam war, as well as being an vice director of the CIA when the Kennedys and M.L.King were killed. next time someone asks if you want to live in Russia, ask them if they think you like the cold, and then ask them if the want to live in Somolla. it is about as relevant. Anyway, I shall wrap it up there. Thanks, Sridhar. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Mr. Dhanapalan: I have read most if not all of your posts on this topic, and disagree with the vast bulk of what you say. The post to which I am responding, however, reflects such a far too short-sighted view of history that the temptation to respond is irresistible. On Wednesday 12 September 2001 06:38 am, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: [snip] Umm... Have you actually read or seen what's _really_ going on? By this, I mean from _credible_ sources like good historians and theorists (e.g. Wade, Johnson, Vogel, etc.), not the mass-media, which is notorious for its oversimplification of facts. It appears that YOU are the victim of mis-representations and hearsay. How can you expect to be truly objective when you _live_ in the country? This is simply impossible, because of factors like emotional attachments, habits and teachings (e.g. from schools and the media). The same would go for any nation that one is attached to. I don't expect to be able to be objective about my country, because I like it. No one is truly objective. Everyone has biases that affect their thoughts and reasoning. Is a non-resident of the US who hates the US necessarily more unbiased than a US resident who loves his country? No, not necessarily. Your posts reflect your biases. This post no doubt reflects mine. The fact that I have biases (or that the poster to whom you were replying above has biases) does not inevitably mean that the point of view I express is wrong, that the point of view the previous poster expressed is wrong, or that your point of view is incorrect. [snip] Not so. Your approach is very un-scientific indeed. [snip] Any analysis of historic trends, causes, and effects is by its very nature un-scientific because any such analysis ultimately amounts to an expression of the analyst's opinion. Your posts are full of subjective, qualitative views about whether the US is good or bad, how much harm it has caused, and the like. Those opinions, with which I disagree with strongly, may be honestly held, but they remain un-scientific opinions. [snip] Your inflexibility and lack of receptibility to different ideas and viewpoints is worrisome. If you read academic political papers over the years, you will notice how attitudes and views change with time, as situations change and new evidence and theories come to light. The world is ever-changing, not static. You need to try to evolve with this or risk falling behind and being cast aside as an old relic. Many older people I meet tend to be Cold Warriors, that is those who are stuck in the old Cold War mentality that communism is all evil and that the USA is the bastion of world democracy and hence is all good. Could you be one of those Cold Warriors, Jose? Here's a wake-up call: nothing is perfect. Since the end of the Cold War, people have been noticing the widening cracks in the armour of the Anglo-American neoliberal system, which for so long had remained stable due to the constant communist threat. You seem to imply that one can read academic political papers and that those papers somehow establish the right answer about whether the US is good or bad, and that events predating the Cold War are now irrelevant to a qualitative evaluation of the US. I think you are clearly wrong on both points. First, academic political papers reflect nothing more than the opinions of their authors. As a colleague of mine likes to say opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one. I daresay that, if I wanted to spend the time, I could find academic papers that would support almost any view, even views that are later shown to be demonstrably wrong. After all, the head of the US Patent Office in the early 1900s expressed the view that everything that could be invented had by that time already been invented, and Bill Gates thought that 64k (not 64m) of memory ought to be enough for anyone. Second, I don't think any reasoned, or reasonable, evaluation of the US's conduct in the past several decades can be made without considering the forces that dictated and drove US foreign policy both before and during that time. You are absolutely right that the US government made some horribly bad decisions about who to back in a number of countries over the last several decades. In some cases, I believe the US government was simply fooled by those they ultimately backed. After all, when Castro displaced the prior government in Cuba, he was initially hailed as a hero in the US. When he made known his preference for what he called Communism, the US views changed dramatically. In any event, you are also absolutely correct that the US sometimes backed very bad people simply because the US thought it would be helpful in the global struggle with Communism. But I think you ought to consider how US views on Communism were formed, and why the US regarded resisting its spread as imperative and for the greater global good. By the
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
my first thought was that they had played a little too much with M$flight sim, since when I get bored with it I too fly into the wtc to crash and get out of the game. a few too many hours with M$ Flight sim, and they would not have that much trouble spotting the target and knowing how to fly (not land or takeoff mind you) a passenger Jet. I disagree. People hate us because we are successful. (microsoft comes to mind) My thoughts are that the US needs to obliterate a few countries to get the point across that we will not tolerate this type behavior against ourselves or our allies. (assuming we actually have any) and that sure did end the problem with Iraq didn't it? no? you mean Ben-Laden is mad that we did not get out of Sudi-Arabia after we wooped ass on Iraq (and isn't it intersting that IRQ problems have the same constanates and IRaQ? and most the hardware problem I run inot are cuased by IRQs? is co-inky-dink? I think not. This is yet another stereotype that I had expected. Why are Americans, on the whole, so belligerent? Serving a military career appears to be the best way to get into government in the USA. With presidents like Eisenhower (who was a general) and Bush (Snr, who held a high position in the CIA), it is no surprise that US foreign policy has been so confrontational during the past fifty years. What scares me most is that people actually _vote_ for these guys and not for somebody who is more responsible. I am being a realist here. If world leaders were as emotional as you are here we would have wiped each other out through a global war. I said that I sympathise with the victims' families, and that I don't condone such violence. I stand by that. However, is 10,000 dead people really that many, when you take into account that US foreign policy is responsible for the suffering and deaths of many millions worldwide? Read my other posts in this thread for details on this. Do you really believe that you can fight fire with fire? Violence begets violence, and the first to suffer are the innocent. This has been seen time and time again in wars worldwide, including the two world wars, the Korean War, the Third Indochinese War (often called the Vietnam War), Iraq and the Balkans wars. In today's age of guerilla warfare, drug trafficking and terrorism, the distinction between soldier and innocent has blurred to the stage where traditional military strategy does not work, unless you wish to massacre entire villages (as American troops have done in Korea and Vietnam). We need to tackle the _root_ of the problem. The main root of crime is poor education and poverty. Therefore the best way to tackle crime is to improve education and the standard of living. Similarly, the root of these bombings is US allowance and support of practices which lead to poverty and brutal, authoritarian rule. The US government (not necessarily the people) supposedly has ideals of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, but only for their own people. They couldn't care less about the world's underprivileged, because exploiting them can lead to the pursuit of happiness for Americans. The United States government gives about 1% of its annual budget as foreign aid, far lower than any other industrialised nation, despite it having the largest economy in the world. The Bill and Belinda Gates foundation donated more money towards world health issues in 2000 than did the US government. The hallmark of over-capitalism is massive inequity, and we are seeing this occur both within and outside the USA. Many Americans appear to be afraid of mentioning that point, despite the fact that their children cannot receive a decent education in government schools. I read recently that the education system in a particular state (I forget which one, I think it started with P) was bankrupt, and at the same time Microsoft was auditing them for software licenses. Of course, with such a cash-strapped system, they had been forced to pirate software, and now they owe millions to M$. I shall now expect to be labelled as a communist simply because I am concerned for my fellow human beings :-) Note that while I'm focussing on the USA here (because of the terrorist attacks), this hardly means that other nations have a clean sheet. On the contrary, all of the advanced democracies (including my own country, Australia) are to blame, but the USA is by far the worst of a bad bunch. If you wish to know where I'm coming from, I'm writing with several years of geography, economics, government and international relations training under my belt. There is far more to this than the Anglo-American neoliberal standpoint (which is what they usually teach you in schools in nations like the US and Australia), and it is important to try to approach the problem from different angles in order to understand it properly. I would hardly call myself an expert, but I feel that I know
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:27:55 -0400, Jose M. Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I said, you are the consummate voice of inexperience and youth... In these matters, predetermined views and experience can be more of a hindrance than a help. I was given a standard Western neoliberal education at school. However, when I started doing government and international relations, I found that these views did not fit in well at all with non-Western nations (i.e. most of the world). I had to un-learn these neoliberal teachings in order to understand different cultures and societies (kind of like how a newbie should un-learn their Windows knowledge if they want to leant GNU/Linux well) and to look at them objectively (i.e. not look at them through a Western lens, which is a _very_ easy trap to fall into). Consequently, I gained new understanding and knowledge on most of the world (something which neoliberal teachings _cannot_ do), and acquired fresh perspectives on what I had learnt previously. There _is_ more than one way to look at things, and it is only when you can do this that you can really _understand_ something (I'm not saying that I truly understand everything, but I tend to do so better than most people, because of this). The same applies here. As an American, who is emotionally attached to his country and who has spent a long period in the neoliberal tradition, you have been affected in some way (either consciously or even subconsciously) by this incident. At this moment of time, at least, it is difficult for you to be objective about things. The general attitude of Americans on online fora such as this list is one of shock, anger and vengeance. This is perfectly understandable, given the circumstances. However, one cannot keep one's head in the sand for too long. There is almost _never_ one view. One of the first things you learn when you study the social sciences is that monocausal factors are very rare indeed. What are you about 22-26? Nineteen :-) Age obviously is not everything. The best international relations lecturer I ever had is still in her twenties, and she knows a _lot_ (she's got a phD, written a few books, etc.). As I mentioned above, too much experience in a field such as this can put you at risk of becoming a dinosaur, unless you evolve and adapt that experience to changing times and circumstances. This happens all the time amongst theorists. They may be fashionable for a while, and eventually they fall out of favour. Nevertheless, some continue writing in support of their original ideas, and consequently their peers basically ignore them. Give it a few years and you will find out which of your preconceptions are right and wrong. The same could go for anyone, including yourself. At least I backed my arguments with evidence. I am currently writing a research report on a mildly similar topic, and so I have a good idea of what I am talking about (and probably explains why I have gotten a little carried away with this thread). I have based my arguments on what I have read in proper academic articles and journals, not on what I read in USA Today or see on CNN. On the other hand, you offer no evidence or proof (or even any real arguments, for that matter), so at present to me it looks like you're arguing simply for the sake of arguing, perhaps simply to make yourself look superior when in fact you have nothing. Of course, I could be totally wrong, and I invite you to prove me wrong. I'd love to chat with the older and wiser version of yourself then. You'll be far more interesting. I would like that. Perhaps you can offer an actual argument in the future. -JMS |-Original Message- |From: Sridhar Dhanapalan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] |Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:38 AM |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK | | |On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 08:48:57 -0400, Jose M. Sanchez |[EMAIL PROTECTED] |wrote: | | Well you've just proven for all the list to see that you are |victim to | mis-representations and hearsay, otherwise you would not how | dramatically untrue your facts are... | -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Wednesday 12 September 2001 15:38, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 08:48:57 -0400, Jose M. Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sridhar, my friend, Please please please don't expect rational argument or openness to different POV from people in shock. You do have some very valid, solid, points. And they have changed not one iota from the time of the Third IndoChina War, wherein we learned that to American Oil Companies, on ocean of offshore oil was really worth an ocean of blood. I quote American because the ownership is multinational though they effectuate their will through the American government. The appearance has changed, since it is no longer in vogue to keep the world safe from communism, but the driving forces are more determinist than leader-based. I am annoyed by greed in all its manifestations, as you appear to be, whether it is the predatory tactics of a very rich corporation, or the actions of a government that purports to be the scion of democracy and freedom. I am annoyed that technological advances are suppressed in the name of profit, and I know your point of view well. I think mine may well enclose yours, though it is more philosophical than governmental. It is often useful to believe that each point of view has an element of the truth, and to play a mental game to combine them so that they are reconciled, no matter how improbable the outcome. Often this is closer to the truth, as was taught in the old legend of three blind men examining an elephant. Anyway, don't expect much respoonse on the newbie list to your point of view. People in shock tend to stand and defend their positions. Best Wishes, Civileme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Jose M. Sanchez wrote: God are you full of yourself... Like civileme said previously (I think it was him), both sides have a kernel of truth in them. He (Sridhar) is not entirely off-base. What Americans percieve as an act of evil might very well be considered a blow against evil by many Muslims, much like the Crusades were by the Christians of the Middle Ages. It's pretty ridiculous the way people can justify the atrocities they commit as being in the name of their God (I'm not saying that is definitely the case here, but it is a possiblity). However, I have to agree that his attitude leaves something to be desired. But it's something that every teenager goes through. I know I've been there, thinking I am somehow more knowledgeable than most everyone else just because I learned something new. In a few years, real world experience will give him a wake-up call, and he'll realize that, as he becomes older and wiser, just how much he doesn't know. And I mean beyond just saying, I don't claim to know everything, which is absolutely meaningless, especially when immediately followed by, but I know more than most people. Jesse -- !! Jesse C. Chang [EMAIL PROTECTED] [___] `|' I have the simplest tastes. I am always /|\ satisfied with the best. -- Oscar Wilde Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On a couple of notes here, as an American who has served in the Military, and been in Spec. Forces, and studied a little current events and history, I wonder if we could appear to have learned something from WW1 and WW2, in that the way to _END_ (regardless of the military outcome) the war is to give hope and a future to those whom considered you the enemy. Look at the marshal plan and what it did for Europe after WW2. Do you believe the proud German people would have not started another war in 20 years if they did not recognize that they had more hope with commerce than bullets? I wish we had the sense to help the common folks in the countries that will be attacked BEFORE we have to attack them. Making a peace that would last with the same people whom are still upset about the crusades would not be _easy_, but it might be worthwhile. The real problem (as I see it) is that they might have to agree that I have as much right to the air to breath as they do. On the same but slightly different note, if MY genocide is the only thing YOUR religion will allow for ME, then where do I draw the line as far as YOUR genocide? If you want to kill me, you are gonna have a bloody mess on your hands before one of us is dead, and what happens afterwards with both the bodies? I see a lot of room for comparison between the Vikings in the first thousand years AD and these terrorists. How hard is it to fight a foe that believes that by dyeing in order to kill you they get to go to heaven? War on any Nation that believes that my children do not have the right to exist, and is willing to raise and wage war in order to prevent my children from living and sharing the air, is not only justified, it may be the only choice other than laying down and dyeing. The real question at some point becomes, at what point do we acknowledge that we only have those choices. I have never wished to killsomeone, but even if the war has questionable beginings, (and I don't think to many questions will be asked by history any more than we asked if we were correct to battle Japan in WW2) I would not hasitate to kill anyone that I believed intend to harm myself or my family. I would LOVE to see (and the chance of this happening are damn slim) Pres. Bush decide to back the world court and allow American and any other head of state to be tried for war crimes. I am pretty sure that might give the enemy a chance to show themselves, and release some frustrations on the proper people in an lawfull and orderly fashion, and not on people considered to be innocent. I was upset by the Afgan Gov. statement warning the US Gov that if INNOCENT AND SINLESS people are killed, more suicide bombings will occur. I am pretty sure that some innocent and sinnless peple (as sinless anyway) were killed. I do agree that if you protect the people whom want to kill me, you might be protecting people whom you do not really have the ability to protect. in fact, by my standards, if someone is shooting at me, and hidding behind you, and you say, do not shoot in my direction, because the person behind me trying to kill you is a friend of My Gods, then if you do not denounce HIS right to kill me, I may as well send you both to meet your God. I want peace as much as anyone, and have more disrespect for my countries Goverment than most ex-GIs and I have been out of the Military for 20 some years, but if I can not help you to respect me and allow me my peace, then I will treat you as equal to how you treat me. If I am not allowed life, then neither are you. No Person should be more important or less allowed life and joy than any other. One Of the greatest problems I am aware of in America, and the point of MY hositilty towards my own contry is that I FIRMLY believe that a persons right to joy should trump a corporations right to profits, and in America, not only have our Courts and Goverments decided that profit is MUCH more important than indivduales right to joy, but we have made laws that prevent a corporation form being put out of business, even if the intentally kill people for the sake of profit, and even if the profit (after expensises including exec. salary) is miniscule and not enough to compensate for the life taken. WE must have accountablility even in OUR leaders. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
We Canadians have had terrorist attacks ...FLQ in Quebec province ..Air India bombing perhaps perpetrated by misguided people from my own city and community! Art Why is it that terrorists always attack you Americans; you do know that Canada has yet to be attacked by terrorists... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
I apolagise for accidentilly posting this to this list, as it doesn't belong here. On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:13, you wrote: Go and stick your head back up the moose' backside where it obviously came from. The USA is not the only country that suffers from terrorist attacks, but they are the most powerful nation in the world and does not stand for the schoolyard bullying tactics from these extremist groups. The publicity from these attacks is what is sort. Get of your soap box and at least show a bit of sympathy for all the innocent victims. How would you feel if one of your family were involved? The On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 04:40, you wrote: Why is it that terrorists always attack you Americans; you do know that Canada has yet to be attacked by terrorists...of course we -- Canada -- didn't go and bomb Afghanastan -- I know I spelled that wrong -- so When? they have no reason to attack us?! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: -- David Registered Linux User #200514 No electrons were harmed in the production of this e-mail. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Let me state that as a Canadian I am horrfied by what I see and want to see these criminals bought to justice. My prayers and my familoes prayers go out to the victims. Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Albert Einstein Maurice Vold Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer Corporate Information Services City of Saskatoon Work Web Page: http://www.city.saskatoon.sk.ca Family Web Page: http://communities.msn.ca/CathieMauriceandJulianna/homepage Work Phone: 306-975-8145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David Park Sent: September 11, 2001 5:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK Go and stick your head back up the moose' backside where it obviously came from. The USA is not the only country that suffers from terrorist attacks, but they are the most powerful nation in the world and does not stand for the schoolyard bullying tactics from these extremist groups. The publicity from these attacks is what is sort. Get of your soap box and at least show a bit of sympathy for all the innocent victims. How would you feel if one of your family were involved? The On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 04:40, you wrote: Why is it that terrorists always attack you Americans; you do know that Canada has yet to be attacked by terrorists...of course we -- Canada -- didn't go and bomb Afghanastan -- I know I spelled that wrong -- so When? they have no reason to attack us?! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Tuesday 11 September 2001 06:56 pm, Art Rowe escribió: We Canadians have had terrorist attacks ...FLQ in Quebec province ..Air India bombing perhaps perpetrated by misguided people from my own city and community! Attacks by misguided cowardly punk assholes affects the whole world, specially those that deserve it least. -- Tom Brinkman Galveston Bay Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Tuesday 11 September 2001 07:15 pm, Franki escribió: There were alot of IT companies based in those towers, and some banks, this could effect the world ecomomy... especially if the US goes into a rescesion because of it... they were on the brink already... rgds frank My Thoughts had nothin to do with money, any denomination. The world runs on people and their thoughts, not just their produce materially. So I say again. Attacks by misguided cowardly punk assholes affects the whole world, specially those that deserve it least. Even this world's most unfortunate children took a big hit today. Those in the USA, and specially those suported worldwide by http://www.christianchildrensfund.org/ I doubt the zealot cowardly asshole mass murders who acted today were thinkin about anybody but themselves, and what they want. They left many chilren dead, or without parents ... or support. As much as I feel for today's victims, the children of the world are in greater need. Please help if you can God bless -- Tom Brinkman Galveston Bay On Tuesday 11 September 2001 06:56 pm, Art Rowe escribió: We Canadians have had terrorist attacks ...FLQ in Quebec province ..Air India bombing perhaps perpetrated by misguided people from my own city and community! Attacks by misguided cowardly punk assholes affects the whole world, specially those that deserve it least. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
I don't wish to prolong the existance of this topic on my favorite list, but I'd like to say a couple of things. David, you're absolutely right. This moron ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) doesn't know what he's talking about. So much of Canada's security revolves around our relationship with the U.S., and many Canadians (with the exception of a few terrorist cells) are hoping for the best, and offering prayers to the victims in New York and Washington. Anyone who thinks like this twit shold consider leaving,...very soon. While I respect his right to have an opinion, most of us are not so psychopathic as to agree with him. And by the way Mr. Clinuxc, we have been victim's of terrorist attacks. Can you say FLQ?? You idiot! Before you start offering an opinion, how's about checking your facts?? With countrymen like you, who needs enemas! I'm done. Lanman On Tuesday 11 September 2001 07:43 pm, you wrote: Go and stick your head back up the moose' backside where it obviously came from. The USA is not the only country that suffers from terrorist attacks, but they are the most powerful nation in the world and does not stand for the schoolyard bullying tactics from these extremist groups. The publicity from these attacks is what is sort. Get of your soap box and at least show a bit of sympathy for all the innocent victims. How would you feel if one of your family were involved? The On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 04:40, you wrote: Why is it that terrorists always attack you Americans; you do know that Canada has yet to be attacked by terrorists...of course we -- Canada -- didn't go and bomb Afghanastan -- I know I spelled that wrong -- so When? they have no reason to attack us?! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Good one Tom. Rip him a new one. This guy's a - place index finger and thumb at right angles to one another against forehead ! Lanman On Tuesday 11 September 2001 08:05 pm, you wrote: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 06:56 pm, Art Rowe escribió: We Canadians have had terrorist attacks ...FLQ in Quebec province ..Air India bombing perhaps perpetrated by misguided people from my own city and community! Attacks by misguided cowardly punk assholes affects the whole world, specially those that deserve it least. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Tom; once again, a very good point or two! First, I think that we should remember that the IT community probably lost many colleagues today, and that also hits home. Regardless of their O/S of choice, we're all people of a similar mind. We share a natural curiosity, interest in learning, and passion in our craft. I believe that the IT professionals working in the World Trade Center are (were?) probably some of the world's best! I hadn't thought about it from that angle Tom. Thanks! Sigh! Now I feel even worse about this whole mess! But in the long run, I think the terrorists just Shot themselves in the foot, because they just gave the U.S. Carte Blanche. A TV announcer on CNN ( I think ), said today, that this tragedy was this generations' Pearl Harbor, and we all know what happened with that one. This time, someone really Screwed the Pooch ! Notice how all the Allied Powers AND Germany are all denouncing the attacks today? Someone's in for a world of hurt! Right about now, Mass Religious Suicide is going to start looking pretty good to those idiots. You can bet that the U.S. is about to give them a major Wedgie. Then guess who'll be dancing and celebrating on the rooftops?? Lanman On Tuesday 11 September 2001 09:08 pm, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 07:15 pm, Franki escribió: There were alot of IT companies based in those towers, and some banks, this could effect the world ecomomy... especially if the US goes into a rescesion because of it... they were on the brink already... rgds frank My Thoughts had nothin to do with money, any denomination. The world runs on people and their thoughts, not just their produce materially. So I say again. Attacks by misguided cowardly punk assholes affects the whole world, specially those that deserve it least. Even this world's most unfortunate children took a big hit today. Those in the USA, and specially those suported worldwide by http://www.christianchildrensfund.org/ I doubt the zealot cowardly asshole mass murders who acted today were thinkin about anybody but themselves, and what they want. They left many chilren dead, or without parents ... or support. As much as I feel for today's victims, the children of the world are in greater need. Please help if you can God bless Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Tuesday 11 September 2001 22:42, you wrote: Someone's in for a world of hurt! Right about now, Mass Religious Suicide is going to start looking pretty good to those idiots. You can bet that the U.S. is about to give them a major Wedgie. Then guess who'll be dancing and celebrating on the rooftops?? This isn't a college football rivalry. I hope our government makes the right decisions and minimizes the impact as much as possible as they bring the people who did this to justice. War on an entire nation is not the right response to the actions of a small, extreme group. Matt Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
we might as well face it... a drastic action has to be taken.. and they will fight dirty and hide behind childeren, and women, and the old will we fight thru that? -- nathan From: Matt Greer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:45:07 -0500 On Tuesday 11 September 2001 22:42, you wrote: Someone's in for a world of hurt! Right about now, Mass Religious Suicide is going to start looking pretty good to those idiots. You can bet that the U.S. is about to give them a major Wedgie. Then guess who'll be dancing and celebrating on the rooftops?? This isn't a college football rivalry. I hope our government makes the right decisions and minimizes the impact as much as possible as they bring the people who did this to justice. War on an entire nation is not the right response to the actions of a small, extreme group. Matt Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Tuesday 11 September 2001 22:51, you wrote: we might as well face it... a drastic action has to be taken.. and they will fight dirty and hide behind childeren, and women, and the old will we fight thru that? Bush said anyone harboring the suspects is considered equally as guilty, and I can agree with that. But if people truly have nothing to do with this, then their lives should be spared at all costs. Matt Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Netstacking rights ?? Huh? Never heard that one before. On Wednesday 12 September 2001 12:36 am, you wrote: netstacking rights. i will defend my mother country, and the usa if i could lend a hand. -- nathan From: Lanman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:36:45 -0400 Hey Nathan, Don't forget that us Moose's are pretty pissed too! Eh? On Wednesday 12 September 2001 12:20 am, you wrote: this is only a start people, there is more to come... but yes these bastards made the wronb bear angry and they will pay, be sure of that i know we should not toss our morals aside but for the safety of democracy... we might have to -- nathan From: Lanman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:07:50 -0400 No Contest there! I agree! But I don't think the US Government thinks for one second that a terrorist gang pulled this one off by themselves. It was too co-ordinated, too organized. There was some serious money, and intel behind this. Don't be surprised to find out that some radical government was behind it. Either that, or I better cut WAY back on those Tom Clancy novels! By the way, I'm not comparing this to college football. Your Government WILL make the right decision, Matt. But, unless they come down hard on these jerks, it could happen again (God Forbid!). I happen to like Americans, and I wouldn't wish this on them or any other country either. But the best way to prevent repetition is to Drop The Hammer the first time. Obviously I mean dropping it only on those actually responsible. The US people have never been happy about Collateral Damage - of that I'm sure, and this time will be no different. But if I remember my history right (correct me if I'm wrong), one of the Japanese admirals commanding the attack on Pearl Harbor said it better than most. Something like - I believe we have awakened a sleeping monster . They had just finished their attack, and he was already thinking about changing his diapers! I think these terrorists should be feeling the same way right about now. I don't think they thought this attack through well enough to ponder the response that will surely follow. Lanman On Wednesday 12 September 2001 11:45 pm, you wrote: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 22:42, you wrote: Someone's in for a world of hurt! Right about now, Mass Religious Suicide is going to start looking pretty good to those idiots. You can bet that the U.S. is about to give them a major Wedgie. Then guess who'll be dancing and celebrating on the rooftops?? This isn't a college football rivalry. I hope our government makes the right decisions and minimizes the impact as much as possible as they bring the people who did this to justice. War on an entire nation is not the right response to the actions of a small, extreme group. Matt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Content-Type: text/plain; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Content-Type: text/plain; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Don't bet on it, if they went through so much effort as to plan an attack of this size and complexity,,, (ie training terrorists to fly very complex large airplanes like 767's and 757's got them in sequence and full of fuel,) do you think that they would leave a trail??? the FBI is already chasing somone they found on the passenger manefest,,, I bet its a false lead or a dead end. (you don't book a known terrorist onto a plane and use his real name if you are planing to hijack it... unless its a false lead...) It may even be a country that is a US ally, say for example Israel, the US doesn't give them enough help fighting the palestines (in their mind), so what better way to make the US wipe them out then to make the US think it was done by the palestines... I am not saying thats the case, and I really doubt it is... but it goes to show my point that there are more then two possible suspects... The only real hope I think is the black box's and the phone calls from the planes passangers to relies and emergency services. rgds Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Lanman Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2001 11:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tom Brinkman Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK Tom; once again, a very good point or two! First, I think that we should remember that the IT community probably lost many colleagues today, and that also hits home. Regardless of their O/S of choice, we're all people of a similar mind. We share a natural curiosity, interest in learning, and passion in our craft. I believe that the IT professionals working in the World Trade Center are (were?) probably some of the world's best! I hadn't thought about it from that angle Tom. Thanks! Sigh! Now I feel even worse about this whole mess! But in the long run, I think the terrorists just Shot themselves in the foot, because they just gave the U.S. Carte Blanche. A TV announcer on CNN ( I think ), said today, that this tragedy was this generations' Pearl Harbor, and we all know what happened with that one. This time, someone really Screwed the Pooch ! Notice how all the Allied Powers AND Germany are all denouncing the attacks today? Someone's in for a world of hurt! Right about now, Mass Religious Suicide is going to start looking pretty good to those idiots. You can bet that the U.S. is about to give them a major Wedgie. Then guess who'll be dancing and celebrating on the rooftops?? Lanman On Tuesday 11 September 2001 09:08 pm, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 07:15 pm, Franki escribió: There were alot of IT companies based in those towers, and some banks, this could effect the world ecomomy... especially if the US goes into a rescesion because of it... they were on the brink already... rgds frank My Thoughts had nothin to do with money, any denomination. The world runs on people and their thoughts, not just their produce materially. So I say again. Attacks by misguided cowardly punk assholes affects the whole world, specially those that deserve it least. Even this world's most unfortunate children took a big hit today. Those in the USA, and specially those suported worldwide by http://www.christianchildrensfund.org/ I doubt the zealot cowardly asshole mass murders who acted today were thinkin about anybody but themselves, and what they want. They left many chilren dead, or without parents ... or support. As much as I feel for today's victims, the children of the world are in greater need. Please help if you can God bless Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
The Fbi has already took possession of a car with virgina plates and what looks like luggage from logan airport here in Boston. On Wednesday 12 September 2001 00:41, Franki wrote: Don't bet on it, if they went through so much effort as to plan an attack of this size and complexity,,, (ie training terrorists to fly very complex large airplanes like 767's and 757's got them in sequence and full of fuel,) do you think that they would leave a trail??? the FBI is already chasing somone they found on the passenger manefest,,, I bet its a false lead or a dead end. (you don't book a known terrorist onto a plane and use his real name if you are planing to hijack it... unless its a false lead...) It may even be a country that is a US ally, say for example Israel, the US doesn't give them enough help fighting the palestines (in their mind), so what better way to make the US wipe them out then to make the US think it was done by the palestines... I am not saying thats the case, and I really doubt it is... but it goes to show my point that there are more then two possible suspects... The only real hope I think is the black box's and the phone calls from the planes passangers to relies and emergency services. rgds Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Lanman Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2001 11:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tom Brinkman Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK Tom; once again, a very good point or two! First, I think that we should remember that the IT community probably lost many colleagues today, and that also hits home. Regardless of their O/S of choice, we're all people of a similar mind. We share a natural curiosity, interest in learning, and passion in our craft. I believe that the IT professionals working in the World Trade Center are (were?) probably some of the world's best! I hadn't thought about it from that angle Tom. Thanks! Sigh! Now I feel even worse about this whole mess! But in the long run, I think the terrorists just Shot themselves in the foot, because they just gave the U.S. Carte Blanche. A TV announcer on CNN ( I think ), said today, that this tragedy was this generations' Pearl Harbor, and we all know what happened with that one. This time, someone really Screwed the Pooch ! Notice how all the Allied Powers AND Germany are all denouncing the attacks today? Someone's in for a world of hurt! Right about now, Mass Religious Suicide is going to start looking pretty good to those idiots. You can bet that the U.S. is about to give them a major Wedgie. Then guess who'll be dancing and celebrating on the rooftops?? Lanman On Tuesday 11 September 2001 09:08 pm, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 07:15 pm, Franki escribió: There were alot of IT companies based in those towers, and some banks, this could effect the world ecomomy... especially if the US goes into a rescesion because of it... they were on the brink already... rgds frank My Thoughts had nothin to do with money, any denomination. The world runs on people and their thoughts, not just their produce materially. So I say again. Attacks by misguided cowardly punk assholes affects the whole world, specially those that deserve it least. Even this world's most unfortunate children took a big hit today. Those in the USA, and specially those suported worldwide by http://www.christianchildrensfund.org/ I doubt the zealot cowardly asshole mass murders who acted today were thinkin about anybody but themselves, and what they want. They left many chilren dead, or without parents ... or support. As much as I feel for today's victims, the children of the world are in greater need. Please help if you can God bless Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: -- Jennifer #221463 Yahoo IM: jlynn2k #include wisdom.h void ignorance (it offers no value) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
If it happend in an Earthquake prone country like Japan, it probably wouldn't have collapsed the buildings... but the design as it was,,, was not capable of handling the weight of the floors above crashing onto it. and the structures probably were not designed to handle the amount of flex that the crashes would have produced, so its likely that the crashs produced massive cracks all through the superstucture. the top ten or 15 floors collapsed from the plane damage, and the massive weight (we are talking about hundreds of thousands of tons) hit the floor below that one, which naturally collapsed as well, then that floors rubble added to the weight that hit the floor below that one, and the further down it got, the faster they collapsed It seems logical to read it like that, but I must admit that I was surprised as well, it didn't look like they were going to collapse until they did... rgds Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Matt Greer Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2001 12:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK On Tuesday 11 September 2001 23:07, you wrote: By the way, I'm not comparing this to college football. I'm sorry, but I was/am a bit frustrated at people's reactions to the Palestineans sp?. What they're doing is dispicable, but that doesn't mean we should want their deaths. I think these terrorists should be feeling the same way right about now. I don't think they thought this attack through well enough to ponder the response that will surely follow. Either they didn't really think of the consequences or they don't care. A war could be exactly what they wanted. Who knows. Watching the tower crumble to the ground sends chills down my spine everytime I see it. I don't think hardly anyone would have thought a plane crashing into the upper portion of a skyscraper could cause it to implode. A news channel tonight had an engineer on and even he was surprised. Matt Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
I don't think the terrorists deserver american style justice... Why give then an anesthetic before killing them (by putting them to sleep) they didnt' give their victims any choice in the matter... They deserve alot more then peaceful sleep, they deserve public torture... to serve as a warning... It won't happen, but its what they deserver,, and because it won't happen, it will one day happen again... Geeze, I am such a bastard about this Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Lanman Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2001 12:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Matt Greer Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK Matt; My comments regarding possible retribution were directed ONLY at those responsible. Didn't mean to give you the wrong impression. And I believe that - given the chance- President Bush will take extreme pleasure in bringing those responsible over to our side of the pond (if at all possible, assuming that they're not already here), to face justice American style. The American people will expect it. Kind of a slap in the face to those murderers. Knowing this, they may choose to take themselves out instead. But whether they're Palestinians or Martians, the Americans deserve justice. They already paid the bill. Ask any New Yorker! Sleep time! Goodnight all. Lanman On Thursday 13 September 2001 12:17 am, Matt Greer wrote: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 23:07, you wrote: By the way, I'm not comparing this to college football. I'm sorry, but I was/am a bit frustrated at people's reactions to the Palestineans sp?. What they're doing is dispicable, but that doesn't mean we should want their deaths. I think these terrorists should be feeling the same way right about now. I don't think they thought this attack through well enough to ponder the response that will surely follow. Either they didn't really think of the consequences or they don't care. A war could be exactly what they wanted. Who knows. Watching the tower crumble to the ground sends chills down my spine everytime I see it. I don't think hardly anyone would have thought a plane crashing into the upper portion of a skyscraper could cause it to implode. A news channel tonight had an engineer on and even he was surprised. Matt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
On Tuesday 11 September 2001 11:55 pm, Franki escribió: If it happend in an Earthquake prone country like Japan, it probably wouldn't have collapsed the buildings... Frank, trust me. I was an construction engineer. There is NO way a building that tall, anywhere, by whatever means, could'a survived. The airliner flights were chosen for their long distance flight plans. Plenty of jet fuel was the bomb. 10's of thousands of lbs. After the interiors of the buildings burned, accelerated by the fuel, the steel skeleton melted and collapsed. The weigth of the collapsing floors, was more than those remaining could possibly stand, then the whole deal comes down. The coward assholes knew what they were doin. I suspect tho, judging by much lesser building standards in their part of the world, they probly died thinking they'd cause even worse disaster. -- Tom Brinkman Galveston Bay Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Please let me remind you again, coz i'm sure many people did it already, this list is about newbies fo linux and not politic, and not terror. Don't think that i like what happened there, i was in shock myself. Just try to think , that people in Israel deals with the situation every day, all the day, all the week, all the year ... No, back to the theme of the letter, try not to send any letter, that not about the main theme - LINUX. TIA Michael Spivak -Original Message- From: g.sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK As a newcomer to the list, I've hesitated to reply to any of the comments I've read today. However, I must say, Bravo David! We cannot allow ourselves to sink to the level of the people who perpetrated these acts. We have a right to vengeance, NOT revenge. --Gina On Wednesday 12 September 2001 01:14, you wrote: Hello, I feel terrible about what has happened; I am in Montreal (Canada), and I feel very lucky to live here. I do strongly believe that those responsible for today's tragedy SHOULD be held accountable, but I also believe that, especially in consideration of the safety of [our] democracy, we can NOT toss our morals aside. Without our morals, without our democratic ideals of freedom and safety, there is NOTHING seperating us from the perpetrators of this act. David Charles Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
As a newcomer to the list, I've hesitated to reply to any of the comments I've read today. However, I must say, Bravo David! We cannot allow ourselves to sink to the level of the people who perpetrated these acts. We have a right to vengeance, NOT revenge. --Gina On Wednesday 12 September 2001 01:14, you wrote: Hello, I feel terrible about what has happened; I am in Montreal (Canada), and I feel very lucky to live here. I do strongly believe that those responsible for today's tragedy SHOULD be held accountable, but I also believe that, especially in consideration of the safety of [our] democracy, we can NOT toss our morals aside. Without our morals, without our democratic ideals of freedom and safety, there is NOTHING seperating us from the perpetrators of this act. David Charles Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
No Contest there! I agree! But I don't think the US Government thinks for one second that a terrorist gang pulled this one off by themselves. It was too co-ordinated, too organized. There was some serious money, and intel behind this. Don't be surprised to find out that some radical government was behind it. Either that, or I better cut WAY back on those Tom Clancy novels! By the way, I'm not comparing this to college football. Your Government WILL make the right decision, Matt. But, unless they come down hard on these jerks, it could happen again (God Forbid!). I happen to like Americans, and I wouldn't wish this on them or any other country either. But the best way to prevent repetition is to Drop The Hammer the first time. Obviously I mean dropping it only on those actually responsible. The US people have never been happy about Collateral Damage - of that I'm sure, and this time will be no different. But if I remember my history right (correct me if I'm wrong), one of the Japanese admirals commanding the attack on Pearl Harbor said it better than most. Something like - I believe we have awakened a sleeping monster . They had just finished their attack, and he was already thinking about changing his diapers! I think these terrorists should be feeling the same way right about now. I don't think they thought this attack through well enough to ponder the response that will surely follow. Lanman On Wednesday 12 September 2001 11:45 pm, you wrote: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 22:42, you wrote: Someone's in for a world of hurt! Right about now, Mass Religious Suicide is going to start looking pretty good to those idiots. You can bet that the U.S. is about to give them a major Wedgie. Then guess who'll be dancing and celebrating on the rooftops?? This isn't a college football rivalry. I hope our government makes the right decisions and minimizes the impact as much as possible as they bring the people who did this to justice. War on an entire nation is not the right response to the actions of a small, extreme group. Matt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Hello, I feel terrible about what has happened; I am in Montreal (Canada), and I feel very lucky to live here. I do strongly believe that those responsible for today's tragedy SHOULD be held accountable, but I also believe that, especially in consideration of the safety of [our] democracy, we can NOT toss our morals aside. Without our morals, without our democratic ideals of freedom and safety, there is NOTHING seperating us from the perpetrators of this act. David Charles On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, nathan wainwright wrote: this is only a start people, there is more to come... but yes these bastards made the wronb bear angry and they will pay, be sure of that i know we should not toss our morals aside but for the safety of democracy... we might have to -- nathan From: Lanman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:07:50 -0400 No Contest there! I agree! But I don't think the US Government thinks for one second that a terrorist gang pulled this one off by themselves. It was too co-ordinated, too organized. There was some serious money, and intel behind this. Don't be surprised to find out that some radical government was behind it. Either that, or I better cut WAY back on those Tom Clancy novels! By the way, I'm not comparing this to college football. Your Government WILL make the right decision, Matt. But, unless they come down hard on these jerks, it could happen again (God Forbid!). I happen to like Americans, and I wouldn't wish this on them or any other country either. But the best way to prevent repetition is to Drop The Hammer the first time. Obviously I mean dropping it only on those actually responsible. The US people have never been happy about Collateral Damage - of that I'm sure, and this time will be no different. But if I remember my history right (correct me if I'm wrong), one of the Japanese admirals commanding the attack on Pearl Harbor said it better than most. Something like - I believe we have awakened a sleeping monster . They had just finished their attack, and he was already thinking about changing his diapers! I think these terrorists should be feeling the same way right about now. I don't think they thought this attack through well enough to ponder the response that will surely follow. Lanman On Wednesday 12 September 2001 11:45 pm, you wrote: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 22:42, you wrote: Someone's in for a world of hurt! Right about now, Mass Religious Suicide is going to start looking pretty good to those idiots. You can bet that the U.S. is about to give them a major Wedgie. Then guess who'll be dancing and celebrating on the rooftops?? This isn't a college football rivalry. I hope our government makes the right decisions and minimizes the impact as much as possible as they bring the people who did this to justice. War on an entire nation is not the right response to the actions of a small, extreme group. Matt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
Go and stick your head back up the moose' backside where it obviously came from. The USA is not the only country that suffers from terrorist attacks, but they are the most powerful nation in the world and does not stand for the schoolyard bullying tactics from these extremist groups. The publicity from these attacks is what is sort. Get of your soap box and at least show a bit of sympathy for all the innocent victims. How would you feel if one of your family were involved? The On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 04:40, you wrote: Why is it that terrorists always attack you Americans; you do know that Canada has yet to be attacked by terrorists...of course we -- Canada -- didn't go and bomb Afghanastan -- I know I spelled that wrong -- so When? they have no reason to attack us?! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!!
There were alot of IT companies based in those towers, and some banks, this could effect the world ecomomy... especially if the US goes into a rescesion because of it... they were on the brink already... rgds frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tom Brinkman Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2001 8:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK On Tuesday 11 September 2001 06:56 pm, Art Rowe escribió: We Canadians have had terrorist attacks ...FLQ in Quebec province ..Air India bombing perhaps perpetrated by misguided people from my own city and community! Attacks by misguided cowardly punk assholes affects the whole world, specially those that deserve it least. -- Tom Brinkman Galveston Bay Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
