Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
rikona wrote: Hello Anne, Tuesday, September 23, 2003, 2:43:16 PM, you wrote: It may be in the docs, but not in a form that is readily accessible by a simple search. AW It's an interesting proposition, but not an overnight job, I think g True. How does one get a group together to develop it? Sourceforge? Sir Robin -- I can say: 'Thank these bees for their honey as though they were kind people who have prepared it for you'; that is intelligible and describes how I should like you to conduct yourself. But I cannot say: 'Thank them because, look, how kind they are!'--since the next moment they may sting you. - Wittgenstein Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I used to press ctrl+C, and wondered why linux said that there were stopped jobs everytime I shutdown it. ;p It was not long ago that someone told me to press q to quit the man pages ;p On Wednesday 24 September 2003 07:37 pm, Charles A Edwards wrote: Not to mention how long it took to find out how to get the terminal back after doing $ man foo Charles - -- Fajar http://linux.arinet.org Linux mdk91.sistek.kom 2.4.21-0.13mdk GNU/Linux 17:34:31 up 5:59, 10 users, load average: 1.41, 1.34, 1.45 Quote of the day: Windows - what do you want to crash today? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/dBbAUrYxG8KGMVERAlErAJwKA4RPrIsjrIQPGcBGiL4ZYdZCSACeIay2 GGk9dsU8PVGptlzztMvDUqc= =VIRY -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
Rather than directing a newbie to the man page, it's often better to recommend the info page. OK, sometimes there is no info page and sometimes it's identical to the man page, but frequently they have more explanation and, most usefully, example commands. Later, of course, we'll be able to just type RTFT (Read The Fine Twiki) ;-) Sir Robin -- I can say: 'Thank these bees for their honey as though they were kind people who have prepared it for you'; that is intelligible and describes how I should like you to conduct yourself. But I cannot say: 'Thank them because, look, how kind they are!'--since the next moment they may sting you. - Wittgenstein Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
Anne Wilson wrote: On Tuesday 23 Sep 2003 9:19 pm, rikona wrote: Hello Anne, Monday, September 22, 2003, 12:31:31 AM, you wrote: AAW Don't want to rain on your parade, rikona, but 'natural language' AW searches never seemed to give me answers either. It is VERY likely that your natural language search was nothing at all like what I am proposing. Just because you can type in a regular sentence into a search engine means almost nothing. It may only remove the 'noise' words and look for others, perhaps even with an 'and' between them. Yech. For starters, I am talking about a help system that uses a thesaurus to translate between the 'natural language' words and the 'jargon' used in the docs. The system also understands 'help' ideas such as 'how do I' etc. Other ideas are also used, such as clustering. It is not just a simple search. Also note that almost all inquiries here need more info in addition to the original question. The system must be interactive to be really useful. After the first request, the system then makes a request for more info, just as happens on this list. Based on this improved 'understanding' of the problem, solutions are then offered. If need be, these can be further refined. AW Back again, I think, to the fact that no search can give an answer AW that isn't in the docs, It may be in the docs, but not in a form that is readily accessible by a simple search. AW the docs are written by those who didn't need to ask True. :-) It's an interesting proposition, but not an overnight job, I think g I'll look forward to seeing that in a future Mandrake release? I'm looking forward to strong AI ;-) Sir Robin -- I can say: 'Thank these bees for their honey as though they were kind people who have prepared it for you'; that is intelligible and describes how I should like you to conduct yourself. But I cannot say: 'Thank them because, look, how kind they are!'--since the next moment they may sting you. - Wittgenstein Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
OK In the RUTE manual it says if you're in cli mode, best wya to powerdown is use three finger salut. Why not use shutdown or reboot -now? Is that wise (rutes suggestion..) or out of date? Anyways, when I've dropped out of X, I always use: shutdown -h now Don't know what others do though I always type use halt eric -- Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:51:49 -0400 Heather/Femme [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:08:00 -0600 Charlie M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Heather if you're at the command line interface the best way to shut down is type: halt enter If you just want a reboot type: reboot enter It may all be outdated but it still works. It's what I use the rare times I ever shut down or reboot. HTH Charlie - -- ty. but...doesn't tell me if their method is right/wrong/irrevelevant/dangerous...or what. Ty Femmily I also am interested in the answer. Since installing 9.1, I haven't been able to shut down without shutdown now or ctl-alt-backspace. Didn't care because shutdowns are rare here. Anyway I've used the 3 finger salute probably 30 times or so with no trauma indicated in the past year. 9.1 xfs Lee -- User #223705 Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:51:49 -0400 Heather/Femme [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:08:00 -0600 Charlie M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Heather if you're at the command line interface the best way to shut down is type: halt enter If you just want a reboot type: reboot enter It may all be outdated but it still works. It's what I use the rare times I ever shut down or reboot. HTH Charlie - -- ty. but...doesn't tell me if their method is right/wrong/irrevelevant/dangerous...or what. Ty Femmily Irreverent, for sure. -- User #223705 Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:51:48 -0400 snicks Peter Schilling lives! grin Anyways, when I've dropped out of X, I always use: shutdown -h now Don't know what others do though See ya! -- /\ DarkLord \/ whos schilling? lol I was referring to a Bowie song. heh ty Femme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Wednesday 24 September 2003 09:06 pm, Heather/Femme wrote: OK In the RUTE manual it says if you're in cli mode, best wya to powerdown is use three finger salut. Why not use shutdown or reboot -now? Is that wise (rutes suggestion..) or out of date? ty Earth to Major Femme! Peter Schilling lives! grin Anyways, when I've dropped out of X, I always use: shutdown -h now Don't know what others do though See ya! -- /\ DarkLord \/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
You can wrote in .bash_profile alias name=command it's simple alias quit=halt alias quit2=shutdown -h now :) OK In the RUTE manual it says if you're in cli mode, best wya to powerdown is use three finger salut. Why not use shutdown or reboot -now? Is that wise (rutes suggestion..) or out of date? Anyways, when I've dropped out of X, I always use: shutdown -h now Don't know what others do though I always type use halt eric -- Pozdrowienia Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
Lee Wiggers wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:50:41 + Kaj Haulrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 24 September 2003 03:27 pm, Lee Wiggers wrote: snip Note that if you do your nix learning on the newbie list it may take a few years, and you may bump in to an Aussie or two, but sooner or later it all comes here. Lee Auusies aren't so bad. They're just misplaced Newfoundlanders who are deprived of winter, cod cheeks and icebergs. :-) ttfn John /snip How come they export their pretty girls to my place, then ??? Kaj Haulrich Denmark. -- Registered Linux user # 214073 at http://counter.li.org Powered by Linux - Mandrake 9.1 kernel 2.4.21-0.25mdk Sent to you from a 100 % MicroSCOft-free computer. I heard they had a choice..Pretty girls or sheep. Or was that NZ? Lee FRANKI: That was NZ And they were not the pretty ones, we send only the scrags overseas :-) The pretty ones we keep for ourselves. rgds Franki Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 24, 2003 09:51 pm, Heather/Femme wrote: [..] ty. but...doesn't tell me if their method is right/wrong/irrevelevant/dangerous...or what. Ty Femmily It's the same as with nearly anything in GNU/Linux Heather. There is nearly always more than one way to do anything, and the one that you use without trouble is always the right one. *For you.* For a listing of available commands try here; http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/cmd/ Regards; Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 02:13:09 up 4 days, 15:33, 1 user, load average: 0.63, 0.32, 0.28 You may my glories and my state dispose, But not my griefs; still am I king of those. -- William Shakespeare, Richard II -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/cqVWG11CaRuZZSIRArJiAKCVEhculNZ1JqZAqpDlWrEkCXuKcgCbBRI8 0VwPzqldS/EMV1+SILw3M04= =AzUR -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 02:43, robin wrote: Nicely put, in fact it should be included in the official fortune distribution so people are reminded of it on a regular basis. Sir Robin Reminded of what? stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- For the man who has everything... Penicillin. -- F. Borquin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Thu, 2003-09-25 at 16:05, Eric Huff wrote: I always type use halt eric I use poweroff and reboot - they appear to work much more nicer than plug yank. stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- A cousin of mine once said about money, money is always there but the pockets change; it is not in the same pockets after a change, and that is all there is to say about money. -- Gertrude Stein Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:27:18 -0400 Lee Wiggers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Giant snip but...doesn't tell me if their method is right/wrong/irrevelevant/dangerous...or what. Ty Femmily Irreverent, for sure. -- User #223705 Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org I'm stoned on painkillers, tierd forgot to spellcheck. Forgive me or must I grove for that priviledge. :D Opaloid Eaters R Us (morphine is an opaloid like heroin. ;) ) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:20:31 -0600 Charlie M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 24, 2003 09:51 pm, Heather/Femme wrote: [..] ty. but...doesn't tell me if their method is right/wrong/irrevelevant/dangerous...or what. Ty Femmily It's the same as with nearly anything in GNU/Linux Heather. There is nearly always more than one way to do anything, and the one that you use without trouble is always the right one. *For you.* For a listing of available commands try here; http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/cmd/ Regards; Charlie choice on how to shutdown your comp isn't what I'm after. Just wanna know if doing ctrl-alt-del will shut it sown cleanly... I know it doesn't do it clanly for windows. Most often that results in corrupted files. Sorry if 'm not being clear enough. Just want to make sure that command sequence won't corrupt my system files. Femme-a-whee! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:04:40 +0200 (CEST) Pawel Nozderko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can wrote in .bash_profile alias name=command it's simple alias quit=halt alias quit2=shutdown -h now :) OK In the RUTE manual it says if you're in cli mode, best wya to powerdown is use three finger salut. Why not use shutdown or reboot -now? Is that wise (rutes suggestion..) or out of date? Anyways, when I've dropped out of X, I always use: shutdown -h now Don't know what others do though I always type use halt eric -- Pozdrowienia WOW! you're an awesome blossom dear! TY :) Femminux Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 25, 2003 12:26 am, Lee Wiggers wrote: [..] I also am interested in the answer. Since installing 9.1, I haven't been able to shut down without shutdown now or ctl-alt-backspace. Didn't care because shutdowns are rare here. Anyway I've used the 3 finger salute probably 30 times or so with no trauma indicated in the past year. 9.1 xfs Lee The commands are not dangerous or irrelevant Lee. Your shutdown problems should improve with Canicule (9.2). I have run across a few machines running Bamboo (9.1) that will go through a shutdown cycle, but stop just short of actually powering off. I can't quite figure what's causing it since even the chipsets are different. I've never seen any harm from pushing the power button at that point anyway. One of the machines I was able to cook today is a dual processor Athlon MP 2600+ that has that same glitch in 9.1. Now that it's running a current cooker install it does what it's supposed to do. I posted a link to an online O'Reilly book that has a large alphabetical listing of commands. Most books I swear at; O'Reilly books I swear by. As for anything irreverent; that's an accurate description of yours truly. (-: Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 02:46:35 up 4 days, 16:06, 1 user, load average: 0.10, 0.10, 0.16 quark: The sound made by a well bred duck. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/cq+3G11CaRuZZSIRAgViAJ9A+D3317ibRUZ7rccJP1aP/LRpJACfRZvI FyhC9IQh8e25npshb5cZNn4= =3McP -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 25, 2003 12:47 am, Heather/Femme wrote: [..] choice on how to shutdown your comp isn't what I'm after. Just wanna know if doing ctrl-alt-del will shut it sown cleanly... I know it doesn't do it clanly for windows. Most often that results in corrupted files. Sorry if 'm not being clear enough. Just want to make sure that command sequence won't corrupt my system files. Femme-a-whee! Oh, OK Heather. The three finger salute won't shut the machine down, just reboot it. No, it should not do any harm. If you watch the system you'll see that it will go through a normal reboot cycle using that shortcut. C. - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 03:06:13 up 4 days, 16:26, 1 user, load average: 0.30, 0.20, 0.12 It is impossible to experience one's death objectively and still carry a tune. -- Woody Allen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/crDFG11CaRuZZSIRAucpAJ9Z0kc9Ii94trgv8MjpIqwQC+YOIgCgrdCR n62Kh6z6SsNTD5Dnh/25RHM= =VvxE -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 21:06, Heather/Femme wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:09:20 +0100 Anne Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like paper. I print out man pages, HOW-TOs, TWiki pages g and everything else that seems to help. I buy books, too. I posted a question about symlinks some time ago because I had followed the instructions in the expensive (£3O) book, and it didn't work. In fact the instructions in the FM were completely wrong, and I had been completely mislead by R'ingTFM. Snip Anne OK In the RUTE manual it says if you're in cli mode, best wya to powerdown is use three finger salut. Why not use shutdown or reboot -now? Is that wise (rutes suggestion..) or out of date? ty Earth to Major Femme! amount of keystrokes, as ctrl+alt+delete calls shutdown -h now Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Thursday 25 September 2003 12:01 am, Heather/Femme wrote: whos schilling? lol I was referring to a Bowie song. heh ty Femme Ah, my bad - I was thinking about Peter Schillings song Major Tom. You know, 4 3 2 1, Earth below us, drifting falling... (pardon my singing voice, its 7:11am here and I just got 2 out of 3 kids off to school!) :-) Catch ya later -- /\ DarkLord \/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Thursday 25 Sep 2003 2:06 am, Heather/Femme wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:09:20 +0100 Anne Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like paper. I print out man pages, HOW-TOs, TWiki pages g and everything else that seems to help. I buy books, too. I posted a question about symlinks some time ago because I had followed the instructions in the expensive (£3O) book, and it didn't work. In fact the instructions in the FM were completely wrong, and I had been completely mislead by R'ingTFM. Snip Anne OK In the RUTE manual it says if you're in cli mode, best wya to powerdown is use three finger salut. Why not use shutdown or reboot -now? Is that wise (rutes suggestion..) or out of date? Hi, Femme. Not sure I see the connection with the quote above g, but... If I want to shutdown from cli, I always use shutdown -h now (for shutdown) or shutdown -r now (for reboot). Old fashioned - I know there are some new-fangled ways to avoid typing so much g, but I feel safe knowing exactly what I have told it to do. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Thursday 25 Sep 2003 2:06 am, Heather/Femme wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:09:20 +0100 Anne Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like paper. I print out man pages, HOW-TOs, TWiki pages g and everything else that seems to help. I buy books, too. I posted a question about symlinks some time ago because I had followed the instructions in the expensive (£3O) book, and it didn't work. In fact the instructions in the FM were completely wrong, and I had been completely mislead by R'ingTFM. Snip Anne OK In the RUTE manual it says if you're in cli mode, best wya to powerdown is use three finger salut. Why not use shutdown or reboot -now? Is that wise (rutes suggestion..) or out of date? Wake up, Anne. The connection is whether the book is telling the best way or lying. Sorry, Femme Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Thursday 25 Sep 2003 7:43 am, Heather/Femme wrote: On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:27:18 -0400 Lee Wiggers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Giant snip but...doesn't tell me if their method is right/wrong/irrevelevant/dangerous...or what. Ty Femmily Irreverent, for sure. -- User #223705 Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org I'm stoned on painkillers, tierd forgot to spellcheck. Forgive me or must I grove for that priviledge. :D Opaloid Eaters R Us (morphine is an opaloid like heroin. ;) ) Hey, I never even saw it until you pointed it out - but it's a nice one g Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 15:51, robin wrote: Anne Wilson wrote: On Tuesday 23 Sep 2003 9:19 pm, rikona wrote: Hello Anne, Monday, September 22, 2003, 12:31:31 AM, you wrote: AAW Don't want to rain on your parade, rikona, but 'natural language' AW searches never seemed to give me answers either. It is VERY likely that your natural language search was nothing at all like what I am proposing. Just because you can type in a regular sentence into a search engine means almost nothing. It may only remove the 'noise' words and look for others, perhaps even with an 'and' between them. Yech. For starters, I am talking about a help system that uses a thesaurus to translate between the 'natural language' words and the 'jargon' used in the docs. The system also understands 'help' ideas such as 'how do I' etc. Other ideas are also used, such as clustering. It is not just a simple search. Also note that almost all inquiries here need more info in addition to the original question. The system must be interactive to be really useful. After the first request, the system then makes a request for more info, just as happens on this list. Based on this improved 'understanding' of the problem, solutions are then offered. If need be, these can be further refined. AW Back again, I think, to the fact that no search can give an answer AW that isn't in the docs, It may be in the docs, but not in a form that is readily accessible by a simple search. AW the docs are written by those who didn't need to ask True. :-) It's an interesting proposition, but not an overnight job, I think g I'll look forward to seeing that in a future Mandrake release? I'm looking forward to strong AI ;-) You mean like Arnold Der Terminator? Sir Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 14:15, Franki wrote: Lee Wiggers wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:50:41 + Kaj Haulrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 24 September 2003 03:27 pm, Lee Wiggers wrote: snip Note that if you do your nix learning on the newbie list it may take a few years, and you may bump in to an Aussie or two, but sooner or later it all comes here. Lee Auusies aren't so bad. They're just misplaced Newfoundlanders who are deprived of winter, cod cheeks and icebergs. :-) ttfn John /snip How come they export their pretty girls to my place, then ??? Kaj Haulrich Denmark. -- Registered Linux user # 214073 at http://counter.li.org Powered by Linux - Mandrake 9.1 kernel 2.4.21-0.25mdk Sent to you from a 100 % MicroSCOft-free computer. I heard they had a choice..Pretty girls or sheep. Or was that NZ? Lee FRANKI: That was NZ And they were not the pretty ones, we send only the scrags overseas :-) The pretty ones we keep for ourselves. rgds Franki You kept the pretty sheep ? __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 03:09:25 -0600 Charlie M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: /Snip No, it should not do any harm. If you watch the system you'll see that it will go through a normal reboot cycle using that shortcut. C. - - ty :) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:47:05 -0700 Aron Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 14:15, Franki wrote: Lee Wiggers wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:50:41 + Kaj Haulrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 24 September 2003 03:27 pm, Lee Wiggers wrote: snip Note that if you do your nix learning on the newbie list it may take a few years, and you may bump in to an Aussie or two, but sooner or later it all comes here. Lee Auusies aren't so bad. They're just misplaced Newfoundlanders who are deprived of winter, cod cheeks and icebergs. :-) ttfn John /snip How come they export their pretty girls to my place, then ??? Kaj Haulrich Denmark. -- Registered Linux user # 214073 at http://counter.li.org Powered by Linux - Mandrake 9.1 kernel 2.4.21-0.25mdk Sent to you from a 100 % MicroSCOft-free computer. I heard they had a choice..Pretty girls or sheep. Or was that NZ? Lee FRANKI: That was NZ And they were not the pretty ones, we send only the scrags overseas :-) The pretty ones we keep for ourselves. rgds Franki You kept the pretty sheep ? That explains a lot. ___ ___ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- User #223705 Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On 24 Sep 2003 05:30:42 +0700, Merlin Zener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe the helpful answerers expect things too. Someone suggested [I'm sorry, I don't know who - Evolution is acting up again: emails open up with blank windows - but that's a topic for another thread] that I try locate, but when I do, all I get is command not found. And man locate gets me No manual entry for locate. All I'm saying is, clearly the answerer in that case expected I would have locate installed already... It may not be installed. Do urpmi slocate as root (slocate is the name of the improved command which replaces locate. However, locate still works because it is symlinked to the new command (symlink ~= shortcut)). Then, as root again, do updatedb to create the database it searches. When it has finished, try to locate something. While you're at it, install anacron, too, unless you leave your computer on 24/7. When you boot, it starts the tasks that cron didn't do whilst the PC was off. This includes an updatedb every day. -- Get up and turn I loose Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Wednesday 24 Sep 2003 1:37 pm, Charles A Edwards wrote: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:18:10 +0100 Anne Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OTOH, I had been dutifully opening a console and using su to do maintenance jobs, but closing it to return to user. It was a year later before anyone actually mentioned that if you type 'exit' you don't need to close it :-) Not to mention how long it took to find out how to get the terminal back after doing $ man foo Oh, yes! I enjoyed that particular one for a *very* long time g Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 10:04, Charlie M. wrote: [...snip snip] I'll accept the apology if you'll accept mine, then we'll call it even and start over. OK? (-: Even. Sounds good to me. Thanks, Charlie. Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups -- alcohol, caffeine, sugar, and fat. sigh. If only the Thais understood coffee, the place would be almost perfect... :) -- Merlin Zener Piano, Synthesizer Thailand. registered Linux user number 328618 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 13:18, Anne Wilson wrote: snip OTOH, I had been dutifully opening a console and using su to do maintenance jobs, but closing it to return to user. It was a year later before anyone actually mentioned that if you type 'exit' you don't need to close it :-) Anne Or Ctrl-D. Even quicker. Another Crtl-D closes the terminal if you want to. DougB Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On September 23, 2003 10:41 pm, dlwiggers wrote: On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:17:58 -0700 John Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On September 23, 2003 01:24 am, Anne Wilson wrote: Thank you for a great exposition of adult learning. Why *should* it be more painful than this? Is it just to protect an elite? Way way back there was a computer priesthood. Computers were these strange things that took up whole floors and were tended on by short haired guys in lab coats who, by the 70s, were joined by geeky hippies. These are the guys that wrote man pages. And they wrote them for each other. In shortyes :-) ttfn John Note that if you do your nix learning on the newbie list it may take a few years, and you may bump in to an Aussie or two, but sooner or later it all comes here. Lee Auusies aren't so bad. They're just misplaced Newfoundlanders who are deprived of winter, cod cheeks and icebergs. :-) ttfn John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:03:12 -0700 John Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On September 23, 2003 10:41 pm, dlwiggers wrote: On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:17:58 -0700 John Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On September 23, 2003 01:24 am, Anne Wilson wrote: Thank you for a great exposition of adult learning. Why *should* it be more painful than this? Is it just to protect an elite? Way way back there was a computer priesthood. Computers were these strange things that took up whole floors and were tended on by short haired guys in lab coats who, by the 70s, were joined by geeky hippies. These are the guys that wrote man pages. And they wrote them for each other. In shortyes :-) ttfn John Note that if you do your nix learning on the newbie list it may take a few years, and you may bump in to an Aussie or two, but sooner or later it all comes here. Lee Auusies aren't so bad. They're just misplaced Newfoundlanders who are deprived of winter, cod cheeks and icebergs. :-) ttfn John That's what I thought. Lee -- User #223705 Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Wednesday 24 Sep 2003 2:45 pm, Douglas Bainbridge wrote: On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 13:18, Anne Wilson wrote: snip OTOH, I had been dutifully opening a console and using su to do maintenance jobs, but closing it to return to user. It was a year later before anyone actually mentioned that if you type 'exit' you don't need to close it :-) Anne Or Ctrl-D. Even quicker. Another Crtl-D closes the terminal if you want to. DougB Now where, on the TWiki pages, should that go? g Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Wednesday 24 September 2003 03:27 pm, Lee Wiggers wrote: snip Note that if you do your nix learning on the newbie list it may take a few years, and you may bump in to an Aussie or two, but sooner or later it all comes here. Lee Auusies aren't so bad. They're just misplaced Newfoundlanders who are deprived of winter, cod cheeks and icebergs. :-) ttfn John /snip How come they export their pretty girls to my place, then ??? Kaj Haulrich Denmark. -- Registered Linux user # 214073 at http://counter.li.org Powered by Linux - Mandrake 9.1 kernel 2.4.21-0.25mdk Sent to you from a 100 % MicroSCOft-free computer. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 24, 2003 07:00 am, Merlin Zener wrote: [..] I'll accept the apology if you'll accept mine, then we'll call it even and start over. OK? (-: Even. Sounds good to me. Thanks, Charlie. Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups -- alcohol, caffeine, sugar, and fat. sigh. If only the Thais understood coffee, the place would be almost perfect... :) Merlin Zener Piano, Synthesizer Thailand. You like that Fortune Cookie eh? I've often said this machine is even more warped than I humour-wise. I still want to find out what caused that bounce so I'm sending you an off-list message. I hope that's OK? Peace; Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 12:12:09 up 4 days, 1:31, 1 user, load average: 0.07, 0.10, 0.08 I used to have a drinking problem. Now I love the stuff. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQE/cd8GG11CaRuZZSIRAs0BAJjHikzMeUIRN5QWFCILgXxfGLCaAJ9J64Uu czCL3f6vmA2Y2NfTKiMVmg== =/8qK -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:50:41 + Kaj Haulrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 24 September 2003 03:27 pm, Lee Wiggers wrote: snip Note that if you do your nix learning on the newbie list it may take a few years, and you may bump in to an Aussie or two, but sooner or later it all comes here. Lee Auusies aren't so bad. They're just misplaced Newfoundlanders who are deprived of winter, cod cheeks and icebergs. :-) ttfn John /snip How come they export their pretty girls to my place, then ??? Kaj Haulrich Denmark. -- Registered Linux user # 214073 at http://counter.li.org Powered by Linux - Mandrake 9.1 kernel 2.4.21-0.25mdk Sent to you from a 100 % MicroSCOft-free computer. I heard they had a choice..Pretty girls or sheep. Or was that NZ? Lee -- User #223705 Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Wed, 2003-09-24 at 12:50, Kaj Haulrich wrote: On Wednesday 24 September 2003 03:27 pm, Lee Wiggers wrote: snip Note that if you do your nix learning on the newbie list it may take a few years, and you may bump in to an Aussie or two, but sooner or later it all comes here. Lee Auusies aren't so bad. They're just misplaced Newfoundlanders who are deprived of winter, cod cheeks and icebergs. :-) ttfn John /snip How come they export their pretty girls to my place, then ??? Kaj Haulrich Denmark. Cauz they don't knoe what to do with them ? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 24, 2003 07:06 pm, Heather/Femme wrote: [..] OK In the RUTE manual it says if you're in cli mode, best wya to powerdown is use three finger salut. Why not use shutdown or reboot -now? Is that wise (rutes suggestion..) or out of date? ty Earth to Major Femme! Heather if you're at the command line interface the best way to shut down is type: halt enter If you just want a reboot type: reboot enter It may all be outdated but it still works. It's what I use the rare times I ever shut down or reboot. HTH Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 22:05:05 up 4 days, 11:24, 1 user, load average: 1.04, 1.07, 0.91 Your step will soil many countries. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/cmouG11CaRuZZSIRAgq/AKCdXbHpu7p5muO/AHvy6rCJodW9pwCfdbEc yRtqMLQNO9zLRyqXskV3sos= =RU/l -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:09:20 +0100 Anne Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like paper. I print out man pages, HOW-TOs, TWiki pages g and everything else that seems to help. I buy books, too. I posted a question about symlinks some time ago because I had followed the instructions in the expensive (£3O) book, and it didn't work. In fact the instructions in the FM were completely wrong, and I had been completely mislead by R'ingTFM. Snip Anne OK In the RUTE manual it says if you're in cli mode, best wya to powerdown is use three finger salut. Why not use shutdown or reboot -now? Is that wise (rutes suggestion..) or out of date? ty Earth to Major Femme! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages, slight OT hijack..sorry!
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:08:00 -0600 Charlie M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Heather if you're at the command line interface the best way to shut down is type: halt enter If you just want a reboot type: reboot enter It may all be outdated but it still works. It's what I use the rare times I ever shut down or reboot. HTH Charlie - -- ty. but...doesn't tell me if their method is right/wrong/irrevelevant/dangerous...or what. Ty Femmily Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Wednesday 24 September 2003 08:09 am, Anne Wilson wrote: On Wednesday 24 Sep 2003 11:02 am, HaywireMac wrote: On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:13:07 -0700 John Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: By the same logic you seem to suggest tossing a nonswimmer into the 20 foot end of a pool and say swim which is exactly what RTFM is. I agree wholeheartedly. As for the car, was anyone really put into the driving seat, then told to RTFM? This is where this list comes in. I have found that a combination of manpages, howto's, polite advice (without the RTFM), and Stephen Kuhn telling me to wake the fsck up has been most effective in getting me to learn. I like paper. I print out man pages, HOW-TOs, TWiki pages g and everything else that seems to help. I buy books, too. I posted a question about symlinks some time ago because I had followed the instructions in the expensive (£3O) book, and it didn't work. In fact the instructions in the FM were completely wrong, and I had been completely mislead by R'ingTFM. It's never that simple, yanki, and most of us learn by interaction. I talk to a friend off-list, where we swap problems. Often, before a reply comes back I have solved it myself, because articulation of the problem helps tidy up the thinking processes. And experienced people, both on this list and the expert one, have admitted that they have just done the same thing. Anne I like to close this discussion by giving last word to lady. This thread was too long and hopefully some people get something from this discussion. My only hope is that current way we, Linux community, going will not bring us to dad end of do not think but click. In my uopinion/u the man pages, HOWTO, and personal research should come before asking direct question. But maybe this is coming from my main job of all hated IT manager where 50 times a day I hear the question coming to me in line of how to save to the a: drive. I am not disagree that newbie list and twiky page are important; however in the hit of discussion every one forget what my original post was. I posted an instruction for using man pages. But no good did goes unpunished :) And I was slap by the HiywierMac :) Sorry for having my own opinion I will crawl under my desk and hide from every body. :) I can not withstand a pressure of whole Wilson family (Ann, John) :) Just for joke sorry Will \:-() To post, or not to post: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous flamers, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them? -- Yankl Tiny IT guy. 100 % Micro$oft free. Registered linux users 181086 URL: http://yankele.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On September 22, 2003 07:40 pm, yankl wrote: vicously clear cuts a whole forest of words I do not think that we need to embrace every person who like to switch to linux. (I see the stones flying in my direction but bare with me for a second) The *NIX OS is designed for responsible people, are we agree on this? Of course we can. :-) In fact any OS should be designed for responsinle persons. The fact is that our favourite whipping boy is designed that way too, then sold as an OS for morons. You get what you market to. :-) NT-2000-XP could be as good as *NIX (I see more stones flying in my direction) but it have two major flows. First, every user is Administrator in the system.Second, its make operation easy by hiding most of the backstage operation from user. Why? Because it is easy OS, i.e., by doing this OS writer eliminate situation where user would need to know underbelly of the system. The idea is that you do not need to know how staff ranning. In opposite in *NIX to survive one need to know how things working and why they working like this. Users who like to run easy OS and like to switch to *NIX will force us to come to the same situation where by default we will try to make a user life as easy as it can be. I see that trend in some kde tools. For example do you know where is settings for mime types association is? Now tell me where is a file where this settings stored and what command is responsible for update of this settings? One Russian general sad that if it is difficult in training, it will be easy in a battle. So unless it is emergency the response RFTM ucould/ be a good one. Okay, I'm gonna start flogging this dead horse again. Let's go back a bit to where the man pages actually came from and the purpose they served and largely continue to serve. In the early NIX world where the folks hacking away on the system were C programmers talking to C programmers they came up with this neat system to communicate with each other. It was called manuals or man pages. Initially they were nothing more than slighlty edited copies of code comments explaining a module or package complete with a list of options. While they've come a very small way since then in that they are no longer just a rehash of code commentary the purpose is still the same. It may not be C programmers talking to C programmers any more it's more likely to be shell programmers talking to each other. It's still dense, it says very little that is of any help to a newbie and is likely to lead to more confusion that it is to a solution. And it ain't just Windows users that will be running for the hills. They'll be Mac users, Amiga users and just plain folk who haven't had their own desktop/laptop before. Hell, the man pages are intimidating to university students who specialize in NIX. They serve an invaluable purpose, as noted above, but they were never intended or written as teaching tools to people who are looking at Mandrake and scratching their heads about how to do something. By the chance -k switch in man is key word switch. To find the man pages related to some word. I've made dinner and washed up waiting on that one :-) While not a shot at you, yankl, there are things people who advocate man pages as a teaching/learning document need to remember. The most important thing is that adults don't learn that way. Present an adult with an impetetrable wall, which is how man pages and, sadly, the majority of HOWTOS, appear and they will try to work through it for a while then wonder what the blazes and I doing here and go out and get you know what from a certain Mr Gates cause everyone tells them the lie that it's easy. Adults need to feel, fairly quickly, that they've accomplished something. And documentation should be written to allow that. For example, Joe and Jane Public have a spanking new Mandrake system with, what they discover, is a web server called Apache on it. Great, says Jane, I want to put some stuff up there just for your family. Documents on Apache should show Jane, and Joe if he can pull himself away from his favourite beverage and the football match, how to do that in quick order. We'll pretend such documentation exists. (It doesn't, believe me.) Jane looks at her creation and smiles. Now she's ready to delve more deeply into the mysteries of .htaccess and a whole bunch of other stuff that she didn't know existed. She's also ready to poke around into the firewall because someone suggested that turning off port 80 access incoming from the internet would be a very good idea. She quickly finds documentation on shorewall and webmin that help her do this. (This currently does not exist. It used to but the maintainer of shorewall has deleted it.) Now she's ready to dig into the HOWTOS and the man pages. She's done something, she'd proud of it and wants to learn more. She knows, and so does Joe, that it can be done. Now they
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Tuesday 23 Sep 2003 7:43 am, John Wilson wrote: long snip This is how adults learn. And this is how I teach them and have done so for 15 years. Hook em first then throw the dense stuff at them. This is how you and I learn, too. At the moment I deeply regret not having the time to come up with an example of this. I am, however, considering it if for no other reason than to prevent people from making the same mistakes that I have with respect to setting things up..not understanding the interoperabilty of it all..and ending up with a dead system as a result. Thank you for a great exposition of adult learning. Why *should* it be more painful than this? Is it just to protect an elite? What's really needed in terms of RTFM is an explanation of what resources are available for research, where they are, and in what circumstances each is applicable, together with easily understood examples. Needless to say, I'm thinking that an article on these lines in the newbie section of the TWiki would be very useful. Any offers? It's a challenge, really g If you truly believe the argument, yanki, are you willing to do something about it? Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:47:09 -0600 Charlie M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Smells like protecting the noobs from themselves and I find that slightly distasteful. It's their equipment, if they want to screw it up let them. I will disagree however that RTFM is ever a good stand alone response. Some people won't even know at first that there are such things. 'RTFM X part of the manual accessed by typing the following command in a terminal' would probably always be appropriate however. ditto, ditto, and ditto. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake. -- Jeannette Rankin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:43:33 -0700 John Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: In fact any OS should be designed for responsinle persons. The fact is that our favourite whipping boy is designed that way too, then sold as an OS for morons. You get what you market to. :-) big huge ditto. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened. -- Lao Tsu Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:24:19 +0100 Anne Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Thank you for a great exposition of adult learning. Why *should* it be more painful than this? Is it just to protect an elite? even bigger ditto. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ If little green men land in your back yard, hide any little green women you've got in the house. -- Mike Harding, The Armchair Anarchist's Almanac Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 03:47, HaywireMac wrote: On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:43:33 -0700 John Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: In fact any OS should be designed for responsinle persons. The fact is that our favourite whipping boy is designed that way too, then sold as an OS for morons. You get what you market to. :-) big huge ditto. RTFM OK but the real newbie is having trouble finding TFM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
--- Original Message --- From: Aron Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: newbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 03:47, HaywireMac wrote: On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:43:33 -0700 John Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: In fact any OS should be designed for responsinle persons. The fact is that our favourite whipping boy is designed that way too, then sold as an OS for morons. You get what you market to. :-) big huge ditto. RTFM OK but the real newbie is having trouble finding TFM perhaps this would help everyone concerned... if RTFM is the most enlightened and helpful comment one can make, don't. all this answer does is waste bandwidth while showing everyone a large dose of self-induced FUD. if you can't help, fine. if you can and want to, do so. otherwise, no one cares to witness yet another episode of insecurity through agression. and to those receiving RTFM, consider the source and move on to someone who knows how to help and be useful to the community at large. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 03:25:39 -0700 Aron Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 03:47, HaywireMac wrote: On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:43:33 -0700 John Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: In fact any OS should be designed for responsinle persons. The fact is that our favourite whipping boy is designed that way too, then sold as an OS for morons. You get what you market to. :-) big huge ditto. RTFM OK but the real newbie is having trouble finding TFM Speaking as resident moron. TF(Obtuse)M is not nearly as interesting as this list. I spent the weekend in the F VMware M and not once read reference to Australian cars or Russian cellphones. Just the old boring instructional stuff. Lee Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Tuesday 23 Sep 2003 9:48 pm, rikona wrote: Hello Anne, Tuesday, September 23, 2003, 1:24:19 AM, you wrote: AW Any offers? How about a good 'help system'? I'd be willing to contribute. AW It's a challenge, really g Yes, it will certainly be a challenge. :-) How about a help-system list, maybe? Hi, Rikona. Thanks for the offer. It's better not to split into too many resources, so why not check out the TWiki for newbie stuff, then decide where it would fit best. If you tell us where you want to put it, and what you would like the page to be called we'll set it up for you as a placemarker. You don't have to do it all at once - just work out what you want to say about one source, post it up, and come back later to add more. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Tuesday 23 Sep 2003 9:19 pm, rikona wrote: Hello Anne, Monday, September 22, 2003, 12:31:31 AM, you wrote: AAW Don't want to rain on your parade, rikona, but 'natural language' AW searches never seemed to give me answers either. It is VERY likely that your natural language search was nothing at all like what I am proposing. Just because you can type in a regular sentence into a search engine means almost nothing. It may only remove the 'noise' words and look for others, perhaps even with an 'and' between them. Yech. For starters, I am talking about a help system that uses a thesaurus to translate between the 'natural language' words and the 'jargon' used in the docs. The system also understands 'help' ideas such as 'how do I' etc. Other ideas are also used, such as clustering. It is not just a simple search. Also note that almost all inquiries here need more info in addition to the original question. The system must be interactive to be really useful. After the first request, the system then makes a request for more info, just as happens on this list. Based on this improved 'understanding' of the problem, solutions are then offered. If need be, these can be further refined. AW Back again, I think, to the fact that no search can give an answer AW that isn't in the docs, It may be in the docs, but not in a form that is readily accessible by a simple search. AW the docs are written by those who didn't need to ask True. :-) It's an interesting proposition, but not an overnight job, I think g I'll look forward to seeing that in a future Mandrake release? Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 13:31, Charlie M. wrote: [...snip] If you don't want to answer questions then don't. That's simple enough. Just don't try to discourage others from freely sharing what they've learned. Please. But before someone can realistically expect a total newbie to be able to search the available data sources someone must, first, teach them _how_ to ask what so many deem as 'intelligent questions.' As well as how to find intelligible answer from those so beloved data sources. RTFM and STFW are about as helpful from one that has knowledge as; My monitor doesn't have a picture, just a few lines of text, why? from a newbie. I for one am not averse to a little hand holding since that level of patience was once extended to me by someone knowledgeable that had apparently reasoned the situation out as I do now. YMMV Hi Charlie. I emailed you offlist to apologize but it bounced; I hope you don't mind me taking this opportunity to do it publicly. [for those that missed it, or came in late, I sent a rather hasty reply to one of Charlie's answers - I wasn't pi**ed off as I wrote it, but on re-reading it in the archives I could easily see how it could have been taken that way.] So, sorry once again Charlie. In my case, I've had Mandrake on this machine for a while [and I wouldn't have been able to get it installed without this list] but I haven't actually tried to do anything with it until recently. I got connected using Linux [again, with help from this list] a few weeks back, but when I really think about the actual amount of contact time in front of the computer I think it would really only total about 30 hours tops. So maybe I'm impatient and possibly have unrealistic expectations. Typical newbie? Maybe it all comes down to expectations. The newbie just expects the basics to be the same and is caught out when they're not. Kind of like moving to a different country [as I've done several times] - it's not the things you get told about that catch you out - it's the little things you don't expect that get you. [F1 doesn't mean help, for example]. Maybe the helpful answerers expect things too. Someone suggested [I'm sorry, I don't know who - Evolution is acting up again: emails open up with blank windows - but that's a topic for another thread] that I try locate, but when I do, all I get is command not found. And man locate gets me No manual entry for locate. All I'm saying is, clearly the answerer in that case expected I would have locate installed already... And like whoever suggested the RUTE pdf - I got several page not found results before I finally found somewhere I successfully downloaded it from. At 660 pages it's going to take me quite a while to get through, and in the meantime what do I do about problems that I encounter day by day? I've just begun reading it, and really, I think it will take months to get through. Especially if I follow the advice in the introduction: Any system reference will require you to read it at least three times before you get a reasonable picture of what to do... For me, for now, at least, it's just the same as me trying to read anything more complicated than a menu board in Thai - first I've got to figure out the characters, then work out what the individual words mean, and only then try to work out the meaning of the sentence. I'd venture to point out that most windoze users have never heard of grep or urpmi or invoke or that there's a difference between l and |. I've just scanned quickly through the first couple of chapters and it seems to jump immediately into the command line stuff, like password management and wildcards and expressions and so on. I don't know how often the typical user would ever have to bother with such things, unless he/she is a programmer already. All I'm saying is, from the newbie's perspective, a lot of this stuff is hard work. And to truly understand it will take a LOT of time investment, which is something not everyone can afford. I wonder, is there a more basic guide available which would cover the real basics - in plain English - the essential things you need to know about what's different? Thanks to all those who give freely of their time and expertise on this list, and also, sorry once again to Charlie... :) -- Merlin Zener Piano, Synthesizer Thailand. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Tuesday 23 September 2003 02:43 am, John Wilson wrote: snip John (who keeps hoping that by flogging this dead horse it will get up and win the Triple Crown) /snip John sorry by by your logic you set a person, with no previous knowledge, in a car and tell him to drive. Not only that, but you put him in the middle of car rally. Before you can walk you need to crawl. Unfortunately, for some unexplained reason we all start assuming that Joe Sixpack must be able to write C++ code with no training at all, why? To drive a car one need to have drives license because one can be one can put 100-1,000 people in a danger. By running web server one can put 100,000-1,000,000 people in danger. (It looks like it is over statement but what if virus gets to some atomic lab for example.) The m$ world was originally created to provide complicated tools to average consumer. Look where it brought us too. Simplification of the computer use could be done with in two schemas. One is to hide from user a complexity of process, or m$ way. Click on this icon and your IIS web server will start in background. Another with education. Read 800 page book and you would be able to setup Apache. By design *NIX are falling in second schema. RTFM is a call to read documentation. For a wile we where a colleague, I thought language to adults and before they could read words they started from studying alphabet. It is impossible to combine two schemas sines they are mutually exclusive. Hence, if one like simplicity and does not like to read documintation, s/he dangerous to *NIX world. Because, s/he drug us close to the cliff of m$ pit fall. -- Yankl Tiny IT guy. 100 % Micro$oft free. Registered linux users 181086 URL: http://yankele.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 23, 2003 04:30 pm, Merlin Zener wrote: Hi Charlie. I emailed you offlist to apologize but it bounced; I hope you don't mind me taking this opportunity to do it publicly. [for those that missed it, or came in late, I sent a rather hasty reply to one of Charlie's answers - I wasn't pi**ed off as I wrote it, but on re-reading it in the archives I could easily see how it could have been taken that way.] So, sorry once again Charlie. Nothing to apologize for, and thank you for the consideration for. I expect people to yell at me occasionally and since I'm divorced I don't have a live in yell source. g I just don't know why it bounced. I don't have anybody other than the mad Russian (no user named newbie) filtered to bounce. Interesting. In my case, I've had Mandrake on this machine for a while [and I wouldn't have been able to get it installed without this list] but I haven't actually tried to do anything with it until recently. I got connected using Linux [again, with help from this list] a few weeks back, but when I really think about the actual amount of contact time in front of the computer I think it would really only total about 30 hours tops. So maybe I'm impatient and possibly have unrealistic expectations. Typical newbie? I do remember the thread, I think we both need to start using more smiley faces. Sorry about that. I did apologize for causing you grief though, remember? Maybe it all comes down to expectations. The newbie just expects the basics to be the same and is caught out when they're not. Kind of like moving to a different country [as I've done several times] - it's not the things you get told about that catch you out - it's the little things you don't expect that get you. [F1 doesn't mean help, for example]. It's also things that most of us that have been around for a while don't even think about. Like using Ctrl+Alt+F7 to return to the desktop from the F1 (or 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) screen. I apologize again. I forgot to include that in the reply that cost you the download. Maybe the helpful answerers expect things too. Someone suggested [I'm sorry, I don't know who - Evolution is acting up again: emails open up with blank windows - but that's a topic for another thread] that I try locate, but when I do, all I get is command not found. And man locate gets me No manual entry for locate. All I'm saying is, clearly the answerer in that case expected I would have locate installed already... $locate Secure Locate 2.7 - Released January 24, 2003 Copyright (c) 1999, 2000, 2001 Kevin Lindsay Netnation Communications Inc. James A. Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] search usage: locate [-qi] [-d path] [--database=path] search string... locate [-r regexp] [--regexp=regexp] database usage: locate [-qv] [-o file] [--output=file] locate [-e dir1,dir2,...] [-f fs_type1,... ] [-l level] [-c] [-U path] [-u] general usage: locate [-Vh] [--version] [--help] Options: -u - Create slocate database starting at path /. -U dir - Create slocate database starting at path dir. -c - Parse original GNU Locate's '/etc/updatedb.conf' when using the -u or -U options. If 'updatedb' is symbolically linked to the 'locate' binary, the original configuration file will automatically be used. -e dir1,dir2,... - Exclude directories from the slocate database when using the -u or -U options. -f fs_type1,... - Exclude file system types from the slocate database when using the -u or -U options. (ie. NFS, etc). -l level - Security level. 0 turns security checks off. This will make searchs faster. 1 turns security checks on. This is the default. -q - Quiet mode. Error messages are suppressed. -n num - Limit the amount of results shown to num. -i - Does a case insensitive search. -r regexp --regexp=regexp - Search the database using a basic POSIX regular expression. -o file --output=file- Specifies the database to create. -d path --database=path - Specfies the path of databases to search in. -h --help - Display this help. -v --verbose - Verbose mode. Display files when creating database. -V --version - Display version. Author: Kevin Lindsay Bugs: [EMAIL PROTECTED] FTP:ftp://ftp.geekreview.org/slocate/ ftp://ftp.mkintraweb.com/pub/linux/slocate/ HTTP: http://www.geekreview.org/slocate/ And like whoever suggested the RUTE pdf - I got several page not found results before I finally found somewhere I successfully downloaded it from.
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On September 23, 2003 06:07 pm, yankl wrote: On Tuesday 23 September 2003 02:43 am, John Wilson wrote: snip Oh my. :-) John sorry by by your logic you set a person, with no previous knowledge, in a car and tell him to drive. Not only that, but you put him in the middle of car rally. Before you can walk you need to crawl. Unfortunately, for some unexplained reason we all start assuming that Joe Sixpack must be able to write C++ code with no training at all, why? To drive a car one need to have drives license because one can be one can put 100-1,000 people in a danger. By running web server one can put 100,000-1,000,000 people in danger. (It looks like it is over statement but what if virus gets to some atomic lab for example.) Reread what I said and it said that you don't put an untrained person into the seat of an automobile give them the keys and say drive. (Though I'd say a larger percentage of drivers learned exactly that way than we'd care to think.) Reread what I said about setting up a web server for internal use on a private at home network. Carefully reread that I noted that one should close down all incoming attempts at Port 80 connections. Perhaps it was a bit flippant for someone who isn't born to English but that is what I said. I also said that by getting a page up quickly and with as little hassle as possible adults will then dive into it with quite a bit of vigor and, perhaps one day, even read the man pages. As I noted, they're still not likely to understand them but then again, they won't need them either. I'm NOT suggesting that one can walk without crawling. What I am suggesting, and what every good parent does, is to remove the roadblocks to crawling and taking those first steps wherever they can. By the same logic you seem to suggest tossing a nonswimmer into the 20 foot end of a pool and say swim which is exactly what RTFM is. The m$ world was originally created to provide complicated tools to average consumer. Look where it brought us too. Bits of programming stupidity like allowing HTML, .exe, .pif, active X, javascript and java to freely execute on the Active desktop, in Outlook, M$ Office and soon brought us where it did in terms of security. Please also remember that the development of the PC world from way back in Altair days to the present have a huge debt to the amateurs who contributed to it. This includes Linux which also, BTW, has easy to use graphical programming tools available. For goodness sake. One form or another of these has existed in the PC world since Turbo Pascal. Simplification of the computer use could be done with in two schemas. One is to hide from user a complexity of process, or m$ way. Click on this icon and your IIS web server will start in background. By this logic, yankl, you're suggesting that Mandrake shouldn't offer to install servers in their installation prigram till after we've all signed something to say we know completely how to use it? A person can install all kinds of servers, including a firewall, even on the download version. And a lot of them will come up running as soon as you boot it. Another with education. Read 800 page book and you would be able to setup Apache. No adult in their right mind will read an 800 page book to learn to post a simple web page. No properly written book would even suggest such a thing. By design *NIX are falling in second schema. RTFM is a call to read documentation. For a wile we where a colleague, I thought language to adults and before they could read words they started from studying alphabet. It is impossible to combine two schemas sines they are mutually exclusive. Hence, if one like simplicity and does not like to read documintation, s/he dangerous to *NIX world. Because, s/he drug us close to the cliff of m$ pit fall. Actually *NIX is in niether camp that you describe. It revels in its complexity, which is a good thing. However if you turn someone loose with the man pages and HOWTOS, which, as I've pointed out are old, misleading to downright wrong then you are setting them on the road to disaster. The teaching of language isn't a bad example but it isn't a good one either. For me as an english speaker to learn french it is not necessary to study the alphabet because we use the same one. What is difficult is non-English concepts like the gender of words, the notion of regular verbs which are scarce in Engish and the importance of word order which is vital to english but not as vital in French. To the extent of the cultural notions of a different language you're correct. However in most language courses one learns to say Hello, John or Bonjour, Jean before diving in too deeply. Ditto for all programming manuals I've ever read which invariably start off with some version of Hello World! becore diving much deeper. Finally, simplicity in computing does not exist. Even MicroShaft doesn't buy into that one
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On September 23, 2003 01:24 am, Anne Wilson wrote: Thank you for a great exposition of adult learning. Why *should* it be more painful than this? Is it just to protect an elite? Way way back there was a computer priesthood. Computers were these strange things that took up whole floors and were tended on by short haired guys in lab coats who, by the 70s, were joined by geeky hippies. These are the guys that wrote man pages. And they wrote them for each other. In shortyes :-) ttfn John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:17:58 -0700 John Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On September 23, 2003 01:24 am, Anne Wilson wrote: Thank you for a great exposition of adult learning. Why *should* it be more painful than this? Is it just to protect an elite? Way way back there was a computer priesthood. Computers were these strange things that took up whole floors and were tended on by short haired guys in lab coats who, by the 70s, were joined by geeky hippies. These are the guys that wrote man pages. And they wrote them for each other. In shortyes :-) ttfn John Note that if you do your nix learning on the newbie list it may take a few years, and you may bump in to an Aussie or two, but sooner or later it all comes here. Lee -- User #223705 Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:30:25 -0700 rikona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello yankl, Whack's Stephen upside the head! oops... Sorry to spoil your rant. :-) -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] LOL nice going Rikona! hehe sorry but thats hilarious! FemmesAnAxeMurderer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 9:03 pm, rikona wrote: Yep - another part of the problem. M$ help suffers from the same problem, although their overall integration of help is a step in the right direction. Newbies can describe the question in 'natural language', which is unfortunately not the language used in the OS data base. The first OS that uses a thesaurus well will really be a winner. I'm hoping that will be Mandrake. How can we do that? Don't want to rain on your parade, rikona, but 'natural language' searches never seemed to give me answers either. Back again, I think, to the fact that no search can give an answer that isn't in the docs, and the docs are written by those who didn't need to ask g Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 02:41, Heather/Femme wrote: On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:30:25 -0700 rikona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello yankl, Whack's Stephen upside the head! oops... Sorry to spoil your rant. :-) -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] LOL nice going Rikona! hehe sorry but thats hilarious! FemmesAnAxeMurderer O... No, she doesn't have a very strange sense of humor,,, no,,, nothing like that,,, But I like it ET Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:31:31 +0100 Anne Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 9:03 pm, rikona wrote: Yep - another part of the problem. M$ help suffers from the same problem, although their overall integration of help is a step in the right direction. Newbies can describe the question in 'natural language', which is unfortunately not the language used in the OS data base. The first OS that uses a thesaurus well will really be a winner. I'm hoping that will be Mandrake. How can we do that? Don't want to rain on your parade, rikona, but 'natural language' searches never seemed to give me answers either. Back again, I think, to the fact that no search can give an answer that isn't in the docs, and the docs are written by those who didn't need to ask g Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Personnaly, I've had better luck with google than man, but there's something else that needs honorable mention in this thread. Maybe a couple something elses. 1. My linux skills are improving because very often I'll read something here that strikes my fancy, try it, google it, and maybe after the experience, throw it away, just a little smarter. It must be a character flaw. I've been married 5 times. 2. The teacher learns just as much as the student. How many times have you looked something up to be sure not to commit that gaffe? 3. Obviously we can afford the bandwidth. What's a Holden, anyway? Lee Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 02:31, Charlie M. wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 21, 2003 11:57 pm, rikona wrote: Hello yankl, y hence the end of my e-mail man -k. Have any one done their home y work? Yes, but it was not very helpful, as I mentioned. y By typing #man -k lilo one can see what command it relates too. Aha - now we can actually see the un-natural language needed to get the answer. The page number is 'lilo', and we still have to keep the -k. :-) y Unless we like to have m$users we need to start using all tools y provided by OS. That elitist snob attitude has actually caused more people to shy away from GNU/Linux than any real or perceived difficulty in running a distribution. These MS users that are so denigrated by so many have at least one redeeming quality; they have money to spend on distributions. They're usually willing to pay for what they *perceive* as a quality product. I FULLY agree with that last paragraph, and would add, it is one of the 2 most outstanding qualities of Mandrake linux, the embracing of (soon to be former) desktop M$users (who are looking for a better way), and the adhering to the GNU/GPL, (imho). Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On 22 Sep 2003 06:41:39 -0400 ed tharp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snips... eds parts :) LOL nice going Rikona! hehe sorry but thats hilarious! FemmesAnAxeMurderer O... No, she doesn't have a very strange sense of humor,,, no,,, nothing like that,,, But I like it ET *grins* ty. :) Least I'm keeping Ed amused. FemmeLiar Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Monday 22 September 2003 07:51 pm, Heather/Femme wrote: On 22 Sep 2003 06:41:39 -0400 I think my point was not taken properly. I am sorry it probably my English (it not even my second language more like fourth). My point was that people should make a research first and then try to ask questions. By researching you find new tools and new way to do it. By asking and replicating what other told you you box yourself in one correct way and do not know that their are more way to do it. Man pages problem is not often in man pages writers, it is in man pages users. Remember to get correct answer you must ask correct question. And this mean techno talk, jargon, terminology and simple understanding of what you are trying to do. I am not against community support. However, I think that teaching people to understand how to get info from resources provided to them we could help them more then just given them correct answer. My definition of m$users is people who do not think how to do something but just know how to click. Other name I have for them is lifu long index fingers users. Sorry for an other runt. -- Yankl Tiny IT guy. 100 % Micro$oft free. Registered linux users 181086 URL: http://yankele.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Monday 22 September 2003 09:19 pm, Charlie M. wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 22, 2003 06:51 pm, yankl wrote: On Monday 22 September 2003 07:51 pm, Heather/Femme wrote: On 22 Sep 2003 06:41:39 -0400 I think my point was not taken properly. I am sorry it probably my English (it not even my second language more like fourth). My point was that (I'm accepting the language barrier but you seem to be doing amazingly well) a response such as that one would frighten most Windows refugees to death when they're already near to running for the hills. I hope you didn't take anything that I responded the wrong way. We need all of the help we can find around here and you *do* seem to know what you're doing AFAICS. My point was that people should make a research first and then try to ask questions. By researching you find new tools and new way to do it. By asking and replicating what other told you you box yourself in one correct way and do not know that their are more way to do it. I'll agree with that within the limitation that first we have to teach those people _how_ to find the answers. As with almost everything related to Open Source Software, there are many ways to do searches, many sources to do those searches. It always amazes me that so many people that I deal with daily have a hard time finding things on Google, but that doesn't mean I stop trying to teach them. Man pages problem is not often in man pages writers, it is in man pages users. Remember to get correct answer you must ask correct question. And this mean techno talk, jargon, terminology and simple understanding of what you are trying to do. This goes back to the fact that a newbie isn't going to know how to ask intelligent questions until they're taught. Can we agree on that? I am not against community support. However, I think that teaching people to understand how to get info from resources provided to them we could help them more then just given them correct answer. Usually I'll post a link to more information when I answer a question. I've been a bit slack on that score recently due to time pressure; but that's *my* problem. If even half of those reading such responses click the links eventually they'll gain a glimpse of what's available. My definition of m$users is people who do not think how to do something but just know how to click. Other name I have for them is lifu long index fingers users. Really? I call those people politicians(1) usually. g MS users are people that in most cases have never had a reason to think anything else was possible. Sorry for an other runt. OK, now I'm starting to wonder about those weak language skills you claim. In your signature you call yourself Tiny IT guy but that's three times that I remember you have used the word runt when the correct word is rant. Unless it's an intentional pun of course. If it is; good one! :-) ;)Which other runt though? (; Peace; Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 18:56:33 up 2 days, 8:16, 1 user, load average: 0.07, 0.20, 0.37 I've been there. (1) Or wastes of space. Same thing, different day. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/b5+8G11CaRuZZSIRAngDAJ9z68rOTPp7jtmx2RQ1JJ/OQvnqtQCgh32R Aah80KTH5NwVAmW9r/fiixI= =ZcZo -END PGP SIGNATURE- Thanks for correcting me, it is rant. The spell check some time can be an evil creature. I do not think that we need to embrace every person who like to switch to linux. (I see the stones flying in my direction but bare with me for a second) The *NIX OS is designed for responsible people, are we agree on this? NT-2000-XP could be as good as *NIX (I see more stones flying in my direction) but it have two major flows. First, every user is Administrator in the system.Second, its make operation easy by hiding most of the backstage operation from user. Why? Because it is easy OS, i.e., by doing this OS writer eliminate situation where user would need to know underbelly of the system. The idea is that you do not need to know how staff ranning. In opposite in *NIX to survive one need to know how things working and why they working like this. Users who like to run easy OS and like to switch to *NIX will force us to come to the same situation where by default we will try to make a user life as easy as it can be. I see that trend in some kde tools. For example do you know where is settings for mime types association is? Now tell me where is a file where this settings stored and what command is responsible for update of this settings? One Russian general sad that if it is difficult in training, it will be easy in a battle. So unless it is emergency the response RFTM ucould/ be a good one. By the chance -k switch in man is key word switch. To find the man pages related to some word. -- Yankl
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 22, 2003 08:40 pm, yankl wrote: [..] Thanks for correcting me, it is rant. The spell check some time can be an evil creature. I was having a bit of fun Yankl. kidding The use of the word seemed possibly appropriate given that line in your signature. ;) /kidding I do not think that we need to embrace every person who like to switch to linux. (I see the stones flying in my direction but bare with me for a second) The *NIX OS is designed for responsible people, are we agree on this? Agreed with limits. Some irresponsible people may seem that way at first blush, and may even be so. But everyone has the potential to grow so I think all deserve a chance. One anyway. g NT-2000-XP could be as good as *NIX (I see more stones flying in my direction) but it have two major flows. First, every user is Administrator in the system.Second, its make operation easy by hiding most of the backstage operation from user. Why? Because it is easy OS, i.e., by doing this OS writer eliminate situation where user would need to know underbelly of the system. The idea is that you do not need to know how staff ranning. In opposite in *NIX to survive one need to know how things working and why they working like this. Users who like to run easy OS and like to switch to *NIX will force us to come to the same situation where by default we will try to make a user life as easy as it can be. I see that trend in some kde tools. For example do you know where is settings for mime types association is? Now tell me where is a file where this settings stored and what command is responsible for update of this settings? One Russian general sad that if it is difficult in training, it will be easy in a battle. So unless it is emergency the response RFTM ucould/ be a good one. Depends on your desktop environment. Are you after the mimetypes in; /usr/bin /usr/share /usr/local or over all? It's a long list. File associations for most people are found in and changed in the GUI file manager. Some people do everything at the CLI instead though. I don't have a preference myself, I'll use whatever strikes my fancy at the moment. Or did you just want /etc/menu-methods? Or in user space only? I guess you haven't tried the Release Candidates for 9.2 then? Some of the changes are leaning that way, even more than some of the things incorporated into 9.1. There are a few details that I'll be changing and a few functions I'll be adding back into my own install to get back to the easy enough to work with, *very easy to break* that I've grown accustomed to. I can still do whatever I've always been able to in Mandrake Linux, it's just not as easy to do some things as it once was. As super user for example. Smells like protecting the noobs from themselves and I find that slightly distasteful. It's their equipment, if they want to screw it up let them. I will disagree however that RTFM is ever a good stand alone response. Some people won't even know at first that there are such things. 'RTFM X part of the manual accessed by typing the following command in a terminal' would probably always be appropriate however. By the chance -k switch in man is key word switch. To find the man pages related to some word. Yes and how many that inhabit this list knew that before this thread (useful as it probably has been) started? It's been an interesting discussion, thanks. :) Regards; Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 21:21:07 up 2 days, 10:40, 1 user, load average: 0.62, 0.39, 0.30 Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill. Every time. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/b8I9G11CaRuZZSIRAit+AJ479RP22GfP1mszNk38IJq1HpFILACeKPwf WlmrU4IXPRq9jC3hucAW+RI= =Or/6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Monday 22 September 2003 11:47 pm, Charlie M. wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 22, 2003 08:40 pm, yankl wrote: [..] Thanks for correcting me, it is rant. The spell check some time can be an evil creature. I was having a bit of fun Yankl. kidding The use of the word seemed possibly appropriate given that line in your signature. ;) /kidding I have not made a connection until I look at word definition. snip Depends on your desktop environment. Are you after the mimetypes in; /snip talk about kde and on going problem with wma files. I was trying to make a point of hiding setting from users. In days when I started many moons ago, script was a king and you use to have had figure out staff by yourself, and along the way you would find tons of info which would help you in the future. Now days KDE/GNOME becoming dangerously NTish, which could compromise security and stability of *NIX. I guess you haven't tried the Release Candidates for 9.2 then? cooker since it reopen after 9.1 relies snip Smells like protecting the noobs from themselves and I find that slightly distasteful. /snip second this snip It's been an interesting discussion, thanks. :) /snip Yes it was. Hope it all for good. -- Yankl Tiny IT guy. 100 % Micro$oft free. Registered linux users 181086 URL: http://yankele.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 3:53 am, yankl wrote: On Saturday 20 September 2003 10:39 pm, HaywireMac wrote: On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:31:14 -0400 yankl [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: whack ROTFLMAO! Ok, back to reality, you just wasted 5 minutes of your life you will never get back... ;-) I donate this 5 minutes to the FSF/OSS foundation. Yank, man pages are great once you have a bit of experience under the belt. For a true newbie, many ar totally inpenetrable. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 8:49 am, Anne Wilson wrote: Yank, man pages are great once you have a bit of experience under the belt. For a true newbie, many ar totally inpenetrable. Agreed, but I'm not a newbie and IME, man pages are almost useless for how do I do x. apropos doesn't work because the man pages call it y. If someone tells me use the abc command then I can use man to find out how it works. -- Richard Urwin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Sun, 2003-09-21 at 06:00, Ronald J. Hall wrote: On Sunday 21 September 2003 03:49 am, Anne Wilson wrote: Yank, man pages are great once you have a bit of experience under the belt. For a true newbie, many ar totally inpenetrable. Anne Exactly. What was it that somebody said once? Man pages should never be written by the people who wrote the software that a particular man page is talking about Or something like that grin ** The one thing that Programmers are NOT good at is Documentation. That's why Tech Writers exist (unfortunately the good ones find out that writing Science Fiction pays better :-( ). Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 3:22 pm, Aron Smith wrote: ** The one thing that Programmers are NOT good at is Documentation. That's why Tech Writers exist (unfortunately the good ones find out that writing Science Fiction pays better :-( ). As a programmer: Documenting a program is a good and worthwhile activity; like going to the dentist. However documentation is like sex; when it's good it's wonderful, and when it's bad it's still better than nothing. -- Richard Urwin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
Richard Urwin wrote: On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 3:22 pm, Aron Smith wrote: ** The one thing that Programmers are NOT good at is Documentation. That's why Tech Writers exist (unfortunately the good ones find out that writing Science Fiction pays better :-( ). As a programmer: Documenting a program is a good and worthwhile activity; like going to the dentist. However documentation is like sex; when it's good it's wonderful, and when it's bad it's still better than nothing. man pages are not meant to be a hand holding how-to document (though recently, some apps are using them as such). If you want to know how to use a command/app, read a how-to, do a google from a tutorial, don't read the man page. man pages are meant to refresh you memory about a command's function and it's options. -- David Filion Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 7:37 pm, David Filion wrote: Richard Urwin wrote: On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 3:22 pm, Aron Smith wrote: ** The one thing that Programmers are NOT good at is Documentation. That's why Tech Writers exist (unfortunately the good ones find out that writing Science Fiction pays better :-( ). As a programmer: Documenting a program is a good and worthwhile activity; like going to the dentist. However documentation is like sex; when it's good it's wonderful, and when it's bad it's still better than nothing. man pages are not meant to be a hand holding how-to document (though recently, some apps are using them as such). If you want to know how to use a command/app, read a how-to, do a google from a tutorial, don't read the man page. man pages are meant to refresh you memory about a command's function and it's options. which is where they are great. So please, don't tell newbies that they are the first port of call. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
Anne Wilson wrote: On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 7:37 pm, David Filion wrote: Richard Urwin wrote: On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 3:22 pm, Aron Smith wrote: ** The one thing that Programmers are NOT good at is Documentation. That's why Tech Writers exist (unfortunately the good ones find out that writing Science Fiction pays better :-( ). As a programmer: Documenting a program is a good and worthwhile activity; like going to the dentist. However documentation is like sex; when it's good it's wonderful, and when it's bad it's still better than nothing. man pages are not meant to be a hand holding how-to document (though recently, some apps are using them as such). If you want to know how to use a command/app, read a how-to, do a google from a tutorial, don't read the man page. man pages are meant to refresh you memory about a command's function and it's options. which is where they are great. So please, don't tell newbies that they are the first port of call. Anne Amen to that. -- David Filion Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:39:22 -0400 HaywireMac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:31:14 -0400 yankl [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: whack ROTFLMAO! Ok, back to reality, you just wasted 5 minutes of your life you will never get back... ;-) -- HaywireMac Agreed. Plus Man pages suck. They're often out of date, written by coders with bad grammar even lousier syntax. I hate man pages though I do use them when need arises. Other side of the coin yankl. Femme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Sunday 21 September 2003 06:03 am, Richard Urwin wrote: On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 8:49 am, Anne Wilson wrote: Yank, man pages are great once you have a bit of experience under the belt. For a true newbie, many ar totally inpenetrable. Agreed, but I'm not a newbie and IME, man pages are almost useless for how do I do x. apropos doesn't work because the man pages call it y. If someone tells me use the abc command then I can use man to find out how it works. hence the end of my e-mail man -k. Have any one done their home work? What got me going is some one asking how to uninstall lilo. This is a case where you should go to lilo man page and see how it is done. By typing #man -k lilo one can see what command it relates too. Unless we like to have m$users we need to start using all tools provided by OS. Man is a grate tool too start fooling around with out fear of screwing up something. In my opinion the order of trying to solve something in the *nix should be as following: 1. HOWTO (tldp.org or build in) 2. man page 3. google.com 4. newbie list If one will not try to figure out staff by him/herself we will have to switch to m$ like OS where it is one way to do it and its full of holes because it is more important to make it ease then to make it safe. Sorry for an other runt but this is a subject I feel strong about. Give man a fish and he can eat a day; teach man how to fish and he can eat for life. = Tell man how to do it and he will do it; teach man how to resource and he will nether go back to m$. -- Yankl Tiny IT guy. 100 % Micro$oft free. Registered linux users 181086 URL: http://yankele.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:36:27 -0400 yankl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 21 September 2003 06:03 am, Richard Urwin wrote: On Sunday 21 Sep 2003 8:49 am, Anne Wilson wrote: Yank, man pages are great once you have a bit of experience under the belt. For a true newbie, many ar totally inpenetrable. Agreed, but I'm not a newbie and IME, man pages are almost useless forhow do I do x. apropos doesn't work because the man pages call it y. If someone tells me use the abc command then I can use man to find out how it works. hence the end of my e-mail man -k. Have any one done their home work? What got me going is some one asking how to uninstall lilo. This is a case where you should go to lilo man page and see how it is done. By typing #man -k lilo one can see what command it relates too. Unless we like to have m$users we need to start using all tools provided by OS. snip yaddayyahda blahb blah Problem: We do want M$users. You want them to jump right in. Not gonna happen. End of story. Femme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:31:14 -0400 yankl [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: whack ROTFLMAO! Ok, back to reality, you just wasted 5 minutes of your life you will never get back... ;-) -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Reality is for people who lack imagination. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Rant: The man pages
On Saturday 20 September 2003 10:39 pm, HaywireMac wrote: On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:31:14 -0400 yankl [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: whack ROTFLMAO! Ok, back to reality, you just wasted 5 minutes of your life you will never get back... ;-) I donate this 5 minutes to the FSF/OSS foundation. -- Yankl Tiny IT guy. 100 % Micro$oft free. Registered linux users 181086 URL: http://yankele.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
