Re: CS>Argyria question for Reid

[Marshalee Hallett]

I have a plug in gadget that my ex, a radio ham, gave me. 


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 18, 2017, at 11:51 AM, Sandee George  wrote:
> 
> Thank you Debbie 
> Peace, love and hugs 
> Sandee🐬
> An Attitude of Gratitude is Everything
> oha...@juno.com
> & or 
> san...@spiceisle.com
> Alive Again Colloidal Silver Products
> Topical Gel & Eye Drops
> 

Re: CS>Argyria question for Reid

[Sandee George]

Thank you Debbie 
Peace, love and hugs 
Sandee🐬
An Attitude of Gratitude is Everything
oha...@juno.com
& or 
san...@spiceisle.com
Alive Again Colloidal Silver Products
Topical Gel & Eye Drops

Re: CS>Argyria question for Reid

[Deborah Gerard]

 Sandee...I totally agree. Breaks my heart when you try to warn others about 
medicine and the damage that most prescriptions cause to the human body alone 
and I get the eye roll. So glad your eyes are open. Wishing you a safe and 
blessed Christmas as well and to everyone here.
Debbie
On Monday, December 18, 2017, 12:49:59 PM EST, Sandee George 
 wrote:  
 
 Neville good to know you are still around and living life.    Even when we 
know there is such a veil of deception all over the place, which we have to use 
our own determination to get through, to, what is right for each one of us.     
I know the mob very well about which you speak, they have done so much damage 
to people who allow the Doctor who calls himself God to, from lack of 
understanding and homework, drive the truck, both in Australia and America, 
they are doing the same job - putting MONEY IN THE HANDS OF PHARMA. to the 
detriment of those who spend their lives researching things to determine what 
is good for one body and what is not good for that same body, as not all bodies 
are not the same!      Quite a big job in my opinion      Doctors only 
study to make as good a judgement call on they see and hear from the one that 
is in front of them, not their fault, they have just been trained to be 
lackeys, ultimately we are responsible for our own bodies and are supposed to 
use doctors only as a second opinion on what is going on in our own bodies  
   We are supposed to know ourselves better than any outsider !I would like 
to take this opportunity of wishing you and everyone on this list a very Merry, 
Healthy, Happy Season spent with much good fun and laughter, welcoming in a 
wonderful year to come.  Peace, love and hugs to all
Sandee🐬
An Attitude of Gratitude is everythingoha...@juno.com& or 
sandee@spiceisle.comAlive Again Colloidal Silver Products
Topical Gel & Eye Drops
  

Re: CS>Argyria question for Reid

[Sandee George]

Neville good to know you are still around and living life.Even when we know 
there is such a veil of deception all over the place, which we have to use our 
own determination to get through, to, what is right for each one of us. I 
know the mob very well about which you speak, they have done so much damage to 
people who allow the Doctor who calls himself God to, from lack of 
understanding and homework, drive the truck, both in Australia and America, 
they are doing the same job - putting MONEY IN THE HANDS OF PHARMA. to the 
detriment of those who spend their lives researching things to determine what 
is good for one body and what is not good for that same body, as not all bodies 
are not the same!  Quite a big job in my opinion  Doctors only 
study to make as good a judgement call on they see and hear from the one that 
is in front of them, not their fault, they have just been trained to be 
lackeys, ultimately we are responsible for our own bodies and are supposed to 
use doctors only as a second opinion on what is going on in our own bodies  
   We are supposed to know ourselves better than any outsider !
I would like to take this opportunity of wishing you and everyone on this list 
a very Merry, Healthy, Happy Season spent with much good fun and laughter, 
welcoming in a wonderful year to come.  
Peace, love and hugs to all
Sandee🐬
An Attitude of Gratitude is Everything
oha...@juno.com
& or 
san...@spiceisle.com
Alive Again Colloidal Silver Products
Topical Gel & Eye Drops

Re: CS>Argyria question for Reid

[yousouf eydatoula]

 Just adding my bit. I have been using CS for 22 years using an adaptor 30V dc, 
silver bullion coins 99.99% pure and distilled water. Of course no agyria. I 
have found 99% of doctors to be miserably ignorant, horrible liars, just little 
drug pushers for big pharma, people who don't give a damn about patients, and 
plain lazy bastards who would never read any research.What make me write is 
something my cousin told me 2 days ago. She was having conjunctivity in one 
eye, and I gave her some dilute hydrogen peroxide. She was afraid to use it, 
but she made some CS with her adaptor (I made about 200 of these and gave to 
friends and relatives some 20 years ago. Now I just tell people to use laptop 
adaptors. 18-21V but they work well). She cleaned her eyes and they got well. 
That happened 6 months ago. But what's interesting was the fact that she sees 
so well now that she does not need eyeglasses anymore. She did not tell me and 
I did not know that she had beginning cataracts and her doctor had told soon 
she would need to operate. No cataracts now. I am not sure which one worked for 
her, the hydrogen peroxide or the CS. She told me she was sure it was the CS. 
But to answer the question about agyria, CS does cause it. Never listen to 
doctors about CS. I was a regular consumer of antibiotics before I found CS. In 
22 years I have never caught a cold or the flu except once when I travelling in 
India and I did not have my CS maker with me.
On Monday, December 18, 2017, 9:46:54 AM GMT+4, Neville 
 wrote:  
 
 David...I wrote to our TGA, which is the same mob as the FDA in the U.S 
several years back and they have *no* information or reports regarding EIS 
causing *anything*. Plenty of other rubbish they waffled on about but nothing 
about EIS, mainly because they don't even know what EIS is.  I've been taking 
20-30mm 10-15ppm my EIS for 15 odd years every morning and I ain't blue yet, or 
any other colour of the rainbow, besides normal human species colour . This 
is why we refer our product to EIS and not colloidal silver or CS, so as to 
distinguish it from that/those products. And my brain bleed 2 years ago wasn't 
caused by my EIS consumption either...LOL

N.From: Reid Harvey 
Sent: Sunday, 17 December 2017 4:03:07 PM
To: Silverlist Post
Subject: Re: CS>Argyria question for Reid How I developed argyria?  I'm not 
entirely sure, but it was certainly not EIS; not 10 ppm negatively charged 
silver. 

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 7:15 PM, Marshalee Hallett  wrote:

Hi David,Just my 2 cents worth:I've been taking CS for 21 years now. (It cured 
me of Lyme disease, a Brown Recluse bite, prevented loads of colds and just a 
few weeks ago, Hantavirus!!)I'm still pink as a piggy!!Marshalee in Utah 

Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Dave Idd  wrote:


Hi Reid,
May I ask how you developed argyria? What kind of silver process you used, how 
much, how long, etc? 

I ask because I am seriously going to be publishing something on EIS in a 
medical journal so I need to follow up on any possible argyria cases from EIS. 
Thanks,David
p.s. Sorry if this message came  through twice. For some reason I don't think 
my first attempt came through (I clicked reply to a digest. Not sure why that 
did not work). 


  

Re: CS>Argyria question for Reid

[Dave AuBuchon]

For sure, I know all that. And I will be arguing in my publications that EIS is 
different. Obviously risk or argyria is low. But not zero. It's the very rare 
events that I need to follow up on and characterize. Not the people who have 
had no problems. 
And as Jason has noted, sliver sludge and floaters are trojan horses for 
uncontrolled doses of silver, which - depending on a persons process - could 
conceivably contribute to argyria, even if we are talking about EIS. 
David

Re: CS>Argyria question for Reid

[Neville]

David...I wrote to our TGA, which is the same mob as the FDA in the U.S several 
years back and they have *no* information or reports regarding EIS causing 
*anything*. Plenty of other rubbish they waffled on about but nothing about 
EIS, mainly because they don't even know what EIS is.  I've been taking 20-30mm 
10-15ppm my EIS for 15 odd years every morning and I ain't blue yet, or any 
other colour of the rainbow, besides normal human species colour . This is 
why we refer our product to EIS and not colloidal silver or CS, so as to 
distinguish it from that/those products. And my brain bleed 2 years ago wasn't 
caused by my EIS consumption either...LOL

N.

From: Reid Harvey 
Sent: Sunday, 17 December 2017 4:03:07 PM
To: Silverlist Post
Subject: Re: CS>Argyria question for Reid

How I developed argyria?  I'm not entirely sure, but it was certainly not EIS; 
not 10 ppm negatively charged silver.

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 7:15 PM, Marshalee Hallett 
mailto:utahpug...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi David,
Just my 2 cents worth:
I've been taking CS for 21 years now. (It cured me of Lyme disease, a Brown 
Recluse bite, prevented loads of colds and just a few weeks ago, Hantavirus!!)
I'm still pink as a piggy!!
Marshalee in Utah

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 16, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Dave Idd 
mailto:davidra...@yahoo.com>> wrote:

Hi Reid,

May I ask how you developed argyria? What kind of silver process you used, how 
much, how long, etc?

I ask because I am seriously going to be publishing something on EIS in a 
medical journal so I need to follow up on any possible argyria cases from EIS.

Thanks,
David

p.s. Sorry if this message came  through twice. For some reason I don't think 
my first attempt came through (I clicked reply to a digest. Not sure why that 
did not work).

CS>Argyria question for Reid

[Dave Idd]

Hi Reid,
I need to do my due diligence as this is actual scientific research I am 
talking about.  It's so rare to find someone with any kind of argyria at all. 
If you have the time, can you please tell me the following:
1. What is the source of the silver you were taking? A generator? A commercial 
product?2. If it was a generator, please tell me something about your setup? 
Were you measuring conductivity? Using distilled water, with no additions like 
salt, etc?3. How much EIS were you taking, and for how long roughly?4. Have you 
ever routinely taken niacin with flush?5. Have you taken other types of silver 
products like silver compounds of silver protein?
Do you have an educated guess about how you likely developed argyria? It must 
have been some kind of silver you were ingesting, right? 
Silver ions are positively charged, btw. 
Thanks,David
p.s. Sorry I couldn't figure out how to reply to the existing thread, so I 
started a new one. 

Re: CS>Argyria question for Reid

[Reid Harvey]

How I developed argyria?  I'm not entirely sure, but it was certainly not
EIS; not 10 ppm negatively charged silver.

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 7:15 PM, Marshalee Hallett 
wrote:

> Hi David,
> Just my 2 cents worth:
> I've been taking CS for 21 years now. (It cured me of Lyme disease, a
> Brown Recluse bite, prevented loads of colds and just a few weeks ago,
> Hantavirus!!)
> I'm still pink as a piggy!!
> Marshalee in Utah
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 16, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Dave Idd  wrote:
>
> Hi Reid,
>
> May I ask how you developed argyria? What kind of silver process you used,
> how much, how long, etc?
>
> I ask because I am seriously going to be publishing something on EIS in a
> medical journal so I need to follow up on any possible argyria cases from
> EIS.
>
> Thanks,
> David
>
> p.s. Sorry if this message came  through twice. For some reason I don't
> think my first attempt came through (I clicked reply to a digest. Not sure
> why that did not work).
>
>

CS>Argyria question for Reid

[Phil Morrison]

As posted previously on this forum, colloidal silver is the only form of
silver solution NOT deposited under the skin.

Reid better look elsewhere than properly made CS for the cause of his
Argyria condition.

http://www.electrobiotics.com/PDFs/BobBeckPaper.pdf

Re: CS>Argyria question for Reid

[Deborah Gerard]

 Well over ten years of making and taking for me...no vaccines for this old gal 
it's colloidal silver every day and no blue skin anywhere.
Debbie
On Saturday, December 16, 2017, 7:15:34 PM EST, Marshalee Hallett 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi David,Just my 2 cents worth:I've been taking CS for 21 years now. (It cured 
me of Lyme disease, a Brown Recluse bite, prevented loads of colds and just a 
few weeks ago, Hantavirus!!)I'm still pink as a piggy!!Marshalee in Utah 

Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Dave Idd  wrote:


Hi Reid,
May I ask how you developed argyria? What kind of silver process you used, how 
much, how long, etc? 

I ask because I am seriously going to be publishing something on EIS in a 
medical journal so I need to follow up on any possible argyria cases from EIS. 
Thanks,David
p.s. Sorry if this message came  through twice. For some reason I don't think 
my first attempt came through (I clicked reply to a digest. Not sure why that 
did not work). 
  

Re: CS>Argyria question for Reid

[Marshalee Hallett]

Hi David,
Just my 2 cents worth:
I've been taking CS for 21 years now. (It cured me of Lyme disease, a Brown 
Recluse bite, prevented loads of colds and just a few weeks ago, Hantavirus!!)
I'm still pink as a piggy!!
Marshalee in Utah 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 16, 2017, at 3:54 PM, Dave Idd  wrote:
> 
> Hi Reid,
> 
> May I ask how you developed argyria? What kind of silver process you used, 
> how much, how long, etc? 
> 
> I ask because I am seriously going to be publishing something on EIS in a 
> medical journal so I need to follow up on any possible argyria cases from 
> EIS. 
> 
> Thanks,
> David
> 
> p.s. Sorry if this message came  through twice. For some reason I don't think 
> my first attempt came through (I clicked reply to a digest. Not sure why that 
> did not work). 

CS>Argyria question for Reid

[Dave Idd]

Hi Reid,
May I ask how you developed argyria? What kind of silver process you used, how 
much, how long, etc? 

I ask because I am seriously going to be publishing something on EIS in a 
medical journal so I need to follow up on any possible argyria cases from EIS. 
Thanks,David
p.s. Sorry if this message came  through twice. For some reason I don't think 
my first attempt came through (I clicked reply to a digest. Not sure why that 
did not work). 

RE: CS>OT request (Reid: red laser pointer for argyria)

[Nenah Sylver]

Reid Harvey wrote:  I have argyria on my lower neck.  Can this device
[https://www.atlasnova.com/
<https://www.atlasnova.com/product/atlasnova-635nm-red-laser-pointer/>
product/atlasnova-635nm-red-laser-pointer/]

be used to restore my skin to its proper color and is it DYI?  Or what?
Thanks for the help!

==

Reid,

 

That's a great question, although I'm not sure what you mean by DYI. If you
mean "DIY," short for "Do It Yourself," then yes, assuming you can reach
your lower neck yourself.

 

Whatever area the light contacts, the signal goes into the cells. The light
also travels down the meridians from the original point of contact. An
LED/Laser signals the cells to start dumping wastes into the bloodstream and
to allow nutrients in.

 

So, it might help, although I cannot say for sure that it will. However, it
certainly couldn't hurt. At the very least, you'll have an instrument that
can be used for pain and healing.

 

Nenah

 

Nenah Sylver, PhD

author, The Rife Handbook

of Frequency Therapy and Holistic Health

now in all formats: hardcover, ebook for Mac, Kindle, iPad, Android 

DVDs of 2016 Rife and Electromedicine Conference Available NOW

w <http://www.nenahsylver.com/> ww.nenahsylver.com  

 

 

 

 

Re: CS>Cayenne and silver nasal spray argyria risk?

[André Juthe]

Dear David,
I have tried to also make my own cayenne nasal spray, but each time has the
spray stop functioning permanately and it does not matter if I flush it
with water, the refill nasal spray becomes broken. The cayenne pepper
breaks it in some way. From where did you buy the refill nasal spray i
order to fill it with cayenne pepper?  It must be a more robust version.
And how much pepper do you use?

Regards,
André


2014-05-21 6:30 GMT+02:00 Sandra George :

> I agree on the wasabi or orinental mustard - love both - they do a good
> job on the sinus 
> Glad to hear you are up and about as usual - have not heard back from
> those I was hoping would jump on
> board 
> Take good care of you
> Sandee🐬
> Sandra George
> Colloidal Silver Products
> Eye Drops & Topical Gel
> aliveagai...@yahoo.com
>
>
>
> On 21 May 2014, at 06:10, Ode Coyote  wrote:
>
>
>
>   Developing argyria requires that a threshhold amount of silver be
> retained.
> ANY form of silver.
> If the Cayenne isn't impacting your elimination system.
>
> I'd say, if anything...the cayenne flushes the silver out as it clears
> your sinuses.
>
> Maybe better than cayenne...wasabi or oriental mustard  [always clears my
> sinuses at the Chinese restaurant ]
>
> Ode
>
> At 04:13 PM 5/20/2014 -0700, you wrote:
> > I made myself a cayenne nasal spray that seems to finally be something
> that works to open up my nostrils before bed.  I made it in CS to help keep
> it sterile.  But now I am wondering if the silver may react with the
> cayenne in such a way that snorting the silver may be a long turn argyria
> risk?  Any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > David
>
>
>
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Re: CS>Cayenne and silver nasal spray argyria risk?

[André Juthe]

I do not think there is any risk, the amount is just to small. How much
cayenne powder do you have in one nasal spray?

/AJ


2014-05-21 12:40 GMT+02:00 Ode Coyote :

>
>
>   Developing argyria requires that a threshhold amount of silver be
> retained.
> ANY form of silver.
> If the Cayenne isn't impacting your elimination system.
>
> I'd say, if anything...the cayenne flushes the silver out as it clears
> your sinuses.
>
> Maybe better than cayenne...wasabi or oriental mustard  [always clears my
> sinuses at the Chinese restaurant ]
>
> Ode
>
> At 04:13 PM 5/20/2014 -0700, you wrote:
>
> I made myself a cayenne nasal spray that seems to finally be something
> that works to open up my nostrils before bed.  I made it in CS to help keep
> it sterile.  But now I am wondering if the silver may react with the
> cayenne in such a way that snorting the silver may be a long turn argyria
> risk?  Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> David
>
>
>
> --
><http://www.avast.com/>
>
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! 
> Antivirus<http://www.avast.com/>protection is active.
>
>

Re: CS>Cayenne and silver nasal spray argyria risk?

[Sandra George]

I agree on the wasabi or orinental mustard - love both - they do a good job on 
the sinus 
Glad to hear you are up and about as usual - have not heard back from those I 
was hoping would jump on 
board 
Take good care of you 
Sandee🐬
Sandra George
Colloidal Silver Products
Eye Drops & Topical Gel
aliveagai...@yahoo.com



On 21 May 2014, at 06:10, Ode Coyote  wrote:



  Developing argyria requires that a threshhold amount of silver be retained.
ANY form of silver.
If the Cayenne isn't impacting your elimination system.

I'd say, if anything...the cayenne flushes the silver out as it clears your 
sinuses.

Maybe better than cayenne...wasabi or oriental mustard  [always clears my 
sinuses at the Chinese restaurant ]

Ode

At 04:13 PM 5/20/2014 -0700, you wrote:
> I made myself a cayenne nasal spray that seems to finally be something that 
> works to open up my nostrils before bed.  I made it in CS to help keep it 
> sterile.  But now I am wondering if the silver may react with the cayenne in 
> such a way that snorting the silver may be a long turn argyria risk?  Any 
> ideas?
> 
> Thanks,
> David



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Re: CS>Cayenne and silver nasal spray argyria risk?

[Ode Coyote]

  Developing argyria requires that a threshhold amount of silver be retained.
ANY form of silver.
If the Cayenne isn't impacting your elimination system.

I'd say, if anything...the cayenne flushes the silver out as it clears your 
sinuses.


Maybe better than cayenne...wasabi or oriental mustard  [always clears my 
sinuses at the Chinese restaurant ]


Ode

At 04:13 PM 5/20/2014 -0700, you wrote:
I made myself a cayenne nasal spray that seems to finally be something 
that works to open up my nostrils before bed.  I made it in CS to help 
keep it sterile.  But now I am wondering if the silver may react with the 
cayenne in such a way that snorting the silver may be a long turn argyria 
risk?  Any ideas?


Thanks,
David



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CS>Cayenne and silver nasal spray argyria risk?

[David AuBuchon]

I made myself a cayenne nasal spray that seems to finally be something that 
works to open up my nostrils before bed.  I made it in CS to help keep it 
sterile.  But now I am wondering if the silver may react with the cayenne in 
such a way that snorting the silver may be a long turn argyria risk?  Any ideas?

Thanks,
David

CS>Argyria from using CS

[Harold]

Go to the Archives below and search,wealth of info.
Harold

http://www.mail-archive.com/silver-list@eskimo.com/maillist.html

CS>Re: Argyria... plus pottery water filters

[A. Reid Harvey]

Carlene,

Thanks! ...and your suggestions are of the very sort, for which I've been 
hoping.  I'll be sharing these with my dermatologist, who's doing the laser 
treatment.

Being in Kenya, in case he has to import these chelators, it'll be way easier 
for him, than it would be for me.  

You mentioned that you'd been on the List for twelve years, so you got on at 
just about the time that I got off.  

I was on from 2000 to 2004 during the four years that my family lived in 
Bangladesh and in Nepal.  (Our pottery filters were also something of a success 
in Nepal.)

Reid

Sent from my BlackBerry®

-Original Message-
From: Carlene Yasak 
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 12:01:29 
To: ; 
Subject: RE : Argyia and pottery water filters - posted by Reid Harvey




I'm responding to your post regarding argyia on the silverlist.  


Regarding heavy metal chelation, I still have several teeth with mercury 
amalgams and I regularly use natural chelators to eliminate mercury. I suggest 
that in addition to laser treatments you also help your body eliminate silver 
and other metals with a natural chelator like zeolite powder or serrapeptase.  
I found serrapeptase on Amazon in Europe at a reasonable price.  Zeolite is 
available everywhere ; it is the crushed mineral used in cat litter boxes.  
More finely crushed it is used to chelate heavy metals like mercury, silver, 
aluminum, etc from the body. It is also sold as activated zeolite powder which 
I assume seems it has radioactive properties.  (1 teaspoon three times a day in 
a glass of water--drink with a plastic straw because its gritty.) DMSA is used 
for the same purpose in medically supervised protocols or to self treat, but is 
suitable in the short term. You want something long term. 


You mention you are already working with clay. In France Monmorillonite clay 
(green clay) is also used as a chelator of heavy metals.  The clay is green 
because it contains plant fossils. One teaspoon of clay powder in a large glass 
of water (stir with a wooden or plastic spoon).  Do this in the evening.  In 
the morning, drink only the water and put the sediment  in your garden. This 
eliminates the risk of constipation from consuming clay and is an inexpensive 
long term treatment with many other health benefits.  Clay also has radioactive 
properties.  Have you tried testing clay mud packs on part of your body to see 
if they help?   


In TCM, lung toxicity would be a first consideration, then the liver, but the 
treatment would still address environmental factors.


Just a few thoughts I want to share with you. 
Wishing you well and looking forward to hearing of your progress on the list.


Best wishes,


Carlene 


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Re: CS>argyria, laser treatment and a guarantee?

[Rowena]

I imagine your question is directed at Reid Harvey; he mentioned in 
February that he had used a Mexican silver product used for treating 
salad vegetables, Microdyn.


Reid, do you think it is only the Microdyn that might be responsible, or 
do you think working with silver played a part? You also mentioned 
taking yellowish CS - how much of a problem is that thought to be 
generally? Did you use distilled water exclusively in Bangladesh, Nepal 
and Africa or locally available water (like the man in the US who made 
his with tap water, and admitted it, but quite liked being bluish and 
didn't really stop doing it.)


I remember when there was a lot of discussion of the silver water 
filters; I often wondered how things went with them. Congratulations on 
what you have achieved.


Rowena



"Does CS cause Argyria - turning gray?"
Neville Mun said in October last:
Well CS might, but what we produce won't.

Everyone may have differing opinions on this one, so I'll get in with 
mine . What we make is (1) NOT colloidal silver {CS}, and (2) It 
won't cause Argyria because it's predominantly Ag+ ions and not neutral 
charged particles which are in higher numbers by ratio and as such won't 
collect in tissue, besides it doesn't stay in the system long enough. 
What we make in the kitchen is a predominantly Ionic Silver Solution, 
and what particles there are, are far too small and in less quantity to 
cause any cosmetic issue.


Of course I can't speak for Dave, or anyone else who may have consumed 
or used large quantities for an extended amount of time, but if not 
consumed in large volumes or for an extended period of time as far as 
I'm concerned it won't cause Argyria. There has not been one case of the 
consumption or use of our product reported by the FDA or our TGA as 
having resulted in Argyria. Every report they waffle on about refer to 
that product called 'CS' or 'Colloidal Silver', and most refer to silver 
nitrates, silver acetates, solutions produced by people who are ignorant 
or wilfully go against the correct production procedure, or a product 
containing a form of stabiliser {usually higher ppm level products} and 
a host of other 'stuff?' of which is not what we produce.


To recap: My opinion...NO, EIS {Electrolytically Isolated Silver} or a 
'predominantly Ionic Silver Solution' will not cause Argyria.


and Steve G said:
Any time someone makes claims of argyria from colloidal silver there are 
a number of things that you need to take into consideration before 
concluding that CS was indeed the culprit.


1 - the term Colloidal Silver is sometimes used very loosely to describe 
any sort of silver-containing liquid compound regardless of how it was 
made. Only EIS, electrically isolated silver should be used.


2 - Did the person make their own CS? They must be careful to do it 
right. The jars used should be rinsed with distilled water, then 
emptied, then they can be filled with distilled water. Some people like 
to put tap water in to save on the small expense, or perhaps to put in a 
pinch of salt. Both of these strategies will result in a much quicker 
batch processing time, but will NOT result in real CS as there will be 
unpredictable silver salts created as a result. Paul Karason used salt 
as a primer for years for his 'CS' which has resulted in a deep blue 
skin condition. This stuff is not poisonous and IS effective and Paul 
has not stopped taking it. I guess once you turn blue why bother to stop 
taking that which keeps you healthy?


3 - How much CS/EIS is the person taking? Taking an ounce or so a day of 
10 - 20ppm should normally be adequate for protection. Taking large 
doses for serious illnesses such as lyme disease, syphilis, or other 
terrible diseases may be warranted in the short run, but a maintenance 
dose of 8 ounces or so a day seems to be overkill. Even properly 
prepared colloidal silver over time can, I understand, cause argyria in 
some people if taken long enough.


4 - Early warning signs. The first place a color change will show up 
normally, is in the 'moons' of the fingernail beds. Get in the habit of 
checking them out daily if you are taking a lot of CS. If they have 
started to turn grey or blue, it is time to reassess what you're doing.


Finally, I have read some time back in this mailing list about a guy who 
cured himself of a very serious late-stage 'fatal' illness (it may have 
been syphilis) by using megadoses of some silver tincture preparation 
over the course of several months. He regained his health, but turned 
blue. Argyria is supposedly permanent, but according to his tale, he 
reversed his blue skin condition by switching to pure EIS/CS for some 
time. Later, to prove a point, he took the silver tincture and resumed 
his argyria condition, then cured himself of it again via EIS/CS.


I haven'

Re: CS>argyria, laser treatment and a guarantee?

[André Juthe]

How much CS and in which form have you ingested on a daily basis?

/AJ


2013/6/1 Rowena 

> Well, if working on the water filters is involved in some bluish tinge in
> some lights to some people but not yourself, I would wear it as an
> occasionally possibly visible badge of honour, I think! It's certainly not
> broken, but who knows what unguaranteed laser treatment might do to fix
> something that might sometimes show - a bit - or might not.
> R
>
>
> --
> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
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Re: CS>argyria, laser treatment and a guarantee?

[Rowena]

Well, if working on the water filters is involved in some bluish tinge 
in some lights to some people but not yourself, I would wear it as an 
occasionally possibly visible badge of honour, I think! It's certainly 
not broken, but who knows what unguaranteed laser treatment might do to 
fix something that might sometimes show - a bit - or might not.

R


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CS>argyria, laser treatment and a guarantee?

[A. Reid Harvey]

Hi
Everybody,



Over the
last five years, I get occasional remarks, to the effect that my face is a dark
gray, or bluish color.  I’m recalling
that within the last year, or so, there have been comments on the list,
indicating reversal of this condition, through some sort of laser
treatment.  Can someone can tell me more
about this, so that I know what to expect?  I've written the list about this 
before, but now I'm actually in a position to do the treatment.


I’m now
working in East Africa, in Kenya, and I’ve recently located a dermatologist 
here,
who does treatment with a laser.  I’ve
made an appointment with him, first in his undertaking a biopsy.  He’s told me 
that thereafter, in the event
that this does prove to be argyria, he’ll need to do three sessions of the 
treatment,
over something like four to six weeks.


I’m a
little concerned, however, when he tells me that this treatment is not
guaranteed to work.  I suppose that I’m
ready to accept this possibility, however, it occurs to me to ask whether
anybody on the list can tell me a bit about what to expect?  For example, how 
does the laser treatment work?  I’d ask other questions, but I feel as if I’m
in the dark.  


There’s
also an issue, that when I look in the mirror, I don’t see the problem.  I do 
know that it’s there, however, because
people sometimes remark about this, out of the blue (Pun?).  Otherwise, I do 
feel that to some extent,
because I work with silver, my having argyria is an occupational hazard.  


As a
ceramic designer, I’ve developed several types of pottery water filters, and 
we’ve
been able to get five thousand of these into the shantytowns of Nairobi.  There 
are many millions here, who are daily
drinking pathogen contaminated water, and this is literally killing the small 
children, especially.  I want to believe that within a few
years, we can get clean water to everyone. 


Reid
Harvey


  

Re: CS>Was: Juice Fasts; Is: Argyria and Chelating

[PT Ferrance]

Hi Nenah,
Would you share that protocol either with the list or with me as well?  I have 
people who won't even start with EIS because of the threat of skin bluing.  If 
I 
can tell them I have a protocol to remedy this it might help.
Thanks.
PT (ptf2...@bellsouth.net)





From: Nenah Sylver 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, February 6, 2013 10:12:57 AM
Subject: RE: CS>Was: Juice Fasts; Is: Argyria and Chelating 

 
A. Reid Harvey wrote:There was a time, ten years ago, when I was a devotee of 
the Silver List, and I'm happy to be back.  At the time I was living in 
Bangladesh , dedicated to the development of a silver treated, pottery water 
filter, and now I'm in Kenya .  Regarding such filters, we're doing our best 
here, to implement their production and distribution. . . . I'm variously told 
that my face is somehow blue.  Back in Bangladesh , and subsequently in Nepal , 
and parts of Africa , I was making colloidal silver, using a 500ml. beaker, two 
silver wires, 1.2 cms. apart, and three nine volt batteries.  I seem to have 
made the mistake of drinking CS that was a bit yellowish. . . . Can anyone give 
me some ideas about chelation, for taking away the blue?  A friend had 
suggested 
that I drink distilled water, and I recalled that this is said to leach out 
various material.  Then I got to wondering whether it would have this affect, 
if 
I were to put it on a cloth, and onto my face?
===
Welcome back, Reid. I have always admired the work you are doing to help others.
 
I would NOT suggest drinking distilled water (DW) as a viable protocol for 
eliminating excess silver from the body. That alone is not enough to chelate 
out 
the unwanted silver, and will cause other problems long-term. We normally get 
many of our dietary minerals from the water we drink (which is a good thing). 
But if you’re on a DW regimen exclusively, if you don’t get enough minerals 
from 
food, you’ll eventually suffer from not having enough of the minerals you want. 
(This applies to everyone and not just to those who want to chelate silver out 
of their system.)
 
I will send you, off-list, a protocol that works.
 
All the best,
Nenah
 
Nenah Sylver, PhD
author, the NEW Rife Handbook (2011)
Holistic Handbook of Sauna Therapy(2004)
VoiceBio and Biomodulator certification
www.nenahsylver.com; www.rifehandbook.com

RE: CS>Was: Juice Fasts; Is: Argyria and Chelating

[Nenah Sylver]

A. Reid Harvey wrote: There was a time, ten years ago, when I was a devotee
of the Silver List, and I'm happy to be back.  At the time I was living in
Bangladesh, dedicated to the development of a silver treated, pottery water
filter, and now I'm in Kenya.  Regarding such filters, we're doing our best
here, to implement their production and distribution. . . . I'm variously
told that my face is somehow blue.  Back in Bangladesh, and subsequently in
Nepal, and parts of Africa, I was making colloidal silver, using a 500ml.
beaker, two silver wires, 1.2 cms. apart, and three nine volt batteries.  I
seem to have made the mistake of drinking CS that was a bit yellowish. . . .
Can anyone give me some ideas about chelation, for taking away the blue?  A
friend had suggested that I drink distilled water, and I recalled that this
is said to leach out various material.  Then I got to wondering whether it
would have this affect, if I were to put it on a cloth, and onto my face?

===

Welcome back, Reid. I have always admired the work you are doing to help
others.

 

I would NOT suggest drinking distilled water (DW) as a viable protocol for
eliminating excess silver from the body. That alone is not enough to chelate
out the unwanted silver, and will cause other problems long-term. We
normally get many of our dietary minerals from the water we drink (which is
a good thing). But if you're on a DW regimen exclusively, if you don't get
enough minerals from food, you'll eventually suffer from not having enough
of the minerals you want. (This applies to everyone and not just to those
who want to chelate silver out of their system.)

 

I will send you, off-list, a protocol that works.

 

All the best,

Nenah

 

Nenah Sylver, PhD

author, the NEW Rife Handbook (2011)

Holistic Handbook of Sauna Therapy (2004)

VoiceBio and Biomodulator certification

  www.nenahsylver.com;
 www.rifehandbook.com 

 

 
 

 

CS>argyria

[Edy Rayfield]

Are you sure your CS was ionic?  Particle size is very important!  I've 
consumed a lot of it and not had that problem.  I make it myself with Jim 
Meissner's generator.  I also nebulize it for much better absorption.

Edy

Re: CS>argyria "bath"

[marshall nelson]

I found this on the web:
Someone found it worked over an extended period of time.
A Cure for Argyria: The Formula
3 Vitamin E 1000 mg 100% Natural d-alpha Tocopheryl
1 Selenium 100mcg yeast free
2 vegetarian Vitamin C 1000 mg
1 teaspoon MSM organic
1 super potency Vitamin B 100,
1 teaspoon of Kelp powder:
Taken every morning with 2 16oz glasses of water, with close to 3/4 of a
gallon drinking water a day.


On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 4:19 PM, David AuBuchon wrote:

> I don't have argyria.  Just brainstorming.  EDTA chelation has not worked
> on argyria.
>
> On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 4:49 AM, Vigilius Haufniensis <
> thehatefuln...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> You need chelation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/25/2011 12:26 AM, David AuBuchon wrote:
>>
>>> Could you take a bath in something like peroxide or citric acid or
>>> idunno to treat argyria?
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
>>  Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org
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>>
>>
>>
>

Re: CS>argyria "bath"

[David AuBuchon]

I don't have argyria.  Just brainstorming.  EDTA chelation has not worked
on argyria.

On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 4:49 AM, Vigilius Haufniensis <
thehatefuln...@comcast.net> wrote:

> You need chelation.
>
>
>
>
> On 12/25/2011 12:26 AM, David AuBuchon wrote:
>
>> Could you take a bath in something like peroxide or citric acid or idunno
>> to treat argyria?
>>
>
>
> --
> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
>  Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org
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> List Owner: Mike Devour <mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com>
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>
>

Re: CS>argyria "bath"

[Vigilius Haufniensis]

You need chelation.



On 12/25/2011 12:26 AM, David AuBuchon wrote:
Could you take a bath in something like peroxide or citric acid or 
idunno to treat argyria?



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CS>argyria "bath"

[David AuBuchon]

Could you take a bath in something like peroxide or citric acid or idunno
to treat argyria?

RE: CS>Argyria

[Neville Munn]

Apparently if a product contains protein, if shaken vigorously it will froth?
N.

Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:25:38 -0800
Subject: Re: CS>Argyria
From: aubuchon.da...@gmail.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com

It can't contain protein.  It can't be a compound that has anything other than 
oxygen and hydrogen.  That means it must be the vacuum reduced EIS that you 
suggested, if I am not mistaken.  


On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Marshall  wrote:

On 12/7/2011 1:41 PM, David AuBuchon wrote:


If he does not know what is in it, how does he know it is 3,600PPM?  Maybe he 
can get lucky and find out his product is normal EIS?  Maybe he ought to get 
Franks to test a sample?


No, he had it tested, and knows what is in it, only hydrogen, oxygen, and 
silver, IE water and silver.  And the test confirmed the mfg. claim on potency. 
 EIS cannot be made that high, because the ionic portion is ab out 80%, and has 
a solubility of only 26 ppm (oxide plus hydroxide).  But colloidal silver can 
be made in much higher dosages by sputtering under a inert gas blanket, or by 
removing water from EIS.




Marshall





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Re: CS>Argyria

[David AuBuchon]

Sorry, brain fog...duh...or colloids.

Re: CS>Argyria

[David AuBuchon]

It can't contain protein.  It can't be a compound that has anything other
than oxygen and hydrogen.  That means it must be the vacuum reduced EIS
that you suggested, if I am not mistaken.

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Marshall  wrote:

> On 12/7/2011 1:41 PM, David AuBuchon wrote:
>
>> If he does not know what is in it, how does he know it is 3,600PPM?
>>  Maybe he can get lucky and find out his product is normal EIS?  Maybe he
>> ought to get Franks to test a sample?
>>
> No, he had it tested, and knows what is in it, only hydrogen, oxygen, and
> silver, IE water and silver.  And the test confirmed the mfg. claim on
> potency.  EIS cannot be made that high, because the ionic portion is ab out
> 80%, and has a solubility of only 26 ppm (oxide plus hydroxide).  But
> colloidal silver can be made in much higher dosages by sputtering under a
> inert gas blanket, or by removing water from EIS.
>
> Marshall
>
>
>
> --
> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
>  Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org
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> Unsubscribe:
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>

Re: CS>Argyria

[Marshall]

On 12/7/2011 1:41 PM, David AuBuchon wrote:
If he does not know what is in it, how does he know it is 3,600PPM?  
Maybe he can get lucky and find out his product is normal EIS?  Maybe 
he ought to get Franks to test a sample?
No, he had it tested, and knows what is in it, only hydrogen, oxygen, 
and silver, IE water and silver.  And the test confirmed the mfg. claim 
on potency.  EIS cannot be made that high, because the ionic portion is 
ab out 80%, and has a solubility of only 26 ppm (oxide plus hydroxide).  
But colloidal silver can be made in much higher dosages by sputtering 
under a inert gas blanket, or by removing water from EIS.


Marshall


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Re: CS>Argyria

[David AuBuchon]

And in another PDF:

"Base: 0.36% colloidal silver"
...
"Appearance/color: liquid, dark brown
Odor: none
pH: 7
Emulation point: 201.2 F
Solubility in water: extremely soluble
Vapor pressure: N/A
Evaporation rate: N/A"
...
"One drop of nutrasilver per liter of water contains only 0.090mg of
silver"  (this is inconsistent with 3,600PPM.  He may have had a different
product back then though)

Re: CS>Argyria

[David AuBuchon]

This was in one of their PDF test reports:

"Ionized silver compound in a double colloidal solution
Active ingredient: Ionized silver 0.36%"




On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:44 AM, David AuBuchon wrote:

> He should probably update his site to say "impossible to get argyria when
> used as directed".
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:41 AM, David AuBuchon 
> wrote:
>
>> If he does not know what is in it, how does he know it is 3,600PPM?
>> Maybe he can get lucky and find out his product is normal EIS?  Maybe he
>> ought to get Franks to test a sample?
>>
>
>

Re: CS>Argyria

[David AuBuchon]

He should probably update his site to say "impossible to get argyria when
used as directed".

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:41 AM, David AuBuchon wrote:

> If he does not know what is in it, how does he know it is 3,600PPM?  Maybe
> he can get lucky and find out his product is normal EIS?  Maybe he ought to
> get Franks to test a sample?
>

Re: CS>Argyria

[David AuBuchon]

If he does not know what is in it, how does he know it is 3,600PPM?  Maybe
he can get lucky and find out his product is normal EIS?  Maybe he ought to
get Franks to test a sample?

Re: CS>Argyria

[Anthony Cullingworth]

HAHA, I think that concentration of Chicken-MC-Nugget may cause Argyria, or 
liver failure.  Can't remember which.
Anthony 

  - Original Message - 
  From: David AuBuchon 
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:21 PM
  Subject: Re: CS>Argyria


  2 PPChicken-mc-nugget.



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Re: CS>Argyria

[David AuBuchon]

2 PPChicken-mc-nugget.

Re: CS>Argyria

[Anthony Cullingworth]

Wouldn't 1 silver dollar be 1ppX where X=the number of parts of the substance 
you are swallowing the dollar with?

Anthony 

  - Original Message - 
  From: Marshall 
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 10:11 AM
  Subject: Re: CS>Argyria


  Well, it depends on the form of the silver.  If you swallow a silver dollar, 
that is 1,000,000 ppm, but will not give you argyria.  Apparently he is doing 
the marketing, and is purchasing it from a manufacturer who will not tell him 
how it is made.  He said he has done tests on it, and found that the only two 
things it contains are silver and water.  I would have normally expected such a 
high ppm silver to be either msp, or silver compounds, such as silver nitrate 
or citrate.  But if it is accurate that there are no other elements other than 
water and silver, then it must be either virtually 100% colloid (mfg likely by 
sputtering under a non-reactive gas blanket), or vacuum reduction of EIS to 
high ppm.

  If it is 100% colloid, I would have to agree, it could not cause argyria, 
since argyria is caused by silver compounds reducing on particles in the skin, 
but colloid is already particle, and cannot be further reduced.  If it is made 
by volume reduction, then what we have there would be colloidal silver 
particles clumped together with silver oxide "glue".  In that case one drop of 
his product would be equivalent to 360 drops of EIS or slightly over half an 
ounce of 10 ppm EIS.  In that case it would be possible to take really large 
amounts of the equivalent of 10 ppm EIS.

  Unfortunately with full information on what his product is, it is hard to say 
how likely it is it would cause argyria.

  Marshall

  On 12/2/2011 6:37 PM, Jason R Eaton wrote: 
Hi all:

...with a silver product of 3600 PPM and a claim that such a product cannot 
cause argyria (which is not true), he has opened himself up to a whole host of 
problems, sadly, especially since he claims that it is impossible to get 
argyria with his product.  On his website under lab reports, he says 
"Impossible to get argyria".  I don't know anybody credible that would testify 
that it is impossible to get argyria with a 3600 PPM product.

~Jason



- Original Message - 
  From: David AuBuchon 
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 14:58
  Subject: Re: CS>Argyria


  She has actually sued already?

  He himself could also himself present the evidence of doses of EIS that 
don't cause argyria, and then note how the recommended use on his product falls 
way below that.  The EPA study and the Indian diet of silver foil on sweets are 
the two relevant things.  Also, he could argue that since argyria develops 
gradually, why did she not stop much sooner when she first noticed the argyria. 
 

  Maybe that doctor could testify?

  Hopefully he knows enough to show that argyria caused historically by 
other types of silver does not apply to EIS, as would certainly come up in the 
case.  




  On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Marshall  wrote:

I just had a call from Russell, who owns Neutrasilver.  He has some 
lady who apparently painted her body with silver and exposed herself to the sun 
on purpose to try and get argyria, telling one of her doctors that she is going 
to be a millionaire after the lawsuit.  He is looking for someone who knows 
what the heck they are talking about, and will not prostitute themselves out to 
the FDA or anyone else for money who can testify in his behalf.

Anyway, if anyone on this list has the credentials to testify, or knows 
someone who does, that is willing to tell the truth, let me know.  I was 
thinking of maybe Brooks Bradley, but don't know how to locate him.

Thanks,

Marshall


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Re: CS>Argyria

[Marshall]

Well, it depends on the form of the silver.  If you swallow a silver 
dollar, that is 1,000,000 ppm, but will not give you argyria.  
Apparently he is doing the marketing, and is purchasing it from a 
manufacturer who will not tell him how it is made.  He said he has done 
tests on it, and found that the only two things it contains are silver 
and water.  I would have normally expected such a high ppm silver to be 
either msp, or silver compounds, such as silver nitrate or citrate.  But 
if it is accurate that there are no other elements other than water and 
silver, then it must be either virtually 100% colloid (mfg likely by 
sputtering under a non-reactive gas blanket), or vacuum reduction of EIS 
to high ppm.


If it is 100% colloid, I would have to agree, it could not cause 
argyria, since argyria is caused by silver compounds reducing on 
particles in the skin, but colloid is already particle, and cannot be 
further reduced.  If it is made by volume reduction, then what we have 
there would be colloidal silver particles clumped together with silver 
oxide "glue".  In that case one drop of his product would be equivalent 
to 360 drops of EIS or slightly over half an ounce of 10 ppm EIS.  In 
that case it would be possible to take really large amounts of the 
equivalent of 10 ppm EIS.


Unfortunately with full information on what his product is, it is hard 
to say how likely it is it would cause argyria.


Marshall

On 12/2/2011 6:37 PM, Jason R Eaton wrote:

Hi all:
...with a silver product of 3600 PPM and a claim that such a product 
cannot cause argyria (which is not true), he has opened himself up to 
a whole host of problems, sadly, especially since he claims that it is 
impossible to get argyria with his product.  On his website under lab 
reports, he says "Impossible to get argyria".  I don't know anybody 
credible that would testify that it is impossible to get argyria with 
a 3600 PPM product.

~Jason
- Original Message -

*From:* David AuBuchon <mailto:aubuchon.da...@gmail.com>
*To:* silver-list@eskimo.com <mailto:silver-list@eskimo.com>
*Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2011 14:58
*Subject:* Re: CS>Argyria

She has actually sued already?

He himself could also himself present the evidence of doses of EIS
that don't cause argyria, and then note how the recommended use on
his product falls way below that.  The EPA study and the Indian
diet of silver foil on sweets are the two relevant things.  Also,
he could argue that since argyria develops gradually, why did she
not stop much sooner when she first noticed the argyria.

Maybe that doctor could testify?

Hopefully he knows enough to show that argyria caused historically
by other types of silver does not apply to EIS, as would certainly
come up in the case.



On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Marshall mailto:mdud...@king-cart.com>> wrote:

I just had a call from Russell, who owns Neutrasilver.  He has
some lady who apparently painted her body with silver and
exposed herself to the sun on purpose to try and get argyria,
telling one of her doctors that she is going to be a
millionaire after the lawsuit.  He is looking for someone who
knows what the heck they are talking about, and will not
prostitute themselves out to the FDA or anyone else for money
who can testify in his behalf.

Anyway, if anyone on this list has the credentials to testify,
or knows someone who does, that is willing to tell the truth,
let me know.  I was thinking of maybe Brooks Bradley, but
don't know how to locate him.

Thanks,

Marshall


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RE: CS>Re: argyria.

[Neville Munn]

>From the vast knowledge base of suitably experienced and well read individuals 
>or collectives on here regarding the subject of this silver 'stuff' we produce 
>using LVDC, could someone define what *actually* constitutes a 'colloidal 
>silver' product?  And for clarification, what voltage would be required in 
>producing such a product?
>From all reputably legitimate literature I've researched over the years the 
>product produced by LVDC does NOT constitute what is very loosely termed 
>'colloidal silver'.As such, whoever markets a product stating 'colloidal 
>silver' on the label should also include information relating to the 
>ion/particle ratio of silver in that product {among other things} because from 
>all the literature I've ever found, *THAT* is the one and only defining point 
>which gives rise to the term 'colloidal silver'.  From this information it is 
>not possible to produce a 'colloidal silver' solution using LVDC.
I have little doubt that by far the majority of EIS users/consumers in ANY 
country on this planet would be using/consuming their own LVDC produced 
products and only a minority statistically would be using/consuming the shop 
bought product.  The ion/particle ratio is the defining point.  So the first 
question I would ask is..."Are those products produced using LVDC or HVAC?"  Of 
course I'm ignoring for the moment whatever else may be in those products.
It's not the authorities who are the enemy of the silver user/consumer, they 
haven't a clue and don't wanna know, it's the many and varied marketers out 
there who are the enemies of the consumer with their misleading sales blurbs.  
Consumers should be more concerned about what's *NOT* printed on the label 
rather than what *IS* printed on that label!
N.

> From: ja...@eytonsearth.org
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: CS>Re: argyria.
> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 21:01:37 -0800
> 
> Hi David:
> 
> Agreed.  It's really sad to see people even attempting such a thing as 
> purposefully trying to enduce "harm" for the sake of a lawsuit, but with 
> information such as is presenting on the nutrasilver website, it is nearly 
> an invitation for trouble.
> 
> I actually get about two requests a year to testify against silver companies 
> (they are always companies mis-representing highly concentrated silver 
> products) from lawyer firms.  I never know what happens with potential 
> cases, because I have no interest in involving myself in civil cases, and 
> although I doubt there are many individuals out there that know more about 
> argyria, I don't consider myself a "qualified" expert at any rate.
> 
> ~Jason
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Alchemysa" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 19:06
> Subject: CS>Re: argyria.
> 
> 
> http://www.nutrasilver.com/
> 
> "At 3,600 PPM, NutraSilver® is unlike store-bought or home-made
> colloidal silver."
> 
> First thing to know is, has she actually got argyria?
> 
> And if its as you described wouldn't that just get thrown out of
> court? Its clearly a case of deliberate self harm. Like jumping in
> front of a car to claim the insurance, although, its probably stupid
> to say this on his website...
> 
> "Impossible to get argyria (turning blue)"
> 
> and this
> 
> "An Estimated 10 Million Americans Consume Colloidal Silver Daily"
> 
> Sounds like he's a bit loose with his facts to me.
> 
> 
> David
> 

> 
  

Re: CS>Argyria

[Vigilius Haufniensis]

Sounds like a stooge.



On 12/2/2011 5:55 PM, David AuBuchon wrote:
Ouch, if it is not EIS, then that is a problem.  I guess his best 
direction is to show that the girl did it on purpose.


On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Jason R Eaton <mailto:ja...@eytonsearth.org>> wrote:


Hi all:
...with a silver product of 3600 PPM and a claim that such a
product cannot cause argyria (which is not true), he has opened
himself up to a whole host of problems, sadly, especially since he
claims that it is impossible to get argyria with his product.  On
his website under lab reports, he says "Impossible to get
argyria".  I don't know anybody credible that would testify that
it is impossible to get argyria with a 3600 PPM product.
~Jason
- Original Message -

*From:* David AuBuchon <mailto:aubuchon.da...@gmail.com>
*To:* silver-list@eskimo.com <mailto:silver-list@eskimo.com>
*Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2011 14:58
*Subject:* Re: CS>Argyria

She has actually sued already?

He himself could also himself present the evidence of doses of
EIS that don't cause argyria, and then note how the
recommended use on his product falls way below that.  The EPA
study and the Indian diet of silver foil on sweets are the two
relevant things.  Also, he could argue that since argyria
develops gradually, why did she not stop much sooner when she
first noticed the argyria.

Maybe that doctor could testify?

    Hopefully he knows enough to show that argyria caused
historically by other types of silver does not apply to EIS,
as would certainly come up in the case.



On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Marshall
mailto:mdud...@king-cart.com>> wrote:

I just had a call from Russell, who owns Neutrasilver.  He
has some lady who apparently painted her body with silver
and exposed herself to the sun on purpose to try and get
argyria, telling one of her doctors that she is going to
be a millionaire after the lawsuit.  He is looking for
someone who knows what the heck they are talking about,
and will not prostitute themselves out to the FDA or
anyone else for money who can testify in his behalf.

Anyway, if anyone on this list has the credentials to
testify, or knows someone who does, that is willing to
tell the truth, let me know.  I was thinking of maybe
Brooks Bradley, but don't know how to locate him.

Thanks,

Marshall


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Colloidal Silver.
 Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org

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Re: CS>Re: argyria.

[Jason R Eaton]

Hi David:

Agreed.  It's really sad to see people even attempting such a thing as 
purposefully trying to enduce "harm" for the sake of a lawsuit, but with 
information such as is presenting on the nutrasilver website, it is nearly 
an invitation for trouble.


I actually get about two requests a year to testify against silver companies 
(they are always companies mis-representing highly concentrated silver 
products) from lawyer firms.  I never know what happens with potential 
cases, because I have no interest in involving myself in civil cases, and 
although I doubt there are many individuals out there that know more about 
argyria, I don't consider myself a "qualified" expert at any rate.


~Jason

- Original Message - 
From: "Alchemysa" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 19:06
Subject: CS>Re: argyria.


http://www.nutrasilver.com/

"At 3,600 PPM, NutraSilver® is unlike store-bought or home-made
colloidal silver."

First thing to know is, has she actually got argyria?

And if its as you described wouldn't that just get thrown out of
court? Its clearly a case of deliberate self harm. Like jumping in
front of a car to claim the insurance, although, its probably stupid
to say this on his website...

"Impossible to get argyria (turning blue)"

and this

"An Estimated 10 Million Americans Consume Colloidal Silver Daily"

Sounds like he's a bit loose with his facts to me.


David



From: Marshall 
Date: 3 December 2011 9:11:48 AM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: CS>Argyria


I just had a call from Russell, who owns Neutrasilver.  He has some  lady 
who apparently painted her body with silver and exposed  herself to the 
sun on purpose to try and get argyria, telling one  of her doctors that 
she is going to be a millionaire after the  lawsuit.  He is looking for 
someone who knows what the heck they  are talking about, and will not 
prostitute themselves out to the  FDA or anyone else for money who can 
testify in his behalf.


Anyway, if anyone on this list has the credentials to testify, or  knows 
someone who does, that is willing to tell the truth, let me  know.  I was 
thinking of maybe Brooks Bradley, but don't know how  to locate him.


Thanks,

Marshall






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 Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org

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CS>Re: argyria.

[Alchemysa]

http://www.nutrasilver.com/

"At 3,600 PPM, NutraSilver® is unlike store-bought or home-made  
colloidal silver."


First thing to know is, has she actually got argyria?

And if its as you described wouldn't that just get thrown out of  
court? Its clearly a case of deliberate self harm. Like jumping in  
front of a car to claim the insurance, although, its probably stupid  
to say this on his website...


"Impossible to get argyria (turning blue)"

and this

"An Estimated 10 Million Americans Consume Colloidal Silver Daily"

Sounds like he's a bit loose with his facts to me.


David



From: Marshall 
Date: 3 December 2011 9:11:48 AM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: CS>Argyria


I just had a call from Russell, who owns Neutrasilver.  He has some  
lady who apparently painted her body with silver and exposed  
herself to the sun on purpose to try and get argyria, telling one  
of her doctors that she is going to be a millionaire after the  
lawsuit.  He is looking for someone who knows what the heck they  
are talking about, and will not prostitute themselves out to the  
FDA or anyone else for money who can testify in his behalf.


Anyway, if anyone on this list has the credentials to testify, or  
knows someone who does, that is willing to tell the truth, let me  
know.  I was thinking of maybe Brooks Bradley, but don't know how  
to locate him.


Thanks,

Marshall






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 Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org

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Re: CS>Argyria

[anthony . aquifer]

Impossible when used properly or as directed perhaps?
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld

-Original Message-
From: "Jason R Eaton" 
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:37:04 
To: 
Reply-To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CS>Argyria

Hi all:

...with a silver product of 3600 PPM and a claim that such a product cannot 
cause argyria (which is not true), he has opened himself up to a whole host of 
problems, sadly, especially since he claims that it is impossible to get 
argyria with his product.  On his website under lab reports, he says 
"Impossible to get argyria".  I don't know anybody credible that would testify 
that it is impossible to get argyria with a 3600 PPM product.

~Jason



- Original Message - 
  From: David AuBuchon 
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 14:58
  Subject: Re: CS>Argyria


  She has actually sued already?

  He himself could also himself present the evidence of doses of EIS that don't 
cause argyria, and then note how the recommended use on his product falls way 
below that.  The EPA study and the Indian diet of silver foil on sweets are the 
two relevant things.  Also, he could argue that since argyria develops 
gradually, why did she not stop much sooner when she first noticed the argyria. 
 

  Maybe that doctor could testify?

  Hopefully he knows enough to show that argyria caused historically by other 
types of silver does not apply to EIS, as would certainly come up in the case.  




  On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Marshall  wrote:

I just had a call from Russell, who owns Neutrasilver.  He has some lady 
who apparently painted her body with silver and exposed herself to the sun on 
purpose to try and get argyria, telling one of her doctors that she is going to 
be a millionaire after the lawsuit.  He is looking for someone who knows what 
the heck they are talking about, and will not prostitute themselves out to the 
FDA or anyone else for money who can testify in his behalf.

Anyway, if anyone on this list has the credentials to testify, or knows 
someone who does, that is willing to tell the truth, let me know.  I was 
thinking of maybe Brooks Bradley, but don't know how to locate him.

Thanks,

Marshall


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 Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org

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 <mailto:silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: CS>Argyria

[Jonathan B. Britten]

John Grisham has a recent collection of stories,  Ford County.   

One of these focuses on experienced legal grifters who work the nursing homes 
for big payouts.  

It's a troubling story.   People who game the system make life miserable for 
everyone.  

http://www.amazon.com/Ford-County-Stories-John-Grisham/dp/0385532458

Greg Caton of altcancer.com claims to have been targeted by a person of this 
type.  

The person suing can get a lawyer working on a percentage; it costs nothing up 
front. 

The target of the suit has to shell out for his/her defense attorney. 




On 2011/12/03, at 8:55, David AuBuchon wrote:

> Ouch, if it is not EIS, then that is a problem.  I guess his best direction 
> is to show that the girl did it on purpose.  
> 
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Jason R Eaton  wrote:
> Hi all:
>  
> ...with a silver product of 3600 PPM and a claim that such a product cannot 
> cause argyria (which is not true), he has opened himself up to a whole host 
> of problems, sadly, especially since he claims that it is impossible to get 
> argyria with his product.  On his website under lab reports, he says 
> "Impossible to get argyria".  I don't know anybody credible that would 
> testify that it is impossible to get argyria with a 3600 PPM product.
>  
> ~Jason
>  
>  
>  
> - Original Message -
> From: David AuBuchon
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 14:58
> Subject: Re: CS>Argyria
> 
> She has actually sued already?
> 
> He himself could also himself present the evidence of doses of EIS that don't 
> cause argyria, and then note how the recommended use on his product falls way 
> below that.  The EPA study and the Indian diet of silver foil on sweets are 
> the two relevant things.  Also, he could argue that since argyria develops 
> gradually, why did she not stop much sooner when she first noticed the 
> argyria.  
> 
> Maybe that doctor could testify?
> 
> Hopefully he knows enough to show that argyria caused historically by other 
> types of silver does not apply to EIS, as would certainly come up in the 
> case.  
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Marshall  wrote:
> I just had a call from Russell, who owns Neutrasilver.  He has some lady who 
> apparently painted her body with silver and exposed herself to the sun on 
> purpose to try and get argyria, telling one of her doctors that she is going 
> to be a millionaire after the lawsuit.  He is looking for someone who knows 
> what the heck they are talking about, and will not prostitute themselves out 
> to the FDA or anyone else for money who can testify in his behalf.
> 
> Anyway, if anyone on this list has the credentials to testify, or knows 
> someone who does, that is willing to tell the truth, let me know.  I was 
> thinking of maybe Brooks Bradley, but don't know how to locate him.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Marshall
> 
> 
> --
> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
>  Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org
> 
> Unsubscribe:
>  <mailto:silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com?subject=unsubscribe>
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> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: CS>Argyria

[David AuBuchon]

Ouch, if it is not EIS, then that is a problem.  I guess his best direction
is to show that the girl did it on purpose.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Jason R Eaton  wrote:

> **
> Hi all:
>
> ...with a silver product of 3600 PPM and a claim that such a product
> cannot cause argyria (which is not true), he has opened himself up to a
> whole host of problems, sadly, especially since he claims that it is
> impossible to get argyria with his product.  On his website under lab
> reports, he says "Impossible to get argyria".  I don't know anybody
> credible that would testify that it is impossible to get argyria with a
> 3600 PPM product.
>
> ~Jason
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
>
> *From:* David AuBuchon 
> *To:* silver-list@eskimo.com
> *Sent:* Friday, December 02, 2011 14:58
> *Subject:* Re: CS>Argyria
>
> She has actually sued already?
>
> He himself could also himself present the evidence of doses of EIS that
> don't cause argyria, and then note how the recommended use on his product
> falls way below that.  The EPA study and the Indian diet of silver foil on
> sweets are the two relevant things.  Also, he could argue that since
> argyria develops gradually, why did she not stop much sooner when she first
> noticed the argyria.
>
> Maybe that doctor could testify?
>
> Hopefully he knows enough to show that argyria caused historically by
> other types of silver does not apply to EIS, as would certainly come up in
> the case.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Marshall  wrote:
>
>> I just had a call from Russell, who owns Neutrasilver.  He has some lady
>> who apparently painted her body with silver and exposed herself to the sun
>> on purpose to try and get argyria, telling one of her doctors that she is
>> going to be a millionaire after the lawsuit.  He is looking for someone who
>> knows what the heck they are talking about, and will not prostitute
>> themselves out to the FDA or anyone else for money who can testify in his
>> behalf.
>>
>> Anyway, if anyone on this list has the credentials to testify, or knows
>> someone who does, that is willing to tell the truth, let me know.  I was
>> thinking of maybe Brooks Bradley, but don't know how to locate him.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Marshall
>>
>>
>> --
>> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
>>  Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org
>>
>> Unsubscribe:
>>  <mailto:silver-list-request@**eskimo.com
>> ?subject=**unsubscribe>
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>> >
>> List Owner: Mike Devour <mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: CS>Argyria

[Jason R Eaton]

Hi all:

...with a silver product of 3600 PPM and a claim that such a product cannot 
cause argyria (which is not true), he has opened himself up to a whole host of 
problems, sadly, especially since he claims that it is impossible to get 
argyria with his product.  On his website under lab reports, he says 
"Impossible to get argyria".  I don't know anybody credible that would testify 
that it is impossible to get argyria with a 3600 PPM product.

~Jason



- Original Message - 
  From: David AuBuchon 
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 14:58
  Subject: Re: CS>Argyria


  She has actually sued already?

  He himself could also himself present the evidence of doses of EIS that don't 
cause argyria, and then note how the recommended use on his product falls way 
below that.  The EPA study and the Indian diet of silver foil on sweets are the 
two relevant things.  Also, he could argue that since argyria develops 
gradually, why did she not stop much sooner when she first noticed the argyria. 
 

  Maybe that doctor could testify?

  Hopefully he knows enough to show that argyria caused historically by other 
types of silver does not apply to EIS, as would certainly come up in the case.  




  On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Marshall  wrote:

I just had a call from Russell, who owns Neutrasilver.  He has some lady 
who apparently painted her body with silver and exposed herself to the sun on 
purpose to try and get argyria, telling one of her doctors that she is going to 
be a millionaire after the lawsuit.  He is looking for someone who knows what 
the heck they are talking about, and will not prostitute themselves out to the 
FDA or anyone else for money who can testify in his behalf.

Anyway, if anyone on this list has the credentials to testify, or knows 
someone who does, that is willing to tell the truth, let me know.  I was 
thinking of maybe Brooks Bradley, but don't know how to locate him.

Thanks,

Marshall


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 Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org

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Re: CS>Argyria

[David AuBuchon]

She has actually sued already?

He himself could also himself present the evidence of doses of EIS that
don't cause argyria, and then note how the recommended use on his product
falls way below that.  The EPA study and the Indian diet of silver foil on
sweets are the two relevant things.  Also, he could argue that since
argyria develops gradually, why did she not stop much sooner when she first
noticed the argyria.

Maybe that doctor could testify?

Hopefully he knows enough to show that argyria caused historically by other
types of silver does not apply to EIS, as would certainly come up in the
case.



On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Marshall  wrote:

> I just had a call from Russell, who owns Neutrasilver.  He has some lady
> who apparently painted her body with silver and exposed herself to the sun
> on purpose to try and get argyria, telling one of her doctors that she is
> going to be a millionaire after the lawsuit.  He is looking for someone who
> knows what the heck they are talking about, and will not prostitute
> themselves out to the FDA or anyone else for money who can testify in his
> behalf.
>
> Anyway, if anyone on this list has the credentials to testify, or knows
> someone who does, that is willing to tell the truth, let me know.  I was
> thinking of maybe Brooks Bradley, but don't know how to locate him.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marshall
>
>
> --
> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
>  Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org
>
> Unsubscribe:
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> ?subject=**unsubscribe>
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> >
> List Owner: Mike Devour <mailto:mdev...@eskimo.com>
>
>
>

CS>Argyria

[Marshall]

I just had a call from Russell, who owns Neutrasilver.  He has some lady 
who apparently painted her body with silver and exposed herself to the 
sun on purpose to try and get argyria, telling one of her doctors that 
she is going to be a millionaire after the lawsuit.  He is looking for 
someone who knows what the heck they are talking about, and will not 
prostitute themselves out to the FDA or anyone else for money who can 
testify in his behalf.


Anyway, if anyone on this list has the credentials to testify, or knows 
someone who does, that is willing to tell the truth, let me know.  I was 
thinking of maybe Brooks Bradley, but don't know how to locate him.


Thanks,

Marshall


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RE: CS>Argyria risk...

[Neville Munn]

No worries Mike.  It's OK, they only do it on the odd occasion when the need 
arises, in fact one of them hasn't had a need to use it since she began taking 
a daily amount with me {using more appropriate equipment and production methods 
of course}.

 

I do have a philosophy though that if the need should arise {in an emergency 
type situation} hitting it hard and fast sometimes I believe is 
necessary/preferable.  The solution in question may contain a high total silver 
count {not forgetting whatever else may be present in that rainwater to form 
compounds} but the silver will be mostly ionic immediately after production 
which means it would/should pass through the body rather quickly, hence the 
rapid flushing of the plumbing and theoretically equally rapid elimination of 
silver and any compound/s with it.

 

I consider there are two types of EIS, a high ionic solution and a more 
stabilized particulate solution, and I've always believed both can be used with 
efficacy in their own right for a particular circumstance.

 

The point you make about the salt etc is perfectly valid of course as I'm fully 
aware, but I believe most people who make this stuff today would/should have 
learnt *something* from those who have gone before us, if not, then they 
haven't read appropriate literature.

 

Finally  I think when people write about using EIS for anything they should 
be including what *type* of solution they used, in my mind there is a big 
difference.  That was the point I was trying to make about UTI's, praps 
'colloidal silver' was being used whereas a high ionic solution {using DW if 
preferred} may have been more efficacious, that certainly appears to be the 
case from my observation.  I'm also interested in what effect the pH level 
*immediately* after production {higher base or alkaline?} as opposed to the pH 
level some time later when that solution has stabilized {back to normal or 
around 7.0} has on efficacy as well...If any?  I'm developing my own thoughts 
on that as well.  Praps someone could offer their thoughts on this?

 

N.

 
> From: mdev...@eskimo.com
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:20:23 -0500
> Subject: CS>Argyria risk...
> 
> Neville,
> 
> You write:
> 
> > ... I know two women who swear by EIS/CS... 
> > 
> > They drag out an old battery unit, 250-300ml glass of rainwater, 3-5
> > minutes brewing {analysed at 40+ppm} drinking it straight down
> > immediately after brewing...issue 'terminated'. They *may* make and
> > take a second glass at the end of the day, to be sure, to be sure.
> 
> 
> But the bottom line is, you might want to suggest to them, Neville, 
> that they should not use that kind of CS on a daily basis but only when 
> needed, just as you described that they do now, and be sure they have 
> an adequate amount of selenium and vitamin E in their diet or 
> supplement program.
> 
> Be well,
> 
> Mike D.
> 
> [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian]
> [mdev...@eskimo.com ]
> [Speaking only for myself... ]
> 
> 
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> 
  

CS>Argyria risk...

[M. G. Devour]

Neville,

You write:

> ... I know two women who swear by EIS/CS... 
> 
> They drag out an old battery unit, 250-300ml glass of rainwater, 3-5
> minutes brewing {analysed at 40+ppm} drinking it straight down
> immediately after brewing...issue 'terminated'.  They *may* make and
> take a second glass at the end of the day, to be sure, to be sure.

I met a couple, farmers, who took a daily glass of CS made using a 
'pinch of salt' as 'starter' in a home made 3-nines generator, and did 
this for several years. They learned about CS during the run-up to Y2K, 
and followed exactly instructions that were widely disseminated on 
survival-related sites back then.

Those of you who remember that period will recall that we were actively 
trying to get the word out to people that the no-salt, lower 
concentration approach to making CS was as effective and much safer.

Well, we were right. When I met these folks in '06, they were both 
suffering from a cosmetically obvious case of argyria on their faces 
and hands. She had a mask-like discoloration on the lower half of her 
face, his was more uniform.

Given their occupation, one expects they both get a lot of sun. Other 
issues, like local soil selenium content and dietary habits can also 
affect excretion of metals, increasing the risk of argyria.

But the bottom line is, you might want to suggest to them, Neville, 
that they should not use that kind of CS on a daily basis but only when 
needed, just as you described that they do now, and be sure they have 
an adequate amount of selenium and vitamin E in their diet or 
supplement program.

Be well,

Mike D.

[Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian]
[mdev...@eskimo.com]
[Speaking only for myself...   ]


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caffeine and EIS, was Re: #Re: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[sol]

At 11:39 AM 2/5/2010, you wrote:




They don't release their charge to the particle, they are 
neutralized by oxidation by the developer.  Although there are many 
possible developers in the blood, caffeine is one that has a high 
probability of being there and is a proven photographic 
developer.  One possible conversion with caffeine is this:


AgCl + C_8 H_10 N_4 O_2 = Ag + N2Cl  + CO2 + C7H10N2

That is, Silver Chloride plus caffeine = Silver metal + Diazo 
Chloride + 4-Tolyhydrazine


There are likely many other paths,


Marshall,
  That is possibly or likely very pertinent to my "blue moons" as I 
was a very heavy caffeine consumer during the time I was also taking 
large amounts of EIS daily. I was drinking probably almost a quart of 
strong coffee and 2 pots of tea per day.

OOPS!
sol

Re: #Re: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[M. G. Devour]

Mike Monett jabs:
> Marshall, your  remarkable and profound ignorance of the  basic laws  
>  of chemistry, physics, logic, and common sense is amusing.

Marshall rejoins:
> Actually I was thinking the same thing about you.  That you could be
> unaware of photography and the chemisty involved is indeed amusing.

And with that, I hope to take the "combatants" aside for a little... 
coaching.

Thank you for continuing not to continue this discussion until the 
ground rules can be properly ironed out.

Be well,

Mike Devour
silver-list owner
[Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian]
[mdev...@eskimo.com]
[Speaking only for myself...   ]


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Re: #Re: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Marshall Dudley]

Mike Monett wrote:

  > There is  another  problem   as   well.  The  chemistry  of silver
  > indicates that any silver ions in the blood will quickly plate out
  > on any  silver  particles in the blood, which do  not  register as
  > ions. He  does not confirm that the ions do not make  it  into the
  > blood, we  know from those who get argyria  from  silver compounds
  > they do,  but rather that when taken with colloidal  particles are
  > quickly plated out on the particles which are in the blood.

  >Marshall

  Marshall,

  There is no such chemistry of silver that will allow silver  ions to
  plate out on silver particles. Your claim is false.
  
Of course it does, the entire photographic industry depends on this very 
action of silver salts when in the prescence of a developer in an 
alkaline solution.  If it is not possible, then there can be no such 
thing as a photograph.

  Here's why:

  1. In  conventional  LVDC  silver electrolysis,  a  silver  ion that
  reaches the  cathode  can accept an electron and  be  converted back
  into an atom. The equation is:

Ag(+) + e(-) --> Ag

  However, one  of  the  most fundamental  laws  in  chemistry  is any
  chemical process  must  be charge balanced, and the  result  must be
  neutral.

  2. In  order  for the ion to plate out at the  cathode,  another ion
  must enter  the  solution. The only place this can occur  is  at the
  anode, and the result is another silver ion releases an electron and
  enters the solution. The equation is:

Ag - e(-) --> Ag(+)

  The overall effect is a silver atom is transferred from the anode to
  the cathode.  This wastes an electron, and results in  no  change in
  the conductance  of  the  solution.  This  is  why  I  developed the
  conductance method  of  terminating the brew at or  just  before the
  ions reach the opposite electrodes. The section is "Analysing the CS
  Process", at:

http://www.pstca.com/silversol/theory/analysis.htm

  3. The above process cannot work in the blood. There is no source of
  electrons to  neutralize  the  charge on the ion,  and  there  is no
  positively-charged silver  anode to release another silver  ion into
  the solution  to keep the charge balanced. There is also  no battery
  connecting the  two electrodes to supply the EMF  necessary  for the
  reaction to occur.
  
Of course there is a source of electrons.  Look up the chemistry of 
photography, the development bath must be alkaline (the stop bath is 
acid), and there must be an oxidizing developer present.  If what you 
say were true, then Kodak would not exist. If chemical reactions can 
ONLY occur if you have an anode and cathode, then 99.99% of all chemical 
reactions would be impossible and of course so would argyria which is 
cause by this very same process, except the initial silver atoms are 
formed by photoillumination of the silver chloride, and then the 
remaining silver chloride in the blood can plate out on them..  Life 
would not exist without chemical reactions taking place without an anode 
and cathode..

  4. If for some reason a silver ion landed on a silver  particle, the
  entire particle  would take on a positive charge in  accordance with
  the charge  balance rule. This will repel any further ions  from the
  particle and stop any further plateout.
  
Not true.  If you start with Silver chloride AgCl, which is used in 
almost ALL photographic emulsions, and expose it to a developer in an 
alkaline bath, they will plate out on any silver particles present (what 
is termed the latent image).  I am surprised anyone in this modern age 
is not aware of silver based photography.  The blood is no different, it 
will contain silver chloride, is alkaline, and if you have taken EIS 
will contain particles.  I can accept the possibility that some 
component in the blood may contain something which might inhibit this 
action, but to claim that the photographic development process itself is 
impossible is a bit out there.

  However, for your claim to work, the ions have to ignore  the charge
  buildup and  continue  releasing their charge to  the  particle. The
  particle would develop a high voltage like these two ladies  who are
  touching a high voltage conductor:

http://izismile.com/img/img2/20090406/tesla_20.jpg
  
They don't release their charge to the particle, they are neutralized by 
oxidation by the developer.  Although there are many possible developers 
in the blood, caffeine is one that has a high probability of being there 
and is a proven photographic developer.  One possible conversion with 
caffeine is this:


AgCl + C_8 H_10 N_4 O_2 = Ag + N2Cl  + CO2 + C7H10N2

That is, Silver Chloride plus caffeine = Silver metal + Diazo Chloride + 
4-Tolyhydrazine


There are likely many other paths, and I am sure probably a different 
one would be more kinetically probable.

  5. If your claim was true, the silver electrolysis proces

Re: #Re: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Dorothy Fitzpatrick]

Oops, Clash of the Titans?   dee

On 5 Feb 2010, at 03:02, Mike Monett wrote:

>> There is  another  problem   as   well.  The  chemistry  of silver
>> indicates that any silver ions in the blood will quickly plate out
>> on any  silver  particles in the blood, which do  not  register as
>> ions. He  does not confirm that the ions do not make  it  into the
>> blood, we  know from those who get argyria  from  silver compounds
>> they do,  but rather that when taken with colloidal  particles are
>> quickly plated out on the particles which are in the blood.
> 
>> Marshall
> 
>  Marshall,
> 
>  There is no such chemistry of silver that will allow silver  ions to
>  plate out on silver particles. Your claim is false.
> 
>  Here's why:
> 
>  1. In  conventional  LVDC  silver electrolysis,  a  silver  ion that
>  reaches the  cathode  can accept an electron and  be  converted back
>  into an atom. The equation is:
> 
>Ag(+) + e(-) --> Ag
> 
>  However, one  of  the  most fundamental  laws  in  chemistry  is any
>  chemical process  must  be charge balanced, and the  result  must be
>  neutral.
> 
>   


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Re: #Re: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Mike Monett]

  > There is  another  problem   as   well.  The  chemistry  of silver
  > indicates that any silver ions in the blood will quickly plate out
  > on any  silver  particles in the blood, which do  not  register as
  > ions. He  does not confirm that the ions do not make  it  into the
  > blood, we  know from those who get argyria  from  silver compounds
  > they do,  but rather that when taken with colloidal  particles are
  > quickly plated out on the particles which are in the blood.

  >Marshall

  Marshall,

  There is no such chemistry of silver that will allow silver  ions to
  plate out on silver particles. Your claim is false.

  Here's why:

  1. In  conventional  LVDC  silver electrolysis,  a  silver  ion that
  reaches the  cathode  can accept an electron and  be  converted back
  into an atom. The equation is:

Ag(+) + e(-) --> Ag

  However, one  of  the  most fundamental  laws  in  chemistry  is any
  chemical process  must  be charge balanced, and the  result  must be
  neutral.

  2. In  order  for the ion to plate out at the  cathode,  another ion
  must enter  the  solution. The only place this can occur  is  at the
  anode, and the result is another silver ion releases an electron and
  enters the solution. The equation is:

Ag - e(-) --> Ag(+)

  The overall effect is a silver atom is transferred from the anode to
  the cathode.  This wastes an electron, and results in  no  change in
  the conductance  of  the  solution.  This  is  why  I  developed the
  conductance method  of  terminating the brew at or  just  before the
  ions reach the opposite electrodes. The section is "Analysing the CS
  Process", at:

http://www.pstca.com/silversol/theory/analysis.htm

  3. The above process cannot work in the blood. There is no source of
  electrons to  neutralize  the  charge on the ion,  and  there  is no
  positively-charged silver  anode to release another silver  ion into
  the solution  to keep the charge balanced. There is also  no battery
  connecting the  two electrodes to supply the EMF  necessary  for the
  reaction to occur.

  4. If for some reason a silver ion landed on a silver  particle, the
  entire particle  would take on a positive charge in  accordance with
  the charge  balance rule. This will repel any further ions  from the
  particle and stop any further plateout.

  However, for your claim to work, the ions have to ignore  the charge
  buildup and  continue  releasing their charge to  the  particle. The
  particle would develop a high voltage like these two ladies  who are
  touching a high voltage conductor:

http://izismile.com/img/img2/20090406/tesla_20.jpg

  5. If your claim was true, the silver electrolysis process could not
  work. When  a  silver particle gives up an electron  and  leaves the
  anode, the  nearest silver particle is the anode.  Since  your claim
  requires the  ion  to ignore the positive charge on  the  anode, the
  silver ion would have no choice but to return to the anode and plate
  out. This obviously does not happen.

  6. If  your  claim was true, the ion selective  electrode  would not
  work in  any solution that contained silver particles. All  the ions
  would plate  out  and there would be nothing left  to  measure. This
  obviously does not happen.

  Marshall, your  remarkable and profound ignorance of the  basic laws
  of chemistry, physics, logic, and common sense is amusing.

  But I'm  afraid the conclusions you draw would be very  confusing to
  newcomers. I  recommend  that any of your claims  should  be checked
  very carefully by independent means.
  
  Mike M.


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RE: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Ode Coyote]

 Assuming there was silver to BE found

In the face of not stating what WAS found [ IF...anything else was *looked 
for* ], what WASN'T found is pretty much moot, regardless of method accuracy.



 Pure speculation: [Can't prove a negative]
If someone with the means to find silver, regardless of form, found silver, 
but none of it ionic [using the same method, accurate or not] similar 
results would point to a lack of  saleable difference between products. 
..and NOT saying what the results were [if any], a wise move.


Like it or not, [Given no fire in the theater ] I have a right to remain 
silent and so does Frank.
 At least he does remain silent and doesn't resort to outright distortions 
and lies like a few of his competitors [presumably] attempting to 
accomplish the same thing using manipulative noise.


[ IF...so ]   It's the difference between *let the ignorant remain 
ignorant* and *make the ignorant believe they aren't*.
or.."You'll have to breathe on your own without my help"...and... "Here, 
let me cut your throat and claim I didn't"..with both parties selling air.


 Frank doesn't say EIS doesn't work [implying that it does], just that 
it's the colloid portion that does the job...and IF the plating theory is 
correct, so is he.
 Because [IF.. that's the case] after all is said and done, there is no 
real difference as to where the colloids are to start with, when it all 
winds up being the same where it counts.


And you don't have to know anything for that to happen, therefore, the 
information isn't relevant to the results and makes no difference either way.


 DYI isn't Franks market and he has not interfered with it.

Beyond any speculations about how *some* info *might* have been limited, he 
HAS made extremely valuable contributions of a factual physical nature 
concerning various products being sold...and... leaving you to be your own 
judge about what you want to do.


You can't expect somebody to cut their own throat, especially if not doing 
so makes no difference.


Ode



Personally, I do not put much faith in Frank's silver ion measurement.


 - Steve N



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RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Neville Munn]

[I also guess that Altman drank the EIS quickly]

 

-And *THAT* is but *ONE* of those things that never seems to appear in 
published material, and that means the *reader* is encouraged to form some 
conclusions of his/her own...Welcome to the club of those who find it necessary 
to "plug the gaps" and appear to swim against the flow *despite* popular 
opinion or published material.

 

Published material needs to inform of *EVERYTHING*, no matter how small or 
insignificant it may seem to the writer.  There are many holes I consider need 
plugging in that 'dyke', doesn't matter how ridiculous one looks spread out all 
over that wall plugging them with fingers and toes...It needs to be done.

 

That's it Boss, I can feel myself slipping .

 

N.
 
> Subject: RE: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 17:33:44 -0600
> From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> 
> As best I have been able to determine, there are 3 primary excretion
> paths for silver:
> 
> * Silver in solution is removed by the liver through the biliary
> excretion path. This path has a capacity of around 1 mg of silver per
> day.
> 
> * Large silver particles are removed by the liver by Kuypper cells.
> Starting at roughly 2.2 nm and larger.
> 
> * Small silver particles are filtered out by the kidney. Roughly 2.2 nm
> and smaller. There is an overlap region where particles may be removed
> by either the liver or the kidney. There may some forms of silver in
> solution that the kidney removes but I have not found any referenced in
> any scientific studies.
> 
> I did find a study at
> http://www.jnrc.org.cn/qikan/epaper/zhaiyao.asp?bsid=4825, that states
> that Ag(NH3)2 is removed primarily by the liver. Ag(NH3)2 is the
> silver/ammonia compound that Stuart Thomson proposes as being formed. I
> was able to find nothing relating to fulminating silver in vivo.
> 
> Looking at Altman's study data, I estimate the silver excreted over the
> 96 days at roughly 321 mg. 115 mg through the liver (35%) and 206 mg
> through the kidney (65%). I also guess that Altman drank the EIS quickly
> so that few of the silver ions passed through the mucosal tissues. (Just
> FYI. The one day preliminary excretion test showed a different ratio
> between the liver and kidney, 20% through the liver and 80% through the
> kidney.)
> 
> I estimated the average excretion rate through the liver at 1.2 mg/day.
> This is a little high for the biliary excretion path and could account
> for the removal of some large particles. Or perhaps it could be
> measurement error. (I would expect a larger measurement error in the
> feces depending on how homogeneous the silver was in the feces being
> sampled. Urine samples should be fairly accurate.) But the output is
> amazingly close to the predicted max biliary excretion rate and I think
> it does represent the elimination of silver that is in solution and not
> just large particles.
> 
> 
> Personally, I do not put much faith in Frank's silver ion measurement. 
> 
> 
> - Steve N
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Marshall Dudley [mailto:mdud...@king-cart.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:17 AM
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
> 
> There is another problem as well. The chemistry of silver indicates 
> that any silver ions in the blood will quickly plate out on any silver 
> particles in the blood, which do not register as ions. He does not 
> confirm that the ions do not make it into the blood, we know from those 
> who get argyria from silver compounds they do, but rather that when 
> taken with colloidal particles are quickly plated out on the particles 
> which are in the blood.
> 
> Marshall
> 
> Mike Monett wrote:
> > > Frank used an ion selective probe to see if there was any Ionic
> > > Silver in the blood after ingesting EIS. He found none.
> >
> > I remember that post. Frank was being very disingenuous. He buys a
> > lot of expensive lab equipment and certainly knows the capabilities
> > and limitations of each measurement.
> >
> 
> 
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> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
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> 
  
_
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RE: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

As best I have been able to determine, there are 3 primary excretion
paths for silver:

* Silver in solution is removed by the liver through the biliary
excretion path. This path has a capacity of around 1 mg of silver per
day.

* Large silver particles are removed by the liver by Kuypper cells.
Starting at roughly 2.2 nm and larger.

* Small silver particles are filtered out by the kidney. Roughly 2.2 nm
and smaller. There is an overlap region where particles may be removed
by either the liver or the kidney. There may some forms of silver in
solution that the kidney removes but I have not found any referenced in
any scientific studies.

I did find a study at
http://www.jnrc.org.cn/qikan/epaper/zhaiyao.asp?bsid=4825, that states
that Ag(NH3)2 is removed primarily by the liver. Ag(NH3)2 is the
silver/ammonia compound that Stuart Thomson proposes as being formed. I
was able to find nothing relating to fulminating silver in vivo.

Looking at Altman's study data, I estimate the silver excreted over the
96 days at roughly 321 mg. 115 mg through the liver (35%) and 206 mg
through the kidney (65%). I also guess that Altman drank the EIS quickly
so that few of the silver ions passed through the mucosal tissues. (Just
FYI. The one day preliminary excretion test showed a different ratio
between the liver and kidney, 20% through the liver and 80% through the
kidney.)

I estimated the average excretion rate through the liver at 1.2 mg/day.
This is a little high for the biliary excretion path and could account
for the removal of some large particles. Or perhaps it could be
measurement error. (I would expect a larger measurement error in the
feces depending on how homogeneous the silver was in the feces being
sampled. Urine samples should be fairly accurate.) But the output is
amazingly close to the predicted max biliary excretion rate and I think
it does represent the elimination of silver that is in solution and not
just large particles.


Personally, I do not put much faith in Frank's silver ion measurement. 


 - Steve N


-Original Message-
From: Marshall Dudley [mailto:mdud...@king-cart.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:17 AM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

There is another problem as well.  The chemistry of silver indicates 
that any silver ions in the blood will quickly plate out on any silver 
particles in the blood, which do not register as ions.  He does not 
confirm that the ions do not make it into the blood, we know from those 
who get argyria from silver compounds they do, but rather that when 
taken with colloidal particles are quickly plated out on the particles 
which are in the blood.

Marshall

Mike Monett wrote:
>   > Frank used  an ion selective probe to see if there  was  any Ionic
>   > Silver in the blood after ingesting EIS. He found none.
>
>   I remember  that post. Frank was being very disingenuous. He  buys a
>   lot of expensive lab equipment and certainly knows  the capabilities
>   and limitations of each measurement.
>


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Re: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Marshall Dudley]

There is another problem as well.  The chemistry of silver indicates 
that any silver ions in the blood will quickly plate out on any silver 
particles in the blood, which do not register as ions.  He does not 
confirm that the ions do not make it into the blood, we know from those 
who get argyria from silver compounds they do, but rather that when 
taken with colloidal particles are quickly plated out on the particles 
which are in the blood.


Marshall

Mike Monett wrote:

  > Frank used  an ion selective probe to see if there  was  any Ionic
  > Silver in the blood after ingesting EIS. He found none.

  I remember  that post. Frank was being very disingenuous. He  buys a
  lot of expensive lab equipment and certainly knows  the capabilities
  and limitations of each measurement.

  The fundamental limitation in an ion selective probe is interference
  from other ions. Here is a description:
  
  Interferences

  The most serious problem limiting use of ion-selective electrodes is
  interference  from   other,   undesired,   ions.   No  ion-selective
  electrodes are  completely ion-specific; all are sensitive  to other
  ions having similar physical properties, to an extent  which depends
  on the  degree of similarity. Most of these  interferences  are weak
  enough to  be ignored, but in some cases the electrode  may actually
  be much  more sensitive to the interfering ion than  to  the desired
  ion, requiring  that  the   interfering   ion   be  present  only in
  relatively very low concentrations, or entirely absent. In practice,
  the relative sensitivities of each type of ion-specific electrode to
  various interfering  ions is generally known and  should  be checked
  for each case; however the precise degree of interference depends on
  many factors, preventing precise correction of readings.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_selective_electrode
  

  In the  silver  ion probe, the interference is from  the  sodium ion
  which is present in blood.

  The minimum  detectable level for silver in the probe  he  was using
  was 30 parts per billion.

  Frank did  not  say anything about the interference  or  the minimum
  detectable level.  He  led everyone to believe  the  silver  ion was
  captured by the hydrochloric acid in the stomach and  converted into
  silver chloride.

  However, this  is false. Silver chloride is soluble up to  about 800
  parts per billion. So the silver ions are still free to  be absorbed
  through the stomach into the bloodstream.

  However, they  first  go   through   the  liver,  which  has various
  processes to filter out harmful substances. It is possible the liver
  also removes  the  silver  ions.   This  is  a  serious  problem for
  pharmaceuticals, which is why sublingual absorption is used whenever
  possible. One application is nitroglycerin for heart  attacks. Speed
  is essential,  and a high concentration is necessary.  So sublingual
  is the only practical method.

  The end  result  is   Frank's   measurements   show  the  silver ion
  concentration in the bloodstream is less than 30 parts per billion.

  My calculations show the amount absorbed using sublingual absorption
  is less  than  18 parts per billion. This agrees  well  with Frank's
  measurements.

  The kinetic  kill  experiments by Steve Quinto  show  the  effect of
  silver ions  on e.coli drops of rapidly below about  1000  parts per
  billion. David has the url on his site, but I don't have  time right
  now to track it down.

  The milk  test  performed by Marvin Hacker shows  the  minimum level
  needed to  kill e.coli bacteria is around 400 parts per  billion. (I
  will supply the calculations later when I have more time):

http://www.pstca.com/silversol/testing/milk.htm

  The effect  of silver ions on viruses is not known. But  if  the ion
  concentration in  the  body is at least an order  of  magnitude less
  than required to kill bacteria, it is reasonable to assume this will
  also have little effect on the serious viruses such as Herpes Zoster
  (shingles), which is considered one of the toughest viruses to kill.

  However, a  single dose of less than 100 micrograms  of  silver ions
  taken sublingually  completely eliminates the shingles virus,  for a
  few days. This produces less than 18 ppb in the blood.

  The conclusion  is  the  silver ion  concentration  in  the  body is
  insufficient by itself to have any effect on bacteria and viruses.

  There must be some other mechanism involved.

  The only  other  mechanism  in the body  is  the  immune  system. My
  proposal is  the  immune  system  needs  the  silver  ions  for some
  purpose, such  as  making the proteins and  enzymes  needed  to kill
  bacteria and viruses.

  Only a  very  small amount is needed. This is similar  to  the trace
  amounts o

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Dorothy Fitzpatrick]

Hi Mike, you will have realised by now that I am no techie, so can you tell me 
if by sublingual, you mean we get the best saturation of ions through the skin 
by holding the solution in the mouth?  I know when I get a swollen gland in my 
cheek, if I hold the CS there for a few minutes before swallowing, the swelling 
goes down in under half a minute.  thanks.  dee

On 2 Feb 2010, at 22:08, Mike Monett wrote:

>> Frank used  an ion selective probe to see if there  was  any Ionic
>> Silver in the blood after ingesting EIS. He found none.
> 
>   
>  However, they  first  go   through   the  liver,  which  has various
>  processes to filter out harmful substances. It is possible the liver
>  also removes  the  silver  ions.   This  is  a  serious  problem for
>  pharmaceuticals, which is why sublingual absorption is used whenever
>  possible. 


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Re: CS>Re: WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Ode Coyote]

  Currently, I don't know but he has been on and off.
We've also had phone and other email contact.

ode


At 06:39 AM 2/2/2010 -0800, you wrote:
Ode -- your phrasing suggests that Frank is a current member of this 
group.  I was unaware of that -- is it so?

MA


From: Ode Coyote odecoy...@windstream.net

All that said, Frank has been VERY helpful where it doesn't reveal his 
trade secrets, his contributions as far as they can go with that 
limitation are honest and accurate and his is the best lab going.

Franks contributions are quite valuable.
If there is anyone that knows what he's talking about, that would be 
Frank...but there are some things he just won't talk about.

People have a right to keep their "Trade Secrets" safe.
People have a right to "remain silent".
[Ever notice how quiet he gets when EIS and Hydrogen Peroxide discussions 
arise?]



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Re: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Mike Monett]

  Correction:

  > The milk  test performed by Marvin Hacker shows the  minimum level
  > needed to kill e.coli bacteria is around 400 parts per billion. (I
  > will supply the calculations later when I have more time):

  >http://www.pstca.com/silversol/testing/milk.htm

  Oops, I  have e.coli spillover. The bacteria Marv  was  working with
  was whatever was already in the milk or arrived later when  the milk
  was poured.

  Regards,

  Mike M.


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Re: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Mike Monett]

  > Frank used  an ion selective probe to see if there  was  any Ionic
  > Silver in the blood after ingesting EIS. He found none.

  I remember  that post. Frank was being very disingenuous. He  buys a
  lot of expensive lab equipment and certainly knows  the capabilities
  and limitations of each measurement.

  The fundamental limitation in an ion selective probe is interference
  from other ions. Here is a description:
  
  Interferences

  The most serious problem limiting use of ion-selective electrodes is
  interference  from   other,   undesired,   ions.   No  ion-selective
  electrodes are  completely ion-specific; all are sensitive  to other
  ions having similar physical properties, to an extent  which depends
  on the  degree of similarity. Most of these  interferences  are weak
  enough to  be ignored, but in some cases the electrode  may actually
  be much  more sensitive to the interfering ion than  to  the desired
  ion, requiring  that  the   interfering   ion   be  present  only in
  relatively very low concentrations, or entirely absent. In practice,
  the relative sensitivities of each type of ion-specific electrode to
  various interfering  ions is generally known and  should  be checked
  for each case; however the precise degree of interference depends on
  many factors, preventing precise correction of readings.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_selective_electrode
  

  In the  silver  ion probe, the interference is from  the  sodium ion
  which is present in blood.

  The minimum  detectable level for silver in the probe  he  was using
  was 30 parts per billion.

  Frank did  not  say anything about the interference  or  the minimum
  detectable level.  He  led everyone to believe  the  silver  ion was
  captured by the hydrochloric acid in the stomach and  converted into
  silver chloride.

  However, this  is false. Silver chloride is soluble up to  about 800
  parts per billion. So the silver ions are still free to  be absorbed
  through the stomach into the bloodstream.

  However, they  first  go   through   the  liver,  which  has various
  processes to filter out harmful substances. It is possible the liver
  also removes  the  silver  ions.   This  is  a  serious  problem for
  pharmaceuticals, which is why sublingual absorption is used whenever
  possible. One application is nitroglycerin for heart  attacks. Speed
  is essential,  and a high concentration is necessary.  So sublingual
  is the only practical method.

  The end  result  is   Frank's   measurements   show  the  silver ion
  concentration in the bloodstream is less than 30 parts per billion.

  My calculations show the amount absorbed using sublingual absorption
  is less  than  18 parts per billion. This agrees  well  with Frank's
  measurements.

  The kinetic  kill  experiments by Steve Quinto  show  the  effect of
  silver ions  on e.coli drops of rapidly below about  1000  parts per
  billion. David has the url on his site, but I don't have  time right
  now to track it down.

  The milk  test  performed by Marvin Hacker shows  the  minimum level
  needed to  kill e.coli bacteria is around 400 parts per  billion. (I
  will supply the calculations later when I have more time):

http://www.pstca.com/silversol/testing/milk.htm

  The effect  of silver ions on viruses is not known. But  if  the ion
  concentration in  the  body is at least an order  of  magnitude less
  than required to kill bacteria, it is reasonable to assume this will
  also have little effect on the serious viruses such as Herpes Zoster
  (shingles), which is considered one of the toughest viruses to kill.

  However, a  single dose of less than 100 micrograms  of  silver ions
  taken sublingually  completely eliminates the shingles virus,  for a
  few days. This produces less than 18 ppb in the blood.

  The conclusion  is  the  silver ion  concentration  in  the  body is
  insufficient by itself to have any effect on bacteria and viruses.

  There must be some other mechanism involved.

  The only  other  mechanism  in the body  is  the  immune  system. My
  proposal is  the  immune  system  needs  the  silver  ions  for some
  purpose, such  as  making the proteins and  enzymes  needed  to kill
  bacteria and viruses.

  Only a  very  small amount is needed. This is similar  to  the trace
  amounts of selenium and cobalt that are also required by the body to
  stay healthy.

  The conclusion  is  we  need to focus on  methods  that  produce the
  highest concentration  of  silver   ions  in  solution.  The current
  methods are  not good enough. They do not produce  reliable results,
  and they  do not account for contamination  from  sulphur, chlorine,
  and other   substances   in   the   environment.   These   wreck the
  electrolysis process  and can reduce the ion  concentration  to very
 

CS>Re: WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[MaryAnn Helland]

Ode -- your phrasing suggests that Frank is a current member of this group.  I 
was unaware of that -- is it so?
MA





From: Ode Coyote odecoy...@windstream.net

All that said, Frank has been VERY helpful where it doesn't reveal his trade 
secrets, his contributions as far as they can go with that limitation are 
honest and accurate and his is the best lab going.
Franks contributions are quite valuable.
If there is anyone that knows what he's talking about, that would be 
Frank...but there are some things he just won't talk about.
People have a right to keep their "Trade Secrets" safe.
People have a right to "remain silent".
[Ever notice how quiet he gets when EIS and Hydrogen Peroxide discussions 
arise?] 

RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Ode Coyote]

  But then, we're not dealing with a [chemically] "significant" amount of 
silver, either.

Everything has thresholds.
And if the Silver does plate onto existing colloidal particles as according 
to the theory, then the Ammonia is but a transporter going back to being 
Ammonia.


Ode

At 10:12 AM 2/2/2010 +1030, you wrote:
That's the one Steve, I just didn't wanna to say too much...nudge nudge, 
wink wink .


N.

> Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 10:59:37 -0600
> From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
>
> Neville,
>
> You are right, the info on silver and ammonia is no longer posted on 
line. However, I have a copy of it and will send it to you directly. Just 
as an aside, the silver-ammonia that is proposed as being formed is 
Ag(NH3)2. The study at

> http://www.jnrc.org.cn/qikan/epaper/zhaiyao.asp?bsid=4825
> states that Ag(NH3)2 is removed primarily by the liver and so Ag(NH3)2 
is probably not formed in significant amounts in vivo, based on the 
Altman study data.

>
> BTW, the paper contains what must be one of my favorite statements:
>
> "Stuart exposed Frank as a scam artist with massive vested commercial 
interests in propounding his claim. One of Frank's accomplices, Mike 
Devour, a self-proclaimed libertarian and owner of the Silver List, 
promptly banned Stuart from further participation on the forum for life. 
Having no permission to reproduce the entire debate, which was expunged 
from the Silver List archive database, Stuart has been able to reproduce 
only his contribution, which fortunately used a format quoting 
competitor's contentious statements before demolishing them, so rendering 
such statements effectively dual intellectual property."

>
> Knowing Mike, I still laugh every time I think of it. LOL
>
> Enjoy,
> Steve N
>
> From: Neville Munn [mailto:one.red...@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 3:44 PM
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
>
> Ammonia in the body I meant to say of course, can't say much about it 
cos I've only been able to find a brief discussion on it?  What I did 
find is a teaser though, would like to find more info on the subject.

>
> N.
>
> 
> Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:21:05 -0600
> From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> What is his theory?
> - Steve N
>
> ____
> From: Neville Munn 
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
> Sent: Sat Jan 30 17:15:45 2010
> Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
> Steve, I meant to thank you for those questions you put on here a 
couple days ago.

>
> Don't know if you've read Stuart Thompson's hypothesis regarding 
stomack acid and silver, unfortunately the whole story is unavailable, 
but what little remains available in the public domain of a discussion on 
the subject is a very good teaser, but at this point in time, given the 
limited information available, I believe I'm running with his theory.

>
> N.
> 
> Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:24:28 -0600
> From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
>
> [That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is considered 
argumentative by some but I think it is clearly the case. ]

> 
> Learn how Video chat with Windows Live Messenger
> 
> Browse profiles for FREE View photos of singles in your area!
>
>
> --
> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
>
> Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org
>
> To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com
>
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>
> The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down...
>
> List maintainer: Mike Devour 
>
>


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Re: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Ode Coyote]

  Frank used an ion selective probe to see if there was any Ionic Silver 
in the blood after ingesting EIS.

He found none.
 What he doesn't say is what he did find [or if he *looked* for metallic 
silver ]
 That speaks unspoken volumes of unprovable speculation...but un-proven 
isn't dis-proven and no one is claiming anything about that


If the *Fulminating Silver Stage* theory is correct, the results would look 
very similar to someone using Franks products.
 Now, Frank doesn't say that EIS /CS  **doesn't** work, just that it's the 
Colloidal portion that's doing the job.
 But IF the Ionic portion is converting to a Colloid, Frank is both 
correct  AND Ionic Silver works BECAUSE he's correct.
 But saying so would impact the *specialness* of his product as it's 
...getting to the same place by different routes.


All that said, Frank has been VERY helpful where it doesn't reveal his 
trade secrets, his contributions as far as they can go with that limitation 
are honest and accurate and his is the best lab going.

 Franks contributions are quite valuable.
 If there is anyone that knows what he's talking about, that would be 
Frank...but there are some things he just won't talk about.

 People have a right to keep their "Trade Secrets" safe.
People have a right to "remain silent".
[Ever notice how quiet he gets when EIS and Hydrogen Peroxide discussions 
arise?]


Given Franks "situation", I don't have a problem with him and count him as 
one of the "Good Guys" and Meso-Silver as probably a very good 
product...just not the only one that's good.
 I don't remember Stuart very well, but being confrontational in a pissing 
contest isn't necessary if both ways work the same and no one is denying 
that another way works.


It's not a matter of "Mine is good, therefore, yours is bad"...ifBOTH 
are good.
 And if one may be personally found somewhat better for a *given 
application*...pick that one for that application.  It doesn't mean that 
another doesn't work better for a different application, or that either or 
neither will work well enough to get the job done.


Ode



At 01:55 PM 2/1/2010 -0600, you wrote:


Sasha,

From the paper I forwarded to Neville:

"The following is abstracted from an online debate between Francis Key, 
Principal Scientist and Founder, Colloidal Science Laboratory, New Jersey, 
USA, who holds that ionic silver
cannot possibly have anti-microbial utility in the human body, and Stuart 
Thomson,
Director and Founder, the Gaia Research Institute, Knysna, Republic of 
South Africa, who
argues that ionic silver is indeed so active via ammonia and 
metalloprotein mechanisms."



After the Altman Silver Elimination Study results were released in 1999, 
apparently some lively discussions took place regarding just what the 
Altman study meant regarding EIS effectiveness the body. The paper relates 
some discussions and analysis that took place on the silver list in 2001 
between Frank Key and Stuart Thomson.


Personally, I think that neither person got it quite right.

 - Steve N


PS -
Mike Devour,
I could not help myself in relating that reference to you. I have been 
chuckling all morning after having again read it. I am not sure if I saved 
the paper because of its scientific value or because of that comment. And 
the way it makes it appear that you being a self proclaimed Libertarian 
confirms the conspiracy. It reminds me of that old political campaign in 
the deep South where one candidate accused his opposition of being a 
"heterosexual".


Mike Monett,
Now you now know which of the old posts to NOT include in the archive.  
LOL!

Now Mike is probably going to include my posts in that category as well.



From: sms [mailto:s...@emotap.com]
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 11:22 AM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

Who's Stuart?  Pardon my ignorance.
Sasha



Steve quotes the following:
> "Stuart exposed Frank as a scam artist with massive vested commercial
> interests in propounding his claim. One of Frank's accomplices, Mike
>





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RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Neville Munn]

That's the one Steve, I just didn't wanna to say too much...nudge nudge, wink 
wink .

 

N.
 
> Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 10:59:37 -0600
> From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> 
> Neville,
> 
> You are right, the info on silver and ammonia is no longer posted on line. 
> However, I have a copy of it and will send it to you directly. Just as an 
> aside, the silver-ammonia that is proposed as being formed is Ag(NH3)2. The 
> study at 
> http://www.jnrc.org.cn/qikan/epaper/zhaiyao.asp?bsid=4825
> states that Ag(NH3)2 is removed primarily by the liver and so Ag(NH3)2 is 
> probably not formed in significant amounts in vivo, based on the Altman study 
> data.
> 
> BTW, the paper contains what must be one of my favorite statements:
> 
> "Stuart exposed Frank as a scam artist with massive vested commercial 
> interests in propounding his claim. One of Frank's accomplices, Mike Devour, 
> a self-proclaimed libertarian and owner of the Silver List, promptly banned 
> Stuart from further participation on the forum for life. Having no permission 
> to reproduce the entire debate, which was expunged from the Silver List 
> archive database, Stuart has been able to reproduce only his contribution, 
> which fortunately used a format quoting competitor's contentious statements 
> before demolishing them, so rendering such statements effectively dual 
> intellectual property."
> 
> Knowing Mike, I still laugh every time I think of it. LOL
> 
> Enjoy,
> Steve N
> 
> From: Neville Munn [mailto:one.red...@hotmail.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 3:44 PM
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
> 
> Ammonia in the body I meant to say of course, can't say much about it cos 
> I've only been able to find a brief discussion on it?  What I did find is a 
> teaser though, would like to find more info on the subject.
>  
> N.
>  
> 
> Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:21:05 -0600
> From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> What is his theory?
> - Steve N
> 
> 
> From: Neville Munn  
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com  
> Sent: Sat Jan 30 17:15:45 2010
> Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria! 
> Steve, I meant to thank you for those questions you put on here a couple days 
> ago.
>  
> Don't know if you've read Stuart Thompson's hypothesis regarding stomack acid 
> and silver, unfortunately the whole story is unavailable, but what little 
> remains available in the public domain of a discussion on the subject is a 
> very good teaser, but at this point in time, given the limited information 
> available, I believe I'm running with his theory.
>  
> N.
> 
> Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:24:28 -0600
> From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> 
> [That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is considered argumentative by 
> some but I think it is clearly the case. ]
> 
> Learn how Video chat with Windows Live Messenger 
> 
> Browse profiles for FREE View photos of singles in your area!
> 
> 
> --
> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
> 
> Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org
> 
> To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com
> 
> Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com
> 
> The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down...
> 
> List maintainer: Mike Devour 
> 
> 
  
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RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

Brickley,

 

Thanks for the information. I find it very interesting. 

 

-  Steve N

 

From: brick...@aol.com [mailto:brick...@aol.com] 
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 1:53 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

 

In a message dated 1/29/2010 2:56:27 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
stephen.nor...@ngc.com writes:

Average daily amount used. 32 ounces
Average ppm of EIS  10 PPM
How EIS was made 30 VDC and stopped at 8ma current
Number of years till nail beds turned blue/grey 3 or 4 yeas
Any unusual supplements used in conjunction with the EIS Used
Gatorade Aid powder to mix with EIS and drank this in place of water all
day. I used well water vice Distilled Water.

Brickey

 

Re: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[sms]

Much appreciated Steve. 
Sasha
---
From: Norton, Steve
Date: 02/01/10 12:02:38
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Sasha,
From the paper I forwarded to Neville:
"The following is abstracted from an online debate between Francis Key,
Principal Scientist and Founder, Colloidal Science Laboratory, New Jersey,
USA, who holds that ionic silver
cannot possibly have anti-microbial utility in the human body, and Stuart
Thomson,
Director and Founder, the Gaia Research Institute, Knysna, Republic of South
Africa, who
argues that ionic silver is indeed so active via ammonia and metalloprotein
mechanisms."
 

FW: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

Sasha,

>From the paper I forwarded to Neville:

"The following is abstracted from an online debate between Francis Key, 
Principal Scientist and Founder, Colloidal Science Laboratory, New Jersey, USA, 
who holds that ionic silver
cannot possibly have anti-microbial utility in the human body, and Stuart 
Thomson,
Director and Founder, the Gaia Research Institute, Knysna, Republic of South 
Africa, who
argues that ionic silver is indeed so active via ammonia and metalloprotein 
mechanisms."


After the Altman Silver Elimination Study results were released in 1999, 
apparently some lively discussions took place regarding just what the Altman 
study meant regarding EIS effectiveness the body. The paper relates some 
discussions and analysis that took place on the silver list in 2001 between 
Frank Key and Stuart Thomson. 

Personally, I think that neither person got it quite right.

 - Steve N


PS - 
Mike Devour, 
I could not help myself in relating that reference to you. I have been 
chuckling all morning after having again read it. I am not sure if I saved the 
paper because of its scientific value or because of that comment. And the way 
it makes it appear that you being a self proclaimed Libertarian confirms the 
conspiracy. It reminds me of that old political campaign in the deep South 
where one candidate accused his opposition of being a "heterosexual".

Mike Monett,
Now you now know which of the old posts to NOT include in the archive.  LOL!
Now Mike is probably going to include my posts in that category as well.



From: sms [mailto:s...@emotap.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 11:22 AM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

Who's Stuart?  Pardon my ignorance.
Sasha 
 
 
 
Steve quotes the following:
> "Stuart exposed Frank as a scam artist with massive vested commercial
> interests in propounding his claim. One of Frank's accomplices, Mike
> 





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RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[sms]

Who's Stuart?  Pardon my ignorance.
Sasha 
 

 
Steve quotes the following:
> "Stuart exposed Frank as a scam artist with massive vested commercial
> interests in propounding his claim. One of Frank's accomplices, Mike
> 

RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[M. G. Devour]

Steve quotes the following:
> "Stuart exposed Frank as a scam artist with massive vested commercial
> interests in propounding his claim. One of Frank's accomplices, Mike
> Devour, a self-proclaimed libertarian and owner of the Silver List,
> promptly banned Stuart from further participation on the forum for life.
> Having no permission to reproduce the entire debate, which was expunged
> from the Silver List archive database, Stuart has been able to reproduce
> only his contribution, which fortunately used a format quoting
> competitor's contentious statements before demolishing them, so
> rendering such statements effectively dual intellectual property."

 Translation: Stuart wouldn't stop battering other people about 
the head with textual 2x4's and refused to cooperate in any effort to 
moderate the debate. Bright as hell, but, umm... drama?

Yep, the old archive provider went out of business solely because I 
needed to *conceal* my perfidy in this sordid affair. It was so nice of 
them to do that for me. 

Oh woes, I'm betrayed! My vile acts naked before all huge manatee! 


> Knowing Mike, I still laugh every time I think of it.  LOL

Thanks Steve.

Happily, there has been much reward in this venture, so the occasional 
problem does not tarnish it for me. Few men are given the chance to do  
or learn as much.

Be well!

Mike D.

[Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian]
[mdev...@eskimo.com]
[Speaking only for myself...   ]


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RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

Neville,

You are right, the info on silver and ammonia is no longer posted on line. 
However, I have a copy of it and will send it to you directly. Just as an 
aside, the silver-ammonia that is proposed as being formed is Ag(NH3)2. The 
study at 
http://www.jnrc.org.cn/qikan/epaper/zhaiyao.asp?bsid=4825
 states that Ag(NH3)2 is removed primarily by the liver and so Ag(NH3)2 is 
probably not formed in significant amounts in vivo, based on the Altman study 
data.

BTW, the paper contains what must be one of my favorite statements:

"Stuart exposed Frank as a scam artist with massive vested commercial interests 
in propounding his claim. One of Frank's accomplices, Mike Devour, a 
self-proclaimed libertarian and owner of the Silver List, promptly banned 
Stuart from further participation on the forum for life. Having no permission 
to reproduce the entire debate, which was expunged from the Silver List archive 
database, Stuart has been able to reproduce only his contribution, which 
fortunately used a format quoting competitor's contentious statements before 
demolishing them, so rendering such statements effectively dual intellectual 
property."

Knowing Mike, I still laugh every time I think of it.  LOL

Enjoy,
 Steve N

From: Neville Munn [mailto:one.red...@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 3:44 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

Ammonia in the body I meant to say of course, can't say much about it cos I've 
only been able to find a brief discussion on it?  What I did find is a teaser 
though, would like to find more info on the subject.
 
N.
 

Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:21:05 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
What is his theory?
- Steve N


From: Neville Munn  
To: silver-list@eskimo.com  
Sent: Sat Jan 30 17:15:45 2010
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria! 
Steve, I meant to thank you for those questions you put on here a couple days 
ago.
 
Don't know if you've read Stuart Thompson's hypothesis regarding stomack acid 
and silver, unfortunately the whole story is unavailable, but what little 
remains available in the public domain of a discussion on the subject is a very 
good teaser, but at this point in time, given the limited information 
available, I believe I'm running with his theory.
 
N.
________
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:24:28 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com

[That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is considered argumentative by 
some but I think it is clearly the case. ]

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Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

Hit the wrong key last time. 

BIG OOPS. In the response below, "If you look at the Altman study, the kidney 
is still removing silver at max capacity after excretion through the liver has 
dropped to a low level" should have read " If you look at the Altman study, the 
LIVER is still removing silver at max capacity after excretion through the 
KIDNEY has dropped to a low level". 

- Steve N



From: Norton, Steve  
To: silver-list@eskimo.com  
Sent: Sun Jan 31 12:50:56 2010
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria! 




Ode,

Certainly it is possible that silver fulminate could be formed. But how much? 
The study shows that over 170 mg of silver had accumulated in the body. Given 
the instability of silver fulminate as a precipate I would  hope it was in 
solution if it existed. It may also be possible that some silver chloride is 
converted to other silver compounds such as silver citrate in the blood.

 But it is not clear what you mean by the statement "If MOST of it does, that 
sorta confirms the theory." If you are saying that if the silver is removed by 
the kidney it must be  silver fulminate, I have to disagree. I once speculated 
that silver chloride in solutuon might be removed by the kidney because 
chloride is removed by the kidney (sodium chloride, potassium chloride). I have 
never been comfortable with that proposition. Studies have shown that other 
silver salts are removed in the liver by the attachment of glutathione to the 
molecule. Who is to say which process is to take precidence? The same issue 
exists with silver fulminate.  My tendency is to think the liver removal 
process  take precidence when silver is in solution. If you look at the Altman 
study, the kidney is still removing silver at max capacity after excretion 
through the liver has dropped to a low level. To me that says that something is 
replenishing the silver in solution which the liver removes and not the kidney. 
My guess is that silver in some form of precipate is going back into solution 
as the liver removes silver from the body.
Also, small particles are without question filtered out by the kidney.
But back to the issue of removal by the kidney confirming the presence of 
silver fulminate, I think it does no such thing. Silver chloride will be as 
likely removed by the kidney.

Regards,
   Steve N


- Original Message -
From: Ode Coyote 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
Sent: Sun Jan 31 08:39:39 2010
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!


   The other part of the theory is that fulminating silver [ a very
unstable compound...explosive even ] made by silver chlorides encounter
with ammonia plates silver out onto small silver particles in the blood
stream that make up a portion of EIS ...making them slightly bigger.

   Also note that Ammonia is eliminated in the urine, so any silver
chloride that HAD been converted and DIDN'T plate onto colloidal particles,
would come out that end with the ammonia.
  If MOST of it does, that sorta confirms the theory.

Ode 

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

BIG OOPS. In the response below, ". If you look at the Altman study, the kidney 
is still removing silver at max capacity after excretion through the liver has 
dropped to a low level" should have read "



From: Norton, Steve  
To: silver-list@eskimo.com  
Sent: Sun Jan 31 12:50:56 2010
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria! 




Ode,

Certainly it is possible that silver fulminate could be formed. But how much? 
The study shows that over 170 mg of silver had accumulated in the body. Given 
the instability of silver fulminate as a precipate I would  hope it was in 
solution if it existed. It may also be possible that some silver chloride is 
converted to other silver compounds such as silver citrate in the blood.

 But it is not clear what you mean by the statement "If MOST of it does, that 
sorta confirms the theory." If you are saying that if the silver is removed by 
the kidney it must be  silver fulminate, I have to disagree. I once speculated 
that silver chloride in solutuon might be removed by the kidney because 
chloride is removed by the kidney (sodium chloride, potassium chloride). I have 
never been comfortable with that proposition. Studies have shown that other 
silver salts are removed in the liver by the attachment of glutathione to the 
molecule. Who is to say which process is to take precidence? The same issue 
exists with silver fulminate.  My tendency is to think the liver removal 
process  take precidence when silver is in solution. If you look at the Altman 
study, the kidney is still removing silver at max capacity after excretion 
through the liver has dropped to a low level. To me that says that something is 
replenishing the silver in solution which the liver removes and not the kidney. 
My guess is that silver in some form of precipate is going back into solution 
as the liver removes silver from the body.
Also, small particles are without question filtered out by the kidney.
But back to the issue of removal by the kidney confirming the presence of 
silver fulminate, I think it does no such thing. Silver chloride will be as 
likely removed by the kidney.

Regards,
   Steve N


- Original Message -
From: Ode Coyote 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
Sent: Sun Jan 31 08:39:39 2010
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!


   The other part of the theory is that fulminating silver [ a very
unstable compound...explosive even ] made by silver chlorides encounter
with ammonia plates silver out onto small silver particles in the blood
stream that make up a portion of EIS ...making them slightly bigger.

   Also note that Ammonia is eliminated in the urine, so any silver
chloride that HAD been converted and DIDN'T plate onto colloidal particles,
would come out that end with the ammonia.
  If MOST of it does, that sorta confirms the theory.

Ode 

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

Ode,

Certainly it is possible that silver fulminate could be formed. But how much? 
The study shows that over 170 mg of silver had accumulated in the body. Given 
the instability of silver fulminate as a precipate I would  hope it was in 
solution if it existed. It may also be possible that some silver chloride is 
converted to other silver compounds such as silver citrate in the blood. 

 But it is not clear what you mean by the statement "If MOST of it does, that 
sorta confirms the theory." If you are saying that if the silver is removed by 
the kidney it must be  silver fulminate, I have to disagree. I once speculated 
that silver chloride in solutuon might be removed by the kidney because 
chloride is removed by the kidney (sodium chloride, potassium chloride). I have 
never been comfortable with that proposition. Studies have shown that other 
silver salts are removed in the liver by the attachment of glutathione to the 
molecule. Who is to say which process is to take precidence? The same issue 
exists with silver fulminate.  My tendency is to think the liver removal 
process  take precidence when silver is in solution. If you look at the Altman 
study, the kidney is still removing silver at max capacity after excretion 
through the liver has dropped to a low level. To me that says that something is 
replenishing the silver in solution which the liver removes and not the kidney. 
My guess is that silver in some form of precipate is going back into solution 
as the liver removes silver from the body. 
Also, small particles are without question filtered out by the kidney. 
But back to the issue of removal by the kidney confirming the presence of 
silver fulminate, I think it does no such thing. Silver chloride will be as 
likely removed by the kidney. 

Regards,
   Steve N


- Original Message -
From: Ode Coyote 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
Sent: Sun Jan 31 08:39:39 2010
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!


   The other part of the theory is that fulminating silver [ a very 
unstable compound...explosive even ] made by silver chlorides encounter 
with ammonia plates silver out onto small silver particles in the blood 
stream that make up a portion of EIS ...making them slightly bigger.

   Also note that Ammonia is eliminated in the urine, so any silver 
chloride that HAD been converted and DIDN'T plate onto colloidal particles, 
would come out that end with the ammonia.
  If MOST of it does, that sorta confirms the theory.

Ode

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Ode Coyote]

  The other part of the theory is that fulminating silver [ a very 
unstable compound...explosive even ] made by silver chlorides encounter 
with ammonia plates silver out onto small silver particles in the blood 
stream that make up a portion of EIS ...making them slightly bigger.


  Also note that Ammonia is eliminated in the urine, so any silver 
chloride that HAD been converted and DIDN'T plate onto colloidal particles, 
would come out that end with the ammonia.

 If MOST of it does, that sorta confirms the theory.

Ode



At 05:44 PM 1/30/2010 -0600, you wrote:
I am familiar with that theory. Ammonia will disolve silver chloride. But 
if the silver chloride was disolved by ammonia it would be removed by the 
liver since the silver would be in solution. But if you look at the Altman 
study it is the kidney that is removing the excess silver and the kidney 
removes particles.

- Steve N


--
From: Neville Munn 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
Sent: Sat Jan 30 17:35:19 2010
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

Ammonia.

N.


--
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:21:05 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com

What is his theory?
- Steve N


--
From: Neville Munn 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
Sent: Sat Jan 30 17:15:45 2010
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

Steve, I meant to thank you for those questions you put on here a couple 
days ago.


Don't know if you've read Stuart Thompson's hypothesis regarding stomack 
acid and silver, unfortunately the whole story is unavailable, but what 
little remains available in the public domain of a discussion on the 
subject is a very good teaser, but at this point in time, given the 
limited information available, I believe I'm running with his theory.


N.

--
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:24:28 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com

[That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is considered argumentative 
by some but I think it is clearly the case. ]



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RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Neville Munn]

That was more a suggestion put out there to see if anyone had any ideas or 
information on the subject.  There are so many unknowns regarding this stuff 
it's difficult to find definite information, and when one does it's in such 
scientific mumbo jumbo it's hard to follow {for me}.  Meantime I'll just keep 
plodding on til I can find something I can understand.  I wasn't in the habit 
of saving info I'd found on the net when first getting into this stuff as I was 
only satisfying my own interests at the time.  There was one article 
referencing it, I just need to find it again...failed thus far though.


N.
 






From: leslie1...@windstream.net
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 20:51:07 -0600





Hi, I'm a little behind time due to email servers, but Neville you had 
mentioned earlier that there was the possibility of sulphur re CS and the blue 
moons. Did you find that again? Was wondering if my daughter might have been 
taking some sort of pill that had sulphur in it?? 
 
Also, if EIS and CS is both silver, is the only difference in the particle size 
or is there a difference in the making of it also? I am making CS. 
 
Hey, thank you.
 
Leslie

- Original Message - 
From: Neville Munn 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 5:35 PM
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

Ammonia.
 
N.
 


Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:21:05 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com




What is his theory?
- Steve N



From: Neville Munn  
To: silver-list@eskimo.com  
Sent: Sat Jan 30 17:15:45 2010
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria! 

Steve, I meant to thank you for those questions you put on here a couple days 
ago.
 
Don't know if you've read Stuart Thompson's hypothesis regarding stomack acid 
and silver, unfortunately the whole story is unavailable, but what little 
remains available in the public domain of a discussion on the subject is a very 
good teaser, but at this point in time, given the limited information 
available, I believe I'm running with his theory.
 
N.


Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:24:28 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com

[That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is considered argumentative by 
some but I think it is clearly the case. ]



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Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Mike Monett]

  Steve, please disregard my previous message.

  Some online  stores send emails encoded in Base64 as well, so  I bit
  the bullet and wrote a simple Base64 decoder for incoming email.

  Unlike commercial  or open source Base64 decoders,  mine  checks for
  the nasty viruses and trojans that can ruin your day.

  However, there really is no need to encode your posts in Base64.

  Base64 is  intended for transmitting binary files  over transmission
  links that  only  accept regular ascii characters,  like  TCP/IP. It
  increases the  file  size by about 30% due to  the  extra characters
  needed for  the encoding. This makes the files  larger,  which takes
  more space on the hard disk.

  Since the  posts  are already in ascii, there is no  need  to encode
  them.

  So if you can find the Base64 encoding feature in your email client,
  you might want to turn it off for others who may not be able to read
  your posts.

  Think of the people who may want to browse the archives,  but cannot
  read your posts since they use readers that cannot decode Base64.

  Best Regards,

  Mike M.


--
The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.

Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org

To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com

Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com

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List maintainer: Mike Devour 
   

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Leslie]

Hi, I'm a little behind time due to email servers, but Neville you had 
mentioned earlier that there was the possibility of sulphur re CS and the 
blue moons. Did you find that again? Was wondering if my daughter might have 
been taking some sort of pill that had sulphur in it??

Also, if EIS and CS is both silver, is the only difference in the particle 
size or is there a difference in the making of it also? I am making CS.

Hey, thank you.

Leslie
  - Original Message - 
  From: Neville Munn
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com
  Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 5:35 PM
  Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!


  Ammonia.

  N.


--
  Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
  Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:21:05 -0600
  From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com


  What is his theory?
  - Steve N



--
  From: Neville Munn 
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Sat Jan 30 17:15:45 2010
  Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!


  Steve, I meant to thank you for those questions you put on here a couple 
days ago.

  Don't know if you've read Stuart Thompson's hypothesis regarding stomack 
acid and silver, unfortunately the whole story is unavailable, but what 
little remains available in the public domain of a discussion on the subject 
is a very good teaser, but at this point in time, given the limited 
information available, I believe I'm running with his theory.

  N.

--
  Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
  Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:24:28 -0600
  From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com

  [That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is considered argumentative 
by some but I think it is clearly the case. ]


--
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--
  If It Exists, You'll Find it on SEEK Shopping Trolley Mechanic 

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Mike Monett]

Steve, when you turn on Base64 encoding, this is what all your posts look
like for those people who do not use Outlook and other email readers that
don't automatically decode incoming messages:

>VGhhbmtzIERlZS4gVGhlIGRpZmZlcmVuY2VzIGJldHdlZW4gdGhlIEFsdG1hbiBzdHVkeSBhbmQg
>c2lsdmVyIHJlc2VhcmNoIHN0dWRpZXMgaGFzIGFsd2F5cyBib3RoZXJlZCBtZSBiZWNhdXNlIHRo
>ZXJlIHdhcyBubyBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBmb3IgdGhlIGRpZmZlcmVuY2UuIA0KSSBhbSBhIGxpdHRs
>ZSBjb25jZXJuZWQgdGhhdCBteSBwb3N0IG1heSBub3QgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGNsZWFyLiBJIHdhcyBp
>biBhIGh1cnJ5IGFuZCBJIGVkaXRlZCBpdCBzZXZlcmFsIHRpbWVzIHRvIGdldCBpdCB0byBmaXQg
>aW4gdGhlIG1lc3NhZ2Ugc2l6ZSBsaW1pdHMuIFNvIGp1c3QgaW4gY2FzZSBoZXJlIGlzIGEgc3Vt
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>ICBkZWUNCg=

I use Pimmy, since it is a plain ASCII email reader. This means it will not
try to decode incoming email, which could contain harmful viruses or links
to trojans. It will not respond to HTML tags, such as embedded IFRAME
links. It will not try to display viruses embedded in GIF files. You can
always tell this when the header starts with "MZ" instead of "GIF".

Pimmy does not try to automatically activate the Acrobat pdf reader. First
of all, I do not use Acrobat. It has many known vulnerabilities that allow
viruses to take over your computer. Second, I am always suspicious of any
attachment I get from anyone, since the sender and email address could
easily be forged. If your software does all these things, you are at risk
for unwanted viruses to take over your computer, wipe out your bank account
and credit card resources, infect all the friends in your address book, and
turn your computer into a botnet. Bad idea.

I can decode your posts, but it takes a lot of effort. So to prevent this
from happening, please turn off the Base64 encoding, and also the HTML.
HTML is not needed in a plain ascii forum like the silverlist.

If you look at the front page for the silverlist, Mike D. recommends
turning the HTML off. This is a very good idea. I tried removing the html
from a typical digest. The original filesize was 60kB, and after the html
was removed, the file shrank to 22kB. So the HTML increases the size by a
factor of three, and adds nothing to the information in the post.

I don't have time to decode all your messages, so could you please send
them to me offline with

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

I am familiar with that theory. Ammonia will disolve silver chloride. But if 
the silver chloride was disolved by ammonia it would be removed by the liver 
since the silver would be in solution. But if you look at the Altman study it 
is the kidney that is removing the excess silver and the kidney removes 
particles. 
- Steve N




From: Neville Munn  
To: silver-list@eskimo.com  
Sent: Sat Jan 30 17:35:19 2010
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria! 


Ammonia.
 
N.
 



Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:21:05 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com


What is his theory?
- Steve N



From: Neville Munn  
To: silver-list@eskimo.com  
Sent: Sat Jan 30 17:15:45 2010
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria! 


Steve, I meant to thank you for those questions you put on here a couple days 
ago.
 
Don't know if you've read Stuart Thompson's hypothesis regarding stomack acid 
and silver, unfortunately the whole story is unavailable, but what little 
remains available in the public domain of a discussion on the subject is a very 
good teaser, but at this point in time, given the limited information 
available, I believe I'm running with his theory.
 
N.



Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:24:28 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com

[That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is considered argumentative by 
some but I think it is clearly the case. ]




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RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Neville Munn]

Ammonia in the body I meant to say of course, can't say much about it cos I've 
only been able to find a brief discussion on it?  What I did find is a teaser 
though, would like to find more info on the subject.
 
N.
 


Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:21:05 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com




What is his theory?
- Steve N



From: Neville Munn  
To: silver-list@eskimo.com  
Sent: Sat Jan 30 17:15:45 2010
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria! 

Steve, I meant to thank you for those questions you put on here a couple days 
ago.
 
Don't know if you've read Stuart Thompson's hypothesis regarding stomack acid 
and silver, unfortunately the whole story is unavailable, but what little 
remains available in the public domain of a discussion on the subject is a very 
good teaser, but at this point in time, given the limited information 
available, I believe I'm running with his theory.
 
N.


Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:24:28 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com

[That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is considered argumentative by 
some but I think it is clearly the case. ]



Learn how Video chat with Windows Live Messenger
  
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View photos of singles in your area! Browse profiles for FREE
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RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Neville Munn]

Ammonia.

 

N.
 


Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:21:05 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com




What is his theory?
- Steve N



From: Neville Munn  
To: silver-list@eskimo.com  
Sent: Sat Jan 30 17:15:45 2010
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria! 

Steve, I meant to thank you for those questions you put on here a couple days 
ago.
 
Don't know if you've read Stuart Thompson's hypothesis regarding stomack acid 
and silver, unfortunately the whole story is unavailable, but what little 
remains available in the public domain of a discussion on the subject is a very 
good teaser, but at this point in time, given the limited information 
available, I believe I'm running with his theory.
 
N.


Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:24:28 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com

[That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is considered argumentative by 
some but I think it is clearly the case. ]



Learn how Video chat with Windows Live Messenger
  
_
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Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

What is his theory?
- Steve N



From: Neville Munn  
To: silver-list@eskimo.com  
Sent: Sat Jan 30 17:15:45 2010
Subject: RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria! 


Steve, I meant to thank you for those questions you put on here a couple days 
ago.
 
Don't know if you've read Stuart Thompson's hypothesis regarding stomack acid 
and silver, unfortunately the whole story is unavailable, but what little 
remains available in the public domain of a discussion on the subject is a very 
good teaser, but at this point in time, given the limited information 
available, I believe I'm running with his theory.
 
N.



Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:24:28 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com

[That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is considered argumentative by 
some but I think it is clearly the case. ]




Learn how Video chat with Windows Live Messenger 
<http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/messenger/article/870686/video-chat-with-messenger>
 

RE: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Neville Munn]

Steve, I meant to thank you for those questions you put on here a couple days 
ago.

 

Don't know if you've read Stuart Thompson's hypothesis regarding stomack acid 
and silver, unfortunately the whole story is unavailable, but what little 
remains available in the public domain of a discussion on the subject is a very 
good teaser, but at this point in time, given the limited information 
available, I believe I'm running with his theory.

 

N.


Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:24:28 -0600
From: stephen.nor...@ngc.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com


[That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is considered argumentative by 
some but I think it is clearly the case. ]
  
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Video chat with Windows Live Messenger Learn how
http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/messenger/article/870686/video-chat-with-messenger

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Brickeyk]

In a message dated 1/29/2010 2:56:27 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
stephen.nor...@ngc.com writes:

Average  daily amount used. 32 ounces
Average ppm of EIS  10 PPM
How EIS was  made 30 VDC and stopped at 8ma current
Number of years till nail beds  turned blue/grey 3 or 4 yeas
Any unusual supplements used in conjunction  with the EIS Used Gatorade Aid 
powder to mix with EIS and drank  this in place of water all day. I used 
well water vice Distilled  Water.
Brickey

 

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

Uh oh. 1 nm below should have been 2 nm. 
- Steve N



From: Norton, Steve  
To: silver-list@eskimo.com  
Sent: Sat Jan 30 14:24:28 2010
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria! 



Thanks Dee. The differences between the Altman study and silver research 
studies has always bothered me because there was no explanation for the 
difference.
I am a little concerned that my post may not have been clear. I was in a hurry 
and I edited it several times to get it to fit in the message size limits. So 
just in case here is a summary.

The altman study documents how EIS is eliminated when there is excess EIS in 
the body but not at normal use amounts. But careful examination of the study 
also shows that the liver does process out EIS and is the primary excretion 
path when EIS in the body is no longer in an overload condition.

I believe that the most useful silver is silver in solution. Silver in 
particulate form may give off an occasional ion but it is nowhere as effective 
as silver in solution. That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is 
considered argumentative by some but I think it is clearly the case. Also, it 
is believed by some that the silver chloride needs to be in solution to pass 
into the bloodstream. I think that the silver chloride particles formed in the 
stomach are small enough to pass through the intestinal wall as is. 

What the Altman study shows is that when silver chloride exceeds the solubility 
limits of silver chloride in blood the excess silver chloride exists as 
particles that are then filtered out by the kidney. This provides an alternate 
excretion path that other forms of silver, except nano sized CS (roughly 1 nm 
or smaller), do not have when the liver bilary excretion path is overloaded. 
This is very good because when the liver bilary excretion path is overloaded, 
the excess silver is increasingly deposited in the tissues.
The Altman study shows the liver processing out silver at its maximum capacity 
throughout the 96 days. This confirms that as silver chloride in solution is 
removed by the kidney, the eliminated silver is replaced by silver chloride 
particles going into solution to maintain dissolved silver chloride it the 
solubility limit.
I hope this helps to understand my previous post.

 - Steve N

- Original Message -
From: Dorothy Fitzpatrick 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
Sent: Sat Jan 30 12:21:57 2010
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

Good post Steve.  dee

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

As far as I am concerned, anything I post can be provided to others. 
- Steve N



From: Dorothy Fitzpatrick  
To: silver-list@eskimo.com  
Sent: Sat Jan 30 14:54:37 2010
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria! 


Yes and one I will keep Steve, in case I am asked this question, if that's ok?  
dee

On 30 Jan 2010, at 20:24, Norton, Steve wrote:


Thanks Dee. The differences between the Altman study and silver 
research studies has always bothered me because there was no explanation for 
the difference.
I am a little concerned that my post may not have been clear. I was in 
a hurry and I edited it several times to get it to fit in the message size 
limits. So just in case here is a summary.

The altman study documents how EIS is eliminated when there is excess 
EIS in the body but not at normal use amounts. But careful examination of the 
study also shows that the liver does process out EIS and is the primary 
excretion path when EIS in the body is no longer in an overload condition.

I believe that the most useful silver is silver in solution. Silver in 
particulate form may give off an occasional ion but it is nowhere as effective 
as silver in solution. That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is 
considered argumentative by some but I think it is clearly the case. Also, it 
is believed by some that the silver chloride needs to be in solution to pass 
into the bloodstream. I think that the silver chloride particles formed in the 
stomach are small enough to pass through the intestinal wall as is. 

What the Altman study shows is that when silver chloride exceeds the 
solubility limits of silver chloride in blood the excess silver chloride exists 
as particles that are then filtered out by the kidney. This provides an 
alternate excretion path that other forms of silver, except nano sized CS 
(roughly 1 nm or smaller), do not have when the liver bilary excretion path is 
overloaded. This is very good because when the liver bilary excretion path is 
overloaded, the excess silver is increasingly deposited in the tissues.
The Altman study shows the liver processing out silver at its maximum 
capacity throughout the 96 days. This confirms that as silver chloride in 
solution is removed by the kidney, the eliminated silver is replaced by silver 
chloride particles going into solution to maintain dissolved silver chloride it 
the solubility limit.
I hope this helps to understand my previous post.

 - Steve N

-

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Dorothy Fitzpatrick]

Yes and one I will keep Steve, in case I am asked this question, if that's ok?  
dee

On 30 Jan 2010, at 20:24, Norton, Steve wrote:

> Thanks Dee. The differences between the Altman study and silver research 
> studies has always bothered me because there was no explanation for the 
> difference.
> I am a little concerned that my post may not have been clear. I was in a 
> hurry and I edited it several times to get it to fit in the message size 
> limits. So just in case here is a summary.
> 
> The altman study documents how EIS is eliminated when there is excess EIS in 
> the body but not at normal use amounts. But careful examination of the study 
> also shows that the liver does process out EIS and is the primary excretion 
> path when EIS in the body is no longer in an overload condition.
> 
> I believe that the most useful silver is silver in solution. Silver in 
> particulate form may give off an occasional ion but it is nowhere as 
> effective as silver in solution. That EIS forms silver chloride in the 
> stomach is considered argumentative by some but I think it is clearly the 
> case. Also, it is believed by some that the silver chloride needs to be in 
> solution to pass into the bloodstream. I think that the silver chloride 
> particles formed in the stomach are small enough to pass through the 
> intestinal wall as is. 
> 
> What the Altman study shows is that when silver chloride exceeds the 
> solubility limits of silver chloride in blood the excess silver chloride 
> exists as particles that are then filtered out by the kidney. This provides 
> an alternate excretion path that other forms of silver, except nano sized CS 
> (roughly 1 nm or smaller), do not have when the liver bilary excretion path 
> is overloaded. This is very good because when the liver bilary excretion path 
> is overloaded, the excess silver is increasingly deposited in the tissues.
> The Altman study shows the liver processing out silver at its maximum 
> capacity throughout the 96 days. This confirms that as silver chloride in 
> solution is removed by the kidney, the eliminated silver is replaced by 
> silver chloride particles going into solution to maintain dissolved silver 
> chloride it the solubility limit.
> I hope this helps to understand my previous post.
> 
>  - Steve N
> 
> -

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

Thanks Dee. The differences between the Altman study and silver research 
studies has always bothered me because there was no explanation for the 
difference. 
I am a little concerned that my post may not have been clear. I was in a hurry 
and I edited it several times to get it to fit in the message size limits. So 
just in case here is a summary. 

The altman study documents how EIS is eliminated when there is excess EIS in 
the body but not at normal use amounts. But careful examination of the study 
also shows that the liver does process out EIS and is the primary excretion 
path when EIS in the body is no longer in an overload condition. 

I believe that the most useful silver is silver in solution. Silver in 
particulate form may give off an occasional ion but it is nowhere as effective 
as silver in solution. That EIS forms silver chloride in the stomach is 
considered argumentative by some but I think it is clearly the case. Also, it 
is believed by some that the silver chloride needs to be in solution to pass 
into the bloodstream. I think that the silver chloride particles formed in the 
stomach are small enough to pass through the intestinal wall as is.  

What the Altman study shows is that when silver chloride exceeds the solubility 
limits of silver chloride in blood the excess silver chloride exists as 
particles that are then filtered out by the kidney. This provides an alternate 
excretion path that other forms of silver, except nano sized CS (roughly 1 nm 
or smaller), do not have when the liver bilary excretion path is overloaded. 
This is very good because when the liver bilary excretion path is overloaded, 
the excess silver is increasingly deposited in the tissues. 
The Altman study shows the liver processing out silver at its maximum capacity 
throughout the 96 days. This confirms that as silver chloride in solution is 
removed by the kidney, the eliminated silver is replaced by silver chloride 
particles going into solution to maintain dissolved silver chloride it the 
solubility limit. 
I hope this helps to understand my previous post. 

 - Steve N

- Original Message -
From: Dorothy Fitzpatrick 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
Sent: Sat Jan 30 12:21:57 2010
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

Good post Steve.  dee

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Dorothy Fitzpatrick]

Good post Steve.  dee

On 29 Jan 2010, at 22:56, Norton, Steve wrote:

> 
> In analyzing Dave's data and reviewing again the Altman study I believe
> that I have found (or more accurately, stumbled upon) the reason why EIS
> is safer to use than other forms of silver. It also explains why EIS is
> both processed the same as other silver compounds, primarily by the
> liver, and also differently at the same time. I will go into that
> shortly. I think you will find it interesting. Either as a long sought
> after answer or as an opportunity to tell me what an idiot I am. 
> 
> But first, a request. I think that some good information can be gained
> from evaluating the silver usage of those on the list who have blue
> moons in their fingernails. I would like to request all who can, to
> provide it the following info:
> 
> Average daily amount used.
> Average ppm of EIS
> How EIS was made
> Number of years till nail beds turned blue/grey
> Any unusual supplements used in conjunction with the EIS
> 
> The more data we have the better we can know how to best use EIS. While
> I think that there are few things we can conclusively draw from Dave's
> experience, one item think I feel is encouraging is that there appears
> to be a significant difference between the time blue moons appear and
> when argyria might occur. And maybe we can use Dave's timeline as a
> rough predictor for someone with blue moons to develop more serious
> signs with or without changes in usage. And yes, it would be very
> speculative but it might be better that what we have now - nothing.
> 
> For those who might wish to brush up on the Roger Altman Silver
> Elimination Study, here is a link to Roger's report.
> http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/AltmanStudy.PDF
> 
> 
> And here is a discussion of the study and silver elimination in general:
> http://www.info-archive.com/colsil%20silvertox.ht
> 
> 
> First, I would like to discuss how much silver the liver can the liver
> excrete in a day. When silver compounds in the blood exceed that limit
> it leads to increased deposition of silver in the tissues. The excess
> silver has to go somewhere. The following study puts that at about 1 mg
> of silver per day (or 3.4 oz of 10 ppm CS):
> 
> "In a study involving biologic monitoring of workers (n = 37) in one of
> the silver smelting and refining industries in which the exposure is
> entirely
> by inhalation, silver was found in the blood (0.011 :g per milliliter
> [mL]),
> urine (<0.005 :g/mL), and feces (15 :g/g). Control subjects excreted
> about
> 1.5 :g/g in the feces (n = 35). The author suggests that human fecal
> excretion
> of silver at exposure levels equal to the Threshold Limit Value (TLV)
> (0.1 mg per cubic meter [m3]) would be about 1 mg of silver per day (Di-
> Vincenzo et al. 1985)."
> 
> If you exceed this limit continuously over a period of time you will
> have excess silver deposited in the tissues. For non EIS silver
> compounds, it has been found that roughly 10% of the silver ingested is
> absorbed into the bloodstream. That would indicate that you can take up
> to 34 oz of 10 ppm CS per day and not saturate the biliary excretion
> path. However, the Altman study shows that 100% of ingested EIS enters
> the bloodstream and so EIS should be limited to 3.4 oz of 10 ppm EIS, or
> equivalent, to remain within the bilary excretion capability of the
> liver. However, should you exceed that amount, EIS is uniquely processed
> by the body and that is where EIS becomes safer to use and less likely
> to cause argyria.
> 
> To understand what happens when you take more EIS than the liver bilary
> excretion path can handle, you need to look at the Altman study. 
> 
> The Altman study starts by Roger Altman taking 2.34 mg of silver, in the
> form of EIS, daily for an extended period of time. That amount is
> significantly higher than the 1 mg daily amount the liver can process
> and caused a buildup of silver in Roger's system. Roger then stopped
> taking any EIS and then measured over a 96 day period the excretion of
> silver out through the liver (feces) and the kidney (urine). Over the 96
> day period, the silver excreted through the feces was fairly constant
> but varying around 1.5 mg per day. I believe that this represents the
> excretion capacity of Roger's bilary excretion path and is consistent
> with the study referenced previously. 
> 
> What is interesting, and what sets EIS apart from other forms of silver,
> is what was happening in the kidney. For silver compounds other than
> EIS, only a little silver is excreted through the urine. Even when there
> is excess silver in bloodstream or when the bilary excretion path is
>

Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Norton, Steve]

Good point. Only looking at the negative won't allow you to see the whole 
picture.  Thanks for the info. 

 - Steve N



- Original Message -
From: Mike Monett 
To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
Sent: Fri Jan 29 23:05:40 2010
Subject: Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!


  > But first,  a request. I think that some good  information  can be
  > gained from  evaluating the silver usage of those on the  list who
  > have blue moons in their fingernails. I would like to  request all
  > who can, to provide it the following info:

  >Average daily amount used
  >Average ppm of EIS
  >How EIS was made
  >Number of years till nail beds turned blue/grey
  >Any unusual supplements used in conjunction with the EIS

  Steve, you  need some more data points from people who  do  not have
  blue moons. Here's mine:

  Average daily amount ingested : < 100ugm sublingual
  Number of years : ~8
  Average ppm of EIS : 14uS after correction for contamination
  How EIS was made : LVDC plot conductance curve
  Number of years till nail beds turned blue/grey : N/A
  Any unusual supplements used in conjunction with the EIS : none 

  Regards,

  Mike M.


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Re: CS>WHY EIS is less likely to cause Argyria!

[Mike Monett]

  > But first,  a request. I think that some good  information  can be
  > gained from  evaluating the silver usage of those on the  list who
  > have blue moons in their fingernails. I would like to  request all
  > who can, to provide it the following info:

  >Average daily amount used
  >Average ppm of EIS
  >How EIS was made
  >Number of years till nail beds turned blue/grey
  >Any unusual supplements used in conjunction with the EIS

  Steve, you  need some more data points from people who  do  not have
  blue moons. Here's mine:

  Average daily amount ingested : < 100ugm sublingual
  Number of years : ~8
  Average ppm of EIS : 14uS after correction for contamination
  How EIS was made : LVDC plot conductance curve
  Number of years till nail beds turned blue/grey : N/A
  Any unusual supplements used in conjunction with the EIS : none 

  Regards,

  Mike M.


--
The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.

Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org

To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com

Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com

The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down...

List maintainer: Mike Devour