RE: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
Hi Marshall, Any more details on the FDA thing? James Osbourne Holmes a...@trail.com FTNWO -Original Message- From: Marshall Dudley [SMTP:mdud...@execonn.com] Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 8:44 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject:Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S Fred wrote: Sorry Marshall, I left out the arc part, which is the wierder part of the process - why use a high temperature arc in air? (To vaporize the silver and spalt it into the water but also breakdown the air) Of course I can also add: why us 10,000 volts for a 2 volt DC process? and.. why not use polarity reversing LVDC?, if you just want to get all of the released silver into solution? Some will reply that the feature is that it produces in volume, but the 100 volt pickle jar array recently posted also will! I believe that is correct. For economic reasons brute force sometimes is more economical than elegance. They both produce comparable products. Another reason may be that there is information that indicates that CS sold must be made by the HVAC method according to the FDA. Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
Excellent observation. James Osbourne Holmes a...@trail.com FTNWO -Original Message- From: Ivan Anderson [SMTP:i...@win.co.nz] Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 5:22 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject:Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S Roger, Surely this investigation is flawed, or at least back to front. Would it not have been of greater interest to find the most effective silver colloid, and then determine particle size and method of production, rather than eliminate subjects (15) according to particle size, and then test the remaining (4) for efficacy? The results may well be the same...but what is the reason for making colloidal silver in the first place. Regards Ivan. - Original Message - From: rogalt...@aol.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, 4 July 2000 04:08 Subject: Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S Marshall: Not only the FDA, but Professor Gibbs of the University of Delaware in his recently published booklet, Silver Colloids: Do They Work?, screened 15 commercial CS products using two independent microscopic techniques to determine particle size distribution. I believe the only type of CS that made it through both types of microscopic screening requirements was that produced by HVAC. From there he went on to test for effectiveness in killing a moderately resistant bacteria. Only one of the remaining 4 (I believe) HVAC products was given a 4 star rating (5 star is the highest possible rating). The remainder got 3 star or lower. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
Roger, Surely this investigation is flawed, or at least back to front. Would it not have been of greater interest to find the most effective silver colloid, and then determine particle size and method of production, rather than eliminate subjects (15) according to particle size, and then test the remaining (4) for efficacy? The results may well be the same...but what is the reason for making colloidal silver in the first place. Regards Ivan. - Original Message - From: rogalt...@aol.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, 4 July 2000 04:08 Subject: Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S Marshall: Not only the FDA, but Professor Gibbs of the University of Delaware in his recently published booklet, Silver Colloids: Do They Work?, screened 15 commercial CS products using two independent microscopic techniques to determine particle size distribution. I believe the only type of CS that made it through both types of microscopic screening requirements was that produced by HVAC. From there he went on to test for effectiveness in killing a moderately resistant bacteria. Only one of the remaining 4 (I believe) HVAC products was given a 4 star rating (5 star is the highest possible rating). The remainder got 3 star or lower. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
In a message dated 7/4/00 6:32:09 AM EST, i...@win.co.nz writes: Subj: Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S Date: 7/4/00 6:32:09 AM EST From: i...@win.co.nz (Ivan Anderson) Reply-to: silver-list@eskimo.com To:silver-list@eskimo.com Roger, Surely this investigation is flawed, or at least back to front. Would it not have been of greater interest to find the most effective silver colloid, and then determine particle size and method of production, rather than eliminate subjects (15) according to particle size, and then test the remaining (4) for efficacy? The results may well be the same...but what is the reason for making colloidal silver in the first place. Regards Ivan. Ivan: The same thought crossed my mind, so I posed my questions to him in such a manner as not to (I hope) ruffle his feathers. In any case, I think we have to get more information about his preliminary experiments first. But I must tell you that I'm delighted to see the beginnings of solid investigative work in this area. Let's all send him good vibes, and any other support we can think of. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
Ted: I spent a great deal of time and money testing CS retention and elimination (using myself as a guinea pig) using CS generated from a DC SOURCE so I'm convinced that it works! What I don't like about it is that I have yet to produce a DC CS product that is stable for more than six weeks. I know it can be done; I just haven't been able to do it myself. I wonder how many silver listers have run into this same problem? And it IS a problem if the strength of your CS weakens over time, and you're not aware of it, how can you be sure that it is still potent enough to destroy those little critters just when you may need it the most? Roger Does it really make a difference? Date it and remake it! Earle Send FREE Greetings for Father's Day--or any day! Click here: http://www.whowhere.lycos.com/redirects/fathers_day.rdct -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
Hi Ivan, On Tue, 4 Jul 2000 23:22:14 +1200, Ivan Anderson i...@win.co.nz wrote: Surely this investigation is flawed, or at least back to front. Would it not have been of greater interest to find the most effective silver colloid, and then determine particle size and method of production, rather than eliminate subjects (15) according to particle size, and then test the remaining (4) for efficacy? The results may well be the same...but what is the reason for making colloidal silver in the first place. Absolutely! The investigator has somehow predetermined what particle size should be tested. Perhaps there's something in the report that talks about his assumptions. If not, that would be another flaw. -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
Fred wrote: Sorry Marshall, I left out the arc part, which is the wierder part of the process - why use a high temperature arc in air? (To vaporize the silver and spalt it into the water but also breakdown the air) Of course I can also add: why us 10,000 volts for a 2 volt DC process? and.. why not use polarity reversing LVDC?, if you just want to get all of the released silver into solution? Some will reply that the feature is that it produces in volume, but the 100 volt pickle jar array recently posted also will! I believe that is correct. For economic reasons brute force sometimes is more economical than elegance. They both produce comparable products. Another reason may be that there is information that indicates that CS sold must be made by the HVAC method according to the FDA. Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
In a message dated 7/3/00 9:55:20 AM EST, mdud...@execonn.com writes: Fred wrote: Sorry Marshall, I left out the arc part, which is the wierder part of the process - why use a high temperature arc in air? (To vaporize the silver and spalt it into the water but also breakdown the air) Of course I can also add: why us 10,000 volts for a 2 volt DC process? and.. why not use polarity reversing LVDC?, if you just want to get all of the released silver into solution? Some will reply that the feature is that it produces in volume, but the 100 volt pickle jar array recently posted also will! I believe that is correct. For economic reasons brute force sometimes is more economical than elegance. They both produce comparable products. Another reason may be that there is information that indicates that CS sold must be made by the HVAC method according to the FDA. Marshall Marshall: Not only the FDA, but Professor Gibbs of the University of Delaware in his recently published booklet, Silver Colloids: Do They Work?, screened 15 commercial CS products using two independent microscopic techniques to determine particle size distribution. I believe the only type of CS that made it through both types of microscopic screening requirements was that produced by HVAC. From there he went on to test for effectiveness in killing a moderately resistant bacteria. Only one of the remaining 4 (I believe) HVAC products was given a 4 star rating (5 star is the highest possible rating). The remainder got 3 star or lower. As far as sputtering silver off an electrode is concerned, it IS difficult to achieve, but that's probably because my processing technique is rather crude. I need a good HVAC expert to put his shoulder (preferably his mind as well) to the wheel. Fred, are you available? Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
rogalt...@aol.com wrote: Marshall: Not only the FDA, but Professor Gibbs of the University of Delaware in his recently published booklet, Silver Colloids: Do They Work?, screened 15 commercial CS products using two independent microscopic techniques to determine particle size distribution. I believe the only type of CS that made it through both types of microscopic screening requirements was that produced by HVAC. From there he went on to test for effectiveness in killing a moderately resistant bacteria. Only one of the remaining 4 (I believe) HVAC products was given a 4 star rating (5 star is the highest possible rating). The remainder got 3 star or lower. Interesting. Do you know where I can get a copy of that book? I use to think HVAC was better, and we use an HVAC process, but there has been so much contradictory information posted lately, I am having doubts. Thanks, Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
In a message dated 7/3/00 12:03:57 PM EST, mdud...@execonn.com writes: rogalt...@aol.com wrote: Marshall: Not only the FDA, but Professor Gibbs of the University of Delaware in his recently published booklet, Silver Colloids: Do They Work?, screened 15 commercial CS products using two independent microscopic techniques to determine particle size distribution. I believe the only type of CS that made it through both types of microscopic screening requirements was that produced by HVAC. From there he went on to test for effectiveness in killing a moderately resistant bacteria. Only one of the remaining 4 (I believe) HVAC products was given a 4 star rating (5 star is the highest possible rating). The remainder got 3 star or lower. Interesting. Do you know where I can get a copy of that book? I use to think HVAC was better, and we use an HVAC process, but there has been so much contradictory information posted lately, I am having doubts. Thanks, Marshall Marshall: I believe I bought it a couple of weeks ago from Amazon.com. About $6.50 for the booklet and another $4.50 in SH. It's very encouraging when you see academics get involved with CS -- particularly when this one seems to be targeting the quasi-lay public. And although Professor Gibbs has taken only a first step, I suspect it's likely that he will have another, even more interesting, report coming out soon. BTW, as of several months ago, he has started publishing a CS newsletter which comes out 4X a year. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
What about Dr. Crooks studies that no pathogen he tested survived more than six minutes in a dish of colloidal silver, I doubt if they had this HVAC method at that time. Blessings Ted rogalt...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 7/3/00 12:03:57 PM EST, mdud...@execonn.com writes: rogalt...@aol.com wrote: Marshall: Not only the FDA, but Professor Gibbs of the University of Delaware in his recently published booklet, Silver Colloids: Do They Work?, screened 15 commercial CS products using two independent microscopic techniques to determine particle size distribution. I believe the only type of CS that made it through both types of microscopic screening requirements was that produced by HVAC. From there he went on to test for effectiveness in killing a moderately resistant bacteria. Only one of the remaining 4 (I believe) HVAC products was given a 4 star rating (5 star is the highest possible rating). The remainder got 3 star or lower. Interesting. Do you know where I can get a copy of that book? I use to think HVAC was better, and we use an HVAC process, but there has been so much contradictory information posted lately, I am having doubts. Thanks, Marshall Marshall: I believe I bought it a couple of weeks ago from Amazon.com. About $6.50 for the booklet and another $4.50 in SH. It's very encouraging when you see academics get involved with CS -- particularly when this one seems to be targeting the quasi-lay public. And although Professor Gibbs has taken only a first step, I suspect it's likely that he will have another, even more interesting, report coming out soon. BTW, as of several months ago, he has started publishing a CS newsletter which comes out 4X a year. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
In a message dated 7/3/00 1:30:23 PM EST, t...@home.com writes: What about Dr. Crooks studies that no pathogen he tested survived more than six minutes in a dish of colloidal silver, I doubt if they had this HVAC method at that time. Blessings Ted Ted: Your not really implying that I think that LVDC CS doesn't work are you? If you think that look up my prior posts. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
Hi Roger: Absolutely not, what I am saying is that these test were done prior to HVAC method being available, which one works best, who knows?. If a person makes CS by what ever method and this works for them, then what does it matter which method is used! I continually see postings that people spend hours making CS, I have used a Sota unit for several years which makes for me between 3 to 5 PPM of CS every time, mind you I make my own distilled water. I make a two lt. of CS in 40 minutes which test between 3 to 5 PPM, I equate the difference due to the distilled water. Water I find can be different each time it is distilled, and nobody been able to prove otherwise to me up to this date. I trust this answers your question. Blessings Ted rogalt...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 7/3/00 1:30:23 PM EST, t...@home.com writes: What about Dr. Crooks studies that no pathogen he tested survived more than six minutes in a dish of colloidal silver, I doubt if they had this HVAC method at that time. Blessings Ted Ted: Your not really implying that I think that LVDC CS doesn't work are you? If you think that look up my prior posts. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
In a message dated 7/3/00 2:51:27 PM EST, t...@home.com writes: Hi Roger: Absolutely not, what I am saying is that these test were done prior to HVAC method being available, which one works best, who knows?. If a person makes CS by what ever method and this works for them, then what does it matter which method is used! I continually see postings that people spend hours making CS, I have used a Sota unit for several years which makes for me between 3 to 5 PPM of CS every time, mind you I make my own distilled water. I make a two lt. of CS in 40 minutes which test between 3 to 5 PPM, I equate the difference due to the distilled water. Water I find can be different each time it is distilled, and nobody been able to prove otherwise to me up to this date. I trust this answers your question. Blessings Ted Ted: I spent a great deal of time and money testing CS retention and elimination (using myself as a guinea pig) using CS generated from a DC SOURCE so I'm convinced that it works! What I don't like about it is that I have yet to produce a DC CS product that is stable for more than six weeks. I know it can be done; I just haven't been able to do it myself. I wonder how many silver listers have run into this same problem? And it IS a problem if the strength of your CS weakens over time, and you're not aware of it, how can you be sure that it is still potent enough to destroy those little critters just when you may need it the most? Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
In a message dated 6/21/00 11:00:04 PM EST, mdud...@execonn.com writes: It appears that for optimum results you need for the voltage/frequency = 150 or so. Marshall: How did you arrive at the 150 ratio? That seems to be optimum with 60 hertz, 10K volts. Low voltage requires much lower alternation. I am assuming a linear relationship, but it may not be. Incidentally, I was told by an electrical engineer who represents the manufacturer of my solid state (neon sign) HVAC power supply that its frequency is ~ 12000 Htz at 10,000 volts. Could you explain the discrepancy between that figure and the 60 Htz you assume for 10,000 volt AC? Sounds like you have one of the high frequency units that uses a small coil with a solid state switcher. I use a plain old transformer that runs at line frequency. Marshall: Marshall: Then how does the fact that close to a 1:1 ratio and 150:1 ratio impact my HVAC CS product? Marshall: Perhaps some background on my power supply will help you answer: I'm pretty sure that the frequency in not 60 Htz. because a standard multimeter set to measure millamps reads a value that's nowhere close (much less as I recall) to the constant ~30 ma output that's supposed to be delivered by this unit. From what I understand, it seeks a voltage between 4000 and 10,000 volts that will deliver this amperage. If system resistance is such that the required voltage falls outside this range it cannot operate (the power supply is then put on standby -- indicated by a flashing red light -- awaiting the resistance to falls into its range. For those not experienced with forming plasmas, air resistance can change abruptly and dramatically once a gas becomes ionized), although above 1 volts and below 15,000 volts it's supposed to generate a reduced current, but I don't think this current is sufficient to produce an arc. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
rogalt...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 6/21/00 11:00:04 PM EST, mdud...@execonn.com writes: It appears that for optimum results you need for the voltage/frequency = 150 or so. Marshall: How did you arrive at the 150 ratio? That seems to be optimum with 60 hertz, 10K volts. Low voltage requires much lower alternation. I am assuming a linear relationship, but it may not be. Incidentally, I was told by an electrical engineer who represents the manufacturer of my solid state (neon sign) HVAC power supply that its frequency is ~ 12000 Htz at 10,000 volts. Could you explain the discrepancy between that figure and the 60 Htz you assume for 10,000 volt AC? Sounds like you have one of the high frequency units that uses a small coil with a solid state switcher. I use a plain old transformer that runs at line frequency. Marshall: Marshall: Then how does the fact that close to a 1:1 ratio and 150:1 ratio impact my HVAC CS product? Marshall: Perhaps some background on my power supply will help you answer: I'm pretty sure that the frequency in not 60 Htz. because a standard multimeter set to measure millamps reads a value that's nowhere close (much less as I recall) to the constant ~30 ma output that's supposed to be delivered by this unit. From what I understand, it seeks a voltage between 4000 and 10,000 volts that will deliver this amperage. If system resistance is such that the required voltage falls outside this range it cannot operate (the power supply is then put on standby -- indicated by a flashing red light -- awaiting the resistance to falls into its range. For those not experienced with forming plasmas, air resistance can change abruptly and dramatically once a gas becomes ionized), although above 1 volts and below 15,000 volts it's supposed to generate a reduced current, but I don't think this current is sufficient to produce an arc. I have no idea. Part of the reason for using high voltage at high frequencies it so that the particles are sufficient far from the anode they all do not get pulled back on the next half cycle. At 10 Khtz, the period is so short, I am surprised you get much production at all. Perhaps convective currents are assisting by adding stiring. I am curious. How long does it take to produce how much CS using what current? My setup produces 200 ppm gallon per amp per hour (4 gallon per hour of 5 ppm at 100 mA). Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
In a message dated 6/22/00 10:58:05 AM EST, mdud...@execonn.com writes: I am curious. How long does it take to produce how much CS using what current? My setup produces 200 ppm gallon per amp per hour (4 gallon per hour of 5 ppm at 100 mA). Marshall Marshall: So your production rate is: 3.78 L/gal X 4 gal/hr X 5mgCS/L X 1/100 mA = 0.756 mg CS/ma(hr). My effective production rate is (for sputtering and non-sputtering operation because sputtering, being somewhat tricky to attain, is achievable for only a small percentage of the time): 30.5 mg X 2.5 gal/7hr X 3.78 L/gal X 1/30 ma = 1.37 mg CS/ma(hr). I am constantly working towards a higher sputtering percentage which I estimate is still substantially below 20% of operating time. However, I have good reason to believe (material balances for both submerged and arc-producing electrodes) that about 95% of my production comes from sputtering alone. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CSEND OF - CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS (Thank God!)
At 11:02 PM 6/21/2000, you wrote:
I can not test efficiency but they may have some
slimy stuff I can culture!
Maybe an ad in the paper, Tough hold man looking for some slime to kill!
Fred: I'd love to see the results of side by side tests -- Fred's vintage
('93 was a good year, don't you think) LVDC CS vs Roger's HVAC (weird
science) CS. Of course, you'll run the tests at 1 PPM, right?
1% it shall be!
I have only one other sample now as the last one submitted leaked and
dissolved the Bio-degradeable peanut packing ...
Fred: That HVAC CS is wicked stuff. Think it's the low pH, or the nitr ?
If it can kill a big peanut, bacteria should be easy - no 'N' words!
Roger
Actually, the link I gave you before was not about structured water
http://www.digibio.com/cgi-bin/node.pl?lg=usnd=n4_1
but memory of water and his 1,000's of tests showed that he had to vortex
the water for 10 seconds (rapid mixing with pipetting (sp) had no effect) and
then he could dilute 100K:1 without a therapeutic loss. I want to try that
with
our Cs, when the slime is found. May have to buy a microscope to do that!
Quoting him again:
we demonstrated that what supports the activity at high
dilutions is not a molecule. (4) Whatever its nature, it is capable of
'reproducing'
subtle molecular variations, such as the rearrangement of the variable
region of
an IgG (anti-E versus anti-gamma) molecule.
Water could act as a 'template' for the molecule, for example by an infinite
hydrogen-bonded network, or electric and magnetic fields.
Heating, freeze-thawing or ultrasonication suppressed the
activity of highly diluted solutions, but not the activity of several active
compounds at high concentrations. A striking feature was that molecules
reacted to heat according to their distinctive heat sensitivity, whereas
all highly
diluted solutions ceased to be active between 70 and 8O°C.
(Reread that last sentence a few times! The structuring is erasable!)
Thanks for getting the sample off to me - I will not be a smart alec with
the tests!
f...@health2us.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
In a message dated 6/21/00 0:26:27 AM EST, f...@health2us.com writes: Fred: What did Harry Truman say about heat in the kitchen...? You are as sympathetic as my ex - do you ever have any compasion, at all? Fred: We're supposed to be having a logical exchange of ideas which means you should devoted the time required to provide a considered opinion. Anyone who is putting in the kind of hours you are doing disserves my and everyone elses compassion. Perhaps you should step back and ask yourself is this (situation) what I want out of life right now, or am I working myself into a basket case for some improvement in the future? Fred: I was wondering of the people who produce LVDC CS, what percentage of the time do they see a degradation (deeper color, black silver powder dropping out, etc.) of their product over time? Perhaps, Fred, you'd like to carry the ball on this one by repeating this question every time you post something. Respectfully, Roger Thanks for the Respectfully, but I am annoying enough already to some, to want to keep repeating myself! I can give you a general answer from both the questions posted and my experience! The simpler setups with no circulation and normal electrode spacing will have the problem, as a dense ion cloud forms and promotes nucleation/crystallization and there are generally conductive stringers that form to the bottom and or negative electrode. It is more often referred to as slimy stings and never as a powder, unless disturbed (shaken) violently. The fall out may be immediate and prolonged, as the many nucleation sites allow continued degradation. Very operator and process dependent (and phase of the moon). Fred: I think you explained very well my main complaint with this very popular and related LVDC CS methods. Yes, and it would also apply to the weird science HVAC process, which sadly none of the inventors or re-discoverers can explain - just claiming it is better! Fred: Well, as I see it I, you (you've taken the role of debunker which is fine because we need a cummugion to make us think up answers to your questions) and some others are working hard attempting to uncover HVAC CS secrets. The fact that it can work so effectively a ~1 PPM without knowing exactly why should not deter us. After all, we can't explain a lot of phenomena, but we take advantage of many of them non the less. Those that use batteries often report crystal clear product, when the batteries are dead! (Really, I heard it reported a few times - one kind soul even offered to provide a time to replace battery email service.) The some what popular reversing polarity process prevents the stringers and tends to blow the reduced ions off the negative electrode and they will in time settle as a dark powder. Looks a lot better tho' and could be a better product if done right. Fred: Yes, we hear that key phrase again, if done right. Seems to fit everything in life - they all have a right and wrong way - only the individual can make that choice. I chose LVDC and you HVAC! Fred: I think you're missing the point. If it is easy to make bad LVDC CS then that's a practical drawback of the LVDC method. I expect it is closer to a HV setup - more atoms then ions - but can not count them! The better approach of very light circulation prevents crystal growth and or stringers but there are often a few curls of reduced ion growth that will fall from the negative and settle immediately to the bottom. We just decant, to avoid it. Fred: Ah, but can you be sure you don't have large clusters remaining, ready to flocculate into larger units (and drop out) tomorrow, in two weeks, two months ...? I got LVDC Cs! Would 18 month old product with no settlement or reduction in TDS satisfy you! Fred: Is everyone as fortunate as you? Those that like power and use excessive circulation will produce results the same as polarity reversals, ripping reduced ions free. The problems are much worse (and more often posted) with small area electrodes (wire) vs. wide strips or bars. A critical element, ignored by most, is the need to keep the current density low - stringers of course totally defeat that goal and crystal growth accelerates with higher current density. Fred: Practically speaking, how many non-engineers or non-scientifically bent LVDC CS makers will appreciate this excellent point? How many reading your comments really know what you are talking about? How many are swallowing a poor product right now that may not only have inferior bioavailability, but could constitute some longer term health risk? Do your own annoying surveys, it is too hot in my kitchen! Fred: Touchy, touchy. I do believe only the substance abusers (Cs by the quart or wacky unknown 500PPM stuff) risk their health from inferior product but I have stronger concerns about the still
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
Fred wrote: Yes, and it would also apply to the weird science HVAC process, which sadly none of the inventors or re-discoverers can explain - just claiming it is better! What is it that cannot be explained? I am not aware of any great mystery about it. The primary advantage I see off hand is the complete lack of sludge, 100% of the silver goes into the colloid. And yes that can be explained, I have already done so on this list previously. Marshall
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
Somebody Said... The primary advantage I see off hand is the complete lack of sludge, 100% of the silver goes into the colloid. My Opinion: There is not a lack of sludge as the sludge is expelled into the water in such a minute size that it cannot be seen. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. And yes, all of the silver goes into the colloid, positive charged and otherwise. Are these a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know. Does it work, is it effective? Obviously so. Is it a better product, more effective than LVDC? Maybe if we all agreed that everybodys internal system is different and unique, and maybe, just perhaps, LVDC works better on some peoples systems, and HVAC works better on some peoples systems (as is the case with many healing things), then maybe we can get on with bigger and better things. Yours in health, James Allison - Allisons Apothecary - Your On-Line Apothecary Visit Us Soon - http://allisonsapothecary.com Home of the $39.95 Colloidal Silver Generator And Wonderful Prices On Quality Products Like MSM, Ionic Mineral Waters and Apricot Kernels -
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
James Allison wrote: Somebody Said... The primary advantage I see off hand is the complete lack of sludge, 100% of the silver goes into the colloid. My Opinion: There is not a lack of sludge as the sludge is expelled into the water in such a minute size that it cannot be seen. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. And yes, all of the silver goes into the colloid, positive charged and otherwise. What is your definition of sludge. 100% of the silver goes into the colloid. I have never seen sludge. I would expect that if there was any sludge then it would settle out when left standing for several days. This does not happen. Also I see no way sludge could be made using HVAC. Unlike the DC process, there is no population of monotomic O molecules at the electrode to react with the silver, and even if it did, then the hydrogen produced on the other half cycle would strip it off a few milliseconds later leaving a silver atom. Any atoms of silver which accumulate on the electrode while it is negative which might cause silver sludge in a DC process is immediately sent back into the water as a colloid on the next half cycleas well. Why do you think that sludge is formed? Marshall
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
You said: Any atoms of silver which accumulate on the electrode while it is negative which might cause silver sludge in a DC process is immediately sent back into the water as a colloid on the next half cycleas well. Why do you think that sludge is formed? And I say: Hey, I prefaced that whole thing by stating that it was an opinion. But I've said it before, and I'll say it again... - begin rant - In an AC powered operation as some others are promoting, where the polarity is constantly switched, other undesirable things may happen; it is known that in all electro-colloidal silver generating processes, some charge stripping of silver ions does occur as they come in contact with the cathode, resulting in their gaining electrons, and the resulting reduction to atomic silver particles (without the charge that is said to produce the pathogen disabling effect.) In a DC system, these reduced metallic particles remain as a grayish 'sludge' buildup on the surface of the cathode, and eventually are very visible at higher current levels. In a system where the polarity is switched constantly, this sludge is propelled and dispersed back into the water continuously, as evidenced by the 'clean electrodes' spoken of. Mechanical effects of redispersal of plated out silver sludge from the cathode will occur at higher concentrations and especially at higher currents, especially if AC is used, resulting in much coarser, uncharged metallic silver particles than may be desired floating about in your product. Filtering with good lab quality filter media may be able to remove some of this non-ionic silver; settling of most of the really larger particle clumps might also occur within 72 hours, I'd estimate, if the particles are not too fine. I guess the question is this; are the positively charged colloidal silver ions, (as produced in a DC process), what you want in your product, or do you want non-charged 'non-ionic' metallic silver particles, as produced in the AC processes? From what I have researched and what I understand at this time, I'd stay with Dr. Becker's recommendations myself, and try to produce the positively charged Colloidal Silver Ions with a DC process. [To summarize this for the technically inclined] please consider carefully that, just as positively charged silver ions are generated into the system at the anode, they are attracted to the negatively charged cathode. Many stay in the colloidal suspension, but as the concentration of silver ions build up, and the current flow through the system increases, more and more silver ions are drawn to, and come in contact with the cathode. When they do this, they are stripped of their positive charge, and 'plate out' on the surface of the cathode as a visible 'sludge', but do not bond to the surface structure - they accumulate as larger groups of loosely bonded, uncharged silver particles. If what I understand Dr. Becker and others to be saying is true, these uncharged silver particles, what I refer to as the 'silver sludge' formed at the cathode, should be removed if possible from your finished product. Using a DC power source, with no polarity reversal, is my strong recommendation (and that of many others) for predictably generating positively charged colloidal silver particles (biologically active silver ions) in your product, while controlling silver 'sludge' dispersal problems. [Note that this DC supply can be produced either from an AC source, rectified, regulated, and filtered, or from a battery supply.] Electroplaters have long known that a well rectified DC power source was required to generate and manipulate metallic ions in their processes to achieve the desired results. -- end rant -- The above rant was taken from... http://web.idirect.com/~showcase/althealth/makecs.htm Yours in health, James Allison - Allisons Apothecary - Your On-Line Apothecary Visit Us Soon - http://allisonsapothecary.com Home of the $39.95 Colloidal Silver Generator And Wonderful Prices On Quality Products Like MSM, Ionic Mineral Waters and Apricot Kernels - - Original Message - From: Marshall Dudley To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 10:22 AM Subject: Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS James Allison wrote: Somebody Said... The primary advantage I see off hand is the complete lack of sludge, 100% of the silver goes into the colloid. My Opinion: There is not a lack of sludge as the sludge is expelled into the water in such a minute size that it cannot be seen. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. And yes, all of the silver goes into the colloid, positive charged and otherwise. What is your definition of sludge. 100% of the silver goes into the colloid. I have never seen sludge. I would expect that if there was any
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
In a message dated 6/21/00 12:16:10 PM EST, apothec...@home.com writes: Somebody Said... The primary advantage I see off hand is the complete lack of sludge, 100% of the silver goes into the colloid. My Opinion: There is not a lack of sludge as the sludge is expelled into the water in such a minute size that it cannot be seen. James: How do you know that a sludge is formed in the first place? Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. And yes, all of the silver goes into the colloid, positive charged and otherwise. Are these a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know. Does it work, is it effective? Obviously so. Is it a better product, more effective than LVDC? Maybe if we all agreed that everybodys internal system is different and unique, and maybe, just perhaps, LVDC works better on some peoples systems, and HVAC works better on some peoples systems (as is the case with many healing things), then maybe we can get on with bigger and better things. James: There's a reasonable chance that the HVAC may also produce (along with CS) structured water which could account for its efficacy at ~1 PPM or perhaps lower. I think that's pretty exciting. So tell me what's bigger and better than that? Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
In a message dated 6/21/00 2:10:57 PM EST, apothec...@home.com writes: In an AC powered operation as some others are promoting, where the polarity is constantly switched, other undesirable things may happen; it is known that in all electro-colloidal silver generating processes, some charge stripping of silver ions does occur as they come in contact with the cathode, resulting in their gaining electrons, and the resulting reduction to atomic silver particles (without the charge that is said to produce the pathogen disabling effect.) In a DC system, these reduced metallic particles remain as a grayish 'sludge' buildup on the surface of the cathode, and eventually are very visible at higher current levels. In a system where the polarity is switched constantly, this sludge is propelled and dispersed back into the water continuously, as evidenced by the 'clean electrodes' spoken of. Mechanical effects of redispersal of plated out silver sludge from the cathode will occur at higher concentrations and especially at higher currents, especially if AC is used, resulting in much coarser, uncharged metallic silver particles than may be desired floating about in your product. Filtering with good lab quality filter media may be able to remove some of this non-ionic silver; settling of most of the really larger particle clumps might also occur within 72 hours, I'd estimate, if the particles are not too fine. I guess the question is this; are the positively charged colloidal silver ions, (as produced in a DC process), what you want in your product, or do you want non-charged 'non-ionic' metallic silver particles, as produced in the AC processes? From what I have researched and what I understand at this time, I'd stay with Dr. Becker's recommendations myself, and try to produce the positively charged Colloidal Silver Ions with a DC process. James: The statement above could be taken as a working hypothesis. Your next step is to produce data which support this argument. Since HVAC CS is stable over time (this is, there's no sludge to drop out so where's the sludge), the weight of the evidence, so far, does NOT support this hypothesis. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
Sorry Marshall, I left out the arc part, which is the wierder part of the process - why use a high temperature arc in air? (To vaporize the silver and spalt it into the water but also breakdown the air) Of course I can also add: why us 10,000 volts for a 2 volt DC process? and.. why not use polarity reversing LVDC?, if you just want to get all of the released silver into solution? Some will reply that the feature is that it produces in volume, but the 100 volt pickle jar array recently posted also will! f...@health2us.com At 01:50 PM 6/21/2000, you wrote: Fred wrote: Yes, and it would also apply to the weird science HVAC process, which sadly none of the inventors or re-discoverers can explain - just claiming it is better! What is it that cannot be explained? I am not aware of any great mystery about it. The primary advantage I see off hand is the complete lack of sludge, 100% of the silver goes into the colloid. And yes that can be explained, I have already done so on this list previously. Marshall
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
James Allison wrote: You said: Any atoms of silver which accumulate on the electrode while it is negative which might cause silver sludge in a DC process is immediately sent back into the water as a colloid on the next half cycleas well. Why do you think that sludge is formed? And I say: Hey, I prefaced that whole thing by stating that it was an opinion. But I've said it before, and I'll say it again... - begin rant - In an AC powered operation as some others are promoting, where the polarity is constantly switched, other undesirable things may happen; it is known that in all electro-colloidal silver generating processes, some charge stripping of silver ions does occur as they come in contact with the cathode, resulting in their gaining electrons, and the resulting reduction to atomic silver particles (without the charge that is said to produce the pathogen disabling effect.) In a DC system, these reduced metallic particles remain as a grayish 'sludge' buildup on the surface of the cathode, and eventually are very visible at higher current levels. In a system where the polarity is switched constantly, this sludge is propelled and dispersed back into the water continuously, as evidenced by the 'clean electrodes' spoken of. When the positively charged silver particles contact the cathode they gain electrons and become plain old silver again. That is what the electrode is made of in the first place. Why would the silver get propelled off? It has no charge, thus has no force from the electric potential to propel it off as large particles. Instead, it simple becomes part of the silver of the cathode, to be emitted as a colloid when it becomes the anode, which involves stripping the electrons off again. No sludge is formed. Mechanical effects of redispersal of plated out silver sludge from the cathode will occur at higher concentrations and especially at higher currents, especially if AC is used, resulting in much coarser, uncharged metallic silver particles than may be desired floating about in your product. I still see no way that sludge would be formed. Within 1 cycle of a silver particle getting deposited onto the cathode and gaining an electron, it will become the anode, and the atom will lose an electron or more, become positive, and go out into the water as a Colloidal suspension. This is no different than any other atom of silver on the electrode. Sludge is formed by particles accumulating on the cathode and coalescing, or silver being oxidized on the cathode until they become so big they fall off from the gravity. Reversal takes place so quickly particle size can never build up sufficient for the particle to fall off from gravity. They simply go back out atom by atom, to become colloid, just like any of the atoms on the silver anode do. Filtering with good lab quality filter media may be able to remove some of this non-ionic silver; settling of most of the really larger particle clumps might also occur within 72 hours, I'd estimate, if the particles are not too fine. I get no settling even after a week. I have never seen any sludge in my HVAC setup, and theoretically I can see no way it can occur. I guess the question is this; are the positively charged colloidal silver ions, (as produced in a DC process), what you want in your product, or do you want non-charged 'non-ionic' metallic silver particles, as produced in the AC processes? Huh? If they are non-charged and non-ionic they would fall out of suspension rapidly. They do not. Both DC and AC methods produce identical CS off the anode. The difference is on the cathode. In the DC method the silver collects, forms large particles, or react with O, and eventually falls off as sludge, in the AC process, they go back out as charged atoms of silver again, just like any of the electrode would. I don't know where you are getting this non-charged idea from, but it is wrong. From what I have researched and what I understand at this time, I'd stay with Dr. Becker's recommendations myself, and try to produce the positively charged Colloidal Silver Ions with a DC process. Electricity is electricity. When the ions leave the electrode they are charged. There is no way the ion knows that the anode will become a cathode later and thus decides to not be charged. [To summarize this for the technically inclined] please consider carefully that, just as positively charged silver ions are generated into the system at the anode, they are attracted to the negatively charged cathode. Many stay in the colloidal suspension, but as the concentration of silver ions build up, and the current flow through the system increases, more and more silver ions are drawn to, and come in contact with the cathode. When they do this, they are stripped of their positive charge, and 'plate out' on the surface of the cathode as a visible 'sludge',
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
James: There's a reasonable chance that the HVAC may also produce (along with CS) structured water which could account for its efficacy at ~1 PPM or perhaps lower. I think that's pretty exciting. So tell me what's bigger and better than that? Roger I'm still out to lunch on the structured water, as I only have a very basic understanding of it. From what I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), water in it's natural form, e.g. lakes, streams, rivers, etc., is structured water. When we put pressure on it and run it through our plumbing, plus possibly when we add chlorine to it, we re-structure it into an unnatural formation (atom wise that is). If this is true, then there is a very simple way to restructure it naturally, and that is to take a pint, a gallon, a drum or whatever amount your heart desires, make sure it is in a clear container that has a wide mouth with no cover and set it in the sun for at least half an hour, and then either leave it in the sun or bring it out of the sun for another 6 hours. From what I understand, it's as simple as that. I don't have the data that was used, because my ex-partner has it all, and he's the one that explained it to me. Supposedly they've done extensive testing on it. What I do know is that for my own personal CS, I use distilled water that I have done the above process to, and I think it turns out a better brew. I can't back it with the hard data, it's just a gut instinct, and a warm fuzzy feeling I get when I drink it :) Yours in health, James Allison - Allisons Apothecary - Your On-Line Apothecary Visit Us Soon - http://allisonsapothecary.com Home of the $39.95 Colloidal Silver Generator And Wonderful Prices On Quality Products Like MSM, Ionic Mineral Waters and Apricot Kernels - -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CSEND OF - CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS (Thank God!)
Roger said: Fred: We're supposed to be having a logical exchange of ideas which means you should devoted the time required to provide a considered opinion. Anyone who is putting in the kind of hours you are doing disserves my and everyone elses compassion. Perhaps you should step back and ask yourself is this (situation) what I want out of life right now, or am I working myself into a basket case for some improvement in the future? (I am addicted to programming in the Perl language - usually 'til 3 A.M.!) and: Fred: I'll do you one better...Promise me that you'll test my product for safety and efficacy (not counting itsi, bitsi charged, and uncharged particles which MAY or MAY NOT correlate to ANYTHING) and I'll send you a sample. Roger Guess it is time to get back to work! I hear what are they talking about chatter and we are taking a lot of bandwidth with our jousting match - I would love to get a sample and test however I can! I am hopeful of enrolling a friend in the local water works to run some tests for me! They have become so well equipped and staffed that they do contract work for outsiders and our local water report shows tests results for over 50 items, mostly in the PPB range. I can not test efficiency but they may have some slimy stuff I can culture! PII, 3516 Delilah Drive, Cape Coral, FL. 33993 I have only one other sample now as the last one submitted leaked and dissolved the Bio-degradeable peanut packing and then the bottles broke. Hopefully I will wind up with a few I can present for tests. Like most government workers, they are subject to bribes - FREE Cs for life? Cordially, Fred
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
James Allison wrote: James: There's a reasonable chance that the HVAC may also produce (along with CS) structured water which could account for its efficacy at ~1 PPM or perhaps lower. I think that's pretty exciting. So tell me what's bigger and better than that? Roger I'm still out to lunch on the structured water, as I only have a very basic understanding of it. From what I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), water in it's natural form, e.g. lakes, streams, rivers, etc., is structured water. When we put pressure on it and run it through our plumbing, plus possibly when we add chlorine to it, we re-structure it into an unnatural formation (atom wise that is). If this is true, then there is a very simple way to restructure it naturally, and that is to take a pint, a gallon, a drum or whatever amount your heart desires, make sure it is in a clear container that has a wide mouth with no cover and set it in the sun for at least half an hour, and then either leave it in the sun or bring it out of the sun for another 6 hours. From what I understand, it's as simple as that. I don't have the data that was used, because my ex-partner has it all, and he's the one that explained it to me. Supposedly they've done extensive testing on it. What I do know is that for my own personal CS, I use distilled water that I have done the above process to, and I think it turns out a better brew. I can't back it with the hard data, it's just a gut instinct, and a warm fuzzy feeling I get when I drink it :) It is my understanding that water has many different possible structures. Supposedly that is one theory of how homeopathics work, the water is structured by what was added before dilution. If steam distill water, and do not expose it to anything that will structure it, including magnetic fields, then it is considered unstructured. Magnetics, as well as a lot of other things can structure water, including adding things and shaking it, ie. homeopathics. Using a spectrophotometer I have determined that totally unexpected things can structure water. For instance, I have put water over a magnet, various crystals, and near various rings of metal that suppose to have healing powers, and have had people with healing energy hold their hands over water. In all cases, a change was easily seen by the instrument. And different items gave a different resonse, but I have no idea how to interpret it. Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
At 01:50 PM 6/21/2000, you wrote: James Allison wrote: Somebody Said... The primary advantage I see off hand is the complete lack of sludge, 100% of the silver goes into the colloid. My Opinion: There is not a lack of sludge as the sludge is expelled into the water in such a minute size that it cannot be seen. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. And yes, all of the silver goes into the colloid, positive charged and otherwise. What is your definition of sludge. 100% of the silver goes into the colloid. I have never seen sludge. I would expect that if there was any sludge then it would settle out when left standing for several days. This does not happen. Also I see no way sludge could be made using HVAC. Unlike the DC process, there is no population of monotomic O molecules at the electrode to react with the silver, and even if it did, then the hydrogen produced on the other half cycle would strip it off a few milliseconds later leaving a silver atom. Any atoms of silver which accumulate on the electrode while it is negative which might cause silver sludge in a DC process is immediately sent back into the water as a colloid on the next half cycleas well. Why do you think that sludge is formed? Marshall The generally accepted word on this list for the dark deposits on the negative electrode with the non-reversed LVDC process has been sludge! They are atoms of silver (reduced ions) and will grow into loosely bound snow-flake like crystals. I believe James was referring to those atoms, (non-charged) which surely are formed and thrown back into the solution . The fact they do not settle (anyone have HVAC product a 6 months to year old to check?) would indicate they are not joined to others and thus of an atomic size which the water may keep in suspension. My interest is if they are as effective internally, as a positively charged ion of silver, in the chemical sense! f...@health2us.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
In a message dated 6/21/00 3:45:09 PM EST, apothec...@home.com writes: Roger I'm still out to lunch on the structured water, James: I supprised you said that about yourself. Are you sure you weren't referring to me? as I only have a very basic understanding of it. From what I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), water in it's natural form, e.g. lakes, streams, rivers, etc., is structured water. When we put pressure on it and run it through our plumbing, plus possibly when we add chlorine to it, we re-structure it into an unnatural formation (atom wise that is). If this is true, then there is a very simple way to restructure it naturally, and that is to take a pint, a gallon, a drum or whatever amount your heart desires, make sure it is in a clear container that has a wide mouth with no cover and set it in the sun for at least half an hour, and then either leave it in the sun or bring it out of the sun for another 6 hours. From what I understand, it's as simple as that. I don't have the data that was used, because my ex-partner has it all, and he's the one that explained it to me. Supposedly they've done extensive testing on it. James: The first step before we can discuss structured water from a scientific standpoint is to define what it is. Since I haven't a clue as to how to define it, I'm with you on this one; we're probably both out to lunch. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
In a message dated 6/21/00 4:05:41 PM EST, mdud...@execonn.com writes: Magnetics, as well as a lot of other things can structure water, including adding things and shaking it, ie. homeopathics. Using a spectrophotometer I have determined that totally unexpected things can structure water. For instance, I have put water over a magnet, various crystals, and near various rings of metal that suppose to have healing powers, and have had people with healing energy hold their hands over water. In all cases, a change was easily seen by the instrument. And different items gave a different resonse, but I have no idea how to interpret it. Marshall: Tell us more about your spectrophotometric measurements of structured water. If you prefer to do it off-line that's fine. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
Marshall: Tell us more about your spectrophotometric measurements of structured water. If you prefer to do it off-line that's fine. Roger I want in on this too please ;) Yours in health, James Allison -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
I think, perhaps, the fuzzy feeling is the sludge? Chuck 667- The Wrong Number of the Beast ! On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:43:00 -0700, James Allison apothec...@home.com wrote: What I do know is that for my own personal CS, I use distilled water that I have done the above process to, and I think it turns out a better brew. I can't back it with the hard data, it's just a gut instinct, and a warm fuzzy feeling I get when I drink it :) Yours in health, James Allison -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
In a message dated 6/21/00 3:45:09 PM EST, apothec...@home.com writes: Roger I'm still out to lunch on the structured water, James: I supprised you said that about yourself. Are you sure you weren't referring to me? as I only have a very basic understanding of it. From what I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), water in it's natural form, e.g. lakes, streams, rivers, etc., is structured water. When we put pressure on it and run it through our plumbing, plus possibly when we add chlorine to it, we re-structure it into an unnatural formation (atom wise that is). If this is true, then there is a very simple way to restructure it naturally, and that is to take a pint, a gallon, a drum or whatever amount your heart desires, make sure it is in a clear container that has a wide mouth with no cover and set it in the sun for at least half an hour, and then either leave it in the sun or bring it out of the sun for another 6 hours. From what I understand, it's as simple as that. I don't have the data that was used, because my ex-partner has it all, and he's the one that explained it to me. Supposedly they've done extensive testing on it. James: The first step before we can discuss structured water from a scientific standpoint is to define what it is. Since I haven't a clue as to how to define it, I'm with you on this one; we're probably both out to lunch. Roger (The Japanese research utilizes a magnetic resonance imaging) This beautifully organized water(scientists also call it structured water) is important because it is more mobile thatn other water and more efficient. Hmmm...a defintion. As I have read, even the scientists say it is difficult to explain even the basics of such complex water technology and, second, the results and development---go figure. In Search of TRUTH Always, Pam -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
In a message dated 6/21/00 4:05:41 PM EST, mdud...@execonn.com writes: Magnetics, as well as a lot of other things can structure water, including adding things and shaking it, ie. homeopathics. Using a spectrophotometer I have determined that totally unexpected things can structure water. For instance, I have put water over a magnet, various crystals, and near various rings of metal that suppose to have healing powers, and have had people with healing energy hold their hands over water. In all cases, a change was easily seen by the instrument. And different items gave a different resonse, but I have no idea how to interpret it. Marshall: Tell us more about your spectrophotometric measurements of structured water. If you prefer to do it off-line that's fine. Roger Would like that also to be shared PG -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
In a message dated 6/21/00 5:08:04 PM EST, f...@health2us.com writes: Sorry Marshall, I left out the arc part, which is the wierder part of the process - why use a high temperature arc in air? (To vaporize the silver and spalt it into the water but also breakdown the air) Of course I can also add: why us 10,000 volts for a 2 volt DC process? and.. why not use polarity reversing LVDC?, if you just want to get all of the released silver into solution? Some will reply that the feature is that it produces in volume, but the 100 volt pickle jar array recently posted also will! Fred: Another feature of the sputtered version of the HVAC CS process is that you can make very high CS concentrations which may provide an advantage for treating Lyme disease as well as other tough bugs. Roger f...@health2us.com -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSEND OF - CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS (Thank God!)
In a message dated 6/21/00 7:07:39 PM EST, f...@health2us.com writes:
Roger
Guess it is time to get back to work! I hear what are they talking about
chatter and we are taking a lot of bandwidth with our jousting match -
Fred: Yes, we may be taking some bandwidth, but it's also a tad more
important, IMHO, then exchanging home remedies.
would love to get a sample and test however I can!
Fred: I'll send you a liter of my 1 PPM HVAC CS brew. Knock yourself out!
I am hopeful of enrolling a friend in the local water works to run some tests
for me! They have become so well equipped and staffed that they do contract
work for
outsiders and our local water report shows tests results for over 50 items,
mostly in the PPB range. I can not test efficiency but they may have some
slimy stuff I can culture!
Fred: I'd love to see the results of side by side tests -- Fred's vintage
('93 was a good year, don't you think) LVDC CS vs Roger's HVAC (weird
science) CS. Of course, you'll run the tests at 1 PPM, right?
PII, 3516 Delilah Drive, Cape Coral, FL. 33993
I have only one other sample now as the last one submitted leaked and
dissolved the Bio-degradeable peanut packing ...
Fred: That HVAC CS is wicked stuff. Think it's the low pH, or the nitr ?
Roger
--
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Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
rogalt...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 6/21/00 5:08:04 PM EST, f...@health2us.com writes: Sorry Marshall, I left out the arc part, which is the wierder part of the process - why use a high temperature arc in air? (To vaporize the silver and spalt it into the water but also breakdown the air) I know nothing of the arc process, but what that 100 year old book said, and that did not look particularly good. Of course I can also add: why us 10,000 volts for a 2 volt DC process? and.. why not use polarity reversing LVDC?, if you just want to get all of the released silver into solution? It appears that for optimum results you need for the voltage/frequency = 150 or so. Thus for 60 htz, optimum voltage is about 10K, and for 30 volts the polarity reversing should be about .2 hertz or once every 10 seconds or so (assuming a linear relationship). It has to do with the diffusion rate from the cathode, reversal should occur when the ions near, but have not reached the cathode yet. If course the distance between the electrodes is very important since the closer they are together the quicker the ions can move across the distance. Some will reply that the feature is that it produces in volume, but the 100 volt pickle jar array recently posted also will! Produces in volume (I get 4 gallons an hour), plus no sludge at all, which the pickle jar array may, provided polarity reversal is encorporated, but then it would really be an AC process simply using a lower voltage and frequency. Fred: Another feature of the sputtered version of the HVAC CS process is that you can make very high CS concentrations which may provide an advantage for treating Lyme disease as well as other tough bugs. I cannot comment on the sputtered version, have no experience with it. The few times I have thrown an arc it has broken my barrier tubes. Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
In a message dated 6/21/00 9:18:05 PM EST, mdud...@execonn.com writes: It appears that for optimum results you need for the voltage/frequency = 150 or so. Marshall: How did you arrive at the 150 ratio? Incidentally, I was told by an electrical engineer who represents the manufacturer of my solid state (neon sign) HVAC power supply that its frequency is ~ 12000 Htz at 10,000 volts. Could you explain the discrepancy between that figure and the 60 Htz you assume for 10,000 volt AC? Roger Roger Thus for 60 htz, optimum voltage is about 10K, and for 30 volts the polarity reversing should be about .2 hertz or once every 10 seconds or so (assuming a linear relationship). It has to do with the diffusion rate from the cathode, reversal should occur when the ions near, but have not reached the cathode yet. If course the distance between the electrodes is very important since the closer they are together the quicker the ions can move across the distance. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S
rogalt...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 6/21/00 9:18:05 PM EST, mdud...@execonn.com writes: It appears that for optimum results you need for the voltage/frequency = 150 or so. Marshall: How did you arrive at the 150 ratio? That seems to be optimum with 60 hertz, 10K volts. Low voltage requires much lower alternation. I am assuming a linear relationship, but it may not be. Incidentally, I was told by an electrical engineer who represents the manufacturer of my solid state (neon sign) HVAC power supply that its frequency is ~ 12000 Htz at 10,000 volts. Could you explain the discrepancy between that figure and the 60 Htz you assume for 10,000 volt AC? Sounds like you have one of the high frequency units that uses a small coil with a solid state switcher. I use a plain old transformer that runs at line frequency. Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
At 09:00 PM 6/19/2000, you wrote: Colloidal silver produced by the HVAC process is pure, clean and clear...Particle size is between .002 to .007-9 micron, yielding 100% 'Bio-Availability' (Most of us are concerned about what contaminates in HVAC Cs cause the very low pH , so pure or clean is still questionable!) Is his HVAC CS low ph? Mine is essentially the same as the distilled water was that I started with, about 7. Marshall As stated, he provides no tech data other then size and shelf life and it is better then other stuff. No idea if arc, shielded, submerged, etc. f...@health2us.com
CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
At 09:00 PM 6/19/2000, you wrote: Alvin said: Did anyone visit Bruce Marx's web site at http://colloidal.hypermart.net another great claim of superior C/S and why we shouldn't use the LVDC process...Is it BS or not? -- Well, I had not visited his site for years so I decided to review it for you Alvin - below are some questionable statements of his: (This is not a personal attack, text is taken in context from his widely published comparison of the LV and HVAC processes. My comments are in blue!) Bruce Marx is an N.D., a licensed Chief Engineer (CSPRO) He is the originator of the HVAC process (Many will argue that, unless Bruce is very, very old! Roger said HE re invented it 100 years too late!) Fred: Here goes picky me again, but this time I'll try to be more civil. First, I think David Ripley was marketing an HVAC CS machine before Bruce. Second, I never claimed I invented anything. I believe, if you'll check the record, I said I rediscovered the sputtered form of the HVAC CS process 100 years too late. Small detail perhaps, but you'll find the devil hidden in many mistaken/omitted details. Look again Roger, I said above: Roger said HE re invented it 100 years too late You have to give me some latitude in words Roger, I have digital data overload problems from working two computers 10 hours a day 7 days a week with my many web businesses and ecommerce site designs (doing 50 now) and can barely remember what I said a few days ago, let alone what you said! Only my Eudora spell checker makes any of it readable. Fred: I was wondering of the people who produce LVDC CS, what percentage of the time do they see a degradation (deeper color, black silver powder dropping out, etc.) of their product over time? Perhaps, Fred, you'd like to carry the ball on this one by repeating this question every time you post something. Respectfully, Roger Thanks for the Respectfully, but I am annoying enough already to some, to want to keep repeating myself! I can give you a general answer from both the questions posted and my experience! The simpler setups with no circulation and normal electrode spacing will have the problem, as a dense ion cloud forms and promotes nucleation/crystallization and there are generally conductive stringers that form to the bottom and or negative electrode. It is more often referred to as slimy stings and never as a powder, unless disturbed (shaken) violently. The fall out may be immediate and prolonged, as the many nucleation sites allow continued degradation. Very operator and process dependent (and phase of the moon). Those that use batteries often report crystal clear product, when the batteries are dead! (Really, I heard it reported a few times - one kind soul even offered to provide a time to replace battery email service.) The some what popular reversing polarity process prevents the stringers and tends to blow the reduced ions off the negative electrode and they will in time settle as a dark powder. Looks a lot better tho' and could be a better product if done right. I expect it is closer to a HV setup - more atoms then ions - but can not count them! The better approach of very light circulation prevents crystal growth and or stringers but there are often a few curls of reduced ion growth that will fall from the negative and settle immediately to the bottom. We just decant, to avoid it. Those that like power and use excessive circulation will produce results the same as polarity reversals, ripping reduced ions free. The problems are much worse (and more often posted) with small area electrodes (wire) vs. wide strips or bars. A critical element, ignored by most, is the need to keep the current density low - stringers of course totally defeat that goal and crystal growth accelerates with higher current density. That is another of the defects I see in the HV process - a high probability of kicking few ions off, mostly discrete particles! f...@health2us.com -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
In a message dated 6/20/00 1:39:19 AM EST, f...@health2us.com writes: As stated, he provides no tech data other then size and shelf life and it is better then other stuff. No idea if arc, shielded, submerged, etc. f...@health2us.com Fred: I believe it's basically submerged -- water-jumps-up-to-touch-the-electrode design. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
In a message dated 6/20/00 1:39:36 AM EST, f...@health2us.com writes: Fred: Here goes picky me again, but this time I'll try to be more civil. First, I think David Ripley was marketing an HVAC CS machine before Bruce. Second, I never claimed I invented anything. I believe, if you'll check the record, I said I rediscovered the sputtered form of the HVAC CS process 100 years too late. Small detail perhaps, but you'll find the devil hidden in many mistaken/omitted details. Look again Roger, I said above: Roger said HE re invented it 100 years Fred: I think your reply speaks for itself. Simply re-read your last sentence and my original statement. You have to give me some latitude in words Roger, I have digital data overload problems from working two computers 10 hours a day 7 days a week with my many web businesses and ecommerce site designs (doing 50 now) and can barely remember what I said a few days ago, let alone what you said! Only my Eudora spell checker makes any of it readable. Fred: What did Harry Truman say about heat in the kitchen...? Fred: I was wondering of the people who produce LVDC CS, what percentage of the time do they see a degradation (deeper color, black silver powder dropping out, etc.) of their product over time? Perhaps, Fred, you'd like to carry the ball on this one by repeating this question every time you post something. Respectfully, Roger Thanks for the Respectfully, but I am annoying enough already to some, to want to keep repeating myself! I can give you a general answer from both the questions posted and my experience! The simpler setups with no circulation and normal electrode spacing will have the problem, as a dense ion cloud forms and promotes nucleation/crystallization and there are generally conductive stringers that form to the bottom and or negative electrode. It is more often referred to as slimy stings and never as a powder, unless disturbed (shaken) violently. The fall out may be immediate and prolonged, as the many nucleation sites allow continued degradation. Very operator and process dependent (and phase of the moon). Fred: I think you explained very well my main complaint with this very popular and related LVDC CS methods. Those that use batteries often report crystal clear product, when the batteries are dead! (Really, I heard it reported a few times - one kind soul even offered to provide a time to replace battery email service.) The some what popular reversing polarity process prevents the stringers and tends to blow the reduced ions off the negative electrode and they will in time settle as a dark powder. Looks a lot better tho' and could be a better product if done right. Fred: Yes, we hear that key phrase again, if done right. I expect it is closer to a HV setup - more atoms then ions - but can not count them! The better approach of very light circulation prevents crystal growth and or stringers but there are often a few curls of reduced ion growth that will fall from the negative and settle immediately to the bottom. We just decant, to avoid it. Fred: Ah, but can you be sure you don't have large clusters remaining, ready to flocculate into larger units (and drop out) tomorrow, in two weeks, two months ...? Those that like power and use excessive circulation will produce results the same as polarity reversals, ripping reduced ions free. The problems are much worse (and more often posted) with small area electrodes (wire) vs. wide strips or bars. A critical element, ignored by most, is the need to keep the current density low - stringers of course totally defeat that goal and crystal growth accelerates with higher current density. Fred: Practically speaking, how many non-engineers or non-scientifically bent LVDC CS makers will appreciate this excellent point? How many reading your comments really know what you are talking about? How many are swallowing a poor product right now that may not only have inferior bioavailability, but could constitute some longer term health risk? That is another of the defects I see in the HV process - a high probability of kicking few ions off, mostly discrete particles! Fred: Then how do you explain the potency of my HVAC CS brew at ~ 1 PPM ? (and don't change the subject about health risk when you have nothing but speculation to fall back on.) Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
Fred wrote: At 09:00 PM 6/19/2000, you wrote: Colloidal silver produced by the HVAC process is pure, clean and clear...Particle size is between .002 to .007-9 micron, yielding 100% 'Bio-Availability' (Most of us are concerned about what contaminates in HVAC Cs cause the very low pH , so pure or clean is still questionable!) Is his HVAC CS low ph? Mine is essentially the same as the distilled water was that I started with, about 7. Marshall As stated, he provides no tech data other then size and shelf life and it is better then other stuff. No idea if arc, shielded, submerged, etc. He told me on the phone that the electrodes are place just above the water, and the HV sucks the water up to the electrodes. Marshall f...@health2us.com
RE: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
Submerged, with some arcing permitted at the end of a run. James Osbourne Holmes a...@trail.com FTNWO -Original Message- From: Fred [SMTP:f...@health2us.com] Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 11:48 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject:CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS File: ATT0.htm At 09:00 PM 6/19/2000, you wrote: Colloidal silver produced by the HVAC process is pure, clean and clear...Particle size is between .002 to .007-9 micron, yielding 100% 'Bio-Availability' (Most of us are concerned about what contaminates in HVAC Cs cause the very low pH , so pure or clean is still questionable!) Is his HVAC CS low ph? Mine is essentially the same as the distilled water was that I started with, about 7. Marshall As stated, he provides no tech data other then size and shelf life and it is better then other stuff. No idea if arc, shielded, submerged, etc. f...@health2us.com -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
Hi Fred, If you want to question Bruce about anything specific, why don't you write to him yourself? Although he is quite busy, he will respond to mail. James Osbourne Holmes a...@trail.com FTNWO -Original Message- From: Fred [SMTP:f...@health2us.com] Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2000 10:50 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject:CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS File: ATT5.htm Alvin said: Did anyone visit Bruce Marx's web site at http://colloidal.hypermart.net another great claim of superior C/S and why we shouldn't use the LVDC process...Is it BS or not? -- Well, I had not visited his site for years so I decided to review it for you Alvin - below are some questionable statements of his: (This is not a personal attack, text is taken in context from his widely published comparison of the LV and HVAC processes. My comments are in blue!) Bruce Marx is an N.D., a licensed Chief Engineer (CSPRO) He is the originator of the HVAC process (Many will argue that, unless Bruce is very, very old! Roger said HE re invented it 100 years too late!) There is constant reference to the 'yellow' or 'golden' color. As mentioned in the description of the DC process, this color is a result of the silver 'tarnishing'. (The accepted opinion is the particle size determines the color - below he oddly says the tarnishing makes it heavy and causes very short life due to settlement?) Colloidal silver produced by the HVAC process is pure, clean and clear...Particle size is between .002 to .007-9 micron, yielding 100% 'Bio-Availability' (Most of us are concerned about what contaminates in HVAC Cs cause the very low pH , so pure or clean is still questionable!) The flow of the current from the positive (anode) to the negative (cathode) causes minute particles of silver to release. Many particles will immediately oxidize and adhere to the negative electrode as a black residue (silver oxides), (The general opinion is they are atoms (reduced ions) and form weak, irregular crystal growths and thus the dark color.) Low voltage DC colloidal silver has a limited 'shelf life'. Due to the continuing oxidation of the suspended particles, the solution will turn to a yellow or golden color. During production, the particles are given a positive electrical charge. This keeps them in suspension by the principle of 'Brownian Motion'. The charge dissipates slowly. The increased weight caused by the build-up of oxidation, causes the particles to collide and, finally, with their charges weakening, settle to the bottom of the container. His recently updated main site says LVDC Cs has a shelf life of only 2 days to 2 weeks! (Most of this sounds really hoaky and many of us have stable samples of LVDC Cs well over a year old, to prove it!) Generally, the higher the operating voltage of the process, the more 'consistently small' the particles produced. Therefore, as the voltage goes up, so does the percent of 'Bio-Availability'. At 180 volts DC, the 'Bio-Availability' is over 80%, and at 10,000 volts AC, the 'Bio-Availability' is 100%. (he claims only 30% Bio with 27 VDC - in my book, ions or atoms of silver come in only one size and only a poor process will allow crystal growth or larger particles. His photo claiming particles of 0.001 to 0.008 um is of a 6-10um cluster or particle, so which is he flawing?) Also, his general approach (marketing) is a scare tactic - the FDA will shut us all down - you need to be prepared in your shelter with 600 Watt backup generators to run his unit - etc. rather then the classic promotion of - has many benefits for you! As some would say, Where is the proof?, there are no links or references cited to support any of his views. In fairness, I must say his technical data (on both sites I viewed) is a news article he had published on 2/30/96, but on the other hand, the web pages were updated recently so I must assume these weird science views are still his! I would rate him pretty low Alvin! (Slap me if you disagree!) P.S. If you find any hoaky/outdated stuff on my site, let me know and I will change/update it! We all learn as we grow, but Bruce has been painted as the originator and thus the expert! A few on the list will defend him at any cost - such is dedication! He certainly appears to make more money then us all, so maybe like Bill Gates he can say anything we wants to! f...@health2us.com -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
And the saga continues... At 11:47 AM 6/20/2000, you wrote: You have to give me some latitude in words Roger, I have digital data overload problems from working two computers 10 hours a day 7 days a week with my many web businesses and ecommerce site designs (doing 50 now) and can barely remember what I said a few days ago, let alone what you said! Only my Eudora spell checker makes any of it readable. Fred: What did Harry Truman say about heat in the kitchen...? You are as sympathetic as my ex - do you ever have any compasion, at all? Fred: I was wondering of the people who produce LVDC CS, what percentage of the time do they see a degradation (deeper color, black silver powder dropping out, etc.) of their product over time? Perhaps, Fred, you'd like to carry the ball on this one by repeating this question every time you post something. Respectfully, Roger Thanks for the Respectfully, but I am annoying enough already to some, to want to keep repeating myself! I can give you a general answer from both the questions posted and my experience! The simpler setups with no circulation and normal electrode spacing will have the problem, as a dense ion cloud forms and promotes nucleation/crystallization and there are generally conductive stringers that form to the bottom and or negative electrode. It is more often referred to as slimy stings and never as a powder, unless disturbed (shaken) violently. The fall out may be immediate and prolonged, as the many nucleation sites allow continued degradation. Very operator and process dependent (and phase of the moon). Fred: I think you explained very well my main complaint with this very popular and related LVDC CS methods. Yes, and it would also apply to the weird science HVAC process, which sadly none of the inventors or re-discoverers can explain - just claiming it is better! Those that use batteries often report crystal clear product, when the batteries are dead! (Really, I heard it reported a few times - one kind soul even offered to provide a time to replace battery email service.) The some what popular reversing polarity process prevents the stringers and tends to blow the reduced ions off the negative electrode and they will in time settle as a dark powder. Looks a lot better tho' and could be a better product if done right. Fred: Yes, we hear that key phrase again, if done right. Seems to fit everything in life - they all have a right and wrong way - only the individual can make that choice. I chose LVDC and you HVAC! I expect it is closer to a HV setup - more atoms then ions - but can not count them! The better approach of very light circulation prevents crystal growth and or stringers but there are often a few curls of reduced ion growth that will fall from the negative and settle immediately to the bottom. We just decant, to avoid it. Fred: Ah, but can you be sure you don't have large clusters remaining, ready to flocculate into larger units (and drop out) tomorrow, in two weeks, two months ...? I got LVDC Cs! Would 18 month old product with no settlement or reduction in TDS satisfy you! Those that like power and use excessive circulation will produce results the same as polarity reversals, ripping reduced ions free. The problems are much worse (and more often posted) with small area electrodes (wire) vs. wide strips or bars. A critical element, ignored by most, is the need to keep the current density low - stringers of course totally defeat that goal and crystal growth accelerates with higher current density. Fred: Practically speaking, how many non-engineers or non-scientifically bent LVDC CS makers will appreciate this excellent point? How many reading your comments really know what you are talking about? How many are swallowing a poor product right now that may not only have inferior bioavailability, but could constitute some longer term health risk? Do your own annoying surveys, it is too hot in my kitchen! I do believe only the substance abusers (Cs by the quart or wacky unknown 500PPM stuff) risk their health from inferior product but I have stronger concerns about the still unknown HVAC product, especially the depressed pH type, as more then water and silver enter into the currently unexplained formula! I am glad you use only 1PPM, so we can continue this friendly fireside chat. That is another of the defects I see in the HV process - a high probability of kicking few ions off, mostly discrete particles! Fred: Then how do you explain the potency of my HVAC CS brew at ~ 1 PPM ? (and don't change the subject about health risk when you have nothing but speculation to fall back on.) Truthfully, I can not explain something I have not seen - do you have a web site or list of user successes I could place a value judgement on? Mine is at: http://www.health2us.com/stories.htm. Your court! Roger
CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
Alvin said: Did anyone visit Bruce Marx's web site at http://colloidal.hypermart.net another great claim of superior C/S and why we shouldn't use the LVDC process...Is it BS or not? -- Well, I had not visited his site for years so I decided to review it for you Alvin - below are some questionable statements of his: (This is not a personal attack, text is taken in context from his widely published comparison of the LV and HVAC processes. My comments are in blue!) Bruce Marx is an N.D., a licensed Chief Engineer (CSPRO) He is the originator of the HVAC process (Many will argue that, unless Bruce is very, very old! Roger said HE re invented it 100 years too late!) There is constant reference to the 'yellow' or 'golden' color. As mentioned in the description of the DC process, this color is a result of the silver 'tarnishing'. (The accepted opinion is the particle size determines the color - below he oddly says the tarnishing makes it heavy and causes very short life due to settlement?) Colloidal silver produced by the HVAC process is pure, clean and clear...Particle size is between .002 to .007-9 micron, yielding 100% 'Bio-Availability' (Most of us are concerned about what contaminates in HVAC Cs cause the very low pH , so pure or clean is still questionable!) The flow of the current from the positive (anode) to the negative (cathode) causes minute particles of silver to release. Many particles will immediately oxidize and adhere to the negative electrode as a black residue (silver oxides), (The general opinion is they are atoms (reduced ions) and form weak, irregular crystal growths and thus the dark color.) Low voltage DC colloidal silver has a limited 'shelf life'. Due to the continuing oxidation of the suspended particles, the solution will turn to a yellow or golden color. During production, the particles are given a positive electrical charge. This keeps them in suspension by the principle of 'Brownian Motion'. The charge dissipates slowly. The increased weight caused by the build-up of oxidation, causes the particles to collide and, finally, with their charges weakening, settle to the bottom of the container. His recently updated main site says LVDC Cs has a shelf life of only 2 days to 2 weeks! (Most of this sounds really hoaky and many of us have stable samples of LVDC Cs well over a year old, to prove it!) Generally, the higher the operating voltage of the process, the more 'consistently small' the particles produced. Therefore, as the voltage goes up, so does the percent of 'Bio-Availability'. At 180 volts DC, the 'Bio-Availability' is over 80%, and at 10,000 volts AC, the 'Bio-Availability' is 100%. (he claims only 30% Bio with 27 VDC - in my book, ions or atoms of silver come in only one size and only a poor process will allow crystal growth or larger particles. His photo claiming particles of 0.001 to 0.008 um is of a 6-10um cluster or particle, so which is he flawing?) Also, his general approach (marketing) is a scare tactic - the FDA will shut us all down - you need to be prepared in your shelter with 600 Watt backup generators to run his unit - etc. rather then the classic promotion of - has many benefits for you! As some would say, Where is the proof?, there are no links or references cited to support any of his views. In fairness, I must say his technical data (on both sites I viewed) is a news article he had published on 2/30/96, but on the other hand, the web pages were updated recently so I must assume these weird science views are still his! I would rate him pretty low Alvin! (Slap me if you disagree!) P.S. If you find any hoaky/outdated stuff on my site, let me know and I will change/update it! We all learn as we grow, but Bruce has been painted as the originator and thus the expert! A few on the list will defend him at any cost - such is dedication! He certainly appears to make more money then us all, so maybe like Bill Gates he can say anything we wants to! f...@health2us.com
RE: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
(Most of this sounds really hoaky and many of us have stable samples of LVDC Cs well over a year old, to prove it!) Ionic, dissolved silver will be indefinitely stable too, providing the water does not provide reactants. James Osbourne Holmes a...@trail.com FTNWO -Original Message- From: Fred [SMTP:f...@health2us.com] Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2000 10:50 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject:CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS File: ATT5.htm Alvin said: Did anyone visit Bruce Marx's web site at http://colloidal.hypermart.net another great claim of superior C/S and why we shouldn't use the LVDC process...Is it BS or not? -- Well, I had not visited his site for years so I decided to review it for you Alvin - below are some questionable statements of his: (This is not a personal attack, text is taken in context from his widely published comparison of the LV and HVAC processes. My comments are in blue!) Bruce Marx is an N.D., a licensed Chief Engineer (CSPRO) He is the originator of the HVAC process (Many will argue that, unless Bruce is very, very old! Roger said HE re invented it 100 years too late!) There is constant reference to the 'yellow' or 'golden' color. As mentioned in the description of the DC process, this color is a result of the silver 'tarnishing'. (The accepted opinion is the particle size determines the color - below he oddly says the tarnishing makes it heavy and causes very short life due to settlement?) Colloidal silver produced by the HVAC process is pure, clean and clear...Particle size is between .002 to .007-9 micron, yielding 100% 'Bio-Availability' (Most of us are concerned about what contaminates in HVAC Cs cause the very low pH , so pure or clean is still questionable!) The flow of the current from the positive (anode) to the negative (cathode) causes minute particles of silver to release. Many particles will immediately oxidize and adhere to the negative electrode as a black residue (silver oxides), (The general opinion is they are atoms (reduced ions) and form weak, irregular crystal growths and thus the dark color.) Low voltage DC colloidal silver has a limited 'shelf life'. Due to the continuing oxidation of the suspended particles, the solution will turn to a yellow or golden color. During production, the particles are given a positive electrical charge. This keeps them in suspension by the principle of 'Brownian Motion'. The charge dissipates slowly. The increased weight caused by the build-up of oxidation, causes the particles to collide and, finally, with their charges weakening, settle to the bottom of the container. His recently updated main site says LVDC Cs has a shelf life of only 2 days to 2 weeks! (Most of this sounds really hoaky and many of us have stable samples of LVDC Cs well over a year old, to prove it!) Generally, the higher the operating voltage of the process, the more 'consistently small' the particles produced. Therefore, as the voltage goes up, so does the percent of 'Bio-Availability'. At 180 volts DC, the 'Bio-Availability' is over 80%, and at 10,000 volts AC, the 'Bio-Availability' is 100%. (he claims only 30% Bio with 27 VDC - in my book, ions or atoms of silver come in only one size and only a poor process will allow crystal growth or larger particles. His photo claiming particles of 0.001 to 0.008 um is of a 6-10um cluster or particle, so which is he flawing?) Also, his general approach (marketing) is a scare tactic - the FDA will shut us all down - you need to be prepared in your shelter with 600 Watt backup generators to run his unit - etc. rather then the classic promotion of - has many benefits for you! As some would say, Where is the proof?, there are no links or references cited to support any of his views. In fairness, I must say his technical data (on both sites I viewed) is a news article he had published on 2/30/96, but on the other hand, the web pages were updated recently so I must assume these weird science views are still his! I would rate him pretty low Alvin! (Slap me if you disagree!) P.S. If you find any hoaky/outdated stuff on my site, let me know and I will change/update it! We all learn as we grow, but Bruce has been painted as the originator and thus the expert! A few on the list will defend him at any cost - such is dedication! He certainly appears to make more money then us all, so maybe like Bill Gates he can say anything we wants to! f...@health2us.com -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
Fred wrote: On Bruce Marx's site: There is constant reference to the 'yellow' or 'golden' color. As mentioned in the description of the DC process, this color is a result of the silver 'tarnishing'. (The accepted opinion is the particle size determines the color - below he oddly says the tarnishing makes it heavy and causes very short life due to settlement?) Yes, this is absolutely wrong. Tarnish is caused by reaction with sulfur. There is NO sulfur present in any of the processes. Colloidal silver produced by the HVAC process is pure, clean and clear...Particle size is between .002 to .007-9 micron, yielding 100% 'Bio-Availability' (Most of us are concerned about what contaminates in HVAC Cs cause the very low pH , so pure or clean is still questionable!) Is his HVAC CS low ph? Mine is essentially the same as the distilled water was that I started with, about 7. The flow of the current from the positive (anode) to the negative (cathode) causes minute particles of silver to release. Many particles will immediately oxidize and adhere to the negative electrode as a black residue (silver oxides), (The general opinion is they are atoms (reduced ions) and form weak, irregular crystal growths and thus the dark color.) Silver does not easily combine with oxygen, ie. O2. At the cathode O is formed which is very reactive and may to some extent produce silver oxide. I believe it is likely a combination of both silver particles and silver oxide on the cathode. Low voltage DC colloidal silver has a limited 'shelf life'. Due to the continuing oxidation of the suspended particles, the solution will turn to a yellow or golden color. That is wrong, silver does not react with O2 under normal conditions, plus silver oxide is not yellow, it is black. Marshall
Re: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
In a message dated 6/19/00 11:39:31 AM EST, f...@health2us.com writes: Alvin said: Did anyone visit Bruce Marx's web site at http://colloidal.hypermart.net another great claim of superior C/S and why we shouldn't use the LVDC process...Is it BS or not? -- Well, I had not visited his site for years so I decided to review it for you Alvin - below are some questionable statements of his: (This is not a personal attack, text is taken in context from his widely published comparison of the LV and HVAC processes. My comments are in blue!) Bruce Marx is an N.D., a licensed Chief Engineer (CSPRO) He is the originator of the HVAC process (Many will argue that, unless Bruce is very, very old! Roger said HE re invented it 100 years too late!) Fred: Here goes picky me again, but this time I'll try to be more civil. First, I think David Ripley was marketing an HVAC CS machine before Bruce. Second, I never claimed I invented anything. I believe, if you'll check the record, I said I rediscovered the sputtered form of the HVAC CS process 100 years too late. Small detail perhaps, but you'll find the devil hidden in many mistaken/omitted details. There is constant reference to the 'yellow' or 'golden' color. As mentioned in the description of the DC process, this color is a result of the silver 'tarnishing'. (The accepted opinion is the particle size determines the color - below he oddly says the tarnishing makes it heavy and causes very short life due to settlement?) Colloidal silver produced by the HVAC process is pure, clean and clear...Particle size is between .002 to .007-9 micron, yielding 100% 'Bio-Availability' (Most of us are concerned about what contaminates in HVAC Cs cause the very low pH , so pure or clean is still questionable!) The flow of the current from the positive (anode) to the negative (cathode) causes minute particles of silver to release. Many particles will immediately oxidize and adhere to the negative electrode as a black residue (silver oxides), (The general opinion is they are atoms (reduced ions) and form weak, irregular crystal growths and thus the dark color.) Low voltage DC colloidal silver has a limited 'shelf life'. Due to the continuing oxidation of the suspended particles, the solution will turn to a yellow or golden color. During production, the particles are given a positive electrical charge. This keeps them in suspension by the principle of 'Brownian Motion'. The charge dissipates slowly. The increased weight caused by the build-up of oxidation, causes the particles to collide and, finally, with their charges weakening, settle to the bottom of the container. His recently updated main site says LVDC Cs has a shelf life of only 2 days to 2 weeks! (Most of this sounds really hoaky and many of us have stable samples of LVDC Cs well over a year old, to prove it!) Fred: I was wondering of the people who produce LVDC CS, what percentage of the time do they see a degradation (deeper color, black silver powder dropping out, etc.) of their product over time? Perhaps, Fred, you'd like to carry the ball on this one by repeating this question every time you post something. Respectfully, Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
Difficult to understand your question. Marx have never said that LVDC is bad. Only that some processes produce a lot of junk and large particles. In fact, he manufactures and sells a variety of LVDC devices himself. Look again. James Osbourne Holmes a...@trail.com FTNWO -Original Message- From: Alvin Rose [SMTP:ar...@nf.sympatico.ca] Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 11:56 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject:CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS Did anyone visit Bruce Marx's web site at http://colloidal.hypermart.net another great claim of superior C/S and why we shouldn't use the LVDC process...Is it BS or not? -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CSBruce Marx Web Site C/S or BS
Did anyone visit Bruce Marx's web site at http://colloidal.hypermart.net another great claim of superior C/S and why we shouldn't use the LVDC process...Is it BS or not? -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
